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And welcome, everyone. 
Thank you so much for joining us

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here for the Battery Insider 
Podcast. 

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And we're today in Detroit for 
the North America Battery Show 

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in the United States. 
And now it's a really busy day. 

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A lot of things are happening. 
And I'm extremely delighted to 

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have Lee XI with us, who's the 
Chief Executive Officer of AM 

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Battery. 
So wonderful to have you. 

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Thank you. 
Nice meeting you, Simon. 

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Perfect. 
So I think, you know, today we 

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want to talk a bit about dry 
electrode manufacturing. 

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I think it's one of these topics
actually a lot of you have been 

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requesting to hear more about. 
So I'm really excited to have 

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this conversation. 
And yeah, maybe just to kind of 

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start a bit, we could stop 
introducing a company, give us a

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bit of overview of the metrics. 
OK, maybe I can start with the 

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history. 
The company was founded in 2016 

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by two professors. 
One of them is from Texas AM, 

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the other one is from Worcester 
Polytech Institute and they want

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to solve one problem which is 
how do we get rid of the solvent

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and use in making electrode. 
And the traditional way, we call

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it a wet process, is mixing 
active materials with conducting

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material binders but using a 
solvent. 

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And this solvent happened to be 
a lovely chemical toxic material

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called the NNP. 
And so 2 professors of if we can

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use the dry process without 
using solvent, it can save a lot

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of energy and save a lot of 
space and also results using a 

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toxic materials. 
So then they started founded 

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company and then for the next 4 
years they are working the lab 

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and the writing papers and start
to progress. 

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But then back to the day 
happened. 

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This is precisely 4 years ago in
2020 and Elon Musk get on the 

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stage and so he's going to make 
the 4680 sales and from the 

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skinny 2760 and also he said 
he's going to reduce the 

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manufacturing cost by 40% by 
turning the dry process into a 

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real manufacturing process. 
And so that is a game changing 

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moment for the industry and also
for AM batteries because the 

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founders realize the moment for 
AM battery has arrived. 

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So within 12 months they raised 
the seat run and Sears A 

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followed within 12 months. 
Then last year, October 2023, we

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raised $30 million this time led
by Toyota Ventures and other 

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major investors. 
So we finally arrived and we 

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move into a new facility, start 
to develop engineering pilot 

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lines. 
Our business model is to sell 

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turnkey equipment for battery 
makers to make Electro using the

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dry process. 
That's awesome. 

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Maybe also just one quick word 
about yourself, right? 

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Because I think I'm different 
experience as well. 

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Just interesting. 
Yeah. 

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And I have been in the industry 
for over 20 years. 

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And before I join AM Battery, 
maybe 14 months ago, I was 

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running sound guard. 
I was the president of Cell 

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Guard for many a few years and 
the Cell Guard was accompanying 

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maybe the largest separate 
producer in the US and the one 

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board of AM batteries called me 
up and I was intrigued. 

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And once I look into this 
technology and I realized this 

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could be opportunity to change 
the landscape of manufacturing. 

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So I just felt privileged to 
join the company and you know in

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your lifetime you don't have 
many chance to say I can compete

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against Tesla and become the 
major player in the new space of

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dry battery electrode. 
That's so fascinating. 

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I think it gives you definitely 
also the, you know, credibility 

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to run things at price, you 
know, big scale. 

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I think if you're done with cell
guard and then maybe a little 

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anecdotal, our listeners 
actually have something in 

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common because also we as 
battery sources that are all 

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first battery sources, battery 
day, one day after the Tesla 

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battery day. 
That's also four years ago. 

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Interesting, started. 
So you might have a similar 

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type. 
Yeah, it is a big game changing 

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for you as well. 
For us as well, because there's 

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a lot of inspiration we took 
from that as well, which was 

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amazing. 
Yeah, maybe now for for the 

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listeners, right. 
You don't know so much about, 

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you know how your process you 
just mentioned is turn key 

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solution in developing. 
How does this differ to the 

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current? 
Yeah, maybe I was too quick 

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earlier, but the current web 
process is you. 

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You can say it's a relatively 
simple process, but they use the

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solvent, this NMP, they mix 
material together to make a 

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slurry. 
Slurry is just a layman's. 

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The may be expert expression 
liquid mixed with powders. 

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Then you start to coat them onto
metal foil and the metal foil, 

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we usually call them current 
collectors. 

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Then after coating, you have to 
send them through this huge oven

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to try off this lovely chemical 
called NMP. 

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And the NMP not only toxic, it 
is has a very high boiling point

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of 200 centigrade. 
So considering how difficult to 

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dry off water, this one is 
exponentially more difficult to 

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dry off. 
That's why for anyone building a

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giga factory, they usually have 
for 100m long oven to just dry 

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this material off. 
Then they have a recovery system

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to keep them inside because the 
material is toxic. 

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Then some advanced companies 
process them again and use them 

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again. 
But early starting companies, 

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usually they sell them to the 
chemical companies. 

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So as a result, overall NNP 
material is also very expensive.

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And talking to any battery 
makers, they will tell you more 

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than 40% of energy is consumed 
by this drying oven. 

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And that's why if you can get 
rid of this, that can really 

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save a lot of energy. 
So the operating expense, carbon

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footprint and also capital 
expenditure will be reduced 

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dramatically. 
We usually use this 40% 

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reduction as a member. 
We fall against the wet process.

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Dry process will save energy by 
40% and we can reduce with our 

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unique technology and reduce the
space usage by 70%. 

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So that's a big saving for any 
better battery makers, 

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especially now there is a low 
handling, fruits are being taken

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and any technology can come in 
can have this kind of traumatic 

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reduction is to make it very 
attractive. 

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And I think especially at the 
topics of cost and also 

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sustainability are really big 
ones. 

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I think these ones, I see this 
also in Europe, power and other 

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companies talking about that as 
well. 

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Maybe just thought you mentioned
others 40% cost reduction, 

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right. 
And I guess is this now on the 

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OPEC side CapEx or if you could 
maybe share with longer OpEx, 

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CapEx stock, is there something?
More so on the capital 

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expenditure and also operating 
expenditure perspective. 

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Without it can reduce cost by 
40% across the world. 

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Yeah, for both of them. 
And when you get to the whole 

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battery production and we think 
if you have $100 per kWh cell 

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and by using drive process, you 
can reduce the cost by 10 to 

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15%. 
So that's a huge number, $10 to 

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$15.00 for. 
One of the. 

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Steps here. 
Maybe to understand a bit about 

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compatibility with different 
chemistries and technologies. 

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So yeah, is it like chemistry 
agnostic the process And yeah, 

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also can you use it with all 
kinds of different battery 

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chemistries or there's somewhere
more difficult? 

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So we have tried in the lab a 
few things and definitely it 

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will work with the NMC whether 
it's a low nickel 622 or 811. 

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And also we are trying with the 
LIP that is working and also we 

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are working with silicon anode 
which is working as well and the

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sodium ion will also try some 
material that is working. 

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So this may be, I can call it 
agnostic chemistry. 

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One thing we cannot do is the 
leasing metal anode because our 

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unique process is the 
electrostatic deposition. 

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Yeah, we are using electrostatic
deposition to put this powder 

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onto metal form. 
So if the material is conductive

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then it does not work in the 
electrostatic approach. 

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And then also a kind of thinking
about this, right? 

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Like, so what's maybe some of 
the limitations already 

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mentioned with the metal there, 
But other ones like, you know, 

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rumours are the other companies 
trying to make this work as 

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well, that scale up is really 
difficult as well. 

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Like they can do it in a smaller
scale, but to get it a high, you

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know, volume consistent scale is
very difficult. 

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Maybe if you could share a bit 
more about that. 

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So good question because at the 
chemistry and the physics level 

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as a first principle 
perspective, I think this is 

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agnostic, but we're facing the 
same challenge everyone is 

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facing to scale up engineering 
piece. 

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So that is the challenge we're 
facing because on three front we

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need to make the film wider and 
we need to make a film very 

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uniform and also we need to make
the speed up so it can compete 

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with the web process. 
And actually just on Monday we 

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made the announcement that we 
ship some rolls of film to our 

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one of our customers and made 
with the engineering pilot line.

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This the first time we send the 
rolls of film. 

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Until this point, we usually 
send the sheet samples and now 

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the battery makers can make a 
large battery pouch cell and 

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they can see how it is stack up 
against the wet process 

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technology. 
Yeah, that's a major milestone 

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for us. 
Congrats, That's that's big And 

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I think yeah, I think then also 
the goal and the consistency 

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these kind of things are really 
crucial I thought for being the 

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way that doctrine. 
Yeah. 

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So maybe you can also talk a bit
about, you know, like you know, 

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energy density topics, you know,
any differences What I'll pick 

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kilogram we kind of think get to
or is it or in the calendar ring

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or just kind of the same or like
are there any differences? 

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OK. 
So on the energy storage or 

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energy density perspective is 
driven by the original 

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chemistry, right the what castle
they are using. 

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But overall we can increase the 
energy density by 5 to 10% 

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because we can load up the 
thickness more easily than web 

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process. 
Web process, if you start to get

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the castle material very thick 
uniformity is the issue and also

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the drawing become even more 
expensive. 

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So people usually do not make 
very thick batteries and with 

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all process our deposition can 
get it loaded up very high. 

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And actually we tried try to 
loading maybe five times of the 

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web process. 
We do not need to go that far, 

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but just by doubling the 
thickness we can increase the 

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end result of energy density by 
5 to temperature. 

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Can you share it like what kind 
of thickness can you get to like

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like? 
Yeah, we can get to 100, twenty,

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130 microns. 
The usually is a 60 Micron right

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now. 
Depending, yeah. 

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Then I guess also on the energy 
density because you have it's a 

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bit different which kind of 
binders you're also using, 

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right, yes. 
And do you need more binder than

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a liquid? 
Process, no, we are trying to 

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make it similar. 
So this is the where we're 

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trying to make the Lighthouse 
customers, which is a, a word I 

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recently learned means early 
technology adapters. 

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I want to make them feel 
comfortable. 

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So the barrier to entry for them
to accept this technology is 

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becoming lower. 
So I just usually tell them what

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kind of percentage you like and 
what kind of material you like 

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to use. 
We'll try to have the same 

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percentage of active materials. 
So as a result, usually they try

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it, then they can have a 
comparison very quickly, then 

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realize oh this is the one 
actually works. 

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Because I think that's really 
important, right? 

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Yeah, very important. 
When you want to be able to kind

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of essentially just do what they
already have done, yeah, like at

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least a composition and do it in
different. 

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Yeah, they have one less thing 
to worry about, you know, 

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because of with four M change in
the battery makers and you don't

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want them to change the 
materials, you just change the 

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machine. 
So that's why after they make 

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the comparison, there's a wow, 
there's a great capability, 

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energy density and the cycle 
life of our equivalent. 

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And of course, we do have a more
ambitious plan trying to make 

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the drive process even better 
than web process, this including

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increase the sickness. 
And also we have signed the 

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joint development agreement with
Xeon, which is a major binder 

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player. 
We ask some less developer 

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binder for the drive process 
because nowadays the most binder

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is tailored. 
They have put a strange additive

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in to make a web process work. 
But I said take those out, I 

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don't need those just to develop
a clean Bender for us. 

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So that's a very exciting, 
that's our next generation 

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product. 
Because I think, yeah, as you 

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just said, right, Because that's
one topic also I've heard is 

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that there's been some 
discussion, I think more PTF 

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ebays and some binders which are
used for all of the dry 

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processes. 
And some people looking for more

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like, you know, other internals 
for Binance and like more 

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sustainable ones, removing 
flowings and things like this. 

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And I think there's a lot of 
potential development as well 

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also. 
And also I want to use the 

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opportunity to clarify one 
second, please. 

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I mentioned Tesla, right? 
And I want to say we are 

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different from Tesla from 2 
perspective. 

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One is the technology is 
different and I think most 

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people know the history of 
Tesla's dry process. 

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They bought a company called the
Maxwell in 2019 and then two 

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years later they actually saw 
the Maxwell super capacity 

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business back out into the 
market. 

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Then they kept the dry process. 
That process is using PTFE that 

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you mentioned. 
It is a very difficult material 

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to work with. 
That is why the mixing part is 

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so energy intensive and also 
PTFE is not stable in annual if 

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you use it in annual production.
That's why our approach actually

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do not use PTFE. 
So this is a key differentiation

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I want to emphasize. 
And the second part is even 

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though Tesla's technology is 
competitive against Amb's, but 

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we are not working in the same 
space. 

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You know, they are battery 
makers, they make a cars and we 

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are equipment produced. 
Down the road, Tesla could be 

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our customers. 
So that's a clarification I want

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to make. 
I think it's important one. 

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So like just last thing on the 
binder. 

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So what kind of binary use like 
more PVDF ones? 

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Yeah, like just standard. 
Ones, yeah, that's why just like

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I mentioned earlier you use the 
PDFE and give it to me and we'll

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we'll grind it in the right 
particle size. 

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So we just need to control the 
particle size and the 

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flowability and how it handles 
in the electrostatic deposition.

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So. 
And maybe just look as kind of 

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like last question, because this
sounds great, right? 

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I think everyone wants that, 
right? 

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You want to have low energy 
requirements, lower costs, you 

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know, I think that's, that's 
everyone is looking for that. 

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But from a timing perspective, 
you know, when do you think this

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will be like, you know what, 
what do you think when this 

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could be common in the market or
more widely adopted? 

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OK, Yeah. 
Maybe Chairman? 

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So I was talking with Kurt Kelty
at the GM this morning and also 

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talking to some expert in the 
marketplace. 

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We felt that in five years it 
will reach a percolation point, 

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then the major players with all 
adopters, then in 10 years it 

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will be prevalent in the old 
gigafactories will be using this

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technology. 
And for AM batteries we are 

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finalizing the engineering pilot
line. 

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So we start to have a selected 
customers. 

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We want to sell this engineering
pylon plan too. 

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Then allow them to get into this
field very quickly and also 

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talking with the major players 
in the world very quickly we 

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find out everyone is working on 
the dry battery electrode 

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process. 
Then when they look at our 

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process, they usually have for 
three reactions and one of them 

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is OK, let's have AJDA start to 
get into the qualification of 

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your program. 
So that is one group. 

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Then the second group is we are 
working with the Tesla equipment

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provider because some people who
sell the equipment to Tesla 

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nowadays start to promote 
themselves as a equipment maker 

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for dry battery Electro space. 
So we want to try that approach 

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because Tesla has a proven it 
work, we think we can catch up. 

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Then the third group is some 
Japanese companies and the 

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Korean as well. 
They said we have our own 

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approach and we want to try it 
ourselves. 

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So those are the three reactions
which is a very reasonable. 

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I think we understand we are 
relatively young company and so 

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for us, we first thing is we 
need to catch up with Tesla in 

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terms of commercial 
capabilities. 

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Then we want to leapfrog them. 
And we are very happy Actually 

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we recruited the engineering 
director who used to work at 

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Maxwell who invented the dry 
battery electrode process. 

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And last year he joined the AM 
batters and the front Tesla. 

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And so we're very happy because 
when people ask him, what did 

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00:18:22,080 --> 00:18:25,000
you jump ship? 
He said, wow, we find out the AM

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00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:26,680
battery may have a better mouse 
trap. 

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It's exciting. 
I think one last thing on this 

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one, do you think because all 
people, for example, 

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solid-state, right? 
I get asked like, will this 

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replace all the other, you know,
the existing technology we have 

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same with this, like is there 
any reason why in case it all 

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works out as you dream, right? 
Like as you as you're working 

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hard on, is there any reason 
that wet process would still 

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exist or like other some reasons
or would it be that there's no 

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00:18:54,800 --> 00:18:57,640
reason that I could in theory 
replace all of the wet process? 

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00:18:58,480 --> 00:19:03,440
Interesting. 
I think the high precision may 

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00:19:03,440 --> 00:19:08,760
be consuming electronics that 
require, I think the wet process

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00:19:09,160 --> 00:19:12,560
people are continue to advance 
their uniformities. 

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00:19:13,040 --> 00:19:18,320
And I know that consumer 
electronics like iPhone, Galaxy,

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those still require extreme 
precisions. 

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00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:26,000
And we know and also from the 
safety reasons, the uniformity 

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00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:30,200
sometimes effects safety. 
And do you remember Galaxy Note 

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00:19:30,200 --> 00:19:34,320
7, right? 
And that's just because they 

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00:19:34,320 --> 00:19:38,480
want very same with a separator 
like A5 Micron or seven Micron. 

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00:19:38,840 --> 00:19:42,280
And the uniformity wasn't very 
good and the safety feature was 

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00:19:42,320 --> 00:19:45,280
not well covered. 
Then you start to hurt the 

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00:19:45,280 --> 00:19:49,880
battery. 
I felt maybe very high end and 

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00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:51,600
you will still have a web 
process. 

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00:19:51,960 --> 00:19:55,280
High precision manufacturing are
required. 

329
00:19:55,960 --> 00:19:59,080
So that's like some, but then 
for like automotive and that's 

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00:19:59,080 --> 00:20:01,360
some things you think? 
That, yeah, I think the maybe 

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00:20:01,360 --> 00:20:06,600
automotive energy storage system
should all go to drive very 

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00:20:06,600 --> 00:20:08,280
quickly. 
Because they're also very cost 

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00:20:08,280 --> 00:20:09,640
sensitive, right? 
And I think yes. 

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00:20:09,680 --> 00:20:12,200
Very cost of sensitive. 
From our automotive customers, 

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00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:13,320
it's all about reducing the 
cost. 

336
00:20:13,360 --> 00:20:15,400
Excellent. 
You capture a very good point. 

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00:20:15,640 --> 00:20:18,800
Cost sensitive sensitivity is 
very important. 

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00:20:19,440 --> 00:20:22,560
Yeah, I really appreciate these 
insights. 

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00:20:22,960 --> 00:20:24,920
Thank you I'm. 
I'm very happy both of our 

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00:20:24,920 --> 00:20:28,520
companies are similar age, so 
these keep growing. 

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00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:31,000
But no, I really appreciate 
these insights and look forward 

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00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:33,200
to stay in touch. 
Yeah, and also want to thank all

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00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:36,280
of you listening to the Battery 
Insiders podcast today. 

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00:20:36,480 --> 00:20:40,400
Again, here is AUS version at 
the Battery Show in North 

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00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:42,360
America. 
Big thanks also to Informal 

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00:20:42,360 --> 00:20:45,040
Markets for having us here. 
And again, hopefully you 

347
00:20:45,040 --> 00:20:47,600
subscribe to our YouTube channel
or Spotify or anywhere else you 

348
00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:50,480
listen to this podcast and 
hopefully talk and see you very 

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00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:51,440
soon. 
Thank you all. 

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00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:53,480
Thank you, Sam.