The more you do it, the more you discover that you can develop
this beautiful two way communication with the horse,
the art of relationship, the forward are of results.
Because didn't want to get pressure release training.
And then I decided right then and there I don't know how I
have to train all the traditional things like writing
and lunging and whatnot. I will find a way and that's
what I did and if I don't know how I will just pause until I do
know. Parents bought a hammer than a
whip because that was advised by the riding school.
OK, a hammer to keep your your child safe.
A whip. A whip is designed to inflict
pain without inflicting injury. So many huge debates in the
equestrian industry. I've heard many a row, many a
debate about whether we should be hand feeding our horse and
giving them treats because it makes them bulgy and bitey and
nippy and badly mannered. What are your thoughts?
Do you often feel like the odd one out at your stables because
other horse lovers don't understand that the bond with
your horse is more valuable than a ride in the arena?
Well, Sandra Popimer is the founder of the Hippologic
Clicker Training Academy and a horse woman from the Netherlands
with a unique training approach. Her mission is to help horse
people like us enhance the friendship with our horses by
teaching us to use positive reinforcement as a two way
communication system, building mutual trust and understanding
and strengthening the horse human bond.
So how can we learn how to be a good friend to our horse?
And how can we use treats in our Clipper training without
creating greedy, pushy horses? Let's find out, shall we With
Sandra. Sandra, welcome to Curious
Equestrium. Well, thank you very much for
the invite and thank you for having me.
Now you've got to tell us where did your passion for positive
reinforcement begin? Oh, that's in my childhood.
I loved horses. Yeah.
When I was 12, there was a neighbor.
We lived in a, in a in a city, but there was a neighbor that
had the horse trailer. So we always played detective,
like would this man have horses, you know?
And then finally we figured out he might have horses because
there was always straw and hay laying on the on the on his
driveway. So one day we were brave enough,
my neighbor and I, and yeah, we knocked on the door, we rang the
doorbell and we asked if we could take care of the horses or
see the horses or I don't know what the question was.
I was so nervous. Yeah, we could see the horses
and we kind of never left. So they became our three lease
horses and I just wanted to be loved by a horse.
And these horses were very, very distanced from people.
They just didn't like people so much.
So we were just there every Saturday from 8:00 AM to 5:00 PM
in awe, just watching them and getting to know them.
And then in the summer they just went to the posture and they
were like, yeah, we have been in the stable for six months, so
you are not going to get me. So we had to be patient.
And when you're 12, you have all the time, you can sit in a, in a
posture for 4 hours until the horse comes to you.
And then we were so honored, you know, and a layer in my writing
lessons, I learned to use the whip and I learned to to kick
them forward and, and all the things they taught me, like
don't let them win the horses. We're not like that.
They were not like, oh, I won last last week.
You didn't catch me. No, the next week was a new day.
So if I behaved more friendly then then they were friendly.
I just, I just wanted to become friends.
And that didn't work resolutely. And now in your sessions, Santo,
you've developed a really unique method and technique for working
with horses and particularly those of a sensitive disposition
and those who have been rescued have difficult paths.
But what would you say your positive reinforcement sessions
look like now in in your sessions?
Well, first, like now I do everything, this positive
reinforcement, I've been doing this 1999, something like that.
So like in the beginning I just started with tricks and I didn't
know much about it. And now I, I cannot even go back
to traditional training with pressure release because I just
changed my whole mindset. So what does it look like in the
beginning? You teach a voice that, that the
marker signal that pinpoints the desired behaviour is followed by
something they want to have an appetitive.
And usually it's food because that's usually the easiest.
You don't have to work with food.
But since I'm teaching and I'm teaching online, it's so much
easier to say like, yeah, let's use some food.
And the what I discovered when I started training of horses at
the BCSPCA to get more experience because in Canada
they were not that open in 2012 to positive reinforcement horse
training. So and the BCSPCA was.
So I trained their horses so I could train with a lot of rescue
horses. And what I discovered, what was
really surprising to me, because with traditional training,
usually the horse really listens the best to the trainer and and
then you have to wait and see if they will do it for other people
just as good. But with positive reinforcement,
the behaviour and the choice of doing the behaviour is in the
horse negative reinforcement with pressure release, usually
the horse gets in a responsive mode and if you don't apply it
as good as the trainer. And a perfect example is that
horses in riding schools, when they are ridden by a really good
rider that can apply pressure release, really, really good.
The horse is lovely, but put a beginner on the back and that's
what doesn't want to go forward. But with positive reinforcement,
the behaviour is more in the horse and since they have to do
the behaviour first and then have to wait to see if it gets
rewarded, so it will be reinforced in the horse.
It's the horse that starts to offer the behaviour more and
more and that's what's so different about it.
So in the beginning, the first few sessions you learn, you
teach the horse that a click means this is desired behavior,
and then they quickly start offering that behavior more and
more. And in the beginning I also
thought this is about the food. But even if you don't have food,
they still will do the behaviors for you.
And, and then I discovered I think it's more and more about
the choice that you give the horse because if you give them
really a choice, it was really a choice.
It's not. It's not like if you do this,
you get a treat. If you don't, you don't.
No, if you do this, you get a treat.
If you do something else, you might get something else.
Then there's also the food, usually you don't have to work
for the food, there is food available.
So it's not like, OK, make them hungry.
What they suggested in dog training in the 90s, make sure
they're hungry because then they will vote for a treat.
Now it's the opposite. Make sure that they are well fed
so they don't have that anxiety and the need that it's that it's
that's a trade off. Like you're hungry so I have
control about the food. It's not like that.
If you do it well and the more you do it, the more you discover
that you can develop this beautiful two way communication
with the horse. Because if he doesn't want to do
it, that is super valuable feedback.
Because then you can ask why don't you want to do it?
Is it because something else is more reinforcing?
For instance, you want to trail a load your wars, but the grass
next to the trailer is way more reinforcing than the trailer.
Or he doesn't want to leave his friends, his friends are more
reinforcing. Or doesn't he want to go in the
trailer because he's afraid of the trailer?
So by his feedback, by not going into the trailer and you pay
attention, you get a lot of information about what your
voice is actually thinking. Of course, there's a lot of
guesswork, but we get, we become good guessers when we pay
attention and, and horses too, they will become good guesses.
Is this what you want? And.
Is Sandra is the positive reinforcement?
Is it always in the treat or is it in praise and love and
affection? Is it in scratches?
What do you use? What techniques do you use?
It's not always about the treats and in positive reinforcement
once the horses after a few sessions, depending on the
history of the horse, I found that that more and more the the
choice is really something that motivates them.
If you start working with horses that have a background of
negative reinforcement, so pressure release and also
punishment. Some horses are really afraid to
offer behaviors. I was, I was a member of Yahoo
Clicker training list and it was all in English and it was all
scientific English and I was not good at that and I was too
afraid to ask questions. But I had two friends and then
my mentorship, they became my mother's that translated the
scientific English to Dutch in normal day-to-day Dutch.
And, and I was also doing Pirelli and I was doing Pirelli
and I, I got the results very quickly.
Rally is based on pressure release, the natural
worksmanship and, but they had a system and that was so
beautiful. If your words doesn't want to do
XYZ, go back to booklet #5 bullet .3.
I'm like, that's what I need for positive reinforcement.
So that's what I've been working on since then.
So some horses in the beginning, because I worked with a lot of
rescues, I noticed that some horses don't wanna dare to offer
behavior because it has been punished In like 1 of the things
that you see natural horsemanship people or teachers
do is that they, the horse walks away, the horse gets yanked on
the on the lead rope and with the, with the rope holder, which
is pretty hoarse tool, it inflicts pain or severe
discomfort. So they don't they're scared to
offer behaviour because it has in the traditional way, it's
usually punished. Your horse is standing still, he
walks off. No, it's not allowed.
So now you have to teach your horse that there will be no
repercussions, no punishment and that and you have to entice him
to start offering behaviour. So it starts really small, but
after a few sessions and pretty quickly between 5:00 and 10:00
sessions in general. And the sessions are very short,
about 5 minutes. So it was in an hour or two, the
horse discovers that he has a choice and that he cannot really
make mistakes because there will be no punishment.
But some horses, they are so that you're suffering from
learned helplessness. So they're so shut down or
they're so, so traumatized, then, yeah, then you'll have to
really open them up with more food and more treats.
But in general, I find it very, very interesting to you to see
that it's the thought is a reward and it reinforces the
behaviour and it's it's an entry point of the communication.
Once they understand that they have to do and they get
something in return, then then they start offering behaviours.
And if you don't punish your desired behaviour by not giving
a treat, they you discover that some horses are really inventive
and, and they, they come up with all kinds of ideas.
And if you say like you're laying down now I want that in
the repertoire, I just click and treat Barrett's in the
repertoire like that, then you only have to add a cue on it so
that they don't lay down whatever they want, preferably
whatever you want. So yeah, yeah, it is about the
food, but it's it's some horses love scratches, some some are
not that mount faded by food. But in general horses eat 16
hours a day. So in general, they're is the
easiest thing to work. It's really interesting.
Is it because I know that different dog breeds and also
obviously different dog personalities can be less or
more food motivated? I remember we lost our beloved
colleague not long ago, but he was absolutely wonderful and,
and, and so intelligent and loved trick training and loved
to learn to roll over and stay and to stand on his back legs.
And he absolutely loved his trick training.
And he wasn't food motivated at all, but he loved to have that
engagement and that connection. Obviously being a working dog
and having the brain for it when whereas other dogs like oh,
little beloved Labrador, Heinz 47 mix, she was so food
motivated and you know, would be all about getting that treat.
And I was going to ask you whether you found, do you find
that some horse breeds are more motivated by food than others?
Is there a sort of link at all to new?
Things well, I have found that that like and I don't want to
insult anybody but what we call in the Netherlands the cold
blooded horses like the Fjordan horses, Frisian horses, Irish
cops they usually are very food marketed and they don't care
that much about pressure. So if you're doing natural
horsemanship with those kinds of breeds, those kinds of breeds
are more likely like you go ahead with your training stick
and not moving and they drive their people crazy because like
the reinforcement pressure really still works.
But then you'll have to up the pressure to a point where you
as, as the owner who loves the horse just can't.
Because. And and that's a tipping point
for many horse owners of those breeds that they start to look
like I, I, I just cannot use the width that much because now I
really know this is, this is level 4, this is hurting, but I
don't know what else to do. And then, yeah, they fight
positively enforcement. And they, they, they, they
discover a whole new personality of their horse that the horse
wants to work with them and for them.
But yeah, create a win, win. But I haven't really come across
breeds that are not food motivated when I have come
across individuals. But there are like food
motivated horses and then super food motivated almost and then
individuals that don't care less.
But I I think the difference between a dog and a horse is
that a horse is is meant to graze 16 hours approximately a
day. They need more food, lower
calorie, high fiber where dogs is it's just they can do with
one meal at least. I know I don't know much about
dogs, but I know many dog people feed the dog one once a day.
And I was like, that's not enough, is it?
Yeah, they're not grazers. Yeah, exactly that.
So I was going to ask, does does the positive reinforcement with
treats? Do you have success with every
horse you work with? Do they all want to give you
something in return for that treat?
Up until now and there's no guarantee for the future, Yes.
However, I work with a very very traumatized mule and I never
worked with a mule. I always find those individuals
or they find me. I don't know what it is.
Anyway, I find that mules you couldn't approach her at all.
She was food motivated, but her her fear was way higher that on
the survival importance than than food.
It took a really, really long time.
I never got to hand feed her or touch her.
But I did get, I managed to train her to take deworming
because she can do that from a distance, don't need to touch
the animal. But the thing was positive
reinforcement. What I like so much about it is
that it you're going to learn the individual.
Because if they don't like, I don't know, special horse food
or carrots, you try something else.
So then already teaches you what, what, what they love and
what they don't. And when I trained my wild horse
Kira, she didn't eat carrots and and and apples because you don't
find that in the nature reserve in the Netherlands.
No. They eat grouses and and and
branches. And so she was like the first
few weeks she was like, you eat the carrots to her friends.
Well, she could die. He was his wife and that's the
way that she did it. She in the beginning grass
pellet, she didn't even touch that.
Like it took a few weeks before she said like, oh, everybody's
eating that everybody's surviving.
OK. So it's so interesting that a
horse that grew up in the wild, she was one year when I got her
that they have these survival mechanisms.
And I thought I never obtained a wild half horse, but you know
the black stallion books, it was on my but at least to tame a
world horse. I never thought I got the
opportunity living in the Netherlands.
But her mother was an expert pony that they were keeping for
grazing purposes in a nature reserve.
And then my friend had an Andalusian stat farm.
One of those escaped the herd. So yeah, that's how I ended up
with a wild horse in the Netherlands.
Wow. And what was that experience
like working with a wild horse for the first time?
Well, scary because I was pregnant at the time when I say
yes to wild horse. Wow.
And I also had a miscarriage, so I I didn't want to be in danger.
Like no, so I'm like, you know what, I just decided I am going
to do this was posted reinforcement and I don't know
how exactly I had like 10 years of experience, but not was I
never think about horse. I decided to do it was positive
reinforcement. That was like a few months in
when I when she told me like no, no pressure.
So that was my favoriting point. I can tell you more about that.
But so, yeah, because I was pregnant, I was like, she was
not that tall. Her mother likes more poorly.
So, you know, they're not super big and her father was a big
indolution. But but if they're wild, they're
strong. And she was so fearful, she
tried to climb over the the wall of the box the stole, but she
was wet. She was not tall enough, but
that's how scared she was. If you open the door, she tried
that and in panic, full mode panic.
So, yeah, that took a few weeks, but only three weeks.
And the reason I know it's so many three weeks is that I
started my blog because I started an online training
journal to just keep track because I never tamed a wild
horse. I thought this is maybe once in
a lifetime opportunity. I want to document everything.
Yeah. So that's that's how it started.
And then I did everything, this positive reinforcement.
And then I took her to the arena where I started to do it really,
because I had results, this really method.
And then one day I was doing what's called a circling game.
I, I was just blinded by the results I got.
But if I think now how horrifying in like how hard it
is to do those small circles with a training stick on this
end and a rope all that, then anyway, because I had to, I told
her to lay down already. We did trick training and all
that. And so she could lay down.
And one day I was just doing the circling game, which is kind of
pointing, but all the, all the three metre long ropes, very,
very small circle. But then you have a lot of
control. So it makes sense in a way.
And I was, she didn't want to trot and, and she was like, she
was stiffening up and she had this very less.
And I was watching her face and she was like, she had this face.
And I was like, OK, I'm just in here, which is not really game
at all anyway. But then I believe that so.
And then I'm like, yeah. And she's still not going.
And now I'm at this point where you have to do, I don't know, as
level 1 pressure, level 2 and up.
And I couldn't do it, but I was threatening her with the
training stick if you don't do it.
And I saw something change in her face and she, she was like,
I'm laying down. And I knew immediately, first of
all, this behavior has been trained 100%.
Second of all, she was very young.
So I'm like, you are so vulnerable by just laying down
from the trot, like laying down. I'm like, what a risk you're
taking by offering a behaviour that is.
And I'm just getting goosebumps by how brave that was to say.
I don't want to be pressured. And I remember, of course, I
went to her and like, I talked to her.
So she got like, I don't even know if I got like a treat,
probably not. But like, pressure was off.
And then I had this video in my hand, like Fast forward this
movie, like now she's one and yes, she's 1 and I'm doing
something. Yeah, now she's one.
But what if she's 4 and I'm starting her in the saddle and
she finds it too much pressure because that's her opinion and
she's laying down. That wouldn't be safe or
convenient. So I remember she was on the
boarding facility. I, I was on my bike.
I had to buy 6 kilometers to home.
I had only one in my mind, like this was her feedback.
She didn't want to get pressure release training.
And then I decided right then and there, I don't know how I
have to train her. All the traditional things like
riding and learning and whatnot, I will find a way and that's
what I did. And if I don't know how, I will
just pause until I do know. So yeah, that was that was like
a big decision. And from that day on, I just, I
don't know how to train yours to go sideways with positive
reinforcements. I will figure it out.
Thank you so much for sharing that kind of story because you
have to have an element of bravery to look back and
reassess and re evaluate and, and change the way you're doing
things and actually say, wasn't too happy about that.
But I'm going to change direction.
I'm going to be flexible, I'm going to learn, I'm going to be
open. I'm going to be humble.
And then also not only that, but to share the story with us and
our listeners, giving us all the chance to look back and sort of
re evaluate our training sessions and what we're doing
and what we're happy with and, and actually what we'd like to
change. And actually a lot of these
conversations are happening now where we're all reassessing and
thinking, Oh yeah. Things like what you were just
describing the, the circling game.
Is it really a game? Is it really fair?
Is it really what we want to be doing?
And we all have that opportunity with our horses, don't we, to
kind of stop in our tracks and, and, and change what we're
doing. Yes, we do have a choice and we
do have the opportunity. And like I have given this so
much thought because this was in 2010 and I was already doing
click and train for 10 years, but also doing great for about
that same time. But I also was a writing
instructor back in the Netherlands and I realized that
the the, the struggles people had in the saddle, we're not
from a lack of knowledge about riding.
Everybody knows the riding aids. Like we all know that.
But why does our horse still doesn't want to go into the
corner, you know, in the scary corner or doesn't want to jump,
whatever. So then I moved to doing ground
work because I discovered that there was a lot of communication
going on and a lot of me like he is pretending to be scared.
But what I saw was I see a scared horse and I don't believe
that horses are that well of actors.
They, they respond to their environment and they gave you
very honest feedback. So then I was doing groundwork
lessons and because the natural watchmanship method that I was
using had all these steps and booklets, it was very easy to
teach other people. But then in the Netherlands, it
was in the north of the Netherlands, there was a lot of
Frisians and Fjordan horses. And like I said, those those
horses didn't really respond. So I felt that I had to pressure
some days the owner to use more pressure to get the results.
And that didn't really sit well with me because I could so
understand that you love your horse.
Why do you want to use that much pressure that it's really
aversive. But then again, I did the same
thing. So I wondered so many hours,
like why, why, why? And then my motivation was I
wanted to be like a real horse person or a good rider.
And then you have the thing that if, if the authority says do
this, you do it. If the instructor in the arena
says use your whips, use your Morley.
He has to listen. I did it because I wanted to be
a code rider. I wanted to be a real horse
person. I don't know what it is, but
that's, that's, that's, you know that.
And then when I came home and I was like watching the the freeze
horses in the in the in the field and we tried to ride them
and use the whip like we were taught.
The next week we came with a whole part they say bye, Brenda.
And so so that was nice trouble. And I see that in a lot of
people, like, you know, it's hard to change your ways because
first you get the results. With special cases, it's very
easy to get the results and the results give the person a status
or I can control. And that's very enticing status.
And when I discovered natural watchmanship, I thought this was
it until I started to realize because I at the same time I was
doing positive reinforcement in my first pony, when he saw the
pink Skippy ball that was my target, he came run at me.
And when he saw the targets or the training stick, the carrot
stick, he was like, no. So to him it was not nothing to
know with carrots, it was just a stick.
It was just, he was like goodbye.
So that made me think. So for me and I, I know like,
oh, the natural wishmanship, it was fantastic because there was
all these steps and it worked and it got me the results and
then I could teach it to other people.
And then the positive reinforcement, the kicker
training didn't come was a method.
So I had to develop a message like what am I doing and stuff
like that. So when I deep dive more and
more in positive reinforcement, I thought, I will not make this
mistake. What I did was natural because
was natural was it? I thought, this is it, I will
never change. This is perfect communication.
I believed all the marketing, befriending your words and
whatnot. OK, positive reinforcement.
Now I'll keep my eye open because maybe there's something
else which is even better because my drive was always to
to befriend the horse, to communicate, to be honest with
the horse and, and to develop this relationship.
That's why I have horses. That's, that's the main reason.
So yeah, it's very important to miss him.
That's the animal. And I love that, Sandra, because
on this podcast we've had many a conversation about how do we
identify our relationship with our horse?
You know, for so long we've all described it as horse and owner.
And now we're seeing a sort of a rise in people saying, actually,
I'm quite uncomfortable with the word owner because it's
suggesting that this beautiful, essentially wild creature that
we've domesticated is ours and it's our possession.
And actually that's incorrect. But then it, you know, it throws
up the question, well, what are we?
Are we their guardian? Are we their caregiver?
Are we their mum or be their friend?
And I love that you describe that it, that relationship to
you is so important as a friendship.
And I think that's just lovely because it, it's so different to
hear that, you know, I, I can't think of anyone else who would
say, oh, my horse is my friend, other than funny enough, my mum
actually has always said that our horses are our friends.
And, and mum describes that and, and she has with all of her
animals and her pets ever since she was a child and would
describe that her rabbit was her friend.
And I just think that is so wonderful to change that
narrative and to change that label, if you like, from, you
know, owner to friend and what why do you think it's important
for you to use that, that title or, or that relationship status,
if you like. Well, then relationship status
comes from, from I, I really did a lot of self development and,
and I, and I done deep to find my values and, and horse welfare
is, is my #1 value in training. So if it doesn't benefit the
horse, it's off the table. And having, I don't have like 5
values that are very, very important.
And I, I use them in difficult situations.
Like sometimes people come to me and they say, like, my horse
needs farrier now and I need to train him now because his feet
up to you and we have to do it. And maybe there's no time for
for this positive reinforcement. And then I just look at my
values and what I can offer in that situation.
And then I'm like, does this horse really need his feet
trimmed today? Or maybe we have two weeks,
Maybe they're not like, and then we have two weeks to start
training and to do the best we can.
But sometimes in emergencies, we we have an emergency.
So yeah, also the reinforcement or welfare, if it's life and
that situation, you do anything, you know, and usually in
emergencies, there's no time to train, although you can do a lot
to, to make it easier. Like sometimes you can use food
instead of a twitch because I do believe that's better for the
welfare of the horse. But sometimes, yeah, you need to
use a twitch on the horse in an emergency because there's also
safety for the Fed and for yourself and for divorce.
But I I found that I don't need a twitch anymore.
That, and isn't that true? I love that I'm waving my
pencil, but haven't you just nailed that in terms of life as
well? If you've got your values and
your morals, whether it's with your horses or in your, you
know, your wider life, whether it's in your career, whether
it's in your social life, it, it, it maps the way for you,
doesn't it? And helps you make make
decisions and, and find direction.
And isn't that the way that actually we can apply a lot of
this to our horsemanship, but it spans across the rest of our
life as well? Yes, and once you know your
values, I can tell you it's easy to have values when everything
goes smoothly. It's in the moment where you
need your values the most. That's why it's difficult.
Those situations when you have a farrier and he starts hitting
your horse because he pulled back his leg and he smacks your
horse. That's the moment where I
learned to say don't do that. Here's your money.
And then call somebody else who does the other three feet
because that is so, so scary. But that's what I promised my
horse. Your welfare is my #1 So if that
means that I have to be standing up to you, which I sometimes
find very difficult because you know, the barrier or the vet is,
is a person with, you need that person or the welfare.
So yeah, there's like some conflict there, like it's a
stranger, but it's also the professional so.
And you have to be. Fine.
It's that courage and that bravery, Yeah, that comes
actually you, you realize you have to stand up for your horse.
The thing is, you can sleep at night.
You were rude to that person, or maybe you disappointed that
person or whatever. But I'm now like, you know what?
You get your full price. So you didn't show up for
nothing, but you're fired. Yeah.
But it's it's it's super scary. And then I want to say something
about like, yeah, what do you call yourself?
Because it's. So it's culturally different.
In the Netherlands we usually say boss.
Oh yeah. Boss of you yeah, we spend and
words are super important because they they they trigger
feelings if you call a horse storm or I don't know, some some
bad name it triggers something in your unconscious.
So I'm very known as omen. You're the name is is the the
the sign omen. Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Yeah. And it's, and actually, it's
going to lead. It's going to direct, isn't it?
How, how something plays out. If there's a negative name or
there's a negative title or a negative use of words, it's
going to that's going to channel into the relationship and the
training session. It's going to have a knock on
impact. Exactly.
So I like horse guardian. I like that word.
And then when I moved to Canada it's it's and the whole like
horsemanship world, says leader. But when the marketing says
leader, they usually mean boss, because a real leader has
followers and a leader doesn't have to control the herd.
A leader is the leader and and and the herd wants to follow the
leader. You're right, because even in
families and friendship groups, you will have a natural leader,
not who is ruling the roost or laying down the rules or
dominating everyone, but they just have that infectious energy
and charisma and maybe a bit of wisdom that everyone chooses to
follow. And that's so positive, isn't
it? And that's a like a natural herd
or pack instinct, much better than boss, yeah.
And then, and then there's also something like the horses don't
really have one leader. It's it's like if you look into
the horse behavior that like usually the pregnant mask decide
I'm wandering off because I'm thirsty, I'm going to look for
water. And then everybody said like,
oh, that's a good idea. But for other decisions, other
horses in the world make those decisions.
So it's it's more like, yeah, whoever takes that role in that
moment, it's very environmentally because all the
behavior is triggered by the environment.
Not all, Yeah, all you have internal environment, hormones
and, you know, an external environment.
But if you see it in that way, yeah, like the leadership role
we do. Like I like Guardian because I
don't have a better word and I'm not an English native speaker so
I don't know what the word guardian triggers.
To most people here, Taker seems a little bit distance he should
die for food and I'm off but. Yeah.
For me personally, I, I really want to do everything to to be a
good friends, to protect them if needed and and vice versa.
Sometimes they tell me there's something scared there, let's
get out of there. This is not safe.
And when you listen, you stay safe, so.
That's so true. And Sandra, I've got to weave us
back round to talking about the treats and the positive
reinforcement because this does strike up so many huge debates
in the equestrian industry. I've heard many a row, many a
debate about whether we should be hand feeding our horses and
giving them treats because it makes them bulgy and bitey and
nippy and badly mannered. What are your thoughts on this
and have you ever experienced that where a horse has become a
bit too much and a bit headstrong because of the hand
feeding? Yes, of course, because food is
so motivating and if we reinforce undesired dangerous
behaviours, we get what we reinforce.
So that's one second of all. Sometimes people come to me and
say like, when can I stop using treats?
Think about this. Have you ever gone to a riding
school or a riding instructor and the first thing you asked
was when can I start riding without a whip?
When can I start riding without a bit?
No. When can I can I train my horse
at liberty without a rope or a training state?
Nobody asked that. But when it comes to food, when
can I stop feeding the horse? So that's, that's an interesting
thing to think about. And we have to know that.
So in general, you yeah, I start with what I call table, table
manners for horses, because table manners.
Any cats? And just like we humans, if we
are toddlers and we see a table full of food, we run to the
desserts and we start to eat because we're hungry.
We want to eat the good stuff. We have to learn to take a
plate, to use cutlery, to sit down while we're eating.
All these rules. And that's why I call it table
manners, because it's not natural behavior in the nature.
There's food all around. Horses are lucky and they don't
have to wait. Or there are no no, there are
rules. In general, if they see grass,
they can eat grass in posture. But now we have to teach them.
I have treats in my pockets, but you're not allowed to touch me,
you're not allowed to self-serve and you're not allowed to bite.
So with positive reinforcement, because they are so motivated by
the food, you can simply teach them to use their lips only, not
their teeth. You can teach them not to mug
you or touch you or sniff your pockets.
Because I will reinforce polite behavior and polite behavior is
learned behavior, just like we humans is not polite to run
around in a meeting, but maybe we have the urge to do that if
we hadn't learned a young young new ones that it's not polite.
So that that's that's the second key lesson.
Your key to success that I train is you have to be learn your
your horse to be patients. You're not getting the treat
right away. You're getting the treat.
There are rules. So that's that's the foundation
you you teach your horse the rules.
Mugging is not allowed. I want you to be do the food
etiquette, table manners, and I want you to be patient.
So that's where you start. And some horses are the food
triggers too much, so you start with lower value, maybe even
just normal hay. They also chew longer on hay and
the chewing relaxes them. So there's all kinds of things
that you can use and maybe some horses are just not ready for
treats, but yeah. And Sandra, I've got to ask,
you've got a real passion for working with rescue horses.
How do you transform the broken inverted commas and traumatised
rescue horse and reverse those terrible, terrible things that
that humans have done to that horse and actually rehabilitate
them into a whole healthy, happy horse once again?
Well, first of all, you don't have to do everything with
positive reinforcement because not every everybody has gone the
same path as I have. So, but even if you don't have a
little bit of positive reinforcement, it, it, it can
change and heal the horse. So even if you don't just like
trick, trick training or a little bit of target training,
that already can make a difference.
Because what what was so amazing when I worked with the rescue
horses at that species that that, that I noticed that they
didn't only trust me, but they started to trust other people as
well. And that was something I did not
expect. Because in the positive
reinforcement, you amount choices and you give them back
control over their own body. Because how many times, I would
say almost always is it us that says, I want to clean your feet,
give me your leg now. This is how long I will do it
now instead of saying like, Are you ready?
No, are you not ready? No worries.
I will. I will ask again in like because
we determine everything. We determine what, what, what
they eat, how much, the time, we determine if they are in a stall
or pasture, we determine and we choose their friends, we choose
their mates, we choose if they're made, we make, we
control basically everything. And if in training it's the
same. But if we have like a part of
training where we can say you can choose, it really empowers
them. And if they are shut down
because they have the feeling, learn helplessness.
And that means that they think no matter what I do, I have no
control. I've worked with one horse.
He was so extraordinary. He was so shut down.
So he was the perfect riding horse because people mistakenly
see that for obedience. But if you see that the horse
has no joy at all, he just does whatever, then to me, like all
the funnest go on. But I had to train him to touch
a target and to follow a target so I could bring him to the past
chair. And every time I trained him, I
trained him once a week. I had the feeling that I had to
start all over, that he had forgotten.
Normally that's not the case. They were like, I don't know
what to do. Oh, I see the target.
Oh, I remember. But this horse was just like, he
was so afraid and so shut down. That was.
Yeah, besides the mule that I worked with.
Yeah, the most of the year horse that I worked with.
But even him, he came around, but it took, it took time.
Thinking about that, Sandra one, do you think we need to be more
patient with our horses who have had really difficult backgrounds
in terms of even horses that are sold, some have sold from pillar
to post, even if they've not come from a rescue background.
They've had a traumatic ordeal being passed from pillar to
post, not staying with one family for for long at all and
then moving into a different home with different training
techniques and put into different environments.
Do we need to be more patient with the horses that come into
our livery yards and our riding schools?
That's the first question. And also, how does it feel for
you with horses that actually you feel like you can't fix and
you're left feeling like actually, can I reverse the
harsh techniques that have been used against this horse?
Well, what about the? Patience, it was like we can't
force and I don't like to force more patience.
I would maybe we would like change the question, what is
your value? What is your purpose for the
horse? How do you want your
relationship to be? Because there are people that
and again, that that has to do with status because owning a
horse or a shoe status, I like to me, it's so normal.
I worked really, really hard to to buy my first pony and all
that. And to me, it's such a way of
life. But sometimes, like people say
to me, oh, you have a horse. You must be very rich.
Oh, we all love what you. Tell us.
Oh, we've all heard that one, haven't we?
We've all heard that one, no? So they're just other thing that
like people who who compete with horses, what is their value?
Like what is more important, the horse or the winning?
What is your purpose? If you have horses that that are
your employees because there are no riding horses, where's the
tipping point that you choose for the horse?
Or like, I think the patience has to do everything with your
value. Like to me, my horses, well,
they are my employees because I make training videos with them.
But they are kind of lucky because if they don't want to do
stuff, I'm going to find a way that they want to change their
minds on their own. And sometimes I have to say
like, yeah, not today, not today.
So patience is, is, is has a lot to do with what do you really
want? Do you do you want a
relationship or do you want to be getting the results now?
Because when I I always say like put the hour of relationship
before the hour of results, because once you have that
really good relationship, it's amazing what forces will do for
you. But if you just want the results
and you're trying to get the results without a relationship,
yeah, you might have to rely on on aversives to make him do it.
That's so interesting because if we all saw our horses perhaps as
pets and as friends and as family members, before riding,
before sports animal, before competitor, then maybe they
would be passed from pillar to post less.
Maybe they would stay within families more.
It wouldn't be a case of being outgrown.
It wouldn't be a case of needing a horse for a higher level of
competition. You would add to your herd
rather than selling on your herd members because they are first
and foremost members of the family or members of the herds
that are staying with you. It changes everything doesn't
it? Just by reevaluating the
relationship. Yeah.
But we have to be aware that our behavior is as much influenced
by our environment as that is for the horse.
If if we surround ourselves with people that all say we all have
to do things we don't like. And for us humans and especially
for women, it's very dangerous to be kicked out of our herd
about out of our community. So if we are the odd ones that
that don't want to weep on horses and that wants to build a
relationship is necessary to to have a community with like
minded wish people that you feel safe around that nobody
questions why you have treating your pocket that nobody
questions that my Morse says we have done writing.
So I dismount and that was it for today.
If that's the norm, if that's normal, it makes it so much
easier for people to follow their hearts.
I've written A blog once where I I described that because it's
it's the the human behavior is so fascinating to me because the
blog name is it all starts with a helmet and a whip.
My parents bought a helmet and a whip because that was advised by
the writing school. OK, a helmet to keep your child
safe, but a whip? A whip is designed to inflict
pain without inflicting injury. When I heard that it was like
that's why you usually don't get open wounds from years in a way
but it still hurts. That is that is what we're all
equipped with as we start our journey with horses or it
certainly has been. Hopefully, hopefully times are
changing. But Sandra, when you look ahead
to the next few years, what do you hope for horses?
You know, you've talked about that, that many children start
being passed at a helmet in a whip.
What do you hope for the next generation and and for horses
lives as we look ahead? Well, I've seen in especially in
the UK and in the Netherlands, like the clicker training for
horses is everybody almost seems to have heard of it.
Of course, that's my bubble as well, my environment.
But like in and I think it becomes more and more
mainstream. That's what I hope and I know a
lot of people and this podcast contribute so much to awareness
and to you don't lose control is positive enforcement.
You have the relationship and I would say you, you don't have
maybe more control, but since you have the horse on your side,
you create better and safer horses.
Because I see so many accidents happen where the route of the
course is, is is miscommunication and and and
misunderstanding. Like if a horse is very fearful
and we use our legs and whips to get that horse past that scary
thing. Well, we immediately have may
help make that association scary thing, whipping scary thing,
pain instead of scary thing. Oh, I go to my owner or guardian
or friend and saying what do you think?
I'm scared? Maybe if I get the time to check
it out I'm not scared. But because they tell us I'm
scared, can I have a little bit of time?
They won't get a threshold. They don't get into flights
because flight fight or freeze and the flight and fight state
of a horse. That's what causes the accident
so many times. Oh, and since I do positive
reinforcement. No horse has ever stepped on my
toes again. This is also something like that
happened all the time. Like wear boots because horses
step on their toes into it when you stop doing traditional
training. That never happened to me.
Wow, Sandra, I've talked to you all day.
We've learned not only lessons in horsemanship and training,
but life lessons as well. Thank you so much for coming on
Curious Equestrian. You're going to stick around for
some members only questions and continue the conversation in our
membership only zone. But before then, tell the
listeners where they can find you for your blog and your
training and for any advice. Well, for your listeners, I will
have something special because I do positive reinforcement and
every relationship begins with peeping.
So you gave me the opportunity to be here and I want to give
something back and something to your listeners.
So I will share that. Where can you find me?
You can find me at clickertraining.ca.
That's my website. I am, or you can find me if you
Google Hippo Logic on on. I'm hypologic on Facebook and
I'm hypologic on YouTube. And can we ask, can we ask what
you might be sharing with our listeners?
Well, if you, if you want to know, because positive
reinforcement training is a skill and we all know what it's
like. If you learn something new, you
get stuck and then maybe you get unstuck.
But what I, what I would like to offer you and, and the listeners
is a free clicker training assessment.
And that's a free thing. It's a, it's a one-on-one Zoom
call and we go over the main things that the skills that you
need to develop and you can assess yourself.
I'm not assessing you. You assess yourself because it's
a self-assessment that guides you through the process.
And at the end of the assessment you know exactly what the weak
spots in your training are and the whole thing your training
away you need to focus on. Thank you SO.
Much do want to know how I can help you.
You can always ask, but yeah. And it's very fun to do, yeah.
Thank you so much for your generosity, for your kindness.
For those listeners who want to make the most of that
opportunity, please do reach out to Sandra in all the ways that
she just listed, the ways to find out on her social media and
her website. Thank you so much, Sandra, for
that. Stick around because you're
going to be answering some membership questions.
But for now, thank you so much for coming on Curious
Equestrian. Thank you so much for listening
to and watching Curious Equestrian.
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