Why should we care about the rare breeds of horses that are
at risk of extinction? And why are there so many breeds
of horses that are at risk of being lost forever?
Welcome to Curious Equestrian. I'm Anna Louise, your host, and
in this podcast we delve deep into all sorts of equestrian
conversations with brilliant guests, experts in their field,
equine professionals, well known names, and horse owners like you
or I. In this episode, we're talking
to Tracy Wothen Jones, a conservation expert at the Rare
Breed Survival Trust, to delve deep and talk about rare pools
of genetics. How difficult it is to keep
certain breeds going. The rare horses that are at risk
that are on the watch list like the magnificent Dales pony, the
very beautiful Eriscae Island pony, the Suffolk Punch horse
that is majestic and strong and actually quite beast like the
Exmoor pony and lots of other horse breeds at risk like the
ginormous Shire horse that is absolutely magnificent to watch
in action. If you've ever seen the move,
we're going to be talking all about the struggles and what we
can do to help protect these horses and ponies.
If you enjoy this episode, please share, give us a like and
subscribe so that we can keep bringing you these awesome
guests. It really helps our podcasts to
be seen and to spread the word. Let's dive in with Tracy, shall
we? Tracy, welcome to Curious
Equestrian. Thank you.
Really pleased to be here. Tracy, why are there so many
breeds of horses at risk of being lost forever?
It's not a simple answer in that it is quite complex depending on
the breed. Our native breed equines were
bred and developed locally so hence why some of their names
are associated with the areas that they come from originally.
So for various reasons, but predominantly going back, they
had a purpose, they had a job to do in life.
So whether it was with the heavy horses and agriculture or some
of the smaller ponies, it might have been carrying things for
people, it might have been other types of work that they were
developed for. And unfortunately a lot of that
work has ceased being done and we don't need them for those
purposes anymore. So although some of the breeds
have been been very successful at repurposing their sort of
need for people, others unfortunately haven't.
And so I think that's probably predominantly the main reason
that some of them have have, you know, been in trouble over the
last sort of few decades. And just thinking about those
jobs, you know, horses were a part of the community, weren't
they? They were part of people's
families livelihoods and actually the weekly schedule of
productivity and money earning actually largely depending on
depended on horses, didn't it, Whether they were working the
farm or helping with low carry heavy loads, operating carts.
What sort of jobs can you run us through Tracy?
Were horses responsible? For, yeah.
So if you take the sort of heavy horses, they were very much the
pulling carts, the pulling plows, the actual sort of back
when mechanisation was very minimal, but we still use tools
on the land. They would have been very much
for that and carrying heavy loads.
And then some of the smaller ponies, the things like up in
the sort of Scottish islands, collecting seaweed, even
carrying, you know, for the family, like you say, very much
part of the family. So, you know, baskets on either
side and, and carrying things, shopping and goods that, you
know, people before people had cars and vehicles and you know,
could just throw everything in their boot.
They were very much associated with that type of work, even
sort of milling and things like that, turning mills, stones that
also everything really before sort of the days of tractors
were pretty much done by oxen and horses.
And even if you look up in places like Scotland, things
like stag hunting and, and carrying, you know, the, the
sort of stags that have been cold, they would have carried
them back to the main house. So food gathering, shopping, you
know, all sorts of jobs that were associated with family
life, agricultural life across the country were predominantly
done by our breeds of equine. It's really interesting, isn't
it? I was walking up and down the
High Street the other day and and watching how the dogs on
leads were interacting with shoppers and families were
stopping and couples were stopping and everyone in talking
to the dog and, and I thought, wow, one, one day, you know, in
history, days gone by, that would have been horses, yes,
that would have been passing by in the high streets pulling the
carts or walking up and down carrying for families and people
greeting horses and waving to each other.
And now they're very much removed from society, aren't
they? I mean I did.
I lived in Ireland for 8 1/2 years in in the Republic of
Ireland. I was in County Court, which is
very near County Kerry. So we used to spend a lot of
time around Killarney. And still now Killarney, if you
visit there, it, the town centre is full of horses pulling carts
for the tourists. And it's still very much a part
of, you know, sort of everyday life for people in Killarney and
the surrounding areas. They very much do still use that
as a traditional sort of day out for tourists.
And so, you know, it's quite, it's, it is quite a unique
experience when you still go to other parts of the world as
well. And, you know, you go into sort
of urban places and there are equines, horses and ponies
around. And we've got very much detached
from that here in this country. And so, yes, I think generally
people would have had a lot, lot more contact on a daily basis
with our horses and ponies. And, you know, unless you're,
you know, very much into your sort of, you know, horse riding
and, and sports, then most people won't come across horses
and ponies anymore. Do you think that's part of the
problem, Tracy, that not only have horses lost their jobs in
society, but actually people? Now you're either part of the
equestrian community as a horse rider or a horse owner, or
you're not part of that world at all.
And actually, people are so removed from horses.
Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's generally
very much a generalisation, but I find that there there's a lot
more fear around horses and ponies perhaps then there would
have been years ago. And purely because people don't
come across them. The only caveat I would say to
that is the the sort of whole world of equine therapy that is
very much opening up in a big way and has done for sort of the
last few years. And I think that will, as it
grows, which I'm sure it will come overcome some of that
because, you know, if people have to sort of spend time with
horses and ponies, you know, as therapy, then I'm sure that's
going to break down that fear. And it's going to give a lot of
our breeds, you know, new lease of life.
And, you know, some of our sort of native breeds, especially the
sort of smaller ponies, are going to be very well suited to
that. And that's such an interesting
thought. So equine therapy?
What other jobs could these rare and at risk horses and ponies do
in modern day society do you think?
Yeah. So with some of the heavy breeds
very much conservation, not just grazing, but things like bracken
control logging. So you know, quite a lot of our
heavy breeds have been utilised in recent years for low impact
logging. So instead of sending in tracked
machinery, it's a very sort of more gentle way of extracting
timber from woodland, especially sort of some of our more
sensitive woodland. So that's been a big boost for
some of our heavier breeds. And then in terms of
conservation grazing, like our Dartmoors and ex Moors and some
of the what you'd classes, more semi feral breeds have done an
excellent job and are very popular now in conservation
grazing. And then of course you have, you
know, sort of there is the whole world with the sort of riding
and and driving that, you know, people have looked back to some
of our native breeds, I think just for passion and interest as
well really. Because of course they contain,
and their stories contain so much history, don't they?
The horses of the past tell our human stories of the past.
Absolutely. That definitely there's a strong
element of heritage and you often find that people that are
keeping and breeding our native breeds are incredibly passionate
people. You know they are, they are
committed and you know they spend a lot of their own
resources and time and on promoting these breeds and
making sure that they do continue into the future.
So I think individual sort of people's passion is a big driver
of this as well. And actually in small
communities, although these horses may be at risk, like you
say, the passion there for the breed is like a cult following,
isn't it? Yeah.
So I think like you sort of rightly said earlier, it can be
your view can be a bit skewed. I think in terms of if you're
from an area like you say that's got a really strong following
for a local breed, then you might be forgiven for sort of
thinking it's all OK. But that's quite skewed in terms
of when you look at the numbers, you know, at a national level,
it doesn't sort of represent it in a true way.
So, you know, if you're, if you're in the sort of culture of
that particular breed and you're very involved in it and you go
to the shows and you know, it's quite easy to go to our sort of
agricultural and shows and go, oh, look, you know, there's
classes of them. But that is it, that is sort of
the representation of the breed. And when you look at national
numbers, it it's more worrying. That's so important.
You mention that I'm from Kent but recently moved to Suffolk
and I've seen many a suffered punch even though they are on
the rare list. So I feel very fortunate that
I've been able to be up close and personal with suffered
punches that are in fact down the road from my house and have
been able to interact with them and see their sheer size and
power. And actually how they're so very
different from so many horses that I've been around my whole
life. And have witnessed that cult
passion following for the Suffolk Punch horse in all sorts
of different communities. Not even just the older
generation who have actually shared stories of when they saw
the Suffolk punches plow in the field, but the new generations
coming up and Jimmy's farm, you know, very well known TV figure
Jimmy showed me around his Suffolk punches and what they're
doing for his farm and how the new generations of enthusiasts
are coming up through. How important is that, Tracy?
That actually it's not just the communities that remember these
horses in situ, that it's the new generations coming up that,
yeah, find that same passion. Absolutely get very critical and
it's something that, you know, RBST we work a lot on is they
try trying to, you know, engage with younger people and find
where they're at and what they're interested in.
And I think it's interesting to know that not just the breeds
that are rare, but the skills that go with them.
So the skills of keeping some of these breeds, the skills of
breeding them, the skills of working them.
It's not enough to just keep the breed alive.
I think we've got to keep those skills alive as well.
And the only way we're going to do that is to engage with young
people and, and bring them along with us and get them interested
in taking this forward. Because otherwise, you know,
with the older generation, you know, if those skills die with
them, then we are still going to be in trouble with these breeds.
So they very much go hand in hand.
And what sort of communities and organisations do you work with
Tracy to make sure these breeds are used in different areas
throughout the country and for different projects?
Yeah. So at RBST we get involved with
the breed societies a lot. So we would we would be, you
know, in close connection with them.
We work a lot with universities because there's been quite a lot
of interest in recent years of universities carrying out
research. So we would definitely be
talking to academics and if papers come out we would be
engaging at that level as well. We teach lanter conservation
grazing courses. So we get a good percentage of
young people on those courses that are involved in
conservation and from an ecology background.
So they they very much got an ecology background but might not
have livestock background and they want to get involved in
conservation grazing and that very much includes our equines.
So on those courses, we find that's a really good way to
engage with, with the sort of wide audience and get people on
board with that. And then, you know, just
generally through our membership, because we're a
member membership organization then, you know, through our
newsletters and, and our quarterly art magazine, we would
always be, you know, including sort of equine stories in that
to try and get people interested in and connected.
You know, it's, it's, it's as much about connecting people
together, I think as as us sort of just putting out information.
There is something wonderfully magical about connecting with
the breed and their story, and thinking about our history isn't
there, and it's almost transporting and taking us back
in time. Definitely.
And you know, there are some, we have a series of farm parks
around the country as well. And, you know, some are
affiliated to us, some aren't, but there are lots of sort of
visitor attractions out there that people, they literally just
are interested. They don't know much about it.
But certainly recommend sort of looking up your local farm park
and seeing, you know, what breeds of equine they've got
there and see what they've got on.
Because I know some of them do some amazing events and they
still do the sort of demonstrations of the horses
working. And, you know, it's just a
really great way for people who don't know much about it to just
especially children to start engaging children and showing
them that the, you know, this is still happening.
And it's still, you know, there are people out there still
working these horses. And just share with us, Tracy,
some of the numbers of the horses that are at risk.
We're not talking about thousands of horses being left,
we're talking hundreds. Yeah.
So we, we produce a watch list every year and basically we get
numbers from Defra. And then we changed our
methodology a few years ago because we wanted to give a more
true picture. So we don't just look at females
and males, dams and sires, we look at something called
effective population size. So when we class things as being
at risk, it's not just literally the numbers, but we look at
their effective population and we look at their inbreeding
levels. So it's, it's more sort of
complicated than it used to be because rather than just saying,
oh, under 500 is at risk, if you've got a population that's
got high inbreeding, then that is at more risk than another
population that has similar, similar numbers, but lower
inbreeding rates. So from that point of view, we
also take into account things like number of breeders and the
geographical concentration of the breed.
So like you've said yourself, you live in Suffolk, you've got
Suffolk sort of surrounding you, but you go to other parts of the
country, you probably won't see a Suffolk horse.
So all those things are taken into account when we come up
with our watch list, but there's also numbers.
So anyone that's listening to this can go on to sort of the
Defra website and there's a lot of figures on there for people
to just look at themselves. But from 2020 to 2024, they do
what they call a sort of five year percentage change for the
breeds. So you can see overall, so for
example, Dale's Pony is up 5%. The Suffolk that we've been
talking about is actually up 4% over the 2020 to 24.
But then you've got other things I know you mentioned in your
e-mail to me about the Eros gay breed, which was mentioned in
the Times the other day. They're actually, their overall
pattern is down 10%, Exmoor ponies down 11%.
So it's, there's, there's quite a, there's quite a difference in
there as to what's up and what's down.
And that's why we do our watch list every year because we very
much can't take our eye off the ball and we very much have to be
aware year on year as to the trends of these breeds.
So that's basically sort of how what the work we're doing in the
background all the time. And when you get these trends,
Tracy, are you then going to pass that information on to try
and encourage certain organisations or communities or
areas of the UK to actually start increasing their breeding?
Do you sort of put out an announcement we need help with
this, this certain breed? So what we do is it always goes
out when the when the watch list comes out, there's always good,
we've got very good media coverage this year and and we do
most years. And then what we'll do is
particularly if we see a trend of and not a good trend not
going in a good way, we will of course contact the breed society
before we put the numbers out in into public domains.
So we will be talking to them in the background and just saying,
look, we've had a look at our figures this year.
This is what's happening with the watch list.
Your breed is going from at risk to priority or or off native to
at risk. And we'll have conversations
with them before it goes into the public domain and just say,
look, you know, what can we do to help?
What can we do for the coming year?
How can we work together on this?
And, you know, very much have those conversations before that
comes out. And talk to us about the
breeding Tracy, because of course it's all about getting
those numbers every year and folds on the ground, but that
must be an incredible challenge. How do you go about breeding and
breeding programmes? Successfully with a limited gene
pool. Yeah.
So obviously as you say that the smaller the gene pool, the more
issues you've got. And what has happened over time
with some of the breeds is there's been very popular
stallions. So people have tended to go for
the popular stallion and then you suddenly find and and it's a
bit of a lag time, you suddenly find that.
Oh, everybody's using that stallion.
That's not actually good. We've got a database, it's not
ours, but there is a database called Grassroots, which the
herd and flock books use. And so that's very much
monitoring numbers. We can do checks on that.
So we can do kinship and we can look at the relatedness of males
to females. So we can check whether matings
are sort of red, amber or green. So, you know, your red ones you
really want to be avoiding because they're closely related.
Your amber, you want to manage those matings.
So, you know, in certain circumstances it might be OK,
but you very much want to monitor it.
And then if you're in your green, then it's yeah,
brilliant. You know, that's that's a good
mating. So you know that go with that.
So there's also things around just general health of your, you
know, mares and you know, your downsides and falls.
So, you know, we do also do quite a lot of work and, and
publicizing general sort of health and welfare because if
you don't have a healthy animal, you're not going to breed well
from it. So it goes right back to the
sort of basics with that as well.
And then the next thing on from that is registering your stock.
So we've got a big, we've had this summer a big campaign again
about registering stock because unfortunately people, if they're
not registering their pedigree stock, we don't have clear
figures of actually the true picture of how many animals are
out there on the ground. Which means that when we're
doing background work with say Defra and government policy and
breed societies, if we don't have that true picture, it makes
it much harder for us to do our job and, and give the sort of
solid facts. And also if there are things
like disease outbreaks, we need the true picture.
And if your animals are registered, then you've got
evidence of those animals and their bloodlines, which means we
can help in, you know, in the worst case scenarios, we might
be able to support people and say, look, we've got all this
data, they've been registered, we can see their bloodlines.
This is a particularly rare bloodline that we really need to
conserve. So, yeah, registering stock is
another aspect that we are working a lot on.
And it's, it's not easy, but it's a case of, you know,
educating and talking about it. And when we go to shows and
events, just, you know, having conversations with people and
trying to get them to see that in actual fact, you know, to
keep that heritage and to keep that information and to keep it
up to date, then we do need people to be registering stock.
And we've lost horse breeds before that have become
officially extinct. Is there anything, Tracy, that's
in place that if the numbers are dwindling so much and decreasing
so much that there's something to stop these rare breeds that
are on the list actually becoming extinct?
Yeah. I mean, we, we always say that
we prefer animals in the field, but we do have our national gene
bank, which is basically our insurance policy.
So for horses, it's made, it's semen and storage.
But we so alongside our sort of work to keep these breeds alive
and to keep engaging with people and to make sure that they're
being utilized and and kept, our gene bank is there in order for
worst case scenario, we still have that genetic resource
stored for if we needed to, you know, work on bringing back a
breed in worst case scenario. So that's another big part of
our work is our gene bank and making sure that we have, you
know, healthy sort of storage of in our gene bank and that we
make sure that collections from stallions are sort of kept up to
date. And if we think there's a gap,
you know, and people can come to us as well and say, you know,
that they'd like their stallion semen to be stored in our gene
bank. So it works both ways.
We can go to people, people come to us.
But that's very much our insurance policy for worst case
scenarios. Wow, and can that storage last
for decades? Is there a limit to the samples
and how long they last? We do have samples from 60s,
seventies. The thing is you can, you can
test, you know, how viable that is at a later date, but you sort
of need, you have to decide then about South in terms of how many
straws we have saved. We, you know, there are
decisions to make about how many are for sale, how many are for
conservation. And then if you want to test the
viability, then obviously you are wasting though not wasting,
it's a wrong term, but you are having to use those, some of
those straws to test their viability.
So you know, that's why we very much have to manage that side of
things and make sure that we going forward don't just sort of
say, right, we've collected 25 from 25 stallions and therefore
that's done there. Going forward, we have to decide
at what point we then use some of the straws to test the
viability from the older semen that's in storage and then
whether we want to collect again from newer stallions going
forward. So it's very much sort of year
by year, we have to manage that as well.
Wow, so you can create a file where the sample has been in
storage for around 60 years. Potentially the viability does
tend to drop. So it's it's not an exact
science, but definitely it is there and it has been done.
But obviously the longer it is in storage, the viability does
decrease with it. So hence why we need to always
make sure we're sort of keeping up to date going forward as
well. Because of course, the actual
breeding itself is, is a tough one, isn't it?
Getting the mayor pregnant and keeping the pregnancy as well as
actually maintaining the pregnancy through to actually
getting the foal on the ground and seeing the foal thrive and
and survive. Actually work with breeders in
terms of helping them through that process, which I know can
be incredibly true matter even for the humans involved if
pregnancy after pregnancy is unviable or lost.
Yeah. So I mean, we wouldn't tend to
be, you know, we would always say in terms of sort of that
side of things is, you know, for people to have really good
relationships with their vets, especially if you have got a
particular breed of equine and it's quite specialist case.
And, you know, I, we always recommend people to have a
really good relationship with an, you know, an equine vet that
understands the breed and the sort of, you know, the
delicacies of, of trying to breed some of these, these more
rare horses and ponies. But in terms of, we do projects
and we do quite a lot of survey work.
So we've done some survey work last year and this year that
we're now putting together and we're going to be publicizing
results next year. So we would, we do quite a lot
of survey work of breeders to find out, to try and get a good
picture of their issues. So they can, you know, feedback
to us what their particular issues are, whether it is
getting the mayor in foal, whether it's finding the right
stallion, whether it's once the foal is on the ground, the
problems, health problems they might have with the foals.
So that very much because we're, you know, we're a small
organization with a quite a small team, it would be, you
know, very difficult for us to go and visit all the Breeders
by. But by doing these sort of
survey work, this survey work, we can gather lots of
information from lots of breeders and then we can see for
commonalities. So you know, if we get all this
information from a lot of stuff breeders and they're all coming
back to us and saying, look, got no problem getting the mare in
foal, but actually, you know, week 3 of the foals life, we're
all coming across a common problem.
Then we will very much then sort of put our resources into that
and look at that in more detail. And then we can actually do
further work where the Breeders need us to rather than us sort
of visiting everyone. So that's kind of how we go
about it is finding these common issues and therefore that's sort
of the best use of our resources and we can help with those
common issues. What currently Tracy is the most
rare horse breed in the UK. Well, the, you mentioned the air
risque that is, that is a very small population and there's
been a lot of work in recent years with universities because
it is quite a unique breed and, and very rare and very low
numbers. Then it's, it has had a lot of
interest amongst sort of geneticists and, and academics.
So I think that has helped that breed in terms of really
understanding where it's at and, and what the current situation
is of it. We've got a very passionate
trustee who's very involved with the Aris Gay breed and breeds
them himself. And so that's been really,
really, really helpful for us as an organization in helping that
breed. But that one is particularly
unique and particularly small population and that does bring
with it it's problems like you've said, in terms of small,
small population to be sort of breeding from.
So in terms of bringing in fresh genetics, it's makes it very
hard. So the breeding of those has to
be very carefully managed and very carefully watched.
What makes them so unique? You mentioned a few times how
particularly unique they are. Yeah, I think it's just because
they were because of where they're from and, and Scottish
islands with sort of their cattle and sheep breeds as well,
obviously developed. You know, we talk about sort of
county level breeds in in sort of England particularly.
But these islands were so unique in that, you know, back before
transport was as easy as it is now, they were literally in a
bubble and there was very little, you know, very little
merging of genetics. They were very much suited to
their very particular environment.
So they were, you know, bred and developed, you know, absolutely
in connection with that environment where they're from.
And so that makes them unique in that they have sort of narrow
genetics in terms of it. It was there's not much sort of
coming in from elsewhere in the world, whereas even our sort of
county wide breeds, it quite quickly sort of changed in that
there were, you know, animals and and genetics coming in from
all over the world. So it was some of those were
very quickly diluted, whereas these Scottish island breeds
that didn't really happen so much.
So it makes it, you know, a really good case study to see
how these breeds developed in, in a bubble really.
And I think that's why geneticists really like working
with them and it makes their sort of research really
interesting. So how thrilled were you as a
trust when Little Solly the Philly foal hit the headlines
weeks ago nationally, across the whole country?
Articles, coverage, TV, radio? What did that mean for you and
and for the breed? Yeah, I mean, it's it's super
lovely when, you know, the nationals pick up on that sort
of story because again, the sort of rare breed world can feel a
bit like a bubble in itself. And and you sort of work away in
this bubble of passionate people that are all very interested in
what they do. But it can be quite hard
sometimes to break out of that bubble and get, you know,
national interest and get people outside the rare Breed bubble to
be interested. So, you know, absolutely
fantastic for us and, you know, to see that in the national news
and for people to be interested in it and for people to take
take the time to just read, even if it is just a short article.
And just for awareness in terms of that particular breed.
I'm not sure it will, you know, necessarily sort of lead to sort
of loads more foals on the ground.
But in terms of just bringing awareness to, to the national
sort of press and, and the national public that this is
going on behind the scenes and these things are happening.
And it would be, you know, it would be lovely if people did
just take the time to sort of think twice about what, what is
happening with our native breeds.
And also then perhaps, you know, like I said earlier, go to one
of your local sort of farm parks and, and find out a bit more
about them would be, you know, just a step in the right
direction really. And then, you know, raising
awareness of RBST and whether people would like to get more
involved with us. It's interesting, isn't it,
because it's quite difficult to get equestrian stories in the
national press. It's it's usually in the sport
category or, you know, when the Olympics comes round and when
we've got any of our big equestrian competitions that
then the world starts speaking about it a bit more.
What was it about Solly that captured the imaginations of the
not only the national public actually clicking on the
article, but actually the broadcasters who chose to run
that article? Why do you think it was that
story? Yeah, it is.
It's not always easy to pinpoint as to why, because we we do get
quite good press coverage for various things.
And we do get sort of a lot of, we get a lot of articles in the
farming press and we do get letters sort of in, in sort of
the national newspapers. I think for that it, I mean,
they're gorgeous looking. I mean, you know, it, it does
come down, I think, to people do love really nice pictures and
and just very cute fall and you know, a lot of the time is it.
Because it's cute and just. Come down, Yeah.
It just comes down to people. And I think there's so much bad
news and so much, you know, at the moment in the press.
And I think, you know, the one, you know, particularly the
Times, I didn't realize it was going to be in there, to be
honest. And, you know, opening the Times
and just, you know, it was a big picture.
It wasn't, you know, tiny. And I just think people love a
good news story. I think that's it, you know,
cute picture, beautiful foal, good news story.
And I think people just, you know, really enjoyed it for
that. It was wonderful to see because
as you say, there's there are certain audiences that will pick
up on these stories, equestrian sports, farming, magazines and
articles and sort of establishments might publish
these kind of stories, as you say, letters.
But to get national headlines is something else, isn't it?
Large photos, front page spreads, front of the BBC News
page is that sort of coverage that you just can't buy and you
just can't orchestrate. And I love that the national
population cared as well, which is why I've got to ask you,
Tracy, why should we all care, whether we're equestrians or
not, about the horses we could potentially lose?
Yeah, I think it is very much as we've sort of touched on our,
it's, it's a big part of our heritage and our history.
And I think anyone who enjoys walking in the countryside or,
you know, just has any sort of connection at all to, you know,
going out on a Sunday into the countryside.
Our countryside and our agriculture were very much built
on the back of our horses and ponies and oxen and our, you
know, breeds of livestock. And, you know, it's difficult to
say for sure, but I don't think our countryside would be like it
is, you know, without that in our history.
And as we said, you know, years ago, our grandparents, great
grandparents would have probably all had horses in their lives
for one reason or another. And it's just that that's, you
know, gone by the wayside as generations have passed.
But so, you know, anyone that's interested, has any interest in
the countryside or rural life history of any sort and our
culture and where we've come from, I think, you know, delving
into looking at our native breeds, horses and ponies is a
really lovely way to connect back to that.
And showcasing what some of these breeds can do.
I mean, the sheer strength that we've mentioned of the Suffolk
Punch and the Shire. I was actually shocked to hear
of the the risk that the Shire is facing.
Can you talk us through that, Tracy?
Why are the shires affected? Because there's such a When you
think of Great Britain, you often think of the Shire horse,
don't you? I know, I certainly do.
Why are they so at risk? Yeah, I mean very much hand in
hand with the way agriculture has changed.
You know, they had a place, they had a job.
A lot of them helped in the war, particularly World War One.
A lot were lost there. And just over time, they're big
horses. Again, going back to the skills,
if you're not used to being around and dealing with an
animal that size, that's a whole new skill set.
And it's, it's something that, you know, I very much think the
young people that, you know, are going into keeping and breeding
shires have probably had some connection to them through
parents, grandparents, you know, historically and have been used
to them. So I think it's as much about
that they're big animals to feed, you know, they're big
animals to stable or, or, you know, have had it room for.
So even those sort of practical constraints can affect them.
So in terms of that, it's, you know, people have got to be
quite dedicated and, and passionate about them to want to
have them in their lives. I guess.
So, you know, in terms of the practicalities, it's, it's
people that really want to make sure that these this breed
survives. There have been, there's been
people that have taken to riding them and using them for new
areas of equine sport. So that's a gross area.
It's not. I'd say there's a bit of a split
between people that think that's OK and people that don't.
So that can cause issues. You know, there are people that
think, well, we need A use for these animals in order for
people to keep them. And then I some sort of more
traditional people aren't on board with that and, and sort of
don't think it's right because it has slightly changed the
focus of the breeding. So you probably want to breed a
slightly different animal for riding than you do for working
in the fields. So the traits have altered
slightly and I think that's where people are coming from in
terms of not being on totally on board with it.
So you do have to watch things like that with the breed.
There's also been they, there's for the Shire, there's been some
really popular stallions and people have used sort of popular
stallions a lot. So that leads to, you know, some
inbreeding. There's been quite a lot of
export of shires to other parts of the world because they are,
they're quite popular in the States for example.
So that sort of led to some of the animals going out of the UK.
But I think on the whole, it's about finding new ways of
utilising the breed and, you know, helping people that want
to get into it to connect with people who are very experienced
in keeping shires. And that way young people want
with an interest can go into keeping them with confidence.
I wouldn't want young people that are interested to just go
and buy a Shire and think that it's just, you know, any old
sort of horse. I think you do need, you know,
that sort of background and and experience and somebody to
perhaps mentor you or help you along the way with keeping
something like shires. And Suffolk punches, of course.
And the punch. Yeah.
And the punch too, because thinking of that, and that's
really interesting point of view is that all horses are a huge
commitment, a huge undertaking, a learning curve.
You have to have knowledge to take on a horse in whatever way
that might be as a, as a ridden partner, as a companion, as a,
as a pet simply or whether your horse will have a job when you
take it on. But of course with these larger
breeds there is a level of danger.
I've seen the Suffolk Punch in action and they can be very
bulshy and forthright. They have a lot of weight behind
them. They are hugely robust, aren't
they? And and any horse that knocks
you flying or walks through you is dangerous.
But you can imagine that on a greater scale with the Suffolk
Punch and the Shire. Yeah, definitely.
I think there isn't, there is a particular skill in at the end
of the day, you know, a mere human is never going to stop an
animal that size. So it's all about how you train
them, how you manage them and and these are sort of the tips
and you know that sort of people that have kept them before will
be able to pass on to newbies. Really.
I think it is very and it's about the breeding as well in
terms of temperament. You know, it's OK for experience
more experienced people if they want, you know, a Suffolk horse
that's slightly more bolshie. But if you, you know, if you
want, if you are a newbie and you want to get into that breed,
you know, I would definitely recommend looking at the sort of
breeding and temperament of an animal that you want to get.
And it might be that, you know, breeders sort of don't want to
breed from some animals that are particularly bad tempered or
bolshie because they are, you know, huge animals.
And so we expect our heavy horses to be well mannered and,
you know, to be lead. And you know, so very much comes
into the sort of training aspect of it as well from when they're
young. Now bear with us, Trace.
I'm going to go and pull the curtains because the light has
changed and I want to finish our interview without having a
bright light in my face. So hold the line for one second.
There we go, and complete darkness now with only false
light. Now we've got only the light
that we can actually guarantee. I love the sun.
I'm not moaning, I promise. Right, Let me settle down so I'm
not wriggling and fidgeting. There we go.
That's frustrating, but that will be better.
We don't want to end it with me squinting.
There we go. Right.
Hang on, let me have a look. Yeah.
And to you, Solly, that we've been talking about, Tracy, what
difference and impact will she make?
Obviously, she's brought a lot of attention, a lot of eyes to
the story through hitting the national headlines, which is
fantastic. But what impact will she have
genetically as one of actually only 400 Iriskay ponies left?
Yeah. I mean, I think the importance
is that every sort of live fall on the ground is, is a bonus for
us, for a breed which is in such small numbers.
So, you know, each live fall that gets to each life stage is
a massive bonus to a small population like that.
So therefore, you know, she might not change the entire sort
of trajectory of the breed, but every single time there's a, you
know, a live fall that is healthy and, you know, has the
possibility to be bred from in the future is, you know, a big
bonus. And everyone that's born does
make a big difference because that gradually increases the,
you know, population from which they can, which we can breathe
from. So it does make a difference.
And I suppose that's that that is the message, you know, to
anyone who is, who is the owner of, of any of our rare breeds is
the importance of if you can breed, then, you know, get the
right advice. Talk to you, breed society, talk
to us, look at, you know, levels of inbreeding and, you know,
carefully choose your sire. And then, you know, work, like I
said earlier, work closely with a good equine vet to make sure
that, you know, mare has a a healthy pregnancy and foal is,
you know, has there's a healthy birth and a lovely healthy foal
on the ground really would be sort of my advice.
And Tracy, what will be the catalyst to turn it around for
these rare breeds? We've talked about using them
for conservation, giving them other jobs, but I know that many
breeds come in and out of fashion, quote UN quote.
How do we actually not only save them from the brink, but bring
them back into safe numbers? What will do that do you think?
Well, yeah, I mean, you rightly say about conservation grazing
has been a big game changer for rec wines in the last few years,
and I think that is going to grow.
I think that will expand even further.
I think there are more people interested in sustainable
agriculture, and I think there are more and more people looking
at alternatives. I'm not for a minute suggesting
that every farm is about to go back to pulling a plow with, you
know, a Shire or Suffolk. But I think there are more and
more people interested in taking parts of their farm out of
intensive agriculture and looking at alternative ways to
to utilize with marginal land where they don't want to put a
tractor. There's more interest in in
heavy horses working the land for them.
And with that come people who want to start a business so
around that, so that we're seeing more and more businesses
coming on board that are, rather than having a farm, they're
offering conservation grazing to other organisations with all
sorts of species. And then there are other
businesses where people are offering this alternative method
of cultivating marginal land using heavy horses.
So I think as time progresses and agriculture changes, I think
we will see more and more people wanting to do these aspects as
stand alone businesses. And I'm hoping that that will
mean that there will be more interest in our native breeds
and use utilizing them that way. It might not be the catalyst
that you're talking about, but I think it will grow.
And I think it's like everything.
Once people start doing something and there's interest
in it, community builds around that.
And then that community spreads to different parts of the
country. And then I think it's more like
a slow growth over time, but it's making sure that that
growth is going in the right direction.
And of course it it ticks so many boxes, doesn't it?
Because not only is it helping the horses, but also the planet
and the landscape and the grazing and the planet and the
wildlife that share that landscape.
Absolutely. So, you know, I mentioned
logging earlier. If you're in an ancient woodland
and you need to say, extract some coppice or some timber, you
know, you can imagine the the impact it has, not just with
having machinery, you know, the, the impact on the ground, but
the noise, the disturbance. Whereas if you've got horses
working, it's just a completely different feeling in the wood.
You know, it's peaceful. It's not, there's not nearly the
disturbance to the wildlife. And it's just, I think for the
person working the horses, I, you know, people I've spoken to
that do that as a job, I'm quite jealous.
I think it's, you know, I think it's a fantastic way of life and
for people that are dedicated to it, you know, I think is
absolutely amazing. So it is, it's about that.
It's about that whole sustainability picture.
It's not, it's like I say, it's not gonna we're not about to
replace tractors, I don't think with heavy haul bosses again.
But I think if we support those that are passionate about these
breeds to do this type of work and it's good for rural industry
as well. If there are more and more
people wanting to set up stand alone businesses using these
breeds then you know that's good for for rural life as well.
And we've got an awful lot of making up to do with our planet,
haven't we, in conservation and doing good and trying to go back
to sort of traditional regenerative methods as well to
go more lightly on the land, which is what you're talking
about. And how lovely that horses can
play a part in that. And actually, there's that room
for growth if more and more people take on this way of life.
And we've had on the podcast before Hitchin Farm horses.
And I don't know if you've seen what they do, Tracy, if you
haven't seen their YouTube channel, you'd love it.
We had them on and they talked all about their logging and to
see their stallions and they have great big heavy horses.
For those who are listening and watching that haven't seen it,
do go back scroll and and have a look at the previous episode
that we did with Hitchin farm horses.
And wow, to see those stallions working the land, heaving those
logs up great hills through ditches, leaping often at times
through the trees and their agility and how they can weave
through the land instead of tractors getting stuck or you
know, churning up the mud. You know, all of that.
You can just imagine the sort of horror stories that must have
happened when trying to use a tractor in that scenario.
But how are the horses just are so despite being heavily built,
are so liked through through the land and on their on their
hooves. Just incredible.
So hopefully we see lots more of that at play.
And I wanted to have a look at some of the horses that we sadly
have lost over the years. And just thinking that I don't
even know Tracy, some of these names the Galloway pony from
Scotland, the excuse my pronunciation, but the Narragan
and set pacer from the US, the Norfolk Trotter, the old English
black, the Turkmen horse, the Fagana horse, the Harrington
hippos horse, the Irish hobby horse.
Wow, what name? The Tarpon, which is a Eurasian
wild horse, the Abaco Barb horse, the the Erichon horse,
the American zebra, the Neapolitan horse, the quagga,
some great names as well. And the Syrian wild ass as well.
And you just think most of these, in fact, all of these
I've never heard of before. And the only things that I know,
you know, know are the the place names and how sad that these
horses have completely disappeared and will never be
seen again. What difference will it make
Tracy if the horse is on the rare list now in the at risk
list now were to disappear in decades time?
I think it's about, we talk a lot in recent times about
biodiversity and I think when people think of biodiversity,
they think of our butterflies and our, you know, our botany
enough plants and our birds. I think that's everyone's
natural reaction. But people often forget that
biodiversity is our livestock. It's our livestock breeds.
And so we don't know what the future holds in terms of climate
change, in terms of agriculture, in other all aspects of our
life, really, we don't have a crystal ball.
So we don't know what we're going to need in the future.
And our livestock breeds, including our equines, are very
much a part of our biodiversity. So I think when people are
having conversations around biodiversity and naturally think
of wildlife, it's really useful if people can start thinking
about our livestock breeds as part of that as well and start
having the conversations around that.
Because like I say, we don't know what we're going to need.
We we don't know what genetics we're going to need in the
future. We don't know what we're going
to need help with. And so that's why it's going to
be really vitally important that over the next, I'd say sort of
30-40 years, we ensure that we don't lose any more of our
breeds, which is exactly sort of the role of RBST to to work
behind the scenes to make sure that doesn't happen.
Oh well, Tracy, thank you so much for coming on Curious
Equestrian. It's been so inspiring for those
listening who are thinking I can't own a shy horse, I can't
own a Suffolk Punch. I'm up to my ears and horses
already or I just don't have the skills.
What can we do? What can we?
You've mentioned your brilliant work at the Trust.
What can the average horse lover do to help make a great impact
to save some of these breeds? Yeah, I think it is about as I
said earlier, the breed societies.
If you've got a particular interest in a particular breed,
then check out the website of of the breed society to do with
that breed. You know, you might just want to
join them and get their sort of information and newsletter and
keep up to date with it can be as simple as that.
And you're supporting the breed society then who are doing the
work, you know, alongside us, just having conversations, you
know, like this today, you know, when you're chatting to sort of
your friends, you know, at the riding stables or, you know,
delivery yard or wherever, you know, just chat to people about
what they know about the native breeds and have they ever kept
them and what do they know about them and just start the
conversations. And from my point of view, I'm
doing a, I'm doing a project next year on, on conservation
grazing with equine. So I want to expand our
knowledge base on what people are doing on the ground, what
breeds they're using, how they're utilising them.
So if anyone in, you know, that's listing that is involved
with native breeds and conservation grazing, then you
know, we'd love to hear from them.
But just I think have the conversations.
It means that our breeds are being talked about.
It means if you go to a show or you know, an agricultural show
or a horse show, just have a look around the classes, just
see what breeds are there, what breeds are represented and you
know, go and ask some of the people that are keeping those
breeds and just have an interest in it.
You know, equine can be like a lot of things can be a bit of a
bubble and it's just good to get out of your bubble and just talk
to people that are doing something maybe slightly
different to you are. And I think that just raises
awareness across the board then. Tracy, thank you you for coming
on Curious. A question you're going to stick
around and answer some listener questions in our members zone.
So if you want to hear our Q&A, please join our special
membership here at Curious Equestrian.
But for now, Tracy, thanks ever so much for coming on the
podcast. Thank you so much for having me,
it's been a pleasure.