Hey there. It's from Konstein.
And in this episode of Bitcoin for Millennials, I'm joined by
Matt Manning. He's a writer, coach, and the
mind behind The Liminal Leap, where he explores how Bitcoin,
AI and human consciousness are transforming the world and our
place in it. I don't think most of the
general population sees that the old system is already dying.
It's falling away. In this conversation, we'll
unpack how Bitcoin cracked open his worldview, how paradigm
shifts in consciousness are unfolding, and why the
intersection of Bitcoin, AI, and evolving human awareness matters
now more than ever. If you enjoyed this episode,
please like this video on YouTube and subscribe on here or
follow me on your favorite podcasting platform to help me
reach more people and spread the message of Bitcoin even further.
I hope you enjoyed this episode. Now let's dive in.
All right, Matt Manning, welcome to Bitcoin for Millennials.
Brown, thanks for having me. I'm looking forward to the
conversation. Likewise, man, I love that you
are focusing on Bitcoin, AI and consciousness.
Those are probably the three topics that I think about every
day. So I think we'll have a really
nice conversation around that and I hope the people listening
will will enjoy it. But before we dive in, I I saw
that you had a pretty successful career in tech and sales, but at
one point you had to realization that you didn't want to do that
anymore and you walked away. What was kind of like the moment
or realization that made you decide to focus on, you know,
Bitcoin AI unconsciousness? Yeah, it was.
It was kind of a gradually and then suddenly type experience.
So, you know, we can get more into the story, but Bitcoin
initially is what kind of cracked me open.
It was such a paradigm shift for me that I started to question
everything essentially. And you know, over a number of
years that that led to pretty big identity shift.
And I had studied psychology and it always been interested in
kind of consciousness and some of the more inner work.
And I started to feel pulled back to that.
You know, I had a successful career, like you mentioned, in
sales. And then at some point, you
know, I was like, I'll eventually get back into that.
And then, you know, about four months ago, I like it hit me and
I just went for it. Yeah, I quit my job 4 1/2 months
ago. And just kind of following my
heart and, and trusting that that something's emerging, but
I'm sensing into that humanity is going through such a massive
shift that we need more and more people to, you know, step
outside of the normal and be willing to create something new.
Yeah. So what was it that made you
either go into Bitcoin or or see more than what what you perhaps
initially thought that Bitcoin would bring you?
I mean, this is a common theme that people have.
You know, I think practically it's like, you know, when once
you realize that you were lied to about money, which is
arguably the most important technology that people use to
communicate with each other. Right, Yeah, You know, Bitcoin,
I got into it in 2018 after the the bull run up to like 20 K and
I didn't know too much about it, but it crashed back down and I
had some friends that started to kind of give me the blockchain
crypto pitch. And I got in and, you know, put
a little bit of money in. And my personality is one that
once I'm into something, I like to understand it really deeply.
So I went pretty deep down the rabbit hole in the first year
was like kind of confusing to try to sift through all the
noise with Bitcoin versus crypto.
And I couldn't figure out what the crypto people were talking
about. And eventually I kind of settled
on the Bitcoiners. Like they were talking about the
biggest problems in the world, you know, first principles, big
macro problems, inflation, money printing, energy, geopolitics,
all of that. And so, you know, I started to
really deconstruct the whole system.
And yeah, I came to that conclusion that you mentioned,
that everything I thought I knew about money and that I had been
taught about money was wrong. And it was such a paradigm shift
that that caused me to start questioning, well, if I was
wrong about that. And you know, the things I've
been taught about that, like what else, what other basic
assumptions that I have that I've just been taught, whether
it's from my family, from a school system, from society in
general, like what else am I missing?
And that really started me to start questioning and, and
looking pretty deeply at my most basic assumptions.
And that led to a whole, you know, I say Bitcoin is an ego
test in a lot of ways. You have to, you have to be
willing to admit you were wrong. But in my, in my experience,
it's kind of a warm up. Some of the deeper consciousness
ego tests are the real tests. And, you know, I don't think
they're, they're two separate things.
I think Bitcoin is a catalyst for, for some shifts that are
happening globally. Yeah.
So many things to pull on, I think, I think on one side there
is some, some courage needed that I, I didn't know I had that
in a sense to really challenge what I thought was my
understanding of a certain topic, right?
Or anything I attached to that. And realizing that I was doing
that in a totally unconscious way.
Just sitting with that realization I think was already
very interesting, right? Like just just getting there but
then being triggered to a degree.
Yeah, similar to you. Like I started to listen to the
Bitcoiners pretty heavily, like 2019, you know, about a year
after I'd gotten in and gravitated toward Bitcoin, only
I didn't, I didn't really see the use case for crypto.
And and then, you know, COVID happened and everything that
these Bitcoiners have been talking about, I like light
bulbs started to go off. And frankly, during that period,
I was quite, I got really pessimistic about the world when
I started to understand like where the financial system was
going, the end game and all of the manipulation.
And, you know, I, I felt like I was in the matrix because I was
seeing things that, you know, and I would bring it up and
people didn't, didn't really agree with it.
My family, yeah, I was kind of there, thought I was a little
bit crazy. But yeah, similar to your
experience where, you know, it was kind of an invitation.
And then from there, you know, I think the other thing that kind
of opened me up and looking back on it, I was projecting a lot of
my own anxiety internally onto like the global situation.
And I I had had pretty significant anxiety since a
pretty young age. And, you know, just my nervous
system was kind of high on high alert all the time.
And then, you know, I'm going through that kind of, well, I
was probably in my early 30s, like 3 young kids and you know,
one of them was special needs. And so like I was just feeling
the pressure and, and so I started to do more meditation
and going inward with like some of the, the questions around
like why, why does my anxiety? Why am I like this and why, why
do I react certain ways to different to different
situations? And yeah, studying meditation
and developmental psychology really kind of led to a profound
identity shift. But I find like in that journey
of like, you know, I think globally we're on this
evolutionary journey society, It's at a critical juncture.
I, I call it a liminal moment where the old is passing away
and the new hasn't quite yet been birthed.
Like we have to create something new.
And I find that that happens personally as well in our own
personal developmental journeys is like, you have to let the old
that has served you well pass away for something new to emerge
and you have to be OK with some volatility.
And so Bitcoin in a way is like training for to be able to like
find a place of stillness amongst all this volatility and
hold and like trust the longer term pattern that's emerging.
And so, yeah, I started to see these connections between like
the inner side of, of how we develop and how society is
developing. And yeah, it was.
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There are so many people that have a similar experience,
right? I think I'm.
I'm also one of them in a sense that yeah, when you're triggered
about something that you realize that you had no clue about,
right. So money in this case, and you
start going down the rabbit hole of studying, you know, what is
actually money? Why?
You know what is Bitcoin?
Why would that be a solution? Why not all the other cryptos
and whatnot, right. And you eventually, I wonder
what it is for you, but I got to the point where I now see, you
know, the, the data in the Bitcoin blockchain or in the
time chain rather, right? Like the Ledger of Bitcoin is
basically engineer truth. It's the ultimate truth of this
system. That's the whole point of this
system, is that there's a base layer of truth upon which people
do things. They they act with an incentive
that's aligned to this truth at at this base layer.
Yeah, and I'm starting to see it like more clearly as I've
studied some of the more like Eastern, you know, meditative
like these paths at that some of these mystical traditions have
been talking about for thousands and thousands of years.
And when you overlay it with the Bitcoin or journey, like there's
so many similarities in that, like, Hey, reality isn't
actually exactly how you've constructed it to be a lot of
what your reality is. It's just a story that you've
created to have certainty and to you know, and and that's, that's
useful as we grow up, like we need that children need rules
that are black and white and they need certainty to be able
to grow. And and then at some point, you
know, something cracks and you realize that maybe reality isn't
exactly like I thought it was. And you know, you start to see
something new. And then from there, like my
experience is like you want to tell everybody about it, right?
Like Bitcoin, you want to just, you want to talk to every person
about it. And especially early on in my
journey, I'm not sure how this was for you, but I was really
into like trying to convince people about Bitcoin, but it was
probably coming from a place of just needing to be right.
Like, hey, I've thought about this, I'm right.
And people would sense into that.
And it wasn't received as as well.
And that's similar in like the consciousness, you know, a lot
of people want to start talking about it like, hey, you know,
like people go do these psychedelic experiences.
Hey, reality isn't as it seems. And they want to preach and, and
be right about it. But then over time, you start to
realize that people are going to be ready for it when they're
ready for it. And there's less of this need to
be right. And I think that's where the
maturity starts to come in. And so I'm starting to just see
so many parallels between the Bitcoiner journey and this
journey of consciousness that it, you know, in my experience
is a, they're both very deep rabbit holes.
Yeah, I'm trying to tell more people about Bitcoin.
I I know what this is and I also know that I cannot Orange Bill
other people like you, Orange Bill yourself, right.
So whether there are, I don't know, 2000 people that by
listening to my podcast eventually get into Bitcoin or
two people doesn't really matter.
It would be cool if there's more, but if there's two, right,
like, I don't know, like I get a message, I think every week from
someone like that is already enough.
No messages is also enough in that sense, right?
So yeah, it's more from okay. I feel that this is something
that is valuable and more people should know.
That's why I'm doing this. But I'm I'm I'm okay with where
I'm at internally. Like there is yeah, validation
needed anymore. Yeah.
And what I'm starting to see is that, you know, even Bitcoin,
like I'm super bullish on Bitcoin and I think it's a total
catalyst to a whole new world that is going to be created.
Like the old systems. I don't think most of the
general population sees that the old system is already dying.
It's falling away. And you know, we have the
opportunity to build something new.
And you know, the base layer is, is we're so early.
There's so many things that are going to be built on top of it
to enable the future of humanity.
And same with AI, but I'm also starting to tap into it's not
just technology that is going to do that.
Like the technology itself is only as good as the
consciousness behind what's being created on it.
So with AI, if we don't evolve consciousness and have more
awakened hearts and people that are in it for the right reasons,
then because if not, we'll just create the same problems we did
in the old system on top of new technology.
And same thing with Bitcoin. And so, you know, I think
Bitcoin fixes a lot of things, but Bitcoin and AI without more
awakened consciousness and people who are much more aware
of of their own ego, their own projections and being able to
step back and see all the different perspectives and
include all sorts of different ideas.
Like that's what we need. And I think Bitcoin helps to do
that because like in my own journey, Bitcoin was the
catalyst. And if you adopt the Bitcoin
standard overtime money that gets more valuable, you have
more time and you can, you can get out of that fight or flight
mode where you just having to do anything to provide for your
family to beat inflation, to do all these things that it gives
people time to actually connect to their heart and connect to
their soul and connect to what matters and build something
real. So like, I think the two things
are very interconnected, But I, I also am very passionate that
we need more maturity emotionally, even among
Bitcoiners. Like I think Bitcoiners are very
altruistic and sometimes the whole like shouting and like
crypto Bitcoin maximalism can be good.
I also think we have an opportunity to kind of like
upshift our messaging and and have it come out of more out of
love instead of like we're right, you're wrong.
I agree. You know, eventually we are all
in this together. So, and I'm with you, like I
think we need all sorts of different voices and there's a
time and a place for the more, you know, aggressive messaging
because sometimes that's what people need.
I also think that like generally speaking, that's the type of
messaging we have that leads to more and more polarity and
division. And so, you know, I think it's
as Bitcoin evolves, we're going to have to get more mature in
how we how we message and how we connect to people and that they
can feel the place that it's coming from.
And yeah, and I see that more and more like I love Bitcoiners,
like the philosophical spiritual aspects of Bitcoin are starting.
I've been waiting for that type of conversation in the last
year. It's like really starting to
ramp up. So I'm really optimistic for
where things are and and there's a time and a place to tell
someone to have have fun staying.
For it is figuring out this duality that you have, right?
Like on the one side that we are all the same.
We are all you know, this is this is my current understanding
now, right? Or what I think is most
probable, like we, we are all like an individual piece of
consciousness from the eternal consciousness.
And you are in your meat suit and I'm in my meat suit, right?
And eventually we are, we are all the same, but just our
experience right now here is different with different, you
know, the challenges and opportunities and and etcetera.
And you know, if you constantly approach it like that, I think
it's really nice to see everyone as equal.
But in the practicality, you know, that's more in the
metaphysical realm. But in the, in the, in the, in
the physical reality, you, you do see all these different types
of actions that, that people do right and opinions that they
hold. And, you know, if they're lazy
or actually doing the work. And I think, you know, when we
talk about the whole corruption of money, it is because of, you
know, other people in this physical reality that are
actually, I'm using a system in an in an abusive way, right?
So I think that just that tension is interesting.
Yeah, there's certainly a lot of tension and it's it's coming to
the forefront. And I actually think the
tension, like tension is good. In my experience, leaning into
tension and discomfort on the other side of that is growth.
And we're seeing that globally and systemically.
Like there's a lot of tension happening and you know, we have
there's, there's on the, when you're talking about duality,
like there's, there's a, a myriad of different
possibilities. I I'm quite optimistic about
what can be born for humanity this next 5 or 10 years and
there is going to be increasing polarization because some ideas
let's let's be honest, like people we can respect and and
give respect to different opinions.
That doesn't mean we have to agree and that all ideas are
equal. There are things that are
objectively better than others. And so, yeah, we need to be able
to to come up with solutions that that can create the new
systems for what's emerging. Because let's be honest, like,
and, and I think millennials, like your audience, millennials
have a big role to play on what's going to be created for
the, for the world that's emerging.
You know, I think they're the an archetypal kind of generation
that's in between. We were born with technology,
but just as it was emerging. So we kind of see what's, what's
taking place. And I think we have a, a big
role to play in, in what's going to emerge.
But yeah, I, I totally agree with you that detention is, is
good. And on the other, on the flip
side of it, like if we get it wrong and we don't upshift
consciousness and it's still like this, this dualistic
fighting forever, we'll just have new technology to like
accelerate the demise of what didn't work in the existing
system. Yeah, which is obviously a nudge
to AI that that we'll get into. But before we dive into that,
yeah, you know, there's a more global shift in consciousness
happening, you know, true paradigm shifts, if I may, You
know, how based on what you've studied and, and come across,
how do you look at what is happening there and maybe a bit
more in general to take people along, Like how do individuals
and and yeah, societies evolve through, you know, breakdown,
insights, integration, growth, etcetera, like this, this kind
of like eternal loop of, of their development.
Yeah, I've done a lot of studying.
One of my interests is developmental psychology.
So, you know, for those that are interested, I don't want to get
too into the weeds of, you know, developmental theory, people's
eyes will glaze over. But you know, people like Ken
Wilber, if people are interested in looking at his frameworks,
they've, they've really influenced me.
The, you know, the gist of, of that, that domain, it's come
online in the last 50 or so years.
And it's that individuals, you know, we see it in childhood,
like children grow through different stages of
consciousness. New capabilities come online and
it's like a, it's a nested system.
So very much like Bitcoin, you need the base layer to be
healthy and then there's new capability and more complexity
that comes online with each new phase of consciousness or
growth. And so there's different shifts
that happen. We don't need to go into detail
into all of the exact shifts, but they're finding that those
same shifts happened throughout adulthood.
So adults continue to develop new capacities come online and
you're able to hold more complexity.
And it's not to say that those base layer really black and
white things that you learned as a as a child aren't, aren't
useful anymore. You have to build on top of them
and know what to use when. And so individuals develop
through these and to shift at certain stages is profoundly
disorienting because you have to shed what you thought and who
your identity had been built to let something new emerge.
And so, you know, that happens in like midlife crisises that
people are going through. There's an identity shift that's
happening. And you know, if you, if you're
not willing to let go of the old identity and let something new
emerge, that can get really hairy and, and challenging.
And so, but those same shifts that happened for individuals,
society goes through those exact same stages as a collective.
And so, you know, my opinion is that right now we're going
through a, a pretty big shift in a developmental stage within
society. And that leads to a lot of
discomfort because the old systems that used to work and
that were beneficial for us, that got us through the
industrial revolution, you know, that that we could, we could
create so many great things out of all of a sudden the, the
Internet comes along and AI comes along and these systems
just are not built for the speed of technology and the economic
system that needs growth and debt and consumption forever and
more jobs and all of those things.
We've got these deflationary forces fighting exactly against
it. And so there has to be a new
operating system. So that's what I look at like
each stage of development, it's kind of like upgrading the OS to
this new operating system and it builds on the old, you know,
there's things that were built on the old OS that you still
need, but you need a whole a whole new operating system.
And so that's where I think we're at collectively.
And you know, it's technological and it's in, it's distinctly
related to consciousness. So my experience in making these
big shifts is that it can be really hard and you can go
through some disorienting periods.
And I think that's what's happening with us globally.
And so, you know, there's a tendency to like resort back to
the old ways. When something new is shifting
that's unknown, you'll actually resort back to like the stage
below because it's more certain. And so that's what I see
happening in government and in these different things is like,
we're grasping back onto the old ways of like authoritarianism
and, you know, people just telling us what's right and
wrong. And that just isn't going to
work. So we have to make space for the
new to emerge. But it's totally unknown.
And it's disorienting because there is no map for what for
what's being built. We have to go build it.
I also saw in another podcast you did, like you mentioned that
consciousness develops in predictable terms, right?
It's not like a like a woo woo type thing, but more like you
mentioned the upgrading the, the operating system, but that goes
through kind of like seasons right there, spring and summer.
And then, you know, that's, that's the seasons of life and
then you have seasons of death and you have to prepare for the
new year again, right? And so I think what we're
talking about is those seasons, but on a different level of
where, you know, humanity is in in time and space.
And I think this is a nice segue into AI there.
There is a reason that AI and and Bitcoin and this larger
global shift in consciousness are happening at the same time,
because like you said, how are you going to value the extreme
deflationary forces that AI brings as a technology?
Like you cannot do that with the system that we've used to value,
or at least price value, right, which is an inflationary force.
And I think, you know, in, in Broken Money, Lynn Alden's book,
she, she talks about this. And I think like that
illustration is very, very powerful.
Then you see that there's this this war going on between these
forces that are basically going against some sort of natural way
of change that just constantly happens.
Yeah, there's, there's definitely a natural evolution.
And the more I look at it in these different frameworks and
all of these frameworks are just frameworks, they're just models.
So, you know, like at some point even those models breakdown and
we can't, those can't become a religion that we're so, you
know, invested in that. It's the only way to view
things. But I do think some of the
models are helpful. And, you know, while you're
talking, it's interesting, I think of like the 4th turning.
I'm sure you're familiar with the 4th turning model.
So there's that model and then there's, you know, all sorts of
different models from different indigenous people, you know, the
Kali Yuga. And what I'm seeing is like all
of these models are converging on this time, like these next 10
years or so. Like so many of the models are
coming together pointing to massive change in humanity.
And and then when you overlay it with the kind of developmental
psychology models of the evolution of consciousness, I'm
just starting to trust it that like this is how change happens.
And you look at it across history, there's massive
paradigm shifts that have to happen.
And there's usually wars fought around it and massive breakdown
and like a lot of suffering. But that's what has to happen
for the new to emerge. And yeah, like I'm with you, AI.
Yeah, like the, the more you study the the monetary system, I
mean, try to make an argument for how this thing ends on the
existing system, There's not a lot of intelligent arguments
about how we fix the problems. It's just kicking the can down
the road and it's getting more and more clear.
It's the it's the root of so much of our dysfunction.
And yeah, for it to continue to work, we need more money, more
debt, more jobs. We need more everything.
Like Jeff Boost said, you can't fix the climate crisis within
that system because you have to have consumption forever.
And so people think you can just throw more money at it.
And then AI is coming in and taking jobs away.
It's the productivity increases. I don't think, I don't think
we're quite ready for what's going to happen with AI.
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of your. Or, you know, one way that I
look at it in some of these different traditions, like, you
know, in the, in the Buddhist and, and in some of the more
Eastern traditions, the yogic system, some of the systems in
India and, and in the East in general, they're talking,
they've talked for a long time how there's knowing in the mind,
there's knowing in the heart and there's knowing in the body.
And my opinion is that largely in the West, we've just
worshipped the intellect in the mind.
And if you're smart, like that's, that's one way of
knowing in the mind is very powerful.
But all of a sudden, like AI is severely outpacing our capacity
for ones and zeros and binary mathematical logic and
connecting ideas. And so, you know, what's the
differentiator now from US versus AI?
And it's a nervous system, it's a heart, it's a body, it's
intuition and being able to contextualize all of this data.
And, and so I think we have an opportunity with AI to like
really tap into our nervous systems and have more regulated
nervous systems because I think the existing financial system,
the incentives make it so our our nervous systems are like
totally over stimulated. You know, the mental health,
anxiety, depression, all that is on the rise.
And with this freedom that AI is going to bring, we have to learn
to actually and bought be embodied.
And I think that's going to be a trend for the next, you know,
little bit. And the people who are most
regulated and who are most embodied are going to have
superpowers compared to the rest of society.
So many things I'm thinking about.
You just said Kali Yuga, which I think it's interesting because
that touches, you know, so the so the, the Kali Yuga is like
the, you could say like the, the cosmological phase that we're in
or the astrological phase that we're in, however you approach
that, right? So we're, we're, however we are
moving to true the, the universe, you know, our, our
solar system, etcetera, you know, moves, moves in cycles and
it goes from basically true these seasons right from light
to dark. And the Cali Yuga is the is, is,
is like the winter of of that, right?
So we're moving from that space in space basically to, to
something new, right? And so if you believe that we
are guided by something that is bigger than us, like literally
our place in, in the in, in, in the universe, then that is
something that is affecting, you know, our little meat suits here
on, on, on Earth. And so that's why that you could
see that it's a very natural thing and that like new, like
the problems that are arising, but also the the solutions that
are, that are bubbling up, right?
That I think, you know, we're mentioning here, like Bitcoin,
Bitcoin and AI are are are there for a reason.
But how do we, how do we then? So I just want to touch upon
that because you said Kelly, you guy, I think it's just, you
know, for the for the people that are interested in that,
Like it's when you dive into this consciousness rabbit hole
again, right? There's there's parts of
yourself that you find, but there's also a lot that you
think is outside of you, but it's actually also happening
inside of you, you know, like that.
Yeah, as above. So below part basically.
Yeah. And just my overarching point,
there is just so many of these models are converging on this
time. So.
Whether you believe in them or not, Like, I just find it like,
I just find it really interesting that like, you know,
across different traditions and across the world, these these
cycles, macro cycles that different cultures have been
tracking, like so many of them are converging right now.
Yeah. And I think there's something to
that, yeah. Maybe a fun side fault is that
that cycle is 28,000 years. So do you think that after one
cycle people figured out this was multiple side?
This was an actual cycle, right? It happens again?
Or do you at least need a minimum of two of these cycles
to have some sort of, you know, guess probability as to that?
This is something that continues.
So if you if you calculate that and then think about how far
advanced you should be as a civilization, you will also end
up in some corner realizing that what you think you know about
civilization and how far they were in terms of technology and
understanding the universe is also not aligned with the
reality of this knowledge being present as well.
Right. So yeah.
And my thoughts are that, you know, this evolutionary process
is really big and really long and can take a lot of time for
humanity to evolve. And everything I'm seeing is
pointing to like what we're about to go through in the next
10 years being such a seismic shift that like, you know, what
happens in centuries is going to happen in a few years.
Like the, the amount of progress is, is really is going to be
really fast. And I don't, I don't.
So that's where I think it, it requires a whole new operating
system in our nervous systems and the way we think, the way we
engage with each other. I'm really excited about it.
And I'm I'm inspired by the millennial kind of group.
And I think that's why I'm excited to be on this podcast
because I think millennials have a deep role to play in what's
what's happening. So, yeah, well.
I think we are in the place where we are moving into further
adulthood 1. I think in further power 2
right, Like so, so people are growing up, they're moving into
certain positions, they're moving into wards more, more
wealth, so. Yeah, more influence.
Yeah, exactly. So they have they have more,
more influence. So understanding the shifts that
are happening and I think either what you can do with it or how
you can contribute to it are are two very big topics and I think
are under discussed. So I'm happy we are having this
this conversation like, but how, how can we make this more
practical? Like how can people view, I
think we touched upon Bitcoin a bit, but like Bitcoin and AI as
these external catalysts for these, these internal inquiries
or shifts in, in consciousness. Like how have you experienced
that? Or maybe how, how have you, what
have you learned from, from other people that yeah, kind of
this journey? Yeah.
I mean, my view is that decentralization is this just
overarching theme that's happening.
And it's not just in the financial system.
Like I see it happening in spirituality where people don't
want to outsource like to some organization to just tell them
what to believe. They want to experience it
themselves. And so I think decentralized
spirituality, the realization that like you were talking about
how we're all one. And it's my belief that we're
like the human, we are the supercomputer and we are all
each a node on the network that's connected through ways
that aren't typical, like we can't access through the typical
human senses. But there's, there's a deeper
connection that's happening. And so when you kind of exit the
matrix and start to see life in a different way, when you go
inward and you start to connect to like your own heart, your
own. Your soul, what you're good at,
your own passions, like the things that you know, like the
question I like to ask is if money weren't a thing, if if I
knew I, if money was taken care of and success was guaranteed,
what would I go do? Like, what am I that passionate
about that I can go build that helps humanity.
And so I think Bitcoin allows us to be able to do that.
And with more and more people tapping into that, like my
belief is that we each have creative capacities and a
purpose within us that can benefit humanity and that we can
have joy and like, have a ton of energy to work toward.
But the existing financial system doesn't allow that.
It stifles creativity from a really young age.
It tells you exactly what to believe.
It just turns into you into a productivity worker that has to
go, you know, just beat inflation and and you're you're
stuck and you can't tap into like those deeper capacities
that are inside of you. And so the more you can do some
of that inner work and deconstruct your own and do some
of that challenging work, I find the more it opens up for you to
be more spontaneous and to like really see what it is that you
can bring to the world. And so if we can get more
Bitcoiners to awaken to that and like really follow their own,
their own souls purpose with the knowledge of Bitcoin and some of
these systems, like we can build so many amazing things on top of
it that can, that can benefit everybody.
And in a deflationary world where where money gets more
valuable over time, we have the time to do that.
And just imagine a world where people are so connected and have
energy because they're doing what they like and they're doing
what they enjoy. I think this next 10 to 15 years
is going to allow us to do that if we get it right.
Yeah, I, I, I fully agree. I don't, I don't think that's a
surprise, but I, I also, I'm just realizing that not many
people are talking about this And, and also how again, you
know, this ties it back to the money.
And I think what you just said is exactly why I said, you know,
the, the broken money also keeps you stuck in this physical
reality or in your body too much, right?
Like feeling that anxiety or the the growing uncertainty towards
the future and the worrying about the future.
Or disconnected from your body because you don't want to feel
that. Like I actually think it's.
Yeah. It's like causing us to not be
connected to our body because it's like, I don't want to feel
that I'm going to numb out with food and Netflix and weed and
beer and, you know, whatever. To just, like, not feel how
challenging reality is. Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, exactly. So yeah, that's what I mean with
the physical reality, like you're, you're stuck in that and
you're staying in that, then there's no real yeah, you.
But people don't have options or are not seeing the the
possibility they have in themselves to, you know, step
out of that. But I think Fiat money is a big
catalyst in. Yeah, fear.
Exploring the. Spiritual money is designed to
keep you. Like, that was part of the
paradigm shift is I just thought, wow, like, in a lot of
ways, we're just modern slaves. And people hear that and they
have a lot of resistance to it. Like, oh, no, look how far we've
come as humanity. And I agree with that.
Like, you know, we don't own slaves.
But in a lot of ways, like, the system just keeps us so
entrenched and it stifles our creativity, our passion.
Like, no wonder the mental health crisis is what it is
because, like, people don't have a lot of freedom to follow what
they're, what they're, you know, system is telling them to do.
Yeah. What we're talking about with
Fiat money is that it's so invisible, like you don't know
that you're a slave to debt because you spend your finite
time and energy to get a reward. That another person that as we
talked about, is the same as you and me in its essence, right,
coming from the eternal consciousness, is using a system
made by other people to gain an advantage over you.
So they can print units of a money at will by the Press of a
button and therefore devalue the reward that you got for
expending your finite energy and time.
And if you just, you know, take yourself out of the equation and
just look at it objectively, you know, trading, you know, as a
human trading finite time and energy for a reward that other
people know better than you can create infinitely at will is the
dumbest thing that you can do. And as long as you're not aware
of that, you're a slave to those people literally, right?
And because also in this, in a debt based money system, when
you take on debt and the units you use to to pay it off get
worth less and less, You know, you were just being put on this
hamster wheel that if you don't understand what you're doing,
which ties into the beginning of our conversation, you are
totally unaware of, of what is happening to you.
And you just think you're, you're doing it because everyone
is doing it right. Yeah, that is what we do.
Life, yeah. Yeah, and it the system needs
more and every generation it takes more money to live the
same kind of a lifestyle. Like if you look at in the 80s
in the US at least, like I look at, you could live on one income
in the 80s and you could have like a house and maybe a
vacation home and like all the things.
And now to like do that, you need two people working and the
amount of debt and leverage that you need to live that kind of
lifestyle. And yeah, the, the whole system
is, is, is extractive, meaning that, you know, they, they steal
your wealth via inflation, but they just want it to be at 2 or
3% so that it's not enough to where you really feel it.
They just wanted to be invisible.
And yeah, this, this question, like if, if someone's new
getting into this, it's like, I just always thought that
inflation was like this natural thing that just happened.
Like things get more expensive. That's, that's just how markets
work. And it's like, no, that's
actually not the nature of a, of a true free market.
That's just because, you know, somebody can create money out of
nothing and it steals from everybody else.
Like the very nature of the Fiat system is based on theft.
Yeah, that's wild. Don't you think that's
realization is, yeah, I think the fork in the road, if you
think when you're listening, well, you know, some some people
that listen regularly know this stuff somewhere or to a deeper
level. But if you're hearing this for
the first time, I think this is exactly what I meant with the
fork in the roads. So don't, don't, don't assume
that what we are saying is correct without doing any of
your research. Do your own research and try to
figure out if what we're talking about is correct or not right?
That's the only way for you to actually get to the fork in a
road. And then think about, OK, what
do I do with this information? Well, one, how do I go through
the confrontation with the fact that I was probably super
unconscious about this part of my reality?
And then after that, it's kind of like, what do I do with this?
Do I ignore this because it's super super uncomfortable?
I'm pretty fucked up. Especially the older you are,
the more fucked up it is I think to realize and the harder also
to. And the more you realize, like,
if you have kids, like, I know you have kids, I have kids, the
more you realize that like, oh, it's just disproportionately
affecting each generation. And millennials have felt it
compared to like the boomer generation.
Just imagine if we continue in this system, like what that's
going to look like for our kids, They will own nothing like that.
You know, that's just how it's going to end up being.
And so, yeah, for that, for that fact alone, for the future
generation, it's a worthy cause. And so when we think about, you
know, the proliferation of AI, the increasingly accelerating
deflationary forces behind that, right?
Like if centuries are going to happen in the, in the next 10
years. And this is how I talk about AI,
like AI is democratizing productivity amongst people, but
also eventually amongst the machines, right?
Yep. So your cognition is enhanced to
a degree, like it's enhanced with this thing in your hands,
right? You're basically a Cyborg with
the phone in your hand. Like the, the, the, the
technology is an extension of your, your body and your brain
to that, to that sense, right? But AI is, is, is a few steps
even further. So on one side, you're enhanced
with this technology. On the other side, your
intellect is also being harvested in a sense by AI,
right? And there will be this global
BLOB of human intellect that's also being democratized.
So yeah, how do you look at that?
Like, how do people. Yeah, I'm thinking about what to
say, like, how what are the risks to the evolving of human
consciousness if we don't understand this?
Because I do feel that if you don't understand what is
happening with AI, it's going to be a big shock when you realize
what is happening, which is this basically dissolvement of your
human intellect. I don't know how else to define
it. Maybe you have a better one.
If you're not prepared for that, it's going to be very hard
mentally. So how do you look at that kind
of like clash that's going on? And maybe also, where does
Bitcoin tie into that for you? Yeah, like with I think
decentralization like I said, is this big theme and that's part
of the risk with AI, as if if AI is just used to centralized more
and more power and control in the hands of a few, which I
think is happening. You see the the amount of
investments going into these big AI companies.
And if there's only a few people that are programming how AI is
responding to everybody, like you can influence the minds of
everyone that's interacting with it through these subtle tweaks.
And so that's a huge risk, in my opinion, is the centralization
of AI. And if it's just used based on
the old consciousness of control and manipulation, then all it's
going to do is just exacerbate the problems that we've had in
the existing system. And so I don't really have any
good answers, but you know, I think one thing is once AI gets
more smart and you need to interact with it with money, why
would an AI accept any money that can just be created out of
nothing? I think Bitcoin will become the
native currency that an AI is going to want to use.
So there's that side of it. And then the other side is this,
how can we create decentralized AI systems where people can have
choice to plug into the, to the models and have it be open
source? And so you can see what the bias
is on what's, what's programmed into it.
Because if we're just trusting these, these big institutions
and if there's been, there's malintent behind it, that's
going to create all sorts of downstream consequences.
And so that's where I think the consciousness piece, like the
the more mature stages of consciousness, you can start to
see all of these complex adaptive systems and the
question becomes like, cool, there's all this technology that
I'm using and it's doing all of these amazing things.
Is it doing good or is it harming people downstream?
And so, yeah, like AI, in my opinion, is only as only as
useful as the consciousness behind it, the human
consciousness that's programming it.
So if we don't have, again, people that are awakened and can
see all these different perspectives and that have
humanity's best interest at heart, then whatever's
programming, it is just going to be programmed for war and hatred
and division and all of the exist, all of the things that
the existing system already does.
It's just putting gasoline on the fire.
So there's a risk, there's a massive risk to it.
And if we can get it right, like there's so much potential, but
it's, yeah, the next 10 years are going to be quite crazy.
Think one of the things that I learned along the way is there's
always a good and bad, right? There's no good without bad, and
there's no bad without without good, and so there's always.
Yeah, yeah, these. Two ways that it could go.
There's always opposition and opposing forces and everything,
yeah. Yeah.
But well, if we go towards the positive direction, you know,
that, that you mentioned, that doesn't mean there will also be
people that, that, that, that aren't doing bad right there.
There will always be people that totally, you know, bad, bad
stuff. And by the way, you know, doing
bad things for one person is actually doing a good thing,
right? So that's also even that the
whole perception of yeah, totally reality.
However, you, you judge that. And so I'm thinking about how,
how do you, how do we make this practical?
I'm thinking you know this is happening anyway.
Yeah, this is happening. Prepare for it, right?
And think about the beginning of the conversation where we talked
about, you know, the data and the Bitcoin time chain is a
truth that you can anchor yourself to.
And once you get there, it's an invitation to also walk or
investigate, you know, the more inward path, path of
consciousness or self realization.
And perhaps getting there could kind of be like the antidote,
like adopting Bitcoin plus trying to develop yourself in a
more conscious way is a way to build a little bubble around you
for the craziness that's going to happen because that craziness
is going to be very hard to predict.
You know, if AI is just a compounding technology in a
sense, I mean, what what's I mean, like I said, it's Bitcoin
AI consciousness for me. So every day I'm working with AI
and trying to build stuff and seeing new tools and whatever it
it's it's, it's crazy how much you can do in so little time and
then to realize that this is the worst that AI will ever be
today, right? It's already better.
And like that, what you can already do is just.
And it's mind. Boggling.
And so I don't even think it's like 100 years in 10 years.
I think it's probably going to be like 1000 years in 10 years,
just from my personal experience with.
I'm with you. Just the pace and seeing what
you can do and so I'm. Hesitant because I don't want to
scare people but I agree with. You, I think, I think it's, it's
way more than you think, to be honest.
Yeah. I don't think we're quite ready
for it. And yeah, to your point, like
that's where I think the more we can get, and this is starting to
make its way into Bitcoin or conversation is like
consciousness, inner work becoming like trusting yourself
as a node and your own inner truth and knowing that there's
something deep within you that you can trust and creating that
capacity. And so, yeah, I'm actually, I
think the more we can get Bitcoin or specifically to like
awakened consciousness, there can be so much good that can be
built. And so yeah, I'm actually, I'm
launching this beta group. I have some ideas around kind of
this Bitcoiner journey and overlaying it with the
consciousness journey, doing some of the meditative breath
work, like the inner work that we're talking about.
And so if anyone's interested that that hears this, they can
reach out. I've got a small group of
Bitcoiners that I'm going to be doing this with to get some
feedback on it. And then I'm going to be
launching some offerings around it where we have, you know,
groups of like 10 or 12 people. And we're comparing this
Bitcoiner journey to this inner work, consciousness journey.
For those that want to go inward and do some of this, this inner
work and, you know, upgrade yourself, upgrade your own ego
and, and learn how to be more embodied and, and come from a
place of wholeness. So that's coming down the road
for me. I'm excited about it.
I love that. That's dope.
See, that's what I love about Bitcoin is that didn't it
invites anyone to eventually create something and participate
and contribute in in their own way.
So I absolutely love that you're doing that.
Are there any like practical steps or, or mindsets you think
people could adopt to kind of like navigate this period of
transition or like how how would you help someone or invite
someone who who is interested in in what we're talking about
into? Yeah, like their next step.
Yeah, I think stillness is really important.
Finding space to like, I think we're over stimulated.
I, I also think that with all of this information and the
constant barrage of like dopamine that our systems are
getting is creating nervous systems that I don't think
humans nervous systems have ever been this overwhelmed in the
history of our evolution. And so, yeah, I mean, I, I don't
think our brains are wired for the amount of information that
we consume. Like it's just never happened
before. And so there's this barrage of
information. And so learning to come and find
stillness, disconnect from, you know, all of the the input and
be able to go inward and like be with yourself, be with.
The uncomfortable feelings and see what's there and really be
like kind to yourself and give your your system space to be
able to relax. That way, when you do engage
with the technology and AI, you can come from a place of
stillness and wholeness and where you're doing it
consciously and you're choosing to build with it as opposed to
like this constant need for more and more dopamine to distract
from what we're actually feeling in the body.
So yeah, a lot of my work is around embodiment, meditative
work, breath work, somatic work, and, and figuring out like, you
know, how is it that my own fears are showing up and what
I'm building? How is it that my own fears are
showing up in my relationships with those that I care about?
Those types of things I think are really important.
And then my experience is when you do some of that inner work
and heal some of the parts of yourself, you know, this human
experience is just overwhelming. We're all dealing with, you
know, different traumas and things that our bodies have have
dealt with and different reactions to it.
And so giving ourselves space to heal and I think to also be
connected to the Earth, time outside in nature is and there's
lots of new research that's that's showing up for that.
And so, yeah, I think it's a return back to like slowing down
a little bit, slow down so you can go fast.
And yeah, I have a lot of other thoughts on it, but I think
inner work to to really heal your own nervous system and come
from a place of wholeness and abundance and stillness is
what's needed in this fast-paced, crazy world that
we're living in. Yeah, I absolutely love that.
I think this is also what we're seeing like more and more people
are moving towards that, although I think we also see the
polarity grow. But I'm, I'm thinking about how
I view Bitcoin is this parallel mirror right to, to Fiat the
money. And so as long as Bitcoin
exists, you have something to to push against this predatory Fiat
money system. And I think when the people that
adopt Bitcoin show that they are less anxious, more happy, more
optimistic about the future, better prepared for this time
where, you know, all these big cycles, but also, you know,
technological advancements in our reality are actually
happening. That if we are better prepared
for that, that will also be an invitation for for the people
that are on this this other path, right?
And they will be looking at us thinking like, why why aren't
they so affected by this craziness here?
Like, why aren't they captured by that?
What am I actually doing right? And then getting to that point
that we started the conversation with.
It's just the realization of am I doing what I'm doing in a
conscious way or not? And if I'm OK enough or brave
enough or however you want to call it to accept that I'm doing
all these things in the totally unconscious way.
OK, what? What do I do now?
Right. And then that is the invitation
to perhaps cross the bridge to yeah, that that other side and
and improving. Totally, and going back to like
what we talked about earlier, there is this we need to like
talk about Bitcoin and spread the the good news to people.
You know, we talked about that and you know, if it's obviously
if it's coming from this need to be right like that can be met
with resistance. But my experience too, like all
the people that I've told about Bitcoin for years, there's an
interesting thing that happens when they just watch you and
your conviction and what it enables for you in your life and
how you're able to embody the values that Bitcoin that you're
preaching. How can you really live that?
Like, that speaks more than any words that you could say.
And that's what I hear you saying is like, oh, people start
to see, hey, what's going on with these Bitcoiners?
I started to see it in 2018-2019 when I was listening to them.
I didn't quite know what they were talking about.
A lot of their ideas made me uncomfortable.
It challenged my worldview, but it felt like they were on to
something and they had a different view on reality.
And then when you watch and see what Bitcoin enables in your
life and you know, don't get me wrong, there's still Bitcoiners
that, that, you know, are doing things for the wrong reasons.
And there's bad actors in Bitcoin, there's bad actors
everywhere. But I think the incentives that
Bitcoin aligns on, on a layer, on a layer of trust where we can
trust and verify in a world that like digitally speaking, it's
getting harder and harder to know what's real and what's not.
And so if you can build on that layer of trust and then allow
yourself to go inward and free up more of your time and
resources on a Bitcoin standard. My own experiences that like, I
can't even believe what Bitcoin has enabled for me.
If you would have told me back in 2018, you know, that I would
like in 2025, I would quit my job and just like try to build
something. I'd have been like, you're
crazy. You know, Bitcoin in a lot of
respects enabled that for me and enabled me to have the, the
shifts internally and to be in a place where I could take that
type of a risk. Yeah, we need more Bitcoiners to
be, to be awakened and to be bold and to live from a, a deep
place within their own soul. And I, I just, I'm totally
inspired by, you know, podcasts like yours in the audience and,
and Bitcoiners in general. I'm so excited to see what we
can build over the next 5 or 10 years.
And it's going to be turbulent. It's going to be difficult.
We're going to be tested. Yeah, I, I agree it's going to
be super, super interesting. I think that's why I am so happy
to have a seat in the stadium to, to and, and, and try to
contribute to see how this all will unfold.
Maybe 2 questions to to wrap up. So looking ahead, what is your
vision for how Bitcoin AI and this evolving consciousness
might shape the future? So either leadership or society
or you know, whatever you want to talk about, but like what?
What is your view of the future? Yeah, I think if we get it
right, Bitcoin, Bitcoin can enable an era of peace and
abundance that we can barely even comprehend.
You know, we're entering a period of, you're already
starting to see it, significant kinetic conflict and wars.
And when you really break it down, the system needs war to
function. There's economic incentives, you
need to create these conflicts and so on, a Bitcoin standard,
everything gets flipped. The incentives of politicians,
of leaders, there is no longer an incentive.
You know, I don't think Bitcoin totally gets rid of like human
nature and you know, the aggression and boundaries and
you know, the things that that create wars.
But on a Bitcoin standard, you better have a damn good reason
to go drop some bombs on people because you're only funding it
through taxation. You can't, you can't create
money out of thin air to fund a war.
And so that's one of the big things that I love about Bitcoin
is that it flips the incentives of those that are in power where
they actually have to do the things that the people want them
to do. And it enables peace.
And I think on a Bitcoin standard and it enables more
people to be connected to their own.
I truly believe that each of us has a reason.
We're here. We're we're each one of one.
There's nobody like Brahm that can do what you do and each
person like, but the system tells us how to act.
And so the more we can step out of the existing system and step
into our our own inner knowing and live from that place and
enter a flow state. If we have so many humans doing
that like I don't, I think the world could get like better than
we can even begin to imagine. I think that's a lovely view of
the future, something I would also love to be a part of.
I I wonder how long it takes before we get there.
But I'm happy we are at least attempting to contribute to to
something like that. And I think that's what like the
more I'm seeing that I don't want to be all sunshine and
rainbows like this, you know, Unicorn guy that has this vision
of this utopia, Because I do think that the next 10 years are
going to be so challenging. And for the old to break down to
enable something like that to emerge, Like the old has to
break down and it's already breaking down.
The old system is dying. And so, but if we can have that
end goal in mind of what could potentially be birthed out of a
breakdown, that gives me the hope to be able to continue
building through what is going to be difficult.
It's just is like, I don't see any other way around it.
And so, yeah, I don't know how long that takes for that type of
a vision, but having more people seeing that that could take
place out of this is what's going to allow us to have hope.
Like that's why, you know, Sailor talks about it.
Bitcoin is hope and I know that you have to do a lot of work to
get to that conclusion, but I think that Bitcoin, what it
enables, is a very hopeful future.
Yeah, yeah, I agree. I am.
I would love to ask you my last question which I asked everyone
the same question, which is what is a core belief that you will
never let go of? That's a very interesting
question, and I think over the years I would have had different
answers to that. My answer is that I I aspire to
live my life in a way that I have strong beliefs, but that
I'm willing to change my beliefs when there's new information
presented. And so I would like to believe
that I'm not attached to my own beliefs so much that I would
never let them go. Even Bitcoin, like I think at
some point even Bitcoin has to be transcended and can't become
the new religion that we're so attached to that it's the only
way of life. So I'm sure there's something
that I would cling to so much that I would resist letting go
of it. But intellectually and from a
philosophical viewpoint, I would hope to live my life in a way
that there is no belief that I would not be willing to let go
of. Awesome, man.
Well, thanks so much for sharing.
Thanks so much for your time and this insightful conversation.
And yeah, let's see what the future holds, man.
Thank you so much. Thanks bro, I enjoyed it.
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