Horses are always up for things feeling better.
They're a lot more straightforward than humans.
How often do you find yourself arguing against your own
happiness? Like that's such a human thing,
to kind of argue against our happiness.
Horses don't do that. If it feels better, happy days,
I'll go with that. Hello and welcome back to
Curious Equestrian. I'm your host, Anna Louise, and
if you enjoy this podcast, please hit subscribe if you
haven't already so we can keep bringing you a brilliant guest.
Like today, we're welcoming horse trainer Kate Sandel.
Kate has a background in French classical riding, in
horsemanship and in equine sports massage, as well as well
as in human mental health. We're going to be talking to
Kate all about being soft and being sound, how we can use
softness to achieve soundness. We're also going to talk about
who our horses really are, who is in that body, who's in that
spirit and what can we give them in their lives.
Not just thinking about what we want to achieve with our horses.
We're going to talk about some of the amazing mentors in Kate's
life and lots, lots more. As well as delving into what it
means to be a good teacher ourselves, not only as horse
owners, but in terms of looking for instructors that can help us
learn and unlock magical moments with our horses.
Let's dive in, shall we? Kate, welcome to Curious
Equestrian. Hello, very nice to be here.
I want to start by jumping in Kate and get you to talk to us
about the words that you use to sum up your work with horses,
soft and sound. Now we all want our horses to be
sound and to move beautifully and be agile and we all want to
be soft kind horse people. But how do the 2 relate?
Wow, you've gone. You've gone right in for the nub
of it, haven't you? I guess the more time I've spent
with horses, it's so clear that you cannot extract their brain
from their body. And very often my background is
horsemanship and also French classical training.
A lot of the focus ostensibly is on how horses move, how they
balance, their asymmetry, their weight bearing, posture, all of
those things that a horse needs if we want to ride them.
But they're not a push bike, you know, they're also sentient
beings with their own ideas and their own emotional lives and
their own connection or not with us.
And so the soft bit isn't really about us being soft.
I think it's, and it's a funny word, soft because it's got so
many connotations around it. I think it's more about a
horse's okayness in their brain that relates to their okayness
in their body, because horses will do amazing things for
people with less than perfect, less than functional bodies when
their brains are in a good place.
And the more I go on, I've ended up specialising quite a lot in
kind of rehab and supporting horses with physical challenges,
which the French classical work really lends itself to, the more
aware I am that if the horse isn't mentally on side, you're
just doing stuff to them. And that's not to say that you
can't make big changes in their bodies through physical rehab
that doesn't really take into account their emotional
landscape. But I think everything is so
much easier when the horse feels good on the inside about what
you're asking them to do on the outside.
So that's my passion and kind of curiosity.
Wormhole, I guess is knowing that nobody ever is going to be
factory fitted perfect and that there's always going to be
things that we're going to be needing to help a horse with if
we want to ride them. Because that isn't their it's
not what they're evolved to do that how do we bring them
alongside mentally so that they are inspired by the movement
rather than being coerced into doing the movements And this is
AI think that's. That's summed it up beautifully.
It's a really difficult subject to unpick, isn't it?
And very big questions to dive into.
But I do want to ask a ginormous question in that how do you
achieve that without coercion for you when, when you step in
the arena, if we were to be having a lesson with you now,
Kate, how do you achieve that harmony with a horse so that it
does want to be ridden and work alongside us?
Well, I suppose the first thing is developing our objective
awareness around horses, so to try to see who the horse
actually is rather than who we want the horse to be, and
separating out our own stories and our own needs and desires
from who the horse is. Now, I'm pretty honest.
I want to ride horses. I, I have horses at this point
in my life and I may well change because I do enjoy the act of
sitting on them. So I'm not yet at the point
where I feel like it's unethical to ride horses, but where it can
be a struggle for a horse because I actually think horses
are relatively straightforward. And what they want actually
above everything is clarity. But the challenge is for us to
know how to be clear with that horse.
Because each horse rocks up as a individual.
And some of them want you to be very soft.
Some of them want you to be very black and white.
Some of them want you to give them a minute.
Some of them want you to say, actually, let's get on with it
right now. Some of them I'm much more
inspired about moving out in the world.
My newly imported Lucitano is like a different horse out on
Dartmoor than he is in the arena.
Really, the purpose of being out in the world for him inspires a
quality of movement in him that as yet I can't elicit from him
in the arena. So I'm not giving up my idea of
this is my riding horse. I actually brought him because
I, I want to carry on my classical training with him.
But at the moment I'm trying to be led by him to say, OK, if you
are most, you are most purposeful out there in the
world, then how can I build on that rather than trying to make
everything about what I want? So it's a, it's a really tough
call. And I think the first thing is
as a human developing our ability to stand back and
observe the horse without our stuff being attached to it, to
try to work out who is this creature, this unbelievable
creature. Actually, when you think about
what they managed to work out, you know, as a nonverbal herd
based flight animal who is prey, what they agree to is quite
extraordinary. And really, when you sometimes
see what they managed to understand from very confusing,
very complicated, sometimes conflicting information from
people, they are incredible. But I, I guess that would be the
first thing that I tried to get people to do is let's look at
that actual horse that's in front of us and take away my
story about needing to be liked by this horse or why I've bought
this horse or any of these things And try to assess how do
they learn? What do they find interesting?
What provokes curiosity in them? What movement do they enjoy?
Are they a horse that likes things to go slower or does that
cause more worry in them? Are they a horse that likes
movement when they feel anxious so that you can start to show
the horse? I am going to ask you to solve
puzzles with me. You know, that's essentially
what we're doing when we're training horses, isn't it?
Is we're setting them a series of puzzles.
So I'm, I am going to say, look, I've got questions that I'm
going to keep on asking you, but I'm going to try my best to work
out who you are and how you learn and what inspires you so
that I'm not constantly bumping up against a situation that you
don't enjoy. Because this isn't this isn't
who you are. You know, I'm misjudging who you
are. So, and when we find ourselves
in interesting times, when you look on the Internet at the
moment, there's kind of a huge call for non escalating pressure
in relation to relationship to horses, entirely consent based,
entirely trust based, whatever that means.
You know, there's a there's a lot of language out there around
horses, but essentially what we are trying to do is train an
animal that actually is what it is.
And so I suppose it's how do we do it in a way that makes best
sense to them, that causes them Least Concern, that allows them
to feel really confident that we're going to allow them to
work things out, that they're not going to get in trouble for
not working things out. And that we are trying to see,
is this because you don't understand this?
Is this because you're in pain? Is this because you can't do
this? Or is it very often because I'm
a confusing human that's giving conflicting system, you know,
signals and asking you to go at the same time as I'm asking you
to slow? So yeah, that's in a not very
nutshelly nutshell what I think about it.
And that's exactly what we want on curious question because
immediately that's unlocked so many trails of thought.
Kate and I love that you mention actually does this horse enjoy
its work? Does this horse want to be the
horse that you've bought it for, do you think?
I mean, listening to you talk about understanding the horse in
front of us, you know, we go to look at horses, don't we, when
we go to buy them and you have a checklist of you must look for
this and you must look for that and you must get a vet check and
et cetera, et cetera. But do you think that actually
people that are taking on a horse in their life, they need
to be more flexible in terms of a lot of horses are being passed
from pillar to post because they aren't the dressage horse they
turned out to be or they aren't. You know, they don't enjoy the
endurance, right? Or they're not suited to show
jumping. Do you think actually owners
have a responsibility to actually look at what the horse
wants to do instead? I think there's two things there
yes and I think we need to be much, much more honest about who
we are. That's where the rub occurs is
if we go looking for I want this height and this colour and this
skill set, you know, and to have won this many rosettes, but
we're not standing back and thinking, but what do Ioffer in
return? You know, what life am I
actually able to give a horse and really what is my riding
ability and my interest levels? So I on the podcast that I do
with my friend Kathleen, we were both talking about buying new
horses recently because we've both done this and I went
through a right old brain fangle of what I really want is I
really want a Lucitano stallion. That would be the thing, you
know, that because I want to go and do working equitation and,
you know, maybe then I could really progress on that field.
And then I had to stand back and look at.
Hang on a second. Who are you really?
You spend most of your life cantering out over Dartmoor.
Your horses live in a herd. They mostly live out.
The truth is you don't travel all over the country competing.
Why do you suddenly think that that's going to happen?
Now it's not to say that doesn't happen for people sometimes, but
in the main, who we are when we buy the horse, we're probably
going to be that person in a year's time.
So it makes more sense to buy a horse who meets us more where we
are now, maybe with a bit of potential for learning and
growth and development. But rather than thinking, oh, I
suspect in a couple of years time I'm going to be wanting to
jump, you know, massive cross country tracks all the time,
when right now what I'm actually doing is the occasional hunter
trial. It makes a lot more sense and
it's a lot fairer to the horse to try to buy a horse that you
can offer something that matches who they are.
So when I went to Portugal to look, there was 1 incredibly
fancy horse who was already, you knew he was talent on legs.
And then the horse I bought was the one that when we went out
for a hack, I thought, oh, this horse loves this.
Like as soon as we got out the arena and we're out in the
world, he totally came to life and we had such a nice time
together. And I thought what I actually
need is a sensibly minded, good-natured horse who likes
exploring over talent. You know, for me that really is
more important. So there's that on the one side.
And then I think there is also the honesty.
Sometimes you don't know a horse until you get them home.
And we used to run a project here for young people who would
come up and do stuff with horses and the land and that kind of
thing. And it wasn't therapeutic.
It was maybe equine assisted learning.
And we bought a horse who was a big heavy cob that we thought,
oh, he'll be brilliant for young people's first experiences of
sitting on. And he's got a lovely long mane
and tail. So he loved to be groomed and
stuff and he absolutely hated it.
He did not like being pampered with at all.
Like this is worst thing. Didn't like logging people
round. And then one day we did a horse
boarding session. I mean, when I look back, I
think my, I'm not sure our insurance actually did cover
that, which was we had some harness.
We did know somebody who knew how to drive.
So we taught him how to drive a bit.
And then kids hang on to the back while they stood on a
skateboard. And he absolutely loved it.
It was like, this is what I want to do.
So he went off to a logging home where he was delighted because
that actually was who he was. So I'd say 70% of the time when
things go amiss between a person and a horse, it's probably
because the person misjudged who they were and what they could
offer. They were very much thinking
about what they wanted from a horse, not maybe so much
thinking about what they could offer a horse.
And then there's 30% of the time where it just is a mismatch and
you didn't know that until you got the horse.
And so then sometimes you have to be adaptable with that horse.
Like the youngster that I was describing that I've just
imported. Whenever we can get out of the
arena, we are because he's so much happier.
He's much more content, much more interested when we're out
and about. So I am having to compromise my
desire to further my schooling, which I love, I'm having to
compromise on. But sometimes there is a point
as well where you just have to say I can't be flexible enough
without it starting to feel like I might be resentful towards my
horse, and that's no good. So sometimes your horse just
needs to go and be somewhere else with somebody else and that
could be the kindest thing you could do, which we find really
hard. I think particularly in the UK,
we have a home for life kind of mentality and it's great to
start like that. And it's great to kind of commit
to the things I've just described.
You know, taking an an honest inventory of who I am, trying to
come up with a very honest list of what I actually need from a
horse. But also then thinking I could
be 20 years, a long time miserable and this horse could
be if we're actually just a mismatch.
It's so interesting, isn't it, about getting the partnership
right. And of course you, you did nod
to the fact that whilst that is a ridden partnership, that's
where the the problems occur, isn't it?
If someone has space and time for a, a herd that you know can
be unridden or they can leisure ride, pleasure ride, whatever it
might be without the pressures or the expectations, almost
those problems dissipate, don't they?
But whilst we buy horses for the purpose of of needing them to be
ridden and and to perform in some way, that's where that kind
of toing and froing comes and and the problems have to be
ironed out. Yeah, I think most horses, if
they get the opportunity to live out with friends in an
interesting place, that will do them.
You know, actually most horses are as long as they have, you
know, friends, freedom and forage, they're fine.
As you say, where the rob occurs is when we get involved and say
I would like you to do these things that entail me being on
your back. So that's where we have to be
truthful with our selves about that really, don't we?
And if we don't have space to just stack up many contented
companion horses, then it's worth really taking the time and
sometimes you know, with your instructor or your vet or kind
of trusted professionals to, to do an assessment of who actually
am I and what have I got to offer.
And I love that because you've given almost a whole new chapter
in A Buyer's Guide to finding your next horse about looking at
that horse's personality and what you're offering them to
actually take a step back and actually take the spotlight off
you and what you want as the human that's going to ride.
And actually think, what am I offering this horse?
What is this horse going to bring?
Who is the horse, the personality of the character?
What do they enjoy? And I think that is a wonderful
approach to start any partnership.
And the more you were talking, Kate, I was thinking the more it
does sound like matchmaking and in the way that we think about
relationships. But of course having a horse is
another relationship, but isn't it in our life?
And actually by calling them a horse in a way puts a barrier.
It is another, you know, soul to soul relationship.
You could spend 30 years with that animal, you know, and like
in so the situation that I'm in, I live with my horses and we
live in very close proximity. I spend more time with them
because I'm single as well with than any human.
So they're pretty intense, those relationships.
And like you say, it's, I always think it's so weird if you went
on a date, you wouldn't use that one date to then make a decision
about whether you were going to marry that person.
But with horses, that is kind of the situation that we're in.
You know, you might get two or three viewings, but very often
not. So we have to try to do our
darndest to be as objective and, yeah, honest about ourselves as
we possibly can be. And of course, sometimes the
horse that turns up isn't the horse that you viewed as well,
which is a whole nother. Sometimes.
Exactly. They had their best, their best
suit and their aftershave on for the day, and then turns out
they're actually just a slob who eats Rita picks in beds.
You never know, do you? Exactly.
Painting horror stories, can't we?
Oh, I love it, Kate, talk us through your approach when we
step in the arena with you. Your soft and sound approach.
What do you stand for when you teach any new client and their
horse? What can we get from you?
Well, I suppose my background originally was horsemanship so
and I, I really didn't intend to end up working with horses.
I just had a couple of horses of my own, you know that.
And then it was only through realising that I didn't know
what I was doing that I started to then get support from people
who were coming from a horsemanship perspective.
I was very lucky that there were good people local to me.
And then through them, Tom Widdecombe was the chap that I
was introduced to, wrote a lovely book called Be With a
Horse. And they had started to become
interested in French classical training because they'd reached
a point with the horsemanship side of things.
And it appears they were quite early to the party.
Because if you go on the Internet now everybody's talking
about this cohesion between horsemanship, particularly the
kind of Vaccaro school of or Buckaroo school of groundwork
and riding and the French classical system.
Because they had got to a point with the horsemanship where they
knew that they needed to understand more about, well,
specifically in their case, balance.
How do you help horses to balance and how horses move and,
and if you want to actually progress your training on from
actually, things feel pretty nice between me and my horse.
We're not pulling on each other. This is good enough.
And then what? So I was fortunate that through
them I found the French classical school and
specifically for me, the Ecol de Legerte, which is the school
that Philippe Carl founded, which I've been training in for
quite a long time now. And then I knew.
And it was just one of those things where you realise
somebody's asking if you can help them with your horse, their
horse and then somebody else's. And then before you know it,
you're helping quite a lot of people with their horses.
I, I have kept my hand in, I'm a like a guest lecturer at the
University of Exeter around young people's mental health.
Because I really feel like the human psychology side of things
is such a, such a big player in the horse human relationship
that I am very interested and keen to keep on bringing those
things together. So when somebody comes to me or
I go to them, it's very difficult to say what I would do
when I go in the arena because sometimes it's prime.
You can see clearly. This is a foundational
horsemanship issue. You know, this horse doesn't
understand how to feel OK with a person.
So we need to start right there with leading or groundwork or
how a horse feels about having its body touched.
Does a horse feel OK about things in its blind spots?
You know, all the things that a domesticated horse needs a human
to help them with if they're going to live with us.
So it's not unusual for people to come saying they want to work
on dressage or ridden stuff. And actually, as soon as they
come in the door, you think, whoa, no, it starts here.
You know, this horse doesn't understand how to feel OK in the
halter. They don't understand how to
balance themselves when they're alongside you on the ground.
Or it might be that we can get to riding and then you're
looking at what are the things that a horse needs to be able to
do to carry a rider and balance themselves and not injure
themselves. You know, how do we help a horse
to at least stay sound, if not become more physically capable
and beautiful through work? And I mean, this is where I
think Philippe Carl was incredibly clever in terms of
his training cycle, which you can have a look at in his book
if you want to, but where he just gives you 3 things to kind
of assess. So when I'm first watching
somebody or sitting on their horse.
Also, something that we all had drummed into us was you need to
ride your students horses because you very often don't
know what's going on until you sit on a horse.
So that's a kind of a big part of it is you need to feel what's
happening between a person and a horse as well as watch what's
happening that you're trying to understand what what thing could
ioffer this horse right now that's going to help the riding
experience be more pleasurable for them?
Is it that I need to help them with their balance?
Is it that I need to help them with relaxation?
Is it that I need to help them with impulsion?
Those are kind of the first three things you tend to look at
with straightness being an all-encompassing.
If my horse is crooked in his body, he's going to find it very
difficult to be balanced in his brain.
When they go wonky in their brain, they get very crooked in
their body. So you can do a kind of broad
sweep of what do I see is going on here?
That if I could help this horse with this, they're immediately
going to think, oh, OK, that feels better because horses are
always up for things feeling better.
There are a lot more straightforward than humans, you
know, they don't. My friend Jane Pike says, how
often do you find yourself arguing against your own
happiness? Like that's such a human thing
to kind of argue against our happiness.
Horses don't do that. If it feels better, happy days,
I'll go with that. And but then sometimes it's a,
it's a human problem. And so sometimes we have to
actually start with what, what is it that the person is
experiencing or bringing to the table that is causing a rub for
them and their horse and almost invariably causing a rub in
other areas of their life as well.
So that's why it's difficult to say what would you get in a
lesson? Because it really depends on how
the partnership are when they walked through the door that
day. And what you're bringing to the
table, But I love that you've got this approach that you will
slow it down or take it back to basics.
If actually you think you've got a better idea of what needs
fixing than the person coming in saying I want to work on X.
You know, how many times do we hear instructors just going
along with what they've been booked to teach?
They're there to do a jumping lesson or they're there to do a
dressage lesson, but you're actually catering the needs and
tailor making that session to the person that walks in the
arena that day. How do they take it, Kate?
I can imagine. I was just.
Going to say I've lost a few clients along the way I.
Was going to say that must get quite difficult actually, if
they're not ready to hear that they're in a certain mental
space or they've got, you know, some baggage they're bringing to
the door. I would say I'm very fortunate
now that most of the people that I work with know who I am and
what I do. A lot of them have read my book
so they've got, they're not coming completely blind to it.
I think early on and still occasionally, particularly when
people come because they hear you do French classical
training, that's where I sometimes have to give people a
health warning because I've also was very fortunate that the
equine sports massage course happens down here locally.
So I trained on that as well because I wanted to know more
about horses bodies. I know that I have lost people
because you might say we can't work on this because, well, your
horse doesn't feel OK about you just standing next to him.
How can we possibly be considering working on your
counter cancer? From my perspective, it's like
it's of no interest because the horse knows that you weren't
paying attention to that stuff. The other one that I'd know I've
definitely lost clients around, but very often they come back
later is when you say I think your horse might not be feeling
OK in their body and or maybe your saddle doesn't suit, which
can be really hard for people to hear when they've had a master
saddler do fit the saddle or they've had vets who've said no,
this horse is perfectly fine. I do think more and more people
are aware that that is a possibility.
You know, there's a healthy wave of information out there for us
all to read now about the fact that horses may be trying to
tell us that they hurt. But those conversations are
never easy because none of us want to hear them, you know,
usually because we really care for a horse and we don't want
to. I have to acknowledge that they
might be in pain and I don't know what to do about it.
Or maybe I've been riding them with feet that are out of
balance. You know, it's, it's not, it's
not an easy path to walk being an instructor that doesn't, that
doesn't just want to provide a product or an outcome for the
person. But like I said, it's pretty
rare now that when people come to me, they don't know who I am
and what I do. So, and that's not to say we
don't have difficult conversations, you know we do,
but most people that come want they want to know how to improve
the situation for them and their horse.
Do you think, Kate, this is what's been missing from
lessons? You know, decades ago it was
just turn up, ride the horse, get off and and off you go.
Now it seems to be that conversations are opening up
about the horses, about what's going on in the background.
Do you think almost lessons should be a bit of a therapy
session for the partnership going in?
I don't know if I'd call it therapy because we probably have
to be quite careful because we're not therapists.
But I would say many, many riding instructors, if you ask
them, would say part of my job is being a counsellor.
I think it's a really interesting and challenging
place actually, because if we look back at how things were for
horses and humans historically, most of it had a military slant.
You know, a lot of historical riding came from a military
perspective. In the UK we don't have a riding
Academy in the same way that they do in France and Portugal
and Spain. So we don't have that academic
background. We have going very fast, jumping
big hedges. You know, that's the tradition
of riding in the UK. And we have to remember that it
was primarily men. So now most people I come into
contact with are women. Most people have a horse not to
go to battle on. You know, most of them are
coming because they want to have an enjoyable time with the
horse. But I think there could be, you
have to be careful that you don't make your horse your
therapist. You know, it's, I think that's
absolutely. We need more conversations.
Most of us don't want didactic teaching where we're just told
what to do. In fact, I reckon I meet a lot
of people who, with a small T, were traumatized by early riding
experiences of, you know, the way that many of us were taught.
Yes. Usually by a ferocious lady that
you didn't question. Exactly.
Yeah. Smoking AB and H and shouting at
you. Yes.
When you look so it is shocking, isn't it?
To some of the teacher, not all the teacher, but some of the
teaching is unbelievable. Yeah, so and that, but we have
to be careful to not throw the baby out with the bathwater
because what I believe is there is stuff you we need to go away
and look at away from our horse. Our horses will reveal things to
us about us that your teacher might observe, help you observe,
but it's then not your horse's responsibility to sort that out
for you. You know, that is where we might
then say, oh, I think you need to go and speak to somebody else
about this. It's why I'm just about to
launch a coaching course with somebody because I feel like
there are things here that are outside of my skill set.
I'm not a trained coach. I'm not a therapist.
I do know relatively well how to train horses.
I'm not somebody who's repeatedly produced horses to a
high level of high school, but I can help most people train their
horse to a serviceable, functional level.
You know, a big passion of mine is riding out.
I think it's a very skilled thing that we can do with
horses, but there is a mindset and a way of being that our
horses really appreciate us coming to them with that.
They might show us you need to deal with this, but it's not a
riding instructors responsibility to sort it.
So I don't know if that makes sense, Amanda.
It's like, yes, we need to have more conversations.
We need to move away from just having somebody yell kick on,
kick on, you know, from the corner of the school.
But, and I, you know, the riding school that I've worked with
closely, Burkhart in Somerset, she's remarkable in terms of the
quality of teaching that she gives.
And I think many more riding schools are trying to do that,
trying to see this is about a partnership.
There is a human here who also has learning needs, who, you
know, also might need things explained differently to them.
Who isn't coming to a lesson to do a bad job.
Nobody is coming to a lesson to try to be crap, are they?
You know, they're coming to do their best.
So that's excellent that more and more people are realising I
might need to adapt my teaching style.
I might need to be aware that I've got 2 emotional bodies in
the arena. That, you know, that these are
both creatures, we're all just creatures of who are bringing
their own stuff with them. Horses are typically a lot more
straightforward because they are not storytelling creatures in
the same way that humans are. So they don't have that
narrative that dogs people. But it's at what point do you
say, OK, but, and but this is a riding lesson.
And so I would really suggest that you go and get coaching or
mentoring or therapy alongside this.
And I have seen some of my students do that and it has been
transformational then. And then I get to witness a
totally different thing going on between them and their horse
because they have set about, OK, I also need to support myself.
And actually, that isn't my horse's responsibility.
Absolutely. And also recognizing in yourself
that actually if you're having a bad day mentally, emotionally,
don't get on your horse. You know, I learned that in the
pandemic. You know, if you're having a
really rough time and you're dealing with things that are
going on behind the scenes, don't go and have a lesson or,
you know, don't ride your horse, maybe go and groom your spend
time with yours, groom your horse or, you know, go out for
what? Go out in hand hacking.
You know, you don't have to get on if you're not in that mental
space so often. And I know I can think back into
the past, you know, when I had set lessons on set days where I
was riding with people and you feel that pressure that
whatever's going on, I must ride that day.
I can't let down the instructor. I can't let down my friends.
We've all got a hack booked. You know you must go and
actually the last thing you want to do is be in a competitive
scenario or be in a situation where you have to perform to a
certain level. You might need to take it easy
on yourself that day and actually knowing when to
recognise a day you're up for it and a day you're not.
Well, 100%. And I think that's why if you
have invested in your horsemanship groundwork skills,
there are so many things that are available to you that don't
involve riding. So it does it massively opens up
a world of possibilities that can mean you do a check in of
yourself and think today I'm feeling a bit tight or, you
know, a bit upset or a bit distracted or whatever.
I firmly believe that walking is one of the greatest selves that
humans have available to them. You know, we are creatures who
are designed to walk. We're we're born to move.
So going for a walk with your horse.
There's this study that I've talked about before and I wish
she'd done it with horses. There's a lady called Doctor
Kelly Mcgonigal who wrote a book called The Joy of Movement.
It's really beautiful and she talks about how our brain
releases endocannabinoids when we cover long distances for
sustained periods of time. And we do it more when we do it
in company and they track the brains of various other animals.
And it didn't show up. I can't remember what it was.
It was something hilarious like a ferret.
But it did the same pattern showed up in dogs.
So when dogs move together in that trot, trot, slow trotting,
so it wasn't sprinting it where, you know, it's like sustained
purposeful movement together that they have the same thing
that your brain is kind of trying to say, come on, Kitty,
Kitty, Kitty, keep moving. So it has this internal reward
system. And so if you can do that with
your horse, I my suspicion is horses probably have got some
and I've done know this is an absolute guesswork.
I'm not a neuroscientist around horses.
You'd have to ask Doctor Stephen Peters about this one, wouldn't
you? But whether they have some
internal feel good chemical that gets released from hovering
distances together as well. So I always think that, yeah, if
you can walk together, both of you will be getting internal.
You know, for us, it's they know, it's basically what you
know you get from cannabis. Is that feel good?
Yeah, chemical that. But you don't get it from short
bursts of energy. You get it from going together
for long periods of time. But you need to have spent the
time showing your horse how to be LED, how to keep you safe on
the ground, how to keep themselves on the ground, what
to do if something concerns them, all of those things.
That means on the day where you think I don't feel like riding
today, you can go for a walk with your horse and you can both
get a lot out of it. Oh.
I think I'm so glad you mentioned that the that chemical
feeling, you know, that we feel as well, because walking with my
horse in the countryside is one of my, I think my most favorite
thing to do in the world. You know, I grew up that you
ride horses and I came to groundwork later in life and
discovered walking with my horse in the pandemic, much, much to
my horsey friends shock, you know, hang on, we're going
hanging. Why are you walking with you
know, we're going hacking. Anna and I would walk with my
mare with other horses being ridden and we would go out for
four hours and I would walk and got very, very fit as well.
And so did my mare and it. It was just the most joyous
experience and I anyone listening who hasn't tried it
before, it is the most beautiful experience.
You learn to trust your horse in a whole new way because you're
side by side. You're not on top.
You are having to navigate the, the challenges of the
countryside or the roads. In fact, walking side by side,
you, you learn a whole new respect for your horse and your
horse to you as well. And wow, what an experience.
And we keep it up to this day. You know, it is one of my
favorite things in the world to do.
If not my, my, you know, that's well, if I've got a free day,
that's what I want to do. That's so sweet.
I also think, I mean, other than everybody stopping and saying
you're right, love, you had a fall, you know, because people
can't get their head out. Why are you walking?
Shouldn't you? Be right.
Shouldn't you be right in that thing?
Yeah. Why are you walking your door?
Yeah, exactly. But I also think, you know,
before I back a young horse, I spent hours walking out with
them so that they have experienced going from a leading
position to being an ascending position.
So that they've they've developed a relationship with
you out in the world before you get on them and then say, and
now you're a bit more responsible.
I think there's so much in it. So you're right.
And you never come back from a walk with your horse feeling
worse than when you set out. Did you always feel better?
Yeah, those endorphins. That is where I say.
That that chemical chemistry, there's something going on
there. And then like you say, I'd love
to know that science about the partnership of walking together
because there is whatever it is that you feel inside, there is a
magic because, you know, that horse could take one step or one
lunge to the side and crush you, you know, quite really steady.
Or a lorry comes by. You could both end up in a
ditch, but you don't. And you are walking and you're,
you know, traversing the terrain wherever it go, whether it's,
you know, it's bridal parcel, whether it's road work or
Woodlands or country, whatever it might be.
There is a. Real magic there about the sort
of vulnerability, that vulnerable space we're standing
in as being the sort of very fragile humans next to the, you
know, magnificent beasts. But that that partnership of
walking out and I think even the fact, like you say, you get
weird looks, you get criticism, you get judgement and it feels
quite empowering. I feel, you know, actually we're
changing the space of horsemanship.
You don't have to be lunging or long reigning or riding.
You can just walk with your horse.
You know, maybe in the future we might all go out on a dog walk
and see everyone walking their horses.
Now that would be a world I'd love to see.
I mean, I think the big problem for a lot of people is access to
outdoor spaces, isn't it? Because I know traffic is a real
problem, you know, and it's not your horse can be very clear how
to respond to traffic, but traffic isn't always clear about
how to be respectful of horses, is it?
So it's, it's challenging because I know the young horse I
was telling you about is damaged his shoulder.
He's got what looks like a minus Sweeney.
So they start to get muscle atrophy in their shoulder.
And I'm really fortunate because of where I live, so I live right
in the middle of Dartmoor National Park, so we can get off
road straight away. And my vet said the best thing
you can do is take him out up onto the mall because what he
needs to do is really redevelop his proper sets of qualities
around that shoulder and leg. And if I didn't have that, I
would have to be doing similar things over poles in the arena.
And that absolutely has its benefit, but I don't think it
has so much, I don't think there's so much goodness in
there as when you're actually getting out and doing that
exploration of the world together.
And they see the points of it. Why do I have to work out how to
place my feet and how to balance myself?
It's because it's really clear to me.
The surfaces are changing, the gradients are changing.
I have to move around this. It's harder for a horse, I
think, to see the points of walking over poles not, but
sometimes that's the best you've got.
So then we just have to use whatever we can to make that as
interesting as possible for a horse, don't we?
Oh totally. It's like us in the gym, you
know, we can go into a four, you know, 4 walled, white walled gym
and be like, what's the point of this exercise?
You go out on a three hour walk and you're going up hills, you
know, which is really helping your leg muscles and you're
building your muscles up. You know, you can suddenly see
the benefits of exercise, can't you?
And how great you feel and you can see your body shaping up and
yet you're just walking and going across different terrain.
You know, if you can do some hill work, just amazing for you
and your horse walking up those hills, you know, moving to
Suffolk and seeing the flat land, a bit disturbing.
It's so flat. I'm like.
I'm looking. For my hills, you know, we're
driving around the I think, right, there's a hill we're
going to walk that, that because it's quite, you know, we come
from Kent, which is quite hilly, you know.
So then working with what you've got, I walk my mare out round
busy roundabouts on the main road.
People look on me in horror. Why are you taking a horse
around a roundabout? Because we don't have access to
a beautiful bridle path, you know.
Please give. US1 we don't.
So we're going to go round that Main Rd. roundabout, we're going
to walk and we're going to have the traffic beeping us and
piling up behind us and shouting all sorts of abuse, but we're
going to do it because we are entitled to be on that road just
as anyone else's. Yeah, but it's why we have to
give our horse skills as well as empathy.
It's not. I mean, I think this is the
funny little seesaw that we can see playing out on the Internet
all the time at the moment of this.
Like I said, to begin with, you know, no pressure, only consent
based all of that stuff moving away from a very you will do
what you're told horse style of training, which is absolutely
appropriate. You know, the more we go on, the
more we realize, you know, maybe even plants have their own
intelligence that we're starting to clock how very blinkered we
are to the natural world. And but I think if we're going
to put horses in domesticated situations and like you
described going round roundabouts, my horses were, you
know, out on the road this morning, fast delivery drivers,
dogs barking at gates, cows, all of those things, then we can't
leave it to the horse to work out what am I supposed to do in
this situation as a herd animal that you've taken me away from
my herd, as a flight animal that you're saying you can't run, You
know, and as a prey animal that is constantly checking what
might happen to them. So to my mind, it's this.
You need both, you know, you need to understand that they are
a feeling animal who is trying to do their best always with
what they know and that we have a massive responsibility to
train them basically to show them, you know, when these
things happen in the world, this is what it is that you need to
do. And it's our brains find that a
hard dichotomy to balance because we want either or.
And actually, I think what horses need is both.
Yes, and isn't it interesting, you know, any good teacher of
humans or trainer of humans is has now developed the approach,
hopefully we hope in 2026 that they are empathetic and kind and
gentle and calm, but also have the ability to teach us the
right skills. And I mean discipline sounds
harsh, doesn't it? I don't mean it in a physical
sense, but put us in our place if we if we step out of line or
if we give a bit of attitude or, you know, any good teacher of
humans, perhaps, would you say we need to have similar skills
with horses? We're not all that different.
There's got to be that balance of you're going to learn, but
we're going to be kind and empathetic and gentlemen, we're
going to have a a partnership and a relationship.
I suppose it's that you would try to explain to students.
I used to work in special education, and I remember the
head teacher of the school that I worked in saying it's not
actually vital for most of these students to learn trigonometry,
but it is vital that they learn how to not punch somebody in the
supermarket. It's, you know, like, how do you
get along in the world is something that as adults we're
trying to support kids to understand is those skills are
actually the most important skills.
It's like, how do you make friends?
How do you learn how to learn? How do you learn how to follow
your interests? How do you learn but not to
swear at people when you get angry and you know how to work
that stuff out for yourself? That's really what I feel we
should be trying to gift all horses is, look, I've chosen to
put you in this situation even when people talk about, well, I
rescued the horse, yeah, but you still made the choice is, you
know, this. The horse is still choiceless in
this. Even when you've rescued them,
it's still you that has decided where they live, which friends
they live with, whether they go in or out, you know, all of that
stuff. So then we need to, as you just
described there, as compassionately as we can
explain to them, this is how not to kick the farrier or foot
trimmer, you know, this is how to be the horse that the vet
wants to come back and see. This is, I always think if I had
a queue of people lining up for my horses when I died, I'd feel
like I'd done as good a job as I could.
And none of them need to be doing flying changes or live
hard for that. They all just need to be a horse
that people think, oh, this horse is nice to be around.
You know, they, they understand how to communicate with people.
They understand how to keep people safe.
They understand how to keep themselves safe.
Those are lessons that I think we owe it to horses rather than
thinking I'll just be completely horse LED and let the horse work
everything out because they didn't ask to be in this life.
We we bred them into it basically, didn't we?
So I feel like, yeah, what you just described there, what does
a good, the teachers that you remember from school that you
enjoyed learning from made you feel safe, made you feel able to
get things wrong and not be in trouble, but you also wanted to
have a reciprocally respectful relationship with them.
They didn't make you feel small and stupid and therefore you
didn't want to say terrible things to them.
So it's the set, you know. It's like you said it's.
We are our horses teacher as well as their friends as well as
their partner. Oh, I love it.
I love that we're delving into this, Kate, and you mentioned
about good teaching. Tell us about some of the
mentors that have inspired you because you've travelled the
world and I love that you didn't set out to be a trainer.
It kind of found you. But tell us about some of those
life changing moments and things that you learnt from some of the
mentors in your life. I mean, I suppose I, I am so
grateful for the input of Tom and Sarah Widdecombe, who I
still live on their farm now, because they taught me a lot
about horses that I didn't know in terms of what kind of an
animal a horse really is. You know, I really have my eyes
opened in a way. But yeah, it did change my life
in about who is a horse. I had, I had no idea before that
and I had no idea of how things could really feel between a
person and a horse. 100% Philippe Carl obviously has had
a huge impact on my life because of his understanding of how to
logically train a horse. And as somebody I'd never, I'd
never had a, I'd never done a dressage competition.
I'd really just hacked around. I'd had a few lessons and then I
basically found Tom and Sarah. And then for whatever reason I
went and watched his first instructor training course and I
was teaching quite a lot at that point, but very much
horsemanship based work. We all had to audition for the
course and it was horrendous. But he did invite me and Dez,
the my older Lucy Tanner, who has still got to come on the
horse and I'd on the course. Rather.
I don't think anybody else who was on the course, who all were
VHS instructors or who'd ridden to a very high level, you know,
professional event riders, that kind of thing, realized what a
novice I actually was. I don't think I did either.
You know, you look back and think, if I'd really clocked
what I was doing, I would never have gone for that because, and
who the hell was I to be on that course?
It's only now that I say to people, I didn't really know
which diagonal to rise on. And that is not, you know, a
word of a lie that I didn't. I, I kind of knew how to make
things feel nice between me and a horse, but that was it.
Anything I was able to show him at that point in my audition, a
bit of lateral work. I kind of knew how to ride.
Good transitions were just from watching his videos and from
having watched other people. I suppose what he has gifted me
and so many other people is the ability to understand what
different horses need and then how to use a logical approach to
training. So he's so big on you.
Do not use woolly language. You do you.
You have to understand what you're saying, how it affects
that horse's body and why you're doing it.
So you can't talk a game that doesn't relate to what's
actually going on. And and he I, I wouldn't say he
was the easiest teacher. You know, he's pretty direct.
And as I subsequently found out, I was having to play a massive
game of catch up. But I love his.
You need to be able to explain it.
You know that in the equestrian world, there's so much amorphous
blumongy chats around horses even, you know, somebody will
tell you if you're having lessons, do this, do this.
And then if they do get on your horse, which is quite rare, then
they get on and do something completely different because
they don't even know what it is that they're doing.
So I think from him I really got that is like really understand
what it is that you're teaching and find the simplest way to
explain it to somebody. You don't teach somebody by
confusing them, you teach them by gifting them.
Knowledge basically, how refreshing you, you say that
Kate, just to jump in because how often does a an instructor
say, oh, you need to correct this and then you'll come out
again and do that move again and you won't have done anything
different because you're not really sure what they said and
they've got oh, nailed it, smashed it, you know, brilliant
on to the next thing. And you think, well, I've got no
clue what's just been said. What you know, I didn't do
anything differently. So I'm so glad you've said that
as well with the level that you ride at and and train at Kate as
well, kind of debunking that feeling that so many of us feel.
But you're almost too scared to say anything in the lesson.
Yeah. And what did you really mean?
Well, it's like. The Emperor's New clothes.
But no, but it's the emperor's new clothes thing, isn't it?
It's like, oh, OK, everybody else here must understand what's
going on and it must just be me. That's the thicky that doesn't
understand. And the one dressage clinic I'd
been to before I started riding directly with PK was exactly
that experience of but what's happening?
I don't understand why now this person's pleased and a minute
ago they weren't pleased. Whereas when you ride with
Philip Karl, he's so clear, this is the thing that I'm looking
for. This is how you ask for it.
If it doesn't happen, this is the thing that you're going to
try instead. So it's like a real kind of
shocker block way of learning to ride.
And the French school is, you know, Beauchet was about kind of
dividing the horse into pieces and then putting it back
together again, which is artificial in terms of how a
horse's body works. But I think it was as much for
the person, OK, you're going to teach these separated aids so
that then you can start to put them back together.
And like now when I think about the things I'm working on at
home, you know, stuff that I net like flying changes and PF and
various things with my older horse, I think how did I do
this? And I only did it because he
explained these are the things that you put in place so that
then actually the more advanced stuff is not difficult.
You know, if your horse understands those things, it's
the foundations that's tricky. It's the foundations that takes
the time to get all of those really understood and easy for
your horse. Then you can just start to slot
them together and think, oh sweet, now this bit isn't
difficult. So I really thank him for that.
And then most recently when he retired from travelling so much,
his one of his master teachers, a lady called Sylvia Stossel, a
Swiss lady, comes over and teaches us on the instructor
course now. And she has really, really
helped me to understand the female body on a horse because
it is quite different than the male body.
So she helped me with things that I was grappling with for
years, which prompted me as well to go and spend quite a lot of
time learning with Jane Pike, nervous system based coach in
New Zealand, but who you can learn with online to really
understand quite a lot of instructions that we get about
how to manage our body as riders are based on the male body,
which functions very differently than the female body.
You know, our, our pelvises are completely different.
Our the lumbar spine is very often completely different.
Our arms work differently. You know our arms are designed
to carry babies, not to throw stuff, so.
Seriously. I didn't know that.
Yeah. Yeah, so you know the I mean, I
this is one of those very woolly sauces again, but I did read
somewhere in a book, but the the thoracic sling of the female
form is designed to be able to carry.
Whereas obviously the it's why when boys mock you for not being
able to throw, it's because our shoulders just aren't designed
to do the same things as theirs. So we need to.
And Sylvia wasn't this specific about some of this stuff.
I went away and learned it was that she was just very gentle in
terms of the reason you are struggling with some of these
things is because you need to understand your body better and
your body is not a male body that also many saddles, not all,
but that many saddles. The twist is designed for the
male pelvis as well. So we're up against it on all
fronts. So that that really helped.
And then they're just, you know, they've been great friends that
I have learnt from along the way.
I've spent a lot of time Co teaching with another leisure to
instructor called Nicky Stevens and and Nicky's like an old
school horse woman and she knows everything about every horse.
And I've learnt so much from somebody coming from a very
different background to mine who can help me look at a horse's
body and think, oh, the reason that horse finds that difficult
is because of the way their body is put together.
And nobody had ever really talked to me about that in the
level of detail that she's helped me to see.
So, you know, and then of course, of course, every horse
I've come into contact with. But probably the one I think
most people are aware that I have had the most challenges
with, but who I'm eternally grateful for is my older Luso
Des. So I'm very, very, very grateful
that he has not ditched me at some point through my many
shoddy learning attempts. And it's just kept showing up
again. Say, OK, she's come back with
some new idea today, let's go with this.
So, yeah, him as well. We've been together for quite a
long time now, so there are probably plenty of other people
as well, but those are some of the main ones.
And so inspiring to hear. And in a minute, we're going to
take you behind the scenes, Kate.
We're going to ask you some listener questions.
Just some quick fire Q&A listener questions.
OK. But before we do that, it's just
been such a wonderful session with you, such a wonderful hour
of inspiring chat, really unpicking, you know, us, the
horse, the partnership, the lesson space, teaching and what
we need. But going back to you and soft
and sound and choosing the word and also the way of being in
terms of being soft in the equestrian world that, you know,
traditionally speaking is seen as weak or certainly was seen as
weakness, being soft. Did you choose that word in that
approach for that as a direct kind of counterbalance to that
methodology and that way of thinking?
Oh. Hannah, I think you're crediting
me with being brighter than I actually am now.
I think it was probably just that's.
What I've got from our session together, that's clearly why
Kate's gone for the soft approach I.
Think it was a long time ago and I think what it actually was, it
was when me and my friend Sarah Whitaker were running courses
together. I think it was probably more
about the blend of horsemanship, which had a focus on softness,
and the classical riding, which had a focus on soundness.
So I don't think I was being inspired enough to think that I
was setting myself up to say, look, there's an there's an
alternative approach. And like I said, I'm kind of,
I'm very grateful for it because people I think understand it and
like it. Softness, it's a, it's a funny
old word because it can mean so many different things to so many
people. But I certainly don't think it
means weakness. And vulnerability is one of the
greatest things that we can bring to life anyway, isn't it?
So that, I think is a strength. If you think that softness means
being vulnerable, well, good. Oh.
I love it. I hate those old sayings that,
oh, they're a bit soft. She's a bit soft, you know, in
that kind of critical way of thinking and in that more
traditional approach with horses that we saw, you know,
particularly generations ago, hopefully not now.
But, you know, that it had to be a more sort of strict way with
horses and that you couldn't be soft.
You had to be the boss and all those kind of manchas that were
sort of passed down the generations.
But actually, hopefully, do you see in 2026, Kate, a different
approach for horses now? Do you see that kind of opening
up that vulnerability in people that they want to change for
their horse, not just for their for their own performance, but
for their horse? 100% I think, like I said, where
we have to be cautious is it doesn't swing too far the other
way and that we end up with a lot of confused, unsure,
unguided horses or horses who expected to be a counsellor for
people because they're not that as well.
But I keep wondering about and often write about why have we
got them? You know, like we don't need
them at all anymore. But there is clearly something
particularly maybe in the Western psyche that needs that
connection with wildness or with something that just isn't us in
a way that is very different than most domesticated creatures
that we, we want, we want them in our lives for something other
than just winning prizes and controlling them.
I, I mean, I can't speak to modern day dressage.
I don't think things have changed much there.
There isn't every time I watch a bit of it, I think, oh, I think
I just need to go wash my eyes out a second.
So I don't see it massively improving at that level yet.
But I think at grass roots where most people have a horse in
their life because primarily of partnership, that's not to say
they don't want to go out competing and fun rides and all
those kind of things, but most of them aren't doing it to make
a living out of horses. A lot of people are standing
back, I think, and considering things from the horses
perspective. And that might mean I need to be
clearer, you know, actually, that might mean I need to be a
better, more compassionate leader for my horse.
I might need to be a bolder advocate on my horse's behalf.
But at least it's people are trying to understand.
I don't think my horse is just being naughty.
You know, I don't think my horse is just trying to get out of
work or get one over on me. I do those.
It's not so difficult to have those conversations with people
now looking at you like you're from Mars.
You know, I think there is a, there is a bigger understanding
that. Oh, they're just a creature like
I am who sometimes doesn't understand what's going on or is
in pain or is unsure or doesn't like this thing it's being asked
to do. And that's a really good thing.
And. No one knows the future, Kate,
so just take this with a pinch of salt, but how long do you
think or when do you think we're going to see that shift from
these kind of conversations from grassroots up to that top level
dressage? Can you see a change coming on
the horizon? I don't know, but I think we
need to be careful because if it doesn't change, the non equine
public look at it and think this doesn't look very nice for
horses. You know, people who don't know
anything about horses very often can see, I don't think it's nice
when a horse has blood on its flanks because somebody's been
spurring it so hard, or why has that person got that horse's
head in that position? But the challenge is going to be
that if it doesn't change at the public level, then our whole
industry, for want of a better word, will get tarred with the
same brush of it is cruel to ride horses.
You know, it is cruel for people to have horses, as, you know,
whatever domesticated animals in their lives.
So I feel that. I mean, as my friend.
Oh, Kathleen, I'm really sorry I didn't mention Kathleen Beckham
and Karen Moussong. Those are two women who've been
instrumental in changing things for me.
So Kathleen and I have worked together for years.
And her big thing is you have to hit people in their pockets.
And so the only way that you bring about change is by
tracking the money and then changing the money.
So, you know, changing where the money goes.
And so it's only by getting sponsors to pull out really if
that you'll start to maybe get people at those levels to think
people don't like what I'm doing because the judges keep telling
them they're doing a good job. So they're not going to not get
good rewards at that level. And we are breeding these
spectacular horses that you can ride a very early age doing
incredible things with bodies that are almost non functional
in terms of their level of hypermobility and too muchness.
You know, if I look at I see Dartmoor ponies everyday.
They don't look much like those big old warm bloods that you see
hammering around the you know, we've come a long way from what
a horses actually evolved to be. So I think there needs to be a
change because otherwise there's going to be a change forced upon
us. I I worry and the only way that
that's going to change is if we in the equestrian industry start
to say, I don't want the company that I buy my job was from to be
sponsoring that person. Although I can see, I think
Kathleen's right is you have the, it's only in people's when
people's pockets get hit that that, that make it, they make a
change. Oh gosh.
So I don't know if that was optimistic or not, but I was.
Going to say it's an interesting that's part optimistic and part
very depressing, isn't it that it comes down to money at the
end of the day. But you you're so right as well
that it needs to be the public, the onlookers that actually sort
of create an outcry of this is not the way we should be
treating horses, but equestrian should be on board that as well.
Not just like you say that the non rule.
Absolutely, it should be a question.
Saying I don't support this, but how long it's going to take,
we'll have to wait and see. I mean, there's no conversations
are certainly happening. It's whether it ripples up,
isn't it? And and how long it takes.
I mean, you'd like to think to to just maybe be not quite such
a cynic. There was an article this week,
I think in Horse and hand about Mia Rodley, who rides a
beautiful level bridaless. You know, there are more and
more people who are demonstrating, sometimes
honestly and sometimes not honestly, what they can do
without loads of force. So maybe I'm wrong.
Maybe it's not just about the money.
Maybe it was also about showing more and more examples of, look,
you can do this from a different perspective.
So I, there's probably a many pronged approach that we need to
take that will shift things. And all I try to think Anna is
what can I do in my sphere? What can I do in relationship to
the people that are nearest me? And can I in my small way, try
to share, look, there are these possibilities too, because and,
and, and maybe making decisions about things like am I going to
buy from that company if they are sponsoring somebody who's
riding I find really abhorrent. Exactly.
And I think actually the the very optimistic take away from
your comment about money in pockets is that is something we
can all control. Where are we putting our money?
What are we supporting and actually having our eyes open to
where our money is going and not putting money on seats at
certain events or, you know, things that we want to change
and and those sponsors think, you know, re evaluate.
So actually a real positive take away from from what you're
saying there. Because we can.
Contract, I mean that can't we? We can.
Yeah, we can. And if you look at what's
happened at the big with the big lick in the States, that
horrendous of, you know, sport, it's gonna die because nobody
goes to watch it anymore. So yeah, OK, most of the people
who are doing it maybe haven't changed their ethical principles
about soaring horses and weighing their feets and so on.
But if you've got nobody turning up to watch, then that will stop
the event. So yes, that's how we do.
We do have power. Yeah, we do.
And that is a really important take away and a lovely way to
end the episode. Kate, thank you so much for
coming on Curious Equestrian. I feel so inspired and
empowered. For those who are watching and
listening to you right now that want to find out more about what
you do, where can they find you? Well, having said, I've
travelled internationally, which is probably a grand term for
having gone to a few countries this, this year I'm actually
staying put on Dartmoor more because certainly the last few
years I've travelled so much in the UK and I would like to,
well, no, I'm going to be based on Dartmoor more.
So there are many opportunities to come and learn with me here.
And I'm actually starting to do quite a lot more stuff out on
the Moor. So supporting people to come out
and adventure out with their horses.
I have access to a fabulous indoor arena where I run regular
clinics here in Devon. I also have a online membership
group and I run online courses and do teach quite a lot of
online lessons. People can set up individual
coaching opportunities with me to people all over the world.
So you can just go to softandsound.org or my Facebook
page Soft and Sound and find out a bit more about that if you
would like. Kate, thank you so much for
coming on Curious Equestrian. Thank you very much for inviting
me, Anna. And yeah, it's been lovely to
meet you. And Kate is going behind the
scenes now in the members area. So if you want to join us, come
along on Patreon. All the links will be in the
description. You'll see Kate's Q&A with
listener questions, plus all sorts of other bonus content
demos and lots, lots more. So come and join us and support
the channel on Patreon. And don't forget to subscribe to
this episode if you haven't already to help us bring more
brilliant guests to the channel, just like Kate.