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All right, hey there. 
This is from constant and you're

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listening to Bitcoin for 
millennials. 

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In this episode, I'm joined by 
Niko Yuk. 

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He's a renowned finance 
journalist, podcaster and fierce

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advocate for Bitcoin and sound 
money principles. 

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With his popular Fix the Money 
newsletter and podcast and 

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German focused YouTube channel 
was VAS Bitcoin Brink. 

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He provides insightful analysis 
on the flaws of the current 

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money system and the 
revolutionary potential of 

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Bitcoin. 
His experiences with economic 

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crisis and understanding of 
economics have made him a 

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leading voice in the Bitcoin 
community, and I'm excited to 

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talk with him today. 
So welcome, Nico. 

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Brown, thank you for the kind 
introductions. 

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Good to see you. 
Yeah man, really really good to 

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see you. 
I'm excited to chat today. 

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We tried for a really long time,
I think like like 2-3 ish 

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months. 
So now, now we're here. 

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So. 
It's my, you know, it's my 

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strategy. 
I waited until your channel has 

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grown a little. 
Well, there we go. 

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It's it's going great. 
Yeah. 

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I wanted to dive into, you know,
obviously you are super into 

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Bitcoin now, but I just wanted 
to start with, you know, what 

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initially sparked your interest 
and how has your perspective 

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changed on Bitcoin over time? 
Sure. 

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So first of all, thank you for 
having me. 

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I've been like you said, I've 
been doing my German Bitcoin 

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podcast and YouTube channel now 
for 2 1/2 years. 

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It's going great. 
My main channel, I do have an 

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English Channel as well in order
to stay connected to, you know, 

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the broader audience outside of 
the extremely strong German 

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audience. 
So Bitcoin in Germany and 

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Austria, I'm from Austria is, is
a huge topic, Switzerland as 

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well. 
And and it has always been a 

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topic even before it existed, 
meaning that inflation on the 

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one hand and hard money on the 
other hand, has always been, 

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have always been a thing that 
especially Germans and Austrians

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feared after their experiences 
between the wars. 

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So we had hyperinflation, you 
know, almost everybody in 

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Bitcoin knows about the Weimar 
hyperinflation. 

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Austria had had a similar 
horrible inflationary period. 

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And today you can still, you 
know, talk to people who will, 

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who remember, at least have, 
have, you know, relatives that 

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told them about the story of, 
you know, people from Vienna 

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going out to the countryside 
buying, but, you know, taking 

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their, their, their, their 
jewelry, their gold coins, 

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whatever they had in order to 
get some potatoes, right. 

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So that's like the it's really 
ingrained in US. 

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And the second, the second thing
after the war is the opposite. 

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The, the Deutsche Mark and the 
shilling were super hard 

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currencies and we had the, the, 
the, the witch of Spunda, as we 

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call it. 
So it's the economic miracle of 

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the 50s and 60s and 70s where 
Germany just rose from the ashes

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basically economically. 
Also because they needed to show

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the eastern part of their own 
country how awesome capitalism 

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can be. 
You know, they forgot about that

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after the reunification. 
Since then it's we going 

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sideways or down, but it's a 
whole different story. 

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And I personally, I, I've been 
working as a journalist. 

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I, I lived in Argentina in 2008 
and this is where I got in touch

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with, you know, the destructive 
forces of inflation. 

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It wasn't that bad back then. 
It wasn't, you know, Argentina, 

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I think it got like 1/4 pesos 
for €1.00. 

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So that's compared to today's 
was it was totally stable. 

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But you know, when you order, if
when you order food, you would 

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get a menu every two weeks with,
you know, raise prices. 

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And that was interesting. 
And I thought if that ever 

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happened in Europe, you know, 
people would, would lose their 

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shit. 
Well, now it is happening. 

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People are not losing their 
shit, you know, as quickly as I 

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would expected it to be. 
But after the 2008 financial 

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crisis and then that the euro 
crisis, you know, things really 

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came undone in the, in the, in 
the Fiat money financial system.

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And, and I think Bitcoin was a 
reaction to that. 

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You know, I, I consider it, I 
consider Bitcoin an invention, 

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but absolute scarcity. 
I consider a discovery, you 

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know, that was necessary in 
order for Bitcoin to work. 

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I don't know, I, I, I, I would 
expect at some point, like with 

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the, the, you know, the 
technical possibilities and the 

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necessities for something like 
that. 

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I would expect, you know, the 
market to, to come up with 

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something like that, you know, 
even regardless of, of what 

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Satoshi did, but he did it or 
they or whoever he was or they 

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were. 
And back then when, when it 

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started, I, I didn't know about 
it. 

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I knew about it relatively 
recently, but because of my 

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experiences in Argentina, 
because of the experience of the

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of the financial crisis and then
the euro crisis in 2010, I was 

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already deep into the gold 
Austrian economics gold standard

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at first. 
And then, you know, the 

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so-called free gold rabbit hole 
when with regards to the, the 

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idea of using gold to 
recapitalize the financial 

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system, starting with Europe in 
order to, you know, take over 

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from the Americans. 
Long, long story. 

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So I didn't see Bitcoin. 
I did buy some Bitcoin in 13, 

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but sold it again. 
You know, I had my three, my, my

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three touch points. 
And I am, I'm, I'm, I'm not 

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ashamed to admit that I only got
it like really got it in 2020 as

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a journalist, I did work before 
off and on Bitcoin and then of 

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course, the whole crypto stuff. 
I was with a, with a big 

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Austrian newspaper. 
I was like the finance guy 

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there. 
So I, I would always cover 

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monetary policies. 
I would always cover gold and 

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then Bitcoin, but I didn't 
really get it. 

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I only got it when I, when I 
would least have expected it. 

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So when I already like basically
forgotten about it. 

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And when in, in 2020, when it 
went down to I think €3000, I 

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thought it was dead. 
You know, my head was complete 

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in a completely different place 
with my family and my job back 

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then. 
I wasn't a journalist or I 

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wasn't working for the newspaper
at that point. 

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I was working for a think tank 
for two years between 19 and 

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2022. 
And I didn't. 

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And then of course, afterwards, 
when it came back, I realized, 

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OK, shit, you know, you had your
chance to get in, you had your 

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chance to get this earlier, but 
you didn't. 

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So there's two options. 
Either you, you, you, you, you 

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forget your, your stupid little 
ego and you get in now and you, 

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you, you learn about it now or 
you, you'll be forced to do it 

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later. 
So that's what happened. 

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And then it, it was all very 
quick for me because I already 

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had all the, the, the puzzle 
pieces with me, right? 

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Like the Austrian economics, the
Fiat money system, the central 

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banking. 
I just didn't believe that 

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Bitcoin could be a thing. 
But once you understand some 

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things about the monetary system
and then you believe Bitcoin 

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could be a thing, that, that 
there's a consequence. 

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And the consequence for me As 
for many in the Bitcoin space, 

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is that I really wanted to, to, 
to work in that field. 

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And I saw a possibility to 
combine my, my love for media 

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with, with Bitcoin because I 
saw, you know, the success of 

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Bitcoin media, especially 
podcasting, Peter McCormick 

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being one who I always listened 
to in the in the English 

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speaking world. 
And I saw how quickly Bitcoin 

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was growing in the German 
speaking world. 

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And I saw the opportunity and I 
have to say I did seize it. 

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And now my, my podcast, I'm the 
only one who does like in studio

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podcasts, right? 
Because that's what I learned 

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from Peter. 
And also, you know, you probably

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know this because you do this 
mostly on, on, on Zoom, right? 

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It gets a little bit tiring. 
It's, it's, it's much nicer to 

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just sit down together. 
And yeah, we have something like

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300,000 downloads in a good 
month right now on the podcast 

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on the YouTube channel. 
So I'm very, very happy and 

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we're getting started because 
the great thing is that I 

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started in the bear market, so I
haven't had a bull market yet. 

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Hey there, I want to ask you for
a quick favor. 

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If you're enjoying our 
conversations on Bitcoin for 

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millennials, please consider 
hitting the subscribe button on 

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Subscribing helps me grow this 
channel, ensuring more great 

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content each week. 
I love that that you mentioned 

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that ego part, right? 
And and that you had multiple 

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touch points. 
I think that is a common theme 

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amongst people who who are into 
Bitcoin now. 

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Not that many people get it the 
first time they see it when, but

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especially with your background,
you would assume, and this is 

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also one of the questions I'll 
have after this, that that you 

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would get it right because 
you've been studying the problem

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and the reason of existence of 
Bitcoin longer than you, you 

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know about Bitcoin. 
But what if you, if you would 

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drill down on that ego part? 
What was the biggest thing that 

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made you not see it or be like 
this can't be it, or it's too 

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good to be true or however you 
you classified it. 

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So I had a chance to do the 
fireside chat with Michael 

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Saylor and Prague a couple of 
days ago. 

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And we did tape it and it's on 
my newsletter. 

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And I just actually watched it 
to do to do a German video on it

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for my German channel. 
And, and I think that he thought

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long and hard about this. 
And he came to the the 

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conclusion that, you know, many 
people are supposed to get it, 

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like bankers and politicians 
and, you know, economists, of 

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course they're supposed to get 
it. 

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But if you are not in the need 
for something like this, if you 

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don't really see a problem, then
you don't need a solution. 

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And I didn't see, I, I, I didn't
see that from my, from my 

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personal life. 
And I think it is, it has to be 

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personal first. 
Yes, maybe on an academic level,

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but you know, I mean, just like 
active economists, politicians 

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and bankers are going to be the 
last ones to see. 

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That's just what I'm trying to 
say here. 

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And then there is many groups 
who had some needs to get into 

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Bitcoin. 
You know, maybe they are 

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cypherpunks. 
Maybe they wanted to buy drugs 

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on or, or, or non drugs, you 
know, on, on the Silk Road. 

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But to buy something, you know, 
then there's of course those who

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got into it for speculative 
reasons and those who stayed for

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the store of value, which I 
think is the most, you know, 

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it's the biggest group and it's 
the group that is now the most 

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important group and will be for 
the next, for the foreseeable 

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future, maybe even 10 years or 
so. 

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I don't know. 
I, I think, I think I was like, 

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I was married to the gold story.
I was already a contrarian, so I

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was already a dissident. 
I was already against the 

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system. 
I already had a solution, but 

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for me it was gold. 
So I didn't really like, I 

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didn't want to give up my story 
and get into another story. 

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And especially within the the 
the framework of what we would 

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call mainstream media. 
Back then, it was way too early 

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to to start covering Bitcoin in 
the real sets. 

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Today would be possible, but 
today still there's very few 

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journalists in the mainstream 
media who get Bitcoin and they 

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don't get to do what I do now on
YouTube and on my podcast 

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covering the whole world from a 
big time perspective, right? 

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Because big time changes 
everything. 

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It changes your complete your 
total, your view on the world. 

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So that's also one of the 
reasons why I think Bitcoin 

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media is so important and 
Bitcoin media is so successful 

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is because the that that people,
you know, you can't, you can't 

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listen to the others that like 
the old stuff anymore because 

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they have a Fiat perspective. 
They see everything through the 

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prism of central banking or the 
euro or the dollar and the gold 

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stuff. 
Well, I mean, I still hold gold,

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but as a, as a systematic answer
to the problems, I don't really 

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see gold working anymore, or at 
least for now. 

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It could still be if you know, 
the the central banks decide to 

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bring it back into the system 
somehow, at least raise the 

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price. 
But but that's, I mean, I 

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thought about this a lot. 
I just, I just didn't get it. 

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I didn't see the I, I was in the
whole and also as a, as a, like 

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a financial journalist at a 
daily newspaper in 2016, 1718, 

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you know, you had to cover all 
the crypto shit all the time and

224
00:12:16,480 --> 00:12:18,200
there was a blockchain. 
Every day there was a new 

225
00:12:18,200 --> 00:12:19,960
blockchain. 
And then every day there's a new

226
00:12:19,960 --> 00:12:23,600
story. 
And, and you know, many people 

227
00:12:23,600 --> 00:12:25,720
are still in that mindset. 
So you don't have, only have to 

228
00:12:25,720 --> 00:12:28,920
get out of the Fiat mindset. 
First you get out, you get out 

229
00:12:28,920 --> 00:12:31,920
of the Fiat mindset, then you 
go, then you, you go into the 

230
00:12:31,920 --> 00:12:33,360
gold meds. 
Then you have to get out of the 

231
00:12:33,360 --> 00:12:35,840
gold mindset again. 
And then it goes into the crypto

232
00:12:35,840 --> 00:12:37,160
mindset. 
Then you have to get out of the 

233
00:12:37,160 --> 00:12:39,800
crypto mindset again. 
And then finally you arrive at 

234
00:12:39,800 --> 00:12:42,400
the Bitcoin mindset. 
And then, and then basically you

235
00:12:42,400 --> 00:12:46,400
have to go back to the, the, 
the, the, the gold, the Fiat and

236
00:12:46,400 --> 00:12:50,000
the crypto mindset and find like
little pieces that in, in this 

237
00:12:50,000 --> 00:12:54,080
world are actually still true. 
So it's an ongoing process. 

238
00:12:55,920 --> 00:12:58,560
I didn't get it because I didn't
really need it at that point. 

239
00:12:58,560 --> 00:13:02,920
And in 2020, I think I saw, I 
saw the the world break 

240
00:13:02,920 --> 00:13:05,920
basically and I needed to react.
Yeah, yeah. 

241
00:13:06,640 --> 00:13:11,680
Fascinating perspective. 
I am in a Telegram group with 

242
00:13:11,680 --> 00:13:16,520
Dutch financial journalists, 
bank directors, people from the 

243
00:13:16,520 --> 00:13:18,360
Dutch National Bank, 
politicians. 

244
00:13:18,840 --> 00:13:22,440
And it's, it's about Bitcoin. 
But most are lurking. 

245
00:13:22,440 --> 00:13:24,600
They read right. 
But there's financial 

246
00:13:24,600 --> 00:13:27,880
journalists in there from like 
the, the Dutch Financial Times. 

247
00:13:28,360 --> 00:13:32,480
And they do not understand that.
They still write about it as 

248
00:13:32,480 --> 00:13:34,760
like Tulip mania, Ponzi, blah, 
blah, blah. 

249
00:13:34,760 --> 00:13:39,760
And then I say in this group, 
right, like, if my perspective 

250
00:13:40,200 --> 00:13:44,240
on journalism, on being a 
journalist is, is to be like 

251
00:13:44,240 --> 00:13:48,400
intellectually curious into 
Infinity, basically, right? 

252
00:13:48,400 --> 00:13:53,480
You are reporting on what is 
happening or developing in the 

253
00:13:53,480 --> 00:13:57,600
world, you know, and I see how 
they write about Bitcoin. 

254
00:13:57,600 --> 00:14:02,800
It's so emotional and so 
opinionated and it just it, it 

255
00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:06,920
triggers me in a sense that my 
entire perception of being a 

256
00:14:06,920 --> 00:14:09,400
journalist is not, it's not 
that. 

257
00:14:09,400 --> 00:14:11,440
So it's, it's really interesting
to talk to you. 

258
00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:15,320
So when I go against that right,
I say like, why do you write 

259
00:14:15,320 --> 00:14:18,800
this? 
Like it's either you get it and 

260
00:14:19,920 --> 00:14:24,120
in a malicious way you're now 
arguing against it, which is 

261
00:14:24,120 --> 00:14:29,280
wrong anyway, or you know this 
is the biggest discovery in your

262
00:14:29,280 --> 00:14:33,560
professional field in your 
lifetime and you are not 

263
00:14:33,560 --> 00:14:37,160
spending time on it, which is 
also dishonest in a sense, 

264
00:14:37,160 --> 00:14:39,840
right? 
So in the same, the same is true

265
00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:42,400
for economists. 
And you know, Michael, in his 

266
00:14:42,400 --> 00:14:46,920
talk at Prague, he talked about 
his he was visiting Harvard 

267
00:14:46,920 --> 00:14:49,720
Business School, the one of the 
most prestigious business 

268
00:14:49,720 --> 00:14:52,680
schools in the world. 
And he said, and this was after 

269
00:14:52,960 --> 00:14:55,480
the playbook already worked, 
after they already made billions

270
00:14:55,480 --> 00:15:00,560
for, for, for micro strategy and
the shareholders, you know, and 

271
00:15:00,560 --> 00:15:04,000
all the students afterwards 
said, well, no, that's not the 

272
00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:06,200
conventional way. 
No, I wouldn't be doing it. 

273
00:15:06,200 --> 00:15:09,360
It's too risky, you know, I 
mean, do you know what what I 

274
00:15:09,360 --> 00:15:12,080
mean? 
It's like, even if you, even if 

275
00:15:12,080 --> 00:15:15,880
confronted with it, working, 
people will still dismiss it 

276
00:15:16,360 --> 00:15:20,080
because they do not like. 
And, and, and so the, the 

277
00:15:20,080 --> 00:15:23,960
strategy of showing them, 
basically showing them you're 

278
00:15:23,960 --> 00:15:25,400
wrong. 
You know, conventional wisdom is

279
00:15:25,400 --> 00:15:27,320
wrong. 
It's not going to work. 

280
00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:32,240
It's only, it's, it's, it's, 
it's only like the only thing is

281
00:15:32,240 --> 00:15:36,400
the pressure from the market and
from reality and, and media, 

282
00:15:36,400 --> 00:15:38,920
especially, especially what we 
call mainstream media. 

283
00:15:38,920 --> 00:15:42,560
What, what your, what, what our,
let's not call it, let's call it

284
00:15:42,560 --> 00:15:44,680
parents media, right? 
It's what our parents would 

285
00:15:44,680 --> 00:15:46,440
consider media. 
Media, right? 

286
00:15:47,480 --> 00:15:49,560
Good term. 
It's not mainstream main. 

287
00:15:49,720 --> 00:15:53,040
I think mainstream is wrong. 
The mainstream today has already

288
00:15:53,040 --> 00:15:55,320
shifted. 
But it's it's it's parents, old 

289
00:15:55,320 --> 00:15:56,960
media, legacy media, parents, 
media. 

290
00:15:58,680 --> 00:16:02,920
They are collapsing, they are 
collapsing and they and they see

291
00:16:03,480 --> 00:16:08,360
and and they say no way out and 
they are not interested in, in 

292
00:16:08,360 --> 00:16:11,640
fixes. 
Basically, it's not they're not 

293
00:16:11,640 --> 00:16:16,040
about like certain people are. 
Yes, certain people are, but 

294
00:16:16,040 --> 00:16:20,280
not, not the, the and and then 
you have the, the situation that

295
00:16:20,720 --> 00:16:23,160
you talked about journalists. 
Well, I think that many, you 

296
00:16:23,160 --> 00:16:26,200
know, people on YouTube, many 
people on, on, on sub stack 

297
00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:31,160
today are more closer to that 
role of journalism that you 

298
00:16:31,160 --> 00:16:34,880
described then in the, in the 
legacy media. 

299
00:16:35,920 --> 00:16:38,360
And, and, and this will only 
continue. 

300
00:16:38,480 --> 00:16:41,400
This will only continue. 
And, and the good people will 

301
00:16:41,400 --> 00:16:42,840
leave and will do their own 
thing. 

302
00:16:42,840 --> 00:16:48,360
Of course there will be media, 
you know, brands and the 

303
00:16:48,360 --> 00:16:51,280
newspapers of today might 
survive as brands in some kind 

304
00:16:51,280 --> 00:16:55,320
of form. 
But it's, it's if you look at 

305
00:16:55,320 --> 00:16:58,320
your own consumption, if you 
look at, at, at, at the numbers 

306
00:16:58,320 --> 00:17:01,240
from young people, what they 
consume when it comes to media, 

307
00:17:01,640 --> 00:17:04,359
we are in a, we're going into a 
totally different world. 

308
00:17:04,359 --> 00:17:08,520
We're going into a world where 
people do not get fed 

309
00:17:08,520 --> 00:17:10,480
information. 
They actually have to look for 

310
00:17:10,480 --> 00:17:14,240
information, vet the information
they have to, you know, build up

311
00:17:14,240 --> 00:17:16,119
trust with the people that they 
trust. 

312
00:17:16,560 --> 00:17:18,960
It's a completely different 
ballpark than to what, you know,

313
00:17:19,520 --> 00:17:22,200
my older colleagues are used to.
And I am 40. 

314
00:17:22,640 --> 00:17:26,280
So I am in the lucky position of
I'm actually 41. 

315
00:17:26,520 --> 00:17:29,360
I'm in the lucky position of 
your millennial. 

316
00:17:29,680 --> 00:17:32,640
I am officially like, I think I 
have the first millennial 

317
00:17:32,640 --> 00:17:33,760
generation. 
Yes, correct. 

318
00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:38,760
But but, and maybe that's why I 
still have some insight into 

319
00:17:38,800 --> 00:17:42,200
into the the new world and some 
insults side into the old world.

320
00:17:42,200 --> 00:17:44,720
So I really feel like somebody 
in between sometimes. 

321
00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:47,840
I know how to speak to people 
who are in the 60s and I also 

322
00:17:47,840 --> 00:17:50,240
know how to speak to people in 
the 20s. 

323
00:17:50,240 --> 00:17:53,800
The difference is, of course, or
any, everybody who thinks that 

324
00:17:53,800 --> 00:17:57,000
they're still young at 41 think 
that to know how to speak to see

325
00:17:57,080 --> 00:17:59,880
people in their 20s. 
But I do have some idea of, of 

326
00:17:59,880 --> 00:18:03,000
like, like the, the media 
consumption there, especially 

327
00:18:03,000 --> 00:18:06,520
because I, I know I, I'm in 
contact with Bitcoiners, right? 

328
00:18:06,880 --> 00:18:10,160
So the the oldest Bitcoin I ever
interviewed on my channel is 84 

329
00:18:10,160 --> 00:18:12,800
years old, right? 
The youngest is probably 20. 

330
00:18:14,720 --> 00:18:21,720
So so you know, people get 
Bitcoin at the price that they 

331
00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:24,520
deserve and at the moment that 
they need it basically. 

332
00:18:25,040 --> 00:18:31,360
And and what I like the 
conviction, as long as you are 

333
00:18:31,880 --> 00:18:33,520
like a people in your Telegram 
group, right? 

334
00:18:33,520 --> 00:18:37,800
As long as you are convicted of 
like convinced of your own 

335
00:18:39,720 --> 00:18:44,560
worldview, somebody who has such
conviction as some Bitcoiners 

336
00:18:44,560 --> 00:18:49,520
have is actually count 
counterproductive because then 

337
00:18:49,520 --> 00:18:53,760
you come over as a cult, right? 
But bitcoins of course, have 

338
00:18:54,280 --> 00:18:58,240
huge conviction. 
And we are only here today with 

339
00:18:58,240 --> 00:19:00,920
all the Bitcoin meetups, the 
Bitcoin conferences, the Bitcoin

340
00:19:00,920 --> 00:19:03,960
media, the Bitcoin this and the 
Bitcoin that because the 

341
00:19:03,960 --> 00:19:06,480
mainstream never really, you 
know, adopted us. 

342
00:19:06,680 --> 00:19:08,760
And I think it's great because 
we don't really need the 

343
00:19:08,760 --> 00:19:11,240
mainstream or the legacy media 
for it to do anything. 

344
00:19:11,240 --> 00:19:15,400
You know, we build our own stuff
and we even have with Noster and

345
00:19:15,400 --> 00:19:18,920
and Lightning Network, we even 
have infrastructure to monetize 

346
00:19:18,920 --> 00:19:22,320
that which is not, you know, 
baseball fans have their forums,

347
00:19:22,320 --> 00:19:24,960
but they don't have an 
infrastructure to to run it on. 

348
00:19:24,960 --> 00:19:27,840
We we even do that. 
So I think we're in a pretty 

349
00:19:27,840 --> 00:19:30,680
good position, yeah. 
Yeah, what you mentioned about 

350
00:19:30,680 --> 00:19:33,600
the cult I think is interesting.
Yesterday I talked to a guy who 

351
00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:38,160
who was 71. 
We we had a call to meet, but he

352
00:19:38,160 --> 00:19:40,640
sent me an e-mail because he 
listened to an episode and he 

353
00:19:40,640 --> 00:19:43,600
said I was in a cult for five 
years in the 80s. 

354
00:19:43,600 --> 00:19:46,280
And I want to tell you that 
Bitcoin is the anti thesis of a 

355
00:19:46,280 --> 00:19:50,560
cult because and I think you 
just used the word conviction. 

356
00:19:50,560 --> 00:19:55,280
What I find interesting is the 
conviction in the Bitcoin money 

357
00:19:55,280 --> 00:19:58,760
system comes from the 
understanding of what it is 

358
00:19:58,760 --> 00:20:03,240
right the self study, the self 
challenge and not the the the 

359
00:20:03,240 --> 00:20:07,840
self verification, and not by 
believing the words of a third 

360
00:20:07,840 --> 00:20:12,200
party or a third person, which 
is totally. 

361
00:20:12,880 --> 00:20:17,000
Opposed to the Fiat money world 
where the people who think they 

362
00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:20,640
have a valid opinion didn't come
up with that opinion themselves.

363
00:20:20,640 --> 00:20:24,680
They're parroting someone else 
or some institution, right. 

364
00:20:24,720 --> 00:20:29,040
And and I think that's also why 
they will get it last, which is 

365
00:20:29,280 --> 00:20:35,600
poetic in my in my view, right. 
Like it's the prime example of 

366
00:20:35,600 --> 00:20:40,880
hubris and, you know, close 
closed eyes, closed mind, 

367
00:20:40,920 --> 00:20:42,560
etcetera. 
And the people who actually 

368
00:20:42,560 --> 00:20:45,320
challenged themselves and try to
change their minds in the 

369
00:20:45,320 --> 00:20:48,800
paradigm they, you know, grew up
in or what was taught to them. 

370
00:20:48,800 --> 00:20:53,160
Like those are the people that 
will get rewarded in a sense, 

371
00:20:53,400 --> 00:20:55,880
you know, and. 
You know, even even when the 

372
00:20:55,920 --> 00:20:59,080
when the Berlin Wall came down, 
there were people in in the in 

373
00:20:59,080 --> 00:21:02,640
the political in, in Moscow and 
even in eastern Germany who 

374
00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:07,400
said, great, this is just a one 
step to the victory of worldwide

375
00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:10,200
communism. 
Yeah, no, it's true. 

376
00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:12,960
It's I mean. 1st. 
First of all, first of all, 

377
00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:17,760
we're not sure if they weren't 
right, maybe because because the

378
00:21:17,760 --> 00:21:20,680
communism is still, you know, a 
factor today. 

379
00:21:20,680 --> 00:21:28,440
But but like I did a talk in 
Prague about the lessons from 

380
00:21:28,440 --> 00:21:31,840
1989, because I see parallels 
between the people who were 

381
00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:35,440
fighting for freedom within the 
Soviet Union, especially in 

382
00:21:35,440 --> 00:21:39,120
Eastern Europe with, you know, 
regards to, to Moscow and, and 

383
00:21:39,120 --> 00:21:41,920
the people who, you know, fight 
for financial freedom in, in 

384
00:21:41,920 --> 00:21:45,760
today. 
And, and one of the lessons 

385
00:21:45,760 --> 00:21:51,440
would be that that, you know, a 
dysfunctional system, especially

386
00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:53,720
political, a dysfunctional 
political or dysfunctional 

387
00:21:53,720 --> 00:21:58,440
economic system will always, you
know, after a while, the people 

388
00:21:58,440 --> 00:22:01,680
at the top will not be the 
smartest people. 

389
00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:06,320
And I think it's very important 
to be not like not cynical about

390
00:22:06,320 --> 00:22:12,600
it, you know, and also I, and 
this is something I have to 

391
00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:14,960
learn as well. 
Jeff Booth talks about this a 

392
00:22:14,960 --> 00:22:16,600
lot. 
Michael Saylor talks about this 

393
00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:18,400
a lot. 
You know, it's, it's, it's, it's

394
00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:21,080
better to build new stuff than 
to criticize old stuff. 

395
00:22:21,080 --> 00:22:24,280
It's better to use your energy 
for something productive than 

396
00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:27,280
to, to fight something, right? 
And we are always like, Bitcoin 

397
00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:30,320
is often in fighting mode and we
have to bring down Fiat money 

398
00:22:30,320 --> 00:22:33,680
and we have to do we stop that 
CBDC this and that, you know, 

399
00:22:35,120 --> 00:22:39,000
hundreds of topics, which I, I 
agree with most of them. 

400
00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:41,760
It's just a question of is this 
a good use of your energy, 

401
00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:43,640
right? 
Or is it a good use to just 

402
00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:46,520
build something, you know, in a 
slight round about the way that 

403
00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:51,880
they cannot stop? 
And, and when you look at the 

404
00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:56,680
people who are in power today 
and have to like, like the older

405
00:22:56,680 --> 00:23:00,000
you get, and this is scary, the 
older you get. 

406
00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:03,560
And then you see like your, your
friends from school are 

407
00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:07,440
suddenly, you know, in the 
government, you know, but you 

408
00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:10,480
know that they're idiots. 
You know them, right? 

409
00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:14,960
You've, you've, you've seen them
eat, like eat sand at the beach 

410
00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:19,920
because so it's, it's, it's, and
I think that this is something 

411
00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:22,720
that we do have to realize is 
that the people in power, the 

412
00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:26,800
people in, in, in, in this is 
not the, the people in, in, in, 

413
00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:29,800
in French roles, especially 
economists. 

414
00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:36,440
They're just not very bright. 
I have to say this really 

415
00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:38,880
because it's shocking. 
But we have to realize that if 

416
00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:41,760
we realize that, then it gets 
way easier to understand what's 

417
00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:45,920
going on around us because 
because the system does not 

418
00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:51,640
select for, for. 
Yeah, exactly. 

419
00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:57,280
The system it's today. 
You know, it's there's, let's 

420
00:23:57,280 --> 00:23:59,240
just say there's many ways to 
get to the top, but it's 

421
00:23:59,240 --> 00:24:01,800
certainly not if you're the most
competent or the smartest 

422
00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:03,560
person. 
That's not how to do it. 

423
00:24:04,120 --> 00:24:07,000
I, I approach it like this when,
when I talk to people about 

424
00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:10,320
this, because if we say, you 
know, these people are not smart

425
00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:14,360
or stupid or intelligent, 
whatever, I try to keep away 

426
00:24:14,360 --> 00:24:16,600
from it a bit. 
I turn it around and say, like, 

427
00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:21,040
do you want to outsource your 
responsibilities over your life?

428
00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:25,880
You know, about what is the 
value of the economic reward you

429
00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:27,840
get for your work? 
You know, do you want that to be

430
00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:32,720
defined by a third party? 
And when you understand that a 

431
00:24:32,760 --> 00:24:35,600
third party is also just 
individuals, it's also just 

432
00:24:35,600 --> 00:24:39,760
other people who are trying to 
figure out their life and the 

433
00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:43,120
battle, their own ego and their 
own, you know, imperfections and

434
00:24:43,120 --> 00:24:44,960
all these things. 
Like, is that, is that what you 

435
00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:46,760
want to do? 
Or do you want to empower 

436
00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:48,440
yourself and think for yourself,
right? 

437
00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:54,280
Because you cannot, you cannot 
keep believing that these other 

438
00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:58,320
people, you know, they are more 
competent than you know. 

439
00:24:58,320 --> 00:25:02,480
They are also figuring it out as
they live their life right. 

440
00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:04,520
But that's that's that's why the
scam works. 

441
00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:06,880
That's why the scam works. 
That's why this, this this 

442
00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:11,280
appeal to authority works is 
because most people actually 

443
00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:13,920
don't want to take charge of 
their own life. 

444
00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:18,440
Most people do not want to be 
self governed and don't want to 

445
00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:21,840
take the responsibility. 
That's when you see, when you 

446
00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:25,080
see go on YouTube, right? 
You go on YouTube and you look 

447
00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:28,080
for, you know, panic. 
This that bad? 

448
00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:32,120
You know the world's coming to 
an end 600,000 views. 

449
00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:39,880
You know, here is what you can 
do right now to to to to to to 

450
00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:45,080
change your life for the better.
Brackets work involved 600 

451
00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:47,600
views. 
And I have to say it's not 

452
00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:50,480
entirely true. 
I do see some like positive, 

453
00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:54,720
like positive movement within 
the the media world where people

454
00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:58,640
who actually do want to help you
live a better life and take more

455
00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:01,520
charge to get more exposure 
today. 

456
00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:05,240
That is actually true. 
But in the end, still like this,

457
00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:06,960
this is how it works. 
You know, it's like there's 

458
00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:09,600
there's there's two people in 
the world, kinds of people in 

459
00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:12,160
the world. 
The one complaints and and 

460
00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:14,400
analyzes everything and 
complaints about how the world 

461
00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:16,800
is. 
And he ends with, after an hour 

462
00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:20,320
of discussion, he ends with, and
This is why I decided to move 

463
00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:24,120
here and do this and do that and
me personally and then the like.

464
00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:27,560
But 99 other people will say, 
and This is why we need a new 

465
00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:31,040
political system and we need to 
bring the old one down and we 

466
00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:36,320
need to, you know, fight. 
And, and I think it's more, it's

467
00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:38,600
more healthy to think about the 
things that you can actually 

468
00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:41,280
change. 
And I think that Bitcoin, that 

469
00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:45,200
the Internet and information 
technology in general and 

470
00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:49,480
Bitcoin specifically give us an 
extremely powerful tool that 

471
00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:52,320
nobody has ever had before, 
right? 

472
00:26:52,360 --> 00:26:56,960
I mean, this is also when 
Bitcoin puts the individual on 

473
00:26:56,960 --> 00:26:58,720
the level that it has never been
on. 

474
00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:01,760
It's you are now your own, your 
own bank. 

475
00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:04,240
You are now your own hedge fund.
You are now your own sovereign 

476
00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:05,920
state. 
You know your own. 

477
00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:08,680
Whatever you want it to be, 
really. 

478
00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:11,680
That's why it's so hard to 
understand. 

479
00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:16,400
Also for people, I'd say like, 
it's that what you say sounds 

480
00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:18,440
too good to be true. 
You know, sometimes I hear 

481
00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:21,640
myself also talk and I think 
like, oh, sounds like sounds 

482
00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:23,880
like something a snake oil 
salesman would say, right? 

483
00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:25,440
Because it sounds too good to be
true. 

484
00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:28,560
But that is because, you know, 
we talked about the paradigm 

485
00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:30,840
shift like that. 
That is because it's so 

486
00:27:31,360 --> 00:27:36,320
contradictory to the entire 
frame of life that that that 

487
00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:38,840
people know. 
Of course, it sounds too, too 

488
00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:42,000
good to be true. 
You know that you can be that 

489
00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:45,360
sovereign and be your own bank 
and not dependent on any other 

490
00:27:45,360 --> 00:27:46,720
third party and all these 
things. 

491
00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:50,720
It's also, but for many people, 
like I said, it sounds scary as 

492
00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:52,880
well, Yes. 
So there's a, there's a 

493
00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:55,200
difference because if you, if 
you were brought up in a world 

494
00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:58,600
where this is impossible, then 
there's only very few people who

495
00:27:58,600 --> 00:28:02,120
would embrace it, those who 
actually need to and those who 

496
00:28:02,120 --> 00:28:04,840
want to for their own reasons. 
And most in the western world 

497
00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:09,800
are those who want to, right? 
So, so, so if you, if you live 

498
00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:13,120
in Nigeria or Turkey or South 
America, more those who need to 

499
00:28:13,120 --> 00:28:15,400
are a lot, a lot bigger 
populace. 

500
00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:19,800
And, and does it sound too good 
to be true? 

501
00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:21,760
Yes. 
That's why I took me 7 years. 

502
00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:24,640
That's why I didn't buy 200 or 
2000, right? 

503
00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:27,360
It is it also sounds too good to
be true from my perspective. 

504
00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:30,920
But when you look around, I 
mean, we, we are living in a 

505
00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:34,480
digital world with the ruins of 
the analogue world all around 

506
00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:38,040
us, right? 
We're not talking on Riverside. 

507
00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:40,800
Two years ago we wouldn't have 
been doing this. 

508
00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:43,920
Today you run your whole, your 
whole YouTube channel on that. 

509
00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:47,840
And YouTube channel is basically
like a like a like ATV station. 

510
00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:52,240
20 years ago, ATV station would 
have cost you €2 billion and you

511
00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:55,480
would have, you know, have to 
bribe a couple of politicians to

512
00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:59,120
get it. 
And, and, and today, I mean, if 

513
00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:02,280
you, if you talk to somebody 
from even the year 2000, right, 

514
00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:05,960
I'm talking about this, talking 
about describe the iPhone to 

515
00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:08,040
him, right? 
He would have said it's too good

516
00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:12,720
to be true, right? 
And this is only 2024 years ago.

517
00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:18,600
So, so I think that the lessons 
from the digital project and the

518
00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:22,280
digital revolution that we've 
seen in the last couple of years

519
00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:26,080
is that, you know, many things 
that are that sound too good to 

520
00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:29,880
be true come true. 
And it makes total sense for me 

521
00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:34,600
that in in when you think about 
it, of course there needs to be 

522
00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:36,920
a monetary system in the digital
world. 

523
00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:41,480
And, and only Bitcoin gives you 
the perspective only that only 

524
00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:45,960
those who understand proof of 
work understand that Bitcoin is 

525
00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:50,920
the only option for this really,
because, you know, what are we 

526
00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:52,240
going to use? 
Are we going to, are we going to

527
00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:56,240
use the 600 different Fiat 
currencies or 20,000 different 

528
00:29:56,240 --> 00:29:58,840
cryptocurrencies? 
And yes, of course in the real 

529
00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:03,240
world, the dollar, be it as a 
digital dollar or be it on 

530
00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:09,000
stable coin crypto rails, the 
dollar will play an important 

531
00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:12,160
role going forward. 
It's not like Bitcoin is going 

532
00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:16,560
to just, you know, disappear all
that, even the euro or whatever.

533
00:30:16,840 --> 00:30:22,680
But but, but it, you know, 
you're, you're from the 

534
00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:28,000
Netherlands, I'm from Austria. 
We use, you use English because 

535
00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:30,600
English is decentralized. 
Nobody owns it, nobody controls 

536
00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:32,440
it. 
I can talk, I can use my accent.

537
00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:35,680
You can use your accent. 
Bitcoin is the English of the 

538
00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:39,280
financial markets. 
The dollar is, you know, I don't

539
00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:43,480
know, a slightly more successful
version of Esperanto, I guess. 

540
00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:47,480
Some dialect, yeah. 
Some dialect I mean, I'm, I'm 

541
00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:48,920
not hating on the dollar is what
I'm saying. 

542
00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:52,800
You know, if if you need the if 
you need tether in in in 

543
00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:55,560
Argentina and Turkey right now. 
I'm happy that you that you have

544
00:30:55,560 --> 00:30:58,120
access to it. 
Yeah, so in. 

545
00:30:58,120 --> 00:31:02,720
In your view is is money, is 
money a social construct? 

546
00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:06,800
And if so, what are the 
implications of that? 

547
00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:10,960
Because like, my thought behind 
that is eventually, you know, 

548
00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:15,840
Fiat money does not work for 
everyone because it's not an 

549
00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:19,560
organically adopted money, 
right? 

550
00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:22,800
Even even my country said no to 
the euro in a sense. 

551
00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:27,320
So how, what do you think about 
when, when, when people look at 

552
00:31:27,320 --> 00:31:30,280
history, they talk a lot about 
organic money, you know, with 

553
00:31:30,280 --> 00:31:32,400
the beads and the sand, you 
know, and it has all their 

554
00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:35,760
flaws. 
But a lot of other money is not,

555
00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:40,080
it's not organic, not like the 
example of, you know, imprisoned

556
00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:43,000
cigarettes or money because 
it's, you know, where I'm 

557
00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:45,480
getting it. 
Yeah, So have you heard about 

558
00:31:45,760 --> 00:31:49,840
Mises regression theorem? 
So Ludwig von Mises is one of 

559
00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:53,960
the so he's one of the big guys 
in Austrian economics, right. 

560
00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:56,040
You can reading him today is 
amazing. 

561
00:31:56,280 --> 00:31:58,840
He is a bit dogmatic about the 
gold standard, but you know, he 

562
00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:02,280
he was a real brilliant writer 
and you know, it's easy to read 

563
00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:03,480
him. 
It's like he wrote it yesterday.

564
00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:06,120
And also the topics that he 
talks about, it's like he wrote 

565
00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:08,360
yesterday. 
And one of his contributions to 

566
00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:09,840
economics is the regression 
theory. 

567
00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:13,800
And it basically states that in 
order to be something for to be 

568
00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:18,280
used as money today, it needed 
some sort of value yesterday. 

569
00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:21,720
So we need some reference that 
we can use. 

570
00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:26,440
So basically, even if you, if 
you use seashells, you know, 

571
00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:30,520
somebody needs to toward those 
seashells and give them some 

572
00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:33,160
sort of value before and then 
you start exchanging them maybe 

573
00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:35,640
as As for trade and then, you 
know, the practice kicks off. 

574
00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:39,640
So what I'm saying is that even 
our money today that we use it 

575
00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:42,040
can all be explained by 
regression theorem. 

576
00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:45,720
With the euro you go back to to 
shilling, you go back to 

577
00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:49,280
Deutschmark, you go back to what
did you have in, in, in. 

578
00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:53,080
Gilder's Florin. 
Right you Yeah, the florin, 

579
00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:55,800
right. 
The florin was the florin even 

580
00:32:55,800 --> 00:33:00,120
as a word, it goes back to the, 
the, the gold coin in for the 

581
00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:06,560
1516 hundreds, which actually is
one of the best examples for 

582
00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:09,920
Bitcoin in the, in, in past. 
And that's why it's the first 

583
00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:12,280
chapter of Nick Bhatia's great 
book layer Money. 

584
00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:20,160
So, so I, I actually, So what 
I'm saying is that I, I do 

585
00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:23,280
disagree that, that the money we
use today or the currency we use

586
00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:27,480
today is not organic. 
The market in the end is 

587
00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:31,960
stronger than than any any law. 
But the laws, of course help, 

588
00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:35,720
right. 
So there is some organic Ness in

589
00:33:35,720 --> 00:33:37,720
our money today. 
It goes back to the gold 

590
00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:40,600
standard. 
The names go back to, to, to 

591
00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:42,720
times when, you know, it was 
tied to gold. 

592
00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:46,960
The pound sterling was a pound 
of silver at some point it was 

593
00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:50,200
tied to silver. 
So this, this stuff, you know, 

594
00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:53,720
the fluorine is in, in, in, in, 
in Hungary still. 

595
00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:58,480
The name still goes back to, to 
that, but I, I do also get what 

596
00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:02,880
you're saying is that, that, you
know, we haven't seen the market

597
00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:06,120
forcing the market monetizing 
these, these monies. 

598
00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:09,400
And this is true. 
So I think it's important to, to

599
00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:13,760
differentiate between it took me
a while to understand this, but 

600
00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:18,120
it's also something, you know, 
I, I talk to, I talk about with 

601
00:34:18,120 --> 00:34:21,760
my guests now and something that
I talk to to Michael about. 

602
00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:25,040
It's like there's, there's 
money, there's currency and 

603
00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:28,800
there's capital. 
So currency and so money is the 

604
00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:30,400
the the name that's above them 
all. 

605
00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:32,440
So money can be either currency 
or capital. 

606
00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:36,960
Money can be used for as a unit 
of account, unit of transaction 

607
00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:40,679
or store value. 
Yes, but but unit of account is 

608
00:34:40,679 --> 00:34:42,600
not doing anything. 
Unit of account is something 

609
00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:45,280
that's only happening in your 
head or an extra sheet. 

610
00:34:46,199 --> 00:34:49,080
If using it as a store value is 
doing something, basically you 

611
00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:52,280
pull it somewhere, you put it on
a on a balance sheet or you put 

612
00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:54,679
it in the saving save deposit 
box, whatever. 

613
00:34:54,920 --> 00:34:57,320
And using it as a currency is 
also also doing something. 

614
00:34:57,320 --> 00:35:00,400
You're using it at a high 
frequency, you're exchanging it.

615
00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:05,840
The Fiat currencies of today are
mostly designed to be payment 

616
00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:07,760
rails, right? 
So they're mostly designed to be

617
00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:11,000
for, for unit of transactions. 
They're very, very bad store 

618
00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:13,840
values. 
So the capital that we use today

619
00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:16,360
for, for, for our form of 
capitalism. 

620
00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:23,280
And I'm, I'm not trying to, you 
know, make too much 

621
00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:27,080
advertisement for my talk with 
Michael, but I also don't want 

622
00:35:27,080 --> 00:35:29,160
to use his argument. 
So I'm going to say this is from

623
00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:30,920
him. 
But the capital that we use for 

624
00:35:30,920 --> 00:35:33,880
our form of capitalism today is 
just not very good. 

625
00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:37,120
It's defective because it's not 
a good store value. 

626
00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:39,680
Government bonds are not a great
store value. 

627
00:35:39,680 --> 00:35:41,760
Neither is real estate or or 
stocks. 

628
00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:45,520
They are a better store value 
than, than other stuff, right? 

629
00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:48,560
So American government bonds and
American currency is a better 

630
00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:52,080
store value than Turkish 
currency or, or, or Argentinian 

631
00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:55,280
currency. 
And real estate is a better 

632
00:35:55,280 --> 00:35:58,800
store value than than any 
currency and, and and so on and 

633
00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:01,720
so forth. 
But they all have their their 

634
00:36:01,720 --> 00:36:03,920
problems. 
So Bitcoin is the first store 

635
00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:06,760
value that is designed to be a 
store value. 

636
00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:12,400
And I think this is extremely, 
extremely important because 

637
00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:13,840
that's the basis for everything 
else. 

638
00:36:13,840 --> 00:36:17,280
That's the basis of capitalism. 
And that's why that's also what 

639
00:36:17,280 --> 00:36:20,000
Nick argues in his brilliant 
book Layered Money, because he 

640
00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:22,120
said first you fix the base 
layer, right? 

641
00:36:22,480 --> 00:36:25,000
And then everything else gets 
built on top of it. 

642
00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:27,520
Yeah. 
So it's store of value before 

643
00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:30,720
medium of exchange. 
I have to be able to store it 

644
00:36:30,720 --> 00:36:35,960
into the future before I can use
it for whatever I want to spend 

645
00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:37,320
it on. 
But I, I I think this is a 

646
00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:40,560
really good point, right? 
This is, I think this ties in to

647
00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:44,720
how I see Bitcoin as in I see 
Bitcoin not as an investment 

648
00:36:44,840 --> 00:36:48,160
asset, but as a savings asset. 
And I think, you know, that is 

649
00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:50,440
in line with with store value in
a sense. 

650
00:36:50,440 --> 00:36:55,000
If I get EUR or dollars for the,
for the value that I give. 

651
00:36:55,000 --> 00:37:00,320
And you know, whatever exchange 
I am involved in, I can use part

652
00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:05,560
of that rewards dollars or euros
to, you know, pay for my food. 

653
00:37:06,120 --> 00:37:10,560
But anything I want to store 
into the future, I use another 

654
00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:14,320
asset for that we can call 
money, right? 

655
00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:18,120
It falls under money as you say,
but it's it's the store value 

656
00:37:18,120 --> 00:37:23,520
aspect that that I use Bitcoin 
for because the euro and dollar 

657
00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:26,720
have lost that ability to be the
savings vehicle. 

658
00:37:26,720 --> 00:37:29,920
And that's also, that's also 
what what we learn from the 

659
00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:32,400
regressive theory, right? 
It needs, it needs to have a 

660
00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:35,200
store value function first, 
because before you can use it, 

661
00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:38,280
if you want to use it as a 
currency or a unit of 

662
00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:41,080
transaction. 
And this is this is if you look 

663
00:37:41,080 --> 00:37:45,440
closely, this is also one of the
big fights within the Bitcoin 

664
00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:48,480
because technically Bitcoin 
sector, the Bitcoin well, 

665
00:37:48,480 --> 00:37:51,160
because technically, yes, 
technically I can send you sats 

666
00:37:51,160 --> 00:37:53,040
right now. 
I am totally fascinated. 

667
00:37:53,040 --> 00:37:56,280
So one of the the things I think
Bitcoin will be adopted as a 

668
00:37:56,280 --> 00:38:01,120
store as as a as a currency and 
and unit of exchange is anything

669
00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:04,560
that cannot be done on Fiat 
rails on the Internet. 

670
00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:09,040
So Noster, for example, 
something like or or podcasting 

671
00:38:09,040 --> 00:38:13,120
2 point O like streaming money, 
you know, stuff that really does

672
00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:16,280
not work within the Fiat rails. 
But then we still have the 

673
00:38:16,280 --> 00:38:19,720
problem with regulation. 
So with there's some some open 

674
00:38:19,720 --> 00:38:24,160
questions here and the questions
when it comes to using Bitcoin 

675
00:38:24,160 --> 00:38:28,320
as a store value as capital, 
these questions have mostly been

676
00:38:28,320 --> 00:38:30,720
answered now. 
This is why Michael is talking 

677
00:38:30,720 --> 00:38:33,800
about the the Bitcoin gold rush 
starting with the ETFs. 

678
00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:38,360
So it's basically that's was the
the start the the, the how do 

679
00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:40,400
you say it was the the starting 
point? 

680
00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:41,280
Right. 
Yeah. 

681
00:38:43,440 --> 00:38:47,480
Well, I, I think yesterday I 
also saw or maybe it was Nick 

682
00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:51,320
actually who tweeted it also 
before, but for certain final 

683
00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:55,920
settlements of really big 
numbers, right that that also 

684
00:38:55,920 --> 00:38:59,440
are not very well done on the on
the Fiat rails. 

685
00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:05,720
Let's say you have to settle 1 
billion plus a final settlement 

686
00:39:05,720 --> 00:39:10,200
through Bitcoin with, you know, 
within one hour across the world

687
00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:13,400
at any time to anywhere from 
any, anywhere. 

688
00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:15,880
Yes, you know, that is already 
fast enough. 

689
00:39:16,480 --> 00:39:20,440
And I, I agree with you. 
There's a lot of of course, 

690
00:39:20,440 --> 00:39:22,720
because in the, in the, in the 
white paper, it says, you know, 

691
00:39:22,720 --> 00:39:26,640
it's a peer-to-peer. 
Money, electronic cash, 

692
00:39:26,680 --> 00:39:29,760
electronic cash system. 
But but there's well, yes, good 

693
00:39:29,760 --> 00:39:30,800
point. 
Yeah, go for it. 

694
00:39:30,800 --> 00:39:33,000
There's the question, there's 
the question, how do what, what,

695
00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:35,200
what is cash, right? 
How do we define cash? 

696
00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:38,400
Because the first idea that we 
get is, you know, we use it for 

697
00:39:38,400 --> 00:39:41,640
payments, but you can also see 
it as a, as a bearer instrument,

698
00:39:42,160 --> 00:39:45,520
as a final exactly because when.
People think about cash, they, 

699
00:39:45,520 --> 00:39:48,120
they have the, the bills in 
their hand, but the bills are 

700
00:39:48,120 --> 00:39:53,720
also an abstraction of the 
actual, you know, the, the, the 

701
00:39:53,720 --> 00:39:58,640
bills are not the base layer of 
the value, something Bitcoin can

702
00:39:58,640 --> 00:40:02,080
be, right? 
And I think that's where the big

703
00:40:02,080 --> 00:40:05,320
difference is. 
And we talked about why doesn't,

704
00:40:05,520 --> 00:40:08,760
why does nobody get it in the, 
in the, in the, why do so few 

705
00:40:08,760 --> 00:40:10,520
people get it in the so-called 
mainstream world? 

706
00:40:10,520 --> 00:40:14,280
Well, one of the reasons is that
we Bitcoin us, we, we, we, we 

707
00:40:14,280 --> 00:40:17,120
use many, you know, narratives, 
you know, there's always this 

708
00:40:17,120 --> 00:40:18,600
different stories. 
This is true. 

709
00:40:18,640 --> 00:40:20,800
This is true. 
So one of the, one of the things

710
00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:24,160
that you can do is you go back 
to the original sources, which 

711
00:40:24,160 --> 00:40:26,600
is Satoshi Rakamoto and what he 
writes about. 

712
00:40:26,720 --> 00:40:28,120
But that this is also 
interesting. 

713
00:40:28,120 --> 00:40:33,240
I think it's important by 
definition, he knew what he 

714
00:40:33,240 --> 00:40:35,400
wanted to do on the technical 
level. 

715
00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:37,600
He knew that he wanted to fix 
the money. 

716
00:40:38,560 --> 00:40:40,520
That's why I called my 
newsletter Fix the Money, by the

717
00:40:40,520 --> 00:40:42,520
way, and because it was still 
free to fix the money. 

718
00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:45,040
Sub stack, sub domain. 
Handle. 

719
00:40:47,960 --> 00:40:51,240
But he wouldn't, I mean he had 
no like no possibility to know 

720
00:40:51,240 --> 00:40:54,120
where it would lead. 
Do you know what I mean? 

721
00:40:54,160 --> 00:40:56,000
Like I agree we can. 
It's not. 

722
00:40:56,080 --> 00:40:57,760
His word is interesting and 
important. 

723
00:40:57,760 --> 00:40:59,960
It's not gospel. 
He doesn't understand. 

724
00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:02,280
He couldn't understand or he 
couldn't see where this would 

725
00:41:02,280 --> 00:41:05,040
lead. 
And of course, you can say maybe

726
00:41:05,040 --> 00:41:07,440
it goes the wrong. 
I mean, some people have argued 

727
00:41:07,440 --> 00:41:10,040
that we need to go with their 
fork because it was Satoshi's 

728
00:41:10,040 --> 00:41:12,240
vision, right? 
But who knows what Satoshi's 

729
00:41:12,240 --> 00:41:15,640
vision really was. 
And even if you know visions, 

730
00:41:15,640 --> 00:41:19,600
you know, if you have in German,
we say if we have visions, go to

731
00:41:19,600 --> 00:41:28,160
the doctor, you know, yes, so so
we don't know that. 

732
00:41:28,160 --> 00:41:31,640
What we do know is that that 
that there is a problem in our 

733
00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:39,600
current system that let's just 
say if you had an asset that you

734
00:41:39,600 --> 00:41:44,000
could store your value in that 
appreciated by 50-60, maybe 30 

735
00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:50,360
or 40 or 20% a year, who would 
not do that really, right. 

736
00:41:50,520 --> 00:41:53,120
I mean, we are like people, 
people buy. 

737
00:41:53,720 --> 00:41:55,760
This is also interesting. 
You know, we say number go up, 

738
00:41:55,760 --> 00:41:57,440
right? 
And and then we say, ah, you 

739
00:41:57,440 --> 00:42:02,040
can't say number got because 
people that's basically the 

740
00:42:02,040 --> 00:42:04,480
argument for the stock market 
and it's basically the argument 

741
00:42:04,480 --> 00:42:09,480
for real estate that of course, 
hundreds of billions, thousands 

742
00:42:09,480 --> 00:42:13,480
of billions get invested into 
the stock market and into real 

743
00:42:13,480 --> 00:42:16,280
estate because somebody says, 
well, it's not going to go down.

744
00:42:16,280 --> 00:42:18,560
Don't worry, it's funny. 
Right. 

745
00:42:18,640 --> 00:42:21,160
It's, you know, what I think is 
funny when you think about 

746
00:42:21,160 --> 00:42:25,400
number go up, we think about the
price in increasing, right? 

747
00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:30,760
But if this is a better store of
value than, you know, Fiat 

748
00:42:30,760 --> 00:42:34,920
money, then the price is 
increasing, but also because 

749
00:42:34,920 --> 00:42:37,400
Fiat money is, is crashing, 
right? 

750
00:42:37,400 --> 00:42:40,240
So I think it should be more be 
like value go up. 

751
00:42:40,920 --> 00:42:45,760
So not price go up, but value go
up like because whatever you 

752
00:42:45,760 --> 00:42:49,600
want to do with the value, 
economic value or energy, you 

753
00:42:49,600 --> 00:42:53,520
know, as Sander says, that 
doesn't that doesn't really 

754
00:42:53,520 --> 00:42:56,480
matter. 
And price and value is not, is 

755
00:42:56,480 --> 00:42:59,280
not the same thing. 
But I think also that that's 

756
00:42:59,280 --> 00:43:02,480
what's conflated in Fiats. 
So The thing is that The thing 

757
00:43:02,480 --> 00:43:10,240
is that that I have this, this, 
this serious on my on my German 

758
00:43:10,240 --> 00:43:12,960
channel with Peter Cotosec, who 
is the 84 year old Bitcoin. 

759
00:43:12,960 --> 00:43:16,280
He has been in Bitcoin since it 
was since 2012. 

760
00:43:16,920 --> 00:43:19,240
And he's 84 years old. 
He's an artist and an 

761
00:43:19,240 --> 00:43:21,320
entrepreneur, but he's an 
entrepreneur first. 

762
00:43:21,320 --> 00:43:24,080
He's, he's basically the ones 
called him the Austrian Bill 

763
00:43:24,080 --> 00:43:27,280
Gates when he was like the first
guy to do computers in the 60s, 

764
00:43:27,280 --> 00:43:28,680
right? 
60s and 70s. 

765
00:43:28,920 --> 00:43:32,160
He, he and his company, they 
built all the computers that are

766
00:43:32,160 --> 00:43:35,480
still running today in the, in 
the basements of the ministries 

767
00:43:35,480 --> 00:43:37,400
and the banks and, and whatnot, 
right? 

768
00:43:38,160 --> 00:43:40,680
And he made a lot of money doing
that, very successful. 

769
00:43:40,960 --> 00:43:43,320
And he's also an artist. 
So he always tries new things. 

770
00:43:43,320 --> 00:43:44,800
That's why he went into Second 
Life. 

771
00:43:44,800 --> 00:43:47,360
And after he had problems in 
Second Life, he went to Bitcoin 

772
00:43:47,840 --> 00:43:51,960
and, and he's a fascinating guy.
And he's also a shareholder of 

773
00:43:51,960 --> 00:43:54,920
MicroStrategy. 
He watches every single Michael 

774
00:43:54,920 --> 00:43:58,560
Saylor interview at 84, every 
single Michael Saylor interview.

775
00:43:59,480 --> 00:44:02,800
And he also in the, I think it 
was 80s, nineties, he, he did 

776
00:44:02,800 --> 00:44:06,400
the book, he was, he was writing
in the book. 

777
00:44:06,880 --> 00:44:08,920
And it was, it was the opposite 
of the club of Rome. 

778
00:44:08,920 --> 00:44:11,480
The club of Rome was asking what
are the, the limits to, to 

779
00:44:11,480 --> 00:44:14,120
growth, right? 
And they were asking what is 

780
00:44:14,120 --> 00:44:16,920
actually, what is actually the, 
the, the reasons for growth? 

781
00:44:16,920 --> 00:44:18,520
Where does growth come from? 
We like growth. 

782
00:44:18,520 --> 00:44:21,720
We want more growth, you know, 
screw you and your limits, 

783
00:44:21,920 --> 00:44:24,000
right? 
And, and he was writing an 

784
00:44:24,000 --> 00:44:27,000
article about, this was long 
before he was writing an article

785
00:44:27,000 --> 00:44:28,800
about how do you even measure 
growth? 

786
00:44:29,800 --> 00:44:32,800
Because, because, because like 
you said, our Fiat money, our, 

787
00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:36,000
our gross domestic product, 
everything that we that we 

788
00:44:36,360 --> 00:44:41,360
measure and count in dollars or 
euros is, is, you know, the 

789
00:44:41,360 --> 00:44:43,440
measurement stick always 
changes. 

790
00:44:43,440 --> 00:44:44,640
Wrong. 
Yeah, exactly. 

791
00:44:44,640 --> 00:44:46,200
It's a number. 
Yes, exactly. 

792
00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:48,920
So it makes no sense. 
But of course one of the reasons

793
00:44:48,920 --> 00:44:52,240
why we why we where we where we 
might now see things that we 

794
00:44:52,240 --> 00:44:54,760
haven't seen before with Bitcoin
is because we didn't have 

795
00:44:54,760 --> 00:44:57,360
anything like Bitcoin. 
We could not measure. 

796
00:44:57,720 --> 00:44:59,600
There wasn't anything to measure
with, right? 

797
00:45:01,000 --> 00:45:03,480
And he's comparing it to to the 
meter. 

798
00:45:04,040 --> 00:45:08,200
So he says once we, we however 
we got there, but once we define

799
00:45:08,400 --> 00:45:10,880
that this is the meter right 
now, right? 

800
00:45:11,200 --> 00:45:13,640
The meter is this long and it's 
not this long and not this long,

801
00:45:13,840 --> 00:45:15,400
then we could start measuring 
things. 

802
00:45:15,720 --> 00:45:20,000
So Bitcoin is the only constant 
in the whole economic universe. 

803
00:45:20,160 --> 00:45:22,600
The only thing I can count, I 
don't know how much gold there 

804
00:45:22,600 --> 00:45:23,720
is. 
I don't know how many dollars 

805
00:45:23,720 --> 00:45:25,000
there are. 
I don't know how many houses 

806
00:45:25,040 --> 00:45:29,960
there are in the world, right? 
There's all, it's all, you know,

807
00:45:30,320 --> 00:45:32,520
approximations, but it's never 
definite. 

808
00:45:32,520 --> 00:45:36,280
With Bitcoin, we have a definite
we, we absolutely know how many 

809
00:45:36,280 --> 00:45:38,440
bitcoins there are in the world 
and how many Satoshi's and 

810
00:45:38,440 --> 00:45:40,280
whatnot. 
So we for the first time in 

811
00:45:40,280 --> 00:45:43,480
human history, we have the 
option to actually measure 

812
00:45:43,800 --> 00:45:46,600
stuff. 
This was never never like 

813
00:45:46,640 --> 00:45:50,000
economic, economic measurement 
was not possible before Bitcoin.

814
00:45:50,640 --> 00:45:54,560
So I think I mean, that makes me
very bullish. 

815
00:45:55,520 --> 00:45:59,200
And and so this is where all the
idea of repricing everything in 

816
00:45:59,200 --> 00:46:02,520
Bitcoin comes from. 
And of course, and this is for 

817
00:46:02,520 --> 00:46:05,640
many Bitcoiners, this is also 
going to be hard to accept 

818
00:46:05,640 --> 00:46:09,000
because because he sees this, 
and I think that Michael Saylor 

819
00:46:09,000 --> 00:46:12,400
sees this too, that the state 
will play a role here. 

820
00:46:13,240 --> 00:46:16,160
The state will play a role in 
saying, OK, we're adopting 

821
00:46:16,160 --> 00:46:18,400
Bitcoin as a measurement. 
We are doing this now. 

822
00:46:18,400 --> 00:46:20,800
And we'll, we force everybody 
else to do it as well because 

823
00:46:20,800 --> 00:46:23,360
that's how it's going to, that's
how it's going to work, right? 

824
00:46:24,360 --> 00:46:26,560
It's not going to be the market 
alone. 

825
00:46:27,040 --> 00:46:33,920
The market decided on gold, but 
in 600 BC, King Krusos in Lydia 

826
00:46:33,920 --> 00:46:37,440
was the first one to actually 
standardize the size of the gold

827
00:46:37,440 --> 00:46:39,240
coin. 
Stamp it with his face. 

828
00:46:39,240 --> 00:46:42,040
They already started with their 
faces immediately, for some 

829
00:46:42,040 --> 00:46:44,520
reason, faces the way to go with
coins, right? 

830
00:46:44,760 --> 00:46:47,760
Stamp it with his face. 
And lo and behold, today we 

831
00:46:47,760 --> 00:46:50,240
still talk about Krusos as the 
richest man in the world because

832
00:46:50,240 --> 00:46:54,320
he offered a standardized 
currency to trade and everybody 

833
00:46:54,320 --> 00:46:59,120
loved it because, because it's 
easier to actually measure stuff

834
00:46:59,120 --> 00:47:00,160
with it. 
Right. 

835
00:47:00,200 --> 00:47:04,800
And the same story goes for the 
Florent in, in, in, in Europe. 

836
00:47:04,800 --> 00:47:08,840
And I don't know, maybe 15-16 
hundred, I don't want to say 

837
00:47:08,840 --> 00:47:11,200
something stupid, but you can 
read it in, in Nick's book. 

838
00:47:11,920 --> 00:47:15,480
It was, it was a gold coin 
printed by Florentina, which 

839
00:47:15,480 --> 00:47:19,960
was, yes, a city state, but 
basically like, like the private

840
00:47:19,960 --> 00:47:22,920
entity within the, the, the 
world of, of, of governments 

841
00:47:22,920 --> 00:47:24,440
back then. 
And they knew. 

842
00:47:24,760 --> 00:47:27,280
As long as they provide the 
world with the service of of a 

843
00:47:27,280 --> 00:47:30,560
non, you know, diluted coin, a 
really, really good gold coin, 

844
00:47:30,760 --> 00:47:34,720
they profit as well, right. 
This is why it's Bitcoin is so 

845
00:47:34,720 --> 00:47:38,360
fascinating, because in that 
sense, it's not new, right? 

846
00:47:38,360 --> 00:47:42,040
We know that hard money 
standards have strong have 

847
00:47:42,040 --> 00:47:45,800
worked before, right. 
I, I didn't know what you just 

848
00:47:45,800 --> 00:47:52,040
said about Fiorentina, but makes
total sense Like that doing 

849
00:47:52,040 --> 00:47:56,000
that, creating that coin is 
basically a public surface. 

850
00:47:56,920 --> 00:48:02,760
And I, I think that what is nice
about Bitcoin though, is because

851
00:48:03,240 --> 00:48:06,560
compared to let's stick with 
Fiorentina, right? 

852
00:48:07,480 --> 00:48:10,440
There were people there that 
could have corrupted it. 

853
00:48:10,440 --> 00:48:12,280
Or maybe they did. 
I don't know the entire story, 

854
00:48:12,280 --> 00:48:14,400
right? 
But I think with Bitcoin, you 

855
00:48:14,400 --> 00:48:19,080
cannot corrupt it. 
So once a government adopts it, 

856
00:48:19,080 --> 00:48:23,280
they have to adhere to that, 
that ethos that Bitcoin then 

857
00:48:23,520 --> 00:48:28,280
basically inflicts on them or or
forces them to adhere to. 

858
00:48:28,280 --> 00:48:31,240
And that is what I think is, is 
like the ground breaking, world 

859
00:48:31,240 --> 00:48:36,080
changing thing that once you 
adopt it, you cannot unadopted 

860
00:48:36,080 --> 00:48:39,640
anymore because it will bring 
you way more value than you 

861
00:48:39,640 --> 00:48:42,200
know, letting it go again. 
And I love what you said about 

862
00:48:42,200 --> 00:48:44,360
the meter. 
I'm actually working on an essay

863
00:48:44,360 --> 00:48:48,120
that is called Bitcoin is the 
standard measurement for human 

864
00:48:48,120 --> 00:48:50,560
productivity. 
You know, if, if we want to 

865
00:48:50,560 --> 00:48:55,880
value our time and finite time 
and energy against something 

866
00:48:56,000 --> 00:48:59,320
that that represents a reward, 
it should be something that is 

867
00:48:59,320 --> 00:49:03,280
also finite. 
And now we are being rewarded 

868
00:49:03,280 --> 00:49:05,600
with something that's infinite, 
which is not the right 

869
00:49:06,320 --> 00:49:08,920
measurement because as you said,
it's changing all the time. 

870
00:49:08,920 --> 00:49:12,440
And if you look at different 
countries, if if three people do

871
00:49:12,440 --> 00:49:15,280
the exact same thing, deliver 
the same value, but one lives in

872
00:49:15,280 --> 00:49:18,600
the UK, the other in Congo and 
the third one in America, they 

873
00:49:18,640 --> 00:49:24,880
all get rewarded at a different.
That's why, that's why in our 

874
00:49:24,880 --> 00:49:28,200
Fiat system, rich people, you 
know, don't hold currency. 

875
00:49:29,200 --> 00:49:30,760
Exactly. 
They don't, they, they don't, 

876
00:49:31,120 --> 00:49:33,320
they hold negative currency. 
They're over levered. 

877
00:49:33,320 --> 00:49:36,160
They go into debt in order to, 
to speculate against the 

878
00:49:36,160 --> 00:49:37,640
currency. 
That's what rich people do. 

879
00:49:37,760 --> 00:49:40,000
And, and, and poor people are 
the ones who are actually saving

880
00:49:40,000 --> 00:49:42,320
currency. 
It's completely upside down. 

881
00:49:43,080 --> 00:49:46,080
Yeah. 
Well, OK, I want to be mindful 

882
00:49:46,080 --> 00:49:47,400
of your time. 
What? 

883
00:49:47,760 --> 00:49:49,000
When you're looking at the 
clock? 

884
00:49:49,000 --> 00:49:52,240
How? 
Let's do, let's do 10 more 

885
00:49:52,240 --> 00:49:53,920
minutes, OK? 
OK, cool. 

886
00:49:55,520 --> 00:50:01,160
Then I'll ask you this. 
How do you define risk in 

887
00:50:01,160 --> 00:50:04,600
financial terms? 
Do you think Bitcoin is risky? 

888
00:50:06,360 --> 00:50:12,880
So I am not an expert for risk 
because risk is a very, very 

889
00:50:12,880 --> 00:50:17,520
loaded, very, very interesting 
economic concept, right? 

890
00:50:18,760 --> 00:50:22,040
I don't think that it's like if 
I talk about if Bitcoin is 

891
00:50:22,040 --> 00:50:24,920
risky, I would not be talking 
about like it from the 

892
00:50:24,920 --> 00:50:31,400
perspective of maybe Greg Foss, 
who has spent famously spent 30 

893
00:50:31,400 --> 00:50:34,680
years in a in a risk chair and 
knows about risk and I don't, 

894
00:50:34,800 --> 00:50:36,960
right. 
But if you ask me if it's risky 

895
00:50:36,960 --> 00:50:40,840
to invest in Bitcoin or it's 
risky to to I mean, what what's 

896
00:50:40,840 --> 00:50:43,520
the question? 
Is it risky to invest in Bitcoin

897
00:50:43,520 --> 00:50:46,560
or I? 
Don't know. 

898
00:50:46,560 --> 00:50:50,480
I think people, well, I do know 
I mean more like people. 

899
00:50:51,360 --> 00:50:54,040
You said investing. 
It's funny because I use saving 

900
00:50:54,400 --> 00:50:57,400
right? 
So I see myself as a very risk 

901
00:50:57,400 --> 00:51:00,640
averse person, person and 
somewhat of a control freak. 

902
00:51:00,640 --> 00:51:06,160
And for me, Bitcoin is the most 
logical and rational thing to 

903
00:51:06,160 --> 00:51:12,560
save my my monetary energy in. 
So for me it became less risky. 

904
00:51:12,560 --> 00:51:16,680
But if you hear people talk 
about it, you know, it's new and

905
00:51:16,680 --> 00:51:18,800
whatever. 
Like they it's deemed risky, 

906
00:51:18,800 --> 00:51:21,800
same as with like it's volatile 
or lacks intrinsic failure or 

907
00:51:21,800 --> 00:51:23,880
whatever. 
So I just want to get your. 

908
00:51:23,880 --> 00:51:25,720
Perspective on how you look at 
it. 

909
00:51:25,720 --> 00:51:30,000
It needs courage and it needs 
some conviction in your own 

910
00:51:30,200 --> 00:51:34,640
opinions. 
And it needs, it needs like you 

911
00:51:35,640 --> 00:51:43,960
need to be able to like risk not
only your money, but parts of 

912
00:51:43,960 --> 00:51:45,920
your reputation. 
You know, people could laugh at 

913
00:51:45,920 --> 00:51:51,720
you, right? 
But but once you've done it and 

914
00:51:51,720 --> 00:51:54,080
once you come out of the other 
side, you feel a lot better 

915
00:51:54,080 --> 00:51:56,640
because because you know, it's 
not that bad. 

916
00:51:57,440 --> 00:52:01,040
And people actually, like I 
said, most people just want to, 

917
00:52:01,520 --> 00:52:04,480
you know, not do anything 
really, you know, they just 

918
00:52:04,480 --> 00:52:10,520
want, you know, to be told what 
to do and to, to, to do what 

919
00:52:10,520 --> 00:52:14,760
they're told, you know, today, 
like, OK, let's put it this way.

920
00:52:14,840 --> 00:52:16,280
Let's put it this way. 
This is interesting. 

921
00:52:17,520 --> 00:52:19,320
You got into Bitcoin very early,
right? 

922
00:52:20,800 --> 00:52:22,040
Yes. 
So let's like. 

923
00:52:22,440 --> 00:52:24,960
Semi early 2013. 
Yeah, that's pretty early. 

924
00:52:26,760 --> 00:52:31,200
Back then, you know, I don't 
even know what the scene was 

925
00:52:31,200 --> 00:52:34,280
back then of people who would 
like mostly techies and 

926
00:52:34,280 --> 00:52:35,960
cypherpunks and, you know, 
people. 

927
00:52:37,120 --> 00:52:41,680
So then we had a face. 
And this is also then we had a 

928
00:52:41,680 --> 00:52:50,840
face, I would say between maybe 
1617 and 2020 was the face of 

929
00:52:51,760 --> 00:52:54,520
craziness, right? 
That was the face where 

930
00:52:54,680 --> 00:52:58,160
everybody, everybody tried 
something and you know, many 

931
00:52:58,160 --> 00:53:01,120
people, you know, came up with 
their own block chains and, and,

932
00:53:01,160 --> 00:53:06,600
and the crypto stuff and, and, 
and very, very, very basic work 

933
00:53:06,600 --> 00:53:13,760
in the Bitcoin sphere. 
Now I am maybe I'm already like 

934
00:53:13,920 --> 00:53:19,200
the first, the beginning of the,
the boring, the more boring 

935
00:53:19,200 --> 00:53:21,480
phase, right? 
You know, like, like, like, 

936
00:53:21,680 --> 00:53:25,360
like, you know, when, when, 
when, when, when you and club 

937
00:53:25,360 --> 00:53:29,680
came in into Liverpool and he 
talked about, you know, some, 

938
00:53:29,680 --> 00:53:32,320
some people call themselves the 
special one and the normal one, 

939
00:53:32,600 --> 00:53:35,080
right? 
So now we have, we have people 

940
00:53:35,080 --> 00:53:38,160
who are already losing their 
hair and wear shirts and talk 

941
00:53:38,160 --> 00:53:41,680
about Bitcoin in a more broader 
sense and try to make it, you 

942
00:53:41,680 --> 00:53:47,240
know, So what I'm saying is that
the longer time, of course it's 

943
00:53:47,240 --> 00:53:50,280
there, it's less risky to, to, 
to go into this field. 

944
00:53:50,400 --> 00:53:52,720
And we see this today. 
And now with the ETFs, there's 

945
00:53:52,720 --> 00:53:56,800
another, you know, marker that 
it's not so risky, right. 

946
00:53:58,000 --> 00:54:01,360
And, and one of the most 
important markets because people

947
00:54:01,360 --> 00:54:04,320
were super worried about Bitcoin
being being banned or whatever. 

948
00:54:04,800 --> 00:54:05,960
Now it's not going to get 
banned. 

949
00:54:05,960 --> 00:54:10,600
So, so it's becoming less risky 
to get into Bitcoin on a on a 

950
00:54:10,600 --> 00:54:12,680
reputation level and the money 
stuff. 

951
00:54:12,680 --> 00:54:15,640
Well, yeah, I think people are 
more worried about the 

952
00:54:15,640 --> 00:54:18,400
reputation and, and and what I 
just will think that about the 

953
00:54:18,400 --> 00:54:21,240
money anyway, because people, 
you know, I could buy Bitcoin 

954
00:54:21,240 --> 00:54:23,560
and not tell anybody about it. 
And then my money is in there. 

955
00:54:23,560 --> 00:54:25,240
And if you lose money, I don't 
tell anybody. 

956
00:54:25,240 --> 00:54:27,480
And if you win money, I don't 
tell anybody. 

957
00:54:27,920 --> 00:54:31,720
But either way, it's a hard 
thing to do right, doing this 

958
00:54:31,720 --> 00:54:36,720
this stuff and secret. 
So it's not like I don't think 

959
00:54:36,720 --> 00:54:39,840
it's risky anymore really. 
I think today it's it's risky 

960
00:54:39,840 --> 00:54:43,280
not to get into Bitcoin. 
I think we have cross the, the 

961
00:54:43,280 --> 00:54:48,240
Rubicon when it comes to that, 
But I like, I'm only here 

962
00:54:48,240 --> 00:54:50,920
because that's the reason I, I, 
I knew, you know, when I 

963
00:54:50,920 --> 00:54:54,560
started, I was 838. 
I already had a career 

964
00:54:54,560 --> 00:54:58,440
journalism. 
I, I have a family. 

965
00:54:58,440 --> 00:55:01,360
I, you know, I can't just, you 
know, jump into the, into the 

966
00:55:01,360 --> 00:55:04,640
lake and hope I don't freeze. 
I have to have some plan of 

967
00:55:04,640 --> 00:55:08,040
coming out again. 
And, and so far it's been 

968
00:55:08,040 --> 00:55:09,520
working out well. 
And I think it's great the 

969
00:55:09,520 --> 00:55:13,080
people I meet, you know, the 
people Bitcoin attracts some of 

970
00:55:13,080 --> 00:55:14,920
the smartest people that you 
could meet. 

971
00:55:14,920 --> 00:55:16,480
You know, it's also social 
network. 

972
00:55:16,480 --> 00:55:19,640
I can go to any city in the 
world, go to Telegram group, go 

973
00:55:19,680 --> 00:55:22,600
to Twitter, go to the orange 
pillab, find other bitcoiners, 

974
00:55:22,600 --> 00:55:25,840
hang out with them, and it's 
going to be a great evening. 

975
00:55:26,040 --> 00:55:29,160
You know, it's, it's, it's, it's
an amazing place to be in. 

976
00:55:29,160 --> 00:55:32,560
And it, and one of the main 
reasons why it attracted me is 

977
00:55:32,640 --> 00:55:35,320
because people are optimistic 
and people want to build a 

978
00:55:35,320 --> 00:55:38,080
better future. 
And, and if that's something 

979
00:55:38,080 --> 00:55:41,920
that, you know, it's risky, then
yes, then then that might be 

980
00:55:41,920 --> 00:55:43,480
risky. 
But that's a risk that I'm 

981
00:55:43,480 --> 00:55:49,440
absolutely willing to take. 
Yeah, yeah, it's interesting. 

982
00:55:49,440 --> 00:55:52,200
I'm I'm now that I asked you the
question and I hear your answer.

983
00:55:52,200 --> 00:55:55,280
I'm thinking about it as well, 
but I think it brings more like,

984
00:55:55,320 --> 00:55:59,720
like one thing stood out and I, 
I've said that before as well. 

985
00:56:00,000 --> 00:56:07,480
Once you experience that, it 
gives you the confidence to 

986
00:56:07,480 --> 00:56:12,240
follow your own qualities and 
values and intuition. 

987
00:56:12,840 --> 00:56:17,440
That is what the real value is, 
at least for me, with regards to

988
00:56:17,440 --> 00:56:20,000
Bitcoin, the fact that you can 
trust your own mind that you 

989
00:56:20,000 --> 00:56:23,880
know, you did to work to figure 
out, you know, what is this 

990
00:56:23,880 --> 00:56:25,720
thing? 
How does it contradict to what 

991
00:56:25,720 --> 00:56:28,040
I've learned? 
Is that what I really believe or

992
00:56:28,040 --> 00:56:31,320
what is my new belief? 
You know, and that you exactly 

993
00:56:31,320 --> 00:56:33,920
like you say, you see all these 
different people from around the

994
00:56:33,920 --> 00:56:37,200
world gravitate towards this 
thing like that is a signal by 

995
00:56:37,200 --> 00:56:42,640
itself, you know, and any, any 
bit corner you meet you you have

996
00:56:42,640 --> 00:56:46,840
a certain level of understanding
because people did that work, 

997
00:56:47,040 --> 00:56:50,200
that personal work. 
And and that is just that that 

998
00:56:50,200 --> 00:56:54,120
is really hard by itself. 
And that creates, I think, yeah,

999
00:56:54,200 --> 00:56:56,720
you can fly anywhere and meet 
bits corners like that is the 

1000
00:56:56,720 --> 00:57:02,320
network state that is the 
digital state of humans that 

1001
00:57:02,320 --> 00:57:06,240
that Balaji, for example, talks 
about right slowly. 

1002
00:57:06,240 --> 00:57:08,480
Developing. 
It's slowly developing and it's,

1003
00:57:08,480 --> 00:57:11,080
it's something that, you know 
you want to be part of once 

1004
00:57:11,080 --> 00:57:13,960
you've seen it. 
And it's something that I am 

1005
00:57:13,960 --> 00:57:16,600
very glad to be part of. 
And it's and it and it develops 

1006
00:57:16,680 --> 00:57:19,440
almost a secret really. 
You know, we talk openly about 

1007
00:57:19,440 --> 00:57:21,920
it, but people won't understand.
People don't pay attention. 

1008
00:57:22,040 --> 00:57:28,040
Yeah. 
And and and it's, it's and it, 

1009
00:57:28,040 --> 00:57:31,160
the, The thing is also, I mean, 
I told you I came into Bitcoin 

1010
00:57:31,160 --> 00:57:34,520
very late. 
I don't even like own a lot of 

1011
00:57:34,520 --> 00:57:37,360
Bitcoin and I don't care. 
You know, one of the reasons why

1012
00:57:37,360 --> 00:57:40,600
I can do this is because I don't
really like, I never invested a 

1013
00:57:40,600 --> 00:57:44,960
lot because because, you know, 
being out in the open, you don't

1014
00:57:44,960 --> 00:57:47,600
want to, you know, run around 
and say people you I have lots 

1015
00:57:47,600 --> 00:57:49,280
of Bitcoin. 
I don't because I only got into 

1016
00:57:49,280 --> 00:57:52,120
Bitcoin when it was in the five 
figures, right? 

1017
00:57:52,120 --> 00:57:56,080
So I didn't have any money. 
So, but I don't care because 

1018
00:57:56,080 --> 00:57:58,400
speed card is also good for you.
If you don't, if you don't own a

1019
00:57:58,400 --> 00:58:01,080
lot, it doesn't matter it. 
Does not matter. 

1020
00:58:01,480 --> 00:58:03,200
It doesn't matter how how much 
you own. 

1021
00:58:03,400 --> 00:58:07,120
It doesn't and it's, it's, it's 
just like I, I only look into 

1022
00:58:07,120 --> 00:58:10,160
the future and of like the value
that I can provide and then 

1023
00:58:10,360 --> 00:58:13,200
maybe the money I can make. 
But with my company. 

1024
00:58:13,200 --> 00:58:18,040
But but I like, I think the most
important thing. 

1025
00:58:18,040 --> 00:58:21,040
That's why, why, why Michael 
talked about, you know, 

1026
00:58:21,280 --> 00:58:25,080
hope.com, right? 
It gives you a perspective into 

1027
00:58:25,080 --> 00:58:27,880
the future and it's a Fiat 
system that we come out of. 

1028
00:58:29,240 --> 00:58:31,520
It gives no perspective anymore.
That's what you see in 

1029
00:58:31,520 --> 00:58:33,840
mainstream media. 
You know, the young people stop 

1030
00:58:33,840 --> 00:58:37,040
working, you know, they, they, 
they glue themselves to the, to 

1031
00:58:37,040 --> 00:58:39,320
the pavement or something. 
And, but they don't go work 

1032
00:58:39,320 --> 00:58:41,920
anymore that they're frustrated.
They're, they're, they're 

1033
00:58:41,920 --> 00:58:44,240
mentally ill. 
They're they don't have. 

1034
00:58:44,240 --> 00:58:46,200
Children. 
They don't have children because

1035
00:58:46,640 --> 00:58:52,000
it's it's it's a complete shit 
show And and and Bitcoin will 

1036
00:58:52,000 --> 00:58:54,240
fix this. 
I'm very, very like on on that. 

1037
00:58:54,240 --> 00:58:57,880
But of course, if you talk like 
this to somebody who is not into

1038
00:58:57,960 --> 00:59:01,920
in deep, because we are if you 
start talking about like this 

1039
00:59:01,920 --> 00:59:06,200
with your friends, when when you
go out, watch the football, have

1040
00:59:06,200 --> 00:59:08,760
3 beers and then you know, 
Bitcoin will fix the family. 

1041
00:59:08,960 --> 00:59:10,880
Yeah, well, then yes, you sound 
like a moron. 

1042
00:59:11,080 --> 00:59:14,280
Yeah. 
We'll take it for now. 

1043
00:59:14,360 --> 00:59:15,280
Right. 
We'll take it. 

1044
00:59:15,280 --> 00:59:16,880
We'll take it for now. 
It's fine. 

1045
00:59:17,040 --> 00:59:19,840
All right, Last question, and I 
ask everyone the same question. 

1046
00:59:20,400 --> 00:59:22,640
What is a core belief you will 
never let go? 

1047
00:59:26,080 --> 00:59:29,400
Only the individual things, only
the individual acts. 

1048
00:59:30,360 --> 00:59:34,960
That's looking for Mises. 
So I do believe that we are 

1049
00:59:35,000 --> 00:59:36,880
social animals. 
I do believe that we live in 

1050
00:59:36,880 --> 00:59:39,200
communities and we form 
communities and that that we 

1051
00:59:39,200 --> 00:59:42,880
basically do all of this for 
community, but we do not think 

1052
00:59:42,880 --> 00:59:46,240
or act as a community. 
Like Margaret Thatcher said, 

1053
00:59:46,240 --> 00:59:47,920
there's no such thing as 
society. 

1054
00:59:48,560 --> 00:59:52,040
You know, there is, there is, 
you know, constructs that we use

1055
00:59:53,120 --> 00:59:54,520
and it's very important that we 
have them. 

1056
00:59:54,520 --> 00:59:57,720
I think it's not like saying 
that only the individual things 

1057
00:59:57,720 --> 01:00:00,600
or individual access have 
nothing to do with egotistical 

1058
01:00:00,600 --> 01:00:04,160
behavior. 
It's only like a matter of 

1059
01:00:04,160 --> 01:00:08,280
nature basically, you know, and 
the the the the smallest 

1060
01:00:08,280 --> 01:00:11,800
minority is the individual. 
And I think that we have 

1061
01:00:11,800 --> 01:00:14,360
forgotten about that, especially
in the in the West. 

1062
01:00:14,880 --> 01:00:17,440
And we should, you know, 
rediscover that because that's 

1063
01:00:17,440 --> 01:00:20,400
the strength that we had in the 
Western world and in Europe Once

1064
01:00:20,400 --> 01:00:22,440
Upon a time. 
Yeah. 

1065
01:00:23,720 --> 01:00:26,160
Thanks so much for sharing that.
I really enjoyed this 

1066
01:00:26,160 --> 01:00:28,960
conversation. 
It it took us a long time, but I

1067
01:00:28,960 --> 01:00:31,800
think we we talked about a lot 
in just an hour. 

1068
01:00:32,240 --> 01:00:34,320
So I'd love to do that again in 
the future. 

1069
01:00:34,320 --> 01:00:37,400
And I will make sure to link, 
you know, to your social 

1070
01:00:37,400 --> 01:00:40,360
profiles review and subscribe on
the money and your YouTube 

1071
01:00:40,560 --> 01:00:43,320
channel so people can it will 
help us educate more millennials

1072
01:00:43,320 --> 01:00:46,160
on the importance of BX. 
Again, thanks for following all 

1073
01:00:46,160 --> 01:00:50,520
the best on Twitter. 
I'm Bram KATBR AM K and if you 

1074
01:00:50,520 --> 01:00:52,840
are or know someone who has an 
interesting perspective on 

1075
01:00:52,840 --> 01:00:54,720
Bitcoin that's worth sharing, 
hit me up. 

1076
01:00:55,080 --> 01:00:56,840
I read and reply to every single
message. 

1077
01:00:56,840 --> 01:00:59,640
I appreciate your support and 
hope you'll be here for the next

1078
01:00:59,640 --> 01:01:01,080
episode. 
Thanks for listening.