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Horses are always up for things 
feeling better. 

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They're a lot more 
straightforward than humans. 

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How often do you find yourself 
arguing against your own 

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happiness? 
Like that's such a human thing, 

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to kind of argue against our 
happiness. 

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Horses don't do that. 
If it feels better, happy days, 

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I'll go with that. 
Hello and welcome back to 

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Curious Equestrian. 
I'm your host, Anna Louise, and 

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if you enjoy this podcast, 
please hit subscribe if you 

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haven't already so we can keep 
bringing you a brilliant guest. 

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Like today, we're welcoming 
horse trainer Kate Sandel. 

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Kate has a background in French 
classical riding, in 

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horsemanship and in equine 
sports massage, as well as well 

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as in human mental health. 
We're going to be talking to 

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Kate all about being soft and 
being sound, how we can use 

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softness to achieve soundness. 
We're also going to talk about 

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who our horses really are, who 
is in that body, who's in that 

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spirit and what can we give them
in their lives. 

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Not just thinking about what we 
want to achieve with our horses.

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We're going to talk about some 
of the amazing mentors in Kate's

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life and lots, lots more. 
As well as delving into what it 

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means to be a good teacher 
ourselves, not only as horse 

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owners, but in terms of looking 
for instructors that can help us

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learn and unlock magical moments
with our horses. 

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Let's dive in, shall we? 
Kate, welcome to Curious 

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Equestrian. 
Hello, very nice to be here. 

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I want to start by jumping in 
Kate and get you to talk to us 

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about the words that you use to 
sum up your work with horses, 

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soft and sound. 
Now we all want our horses to be

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sound and to move beautifully 
and be agile and we all want to 

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be soft kind horse people. 
But how do the 2 relate? 

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Wow, you've gone. 
You've gone right in for the nub

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of it, haven't you? 
I guess the more time I've spent

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with horses, it's so clear that 
you cannot extract their brain 

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from their body. 
And very often my background is 

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horsemanship and also French 
classical training. 

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A lot of the focus ostensibly is
on how horses move, how they 

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balance, their asymmetry, their 
weight bearing, posture, all of 

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those things that a horse needs 
if we want to ride them. 

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But they're not a push bike, you
know, they're also sentient 

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beings with their own ideas and 
their own emotional lives and 

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their own connection or not with
us. 

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And so the soft bit isn't really
about us being soft. 

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I think it's, and it's a funny 
word, soft because it's got so 

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many connotations around it. 
I think it's more about a 

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horse's okayness in their brain 
that relates to their okayness 

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in their body, because horses 
will do amazing things for 

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people with less than perfect, 
less than functional bodies when

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their brains are in a good 
place. 

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And the more I go on, I've ended
up specialising quite a lot in 

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kind of rehab and supporting 
horses with physical challenges,

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which the French classical work 
really lends itself to, the more

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aware I am that if the horse 
isn't mentally on side, you're 

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just doing stuff to them. 
And that's not to say that you 

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can't make big changes in their 
bodies through physical rehab 

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that doesn't really take into 
account their emotional 

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landscape. 
But I think everything is so 

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much easier when the horse feels
good on the inside about what 

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you're asking them to do on the 
outside. 

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So that's my passion and kind of
curiosity. 

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Wormhole, I guess is knowing 
that nobody ever is going to be 

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factory fitted perfect and that 
there's always going to be 

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things that we're going to be 
needing to help a horse with if 

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we want to ride them. 
Because that isn't their it's 

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not what they're evolved to do 
that how do we bring them 

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alongside mentally so that they 
are inspired by the movement 

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rather than being coerced into 
doing the movements And this is 

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AI think that's. 
That's summed it up beautifully.

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It's a really difficult subject 
to unpick, isn't it? 

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And very big questions to dive 
into. 

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But I do want to ask a ginormous
question in that how do you 

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achieve that without coercion 
for you when, when you step in 

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the arena, if we were to be 
having a lesson with you now, 

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Kate, how do you achieve that 
harmony with a horse so that it 

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does want to be ridden and work 
alongside us? 

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Well, I suppose the first thing 
is developing our objective 

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awareness around horses, so to 
try to see who the horse 

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actually is rather than who we 
want the horse to be, and 

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separating out our own stories 
and our own needs and desires 

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from who the horse is. 
Now, I'm pretty honest. 

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I want to ride horses. 
I, I have horses at this point 

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in my life and I may well change
because I do enjoy the act of 

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sitting on them. 
So I'm not yet at the point 

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where I feel like it's unethical
to ride horses, but where it can

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be a struggle for a horse 
because I actually think horses 

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are relatively straightforward. 
And what they want actually 

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above everything is clarity. 
But the challenge is for us to 

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know how to be clear with that 
horse. 

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Because each horse rocks up as a
individual. 

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And some of them want you to be 
very soft. 

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Some of them want you to be very
black and white. 

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Some of them want you to give 
them a minute. 

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Some of them want you to say, 
actually, let's get on with it 

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right now. 
Some of them I'm much more 

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inspired about moving out in the
world. 

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My newly imported Lucitano is 
like a different horse out on 

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Dartmoor than he is in the 
arena. 

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Really, the purpose of being out
in the world for him inspires a 

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quality of movement in him that 
as yet I can't elicit from him 

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in the arena. 
So I'm not giving up my idea of 

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this is my riding horse. 
I actually brought him because 

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I, I want to carry on my 
classical training with him. 

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But at the moment I'm trying to 
be led by him to say, OK, if you

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are most, you are most 
purposeful out there in the 

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world, then how can I build on 
that rather than trying to make 

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everything about what I want? 
So it's a, it's a really tough 

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call. 
And I think the first thing is 

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as a human developing our 
ability to stand back and 

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observe the horse without our 
stuff being attached to it, to 

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try to work out who is this 
creature, this unbelievable 

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creature. 
Actually, when you think about 

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what they managed to work out, 
you know, as a nonverbal herd 

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based flight animal who is prey,
what they agree to is quite 

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extraordinary. 
And really, when you sometimes 

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see what they managed to 
understand from very confusing, 

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very complicated, sometimes 
conflicting information from 

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people, they are incredible. 
But I, I guess that would be the

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first thing that I tried to get 
people to do is let's look at 

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that actual horse that's in 
front of us and take away my 

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story about needing to be liked 
by this horse or why I've bought

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this horse or any of these 
things And try to assess how do 

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they learn? 
What do they find interesting? 

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What provokes curiosity in them?
What movement do they enjoy? 

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Are they a horse that likes 
things to go slower or does that

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cause more worry in them? 
Are they a horse that likes 

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movement when they feel anxious 
so that you can start to show 

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the horse? 
I am going to ask you to solve 

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puzzles with me. 
You know, that's essentially 

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what we're doing when we're 
training horses, isn't it? 

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Is we're setting them a series 
of puzzles. 

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So I'm, I am going to say, look,
I've got questions that I'm 

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going to keep on asking you, but
I'm going to try my best to work

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out who you are and how you 
learn and what inspires you so 

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that I'm not constantly bumping 
up against a situation that you 

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don't enjoy. 
Because this isn't this isn't 

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who you are. 
You know, I'm misjudging who you

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are. 
So, and when we find ourselves 

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in interesting times, when you 
look on the Internet at the 

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moment, there's kind of a huge 
call for non escalating pressure

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in relation to relationship to 
horses, entirely consent based, 

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entirely trust based, whatever 
that means. 

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You know, there's a there's a 
lot of language out there around

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horses, but essentially what we 
are trying to do is train an 

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animal that actually is what it 
is. 

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And so I suppose it's how do we 
do it in a way that makes best 

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sense to them, that causes them 
Least Concern, that allows them 

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to feel really confident that 
we're going to allow them to 

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work things out, that they're 
not going to get in trouble for 

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not working things out. 
And that we are trying to see, 

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is this because you don't 
understand this? 

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Is this because you're in pain? 
Is this because you can't do 

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this? 
Or is it very often because I'm 

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a confusing human that's giving 
conflicting system, you know, 

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signals and asking you to go at 
the same time as I'm asking you 

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to slow? 
So yeah, that's in a not very 

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nutshelly nutshell what I think 
about it. 

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And that's exactly what we want 
on curious question because 

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immediately that's unlocked so 
many trails of thought. 

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Kate and I love that you mention
actually does this horse enjoy 

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its work? 
Does this horse want to be the 

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horse that you've bought it for,
do you think? 

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I mean, listening to you talk 
about understanding the horse in

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front of us, you know, we go to 
look at horses, don't we, when 

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we go to buy them and you have a
checklist of you must look for 

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this and you must look for that 
and you must get a vet check and

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et cetera, et cetera. 
But do you think that actually 

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people that are taking on a 
horse in their life, they need 

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to be more flexible in terms of 
a lot of horses are being passed

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from pillar to post because they
aren't the dressage horse they 

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turned out to be or they aren't.
You know, they don't enjoy the 

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endurance, right? 
Or they're not suited to show 

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jumping. 
Do you think actually owners 

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have a responsibility to 
actually look at what the horse 

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wants to do instead? 
I think there's two things there

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yes and I think we need to be 
much, much more honest about who

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we are. 
That's where the rub occurs is 

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if we go looking for I want this
height and this colour and this 

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skill set, you know, and to have
won this many rosettes, but 

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we're not standing back and 
thinking, but what do Ioffer in 

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return? 
You know, what life am I 

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actually able to give a horse 
and really what is my riding 

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ability and my interest levels? 
So I on the podcast that I do 

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with my friend Kathleen, we were
both talking about buying new 

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horses recently because we've 
both done this and I went 

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through a right old brain fangle
of what I really want is I 

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really want a Lucitano stallion.
That would be the thing, you 

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know, that because I want to go 
and do working equitation and, 

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you know, maybe then I could 
really progress on that field. 

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And then I had to stand back and
look at. 

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Hang on a second. 
Who are you really? 

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You spend most of your life 
cantering out over Dartmoor. 

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Your horses live in a herd. 
They mostly live out. 

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The truth is you don't travel 
all over the country competing. 

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Why do you suddenly think that 
that's going to happen? 

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Now it's not to say that doesn't
happen for people sometimes, but

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in the main, who we are when we 
buy the horse, we're probably 

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going to be that person in a 
year's time. 

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So it makes more sense to buy a 
horse who meets us more where we

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are now, maybe with a bit of 
potential for learning and 

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growth and development. 
But rather than thinking, oh, I 

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suspect in a couple of years 
time I'm going to be wanting to 

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jump, you know, massive cross 
country tracks all the time, 

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when right now what I'm actually
doing is the occasional hunter 

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trial. 
It makes a lot more sense and 

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it's a lot fairer to the horse 
to try to buy a horse that you 

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can offer something that matches
who they are. 

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So when I went to Portugal to 
look, there was 1 incredibly 

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fancy horse who was already, you
knew he was talent on legs. 

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And then the horse I bought was 
the one that when we went out 

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for a hack, I thought, oh, this 
horse loves this. 

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Like as soon as we got out the 
arena and we're out in the 

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world, he totally came to life 
and we had such a nice time 

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together. 
And I thought what I actually 

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need is a sensibly minded, 
good-natured horse who likes 

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exploring over talent. 
You know, for me that really is 

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more important. 
So there's that on the one side.

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And then I think there is also 
the honesty. 

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Sometimes you don't know a horse
until you get them home. 

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And we used to run a project 
here for young people who would 

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come up and do stuff with horses
and the land and that kind of 

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thing. 
And it wasn't therapeutic. 

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It was maybe equine assisted 
learning. 

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And we bought a horse who was a 
big heavy cob that we thought, 

224
00:14:33,480 --> 00:14:37,280
oh, he'll be brilliant for young
people's first experiences of 

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00:14:37,280 --> 00:14:39,440
sitting on. 
And he's got a lovely long mane 

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00:14:39,440 --> 00:14:41,080
and tail. 
So he loved to be groomed and 

227
00:14:41,080 --> 00:14:43,280
stuff and he absolutely hated 
it. 

228
00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:45,640
He did not like being pampered 
with at all. 

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00:14:45,640 --> 00:14:50,000
Like this is worst thing. 
Didn't like logging people 

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00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:54,680
round. 
And then one day we did a horse 

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00:14:54,680 --> 00:14:57,240
boarding session. 
I mean, when I look back, I 

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00:14:57,240 --> 00:15:00,600
think my, I'm not sure our 
insurance actually did cover 

233
00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:02,040
that, which was we had some 
harness. 

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00:15:02,040 --> 00:15:04,200
We did know somebody who knew 
how to drive. 

235
00:15:04,200 --> 00:15:05,880
So we taught him how to drive a 
bit. 

236
00:15:06,360 --> 00:15:09,440
And then kids hang on to the 
back while they stood on a 

237
00:15:09,440 --> 00:15:13,120
skateboard. 
And he absolutely loved it. 

238
00:15:13,120 --> 00:15:15,400
It was like, this is what I want
to do. 

239
00:15:16,320 --> 00:15:20,640
So he went off to a logging home
where he was delighted because 

240
00:15:21,080 --> 00:15:28,960
that actually was who he was. 
So I'd say 70% of the time when 

241
00:15:28,960 --> 00:15:32,720
things go amiss between a person
and a horse, it's probably 

242
00:15:32,720 --> 00:15:38,640
because the person misjudged who
they were and what they could 

243
00:15:38,640 --> 00:15:40,200
offer. 
They were very much thinking 

244
00:15:40,200 --> 00:15:43,200
about what they wanted from a 
horse, not maybe so much 

245
00:15:43,200 --> 00:15:45,440
thinking about what they could 
offer a horse. 

246
00:15:45,840 --> 00:15:49,400
And then there's 30% of the time
where it just is a mismatch and 

247
00:15:49,400 --> 00:15:51,800
you didn't know that until you 
got the horse. 

248
00:15:52,440 --> 00:15:56,920
And so then sometimes you have 
to be adaptable with that horse.

249
00:15:57,120 --> 00:15:59,960
Like the youngster that I was 
describing that I've just 

250
00:15:59,960 --> 00:16:03,600
imported. 
Whenever we can get out of the 

251
00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:08,360
arena, we are because he's so 
much happier. 

252
00:16:08,440 --> 00:16:11,400
He's much more content, much 
more interested when we're out 

253
00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:15,760
and about. 
So I am having to compromise my 

254
00:16:15,760 --> 00:16:19,400
desire to further my schooling, 
which I love, I'm having to 

255
00:16:19,400 --> 00:16:22,480
compromise on. 
But sometimes there is a point 

256
00:16:22,480 --> 00:16:26,440
as well where you just have to 
say I can't be flexible enough 

257
00:16:26,440 --> 00:16:31,600
without it starting to feel like
I might be resentful towards my 

258
00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:35,200
horse, and that's no good. 
So sometimes your horse just 

259
00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:37,720
needs to go and be somewhere 
else with somebody else and that

260
00:16:37,720 --> 00:16:41,560
could be the kindest thing you 
could do, which we find really 

261
00:16:41,560 --> 00:16:43,360
hard. 
I think particularly in the UK, 

262
00:16:43,360 --> 00:16:49,320
we have a home for life kind of 
mentality and it's great to 

263
00:16:49,320 --> 00:16:53,000
start like that. 
And it's great to kind of commit

264
00:16:53,000 --> 00:16:55,360
to the things I've just 
described. 

265
00:16:55,360 --> 00:16:58,680
You know, taking an an honest 
inventory of who I am, trying to

266
00:16:58,680 --> 00:17:01,160
come up with a very honest list 
of what I actually need from a 

267
00:17:01,160 --> 00:17:05,000
horse. 
But also then thinking I could 

268
00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:08,119
be 20 years, a long time 
miserable and this horse could 

269
00:17:08,119 --> 00:17:10,400
be if we're actually just a 
mismatch. 

270
00:17:11,560 --> 00:17:13,800
It's so interesting, isn't it, 
about getting the partnership 

271
00:17:13,800 --> 00:17:15,680
right. 
And of course you, you did nod 

272
00:17:15,680 --> 00:17:19,920
to the fact that whilst that is 
a ridden partnership, that's 

273
00:17:19,920 --> 00:17:22,040
where the the problems occur, 
isn't it? 

274
00:17:22,040 --> 00:17:26,280
If someone has space and time 
for a, a herd that you know can 

275
00:17:26,280 --> 00:17:29,520
be unridden or they can leisure 
ride, pleasure ride, whatever it

276
00:17:29,520 --> 00:17:32,680
might be without the pressures 
or the expectations, almost 

277
00:17:32,680 --> 00:17:34,400
those problems dissipate, don't 
they? 

278
00:17:34,400 --> 00:17:38,240
But whilst we buy horses for the
purpose of of needing them to be

279
00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:41,560
ridden and and to perform in 
some way, that's where that kind

280
00:17:41,560 --> 00:17:44,960
of toing and froing comes and 
and the problems have to be 

281
00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:50,280
ironed out. 
Yeah, I think most horses, if 

282
00:17:50,280 --> 00:17:54,160
they get the opportunity to live
out with friends in an 

283
00:17:54,160 --> 00:17:56,440
interesting place, that will do 
them. 

284
00:17:56,520 --> 00:18:00,040
You know, actually most horses 
are as long as they have, you 

285
00:18:00,040 --> 00:18:02,800
know, friends, freedom and 
forage, they're fine. 

286
00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:06,760
As you say, where the rob occurs
is when we get involved and say 

287
00:18:06,800 --> 00:18:09,920
I would like you to do these 
things that entail me being on 

288
00:18:09,920 --> 00:18:13,160
your back. 
So that's where we have to be 

289
00:18:13,160 --> 00:18:16,400
truthful with our selves about 
that really, don't we? 

290
00:18:16,400 --> 00:18:22,200
And if we don't have space to 
just stack up many contented 

291
00:18:22,200 --> 00:18:27,480
companion horses, then it's 
worth really taking the time and

292
00:18:27,480 --> 00:18:31,240
sometimes you know, with your 
instructor or your vet or kind 

293
00:18:31,240 --> 00:18:37,760
of trusted professionals to, to 
do an assessment of who actually

294
00:18:37,760 --> 00:18:39,280
am I and what have I got to 
offer. 

295
00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:43,640
And I love that because you've 
given almost a whole new chapter

296
00:18:43,640 --> 00:18:48,040
in A Buyer's Guide to finding 
your next horse about looking at

297
00:18:48,040 --> 00:18:50,600
that horse's personality and 
what you're offering them to 

298
00:18:50,600 --> 00:18:53,440
actually take a step back and 
actually take the spotlight off 

299
00:18:53,440 --> 00:18:56,560
you and what you want as the 
human that's going to ride. 

300
00:18:56,600 --> 00:18:58,800
And actually think, what am I 
offering this horse? 

301
00:18:58,800 --> 00:19:00,480
What is this horse going to 
bring? 

302
00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:02,680
Who is the horse, the 
personality of the character? 

303
00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:04,880
What do they enjoy? 
And I think that is a wonderful 

304
00:19:05,080 --> 00:19:07,080
approach to start any 
partnership. 

305
00:19:07,280 --> 00:19:09,360
And the more you were talking, 
Kate, I was thinking the more it

306
00:19:09,360 --> 00:19:12,280
does sound like matchmaking and 
in the way that we think about 

307
00:19:12,280 --> 00:19:15,360
relationships. 
But of course having a horse is 

308
00:19:15,360 --> 00:19:17,200
another relationship, but isn't 
it in our life? 

309
00:19:17,840 --> 00:19:20,720
And actually by calling them a 
horse in a way puts a barrier. 

310
00:19:20,920 --> 00:19:24,320
It is another, you know, soul to
soul relationship. 

311
00:19:25,320 --> 00:19:28,440
You could spend 30 years with 
that animal, you know, and like 

312
00:19:28,440 --> 00:19:31,640
in so the situation that I'm in,
I live with my horses and we 

313
00:19:31,640 --> 00:19:34,920
live in very close proximity. 
I spend more time with them 

314
00:19:35,280 --> 00:19:38,240
because I'm single as well with 
than any human. 

315
00:19:38,720 --> 00:19:42,000
So they're pretty intense, those
relationships. 

316
00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:45,880
And like you say, it's, I always
think it's so weird if you went 

317
00:19:45,880 --> 00:19:49,960
on a date, you wouldn't use that
one date to then make a decision

318
00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:51,800
about whether you were going to 
marry that person. 

319
00:19:52,160 --> 00:19:55,640
But with horses, that is kind of
the situation that we're in. 

320
00:19:55,640 --> 00:19:59,080
You know, you might get two or 
three viewings, but very often 

321
00:19:59,080 --> 00:20:02,440
not. 
So we have to try to do our 

322
00:20:03,040 --> 00:20:09,560
darndest to be as objective and,
yeah, honest about ourselves as 

323
00:20:09,560 --> 00:20:12,520
we possibly can be. 
And of course, sometimes the 

324
00:20:12,520 --> 00:20:15,720
horse that turns up isn't the 
horse that you viewed as well, 

325
00:20:15,880 --> 00:20:17,800
which is a whole nother. 
Sometimes. 

326
00:20:18,400 --> 00:20:20,720
Exactly. 
They had their best, their best 

327
00:20:20,720 --> 00:20:24,320
suit and their aftershave on for
the day, and then turns out 

328
00:20:24,320 --> 00:20:26,720
they're actually just a slob who
eats Rita picks in beds. 

329
00:20:28,120 --> 00:20:33,080
You never know, do you? 
Exactly. 

330
00:20:33,160 --> 00:20:35,000
Painting horror stories, can't 
we? 

331
00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:38,400
Oh, I love it, Kate, talk us 
through your approach when we 

332
00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:41,480
step in the arena with you. 
Your soft and sound approach. 

333
00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:45,240
What do you stand for when you 
teach any new client and their 

334
00:20:45,240 --> 00:20:46,960
horse? 
What can we get from you? 

335
00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:52,880
Well, I suppose my background 
originally was horsemanship so 

336
00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:58,840
and I, I really didn't intend to
end up working with horses. 

337
00:20:59,360 --> 00:21:02,760
I just had a couple of horses of
my own, you know that. 

338
00:21:03,040 --> 00:21:06,800
And then it was only through 
realising that I didn't know 

339
00:21:06,800 --> 00:21:11,440
what I was doing that I started 
to then get support from people 

340
00:21:11,440 --> 00:21:13,200
who were coming from a 
horsemanship perspective. 

341
00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:16,720
I was very lucky that there were
good people local to me. 

342
00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:25,480
And then through them, Tom 
Widdecombe was the chap that I 

343
00:21:25,800 --> 00:21:27,920
was introduced to, wrote a 
lovely book called Be With a 

344
00:21:27,920 --> 00:21:30,320
Horse. 
And they had started to become 

345
00:21:30,320 --> 00:21:33,320
interested in French classical 
training because they'd reached 

346
00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:35,560
a point with the horsemanship 
side of things. 

347
00:21:35,560 --> 00:21:38,600
And it appears they were quite 
early to the party. 

348
00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:41,160
Because if you go on the 
Internet now everybody's talking

349
00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:45,000
about this cohesion between 
horsemanship, particularly the 

350
00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:49,920
kind of Vaccaro school of or 
Buckaroo school of groundwork 

351
00:21:49,920 --> 00:21:51,920
and riding and the French 
classical system. 

352
00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:55,880
Because they had got to a point 
with the horsemanship where they

353
00:21:55,880 --> 00:22:00,800
knew that they needed to 
understand more about, well, 

354
00:22:00,800 --> 00:22:03,080
specifically in their case, 
balance. 

355
00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:08,680
How do you help horses to 
balance and how horses move and,

356
00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:11,880
and if you want to actually 
progress your training on from 

357
00:22:12,320 --> 00:22:14,440
actually, things feel pretty 
nice between me and my horse. 

358
00:22:14,440 --> 00:22:16,760
We're not pulling on each other.
This is good enough. 

359
00:22:17,040 --> 00:22:20,240
And then what? 
So I was fortunate that through 

360
00:22:20,240 --> 00:22:23,640
them I found the French 
classical school and 

361
00:22:23,640 --> 00:22:27,960
specifically for me, the Ecol de
Legerte, which is the school 

362
00:22:27,960 --> 00:22:31,120
that Philippe Carl founded, 
which I've been training in for 

363
00:22:31,120 --> 00:22:35,520
quite a long time now. 
And then I knew. 

364
00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:38,600
And it was just one of those 
things where you realise 

365
00:22:39,520 --> 00:22:41,880
somebody's asking if you can 
help them with your horse, their

366
00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:44,480
horse and then somebody else's. 
And then before you know it, 

367
00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:46,680
you're helping quite a lot of 
people with their horses. 

368
00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:54,760
I, I have kept my hand in, I'm a
like a guest lecturer at the 

369
00:22:54,760 --> 00:22:57,320
University of Exeter around 
young people's mental health. 

370
00:22:58,080 --> 00:23:02,280
Because I really feel like the 
human psychology side of things 

371
00:23:02,280 --> 00:23:06,600
is such a, such a big player in 
the horse human relationship 

372
00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:11,600
that I am very interested and 
keen to keep on bringing those 

373
00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:16,200
things together. 
So when somebody comes to me or 

374
00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:20,040
I go to them, it's very 
difficult to say what I would do

375
00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:22,320
when I go in the arena because 
sometimes it's prime. 

376
00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:25,360
You can see clearly. 
This is a foundational 

377
00:23:25,360 --> 00:23:27,560
horsemanship issue. 
You know, this horse doesn't 

378
00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:31,200
understand how to feel OK with a
person. 

379
00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:36,240
So we need to start right there 
with leading or groundwork or 

380
00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:38,600
how a horse feels about having 
its body touched. 

381
00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:41,520
Does a horse feel OK about 
things in its blind spots? 

382
00:23:41,520 --> 00:23:46,200
You know, all the things that a 
domesticated horse needs a human

383
00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:48,880
to help them with if they're 
going to live with us. 

384
00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:53,480
So it's not unusual for people 
to come saying they want to work

385
00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:58,080
on dressage or ridden stuff. 
And actually, as soon as they 

386
00:23:58,080 --> 00:24:00,520
come in the door, you think, 
whoa, no, it starts here. 

387
00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:04,640
You know, this horse doesn't 
understand how to feel OK in the

388
00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:06,160
halter. 
They don't understand how to 

389
00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:08,920
balance themselves when they're 
alongside you on the ground. 

390
00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:15,680
Or it might be that we can get 
to riding and then you're 

391
00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:19,720
looking at what are the things 
that a horse needs to be able to

392
00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:23,520
do to carry a rider and balance 
themselves and not injure 

393
00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:25,520
themselves. 
You know, how do we help a horse

394
00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:31,320
to at least stay sound, if not 
become more physically capable 

395
00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:36,600
and beautiful through work? 
And I mean, this is where I 

396
00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:39,120
think Philippe Carl was 
incredibly clever in terms of 

397
00:24:39,120 --> 00:24:41,840
his training cycle, which you 
can have a look at in his book 

398
00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:46,560
if you want to, but where he 
just gives you 3 things to kind 

399
00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:48,680
of assess. 
So when I'm first watching 

400
00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:50,280
somebody or sitting on their 
horse. 

401
00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:54,280
Also, something that we all had 
drummed into us was you need to 

402
00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:56,880
ride your students horses 
because you very often don't 

403
00:24:56,880 --> 00:24:59,200
know what's going on until you 
sit on a horse. 

404
00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:03,120
So that's a kind of a big part 
of it is you need to feel what's

405
00:25:03,120 --> 00:25:05,760
happening between a person and a
horse as well as watch what's 

406
00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:10,640
happening that you're trying to 
understand what what thing could

407
00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:13,000
ioffer this horse right now 
that's going to help the riding 

408
00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:14,800
experience be more pleasurable 
for them? 

409
00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:17,560
Is it that I need to help them 
with their balance? 

410
00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:19,800
Is it that I need to help them 
with relaxation? 

411
00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:21,760
Is it that I need to help them 
with impulsion? 

412
00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:24,440
Those are kind of the first 
three things you tend to look at

413
00:25:26,040 --> 00:25:29,000
with straightness being an 
all-encompassing. 

414
00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:32,680
If my horse is crooked in his 
body, he's going to find it very

415
00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:34,520
difficult to be balanced in his 
brain. 

416
00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:37,720
When they go wonky in their 
brain, they get very crooked in 

417
00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:42,840
their body. 
So you can do a kind of broad 

418
00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:45,640
sweep of what do I see is going 
on here? 

419
00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:50,040
That if I could help this horse 
with this, they're immediately 

420
00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:54,520
going to think, oh, OK, that 
feels better because horses are 

421
00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:57,560
always up for things feeling 
better. 

422
00:25:57,560 --> 00:26:01,480
There are a lot more 
straightforward than humans, you

423
00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:04,960
know, they don't. 
My friend Jane Pike says, how 

424
00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:06,920
often do you find yourself 
arguing against your own 

425
00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:08,840
happiness? 
Like that's such a human thing 

426
00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:10,800
to kind of argue against our 
happiness. 

427
00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:15,120
Horses don't do that. 
If it feels better, happy days, 

428
00:26:15,120 --> 00:26:20,880
I'll go with that. 
And but then sometimes it's a, 

429
00:26:21,520 --> 00:26:24,840
it's a human problem. 
And so sometimes we have to 

430
00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:28,880
actually start with what, what 
is it that the person is 

431
00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:33,960
experiencing or bringing to the 
table that is causing a rub for 

432
00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:36,960
them and their horse and almost 
invariably causing a rub in 

433
00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:38,360
other areas of their life as 
well. 

434
00:26:39,360 --> 00:26:42,480
So that's why it's difficult to 
say what would you get in a 

435
00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:47,480
lesson? 
Because it really depends on how

436
00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:49,680
the partnership are when they 
walked through the door that 

437
00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:52,240
day. 
And what you're bringing to the 

438
00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:54,960
table, But I love that you've 
got this approach that you will 

439
00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:57,040
slow it down or take it back to 
basics. 

440
00:26:57,040 --> 00:27:00,920
If actually you think you've got
a better idea of what needs 

441
00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:04,520
fixing than the person coming in
saying I want to work on X. 

442
00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:07,520
You know, how many times do we 
hear instructors just going 

443
00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:09,960
along with what they've been 
booked to teach? 

444
00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:12,360
They're there to do a jumping 
lesson or they're there to do a 

445
00:27:12,360 --> 00:27:16,360
dressage lesson, but you're 
actually catering the needs and 

446
00:27:16,360 --> 00:27:20,480
tailor making that session to 
the person that walks in the 

447
00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:23,160
arena that day. 
How do they take it, Kate? 

448
00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:24,000
I can imagine. 
I was just. 

449
00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:26,880
Going to say I've lost a few 
clients along the way I. 

450
00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:30,000
Was going to say that must get 
quite difficult actually, if 

451
00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:32,400
they're not ready to hear that 
they're in a certain mental 

452
00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:34,720
space or they've got, you know, 
some baggage they're bringing to

453
00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:39,520
the door. 
I would say I'm very fortunate 

454
00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:45,760
now that most of the people that
I work with know who I am and 

455
00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:48,760
what I do. 
A lot of them have read my book 

456
00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:53,160
so they've got, they're not 
coming completely blind to it. 

457
00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:58,080
I think early on and still 
occasionally, particularly when 

458
00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:00,160
people come because they hear 
you do French classical 

459
00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:03,320
training, that's where I 
sometimes have to give people a 

460
00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:08,080
health warning because I've also
was very fortunate that the 

461
00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:11,360
equine sports massage course 
happens down here locally. 

462
00:28:11,360 --> 00:28:15,080
So I trained on that as well 
because I wanted to know more 

463
00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:20,240
about horses bodies. 
I know that I have lost people 

464
00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:25,920
because you might say we can't 
work on this because, well, your

465
00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:29,280
horse doesn't feel OK about you 
just standing next to him. 

466
00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:33,160
How can we possibly be 
considering working on your 

467
00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:36,080
counter cancer? 
From my perspective, it's like 

468
00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:39,720
it's of no interest because the 
horse knows that you weren't 

469
00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:44,440
paying attention to that stuff. 
The other one that I'd know I've

470
00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:47,760
definitely lost clients around, 
but very often they come back 

471
00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:52,240
later is when you say I think 
your horse might not be feeling 

472
00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:59,320
OK in their body and or maybe 
your saddle doesn't suit, which 

473
00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:02,960
can be really hard for people to
hear when they've had a master 

474
00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:06,840
saddler do fit the saddle or 
they've had vets who've said no,

475
00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:11,160
this horse is perfectly fine. 
I do think more and more people 

476
00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:13,960
are aware that that is a 
possibility. 

477
00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:18,440
You know, there's a healthy wave
of information out there for us 

478
00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:21,720
all to read now about the fact 
that horses may be trying to 

479
00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:26,080
tell us that they hurt. 
But those conversations are 

480
00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:29,000
never easy because none of us 
want to hear them, you know, 

481
00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:33,360
usually because we really care 
for a horse and we don't want 

482
00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:35,760
to. 
I have to acknowledge that they 

483
00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:38,040
might be in pain and I don't 
know what to do about it. 

484
00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:40,960
Or maybe I've been riding them 
with feet that are out of 

485
00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:43,640
balance. 
You know, it's, it's not, it's 

486
00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:50,000
not an easy path to walk being 
an instructor that doesn't, that

487
00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:54,120
doesn't just want to provide a 
product or an outcome for the 

488
00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:56,800
person. 
But like I said, it's pretty 

489
00:29:56,800 --> 00:30:01,120
rare now that when people come 
to me, they don't know who I am 

490
00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:03,680
and what I do. 
So, and that's not to say we 

491
00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:06,080
don't have difficult 
conversations, you know we do, 

492
00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:13,240
but most people that come want 
they want to know how to improve

493
00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:14,720
the situation for them and their
horse. 

494
00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:17,840
Do you think, Kate, this is 
what's been missing from 

495
00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:21,240
lessons? 
You know, decades ago it was 

496
00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:24,440
just turn up, ride the horse, 
get off and and off you go. 

497
00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:27,720
Now it seems to be that 
conversations are opening up 

498
00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:31,160
about the horses, about what's 
going on in the background. 

499
00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:34,680
Do you think almost lessons 
should be a bit of a therapy 

500
00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:37,880
session for the partnership 
going in? 

501
00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:41,520
I don't know if I'd call it 
therapy because we probably have

502
00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:44,080
to be quite careful because 
we're not therapists. 

503
00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:47,880
But I would say many, many 
riding instructors, if you ask 

504
00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:51,480
them, would say part of my job 
is being a counsellor. 

505
00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:55,360
I think it's a really 
interesting and challenging 

506
00:30:55,360 --> 00:30:59,680
place actually, because if we 
look back at how things were for

507
00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:06,880
horses and humans historically, 
most of it had a military slant.

508
00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:12,200
You know, a lot of historical 
riding came from a military 

509
00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:16,320
perspective. 
In the UK we don't have a riding

510
00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:19,280
Academy in the same way that 
they do in France and Portugal 

511
00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:21,600
and Spain. 
So we don't have that academic 

512
00:31:22,080 --> 00:31:26,080
background. 
We have going very fast, jumping

513
00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:28,280
big hedges. 
You know, that's the tradition 

514
00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:32,520
of riding in the UK. 
And we have to remember that it 

515
00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:37,800
was primarily men. 
So now most people I come into 

516
00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:42,160
contact with are women. 
Most people have a horse not to 

517
00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:44,360
go to battle on. 
You know, most of them are 

518
00:31:44,360 --> 00:31:46,520
coming because they want to have
an enjoyable time with the 

519
00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:54,080
horse. 
But I think there could be, you 

520
00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:56,920
have to be careful that you 
don't make your horse your 

521
00:31:56,920 --> 00:31:59,560
therapist. 
You know, it's, I think that's 

522
00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:01,920
absolutely. 
We need more conversations. 

523
00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:04,560
Most of us don't want didactic 
teaching where we're just told 

524
00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:07,160
what to do. 
In fact, I reckon I meet a lot 

525
00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:11,480
of people who, with a small T, 
were traumatized by early riding

526
00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:16,000
experiences of, you know, the 
way that many of us were taught.

527
00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:20,000
Yes. 
Usually by a ferocious lady that

528
00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:22,360
you didn't question. 
Exactly. 

529
00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:25,080
Yeah. 
Smoking AB and H and shouting at

530
00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:25,680
you. 
Yes. 

531
00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:30,640
When you look so it is shocking,
isn't it? 

532
00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:33,680
To some of the teacher, not all 
the teacher, but some of the 

533
00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:39,880
teaching is unbelievable. 
Yeah, so and that, but we have 

534
00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:42,600
to be careful to not throw the 
baby out with the bathwater 

535
00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:47,800
because what I believe is there 
is stuff you we need to go away 

536
00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:51,960
and look at away from our horse.
Our horses will reveal things to

537
00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:57,560
us about us that your teacher 
might observe, help you observe,

538
00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:01,560
but it's then not your horse's 
responsibility to sort that out 

539
00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:03,800
for you. 
You know, that is where we might

540
00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:06,720
then say, oh, I think you need 
to go and speak to somebody else

541
00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:09,920
about this. 
It's why I'm just about to 

542
00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:13,240
launch a coaching course with 
somebody because I feel like 

543
00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:17,440
there are things here that are 
outside of my skill set. 

544
00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:19,800
I'm not a trained coach. 
I'm not a therapist. 

545
00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:25,760
I do know relatively well how to
train horses. 

546
00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:29,320
I'm not somebody who's 
repeatedly produced horses to a 

547
00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:32,880
high level of high school, but I
can help most people train their

548
00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:36,280
horse to a serviceable, 
functional level. 

549
00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:39,920
You know, a big passion of mine 
is riding out. 

550
00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:42,800
I think it's a very skilled 
thing that we can do with 

551
00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:48,960
horses, but there is a mindset 
and a way of being that our 

552
00:33:48,960 --> 00:33:53,640
horses really appreciate us 
coming to them with that. 

553
00:33:53,640 --> 00:33:57,880
They might show us you need to 
deal with this, but it's not a 

554
00:33:57,880 --> 00:34:00,360
riding instructors 
responsibility to sort it. 

555
00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:02,080
So I don't know if that makes 
sense, Amanda. 

556
00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:04,760
It's like, yes, we need to have 
more conversations. 

557
00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:08,239
We need to move away from just 
having somebody yell kick on, 

558
00:34:08,239 --> 00:34:10,400
kick on, you know, from the 
corner of the school. 

559
00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:15,800
But, and I, you know, the riding
school that I've worked with 

560
00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:21,760
closely, Burkhart in Somerset, 
she's remarkable in terms of the

561
00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:23,480
quality of teaching that she 
gives. 

562
00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:27,040
And I think many more riding 
schools are trying to do that, 

563
00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:30,360
trying to see this is about a 
partnership. 

564
00:34:30,360 --> 00:34:33,520
There is a human here who also 
has learning needs, who, you 

565
00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:35,960
know, also might need things 
explained differently to them. 

566
00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:38,880
Who isn't coming to a lesson to 
do a bad job. 

567
00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:42,159
Nobody is coming to a lesson to 
try to be crap, are they? 

568
00:34:42,159 --> 00:34:44,000
You know, they're coming to do 
their best. 

569
00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:49,840
So that's excellent that more 
and more people are realising I 

570
00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:51,679
might need to adapt my teaching 
style. 

571
00:34:51,679 --> 00:34:54,159
I might need to be aware that 
I've got 2 emotional bodies in 

572
00:34:54,159 --> 00:34:55,960
the arena. 
That, you know, that these are 

573
00:34:55,960 --> 00:35:01,000
both creatures, we're all just 
creatures of who are bringing 

574
00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:05,360
their own stuff with them. 
Horses are typically a lot more 

575
00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:10,640
straightforward because they are
not storytelling creatures in 

576
00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:14,320
the same way that humans are. 
So they don't have that 

577
00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:20,960
narrative that dogs people. 
But it's at what point do you 

578
00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:25,360
say, OK, but, and but this is a 
riding lesson. 

579
00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:28,880
And so I would really suggest 
that you go and get coaching or 

580
00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:31,760
mentoring or therapy alongside 
this. 

581
00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:36,920
And I have seen some of my 
students do that and it has been

582
00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:41,720
transformational then. 
And then I get to witness a 

583
00:35:41,720 --> 00:35:44,640
totally different thing going on
between them and their horse 

584
00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:50,000
because they have set about, OK,
I also need to support myself. 

585
00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:53,400
And actually, that isn't my 
horse's responsibility. 

586
00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:56,520
Absolutely. 
And also recognizing in yourself

587
00:35:56,520 --> 00:36:00,400
that actually if you're having a
bad day mentally, emotionally, 

588
00:36:00,560 --> 00:36:02,800
don't get on your horse. 
You know, I learned that in the 

589
00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:05,480
pandemic. 
You know, if you're having a 

590
00:36:05,480 --> 00:36:08,480
really rough time and you're 
dealing with things that are 

591
00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:11,720
going on behind the scenes, 
don't go and have a lesson or, 

592
00:36:11,800 --> 00:36:14,600
you know, don't ride your horse,
maybe go and groom your spend 

593
00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:17,200
time with yours, groom your 
horse or, you know, go out for 

594
00:36:17,200 --> 00:36:19,160
what? 
Go out in hand hacking. 

595
00:36:19,240 --> 00:36:22,560
You know, you don't have to get 
on if you're not in that mental 

596
00:36:22,560 --> 00:36:25,560
space so often. 
And I know I can think back into

597
00:36:25,560 --> 00:36:28,920
the past, you know, when I had 
set lessons on set days where I 

598
00:36:28,920 --> 00:36:31,800
was riding with people and you 
feel that pressure that 

599
00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:34,160
whatever's going on, I must ride
that day. 

600
00:36:34,160 --> 00:36:36,840
I can't let down the instructor.
I can't let down my friends. 

601
00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:39,920
We've all got a hack booked. 
You know you must go and 

602
00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:43,440
actually the last thing you want
to do is be in a competitive 

603
00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:46,920
scenario or be in a situation 
where you have to perform to a 

604
00:36:46,920 --> 00:36:49,160
certain level. 
You might need to take it easy 

605
00:36:49,160 --> 00:36:51,720
on yourself that day and 
actually knowing when to 

606
00:36:51,720 --> 00:36:54,560
recognise a day you're up for it
and a day you're not. 

607
00:36:55,920 --> 00:36:58,720
Well, 100%. 
And I think that's why if you 

608
00:36:58,720 --> 00:37:01,720
have invested in your 
horsemanship groundwork skills, 

609
00:37:02,480 --> 00:37:05,240
there are so many things that 
are available to you that don't 

610
00:37:05,240 --> 00:37:10,680
involve riding. 
So it does it massively opens up

611
00:37:10,720 --> 00:37:15,240
a world of possibilities that 
can mean you do a check in of 

612
00:37:15,240 --> 00:37:19,960
yourself and think today I'm 
feeling a bit tight or, you 

613
00:37:19,960 --> 00:37:22,680
know, a bit upset or a bit 
distracted or whatever. 

614
00:37:23,080 --> 00:37:27,760
I firmly believe that walking is
one of the greatest selves that 

615
00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:31,280
humans have available to them. 
You know, we are creatures who 

616
00:37:31,280 --> 00:37:35,000
are designed to walk. 
We're we're born to move. 

617
00:37:36,160 --> 00:37:38,880
So going for a walk with your 
horse. 

618
00:37:40,280 --> 00:37:42,440
There's this study that I've 
talked about before and I wish 

619
00:37:42,440 --> 00:37:44,360
she'd done it with horses. 
There's a lady called Doctor 

620
00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:46,840
Kelly Mcgonigal who wrote a book
called The Joy of Movement. 

621
00:37:46,840 --> 00:37:52,720
It's really beautiful and she 
talks about how our brain 

622
00:37:52,720 --> 00:37:59,760
releases endocannabinoids when 
we cover long distances for 

623
00:37:59,800 --> 00:38:04,200
sustained periods of time. 
And we do it more when we do it 

624
00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:08,360
in company and they track the 
brains of various other animals.

625
00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:10,560
And it didn't show up. 
I can't remember what it was. 

626
00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:12,640
It was something hilarious like 
a ferret. 

627
00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:16,000
But it did the same pattern 
showed up in dogs. 

628
00:38:16,280 --> 00:38:20,240
So when dogs move together in 
that trot, trot, slow trotting, 

629
00:38:20,240 --> 00:38:23,840
so it wasn't sprinting it where,
you know, it's like sustained 

630
00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:28,560
purposeful movement together 
that they have the same thing 

631
00:38:28,560 --> 00:38:30,840
that your brain is kind of 
trying to say, come on, Kitty, 

632
00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:33,920
Kitty, Kitty, keep moving. 
So it has this internal reward 

633
00:38:33,920 --> 00:38:36,720
system. 
And so if you can do that with 

634
00:38:36,720 --> 00:38:43,160
your horse, I my suspicion is 
horses probably have got some 

635
00:38:43,280 --> 00:38:47,160
and I've done know this is an 
absolute guesswork. 

636
00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:48,840
I'm not a neuroscientist around 
horses. 

637
00:38:48,840 --> 00:38:50,880
You'd have to ask Doctor Stephen
Peters about this one, wouldn't 

638
00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:53,160
you? 
But whether they have some 

639
00:38:53,560 --> 00:38:58,280
internal feel good chemical that
gets released from hovering 

640
00:38:58,280 --> 00:39:02,400
distances together as well. 
So I always think that, yeah, if

641
00:39:02,400 --> 00:39:08,440
you can walk together, both of 
you will be getting internal. 

642
00:39:08,440 --> 00:39:11,680
You know, for us, it's they 
know, it's basically what you 

643
00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:14,800
know you get from cannabis. 
Is that feel good? 

644
00:39:16,240 --> 00:39:20,200
Yeah, chemical that. 
But you don't get it from short 

645
00:39:20,200 --> 00:39:22,640
bursts of energy. 
You get it from going together 

646
00:39:22,760 --> 00:39:25,440
for long periods of time. 
But you need to have spent the 

647
00:39:25,440 --> 00:39:29,080
time showing your horse how to 
be LED, how to keep you safe on 

648
00:39:29,080 --> 00:39:30,920
the ground, how to keep 
themselves on the ground, what 

649
00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:34,240
to do if something concerns 
them, all of those things. 

650
00:39:34,560 --> 00:39:37,240
That means on the day where you 
think I don't feel like riding 

651
00:39:37,240 --> 00:39:40,480
today, you can go for a walk 
with your horse and you can both

652
00:39:40,480 --> 00:39:41,720
get a lot out of it. 
Oh. 

653
00:39:42,320 --> 00:39:45,280
I think I'm so glad you 
mentioned that the that chemical

654
00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:48,200
feeling, you know, that we feel 
as well, because walking with my

655
00:39:48,200 --> 00:39:52,520
horse in the countryside is one 
of my, I think my most favorite 

656
00:39:52,520 --> 00:39:55,280
thing to do in the world. 
You know, I grew up that you 

657
00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:59,680
ride horses and I came to 
groundwork later in life and 

658
00:39:59,760 --> 00:40:02,920
discovered walking with my horse
in the pandemic, much, much to 

659
00:40:02,920 --> 00:40:05,440
my horsey friends shock, you 
know, hang on, we're going 

660
00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:07,360
hanging. 
Why are you walking with you 

661
00:40:07,360 --> 00:40:10,480
know, we're going hacking. 
Anna and I would walk with my 

662
00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:13,880
mare with other horses being 
ridden and we would go out for 

663
00:40:13,880 --> 00:40:17,560
four hours and I would walk and 
got very, very fit as well. 

664
00:40:18,080 --> 00:40:21,400
And so did my mare and it. 
It was just the most joyous 

665
00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:23,800
experience and I anyone 
listening who hasn't tried it 

666
00:40:23,800 --> 00:40:27,040
before, it is the most beautiful
experience. 

667
00:40:27,160 --> 00:40:29,680
You learn to trust your horse in
a whole new way because you're 

668
00:40:29,680 --> 00:40:31,800
side by side. 
You're not on top. 

669
00:40:31,800 --> 00:40:35,080
You are having to navigate the, 
the challenges of the 

670
00:40:35,080 --> 00:40:38,800
countryside or the roads. 
In fact, walking side by side, 

671
00:40:38,800 --> 00:40:41,440
you, you learn a whole new 
respect for your horse and your 

672
00:40:41,440 --> 00:40:44,360
horse to you as well. 
And wow, what an experience. 

673
00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:46,480
And we keep it up to this day. 
You know, it is one of my 

674
00:40:46,480 --> 00:40:48,240
favorite things in the world to 
do. 

675
00:40:48,520 --> 00:40:51,200
If not my, my, you know, that's 
well, if I've got a free day, 

676
00:40:51,200 --> 00:40:54,560
that's what I want to do. 
That's so sweet. 

677
00:40:54,920 --> 00:40:58,200
I also think, I mean, other than
everybody stopping and saying 

678
00:40:58,200 --> 00:41:00,200
you're right, love, you had a 
fall, you know, because people 

679
00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:01,480
can't get their head out. 
Why are you walking? 

680
00:41:01,520 --> 00:41:02,160
Shouldn't you? 
Be right. 

681
00:41:02,160 --> 00:41:03,480
Shouldn't you be right in that 
thing? 

682
00:41:03,480 --> 00:41:05,080
Yeah. 
Why are you walking your door? 

683
00:41:06,160 --> 00:41:10,040
Yeah, exactly. 
But I also think, you know, 

684
00:41:10,040 --> 00:41:14,080
before I back a young horse, I 
spent hours walking out with 

685
00:41:14,080 --> 00:41:17,920
them so that they have 
experienced going from a leading

686
00:41:17,920 --> 00:41:19,720
position to being an ascending 
position. 

687
00:41:19,720 --> 00:41:22,920
So that they've they've 
developed a relationship with 

688
00:41:22,920 --> 00:41:25,960
you out in the world before you 
get on them and then say, and 

689
00:41:25,960 --> 00:41:27,480
now you're a bit more 
responsible. 

690
00:41:27,480 --> 00:41:30,520
I think there's so much in it. 
So you're right. 

691
00:41:30,520 --> 00:41:34,400
And you never come back from a 
walk with your horse feeling 

692
00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:37,800
worse than when you set out. 
Did you always feel better? 

693
00:41:38,040 --> 00:41:39,920
Yeah, those endorphins. 
That is where I say. 

694
00:41:40,040 --> 00:41:43,080
That that chemical chemistry, 
there's something going on 

695
00:41:43,080 --> 00:41:44,920
there. 
And then like you say, I'd love 

696
00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:48,080
to know that science about the 
partnership of walking together 

697
00:41:48,480 --> 00:41:52,000
because there is whatever it is 
that you feel inside, there is a

698
00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:56,240
magic because, you know, that 
horse could take one step or one

699
00:41:56,240 --> 00:41:59,400
lunge to the side and crush you,
you know, quite really steady. 

700
00:41:59,840 --> 00:42:02,080
Or a lorry comes by. 
You could both end up in a 

701
00:42:02,080 --> 00:42:04,840
ditch, but you don't. 
And you are walking and you're, 

702
00:42:04,840 --> 00:42:07,680
you know, traversing the terrain
wherever it go, whether it's, 

703
00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:10,200
you know, it's bridal parcel, 
whether it's road work or 

704
00:42:10,360 --> 00:42:12,800
Woodlands or country, whatever 
it might be. 

705
00:42:13,240 --> 00:42:15,920
There is a. 
Real magic there about the sort 

706
00:42:15,920 --> 00:42:18,840
of vulnerability, that 
vulnerable space we're standing 

707
00:42:18,840 --> 00:42:22,880
in as being the sort of very 
fragile humans next to the, you 

708
00:42:22,880 --> 00:42:26,680
know, magnificent beasts. 
But that that partnership of 

709
00:42:26,680 --> 00:42:29,920
walking out and I think even the
fact, like you say, you get 

710
00:42:30,120 --> 00:42:33,920
weird looks, you get criticism, 
you get judgement and it feels 

711
00:42:33,920 --> 00:42:36,640
quite empowering. 
I feel, you know, actually we're

712
00:42:36,640 --> 00:42:38,720
changing the space of 
horsemanship. 

713
00:42:38,920 --> 00:42:43,040
You don't have to be lunging or 
long reigning or riding. 

714
00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:44,960
You can just walk with your 
horse. 

715
00:42:44,960 --> 00:42:47,560
You know, maybe in the future we
might all go out on a dog walk 

716
00:42:47,560 --> 00:42:49,840
and see everyone walking their 
horses. 

717
00:42:49,840 --> 00:42:52,520
Now that would be a world I'd 
love to see. 

718
00:42:54,360 --> 00:42:58,520
I mean, I think the big problem 
for a lot of people is access to

719
00:42:59,640 --> 00:43:04,560
outdoor spaces, isn't it? 
Because I know traffic is a real

720
00:43:04,560 --> 00:43:08,760
problem, you know, and it's not 
your horse can be very clear how

721
00:43:08,760 --> 00:43:12,120
to respond to traffic, but 
traffic isn't always clear about

722
00:43:12,120 --> 00:43:14,520
how to be respectful of horses, 
is it? 

723
00:43:14,520 --> 00:43:18,200
So it's, it's challenging 
because I know the young horse I

724
00:43:18,200 --> 00:43:19,720
was telling you about is damaged
his shoulder. 

725
00:43:19,720 --> 00:43:22,480
He's got what looks like a minus
Sweeney. 

726
00:43:22,480 --> 00:43:24,720
So they start to get muscle 
atrophy in their shoulder. 

727
00:43:25,520 --> 00:43:30,640
And I'm really fortunate because
of where I live, so I live right

728
00:43:30,640 --> 00:43:33,160
in the middle of Dartmoor 
National Park, so we can get off

729
00:43:33,160 --> 00:43:36,280
road straight away. 
And my vet said the best thing 

730
00:43:36,280 --> 00:43:41,400
you can do is take him out up 
onto the mall because what he 

731
00:43:41,400 --> 00:43:46,480
needs to do is really redevelop 
his proper sets of qualities 

732
00:43:46,480 --> 00:43:50,680
around that shoulder and leg. 
And if I didn't have that, I 

733
00:43:50,680 --> 00:43:53,840
would have to be doing similar 
things over poles in the arena. 

734
00:43:53,840 --> 00:43:58,520
And that absolutely has its 
benefit, but I don't think it 

735
00:43:58,520 --> 00:44:02,000
has so much, I don't think 
there's so much goodness in 

736
00:44:02,000 --> 00:44:04,800
there as when you're actually 
getting out and doing that 

737
00:44:04,880 --> 00:44:06,760
exploration of the world 
together. 

738
00:44:07,160 --> 00:44:11,120
And they see the points of it. 
Why do I have to work out how to

739
00:44:11,120 --> 00:44:14,000
place my feet and how to balance
myself? 

740
00:44:14,400 --> 00:44:16,080
It's because it's really clear 
to me. 

741
00:44:16,080 --> 00:44:18,840
The surfaces are changing, the 
gradients are changing. 

742
00:44:19,040 --> 00:44:22,560
I have to move around this. 
It's harder for a horse, I 

743
00:44:22,560 --> 00:44:27,160
think, to see the points of 
walking over poles not, but 

744
00:44:27,160 --> 00:44:28,680
sometimes that's the best you've
got. 

745
00:44:28,680 --> 00:44:33,560
So then we just have to use 
whatever we can to make that as 

746
00:44:33,560 --> 00:44:35,480
interesting as possible for a 
horse, don't we? 

747
00:44:35,560 --> 00:44:37,560
Oh totally. 
It's like us in the gym, you 

748
00:44:37,560 --> 00:44:40,560
know, we can go into a four, you
know, 4 walled, white walled gym

749
00:44:40,560 --> 00:44:42,480
and be like, what's the point of
this exercise? 

750
00:44:42,680 --> 00:44:46,200
You go out on a three hour walk 
and you're going up hills, you 

751
00:44:46,200 --> 00:44:48,400
know, which is really helping 
your leg muscles and you're 

752
00:44:48,400 --> 00:44:51,600
building your muscles up. 
You know, you can suddenly see 

753
00:44:51,960 --> 00:44:54,280
the benefits of exercise, can't 
you? 

754
00:44:54,320 --> 00:44:57,560
And how great you feel and you 
can see your body shaping up and

755
00:44:57,560 --> 00:45:00,480
yet you're just walking and 
going across different terrain. 

756
00:45:00,480 --> 00:45:03,240
You know, if you can do some 
hill work, just amazing for you 

757
00:45:03,240 --> 00:45:06,440
and your horse walking up those 
hills, you know, moving to 

758
00:45:06,440 --> 00:45:09,720
Suffolk and seeing the flat 
land, a bit disturbing. 

759
00:45:09,880 --> 00:45:11,760
It's so flat. 
I'm like. 

760
00:45:11,840 --> 00:45:13,480
I'm looking. 
For my hills, you know, we're 

761
00:45:13,480 --> 00:45:15,640
driving around the I think, 
right, there's a hill we're 

762
00:45:15,640 --> 00:45:18,480
going to walk that, that because
it's quite, you know, we come 

763
00:45:18,480 --> 00:45:20,240
from Kent, which is quite hilly,
you know. 

764
00:45:20,560 --> 00:45:24,840
So then working with what you've
got, I walk my mare out round 

765
00:45:24,840 --> 00:45:26,760
busy roundabouts on the main 
road. 

766
00:45:26,760 --> 00:45:29,920
People look on me in horror. 
Why are you taking a horse 

767
00:45:29,920 --> 00:45:32,760
around a roundabout? 
Because we don't have access to 

768
00:45:32,760 --> 00:45:34,280
a beautiful bridle path, you 
know. 

769
00:45:34,520 --> 00:45:36,160
Please give. 
US1 we don't. 

770
00:45:36,160 --> 00:45:38,800
So we're going to go round that 
Main Rd. roundabout, we're going

771
00:45:38,800 --> 00:45:41,480
to walk and we're going to have 
the traffic beeping us and 

772
00:45:41,480 --> 00:45:44,480
piling up behind us and shouting
all sorts of abuse, but we're 

773
00:45:44,480 --> 00:45:47,360
going to do it because we are 
entitled to be on that road just

774
00:45:47,360 --> 00:45:52,120
as anyone else's. 
Yeah, but it's why we have to 

775
00:45:52,200 --> 00:45:56,880
give our horse skills as well as
empathy. 

776
00:45:56,920 --> 00:45:58,400
It's not. 
I mean, I think this is the 

777
00:45:59,080 --> 00:46:03,320
funny little seesaw that we can 
see playing out on the Internet 

778
00:46:03,320 --> 00:46:05,080
all the time at the moment of 
this. 

779
00:46:05,400 --> 00:46:09,000
Like I said, to begin with, you 
know, no pressure, only consent 

780
00:46:09,000 --> 00:46:15,040
based all of that stuff moving 
away from a very you will do 

781
00:46:15,040 --> 00:46:19,000
what you're told horse style of 
training, which is absolutely 

782
00:46:19,000 --> 00:46:21,440
appropriate. 
You know, the more we go on, the

783
00:46:21,440 --> 00:46:25,320
more we realize, you know, maybe
even plants have their own 

784
00:46:25,320 --> 00:46:30,720
intelligence that we're starting
to clock how very blinkered we 

785
00:46:30,720 --> 00:46:35,000
are to the natural world. 
And but I think if we're going 

786
00:46:35,000 --> 00:46:37,520
to put horses in domesticated 
situations and like you 

787
00:46:37,520 --> 00:46:40,080
described going round 
roundabouts, my horses were, you

788
00:46:40,080 --> 00:46:42,800
know, out on the road this 
morning, fast delivery drivers, 

789
00:46:43,280 --> 00:46:47,600
dogs barking at gates, cows, all
of those things, then we can't 

790
00:46:47,600 --> 00:46:51,120
leave it to the horse to work 
out what am I supposed to do in 

791
00:46:51,120 --> 00:46:54,200
this situation as a herd animal 
that you've taken me away from 

792
00:46:54,200 --> 00:46:57,280
my herd, as a flight animal that
you're saying you can't run, You

793
00:46:57,280 --> 00:47:01,320
know, and as a prey animal that 
is constantly checking what 

794
00:47:01,320 --> 00:47:04,520
might happen to them. 
So to my mind, it's this. 

795
00:47:05,320 --> 00:47:09,440
You need both, you know, you 
need to understand that they are

796
00:47:09,440 --> 00:47:14,840
a feeling animal who is trying 
to do their best always with 

797
00:47:14,840 --> 00:47:19,280
what they know and that we have 
a massive responsibility to 

798
00:47:19,280 --> 00:47:23,360
train them basically to show 
them, you know, when these 

799
00:47:23,360 --> 00:47:26,440
things happen in the world, this
is what it is that you need to 

800
00:47:26,440 --> 00:47:30,840
do. 
And it's our brains find that a 

801
00:47:30,840 --> 00:47:33,920
hard dichotomy to balance 
because we want either or. 

802
00:47:34,440 --> 00:47:36,720
And actually, I think what 
horses need is both. 

803
00:47:37,480 --> 00:47:40,320
Yes, and isn't it interesting, 
you know, any good teacher of 

804
00:47:40,320 --> 00:47:44,720
humans or trainer of humans is 
has now developed the approach, 

805
00:47:44,720 --> 00:47:49,400
hopefully we hope in 2026 that 
they are empathetic and kind and

806
00:47:49,400 --> 00:47:54,160
gentle and calm, but also have 
the ability to teach us the 

807
00:47:54,160 --> 00:47:56,960
right skills. 
And I mean discipline sounds 

808
00:47:56,960 --> 00:47:58,760
harsh, doesn't it? 
I don't mean it in a physical 

809
00:47:58,760 --> 00:48:02,720
sense, but put us in our place 
if we if we step out of line or 

810
00:48:02,720 --> 00:48:05,960
if we give a bit of attitude or,
you know, any good teacher of 

811
00:48:05,960 --> 00:48:09,880
humans, perhaps, would you say 
we need to have similar skills 

812
00:48:09,880 --> 00:48:12,040
with horses? 
We're not all that different. 

813
00:48:12,040 --> 00:48:15,480
There's got to be that balance 
of you're going to learn, but 

814
00:48:15,480 --> 00:48:17,760
we're going to be kind and 
empathetic and gentlemen, we're 

815
00:48:17,760 --> 00:48:20,520
going to have a a partnership 
and a relationship. 

816
00:48:22,080 --> 00:48:26,840
I suppose it's that you would 
try to explain to students. 

817
00:48:28,600 --> 00:48:31,560
I used to work in special 
education, and I remember the 

818
00:48:31,560 --> 00:48:35,160
head teacher of the school that 
I worked in saying it's not 

819
00:48:35,160 --> 00:48:40,960
actually vital for most of these
students to learn trigonometry, 

820
00:48:41,280 --> 00:48:44,120
but it is vital that they learn 
how to not punch somebody in the

821
00:48:44,120 --> 00:48:46,400
supermarket. 
It's, you know, like, how do you

822
00:48:46,400 --> 00:48:50,400
get along in the world is 
something that as adults we're 

823
00:48:50,400 --> 00:48:54,480
trying to support kids to 
understand is those skills are 

824
00:48:54,480 --> 00:48:56,160
actually the most important 
skills. 

825
00:48:56,160 --> 00:48:58,080
It's like, how do you make 
friends? 

826
00:48:58,920 --> 00:49:01,400
How do you learn how to learn? 
How do you learn how to follow 

827
00:49:01,400 --> 00:49:05,120
your interests? 
How do you learn but not to 

828
00:49:05,120 --> 00:49:08,160
swear at people when you get 
angry and you know how to work 

829
00:49:08,160 --> 00:49:11,720
that stuff out for yourself? 
That's really what I feel we 

830
00:49:11,720 --> 00:49:15,680
should be trying to gift all 
horses is, look, I've chosen to 

831
00:49:15,680 --> 00:49:18,640
put you in this situation even 
when people talk about, well, I 

832
00:49:18,640 --> 00:49:22,760
rescued the horse, yeah, but you
still made the choice is, you 

833
00:49:22,760 --> 00:49:24,600
know, this. 
The horse is still choiceless in

834
00:49:24,600 --> 00:49:26,360
this. 
Even when you've rescued them, 

835
00:49:26,920 --> 00:49:29,720
it's still you that has decided 
where they live, which friends 

836
00:49:29,720 --> 00:49:32,880
they live with, whether they go 
in or out, you know, all of that

837
00:49:32,880 --> 00:49:36,480
stuff. 
So then we need to, as you just 

838
00:49:36,480 --> 00:49:39,400
described there, as 
compassionately as we can 

839
00:49:39,400 --> 00:49:43,040
explain to them, this is how not
to kick the farrier or foot 

840
00:49:43,040 --> 00:49:46,280
trimmer, you know, this is how 
to be the horse that the vet 

841
00:49:46,280 --> 00:49:51,920
wants to come back and see. 
This is, I always think if I had

842
00:49:51,920 --> 00:49:56,160
a queue of people lining up for 
my horses when I died, I'd feel 

843
00:49:56,160 --> 00:49:57,720
like I'd done as good a job as I
could. 

844
00:49:57,720 --> 00:50:00,120
And none of them need to be 
doing flying changes or live 

845
00:50:00,120 --> 00:50:03,520
hard for that. 
They all just need to be a horse

846
00:50:03,520 --> 00:50:06,560
that people think, oh, this 
horse is nice to be around. 

847
00:50:06,560 --> 00:50:09,840
You know, they, they understand 
how to communicate with people. 

848
00:50:10,120 --> 00:50:11,880
They understand how to keep 
people safe. 

849
00:50:11,880 --> 00:50:13,880
They understand how to keep 
themselves safe. 

850
00:50:14,600 --> 00:50:19,080
Those are lessons that I think 
we owe it to horses rather than 

851
00:50:19,080 --> 00:50:23,840
thinking I'll just be completely
horse LED and let the horse work

852
00:50:23,840 --> 00:50:29,480
everything out because they 
didn't ask to be in this life. 

853
00:50:29,560 --> 00:50:32,680
We we bred them into it 
basically, didn't we? 

854
00:50:32,840 --> 00:50:36,440
So I feel like, yeah, what you 
just described there, what does 

855
00:50:36,480 --> 00:50:39,960
a good, the teachers that you 
remember from school that you 

856
00:50:40,080 --> 00:50:44,840
enjoyed learning from made you 
feel safe, made you feel able to

857
00:50:44,840 --> 00:50:48,920
get things wrong and not be in 
trouble, but you also wanted to 

858
00:50:48,920 --> 00:50:53,640
have a reciprocally respectful 
relationship with them. 

859
00:50:53,640 --> 00:50:57,080
They didn't make you feel small 
and stupid and therefore you 

860
00:50:57,080 --> 00:50:59,120
didn't want to say terrible 
things to them. 

861
00:51:00,000 --> 00:51:01,840
So it's the set, you know. 
It's like you said it's. 

862
00:51:02,160 --> 00:51:06,360
We are our horses teacher as 
well as their friends as well as

863
00:51:06,360 --> 00:51:09,200
their partner. 
Oh, I love it. 

864
00:51:09,200 --> 00:51:12,640
I love that we're delving into 
this, Kate, and you mentioned 

865
00:51:12,640 --> 00:51:15,280
about good teaching. 
Tell us about some of the 

866
00:51:15,320 --> 00:51:17,840
mentors that have inspired you 
because you've travelled the 

867
00:51:17,840 --> 00:51:20,480
world and I love that you didn't
set out to be a trainer. 

868
00:51:20,480 --> 00:51:23,160
It kind of found you. 
But tell us about some of those 

869
00:51:23,160 --> 00:51:26,720
life changing moments and things
that you learnt from some of the

870
00:51:26,720 --> 00:51:36,400
mentors in your life. 
I mean, I suppose I, I am so 

871
00:51:36,400 --> 00:51:41,160
grateful for the input of Tom 
and Sarah Widdecombe, who I 

872
00:51:41,160 --> 00:51:47,360
still live on their farm now, 
because they taught me a lot 

873
00:51:47,360 --> 00:51:50,880
about horses that I didn't know 
in terms of what kind of an 

874
00:51:50,880 --> 00:51:55,680
animal a horse really is. 
You know, I really have my eyes 

875
00:51:55,680 --> 00:52:01,560
opened in a way. 
But yeah, it did change my life 

876
00:52:01,560 --> 00:52:06,040
in about who is a horse. 
I had, I had no idea before that

877
00:52:06,040 --> 00:52:08,840
and I had no idea of how things 
could really feel between a 

878
00:52:08,840 --> 00:52:16,920
person and a horse. 100% 
Philippe Carl obviously has had 

879
00:52:16,920 --> 00:52:25,840
a huge impact on my life because
of his understanding of how to 

880
00:52:26,280 --> 00:52:30,600
logically train a horse. 
And as somebody I'd never, I'd 

881
00:52:30,600 --> 00:52:33,480
never had a, I'd never done a 
dressage competition. 

882
00:52:33,800 --> 00:52:36,880
I'd really just hacked around. 
I'd had a few lessons and then I

883
00:52:37,120 --> 00:52:42,880
basically found Tom and Sarah. 
And then for whatever reason I 

884
00:52:42,880 --> 00:52:45,280
went and watched his first 
instructor training course and I

885
00:52:45,280 --> 00:52:48,000
was teaching quite a lot at that
point, but very much 

886
00:52:48,000 --> 00:52:52,840
horsemanship based work. 
We all had to audition for the 

887
00:52:52,840 --> 00:52:58,080
course and it was horrendous. 
But he did invite me and Dez, 

888
00:52:58,080 --> 00:53:00,360
the my older Lucy Tanner, who 
has still got to come on the 

889
00:53:00,360 --> 00:53:02,880
horse and I'd on the course. 
Rather. 

890
00:53:03,120 --> 00:53:07,000
I don't think anybody else who 
was on the course, who all were 

891
00:53:07,320 --> 00:53:10,760
VHS instructors or who'd ridden 
to a very high level, you know, 

892
00:53:10,760 --> 00:53:15,360
professional event riders, that 
kind of thing, realized what a 

893
00:53:15,360 --> 00:53:18,200
novice I actually was. 
I don't think I did either. 

894
00:53:18,200 --> 00:53:21,000
You know, you look back and 
think, if I'd really clocked 

895
00:53:21,000 --> 00:53:24,800
what I was doing, I would never 
have gone for that because, and 

896
00:53:24,800 --> 00:53:27,120
who the hell was I to be on that
course? 

897
00:53:27,400 --> 00:53:29,440
It's only now that I say to 
people, I didn't really know 

898
00:53:29,440 --> 00:53:31,920
which diagonal to rise on. 
And that is not, you know, a 

899
00:53:31,920 --> 00:53:37,440
word of a lie that I didn't. 
I, I kind of knew how to make 

900
00:53:37,440 --> 00:53:40,920
things feel nice between me and 
a horse, but that was it. 

901
00:53:41,680 --> 00:53:45,720
Anything I was able to show him 
at that point in my audition, a 

902
00:53:45,720 --> 00:53:48,280
bit of lateral work. 
I kind of knew how to ride. 

903
00:53:48,280 --> 00:53:51,800
Good transitions were just from 
watching his videos and from 

904
00:53:51,800 --> 00:53:57,400
having watched other people. 
I suppose what he has gifted me 

905
00:53:57,400 --> 00:54:03,440
and so many other people is the 
ability to understand what 

906
00:54:03,440 --> 00:54:08,840
different horses need and then 
how to use a logical approach to

907
00:54:08,840 --> 00:54:11,640
training. 
So he's so big on you. 

908
00:54:11,640 --> 00:54:14,080
Do not use woolly language. 
You do you. 

909
00:54:14,080 --> 00:54:17,200
You have to understand what 
you're saying, how it affects 

910
00:54:17,200 --> 00:54:19,800
that horse's body and why you're
doing it. 

911
00:54:19,800 --> 00:54:23,640
So you can't talk a game that 
doesn't relate to what's 

912
00:54:23,640 --> 00:54:27,400
actually going on. 
And and he I, I wouldn't say he 

913
00:54:27,400 --> 00:54:30,960
was the easiest teacher. 
You know, he's pretty direct. 

914
00:54:30,960 --> 00:54:35,360
And as I subsequently found out,
I was having to play a massive 

915
00:54:35,360 --> 00:54:39,400
game of catch up. 
But I love his. 

916
00:54:39,440 --> 00:54:41,360
You need to be able to explain 
it. 

917
00:54:41,480 --> 00:54:45,800
You know that in the equestrian 
world, there's so much amorphous

918
00:54:45,800 --> 00:54:50,840
blumongy chats around horses 
even, you know, somebody will 

919
00:54:50,840 --> 00:54:53,880
tell you if you're having 
lessons, do this, do this. 

920
00:54:53,880 --> 00:54:56,240
And then if they do get on your 
horse, which is quite rare, then

921
00:54:56,240 --> 00:54:58,000
they get on and do something 
completely different because 

922
00:54:58,000 --> 00:54:59,720
they don't even know what it is 
that they're doing. 

923
00:55:00,480 --> 00:55:06,240
So I think from him I really got
that is like really understand 

924
00:55:06,240 --> 00:55:09,600
what it is that you're teaching 
and find the simplest way to 

925
00:55:09,600 --> 00:55:12,600
explain it to somebody. 
You don't teach somebody by 

926
00:55:12,600 --> 00:55:15,160
confusing them, you teach them 
by gifting them. 

927
00:55:15,800 --> 00:55:18,960
Knowledge basically, how 
refreshing you, you say that 

928
00:55:18,960 --> 00:55:22,280
Kate, just to jump in because 
how often does a an instructor 

929
00:55:22,280 --> 00:55:24,960
say, oh, you need to correct 
this and then you'll come out 

930
00:55:24,960 --> 00:55:27,400
again and do that move again and
you won't have done anything 

931
00:55:27,400 --> 00:55:29,720
different because you're not 
really sure what they said and 

932
00:55:29,720 --> 00:55:32,640
they've got oh, nailed it, 
smashed it, you know, brilliant 

933
00:55:32,800 --> 00:55:34,600
on to the next thing. 
And you think, well, I've got no

934
00:55:34,600 --> 00:55:37,040
clue what's just been said. 
What you know, I didn't do 

935
00:55:37,040 --> 00:55:39,640
anything differently. 
So I'm so glad you've said that 

936
00:55:39,640 --> 00:55:42,760
as well with the level that you 
ride at and and train at Kate as

937
00:55:42,760 --> 00:55:45,720
well, kind of debunking that 
feeling that so many of us feel.

938
00:55:45,920 --> 00:55:48,760
But you're almost too scared to 
say anything in the lesson. 

939
00:55:49,080 --> 00:55:50,160
Yeah. 
And what did you really mean? 

940
00:55:50,160 --> 00:55:51,520
Well, it's like. 
The Emperor's New clothes. 

941
00:55:51,880 --> 00:55:53,720
But no, but it's the emperor's 
new clothes thing, isn't it? 

942
00:55:53,720 --> 00:55:57,280
It's like, oh, OK, everybody 
else here must understand what's

943
00:55:57,280 --> 00:56:00,440
going on and it must just be me.
That's the thicky that doesn't 

944
00:56:00,440 --> 00:56:03,000
understand. 
And the one dressage clinic I'd 

945
00:56:03,000 --> 00:56:07,960
been to before I started riding 
directly with PK was exactly 

946
00:56:07,960 --> 00:56:11,080
that experience of but what's 
happening? 

947
00:56:11,080 --> 00:56:14,360
I don't understand why now this 
person's pleased and a minute 

948
00:56:14,360 --> 00:56:18,080
ago they weren't pleased. 
Whereas when you ride with 

949
00:56:18,080 --> 00:56:21,840
Philip Karl, he's so clear, this
is the thing that I'm looking 

950
00:56:21,840 --> 00:56:24,080
for. 
This is how you ask for it. 

951
00:56:24,080 --> 00:56:26,080
If it doesn't happen, this is 
the thing that you're going to 

952
00:56:26,080 --> 00:56:28,760
try instead. 
So it's like a real kind of 

953
00:56:30,560 --> 00:56:33,040
shocker block way of learning to
ride. 

954
00:56:33,040 --> 00:56:37,520
And the French school is, you 
know, Beauchet was about kind of

955
00:56:38,520 --> 00:56:40,800
dividing the horse into pieces 
and then putting it back 

956
00:56:40,800 --> 00:56:43,160
together again, which is 
artificial in terms of how a 

957
00:56:43,160 --> 00:56:45,320
horse's body works. 
But I think it was as much for 

958
00:56:45,320 --> 00:56:50,160
the person, OK, you're going to 
teach these separated aids so 

959
00:56:50,160 --> 00:56:52,400
that then you can start to put 
them back together. 

960
00:56:52,440 --> 00:56:56,080
And like now when I think about 
the things I'm working on at 

961
00:56:56,280 --> 00:57:03,720
home, you know, stuff that I net
like flying changes and PF and 

962
00:57:03,720 --> 00:57:07,520
various things with my older 
horse, I think how did I do 

963
00:57:07,520 --> 00:57:09,600
this? 
And I only did it because he 

964
00:57:09,600 --> 00:57:13,640
explained these are the things 
that you put in place so that 

965
00:57:13,640 --> 00:57:16,800
then actually the more advanced 
stuff is not difficult. 

966
00:57:17,000 --> 00:57:19,480
You know, if your horse 
understands those things, it's 

967
00:57:19,480 --> 00:57:22,680
the foundations that's tricky. 
It's the foundations that takes 

968
00:57:22,680 --> 00:57:26,600
the time to get all of those 
really understood and easy for 

969
00:57:26,600 --> 00:57:28,760
your horse. 
Then you can just start to slot 

970
00:57:28,760 --> 00:57:31,120
them together and think, oh 
sweet, now this bit isn't 

971
00:57:31,120 --> 00:57:34,720
difficult. 
So I really thank him for that. 

972
00:57:35,240 --> 00:57:38,760
And then most recently when he 
retired from travelling so much,

973
00:57:38,760 --> 00:57:42,360
his one of his master teachers, 
a lady called Sylvia Stossel, a 

974
00:57:42,440 --> 00:57:45,200
Swiss lady, comes over and 
teaches us on the instructor 

975
00:57:45,200 --> 00:57:49,480
course now. 
And she has really, really 

976
00:57:49,480 --> 00:57:54,120
helped me to understand the 
female body on a horse because 

977
00:57:54,120 --> 00:57:56,000
it is quite different than the 
male body. 

978
00:57:56,480 --> 00:58:00,320
So she helped me with things 
that I was grappling with for 

979
00:58:00,320 --> 00:58:04,840
years, which prompted me as well
to go and spend quite a lot of 

980
00:58:04,840 --> 00:58:09,640
time learning with Jane Pike, 
nervous system based coach in 

981
00:58:09,640 --> 00:58:15,000
New Zealand, but who you can 
learn with online to really 

982
00:58:15,000 --> 00:58:17,880
understand quite a lot of 
instructions that we get about 

983
00:58:17,880 --> 00:58:21,760
how to manage our body as riders
are based on the male body, 

984
00:58:21,760 --> 00:58:24,640
which functions very differently
than the female body. 

985
00:58:25,080 --> 00:58:27,560
You know, our, our pelvises are 
completely different. 

986
00:58:28,560 --> 00:58:31,160
Our the lumbar spine is very 
often completely different. 

987
00:58:31,280 --> 00:58:34,200
Our arms work differently. 
You know our arms are designed 

988
00:58:34,200 --> 00:58:37,360
to carry babies, not to throw 
stuff, so. 

989
00:58:37,520 --> 00:58:39,360
Seriously. 
I didn't know that. 

990
00:58:39,360 --> 00:58:42,400
Yeah. 
Yeah, so you know the I mean, I 

991
00:58:42,440 --> 00:58:45,840
this is one of those very woolly
sauces again, but I did read 

992
00:58:45,840 --> 00:58:50,120
somewhere in a book, but the the
thoracic sling of the female 

993
00:58:50,120 --> 00:58:52,320
form is designed to be able to 
carry. 

994
00:58:53,080 --> 00:58:57,560
Whereas obviously the it's why 
when boys mock you for not being

995
00:58:57,560 --> 00:59:01,000
able to throw, it's because our 
shoulders just aren't designed 

996
00:59:01,000 --> 00:59:03,960
to do the same things as theirs.
So we need to. 

997
00:59:04,000 --> 00:59:06,240
And Sylvia wasn't this specific 
about some of this stuff. 

998
00:59:06,320 --> 00:59:10,560
I went away and learned it was 
that she was just very gentle in

999
00:59:10,560 --> 00:59:12,640
terms of the reason you are 
struggling with some of these 

1000
00:59:12,640 --> 00:59:17,800
things is because you need to 
understand your body better and 

1001
00:59:17,800 --> 00:59:23,240
your body is not a male body 
that also many saddles, not all,

1002
00:59:23,240 --> 00:59:25,640
but that many saddles. 
The twist is designed for the 

1003
00:59:25,640 --> 00:59:29,160
male pelvis as well. 
So we're up against it on all 

1004
00:59:29,160 --> 00:59:32,720
fronts. 
So that that really helped. 

1005
00:59:32,840 --> 00:59:36,160
And then they're just, you know,
they've been great friends that 

1006
00:59:36,160 --> 00:59:37,680
I have learnt from along the 
way. 

1007
00:59:37,680 --> 00:59:41,480
I've spent a lot of time Co 
teaching with another leisure to

1008
00:59:41,480 --> 00:59:44,880
instructor called Nicky Stevens 
and and Nicky's like an old 

1009
00:59:44,880 --> 00:59:48,760
school horse woman and she knows
everything about every horse. 

1010
00:59:49,080 --> 00:59:51,800
And I've learnt so much from 
somebody coming from a very 

1011
00:59:51,800 --> 00:59:56,280
different background to mine who
can help me look at a horse's 

1012
00:59:56,280 --> 01:00:00,080
body and think, oh, the reason 
that horse finds that difficult 

1013
01:00:00,360 --> 01:00:02,120
is because of the way their body
is put together. 

1014
01:00:02,400 --> 01:00:04,960
And nobody had ever really 
talked to me about that in the 

1015
01:00:04,960 --> 01:00:07,040
level of detail that she's 
helped me to see. 

1016
01:00:07,040 --> 01:00:12,000
So, you know, and then of 
course, of course, every horse 

1017
01:00:12,000 --> 01:00:17,200
I've come into contact with. 
But probably the one I think 

1018
01:00:17,200 --> 01:00:19,880
most people are aware that I 
have had the most challenges 

1019
01:00:19,880 --> 01:00:22,960
with, but who I'm eternally 
grateful for is my older Luso 

1020
01:00:22,960 --> 01:00:27,000
Des. 
So I'm very, very, very grateful

1021
01:00:27,000 --> 01:00:31,720
that he has not ditched me at 
some point through my many 

1022
01:00:31,720 --> 01:00:34,920
shoddy learning attempts. 
And it's just kept showing up 

1023
01:00:34,920 --> 01:00:37,880
again. 
Say, OK, she's come back with 

1024
01:00:37,880 --> 01:00:39,680
some new idea today, let's go 
with this. 

1025
01:00:40,280 --> 01:00:42,560
So, yeah, him as well. 
We've been together for quite a 

1026
01:00:42,560 --> 01:00:46,240
long time now, so there are 
probably plenty of other people 

1027
01:00:46,240 --> 01:00:48,600
as well, but those are some of 
the main ones. 

1028
01:00:49,160 --> 01:00:51,960
And so inspiring to hear. 
And in a minute, we're going to 

1029
01:00:51,960 --> 01:00:53,520
take you behind the scenes, 
Kate. 

1030
01:00:53,520 --> 01:00:55,320
We're going to ask you some 
listener questions. 

1031
01:00:55,320 --> 01:00:57,720
Just some quick fire Q&A 
listener questions. 

1032
01:00:57,720 --> 01:01:00,880
OK. 
But before we do that, it's just

1033
01:01:00,880 --> 01:01:05,360
been such a wonderful session 
with you, such a wonderful hour 

1034
01:01:05,360 --> 01:01:09,440
of inspiring chat, really 
unpicking, you know, us, the 

1035
01:01:09,440 --> 01:01:13,320
horse, the partnership, the 
lesson space, teaching and what 

1036
01:01:13,320 --> 01:01:16,720
we need. 
But going back to you and soft 

1037
01:01:16,720 --> 01:01:20,520
and sound and choosing the word 
and also the way of being in 

1038
01:01:20,520 --> 01:01:24,960
terms of being soft in the 
equestrian world that, you know,

1039
01:01:25,080 --> 01:01:28,840
traditionally speaking is seen 
as weak or certainly was seen as

1040
01:01:28,840 --> 01:01:32,160
weakness, being soft. 
Did you choose that word in that

1041
01:01:32,160 --> 01:01:35,560
approach for that as a direct 
kind of counterbalance to that 

1042
01:01:35,560 --> 01:01:38,040
methodology and that way of 
thinking? 

1043
01:01:38,040 --> 01:01:40,320
Oh. 
Hannah, I think you're crediting

1044
01:01:40,320 --> 01:01:41,880
me with being brighter than I 
actually am now. 

1045
01:01:41,920 --> 01:01:44,120
I think it was probably just 
that's. 

1046
01:01:44,400 --> 01:01:48,120
What I've got from our session 
together, that's clearly why 

1047
01:01:48,120 --> 01:01:49,960
Kate's gone for the soft 
approach I. 

1048
01:01:50,040 --> 01:01:54,440
Think it was a long time ago and
I think what it actually was, it

1049
01:01:54,440 --> 01:01:57,040
was when me and my friend Sarah 
Whitaker were running courses 

1050
01:01:57,040 --> 01:01:59,120
together. 
I think it was probably more 

1051
01:01:59,120 --> 01:02:03,760
about the blend of horsemanship,
which had a focus on softness, 

1052
01:02:04,160 --> 01:02:07,160
and the classical riding, which 
had a focus on soundness. 

1053
01:02:07,440 --> 01:02:10,400
So I don't think I was being 
inspired enough to think that I 

1054
01:02:10,400 --> 01:02:13,560
was setting myself up to say, 
look, there's an there's an 

1055
01:02:13,560 --> 01:02:17,440
alternative approach. 
And like I said, I'm kind of, 

1056
01:02:17,480 --> 01:02:20,440
I'm very grateful for it because
people I think understand it and

1057
01:02:20,440 --> 01:02:22,600
like it. 
Softness, it's a, it's a funny 

1058
01:02:22,600 --> 01:02:25,400
old word because it can mean so 
many different things to so many

1059
01:02:25,400 --> 01:02:27,520
people. 
But I certainly don't think it 

1060
01:02:27,520 --> 01:02:32,680
means weakness. 
And vulnerability is one of the 

1061
01:02:33,600 --> 01:02:36,440
greatest things that we can 
bring to life anyway, isn't it? 

1062
01:02:36,440 --> 01:02:38,880
So that, I think is a strength. 
If you think that softness means

1063
01:02:38,880 --> 01:02:41,280
being vulnerable, well, good. 
Oh. 

1064
01:02:41,560 --> 01:02:43,840
I love it. 
I hate those old sayings that, 

1065
01:02:43,840 --> 01:02:47,680
oh, they're a bit soft. 
She's a bit soft, you know, in 

1066
01:02:47,680 --> 01:02:50,080
that kind of critical way of 
thinking and in that more 

1067
01:02:50,080 --> 01:02:52,640
traditional approach with horses
that we saw, you know, 

1068
01:02:52,640 --> 01:02:54,840
particularly generations ago, 
hopefully not now. 

1069
01:02:54,840 --> 01:02:58,120
But, you know, that it had to be
a more sort of strict way with 

1070
01:02:58,120 --> 01:02:59,600
horses and that you couldn't be 
soft. 

1071
01:02:59,600 --> 01:03:02,440
You had to be the boss and all 
those kind of manchas that were 

1072
01:03:02,440 --> 01:03:04,760
sort of passed down the 
generations. 

1073
01:03:05,120 --> 01:03:10,400
But actually, hopefully, do you 
see in 2026, Kate, a different 

1074
01:03:10,400 --> 01:03:12,840
approach for horses now? 
Do you see that kind of opening 

1075
01:03:12,840 --> 01:03:16,280
up that vulnerability in people 
that they want to change for 

1076
01:03:16,280 --> 01:03:19,040
their horse, not just for their 
for their own performance, but 

1077
01:03:19,040 --> 01:03:24,160
for their horse? 
100% I think, like I said, where

1078
01:03:24,160 --> 01:03:27,760
we have to be cautious is it 
doesn't swing too far the other 

1079
01:03:27,760 --> 01:03:31,520
way and that we end up with a 
lot of confused, unsure, 

1080
01:03:31,680 --> 01:03:36,920
unguided horses or horses who 
expected to be a counsellor for 

1081
01:03:36,920 --> 01:03:38,720
people because they're not that 
as well. 

1082
01:03:39,120 --> 01:03:44,120
But I keep wondering about and 
often write about why have we 

1083
01:03:44,120 --> 01:03:46,320
got them? 
You know, like we don't need 

1084
01:03:46,320 --> 01:03:50,240
them at all anymore. 
But there is clearly something 

1085
01:03:50,360 --> 01:03:54,680
particularly maybe in the 
Western psyche that needs that 

1086
01:03:54,680 --> 01:03:59,800
connection with wildness or with
something that just isn't us in 

1087
01:03:59,800 --> 01:04:03,120
a way that is very different 
than most domesticated creatures

1088
01:04:03,840 --> 01:04:09,120
that we, we want, we want them 
in our lives for something other

1089
01:04:09,120 --> 01:04:11,320
than just winning prizes and 
controlling them. 

1090
01:04:11,360 --> 01:04:14,920
I, I mean, I can't speak to 
modern day dressage. 

1091
01:04:14,920 --> 01:04:16,840
I don't think things have 
changed much there. 

1092
01:04:17,120 --> 01:04:21,000
There isn't every time I watch a
bit of it, I think, oh, I think 

1093
01:04:21,000 --> 01:04:22,760
I just need to go wash my eyes 
out a second. 

1094
01:04:22,760 --> 01:04:26,600
So I don't see it massively 
improving at that level yet. 

1095
01:04:26,840 --> 01:04:31,040
But I think at grass roots where
most people have a horse in 

1096
01:04:31,040 --> 01:04:37,280
their life because primarily of 
partnership, that's not to say 

1097
01:04:37,280 --> 01:04:39,720
they don't want to go out 
competing and fun rides and all 

1098
01:04:39,720 --> 01:04:42,800
those kind of things, but most 
of them aren't doing it to make 

1099
01:04:42,800 --> 01:04:46,880
a living out of horses. 
A lot of people are standing 

1100
01:04:46,880 --> 01:04:49,960
back, I think, and considering 
things from the horses 

1101
01:04:49,960 --> 01:04:53,000
perspective. 
And that might mean I need to be

1102
01:04:53,000 --> 01:04:56,360
clearer, you know, actually, 
that might mean I need to be a 

1103
01:04:56,360 --> 01:04:59,080
better, more compassionate 
leader for my horse. 

1104
01:04:59,720 --> 01:05:04,040
I might need to be a bolder 
advocate on my horse's behalf. 

1105
01:05:04,040 --> 01:05:08,600
But at least it's people are 
trying to understand. 

1106
01:05:08,920 --> 01:05:11,200
I don't think my horse is just 
being naughty. 

1107
01:05:11,200 --> 01:05:13,440
You know, I don't think my horse
is just trying to get out of 

1108
01:05:13,440 --> 01:05:16,600
work or get one over on me. 
I do those. 

1109
01:05:16,600 --> 01:05:19,440
It's not so difficult to have 
those conversations with people 

1110
01:05:19,440 --> 01:05:21,760
now looking at you like you're 
from Mars. 

1111
01:05:21,760 --> 01:05:26,160
You know, I think there is a, 
there is a bigger understanding 

1112
01:05:26,160 --> 01:05:29,120
that. 
Oh, they're just a creature like

1113
01:05:29,120 --> 01:05:33,480
I am who sometimes doesn't 
understand what's going on or is

1114
01:05:33,480 --> 01:05:37,600
in pain or is unsure or doesn't 
like this thing it's being asked

1115
01:05:37,600 --> 01:05:39,200
to do. 
And that's a really good thing. 

1116
01:05:39,200 --> 01:05:42,760
And. 
No one knows the future, Kate, 

1117
01:05:42,760 --> 01:05:47,480
so just take this with a pinch 
of salt, but how long do you 

1118
01:05:47,480 --> 01:05:51,480
think or when do you think we're
going to see that shift from 

1119
01:05:51,720 --> 01:05:55,200
these kind of conversations from
grassroots up to that top level 

1120
01:05:55,200 --> 01:05:57,600
dressage? 
Can you see a change coming on 

1121
01:05:57,600 --> 01:06:02,160
the horizon? 
I don't know, but I think we 

1122
01:06:02,160 --> 01:06:07,920
need to be careful because if it
doesn't change, the non equine 

1123
01:06:07,920 --> 01:06:11,680
public look at it and think this
doesn't look very nice for 

1124
01:06:11,680 --> 01:06:14,200
horses. 
You know, people who don't know 

1125
01:06:14,200 --> 01:06:21,920
anything about horses very often
can see, I don't think it's nice

1126
01:06:21,920 --> 01:06:24,680
when a horse has blood on its 
flanks because somebody's been 

1127
01:06:24,680 --> 01:06:28,080
spurring it so hard, or why has 
that person got that horse's 

1128
01:06:28,080 --> 01:06:31,160
head in that position? 
But the challenge is going to be

1129
01:06:31,160 --> 01:06:37,640
that if it doesn't change at the
public level, then our whole 

1130
01:06:37,680 --> 01:06:41,360
industry, for want of a better 
word, will get tarred with the 

1131
01:06:41,360 --> 01:06:44,200
same brush of it is cruel to 
ride horses. 

1132
01:06:44,200 --> 01:06:49,320
You know, it is cruel for people
to have horses, as, you know, 

1133
01:06:49,320 --> 01:06:51,840
whatever domesticated animals in
their lives. 

1134
01:06:52,600 --> 01:06:56,640
So I feel that. 
I mean, as my friend. 

1135
01:06:57,000 --> 01:06:59,840
Oh, Kathleen, I'm really sorry I
didn't mention Kathleen Beckham 

1136
01:06:59,840 --> 01:07:02,080
and Karen Moussong. 
Those are two women who've been 

1137
01:07:02,320 --> 01:07:04,280
instrumental in changing things 
for me. 

1138
01:07:04,280 --> 01:07:06,120
So Kathleen and I have worked 
together for years. 

1139
01:07:06,720 --> 01:07:09,080
And her big thing is you have to
hit people in their pockets. 

1140
01:07:09,360 --> 01:07:12,480
And so the only way that you 
bring about change is by 

1141
01:07:12,840 --> 01:07:15,200
tracking the money and then 
changing the money. 

1142
01:07:15,560 --> 01:07:18,200
So, you know, changing where the
money goes. 

1143
01:07:18,480 --> 01:07:23,920
And so it's only by getting 
sponsors to pull out really if 

1144
01:07:23,920 --> 01:07:28,440
that you'll start to maybe get 
people at those levels to think 

1145
01:07:29,040 --> 01:07:31,760
people don't like what I'm doing
because the judges keep telling 

1146
01:07:31,760 --> 01:07:35,240
them they're doing a good job. 
So they're not going to not get 

1147
01:07:35,240 --> 01:07:38,320
good rewards at that level. 
And we are breeding these 

1148
01:07:38,320 --> 01:07:43,400
spectacular horses that you can 
ride a very early age doing 

1149
01:07:43,480 --> 01:07:47,400
incredible things with bodies 
that are almost non functional 

1150
01:07:47,400 --> 01:07:51,680
in terms of their level of 
hypermobility and too muchness. 

1151
01:07:53,080 --> 01:07:56,200
You know, if I look at I see 
Dartmoor ponies everyday. 

1152
01:07:56,480 --> 01:07:59,240
They don't look much like those 
big old warm bloods that you see

1153
01:07:59,240 --> 01:08:01,720
hammering around the you know, 
we've come a long way from what 

1154
01:08:01,720 --> 01:08:07,480
a horses actually evolved to be.
So I think there needs to be a 

1155
01:08:07,480 --> 01:08:10,240
change because otherwise there's
going to be a change forced upon

1156
01:08:10,240 --> 01:08:13,840
us. 
I I worry and the only way that 

1157
01:08:13,840 --> 01:08:19,640
that's going to change is if we 
in the equestrian industry start

1158
01:08:19,640 --> 01:08:25,200
to say, I don't want the company
that I buy my job was from to be

1159
01:08:25,200 --> 01:08:27,359
sponsoring that person. 
Although I can see, I think 

1160
01:08:27,359 --> 01:08:31,279
Kathleen's right is you have 
the, it's only in people's when 

1161
01:08:31,279 --> 01:08:33,520
people's pockets get hit that 
that, that make it, they make a 

1162
01:08:33,520 --> 01:08:35,080
change. 
Oh gosh. 

1163
01:08:35,080 --> 01:08:36,880
So I don't know if that was 
optimistic or not, but I was. 

1164
01:08:37,200 --> 01:08:39,640
Going to say it's an interesting
that's part optimistic and part 

1165
01:08:39,640 --> 01:08:42,399
very depressing, isn't it that 
it comes down to money at the 

1166
01:08:42,399 --> 01:08:45,120
end of the day. 
But you you're so right as well 

1167
01:08:45,120 --> 01:08:48,479
that it needs to be the public, 
the onlookers that actually sort

1168
01:08:48,479 --> 01:08:51,680
of create an outcry of this is 
not the way we should be 

1169
01:08:51,680 --> 01:08:55,000
treating horses, but equestrian 
should be on board that as well.

1170
01:08:55,000 --> 01:08:56,600
Not just like you say that the 
non rule. 

1171
01:08:56,600 --> 01:08:58,760
Absolutely, it should be a 
question. 

1172
01:08:58,760 --> 01:09:02,800
Saying I don't support this, but
how long it's going to take, 

1173
01:09:02,880 --> 01:09:05,359
we'll have to wait and see. 
I mean, there's no conversations

1174
01:09:05,359 --> 01:09:08,439
are certainly happening. 
It's whether it ripples up, 

1175
01:09:08,439 --> 01:09:10,200
isn't it? 
And and how long it takes. 

1176
01:09:11,120 --> 01:09:14,800
I mean, you'd like to think to 
to just maybe be not quite such 

1177
01:09:14,800 --> 01:09:17,680
a cynic. 
There was an article this week, 

1178
01:09:17,680 --> 01:09:20,000
I think in Horse and hand about 
Mia Rodley, who rides a 

1179
01:09:20,000 --> 01:09:23,040
beautiful level bridaless. 
You know, there are more and 

1180
01:09:23,040 --> 01:09:27,240
more people who are 
demonstrating, sometimes 

1181
01:09:27,279 --> 01:09:29,680
honestly and sometimes not 
honestly, what they can do 

1182
01:09:29,680 --> 01:09:32,600
without loads of force. 
So maybe I'm wrong. 

1183
01:09:32,600 --> 01:09:34,840
Maybe it's not just about the 
money. 

1184
01:09:35,000 --> 01:09:40,160
Maybe it was also about showing 
more and more examples of, look,

1185
01:09:40,160 --> 01:09:43,120
you can do this from a different
perspective. 

1186
01:09:43,120 --> 01:09:47,319
So I, there's probably a many 
pronged approach that we need to

1187
01:09:47,319 --> 01:09:51,800
take that will shift things. 
And all I try to think Anna is 

1188
01:09:52,600 --> 01:09:56,840
what can I do in my sphere? 
What can I do in relationship to

1189
01:09:56,840 --> 01:10:03,080
the people that are nearest me? 
And can I in my small way, try 

1190
01:10:03,080 --> 01:10:08,280
to share, look, there are these 
possibilities too, because and, 

1191
01:10:08,280 --> 01:10:11,640
and, and maybe making decisions 
about things like am I going to 

1192
01:10:11,640 --> 01:10:15,040
buy from that company if they 
are sponsoring somebody who's 

1193
01:10:15,040 --> 01:10:17,560
riding I find really abhorrent. 
Exactly. 

1194
01:10:17,560 --> 01:10:21,400
And I think actually the the 
very optimistic take away from 

1195
01:10:21,400 --> 01:10:24,760
your comment about money in 
pockets is that is something we 

1196
01:10:24,760 --> 01:10:26,760
can all control. 
Where are we putting our money? 

1197
01:10:26,840 --> 01:10:30,720
What are we supporting and 
actually having our eyes open to

1198
01:10:30,720 --> 01:10:34,480
where our money is going and not
putting money on seats at 

1199
01:10:34,480 --> 01:10:37,240
certain events or, you know, 
things that we want to change 

1200
01:10:37,240 --> 01:10:40,880
and and those sponsors think, 
you know, re evaluate. 

1201
01:10:41,040 --> 01:10:43,720
So actually a real positive take
away from from what you're 

1202
01:10:43,720 --> 01:10:45,240
saying there. 
Because we can. 

1203
01:10:45,240 --> 01:10:46,920
Contract, I mean that can't we? 
We can. 

1204
01:10:46,920 --> 01:10:48,480
Yeah, we can. 
And if you look at what's 

1205
01:10:48,480 --> 01:10:50,720
happened at the big with the big
lick in the States, that 

1206
01:10:50,720 --> 01:10:56,280
horrendous of, you know, sport, 
it's gonna die because nobody 

1207
01:10:56,280 --> 01:11:00,120
goes to watch it anymore. 
So yeah, OK, most of the people 

1208
01:11:00,120 --> 01:11:02,480
who are doing it maybe haven't 
changed their ethical principles

1209
01:11:02,480 --> 01:11:04,720
about soaring horses and 
weighing their feets and so on. 

1210
01:11:04,720 --> 01:11:09,120
But if you've got nobody turning
up to watch, then that will stop

1211
01:11:09,120 --> 01:11:12,160
the event. 
So yes, that's how we do. 

1212
01:11:12,600 --> 01:11:14,360
We do have power. 
Yeah, we do. 

1213
01:11:15,000 --> 01:11:18,080
And that is a really important 
take away and a lovely way to 

1214
01:11:18,080 --> 01:11:20,200
end the episode. 
Kate, thank you so much for 

1215
01:11:20,200 --> 01:11:23,080
coming on Curious Equestrian. 
I feel so inspired and 

1216
01:11:23,080 --> 01:11:24,960
empowered. 
For those who are watching and 

1217
01:11:24,960 --> 01:11:27,360
listening to you right now that 
want to find out more about what

1218
01:11:27,360 --> 01:11:33,000
you do, where can they find you?
Well, having said, I've 

1219
01:11:33,000 --> 01:11:35,200
travelled internationally, which
is probably a grand term for 

1220
01:11:35,200 --> 01:11:39,280
having gone to a few countries 
this, this year I'm actually 

1221
01:11:39,280 --> 01:11:42,360
staying put on Dartmoor more 
because certainly the last few 

1222
01:11:42,360 --> 01:11:47,320
years I've travelled so much in 
the UK and I would like to, 

1223
01:11:47,360 --> 01:11:50,320
well, no, I'm going to be based 
on Dartmoor more. 

1224
01:11:50,760 --> 01:11:54,200
So there are many opportunities 
to come and learn with me here. 

1225
01:11:54,200 --> 01:11:57,640
And I'm actually starting to do 
quite a lot more stuff out on 

1226
01:11:57,640 --> 01:12:00,320
the Moor. 
So supporting people to come out

1227
01:12:00,320 --> 01:12:01,920
and adventure out with their 
horses. 

1228
01:12:02,840 --> 01:12:06,640
I have access to a fabulous 
indoor arena where I run regular

1229
01:12:06,640 --> 01:12:10,120
clinics here in Devon. 
I also have a online membership 

1230
01:12:10,120 --> 01:12:15,600
group and I run online courses 
and do teach quite a lot of 

1231
01:12:15,600 --> 01:12:18,120
online lessons. 
People can set up individual 

1232
01:12:18,120 --> 01:12:20,480
coaching opportunities with me 
to people all over the world. 

1233
01:12:20,480 --> 01:12:25,120
So you can just go to 
softandsound.org or my Facebook 

1234
01:12:25,120 --> 01:12:27,680
page Soft and Sound and find out
a bit more about that if you 

1235
01:12:27,680 --> 01:12:30,080
would like. 
Kate, thank you so much for 

1236
01:12:30,080 --> 01:12:34,640
coming on Curious Equestrian. 
Thank you very much for inviting

1237
01:12:34,640 --> 01:12:36,000
me, Anna. 
And yeah, it's been lovely to 

1238
01:12:36,000 --> 01:12:38,160
meet you. 
And Kate is going behind the 

1239
01:12:38,160 --> 01:12:41,400
scenes now in the members area. 
So if you want to join us, come 

1240
01:12:41,400 --> 01:12:43,200
along on Patreon. 
All the links will be in the 

1241
01:12:43,200 --> 01:12:45,800
description. 
You'll see Kate's Q&A with 

1242
01:12:45,800 --> 01:12:49,000
listener questions, plus all 
sorts of other bonus content 

1243
01:12:49,000 --> 01:12:52,280
demos and lots, lots more. 
So come and join us and support 

1244
01:12:52,280 --> 01:12:56,200
the channel on Patreon. 
And don't forget to subscribe to

1245
01:12:56,200 --> 01:12:59,920
this episode if you haven't 
already to help us bring more 

1246
01:12:59,920 --> 01:13:02,840
brilliant guests to the channel,
just like Kate.