Jessica, welcome to Curious Equestrian.
Now talk us through what is the difference between modern
dressage and classical dressage? So there's quite a few
differences. Really.
The classical dressage is more of a way of training so that the
horse can be the best possible version of itself.
It sort of focuses on natural movement and things that they do
in the wild, but it's more developed form of that, whereas
modern dressage is a little bit of like a cookie cutter type
thing, so you have to fit the mould and do the movements
exactly how the judges want you to do them.
I think a connection is a big part for you of classical
dressage, yeah. Why do you think connection has
been lost along the way? I think again, because you have
to fit this mold and it's, you know, everyone is different and
everybody trains differently and feels emotions differently and
things like that. So to put people and horses into
one box just isn't, you know, it's not going to work long
term. So you lose that harmony along
the way of this is who they are and the connection they have and
you want to show that. And sometimes in modern dress
size, you can't do that. We mentioned connection, but
what other aspects do you think modern dressage has lost along
the way since hulking him back to classical dressage roots?
I think nowadays it looks very mechanical and again comes down
to harmony and connection and who those people and who those
horses really are. And sometimes I don't think it
showcases the beauty of what horses are supposed to be like
naturally, rather than all this boxy movement and things being
really rigid. Whereas classical dressage is
very this horse is nice for this reason.
Can we make it look better in a natural way rather than it being
mechanical? It's interesting, isn't it?
If you think of classical dressage as being like you say,
full of harmony and connection and being smooth and like a
dance, and then as you describe it, becoming more technical and
mechanical and rigid and being marked on what they see.
Why do you think that that connection was lost over the
generations through the years? Why do you think that wasn't
prioritized in the marking scheme?
I think it's more down to fashion, which is awful to say,
but I think some people if they see these movements like the PF
and the passage and the changes and they go, how can we make
this exceptional? And people see it and it just
evolves into something that isn't natural and it's just what
people like to see. And even non horsey people that
don't understand what they're watching, they'll look at it and
go, that looks amazing. Whereas it's not sometimes
functional in a way. So it's not a natural movement
sometimes. And yeah, it does look amazing
to the eye, but you know, it's not what horses weren't meant to
put her to be pfing in the field.
It's not. You know what I mean?
And just describe for us, Jessica, when you talk about
movements looking naturally, I'm guessing and assuming, but tell
me if I'm wrong, that you train without sort of harsh tacks and
without force. So can you just describe how you
train those particular movements without tack actually forcing
the horse to stand or position itself in a particular way?
Yeah. So it's more it's sort of about
not pushing them to make them do it.
You want the horse to want to do it itself, you know, whether
it's with treats or clickers or rewards of some description, the
horse is going, oh, actually this is fun and this is
something that I want to do rather than it being like a nine
to five work life. And the horses get into this
routine of, oh, I wake up, I have a breakfast and then I go
and work. And, you know, sometimes you
bring them out and they don't want to do it.
And you can't train a horse like that.
You know it needs to want to do it for you.
And you know, once it realizes it's fun, then it'll give you a
lot more than you just tapping it and making it do something.
And talk us through, you said that horses aren't sort of made
to PF in the field. So talk us through some of the
movements that make up classical dressage that perhaps differ to
modern dressage. What movements do you work on?
Yeah, so there's, well, dressage is based on lateral work and
getting judged for certain parts of lateral work.
It was all made many moons ago for the cavalry and bull
fighting, especially with the police, Tanos and the Spanish
horses, the PR ES, they were movements made to farm.
They've got to be nimble, they've got to move sideways and
like they're cans of pirouettes, they've got to spin round if the
bull decides to go the other way.
All those little things that were made for that back in the
day and then nowadays they've evolved into we're going to make
a three or four minute dressage test and judge you based on what
movements you make. So that's really interesting
that those movements had intention back in the day.
They were to move out the way of a bull, and they were to spin on
the spot and save space rather than actually, yeah, let's
choreograph a routine, essentially.
Yeah, nowadays we do it to music and you know, it's all very
amazing what these horses do, but back in the day it was
either in the war, it's life or death or bullfighted.
So how do you go about coaching and training classical dressage?
A lot of it is actually human based generally.
So I personally take on combinations of horse and rider
a lot of the time. I won't actually do a lot with
the horse at the beginning. A lot of it is getting over
people's mental blocks, you know, and they think that they
don't have a connection with the horses.
And you can do a lot of things just by standing in a field with
your horse and finding a connection and looking at ears
and mouths and little tiny things like that before you even
think about getting a calves and or a head collar on it.
And then, you know, you can work with the horse.
Tiny little aids. A lot of these horses are a lot
more sensitive than you think they are.
And they don't need smack and they don't need anything like
that. It's just a tiny touch and you
get a reaction. And then you can piece horse and
rider together and bring that harmony together.
And I love the words you're using, Harmony and connection.
But what kind of connection do you think classical dressage
promises horse and rider in comparison to modern dressage?
I think again, it's a tricky question because I can't, you
can't give a textbook answer on it.
It's whatever connection that person on that horse is going to
have and I can't. A lot of what I hear day-to-day
is you're not suitable for this horse or this horse isn't
suitable for you. And really it's just rooted down
to you don't know each other, you know, you don't know each
other's tells, and that connection can't be formed until
they try and work together. And, you know, if you think
they're not going to work together before you've even
tried, you know, we're really going to get anywhere in that
sense. So yeah, it's tricky to give a
textbook answer, but you don't know until you try, and you
can't do any of the things that you strive to do if there's no
connection. That has to come first.
It's ultimately a relationship like any other, isn't it?
Whether you're not humans, whether it's with your pets or
your dog or your horse, it's all relationship building.
And how do you do that without putting in the time and the
effort, which of course comes in outside of the training arena,
doesn't it? Yeah.
You get a lot of people as well that like they don't even spend
time with the horses. You know, I get a lot.
They'll have grooms that work for them and you know, they
don't even, they don't feed them, they don't groom them.
They literally get on and expect this horse to do everything for
them. When they've not done anything
with that horse, you know, sometimes they've not even put a
head collar on it. And it's like, how can you
expect, you know, you've got to put the time in and put the
connections in to make that work?
And how do you get to know the horse without talking to the
horse and, as you say, without tacking up the horse, feeding
the horse, getting to know its quirks and character and
personality? Because that's when it's going
to shine through as well in the down moments, isn't it?
When you're outside of the arena and either in the field or in
the yard or whatever it might be.
Yeah, that's another big thing about what classical dressage is
about. And you know, like you said,
then when you're going out hacking and things like that,
you know, with the principles of classical dressage, you've got
bad ways, you've got the rain back, and it's all little pieces
again of natural movement that is brought out in classical
dressage. Wow.
Can you talk us through a couple of other movements that has a
practical and intentional sort of purpose within within
classical dressage? Because that is exciting to
hear, isn't it? As the contrast, when you talk
about that choreographed movement that we see on TV at
these elite events that actually to hear in motion when you're
hacking, you can use the classical principles to actually
aid practical problems in the saddle.
Is there any other examples? There's lots of little things
that you come across, like passing cars for example.
You know you want to make sure you've got straight, you're
against the line and you don't get too close to the car.
You can move the hindquarters on the forehand separately.
A really big thing that's becoming really popular at the
moment is that working equitation.
This is quite classical dressage based, originated in Portugal,
and that is basically essentially a handy pony.
But for adults. You've got to go over a bridge
and you've got to do slalom poles.
And if there's a gate and you know these little things and it
reminds you of what you actually do real life hacking wise.
So even little things shoulder in, shoulders out, you know,
turning. There's like a little pan in
working deputation as well where you go around this tight little
chicken coop if you've got to go through a narrow ride away or
something with hedges on either side, things like that, really.
Yeah, you really do learn to ride outside the arena, don't
you? When you come safe, you know,
post and rail fences and you're out with bushes and low hanging
branches and gateways were always terrifying, like you
mentioned, having to open and shutter gate rivers and
crossings and and all that sort of thing.
All those awful trees that almost knock your knee and throw
you out. I remember the child right,
dreading those. It's those moments, isn't it?
And having the horsemanship and the skill and the moves to
actually negotiate them, that really makes a fantastic horse
and rider combination. Yeah, that's it for sure.
And why do you think actually just thinking about you, even
Jessica struggling to put into words that connection?
Because it's a feeling, isn't it essentially that connection that
we have and it's invisible to, well, we say it's invisible to
the eye, but I'm sure you can see a horse and rider sort of in
harmony and In Sync and in quiet communication with each other.
But it isn't essentially invisible.
And do you think because it's hard to define, therefore,
that's why it kind of gets left out of the marking process in
modern dressage, because actually a judge would have to
use maybe more than just a sort of technical booklet to mark it
and award it and sort of note it down?
I think people think of it in like, because there's an animal,
especially horses, like if you have, they say a dog is a man's
best friend, don't they? And that connection is seen and
it's understood and for some reason it gets lost within the
equine community. I find a lot and you know, it's
very much this animal needs to do something for me.
And it just seems like that dog owner connection, which is
exactly the same, you know, as a pet essentially is lost.
And, you know, hopefully through classical dressage and ethical
horsemanship, we can bring it back.
And what do you think it will take to save modern dressage?
Do you think there will be a collaboration between the
classical roots and modern dressage?
Or do you think it's too far gone and too far?
Out of rate no, I see it more and more every year.
It is 100% getting better, you know, especially in the really
big FBI world, it's really getting that and out they're
getting, they've even made these nose bands things that they're
measuring the width of the nose bands and how tight they are and
little things like that. People are getting scored more
evenly, especially if you watch the World Championships, the
Portuguese riders with the loose Tanos.
Every single year that I watch it, it just boils my blood
because I see the amazing movements and they are exactly
how like the PF and the passage is exactly how they're supposed
to be executed and they're getting scored half the scores
that the warm bloods again. And it's just, you know, when
really if you go back free time of how those movements were
supposed to be done. They are doing them down to a
tee. But nowadays it is getting
better and they are getting scored more evenly, which is
really nice to see. And hopefully it continues on
that trajectory. Do you think it is sort of open
conversation and education? What do you think is driving
that movement to change, do you think?
I think people are starting to see the more ethical side of it.
I see it more now with people less fortunate, you know, that
haven't got so much and they haven't got the money to be
going out getting these amazing trainers and professional
people. And they're just trying, you
know, and some of them are so good.
Some of the combinations I've seen that I haven't got money
and don't go out competing every week.
And I thank God if you went to a few shows you'd be full of red
rosettes, you know. But it's just that they don't
get the opportunities. But I think, you know, slowly
but surely it is becoming easier for people like that.
And we've got to talking about the sports.
I've got to ask your thoughts on this.
Charlotte Duchard, in this week allowed to return to the sport
and compete again after the whipping video came to light
last summer, saw her band for a year.
How damaging do you think that video was in terms of the
nation's trust in dressage and dressage coaches and riders that
we had such belief in, you know, years?
I find it a real big shame, really big shame because I think
she, and this is just my opinion, but she is, has been
one of the biggest advocates for dressage all over the world.
You know, she's one how countless times over and over
and over again. And that was one incident.
And unfortunately she's so like she should have known better.
And I think she knows that and I think she's traumatized by it.
But it's one incident that I'm sure, and you know, I'm not
naive enough to say that we've all been in that situation and
we've all got frustrated and it does happen, you know.
Did she deal with it the wrong way?
Yes, of course she did. And unfortunately it was videoed
and thrown all over the world. And I just think it's a big
shame and hopefully she's learnt from it and she can move forward
and carry on advocating for everyone in this in this
community. It is such a shame because as
you mentioned, you know, we saw her face and the leg grow as
that sort of positive almost role model, didn't we?
Very. Much so.
And then actually sort of hopes were dashed and feelings were
dashed as that video came to light.
And the repetitive sort of nature of that book was such a
shock to us all. You think that actually she
could come back from that video? Or do you think the trust will
always be shaken for many? I think we're always going to be
wary. I don't think it's a bad thing
because I think it has opened up a lot of people's eyes to what
does happen within the industry. You know, a lot of people are
seeing it now in the racing industry and horses being
mistreated that way. I think it is opening people's
eyes to that. We don't know what happens
behind closed doors and you never do.
All we see is what comes out in the ring and you've got to just
judge it on that. But what has come out about that
does show again the repetitiveness, the
mechanicalness of how the sport has become.
And it all comes down to we got judged on that and it's turned
into we have to run this so many times until the host does it
properly. And Jessica, how did it impact
you in terms of your calmer and more gentle and connection based
training and coaching? Did you see that as an
opportunity to show your audience on social media and
your clients that actually there is another way and it's very
separate to the sites that are being seen behind closed doors
in the professional sports that, you know, in the elite game?
Oh yeah, in a very selfish way. If anything, it helped me a lot
because I had a lot of people come to me after that,
especially in the last few weeks.
Now she's come back, I've had a real influx and clients of
people wanting it to do it the right way that have competed in
the past and found that they're just going around in circles and
that they hit a brick wall. And that is when problems start
and the mechanicalness comes in and they've just run it and run
it and they're not going anywhere.
And they realize, oh wait, actually I might need to learn
all my horses first before I try and do this.
And it helps so much down the line.
And just for contrast, for those who have probably inevitably, we
all saw that video with, you know, multiple strikes to the
horse, you use a whip in a very different way.
Jessica, can you explain how you use your whip but you know in an
ethical way in training? Yeah, so obviously she's got a
lunge whip in the video. I do lunge with lunge whips
generally nowhere near. Like I wouldn't even get close
on the lunge. Especially the lunge whip itself
makes the noise for you. Like you don't actually need to
connect it and if you do it would just be like a tap on the
shoulder to get your circle bigger and then otherwise you've
got like APF whip and short dressage whip.
So your PF whips a few meters longer than that.
It's like a family, you know, the end of your whip is
feathered for a reason and it's supposed to just tick all the
hairs on the horse so that they you get a reaction.
It's not actually made for, you know, hitting them with, so just
little tiny touches. And would you say it's almost
like an extension of your arm or your leg or guide rather than at
least something to make contact? Yeah, definitely.
And especially when, because I do quite a bit of backing as
well, and breaking in and dressage ripped like that can be
really handy for connecting groundwork with written work.
So like you can do all your actual work on the ground with
your long dressage whip touching the side, you know, just where
the where the leg would be essentially.
And then when you get the rider on board, you can use the whip
behind the legs to help. And then two and two become one.
You know, when they realize, oh, it's the same thing.
Yeah. In fact, it's really interesting
to hear, and for those who've seen the video and actually may
not know as much about classical dressage, to just hear the
difference and know that actually it doesn't need to be,
you know, a forceful no in any way, shape or form.
You shouldn't be scared. Of it at all that, you know,
from the beginning, one of the first things I do is wipe it all
over them and down their legs and you know, make sure
specifically that they're not scared of it because that
doesn't help anyone. You know if they're scared of it
and then you get on board and they're like, oh God, she's got
a stick. What we're going to do, you
straight away put in that fair in and the whole point is for
the horse to trust us not not to be scared of us because that
will later come out in your in your more advanced movements.
You know, if you in your PF, for example, if your back legs are
coming up really high and really fast and rigid, you've lost all
your harmony, all your balance, all everything that they want
and address our tests. And talking about other harsher
methods, we, you know, we had to, we had to talk about that,
you know, that video and, and that, that use of the whip
dressage has also been known with tension, pressure, force
and roll ker, also known as hyperflexion, the sort of
controversial training technique in dressage where a horse's neck
is excessively flexed, often with force.
Highly debated, isn't it, in the field.
I just wondered what you thought of.
That methods again, I think the over banding is really again
it's gone into fashion which is really, really unfortunate and
it's very normal nowadays to see a horse going round over bent
and it doesn't help anything really at all.
If you look back through the years of dressage in itself,
these horses have got a much higher head carriage, you know,
they're still using their core and their hand quarters, but
they're so much more comfortable and they just don't, you know,
these horses that are revent, they just don't look
comfortable. Obviously, I understand some
people get like problems with the horses being on the forehand
and a lot of the time the riders not really doing it.
And you know, sometimes the horse does overbend naturally on
its own accord and that's something that we have to then
adapt to and fix along the way. But it can be done there.
You know this also don't need to go around with the chins on the
chest. And how do you deal with bending
in the classical dressage field just.
Like one of the main foundations of the whole thing really.
But again, it's all bringing the nose to your toe.
It's you know, it's coming round and it's bending round your leg
and then straight away is the give afterwards.
So it's a very elasticated feel, you know, feeling like you've
got an elastic band in your hand.
So there's give and there's take all the time.
You know, it's not just you're going to come in and you're
going to stay here and we're going to go on.
It's, you know, it's very elasticated and it's the horse
wanting to do it and the willingness to do it.
And if you bring that horse's neck round and it goes, I can't
do this. We then look at, well, has it
got a back issue? Has it got a bit issue?
Has it got a sad issue? Not you're going to do it for
me. And that's that, you know, we're
looking for the horse because the horse can't speak to us, you
know, and it'll speak to us in little tiny, tiny ways.
But does it got his ears back as it grinding its teeth?
Is it, you know, so there's there's much easier ways to
listen to them than just forcing them to do it.
And some horses, of course, Actually naturally Carrie
beautifully, don't they, with a natural bend.
I know that Mommy, you know, when she's showing off in the
field, even on the lunge, she will do it voluntarily.
And it always makes her so happy.
You know, when I asked for transitions and she's got a
beautiful head carriage. And I think I'm not asking you
to do that. You want to perform and show off
on the lunge in that way. And actually you're giving me
that movement. And she'll do it when she's
being playful and showing off and wanting to pants about and
you think, wow, you know, that's the horse at its most natural.
And it's because. I always say to people as well,
especially when they're wanting to train the higher movements
like the passage especially, and they go in.
My horse is never going to do that.
It can't do that. And I say take it somewhere it
doesn't know and put it in the field and you'll see that it can
do that. It's like they're all capable of
doing it, you know, And sometimes the best passages you
see are the horse loose in the field.
And then you put all these contraptions on them and all of
a sudden it's not so easy, you know, when you've got to ask
yourself, well, what's the difference between this and me
training it? And the only difference is, you
know, they have a person there. And again, it comes back.
Then the person's the one that needs the help and the mental
capacity to go. Wait a minute, Am I influencing
something here that I shouldn't be?
Jessica, take us back to when you first fell in love with
classical dressage and how it found you in your life.
I didn't really look for it to be honest.
It just kind of came. I was very, I was quite young.
I was about 1415 and I went to a classical dressage yard for work
experience and nevertheless really.
And then I branched off on my own about a year ago and started
getting my own clients and going right.
Can I do this myself now? It was the beauty of it and
seeing those horses go from day one, you know, from literally
coming out the womb to then going on and being school
masters for people to learn on. And it's just amazing watching
it. And yeah, once you see it, you
can't really walk away from it. What was it do you think, that
captured your heart in that moment in work experience?
I've never seen it in action before.
What do you think sort of immersed you in that world?
I think it's the same as any non horse person watching, just
watching it on the telly and they're going, Oh my God, how
are they doing that? You know, how can that be
possible? And then you Start learning
little bit by little bit on how it is possible.
And it's infectious, you know, and it's, it's like an
addiction. You have to, you have to learn
it until you do. You know, people go their whole
lives trying to learn how to do this sort of thing.
And the more accessible we can make it for people, the better
it will be. Talking about making it
accessible, what? How do we even begin?
Because classical dressage does sound quite unnerving, doesn't
it? As a title, it sounds like you
need to know your stuff and you need to find new trends.
And you know, where do you begin on day one?
With just yourself, You know, the average beginner and your
horse by your side. What do you teach your beginner
that wants to start out on day one?
Again, it's really, really boring, but just just leading,
you know, just leading around the arena and you'd be surprised
how many clients I go to and they can't even leave the horse,
you know, and they walk. When you stop, the horse should
stop too. If you back up, the horse should
back up. You should be able to leave that
horse with no head collar on. And these people are getting
barged around and the horses are running into them and they're
running off and they really don't care where they are.
That is the beginning. Find that harmony with the horse
and find the friendship with them.
It's imagine walking down the street with a stranger.
It's a little bit like that and you've got to get to know them
and then start moving the horse's body, moving the hang
quarters, get your yields and little things like parking up.
Really easy tricks that you can teach that form a really nice
Bond Academy at the moment are doing a really good trick like
summer trick program where we teach the little kids how to
teach really basic tricks and to inform that connection with
their ponies and just little things like that.
And then we can go on to the more complicated stuff when you
get on the horse. But for most, it's that it's the
beginning that's right at the start.
Isn't it interesting that you have to teach people how to lead
their horse? Why do you think you see so many
people that actually don't know the basics of horsemanship,
essentially? I think it's overlooked and
people jump and they see this amazing horse going sideways and
pfing and they think that it's not important.
And it is so important, you know, And you've got to remember
the people that you see on TV and Nuno Oliviera and all these
people, the people that they've trained for years and years and
years and they've been there as a groom and worked God knows how
many hours a week. The groom industry in itself is
something else to talk about, but you know, they've they've
put the work in and they've learned how to do it right from
the start. And you can't expect somebody
that's never trained in it and never done it to just get on and
PF. You've got to do it from the
beginning and work the graph really.
And you can't drop that in and not extend Jessica, on the fact
that you said the groom industry is another whole kettle of fish.
What do you mean by that? That just the way grooms are
treated in themselves, really, you know, it is very overlooked
how hard screams work for us. And even the little things.
That's so, what's the word? Physical, you know?
And they're getting up every morning.
It's stupid o'clock and mocking out fifteen horses and getting
them all ready and running around like headless chicken.
It's so, so hard. And it really takes a toll on
people's mental health and the mental health industry, you
know, in the industry stuff is really coming out now about how
difficult it is. And again, then you get on the
telly and you watch the the riders and the grooms have, no,
you don't see the grooms on the TV.
And they're the ones that have got the horse ready and planted
it up and got up at 4:00 in the morning and done all these
things just for the rider to then get on and do the get all
the credit. That is a really interesting
point to think through. You know, you see the rider you,
you know, on TV when you're watching who the owner is.
Do you think that groom the groom should get credit in that
one? 100%, you know, the groom is the
one really who has the strongest connection with that horse.
The horse, the groom's the one that that horse is every
morning, every night. If the horse is hurt or
anything, you know, I've spent countless hours, like nights
spent in stables and, you know, getting up at stupid o'clock in
the morning for a fall that's being born.
There's countless hours of connection and friendship there
that is overlooked because that ride has done a good job riding
that test. And it's like, what about the
one that was there when it had an Abscess?
What about the one that was there?
What you know for all these little cuts and little bruises
and gave him stretches when they were sad and, you know, stupid
little things like that and nobody sees it.
And it is those little things. And coming back to you
mentioning that connection's a huge part of classical dressage
and how that's been lost. If connection were to come into
the marking system in the future of modern dressage, actually
that should involve the rider taking on more responsibility
for the whole. 100%, yeah. Again, it's become a bit of a
privilege to to be able to say, well, I've got five horses and
they're stabled here and they're completely looked after by other
people. I don't have to do anything.
I just turn up and ride it. And it's like, that is a
standard that people are aspiring to get to.
And I just don't, I don't get it.
You know, like you should, you should get your horse and spend
time with it. Is that not the whole reason you
wanted the horse in the first place?
Yeah. And to see that connection under
saddle, you need to be with your horse in those little moments
and doing the everyday work. It's interesting how the
position of rider comes just as someone who literally get mounts
up, gets on board in the saddle and off they go.
And actually the the duties aren't part of that.
And do you think actually to see that connection in the saddle,
that person would need to be the rider, the groom, the confidante
of that horse? Ideally so, yeah, I think it's,
you know, sometimes when you have that professional rider
situation, sometimes the rider gets on and the horse goes, oh,
this is the big guns I need to perform.
I find it a real shame because again, then it goes back to the
mechanical and the horse goes, you're my boss, I'm going to
work for you. And it doesn't get that time to
show that horse's personality. Every horse has a different
personality. Some are more highly strung,
some are softer when they have to fit that mold.
And when that rider gets on the go, I need to do whatever I'm
told here to be a good horse. Whereas they don't get the time
to show that connection and that harmony because they don't know
them. And circling back to you saying,
Jessica, that you think actually you can see the classical
dressage principles sort of coming through and sort of
bleeding into the modern day dressage and things are
improving in terms of natural movement.
You can see the marks coming. But mental health now is only
just changing in the industry. Where do you think and what do
you think needs big improvement in terms of modern dressage?
I think the ethical, no, there's a lot of silly roles in modern
dressage at the moment. You know that you have to have a
double rattle after such a level.
And I just think, you know, there's it would be so much
nicer. We're not allowed to do tests in
a bit less bridal. You know, you are, you know, if
it's not FBI or whatever, it might, whatever company it is,
but you can't do it in a bit less bridal.
You've got to have spurs at a certain level.
And it strips away all that ethicalness of let this horse
be. And why should I poke it in the
ribs if I don't need to? Why should I throw the double
the amount of metal in its mouth if I don't need to?
And you are forced to do that when you get to a certain level
and a lot of people don't want to.
So that definitely needs to change.
I think there are a lot of good things like after the test, they
show how emotional they are. You know, when they win or they
do a really good task. I think it's so good that you
see that tidy bit of connection after the task where they get
really happy and they're rubbing and they're smiling and some a
lot of them crying most of the time.
So that's really nice to see. And I think it is.
It is getting better. Well, that is good.
That is good news and good, good to hear considering the kind of
the social media storm, you know, around dressage at the
moment. And talking of children, you
mentioned the children and what you love is actually now kids
learning groundwork and trick training, which is something,
you know, when I was a kid, it was only ever if you loved
horses, you go and ride in a riding school.
There was never any, you know, horsemanship or groundwork
training. Do you think that's where it
should start for everyone in the groundwork?
And also, what do you think the impact will be for future
generations, considering that kids can now start doing
groundwork instead of just jumping on board and starting
under saddle? How do you think that will
impact the equestrian industry in the future?
I think that's one of the main reasons why dressage is evolving
in such a nice way now, because the younger generation have the
ability to start the right way. I hear stories that my mum tells
me all the time of riding school she used to go to and these
horses throwing her off and all these wild ponies she used to
ride back in the day. It was very much you get on and
you stay on till they throw you off.
Yeah, and if you fall off, it's your fault as well.
You get on, your fault. Now get back on and do it
differently. Yeah, exactly.
And, you know, they're taught to pull those ways, to go this way
and pull that way to go that way and kick to go forward.
And nowadays, there are places where kids can go and learn
classical dressage at the age of four or five.
You know, I think the youngest was six years old on a Grand
Prix of how to cancer. And he was doing like a really
slow cancer on the lunge. And she was just sat, like
giggling a little heart out. But it was done the right way,
you know, And that core memory will stick with that kid
forever. And then further down the line,
when she gets her own horses, she'll go.
I remember that Lucano that I rode years ago, and it's those
little tiny things that really make the difference.
And if you think what you're what you pick up on as a child
and the fact you go into a riding school and the instructor
is actually asking you to kick to boot a whole, you know, this
is a living, breathing animal that we're sat on.
These are tiny children being told to kick, to push on, to
move on to terminology is horse, you know, give a real man.
Yeah, yeah. When you think it's doing, you
actually dissect certainly what was a big part of my childhood
riding experience, various different riding schools.
You actually think, Oh my goodness, the shock factor of
that, that I was actually being told as a 7 year old to smack
and to boot and to kick is actually quite shocking.
So it thrills me to hear. And I'm sure there are many more
examples as well of, of all sorts of wonderful riding
schools now doing it better. And like you say, teaching these
little tiny children these beautiful principles that will
stay with them and impact the the field and the industry as we
move forwards and hopefully a lot of a more kind, kind and
gentle approach and kind and gentle adults perhaps in the
future. Yeah, I think the terminology
has sort of gone that way because these kids are a lot
smaller than us, you know, and they don't have the strength to
do it. And it's a lot easier.
Again, I've taught kids and adults the same, but a child
will do exactly what you tell them to do, whereas an adult
will overthink everything you tell them.
Use your right leg. The adult will go, well, if I
use my right leg, I've got to use my right hand and I've got
to do this and I've got to do this.
Where as a kid we'll just go bang with the right leg.
So they're a lot more, you know, straight away.
So if you say to a child now kick, kick, they're going to
kick and they kick quite hard, you know, or if you've got a
tiny little child on a very, very big pony, you know, that
horse isn't going to feel like the same as if I would get on
and kick it at that, you know? So the terminology definitely
needs to change in a way that the kids understand.
You know, a lot of kids don't even know what a bit is made out
of, you know, you say to a kid, but you know what this is And
they go no. And when you tell them it's
metal, they're horrified and they don't want to touch the
horse's mouth after that. So the kids have the ethicalness
already built in of I don't want to hurt this animal.
But again, because the bits are the normality, and pulling to go
left and pulling to go right is the normality, they lose that
ethicalness along the way. Yeah, and if you think how?
You know, when you start a riding school, certainly, again,
this is from, you know, my childhood, you're past a whip if
you've not got your own from, you know, the bucket in the
corner and you're told that's, you know, if, if the horse needs
an extra push, you're told to give it a smack.
And if you think you're sort of gearing up these children, tiny
children with whips to hit the horse with.
And again, it's all the way in which the whip is used, like you
mentioned, if it's a slight touch.
But if you're being told to smack the horse, you're
literally, you know, gearing up these children to use a whip in
that way that then they will grow up continuing potentially
to use the whip in that way. They're being told what to do.
Like you say, many children will obey that.
I remember vividly as a as a little child being given it and
thinking, why do I need a whip? And I actually refused to whip
the horse and would, but I was quite a sort of forthright, a
very strong minded, strong willed little child and I would
not use it. And I was told off for clicking
like a chicken, that if I clocked, the horse would respond
to my voice rather than me whipping.
So I would do that and the instructor would go around,
stop, you know, in that awful, you know, shouty voice that's
straining their vocals as they do like, yeah, the voice go.
That's what I'm. Doing yeah exactly the voice
does the work and and how wonderful actually to have a
different experience hopefully now that you can use your voice
as a child instead of just resorting to a smack behind the
leg again the whip even and it's.
Self is so modernized nowadays, like every single child has one
of those little show jumping whips with the stars on the end.
And it's so normalized in the industry as this is a piece of
kit that you have to have if you're going to get anywhere in
the industry. And if you don't have a stick,
that's just ridiculous. And in reality, we don't need
them half the time. And again, why would you need
this? Stick with this.
Flapper on it. That's not going to there's no
precision in that. There's no small aid in that.
All you're doing is making that horse dull and they become dull
to the leg and to the stick. And you know, the more you nag
them and the more you kick them, the less shot they get.
And then you've got to add even more kit and more aids into
there. And it's just, it's like a
dominoes over and over and you've got to talk to us.
About the horses you work with Jessica's, I know that you love
Portuguese and Spanish horses, so tell us in your mind what is
so special about those breeds they.
They are just so athletic and they're just brave.
They're really brave. You know, the Bluetano more than
the Spanish. I find the Spanish to be a
little bit less so. Most of them are absolutely
terrified water, which is hilarious.
Yeah, it's the. Spanish.
Really. Do not like water.
But they're just, they're very strange.
Could you know? Is it just something that's in
them or I don't know if it's just because they don't have a
lot of. Rain in Spain and it's a very
hot climate or what it is, but puddles are a really big
problem. I really don't generally like
things on the ground or water of any description, so I don't know
why, but there we are. Rosal Horses.
Are very much used to it. We've got biblical rain outside
the window right now. You put a Spanish sauce out in
the rain. And it will stand there and
shiver and act like it's, you know, it's going to die.
And really, it's just not the way, is it?
Oh, very precious. Yeah, they're very.
Precious. Yeah, they're very flamboyant,
you know, very flamboyant horses.
They're very beautiful, but they're just nimble and they're
so easy to train because they're so maneuverable.
You know, they can spin on the hind legs that God knows what
mile an hour, the tiny touch of the leg.
And like they're off and they're waiting for you at every
opportunity of what drames to do next kind of do this.
And especially like you'll see so many demos of horses that
have been trick trained with classical dressage, you know,
backgrounds and they're waiting and their ears are on them and
they'll even do things on the road accord just to go.
Is this what you want? And then the person's like, no,
that's not I'm just stood here talking, you know, when you're
Spanish walking around me in a circle.
Oh, so that real? Willingness and a real yeah of
working yeah come from in the breeds.
Do you think, I think it's been. Bred into them a lot, you know,
like you look at the like border collies for example, you know,
and even from being a puppy, they want to work sheep.
And my mum, she has a farm up in Wales and they breed their own
work dogs. And you see them growing up and
they're already looking at the sheep and they've barely even
left the house. You know they are border
collies. Are incredible.
We had our beautiful blue mole spy that we sadly lost a couple
of years ago, but he made the grand age of 16 1/2.
And as you mentioned, as a puppy, before we even had sheep.
He would round up the chickens, he would round up the Guinea
pigs, their outdoor pen, try and round us up.
And they try and round up the cars, don't they, in the traffic
as they walked along the road. So it's that instincts just
inside them. Yeah, I think it's just bred
the. More we breed them, the more
good horses we put together, the more this intuition is bred in.
And yeah, you see it right from the beginning.
Do you think there is a snobbery?
In the dressage industry still when you mentioned big fancy
warm bloods and you mentioned they often will place higher or
get better marks, is there a snobbery massive there is.
People, especially the top, top ones, you know, people with a
hell of a lot of money and they've bought their way in and
they just, it's this entitledness of I've got this
amazing horse that I spent £60,000 on and it has to win.
And if it doesn't win, there's something wrong with the, with
the way it's been judged. And how do you think we go?
About changing that, do you think it will take years and
decades to change? I think it will take years.
And years, I think again, going back to Charlotte, what she did
with Vallegro, you know, that horse was nothing.
It cost barely anything. It wasn't supposed to be a
dressage horse. And it went and it won as high
as it could win, you know, So that was that had never been
done before. So to to have somebody do that
with a horse that's not supposed to is amazing.
So it just shows that anybody can do it.
And I think after, after she won on him, a lot of people went,
oh, actually maybe we can do this again, another sort of.
Positive association, positive memory and you know, value that
we put on that pairing, didn't we?
So many years seeing them come up through the ranks and as you
say, you know, not a traditionally A dressage horse.
Is it that any horse you know, do you think any horse has the
potential to compete in dressage to high levels?
100% obviously you. Get the odd one.
The biggest problems are medical issues obviously, and you get a
lot of medical issues that come from training these high
movements over and over and over again and again.
If you lose the ethicalness of it and you put more strain and
you train in this robot robotic manner, do you get problems?
You know, you get suspensory problems from the horse being in
PF with its hand quarters under it so much.
You get problems with the check ligaments and all these little
things that go in horses so often because they're doing the
same movements over and over and over again.
It's like if I went to the gym and trained shoulders every
single day for a year, my shoulders would be ruined, you
know, because you're just over that horse.
Can't say to you, look, this is hurting.
It's up to you to pick those things up.
Yeah. Jessica, talk us through what we
can do with our horses, whatever breed it is, in terms of
starting today in classical dressage.
You mentioned taking it back to basics, but what can we think
about doing on our own without an instructor, without a trainer
that we can work on just together in the field or in the
arena if we have one? Yeah, the main.
Things are again your connection, your harmony, your
friendship. Think you know if this when this
horse looks at me, what is what is it thinking?
You know, every time you go up to that horse's stable, is it
coming up to you on a tree? Is it want to be your friend or
does it stand at the back of the stable and and not want to be
involved? You know little things when you
put the saddle on, are they happy?
Do they want the saddle on? You know, 9 times out of 10, you
walk up to a horse with a saddle on the ears, go flat back and
you you go this horse doesn't actually want to be tacked up
today, but you do it anyway. And it's just listen to them
and, you know, think, do they want to do this with me or am I
just pushing myself on them? And what do you?
Hope to see in the next few years, obviously big shifts over
the last year, particularly with social media and the way that
all sorts of different videos are coming to light as well.
Not just the Charlotte Dujard in video, but all sorts of other
professionals we've seen. What do you hope for the next
few years in terms of the professional dressage sphere,
the way that the equestrian industry is moving?
What changes would you like to see and what hopes and dreams do
you have for the classical dressage world?
I'd like to see it get. Less clicky.
I find it really clicky and you know, there's only so many
people that get into the industry professionally, make it
accessible, you know, get things for kids around the world and
grow the next generation and just allow people to do it
without having to spend loads of money.
Because especially the way the world's going at the moment and
none of us have got any money, you know, and I know it's not
just me saying that, a lot of people are saying that and it
makes it really difficult to have opportunities to do things.
So definitely that and bring the ethicalness back, you know, let
us ride bitless, let us ride bareback, let us, you know, they
were a Grand Prix test without spurs and a double bridle.
You know, let the beauty of it come through without all the
gear. I love it A.
Call to action from Jessica Kenyon Jess has been.
Brilliant. You're going to stick around
hopefully and answer a few listener questions in a moment
in our membership zone. So you'll have to join us to
come behind the scenes if you want to carry on watching our
interview. But for now, for those
listening, Jessica, who want to get in touch, get your help with
classical dressage and starting today, how can they do that?
So Facebook is the biggest. One Jessica Kenyon's classical
dressage. There's a group on page on
there, Instagrams the same and just send me a message and we
can get started. Amazing.
Thank you so much for coming on Curious Equestrian.