All right. Hey there.
This is from Constant and you're listening to Bitcoin for
Millennials. With my guests on this podcast,
I go on a journey to discover how our current financial system
works, why it's flawed, and why Bitcoin is the most relevant
technological discovery you should understand and adopt.
In this episode, I'm joined by Ella Huff.
She's a junior at Cornell University pursuing a Bitcoin
focused study through Cornell's Scholar degree program.
In addition, Ella is also the founder of the Cornell Bitcoin
Club, project lead at the nonprofit organization
Generation Bitcoin Co, founder of the Bitcoin Students Network,
and a contributor to Bitcoin Magazine.
Through her involvement, she's dedicated to helping young
generations learn about and contribute to Bitcoin, and I'm
super excited to talk with her today.
So welcome, Ella. Thank you so much for having me.
Well, thanks so much for coming on.
I love loved writing this intro. I mean, you're doing so much.
And we just talked off Mike, like, you know, sometimes I feel
old, even as a millennial. I mean, I'm 36, but you're 21
and your involvement in Bitcoin is so big.
So I'm. I'm super excited to talk with
you because I think this is really cool that, you know, like
someone from a younger generation is all into this.
And yeah, so let's talk about that.
But first I wanted to check with you.
I saw your Twitter bio says Generation Z marks the end of
the alphabet and beginning of the future where the B of
beginning as a Bitcoin B. So how do you experience talking
about Bitcoin with your generational peers?
Like what are? What are the 18/19/2021 year
olds talking about? Yeah.
So normally I just start by listening.
I just kind of, you know, in my, in my closer friend circle, I
know what they're interested. I know what they're concerned
about thinking about. So normally I just listen and
see, OK, you know what might resonate with them.
I have a friend, a lot of her family is from Russia.
And so sometimes we'd more so talk about the ability to, you
know, have money that can't be taken from you.
Or it really kind of varies a little bit.
Sometimes it's just sharing history.
Like I think at least in my journey of coming to learn about
Bitcoin and understand Bitcoin, I just didn't know what
questions to ask. I just didn't even know what I
should be thinking about And so sharing some history that might
come up and but if I had to give like, you know one sentence that
is sort of I think resonates with pretty much everybody and I
can't take credit from it for this sentence say, fitting a
moose at it. But Bitcoin, and I'm
paraphrasing, but Bitcoin is a tool to earn your wealth once
instead of twice. And so, you know, when I'm
talking to my peers, we're all in college, you know, starting
getting our first job, starting to think about how are we going
to take care of ourselves. The not many people are against.
Yeah, I'm on board with earning my money once instead of working
to it again. So sometimes that's just a a
good hook as like a conversation starter to start thinking about.
And I also really emphasize, you know, you don't have to change
whatever you're interested in to be interested in Bitcoin.
Like because it's, you know, my personal life, this is very
Bitcoin, which is my choice. It's how I want to spend my time
and energy. But I just preface, you know,
keep your interest, what you're interested in.
You know you don't need to change that to be interested in
Bitcoin. Yeah.
Well, maybe that's also the entire point, right.
I think if we talk about the problems that Fiat money gives
us is that people are doing things to earn money that they
don't enjoy doing, right? Because they are they are forced
to to do them instead of being able to create time to explore
what they actually want to do, right.
So I think, I think that's a that's a great angle.
So do you think like the the topic of money is a big thing?
Or like how do how do people end up thinking about Bitcoin or
asking you about Bitcoin? Like what's what are kind of
like the angles where they discover it or start thinking
about it. Yeah, I think it's it's hugely
also dependent on where you are in the world if you've grown up
experiencing financial privilege Tees as glad team's term or if
you have not. And so that's just one right off
kind of early on that you encounter normally in class I
focus on a lot of research topics in different classes.
It's kind of inevitable to talk about it.
And the other day we had the program I'm in at Cornell called
the College Scholar Program. We're all going around sharing
our abstracts for our proposals, for our thesis that we'll write,
and then they get to mind. And as everyone starts laughing,
people like I have no idea what Bitcoin is, but this sounds so
interesting and so yeah, it's it's not.
I wish I had a better, more definite answer of what's the
angle people are interested in. I think it's just, you know,
what's your background, your story, what are you interested
in currently? Like maybe if you're a
communications major, all the misinformation, maybe that's
interesting to you and like a new case study.
Maybe you're, you know, in CS and you're interested in kind of
like building on lightning or whatever.
It might be 1 core maybe, you know, one project in this
program they're focused on renewable energy and so for them
like maybe it's the Bitcoin mining.
So it's a variety and I think that's a huge gift.
It's not one-size-fits-all, just, you know, any person can
study the aspect that resonates with them.
Yeah. So lots of people have comments
on millennials. You know we are the trophy
generation. We we got trophies for
participating and and stuff. But I think like on Gen.
Z there's even more like comments and well, let's call
them preconceptions. But I kind of like see like from
my point of view, I kind of see like 2 two sides of Gen.
C kind of like extrapolated. Like they either have a very
like nihilistic worldview. You know it's all going to shit
and it's not going to work out. And how does my future look like
and will the world still exist? And like you know all these
things like or they have a very optimistic world, world view.
You know and I, I, I, I lean towards the optimistic also
because I think you know even more than like the millennial
generation who got into Internet like at 12:13, 14/15/16 ish,
like you grew up with the Internet, you already have like
all the information of the world at your fingertips, right.
So how, how do you look towards the future and and what do you
see your generation contribute to to the world?
I mean, I think I would follow you and that I look at the world
with a very optimistic outlook. I think, you know I go back to
why I have Gen. Z as the beginning, end of the
alphabet, beginning of the future.
Like this is the world that we're going to inherit.
These problems are our problems that we need to figure out and
solve and so, but I mean I also know that from what I see on
Twitter sometimes like the videos of people complaining on
TikTok or whatever. And so I guess that's kind of
one side that you're mentioning. But in my daily life what I see
is I see like the library full of people working.
I have seen friends, you know, staying up till 2:00 AM, working
people exerting energy to do good to try to contribute to
society. So I guess I would just take the
optimistic view and very is foolish in my generation that we
are not just going to say oh you know, forget it, that we are
going to take action and you know, work to build a better
future. Yeah.
So do you think I think like every generation points at the
previous generation, right like how what's your feeling there
like you know if you follow the the optimistic peers like you
know when you talk about inheriting the world like it is
like is there a lot of finger pointing or do you think people
feel empowered to to figure it out I.
Mean I think finger pointing is just a waste of time.
Like I personally wouldn't do it again with the history.
Like most people do not know that the dollar's lost 98% of
its purchasing power since 1971. They're not saying like I don't
and I've never heard one of my friends say, oh Nixon, like you
shouldn't have done that. Whatever.
I think just finger pointing's not effective.
Like let's just spend our time and energy doing something
productive and maybe you're like spend a lot of time going down
the wrong path. Like maybe the solution you
think will work doesn't. But I just generally see people
trying to put their energy to do something good, not just like
sitting and finger pointing on the whole.
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Now let's get back to the conversation.
I record an episode with your mother Lisa and for our
listeners, check out episode 30. She's obviously super orange
built now, but and I'm, I'm assuming you talk about Bitcoin
with her a lot, but what was her influence on you when you know
when you grew up, when it when it came to like learning about
money, finance and economics, Like how did you get into these
topics? Yeah.
So I think it's always helpful to kind of, you know, with time
you can reflect back and see what are the little, I call them
like dots that you collected that now you can connect.
And so I remember and maybe it was in 6th grade, maybe honestly
probably earlier than that, maybe 4th grade very young.
And we were at dinner. We're talking about what I'm
going to study in college. And I made some comment along
the lines of, oh, well, you know, I don't want to do
something just for the sake of money.
I don't. I want to do something that I
enjoy And my myself was like, no, no, you know, it is
expensive to just go outside and breathe.
And so we sat down and made a spreadsheet.
You know, we looked up like, OK, what major are you kind of
interested in? And I loved history.
I still love history. And so we're like, OK, what's
the average starting salary of a history major?
Where do you want to live? You know, how much are
utilities, Internet, like everything.
And the math just doesn't work, or it didn't work in that sense.
So I'd say that was probably one of the first moments when really
started talking about money. And also say my parents always
they they I didn't have a kids table.
Like I was a part of every conversation, whether I
understood what was going on or not.
And so then when it came time to apply to colleges was applying
CS. And prior to that, now we're
going to jump to high school is when my mom and I both started
learning about Bitcoin. Different avenues, but pretty
much the same time. And I my high school I was at,
there was this program called the Technology Innovation and
Entrepreneurship program. And to fulfill that program you
did it the whole years you were there.
You had to take certain courses. So I selected the innovation
strand and one of the courses was called Block Chain.
That was it. And so that was really when I
say I first learned about Bitcoin but purely learned it
just as distributed Ledger technology, supply chain use
cases. And I thought, OK, you know,
that's cool, but not for me. I'm really interested in AI and
AI ethics. And at the same time, my mom, I
think Greta was reading the MIT Tech Review and they had
something on blockchain. And so she was just, I think
we're both very curious. She was just learning, OK, you
know, what is this? We took the like Gary Gensler
Blockchain and Money MIT open course for her together.
Pretty good actually. I did it too.
Yeah. And so that was really at the
beginning and she definitely fell down the rabbit hole first.
But then we both went to the Oslo Freedom Forum and I think
it was like June 2022. And that is the moment for me
where I say I really feel like I discovered Bitcoin, appreciated
Bitcoin. And on the plane ride back was
really like when I started going down the rabbit hole.
When I got back read the US budget, it was just like what is
going on in this world. So we had separate but together
paths and now it's you know such a gift to be able to talk about
this with her and be in community with other bitcoiners
as well. Yeah, So what were the elements
of Bitcoin that made-up your aha moment?
What made it click? Yes.
So it's a lot. I think it's a lot of different
things building up on it there. So OK, I mentioned like the
blockchain course also freedom forum, just it's it's really
embarrassing to admit, but I had no I had such immense financial
privilege, I did not really know the concept of what that you
could just be debanked or you know how money can really be a
tool to take away the rights of humans.
And so that was a huge one. And it also taken a course on
creativity and you know, to study a creator and just think
about, you know, think about things differently and you know,
what could be next. Ask questions.
Don't just take established truths.
And so I've had all these little touch points.
And then the more you learn about Bitcoin and you learn
about it as a tool, you know, privacy, protecting freedom,
technology, you learn about proof of work.
But that's how our society works.
Like, I'm not going to graduate from college because of proof of
stake, You know, I have to go do my work.
Low time preference, delayed gratification, all of that
really just it's like, yes, this makes sense.
This money system that we had before, none of that makes sense
like Bitcoin does. And there were some, you know,
logical tidbits that you learn. Of course that's obvious.
So many things all contributing. So I can imagine that maybe also
because you are younger, like there are just some things that
you just find very logical about Bitcoin, you know?
Like why? Why would a money system work?
You know any way else? Yeah.
Are there some things that you can elaborate on?
I mean, what I love about, you know, doing the podcast also.
So again, I talked with your mom.
I talked with, you know, fellow millennials, but also to some
boomers, right? Like everyone has something that
they have to kind of change, right?
Like things they thought were true or that they believed in a
certain way, or a world view, right?
And I feel like the younger you get, the more logical Bitcoin
sounds, but you were the perfect person to ask so.
Yeah, I could say I have a couple different things and
analogies I always find super helpful.
So I kind of framed them in that sense.
The first one being, you know, when you're little, I don't know
if maybe you'd did this too but you have like a Piggy Bank for
your allowance. If you know your chores, maybe
you get a small allowance. And so just the concept of when
you're so young, well you're custodying your wealth you're,
you know, the little little, but you're taking on the
responsibility of custodying your economic energy, your time,
your wealth. And then I remember being so
excited when I was, I don't know, 1314, whatever.
And I was old enough to go and get a bank account.
Why was I so excited to just hand over all of my.
Well, that's one. I think the idea of owning the
same slice of something for forever, like there's 21 million
Bitcoin, whatever how many SAT's you have, you know, you will
always have that percent of the 21 million.
And then the idea, this is kind of another analogy, but and I
can't take credit for it, but we have a standard measure of time
in the world. And so if money is supposed to
be how we can express our preferences and value and we
have no standard unit of measurement per value.
So to kind of unpack that a little bit, if you know you have
60 seconds in your minute, I have 60 seconds in my minute.
And if our, if we didn't have that, our world would be so
chaotic it would be hard to get anything done.
But that's the reality And money.
There's, you know, 180 different Fiat currencies.
You know what a precise number is.
We have no standard unit of measurement for value and that
creates a lot of friction and you'll, you know, add in
exchange rates and that the currencies themselves are
changing. And so, you know, Bitcoin is
just this neutral, you know, overture of preference and value
that's accessible to all 8 billion people equitably, just
yes and. I love these two things like
especially last one I think is great, let's touch upon that.
But but the first one like giving money to the bank, you
know it's it's a great example. I'm going to, I'm going to keep
this in mind because this is the thing, right.
Like I talk a lot about you know if, if, if you know how the
banking system works, right. So that takes some, some
studying, right? It's just so fascinating that
you basically like outsource your own responsibility over
your own life, right? You outsource the responsibility
over your own life to an organization also just made-up
of individual people that you couldn't name and that don't
care that you know I'm me and you are you.
And you know that Piggy Bank is something you hold on to for
dear life when you're younger. And my, my 6 year old son also
has like this little wallet with his money.
And you know, that's like really his thing.
Sometimes he asks me where's my money?
And then I say, well it's it's here in the drawer, right.
And like how do we get to a point where we just give it
away? This is pretty astonishing.
To do it. I'm so excited.
Also, yeah, that's wild, But did they give you like a promotion
offer? Like, did they give you
something? No, it wasn't.
It wasn't like a credit card or anything.
It was just like. I don't know.
I was like, I I remember I went to the bank and like, I'd take,
like when I would scoop ice cream and I'd go and I'd get the
the little piece of paper that then you can roll the coins up,
you know, like from pips. And I'm just like, oh, this is
so fun. And I'm, I don't know why I
really enjoyed doing this, but I was like OK, I'm going to roll
up my quarters, my pennies and then I'm going to go deposit in
the bank. And I, I don't know, I think
it's just something like well this is the default of how
society works and we're excited to participate and feel like a
grown up and adult. I don't know, I was probably
more that. Than promotional.
Yeah, it's interesting because in my country there's like these
children accounts, right. And they do like promotions.
You get like a little a little cash register for at home or
like something with soccer or I don't know.
But now that you mentioned this like I I, yeah, it's so
interesting that you know, nobody really asked the question
what is money or how does a bank work etcetera, because it's like
this. How do you say this?
Like it's, it's, it's it's like a construct in a sense, right?
Like this is what you do or something, but you never
question it. I think this is also one of the
things why when you're older it's and it and then you
discover Bitcoin and how banking works and all these things like
it's just way harder to accept that you were kind of like lured
into this unconsciously like without knowing how it how it
works. Yeah fascinating.
So how, how do you, Well, maybe back to like also your peers
like do do they think about this like do they do they understand
that the banking system is not designed to work for for you as
an individual? So I would have probably had a
different answer up until yesterday morning.
I think like I think on the whole, people don't realize, you
know, the intricacies of the banking system.
I certainly don't know all of the intricacies of the banking
system, but I was sitting in a class yesterday and it's a kind
of like a network. See algorithms, market, auction
class and they were talking about bonds and anyways they
brought up the Fed reserve rate and I can't remember exactly the
framing of it, but one guy raised his hand and he was like
well how is this impacted given that during COVID the reserve
rate went from you know whatever 10% to 0% and they haven't you
know, brought it back since COVID.
How does this change? And so I didn't really think
many of the people were thinking about that besides me before.
And then I also add, so as you mentioned, this semester I
started the Cornell, the Coin Club.
And I, you know, when I set out to do it, I was like, you know,
this is worthwhile to do if it's just me and one other person,
you know, you have to have 10. So I I knew I had ten people to
do this with, but now we have 65 people on the mailing list.
And so I think I'm consistently, really pleasantly surprised and
grateful. How many people you know are
beginning to think about money and about systems that exist
outside of the phone system? Yeah, wow.
That's super hopeful to hear, actually.
And This is why I just, I'm optimistic and I think it's more
productive to be optimistic and not just, you know, sit back and
someone else will fix it and just know like whatever, whoever
you are, whatever you know you want to do, like you can
contribute. And I think that's really
empowering. Yeah, so the other thing you
mentioned, the standard measure of value.
For me, that's also, it's such a logical thing, right?
Because it should exist that that would actually enable
global trade, right? But the fact that it doesn't
exist, how many Fiat currencies are there?
You said 100. It's.
Like 180? That is, that is like a war by
itself, right? Just the currency wars against
each other. Like if my currencies in my
country is stronger than in your country, like I can persuade
people to adopt my currency and then I undermine yours and then
I slowly take over your trade, right.
Stuff like this sounds so simple.
Obviously it's it's very complex because we live in a world where
this is like going on, right? But the standard measure of
value, yeah, just makes so much sense, right?
Because it it also shouldn't really matter, you know, it
practically it doesn't work like this.
But you know, if I need someone to do something for me, whether
they are from my country or your country or Nigeria or Italy,
shouldn't really matter, right? So even if they would come over
and provide the service or or give or or build a product for
me, we should be able to award people in the same in the same
way all over the world. And yeah, we have a measure for
time, we have a measure for for distance.
Although in America that's also. Different I.
Don't know why, but the the the standard measure for value, it
makes so much sense Sense because at the roots it's just
energy expenditure, right from whoever creates a product or a
service, its energy expenditure in a certain amount of time, and
that's the same for everyone. So why?
Why is the rewards difference? Yeah, that's a great one.
I'm going to, I'm going to read up on that more because perhaps
we should start, we should start like a petition, we should start
something to create a standard measure of value.
But this angle of of Bitcoin I think is really interesting,
right? Because I think also because
people have these conceptions or beliefs about money or banking
or value or wealth or all these things, right.
I think that's why it's also very hard to well, actually
understand Bitcoin, because you have all these different
dimensions and, well, things you have to challenge personally
before you understand it. But if we talk about the
standard measure of value without mentioning Bitcoin, it
could be a nice explanation for eventually we would mention
Bitcoin obviously, but I think it would be like a good angle
for for a conversation starter, right.
I think I saw a tweet today by I think it's bit wise, CEO.
Is that Matt Hogan? No.
I think so, yeah. I.
Think I was Hunter and he talks about, you know, the comparison
to calling Bitcoin digital gold is kind of undermining what
Bitcoin actually is, right? It's it's illustrating it
because people can kind of relate to it, but at the same
time it's also undermining it a bit.
Yeah, I think I saw that as well.
And then in the comments or maybe that was in it, it was
like, well, you know people don't use gold that much.
Like it was like if you're saying, oh, it's just did evil
gold. Well then, if I remembering
someone, yeah, basically. Like, you're kind of short what
we could be. Well, it's.
It's only if you take certain types of properties from
Bitcoin, right? But I I replied below it like,
it is time. And then I mentioned a clip from
the presentation of Michael Saylor this week where he talks
about this, right? Like, it is not gold, It's not a
commodity. It's it's engineered scarcity.
And the only thing that is scarce, real, really scarce.
There's one thing, and that is time, right?
And there's multiple people that talk about Bitcoin this time,
right? Like GG has articles.
Well, and so, you know, if you, if you walk that path, then you
would end up at, you know, well, if we have a measurement for
time, then Bitcoin could be the measurement for value, right?
So yeah, I love that. I love that angle.
So how how has Bitcoin changed your world for you?
I mean, well, you went to the Oslov Freedom Forum 222 years
ago or 18 months ago. Like, was that one of those?
Well, you shared it was one of those moments.
But like how? How do you look at the world?
You have this optimistic outlook, but what is your view
of the world? Well, I think I've also been
very fortunate in that I am learning about Bitcoin so early
and that's why, you know another reason why I really think it's
important that people my age younger just learn about Bitcoin
Now. There's a, I've noticed there's
a tendency to just push off kind of thinking about money or, you
know, I don't have time for that just because of it's like we
can't get out of the system that just does everything to keep us
in it. And so I feel very grateful to
have learned about Bitcoin now and it being really formative in
my world view or enhancing my world view.
You know, I had wonderful parents who I think really did a
good job of, you know, teaching me about the world and how to in
the world. But learning about Bitcoin and
Bitcoin is money and the concept that money is a tool to shape
reality and the the reality we live in is one that has a lot of
greed and dishonesty. And then Bitcoin presenting
itself as OK, well, this is something that we could a tool
we can use to build a more honest future, a more honest
reality. So that's, you know, one shape
of my world view. And then I think just on the
like stepping back a little bit, it's really empowering to be a
part of something so much bigger than yourself and something that
encourages you to think for yourself and where it's a norm
to, you know, don't trust, verify, do your proof of work
first principles thinking. And so it's almost like you
know, Bitcoin shapes my world view or helps shape it.
But also it's at the same time telling me, you know, you go
shape your world for you, you go make a decision of an opinion.
And so that's an aspect that I appreciate.
And another thing I try to share with friends.
And yeah, so I think one final point I heard on a podcast a
couple of months ago now, and they basically just said, you
know, if you have life, you have purpose, go find it.
And so for me, I feel really grateful to have found Bitcoin
and to be able to put my time and energy into this system.
And something else I taught my friends though is but that you
don't have to choose to do that. Like Bitcoin can just be money
for you that allows you to save and then have the ability to
choose and think and acts in a way that aligns with your
values. So I guess they put a bow on it
like it's shaped my world view and also taught me how to shape
my world view for myself. I love that.
I wish I would have that. I had that when I was 21.
But I think that's great, right? Like, I, I, I, I love hearing
this because for me, this is also, I think, what strengthens
my positive outlook for the future, right?
Like the fact that you can find your purpose at such a young
age, that's amazing. Like, I love that you're sharing
that, right? I had had a conversation on on
another podcast with with Luke Broyles about like trying to
contribute to Bitcoin as you mentioned.
Also, you know, in whatever way, I mean, I just started another
podcast. You.
Know. Oh my gosh.
But no, I mean this one right? Like.
Another Another. I thought you were starting
another podcast. I was like.
Oh gosh. But like the the act of sharing
is already the inspiration, I think, right?
And it doesn't really matter what, what you do.
Once you see that, you know Bitcoin is something that could
really change the world, then it doesn't really matter how you
can contribute, right. And even you know what you say
to your friends, I think, right? Like if they adopt it as their
money or their way of of saving their wealth or building their
wealth towards the future, they are also contributing to to
Bitcoin, right? Because they are, they're going
to be users of it. So yeah, I love that explanation
because it's just it, it doesn't really matter where you come
from or what you do, like you can contribute in any way.
And that also ties into I think some of the dimensions of
Bitcoin, right, like the permissionless aspect or the
trustless aspect or the apolitical, a religious, all
these things like it doesn't matter who you are and where you
come from, like anyone can can contribute to this.
And So what you said about the honesty points, I really like
that too, right? Because I think Bitcoin forces
transparency, so it forces you to add value.
And if you don't add enough value and people don't want to
share their Bitcoin with you, then you should just go and do
something else, right? Like, I think it's actually the
perfect maybe cure for capitalism in the sense that it
would really work, right? Like if you are better at baking
cakes than I am, then you know I'm going to do something else
and you win. And that's all good.
Yeah. So I think, I think that's a
really, that's a really nice point.
So if we move on to what you're doing at Cornell, you are
studying Bitcoin. How did you manage to get that
through at at a top university like Cornell?
How did How did that go? So it was a long process, I
guess to over an overview. It took about 15 months to do
and so I had spent my for some contacts.
I spent my junior year of high school in Beijing until COVID
broke out and we all had to go home.
But I really wanted to go back after that happened.
And so I spent my freshman year at NYU Shanghai, although that
was all remote because again, but because I did not get into
Cordell initially, I received the transfer offer.
So it was, you know, you can come as a sophomore, but I was a
freshman. And so it was during, you know,
that time that I was really down the like AI ethics was really
interested in Chinese and the characters.
And that's a whole other topic that I say, you know, all that
just has spending a lot of time at home, not on a campus.
In that freshman year, I was able to think about Bitcoin and
learn more about it. And then I went to the Oslo
Freedom Forum that summer, right before I was going to Cornell.
And then I got to Cornell and learned the thing that I had an
independent major program. I was like, I have to do
Bitcoin. I have to figure out how to
study this. And so I started it, you know, I
think September, October, right when I got there and I didn't,
it wasn't much success. It's a lot of, you know, we
don't think it's a good idea for you to study something that's
1415 years old that we think you could really benefit from an
established curriculum. How about you study the gold
standard block chains, the true innovation, not Bitcoin here.
And I just kept persisting. I just took all the noses.
Not yet. And it's just because you know,
once you're once you see Bitcoin because people say you can't
Unsee it. I was like, this is not
something that I am willing to give up trying to say that.
I think it's important that I spend my time doing this.
So anyways, I spent the whole year doing that.
I couldn't ever quite find a faculty to also serve as a
sponsor for that major. And then circle around to the
beginning of this year, I received a new academic advisor,
and she graduated from Cornell. She's an alumna, and she did
this program called the College Scholar Program.
Now it's the Robert S Harrison College Program.
And she was telling me about it and I was like, Oh my gosh, you
know, I know I'm a year late and applying, but is there any way I
can apply? I've been trying to do this
independent major. I can't seem to get, you know,
much traction on it. And she was like, I don't, I
don't know anyways, so let me apply exams of December and then
it was approved in January. So this program, it's a little
bit more supportive or maybe more established in the
independent major program was. So I'm a big believer in things
always work out. So right now I'm working on
putting together my committee or kind of my board for my oral
defense that I'll do next spring for the thesis that I'll write
next year. And there's, you know, a couple
classes that you take, and you're in a cohort.
So there's about 60 people on campus all doing different
things. And it's like, it's so
energizing and hopeful for me because I, you know, go to that
seminar and I hear people talking about their ideas that
like, are so interesting. It's like this is what education
is supposed to be like. This is what sound money allows
us to do. It's just go be curious, think
differently. So anyways, my thesis right now,
the title is kind of what my daughter handled, showing that
the 21 million Bitcoin are tools for the 21st century.
And I right now have haunted down to look at the economic
energy and linguistics components or to kind of prove
that thesis from those angles. So yes, that will really all
kick off next year. And then I have a couple other
like minors majors, but I I get to choose all my courses and
it's really just your intellectual freedom.
Amazing. Amazing.
So what is the linguistics aspect there?
Yes. And so this is the worst that I
am. This is the one that I'm worst
at saying concisely for this because I'm still like going
through this all in my head. So let me try it.
And I was hope I could not sleep last night because I was
sleeping OK. But essentially, you know, if
money is how we express our preferences and values and
language. I took a class previously and it
introduced the idea of the language game and how just like
you and I right now we're playing a language game, you
know, can I understand your meaning, Can you understand
mine? And if we both can, then we've
won. But if you think of just like a
water bottle, like the bottleneck, it's really hard to
get all the meaning that I want to share to you through that and
vice versa. So there's different tools and
strategies that we enact. But the point is that, you know,
then once you think about people who speak different language,
it's just it's hard just in spoken language to communicate
our preferences. And so I when I start, I took
that class, I started thinking about Bitcoin and well, OK,
Bitcoin is this language in a sense, that allows us to
communicate with people worldwide and say, you know, I
value your, your energy and who you are, what you do in a way
that we've never really been able to before.
And so that's kind of one thought process of this.
Another is just, you know, code being speech.
Language is power. You know, money is power.
Transactions. You have the Linguistics
component. And then the part I was thinking
about last night, it's still like very rough, but just how
words are a little bit like a safe and you can see a word, you
can see it, but you don't always know the meaning.
Like it takes a lot of you have to, you know, spend time to
unlock that meaning. And so I was just thinking about
like Bitcoin as a word. Yeah, a peer-to-peer electronic
cash system. There's so much in all of that
that the more time you spend learning, you actually
appreciate like the first time I heard electronic cash system, I
had no idea the benefits of cash of what you get when something's
electronic. So anyways that was a little bit
jumbled but I think you know I'll I'll flush it out but I I
lost anything about this and we'll maybe I'll yeah maybe.
Well, for the for the first, for the first.
For the first part. I'm thinking about what you said
about my I don't know who said this.
I feel well, someone in Bitcoin maybe breathe, laugh probably.
But like the money is a is a is also, it's a tool for
communication also, right? Like as you said, the value
exchange is I communicate to you, I can do XYZ for you or I
can you know build or give you products ABC whatever I created
right? And so I communicate what value
I can bring to you, right? And my job is that to do that to
the best of my ability which basically starts with you know
Ella, I understand the problem you have and therefore this is
my solution, right? And then when you are accepting
that, that is when we basically shake hands and do this value
exchange, right. And so I think that is a a very
clear form of communication, right.
But then the technology we use to actually exchange the value,
right? On one side, it's me expending
my energy in a time to do the thing that I give to you, right?
And on the other hand other side, it's you using well Fiat
money to basically communicate back.
You know this is the value you delivered to me packaged in you
know, the money, the money that we use.
But because that money is corrupted, our communication
gets corrupted. Maybe not at the moment when we
shake hands and do the exchange right because at that, you know
that moment in the now, now you know at that moment that we
shake hands, it's it's equal. But after that, the, the reward
that I got starts to deteriorate in value, right.
And so therefore, at the moment of us communicating, our
exchange got corrupted because well, basically an external
technology. Well, that corrupted it, right?
And so when you mention this, I think about Bitcoin is actually
a tool that enables us to keep that that value that we
exchange, right. I give you a product or a
service and you give me the reward in return and it's and
that stays equal, you know, so it it's, it solves the that
corrupted communication. Well, that's kind of what I
thought about. No, I love that.
Yeah. So this is, that's probably the
section that I am most interested in and the one that I
am worst at expressing it. Now if I don't write about
something, I'm like, we're going to, yes, I can't express it, but
I I think it's fascinating to think about it.
Yeah, Well, I think this is part of the paradigm shift because if
we can have equal exchanges all the time with anyone anywhere in
the world, that's going to be a very positive game instead of a
0 sum game, right? That's field enables.
So, yeah, to me, that's part of the paradigm in a sense like
that. That just shifts everything to a
more positive world in a sense. All right, nice.
So tell me about the Bitcoin Students Network, how that is
going and how anyone listening who is a student or not, I don't
know, can contribute to the network and and the nonprofit
you're building. Yes, well, anyone can
contribute, not just students. So we launched the Bitcoin
Students Network in March of this year and the Students
Network is an initiative of Generation Bitcoin, which is a
nonprofit focused on providing, you know, education and job
opportunities for as the name with success.
I suggest Generation Bitcoin kind of the younger generations
and I did not found that our Shamalu who works at the Human
Rights Foundation and Shawna Mizra who's the youngest bicker
and Core contributor and Autumn Domingo who is a freshman in
college and she signed a lot of Bitcoin UI UX work.
They started it a couple years ago and then I joined them a
couple years ago as well and Arsh and I Co founded the
Bitcoin Students Network this year and it has this really the
same missions but a little bit more targeted of an audience and
so it's about the 18 to 22 year old range.
You don't necessarily have to be a student in a university, but
it is the mission there is how do we grow and scale Bitcoin
clubs? And so there's kind of three
different verticals of resources that we're putting together.
So logistics, how do you start a Bitcoin club?
What should you think about what are best practices, educational?
It can. It's really time consuming to,
you know, run a meeting. And so we're building out a kind
of repository of workshops And then financial at some
universities give budgets to clubs, others don't.
So we don't want that to be a hindrance.
Also help students get to conferences or, you know, buy a
book of something of that nature.
And then another really huge piece that we're working on is
the jobs front, because it's hard to say, you know, yes, I
will spend my time thinking about Bitcoin or you know this.
If if you don't see any path for you to contribute or work on in
the future, especially if you're in university where you're just
so focused on, OK, well, what am I going to do to get my summer
internship or whatever. Just having the jobs is a way to
just build a more sustainable investigation and interest in
Bitcoin. So right now we have about, we
have kind of nodes in this network in about 20-6 different
countries. So it's it's worldwide.
It's not just the US We have an incredible board of advisors.
There's twelve of them across various different teams to help
kind of support our mission. And yes, if you are a student,
please be in touch. We'd love to support you even if
you're just one person you know right now and you're interested
in starting a Bitcoin club. We like there's been fun stories
of like multiple people from the same university filling out our
interest form and then you know, kind of connect with them.
Also, if you are an individual, you know, maybe you can go
volunteer to give an hour lesson at your local university.
Or if you're a company and you'd like to take on some interns or
do a workshop or a panel, really anything you can contribute is
most appreciative and need people's grateful to channel.
Awesome. I will make sure to link to
everything in the in the show notes so people can check it
out. And well, hopefully some people
are listening that could contribute if I I don't know if
you're already in the Netherlands, but as mentioned
before, I will definitely try to help you and.
Connect. With some universities here.
So let's see if we can, if we can make that work.
All right. So what advice would you give
someone who is just starting to explore Bitcoin?
You know, we mentioned the different dimensions that you
know Bitcoin has. So you know it's it's I would
say it's pretty daunting to get started but what would be your
advice to? Start just, you know.
Think about what are you, just what are you interested in Like,
I don't know, maybe it's like gardening and then you're
interested in the kind of the regenerative agriculture topic
of Bitcoin. There's so much in this space.
So I would say just start. If you look if you have a meet
up, I think the community of Bitcoin is it's really special.
And I promise if you just go to a meet up people will be so glad
to meet and talk with you. And yeah, I mean I think really
just start, you know listen to podcasts like yours.
And then I'd also just to kind of give a framework you've
probably seen kind of like the the graph where it's like I know
nothing on the like the left side of the graph and then the
middle. You're like, I'm so smart.
I know everything. And then and time is on like the
X axis, I think. And then on the right you're
back to I know nothing. Most days.
I feel like I know so little, but I take that as a gift
privilege to just have something that makes me curious and
teaches me. So just, you know, people that
have been thinking about this for, you know, four years, 10
years sometimes also feel like they know nothing.
So focus on what you're interested in.
Go find, you know, local bitcoiners.
And yeah, there's, you know, just just start.
It's a good point about feeling. I I know nothing.
I had the same when I watched this clip I just mentioned from
Sailor, you know, or that presentation.
It's again, I thought, you know, after 10 years, I know my stuff,
but you know, I have my mind blown every week.
I think still, but that's also the fun part, right?
I think, you know, when you start, there's so much content.
There's so many different voices from different backgrounds
talking also about all these different dimensions, right?
So there is already so much for you to to explore.
And yeah, once you realize that you know how we communicate
value with each other is probably the roots of everything
you would want to fix in the world that you don't like, you
know, of which you don't like how it is right now, then the
rabbit hole is probably endless in that way, right.
Like the how we communicate value with each other is where
all the problems come from. And if we fix that, we really
fix the world. Right.
So I think yeah, it's a it's a it's.
Well, perhaps it's less daunting.
I think it's just more more daunting because there is so
much content, right. But it's just like it doesn't
maybe the the your answer is best.
Like it just start and it doesn't matter where you start
because you will find these other dimensions.
Exactly. And I I also saw a bit black
boom. A couple weeks ago Don BAE gave
a good strategy that he does when he's beyond boarding new
groups and they do an exercise like in warehouse or wherever
and they put like $1.00 into Bitcoin $2.00 and just like low
stakes exercises. And this is, you know, I always
tell people you know my intent is not for you to go buy
Bitcoin. My intent is just for you to
think about this and so but they just use like, OK, it's it's
$2.00 like who cares if we mess this up?
Who cares? It's like you know this is turns
wrong. It's just like just start small
and you know it's also you don't need to have some big
expectation that bitcoin's going to take over your life or that
you're going to have to spend all your time doing this.
Like it can just be money. It can just be a vessel for you
to save your energy for generations and that's it.
So it's just. Yeah, I agree.
And probably once you start you will find the rabbit hole if
you. Pay what's your What's your you?
Spend enough time and then you will think about it every day.
But yeah, so do you see Bitcoin as like technological discovery
or also as as kind of like a philosophy?
Oh, does it ever have to choose one for this?
No. Yeah.
I mean, yeah, I think it's, I definitely think it was a
discovery as opposed to an induction.
And I guess, well, maybe I might ask you more on the philosophy
side of things like I love the philosophical take on it.
I just read Resistance Money, you know, written by three
philosophers. And so I guess you know what is
how? How do you interpret Bitcoin
being philosophy? For me, it kind of ties into
the, the part that I just mentioned about, you know, the
and this is also what I learned along the way.
You know, the real free market is I find you or you find me And
we agree that we want to have an exchange of value, whatever it
is. And that should really be only
up to us, the fact that it is corrupted in a way that we don't
understand well 99.9% of the people don't understand that
unconsciously influences our life in the way that we well
spend our time, which is our most scarce asset, right.
And I think that is limiting us in, in what what we can do,
right. As I mentioned in the beginning,
like the the fact that we don't have the space again, that's
time for me to figure out, you know what am I here to
contribute. I find that a really big thing.
And it's funny because I only got there because I created the
time to think about, you know, why don't people have the time.
So it's it's, it's, it's interesting.
But I think once you can control your time, like really control
your time, that actually frees up your mind in a sense because
there's so many things in your mind that are there not because
you want to, but because there are third parties that create
certain environments that force you to put those things in your
head. Yeah.
So I think you're not really free, although, you know, we
live in free countries and you know, we have freedom of speech
and blah blah, but you're not really free.
There's still other people that influence your life and not in a
good way. And so, you know, once you
understand that you can adopt A tool that can help you be more
free, well then, yeah. For me that that is kind of like
the the philosophy part in that way that that you can actually
get there. Like there's a real chance that
you can get there instead of just hoping for it or, you know,
fantasizing about it in a way. Yeah, yeah.
I would agree and I think it goes back to what you said in
the beginning, that we tend to outsource our agency and
responsibility and Bitcoin allows you to reclaim that.
Yeah, so, well, maybe this is a good one because I wanted to ask
you what what is like an interesting Bitcoin tweet or
article? You know, just something I want
to introduce here in the podcast.
Like, I want to just gather content and then share it, you
know, with people listening. But like what's?
What's an interesting tweet, article, podcast or video that
you've come across that that you love to share?
Yes. So yeah, So I think, well,
Natalie Smolinski, I just hugely, you know, look up to
respect her. And she had a tweet the other
day and it was basically just about the importance of
maintaining integrity. Like the road ahead of us.
It's going to be hard. It will.
I might now be extrapolating, but it will be long.
Like, it won't be easy, but we really have to make sure that we
are acting with integrity and staying true to sound values and
not getting caught up in ego or high time preference.
And I just, yeah, it really resonated with me earlier.
At the end of last year, I kind of saw something in my, my, you
know, immediate world where there, you know, a lack of
integrity or, you know, where identity and expediency really
had a bad impact. And so I just read this and it
just resonated. Yeah, so you send me the link,
I'll look it. Up.
Oh yeah, I can. I can if you have it.
I'll read it. Yeah, I got it.
So, she says. Things are dark and they're
going to get much darker. Our moral and intellectual North
Star must remain functioning from principle instead of
identity and expediency. Thinking and acting from
principles. Revolutionary, it transforms the
world. Cheers to all fellow travellers
on the road ahead. Yeah, I, I.
For me it ties a bit into to what?
Well what what I just said like the once you can and I don't
know how it works but I think once you adopt Bitcoin you adopt
I think a certain trust in yourself that you.
Well, yeah. That you can trust yourself and
you know your own moral compass and that you are right to a
degree. You know that that that you set
out on a certain path and that that's OK and that you see what
can be as a like what can be there as a reward of following
that path, right. And then it doesn't really
matter. You know what the obstacles are
that you, that you come across because you know that you are on
your on your path in a sense. So I love that you shared that,
Yeah. Yeah.
And I think, you know, the future is just inherently
uncertain. And I've realized that a tool or
a framework to think about, well, how do you handle
uncertainty is just what type of person do I want to be, What
type of values do I want to embody?
And when I learned about Bitcoin and the the values we've spoken
about, you know, it embodies the values that I want to express on
my best day. And so, you know, that's a
system that I want to put my energy into.
And then I think, you know, as she kind of mentioned, this is
my interpretation as well. But we can't define all the
steps ahead of time of what will get us to the right destination
or how we should be moral. And that's different for
everyone. But I think, you know, Bitcoin,
just how it was constructed, the values it leaves us with as you
were speaking at, it helps us get to the right destination.
Like if we just kind of, you know, put our time into it and,
you know, try to act with the best and the most, you know,
integrity, then we'll we'll end up where we're supposed to be.
And so, yeah, I just, I read that and it really resonated.
It's funny because now that you say this, I think about the
proof of work due to work, and you can only do the work if you
really integrate where you're going, right?
Like if, if you anchor to that point on the horizon where
you're going, then you are also motivated to do the work.
Exactly. Yeah.
So to end our conversation, I will ask you what I ask everyone
at the end and that's what is a core belief you will never let
go. Yeah, mine's really short.
Community is everything. Can you elaborate a bit?
Sure. I think it's just, you know,
your community, small or large. It's.
And I think, you know, I I've learned to a certain extent what
it's like to lose community, gain community, you know, be a
good community member. I somehow I I went to, I think,
7 different schools in eight years.
And so I was moving all the time and, you know, rebuilding
community and finding your people again.
And I also grew up and I never really had social media before
Twitter. And so I I, my mom taught me
this thing where you just reach out to two people you don't
normally speak to every week. And so as I'm going through
these seven different schools 8 years like you, you meet a lot
of different people. And those people just, I think,
you know, the idea of dots again, just the people you're
around, the people who are there for you, the people who you can
support and celebrate and cheer on, Like that's why we're here.
You know, that's just for me. What has felt centering or
grounding or just like especially with Bitcoin, like we
are here to support a mission that protects human flourishing
and individual, you know, sovereignty for all 8 billion
people. Like it embodies community as
everything and supporting our community members.
Love that great ending. Thank you so much for this
wonderful conversation. As mentioned, I will link to,
you know, Generation Bitcoin students network, your Twitter
so people can follow your journey and hopefully also
contribute to what you're building.
So thanks so much. We'll be in touch and say hi to
your mom. Eva, thank you so much for
having. Me.
Cheers. I hope you enjoyed this episode.
If you did, it would be amazing if you could rate, review and
subscribe on the podcast platform of your choice.
It will help us educate more millennials on the importance of
Bitcoin. You can follow and connect with
me on Twitter. I'm Bram K That's at BR AM K,
and if you are or know someone who has an interesting
perspective on Bitcoin that's worth sharing, hit me up.
I read and reply to every single message.
I appreciate your support and hope you'll be here for the next
episode. Thanks for listening.
Bye.