1
00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:03,680
Both has Arnold and cathode. 
How can solid-state addresser 

2
00:00:03,680 --> 00:00:06,800
maybe what can it not address? 
In the past, in 50 years, and 

3
00:00:06,800 --> 00:00:09,520
there are lots of improvements. 
One of the most important issues

4
00:00:12,080 --> 00:00:14,400
scientific challenges of the 
solid-state battery. 

5
00:00:14,440 --> 00:00:16,000
What will be the price point of 
that? 

6
00:00:16,000 --> 00:00:17,360
How competitive for the 
batteries? 

7
00:00:17,360 --> 00:00:22,720
Performance with performance. 
What's happening in this space 

8
00:00:22,840 --> 00:00:24,560
right now? 
Before we get started with 

9
00:00:24,560 --> 00:00:28,040
today's episode of this Battery 
Insiders podcast, I want to let 

10
00:00:28,040 --> 00:00:31,240
you know that we have another 
Battery MBA cohort starting in 

11
00:00:31,240 --> 00:00:33,560
January. 
You can still apply for till the

12
00:00:33,560 --> 00:00:36,880
18th of December, hopefully. 
See many of you there. 

13
00:00:37,480 --> 00:00:39,400
Welcome, everyone. 
Thank you so much for joining us

14
00:00:39,400 --> 00:00:41,960
for the Battery Insiders podcast
here live from the Future 

15
00:00:41,960 --> 00:00:44,880
Battery Forum in Berlin. 
And yeah, I'm very excited 

16
00:00:44,880 --> 00:00:45,960
today. 
Have a discussion about 

17
00:00:45,960 --> 00:00:49,640
solid-state batteries and have 
with me today Doctor Chi Do, who

18
00:00:49,640 --> 00:00:52,800
is the Co founder and CEO of 
HITA and very excited to have 

19
00:00:52,800 --> 00:00:54,200
you here. 
And we want to talk about the 

20
00:00:54,200 --> 00:00:56,880
latest state-of-the-art in 
solid-state and get a bit of an 

21
00:00:56,880 --> 00:01:00,160
overview also kind of what's 
happening in this space right 

22
00:01:00,160 --> 00:01:03,040
now. 
So maybe to start to kind of go 

23
00:01:03,040 --> 00:01:05,640
right to it kind of if you could
start by giving us a bit of an 

24
00:01:05,640 --> 00:01:08,200
overview of the current 
landscape of solid-state 

25
00:01:08,200 --> 00:01:10,000
batteries and how this industry 
is evolving. 

26
00:01:10,680 --> 00:01:13,440
Thank you, Simon and thank you 
for the Battery Associates to 

27
00:01:13,440 --> 00:01:16,200
having me to here to join this 
podcast. 

28
00:01:16,720 --> 00:01:20,080
And for the solid-state battery,
basically this is not something 

29
00:01:20,080 --> 00:01:24,560
new since the 1970s and there is
already polymer based 

30
00:01:24,600 --> 00:01:27,920
solid-state battery reported 
from scientific journals. 

31
00:01:28,480 --> 00:01:32,040
And in the past, you know, 50 
years and there are lots of 

32
00:01:32,040 --> 00:01:35,680
improvements. 
And regarding this inorganic 

33
00:01:36,040 --> 00:01:39,320
solid-state battery technology 
route, basically it also started

34
00:01:39,320 --> 00:01:42,280
more than 30 years ago and they 
started from Toyota. 

35
00:01:42,520 --> 00:01:46,160
And then in the late 90s, they 
started the research in the 

36
00:01:46,160 --> 00:01:50,400
field of oxide and sulfide 
electrolyte until today, 

37
00:01:50,400 --> 00:01:54,680
especially in the past couple of
years and given the energy 

38
00:01:54,680 --> 00:01:57,760
transition mega trend and the 
people are looking for more and 

39
00:01:57,760 --> 00:02:01,560
more different energy storage 
solutions and the solid-state 

40
00:02:01,600 --> 00:02:05,040
battery because it has its 
advantage in the energy density 

41
00:02:05,360 --> 00:02:08,680
as well as the safety profile 
and they attract lots of 

42
00:02:08,680 --> 00:02:11,720
attention. 
And for example, in US and in 

43
00:02:12,080 --> 00:02:15,160
Europe, there are lots of 
startups from the spin off of 

44
00:02:15,160 --> 00:02:19,120
the research institution and 
from let's say in China. 

45
00:02:19,360 --> 00:02:22,960
And there are lots of player, 
big players in the recent years 

46
00:02:22,960 --> 00:02:25,960
and started to make it a semi 
solid-state batteries. 

47
00:02:26,840 --> 00:02:28,360
Great. 
And maybe we could share a bit 

48
00:02:28,360 --> 00:02:30,400
more about now, what's the 
difference, right, Because if 

49
00:02:30,400 --> 00:02:33,160
you have liquid based lithium 
ion batteries and then 

50
00:02:33,160 --> 00:02:35,480
solid-state batteries. 
So if you maybe can walk us a 

51
00:02:35,480 --> 00:02:37,560
little through like what's the 
difference and maybe some of the

52
00:02:37,560 --> 00:02:40,440
similarities as well for these 
kind of different technologies 

53
00:02:40,440 --> 00:02:42,520
from the structure, 
functionality, mechanisms, 

54
00:02:42,520 --> 00:02:43,800
etcetera? 
Thank you. 

55
00:02:44,240 --> 00:02:46,920
Basically, it's a function of 
the solid-state battery and the 

56
00:02:46,920 --> 00:02:51,160
liquid lithium ion battery is 
the same and both has Arnold and

57
00:02:51,160 --> 00:02:54,560
the cathode and the electrolyte 
basically functionalize the 

58
00:02:54,560 --> 00:02:57,600
carrier of the lithium ions to 
realize the charging, 

59
00:02:57,600 --> 00:02:58,320
discharging. 
Yeah. 

60
00:02:58,720 --> 00:03:01,400
The main distinction between 
these two is that for the 

61
00:03:01,400 --> 00:03:04,920
solid-state battery, because 
it's material innovation, it 

62
00:03:04,920 --> 00:03:08,280
could achieve potentially very 
high energy density because you 

63
00:03:08,280 --> 00:03:12,680
can design molecular structures 
and also make it to withstand 

64
00:03:12,720 --> 00:03:16,400
much broad electrochemical 
windows and so that you can have

65
00:03:16,400 --> 00:03:20,040
more active electrodes. 
And also from the say safety 

66
00:03:20,040 --> 00:03:24,080
perspective and because you are 
using the non proton 

67
00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:29,040
electrolyte, it could for 
animate the root cause of the 

68
00:03:29,160 --> 00:03:33,120
the the fair hazards of the 
liquid electrolytes. 

69
00:03:33,280 --> 00:03:34,920
Yeah, basically they see the 
main difference. 

70
00:03:34,960 --> 00:03:38,320
Therefore, people regard 
solid-state battery as next 

71
00:03:38,320 --> 00:03:41,120
generation of tech battery 
technology because it can 

72
00:03:41,120 --> 00:03:44,960
achieve much higher energy 
density and plus more as a safe.

73
00:03:45,560 --> 00:03:47,240
Yeah. 
And also kind of to distinguish,

74
00:03:47,240 --> 00:03:49,160
right, because I think you 
mentioned semi solid-state 

75
00:03:49,160 --> 00:03:51,360
before as well. 
So there's some hybrids because 

76
00:03:51,360 --> 00:03:54,760
often people only talk about 
liquid, right, and then they 

77
00:03:54,760 --> 00:03:57,080
talk about solid, but there's 
actually also things in between.

78
00:03:57,440 --> 00:03:59,120
If you could share a bit more 
about this like. 

79
00:03:59,320 --> 00:04:02,240
Well, basically this comes to 
let's say the scientific 

80
00:04:02,240 --> 00:04:04,120
challenges of the solid-state 
battery. 

81
00:04:04,440 --> 00:04:08,360
As I mentioned previously from 
let's say early, early 70s and 

82
00:04:08,360 --> 00:04:11,360
the people has already started 
to work on solid-state battery. 

83
00:04:11,600 --> 00:04:15,040
But why until today and there is
only, not too many, I would say 

84
00:04:15,040 --> 00:04:20,560
only one based on the polyester,
polyester oxide material which 

85
00:04:20,560 --> 00:04:23,400
realized commercialized 
application. 

86
00:04:23,400 --> 00:04:26,480
Yeah. 
And the the challenge is that in

87
00:04:26,480 --> 00:04:29,400
the solid-state battery, the 
lithium ions transports through 

88
00:04:29,400 --> 00:04:32,960
the three solid phase, it's 
cathode, anode and the 

89
00:04:32,960 --> 00:04:37,200
electrolyte especially there are
another additional 2 solid, 

90
00:04:37,240 --> 00:04:40,680
solid interface. 
So in the solid interface and 

91
00:04:40,840 --> 00:04:44,120
there are lots of problems, 
yeah, because there are mainly 

92
00:04:44,120 --> 00:04:48,120
there's a four type of battery 
failures in the solid-state 

93
00:04:48,120 --> 00:04:52,320
battery for example, like 
charge, charge, charge, sorry, 

94
00:04:53,600 --> 00:04:57,800
space charge separation and 
element interfusion and biology 

95
00:04:57,800 --> 00:05:01,560
interface reaction and plus the 
electrochemical, mechanical, 

96
00:05:01,680 --> 00:05:04,760
mechanical deformation. 
Yeah, just take one example. 

97
00:05:04,760 --> 00:05:08,560
The last one, the mechanical 
deformation is pretty similar to

98
00:05:08,560 --> 00:05:11,760
the some expansion of the solid.
When the temperature changes, 

99
00:05:11,760 --> 00:05:14,920
its volume also changes. 
But in the battery when the 

100
00:05:15,080 --> 00:05:19,600
cycling starts, the volume of 
the electrolyte also changes and

101
00:05:19,600 --> 00:05:23,560
this leads to lots of voids, 
cracks between the electrode 

102
00:05:23,600 --> 00:05:27,160
surface and the electrolyte 
electrolyte surface. 

103
00:05:27,640 --> 00:05:30,440
And this void will leads to the 
growth of dendrite. 

104
00:05:30,840 --> 00:05:33,600
And in order to mitigate this 
problem, people are adding 

105
00:05:33,600 --> 00:05:35,880
different materials. 
For example, in the early days 

106
00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:40,360
people add the nanoparticles and
for the hybrid or semi 

107
00:05:40,360 --> 00:05:43,800
solid-state batteries, they are 
adding some liquid electrolytes.

108
00:05:44,160 --> 00:05:48,000
And in order to mitigate this 
issue, this is how and where the

109
00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:52,960
semi solid-state battery or 
hybrid solid-state battery come 

110
00:05:52,960 --> 00:05:54,640
from. 
Amazing. 

111
00:05:55,200 --> 00:05:57,160
Then also to understand a bit 
about because we already touched

112
00:05:57,160 --> 00:06:00,960
on this, right, also I think the
topic of safety, right, kind of 

113
00:06:00,960 --> 00:06:02,240
between these different 
technologies. 

114
00:06:02,240 --> 00:06:04,840
And again, if you could share a 
bit more about like, you know, 

115
00:06:04,840 --> 00:06:07,720
how can solid-state address it 
or maybe what can it not address

116
00:06:08,160 --> 00:06:09,800
of the safety, maybe we can 
share it more about the 

117
00:06:10,240 --> 00:06:12,000
opportunities in that regard. 
My pleasure. 

118
00:06:12,000 --> 00:06:15,360
Yeah, basically regarding the 
safety, I think this is if this 

119
00:06:15,360 --> 00:06:18,680
is not the only one most 
important, but it must be one of

120
00:06:18,680 --> 00:06:21,800
the most important issue 
regarding to underpin the energy

121
00:06:21,800 --> 00:06:24,280
transition. 
Because the battery itself is a 

122
00:06:24,360 --> 00:06:27,680
electrochemical reactions. 
It happens always and it carries

123
00:06:27,680 --> 00:06:31,400
energy and but when we use it in
our daily life and I think more 

124
00:06:31,400 --> 00:06:34,840
and more like a fair hazard 
people see in the in nowadays. 

125
00:06:35,320 --> 00:06:39,360
And let's look at the intrinsic 
root cause of the summer 

126
00:06:39,360 --> 00:06:41,240
runaway. 
I see explosion of the liquid 

127
00:06:41,440 --> 00:06:42,880
electrolyte. 
What happened there? 

128
00:06:43,280 --> 00:06:46,800
Basically, from the very first 
cycling of the liquid Electro 

129
00:06:47,240 --> 00:06:52,600
liquid lism ion battery and in 
the R node, the lithium atoms 

130
00:06:52,720 --> 00:06:54,680
will release. 
One of the electrons became 

131
00:06:54,680 --> 00:06:58,560
lithium ion and then when it's 
charged and then the lithium 

132
00:06:58,600 --> 00:07:01,000
ions scatter, the electron 
became lithium atom. 

133
00:07:01,360 --> 00:07:03,400
Lithium atom is very, very 
active. 

134
00:07:03,720 --> 00:07:08,240
It react with the liquid 
electrolyte to form lithium 

135
00:07:08,240 --> 00:07:10,480
hydride. 
And this lithium hydride, the 

136
00:07:10,480 --> 00:07:13,440
hydrogen is very active. 
It's -1 valence. 

137
00:07:13,720 --> 00:07:18,120
It reacts nearly everything 
containing hydrogen to continue 

138
00:07:18,120 --> 00:07:21,040
proton to form the hydrogen. 
You can consider it as kind of a

139
00:07:21,080 --> 00:07:22,960
hydrogen reservoir. 
Yeah. 

140
00:07:23,320 --> 00:07:26,560
And also in the battery 
industry, people know that each 

141
00:07:26,560 --> 00:07:29,760
of you when the our battery 
start work before the work, it 

142
00:07:29,800 --> 00:07:33,880
forms and deforms the SEI 
layers, interface layers. 

143
00:07:34,280 --> 00:07:37,360
And this layer basically is a 
decomposition and also the 

144
00:07:37,360 --> 00:07:42,200
formation of the, the the 
lithium assaults and our liquid 

145
00:07:42,200 --> 00:07:46,800
electrolyte, organic liquid 
electrolyte and will decompose, 

146
00:07:47,120 --> 00:07:50,760
it will decompose into carbon 
monoxide, methane, ethylene, 

147
00:07:50,840 --> 00:07:53,680
Acetylene and all these are 
explosive substance. 

148
00:07:54,160 --> 00:07:57,280
And therefore when our battery 
get self heated to set the 

149
00:07:57,280 --> 00:08:01,160
temperature normally around 200 
Celsius degree, the cancelled 

150
00:08:01,160 --> 00:08:03,320
material start to release 
oxygen. 

151
00:08:04,200 --> 00:08:07,800
Look what we have in our system,
we have hydrogen, we have carbon

152
00:08:07,800 --> 00:08:11,800
monoxide, we have methylene, 
ethylene and Acetylene plus 

153
00:08:11,920 --> 00:08:17,440
oxygen and high temperature. 
And I say behind the stage, the 

154
00:08:17,440 --> 00:08:20,760
summer runaway, the fair headers
of the battery, that is 

155
00:08:21,160 --> 00:08:24,320
explosive reaction. 
Yeah, this is what makes the 

156
00:08:24,360 --> 00:08:27,440
liquid lithium ion battery 
dangerous. 

157
00:08:27,440 --> 00:08:29,520
Yeah. 
For the solid-state battery, the

158
00:08:29,520 --> 00:08:32,760
advantage is that, for example, 
if we use inorganic one like 

159
00:08:32,880 --> 00:08:36,799
oxide or sulfide, there it does 
not contain hydrogen. 

160
00:08:37,039 --> 00:08:40,240
Therefore, the very first step, 
the formation of the lithium 

161
00:08:40,240 --> 00:08:44,280
hydride, basically it is a 
eliminate in the polymer based 

162
00:08:44,280 --> 00:08:47,400
electrolyte. 
Because the interface is a solid

163
00:08:47,400 --> 00:08:50,920
and solid, this kind of side 
reaction happens very slow. 

164
00:08:51,240 --> 00:08:55,120
We can also design the polymer 
electrolyte with containing less

165
00:08:55,440 --> 00:08:58,360
or even less in non proton. 
Of course, this is kind of a 

166
00:08:58,680 --> 00:09:02,040
target in the future. 
By this way you improve the 

167
00:09:02,040 --> 00:09:05,880
intrinsic safety of the battery.
Very good. 

168
00:09:06,280 --> 00:09:08,160
And of course, on the other hand
though, I think one thing, it's 

169
00:09:08,160 --> 00:09:10,080
still very energy dense, right, 
like a battery. 

170
00:09:10,480 --> 00:09:12,760
So I think, yeah, that's there's
still energy in there, right, 

171
00:09:12,760 --> 00:09:14,560
which can be released. 
But I think as you said, it's an

172
00:09:14,560 --> 00:09:15,920
interesting approach. 
On the safety. 

173
00:09:17,120 --> 00:09:18,880
Another topic which I think a 
lot of people think about is 

174
00:09:18,880 --> 00:09:21,440
cost, right? 
I think especially for yeah, I 

175
00:09:21,440 --> 00:09:23,520
mean all kinds of applications 
again like you know having seen 

176
00:09:23,520 --> 00:09:26,160
this drastic cost reduction or 
lithium ion batteries or liquid 

177
00:09:26,160 --> 00:09:30,280
based lithium ion batteries 
really has enabled it for many 

178
00:09:30,280 --> 00:09:32,800
applications, right. 
And I think now the question has

179
00:09:32,800 --> 00:09:35,920
been with solid-state also what 
will be the price point of that?

180
00:09:35,920 --> 00:09:37,880
How competitive will it be? 
Will it become cheaper? 

181
00:09:37,880 --> 00:09:41,400
Will be more expensive? 
Niche might adopt it? 

182
00:09:41,400 --> 00:09:44,040
Maybe could share it more about 
the some of your assumptions in 

183
00:09:44,040 --> 00:09:46,360
that regard. 
Yeah, basically from the cost 

184
00:09:46,360 --> 00:09:50,360
perspective, and we can, let's 
say, many 2 cost drivers. 

185
00:09:50,440 --> 00:09:54,280
First is from material itself, 
second one is from the operation

186
00:09:54,680 --> 00:09:58,240
and manufacturing process. 
And if we look at this also 

187
00:09:58,240 --> 00:10:02,120
depends on the battery, solar 
state, battery technology roots 

188
00:10:02,440 --> 00:10:06,240
for example like the oxide and 
the Cyrophide 1 and this kind of

189
00:10:06,240 --> 00:10:08,720
material. 
And normally for example, like 

190
00:10:08,760 --> 00:10:12,040
take one example, like the oxide
one, it requires normally high 

191
00:10:12,040 --> 00:10:15,480
temperature in order to form 
this kind of ceramic inorganic 

192
00:10:15,480 --> 00:10:18,120
structure. 
It's a very energy consumption 

193
00:10:18,240 --> 00:10:22,240
condensed one for the scarfied 1
is very sensitive to the oxygen 

194
00:10:22,240 --> 00:10:24,080
and moisture. 
You need this clean room. 

195
00:10:24,280 --> 00:10:27,640
But for both the technology 
route, there is no supply chain.

196
00:10:27,720 --> 00:10:31,040
I say build up yet and all the 
manufacturing facility 

197
00:10:31,240 --> 00:10:35,120
equipments needed to be rebuilt,
this will be very capital 

198
00:10:35,120 --> 00:10:36,400
intensive. 
Yeah. 

199
00:10:36,440 --> 00:10:40,280
But for the polymer one, this is
it has the advantage of the in 

200
00:10:40,280 --> 00:10:43,800
terms of the raw materials 
because it's organic one, there 

201
00:10:43,800 --> 00:10:46,560
is no that's a rare metal or as 
expensive materials. 

202
00:10:46,920 --> 00:10:50,320
Pretty similar would be like in 
the liquid Electro liquid 

203
00:10:50,560 --> 00:10:52,760
lithium ion battery. 
Because for the liquid 

204
00:10:52,880 --> 00:10:56,520
electrolyte in the past 30 years
since it's a commercialization, 

205
00:10:56,720 --> 00:11:00,880
the cost of the liquid lithium 
ion battery has the electrolyte 

206
00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:03,680
has dropped 97%. 
Yeah. 

207
00:11:03,880 --> 00:11:07,800
Could you imagine 97% thanks to 
the economy of scale. 

208
00:11:08,080 --> 00:11:10,840
Therefore for the polymer ones, 
it does not have this kind of 

209
00:11:10,840 --> 00:11:14,000
raw material as concerns. 
I believe that later on when the

210
00:11:14,000 --> 00:11:16,720
scale build up and then the cost
would be less, it dropped 

211
00:11:16,720 --> 00:11:20,720
sharply, pretty much like the 
liquid electrolyte in the past. 

212
00:11:21,120 --> 00:11:24,440
And in terms of the 
manufacturing of a process, the 

213
00:11:24,440 --> 00:11:27,520
polymer because it's soft and 
therefore it's largely 

214
00:11:27,520 --> 00:11:31,120
compatible with conventional 
liquid LISM ion battery. 

215
00:11:31,400 --> 00:11:33,880
Therefore we don't need to 
rebuild the overall supply 

216
00:11:33,880 --> 00:11:36,120
chain. 
For example, in our technology 

217
00:11:36,440 --> 00:11:39,440
and 80% of manufacturing process
is compatible. 

218
00:11:39,480 --> 00:11:42,160
It's the same with the 
conventional liquid one and we 

219
00:11:42,160 --> 00:11:46,160
only have like around 20% which 
we apply the special step to 

220
00:11:46,160 --> 00:11:49,280
make the polymer electrolyte. 
Maybe we could share about this 

221
00:11:49,280 --> 00:11:50,840
20%. 
So what are the differences 

222
00:11:50,840 --> 00:11:54,960
between another process? 
This is for example in the 

223
00:11:54,960 --> 00:11:58,480
liquid electrolyte and the few 
in the liquid electrolyte, but 

224
00:11:58,520 --> 00:12:02,120
in our technology and our 
technology is in situ 

225
00:12:02,120 --> 00:12:06,000
polymerization, what we inject 
in there, that is precursor of 

226
00:12:06,000 --> 00:12:08,640
the polymer. 
In other words that precursor 

227
00:12:08,720 --> 00:12:13,040
plus its additives and also the 
some complex salts and it's kind

228
00:12:13,080 --> 00:12:16,360
of eutectic liquid. 
Yeah, we inject this one and 

229
00:12:16,400 --> 00:12:20,640
then we leave the warm it up 
around like say merit the 

230
00:12:20,720 --> 00:12:23,080
temperature, elevated 
temperature, it will start 

231
00:12:23,080 --> 00:12:25,160
polymerization. 
Yeah, only this step is 

232
00:12:25,160 --> 00:12:26,640
different. 
OK. 

233
00:12:26,640 --> 00:12:29,160
And then this polymer you 
mentioned like because I mean, I

234
00:12:29,160 --> 00:12:32,840
guess some people maybe argue 
like it's a polymer, a solid and

235
00:12:32,840 --> 00:12:36,200
it's not as liquid, right? 
But I think kind of like so it's

236
00:12:36,200 --> 00:12:38,640
this kind of in between, right? 
Like in some say maybe ceramic 

237
00:12:38,640 --> 00:12:41,400
only or this. 
But I think you you say you get 

238
00:12:41,400 --> 00:12:43,800
the best of both worlds, I 
assume from this, like you still

239
00:12:43,800 --> 00:12:47,640
don't have a liquid, but you 
still have semi solid or it's a 

240
00:12:47,640 --> 00:12:48,680
polymer for you. 
Is it? 

241
00:12:49,760 --> 00:12:52,040
I think this really depends on 
molecular weight, right? 

242
00:12:52,360 --> 00:12:55,400
And for the liquid one, it has a
small molecular weight and for 

243
00:12:55,400 --> 00:12:59,160
the polymer one, let's say the 
small molecular grow up with a 

244
00:12:59,160 --> 00:13:01,200
higher molecular weight, it 
became solid. 

245
00:13:01,480 --> 00:13:04,600
I think there is a very, very 
important concept. 

246
00:13:04,600 --> 00:13:10,200
Differentiation is that people 
sometimes regards the polymer 

247
00:13:10,280 --> 00:13:12,440
with the gel, but it's 
different. 

248
00:13:12,680 --> 00:13:15,320
The gear is that you have the 
polymer chains, which is long, 

249
00:13:15,640 --> 00:13:19,280
it entangles each other to form 
the three-dimensional voice. 

250
00:13:19,520 --> 00:13:22,200
It tracks the solvents, the 
liquid inside. 

251
00:13:22,440 --> 00:13:25,120
Therefore, when you heat it up 
or let's say adjust its pitch 

252
00:13:25,120 --> 00:13:29,960
value, acidity or acidity and 
then it will release the liquid.

253
00:13:30,360 --> 00:13:32,760
But for polymer, it's just a 
soft, Yeah. 

254
00:13:32,880 --> 00:13:36,120
When you heat it up, it's still,
I say it's a solid and it may be

255
00:13:36,120 --> 00:13:37,880
merit, but it's another story, 
right? 

256
00:13:38,240 --> 00:13:41,360
But when you there's no, I say 
small molecular to release from 

257
00:13:41,360 --> 00:13:42,600
your system, yeah. 
OK. 

258
00:13:42,720 --> 00:13:46,160
That's interesting. 
And then kind of a bit of market

259
00:13:46,160 --> 00:13:49,520
segmentation, right, Like where 
do you think solid-state will 

260
00:13:49,520 --> 00:13:51,600
come first will be most 
important? 

261
00:13:51,600 --> 00:13:52,720
Yeah. 
Maybe if you could segment the 

262
00:13:52,720 --> 00:13:54,720
market a bit for solid-state? 
Yeah. 

263
00:13:54,720 --> 00:13:57,320
For the Solar State battery, 
this is the new technology and 

264
00:13:57,320 --> 00:13:59,040
the new technology at the very 
beginning. 

265
00:13:59,040 --> 00:14:02,080
And of course without the AC, 
the scale, the price will be 

266
00:14:02,080 --> 00:14:04,160
high. 
And also I think the most 

267
00:14:04,160 --> 00:14:08,120
distinctive part is about its, 
its, its performance. 

268
00:14:08,120 --> 00:14:10,000
Yeah. 
For example, what we have here 

269
00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:14,880
is that from our battery and 
this is 65 ampere hour of the 

270
00:14:15,160 --> 00:14:19,760
Solar State battery, it has 
energy density of 315 Watt hour 

271
00:14:19,760 --> 00:14:22,800
per kilogram. 
And this battery and its porch 

272
00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:25,920
format realized no thermal 
propagation. 

273
00:14:26,200 --> 00:14:29,560
In other words, that we put 
these two batteries next to each

274
00:14:29,560 --> 00:14:33,040
other and in the middle just 
with very thin layer of the 

275
00:14:33,160 --> 00:14:36,600
aerosphere for the insulation. 
No further, let's say heat 

276
00:14:36,600 --> 00:14:40,240
management, we suit in the 
modular, we heat up one of the 

277
00:14:40,240 --> 00:14:44,000
cell until it goes to explode 
and the other cell was kept 

278
00:14:44,320 --> 00:14:47,040
intact. 
Yeah, this is a is a very 

279
00:14:47,040 --> 00:14:49,640
special distinctive safety 
trick. 

280
00:14:50,520 --> 00:14:54,120
The other one is that about this
battery's performance read 

281
00:14:54,120 --> 00:14:57,440
performance, because as you can 
imagine that is a decent ions 

282
00:14:57,880 --> 00:15:00,680
transport through the 
solid-state and therefore the 

283
00:15:00,680 --> 00:15:04,080
ions could not go that fast. 
This is also the reason people 

284
00:15:04,080 --> 00:15:07,520
regard Zarfide as a very, very 
promising, so to say the 

285
00:15:08,120 --> 00:15:11,800
technology because Zarfide 
transportation very fast. 

286
00:15:12,160 --> 00:15:14,960
But in our case and from our 
innovative, when I say material 

287
00:15:14,960 --> 00:15:21,280
design, we realized the 6C rate 
of the 100% DoD discharge. 

288
00:15:22,120 --> 00:15:26,520
And this share could realize 
around 1516 minutes of to charge

289
00:15:26,560 --> 00:15:28,840
the share from 10 to 80%. 
Yeah. 

290
00:15:29,360 --> 00:15:30,800
So basically this is very 
unique. 

291
00:15:30,920 --> 00:15:33,320
Yeah, of course, this kind of 
comes with high cost. 

292
00:15:33,800 --> 00:15:36,400
Yeah, therefore it will go to 
the high end market. 

293
00:15:36,760 --> 00:15:40,160
Take one example, for example, 
like the flying taxi where it 

294
00:15:40,160 --> 00:15:43,040
has very, very high standards 
for safety and also the 

295
00:15:43,360 --> 00:15:47,160
requirements demands for the 
energy density and for the high,

296
00:15:47,560 --> 00:15:51,320
let's say premium EV cars. 
And this is also something we 

297
00:15:51,320 --> 00:15:52,600
will target from right 
beginning. 

298
00:15:53,120 --> 00:15:58,840
And when this the skills build 
up and also let's say the 

299
00:15:59,120 --> 00:16:02,360
deployment on more and more EVs 
and the cost drives down that 

300
00:16:02,360 --> 00:16:04,000
will go to let's say the mass 
market. 

301
00:16:05,840 --> 00:16:07,760
So and maybe if you could 
compare now your because you 

302
00:16:07,760 --> 00:16:10,680
already had it showed there like
your solid-state compared to 

303
00:16:10,680 --> 00:16:12,800
other solid states. 
Yeah. 

304
00:16:13,120 --> 00:16:16,440
As I mentioned that for the, 
let's see, the organic and 

305
00:16:16,440 --> 00:16:19,960
inorganic one, Yeah, For the 
inorganic 1 oxide and arphite, 

306
00:16:20,360 --> 00:16:23,440
in principle what happened, how 
it transports the Lisami is that

307
00:16:23,960 --> 00:16:29,280
at elevated temperature for the 
oxide, all I say with a cold 

308
00:16:29,280 --> 00:16:32,880
pressing process for the 
cyrified one, it forms inorganic

309
00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:35,480
structure. 
There are Christine structure, 

310
00:16:35,720 --> 00:16:38,840
there are lots of voids and 
basically it's like the mesh, 

311
00:16:38,960 --> 00:16:42,160
you can't understand like the 
mesh, this lithium ions has very

312
00:16:42,160 --> 00:16:45,600
small in size. 
It can go through this void and 

313
00:16:45,840 --> 00:16:48,560
in this way this is how it 
transports the lithium ion. 

314
00:16:48,840 --> 00:16:51,680
But the problem is that because 
it's inorganic, it's a rigid 

315
00:16:51,680 --> 00:16:55,840
surface and with the electrode 
it's a rigid, rigid contact and 

316
00:16:55,840 --> 00:16:57,520
there are lots of interface 
issues. 

317
00:16:57,680 --> 00:17:01,040
This is the reason why people 
add the electrolyte in order to 

318
00:17:01,040 --> 00:17:04,720
minimize, mitigate this issue. 
And for the polymer ones, and 

319
00:17:04,720 --> 00:17:08,240
you know, the good thing is that
at the working temperature of 

320
00:17:08,240 --> 00:17:13,800
the polymers and it's very soft,
it can like say address this 

321
00:17:14,280 --> 00:17:17,880
interface issue very well. 
And we have very good contact. 

322
00:17:18,160 --> 00:17:21,920
However, at its working 
temperature, this soft material 

323
00:17:21,920 --> 00:17:26,040
polymer it, it is lack of 
mechanical strength, it makes it

324
00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:27,200
less. 
The battery itself is not 

325
00:17:27,200 --> 00:17:29,120
stable. 
It's like the dodge between the 

326
00:17:29,120 --> 00:17:31,000
electrode. 
Therefore, when the battery get 

327
00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:34,920
compressed and you could like 
squeeze the electrolyte out of 

328
00:17:34,920 --> 00:17:38,520
your your electrodes and then 
it's internal shortcuts, it 

329
00:17:38,520 --> 00:17:39,920
would leads to the battery 
failure. 

330
00:17:40,320 --> 00:17:43,760
But in our technology, what we 
have, the uniqueness of our 

331
00:17:43,760 --> 00:17:49,800
technology is that we introduced
a rigid skeleton and then this 

332
00:17:49,800 --> 00:17:52,040
skeleton provides the stability 
of the cell. 

333
00:17:52,400 --> 00:17:54,280
Yeah. 
And then we design the molecular

334
00:17:54,280 --> 00:17:56,880
structure, We introduce the 
softer part, which is the 

335
00:17:56,880 --> 00:18:00,560
polymer and conductive polymer 
part and we do the in situ 

336
00:18:00,560 --> 00:18:03,160
polymerization. 
And when we fill in what we do 

337
00:18:03,160 --> 00:18:06,880
that we fill in the the 
precursor of our polymer and 

338
00:18:06,880 --> 00:18:12,520
then we do the polymerization in
so doing that it's like you have

339
00:18:12,520 --> 00:18:15,800
this electrolyte, the softer 
part is growing from the 

340
00:18:15,800 --> 00:18:17,080
electrode. 
Yeah. 

341
00:18:17,280 --> 00:18:21,040
Therefore, by this way you solve
the this interfacial contact 

342
00:18:21,040 --> 00:18:23,040
issue very well. 
At the same time, you have the 

343
00:18:23,040 --> 00:18:27,160
rigid skeleton that provides the
stability of the cell. 

344
00:18:27,760 --> 00:18:29,720
This is the uniqueness of our 
technology. 

345
00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:32,080
Interesting. 
And if I think about you know 

346
00:18:32,080 --> 00:18:35,040
lithium metal anodes, there also
has been this approach right 

347
00:18:35,040 --> 00:18:37,840
that you kind of get the lithium
metal built up in the cell. 

348
00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:40,760
So you have like first on the 
cathode and then you bring it on

349
00:18:40,760 --> 00:18:43,000
the anode side. 
This is also something you could

350
00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:45,320
do here as well, like you know, 
add also lithium metal to that 

351
00:18:45,320 --> 00:18:47,320
or. 
In fact, we have decent metal 

352
00:18:47,720 --> 00:18:50,440
and for example, in our 
laboratory, we have reached 

353
00:18:50,480 --> 00:18:54,400
let's say 4 generations of sorry
battery technology. 

354
00:18:54,680 --> 00:18:58,240
The highest density from 
laboratory, it goes to up to 

355
00:18:58,240 --> 00:19:01,040
700, Yeah. 
And with the decent metal one, 

356
00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:04,800
it's our third generation 1 and 
we reached the energy density 

357
00:19:05,560 --> 00:19:08,120
between 400 to 500 Watt hour per
kilogram. 

358
00:19:08,440 --> 00:19:12,880
And this battery has been used 
on a heavy pay, heavy, heavy 

359
00:19:12,880 --> 00:19:16,840
load joints. 
The payload is 25 kilogram and 

360
00:19:17,440 --> 00:19:21,480
for that joints and it can power
the joints to fly for around one

361
00:19:21,480 --> 00:19:23,400
hour. 
But in the standard that's 

362
00:19:23,400 --> 00:19:26,840
battery, it only flies around 20
minutes, less than 20 minutes. 

363
00:19:27,160 --> 00:19:29,920
Yeah, That is decent metal. 
But the lithium metals issue is 

364
00:19:29,920 --> 00:19:34,360
that it's second life and also 
lithium metal itself and it's 

365
00:19:34,360 --> 00:19:36,640
very sensitive to the moisture 
and oxygen. 

366
00:19:37,080 --> 00:19:41,040
We need to meet the moisture and
oxygen and it forms lithium 

367
00:19:41,040 --> 00:19:43,480
hydride. 
Again, there are more lithium 

368
00:19:43,840 --> 00:19:46,920
and it's very dangerous. 
Yeah, but we have the technology

369
00:19:46,920 --> 00:19:47,960
in house. 
Interesting. 

370
00:19:48,240 --> 00:19:50,160
And so you're 'cause I think 
that's to my last question, kind

371
00:19:50,160 --> 00:19:52,320
of where are you right now in 
the progress and maybe what you 

372
00:19:52,320 --> 00:19:54,760
see in the future. 
So just understand the 4th 

373
00:19:54,760 --> 00:19:56,080
generation. 
What do you use then? 

374
00:19:56,080 --> 00:19:58,240
As an anode or? 
Anode this. 

375
00:19:58,840 --> 00:19:59,800
I don't know. 
So that's yes. 

376
00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:02,440
But then is it lithium metal on 
the end or what's? 

377
00:20:02,440 --> 00:20:05,040
No lithium metal? 
There's no lithium metal, yeah. 

378
00:20:05,680 --> 00:20:09,440
So what is the anode on the end?
This anode is just like the 

379
00:20:09,480 --> 00:20:12,840
collectors and then basically 
all the lithium ions comes from 

380
00:20:12,880 --> 00:20:15,120
castle side, yeah. 
But you have to bring it on the 

381
00:20:15,120 --> 00:20:17,120
anode as well, right? 
Like you have to, yes, it's 

382
00:20:17,120 --> 00:20:19,240
building up on the anode. 
No, you don't really need to 

383
00:20:19,240 --> 00:20:21,120
build up the other day. 
What happened is there that you 

384
00:20:21,120 --> 00:20:24,760
have the DCM eyes from the 
castles and then through let's 

385
00:20:24,760 --> 00:20:28,280
say the charging process and the
DCM eyes will go to the other 

386
00:20:28,280 --> 00:20:31,240
side is underneath these 
collectors and then you get 

387
00:20:31,240 --> 00:20:36,200
electrons and then to be reduced
into the the the the the lease 

388
00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:37,600
item. 
Basically this is. 

389
00:20:37,640 --> 00:20:38,960
So it's lithometer on the end, 
no? 

390
00:20:40,040 --> 00:20:43,160
It does not form the large batch
of the metal, but it's kind of 

391
00:20:43,160 --> 00:20:46,320
lease item now, OK. 
But like a thin layer of but. 

392
00:20:46,360 --> 00:20:49,640
A thin layer you can you can 
connect in situ formation of the

393
00:20:49,640 --> 00:20:51,240
leasing metal. 
OK, Yeah, because that's what 

394
00:20:51,240 --> 00:20:52,640
I'm thinking. 
Yeah, that makes sense because I

395
00:20:52,840 --> 00:20:54,120
just to kind of put into 
perspective. 

396
00:20:54,520 --> 00:20:57,800
So now you've done a lot of 
work, I can hear 4th generation 

397
00:20:57,800 --> 00:21:00,440
already, So now you're working 
on probably the next generation 

398
00:21:00,440 --> 00:21:01,240
already. 
Yeah. 

399
00:21:01,240 --> 00:21:02,680
And from. 
A research perspective, yeah. 

400
00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:05,400
So, so kind of what's like the 
road map you see maybe for your 

401
00:21:05,400 --> 00:21:08,640
own company and maybe also for 
people interested, like what do 

402
00:21:08,640 --> 00:21:11,080
you see to happen in solid-state
the next couple of years, right?

403
00:21:11,080 --> 00:21:14,040
Like what do you think is the 
sort of you as well from the 

404
00:21:14,040 --> 00:21:17,160
industry on solid-state? 
At least I can talk from our 

405
00:21:17,160 --> 00:21:19,520
perspective. 
Currently we are focusing on the

406
00:21:19,520 --> 00:21:22,960
mass production of these cells 
because you can see this is 65 

407
00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:27,120
ampere 01 and this is ready for 
the commercial application. 

408
00:21:27,120 --> 00:21:29,520
Yeah. 
And for example, in the past 

409
00:21:29,520 --> 00:21:33,440
what we have that our technology
was mainly used in the 

410
00:21:34,320 --> 00:21:38,320
demonstrative project at the 
bottom of Marina trenches and 

411
00:21:38,520 --> 00:21:41,120
under the water 10,000 meters 
more. 

412
00:21:41,120 --> 00:21:45,600
And our battery powered the 
Landers and continuously working

413
00:21:45,600 --> 00:21:48,320
there for 26 days. 
It broke the word record 

414
00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:50,600
basically. 
Yeah, Under the water it powered

415
00:21:50,600 --> 00:21:55,040
is AUV autonomous underwater 
vehicles and it's cruising there

416
00:21:55,040 --> 00:21:59,360
for 198 days and on the ground. 
And also we validated its 

417
00:21:59,560 --> 00:22:04,720
application in the EV and on the
UV and from the research project

418
00:22:04,720 --> 00:22:09,120
and it finished more than 11,000
kilometers on road test and in 

419
00:22:09,120 --> 00:22:12,080
the Airs as I mentioned just now
our third generation of the 

420
00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:15,640
battery powered drones to fly. 
And in the next step we are 

421
00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:19,160
basically optimizing our 
technology into this kind of 

422
00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:22,600
commercial available product and
to serve for the different 

423
00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:24,880
market. 
Of course, you know, let's say 

424
00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:28,560
research activity road map as 
you mentioned and we have let's 

425
00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:32,920
say the these metal batteries 
which has any density to 500. 

426
00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:35,720
They have let's say the 4th 
generation one with other these 

427
00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:38,400
and reaches to more than 600 
without per kilogram. 

428
00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:41,960
And these are, you know what I 
say, the pipelines, yeah. 

429
00:22:42,520 --> 00:22:44,720
Great, really exciting and I 
appreciate you sharing your 

430
00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:47,440
insights today with us. 
And I mean, exciting journey is 

431
00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:48,800
a startup. 
I know you're, you know, you're 

432
00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:50,760
making a lot of progress there 
and I think that's that's 

433
00:22:50,760 --> 00:22:52,320
exciting to see. 
So I'm excited to see some 

434
00:22:52,320 --> 00:22:54,360
updates and for the next 
generations. 

435
00:22:54,360 --> 00:22:56,480
And now we don't want to thank 
all of you listeners as well 

436
00:22:56,480 --> 00:22:59,040
today to listening to this 
podcast again to the Battery 

437
00:22:59,040 --> 00:23:01,640
Insiders podcast. 
My name is Simon Anger founder 

438
00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:03,920
and chef Battery associates. 
If you're interested for more of

439
00:23:03,920 --> 00:23:05,880
these kind of episodes, please 
make sure to subscribe on 

440
00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:09,000
YouTube, Spotify, ever podcast 
or anywhere else you listen to 

441
00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:10,760
your podcast. 
Thanks again everyone, speak 

442
00:23:10,760 --> 00:23:11,320
soon. 
Bye bye.