1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:04,960 If money's being debased, then you can't express your, your 2 00:00:04,960 --> 00:00:08,760 values as fully. You, you may have predicted that 3 00:00:08,760 --> 00:00:11,160 you would have been, you know, sometime in the future I'll be 4 00:00:11,160 --> 00:00:14,440 able to do X thing and I'll be able to express my value in some 5 00:00:14,440 --> 00:00:17,440 way because I, I want to buy this, this thing that I want. 6 00:00:17,560 --> 00:00:19,960 All the money that you have right now is worth the most 7 00:00:20,000 --> 00:00:22,680 right now, you know, so you have to spend it. 8 00:00:22,680 --> 00:00:25,840 And that's why people are also competing to gather that money 9 00:00:25,840 --> 00:00:32,360 quickly. All right, BITS team, welcome to 10 00:00:32,360 --> 00:00:33,480 Bitcoin for Millennials. Thank. 11 00:00:34,280 --> 00:00:37,200 You so much for having me. Yeah, thanks so much for coming 12 00:00:37,200 --> 00:00:38,680 on. I, I, I just shared with you, 13 00:00:38,680 --> 00:00:41,760 you have, you have been one of the people on my journey to 14 00:00:42,920 --> 00:00:46,600 yeah, give me insights, point me to, you know, other podcast 15 00:00:46,600 --> 00:00:50,160 articles, etcetera. And yeah, I, I just want to say 16 00:00:50,160 --> 00:00:53,360 again, like I'm, I'm grateful for that because I, I always 17 00:00:53,360 --> 00:00:54,920 think it's nice to hear that back. 18 00:00:55,200 --> 00:00:57,280 And you never know how far the stuff you do on the Internet 19 00:00:57,280 --> 00:01:00,360 travels, right? So yeah, just wanted to share 20 00:01:00,360 --> 00:01:02,200 that. You know, it's, it's always 21 00:01:02,720 --> 00:01:06,200 humbling and I'm always honored to have helped people learn. 22 00:01:06,200 --> 00:01:09,280 And it's so true that you never know who's listening. 23 00:01:09,280 --> 00:01:13,480 I've, I've had some of the most the, the the strangest people 24 00:01:13,480 --> 00:01:17,480 reach out to me before. And it's, it's always a it's, 25 00:01:17,600 --> 00:01:21,800 it's fun, it's interesting. And it also one of the things I 26 00:01:21,800 --> 00:01:25,640 love most about it is that it shows the sort of true global 27 00:01:25,640 --> 00:01:28,960 nature of Bitcoin and that, you know, Bitcoin really is for 28 00:01:28,960 --> 00:01:33,920 everyone. And these, these ideas are that 29 00:01:33,920 --> 00:01:39,640 they're universally applicable. And so anyway, yeah, thank you. 30 00:01:39,800 --> 00:01:41,400 Yeah. Yeah, 100%. 31 00:01:41,400 --> 00:01:45,760 And I think that's a nice leeway into kind of like the where I 32 00:01:45,760 --> 00:01:47,680 wanted to start in this conversation. 33 00:01:48,040 --> 00:01:51,240 And I was thinking a nice place to start is with a question that 34 00:01:51,240 --> 00:01:54,600 lots of, you know, critics ask when talking about Bitcoin. 35 00:01:55,000 --> 00:01:58,280 And that is, what does Bitcoin produce or generate? 36 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:04,080 Nothing. It is a a worthless Tulip and 37 00:02:05,160 --> 00:02:09,880 it's a Ponzi scheme. So Bitcoin, what it what it is, 38 00:02:09,880 --> 00:02:13,720 is the best monetary technology ever produced. 39 00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:17,600 And to understand that, you know, we need to understand 40 00:02:17,600 --> 00:02:20,960 that, you know, money itself is not something that that 41 00:02:22,440 --> 00:02:28,120 generates some other good money is, is it's a special kind of 42 00:02:28,120 --> 00:02:30,040 good. So there's consumer goods and 43 00:02:30,040 --> 00:02:32,680 there's capital goods. Generally speaking, you know, 44 00:02:32,680 --> 00:02:35,960 it's something that you actually, you you get so that 45 00:02:35,960 --> 00:02:40,640 you can consume it, you know, some, some food or entertainment 46 00:02:40,640 --> 00:02:44,120 or some kind of product of, you know, and then there's capital 47 00:02:44,120 --> 00:02:47,720 goods, which are goods that produce other goods. 48 00:02:48,240 --> 00:02:51,440 Money is neither of those. Money is a a special good that 49 00:02:51,440 --> 00:02:55,280 we use specifically for trading for other goods. 50 00:02:55,600 --> 00:03:00,400 And So what Bitcoin, by virtue of being the greatest monetary 51 00:03:00,400 --> 00:03:04,720 technology ever, it best supplies what money is meant to 52 00:03:04,720 --> 00:03:09,720 supply, which is certainty in an uncertain future. 53 00:03:10,040 --> 00:03:13,000 So all of us have to deal with the fact that we don't know 54 00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:14,840 what's going to happen in the future. 55 00:03:15,800 --> 00:03:21,360 And because of that, we want to have some way of dealing with 56 00:03:21,400 --> 00:03:25,400 all of the potential weirdness that we have to deal with, 57 00:03:25,400 --> 00:03:29,040 whether it's, you know, good or bad, good opportunities or, or, 58 00:03:29,120 --> 00:03:33,720 you know, bad situations, you always want to be prepared to 59 00:03:33,720 --> 00:03:37,280 deal with everything. And Bitcoin offers that 60 00:03:37,280 --> 00:03:41,880 certainty because of the fact that it is an extremely reliable 61 00:03:43,080 --> 00:03:48,360 network that has all kinds of properties from, you know, the 62 00:03:48,400 --> 00:03:51,040 the classic, the classic, you know, divisibility, 63 00:03:51,040 --> 00:03:55,200 transportability and and so on and so forth. 64 00:03:56,040 --> 00:03:58,800 And we, you know, we can get into the details of that, but 65 00:03:58,800 --> 00:04:04,840 basically what it actually offers is that certainty going 66 00:04:04,840 --> 00:04:09,600 into an uncertain future. Yeah, what I love about this, 67 00:04:09,600 --> 00:04:14,880 that eventually the the the point or this what Bitcoin is, 68 00:04:14,880 --> 00:04:18,200 is very simplistic, right? It's like there's a set of rules 69 00:04:18,399 --> 00:04:22,040 every 10 minutes, we check if it still works as advertised, 70 00:04:22,040 --> 00:04:25,240 right? As as rules enough nodes say 71 00:04:25,240 --> 00:04:28,440 yes, you know, and then we and then we just continue basically. 72 00:04:28,920 --> 00:04:32,880 But in the, in the, in the Fiat money world where, you know, 73 00:04:32,920 --> 00:04:37,520 this asset is like trying to compete, it's, it's, there's a 74 00:04:37,520 --> 00:04:39,440 lot of noise, right? There's a lot of like 75 00:04:39,440 --> 00:04:41,000 abstraction and, and all these things. 76 00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:44,680 So I feel like Bitcoin is so hard to understand because it's 77 00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:49,400 so simple in a world that's like not really or, or very hard to 78 00:04:49,400 --> 00:04:52,320 understand, right? Can you share with me why is 79 00:04:52,320 --> 00:04:56,200 this constant and so important? Is it, well, as you said, you 80 00:04:56,200 --> 00:04:59,960 know, like this, this uncertain future, but isn't it also 81 00:04:59,960 --> 00:05:03,720 because what should serve as this constant is constantly 82 00:05:03,840 --> 00:05:06,960 changing basically? So it's not acting as the 83 00:05:06,960 --> 00:05:07,400 constant. Yeah. 84 00:05:07,480 --> 00:05:10,680 Well, and so that that's one of the major that that's certainly 85 00:05:10,680 --> 00:05:15,200 one of the major kind of uncertainties that Bitcoin 86 00:05:15,200 --> 00:05:18,280 relieves is the fact that you don't have to worry about about 87 00:05:18,280 --> 00:05:25,520 it being debased because it has, you know, finite scarcity as far 88 00:05:25,520 --> 00:05:27,800 as like, you know, the different ways that people kind of get 89 00:05:27,840 --> 00:05:29,560 confused. I, I don't think they think 90 00:05:29,560 --> 00:05:32,960 about money that way. It's, you know, to me, money 91 00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:36,280 seems pretty straightforward. You know it, it's exactly that 92 00:05:36,280 --> 00:05:39,800 it's a hedge against future uncertainty, But that itself 93 00:05:39,800 --> 00:05:43,040 takes a lot to unpack in the way that people generally think 94 00:05:43,040 --> 00:05:49,280 about money tends to be just in what they're doing day-to-day Is 95 00:05:49,280 --> 00:05:52,080 like money the thing money is the thing I get my groceries 96 00:05:52,080 --> 00:05:54,800 with. You know, money is the thing I 97 00:05:54,920 --> 00:05:59,320 use to go buy stuff. And yes, that is true. 98 00:05:59,320 --> 00:06:01,640 That is literally what we use money for. 99 00:06:02,320 --> 00:06:06,000 But it doesn't, it doesn't peel back and ask the question is 100 00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:08,480 like, what problem existed there? 101 00:06:08,920 --> 00:06:12,560 That having money means we no longer have that problem. 102 00:06:12,800 --> 00:06:15,160 And it's things, you know, the, the, the classic double 103 00:06:15,160 --> 00:06:18,760 coincidence of wants problem of, you know, that's the uncertainty 104 00:06:18,840 --> 00:06:23,640 of will I have the thing that the other person wants and will 105 00:06:23,640 --> 00:06:27,160 that person have the thing that I want so that it magically 106 00:06:27,280 --> 00:06:30,960 matches up that we can make a, a fair trade to all get what we 107 00:06:30,960 --> 00:06:33,680 want. That that's a very difficult 108 00:06:33,720 --> 00:06:35,960 thing to do. This is why we don't live in a 109 00:06:35,960 --> 00:06:40,240 barter economy because it is simply doesn't scale. 110 00:06:40,840 --> 00:06:43,280 Even even with two people can be very difficult because you don't 111 00:06:43,280 --> 00:06:46,440 know if you have what you want. And then when you have a bunch 112 00:06:46,440 --> 00:06:49,360 of people trying to all, you know, they have all kinds of 113 00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:52,240 different things that they they need and want, it just doesn't 114 00:06:52,240 --> 00:06:54,680 work out. And so people start seeking out, 115 00:06:54,680 --> 00:06:57,840 you know, what is the good that I can expect other people to 116 00:06:57,840 --> 00:07:00,760 want? You know, if I, if I just bring 117 00:07:00,760 --> 00:07:03,800 eggs to market, there's an uncertainty as to whether people 118 00:07:03,800 --> 00:07:05,400 want it. But if there's a good that I can 119 00:07:05,400 --> 00:07:09,320 expect everyone to want, then I have some level of certainty 120 00:07:09,320 --> 00:07:13,200 that whatever good I'm bringing to the market, someone's going 121 00:07:13,200 --> 00:07:15,560 to want it. And, you know, I have a higher 122 00:07:15,560 --> 00:07:18,960 chance of being able to get the thing that I'm looking for. 123 00:07:20,120 --> 00:07:23,880 So Bitcoin and money in general is like actually solving that 124 00:07:23,880 --> 00:07:28,240 problem, but people usually just think on it on, on it at the 125 00:07:28,280 --> 00:07:32,440 sort of surface level of like the, the act of the problem 126 00:07:32,440 --> 00:07:35,200 being solved instead of what problem is being solved, if 127 00:07:35,200 --> 00:07:38,800 that, if that makes sense. So I, I, I think that's AI think 128 00:07:38,800 --> 00:07:41,720 that's a big hang up for people. And it, it, it takes, you know, 129 00:07:41,760 --> 00:07:45,000 it, it takes some some time and thinking to kind of like dig 130 00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:47,920 back and, and, and think through that. 131 00:07:47,920 --> 00:07:52,640 And so despite the fact that the actual final answer for what is 132 00:07:52,640 --> 00:07:57,080 money is rather simple, it does take a lot to unpack. 133 00:07:57,680 --> 00:08:01,000 You know, what, what all of that that is. 134 00:08:01,720 --> 00:08:05,000 I think specifically with something, so you have a lot of 135 00:08:05,000 --> 00:08:09,520 gold bug types, people who, who want to, you know, return to a 136 00:08:09,520 --> 00:08:11,880 gold standard. They want to see gold 137 00:08:12,480 --> 00:08:16,720 reintroduced as money because classically it was a, a, you 138 00:08:16,720 --> 00:08:20,280 know, is the, the harvest money and it, it powered a lot of 139 00:08:20,560 --> 00:08:22,920 great economic development and so on and so forth. 140 00:08:23,680 --> 00:08:28,880 A lot of those people get hung up, I think on sort of the, the 141 00:08:29,880 --> 00:08:34,200 some, some wrong properties of gold within their analysis. 142 00:08:34,200 --> 00:08:37,600 That is to say they, they understand that the scarcity, 143 00:08:37,600 --> 00:08:40,240 divisibility, fungibility, like all these kinds of great things 144 00:08:40,240 --> 00:08:42,520 about gold. But then they also get hung up 145 00:08:42,520 --> 00:08:47,200 by and I'm specifically thinking in terms of the physicality. 146 00:08:48,120 --> 00:08:53,160 So I think they often mistake the physicality of gold versus 147 00:08:53,160 --> 00:09:00,320 the digital nature of Bitcoin as as being an advantage and one 148 00:09:00,320 --> 00:09:03,960 that for Bitcoin doesn't make any sense. 149 00:09:04,560 --> 00:09:08,360 But, but I would argue that that's actually a a benefit to 150 00:09:08,360 --> 00:09:13,800 Bitcoin because of the fact that it allows for types of 151 00:09:14,040 --> 00:09:18,720 transportability and storage and security and so on and so forth 152 00:09:18,800 --> 00:09:22,960 that the physicality of gold actually holds back A great 153 00:09:22,960 --> 00:09:24,880 example of this 2 great examples. 154 00:09:24,880 --> 00:09:27,960 One, I guess that transportability, you can send 155 00:09:27,960 --> 00:09:32,000 it instantly online anywhere in the world and sending it to your 156 00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:36,080 neighbor is just as easy as sending it to someone who's 157 00:09:36,440 --> 00:09:38,240 literally on the other side of the planet. 158 00:09:39,480 --> 00:09:42,040 And that is that is an incredible feat. 159 00:09:42,080 --> 00:09:43,480 And you cannot do that with gold. 160 00:09:43,480 --> 00:09:46,360 Gold is very heavy. You have to physically carry it 161 00:09:46,360 --> 00:09:49,000 somewhere. And then you know, from the 162 00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:55,560 security aspect, the fact that you can, you know, with it, with 163 00:09:55,560 --> 00:09:58,520 gold, if you're storing it, it all has to go, just go in one 164 00:09:58,520 --> 00:10:01,600 big gold vault. And historically, you know, if 165 00:10:01,600 --> 00:10:04,400 you're in a war and stuff like that, that's where you go first. 166 00:10:04,760 --> 00:10:07,720 You know, when you, when you invade your enemy, it's like 167 00:10:07,720 --> 00:10:10,320 you're going to go straight for that, straight for that gold. 168 00:10:10,760 --> 00:10:13,200 And we see that time and time again throughout history. 169 00:10:14,040 --> 00:10:16,440 And obviously that happens at a small scale too. 170 00:10:16,440 --> 00:10:18,920 People, people rob houses and so on and so forth. 171 00:10:19,480 --> 00:10:25,200 And Bitcoin has things like multi sig and that's by virtue 172 00:10:25,200 --> 00:10:30,160 of the fact that it's digital. And so the uncertainty of, you 173 00:10:30,160 --> 00:10:34,760 know, security, like making sure you 'cause if we go back to, 174 00:10:35,280 --> 00:10:39,000 well, let me finish that. Basically, you know, the because 175 00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:41,960 it's because we can split up keys. 176 00:10:43,120 --> 00:10:45,600 You don't have to have it all physically in one place. 177 00:10:46,480 --> 00:10:48,560 Yeah, exactly. And that is that is an 178 00:10:48,560 --> 00:10:50,880 incredible boon. And likewise, it's like you 179 00:10:50,880 --> 00:10:54,600 don't even have to. You don't even have to open the 180 00:10:54,600 --> 00:10:58,600 vault to put the money in, which is something very interesting. 181 00:11:00,240 --> 00:11:02,640 Are you looking to save in Bitcoin for your retirement? 182 00:11:02,840 --> 00:11:05,880 Meet Onramp, the leader in Bitcoin financial services. 183 00:11:06,280 --> 00:11:09,560 Onramp has just launched the industry's first Bitcoin IRA 184 00:11:09,680 --> 00:11:13,400 with multi institution custody. That means unparalleled support 185 00:11:13,600 --> 00:11:16,600 transparency and Peace of Mind for your retirements. 186 00:11:16,720 --> 00:11:19,880 With on ramp, you can verify your assets directly on chain 187 00:11:20,080 --> 00:11:22,560 and protect them with the support of three independent 188 00:11:22,560 --> 00:11:25,680 institutions, eliminating the risks of a single point of 189 00:11:25,680 --> 00:11:27,560 failure. Are you ready to take control of 190 00:11:27,560 --> 00:11:30,960 your Bitcoin retirement? Visit the link below or go to on 191 00:11:30,960 --> 00:11:34,920 rampbitcoin.com to learn more about on Ramps Bitcoin IRA It's. 192 00:11:35,080 --> 00:11:39,280 Like if we think about, you know, heist movies and stuff, 193 00:11:39,280 --> 00:11:42,400 it's like that's often the time that you're, you're basically 194 00:11:42,400 --> 00:11:44,800 making the heist. It's like at some point they 195 00:11:44,800 --> 00:11:47,440 have to open the vault. That's when you should go run in 196 00:11:47,440 --> 00:11:51,440 and and take stuff. Whereas with Bitcoin, it's all 197 00:11:51,680 --> 00:11:54,440 cryptographically locked up, cold storage, etcetera. 198 00:11:54,840 --> 00:11:58,320 And you just have to share the public key and people can send 199 00:11:59,040 --> 00:12:04,840 the, the digital gold right into a multi geographic, multi 200 00:12:04,840 --> 00:12:07,360 jurisdictional, you know, multi sig. 201 00:12:08,360 --> 00:12:12,280 And and So what does that mean? It means that there are 202 00:12:12,280 --> 00:12:17,040 uncertainties that gold faces the the, the cost of dealing 203 00:12:17,040 --> 00:12:19,040 with the gold and the uncertainties of dealing with 204 00:12:19,040 --> 00:12:23,160 gold that Bitcoin is able to overtake. 205 00:12:23,760 --> 00:12:27,560 It's like it has like a sort of absolute advantage in many ways. 206 00:12:29,040 --> 00:12:31,840 And that is just an incredible thing. 207 00:12:31,840 --> 00:12:35,280 But because they get caught up because they like the feeling 208 00:12:35,280 --> 00:12:39,160 of, you know, holding something they're used to growing up where 209 00:12:39,200 --> 00:12:42,080 more people use dollar bills as well. 210 00:12:42,120 --> 00:12:44,680 So money is a, a very physical thing. 211 00:12:44,680 --> 00:12:47,560 Or, you know, when you make it big, you get to, to riffle 212 00:12:47,560 --> 00:12:49,520 through your, your stack of Benjamins. 213 00:12:49,960 --> 00:12:51,520 You don't get to do that with Bitcoin. 214 00:12:53,440 --> 00:12:57,960 I think they they they place too much emphasis on certain 215 00:12:58,520 --> 00:13:04,320 properties that I think more more thought about what is 216 00:13:04,320 --> 00:13:08,600 actually being solved by those properties can show us that 217 00:13:08,600 --> 00:13:12,320 Bitcoin actually does a better job of addressing these problems 218 00:13:13,040 --> 00:13:16,600 from a sort of economic and engineering point of view. 219 00:13:17,840 --> 00:13:20,200 Yeah, yeah. I think that's a really good 220 00:13:20,200 --> 00:13:23,560 reflection, right? The people that have gold 221 00:13:23,560 --> 00:13:27,560 understand the problem, but I mean that, yeah, they're, 222 00:13:27,640 --> 00:13:31,120 they're stuck in, in their choice of the solution. 223 00:13:31,120 --> 00:13:34,200 Whereas, you know, the, the, yes, the characteristics they 224 00:13:34,200 --> 00:13:38,400 use to show superiority are actually, you know, inferior to 225 00:13:38,400 --> 00:13:41,080 what, what Bitcoin can do. And I love what you said about, 226 00:13:41,080 --> 00:13:44,040 you know, this fault thing. Like I really have to own the 227 00:13:44,040 --> 00:13:47,560 gold, physically hold it to be able to use it right. 228 00:13:47,560 --> 00:13:52,880 And the implication of that is, is huge with regards to to 229 00:13:52,880 --> 00:13:55,160 security for once. But also, yeah, the goal that I 230 00:13:55,160 --> 00:13:57,320 hold is that real, you know, like all, like all these 231 00:13:57,320 --> 00:14:00,560 questions that come up there as well. 232 00:14:00,800 --> 00:14:03,680 That's what you said about exactly. 233 00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:07,440 I once tweeted that tweet did really well. 234 00:14:07,440 --> 00:14:11,560 Like if you have someone posted like this suitcase full of gold, 235 00:14:11,560 --> 00:14:13,880 you know, and for me, like it really feels like an ancient 236 00:14:13,880 --> 00:14:15,480 thing. I don't know, I I really just 237 00:14:15,480 --> 00:14:17,800 don't get it. But once you realize that you 238 00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:21,640 need like 3 machines to verify it being real. 239 00:14:22,680 --> 00:14:26,160 Like what are you doing? You know, worse than that, the 240 00:14:26,240 --> 00:14:30,400 the the quote gold standard in a saying gold and making sure it's 241 00:14:30,400 --> 00:14:32,240 real gold. You have to literally take the 242 00:14:32,240 --> 00:14:36,520 gold bar or gold coin, melt it down and then use one of those 243 00:14:36,520 --> 00:14:39,600 machines to be doing all sorts of chemical analysis on it. 244 00:14:40,800 --> 00:14:46,320 And then you have to restrike it into the coin or the bar in 245 00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:51,080 order to in order to know that, oh, this one is actually gold. 246 00:14:51,360 --> 00:14:56,320 And this is many reasons, like I, I, I've seen before people 247 00:14:56,320 --> 00:15:02,760 criticize, you know, Bitcoin in reference to like you have, you 248 00:15:02,760 --> 00:15:06,360 have things like the, the London I, I'm, I'm blanking on the, the 249 00:15:06,360 --> 00:15:09,080 exact name, but basically the London gold Exchange. 250 00:15:09,520 --> 00:15:15,360 And there's certain things around, you know, where people 251 00:15:15,480 --> 00:15:18,600 demand centralization and, and, and such. 252 00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:20,920 And so actually these are solving some real problems or 253 00:15:20,920 --> 00:15:23,080 whatever. But like, what's interesting 254 00:15:23,080 --> 00:15:28,280 about thinking from this perspective of uncertainties, 255 00:15:28,520 --> 00:15:32,280 some of the things that we've done in the past that we don't 256 00:15:32,280 --> 00:15:36,640 like as Bitcoiners, you can't think of them as having solved a 257 00:15:36,640 --> 00:15:40,640 real problem, but in a very suboptimal way, which opened it 258 00:15:40,640 --> 00:15:45,520 up to, you know, various forms of regulatory capture. 259 00:15:45,800 --> 00:15:50,120 So when you realize that gold is that difficult to truly know 260 00:15:50,120 --> 00:15:54,240 it's gold, it actually makes sense to have, you know, various 261 00:15:54,240 --> 00:15:57,520 centralized mints. What those are doing is saying, 262 00:15:57,640 --> 00:16:02,600 you know, they, they are able to produce a recognizable form of a 263 00:16:02,600 --> 00:16:07,560 coin or a bar so that you can trust it enough. 264 00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:11,200 You know, it's like you can just you can, you can sort of offload 265 00:16:11,200 --> 00:16:17,560 the trust a a a bit and just assume that that gold bar is, 266 00:16:17,560 --> 00:16:22,800 is, you know, fine because it has the right stamp on it, 267 00:16:23,120 --> 00:16:26,680 because otherwise it would just be too expensive and things like 268 00:16:26,680 --> 00:16:32,040 that. They they, they aren't like good 269 00:16:32,040 --> 00:16:35,080 in and of themselves. Is that you needed to do that 270 00:16:35,080 --> 00:16:39,200 because it was the only way to sort of quote scale, you know, 271 00:16:39,240 --> 00:16:42,600 metals usage when you have Bitcoin and anyone can run a 272 00:16:42,600 --> 00:16:46,200 node suddenly, you know that whole that whole class of 273 00:16:46,200 --> 00:16:49,920 problem is completely gone because all of that is happening 274 00:16:49,920 --> 00:16:53,640 automatically under the hood. And so these things that we sort 275 00:16:53,640 --> 00:16:58,040 of took for granted, no, we just simply don't need them anymore. 276 00:16:58,200 --> 00:17:02,680 The same way that we don't need to hire people to sweep poop off 277 00:17:02,680 --> 00:17:06,359 the ground after our horse carriages because now we just 278 00:17:06,359 --> 00:17:08,000 have cars. Yeah, exactly. 279 00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:10,920 I I think this is a good like I don't have anything against 280 00:17:10,920 --> 00:17:14,319 gold, like I just don't get it. But what I think eventually 281 00:17:14,319 --> 00:17:19,720 people should see or realize that there is a superior 282 00:17:19,720 --> 00:17:22,560 alternative, right? Like gold, gold is doing its job 283 00:17:22,560 --> 00:17:24,760 and and you know, it has its place in the world. 284 00:17:25,920 --> 00:17:28,400 But yeah, the properties of Bitcoin are just superior. 285 00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:30,160 And I love the vault example, by the way. 286 00:17:30,160 --> 00:17:33,280 I I share that a lot, right? Like, so if you put a private 287 00:17:33,280 --> 00:17:36,000 key in a vault and you have the public key, you can send value 288 00:17:36,600 --> 00:17:39,320 into a fold in Switzerland, right? 289 00:17:39,320 --> 00:17:43,240 Or if I just take, you know, a a pen and a paper and I write 290 00:17:43,240 --> 00:17:45,680 letters and numbers that could represent a billion dollars in 291 00:17:45,680 --> 00:17:47,640 value, right? Like that makes it tangible. 292 00:17:48,160 --> 00:17:50,120 Like you can put it in your pocket, but you can RIP it up as 293 00:17:50,120 --> 00:17:53,600 well. Like it's just that is the in in 294 00:17:53,600 --> 00:17:55,720 some way for some people. Like pretty much the mind 295 00:17:55,720 --> 00:17:58,080 blowing part as well. Like you can have it now. 296 00:17:58,080 --> 00:18:01,360 You don't, you know, like just on the on on the piece of paper. 297 00:18:03,000 --> 00:18:06,400 But yeah, this is I, I think part of the difficulty of 298 00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:10,960 understanding it again, it's, it's better and more simple, 299 00:18:10,960 --> 00:18:12,800 right? Like, oh, how would you verify 300 00:18:12,800 --> 00:18:17,320 an asset like this, right? Compared to what people know? 301 00:18:18,200 --> 00:18:20,840 This is way simpler, quicker, etcetera. 302 00:18:20,920 --> 00:18:25,960 But yeah, I think, you know, gold is a narrative. 303 00:18:25,960 --> 00:18:29,000 It's a narrative, right? Like, yes, it's a, what you are 304 00:18:29,000 --> 00:18:31,040 talking about is a is a, is a narrative. 305 00:18:31,040 --> 00:18:34,280 And I think that's I, I want to talk, talk about that later with 306 00:18:34,280 --> 00:18:36,440 the memes and stuff, But that is also what we are battling, 307 00:18:36,440 --> 00:18:38,240 right? So you, you don't pitch Bitcoin 308 00:18:38,240 --> 00:18:39,720 as being like, oh, it's superior. 309 00:18:40,160 --> 00:18:45,520 Now you need to explain people, not only that, you know, the, 310 00:18:45,560 --> 00:18:49,480 the, the, the factual things, why it's superior, but also take 311 00:18:49,480 --> 00:18:52,040 them along. You know, this is the narrative 312 00:18:52,040 --> 00:18:55,920 that you are following that comes from XYZ because problem 313 00:18:55,920 --> 00:18:59,720 ABC, you know, and then you go back again to talk about what 314 00:18:59,720 --> 00:19:02,760 Bitcoin brings. Yes, and I think this, you know, 315 00:19:02,760 --> 00:19:05,160 some of that, you know, we were, we were talking about gold bugs 316 00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:07,280 in particular. I mean that's that's one group 317 00:19:07,280 --> 00:19:10,320 of people who have their hesitation to a Bitcoin. 318 00:19:10,320 --> 00:19:14,280 But I think the much, much bigger population of people who 319 00:19:15,400 --> 00:19:18,840 and, and quietly like larger pools of capital that are having 320 00:19:18,840 --> 00:19:22,280 trouble making sense of Bitcoin, you know, are, are basically 321 00:19:22,280 --> 00:19:25,960 coming from a, a Fiat mindset rather than a, you know, 322 00:19:26,080 --> 00:19:29,640 different hard money asset. And for those people, I think 323 00:19:30,160 --> 00:19:35,560 some of the same things apply. So I think, for instance, there 324 00:19:35,560 --> 00:19:41,600 is a, a lot of what's called charnel ISM in the, the, the, 325 00:19:41,640 --> 00:19:43,720 the Fiat world. And this is basically the, the, 326 00:19:43,800 --> 00:19:47,560 the basic idea is that money is something that originates with 327 00:19:47,560 --> 00:19:50,280 the state rather than the marketplace. 328 00:19:50,280 --> 00:19:54,400 Whereas sort of the, the Austrian theory of money would 329 00:19:54,400 --> 00:19:58,440 argue that it, that it arises from the market basically as a 330 00:19:58,440 --> 00:20:02,040 natural process of people dealing with those uncertainties 331 00:20:02,040 --> 00:20:04,360 and so on and so forth. And so they have a natural 332 00:20:04,560 --> 00:20:10,120 inclination to find, find the good that works among them, much 333 00:20:10,120 --> 00:20:12,000 in the same way sort of language develops. 334 00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:19,760 But some of the, some of the things that a, a, you know, but 335 00:20:19,760 --> 00:20:22,120 most people are not even walking around even thinking about that 336 00:20:22,120 --> 00:20:24,720 word chart ISM. It's just sort of in the water. 337 00:20:25,320 --> 00:20:29,120 In many ways, they're used to using money with dead presidents 338 00:20:29,120 --> 00:20:32,720 on them or some other sort of national emblem. 339 00:20:33,040 --> 00:20:37,440 And because of that, they, they associate because of the, the, 340 00:20:37,720 --> 00:20:42,000 the modern forms of currency, they heavily associate those 341 00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:46,040 monies with the nation states. And so it's like, oh, it 342 00:20:46,040 --> 00:20:48,000 originates with the nation state. 343 00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:55,400 And I think this shows, you know, the the the the same 344 00:20:55,400 --> 00:20:57,400 process. So, you know, people having to 345 00:20:57,880 --> 00:21:02,000 stamp stamp their own coins, like, you know, the government 346 00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:06,040 or something might might stamp coins as a way to kind of help 347 00:21:06,040 --> 00:21:10,480 with knowing whether gold is actually gold or silver is 348 00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:12,160 actually silver, etcetera, etcetera. 349 00:21:12,880 --> 00:21:18,560 That same process can be Co opted by basically monopolized 350 00:21:18,560 --> 00:21:22,120 forces. So we can turn into, you know, 351 00:21:22,200 --> 00:21:27,520 the, the government monopolizing that process of running a mint 352 00:21:27,520 --> 00:21:32,040 so that only we can do it. And they stamp, you know, 353 00:21:32,480 --> 00:21:36,160 national symbols onto it, whether it's a a person or, or 354 00:21:36,160 --> 00:21:43,120 something else that people begin to then see legitimacy of that 355 00:21:43,120 --> 00:21:48,440 currency coming from that national emblem more than the 356 00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:52,200 process for which they were finding themselves needing to, 357 00:21:53,320 --> 00:21:55,400 you know, stamp the thing in the 1st place. 358 00:21:55,400 --> 00:21:57,080 So if, if that makes sense. It's like, yeah. 359 00:21:57,600 --> 00:22:00,680 Yeah, yeah. So, so people start to they, 360 00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:04,120 they kind of get tricked right where it's you, you are 361 00:22:04,120 --> 00:22:07,240 mistaking the fact that the government is the one minting it 362 00:22:07,240 --> 00:22:10,440 for the government having to be the one to mint it. 363 00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:16,320 Whereas the actual process of it was that minting was a, a 364 00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:24,120 necessary component of a metals market because it, it it's, you 365 00:22:24,120 --> 00:22:27,200 know, difficult to do your own metals saying all the time. 366 00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:30,400 And so you have these things. And when the state starts 367 00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:35,000 monopolizing that people now treat it as though that's they, 368 00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:38,200 they forget that prior story of money. 369 00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:41,040 And I think that happens a lot with Fiat. 370 00:22:41,040 --> 00:22:46,160 And so people think that a, a money is only a legitimate money 371 00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:48,040 if it's coming from the government. 372 00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:53,760 And so we base our our judgement of how well Bitcoin is doing in 373 00:22:53,760 --> 00:22:57,600 the market based on, you know, how much is the government 374 00:22:58,160 --> 00:23:01,680 explicitly supporting it or, or something like that as opposed 375 00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:05,480 to, you know, well, that would that would actually be, I think 376 00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:09,440 a positive sign in many senses if the the government was just 377 00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:11,000 explicitly like, yeah, we're Bitcoin now. 378 00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:13,160 Like, you know, El Salvador being an example. 379 00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:19,040 At the same time, if, if you have an understanding that money 380 00:23:19,040 --> 00:23:22,120 is something that originates in the marketplace, you can, 381 00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:27,800 instead of looking for different institutional validity 382 00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:33,200 validations of Bitcoin, you could look for market indicators 383 00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:35,840 of Bitcoin success. And this would come in the form 384 00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:42,000 of, well, how, how much reserve demand can we see in, in 385 00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:44,040 Bitcoin? So how much are people, how much 386 00:23:44,040 --> 00:23:47,720 are people holding it? What's the, the, the price, you 387 00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:51,680 know, in market cap relative to how much is being held? 388 00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:55,880 And you know, how much is actually being transferred on 389 00:23:55,880 --> 00:23:58,680 the account. So I you know, Bitcoin 390 00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:01,280 transfers, I believe, you know, over a trillion dollars every 391 00:24:01,280 --> 00:24:05,360 year, which is a staggering amount of of economic activity 392 00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:08,760 and that's happening all in the market, whether there is someone 393 00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:11,240 giving it their stamp of approval or not. 394 00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:15,680 Clearly the the the market is giving it its stamp of approval 395 00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:17,680 to summer degree. So I think that's a way that 396 00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:23,920 Fiat people can have difficulty with this is they get confused 397 00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:27,760 one by not thinking about the kind of from this view of 398 00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:30,800 uncertainties, but just in oh, it's just this thing that we use 399 00:24:31,480 --> 00:24:35,200 to to buy stuff. But then on top of that, they 400 00:24:35,560 --> 00:24:40,240 have taken hook, line and sinker the the story that the 401 00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:43,520 government having had monopolized things then is the 402 00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:47,600 source of all things good when it comes to money, as opposed to 403 00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:51,840 maybe they actually were even solving something to some degree 404 00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:55,600 at some point. But they're they're ultimately 405 00:24:55,600 --> 00:25:01,840 doing that at at best in a sub optimal way relative to what 406 00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:05,200 money could be if you look at what Bitcoin has to offer. 407 00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:11,280 Yeah, I think that's a that that that last part is a fairly 408 00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:13,480 friendly conclusion, I would say. 409 00:25:14,120 --> 00:25:18,640 But you know about that. They're doing it in a suboptimal 410 00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:19,960 way, right? But you know I. 411 00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:22,360 Try to be nice here. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 412 00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:26,480 What I get from this is that, you know, people don't ask the 413 00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:29,360 question, what is money? Also, because especially in the 414 00:25:29,360 --> 00:25:31,840 Western world, you don't, you're not really challenged, right, to 415 00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:35,480 ask that question. Perhaps kind of up until now or 416 00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:39,000 like after, after COVID where you, you're more people are 417 00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:41,680 really aware of money printing and the debasement and all these 418 00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:43,960 things. At least that's what we think we 419 00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:45,440 see. But I'm not, I'm not sure about 420 00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:49,520 that yet. By the way, you know, we don't 421 00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:52,040 get taught this in school, but the people who get taught, you 422 00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:55,200 know, basic economic education in high school or, you know, 423 00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:57,880 university or, you know, if you do an economic study that's 424 00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:02,280 based on Keynesian ideas, right from from Keynes. 425 00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:05,760 But there's this other School of Economics, as you mentioned, 426 00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:08,400 Austrian, Austrian School of Economics. 427 00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:13,680 And I wanted to ask you, what's what are the differences there? 428 00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:17,600 And also how, how did you know this Austrian school influence 429 00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:20,920 your thinking about Bitcoin? One thing I wanted to just add 430 00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:23,840 to that as a note based on, on what you just said, I recently 431 00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:27,280 realized that, you know, the Keynesian model or what they 432 00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:29,600 follow in the, in the in the field money world, you know, 433 00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:36,000 it's kind of like we have a philosophy for money and we set 434 00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:38,960 the rules for that. We, as you know, the, the people 435 00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:41,800 in charge of government. But because the philosophy is 436 00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:45,400 kind of kind of flawed, they change the rules all the time. 437 00:26:46,120 --> 00:26:52,520 And you know, if you have the a philosophy about hard money, 438 00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:56,680 like the Austrian school has, right, you basically let that 439 00:26:56,680 --> 00:26:59,960 philosophy or that that idea for hard money, you let it out into 440 00:26:59,960 --> 00:27:04,160 the marketplace. Someone comes up with this rules 441 00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:08,080 based money system, which is Bitcoin that cannot be changed. 442 00:27:08,120 --> 00:27:13,440 And from that the actual, you know, how do you say like the 443 00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:16,720 effect of that initial philosophy will show its way 444 00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:19,680 into that marketplace? And I recently just realized for 445 00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:21,480 me, that's the biggest contradiction, right? 446 00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:24,920 It's either flawed philosophy and then flawed rules that just 447 00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:29,960 change all the time, right? Or it's just, yeah, an open 448 00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:34,840 philosophy set of rules and that yeah, it's just a is is more of 449 00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:38,280 a free market than than than than other thing. 450 00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:40,560 But yeah, so the the question is like what is kind of the 451 00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:44,200 difference and and how did it evolve your faults around 452 00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:47,440 Bitcoin? Yeah, well, the, The funny thing 453 00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:51,240 for me is I, I learned about Austrian economics sort of 454 00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:54,600 before I, I learned any Keynesian economics. 455 00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:57,760 And so, you know, there's, there's a lot of people they, 456 00:27:57,760 --> 00:28:00,080 they had to sit through, you know, many economics classes and 457 00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:04,880 they probably actually know more about sort of Keynesian models 458 00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:07,080 than I do. And then they later found 459 00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:11,240 Austrian stuff. I, I learned Austrian economics 460 00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:15,880 first and the, the Keynesian stuff. 461 00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:21,800 I'm, I'm less of a, an expert on more of a, you know, the, the, 462 00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:24,280 the arguments just simply never make sense. 463 00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:26,720 Like you said, it's just like it's, it's flawed 464 00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:29,080 philosophically. And so it's just like you're 465 00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:31,880 just talking crazy talk. And so Keynesian economics is 466 00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:35,360 something less to study because you're trying to get like an 467 00:28:35,360 --> 00:28:39,000 alternative view of economics and more of something you would 468 00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:45,840 study to, you know, understand what is going through the minds 469 00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:52,360 of the people trying to, you know, destroy your life through 470 00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:54,640 all kinds of, you know, government action and, and, and 471 00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:58,120 such. But, you know, I, I, I would say 472 00:28:58,120 --> 00:29:01,400 like, you know, a, a big difference is Keynesian 473 00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:06,040 economics is, is primarily, you know, kind of focused on a lot 474 00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:09,640 of economic aggregates. And so a lot of it's modelling 475 00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:13,600 has to do with, you know, looking at aggregate demand and, 476 00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:18,480 and you know, how, how these things affect employment and so 477 00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:21,640 on and so forth. And because of that, Keynesian 478 00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:28,520 economics and a Keynesian economic kind of view tends to 479 00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:35,520 view the, the market as a, a sort of, there is something you 480 00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:38,720 can, you can sort of control. Like there's a lot of different 481 00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:43,840 levers you can pull to change to, to change the factors that 482 00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:47,320 change the, the economic conditions of these these 483 00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:49,720 aggregates. And through that, you can kind 484 00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:55,440 of like guide the economy in some correct direction. 485 00:29:56,280 --> 00:29:58,360 Well, basically human behavior, right? 486 00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:01,000 That's the goal. They want to influence our 487 00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:03,360 behavior by pulling these levers. 488 00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:07,160 Yes, and and doing it from the sort of like aggregate point of 489 00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:08,720 view. So in some sense there was just 490 00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:14,040 a bunch of, you know, statistics and, you know, inputs rather 491 00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:15,680 than like, you know, actual humans. 492 00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:23,600 The, the Austrian school is, is less based on, on looking at 493 00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:27,280 these, you know, large, you know, data points and trying to, 494 00:30:27,320 --> 00:30:29,040 to, to move them in certain directions. 495 00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:35,600 And starting with the basis of, of human action and trying to 496 00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:41,040 logically deduce the necessary implications of the fact that 497 00:30:41,040 --> 00:30:45,040 you have human actors acting. And if you're acting in a world 498 00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:50,400 of scarcity, like what, what does that mean for, for you know 499 00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:52,120 what, what is that logic of choice? 500 00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:55,080 You know, the fact that you can't choose A and not A at the 501 00:30:55,080 --> 00:30:59,480 same time means that you know, you can you can glean certain 502 00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:04,400 things about that economically. And so it's it's less dealing 503 00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:09,360 with quantitative measurements instead looking at qualitative 504 00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:13,680 stuff. And I think by nature, those two 505 00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:19,920 viewpoints, Keynesians tend to be a much more top down look at 506 00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:23,520 the economy of oh, the economy is in a certain way. 507 00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:26,400 So we need to pull these levers so we can get it back on track. 508 00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:30,280 Whereas the Austrian school is instead trying to understand 509 00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:36,200 what is the the logic of those individuals that make up that 510 00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:40,360 that economy and just try to understand why it is they do the 511 00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:44,080 things they do and what are the sort of necessary implications 512 00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:46,200 of what they do and going from there. 513 00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:51,000 And this leads to very different views of a number of things. 514 00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:58,480 So for instance, you know, I, I think uncertainty, you know, is 515 00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:00,600 one thing that I, that I mentioned, I think Austrians 516 00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:03,920 have a, a much more thorough view of that. 517 00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:07,400 I'm sure some, some Keynesian expert can come and, and tell me 518 00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:14,440 why I'm wrong about everything. But there's also so like for 519 00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:20,640 instance, capital in a Keynesian model or even, you know, 520 00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:24,120 neoclassical models that they they themselves are sort of 521 00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:27,360 against. But a lot of a lot of non 522 00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:31,680 Austrian economics views things like capital as what we would 523 00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:35,320 say is like sort of homogeneous. Like it's just all, it's all 524 00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:37,680 just units. Like you just have a factory 525 00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:41,800 that just makes a thing, you know, it just makes, it makes 526 00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:47,160 widgets that give people utils. If you sat through an economics 527 00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:49,240 class, you've probably had to deal with people talking about 528 00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:52,080 like widgets and noodles and, and all that kind of stuff. 529 00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:54,080 And so it's all just, it's all just whatever. 530 00:32:54,080 --> 00:32:58,360 It's just factories. Whereas in, in the Austrian 531 00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:02,320 school, there's a heavy emphasis on time and sort of the 532 00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:07,560 heterogeneity of circumstance and, and goods and such. 533 00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:11,400 So it's like you don't just have a factory, you have a car 534 00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:15,080 factory or a pencil factory or some other factory. 535 00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:18,840 And because of that, when you look at how you would, you would 536 00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:22,480 want to change an economy, you know, if you're an entrepreneur, 537 00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:24,440 you're someone who wants to change the economy because you 538 00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:25,920 want to be producing something else. 539 00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:28,640 You can't look at it and just be like, oh, let me just snap my 540 00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:31,040 finger. And these models for just 541 00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:34,080 factories. Now you have whatever magical 542 00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:37,680 factory you want. Instead, you actually recognize 543 00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:42,080 that if you have a car factory and you now want to make 544 00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:46,240 pencils, it is going to take time and resources to actually 545 00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:50,000 just to get from the car factory to the pencil factory. 546 00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:55,240 And that has that has many implications about how we look 547 00:33:55,320 --> 00:33:59,160 at the, the economy. It's going to change how we look 548 00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:01,480 at money. Like all all these things, these 549 00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:04,800 these sort of differences in view just have, have radically 550 00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:07,800 different views of, of money and the economy. 551 00:34:08,159 --> 00:34:12,000 And I think, you know, one of the notable things that is, is 552 00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:17,600 sort of the business cycle where Keynesians tend to look at the 553 00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:21,159 business cycle as you know, you have this boom in the bust. 554 00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:24,280 When the bust happens, well, something bad happens and we 555 00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:27,400 need to go, you know, address that. 556 00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:32,120 Whereas Austrians tend to view the boom and bust of like, well, 557 00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:35,040 why was the boom happening in the 1st place? 558 00:34:36,080 --> 00:34:39,159 And you know, we, we, we could get into the details of that, 559 00:34:39,159 --> 00:34:41,280 but basically it's, it's looking at a different thing. 560 00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:43,840 If you want like the really basic version of that, there's 561 00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:49,040 the Hayek Canes rap that covers it pretty well at a very, very 562 00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:51,040 high level. Nice. 563 00:34:51,199 --> 00:34:53,000 I will, I will look that up. Yeah. 564 00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:56,920 So what I know from Austrian economics is it kind of also 565 00:34:56,920 --> 00:35:02,640 emphasizes on the psychological act aspects of of the economic 566 00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:06,720 behavior, right. I, I had a recording with Seth 567 00:35:06,720 --> 00:35:09,640 Bunny and then we talked about money and it was really 568 00:35:09,640 --> 00:35:12,360 interesting. He said money is like a a tool 569 00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:15,400 to express value. I thought it was very that that 570 00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:16,680 wasn't like an interesting fault, right? 571 00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:18,760 Like what I spend my economic energy on. 572 00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:24,040 It's a kind of an expression of my, my tastes, needs, wants, 573 00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:28,960 interest, what whatever. But yeah, these psychological 574 00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:32,920 aspects of of this economic behavior, how, how does Bitcoin 575 00:35:32,920 --> 00:35:37,200 then fit into this with the characteristics that that it has 576 00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:40,160 in this also like Austrian, Austrian model, why does it 577 00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:44,040 align with that? Well, so, yeah, I'd agree. 578 00:35:44,040 --> 00:35:48,440 So Austrian focuses on sort of things like subjective value, 579 00:35:49,240 --> 00:35:53,240 which which mean that, you know, a given good is not going to 580 00:35:53,240 --> 00:35:56,040 have the same value in a different place and time. 581 00:35:56,960 --> 00:35:58,920 You know, there's the classic, if you're, if you're in the 582 00:35:58,920 --> 00:36:02,520 middle of a desert, a bottle of water is going to have a lot 583 00:36:02,520 --> 00:36:08,960 more value than if you are just, you know, in a, in a city or 584 00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:14,640 something. And then there's also marginal, 585 00:36:15,160 --> 00:36:19,560 you know, the marginal value and marginalism, which is looking at 586 00:36:19,560 --> 00:36:23,800 economic action at the margin. So each each sort of individual 587 00:36:23,800 --> 00:36:28,760 action. I like the idea about the, the, 588 00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:32,560 the uncertainty in the in the future, right that that you 589 00:36:32,560 --> 00:36:34,800 alluded to earlier. As you know, the future is 590 00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:38,760 uncertain for everyone. So if I take risk right now with 591 00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:43,000 my job or my venture, and I gather this economic, you know, 592 00:36:43,160 --> 00:36:47,240 energy that is represented with, with the money that we use in 593 00:36:48,880 --> 00:36:54,160 like engine money system, that money is debased right on, on 594 00:36:54,160 --> 00:36:59,560 purpose with two percent or, you know, in, in reality, it's, it's 595 00:36:59,560 --> 00:37:03,120 all way more right. But so, and, and also, as you 596 00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:07,480 said before, I think correctly, you know, the fact that that 597 00:37:07,720 --> 00:37:10,680 money is debased into the future makes your future like double 598 00:37:10,680 --> 00:37:12,760 uncertain. There's no like 2 factors that 599 00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:16,800 make your future uncertain. And if you have a hard money 600 00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:20,600 that is not debased, you know, 11 Bitcoin now is one Bitcoin in 601 00:37:20,600 --> 00:37:26,760 10 years, that actually reduces the uncertainty of the future in 602 00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:30,240 some way because you have a tool that you can bring towards the 603 00:37:30,240 --> 00:37:33,760 future. Yeah, I guess what I would say 604 00:37:33,760 --> 00:37:39,480 there is that, you know, that sort of subjectivity and so on 605 00:37:39,480 --> 00:37:45,120 and that need to express value in some way that is just, that 606 00:37:45,120 --> 00:37:47,320 is an inherent part of being human. 607 00:37:47,720 --> 00:37:52,320 You know, you, you can't, you can't not act without all of 608 00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:55,840 that stuff being implied by the fact that you are making any 609 00:37:55,840 --> 00:37:58,520 choices in the 1st place. Like I said, if you're, if 610 00:37:58,520 --> 00:38:04,080 you're choosing a instead of not a, which you know, if, if, 611 00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:07,240 what's the, there's a, there's a rush line of like, if you choose 612 00:38:07,240 --> 00:38:09,080 not to decide, you still have made a choice. 613 00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:11,640 It's like you can't not be acting. 614 00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:15,840 And when you make that choice, you are choosing one thing over 615 00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:20,360 another, which is necessarily meaning you prefer something to 616 00:38:20,360 --> 00:38:23,880 something else. So you are expressing a, a value 617 00:38:24,480 --> 00:38:27,840 judgment in in some way through that act. 618 00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:32,280 And this is, this is the basis of literally all of economic 619 00:38:32,280 --> 00:38:35,400 action and economic choice. And thus, you know, it's at the 620 00:38:35,400 --> 00:38:42,440 basis of of all of our lives, everything we do to to, you 621 00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:45,720 know, go through this world is caught up in that. 622 00:38:46,560 --> 00:38:49,000 And that's a it's, it's a wonderful and beautiful thing, 623 00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:55,960 but not every money is going to give you the same ability to 624 00:38:56,160 --> 00:39:00,200 express that value. So if you, like you said, you 625 00:39:00,200 --> 00:39:02,680 know, you're pointing at money being debased. 626 00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:08,920 If money is being debased, then you can't, you can't express 627 00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:16,120 your, your values as fully because in the sense that you 628 00:39:16,120 --> 00:39:19,680 know, you, you may have predicted that you would have 629 00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:22,800 been, you know, sometime in the future I'll be able to do X 630 00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:25,160 thing and I'll be able to express my value in some way 631 00:39:25,160 --> 00:39:28,080 because I, I want to buy this, this thing that I want or 632 00:39:28,080 --> 00:39:31,200 whatever. If your money is debased from 633 00:39:31,200 --> 00:39:36,520 underneath you, now you get to that point and realize it's 634 00:39:36,520 --> 00:39:39,080 like, oh, now I have to work harder just to express that 635 00:39:39,080 --> 00:39:43,560 value of mine. And so when you're able to 636 00:39:44,120 --> 00:39:49,680 actually put money into savings, your, your labor is, is actually 637 00:39:50,040 --> 00:39:56,480 able to be directed to economic value that is actually valuable 638 00:39:56,480 --> 00:40:03,000 to you and not valuable to, you know, just just some external 639 00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:06,520 force. So another way to think about 640 00:40:06,520 --> 00:40:10,640 that is the, you know, we, we talked about inflation almost 641 00:40:10,640 --> 00:40:15,320 being like a stealth tax because you know, there's, you know, we 642 00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:19,680 talked about cancel on effects, where when, when new money comes 643 00:40:19,680 --> 00:40:23,480 out, it's, it's not going to everyone all at once. 644 00:40:23,480 --> 00:40:26,000 In fact, if you did that, the whole thing would be pointless. 645 00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:30,560 It's going to the friends of the money printer first. 646 00:40:31,200 --> 00:40:34,480 And so those people get to to reap the benefits of having 647 00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:37,120 newly printed money at the expense of everyone else. 648 00:40:37,360 --> 00:40:42,280 And so everyone else effectively sort of loses out at whatever 649 00:40:42,280 --> 00:40:45,320 that sort of rate is. And so we, we, we talk about 650 00:40:45,320 --> 00:40:50,880 that as as the, the, the cancel on effect when that happens, 651 00:40:50,880 --> 00:40:53,720 What that means is whatever organization it is, you know, 652 00:40:53,720 --> 00:40:57,000 that's printing the money and effectively inflating that away. 653 00:40:58,240 --> 00:41:05,680 They are simultaneously taking away your ability to take the, 654 00:41:05,960 --> 00:41:12,400 the labor you were doing and being able to sort of use that, 655 00:41:12,640 --> 00:41:16,320 you know, whatever economic value you created to go express 656 00:41:16,320 --> 00:41:20,160 that elsewhere in the market to actually suit what you need out 657 00:41:20,160 --> 00:41:23,680 of the market as opposed to, you know, giving to others what they 658 00:41:23,680 --> 00:41:25,120 need out of the market. So they'll pay you. 659 00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:31,720 So they're simultaneously taking that away while also deciding 660 00:41:31,720 --> 00:41:34,160 for you where that value should go. 661 00:41:35,160 --> 00:41:38,960 And, you know, unfortunately, in the the age of central banking, 662 00:41:38,960 --> 00:41:41,600 you know, is the, the great Ron Paul said, you know, it's, it's 663 00:41:41,600 --> 00:41:45,720 no coincidence that the, you know, the century of central 664 00:41:45,720 --> 00:41:48,120 banking was also the century of Total War. 665 00:41:49,000 --> 00:41:50,680 So what do we see that going towards? 666 00:41:50,680 --> 00:41:53,720 It's like, you know, your, your value, rather than being 667 00:41:53,720 --> 00:41:58,240 expressed in, you know, more, more gifts for your family and 668 00:41:58,240 --> 00:42:02,440 more, more charity and more, more wonderful businesses making 669 00:42:02,440 --> 00:42:06,120 nice things that people want. That value is being expressed 670 00:42:06,160 --> 00:42:12,320 as, you know, drone strikes and you know, all, all, all sorts of 671 00:42:12,920 --> 00:42:18,920 extremely, you know, nasty, violent affairs and, you know, 672 00:42:18,920 --> 00:42:23,040 like war. So that's a it's, it's 673 00:42:23,160 --> 00:42:26,200 disturbing to even think on, which is why I'm going to I, I 674 00:42:26,200 --> 00:42:28,200 speak about it with such euphemism because I don't want 675 00:42:28,200 --> 00:42:32,240 to get too angry here. But you know that that that's 676 00:42:32,240 --> 00:42:36,360 showing us how when you have a sound money that's under your 677 00:42:36,360 --> 00:42:41,320 control, you can actually express your value properly in 678 00:42:41,320 --> 00:42:43,880 the marketplace. Whereas when you have the people 679 00:42:44,160 --> 00:42:48,040 debasing your money and making it harder for you to act in the 680 00:42:48,040 --> 00:42:53,760 economy, it's coming with that double whammy of not only taking 681 00:42:53,760 --> 00:42:56,440 away your ability to actually get what you need out of the 682 00:42:56,440 --> 00:43:00,000 market and and be expressing your values in the marketplace, 683 00:43:00,560 --> 00:43:06,880 but also often times working against you by using those 684 00:43:06,920 --> 00:43:11,520 those, you know, sort of inflated, you know, cancel on, 685 00:43:12,120 --> 00:43:16,960 cancel on, you know, bucks towards things that are 686 00:43:17,920 --> 00:43:20,000 detrimental to you, to say the least. 687 00:43:20,760 --> 00:43:23,200 Yeah. So basically, you know the the 688 00:43:23,200 --> 00:43:25,760 cantillon affect the people that are closest to the money printer 689 00:43:25,760 --> 00:43:31,280 can spend the new money without that new money being debased, 690 00:43:31,400 --> 00:43:32,040 right. That's. 691 00:43:32,080 --> 00:43:35,720 That's so their values get to be expressed in the market when 692 00:43:35,720 --> 00:43:38,480 they it was supposed to be your values expressed. 693 00:43:38,720 --> 00:43:40,680 Exactly, Yeah. And when you said external 694 00:43:40,680 --> 00:43:43,600 factor, I think that's an interesting term, right? 695 00:43:43,640 --> 00:43:49,360 Because it, the, one of the, the core things of this Keynesian 696 00:43:49,360 --> 00:43:54,400 money philosophy is this 2% inflation or basically, well, 697 00:43:54,400 --> 00:43:55,680 inflation of the money supply, right? 698 00:43:55,680 --> 00:43:58,400 So 2% debasement of the value of the money. 699 00:43:58,640 --> 00:44:02,840 So it's already at the core of you being nudged to spend this 700 00:44:02,840 --> 00:44:04,920 money, right? And you hear this argument a 701 00:44:04,920 --> 00:44:07,280 lot, right? But 2% inflation is good because 702 00:44:07,280 --> 00:44:09,640 it helps keep grow the economy, right? 703 00:44:10,560 --> 00:44:16,120 But as you just explained, how free are you then to move or or 704 00:44:16,120 --> 00:44:19,760 express your value in this economy when you are basically 705 00:44:19,760 --> 00:44:22,320 forced? Notched is a friendly word, 706 00:44:22,320 --> 00:44:25,920 right? Notched to to spend the money 707 00:44:25,920 --> 00:44:28,240 that you earn, right. And, and we shouldn't be 708 00:44:28,440 --> 00:44:33,480 surprised that there's not that many people that I don't know, 709 00:44:33,560 --> 00:44:37,000 save up for five years and then build something like the Trevi 710 00:44:37,000 --> 00:44:40,080 Fountain or some cathedral or something that is actually 711 00:44:40,080 --> 00:44:43,240 beautiful, right? And not like are, are are are 712 00:44:43,240 --> 00:44:45,120 valuable. I mean, we could talk about food 713 00:44:45,120 --> 00:44:49,920 and like, like if you are not to spend in the quickest way 714 00:44:49,920 --> 00:44:53,720 possible, you are also not to build quote UN quote in the 715 00:44:53,720 --> 00:44:56,320 quickest way possible because you have to capture that, that 716 00:44:56,320 --> 00:45:00,280 money that is constantly moving as also something that Sep said 717 00:45:00,280 --> 00:45:02,760 that to me, which I, which I thought was really nice 718 00:45:04,040 --> 00:45:06,160 thoughts. Like all the money that you have 719 00:45:06,160 --> 00:45:09,800 right now is worth the most right now, you know, So you have 720 00:45:09,800 --> 00:45:12,720 to, you have to, you have to spend it. 721 00:45:12,760 --> 00:45:16,320 And that's why people are also competing to, to gather that 722 00:45:16,320 --> 00:45:20,280 money quickly, right, as the producers of, of, of goods and 723 00:45:20,280 --> 00:45:25,640 services, because they know in either conscious or not that, 724 00:45:25,840 --> 00:45:30,680 yeah, if they, if it takes too long to earn money, it'll be of 725 00:45:30,680 --> 00:45:33,040 less and less and less value over time. 726 00:45:33,040 --> 00:45:35,840 And that's also why all the, the quality of our products, 727 00:45:35,840 --> 00:45:39,520 services, food, all these things go, go down because basically 728 00:45:39,520 --> 00:45:43,520 people have no time to create something that has value. 729 00:45:43,600 --> 00:45:44,920 They're not incentivized. So. 730 00:45:46,080 --> 00:45:50,120 Yeah, they, they, they don't have time, but they also none of 731 00:45:50,120 --> 00:45:54,640 their work is able to produce as much as it otherwise would. 732 00:45:55,800 --> 00:46:00,480 You, you if, if your money is losing 2%, which you know, at 733 00:46:00,480 --> 00:46:02,560 least in the United States, I know that's much higher. 734 00:46:02,560 --> 00:46:05,160 In most places it's even much higher than that. 735 00:46:05,800 --> 00:46:08,240 I would say in the United States, I think it's probably 736 00:46:08,240 --> 00:46:10,320 more like 12 to 20% or something like that. 737 00:46:12,720 --> 00:46:16,360 When that's the case, you have to literally work 12 to 20% 738 00:46:17,080 --> 00:46:21,560 harder every single year just to just to have what you had. 739 00:46:21,920 --> 00:46:25,600 And so, you know, it's, it's a little difficult, obviously with 740 00:46:25,760 --> 00:46:30,560 technological progress, you can kind of kind of mask over some 741 00:46:30,560 --> 00:46:34,400 of this because your productivity grows, but you 742 00:46:34,400 --> 00:46:37,360 still have the, the unseen, which is with that same 743 00:46:37,360 --> 00:46:42,560 technology, you would have been making even more productivity 744 00:46:44,640 --> 00:46:49,440 had, had they not been siphoning wealth off underneath. 745 00:46:51,000 --> 00:46:55,200 And and so it, yeah, it's, it's harder for, for people to kind 746 00:46:55,200 --> 00:46:58,600 of think straight about their long term future and think 747 00:46:58,600 --> 00:47:01,440 about, you know, what values do I want to express? 748 00:47:01,440 --> 00:47:04,800 Not just now because like right now, like I, I have the most 749 00:47:04,800 --> 00:47:07,920 like base animalistic feelings like, oh, I want to go, I want 750 00:47:07,920 --> 00:47:09,520 to go get a drink. I want to go get some. 751 00:47:09,800 --> 00:47:10,720 Some food to. Eat. 752 00:47:10,960 --> 00:47:14,440 You know, it's just like very, very base things. 753 00:47:14,440 --> 00:47:17,240 That's what I'm thinking about, you know, as far as right now 754 00:47:18,000 --> 00:47:22,960 where real economic development happens, where where real sort 755 00:47:22,960 --> 00:47:27,040 of civilizational progress happens is being able to look 756 00:47:27,040 --> 00:47:31,840 into the future of what am I willing to give up now because I 757 00:47:31,840 --> 00:47:34,760 really want that amazing thing in the future. 758 00:47:35,080 --> 00:47:37,600 But when you're, when you're having to work harder 759 00:47:39,200 --> 00:47:43,840 essentially for less, that time horizon shortens and your time 760 00:47:43,840 --> 00:47:48,520 preference increases and you are just more focused on the now, 761 00:47:48,520 --> 00:47:51,880 which, like I said, just like tends you more towards just the 762 00:47:52,320 --> 00:47:55,720 sort of base instincts of just, you know, wanted to get fed, get 763 00:47:55,720 --> 00:48:00,720 your belly full, as opposed to more long term things, which I 764 00:48:00,720 --> 00:48:03,480 think are going to do things more like, you know, nourish 765 00:48:03,480 --> 00:48:08,040 your soul, which is is, you know, kind of ultimately going 766 00:48:08,040 --> 00:48:12,000 to lead to, to sort of greater prosperity. 767 00:48:13,040 --> 00:48:16,680 You know, I, I would say even, you know, materialistically, but 768 00:48:16,680 --> 00:48:22,960 also, you know, you know, in many senses spiritually as well, 769 00:48:23,480 --> 00:48:26,880 because you have that, that freedom to, to contemplate and 770 00:48:26,880 --> 00:48:31,080 think about, you know, what is good in life and, and have the 771 00:48:31,080 --> 00:48:35,360 proper thanks for that. Yeah, yeah, I, I, I fully agree. 772 00:48:35,360 --> 00:48:38,360 I I talk a lot about this on on the podcast. 773 00:48:38,360 --> 00:48:42,680 This is, I think could be one of the talking points that triggers 774 00:48:42,680 --> 00:48:45,120 people to also look into it more, right? 775 00:48:45,120 --> 00:48:47,280 I mean, I, I also wanted to ask you about risk. 776 00:48:47,280 --> 00:48:50,560 I think, you know, subconsciously people are taking 777 00:48:50,840 --> 00:48:56,640 more risk than they they could be taking if they would adopt A 778 00:48:56,640 --> 00:48:59,520 hard, hard money that helps them save their economic energy 779 00:48:59,520 --> 00:49:01,880 towards the future, right? Because, yeah, if you come home 780 00:49:01,880 --> 00:49:04,800 from your your job or your venture, which is basically 781 00:49:04,800 --> 00:49:07,520 taking risk because you take it, you make a choice, right? 782 00:49:07,520 --> 00:49:10,120 As you said before, you make a choice to do something to earn 783 00:49:10,120 --> 00:49:12,360 this economic energy. But then when you were at home 784 00:49:12,360 --> 00:49:15,400 and this external factor already debased the money that you 785 00:49:15,960 --> 00:49:18,200 basically earn today, you have to take more risk to even 786 00:49:18,200 --> 00:49:21,320 mitigate, mitigate that, right? So you are. 787 00:49:22,400 --> 00:49:23,480 Yeah. You can never stop. 788 00:49:23,960 --> 00:49:25,960 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. 789 00:49:25,960 --> 00:49:29,600 You have to, you have to get into Sigma grind sets and you 790 00:49:29,600 --> 00:49:31,640 got to, you got to hustle, you know? 791 00:49:32,040 --> 00:49:35,640 Exactly you. Need 10 side projects and if 792 00:49:35,640 --> 00:49:38,120 you're not making millions of dollars right now offline, 793 00:49:38,400 --> 00:49:46,120 you're losing. But if Bitcoin is this hardest 794 00:49:46,120 --> 00:49:51,000 money to ever exist and, and the best way to preserve and store 795 00:49:51,000 --> 00:49:53,760 your, your economic energy, right, why is it still 796 00:49:53,760 --> 00:49:57,880 classified or viewed as this like risk on risk off asset by, 797 00:49:57,920 --> 00:50:00,880 you know, people who talk about this stuff like in my honest 798 00:50:00,880 --> 00:50:04,400 opinion, this is the lowest risk asset you can own, you know, so 799 00:50:04,400 --> 00:50:06,280 where does this dichotomy come come from? 800 00:50:06,800 --> 00:50:09,280 So I think this is another funny one for me because, you know, 801 00:50:09,280 --> 00:50:11,760 just in the in the same way that it's like I learned Austrian 802 00:50:11,760 --> 00:50:14,880 economics before I learned Keynesian economics, It's like I 803 00:50:14,880 --> 00:50:18,200 became a Bitcoiner before I ever had like a a real interest in 804 00:50:18,200 --> 00:50:21,560 finance. So, you know, things like, you 805 00:50:21,560 --> 00:50:25,600 know, stock markets, bonds, you know, stocks, bonds, you know, 806 00:50:25,600 --> 00:50:27,920 all all these sorts of, you know, real estate, all these 807 00:50:27,920 --> 00:50:33,480 sorts of things. I was coming into that already, 808 00:50:33,480 --> 00:50:37,160 already into Bitcoin. And so it wasn't coming from the 809 00:50:37,160 --> 00:50:41,720 perspective of Bitcoin having the burden, burden of proof 810 00:50:41,720 --> 00:50:44,640 needing to prove itself why you should go buy some Bitcoin. 811 00:50:44,880 --> 00:50:48,680 It was OK, well, I have Bitcoin like, why is it that I should 812 00:50:48,680 --> 00:50:52,760 buy this stock? And there weren't a lot of like 813 00:50:52,760 --> 00:50:57,000 good reasons, good economic reasons for me to go buy a bunch 814 00:50:57,000 --> 00:50:59,840 of equities or something or like bonds. 815 00:50:59,840 --> 00:51:03,120 Like it just it didn't really didn't do it for me. 816 00:51:04,680 --> 00:51:11,320 So I think a lot of that, that talk is, I mean, my, my gut 817 00:51:11,320 --> 00:51:15,640 feeling, just as someone who's from the outside on this, you 818 00:51:15,640 --> 00:51:21,280 know, just coming in as a, a sort of natural bitcoiner, a 819 00:51:21,280 --> 00:51:25,440 native Bitcoiner, I think those people are just caught in the, 820 00:51:25,520 --> 00:51:30,360 the, you know, Fiat mindset of, of how to think about these, 821 00:51:30,400 --> 00:51:33,200 these assets. So it's like, you know, they're 822 00:51:33,200 --> 00:51:36,400 they're thinking about even just like the concept of risk and 823 00:51:36,400 --> 00:51:42,600 stuff from a sort of Fiat mentality of the playing the 824 00:51:42,600 --> 00:51:45,520 Fiat game and trying to win with a Fiat scoreboard. 825 00:51:46,040 --> 00:51:48,920 Whereas I don't, I don't have that same Fiat scoreboard. 826 00:51:49,000 --> 00:51:54,240 And so to me, risk has just natively has more to do with 827 00:51:55,360 --> 00:52:00,080 will I do I have a chance of ending up with fewer amount of 828 00:52:00,920 --> 00:52:04,000 Satoshi's in my stack? And if that's the case, it's 829 00:52:04,000 --> 00:52:06,200 like, well, that I don't know, that sounds risky. 830 00:52:06,200 --> 00:52:09,760 I don't know that that to me is a risk on event is a chance to 831 00:52:09,760 --> 00:52:13,360 to lose your Satoshi's. So I come at it from just like 832 00:52:13,360 --> 00:52:15,440 this, this native Bitcoiner perspective. 833 00:52:15,520 --> 00:52:19,200 And to me, the, the burden of proof on that is on them to tell 834 00:52:19,200 --> 00:52:24,080 me like, you know, why, why that's kind of incorrect. 835 00:52:24,080 --> 00:52:29,320 And hopefully from a Bitcoin perspective, But yeah, I, I, I 836 00:52:29,320 --> 00:52:31,040 think they, they are playing the Fiat game. 837 00:52:31,280 --> 00:52:36,400 And so even in so far as there are various risks that we could 838 00:52:36,400 --> 00:52:41,320 talk about with owning Bitcoin of, you know, the, the risks of 839 00:52:41,320 --> 00:52:47,320 losing your keys, the risks of, you know, a, you know, if you're 840 00:52:47,320 --> 00:52:51,680 using a custodian, the risks of, of using a custodian, the risks 841 00:52:51,800 --> 00:52:55,920 of, you know, your Lightning hot wallet getting hacked or the 842 00:52:55,920 --> 00:53:00,120 risk of a bug being introduced to the Bitcoin code base and so 843 00:53:00,120 --> 00:53:01,440 on and so forth. We can talk. 844 00:53:01,480 --> 00:53:03,480 They're all of these are, are real risks. 845 00:53:04,320 --> 00:53:10,560 But when they're talking about it, they're not, they're just 846 00:53:10,560 --> 00:53:12,400 not, they're not. They're thinking about it from 847 00:53:12,400 --> 00:53:16,880 the Fiat perspective of and yeah, I don't know, it's just, 848 00:53:16,880 --> 00:53:18,760 it's, it's not my way of thinking about it. 849 00:53:19,520 --> 00:53:22,520 No, I, I love that. I mean, I, I, I didn't know what 850 00:53:22,520 --> 00:53:25,240 you were going to answer. I look at it in the same way as 851 00:53:25,320 --> 00:53:28,320 as you look at it, because I never understood stocks. 852 00:53:28,360 --> 00:53:31,520 I've never been into stocks and all all this other stuff like it 853 00:53:32,040 --> 00:53:33,720 in some way didn't make sense to me. 854 00:53:33,720 --> 00:53:37,440 Now I, I have the same as you. You know, my hurdle rate is, is 855 00:53:37,800 --> 00:53:41,560 pretty high, you know, to, to, to move to something else. 856 00:53:41,560 --> 00:53:43,800 I'm not, I'm not even doing that because. 857 00:53:43,800 --> 00:53:45,400 Yeah, exactly as you said. Like what? 858 00:53:46,160 --> 00:53:51,760 What's, what is the point in it helping me to get more, more 859 00:53:51,760 --> 00:53:54,400 sets, you know? Like, no, yeah, what I will say 860 00:53:54,400 --> 00:53:56,040 is like, I mean, typically, what are they really saying? 861 00:53:56,040 --> 00:53:58,880 They're saying that, you know, the, the the price of Bitcoin 862 00:53:58,880 --> 00:54:01,680 could fall precipitously. And so then, you know, you lost 863 00:54:01,680 --> 00:54:05,880 everything. And that's the sort of thing 864 00:54:05,880 --> 00:54:08,400 that it's like, it's, yeah, it's. 865 00:54:08,480 --> 00:54:11,760 So I think this is where one like an understanding of 866 00:54:11,760 --> 00:54:13,280 uncertainty can help us think about. 867 00:54:13,280 --> 00:54:15,800 It's like, what does it actually mean for something to be 868 00:54:15,800 --> 00:54:18,280 speculative? And it's like, well, literally 869 00:54:18,280 --> 00:54:21,920 every asset you own is is speculative because we don't 870 00:54:21,920 --> 00:54:23,720 know the future. That's by definition. 871 00:54:23,720 --> 00:54:25,800 Speculative and you want to know my reply? 872 00:54:25,800 --> 00:54:27,880 I always say life is speculative. 873 00:54:27,880 --> 00:54:31,240 Like it's not an argument. You know it's right, right? 874 00:54:31,240 --> 00:54:34,520 As you said, doing nothing is a choice, which is a speculation 875 00:54:34,520 --> 00:54:36,760 on whatever. You know, if, if, if you own a 876 00:54:36,760 --> 00:54:39,680 house, you know, what if the property value like, plummets 877 00:54:39,680 --> 00:54:41,280 tomorrow? It could happen, you know? 878 00:54:41,680 --> 00:54:43,400 Yeah. What if you know? 879 00:54:44,080 --> 00:54:46,720 Something. Yeah, I mean, that's, and we, we 880 00:54:46,720 --> 00:54:49,960 see that going on in the United States right now and it's like 881 00:54:50,680 --> 00:54:55,040 it's, it's extremely tragic. It's it's very painful to watch 882 00:54:58,640 --> 00:55:00,840 when people say that. When I, when I think about, oh, 883 00:55:00,840 --> 00:55:05,320 it's, it's speculative. What I think is not, oh, oh, 884 00:55:05,320 --> 00:55:07,320 this asset is more speculative than this. 885 00:55:07,320 --> 00:55:08,840 It's like, well, they're all speculative. 886 00:55:08,840 --> 00:55:11,440 The question is the, the question is like, which one 887 00:55:11,440 --> 00:55:13,880 should we speculate on? So it's like you're asking, 888 00:55:13,880 --> 00:55:16,240 you're in some way, you're asking the wrong question. 889 00:55:16,640 --> 00:55:21,080 It's like by what basis do we determine how to speculate on 890 00:55:21,080 --> 00:55:23,560 something? And for me, when I'm thinking 891 00:55:23,560 --> 00:55:27,840 about the nature of money, I, you know, I, I go about these, 892 00:55:27,880 --> 00:55:30,920 these things from a very qualitative kind of fundamentals 893 00:55:30,920 --> 00:55:33,280 point of view. You know, others are going to 894 00:55:33,280 --> 00:55:36,280 have different ways of looking at that, but like I, I come in 895 00:55:36,280 --> 00:55:39,960 at it from that and when I look at Bitcoin, it's able to solve 896 00:55:39,960 --> 00:55:42,840 the problems of money better than anything else. 897 00:55:43,480 --> 00:55:45,920 We look empirically in the, the market. 898 00:55:46,200 --> 00:55:51,800 It follows a sort of kind of clear, broadly exponential trend 899 00:55:51,800 --> 00:55:55,480 in the market, which I think makes sense based on the nature 900 00:55:55,480 --> 00:56:00,800 of a network good like money and it's, it's scarcity and all of 901 00:56:00,800 --> 00:56:03,840 that. And you know, when I, when I 902 00:56:03,840 --> 00:56:07,320 look at those, those trends, I, I asked the question not of 903 00:56:07,320 --> 00:56:09,400 like, oh, when is it going to fall? 904 00:56:09,640 --> 00:56:14,160 But you know, just simply can't we expect it to continue as it, 905 00:56:14,320 --> 00:56:16,800 as it would like? I, I think they're so used to, 906 00:56:16,800 --> 00:56:20,280 you know, what, what goes up must come down that they forget 907 00:56:20,280 --> 00:56:23,240 that, you know, money is kind of the thing that just doesn't come 908 00:56:23,240 --> 00:56:27,920 down because everyone wants it. It's the one most liquid good. 909 00:56:28,360 --> 00:56:35,360 And so those, those people, once again, it's like they what, what 910 00:56:35,360 --> 00:56:37,840 I would encourage them to do is instead think about is like, 911 00:56:37,840 --> 00:56:39,880 what are the fundamental problems that Bitcoin are 912 00:56:39,880 --> 00:56:41,640 solving? Is the people that say that are 913 00:56:41,640 --> 00:56:44,720 often the ones who also, you know, are the ones saying it's 914 00:56:44,720 --> 00:56:47,640 like, oh, it's a Ponzi scheme. It's, you know, tulips, it's, 915 00:56:47,800 --> 00:56:52,720 you know, whatever. So I, I, I would encourage those 916 00:56:52,720 --> 00:56:59,640 people to think about, you know, why is it that people speculate 917 00:56:59,760 --> 00:57:07,920 on Bitcoin and why is it that despite these, what you think of 918 00:57:07,920 --> 00:57:11,440 as speculative bubbles around Bitcoin, certainly hype cycles, 919 00:57:12,360 --> 00:57:14,360 why does it still continue to grow? 920 00:57:14,880 --> 00:57:19,760 And I would, I would say that like, as you explore those 921 00:57:19,760 --> 00:57:23,120 questions, you are likely to find similar answers to me, in 922 00:57:23,120 --> 00:57:25,120 which case it's just when you look at the market, it's like, 923 00:57:25,120 --> 00:57:28,480 well, why would I, why would I buy anything else? 924 00:57:28,480 --> 00:57:31,720 In fact, once you start to look at it that way, everything else 925 00:57:31,720 --> 00:57:35,840 does seem like a risk on assets in the sense that if I go buy a 926 00:57:35,840 --> 00:57:38,040 chair, I'm going to be losing sets. 927 00:57:39,000 --> 00:57:43,280 It's and if I go buy stocks or bonds or whatever, I'm also 928 00:57:43,280 --> 00:57:49,320 going to be losing sats relative to what I would have had if I 929 00:57:49,320 --> 00:57:56,080 just held sats and continued to sort of save in sats. 930 00:57:57,200 --> 00:58:01,400 Yeah, yeah, I I agree with this. I think so. 931 00:58:01,400 --> 00:58:03,840 So I say like life is speculative, but also, well, you 932 00:58:03,840 --> 00:58:07,120 speculate on Tim Cook waking up in the morning or Elon waking up 933 00:58:07,120 --> 00:58:09,480 in the morning. You know, like it's, yeah, it's, 934 00:58:09,480 --> 00:58:13,240 it's, it's, it is from this old paradigm asking these questions 935 00:58:13,240 --> 00:58:17,000 because they are actually valid in the Fiat money 0 sum game 936 00:58:17,560 --> 00:58:20,080 paradigm. Yeah, like I said, it's like 937 00:58:20,320 --> 00:58:23,760 when you're trying to weigh in at the Fiat scoreboard, you're 938 00:58:23,760 --> 00:58:30,080 going to play a different game, you know, So you don't, you 939 00:58:30,080 --> 00:58:31,800 don't bring a dollar to a sat fight. 940 00:58:31,800 --> 00:58:33,600 I guess I don't know, like we can come up with. 941 00:58:33,600 --> 00:58:35,920 Some creative good one. Creative flying around that I 942 00:58:35,920 --> 00:58:36,920 don't know what it would be, but. 943 00:58:37,800 --> 00:58:39,360 I think, I think that you should tweet that. 944 00:58:39,360 --> 00:58:40,720 That's a that's that's a good one. 945 00:58:41,000 --> 00:58:43,400 Well, yeah. Well, talking about, you know, 946 00:58:43,400 --> 00:58:45,040 memes, I think. I think, yeah. 947 00:58:45,040 --> 00:58:46,480 I think you're somewhat of a meme Lord. 948 00:58:46,600 --> 00:58:50,040 You helped popularize the meme. Bitcoin fixes this. 949 00:58:51,000 --> 00:58:52,200 What? What does that mean? 950 00:58:52,280 --> 00:58:55,000 Why is it so important to understand that Bitcoin fixes 951 00:58:55,040 --> 00:58:56,640 this? Bitcoin fixes this. 952 00:58:56,640 --> 00:58:59,640 So, you know, I'm trying to remember if I can, if I can 953 00:58:59,640 --> 00:59:02,560 think of what the initial thing is. 954 00:59:02,760 --> 00:59:10,080 Because I actually, it's so hard to trace memes And I, I try not 955 00:59:10,080 --> 00:59:13,440 to take too much credit for any memes because I see them as sort 956 00:59:13,440 --> 00:59:16,480 of a, it's a, a sort of collective good. 957 00:59:16,480 --> 00:59:19,640 It's a, it's a, you know, it's just, it's out there. 958 00:59:20,720 --> 00:59:23,320 It's, it's not meant to be sort of owned by anyone. 959 00:59:23,760 --> 00:59:28,280 And but I, I, I think that I think Stefan Lafaire may have 960 00:59:28,280 --> 00:59:32,160 been the first one that I saw using that in a sort of direct 961 00:59:32,320 --> 00:59:38,640 kind of Mimi way. But basically the way that I 962 00:59:38,640 --> 00:59:43,560 think about Bitcoin fixes this is that, you know, money. 963 00:59:43,720 --> 00:59:49,640 Money is basically half of every economic transaction in a large 964 00:59:49,640 --> 00:59:51,880 economy. If you're not in a a little 965 00:59:51,880 --> 00:59:56,400 barter economy, money is going to be half of every transaction. 966 00:59:57,200 --> 01:00:00,920 It is. It is what guides our economic 967 01:00:00,920 --> 01:00:04,680 thinking because all of us are typically thinking about our 968 01:00:05,320 --> 01:00:07,720 profits and losses in terms of money. 969 01:00:07,920 --> 01:00:10,440 You know, do we want to, do we want to go get a new job? 970 01:00:10,480 --> 01:00:12,240 Why? Because it's going to earn us 971 01:00:12,240 --> 01:00:15,160 more money. You know, do we want to buy this 972 01:00:15,160 --> 01:00:18,080 thing or not? Well, how much how much money is 973 01:00:18,080 --> 01:00:19,960 it going to cost? You know, we're typically 974 01:00:19,960 --> 01:00:22,520 thinking in terms of money whenever we're making all these 975 01:00:22,520 --> 01:00:25,240 choices because of the fact that it's that most liquid good. 976 01:00:25,920 --> 01:00:30,400 And so when money is so foundational to so many 977 01:00:30,400 --> 01:00:36,400 different economic decisions, you can start to imagine how 978 01:00:37,080 --> 01:00:42,320 when you start messing with the money, it's going to shape 979 01:00:42,560 --> 01:00:45,360 people's decision making in a different way. 980 01:00:45,920 --> 01:00:49,240 And I think for a lot of Bitcoiners, and not just 981 01:00:49,240 --> 01:00:51,720 Bitcoiners, but a lot of people who have, who have studied sort 982 01:00:51,720 --> 01:00:56,000 of, you know, Austrian economics or other other paradigms around 983 01:00:56,000 --> 01:01:01,600 sound money, look at how money has been debased over, 984 01:01:01,600 --> 01:01:05,640 especially over the past, you know, century and a decade or 985 01:01:05,640 --> 01:01:10,960 so. And they can start to see how 986 01:01:11,600 --> 01:01:16,080 monetary debasement may have changed the ways that people 987 01:01:16,080 --> 01:01:21,240 interact with all sorts of industries, ideas, concepts, you 988 01:01:21,240 --> 01:01:24,080 know, and so on. So it's like, you know, like you 989 01:01:24,080 --> 01:01:29,040 were saying, it's like how much time you can spend in leisure is 990 01:01:29,040 --> 01:01:31,440 going to change. You know, what kind of what kind 991 01:01:31,440 --> 01:01:33,400 of art are you going to be thinking about? 992 01:01:33,720 --> 01:01:35,360 It's like if you're working all the time, you don't even have 993 01:01:35,360 --> 01:01:37,680 time to think about, you know, what is, what is the art that 994 01:01:37,680 --> 01:01:40,640 pleases you? Whereas if you can have time to 995 01:01:40,640 --> 01:01:45,280 rest, you can really think about It's like what, what art truly 996 01:01:45,280 --> 01:01:49,600 embodies, what I believe about the world and what I want to, to 997 01:01:49,600 --> 01:01:53,520 see in the world. And you, you have things like 998 01:01:53,880 --> 01:01:58,240 food where when you're debasing the money, food is one of the 999 01:01:58,240 --> 01:02:03,680 things that is going to increase very fast in price and people 1000 01:02:03,680 --> 01:02:08,640 start changing the way they eat to deal with the changes in food 1001 01:02:08,640 --> 01:02:12,080 costs. And so especially in the United 1002 01:02:12,080 --> 01:02:14,760 States, but it's basically it's, it's a global issue at this 1003 01:02:14,760 --> 01:02:17,920 point. We have the rise of things like, 1004 01:02:18,440 --> 01:02:23,120 you know, seed oils and, you know, all kinds of other junk 1005 01:02:23,120 --> 01:02:26,000 food, which I, which I'd coined like, you know, Fiat food 1006 01:02:26,360 --> 01:02:29,280 because it's like stuff that, that we're eating because it's 1007 01:02:29,280 --> 01:02:34,800 been kind of pushed by, by Fiat economics and also just, you 1008 01:02:34,800 --> 01:02:41,920 know, Fiat government science, which is funded by Fiat money 1009 01:02:42,200 --> 01:02:45,400 and so on and so forth. So a lot of the, the, the food 1010 01:02:45,400 --> 01:02:49,200 itself is sort of getting debased and so on and so forth. 1011 01:02:49,200 --> 01:02:51,200 We can, we can just go industry by industry. 1012 01:02:51,200 --> 01:02:53,680 It's the thing that, you know, people get annoyed by Bitcoiners 1013 01:02:53,680 --> 01:02:57,320 because we just everything we're looking at this and what annoys 1014 01:02:57,320 --> 01:03:00,440 them the most is that then we come in and we say Bitcoin fixes 1015 01:03:00,440 --> 01:03:03,360 this. But what we mean by that is that 1016 01:03:04,720 --> 01:03:09,520 because, because so many of these things, such a, such a 1017 01:03:09,560 --> 01:03:14,600 strong factor, such a major factor in what led to a 1018 01:03:14,600 --> 01:03:18,480 degradation of, of the production of some kind of 1019 01:03:18,480 --> 01:03:24,440 particular good or service. Because we can tie that, we 1020 01:03:24,440 --> 01:03:27,360 believe that we can tie that to the debasement of money. 1021 01:03:28,240 --> 01:03:34,480 The fixing of the money is also going to allow conditions that 1022 01:03:34,480 --> 01:03:40,600 will realign the production of those goods and services with 1023 01:03:41,000 --> 01:03:44,640 what people actually need and want, which is, you know, going 1024 01:03:44,640 --> 01:03:47,400 to be health and wealth and all that good stuff. 1025 01:03:47,400 --> 01:03:50,800 So you know, there's the line. Fix the money, fix the world. 1026 01:03:51,040 --> 01:03:52,560 That's what Bitcoin fixes this means. 1027 01:03:52,560 --> 01:03:57,120 But it's much easier to just say 3 words than go on that long 1028 01:03:57,120 --> 01:04:00,560 rant rant. Yeah, I love that. 1029 01:04:00,640 --> 01:04:03,560 I Yeah. Oh, something else I was just 1030 01:04:03,560 --> 01:04:06,200 going to tack on to that is, you know why? 1031 01:04:06,200 --> 01:04:10,080 Why deploy the meme? And one of the cool things is 1032 01:04:10,080 --> 01:04:13,120 because Bitcoin is so ubiquitous. 1033 01:04:13,200 --> 01:04:15,400 Or, sorry, money is so ubiquitous and it's going to 1034 01:04:15,440 --> 01:04:19,520 affect everyone. It's also a good jumping off 1035 01:04:19,520 --> 01:04:22,720 point for anyone who senses any economic trouble in the world 1036 01:04:22,720 --> 01:04:24,840 around them, whatever industry it might be in. 1037 01:04:24,840 --> 01:04:28,440 It might be an architect who's sick of producing buildings in a 1038 01:04:28,440 --> 01:04:32,320 certain way, or it's it's a farmer who is sick of having to 1039 01:04:32,920 --> 01:04:36,640 grow crops in particular way because he can't even afford to 1040 01:04:36,640 --> 01:04:39,400 actually own his land. So he's at the whim of some 1041 01:04:39,920 --> 01:04:43,440 large Agri business and so on and so forth. 1042 01:04:45,520 --> 01:04:48,280 Each of these people, they are dealing with something that's 1043 01:04:48,280 --> 01:04:53,520 been debased by money. And so it also becomes a foot in 1044 01:04:53,520 --> 01:04:57,240 the door with those people to start to like, you have specific 1045 01:04:57,240 --> 01:05:01,240 knowledge around this thing. Let's take a look at how your 1046 01:05:01,240 --> 01:05:04,560 decisions can get realigned with what you actually want. 1047 01:05:04,800 --> 01:05:07,640 If you start adopting Bitcoin and you start using Bitcoin as 1048 01:05:07,640 --> 01:05:11,000 money and so you can Bitcoin fixes. 1049 01:05:11,000 --> 01:05:14,320 This also helps like show you know, Bitcoin is this global 1050 01:05:14,320 --> 01:05:19,200 universal thing. And so you know, whatever 1051 01:05:19,200 --> 01:05:22,480 problem you have, we can start to think, OK, in what ways can 1052 01:05:22,480 --> 01:05:26,240 we fix it by introducing just simply a better money, a better, 1053 01:05:26,240 --> 01:05:29,480 better savings vehicle. And so I think it allows for a 1054 01:05:29,480 --> 01:05:36,880 great, you know, you know, for for evangelizing Bitcoin, that 1055 01:05:36,880 --> 01:05:39,440 doesn't mean necessarily just going up to someone and saying 1056 01:05:39,440 --> 01:05:42,360 Bitcoin fixes this is going to win them over, but rather the 1057 01:05:42,360 --> 01:05:48,080 mindset of Bitcoin fixes this can help inspire how to 1058 01:05:48,080 --> 01:05:51,560 encourage people to better think about money and how it affects 1059 01:05:51,560 --> 01:05:56,520 them and how something like Bitcoin can improve their 1060 01:05:56,520 --> 01:05:58,840 ability to go express those values in the world. 1061 01:06:01,640 --> 01:06:05,280 Yeah, yeah, I agree. I again with with Seb Bunny, we 1062 01:06:05,280 --> 01:06:08,720 had AI just had a really great conversation with him. 1063 01:06:08,720 --> 01:06:10,400 I'll I'll link to it. I feel like any people 1064 01:06:10,400 --> 01:06:12,440 listening. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'll 1065 01:06:12,440 --> 01:06:14,800 link to it in the description and and at the end, but yeah, 1066 01:06:14,800 --> 01:06:18,320 you should listen to that because Bitcoin fixes this is 1067 01:06:18,320 --> 01:06:23,520 the answer to or like kind of the conclusion of everything is 1068 01:06:23,520 --> 01:06:26,280 downstream from the money. That's what I talked about with 1069 01:06:26,400 --> 01:06:29,480 with a lot, right. And I think we touched upon that 1070 01:06:29,480 --> 01:06:30,800 in the beginning. Why is that? 1071 01:06:30,800 --> 01:06:33,200 Because, you know, the quality of the money creates the 1072 01:06:33,200 --> 01:06:36,400 incentives for you to act in this economic marketplace and 1073 01:06:36,400 --> 01:06:39,480 transfer value with with other people. 1074 01:06:39,720 --> 01:06:42,920 And I, I also always say to other people like, you know, if 1075 01:06:42,920 --> 01:06:45,520 they're activists or, or complaining about stuff, like 1076 01:06:46,080 --> 01:06:49,160 think about anything that you would want to fix in the world. 1077 01:06:49,160 --> 01:06:52,440 And if you go deep enough, you realize that it is because the 1078 01:06:52,440 --> 01:06:55,480 money is broken and incentives are broken and that people are 1079 01:06:55,480 --> 01:06:57,360 acting in a, in a, in a certain way. 1080 01:06:57,360 --> 01:06:59,160 Like last week I had a discussion about there's, 1081 01:06:59,240 --> 01:07:01,760 there's like a steel factory in my country that's like on the, 1082 01:07:02,240 --> 01:07:07,200 on the water and they got caught like dumping, you know, like 1083 01:07:07,200 --> 01:07:09,680 steel garbage or whatever that, you know, comes from the 1084 01:07:09,680 --> 01:07:12,880 factory, like in, in the ocean, right? 1085 01:07:13,480 --> 01:07:15,800 But think about that. Like there's a there's this boat 1086 01:07:16,000 --> 01:07:18,360 with this waste on there, there's a crew on there, there's 1087 01:07:18,360 --> 01:07:20,600 a captain on there, right? And they get this, you know, 1088 01:07:20,640 --> 01:07:23,160 it's their day job and they have a family and all these things. 1089 01:07:23,160 --> 01:07:27,240 And you know, they are, they get the assignment like, OK, you go 1090 01:07:27,240 --> 01:07:29,800 to these coordinates in the ocean, then you dump whatever 1091 01:07:29,800 --> 01:07:31,560 your load is, right? Maybe they don't even know about 1092 01:07:31,560 --> 01:07:33,680 the load or whatever, you know, so, so the captain just chugs 1093 01:07:33,680 --> 01:07:36,880 along that he gets to the GPS point, he just presses a button, 1094 01:07:36,880 --> 01:07:38,640 the thing opens, dumps in the ocean, etcetera. 1095 01:07:38,640 --> 01:07:44,160 Like people are not consciously doing this, but in the in the 1096 01:07:44,160 --> 01:07:47,600 line of incentives slash instructions that are eventually 1097 01:07:47,600 --> 01:07:49,520 created for them to do their job. 1098 01:07:50,320 --> 01:07:53,720 It is eventually the money, the quality of the money that makes 1099 01:07:53,720 --> 01:07:55,640 them do that. And it's not that the guy who, 1100 01:07:55,640 --> 01:07:59,480 you know, pushes the button of and and and ways out of the boat 1101 01:07:59,480 --> 01:08:01,560 that he thinks that he thinks about this, right? 1102 01:08:01,920 --> 01:08:05,840 But the people that are activate active, I would say like 1103 01:08:05,840 --> 01:08:09,560 activists around a topic like this, they focus on those people 1104 01:08:09,560 --> 01:08:13,200 that are that are doing it. But it's the they have to zoom 1105 01:08:13,280 --> 01:08:15,880 out like 2-3 layers. Why? 1106 01:08:16,160 --> 01:08:18,439 Why was it that that was the right choice? 1107 01:08:20,479 --> 01:08:22,200 Or. Seemingly the right choice from 1108 01:08:22,200 --> 01:08:25,200 their perspective. I mean, yeah, And you know, a 1109 01:08:25,200 --> 01:08:27,920 lot of people who get annoyed by Bitcoin fixes this, they sort of 1110 01:08:27,920 --> 01:08:32,640 mistake it for meaning that on the very first order, just 1111 01:08:32,640 --> 01:08:36,359 fixing Bitcoin just magically fixes something in the. 1112 01:08:36,359 --> 01:08:37,760 World, Yeah. Yeah. 1113 01:08:37,800 --> 01:08:43,080 Whereas what we're really typically saying is that Bitcoin 1114 01:08:43,720 --> 01:08:50,439 like fixing the money has an NTH order effect of fixing all of 1115 01:08:50,439 --> 01:08:55,840 the incentives from the source of economic decision making all 1116 01:08:55,840 --> 01:08:58,160 the way down the structures of production. 1117 01:08:58,880 --> 01:09:02,080 Finally, to, you know, this guy who's who's stuck with steel 1118 01:09:02,080 --> 01:09:06,640 waste deciding, you know, what to do, you know, maybe steel 1119 01:09:06,640 --> 01:09:10,479 would be produced in a completely different way if up 1120 01:09:10,479 --> 01:09:12,439 the chain money was a different way. 1121 01:09:12,479 --> 01:09:15,279 I don't know. It's it's I'm not trying to like 1122 01:09:15,279 --> 01:09:18,160 plan ahead what these these worlds are supposed to look 1123 01:09:18,160 --> 01:09:21,279 like. I'm simply saying that somewhere 1124 01:09:21,279 --> 01:09:25,319 down the line, the quality of the money is having a 1125 01:09:25,560 --> 01:09:29,240 disproportionate effect on why people make the choices that 1126 01:09:29,240 --> 01:09:31,840 they make. And yeah. 1127 01:09:33,240 --> 01:09:34,800 Yeah. Well, we, we, we came across 1128 01:09:34,800 --> 01:09:37,600 that, right. Like if you are incentivized to 1129 01:09:37,600 --> 01:09:40,600 spend it as quickly as possible and other people are 1130 01:09:40,600 --> 01:09:43,000 incentivized to earn it as quickly as possible, the 1131 01:09:43,000 --> 01:09:46,439 decisions that are made are of, you know, low, low quality. 1132 01:09:46,680 --> 01:09:50,240 But if you are incentivized to really consider if you should 1133 01:09:50,240 --> 01:09:53,000 spend, you know, the hardest money ever to exist in the 1134 01:09:53,000 --> 01:09:56,240 existence of, of people, then you will, you know, if you have 1135 01:09:56,240 --> 01:09:58,880 five options in front of you, you will be, you know, 1136 01:09:58,880 --> 01:10:01,960 scrutinizing the option. Yeah, Right. 1137 01:10:02,080 --> 01:10:03,760 Yeah, yes. That's, that's kind of what I 1138 01:10:03,760 --> 01:10:04,360 think. Yeah. 1139 01:10:05,000 --> 01:10:09,040 So how, you know, we, we, we use these memes. 1140 01:10:09,040 --> 01:10:13,760 The memes are kind of of of, of a, of a tool, I would say, you 1141 01:10:13,760 --> 01:10:15,920 know, I think everyone listening should follow you. 1142 01:10:15,920 --> 01:10:17,960 Then they will figure out, you know, then they will know what 1143 01:10:17,960 --> 01:10:21,720 I'm what I'm talking about. How, how does like this, this 1144 01:10:21,720 --> 01:10:25,560 narrative of Bitcoin fit into or challenge kind of like the 1145 01:10:25,560 --> 01:10:28,400 current narratives, You know, that that we kind of mentioned 1146 01:10:28,400 --> 01:10:30,600 before around money, wealth, technology. 1147 01:10:30,600 --> 01:10:33,200 I think we touched upon it a little bit, but this is kind of 1148 01:10:33,200 --> 01:10:39,040 the battle that we're in, right? We are trying to dismantle a 1149 01:10:39,040 --> 01:10:42,320 narrative that people have been told, whether it's about gold, 1150 01:10:42,320 --> 01:10:44,920 whether it's about money, you know, whether it's about wealth, 1151 01:10:44,920 --> 01:10:47,120 you know, all the, all these things that we kind of touched 1152 01:10:47,120 --> 01:10:51,840 upon, like how, how do we fit Bitcoin's narrative into that? 1153 01:10:53,960 --> 01:10:56,720 Well, I, I think you're right that there is basically a, a 1154 01:10:56,720 --> 01:10:59,840 battle of narratives. This is something I, I think 1155 01:10:59,840 --> 01:11:04,080 it's a biology who, who kind of, you know, defined, you know, the 1156 01:11:04,080 --> 01:11:07,240 great debate of the 21st century, sort of Bitcoin versus 1157 01:11:07,240 --> 01:11:09,840 MMT, you know, modern monetary theory. 1158 01:11:09,840 --> 01:11:12,560 So, you know, just think of that as just like hyper Fiat. 1159 01:11:13,560 --> 01:11:16,400 Orange versus green, right? Yeah, exactly. 1160 01:11:16,880 --> 01:11:19,200 So it really is sort of this, this narrative battle. 1161 01:11:19,200 --> 01:11:25,720 And yeah, I mean, when I, when I speak of memes, you know, I, I 1162 01:11:25,720 --> 01:11:30,120 don't, I don't simply mean, you know, just, you know, funny 1163 01:11:30,120 --> 01:11:32,480 tweets or something, you know, little sayings. 1164 01:11:32,680 --> 01:11:35,840 Those are examples of memes. But they're, they're not, 1165 01:11:35,920 --> 01:11:38,520 they're, they're not the concept of memes themselves. 1166 01:11:38,520 --> 01:11:42,120 Like memes as a whole, I think of it as as really just a, a, a 1167 01:11:42,120 --> 01:11:44,480 cheeky way of, of saying rhetoric. 1168 01:11:44,880 --> 01:11:49,280 You know, it's, it's, you know, the, the art of, you know, 1169 01:11:49,280 --> 01:11:54,720 persuasion and rhetoric of trying to communicate to others 1170 01:11:54,960 --> 01:12:01,280 in a way that they will, you know, come, come to see things 1171 01:12:01,280 --> 01:12:07,640 as you see them. And, and you know that, that 1172 01:12:07,640 --> 01:12:10,600 that kind of battle is going to have many fronts. 1173 01:12:10,600 --> 01:12:13,560 You're going to have people who, you know, are kind of shock 1174 01:12:13,560 --> 01:12:16,760 troops, you know, going in and just saying crazy things. 1175 01:12:17,520 --> 01:12:21,880 You have other people who are going to be, you know, you know, 1176 01:12:21,960 --> 01:12:24,480 educators and, and so on and so forth. 1177 01:12:24,480 --> 01:12:27,560 And so there's, there's not like, you know, 11 sort of 1178 01:12:27,560 --> 01:12:29,600 mimetic strategy. It's, it's a, it's a big 1179 01:12:29,600 --> 01:12:36,000 division of Labor to deal with different, different aspects of, 1180 01:12:37,160 --> 01:12:41,320 you know, helping people see money in a different way. 1181 01:12:41,920 --> 01:12:46,560 But I do think it's important to, you know, understand, you 1182 01:12:46,560 --> 01:12:50,000 know, what it is people are arguing and like, try to 1183 01:12:50,040 --> 01:12:53,800 identify, you know, where the errors are and that can kind of 1184 01:12:53,800 --> 01:12:57,640 help you inform, it can help inform you, you know what, what 1185 01:12:57,640 --> 01:13:02,840 kind of like rhetoric and dialectic of, you know, actual 1186 01:13:02,840 --> 01:13:05,360 like arguments. We shouldn't just, we shouldn't 1187 01:13:05,360 --> 01:13:07,280 only exist in a, in a world of rhetoric. 1188 01:13:07,960 --> 01:13:12,760 People should go check out my, my meme talk from 2019 if they 1189 01:13:12,760 --> 01:13:17,520 want to know kind of my views on, on rhetoric and dialectic 1190 01:13:17,520 --> 01:13:19,800 and, and stuff like that. But, you know, I basically say 1191 01:13:19,800 --> 01:13:23,800 that, you know, people who are showing good faith, you should 1192 01:13:23,800 --> 01:13:27,080 be engaged more in something like dialectic, which is just, 1193 01:13:27,320 --> 01:13:31,160 you know, proper argumentation and, and sharing of ideas and 1194 01:13:31,160 --> 01:13:33,960 stuff like that. But people who are acting in bad 1195 01:13:33,960 --> 01:13:39,560 faith are, are typically going to be on the receiving end of 1196 01:13:40,280 --> 01:13:46,760 more mocking rhetoric, more sort of trollish rhetoric and and so 1197 01:13:46,760 --> 01:13:50,400 on and so forth. But I also did argue that all of 1198 01:13:50,400 --> 01:13:54,120 these should always as as best to our ability, be grounded in 1199 01:13:54,120 --> 01:13:57,040 truth. You know, we, we don't want to 1200 01:13:57,040 --> 01:14:00,960 be going out into the world and, and lying about things, not we 1201 01:14:00,960 --> 01:14:04,880 could be wrong about things, but we shouldn't be lying about 1202 01:14:04,880 --> 01:14:10,840 them. And yeah, so, you know, some 1203 01:14:10,840 --> 01:14:13,320 people, you know, they just have good faith questions about 1204 01:14:13,320 --> 01:14:14,800 Bitcoin. It's because they have, you 1205 01:14:14,800 --> 01:14:17,520 know, certain errors. And for those people is you just 1206 01:14:17,520 --> 01:14:19,760 have to sit down and and kind of work through it. 1207 01:14:20,560 --> 01:14:26,760 Then when you have journalists who are mouthpieces for the Fiat 1208 01:14:26,760 --> 01:14:32,840 regime writing articles that say that actually the reason prices 1209 01:14:32,840 --> 01:14:36,320 are higher or because of like Beyoncé concert tickets or 1210 01:14:36,320 --> 01:14:38,280 something like that. I forget what they were. 1211 01:14:39,000 --> 01:14:42,000 At one point it was Beyoncé and another point it was Taylor 1212 01:14:42,000 --> 01:14:43,640 Swift. You know, it's always, you know, 1213 01:14:43,640 --> 01:14:47,000 it's something like that causing like changes in, you know, 1214 01:14:47,000 --> 01:14:50,600 global economic factors. You see, when those people are 1215 01:14:50,600 --> 01:14:54,120 writing things like that, you know, they, they should be 1216 01:14:54,240 --> 01:14:56,080 probably just pointed out and laughed at. 1217 01:14:56,800 --> 01:14:59,360 And it's a good time to just kind of point out the, the 1218 01:14:59,360 --> 01:15:03,360 obvious facts of like, well, what, what are the actual 1219 01:15:03,360 --> 01:15:07,200 things, you know, going on when you have politicians saying that 1220 01:15:07,560 --> 01:15:14,640 it's the greedy corporations that magically made, you know, 1221 01:15:14,680 --> 01:15:19,160 the, the, the prices go up. And those politicians are also 1222 01:15:19,160 --> 01:15:24,600 basically, you know, threatening to, you know, you know, increase 1223 01:15:24,600 --> 01:15:28,640 taxes that are only going to put a bigger burden on both the 1224 01:15:28,680 --> 01:15:31,600 consumers trying to buy things and the entrepreneurs who are 1225 01:15:31,600 --> 01:15:37,960 trying to get goods to people. Somehow everyone magically 1226 01:15:37,960 --> 01:15:41,320 became greedy now as opposed to before. 1227 01:15:41,880 --> 01:15:46,480 But in any case, like those people also, you know, deserve a 1228 01:15:46,480 --> 01:15:52,360 little bit more of a, probably a combative rhetoric because they, 1229 01:15:52,360 --> 01:15:55,800 they are typically not acting in good faith. 1230 01:15:56,920 --> 01:15:59,080 Yeah, I, I see it. It's just like a big division of 1231 01:15:59,080 --> 01:16:01,640 Labor of, of different, different things. 1232 01:16:01,640 --> 01:16:03,840 And, and, you know, there, there isn't 1 answer. 1233 01:16:03,840 --> 01:16:07,520 And it's, it's up to all of us to kind of know who are we 1234 01:16:07,520 --> 01:16:09,920 talking with? What are their hang ups? 1235 01:16:09,920 --> 01:16:11,800 What are their, you know, dispositions? 1236 01:16:11,800 --> 01:16:14,240 Are they, are they acting in good faith or bad faith? 1237 01:16:14,240 --> 01:16:18,400 And it's kind of up to each of us to, to kind of to, to be able 1238 01:16:18,400 --> 01:16:21,560 to make good judgment on that and try to do the best, best job 1239 01:16:21,560 --> 01:16:25,280 possible communicating for whatever situation that is. 1240 01:16:25,720 --> 01:16:28,800 Yeah. So what's a, what's a spiky 1241 01:16:28,800 --> 01:16:31,920 point of view on Bitcoin that that not many people share with 1242 01:16:31,920 --> 01:16:32,160 you? A. 1243 01:16:32,920 --> 01:16:37,200 Spiky point like a like a. Something like you really 1244 01:16:37,480 --> 01:16:39,920 really. Think like a contrarian sort of 1245 01:16:39,920 --> 01:16:45,040 take. Oh man, I, I mean, I'm sure I 1246 01:16:45,040 --> 01:16:52,520 could think of a lot as like I, there's a lot I don't, I, I 1247 01:16:52,520 --> 01:16:57,240 don't know if it's a lot I don't, it's hard for me to come 1248 01:16:57,240 --> 01:17:00,120 up with like a, a specific thing on the spot. 1249 01:17:00,360 --> 01:17:03,400 It's, it's something that probably, if you know, the topic 1250 01:17:03,400 --> 01:17:06,920 came up, I could probably point out, you know, some, some 1251 01:17:08,640 --> 01:17:12,440 differing point of view on something for, for a lot of my 1252 01:17:12,440 --> 01:17:14,400 work. So for people who are unaware, 1253 01:17:14,400 --> 01:17:21,320 I, I run the Satoshi Nakamoto Institute, which is is, you 1254 01:17:21,320 --> 01:17:25,520 know, advancing and preserving Bitcoin knowledge by having a 1255 01:17:25,520 --> 01:17:29,640 lot of, you know, archiving and sharing a lot of the sort of 1256 01:17:31,320 --> 01:17:37,640 historical ideas that that kind of forged the world that Bitcoin 1257 01:17:37,640 --> 01:17:42,360 came out of and as well as economic analysis of Bitcoin. 1258 01:17:42,440 --> 01:17:45,440 And because my focus has been much more on that, I haven't 1259 01:17:45,440 --> 01:17:50,640 been engaged with, you know, Twitter, Twitter memetics and 1260 01:17:50,640 --> 01:17:56,840 such as I once was. And so a lot of these debates 1261 01:17:56,840 --> 01:18:00,120 that that tends to be happening in the Bitcoin space these days, 1262 01:18:00,840 --> 01:18:05,120 I'm aware of them happening, but I have not been like as sort of 1263 01:18:05,120 --> 01:18:11,960 as engaged directly. And so I don't really have a 1264 01:18:12,000 --> 01:18:16,360 spicy takes, yeah, just just ready to shoot at the hips. 1265 01:18:16,360 --> 01:18:18,840 I've been, I've been kind of focused on, on my own work. 1266 01:18:19,760 --> 01:18:25,520 So unfortunately, I, I'm sure we could find something later, you 1267 01:18:25,520 --> 01:18:27,720 know, or if you just like listed stuff, we could probably find 1268 01:18:27,720 --> 01:18:30,840 something. But it's hard to just, yeah, pop 1269 01:18:30,840 --> 01:18:34,000 out with something. Well, well, maybe some there's 1270 01:18:34,000 --> 01:18:36,360 something in this answer. Yeah, as you said, so. 1271 01:18:36,440 --> 01:18:39,480 So you run the Satoshi Nakamoto Institute, you're preserving 1272 01:18:39,480 --> 01:18:42,040 this knowledge of between history, economics, the, the 1273 01:18:42,040 --> 01:18:46,520 tech, what is what, what do you think is like the biggest lesson 1274 01:18:46,520 --> 01:18:50,720 or maybe lessons from, from the history of Bitcoin that are, are 1275 01:18:50,720 --> 01:18:53,200 critical for newcomers to understand, right. 1276 01:18:53,200 --> 01:18:56,240 So my goal with the podcast is to hopefully, you know, with the 1277 01:18:56,240 --> 01:18:59,840 angle of millennials and my point of view and like reach 1278 01:18:59,880 --> 01:19:02,160 more new people and get them into Bitcoin. 1279 01:19:02,760 --> 01:19:05,400 But I also think, you know, we need to keep educating on 1280 01:19:05,400 --> 01:19:06,840 Bitcoin. It it's, I don't think it's 1281 01:19:06,840 --> 01:19:09,360 inevitable. We need to also teach our kids 1282 01:19:09,360 --> 01:19:11,560 why decentralization is important, etcetera. 1283 01:19:12,600 --> 01:19:14,440 Yeah. What are the biggest lessons 1284 01:19:14,520 --> 01:19:17,480 that that Yeah you would mention to to people coming in? 1285 01:19:18,120 --> 01:19:22,480 Would you? So it's, it's, it's hard to give 1286 01:19:22,480 --> 01:19:25,840 a blanket answer to that because of the fact that, like I said, 1287 01:19:25,920 --> 01:19:28,480 many people come into Bitcoin for many different reasons. 1288 01:19:30,160 --> 01:19:35,080 But just just to clarify, do you mean Bitcoin history as in since 1289 01:19:36,360 --> 01:19:39,360 the white papers dropped or you just mean kind of in the history 1290 01:19:39,360 --> 01:19:43,760 of ideas within that world? Oh, good one I would say. 1291 01:19:43,800 --> 01:19:46,080 Bitcoin history. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 1292 01:19:46,120 --> 01:19:50,040 I would say, you know, if you get into Bitcoin now and, and 1293 01:19:50,040 --> 01:19:53,560 let's take the the angle of, you know, most people come at it 1294 01:19:53,560 --> 01:19:54,960 from, you know, the number go up. 1295 01:19:54,960 --> 01:19:56,720 So the number goes up. Oh, interesting. 1296 01:19:56,720 --> 01:19:59,400 I'm going to buy some, you know. Oh, it goes up more. 1297 01:19:59,400 --> 01:20:01,760 What is this thing actually, you know, OK, I'm going to study. 1298 01:20:01,760 --> 01:20:04,080 Well, then, you know, there's, there's a, there's an immense 1299 01:20:04,080 --> 01:20:08,720 amount of volume of things that you could read, but I, I think 1300 01:20:08,720 --> 01:20:10,720 the base of my question comes from it. 1301 01:20:11,640 --> 01:20:16,640 You could miss historical lessons from, you know, this 1302 01:20:16,640 --> 01:20:20,320 first era, let's call it off Bitcoin, his 1st 15 years. 1303 01:20:20,320 --> 01:20:21,720 Of course. You know, I think we should 1304 01:20:21,720 --> 01:20:23,880 advise people, everyone, to read the white paper. 1305 01:20:23,880 --> 01:20:27,920 But like, yeah, stuff that came along the way, that's important 1306 01:20:27,920 --> 01:20:31,960 for the current course. I'm going to give 22 separate 1307 01:20:31,960 --> 01:20:34,880 things. The first one is just a general 1308 01:20:34,880 --> 01:20:40,360 lesson that I, I, I, I, I've, I've shared quite a few times 1309 01:20:40,360 --> 01:20:46,200 and I just think it's a, it's a good overall lesson, which is I, 1310 01:20:46,240 --> 01:20:48,960 I like to call it rule 34 of Bitcoin. 1311 01:20:49,680 --> 01:20:56,120 If you're familiar with rule 34 of the Internet, if you don't 1312 01:20:56,120 --> 01:20:57,480 know what that is, you can go look at that. 1313 01:20:57,480 --> 01:21:05,560 But rule 34 of Bitcoin being that if you have a a, an, an 1314 01:21:05,560 --> 01:21:09,520 argument against Bitcoin or something like that, you will be 1315 01:21:09,520 --> 01:21:13,360 able to find a Bitcoin talk thread about it from, you know, 1316 01:21:13,560 --> 01:21:18,920 2012 or 2013 or whatever. And the reason I think that's a, 1317 01:21:19,240 --> 01:21:26,080 an important lesson is because Bitcoin is it demands humility 1318 01:21:26,080 --> 01:21:30,560 out of us. So you know, you know the Odell 1319 01:21:30,560 --> 01:21:31,960 phrase. If you know, stay humble. 1320 01:21:31,960 --> 01:21:36,000 Stack SAT The reason you want to stay humble is because otherwise 1321 01:21:36,000 --> 01:21:37,920 Bitcoin is going to humble you for you. 1322 01:21:38,840 --> 01:21:40,760 So it's like you are going to be humbled. 1323 01:21:40,760 --> 01:21:43,600 It's just do you want to do it the easy way or the hard way? 1324 01:21:44,120 --> 01:21:49,120 And a lot of people come into Bitcoin both, you know, maybe 1325 01:21:49,160 --> 01:21:55,000 antagonistically or or not, and their, their lack of humility 1326 01:21:55,560 --> 01:22:01,840 often motivates them to misunderstand things in a 1327 01:22:01,840 --> 01:22:05,880 negative way. So a antagonistic way would be 1328 01:22:05,880 --> 01:22:09,320 coming into Bitcoin and saying, oh, here's why it's stupid. 1329 01:22:09,320 --> 01:22:11,920 And here's how, you know, it should have actually been 1330 01:22:11,920 --> 01:22:14,360 engineered. And exactly the, the classic 1331 01:22:14,360 --> 01:22:18,120 meme of I'm new to Bitcoin. I mean, I'm here to fix it. 1332 01:22:18,560 --> 01:22:21,280 And a lot of those people fight. Well, it's like, you know, 1333 01:22:21,480 --> 01:22:25,840 there's there's a reason, you know, Satoshi made Bitcoin as it 1334 01:22:25,840 --> 01:22:28,880 was. There's a reason why your little 1335 01:22:28,880 --> 01:22:32,480 thing hasn't hasn't been added and you're not the first person 1336 01:22:32,720 --> 01:22:36,360 to think like, oh, what if we made like faster block times? 1337 01:22:36,720 --> 01:22:38,760 It's like you're not the first person to think that. 1338 01:22:39,680 --> 01:22:43,000 And it it's there, there's there's a reason. 1339 01:22:43,000 --> 01:22:47,200 And instead of coming at it with I know best and I should go and 1340 01:22:47,240 --> 01:22:50,280 like, you should listen to me instead, you should ask the 1341 01:22:50,280 --> 01:22:52,480 question. It was like, why is this not the 1342 01:22:52,480 --> 01:22:54,120 case? And go try to answer that 1343 01:22:54,120 --> 01:22:56,920 question, almost like a Chesterton's fence kind of thing 1344 01:22:56,920 --> 01:23:00,840 of like, why is this fence here? Try to go ask that question and 1345 01:23:00,840 --> 01:23:06,240 go learn that before trying to do that from a positive angle, I 1346 01:23:06,240 --> 01:23:10,320 would look at, you know, different schemes of of things, 1347 01:23:10,840 --> 01:23:13,720 functionality that people want to add to Bitcoin because they 1348 01:23:13,720 --> 01:23:17,600 think it's cool. And there's some more obvious 1349 01:23:18,280 --> 01:23:21,800 things that we could go along these lines that have debates 1350 01:23:21,800 --> 01:23:27,160 going back to 2013 and before, But just for the sake of non 1351 01:23:27,160 --> 01:23:30,560 controversy, just to to annoy you because you wanted spicy 1352 01:23:30,560 --> 01:23:34,480 stuff. There is a, you know, someone 1353 01:23:34,480 --> 01:23:36,240 might come in. It's like, oh, Bitcoin is this 1354 01:23:36,240 --> 01:23:38,960 amazing thing. We could use it as a data store 1355 01:23:39,280 --> 01:23:43,240 and let's build like a social network on top of it because 1356 01:23:43,240 --> 01:23:45,960 then it will be like a decentralized social network or, 1357 01:23:46,040 --> 01:23:49,400 you know, whatever. And there's been, you know, many 1358 01:23:49,400 --> 01:23:53,560 attempts, you know, people, people have done this on other 1359 01:23:53,560 --> 01:23:59,160 chains and those have not ended well, but people come up with 1360 01:23:59,160 --> 01:24:00,880 that kind of thing and they bring it to Bitcoin and they 1361 01:24:00,880 --> 01:24:03,120 have such excitement. It's like, oh, we need to do 1362 01:24:03,120 --> 01:24:06,280 this and this is how good coins going to get to $100,000 or 1363 01:24:06,280 --> 01:24:09,320 higher because everyone's going to be wanting to use this like, 1364 01:24:09,560 --> 01:24:12,040 you know, Bitcoin based social network. 1365 01:24:12,120 --> 01:24:13,480 And I'm not meeting Noster there. 1366 01:24:13,480 --> 01:24:17,400 I'm meaning like using Bitcoin itself as the social network, 1367 01:24:17,640 --> 01:24:21,560 like data on it, which which Noster is sort of a separate 1368 01:24:21,560 --> 01:24:24,800 thing, just just to be clear. But like they come in just like, 1369 01:24:24,800 --> 01:24:27,040 oh, this is the way that Bitcoin's going to go to the 1370 01:24:27,040 --> 01:24:29,680 moon because everyone's going to want to do this and everyone's 1371 01:24:29,680 --> 01:24:32,720 going to be tipping all the creators on this thing and it's 1372 01:24:32,720 --> 01:24:34,520 going to be awesome. It's like, you need this thing. 1373 01:24:35,360 --> 01:24:38,920 Those people, what happens is they tend to put their vision of 1374 01:24:38,920 --> 01:24:43,880 an app ahead of Bitcoin itself, and they don't stop to ask one, 1375 01:24:44,240 --> 01:24:45,960 has anyone thought about this before? 1376 01:24:46,120 --> 01:24:49,400 And it turns out it's like, yeah, all the all the cool apps 1377 01:24:49,640 --> 01:24:54,280 that you think you have, we're likely already discarded by 1378 01:24:54,280 --> 01:24:59,280 people a decade ago, because I remember back in 2013 having 1379 01:24:59,280 --> 01:25:02,280 great excitement for different things that you could possibly 1380 01:25:02,280 --> 01:25:04,240 do on Bitcoin. And that is like, oh, no, This 1381 01:25:04,240 --> 01:25:05,800 is why. This is why this is not 1382 01:25:05,800 --> 01:25:09,080 happening. And so a good point. 1383 01:25:09,960 --> 01:25:12,920 Yeah, you also have people, it's like they get so focused on 1384 01:25:12,920 --> 01:25:16,640 their particular app and think that their app is the killer app 1385 01:25:16,640 --> 01:25:19,760 for Bitcoin that they forget that Bitcoin itself is the 1386 01:25:19,760 --> 01:25:24,800 killer app. And so when push comes to shove 1387 01:25:24,840 --> 01:25:30,200 and their app is rejected by the market or not brought into 1388 01:25:30,200 --> 01:25:33,720 Bitcoin in the way that they want or whatever, they view that 1389 01:25:33,720 --> 01:25:36,560 as a failure of Bitcoin rather than just, you know, 1390 01:25:36,560 --> 01:25:40,560 entrepreneurial loss of like, you had it, you had an idea and 1391 01:25:40,560 --> 01:25:43,520 it didn't work out. And so that lack of humility 1392 01:25:43,760 --> 01:25:46,440 puts their idea above Bitcoin itself. 1393 01:25:46,440 --> 01:25:49,040 And I think that's generally just a, a bad practice. 1394 01:25:49,040 --> 01:25:51,880 You should, you should bet on Bitcoin and conform yourself 1395 01:25:52,160 --> 01:25:54,120 around that rather than the other way around. 1396 01:25:54,120 --> 01:25:57,400 So I think I think that is a very important lesson for anyone 1397 01:25:57,400 --> 01:26:01,400 coming into Bitcoin is try to ask the question is like, why 1398 01:26:01,400 --> 01:26:05,600 are things the way they are rather than why aren't things 1399 01:26:05,600 --> 01:26:08,960 the way I want them to be? Probably good for life in 1400 01:26:08,960 --> 01:26:12,360 general. Well, you can take that broader 1401 01:26:12,360 --> 01:26:16,240 than than you can take that broader and and that 1402 01:26:16,240 --> 01:26:19,120 encapsulates, I think what we talked about for the past 90 1403 01:26:19,120 --> 01:26:21,160 minutes, right? If you know. 1404 01:26:21,160 --> 01:26:22,720 Yeah, yeah. Bitcoin is the killer app. 1405 01:26:22,720 --> 01:26:25,960 Money is the killer app. OK, Why should that thing exist? 1406 01:26:26,240 --> 01:26:30,040 Dive into that more. I mean, I was already into 1407 01:26:30,040 --> 01:26:33,640 Bitcoin four years when I, you know, discovered Ethereum and 1408 01:26:33,640 --> 01:26:38,360 Icos and NFTS and I did all that stuff too, all just to get back 1409 01:26:38,360 --> 01:26:41,520 to Bitcoin and realize that yes, money is the killer app. 1410 01:26:41,520 --> 01:26:48,520 And, and just a depth and, and breadth, I would say of fixing 1411 01:26:48,520 --> 01:26:54,160 that as a killer app is already stimulating in an intellectual 1412 01:26:54,160 --> 01:26:57,120 way, you know, for, for the coming years, I would say, 1413 01:26:57,120 --> 01:26:59,240 right. And that is, I think, the 1414 01:26:59,240 --> 01:27:01,120 humility also. Yeah, here. 1415 01:27:01,120 --> 01:27:04,080 Here's a spicy take. I think to to some degree that 1416 01:27:04,080 --> 01:27:07,080 kind of goes along with this too, which is a lot of the 1417 01:27:07,080 --> 01:27:10,360 things that people are excited about of something you can add 1418 01:27:10,360 --> 01:27:13,960 to Bitcoin to help it scale. I think Bitcoin would be just 1419 01:27:13,960 --> 01:27:16,800 fine without it, whatever, whatever it might be. 1420 01:27:17,760 --> 01:27:24,920 And what I mean by that is that I think people should, should 1421 01:27:24,920 --> 01:27:28,840 think about what we already have. 1422 01:27:29,680 --> 01:27:32,840 There's there's AI, I've brought this one up a lot, a lot. 1423 01:27:32,840 --> 01:27:36,400 But there's a there's an old like kind of Jewish song around 1424 01:27:36,400 --> 01:27:42,160 Passover called Dayenu. And the word dayenu is means it 1425 01:27:42,160 --> 01:27:45,360 would have been enough. And it's basically, you know, 1426 01:27:45,640 --> 01:27:48,120 when, when Jews are singing that they're basically saying, you 1427 01:27:48,120 --> 01:27:51,000 know, God could have just let us out of Egypt. 1428 01:27:51,040 --> 01:27:54,520 It would have been enough. But he also, you know, did this 1429 01:27:54,520 --> 01:27:58,440 and this, you know, he, he, he, you know, he, he, you know, 1430 01:27:58,440 --> 01:28:00,000 gives us mana from heaven or whatever. 1431 01:28:00,240 --> 01:28:02,480 And that would have been enough. But that and just like continue 1432 01:28:02,480 --> 01:28:04,480 to go on is like it would have been enough. 1433 01:28:04,480 --> 01:28:08,800 But we got even more. And when I look at a lot of 1434 01:28:08,800 --> 01:28:11,720 things in Bitcoin, I, I see Bitcoin as it is. 1435 01:28:12,040 --> 01:28:16,280 And I think Daenu, it's like that alone would have been 1436 01:28:16,280 --> 01:28:21,880 enough to give us a global sound money that would just change the 1437 01:28:21,880 --> 01:28:23,960 foundations of civilization for the better. 1438 01:28:24,400 --> 01:28:28,080 And any additional thing that does happen to get into Bitcoin, 1439 01:28:28,240 --> 01:28:30,840 which there are many to be excited about, everything from 1440 01:28:30,840 --> 01:28:34,440 lightning and so on like these. These are things that I, I'm 1441 01:28:34,440 --> 01:28:37,640 very much excited about and grateful that they exist. 1442 01:28:39,200 --> 01:28:42,600 But I also, I view those as like, well, it would have been 1443 01:28:42,600 --> 01:28:44,840 enough. Oh, but we also have lightning. 1444 01:28:44,960 --> 01:28:47,000 Wow, well, that also would have been enough. 1445 01:28:47,160 --> 01:28:50,760 But we also get things like tack route and so on and so forth. 1446 01:28:50,840 --> 01:28:57,240 And I think that attitude of just waiting for the whole world 1447 01:28:57,320 --> 01:29:03,040 to actually fully appreciate what we have before assuming 1448 01:29:03,120 --> 01:29:07,040 something else is truly needed in order to get Bitcoin to its 1449 01:29:07,120 --> 01:29:11,760 its ultimate conclusion. Multi sig. 1450 01:29:11,800 --> 01:29:14,840 We mentioned that earlier that was in Bitcoin from day one. 1451 01:29:15,520 --> 01:29:20,840 And yet it took basically almost a decade for there to finally be 1452 01:29:21,120 --> 01:29:28,200 a UX around it where people felt comfortable really using it sort 1453 01:29:28,200 --> 01:29:32,320 of at scale, so to speak, where is a a common institutional 1454 01:29:32,320 --> 01:29:36,360 practice. So just the fact that something 1455 01:29:36,360 --> 01:29:42,280 as simple as multi sig took that long to embed itself in the 1456 01:29:42,280 --> 01:29:46,080 economy makes me think that a lot of the other sort of 1457 01:29:46,080 --> 01:29:50,000 primitives of Bitcoin that we're working with as money are going 1458 01:29:50,000 --> 01:29:57,800 to take maybe even longer to really, you know, seep in to 1459 01:29:57,800 --> 01:30:01,880 like the the full scale of the entire global economy. 1460 01:30:01,880 --> 01:30:06,200 And so perhaps the things that people are quick to think are 1461 01:30:06,200 --> 01:30:10,320 absolutely necessary for some kind of form of bit Bitcoin 1462 01:30:10,320 --> 01:30:15,880 scaling, they might have, in my opinion, and this is not calling 1463 01:30:15,880 --> 01:30:18,080 any particular thing out. It's just sort of a general 1464 01:30:18,080 --> 01:30:20,680 observation. You know, some are going to be 1465 01:30:20,680 --> 01:30:25,840 different from others, but some of those sorts of feelings of, 1466 01:30:25,920 --> 01:30:33,200 of needing X to scale might have too narrow of a vision of what 1467 01:30:33,200 --> 01:30:38,520 it means for Bitcoin to successfully scale such that it 1468 01:30:38,520 --> 01:30:41,000 might not be the case that we actually need that thing in 1469 01:30:41,000 --> 01:30:45,240 particular to, to scale more than than what we already have 1470 01:30:45,240 --> 01:30:49,000 and and so on and so forth. If you if you have time, I'm I'm 1471 01:30:49,000 --> 01:30:53,920 happy to share my more historical lesson as well, but 1472 01:30:53,960 --> 01:31:00,280 I'm also happy to stop boring. Well, no, I love it. 1473 01:31:00,280 --> 01:31:03,560 I I was looking at the time I, I, I wanted to wrap up with with 1474 01:31:03,560 --> 01:31:06,360 two short questions. I perhaps we could do a Part 2 1475 01:31:06,360 --> 01:31:08,960 at some time. But I love, you know, I wanted 1476 01:31:08,960 --> 01:31:13,120 to conclude to what you said. That is also the humbleness in a 1477 01:31:13,120 --> 01:31:19,680 sense that once you see Bitcoin C as in yeah, again, all the 1478 01:31:19,680 --> 01:31:23,200 stuff I think we talked about, it doesn't mean it's there, 1479 01:31:23,640 --> 01:31:25,520 right? And just because you see it and 1480 01:31:25,520 --> 01:31:28,440 it's not there doesn't mean you should start adding stuff to it. 1481 01:31:28,440 --> 01:31:31,960 So it gets faster to that point. No, it means you need to stay 1482 01:31:31,960 --> 01:31:36,320 humble, stack the sets, you know, take the the low time 1483 01:31:36,320 --> 01:31:42,440 preference and help Bitcoin move towards that, that phase that 1484 01:31:42,440 --> 01:31:46,080 you already see, right. And I think the fact that people 1485 01:31:46,080 --> 01:31:49,880 see it, but but that Bitcoin is not there yet makes them 1486 01:31:50,600 --> 01:31:54,840 motivated to try to add on all this stuff where as you know, as 1487 01:31:54,840 --> 01:31:57,240 you, as you said, just don't do that. 1488 01:31:57,240 --> 01:31:59,440 This is this is just a thing, this is the killer app. 1489 01:31:59,440 --> 01:32:02,240 You know, just point your energy to work towards telling more 1490 01:32:02,240 --> 01:32:03,680 people that this is the killer app. 1491 01:32:04,360 --> 01:32:06,320 You don't have to build all the all the other stuff. 1492 01:32:06,320 --> 01:32:09,240 And that also requires some sort of humbleness, right? 1493 01:32:09,280 --> 01:32:13,240 Yes, I think it was Saint Augustine that said, you know, 1494 01:32:13,280 --> 01:32:16,520 humility is the foundation of all other virtues. 1495 01:32:16,920 --> 01:32:21,400 And I think the the way that we could apply this here is that 1496 01:32:21,840 --> 01:32:25,720 having that sort of humility towards Bitcoin is going to 1497 01:32:25,720 --> 01:32:33,840 allow you to step back and think more critically about Bitcoin, 1498 01:32:33,840 --> 01:32:37,000 about yourself and your own view of Bitcoin and so on and so 1499 01:32:37,000 --> 01:32:39,360 forth. So that you could the the best 1500 01:32:39,360 --> 01:32:44,720 ideas can actually come through. Because as as humble as we might 1501 01:32:44,720 --> 01:32:50,440 be, new ideas do come along, you know, TACOR, SegWit, you know, 1502 01:32:50,440 --> 01:32:54,120 these things did not exist at the beginning of Bitcoin. 1503 01:32:54,120 --> 01:32:56,040 They came later. And there's many things like it 1504 01:32:56,040 --> 01:32:59,480 that came later. And we, we all view those as as 1505 01:32:59,480 --> 01:33:02,920 wonderful things. So, you know, someone did have 1506 01:33:02,920 --> 01:33:05,680 to come up with new ideas. And that is a good thing. 1507 01:33:06,000 --> 01:33:09,280 New ideas are a wonderful thing. But we should have that. 1508 01:33:10,520 --> 01:33:13,080 We should, we should probably try to have it guided by 1509 01:33:13,080 --> 01:33:19,360 humility so that that we know that we're not like we said, 1510 01:33:19,400 --> 01:33:23,680 like we're not putting like our ideas ahead of the thing itself. 1511 01:33:24,600 --> 01:33:27,080 Yep, I agree. All right. 1512 01:33:27,320 --> 01:33:30,440 Last two short questions to to wrap it up. 1513 01:33:31,640 --> 01:33:35,160 What makes you most excited about the next decade for 1514 01:33:35,160 --> 01:33:38,760 Bitcoin? Going along with the last 1515 01:33:38,760 --> 01:33:45,160 answer, I mean, I think starting around 2020, I think especially 1516 01:33:45,160 --> 01:33:50,440 like the the entrance of Sailor, I think was a good indicator of 1517 01:33:50,440 --> 01:33:55,560 this. But just broadly speaking, since 1518 01:33:55,560 --> 01:34:01,720 then there has been such a massive shift in the way that 1519 01:34:01,720 --> 01:34:05,280 people look at Bitcoin. It's it's been a very positive 1520 01:34:05,520 --> 01:34:10,000 shift. It is incredible to see, not 1521 01:34:10,000 --> 01:34:13,240 that I agree with them on everything, but to see BlackRock 1522 01:34:13,240 --> 01:34:17,720 coming out and pumping my bags often in a way that I might say 1523 01:34:17,720 --> 01:34:23,080 the same thing is strange to say the least. 1524 01:34:23,960 --> 01:34:29,920 But it just goes to to show you how how much the the vibe shift 1525 01:34:30,440 --> 01:34:34,880 has happened. And so with that in mind, now 1526 01:34:34,880 --> 01:34:38,680 that like a lot of people have woken up to the problems of 1527 01:34:38,680 --> 01:34:47,560 inflation, the problems of banking on, you know, being able 1528 01:34:47,560 --> 01:34:51,000 to freeze people's accounts and all that kind of deep 1529 01:34:51,000 --> 01:34:56,680 platforming stuff that that many people have, have kind of had 1530 01:34:56,680 --> 01:35:01,160 been been had their eyes open to because of that. 1531 01:35:02,040 --> 01:35:05,400 What I'm really excited about is to see over the next 10 years, 1532 01:35:05,880 --> 01:35:09,120 how do we, how do we with, even without, if we didn't change 1533 01:35:09,120 --> 01:35:12,320 anything, how does just the fact that people can now look at 1534 01:35:12,320 --> 01:35:17,280 Bitcoin in a positive light mean that Bitcoin is going to start 1535 01:35:18,800 --> 01:35:23,400 subsuming the entire economy just because people have a, a, a 1536 01:35:24,080 --> 01:35:29,200 better view of it or, and, and have a more openness to, to take 1537 01:35:29,200 --> 01:35:32,520 a look at it. So I, I think there's a lot of 1538 01:35:32,520 --> 01:35:35,240 exciting technical stuff happening, but I'm really 1539 01:35:35,240 --> 01:35:43,640 excited to see how just the, the, the full extent of the like 1540 01:35:43,760 --> 01:35:48,320 the, the, the fact that this vibe shift has happened, just 1541 01:35:48,320 --> 01:35:50,600 seeing that to its, its full fruition. 1542 01:35:52,440 --> 01:35:55,800 Of that All right, last question, and I ask everyone the 1543 01:35:55,800 --> 01:35:59,200 same question, which is what is a core belief that you will 1544 01:35:59,200 --> 01:36:02,520 never let go? A core belief that I will never 1545 01:36:02,520 --> 01:36:06,920 let go. Well since it's a a Bitcoin 1546 01:36:06,920 --> 01:36:10,480 podcast I'll say 21 million is non negotiable. 1547 01:36:12,360 --> 01:36:15,160 Awesome man. Well, thanks so much for your 1548 01:36:15,160 --> 01:36:17,120 time. This was a a great long 1549 01:36:17,120 --> 01:36:20,640 conversation. I will link to, you know, your 1550 01:36:20,640 --> 01:36:23,480 social profile, Nakamoto Institute, so people can follow 1551 01:36:23,480 --> 01:36:25,960 you and check that out. And yeah, man, I want to thank 1552 01:36:25,960 --> 01:36:27,960 you again. Really appreciate your time and 1553 01:36:27,960 --> 01:36:30,400 enjoy this conversation. Yeah, thank you so much for 1554 01:36:30,400 --> 01:36:31,360 having me. It was a pleasure. 1555 01:36:31,840 --> 01:36:34,720 I hope you enjoyed this episode. If you did, you can click here 1556 01:36:34,720 --> 01:36:38,080 to find more just like it and click here to find all Bitcoin 1557 01:36:38,080 --> 01:36:40,080 for Millennials podcast episodes. 1558 01:36:40,480 --> 01:36:43,640 Also, please like this video if you want to help shine a light 1559 01:36:43,640 --> 01:36:46,640 on the message of Bitcoin and subscribe to my channel to stay 1560 01:36:46,640 --> 01:36:48,840 connected. I hope to see you for a next 1561 01:36:48,840 --> 01:36:49,840 episode. Bye.