1 00:00:00,920 --> 00:00:02,600 Sorry, our three sets of efflerage. 2 00:00:03,080 --> 00:00:05,840 We're now going to move on to our three sets of compression. 3 00:00:05,840 --> 00:00:10,960 So we slide our hands right to the far end, the trapezius 4 00:00:10,960 --> 00:00:18,160 muscle pressure in, move the skin, relax and slide back. 5 00:00:19,480 --> 00:00:21,720 Hello and welcome to Curious Question. 6 00:00:21,760 --> 00:00:25,560 I'm your host Anna Louise, and if you enjoy our podcast, please 7 00:00:25,560 --> 00:00:29,400 click that subscribe button so we can keep bringing you plenty 8 00:00:29,440 --> 00:00:33,080 of brilliant guests. Today it's Sue Palmer AKA The 9 00:00:33,080 --> 00:00:37,320 Horse Physio, an award-winning chartered physiotherapist 10 00:00:37,560 --> 00:00:41,560 promoting kind treatment of horses through education with 11 00:00:41,560 --> 00:00:45,680 empathy. It's Sue's mission that by 2035 12 00:00:45,960 --> 00:00:50,280 every equestrian will understand that there are links between 13 00:00:50,280 --> 00:00:55,640 pain, performance and behaviour. Let's find out how we can use 14 00:00:55,720 --> 00:01:00,160 equine massage as a part of our toolbox to improve our horses 15 00:01:00,160 --> 00:01:04,480 lives. Sue, welcome to Curious 16 00:01:04,480 --> 00:01:07,240 Equestrian. Hi Anna, thanks so much for 17 00:01:07,240 --> 00:01:09,360 having me. So many of your contemporaries 18 00:01:09,360 --> 00:01:12,360 and your colleagues and your friends even have appeared on 19 00:01:12,360 --> 00:01:15,760 the podcast so far and listeners might know Sue Dyson. 20 00:01:15,760 --> 00:01:18,880 About a year ago we did a special all about sort of pain 21 00:01:18,880 --> 00:01:22,320 and identifying lameness, which went down really well with our 22 00:01:22,320 --> 00:01:24,040 community. And and of course, you wrote a 23 00:01:24,040 --> 00:01:27,120 book with Sue. Yeah, harmonious horsemanship. 24 00:01:27,160 --> 00:01:28,280 Yeah. Do you want the story of how we 25 00:01:28,280 --> 00:01:30,320 got there? Yeah, we'd love to know how you 26 00:01:30,320 --> 00:01:34,960 too connected. So I've been interested in the 27 00:01:34,960 --> 00:01:39,080 links between pain and behaviour and horses for a very long time. 28 00:01:39,080 --> 00:01:42,400 I grew up with Horses Painting Club and the riding Club. 29 00:01:42,480 --> 00:01:45,920 I then went on and qualified as an intelligent horsemanship 30 00:01:45,920 --> 00:01:48,800 recommended trainer. So I qualified with Montalvets 31 00:01:48,800 --> 00:01:56,160 and and with Kelly Marks and I was out seeing lots of horses 32 00:01:56,160 --> 00:02:01,520 and trying to understand where the behaviours were coming from. 33 00:02:01,720 --> 00:02:05,320 Ultimately this led to a book called Understanding Horse 34 00:02:05,320 --> 00:02:07,680 Performance, Brain Pain or training, which is called Brain 35 00:02:07,680 --> 00:02:10,639 Pain or training. I went to a horses inside out 36 00:02:10,639 --> 00:02:13,400 conference. I saw Sue Dyson there and was 37 00:02:13,680 --> 00:02:16,800 really excited to see that she was presenting A lecture that 38 00:02:16,800 --> 00:02:18,840 was called Brain or Pain. I was the same year, it was 39 00:02:18,840 --> 00:02:22,040 2016, the same year that I was actually there promoting my book 40 00:02:22,040 --> 00:02:23,600 Brain Pain. The train was like, wow, this is 41 00:02:23,600 --> 00:02:26,720 just so cool. Obviously I've known her, Sue, 42 00:02:26,720 --> 00:02:30,000 for years and I'd actually been to shadow her when she was 43 00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:31,280 working at the Animal Health Trust. 44 00:02:31,800 --> 00:02:35,440 And so I gave her a copy of my book and we kept in touch after 45 00:02:35,440 --> 00:02:39,640 that. And in 2018, the work on the 46 00:02:39,640 --> 00:02:42,560 ridden horse painted the first study on the ridden horse. 47 00:02:42,640 --> 00:02:46,800 And Sue said that she felt that with my position as an author, 48 00:02:46,800 --> 00:02:48,560 because I've got my book, Horse Massage. 49 00:02:48,560 --> 00:02:51,280 The horse owners had come out in 2012 and then Brain pain and 50 00:02:51,280 --> 00:02:56,400 training and my social media following and my work because I 51 00:02:56,400 --> 00:02:59,520 work day-to-day, I'm I'm out there every day working with 52 00:02:59,520 --> 00:03:03,880 horses and their owners. But the best thing, she felt I 53 00:03:03,880 --> 00:03:07,280 was best placed to help get the information across to the 54 00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:09,600 general public. We decided that we would write a 55 00:03:09,600 --> 00:03:11,520 book. So that was 2018. 56 00:03:11,560 --> 00:03:14,360 And then life got a little bit in the way. 57 00:03:14,560 --> 00:03:17,160 And there was I got divorced and it was COVID. 58 00:03:17,160 --> 00:03:20,040 And then we really sadly, we lost my dad unexpectedly. 59 00:03:20,440 --> 00:03:22,880 And so sorry. Thank you. 60 00:03:24,240 --> 00:03:26,400 And one of the last conversations that I had with my 61 00:03:26,400 --> 00:03:30,720 dad was that I said that I felt that it was time to 2021. 62 00:03:30,720 --> 00:03:33,680 I felt it was time to get going with the book again, the book 63 00:03:33,680 --> 00:03:36,640 that I was going to write with Sue Dyson and he was and his 64 00:03:36,640 --> 00:03:38,440 women's sports always at least my work. 65 00:03:38,440 --> 00:03:40,920 And my mom continues doing this book within her work. 66 00:03:42,160 --> 00:03:43,960 Anyway, two weeks, dad died a week later. 67 00:03:43,960 --> 00:03:47,800 And two weeks after he died, I got a call from the publishers, 68 00:03:48,080 --> 00:03:50,720 from my publishers saying, did I have another book in the 69 00:03:50,720 --> 00:03:54,120 pipeline? And I just, well, it's just if 70 00:03:54,120 --> 00:03:56,520 you believe in these things, you believe in these things, that's. 71 00:03:56,960 --> 00:03:59,840 Given me shivers. So that's really sent shivers 72 00:03:59,840 --> 00:04:03,240 down my spine in a, in a wonderful way, you know, doesn't 73 00:04:03,240 --> 00:04:06,640 that feel soundipitous and, and, and actually must have been a, a 74 00:04:06,640 --> 00:04:08,280 great comfort to you at the time. 75 00:04:08,920 --> 00:04:11,640 So much, so much. I am so lucky in my life. 76 00:04:12,640 --> 00:04:15,280 So yes, I got in touch with Sue and that that was it. 77 00:04:15,280 --> 00:04:17,200 We started creating Harmony Source for sure. 78 00:04:17,399 --> 00:04:20,040 Turns out that for for the people reading the book, it's 79 00:04:20,040 --> 00:04:22,240 much better that we had those few years in the way because 80 00:04:22,240 --> 00:04:24,560 actually there's much more research has come out along the 81 00:04:24,560 --> 00:04:26,640 way. So we were able to share a lot 82 00:04:26,640 --> 00:04:28,480 more than we would have done if we'd published the books. 83 00:04:28,480 --> 00:04:29,880 That's great. Wow. 84 00:04:30,760 --> 00:04:34,080 And you are ramping up at this time of year, Sue, because 85 00:04:34,280 --> 00:04:38,840 spring, all of us who adore our horses and want to get back into 86 00:04:38,920 --> 00:04:43,600 training and playing and working alongside our horses are 87 00:04:43,600 --> 00:04:46,600 thinking about their muscle, their fitness, their strength, 88 00:04:46,600 --> 00:04:50,200 their suppleness. And of course we've had and 89 00:04:50,200 --> 00:04:53,320 we're currently still just in that tail end of the very long, 90 00:04:53,320 --> 00:04:55,640 dreary winter, some terrible weathers. 91 00:04:56,000 --> 00:04:58,880 Do you find it common that this time of year suddenly a lot of 92 00:04:58,880 --> 00:05:01,680 horse owners and riders kind of sit up and think we need to 93 00:05:01,680 --> 00:05:04,280 regain some of that lost muscle and strength? 94 00:05:05,360 --> 00:05:09,120 I guess that for a lot of people that is the case. 95 00:05:09,120 --> 00:05:13,400 And there's plenty of people that back off a bit over winter 96 00:05:13,400 --> 00:05:16,200 because the weather and that snow that we had a couple of 97 00:05:16,200 --> 00:05:19,000 weeks ago, that was really not conducive to owning a horse. 98 00:05:19,360 --> 00:05:22,720 And I've found so many horses that have been saw after that 99 00:05:22,720 --> 00:05:26,960 that have slipped or slid or they don't notice slow down or 100 00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:29,480 they don't seem to notice, slow down when they're out in the 101 00:05:29,520 --> 00:05:31,880 room. I'm very lucky that with, with 102 00:05:32,080 --> 00:05:38,440 my clients, a lot of them. So my, my philosophy is 103 00:05:38,440 --> 00:05:42,440 preventative and proactive and working with performance. 104 00:05:42,440 --> 00:05:46,880 So I think, yeah, my philosophy is very much in keeping an eye 105 00:05:46,880 --> 00:05:49,760 on things all the time. So I encourage my owners and my 106 00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:54,280 clients and my followers to do daily or weekly checks with 107 00:05:54,280 --> 00:05:55,720 their horses. And I can share a couple of 108 00:05:55,720 --> 00:05:57,400 those with you if you're interested. 109 00:05:57,400 --> 00:06:02,440 It's kind of an awareness. It's about listening to your 110 00:06:02,440 --> 00:06:03,760 horse continue. And that's what harmony is 111 00:06:03,760 --> 00:06:05,760 horsemanship is about. It's what brain kind of training 112 00:06:05,760 --> 00:06:06,920 is about. It's about listening to your 113 00:06:06,920 --> 00:06:13,320 horse on an ongoing basis, right, rather than just because 114 00:06:13,320 --> 00:06:16,320 you've got something coming up. And it's about changing our 115 00:06:16,320 --> 00:06:18,920 mindset, isn't it? Not looking at schedules, like 116 00:06:18,920 --> 00:06:21,880 you say, not thinking spring is the time of year for this and 117 00:06:22,000 --> 00:06:24,960 summer is when we do that and competitions are here or 118 00:06:24,960 --> 00:06:28,400 trainings here and actually using those techniques and those 119 00:06:28,400 --> 00:06:31,600 exercises throughout the year and throughout the seasons. 120 00:06:31,880 --> 00:06:35,720 There is so much to think about with the care of our horses, 121 00:06:35,720 --> 00:06:38,320 whether it be diet and nutrition, exercise, weight and 122 00:06:38,320 --> 00:06:42,440 fitness. But Sue, how can we bring a bit 123 00:06:42,440 --> 00:06:47,520 of physio and massage into our own tool boxes when we're not 124 00:06:47,520 --> 00:06:51,160 professionals like yourselves? Well, that made me think about 125 00:06:51,160 --> 00:06:53,080 physio and massage for ourselves, not just for our 126 00:06:53,080 --> 00:06:55,240 horses. And of course that is hugely 127 00:06:55,240 --> 00:06:57,560 important because I am a human physician. 128 00:06:57,560 --> 00:07:02,520 I do treat humans and horses and my work is about listening 129 00:07:02,520 --> 00:07:07,400 carefully and learning all the time and being curious about 130 00:07:07,400 --> 00:07:10,840 what's going on, and that is about our own bodies as well as 131 00:07:10,880 --> 00:07:13,280 our horses. How can we bring? 132 00:07:13,720 --> 00:07:18,240 So if I just share. With you, 3 simple exercises 133 00:07:18,240 --> 00:07:21,920 that you can do as a daily check and there's something that you 134 00:07:21,920 --> 00:07:24,200 might be doing already. So most of us are grooming our 135 00:07:24,200 --> 00:07:25,920 horses. But grooming your horse, one of 136 00:07:25,920 --> 00:07:28,800 the most common reasons that I'll have a new client come is 137 00:07:28,800 --> 00:07:31,000 that they will notice that the horse is flinched when they're 138 00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:32,560 grooming, especially when they're brushing his back. 139 00:07:32,560 --> 00:07:35,760 So notice what your horse's reactions are when you're 140 00:07:35,760 --> 00:07:37,720 grooming him. Is anything changing? 141 00:07:38,880 --> 00:07:41,440 Beta stretches, Carrot stretches. 142 00:07:41,800 --> 00:07:45,200 Can your horse bend as far in One Direction as he can in the 143 00:07:45,200 --> 00:07:46,600 other? So carrot stretches are a great 144 00:07:46,600 --> 00:07:50,160 exercise as an assessment tool. So can he bend both ways, but 145 00:07:50,160 --> 00:07:54,200 also as a preventative or a treatment tool to ensure that he 146 00:07:54,200 --> 00:07:58,920 can bend equally both ways? And then moving your horse on a 147 00:07:58,920 --> 00:08:01,920 tight turn around you in both directions is a really good 148 00:08:02,040 --> 00:08:05,080 health check. So just asking him to step his 149 00:08:05,080 --> 00:08:08,600 hind legs under and see if his front legs step over. 150 00:08:08,760 --> 00:08:11,480 And can he turn equally in both directions? 151 00:08:11,480 --> 00:08:14,920 So just the left hind step under just as much as the right hind 152 00:08:14,920 --> 00:08:17,320 steps under. So that's some really three 153 00:08:17,320 --> 00:08:19,680 really simple exercises that you can do to keep an eye on the 154 00:08:19,680 --> 00:08:24,360 horse, grooming him and noticing his reactions, doing the carrot 155 00:08:24,360 --> 00:08:27,880 stretches, can he bend with both ways and then doing a tight turn 156 00:08:27,880 --> 00:08:30,080 kind of step under equally in both directions. 157 00:08:30,640 --> 00:08:33,240 And then in terms of exercises that we can do the help and 158 00:08:33,240 --> 00:08:36,120 again, the carrot stretches, as I said, they help to ensure the 159 00:08:36,280 --> 00:08:40,559 hand bend equally both ways in hand work is something that I 160 00:08:40,559 --> 00:08:43,880 think is massively underutilized. 161 00:08:44,159 --> 00:08:47,360 And that might be in hand work in terms of developing 162 00:08:47,360 --> 00:08:49,960 communication or developing flexibility. 163 00:08:49,960 --> 00:08:54,560 So it might be some bending work, some natural work, or it 164 00:08:54,560 --> 00:08:57,840 might be in hand work as in warming the horse up before you 165 00:08:57,840 --> 00:09:00,320 get on him. So we think that we just get on 166 00:09:00,320 --> 00:09:03,480 our horse and then we do the warming up when we get on the 167 00:09:03,480 --> 00:09:05,200 horse. And I always say that that's a 168 00:09:05,200 --> 00:09:09,480 bit like putting a backpack on before I go and make a cup of 169 00:09:09,480 --> 00:09:12,080 tea in the morning. So it's just a little bit of 170 00:09:12,080 --> 00:09:14,920 warming up before we get on the horse so and we can warm 171 00:09:14,920 --> 00:09:17,240 ourselves up. So whether you've got a lane 172 00:09:17,240 --> 00:09:19,520 that you can walk on or whether it's just in the arena walk and 173 00:09:19,520 --> 00:09:21,840 trot your horse in hand, you'll be warmed up. 174 00:09:21,840 --> 00:09:24,000 It means that you get more out of the session. 175 00:09:24,560 --> 00:09:28,320 And then the other thing I'm going to say obviously, but it's 176 00:09:28,320 --> 00:09:30,960 only obviously if you know me, I'm a huge fan of massage. 177 00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:35,160 I've been interested in massage for as long as I can remember. 178 00:09:35,160 --> 00:09:40,760 I qualified as a human massage therapist in my early 20s and 179 00:09:40,760 --> 00:09:43,800 I've actually got a free mini massage master class. 180 00:09:43,800 --> 00:09:47,160 Go onto my Facebook page and you'll find a link in my in my 181 00:09:47,160 --> 00:09:50,640 bio, my bio and on the Facebook page. 182 00:09:51,040 --> 00:09:53,680 But yeah, massage, massage, grooming, just getting your 183 00:09:53,680 --> 00:09:58,240 hands on your horse. There's a there's a natural 184 00:09:58,800 --> 00:10:02,360 healing that comes just from being with your horse and that 185 00:10:02,360 --> 00:10:04,800 you can give to your horse and spending time with him. 186 00:10:04,800 --> 00:10:06,680 I don't really have the words to explain it. 187 00:10:06,680 --> 00:10:09,480 We don't really have the science to explain it, but it's there. 188 00:10:09,480 --> 00:10:13,000 You've got your own horses, you spend time with yours, just 189 00:10:13,240 --> 00:10:15,760 being there with them. I was going to ask you, Sue, if 190 00:10:15,760 --> 00:10:18,640 you can try and put it into words why you think it is such a 191 00:10:18,640 --> 00:10:20,960 healing experience. Not just physically for the 192 00:10:20,960 --> 00:10:24,080 horse who might be getting a massage from from their much 193 00:10:24,080 --> 00:10:27,840 loved owner and and friend, but also for the two of you. 194 00:10:27,840 --> 00:10:32,000 Why is that such a a bonding moment do you think, for us? 195 00:10:32,640 --> 00:10:35,600 I was just going to say there it is very much for the two of you. 196 00:10:35,600 --> 00:10:37,800 It is for us as well As for them. 197 00:10:38,120 --> 00:10:40,240 We spend our lives being so busy. 198 00:10:40,240 --> 00:10:42,960 I mean, it's it's a badge of honor now, isn't it? 199 00:10:42,960 --> 00:10:44,960 I'm busy, How are you? I'm really busy. 200 00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:50,680 And horses don't live their lives that way. 201 00:10:50,840 --> 00:10:55,440 And it's not healthy. We all know it's not healthy for 202 00:10:55,640 --> 00:11:00,040 us to be that busy. And so I think taking that time 203 00:11:00,200 --> 00:11:03,440 to slow down when, when I'm teaching the massage course, I, 204 00:11:03,640 --> 00:11:07,720 I have a horse, massage horse in this course, which is online and 205 00:11:07,720 --> 00:11:09,720 I taught in person for many years. 206 00:11:10,080 --> 00:11:15,240 And I used to say it's like meditating or if you struggle to 207 00:11:15,240 --> 00:11:18,880 meditate, for some people, it's music puts your favorite music 208 00:11:18,880 --> 00:11:21,240 on, preferably not rock music. But if that's what it does it 209 00:11:21,240 --> 00:11:24,880 for you and it's about being here in this moment, I say to 210 00:11:24,880 --> 00:11:27,200 people, leave your baggage at the gate. 211 00:11:27,200 --> 00:11:30,360 Leave your your worries, your thoughts, your stresses. 212 00:11:30,360 --> 00:11:33,080 Leave them at the gate. And I think I was listening to 213 00:11:33,080 --> 00:11:35,160 one of, I can't remember which one of your guests it was, but 214 00:11:35,160 --> 00:11:37,160 they talked about that. They talked about that they'd 215 00:11:37,160 --> 00:11:39,800 gone in and they tried to do this stuff with the horse and it 216 00:11:39,800 --> 00:11:41,880 hadn't worked. And so they'd come back out, 217 00:11:42,160 --> 00:11:44,760 left their baggage at the gate, and then I think it might have 218 00:11:44,760 --> 00:11:46,880 been happy, Sir, and then gone back in. 219 00:11:47,400 --> 00:11:53,960 I think it's being there in the moment and the horse recognizes 220 00:11:53,960 --> 00:11:58,080 that as we spend a lot of time working towards happiness. 221 00:11:58,080 --> 00:12:00,040 That's kind of a buzz phrase, isn't it? 222 00:12:00,040 --> 00:12:03,520 You're supposed to be happy. And I've spent a lot of time 223 00:12:03,520 --> 00:12:05,800 thinking about this. I do, I do loads of reading. 224 00:12:05,800 --> 00:12:07,720 Well, I do loads of listening, actually spend a lot of time in 225 00:12:07,720 --> 00:12:10,880 my car driving to clients. So it's audio books and podcasts 226 00:12:10,880 --> 00:12:12,560 and more audio books and more podcasts. 227 00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:18,360 And I, I try to think of contentment rather than 228 00:12:18,400 --> 00:12:20,760 happiness. And when I think of contentment, 229 00:12:20,760 --> 00:12:22,880 I try to visualize it because that's what so much of this 230 00:12:23,320 --> 00:12:25,560 stuff says that you should do is you should visualize it. 231 00:12:25,920 --> 00:12:29,520 And I visualize the horse grazing in the field or just 232 00:12:29,520 --> 00:12:33,400 sneezing in the field because they're just there or, or 233 00:12:33,400 --> 00:12:38,280 sneezing in the wild each other. But but they're just there and 234 00:12:38,280 --> 00:12:40,520 they're not thinking about what's coming next. 235 00:12:40,520 --> 00:12:42,800 They're not thinking about what they've just done. 236 00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:46,200 They're not rushing around. And I think that the massage 237 00:12:46,440 --> 00:12:51,200 allows us that that connection, that feeling like holding 238 00:12:51,200 --> 00:12:53,840 someone's hands gives you a totally different feeling to 239 00:12:53,840 --> 00:12:55,640 just standing beside that person. 240 00:12:55,920 --> 00:12:58,720 Putting your hands on your horse gives you a totally different 241 00:12:58,720 --> 00:13:00,520 feeling to just standing beside you. 242 00:13:00,960 --> 00:13:02,880 Sorry, I'm walking. No, you're not. 243 00:13:02,880 --> 00:13:06,240 You are taking us on a wonderful journey that we all need to 244 00:13:06,240 --> 00:13:08,640 hear. And and like you say, a reminder 245 00:13:08,640 --> 00:13:12,240 because we all are juggling careers and relationships and 246 00:13:12,240 --> 00:13:15,880 families potentially and maybe other pets and, and busy 247 00:13:15,880 --> 00:13:19,000 commitments of life. And how often do we actually 248 00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:23,560 slow down and breathe and think, I'm going to prioritize grooming 249 00:13:23,560 --> 00:13:28,000 a massage as much as I prioritize exercising my horse 250 00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:30,240 or training my horse or whatever it might be. 251 00:13:30,440 --> 00:13:33,480 Feed it, You know, we're always thinking about do we need to get 252 00:13:33,480 --> 00:13:36,160 in an extra hey load, particularly at the minute? 253 00:13:36,320 --> 00:13:38,800 Do we need to, you know, go to the feed store and stock up on 254 00:13:38,800 --> 00:13:40,920 XYZ? But actually, we need to 255 00:13:40,920 --> 00:13:45,320 prioritize up the list that time to just be with our horse as 256 00:13:45,320 --> 00:13:47,600 much as all the other jobs that are waiting to be done. 257 00:13:48,280 --> 00:13:52,760 And I think it's OK to sit and cry with your horse as well, or 258 00:13:52,760 --> 00:13:58,360 to laugh with your horse. I think it's OK to, to just to, 259 00:13:58,360 --> 00:14:01,760 to tell him about your day and to just be there with those 260 00:14:01,920 --> 00:14:05,560 emotions and I don't know, share your life with him in that 261 00:14:05,560 --> 00:14:08,560 moment. I had a, a client once she was, 262 00:14:08,760 --> 00:14:11,560 she was studying with intelligent horsemanship and she 263 00:14:11,560 --> 00:14:17,160 was doing one of her a study. She had to do a study and she 264 00:14:17,160 --> 00:14:20,520 sat in the field for three days. She put a tent up and she was 265 00:14:20,520 --> 00:14:23,560 dry and she could sleep, but she stayed in the field for three 266 00:14:23,560 --> 00:14:27,120 days and just watched the comings and goings and the 267 00:14:27,120 --> 00:14:31,040 family still continued to do what they did with their horses. 268 00:14:31,360 --> 00:14:33,160 And so it was really fascinating. 269 00:14:33,160 --> 00:14:35,800 I'll never forget her sort of her expression when she said it, 270 00:14:35,800 --> 00:14:40,040 that the the peace and the quiet of the 23 hours of the day. 271 00:14:40,320 --> 00:14:42,800 And then there's sudden madness when someone appears and 272 00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:44,680 prevailed and there's always talking and there's always 273 00:14:44,680 --> 00:14:47,360 doing, and then back to the peace and the quiet again. 274 00:14:47,360 --> 00:14:51,360 And I think we can be with our horses to help us to find those 275 00:14:51,360 --> 00:14:53,080 moments, to help us to make those moments. 276 00:14:53,080 --> 00:14:54,880 They're like great way of doing it. 277 00:14:55,560 --> 00:14:58,160 And how interesting that we start talking about the massage 278 00:14:58,160 --> 00:15:01,960 toolkit and immediately it becomes about both us and our 279 00:15:01,960 --> 00:15:05,280 horse and that partnership and that bond and the relationship 280 00:15:05,280 --> 00:15:08,400 between us as well. Where can we start, Sue, in 281 00:15:08,400 --> 00:15:10,880 terms of massage? Because the one thing that I 282 00:15:10,880 --> 00:15:15,560 love to do is grooming and laying my hands on my horse and, 283 00:15:15,560 --> 00:15:19,200 you know, and feeling their outline and having that skin to 284 00:15:19,200 --> 00:15:22,080 skin connection. But also at the same time, there 285 00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:24,400 is that worry that we're going to maybe do something wrong if 286 00:15:24,400 --> 00:15:28,920 we you know, I'm a terrible mass who's on humans, I've been told 287 00:15:29,320 --> 00:15:33,200 absolutely diabolical. So almost that sort of I then 288 00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:35,600 think about horses and I think, Oh no, I'm probably giving them 289 00:15:35,600 --> 00:15:39,000 the terrible back massage. So where do we begin, Sue? 290 00:15:39,840 --> 00:15:43,040 So I would. Say just begin with stroking, 291 00:15:43,040 --> 00:15:45,320 but before that, begin with slowing down. 292 00:15:45,720 --> 00:15:49,400 The horse is going to give you feedback in the moment and 293 00:15:49,520 --> 00:15:51,600 they're going to give you honest feedback. 294 00:15:51,600 --> 00:15:54,760 So if they don't like what you're doing, then you're going 295 00:15:54,760 --> 00:15:58,560 to know about it. And that's where, again, when we 296 00:15:58,560 --> 00:16:00,600 come with harmonious horsemanship and brain pain or 297 00:16:00,600 --> 00:16:02,840 training, it's about listening to our horses. 298 00:16:03,160 --> 00:16:07,400 It's about being curious, being curious rather than being 299 00:16:07,400 --> 00:16:12,640 certain and, and just watching, listening and and learning. 300 00:16:12,800 --> 00:16:17,680 So slow down and just stroke. So I would start with your 301 00:16:17,680 --> 00:16:21,880 massage with just running your hands all over your horse. 302 00:16:22,200 --> 00:16:26,840 But in my, in my horse massage horse owners online course, I 303 00:16:26,840 --> 00:16:30,920 talk about, for example, a massage move on the horse's 304 00:16:30,920 --> 00:16:33,400 neck. And I talk about how to do the 305 00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:37,680 move teachers do it on a person first or on yourself 1st and 306 00:16:37,680 --> 00:16:40,320 then how to do it on the horse. And I'll talk about the anatomy 307 00:16:40,320 --> 00:16:42,960 that underlies it. So you can get into all of this 308 00:16:42,960 --> 00:16:46,320 thinking stuff, but I also talk about how long to take to do the 309 00:16:46,320 --> 00:16:47,720 move. And you can take however long 310 00:16:47,720 --> 00:16:50,000 you like. But I always find it easier to 311 00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:53,000 learn things if I've got, so think about it as being the 312 00:16:53,000 --> 00:16:56,320 Jamie Oliver of horse massages. Like you've got this ABC 313 00:16:56,320 --> 00:16:59,240 structure first if you've got the ABC to follow, and then you 314 00:16:59,240 --> 00:17:00,760 can deviate from that afterwards. 315 00:17:01,120 --> 00:17:05,040 And I talk about taking 4 seconds to get from the pole to 316 00:17:05,040 --> 00:17:10,400 their shoulder, but go at least as slow as that, if not slower, 317 00:17:10,599 --> 00:17:14,040 and go over the whole horse. And the more sensitive that the 318 00:17:14,040 --> 00:17:17,760 horse is, the more reactive that your horse is, the softer and 319 00:17:17,760 --> 00:17:21,599 the slower that you need to be. So that's my continual on the 320 00:17:21,599 --> 00:17:25,319 horse massage course. The continual reframe is slow 321 00:17:25,319 --> 00:17:28,280 down and go more softly. But horses can feel a family 322 00:17:28,280 --> 00:17:31,320 landing on them. But they don't need needs. 323 00:17:31,680 --> 00:17:34,200 Massage doesn't need to be painful. 324 00:17:34,200 --> 00:17:36,880 It doesn't need to be digging in and pushing at those muscles. 325 00:17:37,040 --> 00:17:40,520 We're working, particularly the type of massage that I am 326 00:17:41,280 --> 00:17:44,880 teaching is working more on the nervous system than it. 327 00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:48,000 We're not thinking about going in and squashing those muscles 328 00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:49,840 and changing those blood vessels. 329 00:17:50,160 --> 00:17:54,160 We naturally want to be in a healthy state. 330 00:17:54,160 --> 00:17:57,360 Our bodies and our horses bodies naturally want to be in a 331 00:17:57,360 --> 00:18:00,640 healthy state when they're not in a healthy state the vast 332 00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:03,840 majority of the time. That's because something has 333 00:18:03,840 --> 00:18:08,280 happened to create that. So with us, the most common 334 00:18:08,280 --> 00:18:12,400 issue that I see as physio is repetitive strain stuff. 335 00:18:12,520 --> 00:18:16,000 It's and I don't necessarily mean injury, but postural stuff, 336 00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:21,040 shoulders aching, the slumps and blumps of our computers or legs 337 00:18:21,040 --> 00:18:23,040 aching cause we've run too far or. 338 00:18:23,480 --> 00:18:27,360 But we we will heal from all of these things if we can allow the 339 00:18:27,360 --> 00:18:30,080 healing to happen. So it's more that we impede the 340 00:18:30,080 --> 00:18:35,240 healing from happening and the nervous system is really 341 00:18:35,240 --> 00:18:37,880 important in triggering that healing. 342 00:18:37,880 --> 00:18:42,160 So if we can release restrictions, if we can make 343 00:18:42,160 --> 00:18:45,400 sure that joints are moving as they should be, if we can make 344 00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:48,280 sure that the circulation is flowing as it should be, then 345 00:18:48,280 --> 00:18:51,760 the nervous system will encourage the body to return to 346 00:18:51,760 --> 00:18:54,840 a healthy system. So when when you're stroking 347 00:18:54,840 --> 00:18:59,400 your horse, you're firing up that nervous system and when 348 00:18:59,400 --> 00:19:03,040 you're in the moment with that horse, like meditating with that 349 00:19:03,040 --> 00:19:06,240 horse or dancing with that horse, like you're going to slow 350 00:19:06,240 --> 00:19:07,600 dance with that horse. If you want to think about it 351 00:19:07,600 --> 00:19:10,400 like music or, but you're there in that moment where that horse, 352 00:19:10,400 --> 00:19:16,320 nothing else matters and you're wanting to offer Wellness to 353 00:19:16,320 --> 00:19:22,480 that horse, then the the horse's nervous system will naturally 354 00:19:22,480 --> 00:19:25,040 tune into that. So softer and slower, softer and 355 00:19:25,040 --> 00:19:27,600 slower, softer and slower. I say to people, what is it that 356 00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:29,360 you do for work? And they've got this like pissy, 357 00:19:29,360 --> 00:19:32,520 I'm a lawyer or I'm a it's just like, yeah, I could tell. 358 00:19:32,960 --> 00:19:36,520 Just slow down. If I'm a younger, I'm much more 359 00:19:36,520 --> 00:19:40,400 likely to go slowly and softly. I bet you can tell almost what 360 00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:42,520 they do by their energy, can't you? 361 00:19:42,560 --> 00:19:45,200 By people's energy? Yeah, Absolutely. 362 00:19:45,920 --> 00:19:48,600 Yeah. And imagine also going out to 363 00:19:48,720 --> 00:19:52,960 clients horses, you must be working with both the human and 364 00:19:52,960 --> 00:19:55,760 the horse. Do you kind of try and encourage 365 00:19:55,760 --> 00:19:59,200 this practice and, and try and get people to slow down their 366 00:19:59,200 --> 00:20:02,160 energy and and calm as well during the session, even when 367 00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:03,920 you're working with just the horse? 368 00:20:04,880 --> 00:20:08,320 Yeah, when it's me and an owner and a horse, then absolutely 369 00:20:08,320 --> 00:20:11,920 we'll be, we'll be having a chat and we'll we'll hopefully be 370 00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:13,840 there in the moment with that horse. 371 00:20:14,120 --> 00:20:18,320 I try, I treat every horse and every owner as an individual and 372 00:20:18,320 --> 00:20:21,920 I very much treat the horse and owner as a partnership. 373 00:20:22,120 --> 00:20:24,760 And to me it really is about a partnership and it's all it's 374 00:20:24,760 --> 00:20:27,880 also about the team. And I think that that's, it's 375 00:20:27,880 --> 00:20:32,880 knowing what support that person has got around them, what 376 00:20:32,880 --> 00:20:34,760 support that horse has got around them, what the 377 00:20:34,760 --> 00:20:37,600 environment is. There's so many different 378 00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:44,000 factors come into working with a horse and a rider and brain pain 379 00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:45,680 or training. One of the key. 380 00:20:45,680 --> 00:20:48,600 I had 27 guest contributors to brain pain or training we had 381 00:20:48,600 --> 00:20:51,400 done in in harmonious horsemanship. 382 00:20:51,400 --> 00:20:54,400 We've got case studies, real life case studies which I can 383 00:20:54,520 --> 00:20:57,040 share a bit about if you want. And we've got guest 384 00:20:57,040 --> 00:20:58,560 contributors. We've got lots of different 385 00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:03,960 organisations, barriers and vets and physios and nutritionist 386 00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:06,440 Claire MacLeod, I know she was on, she's in. 387 00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:08,280 She's great for harmonious horsemanship. 388 00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:10,520 And the threads are connecting, aren't they? 389 00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:13,480 Isn't it amazing how each guest without even knowing? 390 00:21:13,480 --> 00:21:16,040 And for the listeners who are, you know, intrigued, thinking, 391 00:21:16,040 --> 00:21:18,440 oh, were you just going through each other's address books and 392 00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:21,440 e-mail lists? No, you know, we, we all find 393 00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:24,080 each other separately and then everyone seems to be connected 394 00:21:24,080 --> 00:21:27,360 in some way. And it it's amazing how people 395 00:21:27,360 --> 00:21:30,920 do link back and episodes link back without even planning it 396 00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:34,160 sometimes, which is lovely. Oh, absolutely. 397 00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:37,560 So yes. And the team is a is really 398 00:21:37,560 --> 00:21:40,120 important. So when I'm working with the 399 00:21:40,120 --> 00:21:44,040 horse and rider, I'm thinking about the horse as an 400 00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:46,040 individual, the rider as an individual, those as a 401 00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:49,240 partnership, and then also the team all around them. 402 00:21:50,040 --> 00:21:53,080 Can you talk to you? Just Sue sort of teased us with 403 00:21:53,080 --> 00:21:54,840 a transformation and a case study. 404 00:21:54,840 --> 00:21:57,640 Could you tell us about one of the horses that you've worked 405 00:21:57,640 --> 00:22:00,480 with that's really stayed with you and that really has gone 406 00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:03,080 through a transformation through massage and physio? 407 00:22:05,120 --> 00:22:08,120 So I share a case study from harmonious horsemanship. 408 00:22:08,120 --> 00:22:12,280 So it's a case study of the importance of listening to the 409 00:22:12,280 --> 00:22:16,920 horse and Alice and Star were their first cases. 410 00:22:16,920 --> 00:22:19,440 I think there's I think there's 11 case studies in the book. 411 00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:23,320 And star, she's absolutely stunning Chestnut there. 412 00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:29,040 I I worked with I met Alice quite late in my journey and 413 00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:35,920 Alice had star from very from pole and then wanted obviously 414 00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:40,160 to to back her and work her and really struggled with scars 415 00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:43,000 behaviour. It was very up and down could be 416 00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:47,440 very explosive at times and she had different trainers work with 417 00:22:47,520 --> 00:22:50,120 her and different vets look at her. 418 00:22:50,120 --> 00:22:54,600 She even at one point had the X-ray scars back and they found 419 00:22:54,680 --> 00:22:59,200 kissing spine and the vet said that it wasn't relevant. 420 00:22:59,920 --> 00:23:02,040 Alice kept saying this isn't right, this isn't right. 421 00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:06,600 Eventually she found a trainer who took star on and within a 422 00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:09,960 week said this isn't right. I think the kissing spine is 423 00:23:10,120 --> 00:23:15,720 causing the problem and Alice agreed to have stars back nerve 424 00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:18,560 blocked and there was a complete change in the north. 425 00:23:18,560 --> 00:23:22,720 Totally different there. It's a, it's a reminder of 426 00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:28,720 something that I see far more often than I hope I will in the 427 00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:30,960 future. And everyone is, everyone is 428 00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:34,360 doing their best. And I say this so often. 429 00:23:34,360 --> 00:23:37,760 We are all doing the best that we can with the knowledge and 430 00:23:37,760 --> 00:23:40,440 the tools and the experience that we have at this moment. 431 00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:44,400 And I look back at things that I did 10 years ago and think, Oh 432 00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:48,560 my gosh, why didn't I do XYZ? And I hope that in 10 years 433 00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:51,080 time, I will look back at doing what I'm doing now and I will 434 00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:53,280 go, Oh my gosh, why didn't I do XYZ? 435 00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:56,440 Because I want to continually improve. 436 00:23:57,040 --> 00:24:02,720 And what I see a lot is riders blaming themselves, riders or 437 00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:06,520 coaches blaming themselves or blaming their equipment or 438 00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:09,480 blaming their instructor or blaming the circus or blaming 439 00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:12,480 the fact that the horse hadn't been turned out for long enough 440 00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:16,920 or blaming the feed off. And it, I think it, it's often 441 00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:20,720 emotionally easier to blame all of these things, which in theory 442 00:24:20,720 --> 00:24:22,560 we can change. Changing ourselves is quite 443 00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:26,200 difficult, but we can buy a new saddle, we can use a new feed, 444 00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:29,000 we can turn out for longer. And I think it's often 445 00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:31,920 emotionally easier to look at that stuff than it is to think 446 00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:35,320 that there might be something wrong with our horse, that our 447 00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:38,280 horse might be in some pain or discomfort. 448 00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:41,280 And that's where the ridden horse pain Instagram and 449 00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:45,400 harmonious horsemanship came in. So horses are athletes, 450 00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:48,000 especially ridden horses are athletes. 451 00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:52,200 And you wouldn't expect any athletes not to have any sore 452 00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:54,400 spots. My brother runs in Iron Men 453 00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:58,680 crazy, but there is absolutely no chance that he's not going to 454 00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:01,280 have any sore spots if I poke and pod his muscles. 455 00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:05,760 I do not do iron then I am. It's not my thing. 456 00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:10,080 But I can tell you that there is absolutely no chance that I 457 00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:12,720 wouldn't have some sore spots if you poke and pod at me. 458 00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:14,960 And I do have myself treated on a regular basis. 459 00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:17,880 I get myself treated at least every four to six weeks because 460 00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:21,360 I believe in prevention and proactive health and well-being 461 00:25:21,360 --> 00:25:25,360 and performance. So I wouldn't expect a horse, 462 00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:28,720 particularly a horse who's working as an athlete, not to 463 00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:34,040 have any sore spots. But the key is in how that horse 464 00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:36,760 feels about that. It's not that we're expecting 465 00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:40,320 them to feel 100% comfortable. They'll have a tight muscle here 466 00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:42,680 or there, especially if they've done a bit more the day before 467 00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:46,200 or but the key is in how that horse feels about it. 468 00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:49,960 And that's where the magic of Sue Dicings work, That that's 469 00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:53,200 the message that we really wanted to get across with the 470 00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:57,400 work. That's kind of where my where 471 00:25:57,400 --> 00:25:59,560 I'm trying to, to go with my work back. 472 00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:04,360 A kind of big goal is that I said by 20-30 that everyone in 473 00:26:04,360 --> 00:26:07,120 the equestrian world will recognise that pain and 474 00:26:07,120 --> 00:26:10,400 behaviour in horses are linked because horses can only 475 00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:14,560 communicate their pain or their discomfort through their 476 00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:18,480 behaviour or their performance. And so often they're labeled as 477 00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:21,760 naughty or difficult or awkward or lazy. 478 00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:27,760 And what matters is how the horse feels about what we're 479 00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:32,040 asking him to do. So one horse might be perfectly 480 00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:36,760 fine walking truck hacking, but you ask him to do a Prelim 481 00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:40,160 dressage test that includes some cans on a 20 minutes circle, and 482 00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:44,000 it's too much for him. And another horse. 483 00:26:44,360 --> 00:26:49,640 I might find a horse that's got quite a lot of muscle spasm when 484 00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:55,560 I'm assessing him, but actually when you're watching work, he's 485 00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:58,800 forward, he's balanced, he's straight, he's got his ears 486 00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:01,040 pricked, might come across another horse. 487 00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:05,400 But really in terms of when I'm palpating, when I'm doing limb 488 00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:08,320 range of movement, when I've been spinal range and assessing 489 00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:10,720 that horse, sorry, palpating means feeling through the 490 00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:14,400 muscles, but I can't really find anything of note. 491 00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:17,920 But that horse, he goes to the back of the stable when he sees 492 00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:21,080 his saddle, he pulls a face. When you go to put the bridle 493 00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:23,720 on, when you ask gets to where the rider gets on and asks him 494 00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:25,680 to walk forward, his reluctance would go. 495 00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:28,000 He might be tripping or napping or backing off. 496 00:27:28,280 --> 00:27:33,480 And just because I can't easily find anything as a physio that 497 00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:35,480 does, I can't just say, well, that horse is OK. 498 00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:39,240 What matters is how the horse feels about what we're asking 499 00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:42,160 him to do. And what are we looking for, 500 00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:45,480 Sue, in that moment in terms of reactions? 501 00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:47,800 You talk about the reactions when we're massaging, when we're 502 00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:51,240 feeling, when a horse is comfortable and at ease. 503 00:27:51,360 --> 00:27:53,280 What do we expect to see in a massage? 504 00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:56,120 And equally if they're sort of tight or in pain. 505 00:27:57,320 --> 00:28:03,920 So when we're when the horse is comfortable and relaxed, then I 506 00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:07,680 think of like that image that I have of the content horse in the 507 00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:09,680 field. So he might be munching on his 508 00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:12,640 hay and he might be to massage him while he's eating his hay. 509 00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:16,040 Or you might be just having tied up in the the stable or you 510 00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:17,680 might just be out in the field with him. 511 00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:21,920 But if he's comfortable, he's just he's going to look content 512 00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:26,080 and relax. And Sue has done a study, but 513 00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:29,480 she's done a study on what a comfortable horse looks like in 514 00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:31,760 his freedom work. And you can translate that 515 00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:33,960 across a bit to the ground work as well. 516 00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:37,800 But he will be that content, relaxed horse. 517 00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:40,320 He will be continuing to do the things that he would normally be 518 00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:42,800 doing as a horse. The horse that is less 519 00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:46,200 comfortable. He might be trying to move away 520 00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:50,320 from you, he might put his ears back, he might swish his tail, 521 00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:52,320 he might swing his head around towards you. 522 00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:58,120 And that's so often I hear when the horse is given that 523 00:28:58,120 --> 00:28:59,800 reaction. It's usually when I'm at the 524 00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:02,640 yard and someone else on the yard, someone that I'm not 525 00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:04,600 involved with, is perhaps attacking their horse up. 526 00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:07,880 And you see the horse swings, swing his head around for them 527 00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:12,120 and just put his ears back at them and they just tell him stop 528 00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:14,560 being so naughty. Or you get called being a Moody 529 00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:17,560 mare. It's communication. 530 00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:18,880 The horse is trying to communicate. 531 00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:23,840 So yeah, you'll see the sort of negative communication you also 532 00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:27,720 can feel in the muscles depending on how often you put 533 00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:29,880 your hands on your horse. You think the more often put 534 00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:33,160 your hands on the horse, the better you get to feel what 535 00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:38,200 normal is for your horse. So the muscle that feels good 536 00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:40,760 kind of feels a bit like plasticine under your hands, if 537 00:29:40,760 --> 00:29:42,600 anyone remembers playing with plasticine. 538 00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:46,720 And then a muscle that is not feeling so good will feel more 539 00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:49,680 like a block of wood. Basically the muscle feels 540 00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:51,520 harder. And depending on where you are 541 00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:54,000 in the on the horse, some bits are going to feel harder and 542 00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:56,280 some bits are going to feel softer depending on how close 543 00:29:56,280 --> 00:29:59,960 the bone is to the skin. Because mostly if the bone is is 544 00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:02,600 not overlaid by thick muscle, if the bone is very close to the 545 00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:05,040 skin, then it's going to feel harder in that area. 546 00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:08,640 But as I say, the more often you get your hands on the horse, the 547 00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:11,640 easier comes to feel. And then the other thing that's 548 00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:15,920 I think really easy is what's called fasciculation and the 549 00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:19,280 place that people most often notice it, they call it horses 550 00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:20,920 being Tipoli in their girth area. 551 00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:23,960 So if you've ever seen a horse that's particularly in its or 552 00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:26,640 felt or particularly its girth area, as you stroke down that 553 00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:29,800 girth area, the muscle kind of. It's. 554 00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:32,280 Twitches on your skin and people say the horse is ticklish. 555 00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:36,960 That is a sign of irritation. That's a sign of the horse is 556 00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:39,760 not completely comfortable and you can get that in other areas 557 00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:42,440 on the horse as well. Ear shy is another one. 558 00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:46,880 Horses shouldn't naturally be air shy in my opinion. 559 00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:50,880 Everything that I say here today is my opinion because that's all 560 00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:54,040 that I can give. All I'm trying to do is share 561 00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:57,400 the knowledge and experience that I have gained over the 562 00:30:57,400 --> 00:31:00,840 years. But I it's one of my one of my 563 00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:03,320 soapbox things is air shy horses. 564 00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:06,240 They shouldn't be air shy, and if they are air shy, it's 565 00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:10,720 usually because there is some muscle spasm or some bones, a 566 00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:14,320 phony misalignment or something isn't right at the pole. 567 00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:19,320 And in the vast majority of cases, this can be improved. 568 00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:22,000 Not always fully resolved. Depends on how long it's been 569 00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:23,360 there, depends on what's causing it. 570 00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:26,400 In the vast majority of cases it can be improved. 571 00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:30,520 So when you put your hands under their tail, then that's often a 572 00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:32,640 sign that there's tightness in the hamstrings. 573 00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:37,600 So there's several of these. I've got a, another online 574 00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:39,600 course, it's called the Horse Health Check course. 575 00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:44,080 And there's 10 things that you can check on like this that help 576 00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:47,600 you to recognize that that's an area that perhaps you could 577 00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:51,000 spend some more time working on or slow down more on it. 578 00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:54,160 Yeah. I for one, will be learning how 579 00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:59,040 to massage because don't we all feel those who look after horses 580 00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:02,960 or own their own horses that we feel more empowered when we can 581 00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:04,920 take action. If a horse is looking a bit 582 00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:08,280 uncomfortable or not too happy, instead of, you know, originally 583 00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:11,680 panicking and ringing the vets or and getting the professionals 584 00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:14,880 in, which of course we need to do in, in, you know, emergency 585 00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:17,120 scenarios. But if it's just a slight bit of 586 00:32:17,120 --> 00:32:20,360 discomfort, how empowering do we feel empowered? 587 00:32:20,360 --> 00:32:24,720 Do we feel when we can take over and try and help our horse in 588 00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:28,400 the first instance? Is that what you're hoping, Sue? 589 00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:31,600 Is that what you want your clients to feel you know able to 590 00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:34,720 do? What we want is for people to 591 00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:37,760 feel empowered. And I think that the thing that 592 00:32:38,360 --> 00:32:41,240 allows us to feel empowered is knowledge. 593 00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:45,600 And putting our hands on our horses in on a more regular 594 00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:51,080 basis and in specific ways means that we have more awareness of 595 00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:54,480 what's normal for our horse, which then enables us to know 596 00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:57,960 when things are not normal. And then we know when to call 597 00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:00,040 someone. And then if we've got 598 00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:02,320 professionals involved, we can give them a call and we can say, 599 00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:04,000 I've noticed this. Is this something that you 600 00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:06,160 should come and look at or is it something that I can do with 601 00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:07,840 myself? And when you've got this team 602 00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:11,400 around your horse that you've all got a relationship together, 603 00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:14,120 then you'll be able to do that. You'll be able to say, is this 604 00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:16,600 something you need to see today or is this something that we can 605 00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:19,040 wait six weeks with? And the same with the written 606 00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:24,760 work, they can recognize when something isn't how they feel 607 00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:27,840 that it should be and they've got a language that they can use 608 00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:30,200 to communicate with the professionals. 609 00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:32,880 So absolutely. And I think, like you say, being 610 00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:37,800 able to take action. And I find it quite easy to get 611 00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:40,880 anxious about stuff and to worry about what's coming up. 612 00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:44,240 And I am so much better if I can do something. 613 00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:46,920 Since before we've recorded this, I've been out for a walk 614 00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:50,600 because if I could keep my feet moving, if I could do something, 615 00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:52,360 it stopped me getting in such space. 616 00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:57,240 And the massage enables us to be with a horse, to be in this 617 00:33:57,240 --> 00:33:59,240 moment. It brings us back to the 618 00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:02,560 presence and helps to ease some of that anxiety. 619 00:34:02,560 --> 00:34:05,200 But yeah, I think the empowerment is the knowledge. 620 00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:12,400 And that's, I speak to so many people and everyone is amazing. 621 00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:14,040 Yeah. So it's I think that's what's 622 00:34:14,040 --> 00:34:16,400 empowering is the knowledge, because then we can make 623 00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:19,239 educated decisions. And that's what makes the 624 00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:20,840 difference, the educated decisions. 625 00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:24,760 And I love the fact that guests talk about their online 626 00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:28,639 communities, their social media followers and the wonderful 627 00:34:28,639 --> 00:34:31,840 comments that get, they get the, the hints and tips, the bits of 628 00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:34,639 advice, the gems, the bits of gold that we all learn along the 629 00:34:34,639 --> 00:34:37,320 way, whether we're professionals or not in the equestrian world. 630 00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:40,920 Because when we are day-to-day in the horse community, there's 631 00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:43,880 a lot of judgment, isn't there? There's a lot of negativity 632 00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:47,199 sometimes or gossip at different yards or, you know, within 633 00:34:47,199 --> 00:34:49,120 competition. Well, and actually you get quite 634 00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:53,480 a jaded opinion of of equestrian and we all know that, you know, 635 00:34:53,560 --> 00:34:56,480 many, you know, professionals we speak to farriers might say or 636 00:34:56,480 --> 00:34:59,200 vets might say, oh, you know, yards could be quite clicky. 637 00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:00,440 It could be quite a difficult environment. 638 00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:03,440 We love here at Curious Question to talk about the online 639 00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:06,120 communities that are being built and the friendships that are 640 00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:09,360 being made across the world. You know, not all equestrians 641 00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:11,680 and not all people are the same. And actually you can find 642 00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:15,200 kindred spirits, perhaps not at your local yard or down the 643 00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:16,760 road, but actually across the world. 644 00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:19,080 And you can all connect and share stories and help and 645 00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:21,040 advice. And that's what it's about, 646 00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:23,400 isn't it? Absolutely. 647 00:35:23,440 --> 00:35:27,840 And I say again and again that we are all doing the best that 648 00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:30,480 we can given the knowledge, tools and experience that we've 649 00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:33,160 got in this moment. And we all would hope that we 650 00:35:33,160 --> 00:35:34,640 will be doing better in the future. 651 00:35:34,840 --> 00:35:36,480 We're all here because of our horses. 652 00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:40,040 We're all here because we love our horses and we're all doing 653 00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:45,400 the best that we can by them. And also just a reminder that if 654 00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:49,040 you are out there massaging your horse, being in the moment and 655 00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:54,040 content with that horse at that time, then you're not able to be 656 00:35:54,040 --> 00:35:57,920 putting judgmental comments off on Facebook or any other social 657 00:35:58,080 --> 00:35:59,840 media planet. Just be with. 658 00:35:59,840 --> 00:36:03,280 Yourself, stop shattering and go do more with your horse. 659 00:36:03,680 --> 00:36:08,640 Yes, stop spreading hate and go and be with your horse. 660 00:36:08,840 --> 00:36:10,280 I love it. You know, maybe that's what we 661 00:36:10,280 --> 00:36:12,240 should comment next time the trolls strike. 662 00:36:13,240 --> 00:36:15,040 Well, then the last time that you spend with the horse and 663 00:36:15,040 --> 00:36:17,560 what you want to spend is to spread the love anyway on it. 664 00:36:17,720 --> 00:36:20,480 So that's what they do for you. Oh yeah. 665 00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:23,800 And Sue, tell us, how often should we massage and when 666 00:36:23,800 --> 00:36:26,480 should we massage? Because we've certainly covered 667 00:36:26,480 --> 00:36:29,280 the ground where we've got some, maybe a spare hour, maybe a day 668 00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:32,840 off to spend with our horse. But on a busy week, how often 669 00:36:32,840 --> 00:36:35,920 should we prioritize massage? And should we be massaging 670 00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:39,520 before or after exercise? And how many times a week? 671 00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:43,920 I'm going to cop out a bit and say that it does depend on the 672 00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:49,000 individual and that ideally your professional for the 673 00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:51,280 professional or the physical therapist that you work with 674 00:36:51,280 --> 00:36:52,960 with your horse will advise you on that. 675 00:36:53,680 --> 00:37:00,800 But as AI was going to say, as a general guide, ideally if you 676 00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:04,760 can get your hands on your horse at least once a week, I think 677 00:37:04,760 --> 00:37:09,160 that that helps you to recognize the normal over the abnormal. 678 00:37:09,600 --> 00:37:12,520 In terms of before or after, it depends on what it is that 679 00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:15,080 you're trying to achieve. If you want to warm your horse 680 00:37:15,080 --> 00:37:17,640 up before your work isn't stiff, then you're going to be it best 681 00:37:17,640 --> 00:37:20,560 to do some massage before if you want. 682 00:37:20,680 --> 00:37:23,040 If you've been working hard and you want him to be more 683 00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:25,640 comfortable afterwards and massaging him after. 684 00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:28,240 How long you massage for it's going to depend. 685 00:37:28,240 --> 00:37:37,520 If you are working to settle the muscles spasm related to causing 686 00:37:37,520 --> 00:37:40,800 the horse to the ear shy for example, you might just focus 3 687 00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:44,760 minutes on one particular area twice a day or more. 688 00:37:44,840 --> 00:37:49,920 If it's the massage that I teach in my course is about 45 minutes 689 00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:52,080 ish. So what I say for that one ideal 690 00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:57,080 is say you rode your horse six days a week then you might do 691 00:37:57,080 --> 00:38:02,520 that on the one day off. I think the most important thing 692 00:38:02,520 --> 00:38:06,360 probably is being able to be in that moment when you do it. 693 00:38:06,360 --> 00:38:09,880 So trying to massage your horse whilst the rest of the yard is 694 00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:13,720 being turned out is probably not the right time. 695 00:38:13,960 --> 00:38:18,440 Trying to massage whilst feed is being dished out is probably not 696 00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:20,840 the right time. So I think probably, yeah, it's 697 00:38:20,840 --> 00:38:23,480 just about what's right for you Angela. 698 00:38:23,520 --> 00:38:25,240 But yeah, ask your team. I love it. 699 00:38:25,240 --> 00:38:28,200 So I love that once a week is enough and actually is enough to 700 00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:29,800 make a difference. That's good to know because 701 00:38:29,800 --> 00:38:32,680 sometimes you can kind of say, oh, you know, should I be as, as 702 00:38:32,680 --> 00:38:35,000 we're often told, we should be doing this three times a week 703 00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:37,040 and that four times a week. So that's great to know. 704 00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:39,680 Also good to know you almost can't massage too much. 705 00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:42,560 So if you wanted to massage before exercise and after, if 706 00:38:42,560 --> 00:38:45,000 you've got the time, then that's also really good to know. 707 00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:49,560 And thirdly, I love that you always mention the environment 708 00:38:49,560 --> 00:38:52,920 because if you've ever been speaking to our listeners now 709 00:38:52,920 --> 00:38:56,120 for a sports massage, which previously have years ago when 710 00:38:56,120 --> 00:38:59,360 I, you know, had a sore back, the environment is always 711 00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:01,440 thought about, isn't it? With human clients, there might 712 00:39:01,440 --> 00:39:04,400 be candles. It's a beautiful sort of setup. 713 00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:07,200 But I love that you keep coming back to this for our horses as 714 00:39:07,200 --> 00:39:09,760 well, to make sure that that is there in place for them. 715 00:39:09,760 --> 00:39:13,080 They may be in their stable or their paddock or their field as 716 00:39:13,080 --> 00:39:16,920 they always are, but making sure that it's not a frenetic time in 717 00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:20,680 in the yard schedule, making sure you yourself are feeling 718 00:39:20,880 --> 00:39:24,480 relaxed and comfortable, ready, ready for massage and trying to 719 00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:27,920 bring a bit of that luxury to our horses lives as well. 720 00:39:28,760 --> 00:39:30,560 Absolutely. And also remembering that 721 00:39:30,560 --> 00:39:32,880 massage is not the only thing. And if you've got a broken 722 00:39:32,880 --> 00:39:35,200 ankle, it doesn't matter how much massage you have on your 723 00:39:35,200 --> 00:39:38,360 back, it's not going to help your ankle if your horse has got 724 00:39:38,360 --> 00:39:43,200 a badly fitting saddle or if the barrier is, is something not 725 00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:44,840 right with what's going on with the barrier. 726 00:39:45,960 --> 00:39:49,240 If the feed is not right, it doesn't matter how much massage. 727 00:39:49,240 --> 00:39:51,440 It doesn't mean to say that you can't do it, but you're not 728 00:39:51,440 --> 00:39:55,120 it's, it's not a fix all. It's a part of the whole. 729 00:39:57,080 --> 00:39:59,040 It's a jigsaw piece in in the puzzle. 730 00:39:59,320 --> 00:40:01,240 And so you mentioned your mission and we're going to delve 731 00:40:01,240 --> 00:40:04,240 into that a bit more in a moment, but just rewind for us. 732 00:40:04,440 --> 00:40:08,440 When did you become so passionate about massage and 733 00:40:08,440 --> 00:40:09,440 about physio? Ah. 734 00:40:14,280 --> 00:40:20,440 So I've, I've always loved massage, but I think that in 735 00:40:20,440 --> 00:40:26,720 terms of linking the pain and behaviour in horses, there's a 736 00:40:26,720 --> 00:40:29,760 particular horse where it just clicked for me. 737 00:40:29,760 --> 00:40:32,120 So I was working as an intelligent horsemanship 738 00:40:32,120 --> 00:40:35,520 recommended trainers, working with horses with behavioral 739 00:40:35,520 --> 00:40:37,840 issues, and I was actually studying equine touch. 740 00:40:37,840 --> 00:40:41,360 I listened to your, The Curious question equine touch piece as 741 00:40:41,360 --> 00:40:43,440 well. That seems like so many years 742 00:40:43,440 --> 00:40:47,240 ago. And I went to see a horse who 743 00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:50,480 had a history of bolting. It was freezing. 744 00:40:50,480 --> 00:40:54,920 It was in Berkshire and it had this big open place and they 745 00:40:54,920 --> 00:41:00,600 popped the horse on the lunge and it just on what? 746 00:41:00,600 --> 00:41:02,840 On what? I didn't have any physio 747 00:41:02,840 --> 00:41:06,120 qualifications. I was a BHSAI and I was working 748 00:41:06,160 --> 00:41:08,000 as an intelligent horse and sheep recommended things. 749 00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:09,440 I was just working on the behavior. 750 00:41:10,080 --> 00:41:11,880 But they put him on the lunge because I just thought it was 751 00:41:11,880 --> 00:41:16,040 sensible to look at and on one side, on one rein I could see 752 00:41:16,040 --> 00:41:19,640 both sides of his quarters and on the other rein I couldn't 753 00:41:19,760 --> 00:41:22,880 really see either side. So it was like he sloped on one 754 00:41:22,880 --> 00:41:24,480 side for his quarters and not on the other side. 755 00:41:24,680 --> 00:41:27,080 I didn't know what I was I was talking about, but it just 756 00:41:27,080 --> 00:41:29,080 didn't look right to me. I was like, surely it should 757 00:41:29,080 --> 00:41:34,440 look the same on both brains. So I said to the owner that she 758 00:41:34,440 --> 00:41:37,840 needed to get him physically checked and then give me a call 759 00:41:37,840 --> 00:41:41,120 to come back and have a look and we'd see what we could do about 760 00:41:41,120 --> 00:41:43,800 the behavior. And so she had physical checks 761 00:41:43,800 --> 00:41:47,480 done and apparently the horse was sorted and she got me to go 762 00:41:47,680 --> 00:41:51,160 back and I popped them on the London and I could see exactly 763 00:41:51,160 --> 00:41:54,280 the same thing going on. And I just thought this isn't 764 00:41:54,280 --> 00:41:56,240 right, this something's being missed. 765 00:41:56,240 --> 00:41:58,640 Horses are not being listened to. 766 00:41:59,480 --> 00:42:03,960 If you've got a behaviour happening and a horse is showing 767 00:42:03,960 --> 00:42:06,440 that level of asymmetry, surely we've got to look at the 768 00:42:06,440 --> 00:42:08,920 behaviour first. So that's what then led me to 769 00:42:09,440 --> 00:42:11,480 going and qualifying as a physiast. 770 00:42:11,480 --> 00:42:14,160 I qualified as a human physio first at King's College in 771 00:42:14,160 --> 00:42:18,320 London, and then I worked in the NHS and then I went in, studied 772 00:42:18,320 --> 00:42:22,120 as an animal physique. So I'm now at RAMPA, just the 773 00:42:22,400 --> 00:42:25,440 Association of Childhood Physios and Animal Therapy and the 774 00:42:25,440 --> 00:42:28,160 Register of Animal Muscular School Practitioners. 775 00:42:28,640 --> 00:42:31,880 So yeah, I can still remember, I can still feel the cold that I 776 00:42:31,920 --> 00:42:37,080 felt when I was seeing that horse and just realizing that, 777 00:42:38,080 --> 00:42:42,880 yeah, the links between pain and behavior were needed to be 778 00:42:43,000 --> 00:42:46,080 better recognized. And we love that you're on this 779 00:42:46,080 --> 00:42:50,360 mission to change that ideology that horses are naughty or 780 00:42:50,360 --> 00:42:54,320 cheeky or, you know, taking the Mickey in certain instances. 781 00:42:54,320 --> 00:42:56,800 And actually there's pain behind that. 782 00:42:56,800 --> 00:42:59,720 There could be pain. But why do you think it's going 783 00:42:59,720 --> 00:43:04,280 to take until 2030 for people to get this concept and to 784 00:43:04,280 --> 00:43:08,760 understand this instead of labelling naughty and difficult 785 00:43:08,760 --> 00:43:12,840 horses? I think that was because I was 786 00:43:12,880 --> 00:43:14,680 reading one of my self development books and it said 787 00:43:14,680 --> 00:43:17,720 that we had to have SMART goals so they had to be measured. 788 00:43:17,720 --> 00:43:21,320 So I had to put a date and I couldn't put 2026 because it's 789 00:43:21,360 --> 00:43:23,200 not going to happen by then. But why are? 790 00:43:23,320 --> 00:43:26,680 We not there now, Sue, why do you think it would take so long? 791 00:43:26,840 --> 00:43:30,200 The conversations are starting to open up the research and the 792 00:43:30,200 --> 00:43:33,360 science is there thanks to you know so many incredible 793 00:43:33,360 --> 00:43:36,800 practitioners and also those like yourself Sue, that are out 794 00:43:36,800 --> 00:43:39,680 there talking about this and Sue Dyson too. 795 00:43:39,680 --> 00:43:42,440 But why do you think the industry still slaps these 796 00:43:42,440 --> 00:43:46,680 labels on naughty horses? Like you just said that we're 797 00:43:46,680 --> 00:43:49,120 talking about it. It is a conversation. 798 00:43:49,440 --> 00:43:54,400 I mean a question isn't is hugely traditional and I don't 799 00:43:54,400 --> 00:43:58,760 have the answers to that. I do know that what I thought I 800 00:43:58,760 --> 00:44:01,840 knew, I didn't think I knew everything, but effectively I 801 00:44:01,840 --> 00:44:03,200 thought I knew everything 10 years ago. 802 00:44:03,200 --> 00:44:05,080 I don't think I know everything. That's not what I mean. 803 00:44:05,080 --> 00:44:09,640 But we are all developing. In 10 years time, I will know so 804 00:44:09,640 --> 00:44:13,560 much more than I know now, and I think that we're all in 805 00:44:13,560 --> 00:44:16,200 different places on our journeys. 806 00:44:17,040 --> 00:44:18,800 I hope that we're going the right way. 807 00:44:18,800 --> 00:44:24,440 I feel as though the conversation is going the way 808 00:44:24,440 --> 00:44:27,600 that I believe that it should. But then this is only my 809 00:44:27,600 --> 00:44:30,120 opinion. I believe that we're heading 810 00:44:30,120 --> 00:44:33,880 towards more ethical horsemanship, towards a better 811 00:44:33,880 --> 00:44:37,200 life for horses and towards a better life than humans. 812 00:44:37,560 --> 00:44:43,520 And when you look at the, the, the difficulties and the traumas 813 00:44:43,920 --> 00:44:48,240 with it within the human world, look at, at us as adults, look 814 00:44:48,640 --> 00:44:52,760 at children, look at how, how difficult it is getting things. 815 00:44:53,560 --> 00:44:56,120 I'm a mum. I have no idea whether I'm doing 816 00:44:56,120 --> 00:44:59,280 things right by my son. I mean, all I can do is hope and 817 00:44:59,600 --> 00:45:05,080 pray, and I know that I'll have made big mistakes along the way 818 00:45:05,080 --> 00:45:09,760 because that's what we do and we do it with our horses as well. 819 00:45:09,760 --> 00:45:11,240 But our horses don't have the same voice. 820 00:45:11,240 --> 00:45:12,840 But then our babies don't have a voice either. 821 00:45:12,840 --> 00:45:18,560 So I just think it's a continual development and as long as we 822 00:45:19,160 --> 00:45:25,840 are all, wherever we are in our journey, trying to walk a path 823 00:45:25,840 --> 00:45:32,320 towards kindness, more kindness and trying to be curious more 824 00:45:32,320 --> 00:45:36,080 than certain and choosing curiosity over certainty. 825 00:45:36,120 --> 00:45:41,400 I think, yeah, just continually learning, listening deeply. 826 00:45:42,240 --> 00:45:44,720 Then I think that that's that's the right direction. 827 00:45:44,880 --> 00:45:49,280 And I think that everyone, no, I like to think that everyone is 828 00:45:49,280 --> 00:45:51,360 on that journey. Perhaps I'm just an optimist. 829 00:45:51,600 --> 00:45:56,000 I like to immerse myself in the world where people are on that 830 00:45:56,000 --> 00:46:00,800 journey and those that want to join the conversation. 831 00:46:00,840 --> 00:46:04,800 Everyone is welcome. And for those who yet haven't 832 00:46:04,800 --> 00:46:07,920 joined that conversation, Sue, you're on your mission. 833 00:46:07,920 --> 00:46:11,480 What do you think it's going to take to get to that world in 834 00:46:11,480 --> 00:46:17,320 20-30 where every difficult quote UN quote horse is seen as 835 00:46:17,320 --> 00:46:20,360 a horse that has a story to tell, that is in pain and 836 00:46:20,360 --> 00:46:24,440 discomfort that needs to be investigated and helped rather 837 00:46:24,440 --> 00:46:29,280 than move from pillar to post passed on or or worse, How do 838 00:46:29,280 --> 00:46:31,480 you think we get there and what can we do to help? 839 00:46:32,800 --> 00:46:36,280 I think leading by example is the main thing and sharing the 840 00:46:36,280 --> 00:46:40,840 stories of the horses who have come out the other side of the 841 00:46:40,840 --> 00:46:43,960 struggle. Being brave enough to say I made 842 00:46:43,960 --> 00:46:47,440 a mistake, I got that wrong, I shouldn't have pushed my horse 843 00:46:47,440 --> 00:46:51,320 at that point because actually now we know this is what was 844 00:46:51,320 --> 00:46:53,640 going on. I think leading by example in 845 00:46:53,640 --> 00:46:57,520 sharing stories. Sue, thank you so much for those 846 00:46:57,520 --> 00:46:59,960 listening who want to get in touch with you, want to find 847 00:46:59,960 --> 00:47:02,320 your courses that you've mentioned throughout the episode 848 00:47:02,560 --> 00:47:04,440 and find out more about what you're up to. 849 00:47:04,640 --> 00:47:09,360 How do they do that? The website thehorsevizio.co.uk 850 00:47:09,560 --> 00:47:11,600 and the Facebook page The horse Vizio. 851 00:47:12,440 --> 00:47:15,520 And for those listening, please do join our member zone because 852 00:47:15,520 --> 00:47:18,880 we're now going to go behind the scenes with Sue for a listener 853 00:47:18,880 --> 00:47:22,120 Q&A where Sue will be answering some of your questions and we're 854 00:47:22,120 --> 00:47:25,800 going to go into the green room. So please do join us to help us 855 00:47:26,000 --> 00:47:29,040 keep bringing you brilliant guests like Sue.