And welcome, everyone. Thank you so much for joining us
here for the Battery Insider Podcast.
And we're today in Detroit for the North America Battery Show
in the United States. And now it's a really busy day.
A lot of things are happening. And I'm extremely delighted to
have Lee XI with us, who's the Chief Executive Officer of AM
Battery. So wonderful to have you.
Thank you. Nice meeting you, Simon.
Perfect. So I think, you know, today we
want to talk a bit about dry electrode manufacturing.
I think it's one of these topics actually a lot of you have been
requesting to hear more about. So I'm really excited to have
this conversation. And yeah, maybe just to kind of
start a bit, we could stop introducing a company, give us a
bit of overview of the metrics. OK, maybe I can start with the
history. The company was founded in 2016
by two professors. One of them is from Texas AM,
the other one is from Worcester Polytech Institute and they want
to solve one problem which is how do we get rid of the solvent
and use in making electrode. And the traditional way, we call
it a wet process, is mixing active materials with conducting
material binders but using a solvent.
And this solvent happened to be a lovely chemical toxic material
called the NNP. And so 2 professors of if we can
use the dry process without using solvent, it can save a lot
of energy and save a lot of space and also results using a
toxic materials. So then they started founded
company and then for the next 4 years they are working the lab
and the writing papers and start to progress.
But then back to the day happened.
This is precisely 4 years ago in 2020 and Elon Musk get on the
stage and so he's going to make the 4680 sales and from the
skinny 2760 and also he said he's going to reduce the
manufacturing cost by 40% by turning the dry process into a
real manufacturing process. And so that is a game changing
moment for the industry and also for AM batteries because the
founders realize the moment for AM battery has arrived.
So within 12 months they raised the seat run and Sears A
followed within 12 months. Then last year, October 2023, we
raised $30 million this time led by Toyota Ventures and other
major investors. So we finally arrived and we
move into a new facility, start to develop engineering pilot
lines. Our business model is to sell
turnkey equipment for battery makers to make Electro using the
dry process. That's awesome.
Maybe also just one quick word about yourself, right?
Because I think I'm different experience as well.
Just interesting. Yeah.
And I have been in the industry for over 20 years.
And before I join AM Battery, maybe 14 months ago, I was
running sound guard. I was the president of Cell
Guard for many a few years and the Cell Guard was accompanying
maybe the largest separate producer in the US and the one
board of AM batteries called me up and I was intrigued.
And once I look into this technology and I realized this
could be opportunity to change the landscape of manufacturing.
So I just felt privileged to join the company and you know in
your lifetime you don't have many chance to say I can compete
against Tesla and become the major player in the new space of
dry battery electrode. That's so fascinating.
I think it gives you definitely also the, you know, credibility
to run things at price, you know, big scale.
I think if you're done with cell guard and then maybe a little
anecdotal, our listeners actually have something in
common because also we as battery sources that are all
first battery sources, battery day, one day after the Tesla
battery day. That's also four years ago.
Interesting, started. So you might have a similar
type. Yeah, it is a big game changing
for you as well. For us as well, because there's
a lot of inspiration we took from that as well, which was
amazing. Yeah, maybe now for for the
listeners, right. You don't know so much about,
you know how your process you just mentioned is turn key
solution in developing. How does this differ to the
current? Yeah, maybe I was too quick
earlier, but the current web process is you.
You can say it's a relatively simple process, but they use the
solvent, this NMP, they mix material together to make a
slurry. Slurry is just a layman's.
The may be expert expression liquid mixed with powders.
Then you start to coat them onto metal foil and the metal foil,
we usually call them current collectors.
Then after coating, you have to send them through this huge oven
to try off this lovely chemical called NMP.
And the NMP not only toxic, it is has a very high boiling point
of 200 centigrade. So considering how difficult to
dry off water, this one is exponentially more difficult to
dry off. That's why for anyone building a
giga factory, they usually have for 100m long oven to just dry
this material off. Then they have a recovery system
to keep them inside because the material is toxic.
Then some advanced companies process them again and use them
again. But early starting companies,
usually they sell them to the chemical companies.
So as a result, overall NNP material is also very expensive.
And talking to any battery makers, they will tell you more
than 40% of energy is consumed by this drying oven.
And that's why if you can get rid of this, that can really
save a lot of energy. So the operating expense, carbon
footprint and also capital expenditure will be reduced
dramatically. We usually use this 40%
reduction as a member. We fall against the wet process.
Dry process will save energy by 40% and we can reduce with our
unique technology and reduce the space usage by 70%.
So that's a big saving for any better battery makers,
especially now there is a low handling, fruits are being taken
and any technology can come in can have this kind of traumatic
reduction is to make it very attractive.
And I think especially at the topics of cost and also
sustainability are really big ones.
I think these ones, I see this also in Europe, power and other
companies talking about that as well.
Maybe just thought you mentioned others 40% cost reduction,
right. And I guess is this now on the
OPEC side CapEx or if you could maybe share with longer OpEx,
CapEx stock, is there something? More so on the capital
expenditure and also operating expenditure perspective.
Without it can reduce cost by 40% across the world.
Yeah, for both of them. And when you get to the whole
battery production and we think if you have $100 per kWh cell
and by using drive process, you can reduce the cost by 10 to
15%. So that's a huge number, $10 to
$15.00 for. One of the.
Steps here. Maybe to understand a bit about
compatibility with different chemistries and technologies.
So yeah, is it like chemistry agnostic the process And yeah,
also can you use it with all kinds of different battery
chemistries or there's somewhere more difficult?
So we have tried in the lab a few things and definitely it
will work with the NMC whether it's a low nickel 622 or 811.
And also we are trying with the LIP that is working and also we
are working with silicon anode which is working as well and the
sodium ion will also try some material that is working.
So this may be, I can call it agnostic chemistry.
One thing we cannot do is the leasing metal anode because our
unique process is the electrostatic deposition.
Yeah, we are using electrostatic deposition to put this powder
onto metal form. So if the material is conductive
then it does not work in the electrostatic approach.
And then also a kind of thinking about this, right?
Like, so what's maybe some of the limitations already
mentioned with the metal there, But other ones like, you know,
rumours are the other companies trying to make this work as
well, that scale up is really difficult as well.
Like they can do it in a smaller scale, but to get it a high, you
know, volume consistent scale is very difficult.
Maybe if you could share a bit more about that.
So good question because at the chemistry and the physics level
as a first principle perspective, I think this is
agnostic, but we're facing the same challenge everyone is
facing to scale up engineering piece.
So that is the challenge we're facing because on three front we
need to make the film wider and we need to make a film very
uniform and also we need to make the speed up so it can compete
with the web process. And actually just on Monday we
made the announcement that we ship some rolls of film to our
one of our customers and made with the engineering pilot line.
This the first time we send the rolls of film.
Until this point, we usually send the sheet samples and now
the battery makers can make a large battery pouch cell and
they can see how it is stack up against the wet process
technology. Yeah, that's a major milestone
for us. Congrats, That's that's big And
I think yeah, I think then also the goal and the consistency
these kind of things are really crucial I thought for being the
way that doctrine. Yeah.
So maybe you can also talk a bit about, you know, like you know,
energy density topics, you know, any differences What I'll pick
kilogram we kind of think get to or is it or in the calendar ring
or just kind of the same or like are there any differences?
OK. So on the energy storage or
energy density perspective is driven by the original
chemistry, right the what castle they are using.
But overall we can increase the energy density by 5 to 10%
because we can load up the thickness more easily than web
process. Web process, if you start to get
the castle material very thick uniformity is the issue and also
the drawing become even more expensive.
So people usually do not make very thick batteries and with
all process our deposition can get it loaded up very high.
And actually we tried try to loading maybe five times of the
web process. We do not need to go that far,
but just by doubling the thickness we can increase the
end result of energy density by 5 to temperature.
Can you share it like what kind of thickness can you get to like
like? Yeah, we can get to 100, twenty,
130 microns. The usually is a 60 Micron right
now. Depending, yeah.
Then I guess also on the energy density because you have it's a
bit different which kind of binders you're also using,
right, yes. And do you need more binder than
a liquid? Process, no, we are trying to
make it similar. So this is the where we're
trying to make the Lighthouse customers, which is a, a word I
recently learned means early technology adapters.
I want to make them feel comfortable.
So the barrier to entry for them to accept this technology is
becoming lower. So I just usually tell them what
kind of percentage you like and what kind of material you like
to use. We'll try to have the same
percentage of active materials. So as a result, usually they try
it, then they can have a comparison very quickly, then
realize oh this is the one actually works.
Because I think that's really important, right?
Yeah, very important. When you want to be able to kind
of essentially just do what they already have done, yeah, like at
least a composition and do it in different.
Yeah, they have one less thing to worry about, you know,
because of with four M change in the battery makers and you don't
want them to change the materials, you just change the
machine. So that's why after they make
the comparison, there's a wow, there's a great capability,
energy density and the cycle life of our equivalent.
And of course, we do have a more ambitious plan trying to make
the drive process even better than web process, this including
increase the sickness. And also we have signed the
joint development agreement with Xeon, which is a major binder
player. We ask some less developer
binder for the drive process because nowadays the most binder
is tailored. They have put a strange additive
in to make a web process work. But I said take those out, I
don't need those just to develop a clean Bender for us.
So that's a very exciting, that's our next generation
product. Because I think, yeah, as you
just said, right, Because that's one topic also I've heard is
that there's been some discussion, I think more PTF
ebays and some binders which are used for all of the dry
processes. And some people looking for more
like, you know, other internals for Binance and like more
sustainable ones, removing flowings and things like this.
And I think there's a lot of potential development as well
also. And also I want to use the
opportunity to clarify one second, please.
I mentioned Tesla, right? And I want to say we are
different from Tesla from 2 perspective.
One is the technology is different and I think most
people know the history of Tesla's dry process.
They bought a company called the Maxwell in 2019 and then two
years later they actually saw the Maxwell super capacity
business back out into the market.
Then they kept the dry process. That process is using PTFE that
you mentioned. It is a very difficult material
to work with. That is why the mixing part is
so energy intensive and also PTFE is not stable in annual if
you use it in annual production. That's why our approach actually
do not use PTFE. So this is a key differentiation
I want to emphasize. And the second part is even
though Tesla's technology is competitive against Amb's, but
we are not working in the same space.
You know, they are battery makers, they make a cars and we
are equipment produced. Down the road, Tesla could be
our customers. So that's a clarification I want
to make. I think it's important one.
So like just last thing on the binder.
So what kind of binary use like more PVDF ones?
Yeah, like just standard. Ones, yeah, that's why just like
I mentioned earlier you use the PDFE and give it to me and we'll
we'll grind it in the right particle size.
So we just need to control the particle size and the
flowability and how it handles in the electrostatic deposition.
So. And maybe just look as kind of
like last question, because this sounds great, right?
I think everyone wants that, right?
You want to have low energy requirements, lower costs, you
know, I think that's, that's everyone is looking for that.
But from a timing perspective, you know, when do you think this
will be like, you know what, what do you think when this
could be common in the market or more widely adopted?
OK, Yeah. Maybe Chairman?
So I was talking with Kurt Kelty at the GM this morning and also
talking to some expert in the marketplace.
We felt that in five years it will reach a percolation point,
then the major players with all adopters, then in 10 years it
will be prevalent in the old gigafactories will be using this
technology. And for AM batteries we are
finalizing the engineering pilot line.
So we start to have a selected customers.
We want to sell this engineering pylon plan too.
Then allow them to get into this field very quickly and also
talking with the major players in the world very quickly we
find out everyone is working on the dry battery electrode
process. Then when they look at our
process, they usually have for three reactions and one of them
is OK, let's have AJDA start to get into the qualification of
your program. So that is one group.
Then the second group is we are working with the Tesla equipment
provider because some people who sell the equipment to Tesla
nowadays start to promote themselves as a equipment maker
for dry battery Electro space. So we want to try that approach
because Tesla has a proven it work, we think we can catch up.
Then the third group is some Japanese companies and the
Korean as well. They said we have our own
approach and we want to try it ourselves.
So those are the three reactions which is a very reasonable.
I think we understand we are relatively young company and so
for us, we first thing is we need to catch up with Tesla in
terms of commercial capabilities.
Then we want to leapfrog them. And we are very happy Actually
we recruited the engineering director who used to work at
Maxwell who invented the dry battery electrode process.
And last year he joined the AM batters and the front Tesla.
And so we're very happy because when people ask him, what did
you jump ship? He said, wow, we find out the AM
battery may have a better mouse trap.
It's exciting. I think one last thing on this
one, do you think because all people, for example,
solid-state, right? I get asked like, will this
replace all the other, you know, the existing technology we have
same with this, like is there any reason why in case it all
works out as you dream, right? Like as you as you're working
hard on, is there any reason that wet process would still
exist or like other some reasons or would it be that there's no
reason that I could in theory replace all of the wet process?
Interesting. I think the high precision may
be consuming electronics that require, I think the wet process
people are continue to advance their uniformities.
And I know that consumer electronics like iPhone, Galaxy,
those still require extreme precisions.
And we know and also from the safety reasons, the uniformity
sometimes effects safety. And do you remember Galaxy Note
7, right? And that's just because they
want very same with a separator like A5 Micron or seven Micron.
And the uniformity wasn't very good and the safety feature was
not well covered. Then you start to hurt the
battery. I felt maybe very high end and
you will still have a web process.
High precision manufacturing are required.
So that's like some, but then for like automotive and that's
some things you think? That, yeah, I think the maybe
automotive energy storage system should all go to drive very
quickly. Because they're also very cost
sensitive, right? And I think yes.
Very cost of sensitive. From our automotive customers,
it's all about reducing the cost.
Excellent. You capture a very good point.
Cost sensitive sensitivity is very important.
Yeah, I really appreciate these insights.
Thank you I'm. I'm very happy both of our
companies are similar age, so these keep growing.
But no, I really appreciate these insights and look forward
to stay in touch. Yeah, and also want to thank all
of you listening to the Battery Insiders podcast today.
Again, here is AUS version at the Battery Show in North
America. Big thanks also to Informal
Markets for having us here. And again, hopefully you
subscribe to our YouTube channel or Spotify or anywhere else you
listen to this podcast and hopefully talk and see you very
soon. Thank you all.
Thank you, Sam.