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Hey there, this is from Constant
and you're listening to Bitcoin 

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for Millennials. 
Together with my guests on this 

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podcast, I go on a journey to 
discover how our current 

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financial system works, why it's
flawed and why Bitcoin is much 

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relevant technology that you 
should understand and adopt. 

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In this episode I'm joined by 
Julian Linegar. 

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He's the CEO and Co founder of 
the Swiss Bitcoin only platform 

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Relay. 
After bachelor's in psychology 

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and a Master's in Business 
Administration. 

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He worked in banking and 
management consulting and after 

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that he Co founded several 
companies including 

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Switzerland's leading blockchain
training course for the 

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financial industry. 
As Relay is one of the biggest 

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European on RAMPS Bitcoin, I'm 
excited to talk with him today 

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and talk about the future of 
Bitcoin in Europe and beyond. 

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So welcome, Julian. 
Wow. 

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Let's go Brown. 
Thank you very much for this 

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invitation. 
Really looking forward to to 

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having this conversation. 
Yeah, awesome to talk to a 

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fellow European bitcoiner. 
I mean there are a lot, but I 

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haven't talked to that many on 
the on the podcast yet. 

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And of course you're based in 
Switzerland which has a certain 

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also you know, history in the 
financial world. 

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So I was super interested to to 
explore that too. 

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But first question, I saw you 
were born in 93. 

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So 9292, There's a lot of 
misinformation lately there 

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there was an article in a Swiss 
newspaper that said I'm 29, I'm 

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actually 31 and I was born in 
1992. 

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OK, so 92 but still a late 
millennial then, right? 

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How? 
How do you experience explaining

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Bitcoin to like our generational
fears? 

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I do definitely identify as a 
millennial. 

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I mean many people also tell me 
you look very young. 

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I know I look very young because
I'm into Bitcoin for almost 10 

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years. 
This keeps me young and I also 

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feel like I'm 20. 
You know, I think my lifestyle 

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is not really the the one from a
beginning 30 year olds. 

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It's more like a 20 year old and
it's fun, definitely. 

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I am a millennial, I feel like a
millennial and I love this 

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generation. 
I think it's the most important 

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generation. 
It is the generation that is 

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already the the biggest consumer
that we are the biggest 

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consumers in the world. 
And in the next 10 years, we 

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will be the biggest investors in
the world because we will 

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inherit a lot of money. 
We will make a lot of money, We 

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will control a lot of money 
through being in executive 

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positions at financial 
institutions etcetera. 

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And that's why I think it is so 
important to explain our 

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generation, the millennials, 
what money is and what Bitcoin 

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is, what good investments are 
etcetera. 

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And I think it's not done 
efficiently through like the 

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education system or whatever, 
you know, public information 

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people get. 
It's I think really important to

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to create this mindset and to 
continuously educate yourself 

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about finances and including 
Bitcoin, obviously. 

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And so how I explain Bitcoin to 
this generation is really, this 

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is our number one chance to fix 
the financial system. 

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This is one of the most exciting
investments of our century and 

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it has really the potential to 
profoundly change how the world 

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and our society and our economic
and financial system works. 

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So it's a huge opportunity that 
we should not miss as a 

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generation. 
Yeah. 

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And so how do you experience it 
when you when you talk about 

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that like I, I, I have the same 
as in you know we never got 

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taught this in school, you know 
what is money and you know or or

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about personal finance and 
finance as a whole actually. 

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So like my experience is that 
once you say this, what you just

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said, then the question will pop
up like what is wrong with our 

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current system, you know, 
because especially in the 

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Western world, you know it just 
works well in your country it 

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works even better, you know. 
So how, how do you view that? 

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Like how do we, how do we get 
people to see or what are your 

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angles to talk about when you 
talk about like what what is 

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wrong? 
I mean the first reaction 

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usually is you are totally nuts.
Like what is wrong with you? 

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And that's fine. 
We're still so early, you know 

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and we as as bitcoiners, we 
sometimes also should be a bit 

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reflective of this and like you 
know not take us too seriously 

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because we are super early and 
whenever you're super early to 

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something, you're also viewed as
a as a bit of a freak, as a bit 

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of an outsider and and that's 
fine. 

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So I just enjoy these 
conversations, even though they 

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don't really many of my friends,
they don't really take me 

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seriously still, even after 
having the success with Relay 

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etcetera. 
And they do get into Bitcoin 

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slowly but steadily, but they 
still look at it as like a 

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speculation and oh, now it's too
late to get in and when it goes 

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down like oh maybe should I buy 
now, but then I need to get rid 

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of it quickly. 
It's really it's a speculation 

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for them. 
It's fun to read about it and 

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most of them don't really take 
the necessary hours to really 

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understand how profound it is. 
And I just, I just keep on 

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talking about it and then I 
think they are making their 

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steps towards really 
understanding it. 

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And at one point they will adopt
it. 

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But at this point even in 
Switzerland, which is which is 

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pretty progressive in that 
regard, we are at 15 to maybe 

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20% of the people that have 
actually accessed Bitcoin 

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already or have invested in 
Bitcoin or at one point owned 

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Bitcoin or still owned Bitcoin. 
It's quite high. 

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I think in Germany and most 
other European countries like 

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10%. 
In the world it's more like 5-6 

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percent. 
So the the option rate is really

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low still on a on a grand scale.
But yeah, and then especially 

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here in in Switzerland, as you 
said, people like, oh, I mean 

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money just works. 
Why do we need another money? 

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We already have digital money. 
We already have credit cards. 

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I can buy stuff online with 
twins, for example. 

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Twins in Switzerland is 
basically like the the Cash app 

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or the Venmo in in the US So a 
very cool payment app. 

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Works great. 
Nice pentech, you know. 

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So they're like yeah, what? 
What's wrong? 

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And and it is important to to 
tell them and help them 

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understand and make very quick 
and easy to process pieces of 

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information. 
What is wrong? 

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Because it's true. 
Like there needs to be a 

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problem. 
I mean we're we're 

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entrepreneurs, right? 
There needs to be a problem in 

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order for a solution to make 
sense. 

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If there's no problem, then 
let's not try to, you know, find

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a solution for a problem that 
doesn't exist. 

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Let's focus our time on on 
something else. 

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But I do think there are, you 
know, basic things, basic 

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problems in the financial 
system, how it works now in Fiat

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money that I think our 
generation should not just, you 

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know, accept. 
They should at least look for 

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alternatives and in the end just
check both and adopt and use 

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whatever they like more. 
I, for my part, definitely like 

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Bitcoin more than our current 
financial system. 

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So what is wrong with current 
Fiat money? 

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I think it's just too centrally 
controlled. 

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So you cannot do anything with 
money basically, at least not 

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online, without having to fully 
trust the central banks that are

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just, you know, printing, 
expanding money as they as they 

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wish and banks that hold your 
money and help you transfer your

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money. 
You cannot transfer money 

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digitally at all without asking 
your bank's permission, right. 

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So it's not, it's not 
decentralized, it's not 

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permissionless and that's what I
really like for example about 

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Bitcoin. 
It gives you this freedom of 

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controlling your money yourself 
in a self custodial way and 

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sending it in a decentralized, 
censorship resistant, 

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peer-to-peer way very 
efficiently globally for low 

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cost and quick and and and and 
and fast in in low time 

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basically, which which I really 
like. 

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So I I like this kind of aspect 
of it and what I like most as 

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well as it does is independent 
from politics and from central 

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banks that can just print it 
away. 

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So the value is stable and even 
increasing on the long run 

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because it really is really 
similar to gold in all the great

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characteristics of of gold that 
has made gold the dominant store

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of value in the last 1000 years.
But so it has all the benefits 

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but it doesn't have to be the 
downsides of gold, whereas 

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mainly the the scarcity that it 
it cannot just be printed or 

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produced like like Fiat money. 
So in the long run, this leads 

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to Bitcoin being volatile maybe 
in the short run, but going up 

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in value in the long run. 
So it makes it a very good store

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of value and an asset that keeps
your purchasing power in the 

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long run. 
Whereas the Fiat is the 

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opposite, it's in the short run,
in short term it's quite stable.

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That's why also, for example 
Swiss people, they like it, but 

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even in Switzerland and mostly 
also in other countries, in the 

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long run the value goes down, 
which is safe because there is 

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always inflation. 
And even if inflation is like in

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Switzerland around 1 to 2%, 
still in 10 years it will be 

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worth much less. 
You will not be able if if you 

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are trying to save for a house 
now it will take you 10 years to

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get the down payment for a house
now. 

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Well this money that you will 
have saved for the next 10 years

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it will not be able to buy you 
the same house and then so and 

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even worse in other countries 
like for example Turkey of 

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course there it takes a year to 
to basically cut your cut your 

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purchase and power in half when 
it comes to Fiat mine. 

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But these are the these are the 
main points I I tried to bring 

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up where people in in like 
especially in our generation as 

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well in like their daily 
business and like every day they

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they focus on other stuff. 
Right. 

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You don't really see it because 
they say yeah look it works. 

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I can hold my money I can 
transfer my money the value is 

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roughly the same from one day to
another. 

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So it's fine what's the problem.
But then when you zoom out a bit

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and you look at things in a 
10/20/30 year time frame, then 

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they start understanding the 
problem and that's where they 

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are becoming more and more open 
to to alternatives like Bitcoin.

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Yeah. 
Hey there. 

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Thanks so much for listening to 
this episode. 

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I just really want to ask you 
for a quick favor. 

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Over the last few months, I've 
seen that only 75% of people who

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listen to this podcast or watch 
it on YouTube are actually 

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00:11:14,600 --> 00:11:16,320
subscribed. 
The most important thing I'm 

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currently focusing on, next to 
hopefully giving you interesting

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conversations is growing this 
podcast subscriber base so I can

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continue with it into the 
future. 

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I want to thank everyone who's 
been viewing and listening to 

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Bitcoin for millennials leaving 
comments here and sending me 

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DMS. 
It's been super, super 

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motivating. 
So thank you so much. 

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So I really want to ask you to 
please hit the subscribe button 

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on YouTube or follow me on your 
favorite podcasting app if you 

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00:11:39,280 --> 00:11:42,280
are enjoying this podcast. 
Thanks again for joining me on 

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this journey. 
Now back to the conversation. 

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Yeah, what I also really like is
that the information is so 

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readily available, right? 
I I don't think we need like 

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more. 
There's not necessarily a need 

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for like more content that 
explains how Bitcoin, you know 

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functionally works. 
But it's more about you know, 

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because anyone can study that 
anyone can can find that on the 

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Internet, right. 
It's more about finding you know

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what are the threads that you 
can give to people that they can

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pull on to start you know 
researching this for themselves.

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You know when I when we talk 
about the problem or like what 

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is how is the money system that 
you are participating in, how is

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that actually constructed. 
And so I also think that you 

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know especially our our 
generation, I mean this podcast 

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this is focused on the on that 
you know we are going to be the 

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first generation who's going to 
move more into power and own 

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more of the wealth right. 
And there will be a 

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displacement. 
I think of wealth. 

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Like there will be a certain 
group will stick with the old 

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system and a certain group will 
move to that new system. 

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But I also really enthusiastic 
about Gen. 

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Z in some way. 
You know, like I think a lot of 

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people shit on Gen. 
Z, but I don't think it's it's 

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fair because they understand 
like all these main 

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characteristics of Bitcoin. 
Like they they understand the 

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entire digital aspect, the 
portability aspect, the fact 

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that the that it doesn't really 
make sense that you know or well

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they they are they say like they
are not they are familiar with 

229
00:13:26,160 --> 00:13:29,920
like digital assets like owning 
stuff in games and and etcetera,

230
00:13:30,000 --> 00:13:33,160
right. 
But they also have access to all

231
00:13:33,160 --> 00:13:38,360
this information that for you 
know growing up that for example

232
00:13:38,360 --> 00:13:41,800
the Boomers or Gen. 
X obviously did not have right. 

233
00:13:41,800 --> 00:13:45,440
And so they have a chance, I 
think to early in their life 

234
00:13:45,440 --> 00:13:49,600
learn more about the financial 
system and what is money, but 

235
00:13:49,640 --> 00:13:52,600
also even more than us, right? 
Even though we grew up with the 

236
00:13:52,600 --> 00:13:55,920
Internet, like they just have 
more information. 

237
00:13:55,920 --> 00:14:00,520
So I do have like faith in the 
fact that they will, they 

238
00:14:00,520 --> 00:14:04,200
understand that everything 
that's known is free on the 

239
00:14:04,200 --> 00:14:08,440
Internet already and they don't 
have to trust, you know, 

240
00:14:09,120 --> 00:14:13,200
whatever someone says to them, 
like they can already search for

241
00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:16,040
the right information. 
So I'm also optimistic to see 

242
00:14:16,440 --> 00:14:18,680
that generation follow us. 
Definitely. 

243
00:14:18,680 --> 00:14:23,560
And I mean these are the the the
we had digital natives, like our

244
00:14:23,560 --> 00:14:27,760
parents were not digital 
natives, but they still they 

245
00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:31,680
when they were maybe 20 or 30, 
they got in touch with the 

246
00:14:31,680 --> 00:14:34,520
Internet, right. 
And they adapted of course, but 

247
00:14:34,520 --> 00:14:38,880
also not everyone like fully 
adapted, like there are still 50

248
00:14:38,880 --> 00:14:43,640
year olds, 60 year olds now that
don't really want to do stuff 

249
00:14:43,640 --> 00:14:46,800
over E banking that are not 
really into social media 

250
00:14:46,800 --> 00:14:49,280
etcetera. 
You know, not all of them have 

251
00:14:49,280 --> 00:14:51,400
adapted. 
And then, but the next 

252
00:14:51,400 --> 00:14:54,040
generation, our generation now 
we're fully digital native. 

253
00:14:54,040 --> 00:14:56,200
We grew up with it. 
For us, it's clear like there's 

254
00:14:56,200 --> 00:14:59,960
not even a question whether or 
not the Internet is a good thing

255
00:14:59,960 --> 00:15:02,240
or whether it's going to come or
not or it's going to go away. 

256
00:15:02,240 --> 00:15:05,200
No, the Internet is like part of
our infrastructure, global 

257
00:15:05,200 --> 00:15:07,520
infrastructure. 
It's just clear and same 

258
00:15:07,560 --> 00:15:10,040
probably happens now with our 
generation. 

259
00:15:10,040 --> 00:15:17,840
Some of US are embracing Bitcoin
and AI and like all these big 

260
00:15:18,040 --> 00:15:19,800
trends. 
Some say, you know, it's just a 

261
00:15:19,800 --> 00:15:22,760
fad, it's going to go away and 
there's this this kind of fight,

262
00:15:23,160 --> 00:15:27,680
whereas the next generation Gen.
X or even the the Chen, what is 

263
00:15:27,680 --> 00:15:29,200
it next? 
Gen. 

264
00:15:29,240 --> 00:15:30,440
Z, Yeah. 
Then after Gen. 

265
00:15:30,440 --> 00:15:31,400
ZI. 
Don't even know. 

266
00:15:31,400 --> 00:15:33,760
What they call it. 
Gen. next I think it's not 

267
00:15:33,920 --> 00:15:35,520
really this is just the next 
generation. 

268
00:15:35,800 --> 00:15:39,000
They will grow up with it. 
They there will be no question. 

269
00:15:39,120 --> 00:15:41,080
Like Bitcoin is just when he's 
here. 

270
00:15:41,080 --> 00:15:43,760
It's part of the global 
infrastructure. 

271
00:15:43,880 --> 00:15:47,680
Like of course I, of course if I
have some spare money I will put

272
00:15:47,680 --> 00:15:49,640
it in a Bitcoin. 
It's not going to be it's not 

273
00:15:49,640 --> 00:15:54,200
going to be a question. 
So that's also what makes me 

274
00:15:54,560 --> 00:15:59,080
feel very excited about the 
future is that there's no way 

275
00:15:59,280 --> 00:16:03,720
the coin can go away anymore now
that it has passed this point 

276
00:16:03,720 --> 00:16:09,040
where you know it's, it will be 
accepted by future generations 

277
00:16:09,040 --> 00:16:13,280
because it's, it is here, 
BlackRock is into it, big 

278
00:16:13,280 --> 00:16:15,880
companies are into it, countries
are into it. 

279
00:16:16,640 --> 00:16:20,320
So many people are into it, 
experts like thought leaders are

280
00:16:20,320 --> 00:16:23,840
into it. 
And it's just because they are 

281
00:16:23,840 --> 00:16:27,360
digital native of course and 
they are aware of digital assets

282
00:16:27,360 --> 00:16:30,240
etcetera. 
And because it's it's so big and

283
00:16:30,240 --> 00:16:33,400
the network effect is so high, 
it's just clear it's not going 

284
00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:37,960
to go away. 
Maybe these current generations 

285
00:16:37,960 --> 00:16:41,440
are still, you know they still 
struggling struggling with it 

286
00:16:41,440 --> 00:16:46,760
especially the the the older 
people like CEOs from JP Morgan 

287
00:16:46,760 --> 00:16:49,000
and Vanguard etcetera, they're 
sometimes they're still 

288
00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:52,000
struggling with it. 
But the the CEOs of these 

289
00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:56,840
company in 1020, thirty years 
from now, of course they will 

290
00:16:56,840 --> 00:16:59,000
not struggle with it. 
Of course they will embrace it. 

291
00:16:59,640 --> 00:17:02,760
Yeah, I agree. 
I also say this a lot to to 

292
00:17:02,760 --> 00:17:05,119
people like, you know what your 
signal should be. 

293
00:17:05,119 --> 00:17:10,359
If like, you know, veterans of 
Wall Street with 30 to 40 years 

294
00:17:10,359 --> 00:17:14,440
of experience, like do a 180 and
go all into Bitcoin, like that 

295
00:17:14,440 --> 00:17:16,760
should be your signal. 
Do you know how hard it is to, 

296
00:17:17,960 --> 00:17:21,680
you know, recognize that you got
wealthy of a broken money system

297
00:17:21,720 --> 00:17:23,560
and then you found the solution 
to that? 

298
00:17:23,560 --> 00:17:29,320
And then you actually, you know,
overcame the ego challenge and 

299
00:17:29,440 --> 00:17:31,440
and went into that direction 
like that. 

300
00:17:31,440 --> 00:17:33,360
That is for me the purest 
signal, right. 

301
00:17:33,360 --> 00:17:36,880
So and and there's not a lot, 
but I think the ones that do get

302
00:17:36,880 --> 00:17:40,040
it and talk about it, that I 
think their voice is really 

303
00:17:40,040 --> 00:17:41,800
powerful. 
So you know, like people like 

304
00:17:41,920 --> 00:17:48,640
Lawrence LaPorte or Bob Burnett 
or can't come up with his name 

305
00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:51,640
like like these these classic 
like Druckenmiller, Paul Truder 

306
00:17:51,640 --> 00:17:54,200
Jones, like all these Wall 
Street legends that just say, 

307
00:17:54,800 --> 00:17:59,760
you know, this is the the most, 
the best thing I've ever seen 

308
00:18:00,040 --> 00:18:03,320
basically. 
You know, then I think like I am

309
00:18:03,320 --> 00:18:07,120
45, like that is that is like 
his entire career of experience.

310
00:18:07,120 --> 00:18:10,600
And so, you know, you do see 
those people also in the boomer 

311
00:18:10,600 --> 00:18:12,200
generation. 
But it's interesting to see like

312
00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:15,600
how it permeates, you know, 
between digital natives and and 

313
00:18:15,600 --> 00:18:19,040
the boomers. 
So yeah, we'll, we'll see where 

314
00:18:19,040 --> 00:18:20,640
it goes. 
But I think it's fun to also 

315
00:18:20,640 --> 00:18:23,760
talk about, you know, again, 
like I think anyone can find 

316
00:18:23,760 --> 00:18:27,240
information about how it works. 
But like for this podcast, what 

317
00:18:27,240 --> 00:18:30,560
I love also to talk about like 
how how did you discover 

318
00:18:30,560 --> 00:18:33,080
Bitcoin? 
But also how did you come to 

319
00:18:33,080 --> 00:18:36,480
understand money? 
So who or what has been like 

320
00:18:36,480 --> 00:18:40,560
most influential in shaping your
views about like money, risk, 

321
00:18:40,760 --> 00:18:42,840
wealth? 
Like, how did you learn about 

322
00:18:42,840 --> 00:18:46,040
this? 
Well, I didn't grow up in a 

323
00:18:46,240 --> 00:18:49,160
family that cared too much about
money at all. 

324
00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:52,760
So and also the school system, 
the education system here in 

325
00:18:52,760 --> 00:18:55,120
Switzerland, even though 
Switzerland is this financial 

326
00:18:55,120 --> 00:18:58,200
hub etcetera and known around 
the world for this. 

327
00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:01,080
And there are a lot of banks and
private banks and there's a lot 

328
00:19:01,080 --> 00:19:04,000
of gold and it's a bit one of 
the best currencies etcetera. 

329
00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:09,080
Despite all that, like I have 
learned zero about finances 

330
00:19:09,080 --> 00:19:15,320
until I'm I was like 20, like 0.
My mom was always still a 

331
00:19:15,440 --> 00:19:19,360
pharmacist. 
My dad was or is a language 

332
00:19:19,360 --> 00:19:24,920
teacher and and artist. 
So money was always there was 

333
00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:27,480
enough money. 
There was never a lot of money, 

334
00:19:27,680 --> 00:19:30,920
but it was never a topic. 
It's never a topic to educate 

335
00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:34,200
your kids about money. 
It's just still still now it's 

336
00:19:34,200 --> 00:19:38,560
not a topic. 
So then when I only when I 

337
00:19:38,560 --> 00:19:43,720
started studying and I chose 
psychology because I you know, 

338
00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:47,360
like people and I at that time 
thought I want to work with 

339
00:19:47,360 --> 00:19:52,160
people and one good Ave. would 
be to study psychology, I had to

340
00:19:52,160 --> 00:19:56,520
choose a minor. 
So 2/3 of my studies the major 

341
00:19:56,520 --> 00:19:58,320
was psychology, but I had to 
choose a minor. 

342
00:19:58,600 --> 00:20:02,200
I was like, OK, maybe something 
good would be business. 

343
00:20:02,240 --> 00:20:05,960
It seems quite easy. 
To learn and kind of everyone is

344
00:20:05,960 --> 00:20:08,680
doing it and it seems to be 
applicable to the to the world. 

345
00:20:08,680 --> 00:20:12,480
If you are are looking for a job
it makes makes your life easier.

346
00:20:12,480 --> 00:20:15,280
So I was like, Nah, sure, why 
not let's let's try business 

347
00:20:15,280 --> 00:20:18,520
administration. 
And I started liking it and 

348
00:20:18,520 --> 00:20:22,560
there that was when I started to
learn about finances and the 

349
00:20:22,560 --> 00:20:26,520
corporate finance courses in the
in the accounting courses and 

350
00:20:26,520 --> 00:20:33,720
then obviously in the economic 
courses they were cool but but 

351
00:20:33,720 --> 00:20:36,200
also it doesn't really teach you
about personal finance at all 

352
00:20:36,600 --> 00:20:40,120
that that really just came out 
of my interest then that I was 

353
00:20:40,120 --> 00:20:44,960
reading more about investing in 
stocks and bonds and how to how 

354
00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:49,360
to make more money, how to 
calculate return on investments,

355
00:20:49,360 --> 00:20:52,760
etc. 
And the risk reward that is 

356
00:20:52,760 --> 00:20:58,520
always, you know an important 
thing to consider and what what 

357
00:20:58,520 --> 00:21:00,200
different assets classes are 
there. 

358
00:21:00,520 --> 00:21:04,640
OK, invest in stocks and bonds 
and different currencies and 

359
00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:07,800
precious metals like gold and 
real estate and etcetera and 

360
00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:11,040
then you make portfolio. 
And so I I just learned a lot 

361
00:21:11,040 --> 00:21:15,200
about this in personal research 
and YouTube videos and reading 

362
00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:18,280
books and articles and talking 
to friends who are who are more 

363
00:21:18,280 --> 00:21:21,320
into it etcetera. 
And that's then also how I 

364
00:21:21,320 --> 00:21:23,120
actually got into bitcoins 
there. 

365
00:21:23,120 --> 00:21:26,800
There was one guy that didn't 
stand it with me, but he was we 

366
00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:30,480
we grew up together, We're very 
good friends, and he was more 

367
00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:34,560
into tech usually. 
I was more into like business 

368
00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:38,840
and finance and stuff like that.
And so it was interesting that 

369
00:21:38,840 --> 00:21:41,040
he actually came to me with 
Bitcoin. 

370
00:21:41,040 --> 00:21:44,240
But from a tech perspective, he 
thought that Bitcoin is just the

371
00:21:44,240 --> 00:21:46,200
coolest thing ever in terms of 
tech. 

372
00:21:46,200 --> 00:21:50,800
That was 2015 and he told me 
about it. 

373
00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:53,040
I saw it. 
I didn't understand the tech, 

374
00:21:53,040 --> 00:21:57,440
like at all, nothing of it. 
But I thought it was super 

375
00:21:57,440 --> 00:21:59,640
interesting from another 
perspective, the financial 

376
00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:04,200
perspective and like, OK, this 
is something that looks like an 

377
00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:07,640
asset, right? 
The price goes up and down 24/7 

378
00:22:07,680 --> 00:22:10,640
in, in seconds. 
So it looks like a stock, but 

379
00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:14,120
it's not a stock. 
If there's no company, there's 

380
00:22:14,120 --> 00:22:17,400
no dividends, there's no cash 
flow, It's not a stock, it's not

381
00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:20,920
a company. 
But so then it looks like a 

382
00:22:20,920 --> 00:22:27,560
currency, but there's no nation 
behind it or any like group 

383
00:22:27,560 --> 00:22:31,160
issuing group of the currencies 
that candles and it's not 

384
00:22:31,160 --> 00:22:33,760
accepted for payments. 
So now it's also another 

385
00:22:33,760 --> 00:22:37,520
currency and it looks like gold,
something like digital gold, 

386
00:22:37,520 --> 00:22:41,520
like a digital commodity. 
And then that's why that's what 

387
00:22:41,520 --> 00:22:44,640
I, when I realized OK, it's 
probably closest to to a digital

388
00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:48,560
commodity and basically the the 
framework that Michael Saylor is

389
00:22:48,560 --> 00:22:52,280
also offering to to think about 
it, it's a digital property, 

390
00:22:52,600 --> 00:22:57,000
digital commodity. 
But in the end it's all of this 

391
00:22:57,000 --> 00:23:00,000
together somehow and it's I 
still really haven't figured out

392
00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:02,640
what exactly it is. 
It's just it just seems like the

393
00:23:02,760 --> 00:23:07,480
best way to store wealth and 
money for the future. 

394
00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:10,840
And I just think the the value 
is always going to go up and up 

395
00:23:10,840 --> 00:23:13,920
and up and purchasing power will
only increase because of all the

396
00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:15,840
characteristics. 
And I think it's in the end 

397
00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:17,280
something that we haven't seen 
before. 

398
00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:20,240
It's a mix of all these things 
just mentioned, much more 

399
00:23:20,800 --> 00:23:26,160
probably it's just the network 
to you, a protocol to use for 

400
00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:30,880
storing and transferring value 
in time and space. 

401
00:23:31,240 --> 00:23:33,480
Just fascinating. 
And that that's when I was 

402
00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:36,640
really hooked and learned more 
and more about it and got into 

403
00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:40,960
into it, first as a hobby, then 
as then more professionally. 

404
00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:45,040
And now I think I would probably
spend my whole life in in this 

405
00:23:45,040 --> 00:23:46,680
industry. 
It's so fascinating. 

406
00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:50,720
So do you like, as you said, 
like you didn't understand it 

407
00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:52,000
technically? 
I think no. 

408
00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:55,840
Nobody understands Bitcoin at 
the first impression or the 2nd 

409
00:23:55,840 --> 00:24:01,000
or the 3rd or the 4th, right? 
Like it's, it's, it's it's so 

410
00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:05,120
eventually you realize it's so 
big and that is why it takes so 

411
00:24:05,120 --> 00:24:08,680
much time to understand. 
But do you know, can you 

412
00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:15,800
remember like what what kind of,
like personal belief or no 

413
00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:19,360
arguments you had that made you,
like not not get it? 

414
00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:22,360
You know, like like what I said 
before, I think it's 

415
00:24:22,360 --> 00:24:24,480
interesting. 
Like a lot of people dismiss it 

416
00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:27,400
in the beginning or they're 
like, no, this can't be dead. 

417
00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:30,320
What people say it is, you know,
like do you, do you remember 

418
00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:31,840
that? 
But then also what what like 

419
00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:37,800
really made you like get it. 
I think I really got it after 

420
00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:41,440
being like five years into this 
or something where I actually 

421
00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:47,320
realized, OK, if if we have an 
exchange of value, right, we 

422
00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:50,200
shake hands on you doing 
something for me and I give you,

423
00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:52,640
you give me value, I give you 
value in return. 

424
00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:55,320
That basically represents 
energy, right? 

425
00:24:55,320 --> 00:25:01,560
You expend energy, physical or 
or mentally, and I have money 

426
00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:04,120
which is captured energy that 
represents that. 

427
00:25:04,120 --> 00:25:08,520
That is our exchange. 
And once I realized that we are 

428
00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:12,760
storing our energy in to future 
time and space in a system 

429
00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:19,720
that's stealing that energy at 
least at 2% a year and in effect

430
00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:22,760
way more. 
If I can move that block of 

431
00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:27,160
energy that I gathered into a 
system that protects that block 

432
00:25:27,160 --> 00:25:32,240
of energy, then I was like, 
yeah, I of course I should do, I

433
00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:35,560
should, I should do that, right.
It's it's being stolen from 

434
00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:39,480
versus protecting yourself. 
And then I was like, OK, then I 

435
00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:42,280
got into a rush. 
Basically I was like, OK, I need

436
00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:46,160
to, I need to move like do you 
have any any of that that you 

437
00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:50,800
can recall? 
Yeah, I think first why I 

438
00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:53,680
dismissed it or why I just 
couldn't believe it's going to 

439
00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:57,080
work on the long run. 
I'm from the beginning, I was, I

440
00:25:57,080 --> 00:26:00,360
was hooked, I was fascinated and
I thought it was a great, at 

441
00:26:00,360 --> 00:26:04,360
least experiment or a great 
innovation, a great idea. 

442
00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:08,960
I just had trouble the first 
probably two or three years to 

443
00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:12,760
really believe that it's going 
to work on the long run because 

444
00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:15,480
there is nothing behind it. 
And there's this is still a 

445
00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:19,920
criticism like that a lot of 
boomers come up with because 

446
00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:23,040
like a lot of skeptics come up 
with, it's like there's nothing 

447
00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:27,160
behind it. 
We we're always taught that 

448
00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:30,800
there must be something behind 
something in order to work. 

449
00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:36,400
So for example even with gold 
they say Oh yeah, but it's used 

450
00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:40,760
in the industry and it's used 
for luxury goods etcetera and 

451
00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:44,000
jewelry whatever. 
Which is bullshit because it's 

452
00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:48,080
only this only represents like 
20% of the gold's market cap and

453
00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:52,560
80% is the monetary thing where 
also nothing else but gold which

454
00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:56,720
cannot eat is behind it. 
But anyway that that's the the 

455
00:26:56,720 --> 00:27:00,480
criticism or like behind Fiat 
money there is there is the 

456
00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:05,760
nation, this whole government 
and the whole economic power of 

457
00:27:05,760 --> 00:27:07,800
this this nation, right? 
There's not there's something 

458
00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:10,560
something behind it, something 
to touch, something concrete. 

459
00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:15,200
And this this is what we are 
taught right, the 1st 20 years 

460
00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:18,680
of our lives. 
And so when I saw this, this 

461
00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:24,160
would be super cool if it would 
work, but it only is based on a 

462
00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:28,760
belief system that a community 
of people believe that it has 

463
00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:31,040
value. 
And maybe because then also in 

464
00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:34,240
2015 this community was still 
globally very small. 

465
00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:38,120
And so I thought, yeah, probably
just the hype and it will go 

466
00:27:38,120 --> 00:27:41,960
away because all of these people
will move on to something else 

467
00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:45,120
that will stop believing in it. 
And then it will have almost, 

468
00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:50,040
almost 0 value or only a value 
for a very small community of 

469
00:27:50,360 --> 00:27:52,960
believers that, you know, still 
go with it, but most of them 

470
00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:54,840
will just move on to the next 
cool thing. 

471
00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:57,880
And then you know, it's not 
going to become a global thing. 

472
00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:01,160
That was my biggest worry. 
But then after two or three 

473
00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:05,360
years and especially after the 
big bull market in 2017 and this

474
00:28:05,360 --> 00:28:10,320
whole ICO craze, etcetera and 
the the big block war and all 

475
00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:14,360
this, all this drama, all this 
chaos and Bitcoin was still 

476
00:28:14,360 --> 00:28:16,080
there. 
And it was not only still there,

477
00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:20,640
it it was much stronger and the 
community was was only growing 

478
00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:27,040
and new thought leaders, new 
experts, new companies came in 

479
00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:29,840
and more and more people came 
and stayed on the long run. 

480
00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:32,640
More and more content was 
produced about it, books are 

481
00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:36,840
written about it, movies were 
released about it, etcetera. 

482
00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:41,320
Less and less. 
I thought it was a worry that 

483
00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:44,400
this thing is just going away, 
No one believes in it anymore 

484
00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:48,200
because also the fundamentals 
like it's just it's not only a 

485
00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:51,880
belief system, it's a good 
people believe in it for a good 

486
00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:56,960
reason, because it is just the 
best money and store of value 

487
00:28:56,960 --> 00:28:59,240
asset that human beings have 
ever invented. 

488
00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:03,280
If you look at how money needs 
to look like in order to work, 

489
00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:08,520
sound money and the sound store 
of value, then it has to be, you

490
00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:11,440
know, the scarcity is important,
portability is important, 

491
00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:16,760
divisibility is important. 
They're like these seven, these 

492
00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:18,560
seven traits that it needs to 
have. 

493
00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:24,520
And Bitcoin just excels against 
any other commodity or any other

494
00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:27,160
asset by far. 
It's better than Fiat money in 

495
00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:31,200
these regards, better than gold 
and other precious metal in this

496
00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:32,600
regard. 
It's better than anything in 

497
00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:33,920
this regard. 
Isn't this? 

498
00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:38,520
Also, isn't this also the thing 
that I really want to emphasize 

499
00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:40,960
more? 
Like I think the invitation to 

500
00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:44,280
people listening or watching or,
you know, whatever content they 

501
00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:47,120
consume about Bitcoin, the 
invitation should be about you 

502
00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:50,320
should study it. 
The whole point is that we 

503
00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:52,840
don't, we don't have faith or 
what did you say? 

504
00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:56,080
Like, yeah, we don't have faith 
or we don't believe in this 

505
00:29:56,360 --> 00:30:00,960
because someone else says, says 
it's going to be something. 

506
00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:05,760
No, we believe in it because we 
can actually verify it. 

507
00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:11,080
We can verify that how it's 
proposed to work, that it 

508
00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:14,440
actually works like that. 
That is the entire point, right?

509
00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:18,880
The entire point is that you do 
not have to believe what someone

510
00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:21,320
else says. 
Please don't believe us. 

511
00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:27,760
But then also go out there and 
try to verify for yourself that 

512
00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:30,720
the money is broken, that 
Bitcoin works in a certain way. 

513
00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:35,560
How that is a complete 180 as 
opposed to the money system that

514
00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:37,040
you currently participate in, 
right? 

515
00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:39,720
Like you, you have to do the 
action. 

516
00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:44,200
The action is not by Bitcoin. 
The action is study Bitcoin and 

517
00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:47,400
and try to disprove us. 
Because I would love to be 

518
00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:52,880
disproven in my understanding 
and belief in what this could 

519
00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:57,520
be, right. 
And so when people yesterday, I 

520
00:30:57,520 --> 00:31:00,440
had some fun interactions again.
When people say, oh, it's a cult

521
00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:03,400
or it's a religion or whatever, 
and I say, well, I actually 

522
00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:09,520
believe in something that I can 
verify, try that for any belief 

523
00:31:09,520 --> 00:31:15,200
you have currently, it's because
someone else said so And you 

524
00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:18,480
just adopted that thought 
because you know, whatever 

525
00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:24,280
reason, there's nothing you can 
factually verify, right, 

526
00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:27,880
cryptographically even verify, 
like this is the only thing. 

527
00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:33,440
And so it's a super rational. 
It's, it's it's so rational that

528
00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:36,680
lots of people just cannot wrap 
their heads around it, right. 

529
00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:40,720
Because also to to your point, 
like your first thought about, 

530
00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:43,920
oh, it, it cannot be this what 
is behind this, like all these 

531
00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:45,960
questions, you know, you're 
doubting and all these things. 

532
00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:50,040
And this is also I think a 
symptom like that nihilistic 

533
00:31:50,040 --> 00:31:53,680
approach instead of optimistic 
approach, right. 

534
00:31:54,560 --> 00:31:57,640
That that is a symptom of of the
fee of money. 

535
00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:00,640
Yeah. 
You know this cannot be true. 

536
00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:02,880
It it's it's so profound. 
It cannot be true. 

537
00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:05,000
It's so simple. 
It cannot be true. 

538
00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:09,480
You know why would it be true? 
I'm usually always abused, you 

539
00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:11,840
know subconsciously in the 
system that I participate like 

540
00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:15,600
and you know and and so I love 
that you said that because 

541
00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:18,840
that's what I see a lot and I 
had the same, right. 

542
00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:22,760
I mean this is what is been 
created and and I think it's 

543
00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:27,800
really freeing once you're aware
of it, that all the other people

544
00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:31,120
that you are supposed to listen 
to are just other people. 

545
00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:34,360
They are not smarter than you. 
They are like it's just other 

546
00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:37,160
people trying to figure out 
their life as well, right. 

547
00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:42,040
And so when someone says 
something, it is up to you 

548
00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:47,480
whether you listen to it or 
follow it or not, right? 

549
00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:51,120
It's not, it's always your 
choice, but also always your 

550
00:32:51,120 --> 00:32:55,280
fault if you do right. 
And I think what is so 

551
00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:59,520
contradictory in Bitcoin is that
you can actually consciously 

552
00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:03,720
decide do I adopt this or not. 
And you can find all the 

553
00:33:03,720 --> 00:33:06,920
information you need to also 
make that conscious decision. 

554
00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:11,920
And with everything else in the 
world, especially fueled by Fiat

555
00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:15,040
money system that is just 
obscured, it's vague. 

556
00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:20,240
It's very hard to really make an
objective decision. 

557
00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:22,800
And that's also why it's so hard
to understand that that could 

558
00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:28,520
actually be possible, I think. 
Yeah, and for for for decades 

559
00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:32,360
now, even centuries, you just 
had to trust. 

560
00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:36,400
You just had to trust these 
leaders, right? 

561
00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:40,760
When it comes to money or these 
institutions may be better, the 

562
00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:44,240
institutions, these leaders, 
these small committees like the 

563
00:33:44,240 --> 00:33:47,440
central bank and the bank where 
you hold your money, you have to

564
00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:52,400
always trust them. 
And so it's clear that we it. 

565
00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:57,920
This is a very hard switch to do
from thinking, OK, money. 

566
00:33:58,160 --> 00:34:02,720
What makes money valuable is the
trust that we put into the into 

567
00:34:02,720 --> 00:34:08,560
the institution that that 
manages it to know that trust 

568
00:34:08,560 --> 00:34:14,520
comes from the verifiable, you 
know, foundations, principles of

569
00:34:14,520 --> 00:34:19,360
the protocol, that it works as 
post, that it is well designed 

570
00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:22,840
and it has these mathematical 
and cryptographical and game 

571
00:34:22,880 --> 00:34:27,080
theoretical, you know principles
that just work together. 

572
00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:32,520
But this is, this is very hard 
to trust something invisible, 

573
00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:35,840
untouchable, and it's much 
easier to trust a group of 

574
00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:39,679
people, and especially because 
we were wired like this for 

575
00:34:39,679 --> 00:34:42,880
generations and generations and 
generations, even though these 

576
00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:46,800
people also sooner or later 
always are being corrupted. 

577
00:34:47,199 --> 00:34:50,600
So they're not trustable at all.
For example, we always would 

578
00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:56,040
trust, if we have, you know, 
Fiat money, that this is backed 

579
00:34:56,040 --> 00:34:59,040
by gold. 
Well, not anymore since the 70s.

580
00:34:59,040 --> 00:35:04,040
And we just still now trust that
they don't print too much, which

581
00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:07,440
they do, they hyper inflate a 
lot of currencies. 

582
00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:09,560
But we there there was no other 
alternative. 

583
00:35:09,560 --> 00:35:11,040
We just had to trust these 
people. 

584
00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:17,480
We just had to hope in the the 
the, the, the good character of 

585
00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:19,400
these people or the good faith 
of these people. 

586
00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:22,520
For us there was no choice. 
Now there is a choice, but it's 

587
00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:25,360
very hard to, to rewire our 
brains, right? 

588
00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:27,560
And this will maybe take 
generations. 

589
00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:32,320
And it's only a few people who 
are very open I think to to 

590
00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:35,640
innovations and to to new 
paradigms and that are 

591
00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:39,680
questioning a lot that are 
questioning things like religion

592
00:35:39,680 --> 00:35:43,760
or or or governments or 
institutions or things like Fiat

593
00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:45,840
money or or nation states or 
whatever. 

594
00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:48,640
Like these very basic things 
that we grew up with. 

595
00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:51,880
There are there is a small 
handful of people who are 

596
00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:55,240
questioning these things, and I 
think these are the same people 

597
00:35:55,240 --> 00:35:57,120
that are now starting to adopt 
Bitcoin. 

598
00:35:57,600 --> 00:36:00,960
For the rest, it might take 
decades or even generations to 

599
00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:03,680
catch up. 
Yeah, and of course it's also 

600
00:36:03,680 --> 00:36:05,760
really hard. 
Because once you realize this, 

601
00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:09,680
you also realize, oh wow, I 
really have to take care of 

602
00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:12,000
myself. 
You know, like you take on. 

603
00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:17,800
Once you realize that you like 
outsourced responsibility over 

604
00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:22,520
your life, then once you take 
that responsibility it is a lot.

605
00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:27,120
And and I think that is one also
one of the biggest things people

606
00:36:27,120 --> 00:36:33,200
need to integrate and it takes a
long time and it's not something

607
00:36:33,200 --> 00:36:37,320
that is fun to do right. 
Like it's easier to just stay 

608
00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:40,960
where you are and that's I 
don't, I don't think a lot of 

609
00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:43,480
people like the comparison to 
like Matrix movie. 

610
00:36:43,480 --> 00:36:48,160
But it is that like once you 
know and you have the choice 

611
00:36:49,120 --> 00:36:55,520
then life becomes pretty hard 
actually in the choice stage 

612
00:36:55,720 --> 00:36:59,880
right. 
And but still I I believe like 

613
00:36:59,880 --> 00:37:02,320
you know if you take the blue 
pill like in the Matrix and you 

614
00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:05,120
stay in the Matrix you want to 
still eat the steak right from 

615
00:37:05,120 --> 00:37:06,600
the movie. 
Like I still want to eat steak. 

616
00:37:08,200 --> 00:37:14,040
I eventually that will hit you. 
I I because you know that 

617
00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:15,960
there's an alternative choice 
right. 

618
00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:21,800
You can be subconsciously just 
active in the blue pill type 

619
00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:24,440
world, but then nothing bothers 
you. 

620
00:37:24,440 --> 00:37:27,080
But once you know that there's 
another thing that you can 

621
00:37:27,080 --> 00:37:30,760
actually choose, then it will 
bother you If you ignore that 

622
00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:32,880
eventually, I think. 
And then maybe that's also why 

623
00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:36,720
sometimes people are such harsh 
critics, right? 

624
00:37:36,720 --> 00:37:40,000
Like, sometimes I get replies on
Twitter or I think like, wow, 

625
00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:41,480
like, really? 
Did this? 

626
00:37:41,480 --> 00:37:43,560
Did my fault trigger you? 
Wow. 

627
00:37:43,560 --> 00:37:46,320
OK that's that's fascinating. 
Right? 

628
00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:49,920
Like, I don't know. 
Like that I I think that's it. 

629
00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:53,000
I think that's it's you know 
that that that is just hard and 

630
00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:56,840
and that's also why we have to 
you know I think share also our 

631
00:37:56,840 --> 00:38:00,760
own stories because maybe you 
know even if we now reach like 

632
00:38:00,760 --> 00:38:04,360
one person who now starts 
thinking about that right. 

633
00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:09,080
I think that would be awesome 
already if we could achieve 

634
00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:10,120
that. 
Yeah, definitely. 

635
00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:14,280
And I think people will on their
own, they will find their path, 

636
00:38:14,560 --> 00:38:19,400
some not, so some will always be
skeptic and passive about it. 

637
00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:22,120
That's fine. 
But more and more people, 

638
00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:26,920
especially also in the coming 
like younger generations, more 

639
00:38:26,920 --> 00:38:28,960
and more of them will do the 
hard work. 

640
00:38:28,960 --> 00:38:31,160
And it is hard work. 
There's some homework to do. 

641
00:38:31,160 --> 00:38:33,960
On 1st you need to understand 
the problem, then you need to 

642
00:38:33,960 --> 00:38:37,280
understand the solution Bitcoin.
And then you need to understand 

643
00:38:37,280 --> 00:38:40,560
how to really hold it. 
What what like what? 

644
00:38:40,560 --> 00:38:42,240
How does it make sense to buy 
it? 

645
00:38:42,240 --> 00:38:45,760
It's not trading, it's not like 
it's not even investing, it's 

646
00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:48,640
more like saving. 
So yes, you should do regular 

647
00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:52,200
investment like dollar cost 
averaging. 

648
00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:56,560
You should not freak out when 
the price tips 2030%. 

649
00:38:56,560 --> 00:38:59,640
It's just, you know, it's just a
short term volatility. 

650
00:38:59,920 --> 00:39:03,400
You need to zoom out and look at
it on a long term perspective. 

651
00:39:03,680 --> 00:39:06,200
How do you hold it? 
Especially once you have quite 

652
00:39:06,200 --> 00:39:11,320
some funds, then don't use a 
custody solution because there's

653
00:39:11,360 --> 00:39:14,600
a there's a centralization and 
the counterparty risk. 

654
00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:18,080
You need to take it under your 
control, You manage your private

655
00:39:18,080 --> 00:39:22,040
key and then how to do this, you
know, set up a hardware wallet, 

656
00:39:22,040 --> 00:39:25,400
et cetera. 
This is a lot of this 

657
00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:27,840
responsibility is a lot. 
I mean, there's a lot of 

658
00:39:27,840 --> 00:39:30,640
homework to do that you don't 
really need to do today. 

659
00:39:30,640 --> 00:39:33,240
If you just go to work and you 
get some Fiat money in your bank

660
00:39:33,240 --> 00:39:35,600
account, you can spend it with 
your credit card and it's fine 

661
00:39:36,320 --> 00:39:38,960
this is all things. 
But but as you said before I 

662
00:39:38,960 --> 00:39:43,160
think it's worth to do this work
and just out of cue curiosity 

663
00:39:43,560 --> 00:39:46,280
and just because of the network 
effect and more and more people 

664
00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:49,360
adopting and talking about it to
other people and it's more in 

665
00:39:49,360 --> 00:39:54,040
the media and it's just the the 
benefits are are are spread 

666
00:39:54,080 --> 00:39:57,600
distributed to more and more 
people by also influential 

667
00:39:57,600 --> 00:40:00,480
people like Larry Fink now 
etcetera and all these big 

668
00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:04,200
newspapers Bloomberg Financial 
Times, there are always you know

669
00:40:04,200 --> 00:40:08,640
writing about it in regular. 
Basis it it it will come 

670
00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:12,560
naturally that more and more 
people take the orange pill, 

671
00:40:13,120 --> 00:40:17,240
even though it's a bit hard. 
And then that's how we will end 

672
00:40:17,240 --> 00:40:19,600
up with a dominant new financial
system. 

673
00:40:19,600 --> 00:40:22,640
But it takes time. 
Again, it will take decades or 

674
00:40:22,640 --> 00:40:25,680
even generations for for the 
majority of people to catch up. 

675
00:40:26,440 --> 00:40:29,560
Yeah, yeah. 
And So what? 

676
00:40:29,560 --> 00:40:33,920
What is like the? 
What is like the the main 

677
00:40:34,320 --> 00:40:37,800
misunderstanding about Bitcoin 
that that you would wish to 

678
00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:40,520
debunk if you had the chance? 
Like, what's the most common 

679
00:40:40,520 --> 00:40:42,880
thing you hear that you think 
you know People should 

680
00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:45,520
understand? 
It's not true. 

681
00:40:47,440 --> 00:40:53,000
That's a good point. 
I think it's still that the 

682
00:40:53,080 --> 00:40:57,440
energy consumption is still a 
very big thing that people use 

683
00:40:57,440 --> 00:41:01,280
people who don't understand that
because also it it sounds scary 

684
00:41:01,280 --> 00:41:08,040
at the beginning like how much 
energy Bitcoin uses and people 

685
00:41:08,040 --> 00:41:12,200
just don't know that most of the
energy that it uses is basically

686
00:41:12,200 --> 00:41:17,440
coming from sustainable sources.
And the way how Bitcoin mining 

687
00:41:17,640 --> 00:41:23,040
works is that they don't take 
away energy from like others 

688
00:41:23,040 --> 00:41:26,080
like not. 
It's not that because Bitcoin 

689
00:41:26,080 --> 00:41:28,920
uses a lot of energy, is that 
all the people in your country 

690
00:41:28,920 --> 00:41:34,960
now pay more for their for their
electricity bills. 

691
00:41:35,720 --> 00:41:39,680
Because you know, you can be as 
a minor, you can be somewhere 

692
00:41:39,680 --> 00:41:44,520
else, you can be wherever you 
want, where there is excess and 

693
00:41:44,520 --> 00:41:47,400
cheap energy you actually want 
to be, where there is cheap 

694
00:41:47,400 --> 00:41:49,760
energy that is not otherwise 
being used. 

695
00:41:50,080 --> 00:41:54,720
Because then your model becomes 
more economically and 

696
00:41:54,720 --> 00:42:00,000
financially, you know, viable. 
And that actually there are 

697
00:42:00,000 --> 00:42:05,960
studies that show that already 
today 70 to 80% of the energy 

698
00:42:05,960 --> 00:42:11,880
usage from Bitcoin miners are 
coming from sustainable sources 

699
00:42:11,880 --> 00:42:14,560
and that the trend is positive. 
So in the next 10 years, we 

700
00:42:14,560 --> 00:42:20,240
actually even assumed that there
will be 90% or more. 

701
00:42:21,280 --> 00:42:24,760
And so that it is not an 
environmental threat that there 

702
00:42:24,760 --> 00:42:30,840
are even ways how ways to think 
about how it will lead to a more

703
00:42:30,840 --> 00:42:35,680
sustainable future because the 
energy used like flaring for 

704
00:42:35,680 --> 00:42:39,360
example can be reduced etcetera.
And that this is all not 

705
00:42:39,360 --> 00:42:43,800
happening by coincidence but by 
design. 

706
00:42:44,360 --> 00:42:47,520
This is, this has been designed 
like this from the beginning and

707
00:42:47,520 --> 00:42:51,240
has been thought through. 
It's a really systematically the

708
00:42:51,240 --> 00:42:56,040
design choices that have been 
made is so that it will be from 

709
00:42:56,040 --> 00:43:00,040
an energy consumption and 
sustainability point of view, 

710
00:43:00,440 --> 00:43:03,960
very positive for the world. 
And it's actually also when you 

711
00:43:03,960 --> 00:43:09,040
compare it to other financial 
systems like gold or physical 

712
00:43:09,040 --> 00:43:12,080
Fiat money or digital Fiat money
like the banking system, it is 

713
00:43:12,080 --> 00:43:16,960
superior, it's using less energy
and it loses much, it uses much 

714
00:43:16,960 --> 00:43:20,080
more sustainable energy. 
So I think this whole energy 

715
00:43:20,080 --> 00:43:23,400
topic is being debunked very 
well. 

716
00:43:23,400 --> 00:43:27,600
There are great pieces of 
content out there, like Len 

717
00:43:27,600 --> 00:43:30,760
Alden's article for example. 
It's just wow about it. 

718
00:43:32,480 --> 00:43:36,720
But also there are many studies,
this Oxford study for example, 

719
00:43:36,720 --> 00:43:40,160
or many other studies that 
actually and articles that 

720
00:43:40,160 --> 00:43:42,800
debunk it. 
But the problem is just still 

721
00:43:42,800 --> 00:43:46,960
people don't go that deep. 
They just see or hear somewhere 

722
00:43:46,960 --> 00:43:50,960
that how much energy Bitcoin is 
using and they also think in it,

723
00:43:51,200 --> 00:43:54,520
how can it scale? 
Like how can Bitcoin become 10X 

724
00:43:54,520 --> 00:43:57,560
or 100X from now and scale to 
the whole world and then it will

725
00:43:57,880 --> 00:44:01,520
use 10X or 100X more energy. 
They don't understand that 

726
00:44:01,520 --> 00:44:04,960
that's not how it works. 
Not it's not like the more 

727
00:44:04,960 --> 00:44:06,760
transactions the more energy is 
being used. 

728
00:44:07,160 --> 00:44:09,760
But it's just, yeah, it's it's 
just a problem of of 

729
00:44:09,760 --> 00:44:11,960
understanding it. 
But but the same you have in 

730
00:44:11,960 --> 00:44:14,400
different other industries like 
electric cars for example. 

731
00:44:14,400 --> 00:44:18,000
There's still a lot of people 
that say you know electric cars 

732
00:44:18,000 --> 00:44:22,000
with their lithium batteries and
etcetera in the end or worse for

733
00:44:22,000 --> 00:44:24,800
the environment and not better. 
There will always be these 

734
00:44:24,800 --> 00:44:27,440
debates. 
I think that's why it's it's 

735
00:44:27,440 --> 00:44:30,360
this is hard. 
This is never going to be 100% 

736
00:44:30,880 --> 00:44:34,480
debunked, or it's at least will 
take a very long time. 

737
00:44:34,480 --> 00:44:37,000
That's I think that's why it is 
still one of the biggest 

738
00:44:37,000 --> 00:44:39,160
problems of the Piston 
community. 

739
00:44:39,960 --> 00:44:44,360
I think people got thought in 
some way that using energy is 

740
00:44:44,360 --> 00:44:47,560
bad where, you know, if you're 
listening or watching this, look

741
00:44:47,560 --> 00:44:51,600
around you in wherever you are, 
like everything you see from the

742
00:44:51,600 --> 00:44:57,840
trees to I see the books to my, 
you know, glasses here or you 

743
00:44:57,840 --> 00:45:00,560
know, the wood on the floor, 
everything outside the 

744
00:45:00,560 --> 00:45:03,840
buildings, like everything takes
energy to create or maintain. 

745
00:45:03,840 --> 00:45:09,880
So the usage of energy is not 
the argument, it's about where, 

746
00:45:10,240 --> 00:45:13,720
where does it come from. 
And I think you make a great 

747
00:45:13,720 --> 00:45:17,960
point about, you know, the 
entire incentive for the 

748
00:45:17,960 --> 00:45:21,520
business model of minors is that
you find the cheapest energy. 

749
00:45:21,520 --> 00:45:25,520
And cheapest energy is energy 
that is created but not used. 

750
00:45:26,360 --> 00:45:30,600
So it's excess energy or it's 
wasted energy or it's actually 

751
00:45:30,600 --> 00:45:34,160
capturing energy in places where
it is not captured already. 

752
00:45:34,160 --> 00:45:37,760
So also wasted, right, If 
there's a great company called 

753
00:45:37,760 --> 00:45:42,760
Gritless who goes to African 
villages who live like on the 

754
00:45:42,760 --> 00:45:46,880
edge of a waterfall, which is 
basically also wasted energy, 

755
00:45:46,960 --> 00:45:50,560
right, that hydro energy there. 
And so they capture that energy 

756
00:45:50,800 --> 00:45:55,840
and they give energy to the 
village so the people can cook 

757
00:45:55,880 --> 00:45:59,240
and store their food and all the
all these things. 

758
00:45:59,880 --> 00:46:03,000
And that is the entire incentive
around the business model. 

759
00:46:03,000 --> 00:46:05,760
And so I agree, again, this is 
kind of like this nihilistic 

760
00:46:05,760 --> 00:46:09,600
thing like, oh, I think energy 
usage is bad energy. 

761
00:46:09,600 --> 00:46:11,640
Energy usage should go down, 
right. 

762
00:46:11,640 --> 00:46:12,840
I think that's what people 
think. 

763
00:46:12,840 --> 00:46:16,960
But yeah, Interesting good. 
Point that's what we are taught 

764
00:46:17,240 --> 00:46:22,720
and we always try to use our old
frameworks to evaluate this new 

765
00:46:22,720 --> 00:46:27,080
thing and and if it doesn't work
then we think, OK, it's not 

766
00:46:27,080 --> 00:46:28,720
going to, it's not going to 
happen. 

767
00:46:29,280 --> 00:46:32,800
And I'm also wondering, like, 
how are these people looking at 

768
00:46:32,800 --> 00:46:38,200
something that that has been so 
successful in the last 15 years 

769
00:46:38,560 --> 00:46:42,040
and it is so huge now? 
Like there's more than the 

770
00:46:42,040 --> 00:46:43,680
market cap of Bitcoins. 
More. 

771
00:46:43,680 --> 00:46:47,200
Much more than a billion. 
Yeah, billion dollars. 

772
00:46:47,200 --> 00:46:48,440
Trillion. 
Trillion. 

773
00:46:48,440 --> 00:46:49,400
Trillion. 
Billion Trillion. 

774
00:46:49,560 --> 00:46:51,720
Trillion. 
Sorry, I always because in 

775
00:46:51,720 --> 00:46:53,280
Switzerland in like, yeah. 
I know. 

776
00:46:53,440 --> 00:46:54,000
Same here. 
Sorry. 

777
00:46:54,200 --> 00:46:55,880
Yeah, it's much more than one 
trillion. 

778
00:46:56,240 --> 00:46:59,040
It's huge. 
And they still so. 

779
00:46:59,080 --> 00:47:00,480
It's not nothing, right? 
It's. 

780
00:47:01,280 --> 00:47:04,240
Nothing. 
And they still think like as an 

781
00:47:04,240 --> 00:47:07,560
ordinary person. 
They still think, OK, I know 

782
00:47:07,560 --> 00:47:10,640
something that all of these 
people don't know and I know 

783
00:47:10,640 --> 00:47:13,560
it's gonna crash, like because 
it uses so much engine. 

784
00:47:14,200 --> 00:47:15,560
Yeah, that's something I don't 
understand. 

785
00:47:15,920 --> 00:47:20,360
Yeah, but exactly like you know,
I think you got this from Jeff 

786
00:47:20,360 --> 00:47:22,800
Booth as well, right? 
Like he's an investor in your 

787
00:47:22,800 --> 00:47:26,360
company, so you know him well it
it's so interesting, right. 

788
00:47:26,360 --> 00:47:31,240
If you look at a new system from
an old system and then just 

789
00:47:31,240 --> 00:47:34,480
decide to not that it's not 
going to work. 

790
00:47:34,880 --> 00:47:40,080
What I find interesting is that 
underlying you agree that the 

791
00:47:40,080 --> 00:47:43,880
system from which you are 
looking actually works fine. 

792
00:47:44,040 --> 00:47:48,040
It has no flaws, right? 
Because if you use that as the 

793
00:47:48,040 --> 00:47:51,440
framework you know, or or or the
glasses you put on to look at, 

794
00:47:51,440 --> 00:47:55,480
you know, something new, then 
you assume that it's perfect, 

795
00:47:56,800 --> 00:47:59,480
that that's why you dismiss 
something something else, right?

796
00:47:59,480 --> 00:48:03,560
Because if you understood the 
imperfections of, you know, your

797
00:48:03,760 --> 00:48:07,120
your current system, then you 
would also be open to see like 

798
00:48:07,440 --> 00:48:11,040
what oh what could this new 
system do for to solve those 

799
00:48:11,040 --> 00:48:15,120
imperfections, right. 
So I think that ties back to, 

800
00:48:15,120 --> 00:48:17,360
you know, people not 
understanding that there is a 

801
00:48:17,360 --> 00:48:19,680
problem. 
And I mean, for many people, to 

802
00:48:19,680 --> 00:48:22,960
be fair, it does work somehow 
like in, in, in. 

803
00:48:23,040 --> 00:48:25,960
And these are usually the ones 
that exactly are the biggest 

804
00:48:25,960 --> 00:48:28,760
critics of the new system. 
Because hey, the old system 

805
00:48:28,760 --> 00:48:33,760
works very well for for me. 
If I'm a Swiss banker and that 

806
00:48:33,760 --> 00:48:37,560
works at UBS, I have some middle
management position in the UBS. 

807
00:48:37,560 --> 00:48:42,640
I don't really have to work that
much, but I earn shit tons of 

808
00:48:42,640 --> 00:48:46,640
Fiat money that is inflating 
only at a low rate in 

809
00:48:46,640 --> 00:48:50,480
Switzerland. 
And that I can invest in stocks 

810
00:48:50,520 --> 00:48:56,360
that usually beat inflation on 
an average yearly basis, at 

811
00:48:56,360 --> 00:49:00,120
least if I hold them for more 
than maybe five years or more 

812
00:49:00,840 --> 00:49:03,640
than you know. 
And then I have credit cards 

813
00:49:03,880 --> 00:49:07,520
that are quite cheap and easy to
use everywhere in the world and 

814
00:49:07,720 --> 00:49:12,120
everything is perfect. 
Why, Why would I even be open to

815
00:49:12,160 --> 00:49:15,320
a new system? 
And these are also the people, 

816
00:49:15,320 --> 00:49:17,880
usually they don't travel too 
much, you know, they're just 

817
00:49:17,880 --> 00:49:20,400
happy. 
They can also afford a house and

818
00:49:20,400 --> 00:49:25,440
the car they they maybe travel a
little bit, but never in, in, in

819
00:49:25,440 --> 00:49:30,000
countries where you know, where 
where there's definitely other 

820
00:49:30,120 --> 00:49:33,280
situations and conditions, 
living conditions, etcetera. 

821
00:49:33,600 --> 00:49:36,280
And they also don't see that 
they are in a very small bubble.

822
00:49:36,720 --> 00:49:38,920
You know, Switzerland, for 
example, is one of the one of 

823
00:49:38,920 --> 00:49:41,040
the richest countries in the 
world. 

824
00:49:41,040 --> 00:49:45,480
So even if you are at the lower 
end, you're still very much OK 

825
00:49:45,960 --> 00:49:48,880
things still work for you. 
And you don't see the problems 

826
00:49:48,880 --> 00:49:52,800
that actually more than half of 
the people in the world have and

827
00:49:52,800 --> 00:49:55,880
how Bitcoin could also be a 
solution for them. 

828
00:49:56,080 --> 00:50:00,280
So yeah, only if you're really 
open and questioning things, you

829
00:50:00,280 --> 00:50:05,080
can come from such a privileged 
position and and understand 

830
00:50:05,440 --> 00:50:07,920
Bitcoin. 
Otherwise it will come more from

831
00:50:08,480 --> 00:50:10,800
other countries that are 
struggling more. 

832
00:50:11,400 --> 00:50:15,160
Yeah, so let's talk about your 
company Relay. 

833
00:50:15,840 --> 00:50:19,040
Can you tell me about it? 
And also how you decided to 

834
00:50:19,040 --> 00:50:21,000
start a company in a Bitcoin 
space. 

835
00:50:21,000 --> 00:50:23,960
You said I'm going to dedicate 
my, you know, my life to 

836
00:50:23,960 --> 00:50:26,920
Bitcoin. 
I think I have the same I I 

837
00:50:26,920 --> 00:50:29,920
didn't start a company yet in 
it, but you did what? 

838
00:50:30,560 --> 00:50:33,360
How? 
How did that start and like what

839
00:50:33,360 --> 00:50:34,560
do you do? 
How is it going? 

840
00:50:35,200 --> 00:50:38,040
I first started with the 
fascination and the passion. 

841
00:50:38,040 --> 00:50:42,920
As I said before, in 2015 I I 
kind of learned about Bitcoin 

842
00:50:42,960 --> 00:50:47,880
and the subsequent 2-3 years I 
really delved into it and really

843
00:50:47,880 --> 00:50:52,400
understand the profound 
development that it it will have

844
00:50:53,240 --> 00:50:56,160
and that's how great it is. 
And so first started with this 

845
00:50:56,160 --> 00:51:00,120
passion and then second with an 
idea that I had or an 

846
00:51:00,120 --> 00:51:03,840
opportunity I saw in the market.
So I saw that Okay more and more

847
00:51:03,840 --> 00:51:06,920
people are interested in this 
topic, Bitcoin. 

848
00:51:06,920 --> 00:51:09,720
They want to buy some Bitcoin, 
usually small amounts and then 

849
00:51:09,720 --> 00:51:12,120
once they have understood, 
usually they want to buy us a 

850
00:51:12,120 --> 00:51:14,440
regular amount like weekly or 
monthly. 

851
00:51:15,600 --> 00:51:18,800
But it should be super easy 
because most of them just are, 

852
00:51:18,800 --> 00:51:22,960
you know, they they they are not
tech or finance geeks. 

853
00:51:23,000 --> 00:51:26,000
They just want to have something
that is, you know, works on 

854
00:51:26,000 --> 00:51:28,320
their phone with a couple of 
clicks, takes a couple of 

855
00:51:28,320 --> 00:51:30,440
minutes. 
They don't like to upload 

856
00:51:30,440 --> 00:51:33,720
documents somewhere, They don't 
like to look at charts or use 

857
00:51:34,120 --> 00:51:37,080
stop loss or market orders limit
or whatever. 

858
00:51:37,440 --> 00:51:40,280
You know, they're not traders. 
They just want to have a quick 

859
00:51:40,280 --> 00:51:44,760
and dirty, simple, user friendly
and nicely designed solution on 

860
00:51:44,760 --> 00:51:48,360
their phone where they can buy 
Bitcoin if necessary, sell 

861
00:51:48,360 --> 00:51:52,400
Bitcoin, set up savings plan and
then send and receive and hold 

862
00:51:52,400 --> 00:51:55,280
their Bitcoin on their own all 
in one place. 

863
00:51:56,200 --> 00:52:00,160
And so that's how I had this 
idea or saw this opportunity. 

864
00:52:00,640 --> 00:52:05,800
And then I started to look for 
Co founders and other people 

865
00:52:05,800 --> 00:52:07,760
that are supporting me like 
investors. 

866
00:52:07,760 --> 00:52:10,440
And because I was still very 
young, I was broke. 

867
00:52:11,040 --> 00:52:15,480
I didn't really have the traits 
of a perfect like startup 

868
00:52:15,480 --> 00:52:17,720
entrepreneur at all. 
I was also another technique. 

869
00:52:17,720 --> 00:52:21,000
I didn't come from technology. 
I didn't study computer science 

870
00:52:21,000 --> 00:52:22,800
or anything else. 
I didn't understand shit, you 

871
00:52:22,800 --> 00:52:25,560
know, I didn't understand 
anything about tech or 

872
00:52:25,560 --> 00:52:29,960
entrepreneurship or any of these
important fundraisings or 

873
00:52:30,040 --> 00:52:31,800
something. 
I didn't know shit about legal 

874
00:52:31,800 --> 00:52:34,200
compliance, etcetera. 
This is all the things that I am

875
00:52:34,200 --> 00:52:37,360
learning on the way. 
But yeah, I think I had this 

876
00:52:37,360 --> 00:52:40,640
passion and an idea and saw an 
opportunity. 

877
00:52:40,960 --> 00:52:45,360
And yeah, and then more and more
people started kind of following

878
00:52:45,360 --> 00:52:49,920
my my mission and help help 
helping me to bring this vision 

879
00:52:49,920 --> 00:52:54,600
into reality. 
And that's then how we ended up 

880
00:52:55,760 --> 00:52:59,560
managing to release a first 
version in the app stores of 

881
00:52:59,560 --> 00:53:02,880
this app that we that we 
envisioned This was in summer 

882
00:53:02,880 --> 00:53:07,000
2020. 
So soon we will be 4 years old 

883
00:53:07,000 --> 00:53:08,640
or at least four years on the 
market. 

884
00:53:09,320 --> 00:53:12,400
And yeah, it was a wild ride, a 
lot of ups and downs. 

885
00:53:12,400 --> 00:53:17,080
But if if you look at it from a 
bit of an outside perspective 

886
00:53:17,080 --> 00:53:20,600
now and zoom out, these four 
years look like a pretty, pretty

887
00:53:20,600 --> 00:53:24,000
nice growth journey and I'm 
still really excited about it. 

888
00:53:24,800 --> 00:53:27,360
Awesome, man. 
Can you share a bit perhaps 

889
00:53:27,360 --> 00:53:31,040
about like what what you see 
with regards to, you know you're

890
00:53:31,040 --> 00:53:34,440
focused on Europe of course like
what what is the adoption like 

891
00:53:34,440 --> 00:53:37,400
in Europe or what are like the 
trends you are seeing with 

892
00:53:37,440 --> 00:53:42,960
regards to who is buying Bitcoin
and and how that is going? 

893
00:53:43,800 --> 00:53:48,360
I think still very early, so 
again probably depending on the 

894
00:53:48,360 --> 00:53:53,080
country in Europe between 10 and
Max 20%, but more on the 10% 

895
00:53:53,080 --> 00:53:57,120
range of adoption rate. 
People that really have Bitcoin,

896
00:53:57,120 --> 00:54:00,680
many of them also still have it 
as like speculation and you 

897
00:54:00,680 --> 00:54:04,080
know, they just try to maybe 
sell it at a later point to make

898
00:54:04,080 --> 00:54:10,760
more Fiat though it's really, 
really believers and like people

899
00:54:10,760 --> 00:54:12,880
that are committed and 
passionate about Bitcoin. 

900
00:54:12,880 --> 00:54:15,400
It's only a very small 
percentage amount. 

901
00:54:15,400 --> 00:54:20,840
I think we see that mostly 
millennials are buying Bitcoin 

902
00:54:20,840 --> 00:54:24,400
and understanding, understanding
and therefore buying Bitcoin. 

903
00:54:24,720 --> 00:54:28,520
So around half of our users are 
actually millennials between 20 

904
00:54:28,520 --> 00:54:34,240
and 35 ish also younger, even 
younger ones and then the older 

905
00:54:34,720 --> 00:54:38,400
the less also most of them are 
male. 

906
00:54:38,560 --> 00:54:45,040
So unfortunately I think only 
like 15% of our customers are 

907
00:54:45,160 --> 00:54:50,040
women, 85% are men. 
So young men basically is the 

908
00:54:50,040 --> 00:54:54,520
dominant demographic. 
This probably has to do with we 

909
00:54:54,520 --> 00:54:58,800
are a Fintech in the end a bit. 
Bitcoin can be also probably 

910
00:54:58,800 --> 00:55:02,120
categorized as Fintech and 
finance. 

911
00:55:02,320 --> 00:55:07,520
Both finance and technology are 
known as being male dominant 

912
00:55:07,640 --> 00:55:09,360
fields. 
And so this is the intersection 

913
00:55:09,440 --> 00:55:11,320
of these two. 
So obviously there's not a lot 

914
00:55:11,320 --> 00:55:15,600
of women unfortunately, but I 
hope this this trend will go 

915
00:55:15,600 --> 00:55:17,360
into the other direction a 
little bit as well. 

916
00:55:18,040 --> 00:55:21,120
Yeah, that's kind of what I what
I see from a regulatory point of

917
00:55:21,120 --> 00:55:23,440
view. 
There are quite some 

918
00:55:23,440 --> 00:55:26,760
developments. 
It is becoming more regulated, 

919
00:55:27,360 --> 00:55:31,160
It has pros and cons. 
There's this Mika regulation 

920
00:55:31,160 --> 00:55:37,600
that is now basically unifying 
the EU approach where most of 

921
00:55:37,600 --> 00:55:40,520
the European countries are in 
this EU, the European Union. 

922
00:55:42,400 --> 00:55:47,520
This is unified now so there's a
legal compliance framework for 

923
00:55:47,520 --> 00:55:50,720
Bitcoin and other 
cryptocurrencies has quite 

924
00:55:50,720 --> 00:55:53,200
restrictive that's maybe on the 
con side. 

925
00:55:53,200 --> 00:55:55,760
So it's harder to do business, 
it's more expensive to do 

926
00:55:55,760 --> 00:56:01,760
business and it's also less easy
to use for for for people the 

927
00:56:01,760 --> 00:56:04,400
services the some of them will 
will struggle a lot, some 

928
00:56:04,400 --> 00:56:06,840
companies will struggle a lot. 
So also depends on how you're 

929
00:56:06,840 --> 00:56:11,880
designed like custodial, non 
custodial, good con only versus 

930
00:56:11,880 --> 00:56:14,960
other cryptos etcetera. 
But even if you make the rent 

931
00:56:14,960 --> 00:56:18,360
centros, it's going to be, it's 
going to make our life harder. 

932
00:56:19,200 --> 00:56:25,000
But on the other hand, it also 
helps to give legitimacy and 

933
00:56:25,000 --> 00:56:29,800
credibility to this, to this new
technology, to Bitcoin. 

934
00:56:29,800 --> 00:56:33,200
And more and more people will 
start trusting and therefore 

935
00:56:33,200 --> 00:56:36,160
investing in it if it is 
regulated, especially also 

936
00:56:36,160 --> 00:56:40,520
institutions, companies, take 
funds, hedge funds, whatever. 

937
00:56:41,720 --> 00:56:45,560
So, yeah, this is kind of what 
what maybe I see in a nutshell 

938
00:56:45,560 --> 00:56:50,640
in in Europe in in general, it 
is going into the right 

939
00:56:50,640 --> 00:56:54,800
direction with a lot of up and 
downs, but I think we will see 

940
00:56:54,840 --> 00:56:58,600
much more adoption in the next 
five years in Europe that's 

941
00:56:58,600 --> 00:57:00,000
that's for sure. 
Yeah. 

942
00:57:00,440 --> 00:57:05,200
So how do you see the future of 
Bitcoin in, well, Switzerland or

943
00:57:05,200 --> 00:57:09,680
broader EU with with like all 
this regulation that you know is

944
00:57:09,680 --> 00:57:12,480
introduced by all these pure 
technocrats. 

945
00:57:12,480 --> 00:57:17,600
It's so interesting, interesting
to see like or or the, you know,

946
00:57:17,600 --> 00:57:21,040
there's some ideas about things 
they want to introduce about 

947
00:57:21,040 --> 00:57:23,760
banning proof of work which is 
based on you know all these 

948
00:57:23,760 --> 00:57:29,880
flawed energy arguments. 
So, so like what's what, what? 

949
00:57:30,160 --> 00:57:32,200
How do you see the future? 
What do you think about it? 

950
00:57:33,120 --> 00:57:35,760
I think there will be more 
regulation, that's clear. 

951
00:57:35,960 --> 00:57:39,120
There will be always more 
regulation with such a financial

952
00:57:39,120 --> 00:57:43,000
innovation like that. 
Therefore there will be less 

953
00:57:43,000 --> 00:57:45,800
companies unfortunately, there 
will be less innovation 

954
00:57:45,960 --> 00:57:49,480
unfortunately. 
So the window for new companies 

955
00:57:49,480 --> 00:57:52,520
is, is a bit closing. 
I mean there will be new ones, 

956
00:57:52,520 --> 00:57:57,400
but less because it's going to 
be harder as a new early stage 

957
00:57:57,640 --> 00:58:02,040
company with not a lot of track 
record, not a lot of human and 

958
00:58:02,040 --> 00:58:04,520
financial resources. 
It will be hard to enter this 

959
00:58:04,720 --> 00:58:06,840
because of the regulation that's
that's one. 

960
00:58:07,080 --> 00:58:10,920
So less new entrance and then 
also less of the existing ones 

961
00:58:10,920 --> 00:58:15,120
because the, the small ones, the
bootstrapped ones, they will 

962
00:58:15,120 --> 00:58:20,200
have a very hard time to to 
comply with all these regulatory

963
00:58:20,200 --> 00:58:23,280
requirements etcetera. 
It's so difficult, so expensive.

964
00:58:23,400 --> 00:58:27,320
So it's a lot of effort. 
So there will be less in like 

965
00:58:27,360 --> 00:58:30,760
let's say in five years, there 
will be less companies in the 

966
00:58:30,760 --> 00:58:34,480
space unfortunately and the 
bigger ones will get even bigger

967
00:58:34,720 --> 00:58:37,160
because they will get more of 
the market share that the 

968
00:58:37,160 --> 00:58:41,400
smaller ones now cannot capture 
anymore and the bigger like 

969
00:58:41,400 --> 00:58:43,960
economies of scale, right. 
So it's for the bigger 

970
00:58:43,960 --> 00:58:48,360
companies, actually regulatory 
scrutiny is always good because 

971
00:58:48,360 --> 00:58:52,840
they can afford it like 
Coinbase, they have billions of 

972
00:58:52,840 --> 00:58:56,520
dollars on their balance sheet 
and getting billions of revenue 

973
00:58:56,520 --> 00:58:59,160
and profit. 
So they can afford, I think they

974
00:58:59,160 --> 00:59:05,760
invest like 5% or 10% of their 
their capital into regulatory 

975
00:59:06,080 --> 00:59:08,520
legal, compliance issues, even 
lobbying etcetera. 

976
00:59:08,800 --> 00:59:11,440
So for them it's good they can 
afford it because the small ones

977
00:59:11,440 --> 00:59:13,520
can't. 
So the bigger ones will get 

978
00:59:13,520 --> 00:59:15,920
bigger. 
There will be a smaller amount 

979
00:59:15,920 --> 00:59:19,760
of different companies that will
all comply. 

980
00:59:20,320 --> 00:59:22,680
But then on the other side as 
well, I think there will be like

981
00:59:22,680 --> 00:59:26,360
a counter movement to this, 
which is also interesting to see

982
00:59:26,360 --> 00:59:28,280
like for example peer-to-peer 
exchanges. 

983
00:59:29,040 --> 00:59:32,280
There will be more of these 
because also more and more 

984
00:59:32,280 --> 00:59:38,320
people will maybe dislike this 
whole regulatory development and

985
00:59:38,760 --> 00:59:43,600
start looking for alternatives 
and maybe we'll use something 

986
00:59:43,600 --> 00:59:46,360
else. 
Not something I can't base which

987
00:59:46,360 --> 00:59:49,880
is super highly regulated, but 
more something like on the other

988
00:59:49,880 --> 00:59:53,280
side, maybe even bisque or 
huddle hole which is on the 

989
00:59:53,280 --> 00:59:55,320
unregulated side as much as 
possible. 

990
00:59:55,760 --> 00:59:58,960
Of course something like relay 
where we're a bit in between. 

991
00:59:59,120 --> 01:00:01,760
We will be more and more 
regulated of course 

992
01:00:01,760 --> 01:00:05,320
unfortunately as a centralized 
not peer-to-peer player, but 

993
01:00:05,320 --> 01:00:08,880
still we are more on the other 
side of the spectrum because we 

994
01:00:08,880 --> 01:00:13,800
are Bitcoin only, non custodial 
and regulated in Switzerland 

995
01:00:13,800 --> 01:00:17,800
which is outside of the EU. 
So we do get some, still some 

996
01:00:17,800 --> 01:00:21,520
perks when it comes to that, but
still many of the limitations 

997
01:00:21,640 --> 01:00:24,400
that come with new EU 
regulations we will also need to

998
01:00:24,400 --> 01:00:27,080
adhere to. 
Yeah, it's definitely going to 

999
01:00:27,080 --> 01:00:30,800
be interesting. 
These are a bit the the 

1000
01:00:31,560 --> 01:00:34,480
developments I see. 
But in the end from a user 

1001
01:00:34,480 --> 01:00:37,840
perspective for if you're a 
normal like retail investors and

1002
01:00:37,840 --> 01:00:41,840
you just want to adopt Bitcoin, 
there's not a lot that will 

1003
01:00:41,880 --> 01:00:46,000
change. 
You will always be able to get 

1004
01:00:46,400 --> 01:00:52,880
into Bitcoin in different ways. 
Either you on the one side you 

1005
01:00:52,880 --> 01:00:56,800
can be super super regulated and
then you are you end up with 

1006
01:00:56,800 --> 01:01:00,440
something like an ETF or then 
you can go down the spectrum and

1007
01:01:00,440 --> 01:01:04,520
use something like a bank to buy
a bit more and more banks will 

1008
01:01:05,240 --> 01:01:08,240
through this regulation get into
Bitcoin, which is also good. 

1009
01:01:09,400 --> 01:01:11,880
You still have Bitcoin, it's 
just custodied and highly 

1010
01:01:11,880 --> 01:01:13,880
regulated by a bank. 
But you still have Bitcoin which

1011
01:01:13,880 --> 01:01:17,360
is cool. 
Then you can use an exchange 

1012
01:01:17,840 --> 01:01:20,320
which is also regulated, but 
then as the risk is a bit 

1013
01:01:20,320 --> 01:01:23,080
higher, it's still custodial but
you can still do it. 

1014
01:01:23,080 --> 01:01:25,200
Maybe the user experience is a 
bit better, I mean the 

1015
01:01:26,120 --> 01:01:29,160
simplicity of it. 
Then you can do something like 

1016
01:01:29,160 --> 01:01:33,240
Relay which is a regulated 
broker but still gives you self 

1017
01:01:33,240 --> 01:01:38,000
custody which which is cool. 
And then on the lower side, you 

1018
01:01:38,000 --> 01:01:41,000
can still use peer-to-peer 
exchanges like this, cuddle, 

1019
01:01:41,000 --> 01:01:43,400
hobble, etcetera. 
And I think all of these will be

1020
01:01:43,400 --> 01:01:48,720
used more and more and then 
really depends on your choice on

1021
01:01:48,720 --> 01:01:53,040
how regulated and how KYC heavy 
and how custodial you want to 

1022
01:01:53,040 --> 01:01:57,440
go. 
But yeah, I think in the end it 

1023
01:01:57,440 --> 01:02:00,920
is good and is inevitable sole 
regulation. 

1024
01:02:01,600 --> 01:02:05,080
So it's just about the companies
need to navigate it and the 

1025
01:02:05,080 --> 01:02:08,280
users as well. 
But in the end there will be 

1026
01:02:08,280 --> 01:02:12,000
more and more competition and 
therefore also better offerings 

1027
01:02:12,320 --> 01:02:14,840
for using more different 
offerings for users to access 

1028
01:02:14,840 --> 01:02:19,960
Bitcoin, which in the end this 
is, as everything great for 

1029
01:02:19,960 --> 01:02:21,160
Bitcoin. 
Yeah. 

1030
01:02:22,240 --> 01:02:25,920
All right. 
So what advice would you give to

1031
01:02:26,040 --> 01:02:28,760
a millennial just starting to 
explore Bitcoin? 

1032
01:02:29,520 --> 01:02:30,920
What would be like the main 
thing? 

1033
01:02:32,600 --> 01:02:38,000
First, educate yourself about it
before you really, like start 

1034
01:02:38,080 --> 01:02:40,840
jumping into it. 
I think that's a big mistake 

1035
01:02:40,840 --> 01:02:43,120
that many people are doing is, 
oh, the price went up. 

1036
01:02:43,120 --> 01:02:46,280
I don't have a lot of time. 
I just buy a little bit and then

1037
01:02:46,720 --> 01:02:48,720
they don't understand anything 
of it. 

1038
01:02:48,720 --> 01:02:50,720
Then when the price goes down 
they sell again. 

1039
01:02:51,360 --> 01:02:54,120
The longer the more you do this,
the longer you do this. 

1040
01:02:54,120 --> 01:02:57,160
You end up with always buying 
when it's high because that's 

1041
01:02:57,160 --> 01:03:02,560
when you read about it in the 
newspapers and then sell when 

1042
01:03:02,560 --> 01:03:06,040
it's low because then is also 
when you read about in newspaper

1043
01:03:06,040 --> 01:03:08,760
you think oh fuck, now it's all 
going to crash and because you 

1044
01:03:08,760 --> 01:03:11,040
don't understand because you 
don't have this long term 

1045
01:03:11,040 --> 01:03:13,920
conviction in it, you will sell 
and so in the end you will just 

1046
01:03:13,920 --> 01:03:16,720
lose money. 
That's why important that first 

1047
01:03:16,720 --> 01:03:20,280
you educate yourself about it. 
You see it in a very long time 

1048
01:03:20,280 --> 01:03:22,200
horizon. 
As Warren Buffett said, don't 

1049
01:03:22,200 --> 01:03:28,400
buy anything that you would not 
hold for 10 years, then rather 

1050
01:03:28,400 --> 01:03:29,960
don't even hold it for 10 
minutes. 

1051
01:03:30,800 --> 01:03:34,000
So you need to get this 
conviction and this commitment 

1052
01:03:34,160 --> 01:03:39,160
that, OK, I want to hold Bitcoin
for 10 years and then I would 

1053
01:03:39,480 --> 01:03:42,640
advice, obviously it's not 
financial advice, but what works

1054
01:03:42,640 --> 01:03:46,480
best I think for the most people
is just set up a savings plan, 

1055
01:03:46,480 --> 01:03:49,720
you know, dollar cost average, 
you have your set amount of Fiat

1056
01:03:49,720 --> 01:03:54,480
money per week or per month that
you don't did, you want to save 

1057
01:03:54,480 --> 01:03:56,840
and you don't have to touch in 
the next couple of years. 

1058
01:03:57,240 --> 01:03:58,960
And then you put this into 
Bitcoin. 

1059
01:03:58,960 --> 01:04:03,160
And also you learn how to store 
this Bitcoin safely, ideally 

1060
01:04:03,160 --> 01:04:06,480
with yourself without any 
counterparty risk, etcetera, 

1061
01:04:06,840 --> 01:04:10,960
self custodial. 
And then the the longer you will

1062
01:04:10,960 --> 01:04:13,160
do this, the more happier you 
will be. 

1063
01:04:13,720 --> 01:04:16,840
Because if you do it at least 
four years then at least 

1064
01:04:16,840 --> 01:04:21,560
historically no one has ever 
made the a loss and you will 

1065
01:04:21,560 --> 01:04:24,280
understand it more and more. 
So probably your conviction will

1066
01:04:24,280 --> 01:04:29,640
grow and then, yeah, you will. 
You will just do very well. 

1067
01:04:31,120 --> 01:04:32,720
Awesome man. 
That's good advice. 

1068
01:04:33,040 --> 01:04:36,440
So last question and I asked 
everyone the same question. 

1069
01:04:37,240 --> 01:04:39,720
What is a core belief that you 
will never let go? 

1070
01:04:47,640 --> 01:04:57,280
That's a very good question. 
My core belief is that human 

1071
01:04:57,280 --> 01:05:03,960
beings are curious and open and 
productive and entrepreneurial, 

1072
01:05:04,400 --> 01:05:08,760
so they will always find 
solution to every problem. 

1073
01:05:09,600 --> 01:05:12,440
And that's also what excites me 
about Bitcoin is this community 

1074
01:05:12,440 --> 01:05:17,080
that is coming together to 
create a better world in fixing 

1075
01:05:17,720 --> 01:05:23,000
the financial system or creating
an alternative to new financial 

1076
01:05:23,000 --> 01:05:25,880
system. 
And I think you can look back 

1077
01:05:26,400 --> 01:05:31,760
10s of thousands of years of 
human history and basically what

1078
01:05:31,760 --> 01:05:36,280
we were always good at, what is 
basically in our DNA is we 

1079
01:05:36,280 --> 01:05:38,640
always solve all the problems 
that are coming. 

1080
01:05:38,960 --> 01:05:41,320
We always keep making better 
things. 

1081
01:05:41,320 --> 01:05:43,280
We keep enhancing our living 
standards. 

1082
01:05:44,560 --> 01:05:49,400
So that's also making me look 
into the future. 

1083
01:05:50,640 --> 01:05:54,440
You know in in very the future 
looks very promising to me. 

1084
01:05:54,600 --> 01:06:01,520
In a lot of people are like kind
of have quite a negative view on

1085
01:06:01,520 --> 01:06:03,960
the future now because a lot of 
things are going wrong. 

1086
01:06:03,960 --> 01:06:08,720
I I see that we have a lot of 
problems, but every generation 

1087
01:06:08,720 --> 01:06:12,040
usually thinks, oh now we're 
fucked like this, this was it. 

1088
01:06:12,160 --> 01:06:13,600
I think every generation has 
that. 

1089
01:06:14,360 --> 01:06:19,120
But I my core believe is that in
the end it's a very optimistic 

1090
01:06:19,120 --> 01:06:22,200
one that in the end we will 
together solve all these 

1091
01:06:22,200 --> 01:06:25,360
problems and create a better 
future for our next generation. 

1092
01:06:26,640 --> 01:06:28,120
Awesome. 
Manuel, thanks so much for this 

1093
01:06:28,120 --> 01:06:29,760
conversation. 
I really enjoyed it. 

1094
01:06:30,280 --> 01:06:34,320
And if I'm ever around where you
are in Switzerland, I'll 

1095
01:06:34,320 --> 01:06:37,480
definitely come by and yeah, 
let's stay in touch. 

1096
01:06:37,760 --> 01:06:40,160
Hell yeah, we will. 
Thank you so much for everything

1097
01:06:40,160 --> 01:06:42,280
you do. 
I really love your podcast and 

1098
01:06:42,280 --> 01:06:46,600
your ex or Twitter engagement. 
So keep up the great work and 

1099
01:06:46,600 --> 01:06:48,560
spreading the word. 
And yeah, talk soon. 

1100
01:06:48,600 --> 01:06:50,160
Thanks for having me. 
Cheers. 

1101
01:06:50,800 --> 01:06:53,480
I hope you enjoyed this episode.
If you did, it would be amazing 

1102
01:06:53,480 --> 01:06:56,280
if you could rate, review and 
subscribe on the podcast 

1103
01:06:56,280 --> 01:06:59,240
platform of your choice. 
It will help us educate more 

1104
01:06:59,240 --> 01:07:01,360
millennials on the importance of
Bitcoin. 

1105
01:07:01,600 --> 01:07:03,360
You can follow and connect with 
me on Twitter. 

1106
01:07:03,360 --> 01:07:08,000
I'm Brom K That's at BR AM K and
if you are or know someone who 

1107
01:07:08,000 --> 01:07:10,600
has an interesting perspective 
on Bitcoin that's worth sharing,

1108
01:07:10,600 --> 01:07:12,880
hit me up. 
I read and reply to every single

1109
01:07:12,880 --> 01:07:14,800
message. 
I appreciate your support and 

1110
01:07:14,800 --> 01:07:16,440
hope you'll be here for the next
episode. 

1111
01:07:16,760 --> 01:07:18,040
Thanks for listening. 
Bye.