Sorry, our three sets of efflerage.
We're now going to move on to our three sets of compression.
So we slide our hands right to the far end, the trapezius
muscle pressure in, move the skin, relax and slide back.
Hello and welcome to Curious Question.
I'm your host Anna Louise, and if you enjoy our podcast, please
click that subscribe button so we can keep bringing you plenty
of brilliant guests. Today it's Sue Palmer AKA The
Horse Physio, an award-winning chartered physiotherapist
promoting kind treatment of horses through education with
empathy. It's Sue's mission that by 2035
every equestrian will understand that there are links between
pain, performance and behaviour. Let's find out how we can use
equine massage as a part of our toolbox to improve our horses
lives. Sue, welcome to Curious
Equestrian. Hi Anna, thanks so much for
having me. So many of your contemporaries
and your colleagues and your friends even have appeared on
the podcast so far and listeners might know Sue Dyson.
About a year ago we did a special all about sort of pain
and identifying lameness, which went down really well with our
community. And and of course, you wrote a
book with Sue. Yeah, harmonious horsemanship.
Yeah. Do you want the story of how we
got there? Yeah, we'd love to know how you
too connected. So I've been interested in the
links between pain and behaviour and horses for a very long time.
I grew up with Horses Painting Club and the riding Club.
I then went on and qualified as an intelligent horsemanship
recommended trainer. So I qualified with Montalvets
and and with Kelly Marks and I was out seeing lots of horses
and trying to understand where the behaviours were coming from.
Ultimately this led to a book called Understanding Horse
Performance, Brain Pain or training, which is called Brain
Pain or training. I went to a horses inside out
conference. I saw Sue Dyson there and was
really excited to see that she was presenting A lecture that
was called Brain or Pain. I was the same year, it was
2016, the same year that I was actually there promoting my book
Brain Pain. The train was like, wow, this is
just so cool. Obviously I've known her, Sue,
for years and I'd actually been to shadow her when she was
working at the Animal Health Trust.
And so I gave her a copy of my book and we kept in touch after
that. And in 2018, the work on the
ridden horse painted the first study on the ridden horse.
And Sue said that she felt that with my position as an author,
because I've got my book, Horse Massage.
The horse owners had come out in 2012 and then Brain pain and
training and my social media following and my work because I
work day-to-day, I'm I'm out there every day working with
horses and their owners. But the best thing, she felt I
was best placed to help get the information across to the
general public. We decided that we would write a
book. So that was 2018.
And then life got a little bit in the way.
And there was I got divorced and it was COVID.
And then we really sadly, we lost my dad unexpectedly.
And so sorry. Thank you.
And one of the last conversations that I had with my
dad was that I said that I felt that it was time to 2021.
I felt it was time to get going with the book again, the book
that I was going to write with Sue Dyson and he was and his
women's sports always at least my work.
And my mom continues doing this book within her work.
Anyway, two weeks, dad died a week later.
And two weeks after he died, I got a call from the publishers,
from my publishers saying, did I have another book in the
pipeline? And I just, well, it's just if
you believe in these things, you believe in these things, that's.
Given me shivers. So that's really sent shivers
down my spine in a, in a wonderful way, you know, doesn't
that feel soundipitous and, and, and actually must have been a, a
great comfort to you at the time.
So much, so much. I am so lucky in my life.
So yes, I got in touch with Sue and that that was it.
We started creating Harmony Source for sure.
Turns out that for for the people reading the book, it's
much better that we had those few years in the way because
actually there's much more research has come out along the
way. So we were able to share a lot
more than we would have done if we'd published the books.
That's great. Wow.
And you are ramping up at this time of year, Sue, because
spring, all of us who adore our horses and want to get back into
training and playing and working alongside our horses are
thinking about their muscle, their fitness, their strength,
their suppleness. And of course we've had and
we're currently still just in that tail end of the very long,
dreary winter, some terrible weathers.
Do you find it common that this time of year suddenly a lot of
horse owners and riders kind of sit up and think we need to
regain some of that lost muscle and strength?
I guess that for a lot of people that is the case.
And there's plenty of people that back off a bit over winter
because the weather and that snow that we had a couple of
weeks ago, that was really not conducive to owning a horse.
And I've found so many horses that have been saw after that
that have slipped or slid or they don't notice slow down or
they don't seem to notice, slow down when they're out in the
room. I'm very lucky that with, with
my clients, a lot of them. So my, my philosophy is
preventative and proactive and working with performance.
So I think, yeah, my philosophy is very much in keeping an eye
on things all the time. So I encourage my owners and my
clients and my followers to do daily or weekly checks with
their horses. And I can share a couple of
those with you if you're interested.
It's kind of an awareness. It's about listening to your
horse continue. And that's what harmony is
horsemanship is about. It's what brain kind of training
is about. It's about listening to your
horse on an ongoing basis, right, rather than just because
you've got something coming up. And it's about changing our
mindset, isn't it? Not looking at schedules, like
you say, not thinking spring is the time of year for this and
summer is when we do that and competitions are here or
trainings here and actually using those techniques and those
exercises throughout the year and throughout the seasons.
There is so much to think about with the care of our horses,
whether it be diet and nutrition, exercise, weight and
fitness. But Sue, how can we bring a bit
of physio and massage into our own tool boxes when we're not
professionals like yourselves? Well, that made me think about
physio and massage for ourselves, not just for our
horses. And of course that is hugely
important because I am a human physician.
I do treat humans and horses and my work is about listening
carefully and learning all the time and being curious about
what's going on, and that is about our own bodies as well as
our horses. How can we bring?
So if I just share. With you, 3 simple exercises
that you can do as a daily check and there's something that you
might be doing already. So most of us are grooming our
horses. But grooming your horse, one of
the most common reasons that I'll have a new client come is
that they will notice that the horse is flinched when they're
grooming, especially when they're brushing his back.
So notice what your horse's reactions are when you're
grooming him. Is anything changing?
Beta stretches, Carrot stretches.
Can your horse bend as far in One Direction as he can in the
other? So carrot stretches are a great
exercise as an assessment tool. So can he bend both ways, but
also as a preventative or a treatment tool to ensure that he
can bend equally both ways? And then moving your horse on a
tight turn around you in both directions is a really good
health check. So just asking him to step his
hind legs under and see if his front legs step over.
And can he turn equally in both directions?
So just the left hind step under just as much as the right hind
steps under. So that's some really three
really simple exercises that you can do to keep an eye on the
horse, grooming him and noticing his reactions, doing the carrot
stretches, can he bend with both ways and then doing a tight turn
kind of step under equally in both directions.
And then in terms of exercises that we can do the help and
again, the carrot stretches, as I said, they help to ensure the
hand bend equally both ways in hand work is something that I
think is massively underutilized.
And that might be in hand work in terms of developing
communication or developing flexibility.
So it might be some bending work, some natural work, or it
might be in hand work as in warming the horse up before you
get on him. So we think that we just get on
our horse and then we do the warming up when we get on the
horse. And I always say that that's a
bit like putting a backpack on before I go and make a cup of
tea in the morning. So it's just a little bit of
warming up before we get on the horse so and we can warm
ourselves up. So whether you've got a lane
that you can walk on or whether it's just in the arena walk and
trot your horse in hand, you'll be warmed up.
It means that you get more out of the session.
And then the other thing I'm going to say obviously, but it's
only obviously if you know me, I'm a huge fan of massage.
I've been interested in massage for as long as I can remember.
I qualified as a human massage therapist in my early 20s and
I've actually got a free mini massage master class.
Go onto my Facebook page and you'll find a link in my in my
bio, my bio and on the Facebook page.
But yeah, massage, massage, grooming, just getting your
hands on your horse. There's a there's a natural
healing that comes just from being with your horse and that
you can give to your horse and spending time with him.
I don't really have the words to explain it.
We don't really have the science to explain it, but it's there.
You've got your own horses, you spend time with yours, just
being there with them. I was going to ask you, Sue, if
you can try and put it into words why you think it is such a
healing experience. Not just physically for the
horse who might be getting a massage from from their much
loved owner and and friend, but also for the two of you.
Why is that such a a bonding moment do you think, for us?
I was just going to say there it is very much for the two of you.
It is for us as well As for them.
We spend our lives being so busy.
I mean, it's it's a badge of honor now, isn't it?
I'm busy, How are you? I'm really busy.
And horses don't live their lives that way.
And it's not healthy. We all know it's not healthy for
us to be that busy. And so I think taking that time
to slow down when, when I'm teaching the massage course, I,
I have a horse, massage horse in this course, which is online and
I taught in person for many years.
And I used to say it's like meditating or if you struggle to
meditate, for some people, it's music puts your favorite music
on, preferably not rock music. But if that's what it does it
for you and it's about being here in this moment, I say to
people, leave your baggage at the gate.
Leave your your worries, your thoughts, your stresses.
Leave them at the gate. And I think I was listening to
one of, I can't remember which one of your guests it was, but
they talked about that. They talked about that they'd
gone in and they tried to do this stuff with the horse and it
hadn't worked. And so they'd come back out,
left their baggage at the gate, and then I think it might have
been happy, Sir, and then gone back in.
I think it's being there in the moment and the horse recognizes
that as we spend a lot of time working towards happiness.
That's kind of a buzz phrase, isn't it?
You're supposed to be happy. And I've spent a lot of time
thinking about this. I do, I do loads of reading.
Well, I do loads of listening, actually spend a lot of time in
my car driving to clients. So it's audio books and podcasts
and more audio books and more podcasts.
And I, I try to think of contentment rather than
happiness. And when I think of contentment,
I try to visualize it because that's what so much of this
stuff says that you should do is you should visualize it.
And I visualize the horse grazing in the field or just
sneezing in the field because they're just there or, or
sneezing in the wild each other. But but they're just there and
they're not thinking about what's coming next.
They're not thinking about what they've just done.
They're not rushing around. And I think that the massage
allows us that that connection, that feeling like holding
someone's hands gives you a totally different feeling to
just standing beside that person.
Putting your hands on your horse gives you a totally different
feeling to just standing beside you.
Sorry, I'm walking. No, you're not.
You are taking us on a wonderful journey that we all need to
hear. And and like you say, a reminder
because we all are juggling careers and relationships and
families potentially and maybe other pets and, and busy
commitments of life. And how often do we actually
slow down and breathe and think, I'm going to prioritize grooming
a massage as much as I prioritize exercising my horse
or training my horse or whatever it might be.
Feed it, You know, we're always thinking about do we need to get
in an extra hey load, particularly at the minute?
Do we need to, you know, go to the feed store and stock up on
XYZ? But actually, we need to
prioritize up the list that time to just be with our horse as
much as all the other jobs that are waiting to be done.
And I think it's OK to sit and cry with your horse as well, or
to laugh with your horse. I think it's OK to, to just to,
to tell him about your day and to just be there with those
emotions and I don't know, share your life with him in that
moment. I had a, a client once she was,
she was studying with intelligent horsemanship and she
was doing one of her a study. She had to do a study and she
sat in the field for three days. She put a tent up and she was
dry and she could sleep, but she stayed in the field for three
days and just watched the comings and goings and the
family still continued to do what they did with their horses.
And so it was really fascinating.
I'll never forget her sort of her expression when she said it,
that the the peace and the quiet of the 23 hours of the day.
And then there's sudden madness when someone appears and
prevailed and there's always talking and there's always
doing, and then back to the peace and the quiet again.
And I think we can be with our horses to help us to find those
moments, to help us to make those moments.
They're like great way of doing it.
And how interesting that we start talking about the massage
toolkit and immediately it becomes about both us and our
horse and that partnership and that bond and the relationship
between us as well. Where can we start, Sue, in
terms of massage? Because the one thing that I
love to do is grooming and laying my hands on my horse and,
you know, and feeling their outline and having that skin to
skin connection. But also at the same time, there
is that worry that we're going to maybe do something wrong if
we you know, I'm a terrible mass who's on humans, I've been told
absolutely diabolical. So almost that sort of I then
think about horses and I think, Oh no, I'm probably giving them
the terrible back massage. So where do we begin, Sue?
So I would. Say just begin with stroking,
but before that, begin with slowing down.
The horse is going to give you feedback in the moment and
they're going to give you honest feedback.
So if they don't like what you're doing, then you're going
to know about it. And that's where, again, when we
come with harmonious horsemanship and brain pain or
training, it's about listening to our horses.
It's about being curious, being curious rather than being
certain and, and just watching, listening and and learning.
So slow down and just stroke. So I would start with your
massage with just running your hands all over your horse.
But in my, in my horse massage horse owners online course, I
talk about, for example, a massage move on the horse's
neck. And I talk about how to do the
move teachers do it on a person first or on yourself 1st and
then how to do it on the horse. And I'll talk about the anatomy
that underlies it. So you can get into all of this
thinking stuff, but I also talk about how long to take to do the
move. And you can take however long
you like. But I always find it easier to
learn things if I've got, so think about it as being the
Jamie Oliver of horse massages. Like you've got this ABC
structure first if you've got the ABC to follow, and then you
can deviate from that afterwards.
And I talk about taking 4 seconds to get from the pole to
their shoulder, but go at least as slow as that, if not slower,
and go over the whole horse. And the more sensitive that the
horse is, the more reactive that your horse is, the softer and
the slower that you need to be. So that's my continual on the
horse massage course. The continual reframe is slow
down and go more softly. But horses can feel a family
landing on them. But they don't need needs.
Massage doesn't need to be painful.
It doesn't need to be digging in and pushing at those muscles.
We're working, particularly the type of massage that I am
teaching is working more on the nervous system than it.
We're not thinking about going in and squashing those muscles
and changing those blood vessels.
We naturally want to be in a healthy state.
Our bodies and our horses bodies naturally want to be in a
healthy state when they're not in a healthy state the vast
majority of the time. That's because something has
happened to create that. So with us, the most common
issue that I see as physio is repetitive strain stuff.
It's and I don't necessarily mean injury, but postural stuff,
shoulders aching, the slumps and blumps of our computers or legs
aching cause we've run too far or.
But we we will heal from all of these things if we can allow the
healing to happen. So it's more that we impede the
healing from happening and the nervous system is really
important in triggering that healing.
So if we can release restrictions, if we can make
sure that joints are moving as they should be, if we can make
sure that the circulation is flowing as it should be, then
the nervous system will encourage the body to return to
a healthy system. So when when you're stroking
your horse, you're firing up that nervous system and when
you're in the moment with that horse, like meditating with that
horse or dancing with that horse, like you're going to slow
dance with that horse. If you want to think about it
like music or, but you're there in that moment where that horse,
nothing else matters and you're wanting to offer Wellness to
that horse, then the the horse's nervous system will naturally
tune into that. So softer and slower, softer and
slower, softer and slower. I say to people, what is it that
you do for work? And they've got this like pissy,
I'm a lawyer or I'm a it's just like, yeah, I could tell.
Just slow down. If I'm a younger, I'm much more
likely to go slowly and softly. I bet you can tell almost what
they do by their energy, can't you?
By people's energy? Yeah, Absolutely.
Yeah. And imagine also going out to
clients horses, you must be working with both the human and
the horse. Do you kind of try and encourage
this practice and, and try and get people to slow down their
energy and and calm as well during the session, even when
you're working with just the horse?
Yeah, when it's me and an owner and a horse, then absolutely
we'll be, we'll be having a chat and we'll we'll hopefully be
there in the moment with that horse.
I try, I treat every horse and every owner as an individual and
I very much treat the horse and owner as a partnership.
And to me it really is about a partnership and it's all it's
also about the team. And I think that that's, it's
knowing what support that person has got around them, what
support that horse has got around them, what the
environment is. There's so many different
factors come into working with a horse and a rider and brain pain
or training. One of the key.
I had 27 guest contributors to brain pain or training we had
done in in harmonious horsemanship.
We've got case studies, real life case studies which I can
share a bit about if you want. And we've got guest
contributors. We've got lots of different
organisations, barriers and vets and physios and nutritionist
Claire MacLeod, I know she was on, she's in.
She's great for harmonious horsemanship.
And the threads are connecting, aren't they?
Isn't it amazing how each guest without even knowing?
And for the listeners who are, you know, intrigued, thinking,
oh, were you just going through each other's address books and
e-mail lists? No, you know, we, we all find
each other separately and then everyone seems to be connected
in some way. And it it's amazing how people
do link back and episodes link back without even planning it
sometimes, which is lovely. Oh, absolutely.
So yes. And the team is a is really
important. So when I'm working with the
horse and rider, I'm thinking about the horse as an
individual, the rider as an individual, those as a
partnership, and then also the team all around them.
Can you talk to you? Just Sue sort of teased us with
a transformation and a case study.
Could you tell us about one of the horses that you've worked
with that's really stayed with you and that really has gone
through a transformation through massage and physio?
So I share a case study from harmonious horsemanship.
So it's a case study of the importance of listening to the
horse and Alice and Star were their first cases.
I think there's I think there's 11 case studies in the book.
And star, she's absolutely stunning Chestnut there.
I I worked with I met Alice quite late in my journey and
Alice had star from very from pole and then wanted obviously
to to back her and work her and really struggled with scars
behaviour. It was very up and down could be
very explosive at times and she had different trainers work with
her and different vets look at her.
She even at one point had the X-ray scars back and they found
kissing spine and the vet said that it wasn't relevant.
Alice kept saying this isn't right, this isn't right.
Eventually she found a trainer who took star on and within a
week said this isn't right. I think the kissing spine is
causing the problem and Alice agreed to have stars back nerve
blocked and there was a complete change in the north.
Totally different there. It's a, it's a reminder of
something that I see far more often than I hope I will in the
future. And everyone is, everyone is
doing their best. And I say this so often.
We are all doing the best that we can with the knowledge and
the tools and the experience that we have at this moment.
And I look back at things that I did 10 years ago and think, Oh
my gosh, why didn't I do XYZ? And I hope that in 10 years
time, I will look back at doing what I'm doing now and I will
go, Oh my gosh, why didn't I do XYZ?
Because I want to continually improve.
And what I see a lot is riders blaming themselves, riders or
coaches blaming themselves or blaming their equipment or
blaming their instructor or blaming the circus or blaming
the fact that the horse hadn't been turned out for long enough
or blaming the feed off. And it, I think it, it's often
emotionally easier to blame all of these things, which in theory
we can change. Changing ourselves is quite
difficult, but we can buy a new saddle, we can use a new feed,
we can turn out for longer. And I think it's often
emotionally easier to look at that stuff than it is to think
that there might be something wrong with our horse, that our
horse might be in some pain or discomfort.
And that's where the ridden horse pain Instagram and
harmonious horsemanship came in. So horses are athletes,
especially ridden horses are athletes.
And you wouldn't expect any athletes not to have any sore
spots. My brother runs in Iron Men
crazy, but there is absolutely no chance that he's not going to
have any sore spots if I poke and pod his muscles.
I do not do iron then I am. It's not my thing.
But I can tell you that there is absolutely no chance that I
wouldn't have some sore spots if you poke and pod at me.
And I do have myself treated on a regular basis.
I get myself treated at least every four to six weeks because
I believe in prevention and proactive health and well-being
and performance. So I wouldn't expect a horse,
particularly a horse who's working as an athlete, not to
have any sore spots. But the key is in how that horse
feels about that. It's not that we're expecting
them to feel 100% comfortable. They'll have a tight muscle here
or there, especially if they've done a bit more the day before
or but the key is in how that horse feels about it.
And that's where the magic of Sue Dicings work, That that's
the message that we really wanted to get across with the
work. That's kind of where my where
I'm trying to, to go with my work back.
A kind of big goal is that I said by 20-30 that everyone in
the equestrian world will recognise that pain and
behaviour in horses are linked because horses can only
communicate their pain or their discomfort through their
behaviour or their performance. And so often they're labeled as
naughty or difficult or awkward or lazy.
And what matters is how the horse feels about what we're
asking him to do. So one horse might be perfectly
fine walking truck hacking, but you ask him to do a Prelim
dressage test that includes some cans on a 20 minutes circle, and
it's too much for him. And another horse.
I might find a horse that's got quite a lot of muscle spasm when
I'm assessing him, but actually when you're watching work, he's
forward, he's balanced, he's straight, he's got his ears
pricked, might come across another horse.
But really in terms of when I'm palpating, when I'm doing limb
range of movement, when I've been spinal range and assessing
that horse, sorry, palpating means feeling through the
muscles, but I can't really find anything of note.
But that horse, he goes to the back of the stable when he sees
his saddle, he pulls a face. When you go to put the bridle
on, when you ask gets to where the rider gets on and asks him
to walk forward, his reluctance would go.
He might be tripping or napping or backing off.
And just because I can't easily find anything as a physio that
does, I can't just say, well, that horse is OK.
What matters is how the horse feels about what we're asking
him to do. And what are we looking for,
Sue, in that moment in terms of reactions?
You talk about the reactions when we're massaging, when we're
feeling, when a horse is comfortable and at ease.
What do we expect to see in a massage?
And equally if they're sort of tight or in pain.
So when we're when the horse is comfortable and relaxed, then I
think of like that image that I have of the content horse in the
field. So he might be munching on his
hay and he might be to massage him while he's eating his hay.
Or you might be just having tied up in the the stable or you
might just be out in the field with him.
But if he's comfortable, he's just he's going to look content
and relax. And Sue has done a study, but
she's done a study on what a comfortable horse looks like in
his freedom work. And you can translate that
across a bit to the ground work as well.
But he will be that content, relaxed horse.
He will be continuing to do the things that he would normally be
doing as a horse. The horse that is less
comfortable. He might be trying to move away
from you, he might put his ears back, he might swish his tail,
he might swing his head around towards you.
And that's so often I hear when the horse is given that
reaction. It's usually when I'm at the
yard and someone else on the yard, someone that I'm not
involved with, is perhaps attacking their horse up.
And you see the horse swings, swing his head around for them
and just put his ears back at them and they just tell him stop
being so naughty. Or you get called being a Moody
mare. It's communication.
The horse is trying to communicate.
So yeah, you'll see the sort of negative communication you also
can feel in the muscles depending on how often you put
your hands on your horse. You think the more often put
your hands on the horse, the better you get to feel what
normal is for your horse. So the muscle that feels good
kind of feels a bit like plasticine under your hands, if
anyone remembers playing with plasticine.
And then a muscle that is not feeling so good will feel more
like a block of wood. Basically the muscle feels
harder. And depending on where you are
in the on the horse, some bits are going to feel harder and
some bits are going to feel softer depending on how close
the bone is to the skin. Because mostly if the bone is is
not overlaid by thick muscle, if the bone is very close to the
skin, then it's going to feel harder in that area.
But as I say, the more often you get your hands on the horse, the
easier comes to feel. And then the other thing that's
I think really easy is what's called fasciculation and the
place that people most often notice it, they call it horses
being Tipoli in their girth area.
So if you've ever seen a horse that's particularly in its or
felt or particularly its girth area, as you stroke down that
girth area, the muscle kind of. It's.
Twitches on your skin and people say the horse is ticklish.
That is a sign of irritation. That's a sign of the horse is
not completely comfortable and you can get that in other areas
on the horse as well. Ear shy is another one.
Horses shouldn't naturally be air shy in my opinion.
Everything that I say here today is my opinion because that's all
that I can give. All I'm trying to do is share
the knowledge and experience that I have gained over the
years. But I it's one of my one of my
soapbox things is air shy horses.
They shouldn't be air shy, and if they are air shy, it's
usually because there is some muscle spasm or some bones, a
phony misalignment or something isn't right at the pole.
And in the vast majority of cases, this can be improved.
Not always fully resolved. Depends on how long it's been
there, depends on what's causing it.
In the vast majority of cases it can be improved.
So when you put your hands under their tail, then that's often a
sign that there's tightness in the hamstrings.
So there's several of these. I've got a, another online
course, it's called the Horse Health Check course.
And there's 10 things that you can check on like this that help
you to recognize that that's an area that perhaps you could
spend some more time working on or slow down more on it.
Yeah. I for one, will be learning how
to massage because don't we all feel those who look after horses
or own their own horses that we feel more empowered when we can
take action. If a horse is looking a bit
uncomfortable or not too happy, instead of, you know, originally
panicking and ringing the vets or and getting the professionals
in, which of course we need to do in, in, you know, emergency
scenarios. But if it's just a slight bit of
discomfort, how empowering do we feel empowered?
Do we feel when we can take over and try and help our horse in
the first instance? Is that what you're hoping, Sue?
Is that what you want your clients to feel you know able to
do? What we want is for people to
feel empowered. And I think that the thing that
allows us to feel empowered is knowledge.
And putting our hands on our horses in on a more regular
basis and in specific ways means that we have more awareness of
what's normal for our horse, which then enables us to know
when things are not normal. And then we know when to call
someone. And then if we've got
professionals involved, we can give them a call and we can say,
I've noticed this. Is this something that you
should come and look at or is it something that I can do with
myself? And when you've got this team
around your horse that you've all got a relationship together,
then you'll be able to do that. You'll be able to say, is this
something you need to see today or is this something that we can
wait six weeks with? And the same with the written
work, they can recognize when something isn't how they feel
that it should be and they've got a language that they can use
to communicate with the professionals.
So absolutely. And I think, like you say, being
able to take action. And I find it quite easy to get
anxious about stuff and to worry about what's coming up.
And I am so much better if I can do something.
Since before we've recorded this, I've been out for a walk
because if I could keep my feet moving, if I could do something,
it stopped me getting in such space.
And the massage enables us to be with a horse, to be in this
moment. It brings us back to the
presence and helps to ease some of that anxiety.
But yeah, I think the empowerment is the knowledge.
And that's, I speak to so many people and everyone is amazing.
Yeah. So it's I think that's what's
empowering is the knowledge, because then we can make
educated decisions. And that's what makes the
difference, the educated decisions.
And I love the fact that guests talk about their online
communities, their social media followers and the wonderful
comments that get, they get the, the hints and tips, the bits of
advice, the gems, the bits of gold that we all learn along the
way, whether we're professionals or not in the equestrian world.
Because when we are day-to-day in the horse community, there's
a lot of judgment, isn't there? There's a lot of negativity
sometimes or gossip at different yards or, you know, within
competition. Well, and actually you get quite
a jaded opinion of of equestrian and we all know that, you know,
many, you know, professionals we speak to farriers might say or
vets might say, oh, you know, yards could be quite clicky.
It could be quite a difficult environment.
We love here at Curious Question to talk about the online
communities that are being built and the friendships that are
being made across the world. You know, not all equestrians
and not all people are the same. And actually you can find
kindred spirits, perhaps not at your local yard or down the
road, but actually across the world.
And you can all connect and share stories and help and
advice. And that's what it's about,
isn't it? Absolutely.
And I say again and again that we are all doing the best that
we can given the knowledge, tools and experience that we've
got in this moment. And we all would hope that we
will be doing better in the future.
We're all here because of our horses.
We're all here because we love our horses and we're all doing
the best that we can by them. And also just a reminder that if
you are out there massaging your horse, being in the moment and
content with that horse at that time, then you're not able to be
putting judgmental comments off on Facebook or any other social
media planet. Just be with.
Yourself, stop shattering and go do more with your horse.
Yes, stop spreading hate and go and be with your horse.
I love it. You know, maybe that's what we
should comment next time the trolls strike.
Well, then the last time that you spend with the horse and
what you want to spend is to spread the love anyway on it.
So that's what they do for you. Oh yeah.
And Sue, tell us, how often should we massage and when
should we massage? Because we've certainly covered
the ground where we've got some, maybe a spare hour, maybe a day
off to spend with our horse. But on a busy week, how often
should we prioritize massage? And should we be massaging
before or after exercise? And how many times a week?
I'm going to cop out a bit and say that it does depend on the
individual and that ideally your professional for the
professional or the physical therapist that you work with
with your horse will advise you on that.
But as AI was going to say, as a general guide, ideally if you
can get your hands on your horse at least once a week, I think
that that helps you to recognize the normal over the abnormal.
In terms of before or after, it depends on what it is that
you're trying to achieve. If you want to warm your horse
up before your work isn't stiff, then you're going to be it best
to do some massage before if you want.
If you've been working hard and you want him to be more
comfortable afterwards and massaging him after.
How long you massage for it's going to depend.
If you are working to settle the muscles spasm related to causing
the horse to the ear shy for example, you might just focus 3
minutes on one particular area twice a day or more.
If it's the massage that I teach in my course is about 45 minutes
ish. So what I say for that one ideal
is say you rode your horse six days a week then you might do
that on the one day off. I think the most important thing
probably is being able to be in that moment when you do it.
So trying to massage your horse whilst the rest of the yard is
being turned out is probably not the right time.
Trying to massage whilst feed is being dished out is probably not
the right time. So I think probably, yeah, it's
just about what's right for you Angela.
But yeah, ask your team. I love it.
So I love that once a week is enough and actually is enough to
make a difference. That's good to know because
sometimes you can kind of say, oh, you know, should I be as, as
we're often told, we should be doing this three times a week
and that four times a week. So that's great to know.
Also good to know you almost can't massage too much.
So if you wanted to massage before exercise and after, if
you've got the time, then that's also really good to know.
And thirdly, I love that you always mention the environment
because if you've ever been speaking to our listeners now
for a sports massage, which previously have years ago when
I, you know, had a sore back, the environment is always
thought about, isn't it? With human clients, there might
be candles. It's a beautiful sort of setup.
But I love that you keep coming back to this for our horses as
well, to make sure that that is there in place for them.
They may be in their stable or their paddock or their field as
they always are, but making sure that it's not a frenetic time in
in the yard schedule, making sure you yourself are feeling
relaxed and comfortable, ready, ready for massage and trying to
bring a bit of that luxury to our horses lives as well.
Absolutely. And also remembering that
massage is not the only thing. And if you've got a broken
ankle, it doesn't matter how much massage you have on your
back, it's not going to help your ankle if your horse has got
a badly fitting saddle or if the barrier is, is something not
right with what's going on with the barrier.
If the feed is not right, it doesn't matter how much massage.
It doesn't mean to say that you can't do it, but you're not
it's, it's not a fix all. It's a part of the whole.
It's a jigsaw piece in in the puzzle.
And so you mentioned your mission and we're going to delve
into that a bit more in a moment, but just rewind for us.
When did you become so passionate about massage and
about physio? Ah.
So I've, I've always loved massage, but I think that in
terms of linking the pain and behaviour in horses, there's a
particular horse where it just clicked for me.
So I was working as an intelligent horsemanship
recommended trainers, working with horses with behavioral
issues, and I was actually studying equine touch.
I listened to your, The Curious question equine touch piece as
well. That seems like so many years
ago. And I went to see a horse who
had a history of bolting. It was freezing.
It was in Berkshire and it had this big open place and they
popped the horse on the lunge and it just on what?
On what? I didn't have any physio
qualifications. I was a BHSAI and I was working
as an intelligent horse and sheep recommended things.
I was just working on the behavior.
But they put him on the lunge because I just thought it was
sensible to look at and on one side, on one rein I could see
both sides of his quarters and on the other rein I couldn't
really see either side. So it was like he sloped on one
side for his quarters and not on the other side.
I didn't know what I was I was talking about, but it just
didn't look right to me. I was like, surely it should
look the same on both brains. So I said to the owner that she
needed to get him physically checked and then give me a call
to come back and have a look and we'd see what we could do about
the behavior. And so she had physical checks
done and apparently the horse was sorted and she got me to go
back and I popped them on the London and I could see exactly
the same thing going on. And I just thought this isn't
right, this something's being missed.
Horses are not being listened to.
If you've got a behaviour happening and a horse is showing
that level of asymmetry, surely we've got to look at the
behaviour first. So that's what then led me to
going and qualifying as a physiast.
I qualified as a human physio first at King's College in
London, and then I worked in the NHS and then I went in, studied
as an animal physique. So I'm now at RAMPA, just the
Association of Childhood Physios and Animal Therapy and the
Register of Animal Muscular School Practitioners.
So yeah, I can still remember, I can still feel the cold that I
felt when I was seeing that horse and just realizing that,
yeah, the links between pain and behavior were needed to be
better recognized. And we love that you're on this
mission to change that ideology that horses are naughty or
cheeky or, you know, taking the Mickey in certain instances.
And actually there's pain behind that.
There could be pain. But why do you think it's going
to take until 2030 for people to get this concept and to
understand this instead of labelling naughty and difficult
horses? I think that was because I was
reading one of my self development books and it said
that we had to have SMART goals so they had to be measured.
So I had to put a date and I couldn't put 2026 because it's
not going to happen by then. But why are?
We not there now, Sue, why do you think it would take so long?
The conversations are starting to open up the research and the
science is there thanks to you know so many incredible
practitioners and also those like yourself Sue, that are out
there talking about this and Sue Dyson too.
But why do you think the industry still slaps these
labels on naughty horses? Like you just said that we're
talking about it. It is a conversation.
I mean a question isn't is hugely traditional and I don't
have the answers to that. I do know that what I thought I
knew, I didn't think I knew everything, but effectively I
thought I knew everything 10 years ago.
I don't think I know everything. That's not what I mean.
But we are all developing. In 10 years time, I will know so
much more than I know now, and I think that we're all in
different places on our journeys.
I hope that we're going the right way.
I feel as though the conversation is going the way
that I believe that it should. But then this is only my
opinion. I believe that we're heading
towards more ethical horsemanship, towards a better
life for horses and towards a better life than humans.
And when you look at the, the, the difficulties and the traumas
with it within the human world, look at, at us as adults, look
at children, look at how, how difficult it is getting things.
I'm a mum. I have no idea whether I'm doing
things right by my son. I mean, all I can do is hope and
pray, and I know that I'll have made big mistakes along the way
because that's what we do and we do it with our horses as well.
But our horses don't have the same voice.
But then our babies don't have a voice either.
So I just think it's a continual development and as long as we
are all, wherever we are in our journey, trying to walk a path
towards kindness, more kindness and trying to be curious more
than certain and choosing curiosity over certainty.
I think, yeah, just continually learning, listening deeply.
Then I think that that's that's the right direction.
And I think that everyone, no, I like to think that everyone is
on that journey. Perhaps I'm just an optimist.
I like to immerse myself in the world where people are on that
journey and those that want to join the conversation.
Everyone is welcome. And for those who yet haven't
joined that conversation, Sue, you're on your mission.
What do you think it's going to take to get to that world in
20-30 where every difficult quote UN quote horse is seen as
a horse that has a story to tell, that is in pain and
discomfort that needs to be investigated and helped rather
than move from pillar to post passed on or or worse, How do
you think we get there and what can we do to help?
I think leading by example is the main thing and sharing the
stories of the horses who have come out the other side of the
struggle. Being brave enough to say I made
a mistake, I got that wrong, I shouldn't have pushed my horse
at that point because actually now we know this is what was
going on. I think leading by example in
sharing stories. Sue, thank you so much for those
listening who want to get in touch with you, want to find
your courses that you've mentioned throughout the episode
and find out more about what you're up to.
How do they do that? The website thehorsevizio.co.uk
and the Facebook page The horse Vizio.
And for those listening, please do join our member zone because
we're now going to go behind the scenes with Sue for a listener
Q&A where Sue will be answering some of your questions and we're
going to go into the green room. So please do join us to help us
keep bringing you brilliant guests like Sue.