You're listening to the Curious Equestrian podcast, produced by
Horsemanship Journal magazine and hosted by me, Anna Louise.
Through this podcast, we delve into the enigmatic world of
horses, approaching every experience with empathy and a
sense of wonder. Bringing together trainers,
behaviourists and horse owners, each sharing personal, exciting
stories that deepen our connection to these majestic
animals, we unfold diverse stories of horses and their
people, stories that inspire the challenge and transform us.
Join as we traverse the depths of equine behaviour and
psychology, where curiosity leads the way and every horse
has a tale to tell, Enriched by a variety of human experiences,
insights and voices. This is the Curious Equestrian
and today's guest is Cat Roy Stanley, an equine sports
massage therapist. She's the founder of Balance and
Align, and Cat also hosts the Equicentral Podcast.
She has a passion for horses and a lifelong love of all
equestrian pursuits. In her work, she focuses on the
relationship that you're building with your horses, the
strengths and the challenges that we might be facing in our
partnerships. So we delve in this episode into
so many different interesting ideas.
We think about our energy when we enter the field or the arena.
We think about the baggage that we're carrying around in life
and how that might affect our horses, cat die, sex,
communication and relationship difficulties that she's faced
with her horses and her own personal healing journey that
inspired her to go on. We hear all about cats
adventures in Ghana training and working with the military's
problem horses, and we find out how we can work on ourselves and
be honest with ourselves in order to have healthier
relationships with our animals. Kat, welcome to the Curious
Equestrian podcast. Hello so nice to be here.
Take us back, cat, to the moment when you first fell in love with
horses in your childhoods. I was actually writing an Arthur
on this the other day and it really brought me back because
it's always the moment before when you sing.
And for me, I was really little. And we used to drive past these
horses on the side of the road. They weren't actually on the
side of the roads, on a field, on the side of the road.
And I seem to remember I I think I pretty much, I'd like my
parents as a child to pull over and let me feed them apples.
And there was three in a field and I was determined.
And I thought they were my horses.
Like I I used to have got a picture of me as a tiny little
girl with looking up at this massive head.
I think it was a Clydesdale or something.
And there was a big one, a medium one and a small one.
And I thought it was the daddy, the mummy and the baby.
And I just sit there and I just remember honestly, that child
perspective. And I hold the apple in my hand
and they would just come over and they were so soft and gentle
and they just take it from me. Now I know it's not good to feed
the horses, but at the time, no. Did not.
Oh no, very bad. And I just felt so much joy in
that moment and I didn't feel scared at all.
And I was so little. And they their their head was
probably as big as me. And I used to ask every week I'd
make my parents go back there. And I remember being like, I
can't believe these are someone else's horses.
They're either mine or they're wild.
Like, why would these beautiful things have another purpose
other than having apples from me and just living their life?
And it really confused me. But I remember just feeling this
connection with them and them feeling so powerful and so
strong and so present. But I felt completely safe.
So that was when I first connected with horses.
It's interesting, as kids we often have that moment, don't
we, Where we first come into contact with horses.
For me it was a horse that lived through a woodland.
And again, he wasn't anything to do with me, but I gave him a
name. I called him Mighty.
It's a. Huge.
I imagine it was like a big Friesian horse now and I
actually try and remember what sort of breed he was.
I used to feed him carrots and now I think, Oh my gosh, I'm the
owner that bangs in signs saying do not feed.
Donuts, You know your. Kindness may kill them, but now
I think, gosh, what was I doing? But we all have that instant
moment where they captured our hearts.
When did you get to own your own ponies and horses?
Yeah, it was not a till a long time later.
I think they captivated my heart then.
And when you're a child and you sing.
I know everything about horses now.
We have connected. We are the same.
And I again pretty much pestered with might my parents to give me
riding lessons and I lost it. I lost my way with it.
I had this connection with them. But I it wasn't until I was at
14 I got my own pony because I was so desperate for that
connection back. You know, and and I felt the
more I the more time I spent with horses in a rhino school
setting when you're taught to ride, the more I they didn't
want to be with me and the more that connection felt further
away. Because the modality of the time
I was spending with them was me telling them what to do, me
being demanding, me being impatient, me being a child that
wanted it my own way. Why weren't they cantering
properly? Why weren't they?
It was all about what I want. And of course these poor horses
who have got had fifty kids in the day, getting on them and
telling them what to do and probably not being very patient
or understanding or soft or gentle, I was like, why don't
they like me? Why don't they connect with me
if I want to connect with them. And so in my very naive state, I
thought, oh, it's because they're not my horse.
That'll solve it. So I again pretty much pitch to
my family who aren't horsey, get me a horse.
When I was, I think I was in year 10 at the time and I was, I
watched War Horse, I was like, you know what, we're going to
have that connection. It's going to be he will find me
in war because he's mine and I bought and yeah I bought my my
my my family were kind enough to buy me a little Welsh section D
He was three and I had no experience in starting horses or
anything like that. I just knew how to tack them up
at the head collar and get on and ride thought that was
everything. So you can see this type of
things go crashing down quite quickly.
And I think I was faced with that moment of, oh, I have my
own horse and yet I don't feel like I did when I was holding
that apple with the ones when I was a child.
He didn't want to be with me because I'm not nice to be
around. So yeah, that was when I got my
first horse. And tell us about the connection
you were seeking, because it's really interesting.
A lot of people head to riding schools to get a connection and
to get some contact with horses when they otherwise can't.
But what was it that you were really craving from a horse?
I mean I think it's such an amazing question and I think
it's one we need to go back to time and time again of the what
because it and the more I know now is it's a deeper need that
we so our need for relationship and our need for connection
through being seen and also seeing it goes both ways, it's
that I can't remember. It's a reciprocity of connection
that you feel like you are able to speak without words to
another being and see them for who they are and for them to
mirror back and see you for who you are and give that depth or
part connection that horses are so brilliant at because they're
so present and just then they're being is relationship be just
like us. But we've lost that along the
way. And I think so many people seek
out horses for a deeper reason. We're almost called to them, I
think, because they offer that mirror to us and.
Yeah. And when we often struggle to
find it along the way and. And yeah, I think that is what
we're all searching for is that thing seen and seen, heard and
understood on a much, much deeper level than what we might
get or what we might actually I think we're getting, if that
makes sense. It does.
So what happened? We're all left on tenterhooks
wondering what this 14 year old with a Welsh section D that
didn't want to talk to her, didn't want to know.
Unbroken 3 year old. What did you do next when you
realised actually? You can just picture it, kind
of. She's not there.
Yeah. And I think it's very fair to
say I I literally have this business picture of me in my
head, like, you've got the pony home.
You've got the things you're like, my journey's about to
begin. And then for starters, I
couldn't even catch him. So I was just in the field like,
OK, they say it might take a few days.
And yeah, it's just this teenager who almost has her
world crumble around her. It's like everything just kind
of, you know, that moment where you're like everything.
I know everything I thought I knew.
I don't think he's right or is not right.
Going forwards. What on earth do I do now?
And I think it it was hard. It was really hard and I was not
perfect. And I think that's what's really
important is knowing that I did the best with what I could at
the time and I was determined to find another way.
And I think I had a lot of aha moments in the darkness, which
we all do when we're almost run out of answers.
We're forced to look in other places and we're forced to get
real with ourselves and and allow to look at parts of
ourselves that we didn't want to before.
And I think it dawned on me that yes, OK people would look at him
and go he's naughty, he is, he bites and he run like all of
these things. He wasn't an easy in quotes for
those who are listening pony to manage.
So IA part of me wanted to be like it's all his fault and I
got the wrong one. But actually, I think a part of
me knew that he was just showing me parts of myself that I hadn't
yet healed. And I needed to listen better
and I needed to learn quick and I needed to understand what he
was telling me so that I could help him and I could help him
feel understood. Because the more I wasn't
understanding him, the more scared and reactive and stress
he got. And I went on an incredible
path. Or I started studying psychology
at school. I started to realise that
there's more to us than the horses that meets the eye.
There's a whole unconscious mind and there's a whole world out
there that when you on when you see it, you're like, I can't
Unsee this now All of I, I'd go home and I'd practice all the
little theories that I learned in school.
And I'd found I know I was such a little nerd.
I was OK. Do they say if I give you a
treat when you do this, you'll do it again?
Like all these kind of very, very basic kind of stuff.
And it just opened my mind and I discovered one natural
horsemanship techniques and learning about my energy.
What was my energy saying when I was around him?
And it was a long road. It was a long road and it was
one with many turns and many glimpses of peace, but mostly
just chaos. But in the end, I think I just
stuck with it, and I kept uncovering the pages.
Even when it was hard to read and hard to hear, when I didn't
know what the next day would bring.
I just started to have compassion for him and myself
and to stop trying to be something that we're not and to
stop being the perfect ones on the yard and just embracing
that. OK, there's the teenager that's
a bit of a hot mess, and the pony that's a hot mess, but
they're trying hard. Yeah.
And in the end, give. Up on him, I think.
I never. Gave up of what?
Happens with horses is not quite what we're after.
It's not great fits and horses passed from owner to owner, but
you thought I'm going to stick it out here and and change my
way of being and thinking and behaving.
Yeah, yeah. And I think I didn't want to
give up on myself as well because I knew that it was in
him and I knew that was in me. But we were both misunderstood
and that's hard to go through that and there was times my mum
came up and she said they used to fight the two kids in the
playground and we wouldn't look at each other and be like, oh
for God's sake, and but in the end we grew up together and
found our way, even if it was just learning how to communicate
together, even if it was learning how to read each other
and understand each other. And we were best friends in the
end. But it wasn't an easy pass, but
it was the path I needed to take.
And what did you learn from psychology in class about
humans, and how did that translate to your work with
horses? Yeah, I think that's an amazing
question and I think I became a real nerd and I just went on to
study in university even as my after my period passed, I was
like, I need to learn more about what is going on in in the heads
of ours and the bodies of ours. And I think what I learned was
we always think we have the answers, but we aren't even
aware of what we do on a daily basis.
We aren't aware of how what our face is doing or how we're
feeling or how we're responding. Because when it's you, you can't
see it. And there's so much, there's so
much in our nervous system. There's so much in what our body
is telling others and the horses and each other about how we're
being even without opening our mouth.
I think that's that. What stuck with me is that we
think we're in control of so much about how we're acting.
The point where we can say to someone, yeah, I'm fine, but
actually your nervous system has already communicated that you're
not fine without you even intending to.
And that's what has carried me through in my work.
And and understanding that underneath it all we just want
to be understood and the power of that it's not just a oh it's
lovely and woo woo. It's a fundamental need that we
have for our emotional, our psychological, our physiological
well-being is we need to exist in relationships and that is
really powerful and learning how the brain works and the body and
how it all works together. We try and separate ourselves
into this and that is actually we are the way that our nervous
system feels. It orchestrates everything else,
including in our horses. So when we start to understand
that, we can come to it from a way different approach of
understanding rather than judging and being confused, just
being excited. I think that's what really stuck
out for me. And how do you talk about that
energy, which is really interesting, isn't it?
Because. When we meet.
People, we pick up on different energies, whether someone might
be and a bit more aggressive and we might retreat or someone
might be very enthusiastic and we might think, oh, that's a lot
of energy coming at me, or you can sense nervousness and
anxiousness. How do you shift your energy
with your horse when inevitably you're going to get stressed
about work or worried about something in your personal life?
Hell yeah. And I think this is such an
amazing question. Like, I love it.
And I think we can all listen to this and go, yes, I hear, I get
it, I hear it. But actually, in that moment
when you've had an awful day, like my tire popped yesterday
and I could feel it in myself, You know, even all this work
that you do, you're like, it's you don't start meditating when
the house is burning down. You don't.
No, it's about knowing. Yeah, you can't.
It's not the moment when your horse has gone.
Oh my God, there's a really scary thing coming.
A dog's running towards me and I can't handle myself.
And then we go, Oh, yeah, there's this thing, look, Cat
told me a while ago, Let's practice it now.
And you're like, your nervous system's already gone.
It's gone. And I think it's being
compassionate with the world that we live in and the world we
put our horses in. It's like if not easy guys like
the amount of stress and dysregulation we're around on a
daily basis is insane and going OK.
How can I see this and how can I firstly regulate myself?
Because when we go into a stressful situation and we
expect ourselves to cope, so we've had a stressful day at
work, it was late, it's raining our horses on edge, we our
nervous system is automatically going to disregulate and unless
we put in the muscle work beforehand.
So it's going taking our relationship with ourselves
really seriously, not in a serious way, but knowing that
we've got to be consistent, we've got to be on it with how
we learn to regulate ourselves in day-to-day life, creating
space for that, just like we practice riding before we go on
a jumping course. If someone Oh yeah, I've had one
or two lessons, let's go cross country.
You'd be like whoa, whoa, whoa, let's just take it back a few
steps. It's going.
I can't expect my body to to regulate when I'm on the cross
country course if I haven't done my stirrup work, whatever, or if
I haven't built up a relate a language of myself or my horse.
It's about attuning to who you are, how you're feeling and
nurturing your relationship with yourself so that you're building
up that feeling of safety within.
Because when you feel safe, your horse goes, OK, I know that my
human feels safe right now. And that's without words.
You don't need to tell them that.
That's just your beingness. It's like when you have a
conversation with someone who feels grounded, you
automatically go. Whereas if there's that person
on the yard that's a little bit, you know, gets a bit stressed
and gets a bit all over the place, yeah.
Even when they arrive, the Hell's yeah.
And I hold my hands up like, I've been that in the past.
And you're almost going like, why is my heart being really
fast? Because nervous systems speak.
That is amazing and I guess that really does help a background in
working with horses and people. Understanding yourself.
Understanding how people operate because horses, as much as they
do, exist in in the wilderness, we now see them, don't we?
Alongside their owners. That's how we usually all mix in
big herds of horses and people. How do you think your background
in psychology then paved the way and worked alongside your
natural horsemanship techniques? Yeah, again amazing question and
I think I find it hilarious how firstly I I was so obsessed with
horses that I went to study human psychology.
Like why I was like it wasn't even a question for me.
That's just what I wanted to do. And so there's a psycho they're
subconscious thing of. I knew that it it comes back to
us firstly and I think it just it gives you a different
perspective and it's like you're you're trying to cook this
amazing dish. Or you're you're building that
with your horse, and it's one that needs a lot of different
ingredients, a lot of different approaches, and the more you can
pick from different things, the more nourishing your meal's
going to be, the more nourishing a relationship's going to be
with your horse. And I do think in psychology, a
lot of it is quite left brained, which is very funny because we
can know it all, but we don't live it.
And I think I really had to catch myself with that because
you can know a lot, like you can know a lot about the left brain,
the right brain, you can know a lot about emotional versus
rational or your mammalian brain or your actinian brain, your
flight fight systems, you can know it all, which.
But actually I would say that it made me realize how you have to
live it. So it's a different approach.
Your question of it did really help me, but it made me realise
that knowing stuff isn't everything, It's actually
becoming it and weaving it in and bringing it into practice.
So I guess my horsemanship was me bringing my books into real
life because I could read about the rough fight flight system or
I could read about the safety or the shutdown or I could go,
yeah, I get it and I could get top marks on it.
But when I'm with my horse in that moment, I can't go.
Hey man, I need you to listen to me.
You're you're getting a little bit too emotional hair and it's
actually, it's just a BIM. So I need you to just breathe.
And that doesn't compute. So it's it was bringing it into
practice. So I'd actually think my
horsemanship made my psychology deeper.
And tell us. You've got to tell us, Kat,
about your adventures in Ghana. What inspired you to take the
trip and to go and work with military horses?
Oh, I love that you brought this up because I just love.
I think Garner was the trip that made me because I just lost my
pony and I was going that do I quit forever.
When you've lost that horse that's really brought you so
much and made you who you are, and it almost feels so painful
to continue the journey with another or in a different way or
to imagine your life without them.
And to bring, it's almost like you're starting the next
chapter. And it's really painful to
imagine doing that without the person that made the beginning
of the book. And I was at university at the
time and I was like, I'm done with the UK.
I'm just at that point where I was like, I don't know who I am.
I thought I knew this all about me and I'm still a hot mess.
So I know who's ever had that before, honestly.
So I was like, I'm not even joking, I went, I've got a
placement year in my university, so that's just included in my
course. A lot of people went to normal
things, so they did educational psychology, occupational
psychology, they went to work in clinical settings in London and
really amazing things. And I was like, I'm Googling.
I thought I wanted to do sports psychology.
Now the horses are a part of this journey.
I was like, I know I want to do sport psychology.
I'm done with the UK. Let's just Google.
I'm just going to Google, see what happens.
So I googled sport psychology placements abroad.
The first thing that came up, yeah, was Ghana.
I didn't know where it was. My geography is not.
I studied psychology, for reason not.
Geography, Ghana was. Nothing.
I honestly didn't even know. As an African, this is how much
of AI can get a stars. But I don't have common sense.
I went to my mum. I was like, mum, I'm moving to
Africa for a year. I'm moving to Ghana.
She was like, do you know, could you point out on a map?
I was like, no, but I'm going there, bless her, she was like,
OK, she's doing this. Looking back, I'm like, thank
you Mum, because that's a crazy decision to allow your child,
who clearly has no sense direction to move to Africa for
a year and trust that she'll come back alive.
So yeah, so I went and I worked with sports psychology, I worked
with the football team and I learnt a lot, I learnt a lot
about communication, teamwork, how you can know all the skills.
If you do not believe in yourself to get a goal, you
won't and you can have it all. But if that belief that you are
enough isn't there, you won't score.
And they were incredible, and they taught me incredible
lessons. I just had this feeling of
horses, this yearning for horses.
And I got into university writing a personal statement
about horses, which is hilarious, doing human
psychology. And I met a friend through
another friend who was like, hey, cat, we're going to start
an equine project. And I was like, what?
She knew nothing about me to know horses.
Horsey. And I was like, you know,
there's some creepy stuff going on here, but I'm in.
I said yes. And she was like, oh, it's with
the military's horses. And I went and I spent six
months with the military's horses and they literally handed
me an unbroken 2 year old problem horse.
This is inverted commas who whenever anyone touched him,
he'd rear up and hit him in the face or he'd run away or he
would, he'd just very scared, misunderstood, flighty.
And the way that they'd initiated the training with him
was very forceful. So everything he knew about
humans was like, they're not safe.
And I had my little rope with me.
My little halter didn't even have a stick.
And they went, here you go, like, OK, yeah.
And I had 10 weeks. With the unbroken 2 year old.
Cry a lot. I had no one else to help me
like my good friend. She thankfully did horsemanship,
so she was amazing. I still work with him today, the
most incredible charity of Kaaba volunteers, and she helped me
and I just had to pick my soul off the floor every day because
it was like, he scared me so much because he felt like he
just run me over. I didn't know all of the holes
in my horsemanship, in my belief in myself came up and if I
didn't trust myself, he couldn't trust me.
And I'd go home every night crying because I'd be like, I've
realised this about myself. I've realised that I don't trust
people. I've realised that I don't know
how to set boundaries. I've realised that I don't know
how to. All of these things came up that
I thought I dealt with and I went to the depths of my soul
every evening and I'd look up, I'd pick up Pirelli videos, I'd
look up horsemanship, I'd look up anything that I could find.
And my 4th friend got so fed up of me using all the Internet
because I'd be looking up palsy videos and bit by bit we
developed a communication, a friendship.
It was as much me learning as he was learning, and by the end of
it we were running together. We we just had this bond of he
felt so safe with me. I was the only person who could
bring him in from the field like and it was there and to this day
he's one of their best ridden horses.
Like he is just kind to everyone.
They love him. His name's spirit, but they call
him iron because they feel like he's so strong and he truly
changed my life Truly, truly. So that's that was gone A.
Turning point with spirit, when did he change from that rearing,
punching in the face, Dangerous Scary horse to you, to actually
the breakthrough moment of thinking we've got a connection
building here? Yeah, and I've actually, I've
got, I made a little video about it.
I'll I'll send it to you off as you can share.
But I think it was a few weeks in, I just had to keep showing
up and it's like when everything's going wrong, when
you don't know what the day is going to bring, you don't know
if you're doing it right. You just keep showing up and
believing and shifting within yourself.
And I think it was a few weeks where he just would see me
before. It was like trying to have a
conversation with someone that was like, seeing red.
They just, they didn't want to connect.
They couldn't connect. It was too much.
It was too dangerous. And I remember there was one
day, I think it's probably 2 weeks in, he looked at me and he
went, oh, you're with me. You see me.
And I was like, hi. And I used to feel really
uncomfortable when you'd come in close because you just don't
know when they're that reactive. And I remember going, OK, just
breathe. And I was like, let's meet him
where he's at. And I just came over and I put
my, my hand on him and I was like, OK, hey, buddy, I'm here
to help. And it was tiny moments of that.
Then he'd be off and it'd be another whole song and the dance
and I'd be like, please, it's fine, OK.
And they'd just be tiny moments along the way.
And they just started getting bigger and bigger.
And then to the point where we could go around or I could ask
him for a tiny little backup and he would see me and go, Oh my
God, I understand what she's asking.
I get it. And then he'd come and engage
with me, or he'd want to be with me.
And it was that relationship. That's what that it was, that
moment that the IT was the relationship.
Rather than me trying to fix him or me trying to make him feel a
certain way, it was just me going, I'm here for you, buddy,
and we're figuring this out together.
Yeah. I'm feeling that connection as
well, I think so often in the world of equestrianism, we're
looking for results, aren't we? We're looking for visual
progress, but actually often it's feeling the connection or
feeling that relationship building that we should be
looking out for in a way. Yeah.
And it's so true, isn't it? Because even me, I was like, oh,
we'll fix, We'll, I'll fix him or we'll be able to do this by
the end of the time. And I just because it was such a
humble experience and I just had to completely let that go and
say whatever will be. And it brought me to tears, the
depths of that relationship, because I'd never even with my
pony, I think I I had an an expectation in mind.
Never in my life had I been in a place where I felt like the
outsider and I could just completely go OK, Even if I just
have a moment of relationship with you in these six months or
however many weeks we're together, that's enough.
And I think that's what we've lost as humans.
We go to our phones for connection because we deeply
yearn for that. It's a feeling and we're going
to it in so many different places to try and find it.
And we're not getting it because.
And now we're losing touch with it, which is why it feels so
hard with our horses sometimes, because we're taught to look for
something, not feel it. That's so true.
And when you were working with these military horses and with
spirits, what were you told you had to achieve with him?
You know what you were going for and what you wanted and and what
you wanted to feel and and the progress you wanted to make.
But did you have to box tick anything along the way?
I'm so yes and no. I think no nowhere near as much
as we would box tick. I love that about them actually.
The because there there no one was like I know what to do and I
know how to do it better, which is what I think we're all guilty
of especially in the horse music world and in the UK and many
places in the world is we want to control and micromanage and
often put too many tick boxes so that we lose the magic of the
journey. And I really appreciated that
about them because I think they saw me as a professional.
I think they saw me as like I got handed the under seventeens
youth national team in Ghana like a football team.
They were like, oh you're a professional, here you go, give
them a speech. And I was like, I know nothing
about football. Here we go.
Like, they just go. Yep.
You you must be a professional. Here you go.
And obviously, you know, can't endorse that all the time, but
in that moment, I think I was so blessed enough for them to go,
OK, we can't do anything with this horse, so we're just going
to leave her to it. And I fell at peace because I
could work my way through things.
It didn't look perfect. If someone filmed it and posted
it online, people would be like, Oh my God, what's going on
there? But I was able to make mistakes
and I was able to have the freedom of figuring it out as I
go. And yes, they wanted a ridden
horse at the end of it, but it I never felt that pressure and I
never. And I was very clear of them,
like what we were doing and the this.
I just needed to help him feel safe. 1st and I spent weeks out
there and they're probably looking at me like, OK, crazy
ladies out there again. But I never felt judged and I
never felt criticized. And yeah, there wasn't the tick
boxes. Oh, he needs to be doing this
now. He needs to be.
We need to be putting a saddle on him now.
It just came organically and that meant I could do it with
his yeses rather than going, hey buddy, we've got to do this by
the other than a week because tick, tick, tick, tick.
No, it's not putting the relationship for.
And there was many horses I worked with there.
Another one who was a horse called Zara, who they call her
the Devil's horse. Not very nice because she just
was like, I can't handle humans and they wanted her to be
ridden. That was a tick box.
But in that moment, I was confident enough.
This was a year after of going, hey guys, let's just take it
back. Let's just come back.
And then the magic started to happen.
So yeah. So you learnt as well, a lot
from the Ghanaian military. You learnt that they put less
box ticks in place than we perhaps do, less pressure maybe
than we do in the equestrian industry over here.
Did you learn anything else from their way of going and from
their way of being around horses?
That is a very good question. I think I it was really funny
because I had never spent that many, that much time with as
many boys or men in my life as when I went to Ghana.
Like obviously I lived with 30 football players from the age of
9 to 20. Then I went to work and with the
military and I'd I'd come from a very female oriented place.
And I think it was really enlightening for me, actually,
because I realized how much simpler, like, they're not in a
bad way and actually really lovely way of how much we can
overcomplicate things and put in motions.
And and almost we don't see each other because we're so
judgmental about each other. That's all really.
And they were so embracing. They were some of the most
beautiful people I've ever met. And they'd be like in the
military with a massive gun truck, taking things very
seriously. They're like, yes, can't laugh.
They would just sing with me. They would dance with me.
They'd laugh. I'd say hi to everyone.
And I felt really safe with them.
And I had this lightness and this and this mix of boundary,
this. Yeah, I'm the military, but
there's also such a playfulness about it and I think that's the
biggest thing I learnt from them was fun.
And that's such a crazy thing to say because you think and
discipline, no doubt. Some of the things they were
telling me they had to do for training and how serious it got
and how much they had to do and yet they had so much joy in
them. And one particular guy called
Bwate, who used to run the stables.
We'd just laugh and laugh, and yet I always felt safe of them,
like they had my back and yet they were able to laugh when
something went wrong. They had a camel on site.
We just used to chat the camel. And that's a really unexpected
lesson actually of and also how much shit can get done.
Excuse my friend when you actually have no idea what
you're doing, when you have a mission and a goal and you just
make it happen. And I was like, well, OK, OK,
And it's really interesting lessons, but they were
wonderful. How did you leave Spirit behind
when you had to come back to the UK?
Oh, it was one of the hardest things I've had to do one of the
hardest things. And I think when you've started
a horse in that way and they've become the first human that
you've that they've trusted. I think a bit.
A big part of me wanted to move there.
Not going to lie. I think I was like, once I'm
done with the UNI, we're going back and the guys that stay.
We used to call him my horse and I'd be like, how much would it
cost to fly him over to England. It was really tough.
And I think it's because of that relationship that you can't
explain to them why you're going or where you're going or helping
them go. Hey, it's OK.
You're in good hands and I've loved my time with you and I
know they've seen it. You can tell them and share
them, share that with you, but at the end of the day you have.
I just had to let go and be OK with whatever was meant to be in
his journey was meant to be. And knowing that the start that
we had together, if that had opened him up for connections in
the future and for him to be understood more and treated more
gently because his behaviour was more gentle when and he could
communicate rather than just explode.
I think I had to find peace in that and know that we can't
control the journeys of every single horse and human and it's
the hardest thing we'll ever have to do when you've got that
depth of relationship. But going on taking your lessons
with me and I'm going to use them to change people's lives
and horses lives, and you have changed me as a person and I
hopefully I've changed you. There was tough.
I crippled a lot and I I've been back a few times since and seen
him and it's never the same. They've been through life that
we have, but there's always that acknowledgement and that
resonance that you started this world together that makes.
Sense and you talk about your lessons that you've learnt from
Spirit. What do you now take from that
and use with your clients and with other horses that you work
with? What sort of translatable
techniques do you use in your horsemanship Now that's stems
back to spirits, yeah? And so many, I think many
lessons we learn from horses go beyond words because they are a
being and you don't realise the impact of the lessons that
you've had from horses that you've touched and they've
touched you because they're in your body and they're in your
the way you interact, the softness of your hands, your
eyes, your perspective. I think he's changed that
forever. All of the horses in my path
have and just having compassion as well.
I think for the journey and knowing that it's OK to not know
what you're doing and it's OK to feel like you're in the darkness
and you want to do something different but you don't know
how. And I think that's what I want
to be for my clients is I I know the value of being heard.
And even if it's just going, hey, I know what you're doing
right now. It doesn't feel good and it
doesn't work for you. I hear you and that's OK That's
amazing. Let's help you shift you.
Because that's what spirit taught me, right?
Was like so much of me was getting in the way of of him
having breakthroughs because of things I didn't even things that
were just in my unconscious I had to work through.
So it definitely shifted that that moment of going Oh my God,
it all comes back to us. And I thought I knew it, but I
didn't know it. And so that's the approach now
but I'm like hey let's help you feel sane and shift what's in
you that your horse is seeing and and touching on that they're
they've got a mirror to. So that then you can be the safe
space that they need to shift. I think before I'd go into it
like Oh yeah, they need to I need to help them with their
language or I need to help them feel understood.
But it was, even though it was with compassion and love, it was
them. Rather than going, OK, let's
look at me first and why am I getting upset at certain points?
Why do I get upset when they leave me in the field and I feel
all deflated, or when they explode and I feel out of
control And there's a reason. So let's be curious and look at
that. And that might bring some
difficult moments, but ultimately when we shift then we
can see our horse so much better and we can be there for them and
we can help them in their moment of darkness because we've done
the work on ourselves. How difficult is it, cat to
approach the owner and say now let's turn the focus on you
because I imagine they think I've called you up to work on my
horse, not for a counselling or therapy session about me and my
issues. Hell's Yeah.
And it ironically, I didn't, I didn't realise, wanted to be a
real. I mean, firstly, that's why I've
got a question. Relationships, coaching my name
because those people who go, oh, that sounds great, Probably the
kind of people that are already ready for those conversations.
It's tough. And I think I did a Equi massage
qualification, just I just was curious.
I wanted to get into the industry.
I wanted to. I didn't know how to be what I
wanted to be. I know you need to start
somewhere. And everyone got so annoyed with
me because they were like, why aren't you just massaging my
horse in silence? Like why do you keep telling me
about me? And I'd be there like, Oh yeah,
no, I think this tension is you know, what about this and your
horse and have you ever thought about this?
And I think people would just be like, Oh my God, this is the
most high maintenance massage I've ever had to give my horse.
Because I'm just like, you know, you go away thinking, Oh no, my
horse got nicely, it's back and I'm questioning my whole
existence. And I think that made me realise
I needed to go into it as an actual thing.
And a lot of my clients are, they're just the most beautiful
people. And I think you get that
impression with me quite quick. I'm not about messing around
with the point I'm in and a lot of people that's a little bit
too much, you know, that kind of whoa, OK And there has been
moments, you know, where there has been.
It's been a really tough one because as a coach and as
someone who I'm like, I I want to help you the best I can and
have the conversations that I feel like you're ready for.
And it's OK if people are like, OK, no, I don't want to go
there. And I'm like, that's totally
cool and it's, it is hard. And I think that's why I'm very
transparent, even in my name of this isn't about the results,
it's about the relationship and are you OK with it taking longer
than you think? Are you OK with embracing that
journey, whatever it may be? Are you OK with looking at
yourself? Because I'm always like, there's
us, there's our horses and there's our relationship
together. We've got those different
components. And I think from the get go, I
was like, you are the most, you are the key component in every
relationship you have. Be that with your Guinea pig,
your dog, your parents, your friends, your partner, You are
the key component. Not that you're the most
important, no, no, no. But the only one that you have
influence over. So let's start there.
And yeah, I think when people realise that a lot of them are
like, OK, let's go there. And there's been definitely a
few. When new clients have been like,
yes. And they've got in the room with
a few of me and my clients, and they're like, whoa, I knew it
was going to be deep, but I know it was going to be that deep.
So yeah, so we have cat, we have our horses.
Things aren't going right. How do we know?
The issue is with the relationship between horse and
human and the energies that are being swapped versus an issue
with the horse itself. Maybe the horses back story,
what it's been through before it's come to us.
Yeah, and that's such an amazing place to go because that's the
key is relationship is the foundation.
It's the, I call it the river of relationship because it's like
it's your riverbanks where you and your horse can move together
in a flow, finding that safety together.
It is in its stealth what should be built first to that
achievement between people and their horses, feeling seen,
heard and understood, creating safety together.
That is the layer, the base layer, what you always need to
come back to. It's like with a friend you they
might be amazing. You might be amazing at certain
things. But ultimately if you don't
have, if you can't hear each other and listen to each other
and you don't feel that connection, the friendship
isn't, you don't feel safer than that friendship.
So I think that's what's important to acknowledge is
that's the relationship is always going to be something
that we need to nurture always, continuously.
It's not. It's a practice relationship is
a practice, which is what I learned.
It's not like you build it and then you're like great, that
house is built. Let's go.
It's oh, I've got to keep chipping away and keep growing
and keep changing and keep developing.
But then I also think there's that there's all of the other
pieces that we've got to acknowledge, whereby that's
physically with our horses. Perhaps they have something in
them that doesn't feel safe inside because it's it's telling
their body that there's a danger because they're her or they're
uncomfortable or they're in pain and that influences how they
feel or us. And also.
But the thing I think that you're really touching on here,
which I love to jump into, is our horses have their own
component, too. And just like us with all of our
kind of suitcases of stuff. Baggage.
Yeah, exactly. And some people have a little
handbag, Some people have, like, the whole boat.
And that's fine. Exactly.
You know, we've all got a few suitcases hidden there.
Oh yeah, and extra on EasyJet, people are like, oh, I didn't
even know it's bringing these ones.
I don't even know how they got there.
Our horses also have that too. And it's so important that we
not define them by that because it's like we don't want to be
defined by what we're carrying. Our programming, our
generational things, horses, generationally, how much, how,
how much hurt is there? Generationally, Why is there?
We're all bringing that with us, and especially those my new
pony, she's she's had a difficult past too and it's
going. The reason why I'm becoming a
safe place in my nervous system and my body is so I can help
hold you and just be there and hear you.
And a lot of a big part of what I do is also equine trauma
release, which is something I stumbled on completely by
accident within my massage sessions.
And it is when you feel seen and heard and when you feel safe,
your nervous system naturally enters a place of inner safety
so it can start to heal. And in our horses, we've got to
acknowledge that they are their own component and not it's their
job to fix themselves. No, we are the custodians of
them. We are their caretakers.
We are their partners in this life and going, OK, how can I
hold space for you to help you let go of what you're carrying?
Because it's heavy and it and it does, it means that you can't
connect with me in the way you want to because there's
something from the past that's going not safe.
And I've had the most profound sessions where I've done
nothing. All I've done is I've just
regulated myself and I've taken my ego, my expectations out of
it. And I've just said to them, hey,
I'm here like, I see you and I build up a little bit of
achievement and they go, OK, finally a human is actually
listening rather than just telling me what to do.
And the release that happens and the levels that they are holding
without us even knowing. And I've had horses lie down,
I've had horses roll, shake, have really profound responses
because their body is letting go of stuff that they're holding.
And when your body releases what it's been holding it or it
naturally deepens your capacity for connection because there's
less danger in the way. And that's I love that.
I love that question because it makes us realise that we need to
be that space for our horses more and more so we can see
what's going on and we can help them.
And if there's another issue that needs to be sold, like a
physical or introducing more healing and us or them, we can
see it and we can be aware of it and we can hold it.
And that's the key. It's really wonderful to listen
to and to hear how subtle it is that we don't have to do big
gestures. So for human to human
relationships, like you say, we become almost like a council,
don't we? To our partners, our friends,
our family, when we're all going through tough times and we park
our issues up at the door and we listen and we talk.
Hopefully if things if things are all peaceful and going well,
but with our horses we can just be peaceful and quiet and stand
with them and as you say, just put your hand on them and that
is enough to help our horses with their issues as well.
And a lot of horses I've worked with that have had trauma.
Well, everyone's had trauma or horses or humans, but
significant relational trauma, especially those who have in the
racing industry or those who have had all experiences of
humans not being fair, not being trustworthy, not being safe.
They can't connect, they can't reach out.
There's something in them that's like this very active connection
isn't safe to me. And it's those that you're
almost re helping them heal that by going by.
It's it's building achievement, which is the sense of feeling
seen, had and understood and responding to their emotional
states that they're showing us. So even if it's just they look
away and we just take a step away and we just go, yeah, I saw
you, I noticed that. And just in that very act, it
can be a miniscope, it can be a look away, it can be a turn your
shoulders if you don't want to move your feet, just
acknowledging. Or if they reach out normally
want to go straight up and reach out actually, if we just
mentally go, Yes, thank you. And just look away.
Often these horses, they go like, why is a human listening
to me like this? It's so subtle and so gentle
that it means everything to them.
And we miss. I miss it.
Everyone misses these things all the time because we're not
present enough. And who we are, we're not.
The world is not designed for us to be present, right?
It's like noise everywhere. Radio, phones, we're always
doing something so we aren't able to be present with the
little things. And we want to say if you want
to fix, we want to shape, we want to direct.
Just in that moment. If we can just see them and go,
OK, yeah, I see you often they'll step in and they'll come
back and that that part of them that's wanting connection gets
reignited. I'm wondering, Kat, whether it's
a therapy to you as well, because I think we're slightly
similar in that we're quite extroverted characters and we're
both gesturing wildly, loud voices, big personalities.
But is it therapeutic for you? Because I know for me, when I'm
working with my horses, it gives me a chance to be quiet and just
calm down. My sort of extroverted
tendencies. I don't have to be wildly
animated, I can just be very gentle and quiet, and I enjoy
that. I'm wondering if it's
therapeutic to you as well. Ah, yeah, even nail the head.
And I think yeah, just like you. It's like it's all too easy for
us to. It's who we are.
It's like that. Love it.
I love it so much. I'm always the first one of the
dance floor. Give me a glass of water.
I'm there like that I am. And I think I was having this
conversation with my boyfriend. I got I was like I don't think
you understand that I if I don't have horses in my life, like
it's it's not good. Like my space.
Yeah. I'm like it's not just I want to
be with them. It's like no, no, this is like
this is a genuine issue. If I can't spend that time with
them because they are the I think actually probably one of
the only things the see you the allow you to see the parts of
yourself, those quieter parts, those present parts, those parts
that don't need words to access that and help you put you back
in touch with it. And who you have to become when
you're with them. Especially in the release
sessions, like these are like 2 hour sessions because I need to
give them the space and the time to decompress.
Sometimes I don't say a word, sometimes I barely move and it's
the amount of presence. You almost feel high because you
are so present in that moment and it's like something in you
is just there and when you spend your life, I'm quite ADHD so
I've just got this that this here, this everywhere.
Like I'm very, yeah, it's just and it's that piece that all of
those parts coming together and aligning and you're just here in
that moment. And it is like it is therapy.
It is that kind of coming together of you and your soul
that you don't often give space to.
But when another being is there, so you told space for and with,
and who you have become is that. It's like you come home to
yourself for that moment and then when those two hours are
up, you're back in the car like La La La La.
But you've had that, you've had that and you remember it, and it
comes into who you are. Yes, certainly.
And Kat, for those listening who are inspired by your journey and
your thoughts and your reflections today, what one
piece of ice would you give them that they can take away right
now and put into action to give them a better connection and to
help them build a better connection with their horses?
Oh my goodness, all the places I could go with this, I think.
I'm like I have called me back. I think the power of
observation, because often we are so attached to the moment in
front of us. We are so invested in what we
almost we become. If someone looked at our face, I
know those who are listening can't see me.
We become stern, faced, fixated, even when we want to be being
loving and fun or we want to be light and present with our
horses. Often who we are being is not
that. And that's OK.
And I think going away today and it's something you can do
totally for free, that's not doesn't take time.
But in order to bring that space of safety to your relationship
with yourself and your horse, the first step is always
awareness. Because when you become aware of
something a you remove the judgement, you remove that
attachment and just almost catching it and going, Oh my
God, that's so interesting. And in that moment, for example,
you can notice it about yourself.
Like the other day I noticed with my pony, I can't remember.
I think she walked off and I was like, cool, that's fine.
Unconsciously and unconsciously I went fine.
Everyone always leaves me anyway.
And I was like, wow, isn't that interesting?
Because that would have happened anyway, but it just would have
been under the surface and I never ever would have been aware
of it. And thankfully I've done all
this work now that I don't dive into that because for the rest
of the day I might have been stirring on that somewhere in my
unconscious. And actually, it's all just
indications. So you can go, wow, OK, isn't
that interesting? And smile and breathe and and
then you can meet your horse. So then you can observe things
about your horse. So, for example, if you're in a
conversation together and they stop blinking or they stop
chewing, or you feel in your body an unease or a block or
just paying attention to, you're always connected with your horse
on a nervous system level, even if that's in a dysregulating
way. You're both losing it bit by bit
together, or you're becoming that safe space for your horse
to match you and come back to and regulate.
There's no no good or bad, it's just how it is.
And notice what's your horse's eyes doing?
Have they not taken a breath? Have they gone a little bit
quiet? Have they shut down a little bit
or are they needing to bite something?
Are they and just going OK and acknowledging and just taking
that step away and going OK, I see you and I'm here and just
seeing if there's any shift, if they start to blink or release
and giving yourself space and time to do that.
And if you're in a busy session, maybe it's 5 minutes at the
beginning that you just be with your horse.
You just notice these things and you start to regulate you first
and give yourself space first to come to the session from a
different space rather than in the energy that you've come into
from the day you've brought with you have a little gap where you
just go for this 5 minutes. I'm just going to observe
myself, my horse and just see what happens and I think you'll
be amazed at what comes through and what you learn about
yourself and your horse. So yeah, that's my little tip.
And focusing on you cat and your hopes and dreams, how do you
hope that your methods will evolve in the future?
And also what are your aims and your hopes and your dreams in
terms of equine therapy and and equine psychology in the future?
Yeah, I think, and I it's really amazing that this question came
up here. Every question.
I'm like, what's my question? Thank you.
I I realized the other day that I was like, I I love, I love
what I do. I sometimes just cry in a
session because I'm just like, oh, I just love what I just
love. Connecting humans and horses in
this deeper way. And it's such a gift.
But what I realised was how I I didn't realise how desperately
needed it is for all of us in every single walk of life.
It goes way further than just with our horses.
It is creating a safer world, actually, and how the lessons
that we can learn from our horses and ourselves for
ourselves is. How can we change our industry,
our world of horses, of whatever shape or form?
We do it in modality. There's so much judgement there
and there's so much toxicity and there's so much we think that
people change because we judge. Whereas actually what this work
teaches us is what changes the most is being seen and being
heard and being understood. Even if someone doesn't agree
with you, even if they don't live by that with you, it's
knowing that relationship always comes first.
If it's with another, even if it's with that person that you
like the least or whatever. It's changing the narrative of
the equestrian world, our world, how we go about our life.
Because the horses show us that actually underneath it all,
we're just mammals who deeply need to connect, who deeply need
to nourish their relationships. And we aren't cooperating like
that in the world. And I think the world that the
work that I'm doing and and I'm gifted.
I feel like I'm gifted this journey to be sharing.
It's about weaving in with what we already do.
All of those moments in the day where we can attune to someone
or we can attune to ourselves. And when we nurture ourselves
and we let go of some of the stuff that we're carrying, that
changes the world. Because if everyone did that,
we, our horses, would not know that, you know, they would have
completely different humans, completely different world to
wake up in. We would have a completely
different world to wake up in when we do the work on ourselves
and taking it, taking it seriously and going, OK, if I
want to live more connected, more free, more enriched, more
expressed, more safe existence, that's where I need to start.
Because if I want my horse to feel safe, this is the world
that I want to create for them. And I really believe that this
is the way to start and it's the foundation of everything.
Oh, Kat, thank you so much for such a wonderful conversation
and such an inspiring discussion about your journey and what
you're doing in in present times as well to change the lives of
your horses that you work with and yourself and also hopefully
have that trickle effect as well.
So thank you so much for coming on.
The podcast, thank you so much. I absolutely loved it.
I've absolutely loved it. Thank you.
For those listening who want to find you and follow you and get
in touch, how can they do that cat?
So you can find me on my social medias so at balance and align
equine for those of you on Instagram or Facebook and you
know you can on my website as well.
So it's www.bansonline.com or for those of you who want to
reach out, and please do reach out because I love hearing from
everyone and hearing you know your story with your horse and
and you know where you're at is my e-mail, which is
catherine@balancealign.com. Don't.
Believe it there.