1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:04,640 Have you ever thought about what happens when the time comes to 2 00:00:04,640 --> 00:00:09,520 say goodbye to your horse? It's a difficult subject, isn't 3 00:00:09,520 --> 00:00:13,440 it, that no horse owner wants to think through, But how are you 4 00:00:13,440 --> 00:00:17,760 prepared? For 30 years, Blue Cross have 5 00:00:17,760 --> 00:00:22,520 put in place a support team that can help you cope and they 6 00:00:22,520 --> 00:00:25,800 recognize that there are many, many types of loss within the 7 00:00:25,800 --> 00:00:30,280 equestrian world through death, separation. 8 00:00:30,520 --> 00:00:33,640 Or if your vet is given a difficult diagnosis and you're 9 00:00:33,640 --> 00:00:39,920 facing the decision to euthanize your horse, It may be that you 10 00:00:39,920 --> 00:00:44,200 or a member of your family has had to rehome a much loved pony 11 00:00:44,480 --> 00:00:47,280 or your animal may have been lost or stolen. 12 00:00:48,640 --> 00:00:52,560 So how can we cope with the loss of our beloved horse, and what 13 00:00:52,560 --> 00:00:57,240 should we be thinking about or preparing for in advance? 14 00:00:58,240 --> 00:01:02,680 Sophie Cookson King, a pet loss support training officer at Blue 15 00:01:02,680 --> 00:01:07,120 Cross, joins us with expert help and advice. 16 00:01:11,800 --> 00:01:14,280 Sophie, welcome to Curious Equestrian. 17 00:01:14,960 --> 00:01:20,000 Thanks so much, Anna Louise. Now, Sophie, when we come to buy 18 00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:23,880 our horses or rescue our horses, something we never think about 19 00:01:23,880 --> 00:01:29,320 as owners and guardians of horses is losing them. 20 00:01:29,760 --> 00:01:31,800 We think about our lives together. 21 00:01:32,240 --> 00:01:37,560 So how do we prepare as owners for that loss, if it's at all 22 00:01:37,560 --> 00:01:42,400 possible to? Yeah, it's, it's never a nice 23 00:01:42,400 --> 00:01:44,760 thing to think about, is it? It's something that we never 24 00:01:44,760 --> 00:01:49,920 want to consider when we're taking on a new equine. 25 00:01:50,080 --> 00:01:52,920 Quite understandably, we're getting them because we want to 26 00:01:52,920 --> 00:01:56,960 enjoy them, not because we want to think about the end of their 27 00:01:56,960 --> 00:01:59,960 lives or, or the end of time that we spend with them. 28 00:02:00,520 --> 00:02:05,560 But arguably, I think it's one of the most important steps and 29 00:02:05,560 --> 00:02:10,000 and journeys that we would take together with a horse or a pony. 30 00:02:10,840 --> 00:02:16,320 So we would really like to think about people considering it as 31 00:02:16,320 --> 00:02:19,840 far in advance. This can sound really scary and 32 00:02:19,840 --> 00:02:23,120 it's not something that we want to think about, but adequately 33 00:02:23,120 --> 00:02:27,280 planning and thinking in advance, you need to consider 34 00:02:27,280 --> 00:02:31,960 options like the actual methods for euthanasia if that's going 35 00:02:31,960 --> 00:02:37,920 to be considered, options for disposal of the body after 36 00:02:37,920 --> 00:02:41,120 death. If it's rehoming, you need to 37 00:02:41,120 --> 00:02:44,360 think about rehoming options of where you may like your horse or 38 00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:49,160 pony to go if you were no longer able to care for them and being 39 00:02:49,160 --> 00:02:53,680 able to make these decisions prior to you feeling in that 40 00:02:53,680 --> 00:02:57,960 really stressed, anxious space of when the time actually comes. 41 00:02:58,400 --> 00:03:01,000 If you're able to have some forethought to that and let some 42 00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:05,160 important people know, whether that be your yard manager, 43 00:03:05,760 --> 00:03:09,800 friends or family so that they can also carry out your wishes 44 00:03:09,800 --> 00:03:14,160 if you're not available as well. I think that it is not nice to 45 00:03:14,160 --> 00:03:17,480 think about, but a really responsible thing to do for our 46 00:03:17,480 --> 00:03:22,600 our loved horses. And Sophie, can you talk us 47 00:03:22,600 --> 00:03:28,240 through what that process is like when you mention euthanasia 48 00:03:28,680 --> 00:03:32,240 and, and saying goodbye to our horses and that loss at the end? 49 00:03:32,760 --> 00:03:37,240 I've never seen a horse die. So I don't know even what that 50 00:03:37,240 --> 00:03:39,880 looks like from an owner's perspective. 51 00:03:40,520 --> 00:03:44,320 Is it quite hard to obviously it's, it's hard to lose any pet. 52 00:03:44,320 --> 00:03:46,200 And I've, I've lost dogs over the years, which is 53 00:03:46,200 --> 00:03:49,400 heartbreaking to put them to sleep. 54 00:03:49,960 --> 00:03:53,280 But with a horse, we're talking of a large animal, you know, 55 00:03:53,280 --> 00:03:57,800 half a ton beast. What happens in that process? 56 00:03:57,800 --> 00:04:00,440 And I can imagine it's quite distressing to watch an animal 57 00:04:00,440 --> 00:04:05,000 of that size pass away. Yeah. 58 00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:09,680 So this is a a question that we get a lot at pet loss support. 59 00:04:10,200 --> 00:04:16,040 And so it is a completely normal worry to have and especially if 60 00:04:16,040 --> 00:04:20,399 it's not something that you have experienced before, that can 61 00:04:20,399 --> 00:04:25,480 feel really, really daunting. So there are two methods for 62 00:04:25,480 --> 00:04:30,560 euthanasia within the UK. Both of them are humane. 63 00:04:30,880 --> 00:04:33,160 And I think it's really important to stress that 64 00:04:33,160 --> 00:04:36,720 euthanasia actually comes from the term good death. 65 00:04:37,240 --> 00:04:41,280 So both of these, no matter what maybe horror stories might come 66 00:04:41,280 --> 00:04:45,360 about from people ultimately when you tell or share with 67 00:04:45,360 --> 00:04:47,800 friends, family, other people on the yard. 68 00:04:48,640 --> 00:04:51,200 I know I do find it a strange thing when people like to share 69 00:04:51,200 --> 00:04:54,680 horror stories all of a sudden when you've made the decision as 70 00:04:54,680 --> 00:04:57,560 to where you'd like to, how you'd like it to happen. 71 00:04:58,280 --> 00:05:02,520 So the the two options would be firstly for the lethal injection 72 00:05:03,360 --> 00:05:06,160 that can only be carried out by a vet. 73 00:05:06,560 --> 00:05:09,160 So that would be something that you would need to talk in 74 00:05:09,160 --> 00:05:12,640 conjunction with your vet about. And of course they will advise 75 00:05:12,640 --> 00:05:17,400 you as to when that might be appropriate within the the 76 00:05:17,400 --> 00:05:22,200 horse's life or stage of their diagnosis, if it's to do with an 77 00:05:22,200 --> 00:05:26,960 illness or an injury. And with that, you need to have 78 00:05:26,960 --> 00:05:30,040 some considerations as to physically where it's going to 79 00:05:30,040 --> 00:05:32,480 be done. So the vet will will have to 80 00:05:32,480 --> 00:05:37,080 have good access, they'll have to be a safe level area for the 81 00:05:37,080 --> 00:05:44,360 horse to drop on their side. But this is a a procedure that 82 00:05:44,360 --> 00:05:47,840 the owners can probably be more involved with if they wish. 83 00:05:48,160 --> 00:05:51,400 So if you would like to be present, you can be. 84 00:05:51,520 --> 00:05:54,640 But again, there's absolutely no right or wrong to that as to 85 00:05:54,640 --> 00:05:56,480 whether you would like to be there. 86 00:05:57,280 --> 00:06:01,440 So you could be present for it. And what you will see is the 87 00:06:01,440 --> 00:06:04,640 horse will be injected into their neck. 88 00:06:04,960 --> 00:06:07,240 A catheter will usually be introduced. 89 00:06:07,640 --> 00:06:10,880 So it's a consideration that if your horse is needle shy that 90 00:06:10,880 --> 00:06:15,840 this might not be the most the best option for them. 91 00:06:17,000 --> 00:06:21,760 And the injection will be inserted and that will be slowly 92 00:06:21,760 --> 00:06:24,320 at 1st and then introduced as a bolus. 93 00:06:24,320 --> 00:06:27,080 So quite fast injection in the second-half. 94 00:06:27,640 --> 00:06:32,120 And what will happen is that your horse will firstly go under 95 00:06:32,120 --> 00:06:37,280 sedation, so they will be unconscious and then their heart 96 00:06:37,280 --> 00:06:41,200 will will stop. So you'll see your horse fall 97 00:06:41,200 --> 00:06:45,120 over to the side and the vet will always be guiding the 98 00:06:45,120 --> 00:06:47,000 horse. So you will be asked to step 99 00:06:47,000 --> 00:06:49,120 away from holding your horse at that point. 100 00:06:50,160 --> 00:06:54,280 But they will fall. And then with either method, 101 00:06:54,280 --> 00:06:58,080 including the other method I'm going to talk about, horses can 102 00:06:58,520 --> 00:07:02,680 have take some agonal breaths. So that can sound like gasps, 103 00:07:02,680 --> 00:07:06,000 which can be a bit worrying if you're not aware that that could 104 00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:08,600 happen. There could be some movement in 105 00:07:08,600 --> 00:07:13,280 their legs or they could urinate or defecate as well. 106 00:07:14,440 --> 00:07:19,040 Now the other option is to have your animal shot. 107 00:07:19,680 --> 00:07:24,200 So this can I think evoke quite strong feelings from people, 108 00:07:24,640 --> 00:07:28,120 again, completely understandably, but that can be 109 00:07:28,120 --> 00:07:33,760 carried out by a vet that has a firearm licence or by what we 110 00:07:33,760 --> 00:07:37,160 call in the UK an Ackerman. So this will be a hopefully a 111 00:07:37,160 --> 00:07:42,440 licensed collector that will be licensed with Defra and they are 112 00:07:42,440 --> 00:07:47,960 usually very skilled people who will make sure that your heart 113 00:07:47,960 --> 00:07:50,280 horse is nice and calm beforehand. 114 00:07:51,280 --> 00:07:54,240 You may choose to have your horse sedated before this 115 00:07:54,240 --> 00:07:58,920 happens, but it isn't always necessary and the muzzle of the 116 00:07:58,920 --> 00:08:03,480 gun will be placed up to your horse's forehead and discharged, 117 00:08:03,800 --> 00:08:05,600 so this is something to be aware of. 118 00:08:05,600 --> 00:08:08,760 If your horse is head shy, this probably isn't going to be the 119 00:08:08,760 --> 00:08:12,080 best option for them, but what is lovely is that they can 120 00:08:12,080 --> 00:08:15,000 probably have the head in a bucket of apples or carrots or 121 00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:17,160 their favorite mix right beforehand. 122 00:08:18,280 --> 00:08:22,760 It is extremely quick and what you will find is that they fall 123 00:08:22,760 --> 00:08:25,520 faster than via lethal injection. 124 00:08:26,800 --> 00:08:32,600 There may be some blood from the the bullet site, but again, they 125 00:08:32,600 --> 00:08:37,039 might experience the same bodily functions if they were to be 126 00:08:37,480 --> 00:08:40,400 euthanized by lethal injection. So you might have some movement 127 00:08:40,400 --> 00:08:48,240 of their legs and urination. So one, when both methods have 128 00:08:49,280 --> 00:08:52,600 finished, it will then be that the vet or the Nacaman will 129 00:08:52,600 --> 00:08:56,640 check that the horse has died. So the vet will listen to the 130 00:08:56,640 --> 00:09:00,920 heartbeat, but they will also check for reflexes. 131 00:09:01,240 --> 00:09:04,200 And the last reflex to go is the eye reflex. 132 00:09:04,200 --> 00:09:07,840 So you will touch the eye and if the horse does not blink, then 133 00:09:07,840 --> 00:09:09,920 it means that that they've deceased. 134 00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:12,640 So. Gosh, it's it's a. 135 00:09:12,760 --> 00:09:15,160 Lot of. Difficult, Yeah, such a 136 00:09:15,160 --> 00:09:17,920 difficult subject, Sophie, isn't it, to discuss when we're 137 00:09:17,920 --> 00:09:21,560 talking about our, you know, our much loved best friends, family 138 00:09:21,560 --> 00:09:24,760 members, companions, particularly with horses that 139 00:09:24,760 --> 00:09:26,960 may have been with us for 20-30 years. 140 00:09:27,880 --> 00:09:33,120 And it is just shocking to me that it is such a dramatic end, 141 00:09:33,120 --> 00:09:35,280 isn't it? You know, I'm just comparing it 142 00:09:35,280 --> 00:09:40,240 with my beloved 3 dogs that I've lost over my lifetime and, and 143 00:09:40,240 --> 00:09:43,040 the end process with them. Absolutely heart wrenching. 144 00:09:43,040 --> 00:09:45,400 All of us that have lost a pet know how heartbreaking our 145 00:09:45,400 --> 00:09:49,280 animals are and how difficult it and distressing it is saying 146 00:09:49,280 --> 00:09:51,760 goodbye. But with a dog, they can sit in 147 00:09:51,760 --> 00:09:54,440 your lap or you can lay with them or you can cuddle them. 148 00:09:54,440 --> 00:09:58,080 But with our horses, because of the sheer size, I've actually 149 00:09:58,080 --> 00:10:01,360 found it so difficult to think about the options, knowing that 150 00:10:01,360 --> 00:10:04,000 you have to step away. You have to, you know, you 151 00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:06,960 actually have to let the professionals take over in a 152 00:10:06,960 --> 00:10:10,080 moment. Want to be closest to them? 153 00:10:12,840 --> 00:10:17,560 Yeah, that again is a completely natural response. 154 00:10:17,560 --> 00:10:21,280 They are our beloved friends and family members. 155 00:10:21,800 --> 00:10:24,440 I think it would be important to make the distinction that 156 00:10:24,440 --> 00:10:29,240 although it might feel dramatic or not a very nice thing for us 157 00:10:29,240 --> 00:10:34,320 to witness, the horse doesn't know what's coming on on either 158 00:10:34,560 --> 00:10:37,640 methods. So for your horse, it's 159 00:10:37,640 --> 00:10:40,520 completely humane. But what it doesn't do is is 160 00:10:40,520 --> 00:10:47,360 that doesn't lessen the feelings that can be evoked by that 161 00:10:47,360 --> 00:10:51,120 moment for you as an owner or a carer or guardian. 162 00:10:51,520 --> 00:10:54,800 So it's really important to do what feels right for you. 163 00:10:55,280 --> 00:10:58,960 Some people do like to be present and some people don't. 164 00:10:59,040 --> 00:11:03,760 And either is absolutely OK. There really isn't right or 165 00:11:03,760 --> 00:11:06,680 wrong, no matter how much judgement you might hear. 166 00:11:07,800 --> 00:11:10,640 And Sophie, I'm gonna ask the difficult question that we're 167 00:11:10,640 --> 00:11:14,640 all thinking right now with the gunshots is the last thing that 168 00:11:14,640 --> 00:11:17,800 they hear the sound of the gun going off? 169 00:11:20,040 --> 00:11:24,880 Death is instantaneous. So there has as far as I'm 170 00:11:24,880 --> 00:11:29,560 aware, no research has gone into what horses hear when they are 171 00:11:29,560 --> 00:11:31,440 shot. I know that there has been 172 00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:35,560 research into what they hear when they are sedated and then 173 00:11:35,560 --> 00:11:37,400 euthanized by a lethal injection. 174 00:11:37,920 --> 00:11:42,160 And as soon as they are under sedation, they're not able to 175 00:11:42,280 --> 00:11:45,200 you know that that stops what their their consciousness. 176 00:11:45,520 --> 00:11:51,720 So the the method by free bullet is honestly so so quick that 177 00:11:51,720 --> 00:11:54,440 horse won't be aware as to what's happening. 178 00:11:54,720 --> 00:11:57,200 It will be that they have their head in a bucket of feed. 179 00:11:58,760 --> 00:12:03,000 And is it also worth considering with the gunshot option? 180 00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:05,720 And the reason I ask is for those listening who might 181 00:12:05,720 --> 00:12:08,880 actually be having to make that call right now as to whether 182 00:12:08,880 --> 00:12:12,160 they go for euthanasia or whether, as you mentioned, you 183 00:12:12,160 --> 00:12:16,640 call out the knacker man and, and weighing up options when you 184 00:12:16,640 --> 00:12:19,800 hold that gun to the horse's head, they're obviously going to 185 00:12:19,800 --> 00:12:22,440 be aware of that. And for those of a nervous 186 00:12:22,440 --> 00:12:25,840 disposition, I would just warn that I'm about to mention a 187 00:12:25,840 --> 00:12:30,800 story involving a sheep. So to skip on about a minute or 188 00:12:30,800 --> 00:12:32,960 so. But Sophie, the reason I ask is 189 00:12:32,960 --> 00:12:36,040 because I heard a story about a sheep that the NACA man was 190 00:12:36,040 --> 00:12:38,720 called to the sheep. It was a ram. 191 00:12:38,800 --> 00:12:41,200 The NACA man held the gun to the sheep's head. 192 00:12:41,520 --> 00:12:45,840 The sheep was distressed by the gun and then managed to sort of 193 00:12:45,840 --> 00:12:48,840 push the knack man out the way and, and it was all quite 194 00:12:48,840 --> 00:12:51,480 distressing for all involved. And a shot was fired into the 195 00:12:51,480 --> 00:12:53,640 air. And it's sort of, I heard this 196 00:12:53,640 --> 00:12:56,600 story through the Grapevine. And like you mentioned, isn't it 197 00:12:56,600 --> 00:12:59,640 interesting that when you're talking about euthanasia, 198 00:12:59,640 --> 00:13:02,400 suddenly everyone has a story to share and you kind of hear these 199 00:13:02,800 --> 00:13:06,200 pass from pillar to post round yards and, and sort of other 200 00:13:06,200 --> 00:13:10,480 experiences. Will the horse be distressed by 201 00:13:10,480 --> 00:13:14,520 that gun being planted to its forehead? 202 00:13:16,400 --> 00:13:22,200 So for all of the horses that I have witnessed being shot, which 203 00:13:22,320 --> 00:13:25,240 unfortunately for me is a fair few that I've been present at 204 00:13:25,240 --> 00:13:32,520 euthanasia for the horses are it's all of the, the NACA men or 205 00:13:32,520 --> 00:13:37,400 collectors will be very, very experienced in what they do. 206 00:13:37,720 --> 00:13:41,640 So great care is taken to make sure that that horse is as 207 00:13:41,640 --> 00:13:44,200 comfortable and as relaxed as possible. 208 00:13:45,280 --> 00:13:49,240 If the horse has sedation, then obviously the the horse will be 209 00:13:49,240 --> 00:13:51,320 relaxed. Depending on whether they've had 210 00:13:51,320 --> 00:13:56,480 an an oral or an intravenous or an intramuscular sedation, the 211 00:13:56,480 --> 00:13:59,760 edge will be taken off there. But I've seen plenty of horses 212 00:13:59,760 --> 00:14:04,360 where they have not been sedated first and a great care is taken 213 00:14:04,360 --> 00:14:08,240 to make sure that they can smell the gun, that they see it. 214 00:14:08,240 --> 00:14:10,400 It's not that it's being hidden from them. 215 00:14:10,880 --> 00:14:15,600 They will rub the horse's head with their hand with the gun in 216 00:14:15,600 --> 00:14:18,920 it. So it's not like it's a quick 217 00:14:18,920 --> 00:14:20,840 process. It's a considered and 218 00:14:20,840 --> 00:14:23,440 professional service that you would be receiving. 219 00:14:24,760 --> 00:14:27,760 And do we have to also think of the other horses on the yard in 220 00:14:27,760 --> 00:14:29,960 terms of the gunshot being fired? 221 00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:32,880 Do you recommend it if you're part of a large livery riding 222 00:14:32,880 --> 00:14:36,840 school or Seoul UC yard with other horses in the field? 223 00:14:38,600 --> 00:14:41,360 I think that that would be personal preference and is 224 00:14:41,360 --> 00:14:44,880 definitely a discussion point that needs to be had. 225 00:14:46,560 --> 00:14:50,360 Depends on what horses are desensitised to as well. 226 00:14:51,640 --> 00:14:55,880 Some horses won't notice a a a gunshot and other horses could 227 00:14:55,880 --> 00:15:02,400 be distressed by loud bangs. So I think it would be kind to 228 00:15:02,400 --> 00:15:06,480 discuss what the plans might be with other people on the 229 00:15:06,480 --> 00:15:11,680 premises, making sure that their horses are of course cared for 230 00:15:11,680 --> 00:15:13,440 as well. If there is a loud bang, that's 231 00:15:13,440 --> 00:15:17,840 going to happen, but with all euthanasia's, who is present 232 00:15:17,840 --> 00:15:21,120 needs to be considered. So can it be a time of day when 233 00:15:21,120 --> 00:15:24,240 there's less people on the yard, when there's less horses, 234 00:15:24,240 --> 00:15:27,600 there's less movement around and there is, of course, the 235 00:15:28,280 --> 00:15:30,840 implication of safety with a firearm. 236 00:15:31,440 --> 00:15:36,280 So there again, the the Knack man will be speaking to you 237 00:15:36,280 --> 00:15:38,800 about where is appropriate for this to happen. 238 00:15:38,800 --> 00:15:42,320 The actual location. They'll take great care to make 239 00:15:42,320 --> 00:15:46,120 sure that, again, there are no animals, no people surrounding 240 00:15:46,120 --> 00:15:49,320 in, you know, behind the direction of where that gun is 241 00:15:49,320 --> 00:15:52,920 going to be shot. Do you know, Sophie, it's such a 242 00:15:52,920 --> 00:15:56,880 difficult job what you do and one that actually we don't 243 00:15:56,880 --> 00:15:59,640 consider often enough. I think, you know, we always 244 00:15:59,640 --> 00:16:02,600 talk about trying to make the lives of our vets and our 245 00:16:02,600 --> 00:16:05,920 farriers easier and thinking about people in equine 246 00:16:05,920 --> 00:16:08,040 professional jobs and the risks of their jobs. 247 00:16:08,320 --> 00:16:11,960 But actually, the job you do must take a real toll on your 248 00:16:11,960 --> 00:16:16,480 mental health, having to, you know, consider the horses at 249 00:16:16,480 --> 00:16:19,680 their the end of their life and also help those who have lost 250 00:16:19,680 --> 00:16:25,800 their beloved horses as well. I think anyone that's in a 251 00:16:25,800 --> 00:16:29,360 caring industry will know that yes, at times it can be 252 00:16:29,360 --> 00:16:34,080 incredibly tough, but there's no doubt about it that the service 253 00:16:34,080 --> 00:16:38,520 that Blue Cross provides through the pet loss support service is 254 00:16:38,520 --> 00:16:43,680 so needed. There was a study, a survey that 255 00:16:43,680 --> 00:16:49,400 that we took and it found that about 46% of pet owners said 256 00:16:49,400 --> 00:16:52,440 that they'd had to suffer in silence after losing a pet. 257 00:16:53,920 --> 00:16:57,120 You know, that's a huge amount of people who will be struggling 258 00:16:57,120 --> 00:17:01,800 with pet loss alone. And what an awful thing that we 259 00:17:01,840 --> 00:17:07,480 are going through a process that we know pet loss elicits the 260 00:17:07,480 --> 00:17:10,400 same grief response as a human loss. 261 00:17:10,680 --> 00:17:15,040 And so it's awful that, you know, almost 50% of pet owners 262 00:17:15,079 --> 00:17:17,680 are feeling that they have to do that alone. 263 00:17:18,160 --> 00:17:21,520 So it is so important what we do. 264 00:17:21,560 --> 00:17:25,680 And last year pet loss support helped more than 30,000 pet 265 00:17:25,680 --> 00:17:29,960 owners and that will be people that own all different species 266 00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:32,240 of pets. Wow. 267 00:17:32,640 --> 00:17:36,520 Now tell us, Sophie, what inspired the launch of the free 268 00:17:36,520 --> 00:17:39,320 helpline as well? I like to, you know, actually 269 00:17:39,320 --> 00:17:41,800 stress that this is a free service that you're offering, 270 00:17:41,800 --> 00:17:44,320 which is actually quite difficult to come by when you 271 00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:47,760 put anything, you know, the word equestrian in front of anything. 272 00:17:49,920 --> 00:17:52,720 Yes, it's, it's an expensive hobby to have, isn't it? 273 00:17:54,080 --> 00:18:00,480 So really what inspired pet loss support was lots to do with the 274 00:18:00,480 --> 00:18:03,680 research that was coming out in terms of US starting to 275 00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:08,560 understand that pets aren't just pets, they're family members. 276 00:18:08,560 --> 00:18:13,080 We can see them like children. If we think about horses alone, 277 00:18:13,360 --> 00:18:17,360 they can be companions. We use them as competition 278 00:18:17,360 --> 00:18:21,920 animals there where we get our exercise and how we chat to our 279 00:18:21,920 --> 00:18:25,200 friends, so they have multiple roles. 280 00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:30,480 So when we feel their loss, we feel it really, really strongly. 281 00:18:31,640 --> 00:18:36,040 And we just really wanted to make sure that no one had to 282 00:18:36,040 --> 00:18:40,440 navigate that often overwhelming journey of pet loss alone. 283 00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:44,080 So yeah, as you said, it's a, it's a free and a confidential 284 00:18:44,080 --> 00:18:47,520 helpline. It's run by trained volunteers 285 00:18:47,680 --> 00:18:52,840 every day of the year, 8:30 in the morning until 8:30 at night. 286 00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:56,640 So we have to make sure that no one can endure the the pain of 287 00:18:56,640 --> 00:19:01,320 losing a pet alone. And as you've so kindly run us 288 00:19:01,320 --> 00:19:03,880 through Sophie and it is difficult to hear, I have to 289 00:19:03,880 --> 00:19:07,520 say, even though I was ready for this conversation today, you 290 00:19:07,520 --> 00:19:10,480 don't quite realise what you're going to be imagining when we're 291 00:19:10,480 --> 00:19:13,040 having these conversations about the loss of a horse and 292 00:19:13,040 --> 00:19:16,840 imagining, you know, having to step back from your essentially 293 00:19:16,840 --> 00:19:19,600 your best friend, your family member in those final moments, 294 00:19:19,960 --> 00:19:22,640 you know, having to allow clearance for the horse to fall. 295 00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:25,520 You know, this is not something that we deal with in terms of 296 00:19:25,760 --> 00:19:29,480 our pet dogs and our pet cats. We don't have to see them fall 297 00:19:29,720 --> 00:19:33,640 to the floor. And actually there's many levels 298 00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:36,000 of losing the horse now that I can understand is very 299 00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:39,520 distressing for that owner. Not just the loss and the 300 00:19:39,520 --> 00:19:43,720 heartbreak of not being able to be with our, our beloved equine 301 00:19:43,760 --> 00:19:45,960 every day because we've lost them and, and we're no longer 302 00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:49,280 with them, but actually the trauma in that moment of losing 303 00:19:49,280 --> 00:19:51,320 the animal and watching it fall to the floor. 304 00:19:51,640 --> 00:19:54,280 Is this something, Sophie, that you're used to hearing on the 305 00:19:54,280 --> 00:19:55,840 helpline? Is this something that people 306 00:19:55,840 --> 00:19:58,640 find distressing? Is there like a a trauma, 307 00:19:58,640 --> 00:20:01,440 trauma, a trauma that's sort of left behind? 308 00:20:03,240 --> 00:20:08,480 Yes, absolutely. And I think a really important 309 00:20:08,480 --> 00:20:14,040 distinction to make is that for horse owners particularly equine 310 00:20:14,040 --> 00:20:21,200 loss is not always recognised as being something that is accepted 311 00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:23,400 by society as being a traumatic thing. 312 00:20:23,400 --> 00:20:27,520 And I think even within the pet owning community, understandably 313 00:20:27,520 --> 00:20:31,720 dogs and cats, a lot of people own them and so they understand 314 00:20:31,720 --> 00:20:34,960 or can understand the the the hole that's felt when we don't 315 00:20:34,960 --> 00:20:39,760 have them anymore. But horses, of course, they're 316 00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:44,640 expensive both the financially time, you know, effort, energy. 317 00:20:45,360 --> 00:20:48,000 So not as many people own horses. 318 00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:52,680 So even within that pet owning sphere, people don't always 319 00:20:52,680 --> 00:20:59,080 understand how painful it can be to lose a horse. 320 00:20:59,360 --> 00:21:04,840 And we hear many horse owners contacting the service saying 321 00:21:04,840 --> 00:21:09,600 that they feel guilty is now the right time, wishing that they 322 00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:13,440 could have had longer, wishing maybe they made the choice too 323 00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:15,760 late and they're feeling concerned about that. 324 00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:22,320 So I suppose I would like to urge that any feeling that you 325 00:21:22,320 --> 00:21:26,680 do feel, whether it's before, during or after the loss of your 326 00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:30,960 horse, we will have heard and supported someone on the line 327 00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:35,520 like you, and you're not alone in that process. 328 00:21:36,600 --> 00:21:39,880 Yeah, and, and you're so right. There's so many different 329 00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:44,440 aspects to being a horse owner like you mentioned, actually in 330 00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:47,520 the workplace, if you're dealing with the loss of your dog or 331 00:21:47,520 --> 00:21:49,920 your cat. I remember when I lost my 332 00:21:49,920 --> 00:21:53,400 beloved Ella, our little rescue dog, I had to call in sit the 333 00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:56,520 next day to work and I said to everyone, you know, I'm so sorry 334 00:21:56,520 --> 00:21:58,120 I can't come in because I'm absolutely distraught. 335 00:21:58,120 --> 00:22:01,640 We've just unexpectedly said goodbye to our dog and I was 336 00:22:01,640 --> 00:22:04,560 flooded with emails because obviously my colleagues had all 337 00:22:04,680 --> 00:22:06,520 lost a dog at some point as well. 338 00:22:06,920 --> 00:22:09,400 And, and everyone sympathised and empathised. 339 00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:12,480 And I've known other colleagues that couldn't go to work because 340 00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:15,280 of the loss of their dog. But I think I've only ever 341 00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:18,040 worked in a workplace where there's been one other person 342 00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:20,720 that's had horses, as you mentioned, they're not as 343 00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:24,200 common, commonly kept as pets and they're expensive and, and 344 00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:26,720 they're difficult and they're very much that unique lifestyle 345 00:22:26,720 --> 00:22:30,280 that we all enter into as as passionate equestrians. 346 00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:34,240 So immediately there's less of a community ready to help, help 347 00:22:34,240 --> 00:22:37,120 you through and send you a message or a text or an e-mail 348 00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:39,560 to, to empathise. And that's what really can help 349 00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:42,160 you through, isn't it at work, if if your colleagues and your 350 00:22:42,160 --> 00:22:45,360 friends understand what you're going through, but immediately 351 00:22:45,360 --> 00:22:47,920 you're slightly different to everyone else if you're talking 352 00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:51,560 about a horse. Yes. 353 00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:56,800 And what you're explaining there, Anna Louise, is something 354 00:22:56,800 --> 00:23:00,400 called disenfranchised loss. And that is when a loss is not 355 00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:06,520 recognised by society and that can feel so alienating. 356 00:23:06,520 --> 00:23:09,840 And again, it's something that we see time and time again with 357 00:23:09,840 --> 00:23:13,840 horse owners contacting the service that they are feeling 358 00:23:13,840 --> 00:23:17,440 completely at a loss and like a lot of, not a lot of people 359 00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:23,200 understand them. Would you also say, Sophie, that 360 00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:29,040 because horses are now seen as pets and family members and I'm, 361 00:23:29,760 --> 00:23:33,320 and we all know that horses over the years have had jobs, have 362 00:23:33,320 --> 00:23:36,280 been purely for competition or if we go back many, many moons 363 00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:39,480 ago, they were our transport, they were our, you know, our 364 00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:41,880 colleagues, they were working for the family. 365 00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:46,240 Now we do keep them as leisure horses and as pets and as family 366 00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:48,800 members. So are your services needed on 367 00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:51,400 the helpline more than ever now? Are you seeing numbers 368 00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:55,920 increasing because actually horses are much loved members of 369 00:23:55,920 --> 00:23:59,280 the family rather than being, you know, having a job or having 370 00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:06,480 a service within the family? Definitely yes, that would be 371 00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:10,440 the short answer. But yes, we we see time and time 372 00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:16,320 again that horse owners are having a much deeper or wider 373 00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:19,640 connection with their horse and that their horse usually doesn't 374 00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:24,560 mean just one thing to them. It will be a multitude of things 375 00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:29,880 and there will be people that cite that horses feel like 376 00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:33,440 they're children, perhaps they've chosen not to have 377 00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:38,440 children or can't have children. And that horse and everything 378 00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:43,040 that they encapsulate really fill that need to care for 379 00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:48,080 another. So they have a a huge variety of 380 00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:53,440 roles within our lives. So it is absolutely not a 381 00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:56,600 surprise that their loss is felt more heavily. 382 00:24:56,920 --> 00:25:01,120 And there have been so many studies that show that the more 383 00:25:01,120 --> 00:25:04,720 connected we feel to an animal and the more roles that they 384 00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:10,760 have in our lives, the more we feel their the more we grieve 385 00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:12,800 and feel their loss when they're not here anymore. 386 00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:16,600 And of course, there are different kinds of loss as well 387 00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:20,000 with our horses. So there are planned losses as 388 00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:23,040 as you explained to us, Sophie, Sophie, where we have to make a 389 00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:26,680 decision as an owner, whether we go via the gun or whether we go 390 00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:29,880 for euthanasia with the vet or whether we do actually sedate 391 00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:33,280 and then use the gun. So there's a really difficult 392 00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:36,400 decision that has to be made there in in the pre planning. 393 00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:40,320 But then of course, there's the awful situation where our horse 394 00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:44,000 dies of something in the field, or we arrive and our horse is 395 00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:46,680 dead, or we are we arrive and it's too late. 396 00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:51,000 So I'm imagining you also are dealing with very different 397 00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:55,560 reactions to grief and and very different scenarios of of loss 398 00:25:55,560 --> 00:26:01,640 of a horse. Yes, and also loss doesn't have 399 00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:05,320 to just be deaf. You might need to sell or rehome 400 00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:08,480 your horse. Your child might have outgrown 401 00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:13,040 their pony and they're needing to upscale to, you know, a a 402 00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:16,800 larger pony. Not all of us can afford to keep 403 00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:19,800 multiple horses. Some of us can't afford to keep 404 00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:23,840 1. So there are lots of reasons. 405 00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:27,200 Really hope that it wouldn't ever happen to anyone. 406 00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:29,320 But horses can be stolen as well. 407 00:26:30,120 --> 00:26:33,000 So there are different types of loss and. 408 00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:36,880 And grief isn't a response that happens just because of death. 409 00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:40,400 It's a response that happens from loss of contact with 410 00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:44,600 someone that you love. So we support a lot of horse 411 00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:47,920 owners as well that have not only lost their horse through 412 00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:51,600 death, but perhaps they've had to rehome or sell their horse 413 00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:53,600 for a number of different reasons. 414 00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:58,840 And again, that isn't recognised by society as a true loss. 415 00:26:59,120 --> 00:27:04,440 And I myself had to sell my horse back in March and I was 416 00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:06,920 utterly devastated. And I, I still AM. 417 00:27:07,360 --> 00:27:11,720 And even though I'm, I, I train people in this, I speak about it 418 00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:18,800 all the time, The depth that I felt his loss was unbelievable 419 00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:21,640 to me, even though it was a choice that I made. 420 00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:24,520 I didn't want to have to make it, but I, I had to. 421 00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:28,480 And it was one of the most painful processes that I've been 422 00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:31,040 through. And that's awful. 423 00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:34,800 How then, Sophie, do you support others when you're going through 424 00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:38,320 exactly what they're going through yourself? 425 00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:40,840 How do you then have the strength to actually work with 426 00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:44,360 horses and with other horse owners as well that are needing 427 00:27:44,360 --> 00:27:48,080 support? There's no doubt that I had to 428 00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:50,760 take a step away from it for a little bit. 429 00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:55,920 And because Blue Cross Pet Loss Support supports owners of all 430 00:27:55,920 --> 00:28:00,560 species of pets, I had to take a step back from the equine world 431 00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:02,760 for a bit. So it's important that, you 432 00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:06,840 know, that aspect of self-care is really important. 433 00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:12,040 And I, I think that owners, we as owners can also put that to 434 00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:15,120 ourselves as well. That if you're going through the 435 00:28:15,120 --> 00:28:18,680 loss of your horse or the loss of another animal, or in fact 436 00:28:18,800 --> 00:28:22,920 any loss that you are feeling really upset and struck, struck 437 00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:26,800 with some grief over, it's important to make sure that 438 00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:29,120 you're looking after yourself as well. 439 00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:33,640 We don't always have the ability to take time off work for the 440 00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:37,360 loss of a of a pet. And that again, is something 441 00:28:37,360 --> 00:28:42,280 that within society, I believe that we should be allowed some 442 00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:45,200 compassionately for the, the death of a of a pet. 443 00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:48,800 And we're lucky at Blue Cross that we have access to support 444 00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:51,640 like that. But be kind to yourself. 445 00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:54,920 If you need to take some time off work, if you need to take 446 00:28:54,920 --> 00:28:59,240 some time away from being around horses, that's OK. 447 00:28:59,880 --> 00:29:03,000 I think people will, when they're wanting to support 448 00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:07,400 someone or a, a friend that's lost a, a, a horse, people 449 00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:11,200 within the equine community are often so generous with their 450 00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:14,160 time and their, their horses and they'll say, you know, please 451 00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:16,280 come and ride mine or spend time with mine. 452 00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:19,280 And actually, if that's not feeling right for you at that 453 00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:22,680 time, that's OK. It, it doesn't mean that you're 454 00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:24,920 ungrateful. It it means that you've just got 455 00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:27,480 to take time to process that in your own way. 456 00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:31,720 And Sophie, it's so important that you mention that there are 457 00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:34,560 different types of loss because we are in a cost of living 458 00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:39,480 crisis and we've seen the huge leaping costs that it, you know, 459 00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:41,040 that it does afford to keep a horse. 460 00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:44,440 Now, very sadly, it's becoming more and more difficult for 461 00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:46,160 horse owners throughout the country. 462 00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:50,720 Whatever situation anyone's in, with the rise in feed, the rise 463 00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:53,040 in stabling, there's less land now. 464 00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:56,600 Livery costs and all the rest of it we all know too well. 465 00:29:57,040 --> 00:30:01,080 Are you seeing a rise in people not being able to afford their 466 00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:05,680 horse on the helpline and having to deliver that support to those 467 00:30:05,680 --> 00:30:08,520 who actually have had to say goodbye and then see their horse 468 00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:12,000 go on to another family who can afford them? 469 00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:19,080 Yes, I would say that on the helpline we're noticing an 470 00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:24,440 increase in people citing that, but also we're seeing it at our 471 00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:27,960 two rehoming centres for for horses and ponies. 472 00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:32,600 They're based in Burford and at Ralston and we are noticing an 473 00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:37,000 increase in the requests of people needing to rehome their 474 00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:40,400 horse or pony because of financial reasons. 475 00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:46,200 Again, there can be a lot of shame and guilt around this and 476 00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:50,600 understandably I, I myself felt it when I was going through that 477 00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:55,560 process. But you will ultimately be doing 478 00:30:55,560 --> 00:30:58,680 what is best for your horse and also best for you. 479 00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:02,440 We know that financial struggles can be extremely stressful for 480 00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:07,600 people and if you're not able to to continue that ownership 481 00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:11,600 anymore, then you're doing a responsible thing by rehoming or 482 00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:14,920 or or selling. And that's so important to 483 00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:17,240 remember and just talk us through. 484 00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:20,600 Sophie, what kind of support you offer on the helpline? 485 00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:27,200 Is it a counselling service? So as I say, we're open seven 486 00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:30,440 days a week, 365 days of the year. 487 00:31:31,040 --> 00:31:35,640 We offer three different types of support on the the line. 488 00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:40,440 So we have a free, it's all free, but a telephone option 489 00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:44,920 that you can use where you'll be speaking to trained volunteers. 490 00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:48,680 All of our volunteers have been through an 8 week training 491 00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:53,680 process so and they have all lost a pet themselves as well. 492 00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:56,880 So they do have an understanding of that grieving process. 493 00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:02,600 We also have an e-mail service that people can contact us via. 494 00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:06,480 We also provide a web chat service. 495 00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:11,000 So that is a live chat room that people will be able to, again, 496 00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:15,160 speak to a trained volunteer completely confidentially in a 497 00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:18,040 secure chat room. So that's really lovely. 498 00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:20,800 If you're not feeling so comfortable to talk to someone 499 00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:24,160 over the phone, that can be a really lovely option for people 500 00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:26,720 as well. I think it's also worthwhile 501 00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:29,680 saying that we support support people of any age as well. 502 00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:35,040 So we do support children all the way up through to elderly 503 00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:38,800 people. So people as long as they are 504 00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:42,920 feeling the loss of an animal and that can be before, during 505 00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:46,400 or after that loss, there's no time frame on it. 506 00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:52,000 You are welcome to speak to us and receive some support and 507 00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:57,240 that important listening ear. And I'm so glad you mentioned 508 00:32:57,240 --> 00:33:00,600 that it's able to be used by children as well, Sophie, 509 00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:03,520 because as you mentioned, you know, it is something within the 510 00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:07,280 equestrian world that they experience outgrowing horses, 511 00:33:07,280 --> 00:33:11,040 which is very different to the pet ownership of dogs and cats, 512 00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:13,800 where that is a friend for life children. 513 00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:16,440 Some children will have to go through losing a horse just 514 00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:19,520 because they've outgrown them, which is a really, really 515 00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:22,680 difficult aspect of horse ownership that is actually very 516 00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:27,960 confusing to horse lovers who have to then give up their horse 517 00:33:27,960 --> 00:33:31,760 because of the situation that is to do with riding, not just to 518 00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:34,960 do with ownership. So are are you finding that 519 00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:38,400 there are many children that will use your services, Sophie, 520 00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:40,200 because of that and for that reason? 521 00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:45,240 There's still quite a limited amount of children using the 522 00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:48,520 service. We do get children that I would 523 00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:52,880 say would be early teens maybe contacting the service and 524 00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:55,400 that's quite often through our web chat service. 525 00:33:55,920 --> 00:34:00,320 But what we do see a lot of is parents who are feeling unsure 526 00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:05,200 or overwhelmed with the prospect of having to speak to their 527 00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:10,360 child about pet loss. They will contact us to get some 528 00:34:10,360 --> 00:34:14,600 support themselves. And if you head to our website 529 00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:21,679 whichisbluecross.org.uk PLS for pet loss support and then we 530 00:34:21,679 --> 00:34:26,719 have lots of things on there, workbooks et cetera, for how to 531 00:34:26,719 --> 00:34:29,159 support children through pet loss as well. 532 00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:34,239 So children can quite often find the physical aspect of 533 00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:38,639 remembering an animal really useful, whether that be planting 534 00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:43,760 a plant, writing a letter to that animal, making a scrapbook 535 00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:47,080 of memories. So there's some ideas on our 536 00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:50,239 website as to how you can support children through pet 537 00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:53,239 loss as well. Oh that is really lovely. 538 00:34:53,239 --> 00:34:55,840 How? How are you finding people that 539 00:34:55,840 --> 00:34:58,760 need you? Are vets referring them to you? 540 00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:00,680 Are you reaching out on social media? 541 00:35:01,080 --> 00:35:03,680 How are people finding your new helpline? 542 00:35:05,720 --> 00:35:09,480 Yeah, so we've been going for 30 years now. 543 00:35:09,480 --> 00:35:15,200 So definitely word of mouth is a way that people will find the 544 00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:20,160 support, but we see a huge number of people learning about 545 00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:23,640 us through their vets. So whether that be the actual 546 00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:27,440 euthanasia appointment or whether there's some quality of 547 00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:30,360 life discussions that are happening. 548 00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:34,400 So that's then when people will usually hear about us through 549 00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:37,720 their vet as well. So I would say that it would be 550 00:35:37,720 --> 00:35:41,280 vet vets and word of mouth that are the main reason why people 551 00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:44,880 will will use the service. And tell us, Sophie, about your 552 00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:47,760 lovely training offices. Sorry. 553 00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:49,040 Now let me, let me do that again. 554 00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:52,960 Sophie, tell us about your lovely support officers on the 555 00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:55,120 end of the phone. You mentioned there's 8 weeks of 556 00:35:55,120 --> 00:35:58,360 training, but what sort of people were there to greet those 557 00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:00,000 in need? Are they, you know, are they 558 00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:02,360 counsellors and therapists? Are they people that have been 559 00:36:02,360 --> 00:36:05,120 through it themselves? You know what sort of warmth 560 00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:07,640 will be greeted at the end of the phone for someone that 561 00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:12,160 actually needs you. Yeah. 562 00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:15,720 So I can, I can guarantee it will be an empathic listening 563 00:36:15,720 --> 00:36:21,080 ear at the end of the phone. So we have about 350 wonderful 564 00:36:21,080 --> 00:36:26,600 volunteers who man that the service and they as I say have 565 00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:29,600 gone through 8 weeks worth of training but they are from a 566 00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:34,800 huge variety of backgrounds. We do have people that are maybe 567 00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:38,240 counsellors or psychotherapists. We have people that have been 568 00:36:38,240 --> 00:36:45,120 nurses, carers and then we have people that have not done any, I 569 00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:50,520 suppose support services prior and but have experienced pet 570 00:36:50,520 --> 00:36:54,400 loss, understand how profoundly that affected them and are 571 00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:57,320 wanting to support others that are going through that. 572 00:36:57,800 --> 00:37:03,040 So they are trained through some really robust training. 573 00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:06,560 That's all been written in house by us and it's a condensed 574 00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:09,680 version of the fully accredited course that we train vets and 575 00:37:09,680 --> 00:37:11,480 other industry professionals with. 576 00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:16,600 So it's a really great base level for people to have have 577 00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:19,880 gone through and experienced. And we make sure that our 578 00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:23,320 volunteers are trained to a high standard because of course, 579 00:37:23,320 --> 00:37:26,480 we've got a duty of care to people accessing the service. 580 00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:31,080 We want to make sure that people are being listened to 581 00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:34,560 appropriately and, and supported in the best way that they can 582 00:37:34,560 --> 00:37:37,320 be. So I think the, the main thing 583 00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:40,560 though, is that they will listen to you and which I think is, is 584 00:37:40,560 --> 00:37:43,000 rare. I, I don't know about you, Anna 585 00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:46,240 Louise, but usually when we share something painful that's 586 00:37:46,240 --> 00:37:52,240 happened to us with loved ones or colleagues, we might be met 587 00:37:52,240 --> 00:37:55,480 with people trying to put a bit of a silver lining around it or, 588 00:37:55,480 --> 00:37:58,480 or take our pain away. You know, they don't want to see 589 00:37:58,480 --> 00:38:03,640 us feeling like that, but that can also maybe leave us our, our 590 00:38:03,640 --> 00:38:07,600 feelings being minimised or maybe not heard. 591 00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:13,360 And we would really, really hope to that all of our volunteers 592 00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:17,560 will be there to actively listen to you and, and not try to share 593 00:38:17,560 --> 00:38:20,880 anything about themselves. Although all of our volunteers 594 00:38:20,880 --> 00:38:24,520 have experienced their own pet loss, they're not there to to 595 00:38:24,520 --> 00:38:27,200 chat it through with you, they're there to listen to you. 596 00:38:27,960 --> 00:38:33,160 We've all been through sort of, well, all sorts of people that 597 00:38:33,160 --> 00:38:36,040 will begin what I call the pain Olympics. 598 00:38:36,240 --> 00:38:40,800 Oh, but you know, my situation was way worse than yours. 599 00:38:41,040 --> 00:38:44,760 You know, it becomes sometimes when you open up about a pain or 600 00:38:44,760 --> 00:38:47,760 a loss, someone will say, well, actually, I can almost outdo you 601 00:38:47,760 --> 00:38:50,960 with what I've been through, and then it becomes about them. 602 00:38:51,200 --> 00:38:54,320 So I totally get what you're saying about the importance of 603 00:38:54,320 --> 00:38:58,360 being listened to and actually talk about your story rather 604 00:38:58,360 --> 00:39:01,640 than then taking on someone else's experiences at the same 605 00:39:01,640 --> 00:39:04,640 time. Yeah, yeah. 606 00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:07,720 I quite often call those people 11 A reef because if you've been 607 00:39:07,720 --> 00:39:09,880 to Tenerife, they've been to 11 A reef. 608 00:39:09,880 --> 00:39:14,680 There's always a buzzword, isn't there, for that sort of person. 609 00:39:15,400 --> 00:39:19,040 Yeah, yeah. And oh gosh, isn't it exhausting 610 00:39:19,040 --> 00:39:23,400 when you're, you're maybe running on empty as is and 611 00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:26,600 you've reached out to someone just for a bit of a, a listening 612 00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:29,920 ear and you're, you're not met with that at all. 613 00:39:30,720 --> 00:39:33,520 And, and something that I think can also be quite unhelpful to 614 00:39:33,520 --> 00:39:37,960 hear is that the term at least. So we'll, that's what I mean by 615 00:39:37,960 --> 00:39:41,680 trying to put that silver lining around it that, you know, I've, 616 00:39:41,760 --> 00:39:44,200 I've lost my house. Well, at least he was 30, you 617 00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:45,920 know, he had such a great life with you. 618 00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:49,800 And, and yes, that is to be commended that a horse got to an 619 00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:55,920 old age, but it it, it doesn't mean that that loss is any less. 620 00:39:57,680 --> 00:40:00,760 Sophie, what do we do if employers, friends, family, 621 00:40:00,760 --> 00:40:04,920 colleagues around us don't have a clue or an understanding about 622 00:40:04,920 --> 00:40:08,440 the loss of a of a horse? How can we bridge the gap? 623 00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:16,080 Yeah, something that I will quite often try and live by is 624 00:40:16,080 --> 00:40:20,000 that I can't change other people's behaviour, but I can 625 00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:24,120 change my own. And so I would suggest that of 626 00:40:24,120 --> 00:40:27,600 course, if you're, if it's a really close person to you, 627 00:40:27,600 --> 00:40:33,240 maybe a spouse, brother, sister, children that are not 628 00:40:33,240 --> 00:40:35,320 understanding it and it's leaving you feeling quite 629 00:40:35,320 --> 00:40:40,680 isolated or upset, is to, to, to speak to them and, and really 630 00:40:40,680 --> 00:40:44,320 ask that they, they listen to you without judgment. 631 00:40:44,920 --> 00:40:47,560 And, and that can feel quite scary and vulnerable. 632 00:40:47,560 --> 00:40:51,760 But I think with people who are important figures in your life, 633 00:40:52,040 --> 00:40:56,160 it's really good if you can advocate for yourself, as 634 00:40:56,160 --> 00:41:00,880 difficult as that might be. However, if it's someone who's 635 00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:04,240 maybe on the yard, we always have that one person on a livery 636 00:41:04,240 --> 00:41:07,120 yard, don't we? That's, you know, got an opinion 637 00:41:07,120 --> 00:41:10,920 about everything. If it's someone that maybe is 638 00:41:10,920 --> 00:41:14,400 just sharing opinions and not getting it and they're not that 639 00:41:14,400 --> 00:41:18,040 important to you, let them do their thing. 640 00:41:18,440 --> 00:41:23,880 Don't worry about what their opinion is of your situation. 641 00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:26,480 You've got to do what feels right for you. 642 00:41:26,560 --> 00:41:30,240 You and your horse are #1 in this scenario. 643 00:41:32,120 --> 00:41:35,400 And you've mentioned children and the activities they can do. 644 00:41:35,400 --> 00:41:39,200 What extra help and support do they need when losing a horse 645 00:41:39,200 --> 00:41:41,120 that an adult doesn't necessarily need? 646 00:41:41,120 --> 00:41:46,120 Or are we all the same? Now, a lot of that can depend on 647 00:41:46,120 --> 00:41:50,360 age with children and what age they are and maybe at what stage 648 00:41:50,360 --> 00:41:54,600 of development they are also considering about whether the 649 00:41:55,040 --> 00:41:58,280 child or adult is neurodiverse as well. 650 00:41:58,280 --> 00:42:02,200 So there are lots of different considerations that we have to 651 00:42:02,200 --> 00:42:05,240 make when we're supporting someone who is grieving. 652 00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:09,880 So I would say one of the the biggest takeaways for supporting 653 00:42:09,880 --> 00:42:16,320 children and young people is to, if appropriate, involve them and 654 00:42:16,320 --> 00:42:18,080 involve them in that conversation. 655 00:42:18,080 --> 00:42:22,240 Try not to hideaway the fact that the pony is being sold or 656 00:42:22,240 --> 00:42:25,360 the pony is poorly. This can quite often be the 657 00:42:25,360 --> 00:42:30,120 first time that children can have their first experience of 658 00:42:30,120 --> 00:42:32,800 death or loss is through a pet loss. 659 00:42:33,320 --> 00:42:38,120 So it is important to be upfront with them and to use language 660 00:42:38,120 --> 00:42:41,680 that they understand. And something that we will quite 661 00:42:41,680 --> 00:42:45,240 often try and do is soften our language again because it feels 662 00:42:45,240 --> 00:42:49,760 like a bit of a, a sticky area to talk about, but we might use 663 00:42:49,760 --> 00:42:52,840 terms like put to sleep instead of euthanasia. 664 00:42:54,120 --> 00:42:57,880 Now put to something like put to sleep might not be so great for 665 00:42:57,880 --> 00:43:01,080 children because they can take things more literally. 666 00:43:01,200 --> 00:43:05,440 And so if a child sees that the pony has been put to sleep and 667 00:43:05,440 --> 00:43:09,800 then later on mum and dad are talking about going to sleep, 668 00:43:10,200 --> 00:43:14,080 that might make them feel worried about themselves 669 00:43:14,080 --> 00:43:17,880 sleeping. Mum and dad sleeping because the 670 00:43:17,880 --> 00:43:20,360 pony went to sleep and never came back. 671 00:43:20,680 --> 00:43:24,640 Could that happen to me as well? So there's subtle language 672 00:43:24,640 --> 00:43:27,320 shifts that you might need to consider making. 673 00:43:27,320 --> 00:43:31,280 And so say we have lots of information on our website about 674 00:43:31,280 --> 00:43:35,560 supporting children and also if you're a parent that is worried 675 00:43:35,560 --> 00:43:38,960 or feeling apprehensive about speaking to your child, please 676 00:43:38,960 --> 00:43:42,320 contact Pet Loss Support and we will be more than happy to 677 00:43:42,320 --> 00:43:47,680 support you as well. You've mentioned briefly, 678 00:43:48,200 --> 00:43:52,400 Sophie, about getting another horse and I know you say that 679 00:43:52,400 --> 00:43:54,600 we're all individual and that is so true. 680 00:43:54,960 --> 00:43:58,280 But how do you deal with the time when we do want to get 681 00:43:58,280 --> 00:44:01,360 another horse and when is that right time is there, is there a 682 00:44:01,360 --> 00:44:07,640 recommendation on that? There's no recommendation on it 683 00:44:07,720 --> 00:44:10,880 because it's how long is a piece of string? 684 00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:18,000 It's really got to be down to you as the person who is going 685 00:44:18,000 --> 00:44:20,400 to give a home to another animal. 686 00:44:21,360 --> 00:44:23,600 Now there might be certain things that you would like to 687 00:44:23,600 --> 00:44:26,400 try before maybe purchasing another horse. 688 00:44:26,720 --> 00:44:31,640 Perhaps you if you don't currently have a horse, you 689 00:44:31,640 --> 00:44:34,480 could try spending time at the yard again, maybe where you're 690 00:44:34,480 --> 00:44:37,040 going to be keeping it. How does it feel to be there and 691 00:44:37,040 --> 00:44:41,560 be around horses again? You could loan a horse or share 692 00:44:41,560 --> 00:44:45,080 a horse, you know, start easing yourself back in and, and maybe 693 00:44:45,080 --> 00:44:50,520 riding or doing groundwork with other people's horses so you can 694 00:44:50,520 --> 00:44:53,800 start to get that taster of what it feels like to be back in that 695 00:44:53,800 --> 00:44:57,000 community before you take the plunge and and buy a horse 696 00:44:57,000 --> 00:45:00,600 again. It might be that you actually 697 00:45:00,600 --> 00:45:03,400 just want to stay learning or sharing you just dipping your 698 00:45:03,400 --> 00:45:07,200 toe into the water. Or it might be that you cannot 699 00:45:07,280 --> 00:45:10,880 imagine life without a horse at all, and you simply must go and 700 00:45:10,880 --> 00:45:12,920 get another horse quite quickly afterwards. 701 00:45:13,480 --> 00:45:15,760 There can be judgement from people about that. 702 00:45:15,760 --> 00:45:19,600 And again, it's not wrong, it's just different. 703 00:45:19,600 --> 00:45:25,200 People do things differently and we must try and respect each 704 00:45:25,200 --> 00:45:27,400 other's decisions. As long as it's not harming 705 00:45:27,400 --> 00:45:30,840 another person or an animal, we must respect what feels right 706 00:45:30,840 --> 00:45:34,320 for each other. It's, it is an interesting 707 00:45:34,320 --> 00:45:37,040 dynamic, isn't it, That sometimes it helps us to replace 708 00:45:37,040 --> 00:45:40,400 that hole in our lives. And I know like you've mentioned 709 00:45:40,400 --> 00:45:42,840 as well, we see that with our cats and dogs. 710 00:45:42,840 --> 00:45:46,720 I know when I lost my beloved Ella, you know, people saying, 711 00:45:46,720 --> 00:45:50,600 oh, get a dog straight away because that will fill the gap. 712 00:45:50,600 --> 00:45:53,800 It will make home, you know, house feel like a home again. 713 00:45:54,400 --> 00:45:58,160 And whilst it is empty in my life without her and there is a 714 00:45:58,160 --> 00:46:01,360 dog shaped hole in my heart, we just haven't been able to get 715 00:46:01,360 --> 00:46:04,400 another dog because of that pain and that emotion. 716 00:46:06,160 --> 00:46:09,720 Sophine, what do we do if our horse is feeling a sense of loss 717 00:46:10,040 --> 00:46:14,840 after losing a herd mate? So there are a number of 718 00:46:14,840 --> 00:46:20,840 different ways that horses can exhibit grief responses. 719 00:46:21,160 --> 00:46:25,400 There hasn't been a huge amount of research into it, but you 720 00:46:25,400 --> 00:46:28,640 will of course know stress signals from horses. 721 00:46:28,640 --> 00:46:34,280 Some might start running around, they might be vocalising, they 722 00:46:34,280 --> 00:46:37,400 might be defecating more, weaning more. 723 00:46:37,640 --> 00:46:41,880 So there are certain signs that you'll be able to see tension in 724 00:46:41,880 --> 00:46:45,080 the face, scraping at the pouring at the ground. 725 00:46:45,440 --> 00:46:48,120 So it's really important that you keep an eye out for what 726 00:46:48,120 --> 00:46:52,480 might be stress signals for your horses companions. 727 00:46:53,880 --> 00:46:57,760 I think something that is really important to note is of course 728 00:46:57,760 --> 00:47:01,480 we we talk about horses and ponies, but there will be people 729 00:47:01,480 --> 00:47:03,880 hopefully listening to this podcast that have donkeys and 730 00:47:03,880 --> 00:47:09,440 mules as well. And the donkeys in particular 731 00:47:09,440 --> 00:47:13,480 can be really susceptible to something called hyperlipaemia. 732 00:47:14,200 --> 00:47:18,560 Now that is a bodily function that is a stress response where 733 00:47:18,840 --> 00:47:22,480 it came from the wild when their prey animals that if something 734 00:47:22,480 --> 00:47:27,480 stressful happens to them, they have a big release of fat into 735 00:47:27,760 --> 00:47:31,080 their bloodstream so that they can use that as energy to keep 736 00:47:31,080 --> 00:47:33,200 running away from the the stress. 737 00:47:34,440 --> 00:47:38,760 Of course, when they're not actually using that fat that has 738 00:47:38,760 --> 00:47:42,320 been mobilised into the bloodstream, it can start to 739 00:47:42,320 --> 00:47:47,760 clot into major arteries, things like their heart, their liver, 740 00:47:48,000 --> 00:47:51,440 and it can start to shut down their system and it can be 741 00:47:51,440 --> 00:47:54,880 fatal. So donkeys we know also have a 742 00:47:54,880 --> 00:47:58,200 really strong bond with one another and they they can be 743 00:47:58,200 --> 00:48:01,880 pair bonded. So it is extremely important 744 00:48:01,880 --> 00:48:07,720 that if a a bonded pair or a companion of a donkey is 745 00:48:08,600 --> 00:48:11,640 euthanized or a bit more difficult if they're being 746 00:48:11,640 --> 00:48:14,800 rescued and moved, but if they've been, if they've died, 747 00:48:15,160 --> 00:48:18,880 that that donkey is able to see the body and spend time with the 748 00:48:18,880 --> 00:48:23,960 body of the deceased companion. This is now becoming more 749 00:48:23,960 --> 00:48:26,840 widespread with horses and ponies as well, and it is 750 00:48:26,840 --> 00:48:31,840 something that is recognized as being usually beneficial for the 751 00:48:31,960 --> 00:48:37,880 remaining companion. So it might feel slightly 752 00:48:37,880 --> 00:48:42,680 unnatural for us and you might see that the horse or pony or or 753 00:48:42,680 --> 00:48:46,880 donkey maybe nips at the companion that's died pause at 754 00:48:46,880 --> 00:48:48,640 them in an attempt to get them up. 755 00:48:49,560 --> 00:48:51,720 They might just sniff them and walk away. 756 00:48:51,720 --> 00:48:54,160 Or they might be completely unbothered and just go about 757 00:48:54,160 --> 00:48:57,680 grazing or or eating their their their hay. 758 00:48:58,320 --> 00:49:05,120 So if you can allow time for the companions to see, sniff and be 759 00:49:05,120 --> 00:49:10,320 with the deceased animal, we need to make sure that there is 760 00:49:10,320 --> 00:49:13,160 companionship available for the remaining horses. 761 00:49:13,160 --> 00:49:16,720 That's quite an important aspect as as we know of horse carers. 762 00:49:17,160 --> 00:49:20,520 So if this is a time that you're able to plan for euthanasia or 763 00:49:20,520 --> 00:49:25,160 plan for rehoming or selling, make sure that the remaining 764 00:49:25,160 --> 00:49:30,600 horses have companionship. But there can be real nuances to 765 00:49:30,600 --> 00:49:32,400 this, as there is with everything. 766 00:49:32,400 --> 00:49:37,520 So if you are worried about the remaining horses, speak to your 767 00:49:37,520 --> 00:49:40,560 vet, see if there's anything that you can do to help them. 768 00:49:40,560 --> 00:49:44,640 Maybe some enrichment is needed. Make sure that you try and stick 769 00:49:44,640 --> 00:49:47,840 to their routine. We know that equines are so 770 00:49:47,840 --> 00:49:52,160 routine driven, so those little things can can be really helpful 771 00:49:52,160 --> 00:49:55,280 and just keeping a close eye on the companions in the days 772 00:49:55,280 --> 00:50:00,200 following. And should we be aware, Sophie, 773 00:50:00,200 --> 00:50:05,000 of any symptoms that we may be feeling or noting ourselves when 774 00:50:05,000 --> 00:50:08,480 we've lost our beloved horse? Signs of grief, signs that we're 775 00:50:08,480 --> 00:50:12,120 not coping and signs that actually we should be using your 776 00:50:12,320 --> 00:50:14,880 helpline service. If otherwise we've thought we're 777 00:50:14,960 --> 00:50:19,960 we're OK, we're dealing with it. It's interesting that you said 778 00:50:19,960 --> 00:50:24,800 the term not coping, and I think that this is something that we 779 00:50:24,800 --> 00:50:28,680 can be really quite hard on ourselves within, especially the 780 00:50:28,680 --> 00:50:32,560 equine community that we should be getting on with, with what 781 00:50:32,560 --> 00:50:34,000 we're doing. You know, that there's jobs to 782 00:50:34,000 --> 00:50:36,720 do, there's people to feed. We're, we're always going to be 783 00:50:36,720 --> 00:50:42,320 moving forward and showing yourself some kindness at a time 784 00:50:42,320 --> 00:50:45,040 like this is really, really important. 785 00:50:45,840 --> 00:50:49,320 There can be a huge array of things that we can experience 786 00:50:49,320 --> 00:50:53,200 when we're grieving. We can have of course, physical 787 00:50:53,200 --> 00:50:59,280 responses to it. Emotional reactions to grief can 788 00:50:59,280 --> 00:51:03,440 be so far and wide. So again, it's important to not 789 00:51:03,440 --> 00:51:06,720 be harsh on yourself or maybe others if they're grieving in a 790 00:51:06,720 --> 00:51:10,400 different way to how you would would react as well. 791 00:51:11,840 --> 00:51:15,600 But I wouldn't say that there has to be a baseline for you to 792 00:51:15,600 --> 00:51:20,520 contact Blue Cross. We are there for anyone and 793 00:51:20,520 --> 00:51:24,480 everyone and it doesn't matter if you would like to ask a 794 00:51:24,720 --> 00:51:27,920 question and you've got some wonderings, if you're just 795 00:51:27,920 --> 00:51:32,400 wanting to cry, if you're wanting to share memories, it 796 00:51:32,400 --> 00:51:35,000 doesn't matter. You are all welcome to spend 797 00:51:35,000 --> 00:51:39,000 time with us on the helpline. And without naming any names, 798 00:51:39,040 --> 00:51:41,840 can you share with us, Sophie, some, some of those people that 799 00:51:41,840 --> 00:51:44,880 you've helped where you've heard feedback as to how the talking 800 00:51:44,880 --> 00:51:46,200 has helped? Because I know some people 801 00:51:46,200 --> 00:51:49,520 think, oh, like you say, you know, we're practical people, us 802 00:51:49,520 --> 00:51:52,200 equestrians, we can get on. We're, we're dealing with it. 803 00:51:52,200 --> 00:51:54,760 We've got things, you know, animals to feed, families to 804 00:51:54,760 --> 00:51:56,720 sort, you know, it's all under control. 805 00:51:56,960 --> 00:52:00,280 But can you give us an example of of those who have helped, who 806 00:52:00,280 --> 00:52:03,680 might have fed back and said, actually This is why talking has 807 00:52:03,680 --> 00:52:09,080 helped me in my life? Quite a lot of the people, and 808 00:52:09,080 --> 00:52:13,360 certainly not all but quite a lot, can feel isolated for one 809 00:52:13,360 --> 00:52:16,360 reason or another. That could be because they don't 810 00:52:16,360 --> 00:52:20,200 have anyone around them that they feel they can talk to and 811 00:52:20,200 --> 00:52:23,120 are supported by. Perhaps friends and family 812 00:52:23,120 --> 00:52:28,280 members aren't quite understanding it and it's lovely 813 00:52:28,280 --> 00:52:32,800 to be able to just be heard and held in that space. 814 00:52:33,120 --> 00:52:38,040 And we have people that contact us for years after the loss of 815 00:52:38,040 --> 00:52:42,320 their horse. So there there isn't an end time 816 00:52:42,320 --> 00:52:46,400 frame to that. It's a significant loss and we 817 00:52:46,400 --> 00:52:50,640 have an increasing number of equestrians contacting the 818 00:52:50,640 --> 00:52:54,840 service, Which it makes me feel so happy because we're usually a 819 00:52:54,880 --> 00:52:57,600 very stoic breed of people, aren't we? 820 00:52:58,040 --> 00:53:01,360 And we don't need to be all the time. 821 00:53:03,160 --> 00:53:05,840 Sophie, thank you so much for coming on Curious Equestrian. 822 00:53:05,840 --> 00:53:09,120 For those listening who really would like to use your service 823 00:53:09,120 --> 00:53:12,280 or maybe they know a loved one or someone in their circle that 824 00:53:12,280 --> 00:53:13,920 really needs you for your service. 825 00:53:14,320 --> 00:53:16,040 How do they find you in getting in touch? 826 00:53:17,320 --> 00:53:21,240 Absolutely. So they can contact us, as I 827 00:53:21,240 --> 00:53:26,040 said, from 8:30 AM to 8:30 PM every day, including Christmas 828 00:53:26,040 --> 00:53:28,680 Day. Our telephone number is 829 00:53:28,800 --> 00:53:36,760 08000966606. You can also reach the team via 830 00:53:36,760 --> 00:53:45,360 e-mail and our e-mail address is plsmail@bluecross.org.uk and we 831 00:53:45,360 --> 00:53:48,320 have our live web chat that is available at 832 00:53:48,320 --> 00:53:53,680 bluecross.org.uk/PLS. And it goes to say as well, 833 00:53:53,680 --> 00:53:56,960 there is so much literature and information on our website as 834 00:53:56,960 --> 00:54:00,440 well about grieving and also the animals that are maybe left 835 00:54:00,440 --> 00:54:02,680 behind as well. So we have support for people 836 00:54:02,680 --> 00:54:08,920 and animals on our website. Thank you so much Sophie, for 837 00:54:08,920 --> 00:54:11,720 coming on Curious Equestrian. It means so much to us. 838 00:54:13,120 --> 00:54:14,600 Real pleasure speaking to you today. 839 00:54:14,600 --> 00:54:18,040 Thank you for inviting us to talk about what's sometimes 840 00:54:18,040 --> 00:54:20,600 quite an uncomfortable but necessary conversation. 841 00:54:20,600 --> 00:54:21,440 So thank you.