1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:03,360 Coming up in this episode of Bitcoin for Millennials. 2 00:00:03,520 --> 00:00:08,680 As all transactions these days are happening digitally, so on 3 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:12,960 the database somewhere, you know this is the attack factor. 4 00:00:13,320 --> 00:00:18,040 And that's also in a broader game theoretical perspective, 5 00:00:18,120 --> 00:00:19,720 that's where you see this play out, right? 6 00:00:19,720 --> 00:00:22,520 So you have this super tiny bank in the Netherlands. 7 00:00:22,520 --> 00:00:25,680 Where are the databases? Probably some foreign power 8 00:00:25,680 --> 00:00:29,000 knows where these databases are, so if they drop these three 9 00:00:29,000 --> 00:00:32,360 bombs where they have these databases, the entire bank is 10 00:00:32,360 --> 00:00:34,560 gone. Now this is something that is 11 00:00:34,560 --> 00:00:37,200 not in anyone's. Mind right So. 12 00:00:38,120 --> 00:00:40,840 This is so scary also from my perspective. 13 00:00:40,840 --> 00:00:45,640 So for me, like Bitcoin, which is like everything is naked, it 14 00:00:45,640 --> 00:00:49,240 will still run, you know, like it's just like such a solid 15 00:00:49,240 --> 00:00:54,480 digital monetary database that will always work no matter what 16 00:00:54,480 --> 00:00:57,600 happens across the globe. And I can't say that for any 17 00:00:57,600 --> 00:00:59,280 other monetary system. Hey there. 18 00:00:59,280 --> 00:01:01,480 This is from Constana. You're listening to Bitcoin for 19 00:01:01,480 --> 00:01:03,360 Millennials. In this episode, I'm joined by 20 00:01:03,360 --> 00:01:05,519 Bert Roth. He's an engineer by trade who 21 00:01:05,519 --> 00:01:08,640 keeps greenhouses, warehouses, and offices warm with the 22 00:01:08,640 --> 00:01:12,200 Bitcoin miners he sets up. Ferret has also helped thousands 23 00:01:12,200 --> 00:01:14,720 of businesses, families and claps on their Bitcoin journey 24 00:01:14,720 --> 00:01:18,000 with his company Bitcoin br.avon.com, as an official 25 00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:20,960 reseller of open source hardware wallets, touch Bitcoin books, 26 00:01:20,960 --> 00:01:24,680 workshops and much more. He enjoys working on the Bitcoin 27 00:01:24,680 --> 00:01:27,560 standard full time and is currently also the chairman of 28 00:01:27,560 --> 00:01:31,520 Phoebe and l.org, a body of 13 Dutch Bitcoin companies that 29 00:01:31,520 --> 00:01:34,480 work together in this industry to combat fraud and improve 30 00:01:34,480 --> 00:01:36,080 Bitcoin adoption in the Netherlands. 31 00:01:36,480 --> 00:01:41,360 Bert is one of the most helpful, friendly, friendliest and humble 32 00:01:41,360 --> 00:01:44,640 Bitcoiners I know, so I'm excited to talk with him today. 33 00:01:44,640 --> 00:01:47,680 So welcome Bert. Thank you for the friendliest 34 00:01:47,680 --> 00:01:50,520 part. That's yes, definitely. 35 00:01:50,840 --> 00:01:54,880 And I hope I can stay humble in this, in this podcast because 36 00:01:55,800 --> 00:01:59,520 the prices is nice in, in, in euro terms. 37 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:04,280 And I think a lot of people are becoming a little bit less 38 00:02:04,280 --> 00:02:08,039 humble. And I think that's one of the 39 00:02:08,039 --> 00:02:11,000 the most difficult parts for for some, yeah. 40 00:02:12,320 --> 00:02:16,640 Well, at one point I think we all want to say I, I told you 41 00:02:16,640 --> 00:02:25,080 so, but I generally view that as almost like an altruistic thing, 42 00:02:25,120 --> 00:02:27,520 right? Because you hopefully trigger 43 00:02:27,520 --> 00:02:30,880 someone to actually start listening to you, You know, like 44 00:02:30,880 --> 00:02:33,480 what? We have all these attempts at 45 00:02:33,480 --> 00:02:36,160 helping people, like studying this. 46 00:02:36,200 --> 00:02:39,320 And yeah, at one point it's just going to run away from them. 47 00:02:39,840 --> 00:02:41,200 You. Know yeah, but I think I told 48 00:02:41,200 --> 00:02:43,480 you so far it doesn't really help adoption, right. 49 00:02:43,480 --> 00:02:47,640 So that's this is this is the the the difficult part because 50 00:02:47,640 --> 00:02:50,800 you can be right and a lot of people before us because we are 51 00:02:50,800 --> 00:02:56,520 late comers, both of us. So I think that makes it really 52 00:02:56,520 --> 00:02:59,480 complex because I told you so will not on board anyone. 53 00:02:59,920 --> 00:03:03,880 It will just keep more and more people away because there's the 54 00:03:03,880 --> 00:03:08,360 lucky guys. So I think in that sense that 55 00:03:08,360 --> 00:03:13,800 this is already like directly a very super interesting topic of 56 00:03:14,800 --> 00:03:18,200 the educational part that you have been through throughout the 57 00:03:18,200 --> 00:03:20,680 years. That's not something that other 58 00:03:20,680 --> 00:03:23,080 people see. They just think you drop some 59 00:03:23,080 --> 00:03:24,840 money in and you got rich or something. 60 00:03:24,840 --> 00:03:28,120 If that's the case, you know, like and for us, maybe not as 61 00:03:28,120 --> 00:03:32,680 much As for others, but I think that's one of the prime things 62 00:03:32,760 --> 00:03:37,760 that that should not be like the I told you so part or the the 63 00:03:37,760 --> 00:03:42,560 generic stream of, of information that you want to get 64 00:03:42,560 --> 00:03:46,000 across people, because that's not that's not nice, you know, 65 00:03:46,280 --> 00:03:49,800 Yeah, it helps everyone and that's what it's really about. 66 00:03:50,640 --> 00:03:54,800 And it doesn't matter when you actually start to do something 67 00:03:54,800 --> 00:03:59,440 with Bitcoin, It's just you, you want to at some point because 68 00:03:59,440 --> 00:04:02,240 it's better for you. Yeah, and that's not that I told 69 00:04:02,240 --> 00:04:05,760 you so far so. I, I would, I would agree. 70 00:04:05,760 --> 00:04:10,120 I, I'm not sure if I would actually say I told you so out 71 00:04:10,120 --> 00:04:12,080 loud, but I will, I will definitely think it. 72 00:04:12,080 --> 00:04:15,960 But I, I mean, IA 100% agree with you because I don't know 73 00:04:15,960 --> 00:04:20,320 about you, but I cannot really retrace my own steps anymore 74 00:04:20,880 --> 00:04:25,680 from like, you know, discovering it 10 years ago, then like up 75 00:04:25,680 --> 00:04:28,760 and down with interest, up and down with spending time, you 76 00:04:28,760 --> 00:04:33,200 know, and then eventually, you know, something clicks and then 77 00:04:33,200 --> 00:04:36,160 you're like all into it. But I, I could not retrace my 78 00:04:36,160 --> 00:04:40,920 own steps or where I was really like, OK, I'm, I'm swapping 1 79 00:04:40,920 --> 00:04:42,720 belief or understanding for another. 80 00:04:42,720 --> 00:04:46,480 And now this is you know how how my view changes so. 81 00:04:47,160 --> 00:04:50,120 Yeah, yeah, in that sense, I, I had also like a lot of touch 82 00:04:50,120 --> 00:04:53,320 points and I understand correctly that there was some 83 00:04:53,320 --> 00:04:54,760 shit coining in the past for you. 84 00:04:54,800 --> 00:04:57,760 Oh, A. 100% Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. 85 00:04:57,760 --> 00:04:59,960 So that's a part I never touched. 86 00:04:59,960 --> 00:05:04,560 So for me, it was really that in a company I was working in, an 87 00:05:04,560 --> 00:05:08,400 engineering firm in Delft, where a lot of colleagues were already 88 00:05:08,720 --> 00:05:10,680 interested in investing in Bitcoin. 89 00:05:10,680 --> 00:05:14,400 I had a local friend here from this small town where I'm from 90 00:05:14,960 --> 00:05:19,040 that started to mine in 2014. I still have the app that he 91 00:05:19,040 --> 00:05:20,680 sent me. Like Bert, you want to join in 92 00:05:20,680 --> 00:05:22,360 because we're going to mine Bitcoin. 93 00:05:22,360 --> 00:05:25,040 Cool. Like so many touch points. 94 00:05:25,040 --> 00:05:29,320 But you can also see my replies. You know, back in 2014, I said 95 00:05:29,320 --> 00:05:31,240 this is never going to work. The Chinese have free 96 00:05:31,240 --> 00:05:35,120 electricity. They have unlimited capacity 97 00:05:35,120 --> 00:05:39,560 with building out computers. Like they will have like 99% of 98 00:05:39,560 --> 00:05:42,000 the network. And at some point they will just 99 00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:44,280 take over and entire Bitcoin will be gone. 100 00:05:44,880 --> 00:05:51,440 And I've held this point for until 2019, let's say until I, 101 00:05:51,480 --> 00:05:55,240 you know, like started to investigate it a bit deeper. 102 00:05:55,240 --> 00:05:58,800 And then I spent, yeah, the 10,000 hour rule. 103 00:05:58,800 --> 00:06:03,000 So for me it was like I had a lot of touch points through 104 00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:05,760 time. And because I also worked in, 105 00:06:06,120 --> 00:06:12,080 yeah, let's say the software, I was very hesitant also 106 00:06:12,080 --> 00:06:17,160 technically to really dive in. And I think we've now come to a 107 00:06:17,160 --> 00:06:22,840 point that it's very, very, very, very hard to stop. 108 00:06:23,960 --> 00:06:27,920 And that point actually came not that long ago for me also. 109 00:06:27,920 --> 00:06:33,240 So the investigation part and then also physically, yeah, we 110 00:06:33,240 --> 00:06:37,200 were just discussing Umbrella, you know that the interesting 111 00:06:37,200 --> 00:06:40,440 thing is like once you've set up the node, you've done all the 112 00:06:40,640 --> 00:06:43,520 hardware, you've done all the the the code checking whatever 113 00:06:43,520 --> 00:06:46,320 you can do. I'm not a coder in that sense. 114 00:06:46,320 --> 00:06:49,520 So but whatever I am capable of checking, I would like to also 115 00:06:49,520 --> 00:06:52,560 verify. And then you jump into the 116 00:06:52,560 --> 00:06:57,960 mining part and then, yeah, another box opens, which is 117 00:06:57,960 --> 00:07:01,040 super interesting, but you also see some risks there. 118 00:07:01,040 --> 00:07:07,440 So again, you want to to to jump into that more deeply and really 119 00:07:07,440 --> 00:07:13,120 make sure that everything you think that is the case will also 120 00:07:13,120 --> 00:07:16,360 be perpetual. You know, like it's really long 121 00:07:16,360 --> 00:07:18,680 term. So the next 102 hundred, 300 122 00:07:18,680 --> 00:07:22,040 years, we know for sure that this system is capable of 123 00:07:22,040 --> 00:07:24,840 working. And I'm willing to invest all my 124 00:07:24,840 --> 00:07:27,720 time and energy in this. And that's for me really 125 00:07:27,720 --> 00:07:33,280 something that that became apparent in 2021 when I started 126 00:07:33,280 --> 00:07:37,000 Bitcoin Brahmont. So it's a journey and for 127 00:07:37,000 --> 00:07:40,800 everyone is different. But yeah, I've in that sense 128 00:07:40,800 --> 00:07:43,560 I've been really late. So I need to do more proof of 129 00:07:43,560 --> 00:07:46,160 work to actually survive on the Bitcoin standards. 130 00:07:46,720 --> 00:07:49,400 Hey there, I want to ask you for a quick favor. 131 00:07:49,640 --> 00:07:52,720 I noticed something interesting. 75% of my viewers aren't 132 00:07:52,720 --> 00:07:55,400 subscribed yet. Subscribing helps me grow this 133 00:07:55,400 --> 00:07:58,120 channel, ensuring more great content each week. 134 00:07:58,400 --> 00:08:01,080 So if you're enjoying our conversations on Bitcoin for 135 00:08:01,080 --> 00:08:03,440 millennials, please consider hitting the subscribe button on 136 00:08:03,440 --> 00:08:06,760 YouTube or the follow button on your favorite podcasting app. 137 00:08:07,200 --> 00:08:10,000 I'm super grateful for everyone who already joined and shared 138 00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:12,000 their thoughts. Your feedback really keeps me 139 00:08:12,000 --> 00:08:15,280 going, and I want to ask you to continue doing that. 140 00:08:15,280 --> 00:08:18,360 I tried to respond to all the comments and also the emails 141 00:08:18,360 --> 00:08:21,040 that I get and DMS on Twitter, etcetera. 142 00:08:21,280 --> 00:08:24,080 So don't stop doing that. I'll keep going. 143 00:08:24,200 --> 00:08:26,120 Now let's get back to the conversation. 144 00:08:26,760 --> 00:08:31,880 Well, I think I think late as in as in when it clicked, but I, I 145 00:08:31,880 --> 00:08:33,360 think that's a great example, right? 146 00:08:33,360 --> 00:08:38,159 Like I just said, like my journey was 2013 got totally 147 00:08:38,159 --> 00:08:41,080 into it like trading, etcetera. Then I kind of lost interest. 148 00:08:41,080 --> 00:08:45,040 Then I sold a start up at one point and I sold it for ETH at 149 00:08:45,040 --> 00:08:49,440 like, I don't know, $180 or, or or something. 150 00:08:51,640 --> 00:08:54,320 And then I got into the ICO stuff, the shit coin stuff, of 151 00:08:54,320 --> 00:08:57,200 course. But but really from perspective 152 00:08:57,200 --> 00:09:01,800 of I always knew that like new technology is a Wild West. 153 00:09:01,800 --> 00:09:06,120 So I knew it was a Wild West. So I didn't go to I like, I 154 00:09:06,120 --> 00:09:10,320 tried it out, but I didn't lose too much money luck luckily. 155 00:09:11,680 --> 00:09:15,000 But what is funny is that a few weeks ago, I looked up my old 156 00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:20,160 tweets from 2013 when I was like, oh, Bitcoin crashed back 157 00:09:20,160 --> 00:09:22,120 to $100. Should I buy more? 158 00:09:22,360 --> 00:09:25,760 You know, and I and I, I, I, I also tweeted about, you know, 159 00:09:25,760 --> 00:09:28,320 Bitcoin is like a digital commodity you can print or 160 00:09:28,320 --> 00:09:29,640 something like, like similar tweets. 161 00:09:29,640 --> 00:09:31,360 And I was like, damn, I got it right. 162 00:09:31,360 --> 00:09:34,280 Like, I, I understood it, but no, I didn't. 163 00:09:34,680 --> 00:09:37,320 Yeah. So it's just, it's just one, one 164 00:09:37,320 --> 00:09:40,080 angle, but not, not in the bigger picture. 165 00:09:40,080 --> 00:09:43,000 And I think that is also why it's so hard to understand 166 00:09:43,000 --> 00:09:49,160 because in, in essence, Bitcoin is fairly simple, but it's not 167 00:09:49,160 --> 00:09:51,360 easy to understand. It's very hard to understand 168 00:09:51,360 --> 00:09:55,320 because it touches all these dimensions in, in the world 169 00:09:55,880 --> 00:09:58,920 that, that we think we know. Right. 170 00:09:58,920 --> 00:10:03,640 And I actually, I, I tweeted an article today from Jesse Myers 171 00:10:03,960 --> 00:10:09,320 about why the, the, the yuppies hate, hate Bitcoin. 172 00:10:09,880 --> 00:10:12,160 And he said, you know, these are the intelligent people that 173 00:10:12,160 --> 00:10:15,560 trust systems. They they are in their ivory 174 00:10:15,560 --> 00:10:18,160 tower and they think that the ivory tower is the 175 00:10:18,160 --> 00:10:21,120 representation of the world and that they know everything. 176 00:10:21,120 --> 00:10:24,680 And if something comes along that they don't know about, 177 00:10:24,880 --> 00:10:26,280 right, That's also the meme, right? 178 00:10:26,280 --> 00:10:29,480 Like I'm a PHDI don't know. And if I didn't study Bitcoin, 179 00:10:29,480 --> 00:10:35,440 but you're wrong, you know, like it's, it's, it's so it's spot on 180 00:10:35,440 --> 00:10:39,160 because it's that feeling like you have a fake trust in 181 00:10:39,160 --> 00:10:42,600 yourself, you know, and once you study Bitcoin and reflect, then 182 00:10:42,600 --> 00:10:45,120 you can actually trust yourself. And that's actually what I like 183 00:10:45,120 --> 00:10:46,760 so much. Like even for you, you've 184 00:10:46,760 --> 00:10:49,040 started really early in the game, but still you didn't 185 00:10:49,040 --> 00:10:52,880 really grasp Bitcoin and then the the risks of Bitcoin along 186 00:10:52,880 --> 00:10:54,640 the way. We're still relatively high. 187 00:10:54,640 --> 00:10:58,280 So if you talk to the oh geez, you know, it's really like, yes, 188 00:10:58,400 --> 00:11:01,200 I bought a new bicycle for 800 Bitcoin. 189 00:11:01,360 --> 00:11:03,600 Oh man, what did I do? You know, I did, I never 190 00:11:03,600 --> 00:11:06,600 understood it. And then, you know, I, I also 191 00:11:06,600 --> 00:11:09,280 know some miners, you know, more than 10 years in the game and 192 00:11:09,520 --> 00:11:13,320 they're just like, yeah, man. And we were trading coins a lot. 193 00:11:13,320 --> 00:11:16,200 And I said, like, what would have happened if you would just 194 00:11:16,200 --> 00:11:19,800 have held your Bitcoin, you know, like you would have. 195 00:11:20,160 --> 00:11:22,600 Yeah, I wouldn't have been doing the mining still, you know, like 196 00:11:23,520 --> 00:11:27,920 so that's basically the path, you know, like for for 99% of 197 00:11:27,920 --> 00:11:30,640 the people you also meet that actually have crossed it 198 00:11:30,640 --> 00:11:34,440 earlier, they always exchange it for something that they needed 199 00:11:34,440 --> 00:11:37,560 along the way or they try to make more of it. 200 00:11:37,560 --> 00:11:40,080 You know, you have like also these trading companies, they 201 00:11:40,080 --> 00:11:43,480 say, yeah, we have a really great return of investment in 202 00:11:43,480 --> 00:11:47,720 Fiat terms, but we never outperformed Bitcoin, but at 203 00:11:47,720 --> 00:11:49,240 least our customers are happy, right. 204 00:11:49,520 --> 00:11:52,320 So this is this is really in the industry. 205 00:11:52,320 --> 00:11:54,600 It's a super interesting dynamic because. 206 00:11:55,280 --> 00:11:59,240 Yeah, the Bitcoin by itself, like also what I'm doing with 207 00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:03,680 this little company, you know, helping people, it basically you 208 00:12:03,680 --> 00:12:07,000 constantly lose Bitcoin. So if you look for instance, we 209 00:12:07,000 --> 00:12:09,000 did a lot of block stream, Jade says. 210 00:12:09,080 --> 00:12:11,040 So hundreds and hundreds of them for Europe. 211 00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:16,040 And then at some point I bought like, let's say I think I bought 212 00:12:16,040 --> 00:12:19,600 1 batch of 200 in one go and that was when the price was 213 00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:25,320 around 18 thousand, €19,000. And then of course, when the 214 00:12:25,320 --> 00:12:29,960 price propels up, you just lose Bitcoin with every sale you make 215 00:12:29,960 --> 00:12:31,920 because, you know, it's in Bitcoin terms. 216 00:12:31,920 --> 00:12:35,560 And I think in Bitcoin. So like the, the business, you 217 00:12:35,560 --> 00:12:41,560 know, is, is profitable in Fiat terms, but it's insanely bad in 218 00:12:41,560 --> 00:12:42,560 Bitcoin terms. Yeah. 219 00:12:42,800 --> 00:12:46,400 So this is always like, how do you outperform Bitcoin? 220 00:12:46,720 --> 00:12:50,120 Yeah, if you, if you want to have a business, it's almost 221 00:12:50,120 --> 00:12:53,840 impossible. I, I don't see an easy way to do 222 00:12:53,840 --> 00:12:56,480 that. Like on in an almost way, let's 223 00:12:56,480 --> 00:12:59,520 say, of course you have all these scammers and these, yeah, 224 00:13:00,520 --> 00:13:04,520 that's a different story. But in an honest way, I, I, I, I 225 00:13:04,520 --> 00:13:08,280 think it's very, very difficult. Yeah, yeah, I have similar. 226 00:13:08,280 --> 00:13:12,720 I I bought at 400, sold everything at 4000, I've bought 227 00:13:12,720 --> 00:13:16,680 headphones that are now like 7000 or €10,000 and I. 228 00:13:16,680 --> 00:13:18,400 Hope they are still the same the ones who they. 229 00:13:18,440 --> 00:13:24,000 Broke within a year yeah no, but it's, it's I have less Bitcoin 230 00:13:24,000 --> 00:13:27,400 than I had when I when I bought it at 400, you know but but I 231 00:13:27,400 --> 00:13:30,360 think that's part of it you know I mean I got scammed in the ship 232 00:13:30,400 --> 00:13:35,000 and stuff like, but you know the only thing you can the only way 233 00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:37,800 you can understand it is to to like try it out and be there 234 00:13:37,800 --> 00:13:41,600 right Like I, I, I had an interview for for like a little 235 00:13:41,840 --> 00:13:45,080 docu series and they interviewed her where I was talking to her 236 00:13:45,520 --> 00:13:47,800 we're gonna have lunch because I think she's almost there 237 00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:51,040 actually, but it's funny and she told me like what I don't like 238 00:13:51,040 --> 00:13:53,800 about bitcoiners is that sometimes when people have like 239 00:13:53,800 --> 00:13:55,800 a critique, they say like you didn't study enough. 240 00:13:55,800 --> 00:13:58,920 I said, I'm sorry, but it's true, you know, because from the 241 00:13:58,920 --> 00:14:03,840 argument you can hear that they just, they, they don't even have 242 00:14:04,120 --> 00:14:06,320 Bitcoin. They didn't ever, they never 243 00:14:06,320 --> 00:14:10,600 created a wallet or even an exchange account or what 244 00:14:10,600 --> 00:14:14,480 whatever, right? And so, you know, you say 10,000 245 00:14:14,520 --> 00:14:16,560 hours. I think I have the same, I don't 246 00:14:16,560 --> 00:14:21,240 know, more like, how are you coming at me with like one hours 247 00:14:21,240 --> 00:14:24,920 of, of, of, of, of, of, right? You know, reading blog posts or 248 00:14:24,920 --> 00:14:26,360 whatever, Like what are you talking about? 249 00:14:26,360 --> 00:14:28,880 You know, and I think you have to be real about that. 250 00:14:28,880 --> 00:14:31,880 Like, I'm not going to talk about what a surgeon is doing, 251 00:14:32,080 --> 00:14:34,240 you know, because I don't know what I'm talking about. 252 00:14:34,960 --> 00:14:38,280 Yeah, Yeah. This is really like something I 253 00:14:38,280 --> 00:14:40,760 really love in that sense in my new job, right. 254 00:14:40,760 --> 00:14:43,880 So as a chairman of the United Bitcoin Companies in the 255 00:14:43,880 --> 00:14:47,800 Netherlands, I also get to go to very nice meetings where the 256 00:14:47,800 --> 00:14:50,000 banks are also present. And then I have to present a 257 00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:52,080 little bit about Bitcoin because they wanted to know a bit more 258 00:14:52,080 --> 00:14:53,760 about it. And then you have like the 259 00:14:53,760 --> 00:14:56,440 chairman there. He's now retiring. 260 00:14:56,440 --> 00:15:01,720 So good luck and enjoy. But the nice thing is like, he's 261 00:15:01,720 --> 00:15:03,800 like the chairman of this payment platform. 262 00:15:04,360 --> 00:15:07,680 And I asked him like, it was a last meeting, physical meeting. 263 00:15:07,680 --> 00:15:10,400 And I asked him, did you ever actually receive any Bitcoin or 264 00:15:11,000 --> 00:15:12,400 No, No, I don't know anything about this. 265 00:15:12,440 --> 00:15:15,720 I said, grab your phone, man. You know, install this app and 266 00:15:15,720 --> 00:15:18,760 I'll put some thoughts on it, you know, and I did that. 267 00:15:18,760 --> 00:15:22,480 And he was like, yeah, nobody ever did this, you know, like, I 268 00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:24,720 didn't know it was this easy, you know, and I don't have to 269 00:15:24,720 --> 00:15:26,120 show my passport. What What's it? 270 00:15:26,120 --> 00:15:27,360 What is this, You know, like this is. 271 00:15:27,360 --> 00:15:30,120 Yeah, yeah, this where it's all about, right? 272 00:15:30,120 --> 00:15:32,800 There are billions of people who don't have a passport and they 273 00:15:32,800 --> 00:15:37,160 actually want to exchange something without it being like 274 00:15:37,160 --> 00:15:39,200 some kind of note with a dictator hat on it. 275 00:15:39,240 --> 00:15:41,680 You know, that's maybe something that we want to have in this 276 00:15:41,680 --> 00:15:44,360 planet. And it's like, oh, yeah, OK, 277 00:15:44,360 --> 00:15:47,920 maybe then it clicks, right. So it's really nice when you 278 00:15:47,920 --> 00:15:50,360 don't have any touch points. And especially in the 279 00:15:50,360 --> 00:15:54,280 Netherlands where, you know, the the payment system is really, 280 00:15:54,280 --> 00:15:58,800 really great. So you're so far out, you know, 281 00:15:58,800 --> 00:16:00,960 from where it is across the globe. 282 00:16:01,160 --> 00:16:03,440 And because I worked a lot across the globe, you see the 283 00:16:03,440 --> 00:16:09,640 necessity so much more than other people because, yeah, I've 284 00:16:09,640 --> 00:16:13,360 been working with so many people from different layers and 285 00:16:13,360 --> 00:16:17,880 different places of this planet that this is really necessary. 286 00:16:17,880 --> 00:16:22,280 And we actually, you can build quite a lot of infrastructure 287 00:16:22,640 --> 00:16:26,560 here that will help all these people in the authoritarian 288 00:16:27,960 --> 00:16:32,440 sides of our planet. So it's super nice that as soon 289 00:16:32,440 --> 00:16:36,440 as that clicks and also the impact that it can have that, 290 00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:38,280 yeah, that people start to open up. 291 00:16:38,480 --> 00:16:41,280 And I think that's something that's really still missing, 292 00:16:41,280 --> 00:16:45,960 like on the educational part that most people always look at 293 00:16:45,960 --> 00:16:50,760 it from like the personal gain. But it's, I've always learned 294 00:16:50,760 --> 00:16:53,680 that you can only have a good life if the people around you 295 00:16:53,680 --> 00:16:56,760 also have a good life. Because if the people around 296 00:16:56,760 --> 00:17:00,240 you, their life sucks and they have to basically steal their 297 00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:05,560 life away. So that will also affect you. 298 00:17:05,920 --> 00:17:08,560 And then you see these differences in different 299 00:17:08,560 --> 00:17:11,720 locations of our planet, you know, where you have to put more 300 00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:16,319 protection up because people can actually take stuff from you and 301 00:17:16,319 --> 00:17:20,599 will take stuff from you because the differences are much 302 00:17:20,920 --> 00:17:24,359 greater. And it's like not a fair system. 303 00:17:24,839 --> 00:17:27,200 And I think, and that's also what's coming back. 304 00:17:27,200 --> 00:17:30,320 So next week I'm going to the parliament. 305 00:17:30,320 --> 00:17:32,880 I have a discussion there with a couple of people in the 306 00:17:32,880 --> 00:17:35,800 parliament in the Netherlands. And we have always been a 307 00:17:35,800 --> 00:17:38,160 trading nation. And why have we been such a 308 00:17:38,320 --> 00:17:41,080 stable trading nation? It's because we had such a 309 00:17:41,080 --> 00:17:44,240 stable currency. You know, we had a very, very 310 00:17:44,240 --> 00:17:50,000 stable, very, very conservative currency, which basically was 311 00:17:50,000 --> 00:17:52,840 even better than the dollar if you look in the past. 312 00:17:52,840 --> 00:17:57,520 So a link to the Deutsche mark. So this is something where 313 00:17:57,520 --> 00:18:02,320 stability is, is, is a big part of of ingrained in US, you know, 314 00:18:02,320 --> 00:18:06,720 like as the Dutch people. So and we let that go now under 315 00:18:06,720 --> 00:18:08,800 the euro. So what do we want to do? 316 00:18:08,800 --> 00:18:12,400 You know, like also in politics, where do we want to move to? 317 00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:16,240 Do we do we want to go back into this more conservative approach 318 00:18:16,240 --> 00:18:19,480 of holding a stable currency? And actually the countries that 319 00:18:19,480 --> 00:18:26,080 will do this will be like the biggest enemy of Bitcoin in that 320 00:18:26,080 --> 00:18:28,520 sense. Because if they can show that 321 00:18:28,520 --> 00:18:32,120 they have a very conservative currency there, which works 322 00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:34,320 perfectly well on the centralized database and the 323 00:18:34,320 --> 00:18:37,200 Super efficient and can relatively trust them, well, 324 00:18:38,360 --> 00:18:40,840 that will be used by a lot of people on this planet. 325 00:18:41,280 --> 00:18:44,760 So I think that's where in the long term, you know, the 326 00:18:44,840 --> 00:18:46,360 competition is going to come from. 327 00:18:47,080 --> 00:18:49,200 And the question is which countries will move first, 328 00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:51,280 right? So yeah. 329 00:18:51,440 --> 00:18:55,920 Well, it's interesting, right, because I haven't seen any proof 330 00:18:55,960 --> 00:18:59,080 of it, but I think people are talking about how like the Petro 331 00:18:59,080 --> 00:19:01,440 dollar ended like yesterday or something. 332 00:19:01,440 --> 00:19:02,840 I. Oh yeah, with the Saudi Arabia. 333 00:19:02,840 --> 00:19:04,440 I don't know. I don't know. 334 00:19:04,440 --> 00:19:07,360 There's nothing public about it. But in general, you know, this 335 00:19:07,360 --> 00:19:09,800 is what what you're sharing is what the bit bricks are going to 336 00:19:09,800 --> 00:19:14,000 try to do right. And it's interesting that it's 337 00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:17,320 happening in general. And I agree with you if you, if 338 00:19:17,320 --> 00:19:21,000 you because they will never, well never say never, but but 339 00:19:21,120 --> 00:19:23,920 you know, the incentive for them currently is to not move to a 340 00:19:23,920 --> 00:19:26,120 decentralized currency, obviously, right? 341 00:19:26,120 --> 00:19:29,960 So they're doing it in a centralized way, but by creating 342 00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:34,480 a currency based on or creating a basket, you know of their 343 00:19:34,480 --> 00:19:35,840 currencies of. Course. 344 00:19:36,200 --> 00:19:40,560 Well, this is the end game. More stable than the US dollar, 345 00:19:40,680 --> 00:19:42,600 right? So this is the end game, right? 346 00:19:42,600 --> 00:19:47,520 Like if you just and actually, if anybody watches us, check the 347 00:19:47,520 --> 00:19:51,400 documentary by Smith, which is called Bitter Lake, which is 348 00:19:51,400 --> 00:19:54,040 about the Petro dollar and all the shit that we have because of 349 00:19:54,040 --> 00:19:57,000 it. And you know what is super 350 00:19:57,000 --> 00:20:00,400 interesting is that if you look at. 351 00:20:01,360 --> 00:20:04,480 Where we are heading to is indeed it's it's dollar, let's 352 00:20:04,480 --> 00:20:06,520 say, yeah. So that's basically like euro 353 00:20:06,520 --> 00:20:11,560 dollar, dollar system versus like the the bricks, let's say. 354 00:20:11,560 --> 00:20:15,840 But but both is, is government related systems where they will 355 00:20:15,840 --> 00:20:19,560 be able to print money of course because they they keep control. 356 00:20:19,560 --> 00:20:22,240 And then you all of a sudden have like this this middle 357 00:20:22,240 --> 00:20:26,480 ground, this this small thing in the middle, which is privately 358 00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:29,720 owned there. We all run it and a lot of 359 00:20:29,720 --> 00:20:33,040 people run it and more and more people in a lot of countries 360 00:20:33,040 --> 00:20:37,840 around the globe run it. So this is like a really public 361 00:20:38,040 --> 00:20:40,960 money. So it's not the private money of 362 00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:43,800 the government's know, it's the public money of the people. 363 00:20:43,920 --> 00:20:48,560 And this is you can choose what you want to use and this public 364 00:20:48,560 --> 00:20:52,400 money will grow and grow and faster and faster as long as 365 00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:56,960 these steps are taken into the centralization of both BRICS and 366 00:20:56,960 --> 00:21:00,920 the Euro dollar system. So I I think that Bitcoin shines 367 00:21:00,920 --> 00:21:04,920 so bright when we see these moves happening at the moment. 368 00:21:05,560 --> 00:21:08,880 And I think also that that's reflected, you know, in, in, in 369 00:21:08,880 --> 00:21:12,520 what we see in, in both price, but also, you know, you know, 370 00:21:12,560 --> 00:21:15,200 the flows that you see towards ETFs. 371 00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:19,880 What a guy like Larry think of, of BlackRock saying like, Oh 372 00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:22,920 yeah, it's it's a safe haven, you know, like, yeah, it really 373 00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:25,360 is. So there's a lot of need for 374 00:21:25,360 --> 00:21:30,680 this, which is segregated from government money and I think 375 00:21:30,680 --> 00:21:35,360 that's also where the path is going to be important in. 376 00:21:35,560 --> 00:21:38,760 But we need to stay decentralized and that's the 377 00:21:38,760 --> 00:21:41,760 most difficult part, especially on the mining side, where I 378 00:21:42,040 --> 00:21:46,680 think we will see more problems coming in the in the future. 379 00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:49,680 Yeah, let's talk about that in a second. 380 00:21:49,920 --> 00:21:52,520 What, what I find interesting is what, what you're saying the, 381 00:21:53,560 --> 00:21:57,400 you see these moves, right, with what the bricks are doing to 382 00:21:57,400 --> 00:22:01,480 counter the dollar. And we all know that the dollar 383 00:22:01,480 --> 00:22:04,480 is in decline. I I think it's almost inevitable 384 00:22:06,480 --> 00:22:11,920 to, to, to you cannot save that anymore, right? 385 00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:15,480 It's really on this downward slope and and it they can, they 386 00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:18,320 can keep it alive for a long time. 387 00:22:18,320 --> 00:22:22,240 But what I find interesting is that the fact that that this is 388 00:22:22,240 --> 00:22:28,040 now a topic in this presidential race in general is just 389 00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:31,960 interesting. I think it became it, It's 390 00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:35,600 earlier than we all thought. But also, I think the right 391 00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:40,000 people are in, in, in, in Trump's ear, for example, like 392 00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:43,200 he's saying certain things where I think like, like someone else 393 00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:46,160 wrote this, obviously, but they wrote the right thing, you know, 394 00:22:46,160 --> 00:22:49,800 And I think the, the, the threat that you are illustrating, you 395 00:22:49,800 --> 00:22:52,400 know, by the bricks to the US dollar. 396 00:22:52,760 --> 00:22:58,960 And for example, I think it was the, the IMF who shared an 397 00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:01,840 update on how they look at America and they see, you know, 398 00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:05,520 the, the fiscal depth is way too much, etcetera. 399 00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:09,840 Like there are signs that they, that they know they have to do 400 00:23:09,840 --> 00:23:12,360 something right. But it would be like a real 401 00:23:12,360 --> 00:23:18,120 reverse Uno if, if, if the US would adopt Bitcoin in some way, 402 00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:22,000 you know, because then they can actually counter that threat of 403 00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:24,080 the bricks. And I think this is in essence 404 00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:27,480 what Jason Lowry talks about also with software, right, like 405 00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:31,440 the, the, the, the entire like the macro global game theory 406 00:23:31,440 --> 00:23:35,000 with this is just really, really fascinating because it is all 407 00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:37,920 happening, right? If the Petro dollar ends and the 408 00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:41,000 bricks actually launch, you know, they have all these trials 409 00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:44,640 with their internal, you know, settlement system. 410 00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:47,360 There was some publication last week like all this stuff is 411 00:23:47,360 --> 00:23:49,720 happening at the same time. For this, you know, we still 412 00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:52,280 have dollarization, right? So if you just look at the graph 413 00:23:52,280 --> 00:23:56,000 of currencies being used across the globe, you just see that the 414 00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:58,960 dollar is still growing and rapidly, right? 415 00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:01,320 So you see that the euro is dropping rapidly. 416 00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:03,800 The dollar is really going up. It's really eating away the 417 00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:07,040 euro. And I think for the next few 418 00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:11,560 years, it's still the dollar might grow, you know, like it's 419 00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:13,840 not that it's all of a sudden going to no, no. 420 00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:16,120 No, I agree. They they, they keep it alive. 421 00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:18,400 Yeah. And and like just look at 422 00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:22,320 theater for instance, how as a huge amount of treasury is being 423 00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:26,560 insert and this, this, this digital dollarization is it 424 00:24:26,560 --> 00:24:28,560 looks like that's actually the first step, right. 425 00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:31,520 So if, if you, if you look at the wallet like Aqua, you know, 426 00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:34,200 like that, that's rolling out quite rapidly. 427 00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:38,200 A lot of people just use the dollars because they don't want 428 00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:40,600 the fluctuation in the, in the Bitcoin still. 429 00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:44,040 So they use this, this digital dollar, let's say, and that's 430 00:24:44,040 --> 00:24:46,360 really rapidly being rolled out across the globe. 431 00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:51,400 So I think and when people need to choose between a digital yuan 432 00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:54,720 or a digital dollar, people in general choose a digital dollar 433 00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:57,640 now because that's something they know they will probably not 434 00:24:57,640 --> 00:25:00,000 choose for Bitcoin. So I think in the next decade, 435 00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:04,000 it will basically be like A2 tiered approach or still we will 436 00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:08,640 see first more dollarization And then at some point, you know, 437 00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:12,160 Bitcoin comes very rapidly because it actually retains 438 00:25:12,160 --> 00:25:15,480 value better and people start to understand what what is 439 00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:18,800 happening and what they're doing and other countries need to 440 00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:20,880 start leading the way on this, right. 441 00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:24,360 So to adopt Bitcoin, and the question is who are going to do 442 00:25:24,360 --> 00:25:27,440 that first? And yeah, back to the 443 00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:30,880 Netherlands again, as a trading nation, you want to trade with 444 00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:33,440 everyone. So you need a Ledger where you 445 00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:36,680 can trade with everyone with. And in that sense, the 446 00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:41,160 Netherlands can be like a midpoint with Bitcoin, you know, 447 00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:44,240 So there's tremendous opportunities there. 448 00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:48,120 And if you open yourself up, I think your economy will boom 449 00:25:48,120 --> 00:25:51,360 like crazy. And next to that, we have the 450 00:25:51,360 --> 00:25:56,120 most important chip machine manufacturer of the planet here, 451 00:25:56,120 --> 00:25:59,280 HML. And of course what would happen 452 00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:02,920 is as soon as we dip a little bit into Bitcoin as the 453 00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:08,720 Netherlands, HML will soar like crazy because the chips need to 454 00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:14,560 be need to be built. So like the direct impact and 455 00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:17,680 the indirect impact of doing something with Bitcoin in the 456 00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:20,640 Netherlands is just, yeah, it's just insane. 457 00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:25,920 So the question is which politicians understand this and 458 00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:30,000 when do you get this game theory going on a bit as as you're 459 00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:33,400 already saying, the US might already be building out a lot of 460 00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:37,000 things that we don't really see. And this is actually where I see 461 00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:40,880 the danger is that indeed, if the hash rate really 462 00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:43,960 concentrates, let's say, yeah, in Foundry USA, which you can 463 00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:48,400 clearly see in the man pool. And then it becomes clear that 464 00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:55,360 they will demand some kind of block templating there, where 465 00:26:55,440 --> 00:27:00,360 the block template of each block with transactions being filled 466 00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:04,600 will have some kind of compliant list attached to this. 467 00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:09,360 And this is an issue because then, you know, it becomes more 468 00:27:09,360 --> 00:27:13,480 difficult to use Bitcoin easily. In other countries for. 469 00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:16,480 Every way for everyone because they will start to let's say 470 00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:21,800 sanction addresses, but there will be a huge counter movement 471 00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:25,720 also. And if you really study Bitcoin, 472 00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:31,160 you will see that in the long term it will be private mining 473 00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:35,000 versus state mining, you know, and that's the long term game. 474 00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:38,320 And the question is added could be in decades from now. 475 00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:42,520 So, but but in the long term, this is where it could play out. 476 00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:46,960 And the question is, are some countries already working with 477 00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:51,560 this or preparing for this or going in this direction and 478 00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:56,160 pushing Bitcoin further down this game theory on the on this 479 00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:59,520 part? I think 2 two things on that. 480 00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:04,640 I, I don't disagree with you, but I think it could go faster, 481 00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:07,880 but it's just when I think through it, right, I think like 482 00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:13,800 if we figure this out, I think someone in a relevant government 483 00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:16,400 has also figured it out. It's just, you know, like it 484 00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:19,840 would be incredibly disappointing. 485 00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:23,560 I would say just, you know, if someone didn't figure this out, 486 00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:30,360 that that plus I feel like the, the, the global game theory, we 487 00:28:30,360 --> 00:28:33,760 could talk about it. We can set the pieces, but I 488 00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:39,720 think the start is a very tiny is, is, is a one time event or 489 00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:44,680 fame or announcement, right? And it doesn't have to be that 490 00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:47,440 that big. You know, you know, as you as 491 00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:50,840 you say, like let's say if the Netherlands says, well, we are 492 00:28:50,840 --> 00:28:53,720 the trading hub for the world because there's now two blocks 493 00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:57,120 of currency, for example, but we still want to buy something in 494 00:28:57,440 --> 00:29:00,520 China, but we don't want to use the bricks currency, But you 495 00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:02,600 could exchange it here for Bitcoin, you know, and Bitcoin 496 00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:04,680 is the the neutral in between currency. 497 00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:06,000 I don't know, I'm just fantasizing. 498 00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:10,480 That will be very cool by the way, but that'll be super huge, 499 00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:13,000 obviously. But but something like this for 500 00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:17,040 me, it's it it's so logical. It makes so much sense, right? 501 00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:21,240 But I just can't believe that that other people have not 502 00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:22,880 figured that out. So I feel like. 503 00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:24,480 Right. This has been Switzerland 504 00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:26,320 throughout history. Yes, yes. 505 00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:29,480 So. Again, if you pitch someone in a 506 00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:31,920 government, would you want to be the Switzerland of the New 507 00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:33,240 World? Duh. 508 00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:35,560 Yes, of course. Yeah. 509 00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:39,440 And this is indeed, and you see what you're saying, it could be 510 00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:43,960 more rapidly, but because if you just see the small touch points. 511 00:29:44,040 --> 00:29:47,160 So you saw the White House letter on the Super small mining 512 00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:50,680 location, which was controlled by some Chinese guys through 513 00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:55,440 Bermuda, you know, and there was like a letter from the White 514 00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:58,120 House about about this mining location. 515 00:29:59,800 --> 00:30:04,600 That's insane, right? That that that that they 516 00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:07,240 actually published a letter about this small mining location 517 00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:09,880 just controlled by some Chinese folks through Bermuda. 518 00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:10,880 Yeah. OK, what the fuck? 519 00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:16,320 But this this feels like a game theory thing, you know, like, 520 00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:19,280 holy shit. So who controls the hash? 521 00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:22,240 That is that really where we're what we're looking at here? 522 00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:24,880 Is this like the touch point where you're you're aiming for 523 00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:28,040 or is this because you they made it public, right? 524 00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:31,840 So they could have just stopped the whole thing like non public. 525 00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:36,160 So why do they make this public? Is this like also something they 526 00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:38,880 want to share in public then? And what's what's the idea 527 00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:40,680 behind this? That's exactly what you're 528 00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:43,440 saying, right? So, yeah, so exactly what you're 529 00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:47,200 saying, like what is happening in the background, there must be 530 00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:50,000 you. You mentioned Jason Laurie, you 531 00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:52,600 know you, I have the software book and then in the back here 532 00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:57,040 also that there's, there's a lot of theory in in the background 533 00:30:57,040 --> 00:31:01,680 where you could, yeah, where you could see some game theory 534 00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:05,320 playing out here. But I still believe it's really 535 00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:11,440 early in that sense, so. I believe that too. 536 00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:15,040 It's just more like when I think about this, it's a spectrum of 537 00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:21,240 they figured it out just as we figured it out or we figured it 538 00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:24,920 out and they are fucking clueless, which would be just so 539 00:31:24,920 --> 00:31:30,160 incredibly bad that it's just, I put a lower like percentage on, 540 00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:34,560 on that option, right. And, and, and so that's kind of 541 00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:36,800 how it works. It, it would be deeply saddening 542 00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:39,640 if, if they are on the, on that side of the, of the, of the 543 00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:42,680 spectrum and they just don't really know what they're doing. 544 00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:45,240 Because for example, that's, that's kind of how I felt with 545 00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:50,120 this Ethereum ETF. You know, crazy turn around 546 00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:55,240 within a week, you know, you see Trump at some random rally 547 00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:59,120 answered to a question from a guy in a crowd like, hey, do you 548 00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:00,720 like crypto? Oh yeah, crypto is great. 549 00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:02,200 What? Oh, crypto, crypto, crypto you. 550 00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:06,520 Know I I only see someone from the Biden team like laying on 551 00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:09,560 the couch watching this presser and they're like shit he's pro 552 00:32:09,560 --> 00:32:11,280 crypt. Oh no, we have to do something. 553 00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:13,400 What do we do? You know, that's how I feel. 554 00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:16,360 It's very clear. And that in this speech also, he 555 00:32:16,360 --> 00:32:20,360 said that, yeah, I support the 50 million, 50 million people, 556 00:32:20,360 --> 00:32:22,600 you know, in the US that so, and this is a similar. 557 00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:25,000 Thing right in but isn't that important? 558 00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:28,120 No, but it's vote. It's just vote hurting. 559 00:32:28,120 --> 00:32:30,240 That's how I. Feel like it is and I agree but 560 00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:33,720 wait, wait, there's more topics that touch the same 50 million 561 00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:37,800 people, right? So, so again, it's either he has 562 00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:40,400 no clue he probably has no clue and this is just like a 563 00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:42,960 communication line and he talks like that, right? 564 00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:46,160 Just to to to get to these 50 million people. 565 00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:49,560 But let's say they really identify 15,000,000 people for 566 00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:55,760 which for for who Bitcoin and crypto is a real election point, 567 00:32:56,160 --> 00:32:59,600 then we are not that early. If that is really like it's an 568 00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:01,480 election point for you and me, right. 569 00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:05,040 But 50 million Americans like you and me, I don't think so, 570 00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:06,520 right. So it's either it's again. 571 00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:10,720 If if you look at the perspective, right, so if you 572 00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:13,680 have like how many people will have read the genesis book, you 573 00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:17,000 know, like about the origins of Bitcoin, about what Bitcoin 574 00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:18,880 really is, how many people run a node? 575 00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:23,480 You know, how many? So going really into like what 576 00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:29,120 Bitcoin is versus then crypto, which is very big. 577 00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:31,840 And in that sense, you know, the difference between Bitcoin and 578 00:33:31,840 --> 00:33:34,840 crypto, I think you can explain very well. 579 00:33:34,840 --> 00:33:37,640 And you've done that in your podcast because you've seen both 580 00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:43,320 sides from close by, I think. So you know that there's a huge 581 00:33:43,320 --> 00:33:47,360 difference there and this is something that that that still 582 00:33:47,360 --> 00:33:52,280 needs to be explain thoroughly because that's where the the mix 583 00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:55,320 up and the mismatches in the general public. 584 00:33:55,320 --> 00:33:59,320 I think still, yeah. So, so how do you how do you 585 00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:01,320 think that we would would get there right. 586 00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:06,040 So if we look back at your story maybe a bit, I think it's 587 00:34:06,040 --> 00:34:09,320 interesting because before you started with the podcast, we 588 00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:13,760 already discussed like a bit like what you were going to do 589 00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:19,159 you, you were searching. So, so why, why did you get to 590 00:34:19,159 --> 00:34:24,280 this point that you get this podcast going instead of like go 591 00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:27,920 on a crypto tour and try to get rich? 592 00:34:27,960 --> 00:34:33,040 Let's say, well, I I talked about crypto or web tree also 593 00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:38,040 in, in, in some podcasts as a guest myself like I see, and at 594 00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:40,840 that point I kind of understood the difference. 595 00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:46,040 But now how I explain it right now is, is crypto is an attempt 596 00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:52,159 by startup teams, by teams of people to create an ecosystem in 597 00:34:52,159 --> 00:34:57,120 which a token that they created fuels to use in that ecosystem, 598 00:34:57,120 --> 00:34:59,640 right? And so if that ecosystem becomes 599 00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:02,840 big enough, if enough people use it to solve their problems or 600 00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:07,320 fulfill their needs, then that token has value. 601 00:35:07,320 --> 00:35:11,600 So in that sense, you know, although, you know, I, I don't 602 00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:13,800 like the whole origin story of Ethereum, etc. 603 00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:17,360 Like that concept concept does hold up for Ethereum, right? 604 00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:20,600 It's an, it's an ecosystem like a decentralized supercomputer, 605 00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:22,680 etc. You can build apps and you use 606 00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:28,240 ease as the gas to power the, the apps or that or that 607 00:35:28,240 --> 00:35:30,800 network, you know, make sense. If enough people use it, then 608 00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:33,280 yes, that token has value in some way. 609 00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:36,680 But it's, it's exactly that description. 610 00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:39,840 It's not ultrasound money or all the, all these things. 611 00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:43,280 It's it's it's a token that represents a certain value 612 00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:46,560 within an ecosystem created to solve a certain problem or 613 00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:50,560 fulfill a certain need, which is totally different than than 614 00:35:50,560 --> 00:35:57,840 Bitcoin, which is a Nobel Prize level discovery or invention of 615 00:35:57,840 --> 00:36:01,000 something that we've never seen in the world that that, for 616 00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:04,200 example, might, you know, provable finite digital 617 00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:05,960 scarcity. It's with Michael Saylor 618 00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:07,840 compares it to time. There. 619 00:36:08,040 --> 00:36:12,920 The only thing in in our real, you know, life that you can 620 00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:17,880 compare Bitcoin to is time, which is incredibly crazy to 621 00:36:17,880 --> 00:36:20,920 say, like I didn't like me five years ago. 622 00:36:20,920 --> 00:36:24,400 Wouldn't think, you know, that, that I would say this now, but I 623 00:36:24,400 --> 00:36:29,600 do see it. It's, it's that like we 624 00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:33,320 discovered scarcity, like true, true, verifiable scarcity, which 625 00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:37,240 is once, once you dive into that more, it just touches upon 626 00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:40,040 everything, everything in our lives. 627 00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:43,160 Every I, I, I say to my like progressive millennial friends, 628 00:36:43,160 --> 00:36:46,440 like everything you would want to fix in the world is broken 629 00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:49,400 because the money is broken. Broken money creates wrong 630 00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:51,320 incentives. So we have to fix the money and 631 00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:56,200 we can only fix the money if we have an apolitical, a religious, 632 00:36:56,200 --> 00:36:59,880 like all these things, just a, a neutral decentralized money that 633 00:36:59,880 --> 00:37:03,320 we can use to exchange value with each other. 634 00:37:03,720 --> 00:37:06,160 So that's kind of how I, how I explained it now. 635 00:37:06,160 --> 00:37:10,120 But but I had to do the shit coining before I did the 636 00:37:10,120 --> 00:37:14,280 bitcoining more because it's it when you, when you, when you 637 00:37:14,280 --> 00:37:17,920 like technology or like digital products or the Internet, 638 00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:22,400 etcetera, you know, you hear something like blockchain and 639 00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:26,040 you know, all these, all these projects use a form of a 640 00:37:26,040 --> 00:37:29,080 blockchain, right? And so if you just look at it 641 00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:32,720 from a blockchain perspective, then every everything is in the 642 00:37:32,720 --> 00:37:36,800 same buckets basically. There it comes, right? 643 00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:41,360 This is where you, so you can have the most beautiful stories 644 00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:44,360 and you know, in the in the Bitcoin world, you, you will see 645 00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:48,800 a lot of people in podcast with the most beautiful stories, but 646 00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:50,760 it all comes back to physical reality. 647 00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:54,400 And then the question is always very simple. 648 00:37:55,880 --> 00:38:01,040 Where do you have the database? Because it's very simple. 649 00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:05,400 Your bank account these days, it's your phone, right? 650 00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:07,880 So the bank account is on the phone. 651 00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:10,600 It's just ones and zeros in a database. 652 00:38:10,600 --> 00:38:15,080 Where is the freaking database? How many people make use of this 653 00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:19,560 database? So how many people actually work 654 00:38:19,720 --> 00:38:22,600 on this database? And is this an open database or 655 00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:25,280 a closed database? That's the core physical 656 00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:28,880 questions and it's one and 0. So it's transistors, they're 657 00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:31,000 just very small, but it's physical, all right. 658 00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:33,640 So it's really a one and a zero. It's a one and a zero. 659 00:38:34,200 --> 00:38:38,480 And then the question is, if you look at the physical reality, is 660 00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:44,040 it not many databases, you know, and is the entire history stored 661 00:38:44,680 --> 00:38:47,480 or not? And then if you just ask these 662 00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:55,200 very basic questions, like 99% becomes very difficult to 663 00:38:55,200 --> 00:39:00,920 explain because, OK, is someone checking the entire history of 664 00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:02,360 what happened? Yeah. 665 00:39:02,720 --> 00:39:05,560 In Bitcoin, it's like the entire history. 666 00:39:05,760 --> 00:39:09,160 Everyone is running a super cheap computer at home with a 667 00:39:09,160 --> 00:39:12,960 small hard disk, and they are all doing the entire history 668 00:39:12,960 --> 00:39:14,880 check. And everything is there. 669 00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:18,400 And there's so many people across the globe doing this. 670 00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:21,560 And then the miners, there are so many people, you know, 671 00:39:21,560 --> 00:39:25,840 plugging in now open source, you know, like bit access everywhere 672 00:39:25,840 --> 00:39:28,920 across across the globe. Everyone is mining little 673 00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:32,040 blocks. You know, everyone wants to 674 00:39:32,120 --> 00:39:34,200 participate on this global network. 675 00:39:34,520 --> 00:39:37,800 The physical touch point, the physical hardware is with 676 00:39:37,800 --> 00:39:40,880 Bitcoin. And that's where we also see the 677 00:39:40,880 --> 00:39:44,280 attack factor of the energy, you know, like all bad for the 678 00:39:44,280 --> 00:39:47,400 environment. I have the sticker here which 679 00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:50,480 says 0 emission electric miner, right? 680 00:39:50,640 --> 00:39:54,840 No, but literally, if you don't have sufficient machines in the 681 00:39:54,840 --> 00:39:59,000 physical reality, then the system will be captured. 682 00:39:59,560 --> 00:40:04,160 That's just how it works, because you physically capture 683 00:40:04,160 --> 00:40:07,360 the database where the transactions are happening. 684 00:40:07,640 --> 00:40:13,000 And as all transactions these days are happening digitally, so 685 00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:16,680 on the fucking database somewhere you know this is the 686 00:40:16,680 --> 00:40:19,520 attack factor. And that's also in a broader 687 00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:23,680 game theoretical perspective. That's where you see this play 688 00:40:23,680 --> 00:40:26,200 out, right. So you have this super tiny bank 689 00:40:26,200 --> 00:40:28,200 in the Netherlands. Where are the databases? 690 00:40:28,480 --> 00:40:31,840 Probably some foreign power knows where these databases are. 691 00:40:32,120 --> 00:40:35,120 So if they drop these three bombs where they have these 692 00:40:35,120 --> 00:40:37,120 databases, the entire bank is gone. 693 00:40:37,600 --> 00:40:41,000 Yeah, this is something that is not in anyone's mind, right? 694 00:40:41,680 --> 00:40:44,720 Yes. It's this is so scary also from 695 00:40:44,720 --> 00:40:47,160 my perspective. So for me, like Bitcoin, which 696 00:40:47,160 --> 00:40:51,520 is like everything is naked, it will still run, you know, like 697 00:40:51,880 --> 00:40:56,880 it's just like such a solid digital monetary database that 698 00:40:56,880 --> 00:41:00,040 will always work no matter what happens across the globe. 699 00:41:00,520 --> 00:41:03,240 And I can't say that for any other monetary system. 700 00:41:03,920 --> 00:41:09,000 So this goes back to what we said, what I said to you before 701 00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:14,960 we started recording. This is factually true, OK, One, 702 00:41:15,120 --> 00:41:17,880 if people hear this right, because out by the way, I would 703 00:41:17,880 --> 00:41:19,760 even say the database is not on your phone. 704 00:41:19,760 --> 00:41:23,440 Your phone is a viewer for one number in the entire database, 705 00:41:23,440 --> 00:41:25,360 right? And then that number in your 706 00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:29,760 banking app does not represent real coins and and and bills 707 00:41:29,760 --> 00:41:34,200 that are stored in in in in a vault like Scrooge Mcduck, 708 00:41:34,200 --> 00:41:35,640 right? They are not there. 709 00:41:36,240 --> 00:41:40,760 OK, But let's say you hear this factual truth. 710 00:41:42,560 --> 00:41:47,080 Most people will not act on this because it's very harsh. 711 00:41:47,080 --> 00:41:52,800 Like, like the implications of what you are saying are are are 712 00:41:52,880 --> 00:41:58,920 are world view shattering because you are trusting a third 713 00:41:58,920 --> 00:42:03,840 party to store the monetary energy that that you gathered 714 00:42:03,840 --> 00:42:06,520 with your job or your venture. Yeah. 715 00:42:08,040 --> 00:42:12,920 And that is real. Your time is real, your energy 716 00:42:12,920 --> 00:42:16,520 is real, right? And then you store that reward 717 00:42:16,520 --> 00:42:19,640 into something that is not real. It's not real. 718 00:42:19,880 --> 00:42:22,440 It's, it's literally fake. It's fake. 719 00:42:22,440 --> 00:42:27,240 And it's not there, you know, and, and that is, is so hard. 720 00:42:27,240 --> 00:42:31,400 It's so hard to to actually integrate that realization 721 00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:33,520 because that. Goes yeah, but you're saying 722 00:42:33,520 --> 00:42:35,280 it's not. It's actually real because it's 723 00:42:35,360 --> 00:42:38,240 physical ones and zeros in a certain database somewhere. 724 00:42:38,240 --> 00:42:40,120 OK. It's just like, what does it 725 00:42:40,120 --> 00:42:41,440 represent? And that's where. 726 00:42:41,440 --> 00:42:42,760 You come back. That's a good point, yeah. 727 00:42:42,840 --> 00:42:46,920 So so because. In the perception you have of 728 00:42:46,920 --> 00:42:48,160 it, let's let's. Call it that. 729 00:42:48,280 --> 00:42:52,200 Just just just take this one step further or back. 730 00:42:52,400 --> 00:42:55,720 I think you're back because back if you go one step back, it's 731 00:42:55,720 --> 00:42:58,920 just if you have this bank which actually has this database of 732 00:42:58,920 --> 00:43:02,360 this ones and zeros, do you actually want to be part of this 733 00:43:02,360 --> 00:43:06,320 small database for a couple million people somewhere local, 734 00:43:06,400 --> 00:43:09,320 you know, on this planet? No, I actually prefer to be in a 735 00:43:09,320 --> 00:43:13,200 database where actually the ones and zeros are distributed across 736 00:43:13,200 --> 00:43:16,360 the planet and everyone can check on these ones and zeros 737 00:43:16,360 --> 00:43:19,360 too, right. So the bank will never fail. 738 00:43:19,600 --> 00:43:24,000 So just looking at it from the bank perspective and also on the 739 00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:26,680 physical level. And I think that's also 740 00:43:26,680 --> 00:43:30,440 something that we in general don't really talk about with 741 00:43:30,440 --> 00:43:32,960 Bitcoin. But if you just go through the 742 00:43:32,960 --> 00:43:39,600 story physically, then it becomes quite apparent that it's 743 00:43:39,640 --> 00:43:43,560 all ones and zeros. And that's actually quite scary 744 00:43:43,560 --> 00:43:49,520 for many, many people because not that long ago, it was felt 745 00:43:49,520 --> 00:43:52,040 as being physical. And most people still believe 746 00:43:52,040 --> 00:43:54,680 it's indeed something physical. And that's where you also say 747 00:43:55,000 --> 00:43:59,400 it's not real. And then if you just talk here 748 00:43:59,480 --> 00:44:02,040 on the street with people, they say a Bitcoin, I can't touch it. 749 00:44:03,480 --> 00:44:06,040 And then exactly, you come to the point, yeah, but you can't 750 00:44:06,040 --> 00:44:08,880 touch your euro, right? No, no, I have this banknote. 751 00:44:09,040 --> 00:44:11,440 You know, I have this and I can touch it. 752 00:44:12,440 --> 00:44:15,960 And that's where people still have this physical 753 00:44:15,960 --> 00:44:17,160 representation. Where? 754 00:44:17,440 --> 00:44:20,200 They see value. Well, it's funny because that 755 00:44:20,200 --> 00:44:23,680 bank note is not the same as bank money, right? 756 00:44:23,960 --> 00:44:27,800 That the currency note the the the right that that's the 757 00:44:27,800 --> 00:44:30,400 government money. That's not the bank slash 758 00:44:30,440 --> 00:44:34,480 private private money, right? And so even well, that that's a 759 00:44:34,560 --> 00:44:37,320 that's a that's a whole podcast by itself, I'd say. 760 00:44:37,680 --> 00:44:40,640 But but that's what I mean with the perception of it, right? 761 00:44:40,640 --> 00:44:43,440 And I think when you say it's one sincerest, I think it's a 762 00:44:43,440 --> 00:44:46,640 great example, right? You are just in one database. 763 00:44:46,680 --> 00:44:50,000 Let's say you are with one bank. You were in one database of one 764 00:44:50,360 --> 00:44:52,520 bank. That's where all the numbers get 765 00:44:52,520 --> 00:44:54,160 crunched. And when you look at your bank 766 00:44:54,160 --> 00:44:56,640 app and you see a number, it's literally the number that's in 767 00:44:56,640 --> 00:44:59,600 the database at with your account number, right? 768 00:45:00,160 --> 00:45:03,200 Sometimes in the Netherlands we've seen that people had the 769 00:45:03,200 --> 00:45:05,920 wrong amount on their app, right? 770 00:45:06,360 --> 00:45:08,320 It's great, right? Oh my. 771 00:45:08,720 --> 00:45:13,760 God, it's but, but, but these, the, the fact that these things 772 00:45:13,760 --> 00:45:16,480 happen and are real and they're like, oh, we had a problem with 773 00:45:16,480 --> 00:45:18,800 our database, right? And now we fixed it like 774 00:45:19,640 --> 00:45:24,720 millions of people trust the PR message like that. 775 00:45:25,320 --> 00:45:31,040 Oh, the bank fixed it for me. Well, Julia, yes, now, now, now 776 00:45:31,040 --> 00:45:35,120 it's correct again, correct. And, and that is, I think, you 777 00:45:35,120 --> 00:45:38,960 know, what we see now is just that that behavior is something 778 00:45:38,960 --> 00:45:44,520 that's eventually you have to run into yourself in some way, 779 00:45:44,520 --> 00:45:47,280 right? Because you are you, you are, 780 00:45:47,600 --> 00:45:49,800 how do you say that? Like outsourcing your 781 00:45:49,800 --> 00:45:53,160 responsibility over that money to some company, some random 782 00:45:53,160 --> 00:45:57,000 engineers at, at a random bank that fix the database for you? 783 00:45:57,120 --> 00:46:00,440 Like wow, you know, and, and, and as you said, the, the 784 00:46:00,440 --> 00:46:06,000 Bitcoin database is zeros and ones, but it's checked by 20,000 785 00:46:06,000 --> 00:46:09,520 nodes every 10 minutes, you know, every, at any moment 786 00:46:09,560 --> 00:46:12,640 basically. And that is what should give you 787 00:46:12,640 --> 00:46:15,360 the safety. You know that that is what 788 00:46:15,360 --> 00:46:18,000 actually gives you the safety and they are zeros and ones. 789 00:46:18,240 --> 00:46:21,760 But, and also when someone says it's not physical, I can write 790 00:46:21,760 --> 00:46:24,800 down letters and numbers with a pen on the paper and it can 791 00:46:24,800 --> 00:46:29,040 represent a billion dollars. Like that is for me that is mind 792 00:46:29,040 --> 00:46:31,800 blowing about Bitcoin that how tangible is that? 793 00:46:32,080 --> 00:46:33,800 You know it's just letters and numbers. 794 00:46:34,080 --> 00:46:36,080 No. But in the end, again, like 795 00:46:36,920 --> 00:46:41,080 already more than a decade ago, I always said like if Apple, you 796 00:46:41,080 --> 00:46:45,960 know, comes with their Apple money and Apple Bank, you know, 797 00:46:46,120 --> 00:46:50,920 I would probably just dump all my EUR into the Apple Bank 798 00:46:50,920 --> 00:46:54,480 account because I have more trust in Apple than in any bank 799 00:46:54,480 --> 00:46:57,920 in this country. Because the scary part about the 800 00:46:57,920 --> 00:47:02,320 banks is they are just built for this couple of million people in 801 00:47:02,320 --> 00:47:07,160 this small location on this planet with bad databasing and 802 00:47:07,160 --> 00:47:10,760 poor engineering because it's like too local, it's too small. 803 00:47:10,760 --> 00:47:14,840 It's not built for the masses. So I would expect that like 804 00:47:14,840 --> 00:47:17,480 Apple would become a bank and then everyone would dump their 805 00:47:17,480 --> 00:47:20,640 money with Apple and then at least you would be running your 806 00:47:20,640 --> 00:47:24,080 bank there. But of course, like Facebook 807 00:47:24,080 --> 00:47:27,640 tried this, right? Facebook tried to bring the 808 00:47:27,640 --> 00:47:31,280 Libra there and then government doesn't allow this. 809 00:47:31,280 --> 00:47:35,920 So the The thing is that even if you would expect this to happen, 810 00:47:36,240 --> 00:47:40,760 governments are not allowing it and it's all being killed. 811 00:47:41,160 --> 00:47:44,680 So the only thing that that can survive now is something that 812 00:47:44,680 --> 00:47:48,000 comes in a slight roundabout way that they can stop. 813 00:47:48,640 --> 00:47:50,800 And that's where we are at now, right? 814 00:47:50,800 --> 00:47:55,800 So we are now at the point where we need this all to be safe 815 00:47:57,160 --> 00:48:01,880 first and foremost, I think, and then for for the future of 816 00:48:01,880 --> 00:48:06,320 mankind to actually trade in peace with everyone in the 817 00:48:06,320 --> 00:48:10,480 fastest way, Internet money, magic Internet money, so we can 818 00:48:10,480 --> 00:48:16,680 all cooperate on a global scale. The only place where I see this 819 00:48:16,680 --> 00:48:19,720 happening is currently Bitcoin. I don't see it in any other way. 820 00:48:20,440 --> 00:48:23,080 And that's where I would love to see it go. 821 00:48:23,080 --> 00:48:27,880 And before Bitcoin, my mind was more on like some really global 822 00:48:27,880 --> 00:48:32,000 corporations that are global anyway that would perform this 823 00:48:32,000 --> 00:48:35,960 bank task. But now, you know, we have a 824 00:48:35,960 --> 00:48:39,400 much better system where these global corporations can't 825 00:48:39,400 --> 00:48:44,080 corrupt this databasing system. And this is where we are at now. 826 00:48:44,080 --> 00:48:49,400 So, and I hope to see in the next few years some of these 827 00:48:49,400 --> 00:48:54,360 large global corporations actually, you know, implement 828 00:48:54,360 --> 00:48:58,000 Bitcoin into their company. And I think we saw a glimpse of 829 00:48:58,000 --> 00:49:00,560 that already with Tesla, right? So they started accepting 830 00:49:00,560 --> 00:49:05,280 Bitcoin in in the US. They used BTC pay server there, 831 00:49:05,280 --> 00:49:10,640 you know, but why did they stop? And I think this is like a 832 00:49:10,640 --> 00:49:13,880 similar story as to what you see with Facebook, You know, you try 833 00:49:13,880 --> 00:49:17,200 to build something, but you they were even stopped before it got 834 00:49:17,200 --> 00:49:20,480 live. Like if the Chinese would just 835 00:49:20,480 --> 00:49:25,120 say to to Musk, Oh, nice, you accept Bitcoin, we take your 836 00:49:25,120 --> 00:49:27,360 factory. I think you will stop accepting 837 00:49:27,360 --> 00:49:30,280 Bitcoin, Right. So these corporations can all be 838 00:49:30,280 --> 00:49:34,680 pressured as such a great amount by these governments. 839 00:49:35,600 --> 00:49:39,040 But at some point, game theory comes in play and and that's the 840 00:49:39,040 --> 00:49:41,960 tipping point. And we will see that in the next 841 00:49:41,960 --> 00:49:43,320 couple of years. Yeah. 842 00:49:43,320 --> 00:49:46,560 But yeah. This is so fascinating. 843 00:49:46,560 --> 00:49:49,720 This, this is this, I, I love that you give this example 844 00:49:49,720 --> 00:49:55,200 because this, these are these little incidents that could show 845 00:49:55,200 --> 00:50:01,640 you that, for example, in the example you had, right, like 846 00:50:01,640 --> 00:50:06,760 let's say governments against Libra or, you know, any type of 847 00:50:07,880 --> 00:50:12,280 attempt to create another money is instantly killed by 848 00:50:12,280 --> 00:50:16,880 governments, you know, for your, for your protection, you know, 849 00:50:17,520 --> 00:50:20,040 and it's, it's these little incidents. 850 00:50:20,240 --> 00:50:23,600 I hope that will show people that, no, it's not in your 851 00:50:23,600 --> 00:50:25,400 interest. It's in the interest of the 852 00:50:25,400 --> 00:50:28,680 entity that's creating the money, you know, which is a very 853 00:50:28,680 --> 00:50:31,240 logical conclusion. It doesn't even have to be in a 854 00:50:31,240 --> 00:50:34,360 malicious way or evil or blah, blah, like all these things. 855 00:50:34,680 --> 00:50:38,880 It's just for the conservation of the entity that that is the 856 00:50:38,880 --> 00:50:42,160 government, right? And, and so it's just a logical, 857 00:50:42,520 --> 00:50:44,760 it's just a logical thing. And I think, I think it's 858 00:50:44,880 --> 00:50:46,920 important to emphasize that too, right? 859 00:50:46,920 --> 00:50:50,240 It's not about like, oh, someone controls the money and they're 860 00:50:50,240 --> 00:50:52,480 bad and evil and blah, blah. No, they control the money and 861 00:50:52,480 --> 00:50:55,320 they want to keep it that way. Like, of course, duh you. 862 00:50:56,360 --> 00:51:00,280 Want to you want to to to to keep the control there that you 863 00:51:00,360 --> 00:51:02,640 that you already have and yeah, if. 864 00:51:02,720 --> 00:51:08,080 Imagine if it's so easy to subvert a currency with just a 865 00:51:08,080 --> 00:51:10,480 few companies, you know, like the Libra project that are like, 866 00:51:10,480 --> 00:51:12,560 oh, well, yeah, let's let's try this out. 867 00:51:13,360 --> 00:51:16,480 That was enough. That was enough a signal. 868 00:51:16,560 --> 00:51:19,920 It didn't even launch. It was already enough of a 869 00:51:19,920 --> 00:51:23,920 signal for the government, the US government to say no, no, 870 00:51:23,920 --> 00:51:27,280 that's not going to happen. How much more of a signal do you 871 00:51:27,280 --> 00:51:29,880 need? It's so fragile that that even 872 00:51:29,880 --> 00:51:33,560 the concept of talking about it and and and launching a presser 873 00:51:34,480 --> 00:51:36,280 gives and. And, and taking them back to 874 00:51:36,280 --> 00:51:41,320 China have you have of course we pay, you know, and Alipay there 875 00:51:42,360 --> 00:51:48,480 who was controlling Ali pay, you know, like Mr. Alibaba, Jack got 876 00:51:48,520 --> 00:51:52,000 quite some issues at some point. And at some point everyone was 877 00:51:52,000 --> 00:51:55,760 oh, where where did Jack go? You know, like, yeah, yeah. 878 00:51:55,760 --> 00:52:00,160 So you become too powerful. You become simply too powerful. 879 00:52:00,160 --> 00:52:03,120 And then, of course, government comes in and that's just how it 880 00:52:03,120 --> 00:52:07,400 works, you know, and look at Mr. Finance now, you know he's in 881 00:52:07,400 --> 00:52:11,120 jail. When you become too big, they 882 00:52:11,120 --> 00:52:15,520 will come for you. So it has to be millions and 883 00:52:15,520 --> 00:52:19,960 millions of people that just run it and do it. 884 00:52:20,280 --> 00:52:22,640 And then at some point it will, it will work out. 885 00:52:22,640 --> 00:52:25,640 But that's the struggle where it's going to go through. 886 00:52:26,200 --> 00:52:28,160 Yeah. All right. 887 00:52:28,160 --> 00:52:31,560 So now my second question. Did we just answer the 1st? 888 00:52:32,160 --> 00:52:34,760 No, I don't know. We just, we just went for it 889 00:52:35,360 --> 00:52:36,840 now, but like we're talking about this. 890 00:52:36,840 --> 00:52:39,560 And I wanted to ask you also like you are, you are a fellow 891 00:52:39,560 --> 00:52:43,120 millennial, you know, and I always ask like all the all the 892 00:52:43,120 --> 00:52:46,280 guests, especially when they are millennials, like we are just 893 00:52:46,720 --> 00:52:49,440 shooting the shit here, you know, like, how do you 894 00:52:49,440 --> 00:52:52,760 experience talking about Bitcoin with like other millennials? 895 00:52:52,760 --> 00:52:56,560 Do you have like, like you, you probably have people in your 896 00:52:56,560 --> 00:52:59,880 life that are not into Bitcoin that are maybe bored by you just 897 00:52:59,880 --> 00:53:01,520 talking about it all the time. Like how? 898 00:53:02,080 --> 00:53:04,280 How does? What does your environment look 899 00:53:04,280 --> 00:53:09,640 like? Yeah, so I have a lot of friends 900 00:53:09,640 --> 00:53:14,240 who are not in Bitcoin at all. And of course I gave, when they 901 00:53:14,560 --> 00:53:18,080 got children, I gave them Bitcoin and I said on an open 902 00:53:18,080 --> 00:53:22,920 dime, you know, I just put it in your vault and let them come 903 00:53:22,920 --> 00:53:26,320 after 10 years because then we will check the chip quality, if 904 00:53:26,320 --> 00:53:28,600 it's still OK and then probably put it somewhere else. 905 00:53:29,280 --> 00:53:32,480 But at least that they can go and study when they are turning 906 00:53:32,480 --> 00:53:35,280 18 or 20. So I did that with all my 907 00:53:35,280 --> 00:53:39,280 friends and they, they, I think they, they thought because it's 908 00:53:39,280 --> 00:53:42,520 already quite a while ago that I'm a, I'm a bit of a strange 909 00:53:42,520 --> 00:53:47,920 guy in that sense, you know, like maybe not not thinking too 910 00:53:47,920 --> 00:53:52,560 positive or something about the future with Bitcoin, but I'm 911 00:53:52,560 --> 00:53:56,560 actually really positive in that sense because I see this shining 912 00:53:56,560 --> 00:54:01,200 light there. And Bitcoin will bring a lot of 913 00:54:01,200 --> 00:54:06,480 good for the next generations. The question is where these 914 00:54:06,480 --> 00:54:09,080 locations that move first will be. 915 00:54:09,800 --> 00:54:11,560 And I think we already see some glimpses there. 916 00:54:11,560 --> 00:54:16,400 But if in that sense, you know, the Netherlands is not the 917 00:54:16,400 --> 00:54:21,640 shining light, then a lot of people will leave that I know. 918 00:54:21,920 --> 00:54:25,200 And a lot of people have already left, but I think it will 919 00:54:25,200 --> 00:54:29,160 increase rapidly. So, but also people that are not 920 00:54:29,160 --> 00:54:34,040 into Bitcoin at all, right? So it's just like when it 921 00:54:34,040 --> 00:54:39,880 becomes so much more expensive to to be here, while you can 922 00:54:39,880 --> 00:54:43,920 earn a similar amount but keep so much more somewhere else, a 923 00:54:43,920 --> 00:54:45,240 lot of people will want to leave. 924 00:54:46,080 --> 00:54:50,480 And that's something that I in general see in my generation. 925 00:54:50,480 --> 00:54:55,680 So people don't have a solid base anymore and that's where I 926 00:54:55,680 --> 00:54:57,480 grew up in. So if I just go back to my 927 00:54:57,480 --> 00:55:00,040 parents, you know, it was super solid. 928 00:55:00,040 --> 00:55:04,000 I grew up between all the farms, you know, 4 kilometers of 929 00:55:04,000 --> 00:55:08,200 nothing to see. We ran around on the on the ice 930 00:55:08,200 --> 00:55:12,840 in the winter and really enjoyed, enjoyed the farmers 931 00:55:13,120 --> 00:55:15,680 life, let's say. And I always thought that I 932 00:55:15,680 --> 00:55:19,400 would live there forever, you know, and maybe travel a lot, 933 00:55:19,400 --> 00:55:25,400 but that would be my base. And currently, I don't see this 934 00:55:25,400 --> 00:55:28,480 as a base. And I think more than half of my 935 00:55:29,880 --> 00:55:34,240 friends that are around my age are also looking at it in a more 936 00:55:34,520 --> 00:55:36,640 fluent way. And this is really bad, right? 937 00:55:36,640 --> 00:55:41,440 Because you need a solid base to actually build things for the 938 00:55:41,440 --> 00:55:42,920 long term. Yes. 939 00:55:43,080 --> 00:55:50,320 And that's something that, that I, I really sense and feel and 940 00:55:50,320 --> 00:55:56,120 that that of course, is not in that sense positive, but these 941 00:55:56,120 --> 00:55:58,640 shining lights that are there where people might move and 942 00:55:58,640 --> 00:56:02,200 really build, you know, like do their proof of work and build it 943 00:56:02,200 --> 00:56:04,000 up. And I think we see that and 944 00:56:04,000 --> 00:56:08,960 these shining stars that are, are popping up already that I 945 00:56:08,960 --> 00:56:11,680 hope to achieve here because that would bring a bright future 946 00:56:11,680 --> 00:56:13,480 here. And that's where I'm still like 947 00:56:13,560 --> 00:56:15,760 hoping for and, and building towards too. 948 00:56:15,800 --> 00:56:20,400 So I really want to show I, I send a letter to the the finance 949 00:56:20,400 --> 00:56:23,680 department in the Netherlands with an open invitation. 950 00:56:24,320 --> 00:56:27,960 Come look at our companies, You know, the exchanges that we 951 00:56:27,960 --> 00:56:30,000 have. We have really great exchanges 952 00:56:30,000 --> 00:56:33,240 in the Netherlands with proper proof of reserves, you know, 953 00:56:33,240 --> 00:56:34,880 like something that you want to see. 954 00:56:35,400 --> 00:56:39,920 Next to that, we have very impressive mining facilities, 955 00:56:40,160 --> 00:56:44,320 stabilizing our grid and heating our food in the greenhouses. 956 00:56:45,280 --> 00:56:48,400 I want to show you this. Please come along and see what 957 00:56:48,400 --> 00:56:50,680 this means. You know, like in a broad sense 958 00:56:51,520 --> 00:56:57,240 and you still don't get a reply. And that's something that in 959 00:56:57,240 --> 00:56:59,360 that sense scares me. So as I'm saying, next week, I'm 960 00:56:59,360 --> 00:57:02,000 in Parliament, but that's not the broad range. 961 00:57:02,000 --> 00:57:05,600 I want to, to, to have the entire, you know, like finance 962 00:57:05,600 --> 00:57:10,000 department, you know, from all parties left and right. 963 00:57:10,160 --> 00:57:15,240 I want them to at least be curious and, and take up this 964 00:57:15,240 --> 00:57:18,600 invitation and then see what we're actually building and what 965 00:57:18,600 --> 00:57:22,640 we're doing because I don't think many people have an idea. 966 00:57:22,640 --> 00:57:25,720 So if you look at NSC, one of the largest political parties 967 00:57:25,720 --> 00:57:28,160 now in the Netherlands, it was very nice because we had a 968 00:57:28,400 --> 00:57:32,360 debate about cryptocurrency and they they actually, there's a 969 00:57:32,360 --> 00:57:38,920 really nice passage passage in the, in the, in the how do you 970 00:57:38,920 --> 00:57:41,480 say that? Yeah, the no agreement where 971 00:57:41,640 --> 00:57:46,000 they actually said, yeah, Bitcoin is anonymous, but isn't 972 00:57:46,000 --> 00:57:50,200 it also a transparent Ledger? So they were actually 973 00:57:50,200 --> 00:57:52,080 contradicting themselves in this sentence. 974 00:57:52,080 --> 00:57:55,800 And the NSC group was asking this question. 975 00:57:55,960 --> 00:58:00,080 So you see the lack of education that is still there with one of 976 00:58:00,080 --> 00:58:02,960 the largest political parties. And that's something that we 977 00:58:02,960 --> 00:58:06,040 really need to speed up. But they need to be open for it, 978 00:58:06,040 --> 00:58:07,640 right? Because, yeah, we can bang the 979 00:58:07,640 --> 00:58:10,160 doors whatever we want. But if they're not open for it, 980 00:58:10,160 --> 00:58:13,600 yeah, then these questions will be asked for for the next couple 981 00:58:13,600 --> 00:58:17,840 of years still, Yeah. Yeah, I agree. 982 00:58:17,840 --> 00:58:22,480 And it's also it's, I don't think it's a surprise that they 983 00:58:22,480 --> 00:58:25,600 are not educated, right. I think eventually it's all 984 00:58:25,600 --> 00:58:30,280 about about the incentives and the incentive. 985 00:58:31,080 --> 00:58:33,480 Well, it depends. I think the incentive to look at 986 00:58:33,480 --> 00:58:37,040 something alternative like Bitcoin is super relevant. 987 00:58:37,560 --> 00:58:40,760 I think that's what we both see and a lot of people see. 988 00:58:41,280 --> 00:58:46,360 But yeah, when you're in the center of, of power, that is 989 00:58:46,360 --> 00:58:50,560 probably outside of your your field of, of vision in some 990 00:58:50,560 --> 00:58:52,840 sense, right? Like if you don't have to take 991 00:58:52,840 --> 00:58:56,280 it seriously, then why why, why would you, right. 992 00:58:56,280 --> 00:58:59,840 But for me, that that also ties back to that game theory, right? 993 00:58:59,840 --> 00:59:04,760 Like it's that, that, that, that hubris in some sense that 994 00:59:05,200 --> 00:59:08,680 actually makes them finish or get it lost. 995 00:59:09,280 --> 00:59:12,520 And that is so fascinating. Like that paradox for me is very 996 00:59:12,520 --> 00:59:18,160 fascinating that that like you, that, that what you've built, 997 00:59:18,160 --> 00:59:21,320 you know, and especially our country, if we don't maintain it 998 00:59:21,320 --> 00:59:25,560 or, or, or stay vigilant about what we have and appreciate what 999 00:59:25,560 --> 00:59:29,440 we have, you know, we will not be humble enough to see anything 1000 00:59:29,440 --> 00:59:30,880 new that's happening in the world. 1001 00:59:31,080 --> 00:59:34,720 And the funny fact is that literally our country already 1002 00:59:34,720 --> 00:59:38,280 experienced the downfall of being the global reserve 1003 00:59:38,280 --> 00:59:41,800 currency, right? So it already happened in the, 1004 00:59:41,880 --> 00:59:44,680 in the past and I, I, I love that paradox. 1005 00:59:44,680 --> 00:59:46,640 I, I, I love it. I absolutely love it. 1006 00:59:46,640 --> 00:59:48,960 It's the same as with like corporate innovation, right? 1007 00:59:48,960 --> 00:59:54,360 Like most corporate companies are, are already unbundled by 1008 00:59:54,480 --> 00:59:57,920 thousands of startups that take like, you know, do one little 1009 00:59:57,920 --> 01:00:00,800 service of what they have put together in for example, you 1010 01:00:00,800 --> 01:00:03,720 know, let's say a traditional finance corporate, like they, 1011 01:00:03,880 --> 01:00:06,800 they, they don't realize that they are already done. 1012 01:00:07,080 --> 01:00:10,480 But they have some sort of cash cow that keeps them running for 1013 01:00:10,480 --> 01:00:12,000 a few years and the same, you know. 1014 01:00:12,280 --> 01:00:15,560 Exactly what you're saying, like the interesting part is here, 1015 01:00:15,560 --> 01:00:20,480 like if you go back to that old reserve currency status, it's 1016 01:00:20,480 --> 01:00:24,120 really well documented there. So in the Netherlands, we had 1017 01:00:24,120 --> 01:00:27,200 the house prices in Amsterdam. They were perfectly documented. 1018 01:00:27,200 --> 01:00:31,480 And then when the new world reserve currency came, the house 1019 01:00:31,480 --> 01:00:38,040 prices in the new currency actually became that all the 1020 01:00:38,040 --> 01:00:40,280 house prices in Amsterdam dropped 80%. 1021 01:00:41,720 --> 01:00:45,640 So the entire real estate in Amsterdam was devalued with 80% 1022 01:00:45,960 --> 01:00:50,000 on average. And if you, if you think about 1023 01:00:50,000 --> 01:00:56,840 this back then, then you see the store of value being now in real 1024 01:00:56,840 --> 01:01:01,480 estate in the Netherlands. Like I had some real estate and 1025 01:01:01,480 --> 01:01:05,760 I sold it because I felt like this was not going to be 1026 01:01:05,760 --> 01:01:11,080 sustainable where we are in and expressed in the new reserve 1027 01:01:11,080 --> 01:01:14,840 currency, you'll be fucked if you hold this currency right. 1028 01:01:15,240 --> 01:01:18,520 And if you in this currency where you're in OK, it looks 1029 01:01:18,520 --> 01:01:22,880 still going up, but in the new world reserve currency, you're 1030 01:01:22,880 --> 01:01:27,200 losing a ton. So, and that's actually what we, 1031 01:01:27,200 --> 01:01:30,640 what we already experienced a little bit in Bitcoin, but it 1032 01:01:30,640 --> 01:01:34,680 will, it will, it will become much more clear in the next 1033 01:01:34,680 --> 01:01:38,920 couple of years that real estate is just simply not the safe 1034 01:01:38,920 --> 01:01:42,640 haven. And when I, yeah, when I say to 1035 01:01:42,640 --> 01:01:48,920 people that real estate is not going up forever and then people 1036 01:01:48,920 --> 01:01:53,400 don't believe me still. So yeah, I think this paradigm 1037 01:01:53,400 --> 01:01:56,800 shift will come, but it will take time. 1038 01:01:58,240 --> 01:02:00,680 Yeah, definitely will take time. And you see, you know, what I 1039 01:02:00,680 --> 01:02:04,240 like is it's already happening. What you are saying is already 1040 01:02:04,240 --> 01:02:08,920 happening, right? And so I, I think it is a fight, 1041 01:02:08,920 --> 01:02:10,560 right? As you illustrated, it is a 1042 01:02:10,560 --> 01:02:12,400 fight. We have to educate people. 1043 01:02:12,680 --> 01:02:16,400 But but in some sense, like the truth is on our side because we 1044 01:02:16,400 --> 01:02:20,040 have proof. You know, it's, I, I had a tweet 1045 01:02:20,040 --> 01:02:24,040 yesterday, like there was a video I saw by a guy who 1046 01:02:24,040 --> 01:02:26,840 explained like believing versus knowing. 1047 01:02:27,200 --> 01:02:29,680 And you can only believe in something if you don't know it, 1048 01:02:29,840 --> 01:02:31,640 for example. And I said, well, crypto is 1049 01:02:31,640 --> 01:02:35,120 believing, you know, Bitcoin is knowing, but it's, it's, it's, 1050 01:02:35,440 --> 01:02:39,720 it's the knowing part that is nice, but also frustrating, 1051 01:02:39,720 --> 01:02:42,080 right? Because I honestly think and, 1052 01:02:42,080 --> 01:02:46,760 and, and also for you, we could sit in any, you know, theater or 1053 01:02:46,760 --> 01:02:50,120 whatever, like some room and people could ask us any question 1054 01:02:50,120 --> 01:02:54,720 and we would have any, all the answers to that question and, 1055 01:02:54,720 --> 01:02:56,840 and ask people questions back as well, right? 1056 01:02:56,840 --> 01:02:59,120 Like, why do you think this or why do you ask this? 1057 01:02:59,120 --> 01:03:01,920 Can you explain this to me? You know, like, I know that we 1058 01:03:01,920 --> 01:03:05,040 know, right? But that doesn't mean that other 1059 01:03:05,040 --> 01:03:07,880 people know and they still believe in this other thing, you 1060 01:03:07,920 --> 01:03:11,240 know, and, and that, you know, that's just, it's the game. 1061 01:03:11,600 --> 01:03:13,840 That's the game. But what you're saying without 1062 01:03:13,920 --> 01:03:15,960 work, something is, is basically. 1063 01:03:16,320 --> 01:03:22,120 Let's see, I have it here. Yeah, it's basically it's this. 1064 01:03:23,520 --> 01:03:26,240 And this is the scary part because it it's always the 1065 01:03:26,240 --> 01:03:30,240 physical thing, right. So you just said knowing 1066 01:03:30,920 --> 01:03:35,840 knowing, knowing is owning. So there's this really nice. 1067 01:03:36,200 --> 01:03:40,320 This is a guy from Sweden. This is called knowing is 1068 01:03:40,680 --> 01:03:43,760 owning. And this is something you of 1069 01:03:43,760 --> 01:03:48,680 course discussed also with with some people on your podcast, the 1070 01:03:48,680 --> 01:03:52,200 famous people. So not the flaps like me, but if 1071 01:03:52,200 --> 01:03:56,640 you look like this thing, this thing, I'm just holding it on 1072 01:03:56,640 --> 01:03:58,720 the camera. Yeah, birth demo, it says. 1073 01:03:58,720 --> 01:04:02,720 Yeah, it's a demo. It has, it's not numbers, so 1074 01:04:02,720 --> 01:04:06,920 it's not, it's word, not word one, but it's actually, you can 1075 01:04:06,920 --> 01:04:11,640 see, I think you can see it's actually, you know, what we have 1076 01:04:11,640 --> 01:04:14,800 in the sky. So you can actually remember the 1077 01:04:14,800 --> 01:04:18,120 dots on this disk and that's the access to your Bitcoin. 1078 01:04:20,320 --> 01:04:23,600 Yeah, knowing is owning. It's in the physical reality. 1079 01:04:23,840 --> 01:04:28,440 People don't understand that this thing will last for 1000 1080 01:04:28,440 --> 01:04:33,760 years. If someone finds this and knows 1081 01:04:33,760 --> 01:04:38,000 this code, this distributed network of computers, wherever 1082 01:04:38,000 --> 01:04:44,280 they are at that moment, in 1000 years will have access to this 1083 01:04:44,480 --> 01:04:47,880 absolutely scarce monetary base that we build as a human 1084 01:04:47,880 --> 01:04:50,080 society. And it's all physical. 1085 01:04:50,520 --> 01:04:53,640 But this part is always lost because people still think that 1086 01:04:53,640 --> 01:04:55,600 Bitcoin is just some digital currency. 1087 01:04:55,600 --> 01:04:59,920 No, it's actually most tied to the real world as anything. 1088 01:05:00,600 --> 01:05:02,400 And that's why knowing is owning. 1089 01:05:02,400 --> 01:05:06,800 You can travel across the globe with something in your head and 1090 01:05:07,280 --> 01:05:12,440 you will be able to exchange it everywhere for whatever you 1091 01:05:12,440 --> 01:05:14,360 need. And that's just completely 1092 01:05:14,360 --> 01:05:19,200 insane. And this is so far out from the 1093 01:05:19,200 --> 01:05:21,480 mainstream, they don't see this yet. 1094 01:05:22,800 --> 01:05:26,080 And as you're saying, also with the millions of millions of 1095 01:05:26,080 --> 01:05:30,680 people, the 50 million people in in the US, this is exactly the 1096 01:05:30,680 --> 01:05:32,640 thing. Like of these 50 million people, 1097 01:05:32,960 --> 01:05:37,840 the majority holds something on an exchange and in a very small 1098 01:05:37,840 --> 01:05:41,520 part on this planet holds something physically. 1099 01:05:42,240 --> 01:05:46,600 And luckily that's growing because otherwise the shop 1100 01:05:46,600 --> 01:05:50,040 wouldn't grow. But this is the real shift, you 1101 01:05:50,040 --> 01:05:53,360 know, and it takes a lot of time before you get to that point 1102 01:05:53,520 --> 01:05:55,560 where you understand that knowing is owning. 1103 01:05:56,040 --> 01:06:01,880 Yeah, I love the distinction, what I learned about property 1104 01:06:01,880 --> 01:06:04,640 and ownership. So I would even take it further 1105 01:06:04,640 --> 01:06:09,640 because in in in this world, owning something doesn't 1106 01:06:09,640 --> 01:06:11,760 actually mean it's your property, right? 1107 01:06:11,760 --> 01:06:16,760 I think in, in Dutch, yeah, there are words for it. 1108 01:06:16,760 --> 01:06:19,280 I think in English, like ownership and property is 1109 01:06:19,280 --> 01:06:21,800 better, right? But like for me, ownership is 1110 01:06:21,800 --> 01:06:24,320 something that is kind of like abstracted, right? 1111 01:06:24,320 --> 01:06:28,080 Like you have a title deed to your house or some stocks, 1112 01:06:28,080 --> 01:06:29,920 right? Like Bert owns this stock and 1113 01:06:29,920 --> 01:06:33,080 there's, there's, there's two autographs and then you know, 1114 01:06:33,200 --> 01:06:37,480 okay, but it's not property. You don't have it, right? 1115 01:06:37,480 --> 01:06:40,040 You don't have it. You cannot like the, the 1116 01:06:40,040 --> 01:06:43,080 journalist I talked to, she's not into gold and not into 1117 01:06:43,080 --> 01:06:45,360 Bitcoin yet, but she's into stocks. 1118 01:06:45,360 --> 01:06:48,400 And then she asked me the question, what if, you know, I 1119 01:06:49,560 --> 01:06:52,200 don't know, like shit hits the fan and there's like a war and 1120 01:06:52,200 --> 01:06:54,000 you have to leave. I said, well, I leave with the 1121 01:06:54,000 --> 01:06:56,840 Bitcoin in my head and you're going to call your stock broker 1122 01:06:56,840 --> 01:07:01,080 and be like, well, you know, I want to sell my stock or take my 1123 01:07:01,080 --> 01:07:02,480 stock. Like what are you doing? 1124 01:07:02,800 --> 01:07:05,680 You know, the fact that you have to call someone to get what you 1125 01:07:05,680 --> 01:07:08,680 think you own means you don't own it, right? 1126 01:07:08,840 --> 01:07:12,680 And just just that, that, that difference between property 1127 01:07:12,680 --> 01:07:17,920 actually having it and owning its ownership, like on paper is 1128 01:07:17,920 --> 01:07:21,600 such a massively different thing. 1129 01:07:21,600 --> 01:07:25,840 But taking property of, you know, the monetary energy that 1130 01:07:25,840 --> 01:07:29,200 you gathered is also really scary. 1131 01:07:29,520 --> 01:07:34,000 I, I was talking to a friend who has no Bitcoin, but he's rich. 1132 01:07:34,320 --> 01:07:38,600 And he said to me, oh, but that if I have a million in Bitcoin, 1133 01:07:38,600 --> 01:07:40,600 I I'm the only one who's guarding this. 1134 01:07:40,600 --> 01:07:43,760 I said, yeah, it's like, no, that's very scary. 1135 01:07:44,240 --> 01:07:46,040 You know, I said, yes, that's true. 1136 01:07:46,680 --> 01:07:49,720 But you actually, it's, it's, it's your property that that 1137 01:07:49,720 --> 01:07:51,880 million now in the bank is not yours. 1138 01:07:51,920 --> 01:07:55,360 It's, it's, it's contractually not, not yours. 1139 01:07:55,720 --> 01:07:57,880 So you have to understand that too. 1140 01:07:57,880 --> 01:08:01,920 You're scared of something without understanding what what 1141 01:08:01,920 --> 01:08:03,520 you're currently participating in. 1142 01:08:03,520 --> 01:08:06,880 And I think you alluded to that earlier, like Bitcoin is just 1143 01:08:07,000 --> 01:08:09,720 another system. It's just another system that 1144 01:08:09,720 --> 01:08:13,680 you can participate in and you can still move to it freely and 1145 01:08:13,680 --> 01:08:16,359 totally conscious. And you can choose to adopt that 1146 01:08:16,359 --> 01:08:19,240 system versus the system that you're currently in. 1147 01:08:19,240 --> 01:08:21,520 You never chose to be in that. Yeah. 1148 01:08:21,640 --> 01:08:24,160 And that's also why you don't understand it, because no one 1149 01:08:24,160 --> 01:08:25,960 ever. Just what you're now mentioning 1150 01:08:25,960 --> 01:08:27,520 is actually also the scary part, right? 1151 01:08:27,520 --> 01:08:30,600 So because someone walks in here with a gun, you know, there was 1152 01:08:30,600 --> 01:08:33,319 another podcast guy in the Netherlands who had that I 1153 01:08:33,520 --> 01:08:35,399 walked in, you know, who take his Bitcoin. 1154 01:08:36,200 --> 01:08:39,920 The thing is, you can also properly protect it and 1155 01:08:39,920 --> 01:08:41,560 distribute it across the globe, right? 1156 01:08:41,560 --> 01:08:45,040 So you can, you can lay the keys around and you need multiple 1157 01:08:45,040 --> 01:08:46,600 keys to actually be able to access it. 1158 01:08:46,880 --> 01:08:49,120 And if you trust people, you have nice people in your 1159 01:08:49,120 --> 01:08:52,080 surroundings, you can actually distribute it among people. 1160 01:08:52,080 --> 01:08:55,240 Also, you can have a pop there, you know, like, and distribute 1161 01:08:55,240 --> 01:08:58,680 these keys. So the, the, the beautiful thing 1162 01:08:58,680 --> 01:09:02,000 is like, if you shoot someone, you cannot take it. 1163 01:09:03,720 --> 01:09:06,960 So that's wild. That's, that's just such an 1164 01:09:06,960 --> 01:09:09,520 insane thing. So this this physical thing, 1165 01:09:09,560 --> 01:09:13,720 yeah, you can find it that doesn't hold any value because 1166 01:09:13,720 --> 01:09:15,200 you need other things too, right? 1167 01:09:15,520 --> 01:09:20,560 So The thing is like you have the physical thing, but always a 1168 01:09:20,560 --> 01:09:23,920 little part is there like a passphrase or it's a multi sig, 1169 01:09:25,120 --> 01:09:30,200 you need more things. And that's almost always in the 1170 01:09:30,200 --> 01:09:36,520 minds of one or multiple people. And that's really insane because 1171 01:09:36,520 --> 01:09:41,080 all of a sudden this time saving technology, this monetary value 1172 01:09:41,080 --> 01:09:45,680 is actually kept within these people and it makes it very. 1173 01:09:45,760 --> 01:09:48,760 Far says you are the Bitcoin. Yeah, you are the Bitcoin. 1174 01:09:48,760 --> 01:09:51,960 Exactly. And that's just completely 1175 01:09:51,960 --> 01:09:53,880 insane. Like also we have like these 1176 01:09:53,880 --> 01:09:57,040 really tiny seeds, they're called tiny seeds in our web 1177 01:09:57,040 --> 01:09:59,840 shop and we sell them to people that travel a lot because 1178 01:09:59,840 --> 01:10:04,840 they're not detected in in the X-rays on the airports. 1179 01:10:05,040 --> 01:10:06,760 Oh wow. Yeah, so people can actually 1180 01:10:06,760 --> 01:10:08,960 travel with their seat and not remember every because it's 1181 01:10:08,960 --> 01:10:12,120 quite hard. So they put the the seat, you 1182 01:10:12,120 --> 01:10:15,320 know, they can saw it somewhere in there and it's super tiny. 1183 01:10:15,320 --> 01:10:18,840 So it cannot be detected easily. Like these kind of things people 1184 01:10:18,840 --> 01:10:22,480 think about and that people are really travel with this kind of 1185 01:10:23,080 --> 01:10:27,480 freedom money across the globe is is just fantastic. 1186 01:10:27,680 --> 01:10:31,120 And even if they would do something about the tiny seat, 1187 01:10:32,000 --> 01:10:34,280 then people would still be able to do it in their head, Right. 1188 01:10:34,280 --> 01:10:41,080 So I, I think this shift is still very far out from general 1189 01:10:41,080 --> 01:10:42,440 understanding. Yeah. 1190 01:10:42,720 --> 01:10:44,480 And as you're saying, it's scary. 1191 01:10:44,760 --> 01:10:48,400 It's scary if you don't know exactly how to do this stuff. 1192 01:10:49,040 --> 01:10:52,440 And luckily, there are a lot of people helping out on this 1193 01:10:52,440 --> 01:10:54,240 already. But you have to be. 1194 01:10:55,040 --> 01:10:56,880 Yeah, You have to be. Yeah. 1195 01:10:56,880 --> 01:11:00,400 Also a little bit wary because there are also of course 1196 01:11:00,400 --> 01:11:02,520 scammers in this. Yeah, yeah, I know. 1197 01:11:02,520 --> 01:11:05,000 But what I tried to point to, yes, I agree. 1198 01:11:05,000 --> 01:11:08,160 You need to learn about it. For him, it was only the 1199 01:11:08,160 --> 01:11:10,720 concept. Yeah, that already scared him, 1200 01:11:11,080 --> 01:11:12,880 right. And I like to have like those 1201 01:11:12,880 --> 01:11:15,400 conversations because then I'm like, OK, let's just 1202 01:11:15,400 --> 01:11:17,280 conceptually talk about this, right. 1203 01:11:17,280 --> 01:11:21,240 Like if you call the bank now and you want to get 100K of your 1204 01:11:21,240 --> 01:11:26,600 million out some girl or man who a woman or man who has a certain 1205 01:11:26,600 --> 01:11:29,960 job, you know, task list description, whatever, it's 1206 01:11:29,960 --> 01:11:32,480 going to be like, oh, 100K that's above this limit. 1207 01:11:32,480 --> 01:11:33,960 What do you want to do with it, Sir? 1208 01:11:35,200 --> 01:11:37,680 You know, like you're going to have a conversation with someone 1209 01:11:37,680 --> 01:11:42,320 who's just, you know, executing their job. 1210 01:11:42,920 --> 01:11:46,640 But they are they are standing in front of a door between you 1211 01:11:46,680 --> 01:11:49,640 and that what you think you well. 1212 01:11:49,880 --> 01:11:52,360 You won't get it. You won't get 100K out of bank. 1213 01:11:53,960 --> 01:11:55,480 And it's not to protect you, right? 1214 01:11:55,480 --> 01:11:58,600 And so I, I, I, I talked with him through this and I said, 1215 01:11:58,600 --> 01:12:01,640 well, you don't like, I don't care if you buy Bitcoin or not. 1216 01:12:01,640 --> 01:12:05,840 I'm just trying to help you get to the point where you start 1217 01:12:05,840 --> 01:12:10,160 thinking about how am I really in control of my life? 1218 01:12:10,160 --> 01:12:13,320 Am I really in control of the reward that I got for spending 1219 01:12:13,320 --> 01:12:17,080 my time and energy my most finite resource, you know? 1220 01:12:17,080 --> 01:12:21,920 And the answer is just no. And it's not a nice realization, 1221 01:12:21,920 --> 01:12:25,480 but it is the answer. And then once you understand 1222 01:12:25,480 --> 01:12:27,440 that that is the answer, you have a big choice. 1223 01:12:27,440 --> 01:12:31,920 You have a choice to ignore that and just, you know, continue 1224 01:12:31,920 --> 01:12:34,840 ignoring it. You know, like like the Matrix 1225 01:12:34,840 --> 01:12:39,160 red pill, blue pill type thing. Or you can be like, OK, well, if 1226 01:12:39,160 --> 01:12:42,320 it really works like that, what can I do about it, Right. 1227 01:12:42,360 --> 01:12:43,880 And, and that was the case for me. 1228 01:12:43,880 --> 01:12:46,000 And I, I shared that a lot already on this podcast. 1229 01:12:46,000 --> 01:12:48,880 But like, I was 30 and I worked at a bank and I had a mortgage 1230 01:12:48,880 --> 01:12:52,400 and I was already into Bitcoin. And then a colleague explained 1231 01:12:52,400 --> 01:12:55,280 to me why the money in the bank wasn't mine. 1232 01:12:55,280 --> 01:12:57,480 And I was like, what, what are you talking about? 1233 01:12:57,840 --> 01:13:00,320 And then after you explained it to me, I was like, I'm an idiot. 1234 01:13:00,760 --> 01:13:03,080 And that's how I felt. Like I, I felt like an idiot. 1235 01:13:03,080 --> 01:13:05,480 I'm participating in the system. I don't understand, like, what 1236 01:13:05,480 --> 01:13:08,720 am I doing? And like, for me, yeah, I don't 1237 01:13:08,720 --> 01:13:10,960 know, maybe I'm lucky that I'm wired that way, but I could not 1238 01:13:10,960 --> 01:13:14,640 accept that. I I couldn't accept that I I 1239 01:13:14,640 --> 01:13:16,680 didn't understand what I was participating in. 1240 01:13:16,680 --> 01:13:20,680 So that's kind of pushed me more to work, just more studying and, 1241 01:13:20,680 --> 01:13:26,400 and trying to get the information that got me to 1242 01:13:26,760 --> 01:13:29,920 actually form an opinion about what I was participating in. 1243 01:13:30,040 --> 01:13:32,520 I think, yeah. And this is the scary part, 1244 01:13:32,520 --> 01:13:37,400 right? Where people trust and we always 1245 01:13:37,400 --> 01:13:41,880 say don't trust verify. And then you have this trust 1246 01:13:42,080 --> 01:13:45,440 percentage that is carefully managed. 1247 01:13:45,840 --> 01:13:49,040 You know that How many people actually trust the banks at the 1248 01:13:49,040 --> 01:13:51,200 moment? Do we need to have a campaign 1249 01:13:51,200 --> 01:13:53,320 that people get trust in the banks again? 1250 01:13:53,320 --> 01:13:55,320 You know, like this is actually what's happening. 1251 01:13:55,320 --> 01:14:00,920 It's just insane. It will take time before people 1252 01:14:00,920 --> 01:14:02,760 wake up, but it will come at some point. 1253 01:14:02,960 --> 01:14:08,040 And then I'm just quoting the central bank, Christine. 1254 01:14:08,560 --> 01:14:13,120 So it will come. And that's also where everyone 1255 01:14:13,120 --> 01:14:16,960 is of course, scared off because as she once said, if there's an 1256 01:14:17,280 --> 01:14:24,400 exit, it will be used. So, but the difficulty is if you 1257 01:14:24,400 --> 01:14:28,280 don't allow your people to go through the exit, you will get a 1258 01:14:28,280 --> 01:14:32,240 lot of angry people and you will also get a very poor society for 1259 01:14:32,240 --> 01:14:36,840 it. So at some point, you know, this 1260 01:14:36,840 --> 01:14:43,400 is the decision that has to be made somewhere and I don't know 1261 01:14:43,400 --> 01:14:48,400 how fast that will come. Depends on hard how hard they 1262 01:14:48,400 --> 01:14:52,560 push, I think. But yeah, it's a fairpoint. 1263 01:14:52,560 --> 01:14:55,040 I don't know either, but that's why it's fun to talk about this. 1264 01:14:55,320 --> 01:14:57,280 Yeah, but. It's also not nice, right? 1265 01:14:57,280 --> 01:15:01,880 It you can all say, oh, it's very beautiful and I'm positive 1266 01:15:01,880 --> 01:15:05,160 about Bitcoin in the future. But the transitional period can 1267 01:15:05,200 --> 01:15:09,000 be very messy and it really depends on which location you 1268 01:15:09,000 --> 01:15:13,280 are in on this planet. And if it becomes messy, Yeah, 1269 01:15:13,280 --> 01:15:15,720 that's not. We don't want to be in a messy 1270 01:15:15,720 --> 01:15:20,000 situation where this transition goes very, very roughly, let's 1271 01:15:20,000 --> 01:15:24,040 say. Yeah, yeah, I agree. 1272 01:15:24,760 --> 01:15:26,400 It's, yeah, it's hard to predict. 1273 01:15:26,400 --> 01:15:29,640 I like what you said about, you know, that you want to stay and 1274 01:15:29,640 --> 01:15:32,400 do something here, but there's also people leaving. 1275 01:15:32,840 --> 01:15:36,840 You know, I once heard a guy, an American guy say like, yeah, 1276 01:15:36,840 --> 01:15:39,680 these people going to a Salvador, their pussies, you got 1277 01:15:39,680 --> 01:15:41,600 to stay here and fight the fight here. 1278 01:15:42,000 --> 01:15:45,920 And I think that is true too. But it's also true what you're 1279 01:15:45,920 --> 01:15:49,600 saying, like, yeah, do you? There is a breaking point, 1280 01:15:49,600 --> 01:15:52,000 right? Big questions, yeah, but there 1281 01:15:52,000 --> 01:15:53,720 is a breaking point. That's the difficult part. 1282 01:15:54,000 --> 01:15:56,160 But the question is indeed like now. 1283 01:15:56,160 --> 01:15:58,600 It was really nice. We had the Bitcoin standard. 1284 01:15:58,880 --> 01:16:03,280 It was like 80 books, 2 weeks. And that's the Dutch translation 1285 01:16:03,280 --> 01:16:05,920 I'm talking about. We are in the niche of the 1286 01:16:05,920 --> 01:16:07,800 niche. There's a couple million people 1287 01:16:07,800 --> 01:16:11,360 in this country. So it was sold out in two weeks. 1288 01:16:11,360 --> 01:16:14,440 And then the printer was not an ECB printer. 1289 01:16:14,440 --> 01:16:16,440 It couldn't keep up. And. 1290 01:16:17,320 --> 01:16:21,080 So it took a couple of weeks to refill and then today I shipped 1291 01:16:21,680 --> 01:16:25,400 again 16 pieces of the Dutch Bitcoin standard. 1292 01:16:25,960 --> 01:16:28,040 And you see that people are educating themselves. 1293 01:16:28,120 --> 01:16:31,280 And if you just think back of your own path, you know, you, 1294 01:16:31,600 --> 01:16:35,200 you see where some touch points were, were already there. 1295 01:16:35,200 --> 01:16:39,880 And for me, the Bitcoin standard was also a really nice insight 1296 01:16:40,000 --> 01:16:42,400 that I got. And the book was written only in 1297 01:16:42,400 --> 01:16:46,560 2018, I think. And the Dutch translation is 1298 01:16:46,560 --> 01:16:50,360 only from a couple of years ago. And some volunteers just 1299 01:16:50,400 --> 01:16:53,680 translated it. If you listen to the audiobook, 1300 01:16:53,680 --> 01:16:57,560 you hear me, which is actually really weird, right? 1301 01:16:57,560 --> 01:17:01,240 So just these volunteers and these guys that wanted to share 1302 01:17:01,240 --> 01:17:03,840 the message took this upon themselves. 1303 01:17:03,840 --> 01:17:07,080 And that's why this book is translated in Dutch with all the 1304 01:17:07,080 --> 01:17:10,760 other books combined. And now people start to actually 1305 01:17:11,520 --> 01:17:13,320 educate themselves through these books. 1306 01:17:13,960 --> 01:17:17,520 So it's nice that this became available, but it's all because 1307 01:17:17,520 --> 01:17:21,400 of these people in Bitcoin that that want to propagate this 1308 01:17:21,400 --> 01:17:23,400 message and educate. Yeah. 1309 01:17:23,440 --> 01:17:27,440 And this first part, I think this monetary part, that's where 1310 01:17:27,440 --> 01:17:29,760 first the first people will get in. 1311 01:17:29,760 --> 01:17:31,680 And it's always first some skin in the game. 1312 01:17:32,120 --> 01:17:35,160 And then after that, they start educating themselves. 1313 01:17:36,000 --> 01:17:39,840 And then to guide them to the next step is going to be the 1314 01:17:39,840 --> 01:17:44,880 most difficult part because a lot of people get lost on our 1315 01:17:44,880 --> 01:17:48,920 databases part let's. Other databases, that's true. 1316 01:17:49,800 --> 01:17:53,760 Yeah. So I I saw in in your Twitter or 1317 01:17:53,760 --> 01:17:59,320 X bio it says I'm visiting Earth as a Bitcoin engineer and I 1318 01:17:59,320 --> 01:18:02,400 wondered how did Bitcoin give you purpose in life? 1319 01:18:03,400 --> 01:18:08,240 Oh shit, yeah, yeah, I'm living the, the, the the road to 1320 01:18:08,480 --> 01:18:14,560 Bitcoin hyper bit organization, let's say, because I'm at the 1321 01:18:14,560 --> 01:18:17,680 forefront now. I feel all of a sudden while I'm 1322 01:18:17,760 --> 01:18:22,040 quite late in the industry, but yeah, having the role that I 1323 01:18:22,040 --> 01:18:27,600 have now in combination with the company just growing, just 1324 01:18:27,600 --> 01:18:31,000 helping more and more people with with home mining, but also 1325 01:18:31,000 --> 01:18:36,400 just mining in general on the educational part, we see a lot 1326 01:18:36,400 --> 01:18:41,640 of growth. It's really nice to to be in 1327 01:18:41,640 --> 01:18:50,760 that sense so early. So I, I hope, I hope to see that 1328 01:18:50,760 --> 01:18:55,680 the Netherlands educates itself rapidly enough. 1329 01:18:56,400 --> 01:19:04,680 So we and not just us too, but a lot of people with us want to 1330 01:19:04,680 --> 01:19:07,200 build from here. And I think there are a lot of 1331 01:19:07,200 --> 01:19:10,400 people, if you just see at the companies that are currently 1332 01:19:10,400 --> 01:19:14,560 there from the 1st of January when me car so the European 1333 01:19:14,560 --> 01:19:18,200 legislation comes into effect, all these companies will not be 1334 01:19:18,200 --> 01:19:21,320 based in Europe anymore because it's basically not possible 1335 01:19:21,320 --> 01:19:25,400 anymore. And this is the scary thing. 1336 01:19:27,560 --> 01:19:32,760 China copies US invents and Europe regulates. 1337 01:19:32,760 --> 01:19:36,160 That's basically how you currently see the planet. 1338 01:19:37,360 --> 01:19:42,320 That, that's something that I hope we can, we can put a brake 1339 01:19:42,320 --> 01:19:46,280 on and then it would be good for, for the Dutch people. 1340 01:19:47,240 --> 01:19:50,160 But it's going to be a real struggle. 1341 01:19:50,360 --> 01:19:56,520 I, I believe and my heart takes for Bitcoin and we'll see how 1342 01:19:56,520 --> 01:20:01,000 far we can stretch this in the Netherlands, But otherwise we'll 1343 01:20:01,000 --> 01:20:02,240 do it anywhere on the planet, right? 1344 01:20:03,840 --> 01:20:07,240 Of that I also wanted to ask you what does proof of work mean to 1345 01:20:07,240 --> 01:20:11,920 you? Yeah, you have to show the work. 1346 01:20:12,000 --> 01:20:17,120 So what you are doing, you didn't really know what to do. 1347 01:20:18,280 --> 01:20:21,480 So what did you do? You started to create podcasts. 1348 01:20:21,680 --> 01:20:24,560 Something. Yeah, and you just told me 1349 01:20:24,560 --> 01:20:26,240 before we went into this call, right? 1350 01:20:27,320 --> 01:20:31,360 Where's this heading? I don't know. 1351 01:20:31,560 --> 01:20:35,800 Forward, yeah, but you will keep on putting work in, right? 1352 01:20:36,200 --> 01:20:40,960 You keep on editing, inviting all these people put the proof 1353 01:20:40,960 --> 01:20:43,720 of work in. It's all about the physical 1354 01:20:43,720 --> 01:20:46,240 proof of work. You create physical proof of 1355 01:20:46,240 --> 01:20:49,800 work by interviewing people. I'm creating physical proof of 1356 01:20:49,800 --> 01:20:53,240 work by helping thousands of bitcoiners in the Netherlands to 1357 01:20:53,280 --> 01:20:56,920 actually get on the right path. At least that's what I'm trying 1358 01:20:56,920 --> 01:21:00,840 to do. And I think that's what proof of 1359 01:21:00,840 --> 01:21:04,640 work for me is. And apart from that, proof of 1360 01:21:04,640 --> 01:21:08,440 work is of course the protocol thing that we all name. 1361 01:21:08,600 --> 01:21:14,680 So not proof of stake. So not by force and by having a 1362 01:21:14,680 --> 01:21:17,440 big bag, being able to determine what happens. 1363 01:21:17,800 --> 01:21:21,560 Now you have to put work in to actually be a part of something. 1364 01:21:22,200 --> 01:21:24,080 And I think that's what we are showing both. 1365 01:21:25,000 --> 01:21:28,800 And I hope a lot of people join us in this proof of work way of 1366 01:21:28,800 --> 01:21:32,360 living. And as we always said in the 1367 01:21:32,360 --> 01:21:35,760 ports, there's 24 hours in the day and then we still have the 1368 01:21:35,760 --> 01:21:41,000 night to. Work nice so well what I what I 1369 01:21:41,000 --> 01:21:45,040 like about that is you know like you see you see Bitcoin is a 1370 01:21:45,040 --> 01:21:48,840 real community right like I, I think it was last week I had a 1371 01:21:48,840 --> 01:21:54,560 tweet like it's just find it so incredible that like I know 1372 01:21:54,560 --> 01:21:58,640 surgeons now and lawyers and real estate people and I don't 1373 01:21:58,640 --> 01:22:03,560 know people people from any background and any expertise 1374 01:22:03,560 --> 01:22:08,960 right and I think first time you and I ever talked I think you 1375 01:22:09,000 --> 01:22:13,760 ended with well if you're ever around the door is open and then 1376 01:22:13,760 --> 01:22:17,400 I I actually met someone else who said like, yeah, the doors 1377 01:22:17,400 --> 01:22:21,400 literally open at birthplace like I had coffee with his mom 1378 01:22:21,400 --> 01:22:25,240 or something you know yeah and I think I think that is so great 1379 01:22:25,240 --> 01:22:29,200 you know like that Bitcoin really fosters this this 1380 01:22:29,360 --> 01:22:34,520 community building and it's really it's really being 1381 01:22:34,520 --> 01:22:38,400 interested in other people and yeah I want to I just want to 1382 01:22:38,400 --> 01:22:41,240 ask you about that like why why do you think that is why why 1383 01:22:41,240 --> 01:22:44,680 does it why does it foster this community building so much? 1384 01:22:45,600 --> 01:22:54,160 What do you see bro? For me, what I make of it is 1385 01:22:54,160 --> 01:22:59,160 that I, although you and I are from different backgrounds, we, 1386 01:23:00,080 --> 01:23:04,680 we challenged our mind to eventually understand the this 1387 01:23:04,680 --> 01:23:09,080 thing that is Bitcoin and I think what it can bring to the 1388 01:23:09,080 --> 01:23:12,120 world as we just talked about for over an hour. 1389 01:23:14,680 --> 01:23:17,720 And I think that is what connects us, just the fact that 1390 01:23:17,720 --> 01:23:20,320 that, well, at least that's for me, that's what I see that like, 1391 01:23:20,320 --> 01:23:24,480 I don't have to understand fully where you come from or who you 1392 01:23:24,480 --> 01:23:28,080 are or your upbringing or beliefs or all these things. 1393 01:23:28,560 --> 01:23:32,280 Like, I know you did the work to understand this and again, 1394 01:23:32,280 --> 01:23:34,480 challenge your mind just the same as I did. 1395 01:23:34,480 --> 01:23:38,600 And that is a lot of work. And, and so I think there's like 1396 01:23:38,680 --> 01:23:43,480 a mutual understanding and respect for that, for, for doing 1397 01:23:43,480 --> 01:23:45,720 that. And I think that is what 1398 01:23:45,720 --> 01:23:49,760 connects people in, in Bitcoin so, so easily. 1399 01:23:49,760 --> 01:23:53,040 And, and, and we all feel inclined to contribute something 1400 01:23:53,320 --> 01:23:57,920 in some way, even if it's just randomly talking for an hour. 1401 01:23:57,920 --> 01:24:04,080 Like I, I, I reached out to you a few few months back and you 1402 01:24:04,080 --> 01:24:05,960 were like, yeah, sure. And I don't, I don't know, 1403 01:24:06,280 --> 01:24:08,600 something like that. I, I, I don't know exactly. 1404 01:24:08,600 --> 01:24:11,000 So I was interested this it's curious. 1405 01:24:11,200 --> 01:24:15,160 For me, it's curious, like we are at the stage where it's 1406 01:24:15,160 --> 01:24:19,840 still the curious minds that I get. 1407 01:24:19,840 --> 01:24:23,440 I get meals daily. So can, can we meet? 1408 01:24:24,320 --> 01:24:28,320 Can I work at your company? Can we have a talk? 1409 01:24:28,480 --> 01:24:31,440 You know? And of course I used to do this 1410 01:24:32,560 --> 01:24:36,040 quite often in the past few years, but at the moment I just, 1411 01:24:36,160 --> 01:24:38,520 I can't do it anymore. Like I get these kind of meals 1412 01:24:38,520 --> 01:24:42,000 daily, which warms my heart, but I, I can't do it anymore. 1413 01:24:42,000 --> 01:24:46,520 So the, the, the amazing thing is that is the curious, like, 1414 01:24:47,280 --> 01:24:51,120 which people would actually send an e-mail and say, oh, I'm 1415 01:24:51,120 --> 01:24:54,160 really interested to learn more. Can you help me out? 1416 01:24:54,480 --> 01:24:57,480 And I, I did this, you know, I, I did this with, with, with, 1417 01:24:57,680 --> 01:25:01,280 with I think far over 100 people already. 1418 01:25:01,720 --> 01:25:05,880 And I, I tried to guide everyone on the way, but now we do it 1419 01:25:05,880 --> 01:25:08,760 more digitally, right? So we did a workshop just before 1420 01:25:08,760 --> 01:25:11,840 Bitcoin Arnem and that's also recorded. 1421 01:25:11,840 --> 01:25:15,040 So we will launch it on the website soon and on the YouTube 1422 01:25:15,040 --> 01:25:20,000 and of course on Master also. And there were, I was astonished 1423 01:25:20,000 --> 01:25:26,640 because I organized the workshop and I rented this little place 1424 01:25:26,640 --> 01:25:30,520 and it costed me more than €400 and I was expecting maybe 10 1425 01:25:30,520 --> 01:25:32,200 people for the workshop. It was the day before the 1426 01:25:32,200 --> 01:25:33,880 conference. And let's see, you know, who 1427 01:25:33,880 --> 01:25:37,640 wants to go for a workshop? And I asked €21.00 because I 1428 01:25:37,640 --> 01:25:40,720 wanted to at least cover a bit of the cost of the €400.00 of 1429 01:25:40,720 --> 01:25:43,760 the rental. And and then it went up and up. 1430 01:25:43,760 --> 01:25:46,760 And then at some point we were at 30 people that were going to 1431 01:25:46,760 --> 01:25:48,360 attend. And I was like, yeah, most of 1432 01:25:48,360 --> 01:25:50,280 the time half of the people don't attend, so it will be 1433 01:25:50,280 --> 01:25:51,520 fine. But it was really like more 1434 01:25:51,520 --> 01:25:54,640 people want to attend. So we had to change the venue to 1435 01:25:54,640 --> 01:25:58,320 a larger venue, rented the place for over €700. 1436 01:25:58,400 --> 01:26:01,400 And then you still hope that it gets full enough. 1437 01:26:01,400 --> 01:26:06,240 And then I was standing there and there were more than 50 1438 01:26:06,240 --> 01:26:10,280 people and. Very cool. 40 bill paid. 1439 01:26:11,160 --> 01:26:16,160 So I was, I was out of the cost, but it was amazing, right? 1440 01:26:16,280 --> 01:26:21,760 So there's a community here that wants to learn in depth because 1441 01:26:21,760 --> 01:26:23,720 who the hell goes to a mining workshop, right? 1442 01:26:24,000 --> 01:26:28,800 And and it's it's the curious that are now learning and 1443 01:26:28,800 --> 01:26:30,880 everyone wants to help each other out. 1444 01:26:30,960 --> 01:26:34,560 We've seen the last year, we've seen the Dutch mining community 1445 01:26:34,560 --> 01:26:38,640 grow to hundreds of people and everyone is using their excess 1446 01:26:38,640 --> 01:26:40,800 of solar and heating their homes. 1447 01:26:40,800 --> 01:26:44,760 And it's happening. And that that's what gives me in 1448 01:26:44,760 --> 01:26:49,000 that sense, the shivers that I'm really happy that we got so many 1449 01:26:49,000 --> 01:26:52,280 people to bring the bank home. And that's where it's all about. 1450 01:26:52,280 --> 01:26:55,960 In the end, you know, we take back responsibility and we will 1451 01:26:55,960 --> 01:26:58,560 be our own bank and that's where we're going. 1452 01:27:00,840 --> 01:27:04,720 So with regards to mining, what's, you know, there's 1453 01:27:04,720 --> 01:27:08,040 obviously a lot of misconceptions and actually 1454 01:27:08,040 --> 01:27:12,000 today I I saw a tweet by I don't know her name, but she's a 1455 01:27:12,040 --> 01:27:15,560 pretty famous scientist too. Actually, she had a video before 1456 01:27:15,560 --> 01:27:18,880 about how bad mining was. Now she was like, oh, it's way 1457 01:27:18,880 --> 01:27:22,320 more interesting, I think. Yeah, yeah, yeah, she makes 1458 01:27:22,640 --> 01:27:25,880 pretty cool YouTube videos. Yes, I I forgot her name. 1459 01:27:25,880 --> 01:27:29,840 But then Daniel Batten replied, like, Oh, you still use old 1460 01:27:29,840 --> 01:27:32,120 information, this is new information, etcetera. 1461 01:27:32,120 --> 01:27:35,640 Very cool. So I, I think I, I like, I like 1462 01:27:35,640 --> 01:27:41,640 that aspect too, because we know way more than most established 1463 01:27:41,640 --> 01:27:45,840 people that have like a certain authority, right or, or 1464 01:27:45,840 --> 01:27:47,640 audience. So I, I love, I love to see 1465 01:27:47,640 --> 01:27:49,680 that. But I wanted to ask you because 1466 01:27:49,680 --> 01:27:52,520 you are obviously at the forefront of mining as well. 1467 01:27:52,520 --> 01:27:55,800 Like what are what are still the biggest misconceptions you see 1468 01:27:55,800 --> 01:27:59,080 about Bitcoin mining and how do you how do you address? 1469 01:27:59,080 --> 01:28:01,760 Them, yeah, people still see there's a waste of electricity, 1470 01:28:01,760 --> 01:28:05,800 right, Of energy It's but they haven't seen anything yet. 1471 01:28:06,240 --> 01:28:09,520 And The thing is like, even as I said that I want to take 1472 01:28:09,520 --> 01:28:13,440 Parliament towards a mining location and I want to show 1473 01:28:13,440 --> 01:28:16,360 them, you know what we're actually doing. 1474 01:28:16,680 --> 01:28:20,600 So balancing the grid. So Bitcoin mining is just paying 1475 01:28:20,600 --> 01:28:23,800 for electricity. We pay for electricity that we 1476 01:28:23,800 --> 01:28:28,240 want to consume at a very low, it has to be an insanely low 1477 01:28:28,240 --> 01:28:30,080 price, right? Because otherwise you cannot 1478 01:28:30,080 --> 01:28:32,240 mine. So it's waste. 1479 01:28:32,520 --> 01:28:35,040 It's it's electricity that otherwise would have been 1480 01:28:35,080 --> 01:28:37,440 wasted. So the projects that I'm working 1481 01:28:37,440 --> 01:28:41,720 on is just, you have a huge factory, they have the factories 1482 01:28:41,720 --> 01:28:45,960 full of solar panels. Most of the time they cannot put 1483 01:28:46,120 --> 01:28:49,640 any of the excess electricity back on the grid within the 1484 01:28:49,640 --> 01:28:50,840 factory. They need heat. 1485 01:28:51,160 --> 01:28:55,120 So we engineer now a heat buffer, we put a mining location 1486 01:28:55,120 --> 01:28:58,400 there, we push the mining the heat into a heat buffer. 1487 01:28:58,400 --> 01:29:00,960 And then throughout the week, when they actually the factory 1488 01:29:00,960 --> 01:29:03,200 is working, we can use this heat into the process. 1489 01:29:04,000 --> 01:29:07,920 And then next to that, because you, you create a base load, you 1490 01:29:07,920 --> 01:29:11,200 can basically take full time electricity from the grid. 1491 01:29:11,200 --> 01:29:15,800 And we just drop the mining when there's excess, you know, sorry, 1492 01:29:15,800 --> 01:29:17,240 when there's a shortage on the grid. 1493 01:29:17,520 --> 01:29:20,560 So a couple of hours a day, when the grid needs to be balanced, 1494 01:29:20,560 --> 01:29:23,360 we just drop the electricity from the mining. 1495 01:29:23,840 --> 01:29:25,720 We don't need the heat constantly anyway. 1496 01:29:26,160 --> 01:29:30,320 And then we actually ensure that this grid stays balanced. 1497 01:29:30,680 --> 01:29:33,920 And with that, we lower the cost of the grid. 1498 01:29:34,120 --> 01:29:37,320 So the grid providers would be happy with this. 1499 01:29:38,280 --> 01:29:41,320 We supply heat and we actually use all this access. 1500 01:29:41,320 --> 01:29:44,000 And this is the projects that we're all working on. 1501 01:29:44,000 --> 01:29:47,360 A lot of these projects are already there with greenhouses, 1502 01:29:47,880 --> 01:29:49,240 but we don't show them in public. 1503 01:29:49,240 --> 01:29:52,040 They're huge. So they're 10 MW plus they're 1504 01:29:52,040 --> 01:29:53,640 already running in the Netherlands. 1505 01:29:53,960 --> 01:29:57,320 But we can't show them because we don't want any pictures or 1506 01:29:57,320 --> 01:30:02,680 videos anywhere because they will pick a trailer up and, you 1507 01:30:02,680 --> 01:30:07,880 know, it's millions of EUR. So risk wise it's relatively 1508 01:30:07,880 --> 01:30:11,040 high. Plus, we don't really, yeah, 1509 01:30:11,040 --> 01:30:14,760 want people on this location, you know, like, we don't want to 1510 01:30:14,760 --> 01:30:18,920 show this, but it's there. And I think the politicians need 1511 01:30:18,920 --> 01:30:22,320 to know that this is there, and that's why we need to show it. 1512 01:30:22,320 --> 01:30:24,240 And then again, it's proof of work. 1513 01:30:24,480 --> 01:30:26,440 You've seen it, You've touched it. 1514 01:30:26,840 --> 01:30:29,000 And that's where we're going. And the new projects that are 1515 01:30:29,000 --> 01:30:33,680 going to come online in the next years across the globe will all 1516 01:30:33,680 --> 01:30:36,800 be based on this heat and excess. 1517 01:30:37,560 --> 01:30:41,840 And we will have such a positive impact everywhere around the 1518 01:30:41,840 --> 01:30:44,760 globe. And with excess, I also mean 1519 01:30:44,760 --> 01:30:47,920 like adamatic mitigation, the things we already all know. 1520 01:30:48,840 --> 01:30:52,120 But at some point it will spread among mainstream. 1521 01:30:52,520 --> 01:30:55,760 It will be seen at some point. Yeah, yeah. 1522 01:30:55,760 --> 01:30:59,320 I find it fascinating that people think more energy use in 1523 01:30:59,320 --> 01:31:07,400 general is bad, which you know when they say like all Bitcoin 1524 01:31:07,400 --> 01:31:10,240 mining uses in this video of this German lady, it's like the 1525 01:31:10,240 --> 01:31:15,480 equivalent of Indonesia uses. I think she has as an example. 1526 01:31:17,120 --> 01:31:21,000 But that doesn't mean that it it can be used for something else. 1527 01:31:21,000 --> 01:31:22,760 I think that's the entire point, right? 1528 01:31:22,760 --> 01:31:25,520 Like the fact that you say it's waste energy because the 1529 01:31:25,520 --> 01:31:31,200 incentive for a minor is to find the lowest cost electric energy 1530 01:31:31,200 --> 01:31:37,000 that that's not energy that is newly created by a newly bought 1531 01:31:37,000 --> 01:31:40,440 energy source. May, yeah, maybe add some 1532 01:31:40,560 --> 01:31:44,440 waterfall in the middle of Kenya or you know. 1533 01:31:45,600 --> 01:31:47,360 Yeah, but this is what gritless is doing, right? 1534 01:31:47,680 --> 01:31:49,360 Yeah, exactly, exactly what you see. 1535 01:31:49,360 --> 01:31:51,280 But in essence, it is wasted energy. 1536 01:31:51,280 --> 01:31:54,600 It is because. Because it cannot be harvested 1537 01:31:55,880 --> 01:31:59,360 and you know at that, at that location because it's not 1538 01:31:59,360 --> 01:32:02,000 economically viable. I would add to the list that 1539 01:32:02,000 --> 01:32:05,200 that you mentioned is also because you mined the Bitcoin, 1540 01:32:06,040 --> 01:32:09,400 you do not only, you know, do these things that you said, but 1541 01:32:09,400 --> 01:32:11,360 you make it economically viable, right? 1542 01:32:11,360 --> 01:32:16,120 You can actually have more than a 100% return on your investment 1543 01:32:16,160 --> 01:32:21,120 in in the in the energy. But just just look specifically 1544 01:32:21,120 --> 01:32:24,000 at the service. Every time we have a little bit 1545 01:32:24,000 --> 01:32:28,880 of wind, a little bit of sun, we turn off gigawatts of yeah, of 1546 01:32:28,880 --> 01:32:30,680 access. Gigawatts are being turned off. 1547 01:32:31,480 --> 01:32:35,560 And The thing is, why is it in the Netherlands not being done 1548 01:32:35,560 --> 01:32:40,720 with Bitcoin mining is because everyone that turns off is paid 1549 01:32:41,120 --> 01:32:44,840 a lot, you know, still. And the thing that we do? 1550 01:32:44,920 --> 01:32:47,400 Energy. Companies then to do that or. 1551 01:32:47,440 --> 01:32:50,080 Yeah, it's subsidized. So you just turn off and you're 1552 01:32:50,080 --> 01:32:53,120 being compensated. So in the end, all the Dutch 1553 01:32:53,120 --> 01:32:57,960 people pay the bill, right? Everyone pays this bill and then 1554 01:32:57,960 --> 01:33:00,520 just. For not using the windmills and 1555 01:33:00,520 --> 01:33:02,840 solar farms that have. This and then shift their view 1556 01:33:02,840 --> 01:33:06,480 towards Texas where they have an even more extreme build out, the 1557 01:33:06,480 --> 01:33:09,760 build out we are going to have in the Netherlands very soon, 1558 01:33:10,600 --> 01:33:12,200 but they don't have these incentives. 1559 01:33:12,360 --> 01:33:16,240 So they have gigawatts and gigawatts of mining there 1560 01:33:16,640 --> 01:33:21,200 because they want to actually use this electricity and they 1561 01:33:21,200 --> 01:33:24,520 want a base load that can shut off directly to actually balance 1562 01:33:24,520 --> 01:33:28,000 the grid. So if we wouldn't be in an over 1563 01:33:28,000 --> 01:33:31,640 subsidized society here, we would have had a lot more 1564 01:33:31,640 --> 01:33:34,200 Bitcoin mining already. And this is something that 1565 01:33:34,200 --> 01:33:38,440 people don't even grasp yet. But luckily you know, even 1566 01:33:38,440 --> 01:33:42,600 because on the level at Tenet even they are getting educated 1567 01:33:42,600 --> 01:33:45,040 and we will get there, but it will take time. 1568 01:33:45,480 --> 01:33:52,240 Because the, the government or the OR the the net, the company 1569 01:33:52,240 --> 01:33:56,440 that that takes care of the of the energy net, right? 1570 01:33:56,640 --> 01:34:00,880 Yeah, they can earn money instead of paying money, right. 1571 01:34:00,880 --> 01:34:04,280 Or the government can can earn money and the people can pay 1572 01:34:04,480 --> 01:34:08,880 less for their energy, right. I, I talked to Des B. 1573 01:34:08,960 --> 01:34:10,880 Do you know him? Yeah, Des B and he. 1574 01:34:11,040 --> 01:34:13,400 Met him in. The era, Yeah, very cool. 1575 01:34:13,400 --> 01:34:19,040 Yeah, he told me. I have to say it correctly. 1576 01:34:19,080 --> 01:34:23,800 Of all, like the renewable energy sources, only 1/3 of the 1577 01:34:24,640 --> 01:34:29,640 created energy gets sold. But it does not get sold. 1578 01:34:29,840 --> 01:34:32,400 It gets sold. You pay, you pay three times as 1579 01:34:32,400 --> 01:34:36,360 much for what it's actually worth because only one third can 1580 01:34:36,360 --> 01:34:40,360 actually be used. You know, and it's such a basic 1581 01:34:40,360 --> 01:34:43,600 business case because if you can sell 100% of the energy, then 1582 01:34:43,600 --> 01:34:48,160 you pay the regular price as a consumer of of the energy, 1583 01:34:48,280 --> 01:34:50,360 right? You and me just to sit the 1584 01:34:50,360 --> 01:34:54,960 citizens, right and and the person who owns the the energy 1585 01:34:54,960 --> 01:35:00,000 source gets actually paid for the energy day to get created 1586 01:35:00,000 --> 01:35:03,360 and and even more, right, if they mine Bitcoin because they 1587 01:35:03,360 --> 01:35:06,360 could sell, sell the Bitcoin as well if it's appreciates the 1588 01:35:06,360 --> 01:35:08,400 price. So you get, you can get over 1589 01:35:08,400 --> 01:35:11,760 100% return on, on any investment in a renewable energy 1590 01:35:11,760 --> 01:35:16,080 source, which is just again, so, so logical, right? 1591 01:35:16,080 --> 01:35:20,480 But it goes so much against the current landscape of, you know, 1592 01:35:20,920 --> 01:35:23,840 how it's managed. I think that's also what. 1593 01:35:23,840 --> 01:35:27,280 You yeah, but that's why Bitcoin mining is moving upstream, you 1594 01:35:27,280 --> 01:35:29,800 know, closer to where the generation is. 1595 01:35:30,200 --> 01:35:33,680 So what we will see is also when batteries come into effect, OK, 1596 01:35:34,040 --> 01:35:38,320 if we have batteries and let's say a more micro grid level, you 1597 01:35:38,320 --> 01:35:41,480 know, a small grid where you have a lot of access because you 1598 01:35:41,480 --> 01:35:47,320 need to have a worst case generation capacity that there 1599 01:35:47,320 --> 01:35:49,720 will be a lot of access even with the batteries in place. 1600 01:35:49,960 --> 01:35:52,680 And you actually want to fully utilize your entire setup. 1601 01:35:53,040 --> 01:35:56,320 So you will plug in some mining there because you want this base 1602 01:35:56,320 --> 01:35:59,600 load that just drops directly when you have a shortage. 1603 01:35:59,960 --> 01:36:04,400 And the shortage is just a small moment in time throughout the 1604 01:36:04,400 --> 01:36:06,720 year. So there's always capacity for 1605 01:36:06,720 --> 01:36:10,120 this base load, but that's just on the energy level that people 1606 01:36:10,400 --> 01:36:14,440 are still not grasping I think. And we just keep on searching 1607 01:36:14,440 --> 01:36:18,160 for the optimal locations. And I think now we are still 1608 01:36:18,160 --> 01:36:22,440 very early. So there are still margins on 1609 01:36:22,440 --> 01:36:26,840 Bitcoin mining, but I think they will deteriorate in the future 1610 01:36:28,040 --> 01:36:31,680 in Bitcoin. In Bitcoin they will. 1611 01:36:31,680 --> 01:36:35,320 But yeah, of course in Fiat terms it still looks good, 1612 01:36:35,320 --> 01:36:38,440 right. So that's what we are currently 1613 01:36:38,800 --> 01:36:41,080 discussing. I have like a graduation student 1614 01:36:42,000 --> 01:36:44,200 that is looking at it in the build environment. 1615 01:36:44,200 --> 01:36:48,640 So we have a case at the elderly home where instead of changing 1616 01:36:48,640 --> 01:36:52,440 natural gas for natural gas, we would put a small Bitcoin mining 1617 01:36:52,440 --> 01:36:55,360 installation there because it needs high temperature, which we 1618 01:36:55,360 --> 01:36:58,840 can do with Bitcoin mining. So we would electrify a part of 1619 01:36:58,840 --> 01:37:01,840 the natural gas. And then what does this look 1620 01:37:01,840 --> 01:37:04,840 like cost wise? And then you just see this curve 1621 01:37:04,840 --> 01:37:08,160 that he made like in a low, mid or a high expectation of the 1622 01:37:08,160 --> 01:37:12,200 Bitcoin value, but directly exchanging the Bitcoin for Fiat. 1623 01:37:12,680 --> 01:37:16,080 And then you just see the first years, it's the best solution is 1624 01:37:16,080 --> 01:37:18,160 the best solution. But then after a couple of 1625 01:37:18,160 --> 01:37:22,000 years, of course, a different solution is better if you just 1626 01:37:22,000 --> 01:37:24,840 keep on selling directly. But then the question is like, 1627 01:37:24,960 --> 01:37:31,480 will you sell your Bitcoin for or will you buy EUR directly for 1628 01:37:31,480 --> 01:37:35,080 your Bitcoin? If that's not the case and you 1629 01:37:35,080 --> 01:37:38,400 make then an estimate at the point where you do it, where you 1630 01:37:38,400 --> 01:37:43,680 might need it or you don't, yeah, then it's it's a business 1631 01:37:43,680 --> 01:37:47,680 case that's extremely solid. But it always comes back to do 1632 01:37:47,680 --> 01:37:51,360 you believe in Bitcoin? And like all the installations I 1633 01:37:51,360 --> 01:37:56,120 have built, and there are quite a few now, it's always this core 1634 01:37:56,160 --> 01:37:58,560 question, do you believe in Bitcoin? 1635 01:37:59,000 --> 01:38:02,800 If you don't believe in Bitcoin at all, don't step in. 1636 01:38:03,120 --> 01:38:07,800 It's I, I won't even touch the project like it's, I don't want 1637 01:38:07,800 --> 01:38:11,920 to be near it because it's not about the fee of denominated 1638 01:38:11,920 --> 01:38:13,640 value. You need to see a future for 1639 01:38:13,640 --> 01:38:16,040 Bitcoin. Otherwise it doesn't make any 1640 01:38:16,040 --> 01:38:19,720 sense at all. And I think that that's often 1641 01:38:19,720 --> 01:38:22,480 lost. You know that most people are in 1642 01:38:22,480 --> 01:38:27,600 this for, for EUR, but the people I've I've been with and 1643 01:38:27,600 --> 01:38:30,920 that they understand Bitcoin and they know where this is going 1644 01:38:31,320 --> 01:38:34,560 and that's where they invested in and that's a lot of families 1645 01:38:34,560 --> 01:38:36,520 actually. So, and I'm happy to see that 1646 01:38:36,520 --> 01:38:39,000 because the next generation will only be stronger in this. 1647 01:38:39,560 --> 01:38:43,200 Yeah, I love that love, love that you're sharing that I I 1648 01:38:43,200 --> 01:38:46,320 personally don't have a lot of insights about, you know, the 1649 01:38:46,320 --> 01:38:50,120 mining industry. So it's I love that you're 1650 01:38:50,120 --> 01:38:52,160 sharing that. I think this is again, 1651 01:38:52,160 --> 01:38:54,880 something, you know, like another dimension of Bitcoin 1652 01:38:54,880 --> 01:38:59,120 that you that, that is a rabbit hole by by itself, you know, and 1653 01:39:00,440 --> 01:39:03,800 yeah, in general that's just fascinating that you can have 1654 01:39:03,800 --> 01:39:05,880 like all these, all these different dimensions, but 1655 01:39:05,880 --> 01:39:08,840 especially the mining part. I'm super interested to see 1656 01:39:09,360 --> 01:39:12,360 where that's going to go. I I wanted to ask you two more 1657 01:39:12,360 --> 01:39:15,560 questions because I see it's pretty, it's pretty late. 1658 01:39:15,560 --> 01:39:17,000 We just, we just started talking. 1659 01:39:17,040 --> 01:39:21,320 So I love, I love that. I wanted to ask you about self 1660 01:39:21,320 --> 01:39:24,400 custody setups. Like you have so many wallets 1661 01:39:24,400 --> 01:39:28,200 and you help people out. Like what are like the most 1662 01:39:28,200 --> 01:39:32,240 basic recommendations for anyone we. 1663 01:39:32,280 --> 01:39:33,840 Actually don't have that many wallets. 1664 01:39:33,880 --> 01:39:36,240 So we made a very strict selection. 1665 01:39:36,240 --> 01:39:40,000 So the thing was when we started with the mining, all these 1666 01:39:40,000 --> 01:39:42,120 families of course also needed to store a Bitcoin. 1667 01:39:42,120 --> 01:39:45,680 So they ask you, OK, how do I store my Bitcoin? 1668 01:39:46,240 --> 01:39:49,520 And there's a thousand options, as everyone knows. 1669 01:39:49,520 --> 01:39:53,520 And then the question is what is the optimal solution for which 1670 01:39:53,520 --> 01:39:55,040 family? And I think that's different at 1671 01:39:55,040 --> 01:40:01,080 a different point in time and also different for people. 1672 01:40:01,080 --> 01:40:03,360 So we made a very simple selection. 1673 01:40:03,360 --> 01:40:06,440 We wanted the code to be open source so we could actually 1674 01:40:06,440 --> 01:40:11,760 check what is running on the device and preferably also that 1675 01:40:11,760 --> 01:40:16,440 it's open, what's in the device, you know, so, and that's the 1676 01:40:16,440 --> 01:40:20,440 case and what we have now. So it's open source, fully open 1677 01:40:20,440 --> 01:40:22,840 source, both software and hardware. 1678 01:40:23,480 --> 01:40:28,000 Then we have. Air gapped, so we don't want any 1679 01:40:28,000 --> 01:40:32,600 physical connection with the Internet because the device 1680 01:40:32,600 --> 01:40:36,640 generates the code and as we were saying on steal or it's 1681 01:40:36,640 --> 01:40:39,960 physical and we want it not to touch the Internet at all in any 1682 01:40:39,960 --> 01:40:41,920 way. So it has to be air gapped. 1683 01:40:41,920 --> 01:40:46,520 That means that there's an air between the connection. 1684 01:40:46,520 --> 01:40:50,120 So that means that it actually communicates via a camera. 1685 01:40:50,400 --> 01:40:54,600 So it shows a QR and it scans a QR. 1686 01:40:54,840 --> 01:40:58,160 So it's an air gap device. And then we wanted it to be 1687 01:40:58,160 --> 01:41:02,640 Bitcoin only because in the past I helped people and at some 1688 01:41:02,640 --> 01:41:07,720 point they were in some kind of going with a dog and lost all 1689 01:41:07,720 --> 01:41:12,720 their money. So I don't want it to be related 1690 01:41:12,720 --> 01:41:15,360 to any other coin. But next to that, it's also an 1691 01:41:15,360 --> 01:41:19,240 attack factor because if you have other coins in the device, 1692 01:41:20,000 --> 01:41:23,000 it's an additional risk. And then only three device, 1693 01:41:23,720 --> 01:41:27,160 three devices were possible. So yeah, if you look behind me, 1694 01:41:27,280 --> 01:41:31,240 it's block stream Jade. It's a foundation passport. 1695 01:41:31,440 --> 01:41:34,720 That's like the foundation passport is the most expensive, 1696 01:41:34,720 --> 01:41:38,560 but the most easy also. And then you have the block 1697 01:41:38,560 --> 01:41:43,200 stream Jade, which is the cheapest mass produced, but very 1698 01:41:43,200 --> 01:41:45,680 great device. And then we have the seat 1699 01:41:45,680 --> 01:41:52,160 signer, which we produce with a group of people in the aluminium 1700 01:41:52,800 --> 01:41:55,200 casing, but you can just build it yourself. 1701 01:41:55,720 --> 01:41:59,200 So that's an option you have. You can just download the part 1702 01:41:59,200 --> 01:42:02,640 list, but we assemble it into a proper device because a lot of 1703 01:42:02,640 --> 01:42:05,520 people want this proper device and it's quite difficult to 1704 01:42:06,040 --> 01:42:10,480 build it in the aluminium frame. So that's the three options that 1705 01:42:10,480 --> 01:42:13,400 we currently have. And there's another option going 1706 01:42:13,400 --> 01:42:16,880 to come really beautifully made, but that's for later. 1707 01:42:18,280 --> 01:42:21,760 But but these are the three we currently do and what we see, we 1708 01:42:21,760 --> 01:42:24,360 sold hundreds and hundreds of jades. 1709 01:42:24,840 --> 01:42:29,600 So it's a mass product. It's cheap, but we also sold 1710 01:42:29,600 --> 01:42:35,200 quite a few foundation passports and that's actually where a lot 1711 01:42:35,200 --> 01:42:38,920 of people are really happy with because it's an easy setup. 1712 01:42:39,160 --> 01:42:41,840 I think that's something that I would advise a lot of people. 1713 01:42:42,440 --> 01:42:47,080 I don't know if you have any I. Love by Foundation Passport yes, 1714 01:42:47,200 --> 01:42:52,760 yeah, I I think, I think. And I had Zach, a CEO, on I 1715 01:42:52,760 --> 01:42:54,800 don't know which episode number. OK, Yeah. 1716 01:42:54,920 --> 01:42:57,160 Check that out. But I I love his vision. 1717 01:42:57,600 --> 01:43:00,720 This is the Apple of Bitcoin. Yeah, yeah. 1718 01:43:00,720 --> 01:43:03,600 He has actually also once had a call with him and he has all 1719 01:43:03,600 --> 01:43:06,920 these pictures of the commercial of Apple behind him. 1720 01:43:07,720 --> 01:43:09,320 Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. So. 1721 01:43:09,600 --> 01:43:11,280 Cool. And then the seed signer. 1722 01:43:11,280 --> 01:43:15,520 Yeah, of course there are some things there that that people 1723 01:43:16,280 --> 01:43:18,960 might find difficult because it's a stateless device. 1724 01:43:18,960 --> 01:43:22,760 That means that the seed is not kept in the device itself. 1725 01:43:23,600 --> 01:43:28,760 And if you don't properly back up and know what you're doing, 1726 01:43:29,560 --> 01:43:31,960 you don't want to go there, you know, like you really need to 1727 01:43:31,960 --> 01:43:35,600 know what you're doing. So the first steps in general, 1728 01:43:35,600 --> 01:43:40,600 you know, are either Passport or Jade, not the seed signer. 1729 01:43:40,600 --> 01:43:42,960 So it's more for the bitcoiners in that sense. 1730 01:43:43,480 --> 01:43:47,240 And then the nice thing is the thing we sold most are actually, 1731 01:43:48,760 --> 01:43:55,040 I'll show it one SEC. This is this stuff. 1732 01:43:55,440 --> 01:43:59,120 So you just thick paper, you know, with seed QRS because you 1733 01:43:59,120 --> 01:44:03,280 can also put it in a QR code that the seeds or your excess 1734 01:44:03,280 --> 01:44:05,240 and then the words, but on thick paper. 1735 01:44:05,640 --> 01:44:08,880 And then next to that we do that into a sealed bag. 1736 01:44:09,080 --> 01:44:13,720 I have them here. So you put it in a sealed bag 1737 01:44:14,920 --> 01:44:17,080 and that's actually what we explained on the website also 1738 01:44:17,080 --> 01:44:19,200 like why do you put it in a sealed bag? 1739 01:44:19,200 --> 01:44:22,480 Yeah, you don't want anyone to touch your backup. 1740 01:44:22,680 --> 01:44:25,960 So whatever backup you have, if it's on steel or it's on paper, 1741 01:44:26,320 --> 01:44:31,640 you want it in a little bag that you can see if someone touched 1742 01:44:31,640 --> 01:44:32,880 it. Because if someone touched it, 1743 01:44:32,880 --> 01:44:37,760 even if it's a multi signature or is as a press race, that part 1744 01:44:37,760 --> 01:44:41,120 is compromised. And also the signing device, you 1745 01:44:41,120 --> 01:44:44,920 put it in a bag because if somebody touched it or found it, 1746 01:44:45,120 --> 01:44:47,880 you can see it and there's a unique number on it. 1747 01:44:47,880 --> 01:44:49,840 It's super cheap. You know, we sell this shit, 1748 01:44:49,840 --> 01:44:53,440 it's like $0.50 and we ship it all in the envelope, you know, 1749 01:44:53,440 --> 01:44:54,880 like. Nice. 1750 01:44:55,480 --> 01:44:57,920 People order this by mouth because they understand that 1751 01:44:57,920 --> 01:45:02,840 it's, it's that's the way to store or have this additional 1752 01:45:02,840 --> 01:45:05,520 security on already proper security. 1753 01:45:05,520 --> 01:45:09,680 And it's super cheap anyway. And this is something we, we 1754 01:45:09,680 --> 01:45:11,960 came up with with a lot of Bitcoiners, you know, like, oh, 1755 01:45:12,080 --> 01:45:13,600 this is the cheapest way to do it. 1756 01:45:14,640 --> 01:45:16,920 And that's, yeah, that's what I love also about the community, 1757 01:45:16,920 --> 01:45:20,200 because everyone thinks about these things and what we just 1758 01:45:20,200 --> 01:45:24,000 discussed, like where, yeah, what, what's the best way? 1759 01:45:24,280 --> 01:45:26,960 It's difficult. Everyone needs a different 1760 01:45:26,960 --> 01:45:30,720 solution. Yeah, yeah, I love that thing. 1761 01:45:30,760 --> 01:45:34,120 Thanks for sharing. I, I think it's a little 1762 01:45:34,120 --> 01:45:37,040 journey. I think the passport is my 4th 1763 01:45:37,040 --> 01:45:41,440 wallet or something you know? I wasn't the LED rec, I wasn't 1764 01:45:41,440 --> 01:45:44,160 the LED rec. That's what pushed me a little 1765 01:45:44,160 --> 01:45:48,520 bit extra. You know, if if an address is 1766 01:45:49,760 --> 01:45:53,720 yeah, known that that that's really scary, right. 1767 01:45:53,720 --> 01:45:58,840 So also with with that's also what I explicitly always say 1768 01:45:58,840 --> 01:46:01,480 that we delete the data directly after we ship. 1769 01:46:02,400 --> 01:46:08,200 So for me, because personally I was yeah, I was in that heck. 1770 01:46:08,200 --> 01:46:11,280 So the Ledger hack, that means that people that ordered 1771 01:46:11,560 --> 01:46:17,160 Ledger's during a certain period, the database was leaked 1772 01:46:17,160 --> 01:46:21,120 and all the e-mail addresses and home addresses, home addresses 1773 01:46:21,640 --> 01:46:26,360 of all these people are shipping because if you didn't use your 1774 01:46:26,360 --> 01:46:32,200 home, but home address for most were on this database and there 1775 01:46:32,200 --> 01:46:33,640 was a lot of shit. Shipped. 1776 01:46:34,240 --> 01:46:38,920 Towards these addresses so physically at this location, it 1777 01:46:38,920 --> 01:46:44,600 was actually not my home so don't worry, but like this shit 1778 01:46:44,600 --> 01:46:48,520 was coming in there on my name and then you know holy shit 1779 01:46:48,520 --> 01:46:50,160 something happened. This is not good. 1780 01:46:50,840 --> 01:46:53,760 And that was the leisure hack. And I, I wanted to prevent 1781 01:46:53,760 --> 01:46:56,560 people from from, yeah, seeing this happen. 1782 01:46:56,560 --> 01:47:02,160 So I don't store any data and it's actually really cumbersome. 1783 01:47:02,160 --> 01:47:07,000 So if you just go to shipping, you know, I have the order. 1784 01:47:07,240 --> 01:47:10,760 I manually input that, you know, or we do that. 1785 01:47:10,840 --> 01:47:15,560 I'm not the only one. We manually input that into the 1786 01:47:15,560 --> 01:47:21,160 shipping part because if you would open an API for the 1787 01:47:21,160 --> 01:47:23,880 shipping, it's huge risk it could be scraped. 1788 01:47:24,800 --> 01:47:27,000 It would end up as a account database. 1789 01:47:27,000 --> 01:47:29,160 With the shipper. So we don't have an account with 1790 01:47:29,160 --> 01:47:31,120 the shipper. So it's not related. 1791 01:47:31,440 --> 01:47:34,520 You want to keep that separate. And I think I'm, I'm like one of 1792 01:47:34,520 --> 01:47:37,640 the only ones who does that. But I'm, I'm, I've been in this 1793 01:47:37,640 --> 01:47:39,440 heck, I, yeah, I took it personal. 1794 01:47:39,480 --> 01:47:42,160 So that's why I'm like this on this. 1795 01:47:42,160 --> 01:47:45,320 So yeah. Nice, nice, nice practice. 1796 01:47:45,640 --> 01:47:48,000 I am. I wanted to ask you the last 1797 01:47:48,000 --> 01:47:50,400 question. Yep, I think we can talk for an 1798 01:47:50,400 --> 01:47:52,960 entire day actually. Maybe we should do that sometime 1799 01:47:52,960 --> 01:47:54,440 soon. Yeah, but the. 1800 01:47:54,600 --> 01:47:56,640 Door is open for you so. Yeah, I know. 1801 01:47:59,160 --> 01:48:00,640 Yeah. The last question is, is, is 1802 01:48:00,640 --> 01:48:04,160 something I ask everyone. I ask the same question. 1803 01:48:04,160 --> 01:48:06,800 And that is what is a core belief you will never let go. 1804 01:48:09,320 --> 01:48:11,720 The core belief I will never let go. 1805 01:48:13,720 --> 01:48:19,120 Be good to others then they will be good for you and Bitcoin will 1806 01:48:19,120 --> 01:48:25,840 help everyone a lot with this. Of that well, thanks for sharing 1807 01:48:25,840 --> 01:48:29,840 and thanks for this conversation yeah, we should do this again 1808 01:48:29,840 --> 01:48:33,360 sometime in the future and then we just go for for three hours I 1809 01:48:33,440 --> 01:48:37,880 think but yeah, I'll make sure to to link to your social 1810 01:48:38,200 --> 01:48:42,240 socials and and to your company so people can check it out and 1811 01:48:42,360 --> 01:48:44,560 yeah man thanks. Sorry for the long rants, thank 1812 01:48:44,560 --> 01:48:45,840 you. No, I love it. 1813 01:48:45,840 --> 01:48:46,920 I love it. Thank you man. 1814 01:48:47,440 --> 01:48:50,120 I hope you enjoyed this episode. If you did, it would be amazing 1815 01:48:50,120 --> 01:48:52,960 if you could rate, review and subscribe on the podcast 1816 01:48:52,960 --> 01:48:55,880 platform of your choice. It will help us educate more 1817 01:48:55,880 --> 01:48:58,000 millennials on the importance of Bitcoin. 1818 01:48:58,280 --> 01:49:00,040 You can follow and connect with me on Twitter. 1819 01:49:00,040 --> 01:49:04,520 I'm Brom K that's at BR AM K, and if you are or know someone 1820 01:49:04,520 --> 01:49:06,560 who has an interesting perspective on Bitcoin that's 1821 01:49:06,560 --> 01:49:09,560 worth sharing, hit me up. I read and reply to every single 1822 01:49:09,560 --> 01:49:11,480 message. I appreciate your support and 1823 01:49:11,480 --> 01:49:13,120 hope you'll be here for the next episode. 1824 01:49:13,440 --> 01:49:14,720 Thanks for listening. Bye.