All right. Hey everyone, this is Bum
Konstein and you're listening to Bitcoin for Millennials.
Together with my guests on this podcast, I go on a journey to
discover how our current financial system works, why it's
flawed, and why Bitcoin is the most relevant technology that
you should understand and adopt. In this episode, I'm joined by
Michael Dunworth. He's the Co founder of Wire
Payments and the brother of Peter Dunworth, who was a guest
in my second episode. So check that out if if you
didn't yet. And in my opinion, you know,
Michael, you're one of the craziest and smartest brains
that I follow in this space. And so I'm really looking
forward to our conversation. I mean, you're into mathematics,
cryptography, thermodynamics all at the same time.
So I think this conversation will probably fry my brain, but
I'm super happy that you're here.
So thanks for coming. On too.
So let's get it going. Thanks so much for having me.
I really appreciate it. Thanks for coming on, man.
I love we just talked off Mike. Like, I love that when you talk
to other people who are into Bitcoin and who get it like you
just connect on a certain level despite your experience or
skills or personal other interests, and that's just super
fun. And you know what?
I reckon that this is gonna be like, Let's say Bitcoin does
what it's. What we think it can do, right,
which is, you know, become the biggest, the coolest, the
whateverest thing in the world, like everyone is gonna go
through. You know, we talked about these
transformations that the mind goes through as you start
observing Bitcoin more and more in its behaviour.
And it's like the it's like when you stare in like staring into
the orb or the abyss, it starts staring back at you almost and
you start picking up its identity.
In a way I feel like because like.
If you praise your money and you love, like if we've been
conditioned to love money and need money and only want to get
money and all that, well, if a really damn good money comes
along, we can't break it. We didn't make it.
So we're probably going to start worshipping it.
Like that's basically what happens with the sun.
Like we worship the sun because it's a really big energy thing
that we can't control. So because we can't control it,
every person from ancient Egyptians to everyone, we all
worship the sun now. Now we have a modern day version
of worshipping it which is called oh you know, stare at the
Sun, you got Andrew Huberman and all the podcasts about.
How healthy sunlight is. You know you've got sunlight is
now not considered, you know, a vitamin.
It's considered a hormone almost because it's like we're thinking
sunlight is so astronomically good for us so our understanding
of everything is changing. But but I I find like Bitcoin
will do it changes us because the highest energy source of
anything. It's like we subconsciously as
humans, right. If you walk past a really tall
building, you go whoa. You think your brain said, hey
look up and look at that. No, no, no, that's what's
happening. Your brain is the gravity of
that building is pulling your head towards it.
True story. In the same way, when we when we
see energy being displaced, our our senses are there to pick
that up as a defence mechanism and as an intelligence
mechanism. So our our mind and the sun is
the ultimate source of of energy for life then?
Right. It's absolutely it's that we
cannot nothing happens here unless that guy still wakes up
for work. Kind of.
That guy. Meaning the same?
Exactly. So two things today I saw.
There's plans to spray shit in the air to block the sunlight
for climate change or whatever. I think we can both agree that's
the stupidest thing. Here's the.
Thing. You know what?
I've got a thing on climate change, right?
Hey, everyone's like climate change is bullshit.
And I'm like. No, it's not.
It is 100% real. But our understanding of why it
occurs is way off. I think like if you think of the
earth right, like every time we go, every Tesla car or whatever
it is, it's got to have cobalt and like that in it.
Cobalt is this big active ingredient that we're trying to
get away from because it's the core of all the lithium ion
batteries. You've got little 4 year olds
mining in the Congo and all that $5 a year, like all that shit.
It's horrible. That's the source of.
Renewable battery power for the most part.
And so that's not renewable. That's like a subsidy from the
earth. Like if you think about it,
because we need, it's not indefinite, like it's not a
solution. So we think about that.
It's like it will run out and so now we'd like electricity and
stuff. We're sort of, when we're
busting up if the Earth is a giant magnet flying through
space, right? Imagine the magnetic field
wrapping around it like a comet tail.
Mm hmm. If you're busting up that
magnet, like imagine I gave you a handheld pool ball that's that
big and it's a magnet, and then you start whacking it with a
hammer and little ching Ting Ting, its magnetic field will
change. You know, like you can know that
like if I had two broken magnets, it's going to have a
different magnetic field. So our Earth is like this ball
and we're busting the crust up, which changes the magnetic
composition of this metal ball. And I think that would be
something that fucks with the weather because the weather is
responsible. The weather is a product of the
magnetic field of the Earth. So I would have thought that
that was a thing. But either way, I think it's
mindful for like we need to be mindful like, you know.
Everything changed. Like when we make subtle changes
in in our in our ecosystems, it has astronomically wild effects.
So you know, we've we've seen things where it's like you take
one small bug out of a ecosystem, Yeah, yeah, whole
ecosystem collapses in like 5 years and you don't.
Or I didn't realize that this dude ate him, and then on
weekends the other bugs ate him and you know.
Just understanding the broad strokes of the system first
before we kind of jump into anything.
And that's why I think, like the whole climate change thing right
now, it just looks like noise to print, like, to print more
money. Like what I find fascinating is
that literally what you just said, Like everything is
connected. It's so intricate, right?
There is roots from the Amazon when mixed together they work on
receptors in our body and like original penicillin came from
fungi or mycelium and stuff, stuff like that and and then
maybe that's a nice leeway Segway into money.
I feel that because well at least talking for the western
world, right, because we have quote UN quote money and we are
quote, UN quote rich, we can change and do anything.
I feel like that is you know like the the way that people
started operating and therefore even though currently you know
the money is broken as as as we both think and of course is what
we talked about here on the on the podcast.
We still believe that. We still think that we can
change nature or how nature works and with all the
intricacies that we can change that with our broken
manufactured money, like it's so spiritually.
Flawed in a sense. It is so flawed.
Like it is so flawed. And let me just say something
like it's yeah, our money is is so broken.
Like it's just. It's so unnatural.
That's it. It's unnatural.
It's made made-up and. I don't blame anyone by the way,
because you've got to think if you met someone from 1985 today,
they would be like if a 50 year old man, the smartest 50 year
old man from 1985, showed up and spoke to a 15 year old today.
The 15 year old would probably have the same amount of
information that the guy in 1985 had.
Just information propagation is astronomically high.
So we know all the answers pretty quickly soon.
So you look at that, They constructed an old monetary
system. Look, they had a crack everyone.
Like we said before the podcast, no one asked to be born.
Everyone got born without choice.
So those guys came into a system and they built it up and to be
honest, that's the system that they won the game.
They winning the game, right? Like but.
I think it's important to think like, well, what can happen
after the game because money's not the end of it.
Money. You can't ever finish at money.
Like life doesn't finish at money, because we're an energy
field, so money's not even in the equation.
Money we only invented because we don't have infinite energy.
Money is a way to break down the finite amounts of energy that we
have on this planet and divvy them up by and create an
economy. So I think right now it's like
that money. It's the money is the tail
wagging the dog, meaning it's influencing everything else.
When everything else in your life should influence the money
you spend, it's actually the money is influencing everything
you're doing. Wise, yeah.
Because money. Money is hard.
Like money is like a video game and you've got to keep playing
it to. Basically, stay in the game and
unless you hit it out of the park really early, it's like
this perpetual motion machine. It feels like it's like why do,
why would I? It's like imagine you'd go and
buy a toaster and well, I don't know how to give it an example,
but it just sort of is like a hamster wheel.
It's like there's no disc. It talks about it off Mike like
how you are put in a box and you can only and in the box you have
to accumulate the money or something but and once you have
enough whatever is enough for anyone you can escape the box
and then you have the time to because maybe this is dramatic
but like really be yourself or you know as as.
We don't even being dramatic at all.
Absolutely think about every. Let's imagine that thoughts, you
know, thoughts create reality and stuff.
And every thought that I have produces an action that I'll do.
So let's add the every single thought up in my life of.
Doing anything. It's like, how many of those do
you think money had to be considered in that thought?
Oh, oh man, you'll come meet me and hang out or let's go on a
holiday or let's eat dinner or let's go there, anything.
And it's like, if you take it out and it's like, hey dude,
imagine having every single thought and money you didn't
have to think about. It's like, yeah, whoa.
It's like, oh, that's a great segue.
That's a great segue. To filter, You can watch
everything in life now. From a different lens and it's
like and so Bitcoin gives you that certainty of money.
It's almost like buying. Well, it removes the lens
actually. Power generator.
It feels like an unbreakable power generator in for my home,
which means I'm not going to have to think or worry about
will my home have power so you don't have a lens anymore?
There's no lens. There's no lens.
There's no lens because the layer on which you operate.
Yeah. Fair.
Yeah. And that little box, like when
we're talking about you being put in a box, it's like you come
out of, you know, your mum's vagina or whatever, and you go
straight into this box which says, hey, I need you paying
taxes, I need you getting smart, I need you figuring out how to
add value to this place of a planet.
And so you're kind of like the whole way that box, when you say
you will escape money if you have enough.
The problem is that box is only you're jumping out of this Money
Box, right? That you get put in that box is
only as high as you say it is. And most people don't even set a
definition on how high it is, which meant what I'm getting at
is the metaphor is sort of if you don't have a destination of
how much money you want to make or whatever, then you are never
going to finish making money. You're you're you're driving
around circles in the track and let me tell you, it's like
beyond money. Not that I know I'm, I'm going
to, you know, it's not like money's finished for me, but
Bitcoin finishes money for me because I can't.
I just can't see. How it doesn't do that for
everyone. So I'm sort of backing that.
I'm taking a leap of faith on that, obviously.
But in the same way it's like, you know, if you don't set the
goal of what is enough, then you won't ever have a goal, then you
won't ever have enough. So you know, comparison is the
thief of joy. Which means if I'm always
chasing, if my goal in life is to be better than that nemesis
that I've had then. I'm just going to keep, you
know, you buy, you buy the house, you buy the car, you do
this, you do that. And it's like you've been
comparing yourself to someone else.
It's like, no, no, no. Set a number on what's enough
for you and then go pursue all the other passions.
Money is like this weird cock block that's come into your life
at age 15 and now it's leaving. But I think that's really
important for people to have that reset moment.
I think it's even more important.
It's really actually quite sad is that nowadays in our life
it's like most people if you go up to them and say.
I can give you, let's say, 200. I'll solve money for you, $200
million. You get and you get 3-4 years,
$200 million. Your infinite amount of money.
Go do every single thing you need to do.
Oh, I need to do this. I need to, I need to fly to
Norway. I need to see the Northern
Lights, Antarctica. Tick every motherfucking box,
bro. Every single box.
Now. Now you are 40 years old.
You've had four years doing whatever you ticked.
Every box. The Earth still has 40 years
left for you. What are you going to get done
now? And now that is, that's when it
starts. You know Mark Twain, Great
quote. I think it's Mark Twain.
Two most important days of your life.
The day you're born and the day you find out why.
And it's sort of that's where you go when you, if you can,
finish money and get your mind to a place of creativity.
This isn't hogwash bullshit. Yeah, yeah, finger painting.
I mean like every person is a superhero.
Every single one of us. Like, not even like a oh, yeah,
they really. No, no, no.
Everyone has the Michael Jordan of something.
Everyone is the Michael Jordan of something or the Tiger Woods
of something, like. But the problem is when there's
so much noise in your life, because every decision is being,
you know, filtered by noise and ads and money and this pressure
and stress and cortisol levels and all this year.
You forget what your Michael Jordan can be.
You forget who you can be the Michael Jordan of or what you
can be the Michael Jordan because you have forgot your
dreams. And so I think it's important
like, you know, the best dreamers are the kids.
And so if we always think back like, well, who was I when I was
little? What did I like or why did I
like it? And you know, I've found heaps
of interesting stuff when I sort of did that journey myself when
I I was. I moved back during COVID.
I was just a bit wobbly. So like after moving back from
America, you know, I was trying to find sort of ways to
reorientate myself because I felt like I'd gotten lost
through COVID and through, you know, all this, just everything
going on in during the world. And I was like well, OK around
you know 14 or 15 couple of things start happening in your
life and things start sort of. Wiggling off the tracks, maybe.
So I was like, OK, well let's go before then.
What is the 10 year old dude like?
And it's like, oh how immature. It's like, fuck that immature.
Go suck my Dick. Like, not being rude, but it's
like, I want this is the dude I'm working for, bro.
Like the young kid that had dreams.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
You, you fucking spastic. And so you imagine your 10 year
old self and you're like, all right, what's this cat love?
Yeah, my 10 year old self really liked.
Like the water and like numbers and like video games.
Because there's something, you know, maybe that's my coping
mechanisms on stuff. Sure, it's fine.
But, you know, you get to explore that stuff and just sort
of come back with an adult lens, right?
So it's like you see gamers that come back after ages and they
play and it's like or you know, people that love to who are
passionate about maybe piano when they were little, and then
they come back and play it when they're older and they've got
more time to honor their craft. Or maybe they are a painter and
they, you know, they started working at Goldman Sachs 18
hours a day. And then they now have to.
Now they're the retired. They go back to painting.
You know, it's like they can go back to honor their gift in a
way. So I don't know, but I think the
world is Bitcoin is helping so many people slow down in their
thoughts. It's like, oh, there was so much
noise. I was chasing everything.
I was rushing to calendar meetings.
I was rushing to have more calendar meetings, and I was
rushing to get that promotion. I'm rushing to figure out the
next thing. I'm rushing here.
I'm rushing. And you've just compromised
every original thought that your brain could manifest during that
time. Because you're having, you're
having the thoughts of other people, not yourself, because
you're constantly being the entropy, like just the amount of
thought time. You're not thinking about your
own ship because you're not sitting in solitude by yourself.
If you think about solitude as solitude, is this really?
Sort of scary thing to us in this day and age, I think,
because we are yearning for connection and I think we're
yearning for connection even more because we have less
physical connection. So it's like we're getting a
small drug hit. By seeing each other, you know
on FaceTime that doesn't give the oomph of an electromagnetic
field. When I hug someone and now two
electromagnetic signatures connect.
Now we think very surface layer as a species, we thought, oh,
we've digitized face and voice and audio.
So that's basically the same as being there.
No, no, no, no, no. You haven't digitized any
magnetic field. You haven't digitized any of
that. The toroidal fields around us
that capture our energy and express our energy and stuff.
When you hug someone or whatever it is, you entangle those
signatures, the magnetic signatures, right?
I ain't getting any digital hugs on this thing.
You know what I mean? Yeah, I can send you a high five
emoji. You know, it's like, oh cool,
they send an emoji. It's like like like that changes
anything. So it's still an abstract of.
It's always. An abstract you know exactly.
While you're going through this, I'm thinking about what's the.
I think it's. I think it's Confucius.
Yeah, like the Every man has two lives, and the second starts
when he realizes he only has one.
Like that is what I'm thinking about around this like and it's
just and it's also that, yeah. Oh no.
I was just going to say, you know, a man never steps in the
same river twice. For it's not the same man and
it's not the same. It's not the same river.
Yeah, yeah, no, I love. And what I love is that I think
we have to realize that this happens to anyone.
But anyone has that that exact experience and you know to I
love how your mind works. So interesting like how if we go
back to Bitcoin like that that we just talked about there's all
this. So everyone has this journey
always. I think that's never ending,
right. But the fact that we are
influenced by these external factors that were made-up by
other people that also have this journey right away, yeah, it's
extra distraction on a journey that's already super hard in
general, right? Yes.
And before we dive deeper into the numbers and stuff like
what's when we when we talk about you know how Bitcoin
equalizes that and that that could be a base layer that we
can operate from so that the space in which we operate as
humans. Yeah.
That that we see that differently.
Like what was to go to go back to your Bitcoin journey.
What was your aha moment there? Because I also know that you
orange spilled your brother which is interesting, so it took
him a long time like how it's. Funny.
It's funny because he's so much smarter than at this stuff than
me, so once he got it. He kind of unpacked it to the
NTH degree, right? And so yeah, he really kind of,
you know what I mean? Like, he's really kind of done
his homework on everything, which I love because it's very
complimentary and I'm lucky to have that to dialogue the bounce
off. I think the biggest aha moment
for me was. From a security perspective, So
I used to run, you know, Bitcoin or used to run wire, which was
this, you know, an infrastructure provider and a
very, very big one. And one of the scariest things
was always, I learned from my team, was always about security,
not your keys, not your coin. So when you have people's assets
on hand, that is their livelihood.
So you don't think about oh, is it some dude that's just
deposited in whatever? Like if you give that person a
face and you feel the weight of the work, they might have worked
40 hours a week to save this money.
That's in that account that we're custodian.
Like you're responsible to keep their money safe and you're also
responsible to keep their identity safe.
So we're getting attacked from. For the KYC information and for
the money, they're both as valuable as each other.
Like KYC information is just as valuable as a private key to
someone, to someone, somewhere. So you have to treat them the
same. You can't sort of make them
mutually. So he's like, it's just the KYC
information that got leaked. It's like you don't know, like
that's none. That's not your call to make a
judgement, and you know, judgement like that, so but that
taught me a lot about security and my team.
I'm very fortunate. I worked with the best in the
world and security in my opinion, and they taught me that
you know, nothing matters unless you have security and that.
And that's not a that's not a loose statement.
That's a very definitive one, which means you don't have
anything unless it's secure, whether that is money in the
bank, whether that is a emotional relationship.
But we always think emotional security, financial security,
you know, all physical security, that is all what it comes down
to. And so for me, that was the aha
moment when I realized, well, hold on, Bitcoin is the most
secure thing though, then it has to be right?
Like because we can't break it. And then I'm like, Oh, well, if
it's only built on math, then it's got no dependencies really,
other than the ingredients that are used to build it.
So that's really good from a security standpoint.
It's not worse. Yeah.
You got to like, oh, it's only numbers.
It's not like, oh, there's a third party API to some, you
know, random provider. And so that's really
interesting. But yeah, if you have something,
the most secure thing in the world, I was like that How can I
use, like, how can I protect everyone using that thing?
Because no one can break that. And I was like, oh, and yeah, so
that just sent me down a rabbit hole and I was like, well, what
is the most secure piece of information in the world?
Like how do you what is the most secure?
Is it something cryptographic? This year I'm like, no, it can't
be And it ended up landing on time locks on Bitcoin that that
is the most secure thing on quite literally Earth.
And so there's no protocol that we have to break that.
We'll talk about your your article about that, but do you
ended up there, that's very interesting like because of
course, do you see how that journey comes together?
Well, I mean it's from your point of view, right.
And I think what is interesting that a lot of people have
different touch, touch points based on experience,
understanding, interest, time, you know whatever and then yeah,
well yeah, you get it or you don't and then you're interested
to continue or you don't And then if you are that, yeah, you
know like it's that's rabbit hole I think.
But I find it interesting that you say the the security, right?
Because that is the the the the trifecta of, well, the choice
you need to make. Make right There's a security,
speed, and decentralization. And Bitcoin, Bitcoin is designed
around more around the decentralization and the
security rather than the speed, right?
So everything that came after Bitcoin, which we call crypto,
right, is trying to compete on all that other stuff, the faster
shape. The faster shape?
Exactly. But that's why I find it's
interesting. Yeah, it's pointless.
If it's not secure, nothing matters.
And I've I have to deal with people that have got hundreds of
millions of dollars that are managing money for other
investors and they have to, they try and tell me that security is
a secondary consideration. I'm like.
Yeah, that's. No, that's not my fault.
You obviously don't understand how anything works.
So that's fine, OK? Like it's bonkers.
And so when you look at, if I can only have two, right, Let's
say this trilemma, which is security.
The trilemma. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
What is that is security? Is that trifecta?
Yeah. The trilemma, Yeah.
So what is it? Speed.
Decentralization.
Yeah. OK, so let's say you get to pick
three of those. You get you got to rank them,
right? Well, first, security, because
we can't have anything unless it's secure.
And now it goes well. Do I want speed or
decentralization now if I just have to make these choice.
This choice is a person in human human nature and I want to plan
for the long term. Is speed important to everyone
now or is decentralization more important?
And so I'd say decentralization is more important because it's a
newer property that we don't have.
We already have faster, cheaper, we have instant payments, but we
just do it on a centralized engine.
Faster ain't helping anyone. Faster is making me keep up with
this old world of fast-paced consumerism.
No, I don't want that. I want to stop and collect my
thoughts and walk in a patient manner.
Do you know what I mean? Like and the Bitcoin blockchain.
Because. You can't have to keep going,
basically. That's the point, right?
The point basically you think in like a more pragmatic, like a
longer term way almost where it's like, well, hold on, why
are you rushing? And it's like and you stop being
like, well, no, what is the rush?
10 minutes. Why?
Why am I so in a rush that 10 minutes is too long for me to
wait? And what value proper you bring
in me where it's not as secure, but you're saying it's faster,
it's like well that's. You're it's a bad trade off.
Actually, no, it's not a it's not a bad trade off.
It's a scientifically, factually statistically significant,
undeniable trade off. Which means it's not my opinion
this is as concrete as the sun rising.
Exactly, yeah. You never trade security for
anything. It is exactly uncompromisable.
So this is where people are gonna Start learning everything
really quickly, which is if you don't have security, you don't
have it. And now that means is the only
thing that matters is security. Because everything else that you
are looking at, thinking about, blah blah, blah, it will turn to
dust. It's ephemeral if you don't know
how to secure it or your thoughts aren't securing it.
So I just think security became the, the undeniable, you know,
granddaddy of everything. And it basically becomes the
only area of study that's almost necessary.
If you know security, then you don't need to know anything else
because everything always is led by security.
Every action is always led by security, whether it's hacking,
whether it's doing things, whether it's not doing things,
whether it's securing that everything comes back to
security. And so security is the, the
leading indicator of what happens with everything.
And so right now, that's why, you know, looking at numbers,
for example, prime numbers to me, I find I always thought,
what's the answer to this question?
An alien species comes down from the heavens and they say we need
you, we, we. Humanity gets to express one
thing to them that they would be able to probably understand or
hopefully understand. And also we can express how far
through technology we're like how advanced we are, right?
Let's so let's say this is super alien.
So they come to us and they say we're not going to be like, oh
look at this microwave. It heats up arbitrary shit that
we invented And yeah, they'd be like the fuck are you talking
about? They wouldn't say, oh show us a
boat. They'd be like, oh cool, a boat,
whatever the fuck you're floating on water plane where
they'd be like come on, like we need to see how far you guys are
ahead, not how many cool tools you've built relative to
yourselves. And the first, the only thing
that they would be able to resonate with, because the only
thing we know for certain that is also going to be in
perceivable by another species elsewhere, like in another part
of the universe, is numbers, because every species will have
to observe symmetry based on the way that the universe works.
So they always have numbers. And now because we know that,
well, what's the toolbox numbers And well, what's special about
numbers? Well, prime numbers are the most
special ones because prime numbers are the leading
indicator of technology. So whatever the biggest known
primes are, look at the technology chart of, you know,
growth in technology or computation.
Power primes are always the most, the first thing that we
always try and we're trying to break the ceiling on those.
And I think that's going to be our yard.
That's calculations, right? It's calculation.
It's deterministic, it's predictable.
But it's also like. The reason why they would ask
about primes is because there's no pre mine arbitrary bullshit.
They know that the universe gave primes and there's no pre mine
to it. Like there's no special like or
we you. Cannot make it up every.
It's it's. It's because primes are the
smallest. Prime numbers in the number line
are essentially like blocks in the blockchain.
Exactly like it's It is true or not.
What you say is true or not? Yeah, it's not validate.
It's like if I'm a miner, Let's say I'm mining.
It's like I look at a number and you go, hey, that number's prime
and I go, hmm, let me check. Yep, that's prime.
Just the same way as the miners go.
This is a valid block. And they go, let me check.
Yep, Makes sense. Yeah, you know.
Can I take one step back to the security?
Yeah, yeah. I I just looked up.
Actually, two things. I just looked up.
I saw a tweet last week of a guy, Ryan McGuinness.
Apparently, he calculated what? An attack, a 51% attack on
Bitcoin would cost, right? Because that's maybe for also
people listening who don't know or I haven't learned about this
yet, right? Like the entire security point
of Bitcoin is the goal of that. Is that a it just it keeps going
one and two that no one can attack it long enough.
For them to change the entries in the Ledger, right.
So to fake more bitcoins, to have double spending, etcetera.
So that's basically how you could, how do you say, exploit
the network, right. When you have control, you can
make more bitcoins basically, or at least have double entries so
you can own more bitcoins. So that's called a 51% attack,
right, If you own or can control 51% of the network.
And I just looked it up. It's actually very cool, like
the. The hash rate, the computing
power of the network, 546 million in what we expressed
that I think that XA hash. Doesn't say.
Well, I think it's XA hash, yeah, I think it would be, yeah.
He calculates how much you need, so that is like.
Yeah, it calculates how much you need you need.
Well, you need 10 minutes. Yep.
At least 10 minutes or more to change it.
It will cost 1.3 billion per minute, a 51% attack.
So it'll cost you 13 billion get.
Printed, baby. Yeah, and so it cost 80 billion
an hour. 1.9 trillion for the day, Dude, dude.
Imagine hiring a dude that charges $80 billion an hour for
security. That's what Bitcoin is, if it
costs. Exactly.
And that is literally the dude you're hiring for your security
policy. Exactly.
He's got every amount and he will only work for someone else
if he's paid $80 billion in. Yes, exactly.
So that's the one thing I wanted to say about this attack and the
second I wanted to talk about. We talk about the reasoning kind
of like the sequencing of reasoning when we start from
security and and then talk about Bitcoin, right.
So when we say, well, Bitcoin is secured by the biggest
computational combined computational power in the
world, there therefore we make sure that A, it keeps going, B,
well, no one stays honest. Well, no one can attack it.
Yes, So it stays honest, right. So it's kind of like this self.
Incentivized and controlling almost, Yeah.
I would just say that like Entity, yeah and the I I.
Believe there's like multiple multiple feedback loops that
like also roll over into each other basically.
Well, I I started this like how would you, what's the sequencing
in your head, how you how you would talk through that.
It's identical to protein folding like literally in nature
like so the net in nature, the universe is a doubling circuit,
which means basically like double everything's doubling as
fast as possible. Bitcoin, what are we waiting for
in six months time? What's coming up, Bram?
The half we are doubling, Yes, exactly.
We're halving. So Bitcoin is the opposite.
So every bit of energy in nature is like this doubling circuit.
Now imagine you've got a doubling circuit getting
compressed into a halving circuit, right.
So, So you've got energy that is doubling like this, but you've
got a fire exit that's getting narrower and narrower and it's
all got to squeeze through that. So I think I've heard some, I
think it was Joe Burnett the other day said something about,
you know, you've got to feed the fire hose through the tip of a
needle. Now like that's what's happening
as what's getting smaller, the energy, man, that compression is
just gnarly. And so I think that's so cool to
think about. It's like, well, what have we
got here and what how much energy is it going to keep
eating? And you know, will it stay alive
forever? And when you think about, like
the simplicity of it is just just keep going, That's all you
got to do, just keep going. And so all it does, it folds on
itself, and it takes all if we think of each.
Block and deliver on the promises also, right?
Like, keep going, deliver on the promise.
Exactly. And so if we think about each
block almost like a moment or a memory, you know, in our brains,
you know if you, let's say you have a traumatic experience that
can affect your future memories, right?
You remember it and it affects just like me making a
transaction in this block now will affect the miner's chance
of finding the hash because my number in my address is going to
be different. And so it's all this like you
matter just by just by sending a transaction on the blockchain.
You should get a thank you letter from every Bitcoin miner,
because they only found that block because your transaction
was in it. They would have had to find a
whole new, different block because your transaction wasn't
there. So you matter, you know, if
you've got no purpose in place. You are validated.
Send a Bitcoin transaction. You matter, you know.
You are recognized. Well, I find it interesting and
the point should be paid. But hey, thank you for letting
us find that. Yeah, no worries.
You're welcome anytime guys. And so the security part was
your aha moment, but like, what were your?
Did you also have misconceptions like a lot of people don't get
Bitcoin on the first attempt? Oh, no, no, no.
This is by the way, my aha moment came like I was I built
this, you know, with the team, we started this company in 2013
and so I learned about Bitcoin in probably 2012.
But for that was from like a video game perspective.
And so I thought it was cool, like novelty.
But I was like, yeah, whatever. It's like, it's fine.
It's a novelty like that, but it's cool.
But it's. I didn't think it was like
overthrow the government. I thought it was kind of like,
oh, mad OK, so my Street Fighter currency coins can play with my
Warcraft coins or Warcraft coins and I can transfer those to
another game. And I just thought it was going
to become this sort of digital gaming currency.
But you know we built wire for a long time and it wasn't until
maybe after the second or third. No, the second bull run in 2018
or 19, we did a lot of. We worked a lot with the the
other, you know, assets in the space.
We'd never never touched any other assets until about 2018.
I think it was 2017 when we finally listed different assets
beyond Bitcoin. But they were never worth
listing because they would always take so much engineering
efforts to just to catch a flash in the pan.
Like you see everyone come and go really quickly.
They're like, Oh no, this is anyway, so Long story short
after all this sight of going up and down and understanding
everything, I was like, well, what is the fuck?
What is what the fuck's going on here?
Like what is the actual thing? And it's like I realized after
the block size wars, I think that was probably the most
important, the most important. I was so fortunate to have
people on my team were in that moment but like the block size
wars, you know, you think start-ups and money and
everything is it right? You don't think about an idea
being trumped by money and influence that much like.
So I'll give you an example, Coinbase and during the block
size wars, all the big companies in the space, BitPay and
Coinbase at the time, they had the biggest surface area of
users, meaning the largest amount of end users that are
that are using the product. And so they had a very loud
voice in saying that, well, we should go to this thing called
SegWit 2X. And it was trying to make a
compromise and all this sort of stuff.
And I see the logic from it all, But what they didn't realize is
that it doesn't matter how many people Coinbase has as users
because a user doesn't count, because a user's not running a
node. And so that made me realize, oh,
it's not about the start-ups. This is different because it's
not because usually start-ups find something and they're like
a level. High or or or or three Pardon.
It's a level or a tree higher where you it is, it is.
It's totally transcends that. And I was like, oh, this isn't
this is like a public utility, not this isn't like a cool piece
of tech. Like, it's a don't treat it like
a startup where it's gonna be malleable and it's gonna listen
to feedback, right. Like with most startups when you
see new technology, you're like oh that's a cool app, but it'd
be better if it had XYZ and they, you know next thing, no
features come out. It's sort of just it's a very
echo chamber where it listens and they're so data-driven,
these apps. The Bitcoin wasn't like that and
I saw with the block size wars when Coinbase, Bitpain, every
company is like you know 40 companies or something and only
three of them I think didn't sign and I'm not very lucky that
we wire. At the time I didn't really know
sort of what was the block size wars and Segway 2 XI didn't.
I wasn't the representative. I'm the I was the CEO of our
company. But we had smarter people.
It was Guy Richard and Neal in our team who were basically our
local Maxi's internally. And I was like, guys, this is
the decision we're being put to as a company.
Do we want to support, you know, this, this Sega 2X?
Or do we want to just say fuck you, not not fuck you, but just
Nah, don't change anything. And they were like they they sat
me down really patiently and really funnily.
But they were like, no, no, no, you don't want that because if
this is and a full education, I was like well, can you write the
e-mail politely saying hi, we're not going to be participating in
this, the offer. And at the time like you know
you're the CEO of a startup and at the time my dream was to
build something that add value and everything.
So I don't want to go against the grain with people that are
very well educated on stuff. And so you know, you know,
always it's a delicate dance to understand new technology but
also to make sure you're not losing focus on what you
originally started. So that was probably the biggest
aha moment for me, was realising it's not another because on
another startup it's not like another app on my phone.
It looks like that to me because it's technology and it's cool
and I like it. But I had to realise, Oh no, no,
no. This is a whole different
animal. And I realised when when
Coinbase and BitPay couldn't get through the Segway 2X thing, I
was like, oh wow, nothing matters in this world but the
node runners. End of story.
No matter it.
I don't care how many people you have in Washington today,
anywhere, nothing matters because a node is the only dude
that can vote. No one else can.
So after real and call me a fucking idiot because I have a
fucking I get I get things way slower than everybody.
Like, so you know, I don't really know what what's what
until way later down the track. I'm a repetition dude, just bang
my head against the wall over and over.
But that was a big that was a big aha moment because then I
realized that I basically realized that no one's in
control of this. And that is sort of that is sort
of the everyone's talking about AGI and AI now.
I was like no, no, no that that is what the AGI is like.
Bitcoin is that it's a distributed system that doesn't
stop and all it is doing is vacuuming in the consciousness
of humanity because we're such a money driven society.
It's like collecting all the receipts on everything we've
ever done in life and in that regard like because it's all
stamped on this Ledger and so. Yeah, that's so fascinating,
right? The yeah, the entire blockchain
is like 500 gigabytes. And it's all, it's all numbers,
yeah, and letters. It's all text.
It's all it is. It is.
It's fascinating. But I think that was a decent
aha moment. And then also, you know, the
that that led me to think, OK, well, Bitcoin's not going to
break. I don't think it can break.
And then I was like, well, what's it built on it?
It's like what's got no dependencies.
Like literally it's like it's built on cryptography.
It's built on mass. It's built on thermodynamics.
It's not built on. Like, oh, you know, some random
stack. Oh, it's like, oh, if you don't
have AWS, you can't do it. It's like it's built.
It's like a ghost. It's built out of nothing.
And it's like you can prove this to yourself.
When you see go on YouTube and watch someone mine a Bitcoin
block or try and do a hash, they basically do it manually with a
pen and paper. And when you realize that you
can create a private key with a pen and paper, you can.
Send a transaction. With a pen and paper, you can do
all the cryptography with a pen and paper.
You start realizing this thing transcends math, and that's
crazy. Hold on, I thought this was some
big influential thing. It's like, no, no, no.
It's just numbers. All of it.
Is just numbers and it's like, so I think you would agree that
Bitcoin is then a discovery and not an invention probably.
Because the numbers were already there.
So here's the way that I think about that question.
Because people say, you know, is it a discovery, an invention,
stuff like that. I always think of like, I think
this is how I think of it, but like inventions are where you
assemble discoveries sort of thing, so.
And that's like, I think, you know, maths is a discovery,
cryptography is a discovery, thermodynamics or whatever it
is, but it's the assemblement of these discoveries it feels like.
And that's what you call invention, because you know,
nothing's naturally discovered, I don't think.
I think it's all comes from an inspiration, whether we can see
it ourselves or not. I think we're actually gonna be
able to see this a lot more in the future as we start having
things like ChatGPT. Which can connect the dots of
very foreign topics very closely because it can find all the
intricate relationships between the topics.
So I could say something like, hey, I'm a I'm a scuba dive, a
plumber that fixes wells on the bottom of the ocean.
Explain Bitcoin to me like I'm that guy, and it will find ways
to explain Bitcoin in an analogy.
And analogies as well of analogies are really powerful, I
find, because they're like the ultimate translator.
If I can find an analogy that you know, then I can relate
everything to you really quickly and it's like just adding
another column in your database, but it's like, yeah, I don't
know, I don't know where I kind of got there, but I've kind of
got to be rambled. But like, why?
Why? I said I think you would agree
that it's a discovery, but. Yeah, yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
That's right. Yeah.
I think it is an invention based
on, you know, like it's an assemblement of discoveries.
But theoretically it is a discovery because all it is is a
big all that data in the blockchain is just a big long
sequence of numbers, just like π is basically like if we wanted
to assemble it all like numbers. So it is, you know, in that
capacity we have discovered it just like my, you know,
Michelangelo. It's like you're both the
sculptor and the, you know, the marble and the sculptor whatever
it is like where you there's, if you've got a block of marble and
there's a statue and is made out of it, then that statue was
always in there. It was a permutation or a
possibility of a number of Ting, Ting, Ting Ting Ting.
Yeah, like you know the stone Mason or whatever, but it was
always depends on your sequencing or what you your
application. Yeah, and.
I think it was Heisenberg. Or yeah, maybe it's him, one of
these physicists. He was like basically everything
came down like nature's we can only.
Evaluate nature's behaviors based on our lens or line of
questioning in which we question nature.
Yeah, I. Don't butcher that.
Yeah, I love that. No, it's also in.
I think it's also in. Listen to a podcast with a guy
who talks about quantum physics and how he actually ended up to
the same conclusion as like like Eastern traditional, like
spirituality. Like what's, you know what?
Our soul and spirit and stuff, but what?
Here we go. This is it.
So sorry, sorry, Roerna Heisenberg.
But what we observe is not nature itself, but nature
exposed to our method of questioning.
Yeah, exactly. Now.
The easiest way to say that is what we observe is not your
public key. It is your public key based on
the algorithm which we look through it.
So decoder in some sense, exactly.
So it's like this number only makes sense in that context.
So your private key is just a number, it doesn't mean.
And it's also it has multiple it only means mutations, right?
It has multiple interpretations if you don't have the right
decoder. Like that's what I wanted to
say. In this podcast I talked about
how actually science science method is flawed in a way
because like this guy talked about how what's the What's the
guy, What's his name again? Damn, I'm drawing a blank.
No, no, no. The Who travelled the world and
like wrote about all the animals in the world.
Jesus, most famous person. What?
Adam, bro, hold on. What the fuck?
I'm so lost there. Hold on.
Sorry. I'm sorry, dude.
I'm fucking blind. I'm thinking about, Oh my God, I
I'm totally drawing a blank like the guy on the ship with his
diary and he looked at all the dodos and whatever, like, what
the fuck? Why am I not coming up with his
name? Which?
Oh man, I don't know. I'm lost, All right?
If I Google this name and I say this name, you're going to be
like, you're an idiot. I'll come up with the name.
But he talked about like that. Observation is creation, right?
So the lens through which you observe, right, You observe
nature and then you see stuff happening and then you can
describe what is happening. But once you create a certain
law or like rule on it, then that is only your lens that you
create that thing. But if you look at and in this
conversation they talked about, there's all these laws of
nature, rules of nature that we can observe.
And we can say, like, when A happens, B happens, then C
happens, but we don't understand why it happens, right.
And so those are basically three different things, the
observation to creation or the actual understanding of what is
then behind that, right? Yeah, I still don't know the
name. No, but I know, I know that
idea. Like, yeah, there's a that's a
lot of talk about, you know, your thoughts create your
reality and your reality. Your thoughts create your
personality and your personality is your personal reality
reality. That's the lens in which you see
things. And this is where it gets
interesting. Because what what entrepreneurs
do is they find a common lens that we all have and add value
to that lens. So they make a better lens for
all the people that use that specific lens.
Let's say photo sharing is a lens.
Let's say money is a lens. But whatever it is, people are
trying to make those lenses better.
And so I think of entrepreneurs like, let's say Albert Einstein,
his work in science, everyone is adopted.
Everyone has adopted that because it's not optional.
It's got 8 billion users overnight because it's a
physics, like it's a truth in the universe.
So now if we start thinking about that, it's like you start
thinking about the the layers that we can go down.
It's like, oh, if you go into maths and equations, if you make
a beautiful equation for everyone to use for humanity,
that's a truth of the universe. Then you've just given 8 billion
people, you know, a new tool. Like, that's an instantly
available tool to everyone. Yeah, because it's a truth.
It's instantly downloadable. So it's just like, imagine this
neural link, right? Neural link is this brain chip
in your head. It's like.
That's one way of thinking about it.
But imagine I could give you an equation that helped translate
everything around you instantly to understand it, not to know
what it is like. Oh, that's a fish.
That's a this. Because nothing is a fish.
Nothing is a bear or whatever. It's that's all the labels we
gave it. What's its energy like?
Show me its energy because its energy signature is what it
really is. And so I think.
I think we're becoming more, more down the rabbit hole in
that. And I think because as we get
the world's getting very small and we're like, I don't know
what everyone thinks like last time I checked, I haven't seen
any aliens driving past our planet.
Like if we think about planet like a house, I haven't seen
many aliens driving past our planet.
So why the fuck are we all trying to kill each other?
It doesn't even make any sense to me.
No. Makes no sense.
No, I agree. It's legitimately retarded.
And so how am I disrespect the thoughts of people that we're
all trying to kill each other? It's like, why are we dropping
bombs on each other? Dude, we need their resources
and they need you. It's like.
It would be way more efficient as a planet.
It's all random actually, like where we ended up and where
everyone ended, or what the borders are.
I chose. That guy chose to be there.
You think he chose to be there, to be born in whatever?
Yeah. No, it's nonsense.
Yeah, I agree. It's.
Insane. Anyway, so I think we need to
sort of start finding ways to work on the same team, and we've
been getting better at that as a species, you know?
Fortunately, the Internet helped us all have one.
Sort of central database let's say or reservoir or whatever
that we can like little like like like in the Serengeti we
can have some information. From all the animals go to the
watering hole and they all share from the same watering hole and
they respect each other's boundaries and some get killed
in the process and the crocodile snaps something.
But it's like a common watering hole that's like the Internet.
And so we have the common, let's say the common.
Telephone the Internet. Now we have the common language,
which would be English, and that's not because it's the most
spoken, it's because it's the second most spoken.
Because if you're trying to find the most common thing somewhere,
you know we want to go to like, hey, what's the the highest
number? It's like no no if I randomly
picked anyone, what's the most most understood?
Second language. You know what's the most common
second language? Well, we'll go for that because
that's if everyone's got the same backup.
We'll go with the people that have got the same backup.
Let's say my first language doesn't work and we'll go with
the backup. Yeah, yeah.
And so, and then now we've got money.
So we've got a language, we've got a database, and now we've
got a Ledger like we call it money, but it's just an energy
Ledger really. So now as a species, we can all
write to the same place. So we're building on the same
foundation together. And I think that'll help bring
us closer together because now we all realize like the Internet
made us feel much further away, but closer together in a way.
Like I now know what? You know what's happening in,
let's say bombs are going off on the other side of the world.
I know that. And I can see multiple
perspectives and angles and stuff because there's so much
collaborative journalism from all this, you know, influences
on social media and stuff. So you get more opinions.
And I think as we're getting hyper fed opinions, our brains
are getting better at synthesizing all of it and
drawing patterns. I feel like we're getting way
better at pattern matching and we don't actually know it yet.
Like our consciousness is growing like crazy and we're not
really sure. We don't.
We can't really explain it. It feels like.
But but yeah dude, I think, I think, you know it's funny.
I think we're just about to enter the most exciting time in
human history. I really do.
We've got a lot of hard times ahead, but I think we're about
to go into a straight up, like full on, ready to take on the
universe where we all sort of. This is a locker room talk time
of a moment for Earth like we are, we are.
We've gotten so good at harnessing interconnectivity
that when you have interconnectivity on anything,
it now means that everything has become one, which now means
that's a single point of failure, right?
So because we're all interconnected, we are Now we
have things like new technology can.
Can break the bank. Always.
Instantly. So AI, right, This threat of AI
can kill the, you know, kill the Internet or maybe, you know,
people breaking RSA encryption or all these kind of they feel
like game over moments, right? As we start getting closer to
these moments as a species, we start realizing that it's yeah,
right guys, it's time to stop fucking around like this isn't
about you printing money and fucking doing whatever this is.
This is do or die time and if we are on a team, we are not
fucking around and we aren't taking ourselves seriously as a
species, Let's go. We can fucking harness the
universe. We're the masters of the
universe. This is our universe.
We are part of it too. It's our job to play ball with
it, so we need to respect and understand it and it's really,
really hard to respect and understand what's going on.
If everyone's, you know, arguing inside, it's like saying hey,
look at the look at the fireworks on New Year's Eve
outside and or you know. Let's say look at the fireworks
outside. No, I'm too busy arguing in my
house. It's like, dude, you're missing
it all. Like, you know, it's like being
on holidays and standing in your room arguing instead of looking
at the beautiful. You know, the lions outside if
you're in Africa or so. I don't know on a looking at the
view out the window. But do you think that that when
I love what you said about truth.
By the way, the name I drew blank on was Charles Darwin.
Like hello. Oh, that dude.
Yeah, smart cat dude. Yeah when you talk about truth I
like like what you said about internets with information you
know we have speech but the money you know I I love what
that you said truth because I once I once tweeted like and I
think I I also heard it of someone else or maybe I could
take credit for it but I love I love like bit Bitcoin is like
engineered truth like the ultimate engineered truth it's.
Just the only thing it is, It's the only thing it is, right?
It's just this thing. Anytime you look at it, anyone
who looks at it, however you look at it, it's always the same
thing. It's just the same thing.
And the entire network, including the security and all
the people and decentralization, they make sure that it's always
correct and they are all incentivized to make sure it's
correct. You have to play by the rules or
you cannot benefit from the results of the rules, right.
And so it's ultimate engineered truth.
And when we see that, I think you know where where we want to
go or what you just talked about like once you understand that,
then you also don't have to worry about it and no one can do
anything about it. So it just.
It it it, it disappears in a sense, right?
It moves to the background. It's not top of mind anymore.
And so then you can actually lookout the window or see the
fireworks or see the light. Yeah, because it's not.
It's not. It doesn't have to occupy a
space in your in your consciousness anymore.
Yes, exactly. And now your consciousness is
free to roam on other things, so you can discover more creative
things or whatever. Exactly.
Yeah, it's well, like the children, right?
What you talked about like you can be a child again and
exactly. And now let's think about that,
right? So think about if you were born
in, let's say, 1900. You get, you know, you get
educated, you go to school and whatever.
If you're born in the year 2000, you get educated, you go to
school, you get an iPhone. I think here's a Here's a
prediction. People are going to be born.
And because knowledge is so consolidated now that everything
is a click away, like you can ask ChatGPT, anything.
So any creative kid can sit there and just ask at any
question in the world and get a meaningful amount of meaningful
amount of accuracy, most likely depending on it, right.
But so you're going to have kids.
Education is not going to be a thing in existence.
The only thing we'll probably get educated about is energy.
So if you think coming out into the earth, right, you say you
come out, you got to figure out, go to get a job, do this.
You don't actually have to. Now Bitcoin is a public utility
that pays anyone if they know energy really well.
Hi, you know energy better than them.
I'll pay you more than them. And it's like really?
Yeah, I'll pay you way more. Like I will pay you the most
amount if you know energy better than everyone else.
And that means energy efficiency.
If I can make the most efficient energy systems, I will get the
biggest reward from a public utility.
And that's the public utility is Bitcoin.
So you're going to have kids just like we have people that
it's a very. And I know this sounds
ridiculous, but much like we're going to put so much onus on
energy in the future, I think we've finished information.
I think we're pretty close to it.
So the age of information is gone and I think we're about to
migrate into the age of energy. And I think Bitcoin is that
connective tissue helping us move from information to energy
as a as a species. But you know, if you think about
it as an incentive or an enabler or accelerator, so.
So it. Well, Bitcoin is, you know, if
we, if we're sort of information is so arbitrary, which is what
we've realized it can be this, it can be that, it can be
whatever, but it doesn't matter. So now we're so focused on what
matters, purposeful things. And we look at Bitcoin because
it's expensive and it's hard to use and Bitcoin's so valuable.
We know that any time someone is making a transaction on it, it's
a purposeful event. Like, I don't know when the last
time. Unless you're spamming people
with, you know, wallet of Satoshi.
Yeah, yeah, you have to. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah. No, it's.
Everything. That proof of work, it
represents something, yeah. It is a is very, yeah.
Exactly. It's something that happened and
now we can tether that behavior to something that happened
offline, right? So it's like some moment on this
chain with this, this digital Ledger of numbers.
It's got some level of influence in its physical reality.
So let's say I'll give you a perfect example.
Let's say tomorrow Satoshi's coins move to Coinbase.
I I don't have a time machine yet, but I guarantee you with my
hand on my heart that there will be an article about it.
It will be trending on Twitter. It will be an article in
Coinbase. It'll be an article in the
block. And people are like, oh, how
could you know that? It's like no read the tea leaves
these coins the highest value that a wallet can have on it.
Beyond its monetary value, the next highest thing is it's days
destroyed. So the higher amount of days
destroyed it has, the more deterministic you can say the
supply is and how unlikely something is going to move again
like because once it's the trend is the friend.
So once you start having a really high amount of days
destroyed, it gets more and more likely that they're never going
to change. And I think that's sort of now
when you have the higher that metric is on your wallet.
The higher the influence is in the off in the physical space.
So it's just like if you have there's two things.
It's days destroyed and the amount of money.
If you have lots of money, you get a tweet whale moved one
trillion you know dollars worth of Bitcoin to Coinbase.
Cool. But it's like you know a wallet
that hasn't moved coins since the first genesis block.
Just move things. Well, there is someone there.
Something is happening, yes. Exactly that's the thing, that's
the thing in it. So you you try and look at how
well how do these things, how entangled are is the physical
and the non physical between Bitcoin and I think that's also
something that's only possible with Bitcoin actually to have
that transparency and see everything, everything that is.
Everything Everywhere happening, but also what did not happen and
for how long and from when on all these things.
Yeah, that. That still actually surprises me
daily. Sometimes when I see these
people tweet out these tests, like an app, you know,
blockchain analysis, whatever. Then I think like this is the
only thing for which this is possible, that the whole
heritage, the whole provenance, all the everything you can see,
everything and anything else. Disregard it as money or store
failure or whatever, like you can actually not.
Well, maybe homes come closest in some sense or something, but.
Even that, it's all just everything is ruggable.
Because now, yeah, there's always people in between, yeah.
Everything is ruggable and it just means not like give it to
me. It's mine.
Like screw the government because I actually, in my head,
I actually really like government because I think
they've done a really good job to do their best without all the
information we have now. It seems obvious to us now, but.
At the time, they're sort of like trying to figure out how to
make it work and I give them the benefit of the doubt anyway.
But you know in this point it's like why would you people want
sovereignty People like the the the soul yearns for it right.
I think and I think you know who people are become purpose comes
after independence I think and solitude.
And so that sovereignty is part of that solitude process if you
look at. You know, great creatives over
history, they've always been obsessed with solitude.
Like, just because solitude is no distractions, it's just you
and your thoughts. So, look, I'm pretty sure you're
gonna find out what your purpose is, more likely than sitting in
a cafe drinking a Pepsi Max. Like, you know, I'm pretty sure
that's not gonna be the way that you go.
Oh, OK. Like, you're going to need
obviously suffering like in your diet.
If you've got lots of suffering in your, you know, like
hardship, that's gonna create a huge amount of.
I would say self understanding, let's say because you see how
you go through battles and you know you build your confidence
based on how you can react to hard times or whatever like
things like that. And it doesn't mean you have to.
You don't have to react perfectly to everything.
It just it helps you create your identity.
Who am I? Am I the guy that screams fuck
when he stubs his toe really loudly and doesn't care if his
neighbor's kids wake up or am I? The guy goes.
You know, like everyone's different, but we only know who
we are from all of our interactions.
In the same way that you couldn't prove to me who you
are, I would tell you who you are.
Because you you don't declare. So identity is not something you
declare, It's something that's a sign.
So I know you think, oh, no, that's me.
I'm telling you, I'm me. Well, no, If I've got a machine
that can produce two of you identically.
The only way I'm going to find out who's who is if I ask you
questions and you satisfy them in my mind.
So if there's two of you sitting there, I might pick the wrong
one because the wrong one answered the contextual
questions better than you did. And so it just gets very gets
quite scary. You know, when we take our
memories for granted, it can get very scary because if you lose
those memories or those thoughts, you might not ever be
able to say them or they might not ever be able to be heard
because. I don't know.
Anyway, it's it's it's interesting stuff.
But I think, yeah, it's super interesting this how does this,
yeah, yeah. But how, how does this tie into,
I heard you talk before about, you know, self transformation
etcetera. This is basically what you're
talking about. Also, right?
Because. It doesn't change.
So I like if you look at like let's say we are influenced from
our environment, just say hypothetically we're and I think
we I think we absolutely are. It's a no brainer.
But let's say you've got a different opinion.
Humor me for a second if we're influenced from our environment.
You have never seen anything in history with your own eyes that
doesn't change. And this is the first thing that
you've seen that doesn't change. You can't.
So it's like that to me. It's all, it's all consuming.
It's like saying there's an that that is an alien.
Like if there was an alien that landed on Earth One dude,
everyone would. Basically, you're like, they
would want to know every single piece of information about every
single thing. So Bitcoin's the same thing.
It's like he's the only, he's one of one.
Why the fuck wouldn't I want to know this dude back to front,
Like, he's amazing or like, it's amazing and it's like, well,
what properties does it have? And it's like, well, it doesn't
change. It's like, oh cool, It likes
proof of work. So it likes to work for its
food, you know, it's like if it's an entity, a species.
It works for its food and that's.
And the food is the work. Oh no, The work is the work.
The food is the The food is the energy.
The energy. Exactly.
Yeah. But yeah, you start it, it's one
of one. And so now you put it in a
category of its own. And now I thought the easiest
way to think about it is like, Satoshi gave this, gave us his
sort of child, and he's gone now for whatever reason.
But. He's given us his child and it's
our obligation to just honor the wishes of whatever he said when
he left. It's not our job to fix it
because I don't know if you've noticed in humanity, we try and
fix things and we're really fucking terrible at it because
we usually make the problem worse.
I don't know. I really rarely point to
anything that we've ever done that hasn't.
I think that's what we talked about in the beginning that I
don't know what the English word is, but it's kind of like what
what I said about you know with the money we can fix everything,
etcetera. Like we have that tendency.
But I love how in Bitcoin actually and and although
there's discussions obviously, but I think like the, the, the
ethos are like the center of this thing.
Not to believe but I think the understanding that is like in
general people who see Bitcoin see that too and and they want
to uphold that in a sense. Right.
It's not. And and actually anyone who
wants to change it or whatever, like they can actually do it.
So. And that's funny because then I
think you get to the proof of work step instantly like, OK,
that's kind of where I'm at right now.
Like if if I see people on Twitter like say, oh, I don't
know, comment on Bitcoin and then I think like, well, are
you, are you short? No.
OK, your opinion is worthless. Do you think this application of
blockchain and proof of work, blah blah, if that sucks, well
here's the code. Good luck.
Are you doing that? You know Greenpeace?
Are you doing that? No.
Right. Are you doing it?
No. So then it's worthless.
And I love, I love that mechanic of of the whole proof of work
ethos is that you can actually change it if you don't.
When you're talking, you're talking trash like you're not
following up with your words. So you have to And I think
that's like one of the biggest lessons in Bitcoin is that
adopting really adopting a proof of work ethos in in how you
operate or how you live for life and stuff.
Yeah. It's discipline that it's
exhibited. But here's the thing, because
with Bitcoin's actions are only based on the node operators and
so it's like it's it's discipline is exhibited through.
The firmness and the understanding that node
operators have because Bitcoin doesn't change, because the node
operators say no, I'm not changing, and that that's sort
of this weird part where you go wow.
People are really that respectful.
There is hope in that respectfulness of the protocols
because we usually see people. Everyone wants to get their
dirty fucking hands on it. Everyone needs to change it for
self-interest. Self-interest is collective
incentive to, of course. And this is a group project like
this is Satoshi's baby, and we're all doing a group
assignment on planet Earth. You remember you need.
To do group assignments, it's the same thing.
It's a big group assignment. And he's like, hey guys, don't
fuck up, please get me an A. And we're like, well, that's
funny because it's without instruction.
It's, well, it's, I want to say it's without instruction, it's
with the description. But you have to, yeah, process
that in your mind a certain way before you decide yourself if
you want to be in a group project.
Right. So it's not exactly no one
forces you to be in a group project or whatever.
Like it's your yeah. And Satoshi knew that.
And he didn't want to force people into a group project.
So I'll tell you how you force someone you give him.
Satoshi invented irreversible digital money.
If you invent irreversible digital money, the people that
need that porn sites, gambling sites, you can make that a
billion dollar business in a month.
Now you can make it a billion dollar business.
Or instead of taking it to porn and gambling sites, you could go
to. The cryptographers and say, hey,
this is gonna be really special in the future, but please
nurture it and and and keep it pure because they know that the
incentives of the cryptographers.
If they like it, they're there to work because they like it,
not because of the carrot that comes at the end of the work,
which is like, you know, like the cryptographer's like, oh,
this is cool, Just like someone when you like doing something
genuine, yeah. They're genuine.
It's like, it's like, it's like a kid playing with Lego.
He doesn't think he's building something.
He's like, this is cool. It's a pro, like, you know, he's
having fun. And that's where the
cryptographers are like, wow, this is new tech.
We haven't haven't seen this before.
So they're a safer place to park it for longevity than putting it
in. Into the hands of perverted
incentives, You know what I mean?
These guys are just cool. Well, it was like aligned
incentives from the start. I think like perverted
incentives are, well, abundant in the in the in the current.
System. Right.
It's only the. Yeah, exactly.
Yeah. Yeah.
From the start, also, right. So there was no noble or genuine
start. It obviously serves the people
who came up with it. And I think that's also why it's
so amazing that whoever whatever which group, Satoshi is that
like that that that they are not there.
Like what? A.
How do you say what a, what a, what A selfless act.
You know, it's amazing. A. 100 percent, 100% I think so
too. I think so too.
And it's like it just that it's it sets, dude, this is we're
seeing what this sets. Like we're seeing in real time.
A human being or an entity set? An example of behavior, yeah,
That other people want to exhibit, yes.
Yes, in a really grand way. And this is, you know, the
grandest, almost the grandest, right?
It's how we how people communicate with each other,
yeah. Yeah, it's like the dude that
made this money system that solves heaps of problems.
He thought this way. Yeah, he's gone and he thought
this way. FYI, it's like, all right,
whatever. He's thinking better.
He's solving a lot of problems. I probably could learn something
from his way of thinking. Exactly.
All their way of thinking. So I think it's really
interesting. I don't even think we know how
many problems it's solved. And I mean that So honestly, I
think literally like, Oh my God. Yeah, I just, I start you.
It's like a religion, right? It feels like a religion because
and people feel like that's a dirty word.
It's like, well, no, fucking. What is a religion?
It's a set of values that you adhere to.
We're in a cult, no? Yeah, But I agree, for me, it's
really I I call it more. It's more like spiritually or
something. Almost like it frees.
It frees your consciousness from lots of things, actually.
Yeah, and what it is. Everything is just a protocol.
This is what we got to realize. It's protocol is a series of
steps to do something or whatever.
It's like or reproduce something.
It's like. That is all religion is.
Hey, you're religious. Uh, no protocols that you adhere
to? Yes.
OK, well, it's the same. You don't need a dude in a white
cloak in the sky to be a religion, like, or you know,
Muhammad or anyone. It's like something you believe
in and one it's. Something that you believe in
that represents A broader blanket than of of what?
It's behavior you'd love more people to have.
Maybe or something, I don't know.
But it's. But it is interesting.
But yeah, it does feel like a religion, but it feels like a
religion Because for finally, for once in our lives, we've got
a set of values, you know, because it feels like the only
value that the West has had is consumerism.
It's like here, the more shit you buy, the more SH you know,
the more value you're getting. It's like, I don't know, it just
feels like you've been sold a bit of a turd sandwich on
consumerism and capitalism. Like it's garbage.
Like, I think, I don't know, it's weird, but it just feels
like you've totally missed the whole essence of life.
Not like Oh yes, capitalism better than communism.
What the fuck is an ISM dude? Who the fuck in the universe
knows what an ISM is? No one and you guys are fucking
pulling each others Dicks trying to figure out which ones the
best. Dude, there's aliens building
intergalactic fucking black hole eaters and you're sitting there
wondering Oh no, I'm alright, no I'm alright.
In my arbitrary opinion, like. Let's get to fucking work, guys.
Yeah, yeah. That's why the percent of the
group, Yeah, it's. The fox in charge here, and this
is the problem when you have no one in charge with no
leadership, which is why Satoshi is probably a good chance these
religious deities and stuff there.
Satoshi Muhammad, Jesus Christ, those kind of people that have a
huge audience of influence or potential scope of influence
like those dudes are. That's sort of the the
leadership qualities. But humanity doesn't have like a
CEO or a like leader of Earth, which is retarded.
Because if we actually are on the same team, which I'm pretty
sure we are, then we all should be sort of like, OK, what's the
game plan here guys like there's 8 billion of us.
What's the game plan? Are we all going to talk to each
other and figure out how we're going to fucking we should be
eating Suns and solar systems like?
Is that technology? Exactly, Exactly.
Yeah, I love. I do.
You're gonna talk about this? Well, it's like my thing.
And I think if we talk about. Who do I have to pour cold water
on to get them to wake up and be like, Oh yeah, yeah, maybe it
doesn't matter. Umm, if I buy the purple or the
red shoes, it's like, no, fucking doesn't matter, you
idiot. It's not a problem.
Yeah, it's not. It's not It's not a thing.
No, I I am. We and we DM D before right?
About like the different, like documentaries and stuff.
Like, I'm so into this. Like, I I find it fascinating
that more and more people like, kind of look at the world in
this way, right? Like, I think that's a good
thing. But also it feels like it also
kind of sad sometimes where I think like, oh, we are so far
away from this. We are so far away from actually
sometimes I think like, why aren't we all thinking about the
following question every day together?
What is going on here like? What is more important, like we
are, We are like, what is going on here?
Like the life, the world, the universe.
Like, why aren't we thinking about that together every day?
All day, Like together? Just want to get an answer.
Why are we here? Why are we here?
That's all I want to know.
It's like people like, oh, you know, we're too busy distracted
being here. It's like, yeah, but we are far
away from like, if you think about the origin, right, like,
OK, you have hunter gatherers. They need to survive, right?
That's the primal instinct is OK, we we, we should not die.
And every child that gets born, they shouldn't die either.
So at some point when you have like enough food and shelter and
you're protected from, you know, nature, and yeah, it makes
rational sense to me that the first thought of in in your free
time would be when you look up and you'll be like, what?
OK. What is going on now?
What do I do? You know?
Yeah. No, like I need to, I need to
look at it like does it change? How long do I have to look at it
before something changed? Well, turns out, you know, I
don't know if you ever heard about what a great, what the
great year is, the great. So we have a day, we have a
year, right. We have the great year which is
24,000 years. How how the earth turns in a
certain way in our in our solar system and that actually shows
the as it's called. Again like the precession.
Like how the how the earth kind of changes like the wobble of
the earth you can only you can only see that after 24,000
years. And we know that like a lot of
old civilizations had knowledge of the stars, which means this
was like multi multi, multi, multi, multi generational
project or something over 24,000 years so that you can see one of
these precession loops. Of course you are thinking about
that because you want to understand like where, where,
where did I get dropped? Like you know?
And such as like respawning in Fortnite, being like where am I?
Yeah, like what is this world? I I it's mind blowing And I
think, I think yeah, it's just I I think it's almost hyperbolical
when we talk about and I say this a lot, but maybe it's just
true or like that that it's going to be like this.
Like if we fix the money like how we exchange value with each
other and we are more conscious. We are less worried about the
blue shoe or red shoe or orange shoe.
But we are looking outside and finding other people that are
looking outside who are just as interested in the world and what
is going on. Then we could get there.
I think it will take lots of years, you know, for us to go
back to that consciousness, but yeah.
That would be amazing. It'll take a long time.
It'll take a long time, but it's almost like we have to go back
in time with our consciousness. Because if you think about
exactly. Our consciousness are very
poisoned right now. Like if you could see our
consciousness it's it's not being generated enough
internally. It's being pushed on us in like
externally as we're back in the day, like people could think
clearer like. You would look up at the stars
and you would think, what the fuck am I doing here?
And what's going on? You hear some dude, like tinking
some rocks together over in Egypt or something, like what is
happening. But imagine the yeah, the
luminosity going to bed at night and looking up at the stars
because the sky would be so clear.
It would be like a movie to them That was the most entertaining.
You know, like, exactly. You know, like look at when you
could look forever, you know and and so.
But now because recognize the the they draw patterns so
different, so they draw. They, you know, you've got like
the. Stars in the sky.
And so to them this is something I find quite interesting.
You know how it's like, oh, you know, there's Gemini and they
say it's like just it's like a very small represent.
It's basically a very pixelated image of something.
It's like, oh, there's the lion and it's like eight stars.
Yeah, it's like 8 stars. You're like, OK, I'll give you
that. But if you think about, remember
the first Mario Brothers when we played it or the first, you
know, Mario Kart, Mortal Kombat? Oh my God, it's so real.
And now you look at the graphics and you're like how did I think
the PlayStation had real graph? Like you know when PlayStation
came out or whatever it used to look real.
So imagine to them. That's like the imagination,
yeah. Well, we we look at the because
the imagination's filling the image.
So when we look at the stars, we look at it like we're looking
at, you know, Super Mario Brothers one on Nintendo.
Like it looks like there's nothing up there.
There's pixelators or whatever, but when they looked at it they
were like. Oh my God.
And they would draw it because their imagination is feeling so
much up. Yeah, it would.
Look, so real. I find that quite interesting.
But now if you think about like deities, right?
So let's say Jesus Christ. So back in the day, if he's a.
If you just think about consciousness as being an
understanding of your surroundings, right, Like and
the more understanding of your surroundings, the the higher
consciousness you have. And the broader your
surroundings, the higher the consciousness.
Yeah, you know, like people get surroundings, can go to cosmos
level, but yeah. Yeah, exactly.
You can expand to understand everything in the no.
So here's the thing. If you have a unified field
theory, then that expands your understanding of everything in
the cosmos and how particles work.
To exact to the walls, basically, yeah, from the
windows to the walls, whatever Little John said.
But basically it's like, it expands your conscience as much
as possible. So if you think about people
back in the day, like these Jesus Christ people and all
these like amazing, you know, historical figures.
They they very well could have been normal individuals that
would just you know we've we have.
More tuned in. More tuned in like we have
autistic savants now. Like if you look at Daniel
Tammet, he could fastest person to learn Icelandic language.
Two weeks. It's the hottest language on the
planet to learn. Recited π to 10,000 digits.
Took him 4 1/2 hours. He had three bananas, 2 bottles
of water during the process, 38 people checking him, and this is
off the top of his head. Now that's superhuman to us
relative to us, but that's a thing.
Our brains are capable of all of that.
So imagine you get these people born with what we see as a
deformity, which isn't it's a gift.
But we see like let's say some person back in the day, they
might have been born with a very high level of consciousness or
very in tune understanding. So all these people are all
around like Cavemen or sort of not really good.
And there's dudes like, hey. Don't.
Hey, smile. You look better when you and he
starts saying all these things and he constantly is being
right. He's like, Oh no, don't stand on
the tree knives, right, Yeah. He's like, oh, don't stand under
the tree. The Apple's going to hit you on
the head. Oh fuck.
And he goes, wow, who's this dude?
He keeps getting it right. And he might just be like us
like a logical cat. He's like, Nah, man, don't what?
The tree was falling on. You got to move, duh.
Yeah, well, that's thing. But if you want to see, it's.
Everything's not obvious though. This is the thing like watch on,
go on YouTube and go high schoolers.
Reading analogue clock. They don't know how to read an
analogue clock. Have you seen that?
No, no, no, This is it was mind blowing.
I looked at it and they're like it's just like where point TX
and this isn't it Australia right?
So this isn't a this isn't an insult to them.
It just shows that all we are is patent matching.
Like intuition doesn't really exist.
We're just patent matching and repetition.
Because it's not like. There's no intuition to read a
clock like these kids. If you know, if you haven't
learned how to read a clock, you're not going to know how to
read a clock. Yeah, exactly.
And it's fascinating because then we don't think about that
enough. We think, Oh yeah, well, of
course you could. It's like, no, no, no, you have
to learn it too. And it's funny how we take
learning for granted, I think, because actually like fun
example, I asked my my son, like, how would you express
being on the phone with your hands?
Yeah. So I'd go like that.
And he'd go like this. Fascinating.
OK, so another does flat hands. Yeah, yeah.
And you're like, yeah, it's sort of like, why is the floppy disk
the save icon? Yeah, No one.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, exactly. That one.
Yeah. Yeah.
Can you wind your window up for me?
Right. You say I wind your window up.
I don't know if that's an expression, but that's always
click on the button. Yeah, but now it's like, yeah,
it's just a button. You don't wind anything.
And so I've seen like I saw my younger cousins, they were.
Opened a magazine at like this dinner and they were using it
and they were like, I watched him go like this, trying to
pinch it on the paper, on the paper, oh shit.
And I was like, when I saw that I was like, no, no way.
And it was like one of those aha moments that, Oh my God, I'm old
as fuck now I'm part of my language.
Yeah, yeah. All right, let's talk about
1:00. Last thing.
And I have a final question for you.
But I wanted to talk about you're totally into
thermodynamics, but and also I wanted to ask about the law of
conservation of energy. Like why is that important to
Bitcoin? And how is a law of nature
applied within a digital technology?
How? How can we make sense of that?
So the digital technology? Is powered by all the mining
operations and all the that's it only succeeds because of all the
energy being poured into it. So if we think of every block
being mined as an amount of energy that it took to find that
number. Think of energy like layers.
Like we're looking at a cross section of the earth.
You know, the sediment layers, the different like, oh, there's
grass on the top and then there's rock and then there's
this and then that add down to all the way to lava.
That's what this work is. This work is like piling on more
work. Just like diamonds are made
under pressure. You know, like lots and lots of
pressure. Exactly the same thing.
Yeah, the transactions we mine a block and then that block goes
down and now all the miners are working and then that goes down.
And So what we're doing is sort of compressing things down
further into the Earth and so we've.
With energy, it's got to go somewhere.
Just like, you know, just like when you're building the
pyramids. These dudes were sweating all
day and moving these big ass rocks.
Well, now to move those rocks later.
They're there, you. Their energy is encoded.
Spend the same amount of energy to move them back, right?
Yeah, exactly. It's like that's encoded into
there. And so just like all the energy
commitments that have been made by all the miners approvable
commitments, not through only the numbers, Not only for the
mathematics we can prove it based on, you know, the leading
zeros, but we can cross reference that with the energy
grid, the history of the energy like the energy grid.
Like let's say logs to prove the usage, yes.
If we had a thermal footprint of the Earth, we could identify all
the thermal footprint that is matching this hash footprint,
let's say very easily. And I find that we're going to
start respecting that link a bit more I think.
And then, because you know, it's like, not your keys, not your
coins. And it's still like, well, not
your keys, not you. Now in the AI world, if you're
not cryptographically, you right now, I'm talking to you now,
but. In the future, I'm not going to
be talking to you. You're going to have a fake
version of you that's ChatGPT because it's answering every
question, because it's scanned everything you've ever written,
ever. And it's impersonating you to
pretend to be me so that you can now sit out in the pool drinking
your pina colada or whatever you want to drink.
So what's real and what's not is going to become very hard to
distinguish, and that's why cryptographic keys are going to
be the only mechanism of proof. Four things because they require
work to to generate them. So I can say it's not plain
text, it's like my computer and when I say work that
calculation. The calculation was because the
calculation that you made is directly linked to a spark that
ran through your computer circuit, which is directly
linked to the energy socket that is the cables coming out of,
which is directly linked to the power station.
So you see. The Bitcoin, it kind of crawls
out of a digital world like a snake and it creeps into your
computer and out into the energy field.
And that's how I think about Bitcoin is like.
It's like the longer we've got this tap connecting Bitcoin to
our energy field, the the more it is going to get entangled and
start like consuming more energy.
And now, if we think about it, I think Bitcoin's only goal is
100% total addressable market of energy.
Like if bitcoins got One North Star, that's it.
Not Displace money, not energy. Is everything right like?
Energy bullshit. Anything to do with money is
totally unrelated because energy is the root of money.
So if it is the heaviest energy Ledger in the world, it will be
the heaviest money in the world. Like.
That's just no two ways. Money is energy, right?
It's it's it's the only reason change energy between us.
The only reason we have money is an arbitrary way of slicing up
the finite amount of energy that we have on our planet, or we
believe we have. So if we had infinite money,
we're gonna have infinite energy, basically.
But there is. Yeah, I mean, sorry.
So if we have infinite energy, we don't have money.
And so that's basically we if we if we all knew how to produce
our own energy. Forget the politics of it all,
but just think conceptually. If we all know how to produce
our own energy and I produce everything myself, I ain't going
to ask you for anything because I can do it all myself and I've
got machines. OK, so trick or challenging
question, you've you are Tesla adapt as well.
If free energy exists, we don't need Bitcoin.
If free energy exists, we don't. You can have Bitcoin if you
want, but. That's a redundant system now.
Right? Then there's no.
You don't need it because my Bitcoin is the evolution of
money. But money.
Money dies eventually. Like right now, money in the US
dollar is like terminally ill. But money is an arbitrary
premise and it everything is arbitrary unless it's energy.
That's why everything is a proxy or representation of energy and
time. So everything has got a currency
of time because it's really scarce.
So how would we make decisions if we live forever?
Our decision making can be far different to us now.
In the same way. How would we, how would we
function as a species if we didn't have money?
It would probably change all of our thoughts and change you
would be much more aligned. Firstly, because we have no
self-interest cock blocking me from trying to Basically, I'm
trying to shoot on you and you're trying to shoot on me
because I've got self-interest that you might be taking from
me. And that's what happens in a
finite resource world. But again, the universe and the
galaxies and all that, it's huge.
They're big, storming balls of magnetism spewing out
everywhere. It's like we're bathing in a
it's like the ocean is made of petrol.
That's what it is. Like, think about that.
The ocean made of petrol, and you're on a boat and you've run
out of fuel and you're looking for fuel.
That's the equivalent. Earth is a boat in the middle of
the ocean, and the ocean is. Basically gigantic pools of
magnetic storms and all we need to do.
Imagine if you had a lighter and you're on your boat and you go,
holy shit, or you just, you stuck a straw out the side of
your boat to siphon it into your tank.
That's literally what the earth is going to be end up.
That's how it ends up happening. Like for us as a species, we'll
start tapping into that sort of energy field, the higher energy
field. Like, Tesla talked about this
quite a lot. Which is sort of like we've gone
down this path of Fiat money and I'd like to say Fiat physics
almost, which is like a lot of the quantum mechanics and all
this sort of stuff where we think it's the highest field or
the highest order of, you know, understanding in our scientific
brains. Look, I might be wrong here, but
I'm going to go on and say quantum mechanics is a shit
coin. And I'll say that because true
story. And here's here's an example if
you guys want one. Someone makes a huge
breakthrough in anything. Satoshi, right?
Satoshi makes a huge breakthrough.
What happens straight after the breakthrough happens.
All the hanger honour is, oh, it's this, but it's better.
Oh, we've done, we've copied Bitcoin, but we've tweaked this,
we've changed the speed, we've changed the supply, we've
changed, we've fixed it. Dude, quantum mechanics is
fixing it. It's exactly that.
Like Tesla had no bar over any of the quantum mechanics,
really. Like he was always a step ahead
of it, like he would. Tester just knew what the field
was. So the field is like if the
universe is our 3D universe, there's an energy field in which
that sits, which is sort of like a fifth dimension.
So tester's like just like anyone studying cryptography.
It's like your public key is not the important thing.
Your private key is just like in Earth.
If the whole universe has a private key that's coming from a
higher field, then we may as well study that first, because
that's going to show us how the rest of everything is
influenced. And so that's what Tesla
studied, was the field and Einstein studied the universe.
And that's where we've got this mixture.
So all these people studying the universe are like, oh, Einstein
was sort of right, but like quantum mechanics has this and
that. And Einstein was always like,
Nah, dude, like this shit looks like deterministic.
More like, you know, it's not so statistical and probability
orientated and shit, but all these dudes are trying to make
names for themselves and trying to answer questions that no one
asks. Like half of the shit in quantum
physics is. Like, honestly, it looks like
Cadano. Like, I like all that kind of
shit like Cadano and Affinity, literally.
It's like and people are like, Oh yeah, but what about that
theorem? But isn't that a distraction
from the real thing? What, dude?
All these theorems that people make up and talk about, they're
like, yeah, I found something in math.
So it's a whole theorem now. It's like, it's the equivalent
of like Vitalic starting Ethereum and saying oh.
This is the Fatalic chain. And then Justin Sun starting
Justin Chain. Everyone names their theorems
after themselves. If you think of the theorem like
the chain that's improving mathematics, these theories.
Oh, I've got a quantum theory. I've got this.
No one has done shit in 100 years, basically.
So what are they? A distraction often.
What are they? What?
What is the thing that they should?
Be studying their own farts. They're they're basically they,
but what should they be studying?
What? What should it be?
Nikola Tesla's work. Everyone on earth that has any
interest in energy at all. There this is.
This is not even a debate if you're a physicist.
If you want a Nobel Prize, meet me at my house and I'll tell you
why you're wrong. Like this is not even
questionable. He is the go him him.
And most of the old school thinkers are way better.
And Einstein was sort of. Einstein knew this.
Einstein looked at Tesla. Tesla looked at Newton.
I think right. When Tesla looked at Newton and
stuff, dude, Tesla was drawing everything in his mind.
Because if you know cause and effect so well, because you
understand the universe, how well it works, right?
If you had a master equation for the university, understood, then
you would understand cause and effect very well, right?
And you if you could do that on the micro scale where you could
almost say. You can predict the future in a
way because you understand all the different permutations that
can happen. And I think, look if we wanted
to take, if we were taking energy seriously, which I know
no one is, it's if we were taking it seriously, we would
all have like humanity would stand still for a moment and
read Nikola Tesla's work until every single person that is paid
by anyone for anything energy related would do that.
And then in five years time we would probably be.
I don't know. Masters of the masters of the
Universe, basically. And so that makes me think,
yeah, just find it. It's so interesting that he
never got the dignificate. Like he didn't get dignified.
His work was so intimidating almost.
And but the fact is, he was like, Nah dude.
It's gotta be simple. Like the universe is so complex
that it has to have a simplicity to it can't.
Not because it's just too many arbitrary chance things
happening and so basically it should be hard also to discover
it if it's. Well, I don't know, I'm just
thinking like it should also not be hard to discover it like how
it works because. Think about the origin of all
the other stuff. Exactly.
Everyone should be. It should be fair for everyone,
right? And so there's no premium if the
universe is fair. And what does universe have in
common with Bitcoin? 100% up time kind of thing.
Like this idea that it doesn't go down.
So if you think about the universe, let's say you're
sitting there, it's a job interview and you've got to work
for the universe. It's like, and you're an
engineer or something. You'd be like Oi, who the fuck
made is like? Do I get to meet the dude that
made this or anything? Because I've never seen a
distributed system that has 100% up time and I just wanted to
give them a really big Congrats on on making that.
And that's basically God or whoever that made a universe.
It's had a 100% up time. I'm still here.
You're still here. It's still here.
Like, is that also what you would say?
I I tweeted this last week like, I never grew up like religious.
I always thought I was like atheist or maybe agnostic or
something. But the more I also dove into
Bitcoin, but also more into the into the universe and all these
things like literally what you just said, it's a system up
until like the highest like cosmos, universe level, all the
way down to DNA and stuff like it's a system and a system has
to be engineered, right? A system cannot be random,
especially not when on multiple planes of the system there are
parts working together, right? They're.
All like it's like so yeah, so it's designed, it's designed so
somewhat something or some who or something or somewhat.
Whoever when we think it has to be designed right.
Yeah, when we think about God making the universe or something
like we used to think like okay and then birds could eat fish
and it's like, Oh yeah, that'd be heaps good.
And then? The fish could eat other fish.
Oh yeah, And then what if it rains as well?
And then that transfers some of the particles from the water
down to the OK, some trees turn around right, the, the, the and
then. We have this other thing like
wind. It's sort of like, you know,
it's like the elements of the distribution channel for the
equation. So you've got.
If it's all random, it also has to go wrong at the edges.
Of course 100 or in multiple places on multiple levels as
well and that's not really how it how it works.
So, yeah, it's designed. Yeah, that's kind of like I had
that realization I think, but. But you know, just like a few
weeks ago. If this recording lives on
forever like you know, because right now, I think right now we
can't understand Tesla's work because Tesla didn't have a
social media account posting all this shit, right?
It's annoying like that, but think about how much clearer.
The past will be to the future. In the future.
And what I mean is like, we have these handwritten, half baked
coffee stained notes on what Einstein thought.
But imagine if we had, you know, 600 hours of interviews with him
or so. You know, like, it's like, fuck
what We could learn the let's just the download to the real
download, yeah. Unbelievable.
So I think the future is going to have a better time with
history than we did because they will have a more pure historical
Ledger. As where as full of ambiguity,
full of, he said she said Full of you know different things,
but you know moving forward, the coordination behind you know the
Bitcoin block height is the time stamp of humanity.
Like that is, that is humans. If if you have a latitude and
longitude for Earth, then where on Earth is it?
But when in the universe is it? So the Z axis would be the block
height. And so that's how I think, I
feel like we're going to converge on a unified clock.
Which is the block height. And that's gonna be because
machines and humans will be too entangled and too hard to sort
of just determine who's what. So I think is that different?
Is that different than what we currently use this time then?
It is because what we're gonna do is say my local time doesn't
matter. The global clock matters more
than me. And once we start saying that as
a species where we operate on the global clock more than we
operate on the local stuff, I think that's going to be really
influential because machines are going to sort of increase the
population of the planet basically from like 8 billion to
like probably 14 billion. And when I say machines, I mean
any sentient anything online as well.
All devices shit like that. So if we think about that world,
what does it look like with machines and man, and how do we
discern well who's who? Yeah, I just think, I think
that's becomes a sort of forgot where I was going with that.
But basically the population's going to increase
astronomically. The machines are probably going
to be the last ones using money. Actually, we'll we'll stop using
money before machines, I reckon. I'm.
I'm interested to see where that, where that goes.
I love. I love this man.
We went all over the place, just as I expected.
No, I love it. No, no, no, I love it.
I think we can talk for way, way, way longer.
I want to finish with my last question.
I asked everyone the same thing. What's a core belief that you
will never let go? Prime numbers are the most
important thing that humanity will ever understand.
That's not an important thing. I'll put my money where my mouth
is and I'll say I guarantee that in 20 years, that's what we all
think. That's my guess.
Awesome.
Well, we have a time stamp, so. Yeah.
In 20 years. We'll we'll check in.
We'll check in. All right.
Thanks, man. Yeah.
To to to wrap it up. Like where can people follow
your crazy farts? Yeah dude.
So I put it all on GitHub for anyone to look at.
It's called Mike D123 slash energy.
So it's Mike. D is my username.
Yeah, I'll link to it. I'll link to.
It and I also created a ChatGPT, a custom GBT with all the work
in it, so you can basically and it's got all like time locks and
stuff about time Bitcoin, Bitcoin, Timelock Explorer.
So it's a custom GBT. I'll send you a link to that if
you want. It's really cool to use because,
yeah, cool. Yeah, it's cool Fun anyway.
Other than that, just come say hi to me if you see me in
person. Awesome.
Well, thanks so much and I think we will continue this in the
future again. So keep in touch.
Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it.
Cheers man. Bye.
I hope you enjoyed this episode. If you did, it would be amazing
if you could rate, review and subscribe on the podcast
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You can follow and connect with me on Twitter.
I'm Bram K That's at BR AM K, and if you are or know someone
who has an interesting perspective on Bitcoin that's
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hope you'll be here for the next episode.
Thanks for listening. Bye.