1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:03,640 You're listening to the Curious Equestrian podcast, produced by 2 00:00:03,640 --> 00:00:07,880 Horsemanship Journal magazine and hosted by me, Anna Louise. 3 00:00:08,240 --> 00:00:11,920 Through this podcast, we delve into the enigmatic world of 4 00:00:11,920 --> 00:00:16,320 horses, approaching every experience with empathy and a 5 00:00:16,320 --> 00:00:19,520 sense of wonder. Bringing together trainers, 6 00:00:19,520 --> 00:00:24,640 behaviourists and horse owners, each sharing personal, exciting 7 00:00:24,640 --> 00:00:28,040 stories that deepen our connection to these majestic 8 00:00:28,040 --> 00:00:32,159 animals, we unfold diverse stories of horses and their 9 00:00:32,159 --> 00:00:37,360 people, stories that inspire the challenge and transform us. 10 00:00:37,640 --> 00:00:41,040 Join as we traverse the depths of equine behaviour and 11 00:00:41,040 --> 00:00:46,040 psychology, where curiosity leads the way and every horse 12 00:00:46,280 --> 00:00:50,960 has a tale to tell, Enriched by a variety of human experiences, 13 00:00:51,200 --> 00:00:56,480 insights and voices. This is the Curious Equestrian 14 00:00:57,320 --> 00:01:01,920 and today's guest is Cat Roy Stanley, an equine sports 15 00:01:01,920 --> 00:01:05,560 massage therapist. She's the founder of Balance and 16 00:01:05,560 --> 00:01:10,040 Align, and Cat also hosts the Equicentral Podcast. 17 00:01:10,440 --> 00:01:14,240 She has a passion for horses and a lifelong love of all 18 00:01:14,240 --> 00:01:18,520 equestrian pursuits. In her work, she focuses on the 19 00:01:18,520 --> 00:01:22,120 relationship that you're building with your horses, the 20 00:01:22,120 --> 00:01:26,600 strengths and the challenges that we might be facing in our 21 00:01:26,600 --> 00:01:30,200 partnerships. So we delve in this episode into 22 00:01:30,200 --> 00:01:32,960 so many different interesting ideas. 23 00:01:33,200 --> 00:01:36,680 We think about our energy when we enter the field or the arena. 24 00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:40,520 We think about the baggage that we're carrying around in life 25 00:01:40,520 --> 00:01:44,480 and how that might affect our horses, cat die, sex, 26 00:01:44,480 --> 00:01:48,560 communication and relationship difficulties that she's faced 27 00:01:48,560 --> 00:01:53,080 with her horses and her own personal healing journey that 28 00:01:53,080 --> 00:01:56,640 inspired her to go on. We hear all about cats 29 00:01:56,640 --> 00:02:00,680 adventures in Ghana training and working with the military's 30 00:02:00,680 --> 00:02:06,000 problem horses, and we find out how we can work on ourselves and 31 00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:09,479 be honest with ourselves in order to have healthier 32 00:02:09,479 --> 00:02:13,840 relationships with our animals. Kat, welcome to the Curious 33 00:02:13,840 --> 00:02:18,240 Equestrian podcast. Hello so nice to be here. 34 00:02:19,640 --> 00:02:23,000 Take us back, cat, to the moment when you first fell in love with 35 00:02:23,000 --> 00:02:27,840 horses in your childhoods. I was actually writing an Arthur 36 00:02:27,840 --> 00:02:30,680 on this the other day and it really brought me back because 37 00:02:30,680 --> 00:02:33,680 it's always the moment before when you sing. 38 00:02:34,800 --> 00:02:40,400 And for me, I was really little. And we used to drive past these 39 00:02:40,400 --> 00:02:42,600 horses on the side of the road. They weren't actually on the 40 00:02:42,600 --> 00:02:44,160 side of the roads, on a field, on the side of the road. 41 00:02:44,800 --> 00:02:50,320 And I seem to remember I I think I pretty much, I'd like my 42 00:02:50,320 --> 00:02:55,720 parents as a child to pull over and let me feed them apples. 43 00:02:56,040 --> 00:03:00,000 And there was three in a field and I was determined. 44 00:03:00,440 --> 00:03:01,800 And I thought they were my horses. 45 00:03:01,800 --> 00:03:05,280 Like I I used to have got a picture of me as a tiny little 46 00:03:05,280 --> 00:03:08,360 girl with looking up at this massive head. 47 00:03:08,360 --> 00:03:10,160 I think it was a Clydesdale or something. 48 00:03:10,160 --> 00:03:12,200 And there was a big one, a medium one and a small one. 49 00:03:12,200 --> 00:03:14,000 And I thought it was the daddy, the mummy and the baby. 50 00:03:14,640 --> 00:03:19,000 And I just sit there and I just remember honestly, that child 51 00:03:19,400 --> 00:03:22,560 perspective. And I hold the apple in my hand 52 00:03:22,560 --> 00:03:25,640 and they would just come over and they were so soft and gentle 53 00:03:25,640 --> 00:03:28,520 and they just take it from me. Now I know it's not good to feed 54 00:03:28,520 --> 00:03:30,880 the horses, but at the time, no. Did not. 55 00:03:31,640 --> 00:03:36,320 Oh no, very bad. And I just felt so much joy in 56 00:03:36,320 --> 00:03:39,760 that moment and I didn't feel scared at all. 57 00:03:40,080 --> 00:03:42,720 And I was so little. And they their their head was 58 00:03:42,720 --> 00:03:46,360 probably as big as me. And I used to ask every week I'd 59 00:03:46,360 --> 00:03:48,960 make my parents go back there. And I remember being like, I 60 00:03:48,960 --> 00:03:51,360 can't believe these are someone else's horses. 61 00:03:51,360 --> 00:03:53,440 They're either mine or they're wild. 62 00:03:53,440 --> 00:03:57,440 Like, why would these beautiful things have another purpose 63 00:03:57,440 --> 00:03:59,640 other than having apples from me and just living their life? 64 00:03:59,640 --> 00:04:03,640 And it really confused me. But I remember just feeling this 65 00:04:03,640 --> 00:04:08,280 connection with them and them feeling so powerful and so 66 00:04:08,280 --> 00:04:12,280 strong and so present. But I felt completely safe. 67 00:04:13,080 --> 00:04:14,920 So that was when I first connected with horses. 68 00:04:16,320 --> 00:04:18,839 It's interesting, as kids we often have that moment, don't 69 00:04:18,839 --> 00:04:21,640 we, Where we first come into contact with horses. 70 00:04:21,640 --> 00:04:24,200 For me it was a horse that lived through a woodland. 71 00:04:24,200 --> 00:04:27,040 And again, he wasn't anything to do with me, but I gave him a 72 00:04:27,040 --> 00:04:28,560 name. I called him Mighty. 73 00:04:28,560 --> 00:04:29,680 It's a. Huge. 74 00:04:29,960 --> 00:04:33,160 I imagine it was like a big Friesian horse now and I 75 00:04:33,160 --> 00:04:35,400 actually try and remember what sort of breed he was. 76 00:04:35,800 --> 00:04:38,720 I used to feed him carrots and now I think, Oh my gosh, I'm the 77 00:04:38,720 --> 00:04:41,840 owner that bangs in signs saying do not feed. 78 00:04:41,920 --> 00:04:46,120 Donuts, You know your. Kindness may kill them, but now 79 00:04:46,120 --> 00:04:49,680 I think, gosh, what was I doing? But we all have that instant 80 00:04:49,680 --> 00:04:51,640 moment where they captured our hearts. 81 00:04:51,800 --> 00:04:55,200 When did you get to own your own ponies and horses? 82 00:04:55,560 --> 00:04:58,320 Yeah, it was not a till a long time later. 83 00:04:58,320 --> 00:05:00,240 I think they captivated my heart then. 84 00:05:00,240 --> 00:05:01,720 And when you're a child and you sing. 85 00:05:01,720 --> 00:05:03,080 I know everything about horses now. 86 00:05:03,320 --> 00:05:05,280 We have connected. We are the same. 87 00:05:05,720 --> 00:05:11,640 And I again pretty much pestered with might my parents to give me 88 00:05:11,640 --> 00:05:15,600 riding lessons and I lost it. I lost my way with it. 89 00:05:15,600 --> 00:05:19,160 I had this connection with them. But I it wasn't until I was at 90 00:05:19,200 --> 00:05:23,560 14 I got my own pony because I was so desperate for that 91 00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:27,280 connection back. You know, and and I felt the 92 00:05:27,280 --> 00:05:30,280 more I the more time I spent with horses in a rhino school 93 00:05:30,280 --> 00:05:34,360 setting when you're taught to ride, the more I they didn't 94 00:05:34,360 --> 00:05:37,320 want to be with me and the more that connection felt further 95 00:05:37,320 --> 00:05:39,880 away. Because the modality of the time 96 00:05:39,880 --> 00:05:43,280 I was spending with them was me telling them what to do, me 97 00:05:43,280 --> 00:05:45,680 being demanding, me being impatient, me being a child that 98 00:05:45,680 --> 00:05:48,040 wanted it my own way. Why weren't they cantering 99 00:05:48,040 --> 00:05:49,080 properly? Why weren't they? 100 00:05:49,080 --> 00:05:53,640 It was all about what I want. And of course these poor horses 101 00:05:53,680 --> 00:05:56,200 who have got had fifty kids in the day, getting on them and 102 00:05:56,200 --> 00:05:59,560 telling them what to do and probably not being very patient 103 00:05:59,560 --> 00:06:02,760 or understanding or soft or gentle, I was like, why don't 104 00:06:02,760 --> 00:06:04,160 they like me? Why don't they connect with me 105 00:06:04,160 --> 00:06:08,000 if I want to connect with them. And so in my very naive state, I 106 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:10,800 thought, oh, it's because they're not my horse. 107 00:06:11,080 --> 00:06:16,680 That'll solve it. So I again pretty much pitch to 108 00:06:16,960 --> 00:06:19,600 my family who aren't horsey, get me a horse. 109 00:06:19,600 --> 00:06:22,800 When I was, I think I was in year 10 at the time and I was, I 110 00:06:22,800 --> 00:06:25,880 watched War Horse, I was like, you know what, we're going to 111 00:06:25,880 --> 00:06:28,360 have that connection. It's going to be he will find me 112 00:06:28,360 --> 00:06:34,360 in war because he's mine and I bought and yeah I bought my my 113 00:06:34,360 --> 00:06:39,360 my my family were kind enough to buy me a little Welsh section D 114 00:06:39,600 --> 00:06:44,400 He was three and I had no experience in starting horses or 115 00:06:44,400 --> 00:06:46,400 anything like that. I just knew how to tack them up 116 00:06:46,400 --> 00:06:48,480 at the head collar and get on and ride thought that was 117 00:06:48,480 --> 00:06:51,640 everything. So you can see this type of 118 00:06:51,640 --> 00:06:53,720 things go crashing down quite quickly. 119 00:06:54,200 --> 00:06:58,280 And I think I was faced with that moment of, oh, I have my 120 00:06:58,280 --> 00:07:03,040 own horse and yet I don't feel like I did when I was holding 121 00:07:03,040 --> 00:07:05,080 that apple with the ones when I was a child. 122 00:07:05,080 --> 00:07:07,480 He didn't want to be with me because I'm not nice to be 123 00:07:07,480 --> 00:07:09,840 around. So yeah, that was when I got my 124 00:07:09,840 --> 00:07:13,400 first horse. And tell us about the connection 125 00:07:13,400 --> 00:07:15,160 you were seeking, because it's really interesting. 126 00:07:15,160 --> 00:07:18,520 A lot of people head to riding schools to get a connection and 127 00:07:18,520 --> 00:07:21,440 to get some contact with horses when they otherwise can't. 128 00:07:21,760 --> 00:07:25,320 But what was it that you were really craving from a horse? 129 00:07:26,200 --> 00:07:28,560 I mean I think it's such an amazing question and I think 130 00:07:28,560 --> 00:07:32,280 it's one we need to go back to time and time again of the what 131 00:07:32,640 --> 00:07:37,320 because it and the more I know now is it's a deeper need that 132 00:07:37,920 --> 00:07:44,280 we so our need for relationship and our need for connection 133 00:07:45,560 --> 00:07:51,160 through being seen and also seeing it goes both ways, it's 134 00:07:51,160 --> 00:07:55,360 that I can't remember. It's a reciprocity of connection 135 00:07:56,160 --> 00:08:02,640 that you feel like you are able to speak without words to 136 00:08:02,640 --> 00:08:07,200 another being and see them for who they are and for them to 137 00:08:07,200 --> 00:08:10,800 mirror back and see you for who you are and give that depth or 138 00:08:10,800 --> 00:08:14,560 part connection that horses are so brilliant at because they're 139 00:08:14,560 --> 00:08:21,280 so present and just then they're being is relationship be just 140 00:08:21,280 --> 00:08:22,680 like us. But we've lost that along the 141 00:08:22,680 --> 00:08:24,640 way. And I think so many people seek 142 00:08:24,640 --> 00:08:27,800 out horses for a deeper reason. We're almost called to them, I 143 00:08:27,800 --> 00:08:31,800 think, because they offer that mirror to us and. 144 00:08:31,800 --> 00:08:34,240 Yeah. And when we often struggle to 145 00:08:34,240 --> 00:08:38,240 find it along the way and. And yeah, I think that is what 146 00:08:38,240 --> 00:08:40,799 we're all searching for is that thing seen and seen, heard and 147 00:08:40,799 --> 00:08:45,840 understood on a much, much deeper level than what we might 148 00:08:46,320 --> 00:08:49,880 get or what we might actually I think we're getting, if that 149 00:08:49,880 --> 00:08:52,240 makes sense. It does. 150 00:08:52,480 --> 00:08:55,160 So what happened? We're all left on tenterhooks 151 00:08:55,160 --> 00:08:58,880 wondering what this 14 year old with a Welsh section D that 152 00:08:58,880 --> 00:09:00,760 didn't want to talk to her, didn't want to know. 153 00:09:00,960 --> 00:09:03,880 Unbroken 3 year old. What did you do next when you 154 00:09:03,880 --> 00:09:06,080 realised actually? You can just picture it, kind 155 00:09:06,080 --> 00:09:06,960 of. She's not there. 156 00:09:08,320 --> 00:09:10,280 Yeah. And I think it's very fair to 157 00:09:10,320 --> 00:09:14,000 say I I literally have this business picture of me in my 158 00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:15,600 head, like, you've got the pony home. 159 00:09:15,800 --> 00:09:19,440 You've got the things you're like, my journey's about to 160 00:09:19,440 --> 00:09:22,360 begin. And then for starters, I 161 00:09:22,360 --> 00:09:25,680 couldn't even catch him. So I was just in the field like, 162 00:09:26,440 --> 00:09:28,560 OK, they say it might take a few days. 163 00:09:28,920 --> 00:09:31,440 And yeah, it's just this teenager who almost has her 164 00:09:31,440 --> 00:09:33,840 world crumble around her. It's like everything just kind 165 00:09:33,840 --> 00:09:36,560 of, you know, that moment where you're like everything. 166 00:09:36,560 --> 00:09:39,360 I know everything I thought I knew. 167 00:09:40,320 --> 00:09:43,360 I don't think he's right or is not right. 168 00:09:43,360 --> 00:09:46,440 Going forwards. What on earth do I do now? 169 00:09:47,200 --> 00:09:51,920 And I think it it was hard. It was really hard and I was not 170 00:09:51,920 --> 00:09:54,080 perfect. And I think that's what's really 171 00:09:54,080 --> 00:09:59,080 important is knowing that I did the best with what I could at 172 00:09:59,080 --> 00:10:03,920 the time and I was determined to find another way. 173 00:10:04,200 --> 00:10:07,320 And I think I had a lot of aha moments in the darkness, which 174 00:10:07,320 --> 00:10:10,320 we all do when we're almost run out of answers. 175 00:10:10,320 --> 00:10:14,200 We're forced to look in other places and we're forced to get 176 00:10:14,200 --> 00:10:17,680 real with ourselves and and allow to look at parts of 177 00:10:17,680 --> 00:10:19,320 ourselves that we didn't want to before. 178 00:10:19,440 --> 00:10:23,200 And I think it dawned on me that yes, OK people would look at him 179 00:10:23,200 --> 00:10:27,960 and go he's naughty, he is, he bites and he run like all of 180 00:10:27,960 --> 00:10:32,520 these things. He wasn't an easy in quotes for 181 00:10:32,520 --> 00:10:35,640 those who are listening pony to manage. 182 00:10:35,680 --> 00:10:39,560 So IA part of me wanted to be like it's all his fault and I 183 00:10:39,560 --> 00:10:42,240 got the wrong one. But actually, I think a part of 184 00:10:42,240 --> 00:10:46,360 me knew that he was just showing me parts of myself that I hadn't 185 00:10:46,360 --> 00:10:49,160 yet healed. And I needed to listen better 186 00:10:49,600 --> 00:10:54,560 and I needed to learn quick and I needed to understand what he 187 00:10:54,560 --> 00:10:59,440 was telling me so that I could help him and I could help him 188 00:10:59,440 --> 00:11:01,960 feel understood. Because the more I wasn't 189 00:11:01,960 --> 00:11:05,240 understanding him, the more scared and reactive and stress 190 00:11:05,240 --> 00:11:07,920 he got. And I went on an incredible 191 00:11:07,920 --> 00:11:10,440 path. Or I started studying psychology 192 00:11:10,440 --> 00:11:12,400 at school. I started to realise that 193 00:11:12,400 --> 00:11:14,920 there's more to us than the horses that meets the eye. 194 00:11:14,920 --> 00:11:19,360 There's a whole unconscious mind and there's a whole world out 195 00:11:19,360 --> 00:11:22,880 there that when you on when you see it, you're like, I can't 196 00:11:22,880 --> 00:11:26,400 Unsee this now All of I, I'd go home and I'd practice all the 197 00:11:26,400 --> 00:11:28,720 little theories that I learned in school. 198 00:11:28,760 --> 00:11:31,240 And I'd found I know I was such a little nerd. 199 00:11:31,240 --> 00:11:33,320 I was OK. Do they say if I give you a 200 00:11:33,320 --> 00:11:34,840 treat when you do this, you'll do it again? 201 00:11:34,840 --> 00:11:38,000 Like all these kind of very, very basic kind of stuff. 202 00:11:38,000 --> 00:11:41,280 And it just opened my mind and I discovered one natural 203 00:11:41,280 --> 00:11:44,440 horsemanship techniques and learning about my energy. 204 00:11:44,440 --> 00:11:46,440 What was my energy saying when I was around him? 205 00:11:46,440 --> 00:11:50,320 And it was a long road. It was a long road and it was 206 00:11:50,320 --> 00:11:55,920 one with many turns and many glimpses of peace, but mostly 207 00:11:55,920 --> 00:12:01,920 just chaos. But in the end, I think I just 208 00:12:01,920 --> 00:12:05,560 stuck with it, and I kept uncovering the pages. 209 00:12:05,560 --> 00:12:08,760 Even when it was hard to read and hard to hear, when I didn't 210 00:12:08,760 --> 00:12:10,280 know what the next day would bring. 211 00:12:10,760 --> 00:12:14,160 I just started to have compassion for him and myself 212 00:12:14,200 --> 00:12:17,280 and to stop trying to be something that we're not and to 213 00:12:17,280 --> 00:12:19,720 stop being the perfect ones on the yard and just embracing 214 00:12:19,720 --> 00:12:21,720 that. OK, there's the teenager that's 215 00:12:21,720 --> 00:12:23,440 a bit of a hot mess, and the pony that's a hot mess, but 216 00:12:23,440 --> 00:12:25,320 they're trying hard. Yeah. 217 00:12:25,400 --> 00:12:27,360 And in the end, give. Up on him, I think. 218 00:12:27,480 --> 00:12:28,560 I never. Gave up of what? 219 00:12:28,560 --> 00:12:32,280 Happens with horses is not quite what we're after. 220 00:12:32,280 --> 00:12:36,400 It's not great fits and horses passed from owner to owner, but 221 00:12:36,400 --> 00:12:39,000 you thought I'm going to stick it out here and and change my 222 00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:41,520 way of being and thinking and behaving. 223 00:12:41,960 --> 00:12:44,280 Yeah, yeah. And I think I didn't want to 224 00:12:44,280 --> 00:12:48,240 give up on myself as well because I knew that it was in 225 00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:52,360 him and I knew that was in me. But we were both misunderstood 226 00:12:53,920 --> 00:12:57,040 and that's hard to go through that and there was times my mum 227 00:12:57,040 --> 00:12:59,600 came up and she said they used to fight the two kids in the 228 00:12:59,600 --> 00:13:01,320 playground and we wouldn't look at each other and be like, oh 229 00:13:01,400 --> 00:13:06,520 for God's sake, and but in the end we grew up together and 230 00:13:07,320 --> 00:13:10,880 found our way, even if it was just learning how to communicate 231 00:13:10,880 --> 00:13:13,280 together, even if it was learning how to read each other 232 00:13:13,280 --> 00:13:15,800 and understand each other. And we were best friends in the 233 00:13:15,800 --> 00:13:18,040 end. But it wasn't an easy pass, but 234 00:13:18,040 --> 00:13:19,440 it was the path I needed to take. 235 00:13:20,920 --> 00:13:24,680 And what did you learn from psychology in class about 236 00:13:24,680 --> 00:13:26,880 humans, and how did that translate to your work with 237 00:13:26,880 --> 00:13:30,400 horses? Yeah, I think that's an amazing 238 00:13:30,400 --> 00:13:37,200 question and I think I became a real nerd and I just went on to 239 00:13:37,200 --> 00:13:40,720 study in university even as my after my period passed, I was 240 00:13:40,720 --> 00:13:44,920 like, I need to learn more about what is going on in in the heads 241 00:13:44,920 --> 00:13:50,360 of ours and the bodies of ours. And I think what I learned was 242 00:13:52,160 --> 00:13:55,800 we always think we have the answers, but we aren't even 243 00:13:55,800 --> 00:13:58,160 aware of what we do on a daily basis. 244 00:13:58,800 --> 00:14:02,800 We aren't aware of how what our face is doing or how we're 245 00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:10,000 feeling or how we're responding. Because when it's you, you can't 246 00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:15,200 see it. And there's so much, there's so 247 00:14:15,200 --> 00:14:18,600 much in our nervous system. There's so much in what our body 248 00:14:18,600 --> 00:14:23,080 is telling others and the horses and each other about how we're 249 00:14:23,080 --> 00:14:24,880 being even without opening our mouth. 250 00:14:24,920 --> 00:14:28,600 I think that's that. What stuck with me is that we 251 00:14:28,600 --> 00:14:31,040 think we're in control of so much about how we're acting. 252 00:14:31,840 --> 00:14:35,800 The point where we can say to someone, yeah, I'm fine, but 253 00:14:35,800 --> 00:14:38,680 actually your nervous system has already communicated that you're 254 00:14:38,680 --> 00:14:41,320 not fine without you even intending to. 255 00:14:42,240 --> 00:14:45,040 And that's what has carried me through in my work. 256 00:14:45,040 --> 00:14:47,640 And and understanding that underneath it all we just want 257 00:14:47,640 --> 00:14:51,920 to be understood and the power of that it's not just a oh it's 258 00:14:51,920 --> 00:14:55,360 lovely and woo woo. It's a fundamental need that we 259 00:14:55,360 --> 00:14:58,680 have for our emotional, our psychological, our physiological 260 00:14:58,680 --> 00:15:03,280 well-being is we need to exist in relationships and that is 261 00:15:03,280 --> 00:15:07,440 really powerful and learning how the brain works and the body and 262 00:15:07,440 --> 00:15:10,280 how it all works together. We try and separate ourselves 263 00:15:10,280 --> 00:15:15,320 into this and that is actually we are the way that our nervous 264 00:15:15,320 --> 00:15:18,680 system feels. It orchestrates everything else, 265 00:15:18,880 --> 00:15:22,080 including in our horses. So when we start to understand 266 00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:26,720 that, we can come to it from a way different approach of 267 00:15:26,720 --> 00:15:31,520 understanding rather than judging and being confused, just 268 00:15:31,520 --> 00:15:34,160 being excited. I think that's what really stuck 269 00:15:34,160 --> 00:15:37,800 out for me. And how do you talk about that 270 00:15:38,040 --> 00:15:40,360 energy, which is really interesting, isn't it? 271 00:15:40,360 --> 00:15:41,560 Because. When we meet. 272 00:15:41,560 --> 00:15:44,080 People, we pick up on different energies, whether someone might 273 00:15:44,080 --> 00:15:47,440 be and a bit more aggressive and we might retreat or someone 274 00:15:47,440 --> 00:15:50,480 might be very enthusiastic and we might think, oh, that's a lot 275 00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:53,960 of energy coming at me, or you can sense nervousness and 276 00:15:53,960 --> 00:15:57,160 anxiousness. How do you shift your energy 277 00:15:57,160 --> 00:16:00,160 with your horse when inevitably you're going to get stressed 278 00:16:00,160 --> 00:16:03,200 about work or worried about something in your personal life? 279 00:16:04,320 --> 00:16:06,120 Hell yeah. And I think this is such an 280 00:16:06,160 --> 00:16:07,760 amazing question. Like, I love it. 281 00:16:07,760 --> 00:16:11,680 And I think we can all listen to this and go, yes, I hear, I get 282 00:16:11,680 --> 00:16:13,760 it, I hear it. But actually, in that moment 283 00:16:13,760 --> 00:16:16,280 when you've had an awful day, like my tire popped yesterday 284 00:16:16,280 --> 00:16:19,160 and I could feel it in myself, You know, even all this work 285 00:16:19,160 --> 00:16:22,840 that you do, you're like, it's you don't start meditating when 286 00:16:22,840 --> 00:16:24,920 the house is burning down. You don't. 287 00:16:24,920 --> 00:16:28,000 No, it's about knowing. Yeah, you can't. 288 00:16:28,280 --> 00:16:31,080 It's not the moment when your horse has gone. 289 00:16:31,080 --> 00:16:33,440 Oh my God, there's a really scary thing coming. 290 00:16:33,440 --> 00:16:36,320 A dog's running towards me and I can't handle myself. 291 00:16:36,320 --> 00:16:40,280 And then we go, Oh, yeah, there's this thing, look, Cat 292 00:16:40,280 --> 00:16:42,320 told me a while ago, Let's practice it now. 293 00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:44,520 And you're like, your nervous system's already gone. 294 00:16:45,040 --> 00:16:48,040 It's gone. And I think it's being 295 00:16:48,040 --> 00:16:52,240 compassionate with the world that we live in and the world we 296 00:16:52,240 --> 00:16:56,040 put our horses in. It's like if not easy guys like 297 00:16:56,040 --> 00:16:59,400 the amount of stress and dysregulation we're around on a 298 00:16:59,400 --> 00:17:05,640 daily basis is insane and going OK. 299 00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:12,280 How can I see this and how can I firstly regulate myself? 300 00:17:13,920 --> 00:17:17,599 Because when we go into a stressful situation and we 301 00:17:17,599 --> 00:17:19,960 expect ourselves to cope, so we've had a stressful day at 302 00:17:19,960 --> 00:17:24,680 work, it was late, it's raining our horses on edge, we our 303 00:17:24,680 --> 00:17:30,320 nervous system is automatically going to disregulate and unless 304 00:17:30,320 --> 00:17:32,360 we put in the muscle work beforehand. 305 00:17:33,280 --> 00:17:36,360 So it's going taking our relationship with ourselves 306 00:17:36,600 --> 00:17:40,480 really seriously, not in a serious way, but knowing that 307 00:17:41,280 --> 00:17:46,240 we've got to be consistent, we've got to be on it with how 308 00:17:46,240 --> 00:17:50,880 we learn to regulate ourselves in day-to-day life, creating 309 00:17:50,880 --> 00:17:55,560 space for that, just like we practice riding before we go on 310 00:17:55,560 --> 00:17:58,240 a jumping course. If someone Oh yeah, I've had one 311 00:17:58,240 --> 00:18:00,080 or two lessons, let's go cross country. 312 00:18:01,400 --> 00:18:04,840 You'd be like whoa, whoa, whoa, let's just take it back a few 313 00:18:04,960 --> 00:18:07,720 steps. It's going. 314 00:18:07,880 --> 00:18:13,400 I can't expect my body to to regulate when I'm on the cross 315 00:18:13,400 --> 00:18:17,360 country course if I haven't done my stirrup work, whatever, or if 316 00:18:17,360 --> 00:18:20,360 I haven't built up a relate a language of myself or my horse. 317 00:18:20,960 --> 00:18:25,240 It's about attuning to who you are, how you're feeling and 318 00:18:25,240 --> 00:18:29,040 nurturing your relationship with yourself so that you're building 319 00:18:29,040 --> 00:18:31,200 up that feeling of safety within. 320 00:18:32,080 --> 00:18:37,520 Because when you feel safe, your horse goes, OK, I know that my 321 00:18:37,520 --> 00:18:40,960 human feels safe right now. And that's without words. 322 00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:42,040 You don't need to tell them that. 323 00:18:42,040 --> 00:18:44,560 That's just your beingness. It's like when you have a 324 00:18:44,560 --> 00:18:48,880 conversation with someone who feels grounded, you 325 00:18:48,920 --> 00:18:54,920 automatically go. Whereas if there's that person 326 00:18:54,920 --> 00:18:58,320 on the yard that's a little bit, you know, gets a bit stressed 327 00:18:58,320 --> 00:19:01,200 and gets a bit all over the place, yeah. 328 00:19:02,040 --> 00:19:06,680 Even when they arrive, the Hell's yeah. 329 00:19:06,680 --> 00:19:08,760 And I hold my hands up like, I've been that in the past. 330 00:19:09,520 --> 00:19:12,320 And you're almost going like, why is my heart being really 331 00:19:12,320 --> 00:19:15,400 fast? Because nervous systems speak. 332 00:19:17,800 --> 00:19:22,040 That is amazing and I guess that really does help a background in 333 00:19:22,040 --> 00:19:25,800 working with horses and people. Understanding yourself. 334 00:19:25,800 --> 00:19:29,920 Understanding how people operate because horses, as much as they 335 00:19:29,920 --> 00:19:33,040 do, exist in in the wilderness, we now see them, don't we? 336 00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:36,120 Alongside their owners. That's how we usually all mix in 337 00:19:36,120 --> 00:19:40,360 big herds of horses and people. How do you think your background 338 00:19:40,360 --> 00:19:44,680 in psychology then paved the way and worked alongside your 339 00:19:44,680 --> 00:19:49,920 natural horsemanship techniques? Yeah, again amazing question and 340 00:19:49,920 --> 00:19:55,440 I think I find it hilarious how firstly I I was so obsessed with 341 00:19:55,440 --> 00:19:58,120 horses that I went to study human psychology. 342 00:19:58,440 --> 00:20:02,400 Like why I was like it wasn't even a question for me. 343 00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:05,880 That's just what I wanted to do. And so there's a psycho they're 344 00:20:05,880 --> 00:20:09,240 subconscious thing of. I knew that it it comes back to 345 00:20:09,240 --> 00:20:17,000 us firstly and I think it just it gives you a different 346 00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:22,720 perspective and it's like you're you're trying to cook this 347 00:20:22,720 --> 00:20:25,640 amazing dish. Or you're you're building that 348 00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:28,400 with your horse, and it's one that needs a lot of different 349 00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:33,400 ingredients, a lot of different approaches, and the more you can 350 00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:37,800 pick from different things, the more nourishing your meal's 351 00:20:37,800 --> 00:20:40,160 going to be, the more nourishing a relationship's going to be 352 00:20:40,160 --> 00:20:42,560 with your horse. And I do think in psychology, a 353 00:20:42,560 --> 00:20:46,520 lot of it is quite left brained, which is very funny because we 354 00:20:46,520 --> 00:20:49,320 can know it all, but we don't live it. 355 00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:54,120 And I think I really had to catch myself with that because 356 00:20:54,120 --> 00:20:57,520 you can know a lot, like you can know a lot about the left brain, 357 00:20:57,520 --> 00:21:01,280 the right brain, you can know a lot about emotional versus 358 00:21:01,560 --> 00:21:06,840 rational or your mammalian brain or your actinian brain, your 359 00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:11,280 flight fight systems, you can know it all, which. 360 00:21:11,480 --> 00:21:16,120 But actually I would say that it made me realize how you have to 361 00:21:16,120 --> 00:21:18,400 live it. So it's a different approach. 362 00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:22,840 Your question of it did really help me, but it made me realise 363 00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:26,520 that knowing stuff isn't everything, It's actually 364 00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:31,000 becoming it and weaving it in and bringing it into practice. 365 00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:35,200 So I guess my horsemanship was me bringing my books into real 366 00:21:35,200 --> 00:21:39,400 life because I could read about the rough fight flight system or 367 00:21:39,640 --> 00:21:45,760 I could read about the safety or the shutdown or I could go, 368 00:21:45,760 --> 00:21:47,800 yeah, I get it and I could get top marks on it. 369 00:21:49,120 --> 00:21:52,080 But when I'm with my horse in that moment, I can't go. 370 00:21:52,080 --> 00:21:54,280 Hey man, I need you to listen to me. 371 00:21:54,280 --> 00:21:56,960 You're you're getting a little bit too emotional hair and it's 372 00:21:56,960 --> 00:21:59,840 actually, it's just a BIM. So I need you to just breathe. 373 00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:04,560 And that doesn't compute. So it's it was bringing it into 374 00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:05,960 practice. So I'd actually think my 375 00:22:05,960 --> 00:22:08,560 horsemanship made my psychology deeper. 376 00:22:10,080 --> 00:22:11,640 And tell us. You've got to tell us, Kat, 377 00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:15,840 about your adventures in Ghana. What inspired you to take the 378 00:22:15,840 --> 00:22:18,520 trip and to go and work with military horses? 379 00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:22,720 Oh, I love that you brought this up because I just love. 380 00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:28,240 I think Garner was the trip that made me because I just lost my 381 00:22:28,240 --> 00:22:31,120 pony and I was going that do I quit forever. 382 00:22:31,120 --> 00:22:33,600 When you've lost that horse that's really brought you so 383 00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:37,160 much and made you who you are, and it almost feels so painful 384 00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:41,000 to continue the journey with another or in a different way or 385 00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:44,000 to imagine your life without them. 386 00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:47,360 And to bring, it's almost like you're starting the next 387 00:22:47,360 --> 00:22:50,160 chapter. And it's really painful to 388 00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:53,200 imagine doing that without the person that made the beginning 389 00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:56,000 of the book. And I was at university at the 390 00:22:56,000 --> 00:22:59,800 time and I was like, I'm done with the UK. 391 00:22:59,920 --> 00:23:03,800 I'm just at that point where I was like, I don't know who I am. 392 00:23:04,560 --> 00:23:08,200 I thought I knew this all about me and I'm still a hot mess. 393 00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:15,760 So I know who's ever had that before, honestly. 394 00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:20,720 So I was like, I'm not even joking, I went, I've got a 395 00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:23,960 placement year in my university, so that's just included in my 396 00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:27,400 course. A lot of people went to normal 397 00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:31,880 things, so they did educational psychology, occupational 398 00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:36,320 psychology, they went to work in clinical settings in London and 399 00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:41,640 really amazing things. And I was like, I'm Googling. 400 00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:43,760 I thought I wanted to do sports psychology. 401 00:23:44,560 --> 00:23:46,160 Now the horses are a part of this journey. 402 00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:48,840 I was like, I know I want to do sport psychology. 403 00:23:49,280 --> 00:23:51,600 I'm done with the UK. Let's just Google. 404 00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:53,280 I'm just going to Google, see what happens. 405 00:23:53,760 --> 00:23:58,320 So I googled sport psychology placements abroad. 406 00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:03,600 The first thing that came up, yeah, was Ghana. 407 00:24:05,280 --> 00:24:09,120 I didn't know where it was. My geography is not. 408 00:24:09,120 --> 00:24:10,640 I studied psychology, for reason not. 409 00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:13,000 Geography, Ghana was. Nothing. 410 00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:17,720 I honestly didn't even know. As an African, this is how much 411 00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:21,080 of AI can get a stars. But I don't have common sense. 412 00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:24,240 I went to my mum. I was like, mum, I'm moving to 413 00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:26,480 Africa for a year. I'm moving to Ghana. 414 00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:29,040 She was like, do you know, could you point out on a map? 415 00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:34,080 I was like, no, but I'm going there, bless her, she was like, 416 00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:37,280 OK, she's doing this. Looking back, I'm like, thank 417 00:24:37,280 --> 00:24:40,640 you Mum, because that's a crazy decision to allow your child, 418 00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:43,560 who clearly has no sense direction to move to Africa for 419 00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:46,640 a year and trust that she'll come back alive. 420 00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:51,600 So yeah, so I went and I worked with sports psychology, I worked 421 00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:54,880 with the football team and I learnt a lot, I learnt a lot 422 00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:58,920 about communication, teamwork, how you can know all the skills. 423 00:24:59,120 --> 00:25:01,080 If you do not believe in yourself to get a goal, you 424 00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:04,320 won't and you can have it all. But if that belief that you are 425 00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:07,240 enough isn't there, you won't score. 426 00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:10,320 And they were incredible, and they taught me incredible 427 00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:13,200 lessons. I just had this feeling of 428 00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:15,440 horses, this yearning for horses. 429 00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:19,160 And I got into university writing a personal statement 430 00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:21,000 about horses, which is hilarious, doing human 431 00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:24,480 psychology. And I met a friend through 432 00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:27,200 another friend who was like, hey, cat, we're going to start 433 00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:31,240 an equine project. And I was like, what? 434 00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:32,880 She knew nothing about me to know horses. 435 00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:36,840 Horsey. And I was like, you know, 436 00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:39,560 there's some creepy stuff going on here, but I'm in. 437 00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:41,640 I said yes. And she was like, oh, it's with 438 00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:44,440 the military's horses. And I went and I spent six 439 00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:48,840 months with the military's horses and they literally handed 440 00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:53,400 me an unbroken 2 year old problem horse. 441 00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:57,160 This is inverted commas who whenever anyone touched him, 442 00:25:57,160 --> 00:26:00,120 he'd rear up and hit him in the face or he'd run away or he 443 00:26:00,120 --> 00:26:02,560 would, he'd just very scared, misunderstood, flighty. 444 00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:05,160 And the way that they'd initiated the training with him 445 00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:07,160 was very forceful. So everything he knew about 446 00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:09,200 humans was like, they're not safe. 447 00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:11,720 And I had my little rope with me. 448 00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:14,000 My little halter didn't even have a stick. 449 00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:19,080 And they went, here you go, like, OK, yeah. 450 00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:23,600 And I had 10 weeks. With the unbroken 2 year old. 451 00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:26,600 Cry a lot. I had no one else to help me 452 00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:28,960 like my good friend. She thankfully did horsemanship, 453 00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:31,360 so she was amazing. I still work with him today, the 454 00:26:31,360 --> 00:26:35,240 most incredible charity of Kaaba volunteers, and she helped me 455 00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:40,160 and I just had to pick my soul off the floor every day because 456 00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:44,240 it was like, he scared me so much because he felt like he 457 00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:47,160 just run me over. I didn't know all of the holes 458 00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:51,040 in my horsemanship, in my belief in myself came up and if I 459 00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:53,520 didn't trust myself, he couldn't trust me. 460 00:26:54,120 --> 00:26:58,240 And I'd go home every night crying because I'd be like, I've 461 00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:00,640 realised this about myself. I've realised that I don't trust 462 00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:02,440 people. I've realised that I don't know 463 00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:04,640 how to set boundaries. I've realised that I don't know 464 00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:06,680 how to. All of these things came up that 465 00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:11,160 I thought I dealt with and I went to the depths of my soul 466 00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:13,880 every evening and I'd look up, I'd pick up Pirelli videos, I'd 467 00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:16,520 look up horsemanship, I'd look up anything that I could find. 468 00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:20,120 And my 4th friend got so fed up of me using all the Internet 469 00:27:20,120 --> 00:27:24,160 because I'd be looking up palsy videos and bit by bit we 470 00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:27,520 developed a communication, a friendship. 471 00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:31,400 It was as much me learning as he was learning, and by the end of 472 00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:36,880 it we were running together. We we just had this bond of he 473 00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:38,960 felt so safe with me. I was the only person who could 474 00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:43,160 bring him in from the field like and it was there and to this day 475 00:27:43,160 --> 00:27:44,840 he's one of their best ridden horses. 476 00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:46,880 Like he is just kind to everyone. 477 00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:49,720 They love him. His name's spirit, but they call 478 00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:54,920 him iron because they feel like he's so strong and he truly 479 00:27:54,920 --> 00:27:58,840 changed my life Truly, truly. So that's that was gone A. 480 00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:04,960 Turning point with spirit, when did he change from that rearing, 481 00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:08,600 punching in the face, Dangerous Scary horse to you, to actually 482 00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:11,800 the breakthrough moment of thinking we've got a connection 483 00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:14,960 building here? Yeah, and I've actually, I've 484 00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:16,120 got, I made a little video about it. 485 00:28:16,120 --> 00:28:17,960 I'll I'll send it to you off as you can share. 486 00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:23,360 But I think it was a few weeks in, I just had to keep showing 487 00:28:23,360 --> 00:28:25,560 up and it's like when everything's going wrong, when 488 00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:27,560 you don't know what the day is going to bring, you don't know 489 00:28:27,560 --> 00:28:30,120 if you're doing it right. You just keep showing up and 490 00:28:30,120 --> 00:28:31,800 believing and shifting within yourself. 491 00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:36,000 And I think it was a few weeks where he just would see me 492 00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:38,520 before. It was like trying to have a 493 00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:40,640 conversation with someone that was like, seeing red. 494 00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:42,040 They just, they didn't want to connect. 495 00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:43,360 They couldn't connect. It was too much. 496 00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:45,760 It was too dangerous. And I remember there was one 497 00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:49,160 day, I think it's probably 2 weeks in, he looked at me and he 498 00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:53,520 went, oh, you're with me. You see me. 499 00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:56,440 And I was like, hi. And I used to feel really 500 00:28:56,440 --> 00:28:58,440 uncomfortable when you'd come in close because you just don't 501 00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:02,040 know when they're that reactive. And I remember going, OK, just 502 00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:05,080 breathe. And I was like, let's meet him 503 00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:07,680 where he's at. And I just came over and I put 504 00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:10,480 my, my hand on him and I was like, OK, hey, buddy, I'm here 505 00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:14,560 to help. And it was tiny moments of that. 506 00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:17,920 Then he'd be off and it'd be another whole song and the dance 507 00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:20,240 and I'd be like, please, it's fine, OK. 508 00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:23,520 And they'd just be tiny moments along the way. 509 00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:25,840 And they just started getting bigger and bigger. 510 00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:29,280 And then to the point where we could go around or I could ask 511 00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:32,520 him for a tiny little backup and he would see me and go, Oh my 512 00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:34,760 God, I understand what she's asking. 513 00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:37,360 I get it. And then he'd come and engage 514 00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:39,440 with me, or he'd want to be with me. 515 00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:43,120 And it was that relationship. That's what that it was, that 516 00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:45,160 moment that the IT was the relationship. 517 00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:48,640 Rather than me trying to fix him or me trying to make him feel a 518 00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:51,920 certain way, it was just me going, I'm here for you, buddy, 519 00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:53,680 and we're figuring this out together. 520 00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:56,760 Yeah. I'm feeling that connection as 521 00:29:56,760 --> 00:30:00,560 well, I think so often in the world of equestrianism, we're 522 00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:03,080 looking for results, aren't we? We're looking for visual 523 00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:06,720 progress, but actually often it's feeling the connection or 524 00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:09,200 feeling that relationship building that we should be 525 00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:12,560 looking out for in a way. Yeah. 526 00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:15,360 And it's so true, isn't it? Because even me, I was like, oh, 527 00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:19,200 we'll fix, We'll, I'll fix him or we'll be able to do this by 528 00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:21,960 the end of the time. And I just because it was such a 529 00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:26,400 humble experience and I just had to completely let that go and 530 00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:29,560 say whatever will be. And it brought me to tears, the 531 00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:33,080 depths of that relationship, because I'd never even with my 532 00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:36,520 pony, I think I I had an an expectation in mind. 533 00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:39,840 Never in my life had I been in a place where I felt like the 534 00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:44,080 outsider and I could just completely go OK, Even if I just 535 00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:46,720 have a moment of relationship with you in these six months or 536 00:30:46,840 --> 00:30:49,680 however many weeks we're together, that's enough. 537 00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:52,400 And I think that's what we've lost as humans. 538 00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:55,120 We go to our phones for connection because we deeply 539 00:30:55,120 --> 00:30:58,920 yearn for that. It's a feeling and we're going 540 00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:01,720 to it in so many different places to try and find it. 541 00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:03,080 And we're not getting it because. 542 00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:06,640 And now we're losing touch with it, which is why it feels so 543 00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:10,320 hard with our horses sometimes, because we're taught to look for 544 00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:14,120 something, not feel it. That's so true. 545 00:31:14,600 --> 00:31:18,000 And when you were working with these military horses and with 546 00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:21,800 spirits, what were you told you had to achieve with him? 547 00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:24,480 You know what you were going for and what you wanted and and what 548 00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:27,040 you wanted to feel and and the progress you wanted to make. 549 00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:30,160 But did you have to box tick anything along the way? 550 00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:39,640 I'm so yes and no. I think no nowhere near as much 551 00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:42,440 as we would box tick. I love that about them actually. 552 00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:48,480 The because there there no one was like I know what to do and I 553 00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:51,200 know how to do it better, which is what I think we're all guilty 554 00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:55,200 of especially in the horse music world and in the UK and many 555 00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:59,560 places in the world is we want to control and micromanage and 556 00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:03,760 often put too many tick boxes so that we lose the magic of the 557 00:32:03,760 --> 00:32:07,360 journey. And I really appreciated that 558 00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:10,000 about them because I think they saw me as a professional. 559 00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:15,800 I think they saw me as like I got handed the under seventeens 560 00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:18,880 youth national team in Ghana like a football team. 561 00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:21,040 They were like, oh you're a professional, here you go, give 562 00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:23,920 them a speech. And I was like, I know nothing 563 00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:25,000 about football. Here we go. 564 00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:26,880 Like, they just go. Yep. 565 00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:28,920 You you must be a professional. Here you go. 566 00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:31,880 And obviously, you know, can't endorse that all the time, but 567 00:32:32,160 --> 00:32:35,280 in that moment, I think I was so blessed enough for them to go, 568 00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:39,280 OK, we can't do anything with this horse, so we're just going 569 00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:42,280 to leave her to it. And I fell at peace because I 570 00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:43,800 could work my way through things. 571 00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:46,520 It didn't look perfect. If someone filmed it and posted 572 00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:48,360 it online, people would be like, Oh my God, what's going on 573 00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:51,360 there? But I was able to make mistakes 574 00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:53,840 and I was able to have the freedom of figuring it out as I 575 00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:55,840 go. And yes, they wanted a ridden 576 00:32:55,840 --> 00:32:58,800 horse at the end of it, but it I never felt that pressure and I 577 00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:00,760 never. And I was very clear of them, 578 00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:03,440 like what we were doing and the this. 579 00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:08,480 I just needed to help him feel safe. 1st and I spent weeks out 580 00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:10,760 there and they're probably looking at me like, OK, crazy 581 00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:13,920 ladies out there again. But I never felt judged and I 582 00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:17,320 never felt criticized. And yeah, there wasn't the tick 583 00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:18,880 boxes. Oh, he needs to be doing this 584 00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:20,000 now. He needs to be. 585 00:33:20,040 --> 00:33:21,680 We need to be putting a saddle on him now. 586 00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:25,800 It just came organically and that meant I could do it with 587 00:33:25,800 --> 00:33:29,120 his yeses rather than going, hey buddy, we've got to do this by 588 00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:31,080 the other than a week because tick, tick, tick, tick. 589 00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:32,640 No, it's not putting the relationship for. 590 00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:34,080 And there was many horses I worked with there. 591 00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:37,400 Another one who was a horse called Zara, who they call her 592 00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:41,000 the Devil's horse. Not very nice because she just 593 00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:44,240 was like, I can't handle humans and they wanted her to be 594 00:33:44,240 --> 00:33:45,520 ridden. That was a tick box. 595 00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:47,320 But in that moment, I was confident enough. 596 00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:49,800 This was a year after of going, hey guys, let's just take it 597 00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:52,040 back. Let's just come back. 598 00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:53,840 And then the magic started to happen. 599 00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:57,520 So yeah. So you learnt as well, a lot 600 00:33:57,520 --> 00:34:00,200 from the Ghanaian military. You learnt that they put less 601 00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:05,000 box ticks in place than we perhaps do, less pressure maybe 602 00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:07,680 than we do in the equestrian industry over here. 603 00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:10,679 Did you learn anything else from their way of going and from 604 00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:12,719 their way of being around horses? 605 00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:18,280 That is a very good question. I think I it was really funny 606 00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:22,520 because I had never spent that many, that much time with as 607 00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:25,239 many boys or men in my life as when I went to Ghana. 608 00:34:25,239 --> 00:34:29,159 Like obviously I lived with 30 football players from the age of 609 00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:33,040 9 to 20. Then I went to work and with the 610 00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:38,320 military and I'd I'd come from a very female oriented place. 611 00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:41,159 And I think it was really enlightening for me, actually, 612 00:34:41,159 --> 00:34:45,920 because I realized how much simpler, like, they're not in a 613 00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:49,360 bad way and actually really lovely way of how much we can 614 00:34:49,360 --> 00:34:51,800 overcomplicate things and put in motions. 615 00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:57,640 And and almost we don't see each other because we're so 616 00:34:57,640 --> 00:35:00,520 judgmental about each other. That's all really. 617 00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:03,320 And they were so embracing. They were some of the most 618 00:35:03,320 --> 00:35:06,760 beautiful people I've ever met. And they'd be like in the 619 00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:09,640 military with a massive gun truck, taking things very 620 00:35:09,640 --> 00:35:12,600 seriously. They're like, yes, can't laugh. 621 00:35:12,720 --> 00:35:15,040 They would just sing with me. They would dance with me. 622 00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:17,200 They'd laugh. I'd say hi to everyone. 623 00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:20,000 And I felt really safe with them. 624 00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:25,840 And I had this lightness and this and this mix of boundary, 625 00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:27,520 this. Yeah, I'm the military, but 626 00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:32,600 there's also such a playfulness about it and I think that's the 627 00:35:32,640 --> 00:35:34,760 biggest thing I learnt from them was fun. 628 00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:38,440 And that's such a crazy thing to say because you think and 629 00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:40,600 discipline, no doubt. Some of the things they were 630 00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:43,600 telling me they had to do for training and how serious it got 631 00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:47,320 and how much they had to do and yet they had so much joy in 632 00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:50,080 them. And one particular guy called 633 00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:51,960 Bwate, who used to run the stables. 634 00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:56,200 We'd just laugh and laugh, and yet I always felt safe of them, 635 00:35:56,320 --> 00:36:01,000 like they had my back and yet they were able to laugh when 636 00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:03,040 something went wrong. They had a camel on site. 637 00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:06,560 We just used to chat the camel. And that's a really unexpected 638 00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:09,600 lesson actually of and also how much shit can get done. 639 00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:12,480 Excuse my friend when you actually have no idea what 640 00:36:12,480 --> 00:36:17,600 you're doing, when you have a mission and a goal and you just 641 00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:22,440 make it happen. And I was like, well, OK, OK, 642 00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:25,320 And it's really interesting lessons, but they were 643 00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:29,120 wonderful. How did you leave Spirit behind 644 00:36:29,120 --> 00:36:30,920 when you had to come back to the UK? 645 00:36:32,560 --> 00:36:36,920 Oh, it was one of the hardest things I've had to do one of the 646 00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:39,440 hardest things. And I think when you've started 647 00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:43,080 a horse in that way and they've become the first human that 648 00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:46,040 you've that they've trusted. I think a bit. 649 00:36:46,040 --> 00:36:47,640 A big part of me wanted to move there. 650 00:36:47,880 --> 00:36:49,360 Not going to lie. I think I was like, once I'm 651 00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:53,640 done with the UNI, we're going back and the guys that stay. 652 00:36:53,640 --> 00:36:56,440 We used to call him my horse and I'd be like, how much would it 653 00:36:56,440 --> 00:37:00,240 cost to fly him over to England. It was really tough. 654 00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:04,480 And I think it's because of that relationship that you can't 655 00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:09,640 explain to them why you're going or where you're going or helping 656 00:37:09,640 --> 00:37:10,560 them go. Hey, it's OK. 657 00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:13,760 You're in good hands and I've loved my time with you and I 658 00:37:13,760 --> 00:37:15,640 know they've seen it. You can tell them and share 659 00:37:15,640 --> 00:37:17,920 them, share that with you, but at the end of the day you have. 660 00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:24,040 I just had to let go and be OK with whatever was meant to be in 661 00:37:24,040 --> 00:37:28,000 his journey was meant to be. And knowing that the start that 662 00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:32,280 we had together, if that had opened him up for connections in 663 00:37:32,280 --> 00:37:37,400 the future and for him to be understood more and treated more 664 00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:41,200 gently because his behaviour was more gentle when and he could 665 00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:43,560 communicate rather than just explode. 666 00:37:44,240 --> 00:37:48,680 I think I had to find peace in that and know that we can't 667 00:37:48,680 --> 00:37:52,080 control the journeys of every single horse and human and it's 668 00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:54,800 the hardest thing we'll ever have to do when you've got that 669 00:37:54,800 --> 00:37:58,880 depth of relationship. But going on taking your lessons 670 00:37:58,880 --> 00:38:03,120 with me and I'm going to use them to change people's lives 671 00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:06,280 and horses lives, and you have changed me as a person and I 672 00:38:06,280 --> 00:38:08,960 hopefully I've changed you. There was tough. 673 00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:13,800 I crippled a lot and I I've been back a few times since and seen 674 00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:16,520 him and it's never the same. They've been through life that 675 00:38:16,520 --> 00:38:19,320 we have, but there's always that acknowledgement and that 676 00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:22,720 resonance that you started this world together that makes. 677 00:38:24,360 --> 00:38:27,480 Sense and you talk about your lessons that you've learnt from 678 00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:30,600 Spirit. What do you now take from that 679 00:38:30,600 --> 00:38:34,400 and use with your clients and with other horses that you work 680 00:38:34,400 --> 00:38:36,520 with? What sort of translatable 681 00:38:36,520 --> 00:38:40,040 techniques do you use in your horsemanship Now that's stems 682 00:38:40,040 --> 00:38:46,840 back to spirits, yeah? And so many, I think many 683 00:38:46,840 --> 00:38:50,600 lessons we learn from horses go beyond words because they are a 684 00:38:50,600 --> 00:38:55,360 being and you don't realise the impact of the lessons that 685 00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:57,640 you've had from horses that you've touched and they've 686 00:38:57,640 --> 00:39:01,600 touched you because they're in your body and they're in your 687 00:39:01,920 --> 00:39:05,040 the way you interact, the softness of your hands, your 688 00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:08,480 eyes, your perspective. I think he's changed that 689 00:39:08,480 --> 00:39:10,240 forever. All of the horses in my path 690 00:39:10,280 --> 00:39:14,440 have and just having compassion as well. 691 00:39:14,440 --> 00:39:20,320 I think for the journey and knowing that it's OK to not know 692 00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:25,440 what you're doing and it's OK to feel like you're in the darkness 693 00:39:25,440 --> 00:39:28,400 and you want to do something different but you don't know 694 00:39:28,400 --> 00:39:30,400 how. And I think that's what I want 695 00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:35,480 to be for my clients is I I know the value of being heard. 696 00:39:36,280 --> 00:39:39,120 And even if it's just going, hey, I know what you're doing 697 00:39:39,120 --> 00:39:40,680 right now. It doesn't feel good and it 698 00:39:40,680 --> 00:39:42,800 doesn't work for you. I hear you and that's OK That's 699 00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:46,560 amazing. Let's help you shift you. 700 00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:48,280 Because that's what spirit taught me, right? 701 00:39:48,280 --> 00:39:52,040 Was like so much of me was getting in the way of of him 702 00:39:52,040 --> 00:39:54,800 having breakthroughs because of things I didn't even things that 703 00:39:54,800 --> 00:39:57,040 were just in my unconscious I had to work through. 704 00:39:57,320 --> 00:40:01,400 So it definitely shifted that that moment of going Oh my God, 705 00:40:01,400 --> 00:40:04,600 it all comes back to us. And I thought I knew it, but I 706 00:40:04,600 --> 00:40:08,360 didn't know it. And so that's the approach now 707 00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:14,680 but I'm like hey let's help you feel sane and shift what's in 708 00:40:14,680 --> 00:40:18,240 you that your horse is seeing and and touching on that they're 709 00:40:18,240 --> 00:40:22,280 they've got a mirror to. So that then you can be the safe 710 00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:26,080 space that they need to shift. I think before I'd go into it 711 00:40:26,080 --> 00:40:29,440 like Oh yeah, they need to I need to help them with their 712 00:40:29,440 --> 00:40:32,600 language or I need to help them feel understood. 713 00:40:32,600 --> 00:40:35,040 But it was, even though it was with compassion and love, it was 714 00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:39,320 them. Rather than going, OK, let's 715 00:40:39,320 --> 00:40:44,880 look at me first and why am I getting upset at certain points? 716 00:40:44,880 --> 00:40:47,600 Why do I get upset when they leave me in the field and I feel 717 00:40:47,600 --> 00:40:50,360 all deflated, or when they explode and I feel out of 718 00:40:50,360 --> 00:40:56,080 control And there's a reason. So let's be curious and look at 719 00:40:56,080 --> 00:40:57,240 that. And that might bring some 720 00:40:57,240 --> 00:41:01,040 difficult moments, but ultimately when we shift then we 721 00:41:01,040 --> 00:41:03,600 can see our horse so much better and we can be there for them and 722 00:41:03,600 --> 00:41:07,000 we can help them in their moment of darkness because we've done 723 00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:11,200 the work on ourselves. How difficult is it, cat to 724 00:41:11,200 --> 00:41:15,120 approach the owner and say now let's turn the focus on you 725 00:41:15,240 --> 00:41:18,200 because I imagine they think I've called you up to work on my 726 00:41:18,200 --> 00:41:21,840 horse, not for a counselling or therapy session about me and my 727 00:41:21,840 --> 00:41:25,040 issues. Hell's Yeah. 728 00:41:25,160 --> 00:41:28,520 And it ironically, I didn't, I didn't realise, wanted to be a 729 00:41:28,520 --> 00:41:30,080 real. I mean, firstly, that's why I've 730 00:41:30,080 --> 00:41:32,480 got a question. Relationships, coaching my name 731 00:41:32,920 --> 00:41:36,400 because those people who go, oh, that sounds great, Probably the 732 00:41:36,400 --> 00:41:39,520 kind of people that are already ready for those conversations. 733 00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:42,840 It's tough. And I think I did a Equi massage 734 00:41:42,880 --> 00:41:45,040 qualification, just I just was curious. 735 00:41:45,040 --> 00:41:46,120 I wanted to get into the industry. 736 00:41:46,120 --> 00:41:49,000 I wanted to. I didn't know how to be what I 737 00:41:49,000 --> 00:41:50,320 wanted to be. I know you need to start 738 00:41:50,320 --> 00:41:53,280 somewhere. And everyone got so annoyed with 739 00:41:53,280 --> 00:41:57,120 me because they were like, why aren't you just massaging my 740 00:41:57,120 --> 00:42:00,760 horse in silence? Like why do you keep telling me 741 00:42:01,160 --> 00:42:04,400 about me? And I'd be there like, Oh yeah, 742 00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:07,600 no, I think this tension is you know, what about this and your 743 00:42:07,600 --> 00:42:08,920 horse and have you ever thought about this? 744 00:42:08,920 --> 00:42:11,680 And I think people would just be like, Oh my God, this is the 745 00:42:11,680 --> 00:42:15,400 most high maintenance massage I've ever had to give my horse. 746 00:42:16,000 --> 00:42:19,360 Because I'm just like, you know, you go away thinking, Oh no, my 747 00:42:19,360 --> 00:42:21,400 horse got nicely, it's back and I'm questioning my whole 748 00:42:21,400 --> 00:42:25,320 existence. And I think that made me realise 749 00:42:25,320 --> 00:42:29,520 I needed to go into it as an actual thing. 750 00:42:29,520 --> 00:42:33,800 And a lot of my clients are, they're just the most beautiful 751 00:42:33,800 --> 00:42:35,800 people. And I think you get that 752 00:42:35,800 --> 00:42:38,320 impression with me quite quick. I'm not about messing around 753 00:42:38,320 --> 00:42:41,280 with the point I'm in and a lot of people that's a little bit 754 00:42:41,280 --> 00:42:45,840 too much, you know, that kind of whoa, OK And there has been 755 00:42:45,840 --> 00:42:49,960 moments, you know, where there has been. 756 00:42:50,240 --> 00:42:55,320 It's been a really tough one because as a coach and as 757 00:42:55,320 --> 00:43:01,840 someone who I'm like, I I want to help you the best I can and 758 00:43:01,840 --> 00:43:04,440 have the conversations that I feel like you're ready for. 759 00:43:04,720 --> 00:43:07,600 And it's OK if people are like, OK, no, I don't want to go 760 00:43:07,600 --> 00:43:08,920 there. And I'm like, that's totally 761 00:43:08,920 --> 00:43:13,440 cool and it's, it is hard. And I think that's why I'm very 762 00:43:13,440 --> 00:43:19,360 transparent, even in my name of this isn't about the results, 763 00:43:19,360 --> 00:43:23,160 it's about the relationship and are you OK with it taking longer 764 00:43:23,160 --> 00:43:26,880 than you think? Are you OK with embracing that 765 00:43:26,880 --> 00:43:30,920 journey, whatever it may be? Are you OK with looking at 766 00:43:30,920 --> 00:43:32,440 yourself? Because I'm always like, there's 767 00:43:32,480 --> 00:43:36,560 us, there's our horses and there's our relationship 768 00:43:36,560 --> 00:43:38,360 together. We've got those different 769 00:43:38,360 --> 00:43:42,520 components. And I think from the get go, I 770 00:43:42,520 --> 00:43:47,360 was like, you are the most, you are the key component in every 771 00:43:47,360 --> 00:43:50,560 relationship you have. Be that with your Guinea pig, 772 00:43:51,040 --> 00:43:57,960 your dog, your parents, your friends, your partner, You are 773 00:43:58,120 --> 00:44:00,280 the key component. Not that you're the most 774 00:44:00,280 --> 00:44:02,880 important, no, no, no. But the only one that you have 775 00:44:02,880 --> 00:44:06,080 influence over. So let's start there. 776 00:44:06,120 --> 00:44:09,080 And yeah, I think when people realise that a lot of them are 777 00:44:09,080 --> 00:44:13,080 like, OK, let's go there. And there's been definitely a 778 00:44:13,080 --> 00:44:15,120 few. When new clients have been like, 779 00:44:15,120 --> 00:44:16,680 yes. And they've got in the room with 780 00:44:16,680 --> 00:44:19,000 a few of me and my clients, and they're like, whoa, I knew it 781 00:44:19,000 --> 00:44:20,960 was going to be deep, but I know it was going to be that deep. 782 00:44:23,720 --> 00:44:26,720 So yeah, so we have cat, we have our horses. 783 00:44:27,560 --> 00:44:29,880 Things aren't going right. How do we know? 784 00:44:29,880 --> 00:44:33,880 The issue is with the relationship between horse and 785 00:44:33,880 --> 00:44:40,040 human and the energies that are being swapped versus an issue 786 00:44:40,040 --> 00:44:43,040 with the horse itself. Maybe the horses back story, 787 00:44:43,280 --> 00:44:45,560 what it's been through before it's come to us. 788 00:44:46,360 --> 00:44:52,280 Yeah, and that's such an amazing place to go because that's the 789 00:44:52,320 --> 00:44:55,920 key is relationship is the foundation. 790 00:44:55,920 --> 00:44:59,360 It's the, I call it the river of relationship because it's like 791 00:44:59,360 --> 00:45:02,240 it's your riverbanks where you and your horse can move together 792 00:45:02,240 --> 00:45:04,280 in a flow, finding that safety together. 793 00:45:04,720 --> 00:45:10,080 It is in its stealth what should be built first to that 794 00:45:10,080 --> 00:45:12,480 achievement between people and their horses, feeling seen, 795 00:45:12,480 --> 00:45:15,200 heard and understood, creating safety together. 796 00:45:15,760 --> 00:45:18,120 That is the layer, the base layer, what you always need to 797 00:45:18,120 --> 00:45:21,400 come back to. It's like with a friend you they 798 00:45:21,400 --> 00:45:23,000 might be amazing. You might be amazing at certain 799 00:45:23,000 --> 00:45:24,400 things. But ultimately if you don't 800 00:45:24,400 --> 00:45:27,280 have, if you can't hear each other and listen to each other 801 00:45:27,280 --> 00:45:29,440 and you don't feel that connection, the friendship 802 00:45:29,440 --> 00:45:31,320 isn't, you don't feel safer than that friendship. 803 00:45:32,000 --> 00:45:33,800 So I think that's what's important to acknowledge is 804 00:45:34,000 --> 00:45:38,040 that's the relationship is always going to be something 805 00:45:38,040 --> 00:45:40,600 that we need to nurture always, continuously. 806 00:45:40,600 --> 00:45:42,320 It's not. It's a practice relationship is 807 00:45:42,320 --> 00:45:44,320 a practice, which is what I learned. 808 00:45:44,320 --> 00:45:46,440 It's not like you build it and then you're like great, that 809 00:45:46,440 --> 00:45:47,640 house is built. Let's go. 810 00:45:47,880 --> 00:45:51,760 It's oh, I've got to keep chipping away and keep growing 811 00:45:51,760 --> 00:45:54,000 and keep changing and keep developing. 812 00:45:54,760 --> 00:45:58,400 But then I also think there's that there's all of the other 813 00:45:58,400 --> 00:46:01,840 pieces that we've got to acknowledge, whereby that's 814 00:46:02,040 --> 00:46:05,160 physically with our horses. Perhaps they have something in 815 00:46:05,160 --> 00:46:09,120 them that doesn't feel safe inside because it's it's telling 816 00:46:09,120 --> 00:46:12,080 their body that there's a danger because they're her or they're 817 00:46:12,080 --> 00:46:15,320 uncomfortable or they're in pain and that influences how they 818 00:46:15,320 --> 00:46:17,840 feel or us. And also. 819 00:46:18,920 --> 00:46:20,840 But the thing I think that you're really touching on here, 820 00:46:20,840 --> 00:46:25,880 which I love to jump into, is our horses have their own 821 00:46:25,880 --> 00:46:29,560 component, too. And just like us with all of our 822 00:46:29,560 --> 00:46:32,600 kind of suitcases of stuff. Baggage. 823 00:46:32,640 --> 00:46:35,200 Yeah, exactly. And some people have a little 824 00:46:35,200 --> 00:46:37,440 handbag, Some people have, like, the whole boat. 825 00:46:37,920 --> 00:46:41,000 And that's fine. Exactly. 826 00:46:41,000 --> 00:46:43,640 You know, we've all got a few suitcases hidden there. 827 00:46:46,360 --> 00:46:50,600 Oh yeah, and extra on EasyJet, people are like, oh, I didn't 828 00:46:50,600 --> 00:46:51,760 even know it's bringing these ones. 829 00:46:51,760 --> 00:46:53,360 I don't even know how they got there. 830 00:46:53,760 --> 00:46:57,560 Our horses also have that too. And it's so important that we 831 00:46:57,760 --> 00:47:00,240 not define them by that because it's like we don't want to be 832 00:47:00,240 --> 00:47:03,520 defined by what we're carrying. Our programming, our 833 00:47:03,520 --> 00:47:07,880 generational things, horses, generationally, how much, how, 834 00:47:07,920 --> 00:47:11,240 how much hurt is there? Generationally, Why is there? 835 00:47:11,400 --> 00:47:14,800 We're all bringing that with us, and especially those my new 836 00:47:14,800 --> 00:47:18,200 pony, she's she's had a difficult past too and it's 837 00:47:18,200 --> 00:47:20,800 going. The reason why I'm becoming a 838 00:47:20,800 --> 00:47:25,160 safe place in my nervous system and my body is so I can help 839 00:47:25,440 --> 00:47:29,160 hold you and just be there and hear you. 840 00:47:29,640 --> 00:47:33,160 And a lot of a big part of what I do is also equine trauma 841 00:47:33,160 --> 00:47:36,280 release, which is something I stumbled on completely by 842 00:47:36,280 --> 00:47:38,920 accident within my massage sessions. 843 00:47:39,480 --> 00:47:45,240 And it is when you feel seen and heard and when you feel safe, 844 00:47:46,200 --> 00:47:49,960 your nervous system naturally enters a place of inner safety 845 00:47:49,960 --> 00:47:53,320 so it can start to heal. And in our horses, we've got to 846 00:47:53,400 --> 00:47:58,200 acknowledge that they are their own component and not it's their 847 00:47:58,200 --> 00:48:01,560 job to fix themselves. No, we are the custodians of 848 00:48:01,560 --> 00:48:03,880 them. We are their caretakers. 849 00:48:04,720 --> 00:48:09,320 We are their partners in this life and going, OK, how can I 850 00:48:09,320 --> 00:48:13,800 hold space for you to help you let go of what you're carrying? 851 00:48:13,880 --> 00:48:17,560 Because it's heavy and it and it does, it means that you can't 852 00:48:17,560 --> 00:48:19,480 connect with me in the way you want to because there's 853 00:48:19,480 --> 00:48:21,800 something from the past that's going not safe. 854 00:48:22,800 --> 00:48:27,680 And I've had the most profound sessions where I've done 855 00:48:27,680 --> 00:48:30,320 nothing. All I've done is I've just 856 00:48:30,320 --> 00:48:34,640 regulated myself and I've taken my ego, my expectations out of 857 00:48:34,640 --> 00:48:37,440 it. And I've just said to them, hey, 858 00:48:38,120 --> 00:48:41,600 I'm here like, I see you and I build up a little bit of 859 00:48:41,600 --> 00:48:45,520 achievement and they go, OK, finally a human is actually 860 00:48:45,520 --> 00:48:47,320 listening rather than just telling me what to do. 861 00:48:48,520 --> 00:48:53,760 And the release that happens and the levels that they are holding 862 00:48:53,760 --> 00:48:57,440 without us even knowing. And I've had horses lie down, 863 00:48:57,440 --> 00:49:02,240 I've had horses roll, shake, have really profound responses 864 00:49:02,240 --> 00:49:05,360 because their body is letting go of stuff that they're holding. 865 00:49:05,840 --> 00:49:09,360 And when your body releases what it's been holding it or it 866 00:49:09,360 --> 00:49:12,520 naturally deepens your capacity for connection because there's 867 00:49:12,520 --> 00:49:16,320 less danger in the way. And that's I love that. 868 00:49:16,360 --> 00:49:20,760 I love that question because it makes us realise that we need to 869 00:49:20,760 --> 00:49:24,440 be that space for our horses more and more so we can see 870 00:49:24,440 --> 00:49:26,400 what's going on and we can help them. 871 00:49:26,400 --> 00:49:29,160 And if there's another issue that needs to be sold, like a 872 00:49:29,160 --> 00:49:33,000 physical or introducing more healing and us or them, we can 873 00:49:33,000 --> 00:49:36,160 see it and we can be aware of it and we can hold it. 874 00:49:36,720 --> 00:49:41,400 And that's the key. It's really wonderful to listen 875 00:49:41,400 --> 00:49:46,280 to and to hear how subtle it is that we don't have to do big 876 00:49:46,280 --> 00:49:49,240 gestures. So for human to human 877 00:49:49,240 --> 00:49:51,720 relationships, like you say, we become almost like a council, 878 00:49:51,720 --> 00:49:53,840 don't we? To our partners, our friends, 879 00:49:53,840 --> 00:49:56,960 our family, when we're all going through tough times and we park 880 00:49:56,960 --> 00:49:59,080 our issues up at the door and we listen and we talk. 881 00:49:59,080 --> 00:50:02,720 Hopefully if things if things are all peaceful and going well, 882 00:50:03,320 --> 00:50:08,440 but with our horses we can just be peaceful and quiet and stand 883 00:50:08,440 --> 00:50:11,920 with them and as you say, just put your hand on them and that 884 00:50:11,920 --> 00:50:16,200 is enough to help our horses with their issues as well. 885 00:50:16,640 --> 00:50:20,320 And a lot of horses I've worked with that have had trauma. 886 00:50:20,360 --> 00:50:22,480 Well, everyone's had trauma or horses or humans, but 887 00:50:22,800 --> 00:50:26,120 significant relational trauma, especially those who have in the 888 00:50:26,120 --> 00:50:30,080 racing industry or those who have had all experiences of 889 00:50:30,120 --> 00:50:32,880 humans not being fair, not being trustworthy, not being safe. 890 00:50:33,920 --> 00:50:36,040 They can't connect, they can't reach out. 891 00:50:36,040 --> 00:50:38,960 There's something in them that's like this very active connection 892 00:50:38,960 --> 00:50:42,920 isn't safe to me. And it's those that you're 893 00:50:42,920 --> 00:50:47,160 almost re helping them heal that by going by. 894 00:50:47,480 --> 00:50:51,400 It's it's building achievement, which is the sense of feeling 895 00:50:51,400 --> 00:50:55,600 seen, had and understood and responding to their emotional 896 00:50:55,600 --> 00:50:59,320 states that they're showing us. So even if it's just they look 897 00:50:59,320 --> 00:51:02,560 away and we just take a step away and we just go, yeah, I saw 898 00:51:02,640 --> 00:51:07,080 you, I noticed that. And just in that very act, it 899 00:51:07,080 --> 00:51:10,600 can be a miniscope, it can be a look away, it can be a turn your 900 00:51:10,600 --> 00:51:13,120 shoulders if you don't want to move your feet, just 901 00:51:13,120 --> 00:51:16,000 acknowledging. Or if they reach out normally 902 00:51:16,000 --> 00:51:19,480 want to go straight up and reach out actually, if we just 903 00:51:19,480 --> 00:51:21,640 mentally go, Yes, thank you. And just look away. 904 00:51:22,680 --> 00:51:26,360 Often these horses, they go like, why is a human listening 905 00:51:26,360 --> 00:51:29,880 to me like this? It's so subtle and so gentle 906 00:51:30,360 --> 00:51:31,600 that it means everything to them. 907 00:51:32,120 --> 00:51:33,200 And we miss. I miss it. 908 00:51:33,200 --> 00:51:35,360 Everyone misses these things all the time because we're not 909 00:51:35,360 --> 00:51:37,520 present enough. And who we are, we're not. 910 00:51:37,640 --> 00:51:39,920 The world is not designed for us to be present, right? 911 00:51:39,920 --> 00:51:43,320 It's like noise everywhere. Radio, phones, we're always 912 00:51:43,320 --> 00:51:46,400 doing something so we aren't able to be present with the 913 00:51:46,400 --> 00:51:48,920 little things. And we want to say if you want 914 00:51:48,920 --> 00:51:50,960 to fix, we want to shape, we want to direct. 915 00:51:51,240 --> 00:51:54,960 Just in that moment. If we can just see them and go, 916 00:51:54,960 --> 00:51:59,200 OK, yeah, I see you often they'll step in and they'll come 917 00:51:59,200 --> 00:52:03,400 back and that that part of them that's wanting connection gets 918 00:52:03,400 --> 00:52:07,640 reignited. I'm wondering, Kat, whether it's 919 00:52:07,640 --> 00:52:10,440 a therapy to you as well, because I think we're slightly 920 00:52:10,440 --> 00:52:13,120 similar in that we're quite extroverted characters and we're 921 00:52:13,120 --> 00:52:18,440 both gesturing wildly, loud voices, big personalities. 922 00:52:18,640 --> 00:52:21,160 But is it therapeutic for you? Because I know for me, when I'm 923 00:52:21,160 --> 00:52:24,800 working with my horses, it gives me a chance to be quiet and just 924 00:52:25,400 --> 00:52:27,680 calm down. My sort of extroverted 925 00:52:27,680 --> 00:52:30,360 tendencies. I don't have to be wildly 926 00:52:30,360 --> 00:52:33,960 animated, I can just be very gentle and quiet, and I enjoy 927 00:52:34,000 --> 00:52:35,280 that. I'm wondering if it's 928 00:52:35,280 --> 00:52:39,880 therapeutic to you as well. Ah, yeah, even nail the head. 929 00:52:39,880 --> 00:52:45,000 And I think yeah, just like you. It's like it's all too easy for 930 00:52:45,000 --> 00:52:47,160 us to. It's who we are. 931 00:52:47,160 --> 00:52:48,600 It's like that. Love it. 932 00:52:49,160 --> 00:52:51,360 I love it so much. I'm always the first one of the 933 00:52:51,360 --> 00:52:53,200 dance floor. Give me a glass of water. 934 00:52:53,200 --> 00:52:57,680 I'm there like that I am. And I think I was having this 935 00:52:57,680 --> 00:53:00,960 conversation with my boyfriend. I got I was like I don't think 936 00:53:00,960 --> 00:53:05,240 you understand that I if I don't have horses in my life, like 937 00:53:05,520 --> 00:53:09,400 it's it's not good. Like my space. 938 00:53:09,760 --> 00:53:13,280 Yeah. I'm like it's not just I want to 939 00:53:13,280 --> 00:53:15,600 be with them. It's like no, no, this is like 940 00:53:15,600 --> 00:53:19,360 this is a genuine issue. If I can't spend that time with 941 00:53:19,360 --> 00:53:23,600 them because they are the I think actually probably one of 942 00:53:23,600 --> 00:53:31,520 the only things the see you the allow you to see the parts of 943 00:53:31,520 --> 00:53:35,600 yourself, those quieter parts, those present parts, those parts 944 00:53:35,600 --> 00:53:39,640 that don't need words to access that and help you put you back 945 00:53:39,640 --> 00:53:42,880 in touch with it. And who you have to become when 946 00:53:42,880 --> 00:53:44,440 you're with them. Especially in the release 947 00:53:44,440 --> 00:53:48,600 sessions, like these are like 2 hour sessions because I need to 948 00:53:48,600 --> 00:53:50,400 give them the space and the time to decompress. 949 00:53:50,720 --> 00:53:54,920 Sometimes I don't say a word, sometimes I barely move and it's 950 00:53:55,000 --> 00:53:59,560 the amount of presence. You almost feel high because you 951 00:53:59,560 --> 00:54:03,560 are so present in that moment and it's like something in you 952 00:54:03,600 --> 00:54:08,720 is just there and when you spend your life, I'm quite ADHD so 953 00:54:08,720 --> 00:54:11,200 I've just got this that this here, this everywhere. 954 00:54:11,200 --> 00:54:17,080 Like I'm very, yeah, it's just and it's that piece that all of 955 00:54:17,080 --> 00:54:19,760 those parts coming together and aligning and you're just here in 956 00:54:19,760 --> 00:54:23,160 that moment. And it is like it is therapy. 957 00:54:23,240 --> 00:54:26,960 It is that kind of coming together of you and your soul 958 00:54:26,960 --> 00:54:29,440 that you don't often give space to. 959 00:54:29,440 --> 00:54:34,160 But when another being is there, so you told space for and with, 960 00:54:34,160 --> 00:54:38,200 and who you have become is that. It's like you come home to 961 00:54:38,200 --> 00:54:42,280 yourself for that moment and then when those two hours are 962 00:54:42,280 --> 00:54:43,920 up, you're back in the car like La La La La. 963 00:54:44,240 --> 00:54:48,360 But you've had that, you've had that and you remember it, and it 964 00:54:48,520 --> 00:54:50,560 comes into who you are. Yes, certainly. 965 00:54:51,680 --> 00:54:55,520 And Kat, for those listening who are inspired by your journey and 966 00:54:55,520 --> 00:54:58,160 your thoughts and your reflections today, what one 967 00:54:58,160 --> 00:55:01,120 piece of ice would you give them that they can take away right 968 00:55:01,120 --> 00:55:05,000 now and put into action to give them a better connection and to 969 00:55:05,000 --> 00:55:07,400 help them build a better connection with their horses? 970 00:55:08,360 --> 00:55:13,400 Oh my goodness, all the places I could go with this, I think. 971 00:55:13,400 --> 00:55:23,160 I'm like I have called me back. I think the power of 972 00:55:25,960 --> 00:55:34,680 observation, because often we are so attached to the moment in 973 00:55:34,680 --> 00:55:39,080 front of us. We are so invested in what we 974 00:55:39,080 --> 00:55:42,400 almost we become. If someone looked at our face, I 975 00:55:42,400 --> 00:55:44,040 know those who are listening can't see me. 976 00:55:44,600 --> 00:55:50,400 We become stern, faced, fixated, even when we want to be being 977 00:55:50,400 --> 00:55:53,120 loving and fun or we want to be light and present with our 978 00:55:53,120 --> 00:55:56,040 horses. Often who we are being is not 979 00:55:56,040 --> 00:55:57,880 that. And that's OK. 980 00:55:58,120 --> 00:56:02,040 And I think going away today and it's something you can do 981 00:56:02,040 --> 00:56:04,400 totally for free, that's not doesn't take time. 982 00:56:05,440 --> 00:56:10,320 But in order to bring that space of safety to your relationship 983 00:56:10,320 --> 00:56:13,600 with yourself and your horse, the first step is always 984 00:56:13,640 --> 00:56:16,640 awareness. Because when you become aware of 985 00:56:16,640 --> 00:56:21,280 something a you remove the judgement, you remove that 986 00:56:21,280 --> 00:56:26,720 attachment and just almost catching it and going, Oh my 987 00:56:26,720 --> 00:56:33,160 God, that's so interesting. And in that moment, for example, 988 00:56:33,160 --> 00:56:34,280 you can notice it about yourself. 989 00:56:34,280 --> 00:56:37,600 Like the other day I noticed with my pony, I can't remember. 990 00:56:37,600 --> 00:56:40,680 I think she walked off and I was like, cool, that's fine. 991 00:56:41,040 --> 00:56:43,240 Unconsciously and unconsciously I went fine. 992 00:56:43,320 --> 00:56:44,560 Everyone always leaves me anyway. 993 00:56:44,760 --> 00:56:49,000 And I was like, wow, isn't that interesting? 994 00:56:49,000 --> 00:56:51,440 Because that would have happened anyway, but it just would have 995 00:56:51,440 --> 00:56:54,040 been under the surface and I never ever would have been aware 996 00:56:54,040 --> 00:56:56,160 of it. And thankfully I've done all 997 00:56:56,160 --> 00:56:58,960 this work now that I don't dive into that because for the rest 998 00:56:58,960 --> 00:57:01,840 of the day I might have been stirring on that somewhere in my 999 00:57:01,840 --> 00:57:03,840 unconscious. And actually, it's all just 1000 00:57:03,840 --> 00:57:06,600 indications. So you can go, wow, OK, isn't 1001 00:57:06,600 --> 00:57:11,320 that interesting? And smile and breathe and and 1002 00:57:11,320 --> 00:57:14,520 then you can meet your horse. So then you can observe things 1003 00:57:14,520 --> 00:57:17,960 about your horse. So, for example, if you're in a 1004 00:57:17,960 --> 00:57:21,640 conversation together and they stop blinking or they stop 1005 00:57:21,640 --> 00:57:27,200 chewing, or you feel in your body an unease or a block or 1006 00:57:27,200 --> 00:57:30,720 just paying attention to, you're always connected with your horse 1007 00:57:30,720 --> 00:57:34,720 on a nervous system level, even if that's in a dysregulating 1008 00:57:34,720 --> 00:57:36,360 way. You're both losing it bit by bit 1009 00:57:36,360 --> 00:57:40,480 together, or you're becoming that safe space for your horse 1010 00:57:40,480 --> 00:57:42,200 to match you and come back to and regulate. 1011 00:57:42,560 --> 00:57:45,320 There's no no good or bad, it's just how it is. 1012 00:57:45,320 --> 00:57:49,120 And notice what's your horse's eyes doing? 1013 00:57:49,200 --> 00:57:52,240 Have they not taken a breath? Have they gone a little bit 1014 00:57:52,240 --> 00:57:53,840 quiet? Have they shut down a little bit 1015 00:57:53,840 --> 00:57:55,640 or are they needing to bite something? 1016 00:57:55,640 --> 00:58:01,160 Are they and just going OK and acknowledging and just taking 1017 00:58:01,160 --> 00:58:08,000 that step away and going OK, I see you and I'm here and just 1018 00:58:08,000 --> 00:58:14,440 seeing if there's any shift, if they start to blink or release 1019 00:58:15,000 --> 00:58:18,440 and giving yourself space and time to do that. 1020 00:58:19,280 --> 00:58:22,360 And if you're in a busy session, maybe it's 5 minutes at the 1021 00:58:22,360 --> 00:58:24,200 beginning that you just be with your horse. 1022 00:58:24,240 --> 00:58:29,680 You just notice these things and you start to regulate you first 1023 00:58:29,680 --> 00:58:34,960 and give yourself space first to come to the session from a 1024 00:58:34,960 --> 00:58:38,560 different space rather than in the energy that you've come into 1025 00:58:38,560 --> 00:58:42,240 from the day you've brought with you have a little gap where you 1026 00:58:42,240 --> 00:58:44,080 just go for this 5 minutes. I'm just going to observe 1027 00:58:44,200 --> 00:58:47,320 myself, my horse and just see what happens and I think you'll 1028 00:58:47,320 --> 00:58:50,400 be amazed at what comes through and what you learn about 1029 00:58:50,400 --> 00:58:53,440 yourself and your horse. So yeah, that's my little tip. 1030 00:58:54,920 --> 00:58:58,440 And focusing on you cat and your hopes and dreams, how do you 1031 00:58:58,440 --> 00:59:01,080 hope that your methods will evolve in the future? 1032 00:59:01,080 --> 00:59:04,880 And also what are your aims and your hopes and your dreams in 1033 00:59:05,000 --> 00:59:09,560 terms of equine therapy and and equine psychology in the future? 1034 00:59:09,840 --> 00:59:13,000 Yeah, I think, and I it's really amazing that this question came 1035 00:59:13,000 --> 00:59:13,720 up here. Every question. 1036 00:59:13,720 --> 00:59:15,280 I'm like, what's my question? Thank you. 1037 00:59:17,240 --> 00:59:24,760 I I realized the other day that I was like, I I love, I love 1038 00:59:24,800 --> 00:59:26,800 what I do. I sometimes just cry in a 1039 00:59:26,800 --> 00:59:30,480 session because I'm just like, oh, I just love what I just 1040 00:59:30,480 --> 00:59:33,000 love. Connecting humans and horses in 1041 00:59:33,000 --> 00:59:34,760 this deeper way. And it's such a gift. 1042 00:59:35,600 --> 00:59:40,800 But what I realised was how I I didn't realise how desperately 1043 00:59:40,800 --> 00:59:44,160 needed it is for all of us in every single walk of life. 1044 00:59:44,640 --> 00:59:48,440 It goes way further than just with our horses. 1045 00:59:48,840 --> 00:59:55,480 It is creating a safer world, actually, and how the lessons 1046 00:59:55,480 --> 00:59:58,880 that we can learn from our horses and ourselves for 1047 00:59:58,880 --> 01:00:05,200 ourselves is. How can we change our industry, 1048 01:00:05,200 --> 01:00:08,240 our world of horses, of whatever shape or form? 1049 01:00:08,240 --> 01:00:11,560 We do it in modality. There's so much judgement there 1050 01:00:12,480 --> 01:00:17,000 and there's so much toxicity and there's so much we think that 1051 01:00:17,040 --> 01:00:20,960 people change because we judge. Whereas actually what this work 1052 01:00:20,960 --> 01:00:25,880 teaches us is what changes the most is being seen and being 1053 01:00:25,880 --> 01:00:28,040 heard and being understood. Even if someone doesn't agree 1054 01:00:28,040 --> 01:00:30,880 with you, even if they don't live by that with you, it's 1055 01:00:30,880 --> 01:00:33,800 knowing that relationship always comes first. 1056 01:00:33,800 --> 01:00:37,440 If it's with another, even if it's with that person that you 1057 01:00:37,720 --> 01:00:40,480 like the least or whatever. It's changing the narrative of 1058 01:00:40,560 --> 01:00:44,400 the equestrian world, our world, how we go about our life. 1059 01:00:45,280 --> 01:00:48,680 Because the horses show us that actually underneath it all, 1060 01:00:48,720 --> 01:00:52,840 we're just mammals who deeply need to connect, who deeply need 1061 01:00:52,840 --> 01:00:57,640 to nourish their relationships. And we aren't cooperating like 1062 01:00:57,640 --> 01:01:00,480 that in the world. And I think the world that the 1063 01:01:00,480 --> 01:01:03,520 work that I'm doing and and I'm gifted. 1064 01:01:03,520 --> 01:01:06,480 I feel like I'm gifted this journey to be sharing. 1065 01:01:06,480 --> 01:01:08,760 It's about weaving in with what we already do. 1066 01:01:08,760 --> 01:01:11,840 All of those moments in the day where we can attune to someone 1067 01:01:11,840 --> 01:01:16,320 or we can attune to ourselves. And when we nurture ourselves 1068 01:01:16,560 --> 01:01:19,760 and we let go of some of the stuff that we're carrying, that 1069 01:01:19,760 --> 01:01:22,240 changes the world. Because if everyone did that, 1070 01:01:22,680 --> 01:01:26,720 we, our horses, would not know that, you know, they would have 1071 01:01:26,720 --> 01:01:29,720 completely different humans, completely different world to 1072 01:01:29,720 --> 01:01:31,280 wake up in. We would have a completely 1073 01:01:31,280 --> 01:01:34,520 different world to wake up in when we do the work on ourselves 1074 01:01:34,520 --> 01:01:37,200 and taking it, taking it seriously and going, OK, if I 1075 01:01:37,200 --> 01:01:41,840 want to live more connected, more free, more enriched, more 1076 01:01:41,840 --> 01:01:45,720 expressed, more safe existence, that's where I need to start. 1077 01:01:45,720 --> 01:01:49,320 Because if I want my horse to feel safe, this is the world 1078 01:01:49,320 --> 01:01:52,120 that I want to create for them. And I really believe that this 1079 01:01:52,120 --> 01:01:55,040 is the way to start and it's the foundation of everything. 1080 01:01:56,840 --> 01:02:00,760 Oh, Kat, thank you so much for such a wonderful conversation 1081 01:02:00,760 --> 01:02:04,720 and such an inspiring discussion about your journey and what 1082 01:02:04,720 --> 01:02:08,800 you're doing in in present times as well to change the lives of 1083 01:02:08,800 --> 01:02:12,600 your horses that you work with and yourself and also hopefully 1084 01:02:12,600 --> 01:02:14,080 have that trickle effect as well. 1085 01:02:14,080 --> 01:02:15,360 So thank you so much for coming on. 1086 01:02:15,360 --> 01:02:18,680 The podcast, thank you so much. I absolutely loved it. 1087 01:02:18,800 --> 01:02:20,280 I've absolutely loved it. Thank you. 1088 01:02:21,920 --> 01:02:24,800 For those listening who want to find you and follow you and get 1089 01:02:24,800 --> 01:02:26,680 in touch, how can they do that cat? 1090 01:02:27,400 --> 01:02:33,720 So you can find me on my social medias so at balance and align 1091 01:02:33,800 --> 01:02:38,400 equine for those of you on Instagram or Facebook and you 1092 01:02:38,400 --> 01:02:41,080 know you can on my website as well. 1093 01:02:41,080 --> 01:02:45,680 So it's www.bansonline.com or for those of you who want to 1094 01:02:45,680 --> 01:02:48,880 reach out, and please do reach out because I love hearing from 1095 01:02:48,880 --> 01:02:52,760 everyone and hearing you know your story with your horse and 1096 01:02:52,760 --> 01:02:55,960 and you know where you're at is my e-mail, which is 1097 01:02:56,040 --> 01:02:58,360 catherine@balancealign.com. Don't. 1098 01:03:03,560 --> 01:03:03,960 Believe it there.