1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:04,680 Why should we care about the rare breeds of horses that are 2 00:00:04,680 --> 00:00:08,480 at risk of extinction? And why are there so many breeds 3 00:00:08,480 --> 00:00:12,040 of horses that are at risk of being lost forever? 4 00:00:13,160 --> 00:00:17,400 Welcome to Curious Equestrian. I'm Anna Louise, your host, and 5 00:00:17,560 --> 00:00:22,400 in this podcast we delve deep into all sorts of equestrian 6 00:00:22,400 --> 00:00:27,040 conversations with brilliant guests, experts in their field, 7 00:00:27,320 --> 00:00:31,920 equine professionals, well known names, and horse owners like you 8 00:00:31,920 --> 00:00:34,040 or I. In this episode, we're talking 9 00:00:34,040 --> 00:00:38,640 to Tracy Wothen Jones, a conservation expert at the Rare 10 00:00:38,640 --> 00:00:43,120 Breed Survival Trust, to delve deep and talk about rare pools 11 00:00:43,120 --> 00:00:46,080 of genetics. How difficult it is to keep 12 00:00:46,080 --> 00:00:49,880 certain breeds going. The rare horses that are at risk 13 00:00:50,040 --> 00:00:54,440 that are on the watch list like the magnificent Dales pony, the 14 00:00:54,440 --> 00:00:59,880 very beautiful Eriscae Island pony, the Suffolk Punch horse 15 00:00:59,880 --> 00:01:03,760 that is majestic and strong and actually quite beast like the 16 00:01:03,760 --> 00:01:07,760 Exmoor pony and lots of other horse breeds at risk like the 17 00:01:07,760 --> 00:01:13,120 ginormous Shire horse that is absolutely magnificent to watch 18 00:01:13,120 --> 00:01:15,280 in action. If you've ever seen the move, 19 00:01:15,920 --> 00:01:18,760 we're going to be talking all about the struggles and what we 20 00:01:18,760 --> 00:01:22,960 can do to help protect these horses and ponies. 21 00:01:23,120 --> 00:01:26,280 If you enjoy this episode, please share, give us a like and 22 00:01:26,280 --> 00:01:29,800 subscribe so that we can keep bringing you these awesome 23 00:01:29,800 --> 00:01:32,440 guests. It really helps our podcasts to 24 00:01:32,440 --> 00:01:36,680 be seen and to spread the word. Let's dive in with Tracy, shall 25 00:01:36,680 --> 00:01:39,320 we? Tracy, welcome to Curious 26 00:01:39,320 --> 00:01:41,080 Equestrian. Thank you. 27 00:01:41,080 --> 00:01:44,920 Really pleased to be here. Tracy, why are there so many 28 00:01:44,920 --> 00:01:48,600 breeds of horses at risk of being lost forever? 29 00:01:49,760 --> 00:01:53,920 It's not a simple answer in that it is quite complex depending on 30 00:01:54,000 --> 00:01:58,520 the breed. Our native breed equines were 31 00:01:58,520 --> 00:02:02,720 bred and developed locally so hence why some of their names 32 00:02:02,720 --> 00:02:06,160 are associated with the areas that they come from originally. 33 00:02:06,440 --> 00:02:12,640 So for various reasons, but predominantly going back, they 34 00:02:12,640 --> 00:02:15,520 had a purpose, they had a job to do in life. 35 00:02:15,520 --> 00:02:21,600 So whether it was with the heavy horses and agriculture or some 36 00:02:21,600 --> 00:02:25,800 of the smaller ponies, it might have been carrying things for 37 00:02:25,800 --> 00:02:30,320 people, it might have been other types of work that they were 38 00:02:30,320 --> 00:02:33,760 developed for. And unfortunately a lot of that 39 00:02:33,760 --> 00:02:37,920 work has ceased being done and we don't need them for those 40 00:02:37,920 --> 00:02:41,160 purposes anymore. So although some of the breeds 41 00:02:41,160 --> 00:02:46,000 have been been very successful at repurposing their sort of 42 00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:50,960 need for people, others unfortunately haven't. 43 00:02:50,960 --> 00:02:55,480 And so I think that's probably predominantly the main reason 44 00:02:55,480 --> 00:03:00,160 that some of them have have, you know, been in trouble over the 45 00:03:00,160 --> 00:03:04,000 last sort of few decades. And just thinking about those 46 00:03:04,000 --> 00:03:07,520 jobs, you know, horses were a part of the community, weren't 47 00:03:07,520 --> 00:03:08,760 they? They were part of people's 48 00:03:08,760 --> 00:03:13,400 families livelihoods and actually the weekly schedule of 49 00:03:13,400 --> 00:03:16,440 productivity and money earning actually largely depending on 50 00:03:16,720 --> 00:03:19,880 depended on horses, didn't it, Whether they were working the 51 00:03:19,880 --> 00:03:26,240 farm or helping with low carry heavy loads, operating carts. 52 00:03:26,440 --> 00:03:29,400 What sort of jobs can you run us through Tracy? 53 00:03:29,400 --> 00:03:32,080 Were horses responsible? For, yeah. 54 00:03:32,080 --> 00:03:37,320 So if you take the sort of heavy horses, they were very much the 55 00:03:37,320 --> 00:03:41,760 pulling carts, the pulling plows, the actual sort of back 56 00:03:41,760 --> 00:03:46,600 when mechanisation was very minimal, but we still use tools 57 00:03:46,600 --> 00:03:49,600 on the land. They would have been very much 58 00:03:50,040 --> 00:03:52,080 for that and carrying heavy loads. 59 00:03:52,520 --> 00:03:55,400 And then some of the smaller ponies, the things like up in 60 00:03:55,400 --> 00:03:59,960 the sort of Scottish islands, collecting seaweed, even 61 00:03:59,960 --> 00:04:03,080 carrying, you know, for the family, like you say, very much 62 00:04:03,080 --> 00:04:06,120 part of the family. So, you know, baskets on either 63 00:04:06,120 --> 00:04:10,120 side and, and carrying things, shopping and goods that, you 64 00:04:10,120 --> 00:04:14,160 know, people before people had cars and vehicles and you know, 65 00:04:14,160 --> 00:04:15,960 could just throw everything in their boot. 66 00:04:15,960 --> 00:04:19,760 They were very much associated with that type of work, even 67 00:04:19,760 --> 00:04:24,200 sort of milling and things like that, turning mills, stones that 68 00:04:24,320 --> 00:04:28,920 also everything really before sort of the days of tractors 69 00:04:29,200 --> 00:04:32,320 were pretty much done by oxen and horses. 70 00:04:32,640 --> 00:04:37,840 And even if you look up in places like Scotland, things 71 00:04:37,840 --> 00:04:42,240 like stag hunting and, and carrying, you know, the, the 72 00:04:42,440 --> 00:04:45,520 sort of stags that have been cold, they would have carried 73 00:04:45,520 --> 00:04:51,840 them back to the main house. So food gathering, shopping, you 74 00:04:51,840 --> 00:04:55,200 know, all sorts of jobs that were associated with family 75 00:04:55,200 --> 00:04:59,280 life, agricultural life across the country were predominantly 76 00:04:59,280 --> 00:05:03,080 done by our breeds of equine. It's really interesting, isn't 77 00:05:03,080 --> 00:05:05,280 it? I was walking up and down the 78 00:05:05,280 --> 00:05:08,960 High Street the other day and and watching how the dogs on 79 00:05:08,960 --> 00:05:11,840 leads were interacting with shoppers and families were 80 00:05:11,840 --> 00:05:14,840 stopping and couples were stopping and everyone in talking 81 00:05:14,840 --> 00:05:19,920 to the dog and, and I thought, wow, one, one day, you know, in 82 00:05:19,920 --> 00:05:23,960 history, days gone by, that would have been horses, yes, 83 00:05:23,960 --> 00:05:27,760 that would have been passing by in the high streets pulling the 84 00:05:27,760 --> 00:05:32,000 carts or walking up and down carrying for families and people 85 00:05:32,000 --> 00:05:34,760 greeting horses and waving to each other. 86 00:05:35,200 --> 00:05:38,440 And now they're very much removed from society, aren't 87 00:05:38,440 --> 00:05:40,160 they? I mean I did. 88 00:05:40,280 --> 00:05:44,360 I lived in Ireland for 8 1/2 years in in the Republic of 89 00:05:44,360 --> 00:05:46,280 Ireland. I was in County Court, which is 90 00:05:46,280 --> 00:05:49,600 very near County Kerry. So we used to spend a lot of 91 00:05:49,600 --> 00:05:54,400 time around Killarney. And still now Killarney, if you 92 00:05:54,400 --> 00:06:01,000 visit there, it, the town centre is full of horses pulling carts 93 00:06:01,000 --> 00:06:04,080 for the tourists. And it's still very much a part 94 00:06:04,080 --> 00:06:08,160 of, you know, sort of everyday life for people in Killarney and 95 00:06:08,160 --> 00:06:11,480 the surrounding areas. They very much do still use that 96 00:06:11,480 --> 00:06:15,280 as a traditional sort of day out for tourists. 97 00:06:15,280 --> 00:06:18,560 And so, you know, it's quite, it's, it is quite a unique 98 00:06:18,560 --> 00:06:21,640 experience when you still go to other parts of the world as 99 00:06:21,640 --> 00:06:24,320 well. And, you know, you go into sort 100 00:06:24,320 --> 00:06:28,040 of urban places and there are equines, horses and ponies 101 00:06:28,040 --> 00:06:30,760 around. And we've got very much detached 102 00:06:30,760 --> 00:06:35,240 from that here in this country. And so, yes, I think generally 103 00:06:35,240 --> 00:06:38,920 people would have had a lot, lot more contact on a daily basis 104 00:06:38,920 --> 00:06:41,920 with our horses and ponies. And, you know, unless you're, 105 00:06:42,240 --> 00:06:45,600 you know, very much into your sort of, you know, horse riding 106 00:06:45,600 --> 00:06:49,960 and, and sports, then most people won't come across horses 107 00:06:49,960 --> 00:06:52,880 and ponies anymore. Do you think that's part of the 108 00:06:52,880 --> 00:06:56,360 problem, Tracy, that not only have horses lost their jobs in 109 00:06:56,360 --> 00:06:59,680 society, but actually people? Now you're either part of the 110 00:06:59,680 --> 00:07:02,600 equestrian community as a horse rider or a horse owner, or 111 00:07:02,600 --> 00:07:04,160 you're not part of that world at all. 112 00:07:04,160 --> 00:07:07,440 And actually, people are so removed from horses. 113 00:07:07,960 --> 00:07:10,760 Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's generally 114 00:07:11,040 --> 00:07:14,360 very much a generalisation, but I find that there there's a lot 115 00:07:14,360 --> 00:07:18,480 more fear around horses and ponies perhaps then there would 116 00:07:18,480 --> 00:07:22,080 have been years ago. And purely because people don't 117 00:07:22,080 --> 00:07:24,680 come across them. The only caveat I would say to 118 00:07:24,680 --> 00:07:29,640 that is the the sort of whole world of equine therapy that is 119 00:07:29,640 --> 00:07:33,400 very much opening up in a big way and has done for sort of the 120 00:07:33,400 --> 00:07:36,880 last few years. And I think that will, as it 121 00:07:36,880 --> 00:07:41,840 grows, which I'm sure it will come overcome some of that 122 00:07:41,840 --> 00:07:45,920 because, you know, if people have to sort of spend time with 123 00:07:46,040 --> 00:07:50,080 horses and ponies, you know, as therapy, then I'm sure that's 124 00:07:50,080 --> 00:07:52,960 going to break down that fear. And it's going to give a lot of 125 00:07:52,960 --> 00:07:55,240 our breeds, you know, new lease of life. 126 00:07:55,240 --> 00:07:58,360 And, you know, some of our sort of native breeds, especially the 127 00:07:58,360 --> 00:08:01,960 sort of smaller ponies, are going to be very well suited to 128 00:08:01,960 --> 00:08:04,560 that. And that's such an interesting 129 00:08:04,560 --> 00:08:06,560 thought. So equine therapy? 130 00:08:06,560 --> 00:08:13,320 What other jobs could these rare and at risk horses and ponies do 131 00:08:13,320 --> 00:08:15,560 in modern day society do you think? 132 00:08:15,560 --> 00:08:18,680 Yeah. So with some of the heavy breeds 133 00:08:19,160 --> 00:08:25,880 very much conservation, not just grazing, but things like bracken 134 00:08:25,880 --> 00:08:30,640 control logging. So you know, quite a lot of our 135 00:08:30,640 --> 00:08:34,919 heavy breeds have been utilised in recent years for low impact 136 00:08:34,919 --> 00:08:37,720 logging. So instead of sending in tracked 137 00:08:37,720 --> 00:08:42,960 machinery, it's a very sort of more gentle way of extracting 138 00:08:42,960 --> 00:08:45,720 timber from woodland, especially sort of some of our more 139 00:08:45,720 --> 00:08:49,040 sensitive woodland. So that's been a big boost for 140 00:08:49,040 --> 00:08:52,520 some of our heavier breeds. And then in terms of 141 00:08:52,520 --> 00:08:56,760 conservation grazing, like our Dartmoors and ex Moors and some 142 00:08:56,760 --> 00:09:00,720 of the what you'd classes, more semi feral breeds have done an 143 00:09:00,720 --> 00:09:04,920 excellent job and are very popular now in conservation 144 00:09:04,920 --> 00:09:07,160 grazing. And then of course you have, you 145 00:09:07,160 --> 00:09:10,360 know, sort of there is the whole world with the sort of riding 146 00:09:10,360 --> 00:09:15,200 and and driving that, you know, people have looked back to some 147 00:09:15,200 --> 00:09:19,080 of our native breeds, I think just for passion and interest as 148 00:09:19,080 --> 00:09:22,920 well really. Because of course they contain, 149 00:09:22,920 --> 00:09:25,920 and their stories contain so much history, don't they? 150 00:09:26,160 --> 00:09:30,440 The horses of the past tell our human stories of the past. 151 00:09:31,560 --> 00:09:34,200 Absolutely. That definitely there's a strong 152 00:09:34,280 --> 00:09:39,000 element of heritage and you often find that people that are 153 00:09:39,280 --> 00:09:44,280 keeping and breeding our native breeds are incredibly passionate 154 00:09:44,280 --> 00:09:47,040 people. You know they are, they are 155 00:09:47,480 --> 00:09:50,800 committed and you know they spend a lot of their own 156 00:09:50,800 --> 00:09:55,640 resources and time and on promoting these breeds and 157 00:09:55,840 --> 00:09:59,040 making sure that they do continue into the future. 158 00:09:59,240 --> 00:10:03,640 So I think individual sort of people's passion is a big driver 159 00:10:03,640 --> 00:10:07,240 of this as well. And actually in small 160 00:10:07,240 --> 00:10:11,560 communities, although these horses may be at risk, like you 161 00:10:11,560 --> 00:10:15,640 say, the passion there for the breed is like a cult following, 162 00:10:15,640 --> 00:10:16,960 isn't it? Yeah. 163 00:10:16,960 --> 00:10:20,960 So I think like you sort of rightly said earlier, it can be 164 00:10:21,000 --> 00:10:24,760 your view can be a bit skewed. I think in terms of if you're 165 00:10:24,760 --> 00:10:28,160 from an area like you say that's got a really strong following 166 00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:33,120 for a local breed, then you might be forgiven for sort of 167 00:10:33,120 --> 00:10:37,600 thinking it's all OK. But that's quite skewed in terms 168 00:10:37,600 --> 00:10:41,120 of when you look at the numbers, you know, at a national level, 169 00:10:41,360 --> 00:10:45,240 it doesn't sort of represent it in a true way. 170 00:10:45,240 --> 00:10:50,640 So, you know, if you're, if you're in the sort of culture of 171 00:10:51,040 --> 00:10:54,000 that particular breed and you're very involved in it and you go 172 00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:56,800 to the shows and you know, it's quite easy to go to our sort of 173 00:10:56,800 --> 00:10:59,280 agricultural and shows and go, oh, look, you know, there's 174 00:10:59,280 --> 00:11:03,520 classes of them. But that is it, that is sort of 175 00:11:03,520 --> 00:11:06,520 the representation of the breed. And when you look at national 176 00:11:06,520 --> 00:11:11,400 numbers, it it's more worrying. That's so important. 177 00:11:11,400 --> 00:11:15,360 You mention that I'm from Kent but recently moved to Suffolk 178 00:11:15,360 --> 00:11:19,200 and I've seen many a suffered punch even though they are on 179 00:11:19,200 --> 00:11:21,520 the rare list. So I feel very fortunate that 180 00:11:21,520 --> 00:11:24,480 I've been able to be up close and personal with suffered 181 00:11:24,480 --> 00:11:28,000 punches that are in fact down the road from my house and have 182 00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:31,400 been able to interact with them and see their sheer size and 183 00:11:31,400 --> 00:11:34,400 power. And actually how they're so very 184 00:11:34,400 --> 00:11:37,240 different from so many horses that I've been around my whole 185 00:11:37,240 --> 00:11:39,400 life. And have witnessed that cult 186 00:11:39,400 --> 00:11:42,680 passion following for the Suffolk Punch horse in all sorts 187 00:11:42,680 --> 00:11:44,640 of different communities. Not even just the older 188 00:11:44,640 --> 00:11:48,440 generation who have actually shared stories of when they saw 189 00:11:48,440 --> 00:11:51,760 the Suffolk punches plow in the field, but the new generations 190 00:11:51,760 --> 00:11:56,200 coming up and Jimmy's farm, you know, very well known TV figure 191 00:11:56,200 --> 00:11:58,560 Jimmy showed me around his Suffolk punches and what they're 192 00:11:58,560 --> 00:12:03,280 doing for his farm and how the new generations of enthusiasts 193 00:12:03,280 --> 00:12:07,040 are coming up through. How important is that, Tracy? 194 00:12:07,040 --> 00:12:10,880 That actually it's not just the communities that remember these 195 00:12:10,880 --> 00:12:14,360 horses in situ, that it's the new generations coming up that, 196 00:12:14,520 --> 00:12:19,440 yeah, find that same passion. Absolutely get very critical and 197 00:12:19,440 --> 00:12:23,640 it's something that, you know, RBST we work a lot on is they 198 00:12:23,680 --> 00:12:28,440 try trying to, you know, engage with younger people and find 199 00:12:28,440 --> 00:12:31,120 where they're at and what they're interested in. 200 00:12:31,560 --> 00:12:35,040 And I think it's interesting to know that not just the breeds 201 00:12:35,040 --> 00:12:37,560 that are rare, but the skills that go with them. 202 00:12:37,560 --> 00:12:41,760 So the skills of keeping some of these breeds, the skills of 203 00:12:41,760 --> 00:12:44,320 breeding them, the skills of working them. 204 00:12:44,560 --> 00:12:47,480 It's not enough to just keep the breed alive. 205 00:12:47,480 --> 00:12:50,320 I think we've got to keep those skills alive as well. 206 00:12:50,320 --> 00:12:54,360 And the only way we're going to do that is to engage with young 207 00:12:54,360 --> 00:12:58,960 people and, and bring them along with us and get them interested 208 00:12:58,960 --> 00:13:02,640 in taking this forward. Because otherwise, you know, 209 00:13:02,680 --> 00:13:06,800 with the older generation, you know, if those skills die with 210 00:13:06,840 --> 00:13:11,360 them, then we are still going to be in trouble with these breeds. 211 00:13:11,360 --> 00:13:13,600 So they very much go hand in hand. 212 00:13:14,560 --> 00:13:18,040 And what sort of communities and organisations do you work with 213 00:13:18,040 --> 00:13:22,000 Tracy to make sure these breeds are used in different areas 214 00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:24,240 throughout the country and for different projects? 215 00:13:25,000 --> 00:13:28,240 Yeah. So at RBST we get involved with 216 00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:31,240 the breed societies a lot. So we would we would be, you 217 00:13:31,240 --> 00:13:33,840 know, in close connection with them. 218 00:13:34,160 --> 00:13:36,760 We work a lot with universities because there's been quite a lot 219 00:13:36,760 --> 00:13:40,040 of interest in recent years of universities carrying out 220 00:13:40,040 --> 00:13:42,040 research. So we would definitely be 221 00:13:42,040 --> 00:13:45,960 talking to academics and if papers come out we would be 222 00:13:45,960 --> 00:13:52,080 engaging at that level as well. We teach lanter conservation 223 00:13:52,080 --> 00:13:56,440 grazing courses. So we get a good percentage of 224 00:13:56,440 --> 00:13:58,760 young people on those courses that are involved in 225 00:13:58,760 --> 00:14:01,160 conservation and from an ecology background. 226 00:14:01,400 --> 00:14:04,760 So they they very much got an ecology background but might not 227 00:14:04,760 --> 00:14:07,240 have livestock background and they want to get involved in 228 00:14:07,240 --> 00:14:10,960 conservation grazing and that very much includes our equines. 229 00:14:10,960 --> 00:14:14,360 So on those courses, we find that's a really good way to 230 00:14:14,360 --> 00:14:17,920 engage with, with the sort of wide audience and get people on 231 00:14:17,920 --> 00:14:21,080 board with that. And then, you know, just 232 00:14:21,080 --> 00:14:22,800 generally through our membership, because we're a 233 00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:26,120 member membership organization then, you know, through our 234 00:14:26,120 --> 00:14:30,240 newsletters and, and our quarterly art magazine, we would 235 00:14:30,240 --> 00:14:33,800 always be, you know, including sort of equine stories in that 236 00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:36,800 to try and get people interested in and connected. 237 00:14:37,080 --> 00:14:39,600 You know, it's, it's, it's as much about connecting people 238 00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:43,840 together, I think as as us sort of just putting out information. 239 00:14:45,280 --> 00:14:48,240 There is something wonderfully magical about connecting with 240 00:14:48,240 --> 00:14:52,200 the breed and their story, and thinking about our history isn't 241 00:14:52,200 --> 00:14:55,680 there, and it's almost transporting and taking us back 242 00:14:55,680 --> 00:14:58,520 in time. Definitely. 243 00:14:58,520 --> 00:15:03,320 And you know, there are some, we have a series of farm parks 244 00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:06,400 around the country as well. And, you know, some are 245 00:15:06,400 --> 00:15:10,400 affiliated to us, some aren't, but there are lots of sort of 246 00:15:10,440 --> 00:15:14,440 visitor attractions out there that people, they literally just 247 00:15:14,720 --> 00:15:17,560 are interested. They don't know much about it. 248 00:15:17,840 --> 00:15:21,720 But certainly recommend sort of looking up your local farm park 249 00:15:21,720 --> 00:15:24,320 and seeing, you know, what breeds of equine they've got 250 00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:25,760 there and see what they've got on. 251 00:15:25,760 --> 00:15:29,560 Because I know some of them do some amazing events and they 252 00:15:29,560 --> 00:15:32,360 still do the sort of demonstrations of the horses 253 00:15:32,360 --> 00:15:34,360 working. And, you know, it's just a 254 00:15:34,360 --> 00:15:38,040 really great way for people who don't know much about it to just 255 00:15:38,040 --> 00:15:41,800 especially children to start engaging children and showing 256 00:15:41,800 --> 00:15:44,200 them that the, you know, this is still happening. 257 00:15:44,200 --> 00:15:47,560 And it's still, you know, there are people out there still 258 00:15:47,560 --> 00:15:51,960 working these horses. And just share with us, Tracy, 259 00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:55,320 some of the numbers of the horses that are at risk. 260 00:15:55,320 --> 00:15:58,280 We're not talking about thousands of horses being left, 261 00:15:58,280 --> 00:16:01,600 we're talking hundreds. Yeah. 262 00:16:01,600 --> 00:16:10,800 So we, we produce a watch list every year and basically we get 263 00:16:10,800 --> 00:16:14,440 numbers from Defra. And then we changed our 264 00:16:14,440 --> 00:16:18,560 methodology a few years ago because we wanted to give a more 265 00:16:18,560 --> 00:16:21,600 true picture. So we don't just look at females 266 00:16:21,600 --> 00:16:25,280 and males, dams and sires, we look at something called 267 00:16:25,280 --> 00:16:30,000 effective population size. So when we class things as being 268 00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:34,120 at risk, it's not just literally the numbers, but we look at 269 00:16:34,120 --> 00:16:36,880 their effective population and we look at their inbreeding 270 00:16:36,880 --> 00:16:39,880 levels. So it's, it's more sort of 271 00:16:39,880 --> 00:16:44,400 complicated than it used to be because rather than just saying, 272 00:16:44,400 --> 00:16:49,560 oh, under 500 is at risk, if you've got a population that's 273 00:16:49,560 --> 00:16:55,040 got high inbreeding, then that is at more risk than another 274 00:16:55,040 --> 00:16:58,920 population that has similar, similar numbers, but lower 275 00:16:58,920 --> 00:17:02,720 inbreeding rates. So from that point of view, we 276 00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:06,520 also take into account things like number of breeders and the 277 00:17:06,520 --> 00:17:10,400 geographical concentration of the breed. 278 00:17:10,960 --> 00:17:13,960 So like you've said yourself, you live in Suffolk, you've got 279 00:17:13,960 --> 00:17:17,480 Suffolk sort of surrounding you, but you go to other parts of the 280 00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:20,319 country, you probably won't see a Suffolk horse. 281 00:17:20,720 --> 00:17:25,319 So all those things are taken into account when we come up 282 00:17:25,319 --> 00:17:27,880 with our watch list, but there's also numbers. 283 00:17:27,880 --> 00:17:31,040 So anyone that's listening to this can go on to sort of the 284 00:17:31,040 --> 00:17:35,960 Defra website and there's a lot of figures on there for people 285 00:17:35,960 --> 00:17:41,800 to just look at themselves. But from 2020 to 2024, they do 286 00:17:41,800 --> 00:17:44,720 what they call a sort of five year percentage change for the 287 00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:48,400 breeds. So you can see overall, so for 288 00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:52,080 example, Dale's Pony is up 5%. The Suffolk that we've been 289 00:17:52,080 --> 00:17:56,960 talking about is actually up 4% over the 2020 to 24. 290 00:17:57,600 --> 00:18:01,840 But then you've got other things I know you mentioned in your 291 00:18:01,840 --> 00:18:05,440 e-mail to me about the Eros gay breed, which was mentioned in 292 00:18:05,440 --> 00:18:08,560 the Times the other day. They're actually, their overall 293 00:18:08,560 --> 00:18:13,600 pattern is down 10%, Exmoor ponies down 11%. 294 00:18:13,920 --> 00:18:18,120 So it's, there's, there's quite a, there's quite a difference in 295 00:18:18,120 --> 00:18:20,880 there as to what's up and what's down. 296 00:18:22,960 --> 00:18:25,880 And that's why we do our watch list every year because we very 297 00:18:25,880 --> 00:18:29,400 much can't take our eye off the ball and we very much have to be 298 00:18:29,400 --> 00:18:34,040 aware year on year as to the trends of these breeds. 299 00:18:34,760 --> 00:18:37,880 So that's basically sort of how what the work we're doing in the 300 00:18:37,880 --> 00:18:41,320 background all the time. And when you get these trends, 301 00:18:41,320 --> 00:18:43,880 Tracy, are you then going to pass that information on to try 302 00:18:43,880 --> 00:18:47,280 and encourage certain organisations or communities or 303 00:18:47,280 --> 00:18:51,160 areas of the UK to actually start increasing their breeding? 304 00:18:51,160 --> 00:18:53,600 Do you sort of put out an announcement we need help with 305 00:18:53,600 --> 00:18:57,600 this, this certain breed? So what we do is it always goes 306 00:18:57,600 --> 00:19:00,080 out when the when the watch list comes out, there's always good, 307 00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:03,120 we've got very good media coverage this year and and we do 308 00:19:03,120 --> 00:19:06,080 most years. And then what we'll do is 309 00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:12,760 particularly if we see a trend of and not a good trend not 310 00:19:12,760 --> 00:19:16,400 going in a good way, we will of course contact the breed society 311 00:19:16,400 --> 00:19:19,720 before we put the numbers out in into public domains. 312 00:19:19,720 --> 00:19:22,360 So we will be talking to them in the background and just saying, 313 00:19:22,360 --> 00:19:24,440 look, we've had a look at our figures this year. 314 00:19:24,920 --> 00:19:26,560 This is what's happening with the watch list. 315 00:19:26,560 --> 00:19:31,560 Your breed is going from at risk to priority or or off native to 316 00:19:31,600 --> 00:19:34,120 at risk. And we'll have conversations 317 00:19:34,120 --> 00:19:36,840 with them before it goes into the public domain and just say, 318 00:19:36,840 --> 00:19:39,680 look, you know, what can we do to help? 319 00:19:39,680 --> 00:19:41,560 What can we do for the coming year? 320 00:19:41,560 --> 00:19:44,880 How can we work together on this? 321 00:19:44,920 --> 00:19:47,720 And, you know, very much have those conversations before that 322 00:19:47,720 --> 00:19:50,440 comes out. And talk to us about the 323 00:19:50,440 --> 00:19:53,000 breeding Tracy, because of course it's all about getting 324 00:19:53,000 --> 00:19:56,520 those numbers every year and folds on the ground, but that 325 00:19:56,520 --> 00:20:01,080 must be an incredible challenge. How do you go about breeding and 326 00:20:01,080 --> 00:20:04,960 breeding programmes? Successfully with a limited gene 327 00:20:04,960 --> 00:20:06,520 pool. Yeah. 328 00:20:06,600 --> 00:20:11,240 So obviously as you say that the smaller the gene pool, the more 329 00:20:11,320 --> 00:20:15,200 issues you've got. And what has happened over time 330 00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:18,440 with some of the breeds is there's been very popular 331 00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:22,920 stallions. So people have tended to go for 332 00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:26,600 the popular stallion and then you suddenly find and and it's a 333 00:20:26,600 --> 00:20:28,640 bit of a lag time, you suddenly find that. 334 00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:31,440 Oh, everybody's using that stallion. 335 00:20:31,440 --> 00:20:35,680 That's not actually good. We've got a database, it's not 336 00:20:35,720 --> 00:20:40,600 ours, but there is a database called Grassroots, which the 337 00:20:40,920 --> 00:20:44,080 herd and flock books use. And so that's very much 338 00:20:44,080 --> 00:20:48,360 monitoring numbers. We can do checks on that. 339 00:20:48,360 --> 00:20:53,320 So we can do kinship and we can look at the relatedness of males 340 00:20:53,320 --> 00:20:58,120 to females. So we can check whether matings 341 00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:02,640 are sort of red, amber or green. So, you know, your red ones you 342 00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:05,800 really want to be avoiding because they're closely related. 343 00:21:05,800 --> 00:21:10,280 Your amber, you want to manage those matings. 344 00:21:10,280 --> 00:21:14,200 So, you know, in certain circumstances it might be OK, 345 00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:15,920 but you very much want to monitor it. 346 00:21:15,920 --> 00:21:18,560 And then if you're in your green, then it's yeah, 347 00:21:18,640 --> 00:21:20,480 brilliant. You know, that's that's a good 348 00:21:20,480 --> 00:21:23,600 mating. So you know that go with that. 349 00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:30,560 So there's also things around just general health of your, you 350 00:21:30,560 --> 00:21:34,360 know, mares and you know, your downsides and falls. 351 00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:37,560 So, you know, we do also do quite a lot of work and, and 352 00:21:37,560 --> 00:21:41,360 publicizing general sort of health and welfare because if 353 00:21:41,360 --> 00:21:44,160 you don't have a healthy animal, you're not going to breed well 354 00:21:44,160 --> 00:21:47,200 from it. So it goes right back to the 355 00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:49,080 sort of basics with that as well. 356 00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:54,280 And then the next thing on from that is registering your stock. 357 00:21:54,280 --> 00:21:58,680 So we've got a big, we've had this summer a big campaign again 358 00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:03,640 about registering stock because unfortunately people, if they're 359 00:22:03,640 --> 00:22:08,280 not registering their pedigree stock, we don't have clear 360 00:22:08,280 --> 00:22:12,560 figures of actually the true picture of how many animals are 361 00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:15,720 out there on the ground. Which means that when we're 362 00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:20,080 doing background work with say Defra and government policy and 363 00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:24,000 breed societies, if we don't have that true picture, it makes 364 00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:27,640 it much harder for us to do our job and, and give the sort of 365 00:22:27,640 --> 00:22:31,560 solid facts. And also if there are things 366 00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:35,360 like disease outbreaks, we need the true picture. 367 00:22:35,640 --> 00:22:39,240 And if your animals are registered, then you've got 368 00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:44,000 evidence of those animals and their bloodlines, which means we 369 00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:48,360 can help in, you know, in the worst case scenarios, we might 370 00:22:48,360 --> 00:22:51,880 be able to support people and say, look, we've got all this 371 00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:55,240 data, they've been registered, we can see their bloodlines. 372 00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:58,480 This is a particularly rare bloodline that we really need to 373 00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:02,280 conserve. So, yeah, registering stock is 374 00:23:02,360 --> 00:23:07,320 another aspect that we are working a lot on. 375 00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:11,520 And it's, it's not easy, but it's a case of, you know, 376 00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:15,880 educating and talking about it. And when we go to shows and 377 00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:19,520 events, just, you know, having conversations with people and 378 00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:22,920 trying to get them to see that in actual fact, you know, to 379 00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:26,280 keep that heritage and to keep that information and to keep it 380 00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:30,160 up to date, then we do need people to be registering stock. 381 00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:33,800 And we've lost horse breeds before that have become 382 00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:36,760 officially extinct. Is there anything, Tracy, that's 383 00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:40,120 in place that if the numbers are dwindling so much and decreasing 384 00:23:40,120 --> 00:23:44,960 so much that there's something to stop these rare breeds that 385 00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:47,440 are on the list actually becoming extinct? 386 00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:50,360 Yeah. I mean, we, we always say that 387 00:23:50,360 --> 00:23:54,480 we prefer animals in the field, but we do have our national gene 388 00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:57,480 bank, which is basically our insurance policy. 389 00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:02,640 So for horses, it's made, it's semen and storage. 390 00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:10,080 But we so alongside our sort of work to keep these breeds alive 391 00:24:10,080 --> 00:24:13,640 and to keep engaging with people and to make sure that they're 392 00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:21,080 being utilized and and kept, our gene bank is there in order for 393 00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:26,600 worst case scenario, we still have that genetic resource 394 00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:32,200 stored for if we needed to, you know, work on bringing back a 395 00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:35,840 breed in worst case scenario. So that's another big part of 396 00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:41,160 our work is our gene bank and making sure that we have, you 397 00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:45,640 know, healthy sort of storage of in our gene bank and that we 398 00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:49,840 make sure that collections from stallions are sort of kept up to 399 00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:51,800 date. And if we think there's a gap, 400 00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:56,040 you know, and people can come to us as well and say, you know, 401 00:24:56,280 --> 00:25:00,680 that they'd like their stallion semen to be stored in our gene 402 00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:02,240 bank. So it works both ways. 403 00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:03,960 We can go to people, people come to us. 404 00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:07,040 But that's very much our insurance policy for worst case 405 00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:11,920 scenarios. Wow, and can that storage last 406 00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:15,560 for decades? Is there a limit to the samples 407 00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:18,840 and how long they last? We do have samples from 60s, 408 00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:21,880 seventies. The thing is you can, you can 409 00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:27,840 test, you know, how viable that is at a later date, but you sort 410 00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:32,600 of need, you have to decide then about South in terms of how many 411 00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:35,440 straws we have saved. We, you know, there are 412 00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:39,080 decisions to make about how many are for sale, how many are for 413 00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:41,760 conservation. And then if you want to test the 414 00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:46,440 viability, then obviously you are wasting though not wasting, 415 00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:49,480 it's a wrong term, but you are having to use those, some of 416 00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:51,880 those straws to test their viability. 417 00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:57,240 So you know, that's why we very much have to manage that side of 418 00:25:57,320 --> 00:26:01,600 things and make sure that we going forward don't just sort of 419 00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:06,640 say, right, we've collected 25 from 25 stallions and therefore 420 00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:09,960 that's done there. Going forward, we have to decide 421 00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:12,440 at what point we then use some of the straws to test the 422 00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:15,920 viability from the older semen that's in storage and then 423 00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:19,640 whether we want to collect again from newer stallions going 424 00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:22,560 forward. So it's very much sort of year 425 00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:24,760 by year, we have to manage that as well. 426 00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:29,200 Wow, so you can create a file where the sample has been in 427 00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:34,000 storage for around 60 years. Potentially the viability does 428 00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:37,280 tend to drop. So it's it's not an exact 429 00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:41,960 science, but definitely it is there and it has been done. 430 00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:46,280 But obviously the longer it is in storage, the viability does 431 00:26:46,360 --> 00:26:49,800 decrease with it. So hence why we need to always 432 00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:53,120 make sure we're sort of keeping up to date going forward as 433 00:26:53,120 --> 00:26:55,120 well. Because of course, the actual 434 00:26:55,280 --> 00:26:57,480 breeding itself is, is a tough one, isn't it? 435 00:26:57,480 --> 00:27:02,360 Getting the mayor pregnant and keeping the pregnancy as well as 436 00:27:02,360 --> 00:27:05,800 actually maintaining the pregnancy through to actually 437 00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:08,920 getting the foal on the ground and seeing the foal thrive and 438 00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:11,760 and survive. Actually work with breeders in 439 00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:14,440 terms of helping them through that process, which I know can 440 00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:17,360 be incredibly true matter even for the humans involved if 441 00:27:17,360 --> 00:27:20,520 pregnancy after pregnancy is unviable or lost. 442 00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:23,480 Yeah. So I mean, we wouldn't tend to 443 00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:27,440 be, you know, we would always say in terms of sort of that 444 00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:30,560 side of things is, you know, for people to have really good 445 00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:34,560 relationships with their vets, especially if you have got a 446 00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:38,480 particular breed of equine and it's quite specialist case. 447 00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:41,640 And, you know, I, we always recommend people to have a 448 00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:44,760 really good relationship with an, you know, an equine vet that 449 00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:48,360 understands the breed and the sort of, you know, the 450 00:27:48,360 --> 00:27:51,280 delicacies of, of trying to breed some of these, these more 451 00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:58,040 rare horses and ponies. But in terms of, we do projects 452 00:27:58,040 --> 00:27:59,840 and we do quite a lot of survey work. 453 00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:03,560 So we've done some survey work last year and this year that 454 00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:08,240 we're now putting together and we're going to be publicizing 455 00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:10,920 results next year. So we would, we do quite a lot 456 00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:14,640 of survey work of breeders to find out, to try and get a good 457 00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:18,920 picture of their issues. So they can, you know, feedback 458 00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:21,680 to us what their particular issues are, whether it is 459 00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:24,480 getting the mayor in foal, whether it's finding the right 460 00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:27,320 stallion, whether it's once the foal is on the ground, the 461 00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:30,080 problems, health problems they might have with the foals. 462 00:28:30,360 --> 00:28:33,600 So that very much because we're, you know, we're a small 463 00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:38,000 organization with a quite a small team, it would be, you 464 00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:40,680 know, very difficult for us to go and visit all the Breeders 465 00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:42,440 by. But by doing these sort of 466 00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:45,920 survey work, this survey work, we can gather lots of 467 00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:49,280 information from lots of breeders and then we can see for 468 00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:52,000 commonalities. So you know, if we get all this 469 00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:57,480 information from a lot of stuff breeders and they're all coming 470 00:28:57,480 --> 00:29:00,440 back to us and saying, look, got no problem getting the mare in 471 00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:05,720 foal, but actually, you know, week 3 of the foals life, we're 472 00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:07,520 all coming across a common problem. 473 00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:11,520 Then we will very much then sort of put our resources into that 474 00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:14,960 and look at that in more detail. And then we can actually do 475 00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:18,600 further work where the Breeders need us to rather than us sort 476 00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:21,360 of visiting everyone. So that's kind of how we go 477 00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:26,840 about it is finding these common issues and therefore that's sort 478 00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:29,600 of the best use of our resources and we can help with those 479 00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:34,520 common issues. What currently Tracy is the most 480 00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:39,000 rare horse breed in the UK. Well, the, you mentioned the air 481 00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:46,160 risque that is, that is a very small population and there's 482 00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:51,160 been a lot of work in recent years with universities because 483 00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:55,280 it is quite a unique breed and, and very rare and very low 484 00:29:55,280 --> 00:29:58,360 numbers. Then it's, it has had a lot of 485 00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:02,160 interest amongst sort of geneticists and, and academics. 486 00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:06,680 So I think that has helped that breed in terms of really 487 00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:11,200 understanding where it's at and, and what the current situation 488 00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:13,600 is of it. We've got a very passionate 489 00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:18,840 trustee who's very involved with the Aris Gay breed and breeds 490 00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:22,200 them himself. And so that's been really, 491 00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:26,120 really, really helpful for us as an organization in helping that 492 00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:29,200 breed. But that one is particularly 493 00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:33,320 unique and particularly small population and that does bring 494 00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:37,360 with it it's problems like you've said, in terms of small, 495 00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:40,880 small population to be sort of breeding from. 496 00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:45,240 So in terms of bringing in fresh genetics, it's makes it very 497 00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:48,640 hard. So the breeding of those has to 498 00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:51,640 be very carefully managed and very carefully watched. 499 00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:55,080 What makes them so unique? You mentioned a few times how 500 00:30:55,080 --> 00:30:58,440 particularly unique they are. Yeah, I think it's just because 501 00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:01,720 they were because of where they're from and, and Scottish 502 00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:06,920 islands with sort of their cattle and sheep breeds as well, 503 00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:09,760 obviously developed. You know, we talk about sort of 504 00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:14,960 county level breeds in in sort of England particularly. 505 00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:21,640 But these islands were so unique in that, you know, back before 506 00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:26,640 transport was as easy as it is now, they were literally in a 507 00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:31,120 bubble and there was very little, you know, very little 508 00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:35,040 merging of genetics. They were very much suited to 509 00:31:35,040 --> 00:31:37,160 their very particular environment. 510 00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:41,720 So they were, you know, bred and developed, you know, absolutely 511 00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:45,200 in connection with that environment where they're from. 512 00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:51,520 And so that makes them unique in that they have sort of narrow 513 00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:56,960 genetics in terms of it. It was there's not much sort of 514 00:31:56,960 --> 00:32:01,080 coming in from elsewhere in the world, whereas even our sort of 515 00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:06,720 county wide breeds, it quite quickly sort of changed in that 516 00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:11,040 there were, you know, animals and and genetics coming in from 517 00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:14,680 all over the world. So it was some of those were 518 00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:18,720 very quickly diluted, whereas these Scottish island breeds 519 00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:20,840 that didn't really happen so much. 520 00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:25,320 So it makes it, you know, a really good case study to see 521 00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:28,160 how these breeds developed in, in a bubble really. 522 00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:31,840 And I think that's why geneticists really like working 523 00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:35,720 with them and it makes their sort of research really 524 00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:39,520 interesting. So how thrilled were you as a 525 00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:43,880 trust when Little Solly the Philly foal hit the headlines 526 00:32:44,040 --> 00:32:47,360 weeks ago nationally, across the whole country? 527 00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:51,720 Articles, coverage, TV, radio? What did that mean for you and 528 00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:56,560 and for the breed? Yeah, I mean, it's it's super 529 00:32:56,560 --> 00:32:59,760 lovely when, you know, the nationals pick up on that sort 530 00:32:59,760 --> 00:33:05,160 of story because again, the sort of rare breed world can feel a 531 00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:08,560 bit like a bubble in itself. And and you sort of work away in 532 00:33:08,560 --> 00:33:12,480 this bubble of passionate people that are all very interested in 533 00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:14,960 what they do. But it can be quite hard 534 00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:17,960 sometimes to break out of that bubble and get, you know, 535 00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:22,160 national interest and get people outside the rare Breed bubble to 536 00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:24,720 be interested. So, you know, absolutely 537 00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:29,440 fantastic for us and, you know, to see that in the national news 538 00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:32,400 and for people to be interested in it and for people to take 539 00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:36,960 take the time to just read, even if it is just a short article. 540 00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:41,960 And just for awareness in terms of that particular breed. 541 00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:46,160 I'm not sure it will, you know, necessarily sort of lead to sort 542 00:33:46,160 --> 00:33:48,320 of loads more foals on the ground. 543 00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:52,600 But in terms of just bringing awareness to, to the national 544 00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:56,760 sort of press and, and the national public that this is 545 00:33:56,760 --> 00:33:59,720 going on behind the scenes and these things are happening. 546 00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:03,680 And it would be, you know, it would be lovely if people did 547 00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:07,360 just take the time to sort of think twice about what, what is 548 00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:09,120 happening with our native breeds. 549 00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:13,760 And also then perhaps, you know, like I said earlier, go to one 550 00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:17,239 of your local sort of farm parks and, and find out a bit more 551 00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:20,400 about them would be, you know, just a step in the right 552 00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:23,280 direction really. And then, you know, raising 553 00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:27,000 awareness of RBST and whether people would like to get more 554 00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:29,600 involved with us. It's interesting, isn't it, 555 00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:32,320 because it's quite difficult to get equestrian stories in the 556 00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:34,400 national press. It's it's usually in the sport 557 00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:37,719 category or, you know, when the Olympics comes round and when 558 00:34:37,719 --> 00:34:40,239 we've got any of our big equestrian competitions that 559 00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:43,239 then the world starts speaking about it a bit more. 560 00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:48,080 What was it about Solly that captured the imaginations of the 561 00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:50,840 not only the national public actually clicking on the 562 00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:53,880 article, but actually the broadcasters who chose to run 563 00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:55,520 that article? Why do you think it was that 564 00:34:55,520 --> 00:34:57,840 story? Yeah, it is. 565 00:34:57,840 --> 00:35:01,680 It's not always easy to pinpoint as to why, because we we do get 566 00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:04,760 quite good press coverage for various things. 567 00:35:05,200 --> 00:35:09,000 And we do get sort of a lot of, we get a lot of articles in the 568 00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:14,080 farming press and we do get letters sort of in, in sort of 569 00:35:14,080 --> 00:35:18,920 the national newspapers. I think for that it, I mean, 570 00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:22,320 they're gorgeous looking. I mean, you know, it, it does 571 00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:29,840 come down, I think, to people do love really nice pictures and 572 00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:34,240 and just very cute fall and you know, a lot of the time is it. 573 00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:37,800 Because it's cute and just. Come down, Yeah. 574 00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:41,080 It just comes down to people. And I think there's so much bad 575 00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:45,280 news and so much, you know, at the moment in the press. 576 00:35:45,520 --> 00:35:48,240 And I think, you know, the one, you know, particularly the 577 00:35:48,240 --> 00:35:50,840 Times, I didn't realize it was going to be in there, to be 578 00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:52,720 honest. And, you know, opening the Times 579 00:35:52,720 --> 00:35:54,760 and just, you know, it was a big picture. 580 00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:58,240 It wasn't, you know, tiny. And I just think people love a 581 00:35:58,240 --> 00:36:01,160 good news story. I think that's it, you know, 582 00:36:01,160 --> 00:36:05,240 cute picture, beautiful foal, good news story. 583 00:36:05,320 --> 00:36:08,160 And I think people just, you know, really enjoyed it for 584 00:36:08,160 --> 00:36:10,520 that. It was wonderful to see because 585 00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:13,320 as you say, there's there are certain audiences that will pick 586 00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:18,600 up on these stories, equestrian sports, farming, magazines and 587 00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:20,920 articles and sort of establishments might publish 588 00:36:20,920 --> 00:36:23,080 these kind of stories, as you say, letters. 589 00:36:23,080 --> 00:36:26,000 But to get national headlines is something else, isn't it? 590 00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:29,840 Large photos, front page spreads, front of the BBC News 591 00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:33,120 page is that sort of coverage that you just can't buy and you 592 00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:36,600 just can't orchestrate. And I love that the national 593 00:36:36,600 --> 00:36:40,240 population cared as well, which is why I've got to ask you, 594 00:36:40,240 --> 00:36:44,880 Tracy, why should we all care, whether we're equestrians or 595 00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:48,480 not, about the horses we could potentially lose? 596 00:36:49,920 --> 00:36:53,760 Yeah, I think it is very much as we've sort of touched on our, 597 00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:57,720 it's, it's a big part of our heritage and our history. 598 00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:04,280 And I think anyone who enjoys walking in the countryside or, 599 00:37:04,600 --> 00:37:08,800 you know, just has any sort of connection at all to, you know, 600 00:37:09,280 --> 00:37:12,080 going out on a Sunday into the countryside. 601 00:37:12,640 --> 00:37:16,320 Our countryside and our agriculture were very much built 602 00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:20,600 on the back of our horses and ponies and oxen and our, you 603 00:37:20,600 --> 00:37:25,200 know, breeds of livestock. And, you know, it's difficult to 604 00:37:25,200 --> 00:37:29,160 say for sure, but I don't think our countryside would be like it 605 00:37:29,160 --> 00:37:32,400 is, you know, without that in our history. 606 00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:36,760 And as we said, you know, years ago, our grandparents, great 607 00:37:36,760 --> 00:37:41,200 grandparents would have probably all had horses in their lives 608 00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:44,720 for one reason or another. And it's just that that's, you 609 00:37:44,720 --> 00:37:47,920 know, gone by the wayside as generations have passed. 610 00:37:48,360 --> 00:37:52,600 But so, you know, anyone that's interested, has any interest in 611 00:37:52,600 --> 00:37:57,640 the countryside or rural life history of any sort and our 612 00:37:57,640 --> 00:38:02,200 culture and where we've come from, I think, you know, delving 613 00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:07,520 into looking at our native breeds, horses and ponies is a 614 00:38:07,520 --> 00:38:10,120 really lovely way to connect back to that. 615 00:38:11,520 --> 00:38:14,720 And showcasing what some of these breeds can do. 616 00:38:14,720 --> 00:38:17,640 I mean, the sheer strength that we've mentioned of the Suffolk 617 00:38:17,640 --> 00:38:21,400 Punch and the Shire. I was actually shocked to hear 618 00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:24,440 of the the risk that the Shire is facing. 619 00:38:24,640 --> 00:38:26,120 Can you talk us through that, Tracy? 620 00:38:26,120 --> 00:38:29,320 Why are the shires affected? Because there's such a When you 621 00:38:29,320 --> 00:38:32,160 think of Great Britain, you often think of the Shire horse, 622 00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:33,880 don't you? I know, I certainly do. 623 00:38:33,880 --> 00:38:39,000 Why are they so at risk? Yeah, I mean very much hand in 624 00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:41,360 hand with the way agriculture has changed. 625 00:38:41,360 --> 00:38:43,640 You know, they had a place, they had a job. 626 00:38:44,480 --> 00:38:47,880 A lot of them helped in the war, particularly World War One. 627 00:38:47,960 --> 00:38:53,960 A lot were lost there. And just over time, they're big 628 00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:57,600 horses. Again, going back to the skills, 629 00:38:57,640 --> 00:39:01,640 if you're not used to being around and dealing with an 630 00:39:01,640 --> 00:39:05,680 animal that size, that's a whole new skill set. 631 00:39:05,680 --> 00:39:10,040 And it's, it's something that, you know, I very much think the 632 00:39:10,040 --> 00:39:14,400 young people that, you know, are going into keeping and breeding 633 00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:18,640 shires have probably had some connection to them through 634 00:39:18,640 --> 00:39:24,160 parents, grandparents, you know, historically and have been used 635 00:39:24,160 --> 00:39:27,200 to them. So I think it's as much about 636 00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:31,600 that they're big animals to feed, you know, they're big 637 00:39:31,600 --> 00:39:37,200 animals to stable or, or, you know, have had it room for. 638 00:39:37,440 --> 00:39:42,640 So even those sort of practical constraints can affect them. 639 00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:47,800 So in terms of that, it's, you know, people have got to be 640 00:39:47,800 --> 00:39:51,440 quite dedicated and, and passionate about them to want to 641 00:39:52,680 --> 00:39:54,480 have them in their lives. I guess. 642 00:39:54,920 --> 00:40:00,920 So, you know, in terms of the practicalities, it's, it's 643 00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:05,000 people that really want to make sure that these this breed 644 00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:07,880 survives. There have been, there's been 645 00:40:08,600 --> 00:40:12,240 people that have taken to riding them and using them for new 646 00:40:13,320 --> 00:40:17,520 areas of equine sport. So that's a gross area. 647 00:40:17,680 --> 00:40:21,160 It's not. I'd say there's a bit of a split 648 00:40:21,160 --> 00:40:24,520 between people that think that's OK and people that don't. 649 00:40:25,040 --> 00:40:29,800 So that can cause issues. You know, there are people that 650 00:40:29,800 --> 00:40:32,880 think, well, we need A use for these animals in order for 651 00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:36,160 people to keep them. And then I some sort of more 652 00:40:36,160 --> 00:40:39,520 traditional people aren't on board with that and, and sort of 653 00:40:39,520 --> 00:40:45,240 don't think it's right because it has slightly changed the 654 00:40:45,320 --> 00:40:48,800 focus of the breeding. So you probably want to breed a 655 00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:52,440 slightly different animal for riding than you do for working 656 00:40:52,440 --> 00:40:55,760 in the fields. So the traits have altered 657 00:40:55,760 --> 00:40:58,400 slightly and I think that's where people are coming from in 658 00:40:58,400 --> 00:41:00,840 terms of not being on totally on board with it. 659 00:41:01,160 --> 00:41:03,960 So you do have to watch things like that with the breed. 660 00:41:04,920 --> 00:41:08,160 There's also been they, there's for the Shire, there's been some 661 00:41:08,160 --> 00:41:12,160 really popular stallions and people have used sort of popular 662 00:41:12,160 --> 00:41:14,840 stallions a lot. So that leads to, you know, some 663 00:41:14,840 --> 00:41:17,200 inbreeding. There's been quite a lot of 664 00:41:17,200 --> 00:41:22,520 export of shires to other parts of the world because they are, 665 00:41:22,720 --> 00:41:25,280 they're quite popular in the States for example. 666 00:41:25,600 --> 00:41:30,880 So that sort of led to some of the animals going out of the UK. 667 00:41:31,600 --> 00:41:37,080 But I think on the whole, it's about finding new ways of 668 00:41:37,080 --> 00:41:43,040 utilising the breed and, you know, helping people that want 669 00:41:43,040 --> 00:41:46,480 to get into it to connect with people who are very experienced 670 00:41:46,480 --> 00:41:49,720 in keeping shires. And that way young people want 671 00:41:49,720 --> 00:41:53,360 with an interest can go into keeping them with confidence. 672 00:41:53,360 --> 00:41:56,760 I wouldn't want young people that are interested to just go 673 00:41:56,760 --> 00:42:00,040 and buy a Shire and think that it's just, you know, any old 674 00:42:00,040 --> 00:42:02,760 sort of horse. I think you do need, you know, 675 00:42:02,760 --> 00:42:07,120 that sort of background and and experience and somebody to 676 00:42:07,120 --> 00:42:10,240 perhaps mentor you or help you along the way with keeping 677 00:42:10,240 --> 00:42:13,880 something like shires. And Suffolk punches, of course. 678 00:42:13,880 --> 00:42:15,840 And the punch. Yeah. 679 00:42:15,840 --> 00:42:17,960 And the punch too, because thinking of that, and that's 680 00:42:17,960 --> 00:42:22,120 really interesting point of view is that all horses are a huge 681 00:42:22,120 --> 00:42:25,040 commitment, a huge undertaking, a learning curve. 682 00:42:25,040 --> 00:42:28,880 You have to have knowledge to take on a horse in whatever way 683 00:42:28,880 --> 00:42:32,760 that might be as a, as a ridden partner, as a companion, as a, 684 00:42:32,800 --> 00:42:36,520 as a pet simply or whether your horse will have a job when you 685 00:42:36,520 --> 00:42:38,840 take it on. But of course with these larger 686 00:42:38,840 --> 00:42:40,560 breeds there is a level of danger. 687 00:42:40,600 --> 00:42:43,960 I've seen the Suffolk Punch in action and they can be very 688 00:42:43,960 --> 00:42:47,040 bulshy and forthright. They have a lot of weight behind 689 00:42:47,040 --> 00:42:49,400 them. They are hugely robust, aren't 690 00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:51,120 they? And and any horse that knocks 691 00:42:51,120 --> 00:42:54,160 you flying or walks through you is dangerous. 692 00:42:54,160 --> 00:42:57,400 But you can imagine that on a greater scale with the Suffolk 693 00:42:57,400 --> 00:43:01,000 Punch and the Shire. Yeah, definitely. 694 00:43:01,000 --> 00:43:05,640 I think there isn't, there is a particular skill in at the end 695 00:43:05,640 --> 00:43:08,920 of the day, you know, a mere human is never going to stop an 696 00:43:08,920 --> 00:43:12,520 animal that size. So it's all about how you train 697 00:43:12,520 --> 00:43:17,120 them, how you manage them and and these are sort of the tips 698 00:43:17,120 --> 00:43:20,320 and you know that sort of people that have kept them before will 699 00:43:20,320 --> 00:43:23,000 be able to pass on to newbies. Really. 700 00:43:23,960 --> 00:43:27,440 I think it is very and it's about the breeding as well in 701 00:43:27,440 --> 00:43:32,080 terms of temperament. You know, it's OK for experience 702 00:43:32,080 --> 00:43:36,160 more experienced people if they want, you know, a Suffolk horse 703 00:43:36,160 --> 00:43:40,320 that's slightly more bolshie. But if you, you know, if you 704 00:43:40,320 --> 00:43:43,200 want, if you are a newbie and you want to get into that breed, 705 00:43:43,520 --> 00:43:47,400 you know, I would definitely recommend looking at the sort of 706 00:43:47,400 --> 00:43:50,240 breeding and temperament of an animal that you want to get. 707 00:43:50,240 --> 00:43:55,760 And it might be that, you know, breeders sort of don't want to 708 00:43:55,760 --> 00:43:58,640 breed from some animals that are particularly bad tempered or 709 00:43:58,640 --> 00:44:01,320 bolshie because they are, you know, huge animals. 710 00:44:01,320 --> 00:44:05,560 And so we expect our heavy horses to be well mannered and, 711 00:44:05,560 --> 00:44:10,200 you know, to be lead. And you know, so very much comes 712 00:44:10,200 --> 00:44:13,040 into the sort of training aspect of it as well from when they're 713 00:44:13,040 --> 00:44:15,960 young. Now bear with us, Trace. 714 00:44:15,960 --> 00:44:17,760 I'm going to go and pull the curtains because the light has 715 00:44:17,760 --> 00:44:22,120 changed and I want to finish our interview without having a 716 00:44:22,120 --> 00:44:25,760 bright light in my face. So hold the line for one second. 717 00:44:48,720 --> 00:44:52,400 There we go, and complete darkness now with only false 718 00:44:52,400 --> 00:44:54,720 light. Now we've got only the light 719 00:44:54,720 --> 00:44:57,280 that we can actually guarantee. I love the sun. 720 00:44:57,280 --> 00:45:02,160 I'm not moaning, I promise. Right, Let me settle down so I'm 721 00:45:02,160 --> 00:45:05,880 not wriggling and fidgeting. There we go. 722 00:45:07,040 --> 00:45:10,080 That's frustrating, but that will be better. 723 00:45:10,080 --> 00:45:12,560 We don't want to end it with me squinting. 724 00:45:13,680 --> 00:45:17,320 There we go. Right. 725 00:45:17,320 --> 00:45:20,480 Hang on, let me have a look. Yeah. 726 00:45:23,480 --> 00:45:27,720 And to you, Solly, that we've been talking about, Tracy, what 727 00:45:27,720 --> 00:45:30,160 difference and impact will she make? 728 00:45:30,160 --> 00:45:32,720 Obviously, she's brought a lot of attention, a lot of eyes to 729 00:45:32,720 --> 00:45:36,040 the story through hitting the national headlines, which is 730 00:45:36,040 --> 00:45:38,640 fantastic. But what impact will she have 731 00:45:38,640 --> 00:45:44,160 genetically as one of actually only 400 Iriskay ponies left? 732 00:45:46,320 --> 00:45:47,800 Yeah. I mean, I think the importance 733 00:45:47,800 --> 00:45:51,920 is that every sort of live fall on the ground is, is a bonus for 734 00:45:51,920 --> 00:45:54,880 us, for a breed which is in such small numbers. 735 00:45:54,880 --> 00:46:00,880 So, you know, each live fall that gets to each life stage is 736 00:46:00,880 --> 00:46:03,680 a massive bonus to a small population like that. 737 00:46:03,960 --> 00:46:08,480 So therefore, you know, she might not change the entire sort 738 00:46:08,480 --> 00:46:13,320 of trajectory of the breed, but every single time there's a, you 739 00:46:13,320 --> 00:46:18,400 know, a live fall that is healthy and, you know, has the 740 00:46:18,400 --> 00:46:22,680 possibility to be bred from in the future is, you know, a big 741 00:46:22,680 --> 00:46:25,520 bonus. And everyone that's born does 742 00:46:25,520 --> 00:46:29,280 make a big difference because that gradually increases the, 743 00:46:29,600 --> 00:46:33,320 you know, population from which they can, which we can breathe 744 00:46:33,320 --> 00:46:35,560 from. So it does make a difference. 745 00:46:36,840 --> 00:46:41,080 And I suppose that's that that is the message, you know, to 746 00:46:41,080 --> 00:46:46,600 anyone who is, who is the owner of, of any of our rare breeds is 747 00:46:46,800 --> 00:46:51,960 the importance of if you can breed, then, you know, get the 748 00:46:51,960 --> 00:46:55,200 right advice. Talk to you, breed society, talk 749 00:46:55,200 --> 00:47:00,320 to us, look at, you know, levels of inbreeding and, you know, 750 00:47:00,320 --> 00:47:04,280 carefully choose your sire. And then, you know, work, like I 751 00:47:04,280 --> 00:47:07,720 said earlier, work closely with a good equine vet to make sure 752 00:47:07,720 --> 00:47:12,840 that, you know, mare has a a healthy pregnancy and foal is, 753 00:47:12,880 --> 00:47:16,680 you know, has there's a healthy birth and a lovely healthy foal 754 00:47:16,680 --> 00:47:19,520 on the ground really would be sort of my advice. 755 00:47:20,840 --> 00:47:25,360 And Tracy, what will be the catalyst to turn it around for 756 00:47:25,360 --> 00:47:29,000 these rare breeds? We've talked about using them 757 00:47:29,000 --> 00:47:34,080 for conservation, giving them other jobs, but I know that many 758 00:47:34,080 --> 00:47:37,520 breeds come in and out of fashion, quote UN quote. 759 00:47:37,880 --> 00:47:42,240 How do we actually not only save them from the brink, but bring 760 00:47:42,240 --> 00:47:46,320 them back into safe numbers? What will do that do you think? 761 00:47:48,160 --> 00:47:51,280 Well, yeah, I mean, you rightly say about conservation grazing 762 00:47:51,280 --> 00:47:55,040 has been a big game changer for rec wines in the last few years, 763 00:47:55,040 --> 00:47:56,560 and I think that is going to grow. 764 00:47:56,560 --> 00:47:59,320 I think that will expand even further. 765 00:48:00,120 --> 00:48:04,320 I think there are more people interested in sustainable 766 00:48:04,320 --> 00:48:08,600 agriculture, and I think there are more and more people looking 767 00:48:08,600 --> 00:48:11,680 at alternatives. I'm not for a minute suggesting 768 00:48:11,680 --> 00:48:15,120 that every farm is about to go back to pulling a plow with, you 769 00:48:15,120 --> 00:48:19,800 know, a Shire or Suffolk. But I think there are more and 770 00:48:19,800 --> 00:48:24,240 more people interested in taking parts of their farm out of 771 00:48:24,240 --> 00:48:28,760 intensive agriculture and looking at alternative ways to 772 00:48:28,840 --> 00:48:32,600 to utilize with marginal land where they don't want to put a 773 00:48:32,600 --> 00:48:35,520 tractor. There's more interest in in 774 00:48:35,520 --> 00:48:37,920 heavy horses working the land for them. 775 00:48:38,360 --> 00:48:43,480 And with that come people who want to start a business so 776 00:48:44,000 --> 00:48:46,560 around that, so that we're seeing more and more businesses 777 00:48:46,560 --> 00:48:50,960 coming on board that are, rather than having a farm, they're 778 00:48:50,960 --> 00:48:54,520 offering conservation grazing to other organisations with all 779 00:48:54,520 --> 00:48:56,880 sorts of species. And then there are other 780 00:48:56,880 --> 00:49:01,000 businesses where people are offering this alternative method 781 00:49:01,040 --> 00:49:05,400 of cultivating marginal land using heavy horses. 782 00:49:06,480 --> 00:49:14,880 So I think as time progresses and agriculture changes, I think 783 00:49:14,880 --> 00:49:18,400 we will see more and more people wanting to do these aspects as 784 00:49:18,400 --> 00:49:21,600 stand alone businesses. And I'm hoping that that will 785 00:49:22,520 --> 00:49:26,920 mean that there will be more interest in our native breeds 786 00:49:26,920 --> 00:49:34,720 and use utilizing them that way. It might not be the catalyst 787 00:49:34,720 --> 00:49:38,640 that you're talking about, but I think it will grow. 788 00:49:38,640 --> 00:49:40,880 And I think it's like everything. 789 00:49:40,880 --> 00:49:43,400 Once people start doing something and there's interest 790 00:49:43,400 --> 00:49:46,080 in it, community builds around that. 791 00:49:46,080 --> 00:49:48,680 And then that community spreads to different parts of the 792 00:49:48,680 --> 00:49:51,560 country. And then I think it's more like 793 00:49:51,560 --> 00:49:55,440 a slow growth over time, but it's making sure that that 794 00:49:55,440 --> 00:49:57,480 growth is going in the right direction. 795 00:49:58,120 --> 00:50:00,680 And of course it it ticks so many boxes, doesn't it? 796 00:50:00,680 --> 00:50:04,600 Because not only is it helping the horses, but also the planet 797 00:50:04,680 --> 00:50:08,360 and the landscape and the grazing and the planet and the 798 00:50:08,360 --> 00:50:11,440 wildlife that share that landscape. 799 00:50:12,720 --> 00:50:14,600 Absolutely. So, you know, I mentioned 800 00:50:14,600 --> 00:50:18,080 logging earlier. If you're in an ancient woodland 801 00:50:19,040 --> 00:50:24,960 and you need to say, extract some coppice or some timber, you 802 00:50:24,960 --> 00:50:29,280 know, you can imagine the the impact it has, not just with 803 00:50:29,280 --> 00:50:32,600 having machinery, you know, the, the impact on the ground, but 804 00:50:32,600 --> 00:50:36,960 the noise, the disturbance. Whereas if you've got horses 805 00:50:37,000 --> 00:50:40,960 working, it's just a completely different feeling in the wood. 806 00:50:41,240 --> 00:50:45,280 You know, it's peaceful. It's not, there's not nearly the 807 00:50:45,280 --> 00:50:49,040 disturbance to the wildlife. And it's just, I think for the 808 00:50:49,040 --> 00:50:52,880 person working the horses, I, you know, people I've spoken to 809 00:50:52,880 --> 00:50:55,440 that do that as a job, I'm quite jealous. 810 00:50:55,440 --> 00:50:58,960 I think it's, you know, I think it's a fantastic way of life and 811 00:50:58,960 --> 00:51:02,360 for people that are dedicated to it, you know, I think is 812 00:51:02,360 --> 00:51:05,480 absolutely amazing. So it is, it's about that. 813 00:51:05,680 --> 00:51:07,960 It's about that whole sustainability picture. 814 00:51:07,960 --> 00:51:11,560 It's not, it's like I say, it's not gonna we're not about to 815 00:51:11,560 --> 00:51:14,160 replace tractors, I don't think with heavy haul bosses again. 816 00:51:14,440 --> 00:51:18,040 But I think if we support those that are passionate about these 817 00:51:18,040 --> 00:51:22,880 breeds to do this type of work and it's good for rural industry 818 00:51:22,880 --> 00:51:24,120 as well. If there are more and more 819 00:51:24,120 --> 00:51:27,200 people wanting to set up stand alone businesses using these 820 00:51:27,200 --> 00:51:31,400 breeds then you know that's good for for rural life as well. 821 00:51:32,080 --> 00:51:34,440 And we've got an awful lot of making up to do with our planet, 822 00:51:34,440 --> 00:51:38,440 haven't we, in conservation and doing good and trying to go back 823 00:51:38,440 --> 00:51:41,960 to sort of traditional regenerative methods as well to 824 00:51:41,960 --> 00:51:45,040 go more lightly on the land, which is what you're talking 825 00:51:45,040 --> 00:51:46,760 about. And how lovely that horses can 826 00:51:46,760 --> 00:51:49,040 play a part in that. And actually, there's that room 827 00:51:49,040 --> 00:51:52,760 for growth if more and more people take on this way of life. 828 00:51:53,000 --> 00:51:56,000 And we've had on the podcast before Hitchin Farm horses. 829 00:51:56,000 --> 00:51:58,680 And I don't know if you've seen what they do, Tracy, if you 830 00:51:58,680 --> 00:52:01,040 haven't seen their YouTube channel, you'd love it. 831 00:52:01,240 --> 00:52:04,320 We had them on and they talked all about their logging and to 832 00:52:04,320 --> 00:52:07,360 see their stallions and they have great big heavy horses. 833 00:52:07,600 --> 00:52:10,280 For those who are listening and watching that haven't seen it, 834 00:52:10,280 --> 00:52:13,600 do go back scroll and and have a look at the previous episode 835 00:52:13,600 --> 00:52:16,160 that we did with Hitchin farm horses. 836 00:52:16,680 --> 00:52:20,240 And wow, to see those stallions working the land, heaving those 837 00:52:20,240 --> 00:52:24,240 logs up great hills through ditches, leaping often at times 838 00:52:24,240 --> 00:52:28,200 through the trees and their agility and how they can weave 839 00:52:28,200 --> 00:52:31,560 through the land instead of tractors getting stuck or you 840 00:52:31,560 --> 00:52:34,720 know, churning up the mud. You know, all of that. 841 00:52:34,720 --> 00:52:37,200 You can just imagine the sort of horror stories that must have 842 00:52:37,200 --> 00:52:40,800 happened when trying to use a tractor in that scenario. 843 00:52:41,000 --> 00:52:45,080 But how are the horses just are so despite being heavily built, 844 00:52:45,080 --> 00:52:48,280 are so liked through through the land and on their on their 845 00:52:48,280 --> 00:52:50,240 hooves. Just incredible. 846 00:52:50,240 --> 00:52:53,080 So hopefully we see lots more of that at play. 847 00:52:53,440 --> 00:52:57,920 And I wanted to have a look at some of the horses that we sadly 848 00:52:57,920 --> 00:53:01,040 have lost over the years. And just thinking that I don't 849 00:53:01,040 --> 00:53:05,680 even know Tracy, some of these names the Galloway pony from 850 00:53:05,680 --> 00:53:10,360 Scotland, the excuse my pronunciation, but the Narragan 851 00:53:10,360 --> 00:53:15,280 and set pacer from the US, the Norfolk Trotter, the old English 852 00:53:15,280 --> 00:53:19,840 black, the Turkmen horse, the Fagana horse, the Harrington 853 00:53:19,840 --> 00:53:23,080 hippos horse, the Irish hobby horse. 854 00:53:23,080 --> 00:53:26,440 Wow, what name? The Tarpon, which is a Eurasian 855 00:53:26,440 --> 00:53:32,920 wild horse, the Abaco Barb horse, the the Erichon horse, 856 00:53:32,920 --> 00:53:36,560 the American zebra, the Neapolitan horse, the quagga, 857 00:53:36,680 --> 00:53:41,440 some great names as well. And the Syrian wild ass as well. 858 00:53:42,040 --> 00:53:45,040 And you just think most of these, in fact, all of these 859 00:53:45,040 --> 00:53:47,840 I've never heard of before. And the only things that I know, 860 00:53:47,960 --> 00:53:51,960 you know, know are the the place names and how sad that these 861 00:53:51,960 --> 00:53:54,600 horses have completely disappeared and will never be 862 00:53:54,600 --> 00:53:58,120 seen again. What difference will it make 863 00:53:58,160 --> 00:54:01,520 Tracy if the horse is on the rare list now in the at risk 864 00:54:02,000 --> 00:54:06,040 list now were to disappear in decades time? 865 00:54:08,400 --> 00:54:13,640 I think it's about, we talk a lot in recent times about 866 00:54:13,640 --> 00:54:17,040 biodiversity and I think when people think of biodiversity, 867 00:54:17,040 --> 00:54:20,280 they think of our butterflies and our, you know, our botany 868 00:54:20,280 --> 00:54:23,520 enough plants and our birds. I think that's everyone's 869 00:54:23,520 --> 00:54:26,320 natural reaction. But people often forget that 870 00:54:26,920 --> 00:54:30,720 biodiversity is our livestock. It's our livestock breeds. 871 00:54:30,960 --> 00:54:34,640 And so we don't know what the future holds in terms of climate 872 00:54:34,640 --> 00:54:41,840 change, in terms of agriculture, in other all aspects of our 873 00:54:41,840 --> 00:54:45,200 life, really, we don't have a crystal ball. 874 00:54:45,200 --> 00:54:48,720 So we don't know what we're going to need in the future. 875 00:54:49,120 --> 00:54:53,240 And our livestock breeds, including our equines, are very 876 00:54:53,240 --> 00:54:57,360 much a part of our biodiversity. So I think when people are 877 00:54:57,360 --> 00:55:00,160 having conversations around biodiversity and naturally think 878 00:55:00,160 --> 00:55:04,200 of wildlife, it's really useful if people can start thinking 879 00:55:04,200 --> 00:55:07,240 about our livestock breeds as part of that as well and start 880 00:55:07,240 --> 00:55:09,120 having the conversations around that. 881 00:55:10,200 --> 00:55:13,280 Because like I say, we don't know what we're going to need. 882 00:55:13,280 --> 00:55:16,520 We we don't know what genetics we're going to need in the 883 00:55:16,520 --> 00:55:18,080 future. We don't know what we're going 884 00:55:18,080 --> 00:55:23,000 to need help with. And so that's why it's going to 885 00:55:23,000 --> 00:55:27,200 be really vitally important that over the next, I'd say sort of 886 00:55:27,200 --> 00:55:31,880 30-40 years, we ensure that we don't lose any more of our 887 00:55:31,880 --> 00:55:36,600 breeds, which is exactly sort of the role of RBST to to work 888 00:55:36,600 --> 00:55:38,960 behind the scenes to make sure that doesn't happen. 889 00:55:40,240 --> 00:55:43,080 Oh well, Tracy, thank you so much for coming on Curious 890 00:55:43,080 --> 00:55:45,920 Equestrian. It's been so inspiring for those 891 00:55:45,920 --> 00:55:49,080 listening who are thinking I can't own a shy horse, I can't 892 00:55:49,080 --> 00:55:51,960 own a Suffolk Punch. I'm up to my ears and horses 893 00:55:51,960 --> 00:55:54,080 already or I just don't have the skills. 894 00:55:54,360 --> 00:55:56,160 What can we do? What can we? 895 00:55:56,160 --> 00:55:58,120 You've mentioned your brilliant work at the Trust. 896 00:55:58,120 --> 00:56:02,440 What can the average horse lover do to help make a great impact 897 00:56:02,440 --> 00:56:07,680 to save some of these breeds? Yeah, I think it is about as I 898 00:56:07,680 --> 00:56:09,360 said earlier, the breed societies. 899 00:56:09,360 --> 00:56:11,840 If you've got a particular interest in a particular breed, 900 00:56:11,840 --> 00:56:15,120 then check out the website of of the breed society to do with 901 00:56:15,120 --> 00:56:16,960 that breed. You know, you might just want to 902 00:56:16,960 --> 00:56:19,880 join them and get their sort of information and newsletter and 903 00:56:19,880 --> 00:56:22,280 keep up to date with it can be as simple as that. 904 00:56:22,280 --> 00:56:25,160 And you're supporting the breed society then who are doing the 905 00:56:25,160 --> 00:56:29,920 work, you know, alongside us, just having conversations, you 906 00:56:29,920 --> 00:56:33,200 know, like this today, you know, when you're chatting to sort of 907 00:56:33,200 --> 00:56:36,760 your friends, you know, at the riding stables or, you know, 908 00:56:36,760 --> 00:56:40,920 delivery yard or wherever, you know, just chat to people about 909 00:56:40,920 --> 00:56:43,920 what they know about the native breeds and have they ever kept 910 00:56:43,920 --> 00:56:46,800 them and what do they know about them and just start the 911 00:56:46,800 --> 00:56:51,280 conversations. And from my point of view, I'm 912 00:56:51,280 --> 00:56:56,400 doing a, I'm doing a project next year on, on conservation 913 00:56:56,400 --> 00:56:59,320 grazing with equine. So I want to expand our 914 00:56:59,320 --> 00:57:02,920 knowledge base on what people are doing on the ground, what 915 00:57:02,920 --> 00:57:05,280 breeds they're using, how they're utilising them. 916 00:57:05,560 --> 00:57:10,360 So if anyone in, you know, that's listing that is involved 917 00:57:10,360 --> 00:57:13,520 with native breeds and conservation grazing, then you 918 00:57:13,520 --> 00:57:15,000 know, we'd love to hear from them. 919 00:57:15,320 --> 00:57:17,920 But just I think have the conversations. 920 00:57:17,920 --> 00:57:20,880 It means that our breeds are being talked about. 921 00:57:20,880 --> 00:57:25,240 It means if you go to a show or you know, an agricultural show 922 00:57:25,240 --> 00:57:28,440 or a horse show, just have a look around the classes, just 923 00:57:28,440 --> 00:57:31,920 see what breeds are there, what breeds are represented and you 924 00:57:31,920 --> 00:57:34,680 know, go and ask some of the people that are keeping those 925 00:57:34,680 --> 00:57:36,640 breeds and just have an interest in it. 926 00:57:36,920 --> 00:57:40,640 You know, equine can be like a lot of things can be a bit of a 927 00:57:40,640 --> 00:57:44,480 bubble and it's just good to get out of your bubble and just talk 928 00:57:44,480 --> 00:57:46,680 to people that are doing something maybe slightly 929 00:57:46,680 --> 00:57:49,160 different to you are. And I think that just raises 930 00:57:49,160 --> 00:57:52,760 awareness across the board then. Tracy, thank you you for coming 931 00:57:52,760 --> 00:57:54,320 on Curious. A question you're going to stick 932 00:57:54,320 --> 00:57:57,680 around and answer some listener questions in our members zone. 933 00:57:57,840 --> 00:58:01,880 So if you want to hear our Q&A, please join our special 934 00:58:01,880 --> 00:58:03,520 membership here at Curious Equestrian. 935 00:58:03,520 --> 00:58:06,000 But for now, Tracy, thanks ever so much for coming on the 936 00:58:06,000 --> 00:58:08,760 podcast. Thank you so much for having me, 937 00:58:08,760 --> 00:58:09,600 it's been a pleasure.