1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:04,040 The more you do it, the more you discover that you can develop 2 00:00:04,040 --> 00:00:07,160 this beautiful two way communication with the horse, 3 00:00:07,160 --> 00:00:11,840 the art of relationship, the forward are of results. 4 00:00:11,880 --> 00:00:14,840 Because didn't want to get pressure release training. 5 00:00:15,320 --> 00:00:19,160 And then I decided right then and there I don't know how I 6 00:00:19,160 --> 00:00:22,000 have to train all the traditional things like writing 7 00:00:22,000 --> 00:00:27,520 and lunging and whatnot. I will find a way and that's 8 00:00:27,520 --> 00:00:33,200 what I did and if I don't know how I will just pause until I do 9 00:00:33,280 --> 00:00:36,080 know. Parents bought a hammer than a 10 00:00:36,080 --> 00:00:39,280 whip because that was advised by the riding school. 11 00:00:39,280 --> 00:00:41,880 OK, a hammer to keep your your child safe. 12 00:00:42,440 --> 00:00:45,560 A whip. A whip is designed to inflict 13 00:00:45,680 --> 00:00:50,120 pain without inflicting injury. So many huge debates in the 14 00:00:50,120 --> 00:00:53,760 equestrian industry. I've heard many a row, many a 15 00:00:53,760 --> 00:00:57,760 debate about whether we should be hand feeding our horse and 16 00:00:57,760 --> 00:01:02,200 giving them treats because it makes them bulgy and bitey and 17 00:01:02,200 --> 00:01:05,480 nippy and badly mannered. What are your thoughts? 18 00:01:05,800 --> 00:01:09,320 Do you often feel like the odd one out at your stables because 19 00:01:09,440 --> 00:01:13,080 other horse lovers don't understand that the bond with 20 00:01:13,080 --> 00:01:17,320 your horse is more valuable than a ride in the arena? 21 00:01:17,760 --> 00:01:21,320 Well, Sandra Popimer is the founder of the Hippologic 22 00:01:21,400 --> 00:01:25,040 Clicker Training Academy and a horse woman from the Netherlands 23 00:01:25,200 --> 00:01:29,240 with a unique training approach. Her mission is to help horse 24 00:01:29,240 --> 00:01:34,000 people like us enhance the friendship with our horses by 25 00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:38,320 teaching us to use positive reinforcement as a two way 26 00:01:38,320 --> 00:01:42,840 communication system, building mutual trust and understanding 27 00:01:43,160 --> 00:01:46,040 and strengthening the horse human bond. 28 00:01:46,720 --> 00:01:50,840 So how can we learn how to be a good friend to our horse? 29 00:01:51,520 --> 00:01:54,920 And how can we use treats in our Clipper training without 30 00:01:54,920 --> 00:01:59,360 creating greedy, pushy horses? Let's find out, shall we With 31 00:01:59,400 --> 00:02:04,480 Sandra. Sandra, welcome to Curious 32 00:02:04,480 --> 00:02:08,000 Equestrium. Well, thank you very much for 33 00:02:08,039 --> 00:02:10,000 the invite and thank you for having me. 34 00:02:10,720 --> 00:02:14,200 Now you've got to tell us where did your passion for positive 35 00:02:14,200 --> 00:02:19,040 reinforcement begin? Oh, that's in my childhood. 36 00:02:19,400 --> 00:02:21,920 I loved horses. Yeah. 37 00:02:21,920 --> 00:02:25,480 When I was 12, there was a neighbor. 38 00:02:25,480 --> 00:02:29,000 We lived in a, in a in a city, but there was a neighbor that 39 00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:33,560 had the horse trailer. So we always played detective, 40 00:02:33,560 --> 00:02:37,320 like would this man have horses, you know? 41 00:02:37,600 --> 00:02:42,000 And then finally we figured out he might have horses because 42 00:02:42,000 --> 00:02:46,680 there was always straw and hay laying on the on the on his 43 00:02:46,680 --> 00:02:50,640 driveway. So one day we were brave enough, 44 00:02:51,560 --> 00:02:55,560 my neighbor and I, and yeah, we knocked on the door, we rang the 45 00:02:55,560 --> 00:02:58,720 doorbell and we asked if we could take care of the horses or 46 00:02:58,720 --> 00:03:01,200 see the horses or I don't know what the question was. 47 00:03:01,520 --> 00:03:05,720 I was so nervous. Yeah, we could see the horses 48 00:03:05,720 --> 00:03:10,720 and we kind of never left. So they became our three lease 49 00:03:10,720 --> 00:03:16,920 horses and I just wanted to be loved by a horse. 50 00:03:17,360 --> 00:03:22,640 And these horses were very, very distanced from people. 51 00:03:22,640 --> 00:03:26,040 They just didn't like people so much. 52 00:03:26,480 --> 00:03:31,600 So we were just there every Saturday from 8:00 AM to 5:00 PM 53 00:03:32,520 --> 00:03:36,760 in awe, just watching them and getting to know them. 54 00:03:36,760 --> 00:03:40,240 And then in the summer they just went to the posture and they 55 00:03:40,240 --> 00:03:45,720 were like, yeah, we have been in the stable for six months, so 56 00:03:45,720 --> 00:03:51,800 you are not going to get me. So we had to be patient. 57 00:03:51,800 --> 00:03:55,680 And when you're 12, you have all the time, you can sit in a, in a 58 00:03:55,680 --> 00:03:59,840 posture for 4 hours until the horse comes to you. 59 00:03:59,880 --> 00:04:03,240 And then we were so honored, you know, and a layer in my writing 60 00:04:03,240 --> 00:04:07,800 lessons, I learned to use the whip and I learned to to kick 61 00:04:07,800 --> 00:04:13,720 them forward and, and all the things they taught me, like 62 00:04:13,720 --> 00:04:18,760 don't let them win the horses. We're not like that. 63 00:04:18,920 --> 00:04:21,800 They were not like, oh, I won last last week. 64 00:04:21,800 --> 00:04:25,200 You didn't catch me. No, the next week was a new day. 65 00:04:25,200 --> 00:04:34,360 So if I behaved more friendly then then they were friendly. 66 00:04:34,920 --> 00:04:37,440 I just, I just wanted to become friends. 67 00:04:37,440 --> 00:04:43,800 And that didn't work resolutely. And now in your sessions, Santo, 68 00:04:43,800 --> 00:04:47,920 you've developed a really unique method and technique for working 69 00:04:47,920 --> 00:04:51,320 with horses and particularly those of a sensitive disposition 70 00:04:51,320 --> 00:04:54,640 and those who have been rescued have difficult paths. 71 00:04:55,080 --> 00:04:59,120 But what would you say your positive reinforcement sessions 72 00:04:59,120 --> 00:05:01,600 look like now in in your sessions? 73 00:05:02,680 --> 00:05:07,080 Well, first, like now I do everything, this positive 74 00:05:07,080 --> 00:05:13,600 reinforcement, I've been doing this 1999, something like that. 75 00:05:13,600 --> 00:05:20,160 So like in the beginning I just started with tricks and I didn't 76 00:05:20,160 --> 00:05:26,760 know much about it. And now I, I cannot even go back 77 00:05:26,760 --> 00:05:31,680 to traditional training with pressure release because I just 78 00:05:31,800 --> 00:05:36,240 changed my whole mindset. So what does it look like in the 79 00:05:36,240 --> 00:05:40,120 beginning? You teach a voice that, that the 80 00:05:40,120 --> 00:05:44,920 marker signal that pinpoints the desired behaviour is followed by 81 00:05:44,920 --> 00:05:46,920 something they want to have an appetitive. 82 00:05:47,240 --> 00:05:51,120 And usually it's food because that's usually the easiest. 83 00:05:52,040 --> 00:05:54,280 You don't have to work with food. 84 00:05:54,280 --> 00:05:57,640 But since I'm teaching and I'm teaching online, it's so much 85 00:05:57,640 --> 00:06:01,000 easier to say like, yeah, let's use some food. 86 00:06:01,560 --> 00:06:07,520 And the what I discovered when I started training of horses at 87 00:06:07,520 --> 00:06:14,640 the BCSPCA to get more experience because in Canada 88 00:06:14,640 --> 00:06:19,600 they were not that open in 2012 to positive reinforcement horse 89 00:06:19,600 --> 00:06:23,440 training. So and the BCSPCA was. 90 00:06:23,600 --> 00:06:27,560 So I trained their horses so I could train with a lot of rescue 91 00:06:27,560 --> 00:06:29,960 horses. And what I discovered, what was 92 00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:35,080 really surprising to me, because with traditional training, 93 00:06:35,360 --> 00:06:42,360 usually the horse really listens the best to the trainer and and 94 00:06:42,360 --> 00:06:46,760 then you have to wait and see if they will do it for other people 95 00:06:46,880 --> 00:06:51,080 just as good. But with positive reinforcement, 96 00:06:51,640 --> 00:06:56,280 the behaviour and the choice of doing the behaviour is in the 97 00:06:56,280 --> 00:07:02,440 horse negative reinforcement with pressure release, usually 98 00:07:02,440 --> 00:07:07,240 the horse gets in a responsive mode and if you don't apply it 99 00:07:07,520 --> 00:07:13,040 as good as the trainer. And a perfect example is that 100 00:07:13,160 --> 00:07:18,200 horses in riding schools, when they are ridden by a really good 101 00:07:18,200 --> 00:07:23,240 rider that can apply pressure release, really, really good. 102 00:07:23,680 --> 00:07:27,400 The horse is lovely, but put a beginner on the back and that's 103 00:07:27,400 --> 00:07:31,600 what doesn't want to go forward. But with positive reinforcement, 104 00:07:32,400 --> 00:07:36,440 the behaviour is more in the horse and since they have to do 105 00:07:36,440 --> 00:07:41,840 the behaviour first and then have to wait to see if it gets 106 00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:46,200 rewarded, so it will be reinforced in the horse. 107 00:07:46,400 --> 00:07:51,000 It's the horse that starts to offer the behaviour more and 108 00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:55,000 more and that's what's so different about it. 109 00:07:56,320 --> 00:08:00,120 So in the beginning, the first few sessions you learn, you 110 00:08:00,120 --> 00:08:04,440 teach the horse that a click means this is desired behavior, 111 00:08:05,000 --> 00:08:09,040 and then they quickly start offering that behavior more and 112 00:08:09,040 --> 00:08:11,200 more. And in the beginning I also 113 00:08:11,200 --> 00:08:15,560 thought this is about the food. But even if you don't have food, 114 00:08:15,560 --> 00:08:18,440 they still will do the behaviors for you. 115 00:08:19,680 --> 00:08:29,520 And, and then I discovered I think it's more and more about 116 00:08:29,600 --> 00:08:33,480 the choice that you give the horse because if you give them 117 00:08:34,120 --> 00:08:37,760 really a choice, it was really a choice. 118 00:08:37,760 --> 00:08:40,120 It's not. It's not like if you do this, 119 00:08:40,120 --> 00:08:42,640 you get a treat. If you don't, you don't. 120 00:08:42,840 --> 00:08:45,240 No, if you do this, you get a treat. 121 00:08:45,400 --> 00:08:48,760 If you do something else, you might get something else. 122 00:08:48,920 --> 00:08:53,360 Then there's also the food, usually you don't have to work 123 00:08:53,360 --> 00:08:55,800 for the food, there is food available. 124 00:08:55,800 --> 00:08:58,000 So it's not like, OK, make them hungry. 125 00:08:58,000 --> 00:09:02,000 What they suggested in dog training in the 90s, make sure 126 00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:04,200 they're hungry because then they will vote for a treat. 127 00:09:04,400 --> 00:09:08,280 Now it's the opposite. Make sure that they are well fed 128 00:09:08,920 --> 00:09:13,680 so they don't have that anxiety and the need that it's that it's 129 00:09:13,960 --> 00:09:17,840 that's a trade off. Like you're hungry so I have 130 00:09:18,160 --> 00:09:20,560 control about the food. It's not like that. 131 00:09:20,800 --> 00:09:25,240 If you do it well and the more you do it, the more you discover 132 00:09:25,240 --> 00:09:29,040 that you can develop this beautiful two way communication 133 00:09:29,040 --> 00:09:31,400 with the horse. Because if he doesn't want to do 134 00:09:31,400 --> 00:09:36,920 it, that is super valuable feedback. 135 00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:40,560 Because then you can ask why don't you want to do it? 136 00:09:40,960 --> 00:09:46,560 Is it because something else is more reinforcing? 137 00:09:46,560 --> 00:09:49,400 For instance, you want to trail a load your wars, but the grass 138 00:09:49,480 --> 00:09:53,880 next to the trailer is way more reinforcing than the trailer. 139 00:09:54,280 --> 00:09:57,120 Or he doesn't want to leave his friends, his friends are more 140 00:09:57,120 --> 00:10:01,600 reinforcing. Or doesn't he want to go in the 141 00:10:01,600 --> 00:10:03,800 trailer because he's afraid of the trailer? 142 00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:08,000 So by his feedback, by not going into the trailer and you pay 143 00:10:08,000 --> 00:10:13,240 attention, you get a lot of information about what your 144 00:10:13,240 --> 00:10:16,760 voice is actually thinking. Of course, there's a lot of 145 00:10:16,760 --> 00:10:22,880 guesswork, but we get, we become good guessers when we pay 146 00:10:22,880 --> 00:10:27,440 attention and, and horses too, they will become good guesses. 147 00:10:27,440 --> 00:10:28,680 Is this what you want? And. 148 00:10:31,560 --> 00:10:34,880 Is Sandra is the positive reinforcement? 149 00:10:34,880 --> 00:10:40,160 Is it always in the treat or is it in praise and love and 150 00:10:40,160 --> 00:10:42,200 affection? Is it in scratches? 151 00:10:42,360 --> 00:10:44,880 What do you use? What techniques do you use? 152 00:10:45,400 --> 00:10:49,080 It's not always about the treats and in positive reinforcement 153 00:10:49,080 --> 00:10:54,080 once the horses after a few sessions, depending on the 154 00:10:54,080 --> 00:11:00,120 history of the horse, I found that that more and more the the 155 00:11:00,280 --> 00:11:04,520 choice is really something that motivates them. 156 00:11:04,560 --> 00:11:10,640 If you start working with horses that have a background of 157 00:11:11,720 --> 00:11:15,880 negative reinforcement, so pressure release and also 158 00:11:16,040 --> 00:11:20,960 punishment. Some horses are really afraid to 159 00:11:20,960 --> 00:11:25,000 offer behaviors. I was, I was a member of Yahoo 160 00:11:25,080 --> 00:11:30,400 Clicker training list and it was all in English and it was all 161 00:11:30,400 --> 00:11:33,640 scientific English and I was not good at that and I was too 162 00:11:33,640 --> 00:11:38,360 afraid to ask questions. But I had two friends and then 163 00:11:38,600 --> 00:11:41,480 my mentorship, they became my mother's that translated the 164 00:11:41,480 --> 00:11:45,840 scientific English to Dutch in normal day-to-day Dutch. 165 00:11:46,240 --> 00:11:52,160 And, and I was also doing Pirelli and I was doing Pirelli 166 00:11:52,360 --> 00:11:55,080 and I, I got the results very quickly. 167 00:11:57,160 --> 00:12:00,320 Rally is based on pressure release, the natural 168 00:12:00,320 --> 00:12:05,200 worksmanship and, but they had a system and that was so 169 00:12:05,200 --> 00:12:08,160 beautiful. If your words doesn't want to do 170 00:12:08,200 --> 00:12:13,240 XYZ, go back to booklet #5 bullet .3. 171 00:12:13,240 --> 00:12:17,400 I'm like, that's what I need for positive reinforcement. 172 00:12:17,400 --> 00:12:20,560 So that's what I've been working on since then. 173 00:12:22,240 --> 00:12:26,040 So some horses in the beginning, because I worked with a lot of 174 00:12:26,040 --> 00:12:30,600 rescues, I noticed that some horses don't wanna dare to offer 175 00:12:30,600 --> 00:12:35,520 behavior because it has been punished In like 1 of the things 176 00:12:35,520 --> 00:12:40,120 that you see natural horsemanship people or teachers 177 00:12:40,120 --> 00:12:45,200 do is that they, the horse walks away, the horse gets yanked on 178 00:12:45,200 --> 00:12:50,160 the on the lead rope and with the, with the rope holder, which 179 00:12:50,160 --> 00:12:59,880 is pretty hoarse tool, it inflicts pain or severe 180 00:12:59,880 --> 00:13:04,840 discomfort. So they don't they're scared to 181 00:13:04,840 --> 00:13:08,840 offer behaviour because it has in the traditional way, it's 182 00:13:08,840 --> 00:13:11,840 usually punished. Your horse is standing still, he 183 00:13:11,840 --> 00:13:14,400 walks off. No, it's not allowed. 184 00:13:14,640 --> 00:13:18,680 So now you have to teach your horse that there will be no 185 00:13:18,680 --> 00:13:24,160 repercussions, no punishment and that and you have to entice him 186 00:13:24,160 --> 00:13:27,720 to start offering behaviour. So it starts really small, but 187 00:13:28,040 --> 00:13:32,520 after a few sessions and pretty quickly between 5:00 and 10:00 188 00:13:32,520 --> 00:13:36,520 sessions in general. And the sessions are very short, 189 00:13:36,520 --> 00:13:39,640 about 5 minutes. So it was in an hour or two, the 190 00:13:39,640 --> 00:13:44,400 horse discovers that he has a choice and that he cannot really 191 00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:47,080 make mistakes because there will be no punishment. 192 00:13:47,400 --> 00:13:54,400 But some horses, they are so that you're suffering from 193 00:13:54,400 --> 00:13:58,840 learned helplessness. So they're so shut down or 194 00:13:58,840 --> 00:14:05,040 they're so, so traumatized, then, yeah, then you'll have to 195 00:14:05,040 --> 00:14:08,520 really open them up with more food and more treats. 196 00:14:08,960 --> 00:14:15,560 But in general, I find it very, very interesting to you to see 197 00:14:15,560 --> 00:14:21,400 that it's the thought is a reward and it reinforces the 198 00:14:21,400 --> 00:14:27,440 behaviour and it's it's an entry point of the communication. 199 00:14:27,560 --> 00:14:30,680 Once they understand that they have to do and they get 200 00:14:30,680 --> 00:14:35,400 something in return, then then they start offering behaviours. 201 00:14:35,400 --> 00:14:41,120 And if you don't punish your desired behaviour by not giving 202 00:14:41,120 --> 00:14:46,680 a treat, they you discover that some horses are really inventive 203 00:14:47,040 --> 00:14:50,560 and, and they, they come up with all kinds of ideas. 204 00:14:50,560 --> 00:14:54,720 And if you say like you're laying down now I want that in 205 00:14:54,720 --> 00:14:57,680 the repertoire, I just click and treat Barrett's in the 206 00:14:57,680 --> 00:15:02,080 repertoire like that, then you only have to add a cue on it so 207 00:15:02,080 --> 00:15:06,000 that they don't lay down whatever they want, preferably 208 00:15:06,640 --> 00:15:10,840 whatever you want. So yeah, yeah, it is about the 209 00:15:10,840 --> 00:15:14,760 food, but it's it's some horses love scratches, some some are 210 00:15:15,080 --> 00:15:19,640 not that mount faded by food. But in general horses eat 16 211 00:15:19,640 --> 00:15:23,920 hours a day. So in general, they're is the 212 00:15:23,960 --> 00:15:27,800 easiest thing to work. It's really interesting. 213 00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:30,760 Is it because I know that different dog breeds and also 214 00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:35,040 obviously different dog personalities can be less or 215 00:15:35,040 --> 00:15:39,240 more food motivated? I remember we lost our beloved 216 00:15:39,240 --> 00:15:43,880 colleague not long ago, but he was absolutely wonderful and, 217 00:15:43,880 --> 00:15:46,800 and, and so intelligent and loved trick training and loved 218 00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:50,160 to learn to roll over and stay and to stand on his back legs. 219 00:15:50,160 --> 00:15:51,840 And he absolutely loved his trick training. 220 00:15:52,160 --> 00:15:56,880 And he wasn't food motivated at all, but he loved to have that 221 00:15:56,880 --> 00:15:59,560 engagement and that connection. Obviously being a working dog 222 00:15:59,800 --> 00:16:02,960 and having the brain for it when whereas other dogs like oh, 223 00:16:03,160 --> 00:16:09,480 little beloved Labrador, Heinz 47 mix, she was so food 224 00:16:09,480 --> 00:16:12,920 motivated and you know, would be all about getting that treat. 225 00:16:12,920 --> 00:16:15,120 And I was going to ask you whether you found, do you find 226 00:16:15,120 --> 00:16:19,440 that some horse breeds are more motivated by food than others? 227 00:16:19,440 --> 00:16:21,560 Is there a sort of link at all to new? 228 00:16:21,560 --> 00:16:26,400 Things well, I have found that that like and I don't want to 229 00:16:26,400 --> 00:16:29,920 insult anybody but what we call in the Netherlands the cold 230 00:16:29,920 --> 00:16:35,280 blooded horses like the Fjordan horses, Frisian horses, Irish 231 00:16:35,280 --> 00:16:42,480 cops they usually are very food marketed and they don't care 232 00:16:42,560 --> 00:16:47,560 that much about pressure. So if you're doing natural 233 00:16:47,560 --> 00:16:51,000 horsemanship with those kinds of breeds, those kinds of breeds 234 00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:54,160 are more likely like you go ahead with your training stick 235 00:16:54,160 --> 00:17:01,000 and not moving and they drive their people crazy because like 236 00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:03,320 the reinforcement pressure really still works. 237 00:17:03,560 --> 00:17:08,880 But then you'll have to up the pressure to a point where you 238 00:17:09,160 --> 00:17:13,880 as, as the owner who loves the horse just can't. 239 00:17:14,319 --> 00:17:17,400 Because. And and that's a tipping point 240 00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:22,079 for many horse owners of those breeds that they start to look 241 00:17:22,079 --> 00:17:27,000 like I, I, I just cannot use the width that much because now I 242 00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:31,720 really know this is, this is level 4, this is hurting, but I 243 00:17:31,760 --> 00:17:35,440 don't know what else to do. And then, yeah, they fight 244 00:17:35,440 --> 00:17:38,720 positively enforcement. And they, they, they, they 245 00:17:38,840 --> 00:17:42,120 discover a whole new personality of their horse that the horse 246 00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:45,760 wants to work with them and for them. 247 00:17:46,400 --> 00:17:51,680 But yeah, create a win, win. But I haven't really come across 248 00:17:52,840 --> 00:17:56,720 breeds that are not food motivated when I have come 249 00:17:56,720 --> 00:18:03,240 across individuals. But there are like food 250 00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:09,320 motivated horses and then super food motivated almost and then 251 00:18:09,320 --> 00:18:11,160 individuals that don't care less. 252 00:18:11,440 --> 00:18:15,200 But I I think the difference between a dog and a horse is 253 00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:21,040 that a horse is is meant to graze 16 hours approximately a 254 00:18:21,040 --> 00:18:24,840 day. They need more food, lower 255 00:18:24,840 --> 00:18:30,200 calorie, high fiber where dogs is it's just they can do with 256 00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:34,240 one meal at least. I know I don't know much about 257 00:18:34,240 --> 00:18:38,440 dogs, but I know many dog people feed the dog one once a day. 258 00:18:38,440 --> 00:18:41,280 And I was like, that's not enough, is it? 259 00:18:41,400 --> 00:18:45,760 Yeah, they're not grazers. Yeah, exactly that. 260 00:18:45,760 --> 00:18:49,360 So I was going to ask, does does the positive reinforcement with 261 00:18:49,360 --> 00:18:51,760 treats? Do you have success with every 262 00:18:51,760 --> 00:18:54,360 horse you work with? Do they all want to give you 263 00:18:54,360 --> 00:18:57,040 something in return for that treat? 264 00:18:58,160 --> 00:19:03,240 Up until now and there's no guarantee for the future, Yes. 265 00:19:03,600 --> 00:19:12,560 However, I work with a very very traumatized mule and I never 266 00:19:12,560 --> 00:19:17,760 worked with a mule. I always find those individuals 267 00:19:17,760 --> 00:19:19,600 or they find me. I don't know what it is. 268 00:19:19,640 --> 00:19:26,320 Anyway, I find that mules you couldn't approach her at all. 269 00:19:26,480 --> 00:19:34,960 She was food motivated, but her her fear was way higher that on 270 00:19:34,960 --> 00:19:42,200 the survival importance than than food. 271 00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:46,400 It took a really, really long time. 272 00:19:46,400 --> 00:19:49,480 I never got to hand feed her or touch her. 273 00:19:49,840 --> 00:19:54,720 But I did get, I managed to train her to take deworming 274 00:19:55,560 --> 00:19:59,480 because she can do that from a distance, don't need to touch 275 00:19:59,480 --> 00:20:06,480 the animal. But the thing was positive 276 00:20:06,480 --> 00:20:09,680 reinforcement. What I like so much about it is 277 00:20:09,680 --> 00:20:13,320 that it you're going to learn the individual. 278 00:20:13,720 --> 00:20:19,040 Because if they don't like, I don't know, special horse food 279 00:20:19,240 --> 00:20:22,440 or carrots, you try something else. 280 00:20:22,560 --> 00:20:27,480 So then already teaches you what, what, what they love and 281 00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:31,120 what they don't. And when I trained my wild horse 282 00:20:31,120 --> 00:20:37,120 Kira, she didn't eat carrots and and and apples because you don't 283 00:20:37,360 --> 00:20:39,840 find that in the nature reserve in the Netherlands. 284 00:20:40,360 --> 00:20:43,800 No. They eat grouses and and and 285 00:20:43,800 --> 00:20:48,160 branches. And so she was like the first 286 00:20:48,160 --> 00:20:51,040 few weeks she was like, you eat the carrots to her friends. 287 00:20:51,040 --> 00:20:55,600 Well, she could die. He was his wife and that's the 288 00:20:55,600 --> 00:20:59,160 way that she did it. She in the beginning grass 289 00:20:59,160 --> 00:21:01,200 pellet, she didn't even touch that. 290 00:21:01,200 --> 00:21:05,560 Like it took a few weeks before she said like, oh, everybody's 291 00:21:05,560 --> 00:21:07,400 eating that everybody's surviving. 292 00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:11,800 OK. So it's so interesting that a 293 00:21:11,800 --> 00:21:16,040 horse that grew up in the wild, she was one year when I got her 294 00:21:16,360 --> 00:21:19,360 that they have these survival mechanisms. 295 00:21:19,360 --> 00:21:22,840 And I thought I never obtained a wild half horse, but you know 296 00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:27,120 the black stallion books, it was on my but at least to tame a 297 00:21:27,120 --> 00:21:29,400 world horse. I never thought I got the 298 00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:31,680 opportunity living in the Netherlands. 299 00:21:32,800 --> 00:21:36,960 But her mother was an expert pony that they were keeping for 300 00:21:36,960 --> 00:21:39,280 grazing purposes in a nature reserve. 301 00:21:39,280 --> 00:21:42,560 And then my friend had an Andalusian stat farm. 302 00:21:43,040 --> 00:21:50,040 One of those escaped the herd. So yeah, that's how I ended up 303 00:21:50,040 --> 00:21:52,120 with a wild horse in the Netherlands. 304 00:21:52,840 --> 00:21:54,520 Wow. And what was that experience 305 00:21:54,520 --> 00:21:57,160 like working with a wild horse for the first time? 306 00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:05,640 Well, scary because I was pregnant at the time when I say 307 00:22:05,640 --> 00:22:08,240 yes to wild horse. Wow. 308 00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:14,560 And I also had a miscarriage, so I I didn't want to be in danger. 309 00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:21,640 Like no, so I'm like, you know what, I just decided I am going 310 00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:26,320 to do this was posted reinforcement and I don't know 311 00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:30,720 how exactly I had like 10 years of experience, but not was I 312 00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:34,080 never think about horse. I decided to do it was positive 313 00:22:34,080 --> 00:22:37,480 reinforcement. That was like a few months in 314 00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:42,320 when I when she told me like no, no pressure. 315 00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:47,720 So that was my favoriting point. I can tell you more about that. 316 00:22:47,960 --> 00:22:51,520 But so, yeah, because I was pregnant, I was like, she was 317 00:22:51,520 --> 00:22:56,000 not that tall. Her mother likes more poorly. 318 00:22:56,000 --> 00:23:02,640 So, you know, they're not super big and her father was a big 319 00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:06,920 indolution. But but if they're wild, they're 320 00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:10,680 strong. And she was so fearful, she 321 00:23:10,680 --> 00:23:20,360 tried to climb over the the wall of the box the stole, but she 322 00:23:20,360 --> 00:23:22,360 was wet. She was not tall enough, but 323 00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:25,720 that's how scared she was. If you open the door, she tried 324 00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:29,200 that and in panic, full mode panic. 325 00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:36,480 So, yeah, that took a few weeks, but only three weeks. 326 00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:40,040 And the reason I know it's so many three weeks is that I 327 00:23:40,040 --> 00:23:43,320 started my blog because I started an online training 328 00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:46,680 journal to just keep track because I never tamed a wild 329 00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:48,760 horse. I thought this is maybe once in 330 00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:52,440 a lifetime opportunity. I want to document everything. 331 00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:55,720 Yeah. So that's that's how it started. 332 00:23:55,720 --> 00:23:58,320 And then I did everything, this positive reinforcement. 333 00:23:58,320 --> 00:24:02,440 And then I took her to the arena where I started to do it really, 334 00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:08,520 because I had results, this really method. 335 00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:12,720 And then one day I was doing what's called a circling game. 336 00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:16,720 I, I was just blinded by the results I got. 337 00:24:16,720 --> 00:24:22,400 But if I think now how horrifying in like how hard it 338 00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:26,200 is to do those small circles with a training stick on this 339 00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:32,480 end and a rope all that, then anyway, because I had to, I told 340 00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:35,960 her to lay down already. We did trick training and all 341 00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:39,160 that. And so she could lay down. 342 00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:42,480 And one day I was just doing the circling game, which is kind of 343 00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:46,600 pointing, but all the, all the three metre long ropes, very, 344 00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:49,920 very small circle. But then you have a lot of 345 00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:53,400 control. So it makes sense in a way. 346 00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:58,600 And I was, she didn't want to trot and, and she was like, she 347 00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:02,560 was stiffening up and she had this very less. 348 00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:08,080 And I was watching her face and she was like, she had this face. 349 00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:13,680 And I was like, OK, I'm just in here, which is not really game 350 00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:17,840 at all anyway. But then I believe that so. 351 00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:21,240 And then I'm like, yeah. And she's still not going. 352 00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:25,560 And now I'm at this point where you have to do, I don't know, as 353 00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:27,960 level 1 pressure, level 2 and up. 354 00:25:29,520 --> 00:25:32,480 And I couldn't do it, but I was threatening her with the 355 00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:34,720 training stick if you don't do it. 356 00:25:35,280 --> 00:25:39,960 And I saw something change in her face and she, she was like, 357 00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:44,520 I'm laying down. And I knew immediately, first of 358 00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:48,520 all, this behavior has been trained 100%. 359 00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:51,120 Second of all, she was very young. 360 00:25:51,120 --> 00:25:55,720 So I'm like, you are so vulnerable by just laying down 361 00:25:55,720 --> 00:26:01,360 from the trot, like laying down. I'm like, what a risk you're 362 00:26:01,360 --> 00:26:06,280 taking by offering a behaviour that is. 363 00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:13,520 And I'm just getting goosebumps by how brave that was to say. 364 00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:16,920 I don't want to be pressured. And I remember, of course, I 365 00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:19,840 went to her and like, I talked to her. 366 00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:23,800 So she got like, I don't even know if I got like a treat, 367 00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:27,480 probably not. But like, pressure was off. 368 00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:33,440 And then I had this video in my hand, like Fast forward this 369 00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:39,000 movie, like now she's one and yes, she's 1 and I'm doing 370 00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:41,880 something. Yeah, now she's one. 371 00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:45,800 But what if she's 4 and I'm starting her in the saddle and 372 00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:50,360 she finds it too much pressure because that's her opinion and 373 00:26:50,360 --> 00:26:55,120 she's laying down. That wouldn't be safe or 374 00:26:55,120 --> 00:26:58,760 convenient. So I remember she was on the 375 00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:01,440 boarding facility. I, I was on my bike. 376 00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:03,760 I had to buy 6 kilometers to home. 377 00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:08,320 I had only one in my mind, like this was her feedback. 378 00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:11,840 She didn't want to get pressure release training. 379 00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:16,120 And then I decided right then and there, I don't know how I 380 00:27:16,120 --> 00:27:18,480 have to train her. All the traditional things like 381 00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:24,480 riding and learning and whatnot, I will find a way and that's 382 00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:27,920 what I did. And if I don't know how, I will 383 00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:34,600 just pause until I do know. So yeah, that was that was like 384 00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:39,080 a big decision. And from that day on, I just, I 385 00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:43,320 don't know how to train yours to go sideways with positive 386 00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:46,960 reinforcements. I will figure it out. 387 00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:50,920 Thank you so much for sharing that kind of story because you 388 00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:54,520 have to have an element of bravery to look back and 389 00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:58,800 reassess and re evaluate and, and change the way you're doing 390 00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:03,040 things and actually say, wasn't too happy about that. 391 00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:05,160 But I'm going to change direction. 392 00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:07,720 I'm going to be flexible, I'm going to learn, I'm going to be 393 00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:09,360 open. I'm going to be humble. 394 00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:12,920 And then also not only that, but to share the story with us and 395 00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:16,240 our listeners, giving us all the chance to look back and sort of 396 00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:18,680 re evaluate our training sessions and what we're doing 397 00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:20,840 and what we're happy with and, and actually what we'd like to 398 00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:22,960 change. And actually a lot of these 399 00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:26,680 conversations are happening now where we're all reassessing and 400 00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:30,240 thinking, Oh yeah. Things like what you were just 401 00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:32,440 describing the, the circling game. 402 00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:34,720 Is it really a game? Is it really fair? 403 00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:36,480 Is it really what we want to be doing? 404 00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:39,840 And we all have that opportunity with our horses, don't we, to 405 00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:43,040 kind of stop in our tracks and, and, and change what we're 406 00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:47,200 doing. Yes, we do have a choice and we 407 00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:54,200 do have the opportunity. And like I have given this so 408 00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:57,760 much thought because this was in 2010 and I was already doing 409 00:28:57,760 --> 00:29:00,680 click and train for 10 years, but also doing great for about 410 00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:05,000 that same time. But I also was a writing 411 00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:09,400 instructor back in the Netherlands and I realized that 412 00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:15,600 the the, the struggles people had in the saddle, we're not 413 00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:18,360 from a lack of knowledge about riding. 414 00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:22,800 Everybody knows the riding aids. Like we all know that. 415 00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:26,360 But why does our horse still doesn't want to go into the 416 00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:30,080 corner, you know, in the scary corner or doesn't want to jump, 417 00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:33,720 whatever. So then I moved to doing ground 418 00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:36,960 work because I discovered that there was a lot of communication 419 00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:41,280 going on and a lot of me like he is pretending to be scared. 420 00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:47,160 But what I saw was I see a scared horse and I don't believe 421 00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:50,920 that horses are that well of actors. 422 00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:56,720 They, they respond to their environment and they gave you 423 00:29:56,720 --> 00:30:00,800 very honest feedback. So then I was doing groundwork 424 00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:05,040 lessons and because the natural watchmanship method that I was 425 00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:08,880 using had all these steps and booklets, it was very easy to 426 00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:11,520 teach other people. But then in the Netherlands, it 427 00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:14,880 was in the north of the Netherlands, there was a lot of 428 00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:18,760 Frisians and Fjordan horses. And like I said, those those 429 00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:24,040 horses didn't really respond. So I felt that I had to pressure 430 00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:29,560 some days the owner to use more pressure to get the results. 431 00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:34,920 And that didn't really sit well with me because I could so 432 00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:39,320 understand that you love your horse. 433 00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:45,080 Why do you want to use that much pressure that it's really 434 00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:49,280 aversive. But then again, I did the same 435 00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:51,800 thing. So I wondered so many hours, 436 00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:56,520 like why, why, why? And then my motivation was I 437 00:30:56,520 --> 00:31:02,080 wanted to be like a real horse person or a good rider. 438 00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:09,400 And then you have the thing that if, if the authority says do 439 00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:13,520 this, you do it. If the instructor in the arena 440 00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:16,640 says use your whips, use your Morley. 441 00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:23,280 He has to listen. I did it because I wanted to be 442 00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:26,160 a code rider. I wanted to be a real horse 443 00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:27,920 person. I don't know what it is, but 444 00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:30,800 that's, that's, that's, you know that. 445 00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:35,880 And then when I came home and I was like watching the the freeze 446 00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:39,920 horses in the in the in the field and we tried to ride them 447 00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:42,600 and use the whip like we were taught. 448 00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:48,720 The next week we came with a whole part they say bye, Brenda. 449 00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:55,160 And so so that was nice trouble. And I see that in a lot of 450 00:31:55,160 --> 00:32:00,080 people, like, you know, it's hard to change your ways because 451 00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:04,240 first you get the results. With special cases, it's very 452 00:32:04,760 --> 00:32:16,640 easy to get the results and the results give the person a status 453 00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:23,400 or I can control. And that's very enticing status. 454 00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:27,240 And when I discovered natural watchmanship, I thought this was 455 00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:30,600 it until I started to realize because I at the same time I was 456 00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:35,120 doing positive reinforcement in my first pony, when he saw the 457 00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:39,240 pink Skippy ball that was my target, he came run at me. 458 00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:43,440 And when he saw the targets or the training stick, the carrot 459 00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:49,400 stick, he was like, no. So to him it was not nothing to 460 00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:51,200 know with carrots, it was just a stick. 461 00:32:52,760 --> 00:32:55,840 It was just, he was like goodbye. 462 00:32:57,920 --> 00:33:02,840 So that made me think. So for me and I, I know like, 463 00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:06,080 oh, the natural wishmanship, it was fantastic because there was 464 00:33:06,120 --> 00:33:09,880 all these steps and it worked and it got me the results and 465 00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:12,200 then I could teach it to other people. 466 00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:15,720 And then the positive reinforcement, the kicker 467 00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:17,000 training didn't come was a method. 468 00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:20,480 So I had to develop a message like what am I doing and stuff 469 00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:25,640 like that. So when I deep dive more and 470 00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:29,360 more in positive reinforcement, I thought, I will not make this 471 00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:31,760 mistake. What I did was natural because 472 00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:35,400 was natural was it? I thought, this is it, I will 473 00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:37,920 never change. This is perfect communication. 474 00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:41,760 I believed all the marketing, befriending your words and 475 00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:44,800 whatnot. OK, positive reinforcement. 476 00:33:44,800 --> 00:33:49,320 Now I'll keep my eye open because maybe there's something 477 00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:54,880 else which is even better because my drive was always to 478 00:33:55,520 --> 00:33:58,960 to befriend the horse, to communicate, to be honest with 479 00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:02,240 the horse and, and to develop this relationship. 480 00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:05,960 That's why I have horses. That's, that's the main reason. 481 00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:08,960 So yeah, it's very important to miss him. 482 00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:13,679 That's the animal. And I love that, Sandra, because 483 00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:17,560 on this podcast we've had many a conversation about how do we 484 00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:19,520 identify our relationship with our horse? 485 00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:23,480 You know, for so long we've all described it as horse and owner. 486 00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:27,120 And now we're seeing a sort of a rise in people saying, actually, 487 00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:29,960 I'm quite uncomfortable with the word owner because it's 488 00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:33,639 suggesting that this beautiful, essentially wild creature that 489 00:34:33,639 --> 00:34:36,679 we've domesticated is ours and it's our possession. 490 00:34:36,679 --> 00:34:39,639 And actually that's incorrect. But then it, you know, it throws 491 00:34:39,639 --> 00:34:41,280 up the question, well, what are we? 492 00:34:41,280 --> 00:34:43,679 Are we their guardian? Are we their caregiver? 493 00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:46,639 Are we their mum or be their friend? 494 00:34:46,639 --> 00:34:50,120 And I love that you describe that it, that relationship to 495 00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:52,639 you is so important as a friendship. 496 00:34:52,679 --> 00:34:57,240 And I think that's just lovely because it, it's so different to 497 00:34:57,240 --> 00:35:01,120 hear that, you know, I, I can't think of anyone else who would 498 00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:05,120 say, oh, my horse is my friend, other than funny enough, my mum 499 00:35:05,120 --> 00:35:08,720 actually has always said that our horses are our friends. 500 00:35:08,720 --> 00:35:11,560 And, and mum describes that and, and she has with all of her 501 00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:14,560 animals and her pets ever since she was a child and would 502 00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:16,680 describe that her rabbit was her friend. 503 00:35:17,200 --> 00:35:20,320 And I just think that is so wonderful to change that 504 00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:23,960 narrative and to change that label, if you like, from, you 505 00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:28,160 know, owner to friend and what why do you think it's important 506 00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:32,120 for you to use that, that title or, or that relationship status, 507 00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:36,680 if you like. Well, then relationship status 508 00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:42,240 comes from, from I, I really did a lot of self development and, 509 00:35:42,240 --> 00:35:51,400 and I, and I done deep to find my values and, and horse welfare 510 00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:58,400 is, is my #1 value in training. So if it doesn't benefit the 511 00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:03,640 horse, it's off the table. And having, I don't have like 5 512 00:36:03,640 --> 00:36:05,960 values that are very, very important. 513 00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:11,680 And I, I use them in difficult situations. 514 00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:15,480 Like sometimes people come to me and they say, like, my horse 515 00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:21,240 needs farrier now and I need to train him now because his feet 516 00:36:21,240 --> 00:36:26,960 up to you and we have to do it. And maybe there's no time for 517 00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:33,240 for this positive reinforcement. And then I just look at my 518 00:36:33,240 --> 00:36:36,400 values and what I can offer in that situation. 519 00:36:36,720 --> 00:36:41,680 And then I'm like, does this horse really need his feet 520 00:36:41,680 --> 00:36:47,280 trimmed today? Or maybe we have two weeks, 521 00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:53,120 Maybe they're not like, and then we have two weeks to start 522 00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:55,440 training and to do the best we can. 523 00:36:57,160 --> 00:37:01,000 But sometimes in emergencies, we we have an emergency. 524 00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:06,240 So yeah, also the reinforcement or welfare, if it's life and 525 00:37:06,240 --> 00:37:10,800 that situation, you do anything, you know, and usually in 526 00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:16,080 emergencies, there's no time to train, although you can do a lot 527 00:37:16,120 --> 00:37:19,880 to, to make it easier. Like sometimes you can use food 528 00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:23,880 instead of a twitch because I do believe that's better for the 529 00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:27,240 welfare of the horse. But sometimes, yeah, you need to 530 00:37:27,240 --> 00:37:30,520 use a twitch on the horse in an emergency because there's also 531 00:37:30,520 --> 00:37:34,360 safety for the Fed and for yourself and for divorce. 532 00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:39,920 But I I found that I don't need a twitch anymore. 533 00:37:40,400 --> 00:37:43,360 That, and isn't that true? I love that I'm waving my 534 00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:47,320 pencil, but haven't you just nailed that in terms of life as 535 00:37:47,320 --> 00:37:49,240 well? If you've got your values and 536 00:37:49,240 --> 00:37:53,160 your morals, whether it's with your horses or in your, you 537 00:37:53,160 --> 00:37:56,840 know, your wider life, whether it's in your career, whether 538 00:37:56,840 --> 00:38:00,520 it's in your social life, it, it, it maps the way for you, 539 00:38:00,520 --> 00:38:02,240 doesn't it? And helps you make make 540 00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:04,680 decisions and, and find direction. 541 00:38:05,080 --> 00:38:07,760 And isn't that the way that actually we can apply a lot of 542 00:38:07,760 --> 00:38:11,360 this to our horsemanship, but it spans across the rest of our 543 00:38:11,360 --> 00:38:15,920 life as well? Yes, and once you know your 544 00:38:15,920 --> 00:38:22,520 values, I can tell you it's easy to have values when everything 545 00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:29,320 goes smoothly. It's in the moment where you 546 00:38:29,320 --> 00:38:32,240 need your values the most. That's why it's difficult. 547 00:38:32,680 --> 00:38:36,840 Those situations when you have a farrier and he starts hitting 548 00:38:36,840 --> 00:38:40,200 your horse because he pulled back his leg and he smacks your 549 00:38:40,200 --> 00:38:42,760 horse. That's the moment where I 550 00:38:42,760 --> 00:38:47,600 learned to say don't do that. Here's your money. 551 00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:51,080 And then call somebody else who does the other three feet 552 00:38:51,480 --> 00:38:56,320 because that is so, so scary. But that's what I promised my 553 00:38:56,360 --> 00:39:00,560 horse. Your welfare is my #1 So if that 554 00:39:00,560 --> 00:39:06,720 means that I have to be standing up to you, which I sometimes 555 00:39:06,720 --> 00:39:10,480 find very difficult because you know, the barrier or the vet is, 556 00:39:10,560 --> 00:39:16,520 is a person with, you need that person or the welfare. 557 00:39:16,520 --> 00:39:21,720 So yeah, there's like some conflict there, like it's a 558 00:39:21,720 --> 00:39:27,880 stranger, but it's also the professional so. 559 00:39:28,680 --> 00:39:30,320 And you have to be. Fine. 560 00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:35,000 It's that courage and that bravery, Yeah, that comes 561 00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:38,760 actually you, you realize you have to stand up for your horse. 562 00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:41,600 The thing is, you can sleep at night. 563 00:39:42,640 --> 00:39:46,200 You were rude to that person, or maybe you disappointed that 564 00:39:46,200 --> 00:39:50,480 person or whatever. But I'm now like, you know what? 565 00:39:50,640 --> 00:39:53,400 You get your full price. So you didn't show up for 566 00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:56,240 nothing, but you're fired. Yeah. 567 00:39:57,280 --> 00:40:01,720 But it's it's it's super scary. And then I want to say something 568 00:40:01,720 --> 00:40:04,000 about like, yeah, what do you call yourself? 569 00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:07,200 Because it's. So it's culturally different. 570 00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:10,120 In the Netherlands we usually say boss. 571 00:40:11,040 --> 00:40:16,360 Oh yeah. Boss of you yeah, we spend and 572 00:40:16,360 --> 00:40:20,280 words are super important because they they they trigger 573 00:40:20,280 --> 00:40:27,600 feelings if you call a horse storm or I don't know, some some 574 00:40:27,600 --> 00:40:31,320 bad name it triggers something in your unconscious. 575 00:40:31,320 --> 00:40:36,080 So I'm very known as omen. You're the name is is the the 576 00:40:36,120 --> 00:40:41,520 the sign omen. Yeah, yeah, exactly. 577 00:40:41,920 --> 00:40:43,280 Yeah. And it's, and actually, it's 578 00:40:43,280 --> 00:40:45,320 going to lead. It's going to direct, isn't it? 579 00:40:45,320 --> 00:40:49,520 How, how something plays out. If there's a negative name or 580 00:40:49,520 --> 00:40:53,160 there's a negative title or a negative use of words, it's 581 00:40:53,160 --> 00:40:56,920 going to that's going to channel into the relationship and the 582 00:40:56,920 --> 00:40:58,720 training session. It's going to have a knock on 583 00:40:58,720 --> 00:41:00,480 impact. Exactly. 584 00:41:00,480 --> 00:41:03,280 So I like horse guardian. I like that word. 585 00:41:04,920 --> 00:41:08,320 And then when I moved to Canada it's it's and the whole like 586 00:41:08,760 --> 00:41:17,600 horsemanship world, says leader. But when the marketing says 587 00:41:17,600 --> 00:41:23,800 leader, they usually mean boss, because a real leader has 588 00:41:23,800 --> 00:41:28,760 followers and a leader doesn't have to control the herd. 589 00:41:29,040 --> 00:41:35,720 A leader is the leader and and and the herd wants to follow the 590 00:41:35,720 --> 00:41:37,520 leader. You're right, because even in 591 00:41:37,520 --> 00:41:41,400 families and friendship groups, you will have a natural leader, 592 00:41:41,640 --> 00:41:45,440 not who is ruling the roost or laying down the rules or 593 00:41:45,440 --> 00:41:49,360 dominating everyone, but they just have that infectious energy 594 00:41:49,360 --> 00:41:53,440 and charisma and maybe a bit of wisdom that everyone chooses to 595 00:41:53,440 --> 00:41:55,400 follow. And that's so positive, isn't 596 00:41:55,400 --> 00:41:57,840 it? And that's a like a natural herd 597 00:41:57,840 --> 00:42:01,480 or pack instinct, much better than boss, yeah. 598 00:42:01,720 --> 00:42:04,920 And then, and then there's also something like the horses don't 599 00:42:04,960 --> 00:42:08,080 really have one leader. It's it's like if you look into 600 00:42:08,080 --> 00:42:13,080 the horse behavior that like usually the pregnant mask decide 601 00:42:13,240 --> 00:42:16,200 I'm wandering off because I'm thirsty, I'm going to look for 602 00:42:16,200 --> 00:42:18,240 water. And then everybody said like, 603 00:42:18,400 --> 00:42:22,240 oh, that's a good idea. But for other decisions, other 604 00:42:22,240 --> 00:42:25,360 horses in the world make those decisions. 605 00:42:25,360 --> 00:42:31,680 So it's it's more like, yeah, whoever takes that role in that 606 00:42:31,680 --> 00:42:36,480 moment, it's very environmentally because all the 607 00:42:36,480 --> 00:42:39,760 behavior is triggered by the environment. 608 00:42:40,800 --> 00:42:45,000 Not all, Yeah, all you have internal environment, hormones 609 00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:48,560 and, you know, an external environment. 610 00:42:48,560 --> 00:42:55,880 But if you see it in that way, yeah, like the leadership role 611 00:42:55,880 --> 00:42:59,360 we do. Like I like Guardian because I 612 00:42:59,360 --> 00:43:03,600 don't have a better word and I'm not an English native speaker so 613 00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:09,120 I don't know what the word guardian triggers. 614 00:43:09,560 --> 00:43:14,920 To most people here, Taker seems a little bit distance he should 615 00:43:14,920 --> 00:43:18,400 die for food and I'm off but. Yeah. 616 00:43:19,280 --> 00:43:25,760 For me personally, I, I really want to do everything to to be a 617 00:43:25,760 --> 00:43:30,640 good friends, to protect them if needed and and vice versa. 618 00:43:30,640 --> 00:43:34,080 Sometimes they tell me there's something scared there, let's 619 00:43:34,080 --> 00:43:35,800 get out of there. This is not safe. 620 00:43:35,800 --> 00:43:41,040 And when you listen, you stay safe, so. 621 00:43:41,440 --> 00:43:45,120 That's so true. And Sandra, I've got to weave us 622 00:43:45,120 --> 00:43:48,960 back round to talking about the treats and the positive 623 00:43:48,960 --> 00:43:53,400 reinforcement because this does strike up so many huge debates 624 00:43:53,400 --> 00:43:57,280 in the equestrian industry. I've heard many a row, many a 625 00:43:57,280 --> 00:44:01,320 debate about whether we should be hand feeding our horses and 626 00:44:01,320 --> 00:44:05,680 giving them treats because it makes them bulgy and bitey and 627 00:44:05,680 --> 00:44:09,680 nippy and badly mannered. What are your thoughts on this 628 00:44:09,680 --> 00:44:13,680 and have you ever experienced that where a horse has become a 629 00:44:13,680 --> 00:44:16,840 bit too much and a bit headstrong because of the hand 630 00:44:16,840 --> 00:44:19,960 feeding? Yes, of course, because food is 631 00:44:19,960 --> 00:44:27,360 so motivating and if we reinforce undesired dangerous 632 00:44:27,360 --> 00:44:31,000 behaviours, we get what we reinforce. 633 00:44:31,200 --> 00:44:36,800 So that's one second of all. Sometimes people come to me and 634 00:44:36,800 --> 00:44:39,760 say like, when can I stop using treats? 635 00:44:40,880 --> 00:44:44,800 Think about this. Have you ever gone to a riding 636 00:44:44,800 --> 00:44:49,200 school or a riding instructor and the first thing you asked 637 00:44:49,200 --> 00:44:51,920 was when can I start riding without a whip? 638 00:44:52,800 --> 00:44:54,680 When can I start riding without a bit? 639 00:44:56,320 --> 00:44:59,600 No. When can I can I train my horse 640 00:44:59,600 --> 00:45:02,400 at liberty without a rope or a training state? 641 00:45:03,440 --> 00:45:07,160 Nobody asked that. But when it comes to food, when 642 00:45:07,160 --> 00:45:11,920 can I stop feeding the horse? So that's, that's an interesting 643 00:45:12,000 --> 00:45:16,840 thing to think about. And we have to know that. 644 00:45:18,440 --> 00:45:23,840 So in general, you yeah, I start with what I call table, table 645 00:45:23,840 --> 00:45:26,640 manners for horses, because table manners. 646 00:45:27,080 --> 00:45:30,800 Any cats? And just like we humans, if we 647 00:45:30,800 --> 00:45:33,880 are toddlers and we see a table full of food, we run to the 648 00:45:33,880 --> 00:45:36,880 desserts and we start to eat because we're hungry. 649 00:45:36,880 --> 00:45:42,040 We want to eat the good stuff. We have to learn to take a 650 00:45:42,040 --> 00:45:45,800 plate, to use cutlery, to sit down while we're eating. 651 00:45:46,440 --> 00:45:50,680 All these rules. And that's why I call it table 652 00:45:50,680 --> 00:45:54,480 manners, because it's not natural behavior in the nature. 653 00:45:54,480 --> 00:45:58,560 There's food all around. Horses are lucky and they don't 654 00:45:58,560 --> 00:46:02,240 have to wait. Or there are no no, there are 655 00:46:02,240 --> 00:46:05,920 rules. In general, if they see grass, 656 00:46:05,920 --> 00:46:09,800 they can eat grass in posture. But now we have to teach them. 657 00:46:09,800 --> 00:46:13,200 I have treats in my pockets, but you're not allowed to touch me, 658 00:46:13,400 --> 00:46:17,840 you're not allowed to self-serve and you're not allowed to bite. 659 00:46:17,840 --> 00:46:21,680 So with positive reinforcement, because they are so motivated by 660 00:46:21,680 --> 00:46:26,880 the food, you can simply teach them to use their lips only, not 661 00:46:26,880 --> 00:46:30,680 their teeth. You can teach them not to mug 662 00:46:30,680 --> 00:46:33,400 you or touch you or sniff your pockets. 663 00:46:33,640 --> 00:46:39,360 Because I will reinforce polite behavior and polite behavior is 664 00:46:39,480 --> 00:46:45,120 learned behavior, just like we humans is not polite to run 665 00:46:45,120 --> 00:46:55,120 around in a meeting, but maybe we have the urge to do that if 666 00:46:55,120 --> 00:46:59,480 we hadn't learned a young young new ones that it's not polite. 667 00:46:59,640 --> 00:47:02,560 So that that's that's the second key lesson. 668 00:47:02,920 --> 00:47:07,800 Your key to success that I train is you have to be learn your 669 00:47:07,880 --> 00:47:10,760 your horse to be patients. You're not getting the treat 670 00:47:10,760 --> 00:47:12,440 right away. You're getting the treat. 671 00:47:12,560 --> 00:47:16,440 There are rules. So that's that's the foundation 672 00:47:16,440 --> 00:47:18,440 you you teach your horse the rules. 673 00:47:18,440 --> 00:47:23,800 Mugging is not allowed. I want you to be do the food 674 00:47:23,840 --> 00:47:27,280 etiquette, table manners, and I want you to be patient. 675 00:47:27,280 --> 00:47:35,560 So that's where you start. And some horses are the food 676 00:47:35,560 --> 00:47:40,040 triggers too much, so you start with lower value, maybe even 677 00:47:40,040 --> 00:47:45,120 just normal hay. They also chew longer on hay and 678 00:47:45,120 --> 00:47:49,840 the chewing relaxes them. So there's all kinds of things 679 00:47:49,840 --> 00:47:54,920 that you can use and maybe some horses are just not ready for 680 00:47:55,960 --> 00:48:01,040 treats, but yeah. And Sandra, I've got to ask, 681 00:48:01,040 --> 00:48:03,840 you've got a real passion for working with rescue horses. 682 00:48:04,120 --> 00:48:10,240 How do you transform the broken inverted commas and traumatised 683 00:48:10,240 --> 00:48:17,440 rescue horse and reverse those terrible, terrible things that 684 00:48:17,560 --> 00:48:22,040 that humans have done to that horse and actually rehabilitate 685 00:48:22,040 --> 00:48:26,600 them into a whole healthy, happy horse once again? 686 00:48:27,520 --> 00:48:30,480 Well, first of all, you don't have to do everything with 687 00:48:30,480 --> 00:48:35,480 positive reinforcement because not every everybody has gone the 688 00:48:35,960 --> 00:48:40,240 same path as I have. So, but even if you don't have a 689 00:48:40,240 --> 00:48:45,760 little bit of positive reinforcement, it, it, it can 690 00:48:46,080 --> 00:48:51,280 change and heal the horse. So even if you don't just like 691 00:48:51,280 --> 00:48:54,040 trick, trick training or a little bit of target training, 692 00:48:54,080 --> 00:48:58,040 that already can make a difference. 693 00:48:58,040 --> 00:49:02,120 Because what what was so amazing when I worked with the rescue 694 00:49:02,120 --> 00:49:07,720 horses at that species that that, that I noticed that they 695 00:49:07,720 --> 00:49:12,200 didn't only trust me, but they started to trust other people as 696 00:49:12,200 --> 00:49:14,520 well. And that was something I did not 697 00:49:14,520 --> 00:49:16,840 expect. Because in the positive 698 00:49:16,840 --> 00:49:23,200 reinforcement, you amount choices and you give them back 699 00:49:23,200 --> 00:49:28,440 control over their own body. Because how many times, I would 700 00:49:28,440 --> 00:49:33,760 say almost always is it us that says, I want to clean your feet, 701 00:49:33,760 --> 00:49:37,320 give me your leg now. This is how long I will do it 702 00:49:37,320 --> 00:49:40,520 now instead of saying like, Are you ready? 703 00:49:40,880 --> 00:49:42,960 No, are you not ready? No worries. 704 00:49:43,600 --> 00:49:47,960 I will. I will ask again in like because 705 00:49:47,960 --> 00:49:51,920 we determine everything. We determine what, what, what 706 00:49:51,920 --> 00:49:57,160 they eat, how much, the time, we determine if they are in a stall 707 00:49:57,160 --> 00:50:01,840 or pasture, we determine and we choose their friends, we choose 708 00:50:01,840 --> 00:50:05,320 their mates, we choose if they're made, we make, we 709 00:50:05,320 --> 00:50:11,080 control basically everything. And if in training it's the 710 00:50:11,080 --> 00:50:13,440 same. But if we have like a part of 711 00:50:13,440 --> 00:50:19,600 training where we can say you can choose, it really empowers 712 00:50:19,600 --> 00:50:21,520 them. And if they are shut down 713 00:50:21,520 --> 00:50:24,280 because they have the feeling, learn helplessness. 714 00:50:24,280 --> 00:50:28,880 And that means that they think no matter what I do, I have no 715 00:50:28,880 --> 00:50:31,840 control. I've worked with one horse. 716 00:50:33,280 --> 00:50:36,680 He was so extraordinary. He was so shut down. 717 00:50:37,480 --> 00:50:42,760 So he was the perfect riding horse because people mistakenly 718 00:50:43,120 --> 00:50:47,560 see that for obedience. But if you see that the horse 719 00:50:47,560 --> 00:50:53,600 has no joy at all, he just does whatever, then to me, like all 720 00:50:53,600 --> 00:50:58,200 the funnest go on. But I had to train him to touch 721 00:50:58,200 --> 00:51:01,800 a target and to follow a target so I could bring him to the past 722 00:51:01,800 --> 00:51:05,440 chair. And every time I trained him, I 723 00:51:05,440 --> 00:51:09,560 trained him once a week. I had the feeling that I had to 724 00:51:09,560 --> 00:51:13,000 start all over, that he had forgotten. 725 00:51:13,600 --> 00:51:16,680 Normally that's not the case. They were like, I don't know 726 00:51:16,680 --> 00:51:18,200 what to do. Oh, I see the target. 727 00:51:18,280 --> 00:51:22,160 Oh, I remember. But this horse was just like, he 728 00:51:22,240 --> 00:51:25,000 was so afraid and so shut down. That was. 729 00:51:25,320 --> 00:51:28,000 Yeah, besides the mule that I worked with. 730 00:51:28,360 --> 00:51:32,200 Yeah, the most of the year horse that I worked with. 731 00:51:32,400 --> 00:51:39,000 But even him, he came around, but it took, it took time. 732 00:51:40,200 --> 00:51:43,440 Thinking about that, Sandra one, do you think we need to be more 733 00:51:43,440 --> 00:51:47,320 patient with our horses who have had really difficult backgrounds 734 00:51:47,320 --> 00:51:52,760 in terms of even horses that are sold, some have sold from pillar 735 00:51:52,760 --> 00:51:56,960 to post, even if they've not come from a rescue background. 736 00:51:57,240 --> 00:51:59,880 They've had a traumatic ordeal being passed from pillar to 737 00:51:59,880 --> 00:52:03,200 post, not staying with one family for for long at all and 738 00:52:03,200 --> 00:52:05,440 then moving into a different home with different training 739 00:52:05,440 --> 00:52:07,840 techniques and put into different environments. 740 00:52:08,320 --> 00:52:12,280 Do we need to be more patient with the horses that come into 741 00:52:12,280 --> 00:52:14,760 our livery yards and our riding schools? 742 00:52:14,760 --> 00:52:18,800 That's the first question. And also, how does it feel for 743 00:52:18,800 --> 00:52:23,360 you with horses that actually you feel like you can't fix and 744 00:52:23,360 --> 00:52:27,600 you're left feeling like actually, can I reverse the 745 00:52:27,600 --> 00:52:31,200 harsh techniques that have been used against this horse? 746 00:52:34,000 --> 00:52:38,160 Well, what about the? Patience, it was like we can't 747 00:52:38,160 --> 00:52:43,080 force and I don't like to force more patience. 748 00:52:43,920 --> 00:52:48,680 I would maybe we would like change the question, what is 749 00:52:48,680 --> 00:52:51,880 your value? What is your purpose for the 750 00:52:51,880 --> 00:52:53,360 horse? How do you want your 751 00:52:53,360 --> 00:52:57,600 relationship to be? Because there are people that 752 00:52:57,720 --> 00:53:02,280 and again, that that has to do with status because owning a 753 00:53:02,280 --> 00:53:06,040 horse or a shoe status, I like to me, it's so normal. 754 00:53:06,040 --> 00:53:12,840 I worked really, really hard to to buy my first pony and all 755 00:53:12,840 --> 00:53:16,160 that. And to me, it's such a way of 756 00:53:16,160 --> 00:53:19,440 life. But sometimes, like people say 757 00:53:19,440 --> 00:53:22,400 to me, oh, you have a horse. You must be very rich. 758 00:53:23,280 --> 00:53:24,800 Oh, we all love what you. Tell us. 759 00:53:24,800 --> 00:53:26,600 Oh, we've all heard that one, haven't we? 760 00:53:26,600 --> 00:53:33,560 We've all heard that one, no? So they're just other thing that 761 00:53:33,560 --> 00:53:39,360 like people who who compete with horses, what is their value? 762 00:53:39,360 --> 00:53:44,560 Like what is more important, the horse or the winning? 763 00:53:47,760 --> 00:53:52,760 What is your purpose? If you have horses that that are 764 00:53:52,760 --> 00:53:59,760 your employees because there are no riding horses, where's the 765 00:53:59,760 --> 00:54:02,040 tipping point that you choose for the horse? 766 00:54:02,040 --> 00:54:06,240 Or like, I think the patience has to do everything with your 767 00:54:06,240 --> 00:54:11,160 value. Like to me, my horses, well, 768 00:54:11,160 --> 00:54:15,200 they are my employees because I make training videos with them. 769 00:54:16,120 --> 00:54:20,200 But they are kind of lucky because if they don't want to do 770 00:54:20,200 --> 00:54:24,400 stuff, I'm going to find a way that they want to change their 771 00:54:24,400 --> 00:54:27,480 minds on their own. And sometimes I have to say 772 00:54:27,480 --> 00:54:29,880 like, yeah, not today, not today. 773 00:54:30,640 --> 00:54:34,840 So patience is, is, is has a lot to do with what do you really 774 00:54:34,840 --> 00:54:36,520 want? Do you do you want a 775 00:54:36,520 --> 00:54:42,280 relationship or do you want to be getting the results now? 776 00:54:42,960 --> 00:54:47,960 Because when I I always say like put the hour of relationship 777 00:54:48,320 --> 00:54:52,320 before the hour of results, because once you have that 778 00:54:52,320 --> 00:54:56,640 really good relationship, it's amazing what forces will do for 779 00:54:56,640 --> 00:55:00,680 you. But if you just want the results 780 00:55:00,680 --> 00:55:03,640 and you're trying to get the results without a relationship, 781 00:55:05,760 --> 00:55:14,440 yeah, you might have to rely on on aversives to make him do it. 782 00:55:15,440 --> 00:55:22,080 That's so interesting because if we all saw our horses perhaps as 783 00:55:22,080 --> 00:55:29,040 pets and as friends and as family members, before riding, 784 00:55:29,080 --> 00:55:34,000 before sports animal, before competitor, then maybe they 785 00:55:34,000 --> 00:55:36,880 would be passed from pillar to post less. 786 00:55:36,880 --> 00:55:39,960 Maybe they would stay within families more. 787 00:55:40,240 --> 00:55:42,200 It wouldn't be a case of being outgrown. 788 00:55:42,200 --> 00:55:47,240 It wouldn't be a case of needing a horse for a higher level of 789 00:55:47,240 --> 00:55:51,520 competition. You would add to your herd 790 00:55:51,520 --> 00:55:56,240 rather than selling on your herd members because they are first 791 00:55:56,240 --> 00:55:59,080 and foremost members of the family or members of the herds 792 00:55:59,080 --> 00:56:02,920 that are staying with you. It changes everything doesn't 793 00:56:02,920 --> 00:56:04,520 it? Just by reevaluating the 794 00:56:04,520 --> 00:56:08,360 relationship. Yeah. 795 00:56:08,360 --> 00:56:15,040 But we have to be aware that our behavior is as much influenced 796 00:56:15,040 --> 00:56:18,720 by our environment as that is for the horse. 797 00:56:19,040 --> 00:56:24,200 If if we surround ourselves with people that all say we all have 798 00:56:24,200 --> 00:56:28,640 to do things we don't like. And for us humans and especially 799 00:56:28,640 --> 00:56:34,880 for women, it's very dangerous to be kicked out of our herd 800 00:56:35,120 --> 00:56:40,000 about out of our community. So if we are the odd ones that 801 00:56:40,000 --> 00:56:44,600 that don't want to weep on horses and that wants to build a 802 00:56:44,600 --> 00:56:49,540 relationship is necessary to to have a community with like 803 00:56:49,540 --> 00:56:53,920 minded wish people that you feel safe around that nobody 804 00:56:53,920 --> 00:56:58,000 questions why you have treating your pocket that nobody 805 00:56:58,000 --> 00:57:02,560 questions that my Morse says we have done writing. 806 00:57:02,560 --> 00:57:05,160 So I dismount and that was it for today. 807 00:57:06,960 --> 00:57:10,480 If that's the norm, if that's normal, it makes it so much 808 00:57:10,480 --> 00:57:13,320 easier for people to follow their hearts. 809 00:57:13,560 --> 00:57:17,640 I've written A blog once where I I described that because it's 810 00:57:17,680 --> 00:57:22,360 it's the the human behavior is so fascinating to me because the 811 00:57:22,920 --> 00:57:26,920 blog name is it all starts with a helmet and a whip. 812 00:57:27,400 --> 00:57:32,800 My parents bought a helmet and a whip because that was advised by 813 00:57:32,800 --> 00:57:35,800 the writing school. OK, a helmet to keep your child 814 00:57:35,800 --> 00:57:40,120 safe, but a whip? A whip is designed to inflict 815 00:57:40,200 --> 00:57:44,640 pain without inflicting injury. When I heard that it was like 816 00:57:46,040 --> 00:57:50,680 that's why you usually don't get open wounds from years in a way 817 00:57:51,240 --> 00:57:57,040 but it still hurts. That is that is what we're all 818 00:57:57,040 --> 00:57:59,600 equipped with as we start our journey with horses or it 819 00:57:59,600 --> 00:58:02,240 certainly has been. Hopefully, hopefully times are 820 00:58:02,240 --> 00:58:04,560 changing. But Sandra, when you look ahead 821 00:58:04,560 --> 00:58:07,160 to the next few years, what do you hope for horses? 822 00:58:07,400 --> 00:58:09,800 You know, you've talked about that, that many children start 823 00:58:10,040 --> 00:58:11,600 being passed at a helmet in a whip. 824 00:58:11,600 --> 00:58:14,720 What do you hope for the next generation and and for horses 825 00:58:14,720 --> 00:58:20,200 lives as we look ahead? Well, I've seen in especially in 826 00:58:20,200 --> 00:58:22,880 the UK and in the Netherlands, like the clicker training for 827 00:58:22,880 --> 00:58:27,680 horses is everybody almost seems to have heard of it. 828 00:58:27,680 --> 00:58:30,880 Of course, that's my bubble as well, my environment. 829 00:58:31,120 --> 00:58:36,680 But like in and I think it becomes more and more 830 00:58:37,640 --> 00:58:41,160 mainstream. That's what I hope and I know a 831 00:58:41,160 --> 00:58:46,560 lot of people and this podcast contribute so much to awareness 832 00:58:46,800 --> 00:58:51,360 and to you don't lose control is positive enforcement. 833 00:58:51,640 --> 00:58:58,360 You have the relationship and I would say you, you don't have 834 00:58:58,360 --> 00:59:02,880 maybe more control, but since you have the horse on your side, 835 00:59:03,360 --> 00:59:05,880 you create better and safer horses. 836 00:59:07,960 --> 00:59:12,400 Because I see so many accidents happen where the route of the 837 00:59:12,400 --> 00:59:17,800 course is, is is miscommunication and and and 838 00:59:17,800 --> 00:59:21,240 misunderstanding. Like if a horse is very fearful 839 00:59:21,240 --> 00:59:25,760 and we use our legs and whips to get that horse past that scary 840 00:59:25,760 --> 00:59:30,800 thing. Well, we immediately have may 841 00:59:30,800 --> 00:59:35,040 help make that association scary thing, whipping scary thing, 842 00:59:35,040 --> 00:59:41,680 pain instead of scary thing. Oh, I go to my owner or guardian 843 00:59:41,680 --> 00:59:43,720 or friend and saying what do you think? 844 00:59:44,720 --> 00:59:48,160 I'm scared? Maybe if I get the time to check 845 00:59:48,160 --> 00:59:52,760 it out I'm not scared. But because they tell us I'm 846 00:59:52,760 --> 00:59:55,640 scared, can I have a little bit of time? 847 00:59:56,800 --> 01:00:00,640 They won't get a threshold. They don't get into flights 848 01:00:00,880 --> 01:00:07,480 because flight fight or freeze and the flight and fight state 849 01:00:07,520 --> 01:00:10,040 of a horse. That's what causes the accident 850 01:00:10,040 --> 01:00:12,520 so many times. Oh, and since I do positive 851 01:00:12,520 --> 01:00:16,120 reinforcement. No horse has ever stepped on my 852 01:00:16,120 --> 01:00:20,000 toes again. This is also something like that 853 01:00:20,000 --> 01:00:22,880 happened all the time. Like wear boots because horses 854 01:00:22,880 --> 01:00:28,480 step on their toes into it when you stop doing traditional 855 01:00:28,720 --> 01:00:32,080 training. That never happened to me. 856 01:00:33,640 --> 01:00:36,680 Wow, Sandra, I've talked to you all day. 857 01:00:36,880 --> 01:00:40,240 We've learned not only lessons in horsemanship and training, 858 01:00:40,440 --> 01:00:43,440 but life lessons as well. Thank you so much for coming on 859 01:00:43,440 --> 01:00:46,560 Curious Equestrian. You're going to stick around for 860 01:00:46,560 --> 01:00:50,320 some members only questions and continue the conversation in our 861 01:00:50,320 --> 01:00:53,920 membership only zone. But before then, tell the 862 01:00:53,920 --> 01:00:56,760 listeners where they can find you for your blog and your 863 01:00:56,760 --> 01:01:02,720 training and for any advice. Well, for your listeners, I will 864 01:01:02,720 --> 01:01:06,960 have something special because I do positive reinforcement and 865 01:01:06,960 --> 01:01:09,920 every relationship begins with peeping. 866 01:01:10,240 --> 01:01:13,840 So you gave me the opportunity to be here and I want to give 867 01:01:14,120 --> 01:01:16,280 something back and something to your listeners. 868 01:01:16,280 --> 01:01:20,360 So I will share that. Where can you find me? 869 01:01:20,360 --> 01:01:23,200 You can find me at clickertraining.ca. 870 01:01:23,560 --> 01:01:27,800 That's my website. I am, or you can find me if you 871 01:01:27,800 --> 01:01:34,760 Google Hippo Logic on on. I'm hypologic on Facebook and 872 01:01:34,760 --> 01:01:39,440 I'm hypologic on YouTube. And can we ask, can we ask what 873 01:01:39,440 --> 01:01:41,120 you might be sharing with our listeners? 874 01:01:44,120 --> 01:01:48,280 Well, if you, if you want to know, because positive 875 01:01:48,280 --> 01:01:55,240 reinforcement training is a skill and we all know what it's 876 01:01:55,240 --> 01:01:56,960 like. If you learn something new, you 877 01:01:56,960 --> 01:02:00,400 get stuck and then maybe you get unstuck. 878 01:02:00,560 --> 01:02:06,120 But what I, what I would like to offer you and, and the listeners 879 01:02:07,120 --> 01:02:09,720 is a free clicker training assessment. 880 01:02:09,720 --> 01:02:14,240 And that's a free thing. It's a, it's a one-on-one Zoom 881 01:02:14,240 --> 01:02:20,880 call and we go over the main things that the skills that you 882 01:02:20,880 --> 01:02:24,840 need to develop and you can assess yourself. 883 01:02:24,840 --> 01:02:27,520 I'm not assessing you. You assess yourself because it's 884 01:02:27,520 --> 01:02:30,280 a self-assessment that guides you through the process. 885 01:02:30,920 --> 01:02:37,920 And at the end of the assessment you know exactly what the weak 886 01:02:38,240 --> 01:02:40,920 spots in your training are and the whole thing your training 887 01:02:40,920 --> 01:02:44,600 away you need to focus on. Thank you SO. 888 01:02:44,760 --> 01:02:49,280 Much do want to know how I can help you. 889 01:02:49,280 --> 01:02:53,240 You can always ask, but yeah. And it's very fun to do, yeah. 890 01:02:53,720 --> 01:02:57,240 Thank you so much for your generosity, for your kindness. 891 01:02:57,320 --> 01:03:00,040 For those listeners who want to make the most of that 892 01:03:00,040 --> 01:03:03,320 opportunity, please do reach out to Sandra in all the ways that 893 01:03:03,320 --> 01:03:05,920 she just listed, the ways to find out on her social media and 894 01:03:05,920 --> 01:03:08,360 her website. Thank you so much, Sandra, for 895 01:03:08,360 --> 01:03:09,480 that. Stick around because you're 896 01:03:09,480 --> 01:03:11,480 going to be answering some membership questions. 897 01:03:11,720 --> 01:03:13,960 But for now, thank you so much for coming on Curious 898 01:03:13,960 --> 01:03:17,040 Equestrian. Thank you so much for listening 899 01:03:17,040 --> 01:03:19,440 to and watching Curious Equestrian. 900 01:03:19,680 --> 01:03:22,960 If you enjoyed this episode, please don't forget to subscribe 901 01:03:22,960 --> 01:03:26,560 to us on YouTube so that you don't miss an episode and all 902 01:03:26,560 --> 01:03:29,760 that's coming your way. Or you can subscribe to us on 903 01:03:29,760 --> 01:03:32,280 whatever podcast platform you listen. 904 01:03:32,600 --> 01:03:36,400 If you could leave us a review on Apple Podcasts, that would 905 01:03:36,400 --> 01:03:40,200 really help us to find lots more lovely listeners. 906 01:03:40,560 --> 01:03:45,000 And you can also follow us on Instagram at Curious Equestrian 907 01:03:45,000 --> 01:03:47,200 Podcast. We'll see you next time.