1
00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:02,440
Hey there, this is from Constant
and you're listening to Bitcoin 

2
00:00:02,440 --> 00:00:04,200
for Millennials. 
Together with my guests on this 

3
00:00:04,200 --> 00:00:06,560
podcast, I go on a journey to 
discover how our current 

4
00:00:06,560 --> 00:00:09,320
financial system works, why it's
flawed, and why Bitcoin is the 

5
00:00:09,320 --> 00:00:11,600
most relevant technology that 
you, my fellow millennials, 

6
00:00:11,600 --> 00:00:14,920
should understand and adopt. 
In this episode, I'm joined by 

7
00:00:14,920 --> 00:00:17,160
Daniel Batten. 
He's a climate tech investor, 

8
00:00:17,160 --> 00:00:19,360
author, and business educator 
from New Zealand. 

9
00:00:19,680 --> 00:00:22,120
He has a passion for sustainable
development and entrepreneurship

10
00:00:22,120 --> 00:00:24,320
and spent 10 years training tech
CEO's. 

11
00:00:24,600 --> 00:00:27,000
His interesting climate tech led
him to discover the potential of

12
00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:29,120
Bitcoin as a tool to combat 
climate change. 

13
00:00:29,120 --> 00:00:33,160
He he's elaborated a lot of this
in his writings and activities, 

14
00:00:33,160 --> 00:00:36,360
counteracting mainstream beliefs
and cementing his place as 

15
00:00:36,360 --> 00:00:39,160
visionary in the field. 
His book How to Change the World

16
00:00:39,160 --> 00:00:42,400
with One Pitch, contains 
blueprint that he now uses to 

17
00:00:42,400 --> 00:00:44,160
effectively orange build people 
on Bitcoin. 

18
00:00:44,520 --> 00:00:46,160
I'm super excited to talk to him
today. 

19
00:00:46,640 --> 00:00:48,840
Welcome man. 
Thank you. 

20
00:00:48,840 --> 00:00:50,960
It's great to be on here. 
Appreciate the intro. 

21
00:00:51,800 --> 00:00:53,520
Yeah and thanks so much for 
coming on. 

22
00:00:53,520 --> 00:00:57,640
I my goal with this podcast is 
actually to talk to the people 

23
00:00:57,640 --> 00:01:03,360
that taught me a lot already on 
you know the the Internet and 

24
00:01:03,560 --> 00:01:07,640
and you're one of them and I 
absolutely love how how you dove

25
00:01:07,640 --> 00:01:12,960
into the climate aspect of 
Bitcoin and probably and I think

26
00:01:12,960 --> 00:01:15,320
we'll talk about it, you were 
you were on the other side 

27
00:01:15,320 --> 00:01:18,600
before but you saw the light. 
So I think it's a fascinating 

28
00:01:19,160 --> 00:01:21,600
personal journey as well to to 
talk about. 

29
00:01:21,600 --> 00:01:23,280
So yeah, really happy you're 
here, man. 

30
00:01:24,160 --> 00:01:25,480
Fantastic. 
Happy to be here. 

31
00:01:26,200 --> 00:01:29,240
So on your on your LinkedIn, I 
saw something that really 

32
00:01:29,240 --> 00:01:32,200
interests me. 
It said you said what really 

33
00:01:32,200 --> 00:01:34,200
matters is meditation and 
knowledge. 

34
00:01:34,520 --> 00:01:37,920
The West has made a major 
contribution to minor things, 

35
00:01:38,400 --> 00:01:41,040
but ancient wisdom and 
meditation can make us happy 

36
00:01:41,040 --> 00:01:44,240
people who change the world for 
the better, just as one flame 

37
00:01:44,240 --> 00:01:48,920
can light many lights. 
What are your thoughts behind 

38
00:01:48,920 --> 00:01:52,560
that? 
You know, it may not strike you 

39
00:01:52,720 --> 00:01:57,040
as a natural synergy with 
Bitcoin, but I found it 

40
00:01:57,040 --> 00:01:59,800
absolutely is. 
If you're going to write about 

41
00:01:59,880 --> 00:02:03,880
Bitcoin and how it's a positive 
force for fighting climate 

42
00:02:03,880 --> 00:02:10,080
change, then you better be ready
for #1 being criticized by 

43
00:02:10,199 --> 00:02:13,520
people within the Bitcoin 
ecosystem who say that climate 

44
00:02:13,520 --> 00:02:16,920
science is a sham. 
And #2 being criticized by 

45
00:02:16,920 --> 00:02:20,440
people outside the Bitcoin 
ecosystem who say that the idea 

46
00:02:20,440 --> 00:02:23,320
that Bitcoin can do anything 
positive for the climate is 

47
00:02:23,720 --> 00:02:29,120
heresy. 
So being comfortable with having

48
00:02:29,120 --> 00:02:33,760
people call you an idiot on a 
regular basis, unless you just 

49
00:02:33,760 --> 00:02:40,400
have this supremely natural glow
of maybe having been brought up 

50
00:02:40,400 --> 00:02:42,680
in a really well loved 
environment for many years and 

51
00:02:42,680 --> 00:02:46,920
just having great natural 
resilience, which I didn't have 

52
00:02:46,920 --> 00:02:52,880
the benefit of, Then you've got 
to look for other ways to build 

53
00:02:52,880 --> 00:02:56,800
that resilience. 
And I think a lot of people will

54
00:02:56,880 --> 00:02:59,480
avoid situations where they're 
going to be criticized on a 

55
00:02:59,480 --> 00:03:02,280
regular basis. 
And that's a shame because it 

56
00:03:02,280 --> 00:03:04,800
stops you growing, it stops you 
leaning in and it stops you 

57
00:03:04,800 --> 00:03:08,080
making a contribution. 
And the other alternative is 

58
00:03:08,080 --> 00:03:10,520
you, you toughen up and there's 
different ways to do it. 

59
00:03:10,520 --> 00:03:14,560
Some people do it by counter 
punching, but my technique is 

60
00:03:14,560 --> 00:03:20,200
just honestly, meditation has 
been the way where I can see 

61
00:03:20,200 --> 00:03:24,440
beyond my instant reaction, 
which is still there. 

62
00:03:25,240 --> 00:03:27,360
But these days I have a bit more
impulse control. 

63
00:03:27,600 --> 00:03:29,640
I can see the person where 
they're coming from their 

64
00:03:29,640 --> 00:03:32,520
perspective. 
So it's just been an incredibly 

65
00:03:32,520 --> 00:03:36,600
invaluable tool for me and I 
think as well, on my Bitcoin 

66
00:03:36,600 --> 00:03:38,400
journey. 
Sometimes when I thought in the 

67
00:03:38,400 --> 00:03:43,040
early days I was going crazy, 
when my intellect was telling me

68
00:03:43,040 --> 00:03:45,640
that Bitcoin was net positive 
for the environment and I was 

69
00:03:45,640 --> 00:03:47,840
just looking at the data and 
saying no, this cannot be true. 

70
00:03:48,400 --> 00:03:53,760
But the the intuition was saying
keep going, keep going. 

71
00:03:53,960 --> 00:03:56,800
You're on to something here. 
Even though everyone's telling 

72
00:03:56,800 --> 00:03:58,720
you you're a fool and an idiot 
and you're crazy and you're 

73
00:03:58,720 --> 00:04:00,600
greenwashing, you're onto 
something, keep going. 

74
00:04:01,080 --> 00:04:03,840
And and for me, meditation 
really helped me to trust. 

75
00:04:04,120 --> 00:04:06,520
Everyone has an intuition, but 
it helped me to trust it more. 

76
00:04:08,280 --> 00:04:09,960
Yeah, I I love what you just 
said. 

77
00:04:09,960 --> 00:04:13,160
I feel and and I've talked with 
a lot of people on this podcast 

78
00:04:13,160 --> 00:04:17,440
actually about the same thing. 
Like with Bitcoin is not only a 

79
00:04:17,440 --> 00:04:21,519
knowledge thing like you, 
there's lots of dimensions that 

80
00:04:21,519 --> 00:04:26,040
you can learn about. 
But this personal journey that's

81
00:04:26,120 --> 00:04:29,600
intertwined with that is just as
important, right? 

82
00:04:29,600 --> 00:04:33,160
As you said, like and I've exact
the same experience, right? 

83
00:04:33,160 --> 00:04:36,560
You think in a rational way 
through certain dimension of 

84
00:04:36,560 --> 00:04:40,320
Bitcoin and you end up at a 
certain place with a certain 

85
00:04:40,320 --> 00:04:43,920
realization and you think no, 
this this cannot be true. 

86
00:04:43,920 --> 00:04:47,320
It cannot be this big right like
you like the further you zoom 

87
00:04:47,320 --> 00:04:51,480
out with the you know and and 
like the what the effect that it

88
00:04:51,480 --> 00:04:55,640
could have and implications and 
so then your ego starts talking 

89
00:04:55,640 --> 00:04:58,560
right like no, you're probably 
wrong or this is like you're 

90
00:04:58,560 --> 00:05:00,680
crazy or or something like that 
right. 

91
00:05:00,720 --> 00:05:04,440
And as you just explained it and
also I think how I see it like 

92
00:05:04,440 --> 00:05:07,880
this meditation helps you keep 
keep you grounded right and also

93
00:05:08,760 --> 00:05:10,320
understand. 
The ego in check. 

94
00:05:10,840 --> 00:05:13,240
The ego can be exactly in the 
positive or the negative. 

95
00:05:13,240 --> 00:05:15,680
Like you say, ego doesn't mean 
you think you're full of it. 

96
00:05:15,680 --> 00:05:17,640
Ego can mean you go into self 
doubt. 

97
00:05:17,640 --> 00:05:20,520
That's also ego. 
Yes, it's a protection also, 

98
00:05:20,520 --> 00:05:21,360
right. 
Correct. 

99
00:05:22,480 --> 00:05:25,600
Yeah. 
So, so that again, transcending 

100
00:05:25,600 --> 00:05:28,520
that, getting past that and 
coming back to what is truth 

101
00:05:28,520 --> 00:05:30,840
rather than what's convenient 
for my ego to believe is 

102
00:05:30,840 --> 00:05:33,240
important. 
And look, there's times when 

103
00:05:33,240 --> 00:05:35,560
I've I've wished it was like, oh
really? 

104
00:05:35,840 --> 00:05:37,720
Is Bitcoin that good for the 
environment? 

105
00:05:37,720 --> 00:05:40,640
That really sucks. 
Because now when I state the 

106
00:05:40,640 --> 00:05:43,800
facts, I'm going to be called an
idiot by a lot more people than 

107
00:05:43,800 --> 00:05:47,480
if it wasn't as good. 
But again, that's ego, right? 

108
00:05:48,360 --> 00:05:50,880
And and part of the ego was 
like, well, maybe you should 

109
00:05:50,880 --> 00:05:53,120
just tone it down a little bit. 
I had this moment when I was 

110
00:05:53,640 --> 00:05:58,280
giving this keynote speech in 
Logano and I had the decision 

111
00:05:58,280 --> 00:06:03,160
about the title. 
So contender A was Bitcoin is 

112
00:06:03,160 --> 00:06:05,440
one of the world's best ESG 
assets. 

113
00:06:06,120 --> 00:06:14,320
OK, contended B was Bitcoin is 
the world's best ESG asset and I

114
00:06:14,320 --> 00:06:16,760
wanted to give it the first 
title because it was a little 

115
00:06:16,760 --> 00:06:19,360
bit safer. 
Yes, I didn't risk being called 

116
00:06:19,360 --> 00:06:21,080
an idiot by quite as many 
people. 

117
00:06:22,760 --> 00:06:26,240
But when I was looking at the 
data, I was like, no, the most 

118
00:06:26,480 --> 00:06:31,720
accurate description of this 
talk is actually to use Title B.

119
00:06:32,200 --> 00:06:35,560
Because what the data is telling
me is it's not one of the best, 

120
00:06:35,560 --> 00:06:39,440
it's the best. 
And so if I underplay it, I'm 

121
00:06:39,440 --> 00:06:42,680
going against the principles of 
my own book, which is that I'm 

122
00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:45,800
being disingenuous. 
Because to understate is just as

123
00:06:45,800 --> 00:06:47,840
disingenuous as to overstate 
something. 

124
00:06:47,880 --> 00:06:52,000
Because we do it for the same 
reasons, Because we want we want

125
00:06:52,000 --> 00:06:54,720
to gain something for ourselves 
and we want to avoid some pain 

126
00:06:54,720 --> 00:06:57,160
for ourselves, and that's never 
a good reason. 

127
00:06:57,160 --> 00:07:01,400
So you got to tell the truth. 
Yeah, it's like intellectually 

128
00:07:01,400 --> 00:07:03,880
dishonest either way. 
Right. 

129
00:07:04,200 --> 00:07:09,120
Yeah, either against yourself or
or to the benefit of the subject

130
00:07:09,120 --> 00:07:11,600
that that you're talking about. 
And I'm a Kiwi, I'm a New 

131
00:07:11,600 --> 00:07:16,360
Zealander, so we have this habit
of understanding everything and 

132
00:07:16,360 --> 00:07:19,080
as a culture and that's 
something that I've challenged a

133
00:07:19,080 --> 00:07:23,040
lot because it's resulted in New
Zealand having this. 

134
00:07:23,600 --> 00:07:26,320
On one hand it's incredible 
mentality for innovation and 

135
00:07:26,320 --> 00:07:30,680
technology, but on the other 
hand never really realizing the 

136
00:07:30,680 --> 00:07:33,160
fruits of that commercially 
because we undersell ourselves 

137
00:07:33,160 --> 00:07:37,560
so much and giving away 
technology for song or selling 

138
00:07:37,560 --> 00:07:40,240
equity in companies for a song. 
And that's what I've coached A 

139
00:07:40,240 --> 00:07:43,480
lot of CEOs of New Zealand 
companies is actually to be more

140
00:07:43,480 --> 00:07:46,840
confident in how they deliver 
what they have. 

141
00:07:47,680 --> 00:07:50,400
And because it's something that 
I recognize in myself that I've 

142
00:07:50,400 --> 00:07:53,480
had to fight against because the
fear of being perceived as 

143
00:07:53,480 --> 00:07:55,640
getting too big for your boots 
is huge. 

144
00:07:55,640 --> 00:07:58,160
We have this thing called tall, 
tall poppy syndrome, which is 

145
00:07:58,160 --> 00:08:01,040
prevalent in this culture where 
it's something you rise up too 

146
00:08:01,040 --> 00:08:04,040
high, you get shot down and you 
learn that from right early on 

147
00:08:04,040 --> 00:08:07,040
in school. 
Being ahead of the crowd, above 

148
00:08:07,040 --> 00:08:10,240
the crowd is not appreciated. 
So fitting in being in the 

149
00:08:10,240 --> 00:08:15,120
middle of the pack is 
everything, and so you're 

150
00:08:15,120 --> 00:08:18,400
fighting against some really 
entrenched cultural patterns of 

151
00:08:18,400 --> 00:08:20,240
behavior there. 
Yeah. 

152
00:08:20,720 --> 00:08:24,480
I wonder if there's like other 
subjects besides Bitcoin that 

153
00:08:24,480 --> 00:08:29,280
could actually challenge you in 
a personal way to to transcend 

154
00:08:29,280 --> 00:08:31,720
that, right. 
Like what you just said I I 

155
00:08:31,720 --> 00:08:33,520
again I have the same 
experience, right? 

156
00:08:33,520 --> 00:08:38,200
Like I know myself and then I'm 
an investigative rationale 

157
00:08:38,400 --> 00:08:42,200
hopefully honest person right. 
And sometimes with whatever 

158
00:08:42,200 --> 00:08:44,920
subjects that I researched in 
the past, right, you get to 

159
00:08:44,920 --> 00:08:48,360
certain points where you think, 
like, OK, this is now my 

160
00:08:48,360 --> 00:08:50,760
understanding and thus my 
belief, right? 

161
00:08:52,200 --> 00:08:55,040
But you still doubt yourself for
whatever reason. 

162
00:08:55,040 --> 00:08:58,040
Yeah, maybe it's culture, or 
you're a bit insecure, or 

163
00:08:58,040 --> 00:08:59,480
there's something with your ego,
right? 

164
00:09:00,240 --> 00:09:04,520
But with Bitcoin, I know. 
And I see that with you too. 

165
00:09:04,520 --> 00:09:06,600
Like, I know that I know. 
Right. 

166
00:09:06,720 --> 00:09:11,480
And so there's some point you 
just know, and it's the point at

167
00:09:11,480 --> 00:09:17,800
which for me it took about two 
months and there was a lot of 

168
00:09:17,800 --> 00:09:21,520
questioning during that time. 
And what I went through, I went 

169
00:09:21,520 --> 00:09:24,080
through this process. 
So I liken it to a due diligence

170
00:09:24,080 --> 00:09:26,920
process on a company. 
And I said, OK, if I was going 

171
00:09:26,920 --> 00:09:29,200
to do due diligence on 
technology, that's what I should

172
00:09:29,200 --> 00:09:32,200
do on Bitcoin. 
So I looked at it objectively 

173
00:09:32,200 --> 00:09:34,400
and due diligence means you 
don't believe anyone. 

174
00:09:36,080 --> 00:09:39,840
Yeah, you believe data and you 
know need to know the right data

175
00:09:40,480 --> 00:09:42,480
and you need to know when 
someone's bullshitting you. 

176
00:09:43,720 --> 00:09:45,640
And so. 
Am I asking the question, Sir? 

177
00:09:45,640 --> 00:09:46,880
Yeah. 
By asking the question the same.

178
00:09:47,040 --> 00:09:48,080
Role. 
Yes, exactly. 

179
00:09:48,080 --> 00:09:51,600
Yeah. 
So turns out being an investor 

180
00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:55,560
in a technology company is a 
really good qualification to 

181
00:09:55,880 --> 00:09:59,360
deciding whether Bitcoin has 
good ESG credentials or not. 

182
00:09:59,720 --> 00:10:04,480
Because you get very good at 
being skeptical of everyone that

183
00:10:04,480 --> 00:10:07,920
the pro Bitcoin and the anti 
Bitcoin perspective. 

184
00:10:07,920 --> 00:10:10,120
And I was to start with. 
So I was very skeptical. 

185
00:10:10,120 --> 00:10:12,560
When anyone from the Bitcoin 
ecosystem told me it was good 

186
00:10:12,560 --> 00:10:13,720
for the environment. 
I was skeptical. 

187
00:10:14,560 --> 00:10:17,560
But I was also equally skeptical
when someone who was against 

188
00:10:17,560 --> 00:10:19,680
Bitcoin told me that it was bad 
for the environment. 

189
00:10:21,440 --> 00:10:24,800
And so with that skepticism I 
just inquired into. 

190
00:10:25,000 --> 00:10:27,800
And so the only thing that was 
gonna change my perspective from

191
00:10:27,800 --> 00:10:33,480
skepticism, universal 
skepticism, was a sound logic, 

192
00:10:34,360 --> 00:10:42,680
Good data, contemporary data, 
representative data, and using 

193
00:10:42,680 --> 00:10:46,600
apples for apples comparisons 
and also having a sense of 

194
00:10:46,600 --> 00:10:50,480
longevity. 
So by that I mean I knew enough 

195
00:10:50,480 --> 00:10:54,720
from looking at climate tech 
that simply statements like 

196
00:10:54,720 --> 00:10:57,840
technology X is bad for the 
environment or has harmful 

197
00:10:57,840 --> 00:11:01,480
environment effects. 
That's a nonsense statement 

198
00:11:01,480 --> 00:11:02,640
because it's. 
Every. 

199
00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:04,960
Every technology is bad for the 
environment. 

200
00:11:05,320 --> 00:11:06,840
Every technology harms the 
environment. 

201
00:11:06,840 --> 00:11:09,120
Solar harms the environment. 
Wind harms the environment. 

202
00:11:10,320 --> 00:11:13,040
Carbon sequestration harms the 
environment, causes much more 

203
00:11:13,040 --> 00:11:14,680
carbon to go into the air than 
it takes out. 

204
00:11:15,440 --> 00:11:18,760
But we, we persevere with these 
technologies because we believe 

205
00:11:18,760 --> 00:11:20,960
that at some point there'll be a
tipping point and the scales 

206
00:11:20,960 --> 00:11:22,600
will change and will become 
positive. 

207
00:11:24,120 --> 00:11:27,960
And so I started to look at the 
rubric of you have to give a 

208
00:11:27,960 --> 00:11:31,160
technology a certain amount of 
grace period to prove itself, 

209
00:11:31,160 --> 00:11:32,720
but you also have to look at the
trajectory. 

210
00:11:32,720 --> 00:11:34,840
You see that it's not just green
washing. 

211
00:11:36,080 --> 00:11:40,120
So I looked at all those factors
and what I found universally was

212
00:11:40,120 --> 00:11:45,160
that the arguments against 
Bitcoin used old data. 

213
00:11:46,080 --> 00:11:49,240
They used non representative 
data and they used bad data. 

214
00:11:50,280 --> 00:11:55,080
They used metrics which were 
either made-up or not 

215
00:11:55,080 --> 00:12:00,200
meaningful, or lacked context. 
And they made statements which 

216
00:12:00,200 --> 00:12:04,640
lacked context, such as, for 
example, Bitcoin is powered 

217
00:12:04,640 --> 00:12:07,240
mostly by fossil fuels. 
That's true. 

218
00:12:08,040 --> 00:12:11,720
But the context is so does every
technology in the world that 

219
00:12:11,720 --> 00:12:15,000
uses the grid, because that's 
not actually measuring the 

220
00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:17,520
emissions of Bitcoin, it's 
measuring the emissions of the 

221
00:12:17,560 --> 00:12:19,640
underlying network. 
So there was a lot of 

222
00:12:19,640 --> 00:12:24,400
decontextualized information 
that relied on populations not 

223
00:12:24,400 --> 00:12:26,400
having a good understanding of 
that context. 

224
00:12:26,400 --> 00:12:29,680
And the the only reason you ever
do that, it's it's typically not

225
00:12:29,680 --> 00:12:31,800
an innocent mistake. 
It's typically because you have 

226
00:12:31,800 --> 00:12:33,960
gone out of your way to try to 
malign something. 

227
00:12:33,960 --> 00:12:36,840
Yes, yes, to make it look worse 
than it is. 

228
00:12:37,440 --> 00:12:41,880
So I found a lot of that on the 
anti Bitcoin side and then I 

229
00:12:41,880 --> 00:12:44,600
went to the pro Bitcoin side and
I expected to see just as much 

230
00:12:44,800 --> 00:12:47,640
spin and subterfuge and all 
those techniques. 

231
00:12:48,640 --> 00:12:50,800
So I went in skeptical. 
I heard statements like it's 

232
00:12:50,800 --> 00:12:52,440
good for the grid, it builds out
the grid. 

233
00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:55,840
I said how how much Show me and 
and there wasn't a lot of 

234
00:12:55,840 --> 00:12:59,760
evidence that there was some 
evidence, but it could wasn't 

235
00:12:59,760 --> 00:13:02,800
quantified well. 
So I said well that's good, but 

236
00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:04,760
let's investigate And I kept on 
investigating. 

237
00:13:04,760 --> 00:13:06,840
I said, well, look, it does have
potential, you're right. 

238
00:13:06,840 --> 00:13:09,800
But it hasn't been quantified. 
And that's not an argument 

239
00:13:09,800 --> 00:13:11,480
against it. 
It just means that you can't 

240
00:13:11,680 --> 00:13:14,840
make that claim with any force 
until you've done some 

241
00:13:14,840 --> 00:13:17,400
quantification. 
And so I started to ask, OK, 

242
00:13:17,400 --> 00:13:19,600
let's start to quantify. 
I got curious and I said, well, 

243
00:13:19,600 --> 00:13:21,760
what have I quantified? 
It doesn't look like it's that 

244
00:13:21,760 --> 00:13:25,160
hard. 
This could be quantified and I 

245
00:13:25,160 --> 00:13:27,560
started to and the more I 
quantified, I thought, holy 

246
00:13:27,560 --> 00:13:30,040
crap, this is it. 
This actually could be really, 

247
00:13:30,040 --> 00:13:32,600
really good. 
And I looked at things such as 

248
00:13:32,600 --> 00:13:37,240
its capacity to accelerate 
renewable transition, its 

249
00:13:37,480 --> 00:13:41,760
capacity to make renewable 
operations more profitable, the 

250
00:13:41,760 --> 00:13:46,560
amount of emission reduction 
that it could cause to a just 

251
00:13:46,560 --> 00:13:50,080
generally on a grid. 
And then I got fascinated, as 

252
00:13:50,080 --> 00:13:52,360
you know, with the whole methane
mitigation question. 

253
00:13:52,360 --> 00:13:54,600
And one of the reasons I got 
fascinated with this is it's 

254
00:13:54,600 --> 00:13:58,640
just so easy to measure. 
You can measure directly if 

255
00:13:58,640 --> 00:14:01,120
you're using a power source, 
which is methane going into the 

256
00:14:01,160 --> 00:14:05,160
air and you stop that going into
an air and you pipe it into a 

257
00:14:05,160 --> 00:14:08,440
generator instead with a bit of 
purification first so it doesn't

258
00:14:09,120 --> 00:14:12,000
mess up the generator. 
And then so that could become 

259
00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:19,440
and create a landfill or a farm 
or wastewater facility or an oil

260
00:14:19,440 --> 00:14:22,600
field which has a had a flare 
stack or was even venting it 

261
00:14:22,640 --> 00:14:25,400
worse and you put it into a 
generator, you can measure 

262
00:14:25,400 --> 00:14:29,000
exactly how many emissions would
have gone into the environment 

263
00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:31,880
which are now not going into the
environment which had been used 

264
00:14:31,880 --> 00:14:35,240
for Bitcoin mining. 
And I started to get really, 

265
00:14:35,240 --> 00:14:37,880
really fascinated by that. 
And I thought, you know what? 

266
00:14:38,160 --> 00:14:42,680
This is actually, not only is 
this, let's be really clear 

267
00:14:42,680 --> 00:14:44,560
right now. 
It's not negative, it's not 

268
00:14:44,600 --> 00:14:46,720
positive for the environment or 
we can't say that it is. 

269
00:14:47,040 --> 00:14:50,040
But the important thing is that 
it actually is trending in that 

270
00:14:50,040 --> 00:14:52,320
direction and there's no 
question. 

271
00:14:52,640 --> 00:14:55,840
So it's a little bit like where 
solar was in 19 in the early 

272
00:14:55,840 --> 00:14:59,480
1990s, where solar had this 
massive carbon debt for a long 

273
00:14:59,480 --> 00:15:02,280
time because it uses coal 
furnaces to melt the silicon at 

274
00:15:02,520 --> 00:15:08,560
14114° huge, so carbon debt and 
it didn't pay it off until the 

275
00:15:08,560 --> 00:15:11,480
2000 and 10s, around 2018 I 
believe it was. 

276
00:15:12,000 --> 00:15:14,240
So that's a long time. 
It was invented the 1950s, 

277
00:15:14,240 --> 00:15:19,760
that's 70 years almost that it's
taken 60 something years to pay 

278
00:15:19,760 --> 00:15:22,440
off its carbon debt. 
Bitcoins going to do it in less 

279
00:15:22,440 --> 00:15:25,920
than half the time on its 
current trajectory, which is 

280
00:15:25,920 --> 00:15:28,240
massive and it's just going to 
keep on going and going and 

281
00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:31,960
going and it and again, yes it 
has e-waste issues, but again 

282
00:15:32,120 --> 00:15:33,960
every technology has e-waste 
issues. 

283
00:15:34,200 --> 00:15:37,440
My old Macintosh though thrown 
out has an e-waste waste issue 

284
00:15:37,440 --> 00:15:39,560
and I tried to use it for as 
long as I possibly could. 

285
00:15:40,320 --> 00:15:42,960
Solar has an e-waste issue and 
it's much harder to dispose of 

286
00:15:42,960 --> 00:15:44,360
them than it is a Bitcoin 
mining. 

287
00:15:44,720 --> 00:15:47,280
So again, you have to look at 
these things in context. 

288
00:15:47,320 --> 00:15:50,360
You have to do apples for apples
comparisons and you have to look

289
00:15:50,360 --> 00:15:52,640
at the long term trajectory of a
technology. 

290
00:15:53,240 --> 00:15:57,840
And simple stuff like if you're 
measuring the health of a 

291
00:15:57,840 --> 00:16:02,400
business and you're an auditor 
and you come back and you say 

292
00:16:02,400 --> 00:16:06,960
this business is in terrible 
shape and someone says how do 

293
00:16:06,960 --> 00:16:08,280
you know that? 
He said, well, I looked at its 

294
00:16:08,280 --> 00:16:12,360
expenses and they're off the 
charts and they said, well, what

295
00:16:12,360 --> 00:16:16,080
about its revenue? 
So I didn't measure that and 

296
00:16:16,160 --> 00:16:18,640
they'd fire you because that's 
gross incompetence. 

297
00:16:19,600 --> 00:16:23,040
And yet it's seen as perfectly 
acceptable that someone should 

298
00:16:23,040 --> 00:16:26,840
go in and evaluate a technology 
and only look at the expense 

299
00:16:26,840 --> 00:16:30,800
line, IE the negative 
environmental externalities, and

300
00:16:30,800 --> 00:16:33,920
say this technology is terrible.
And then someone says, what 

301
00:16:33,920 --> 00:16:36,080
about positive environmental 
technologies? 

302
00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:37,760
Oh come on, it doesn't have any.
Don't be ridiculous. 

303
00:16:37,760 --> 00:16:40,040
That's Screen Wash You'd fire 
the person. 

304
00:16:40,080 --> 00:16:41,440
You say, no, you're not being 
objective. 

305
00:16:41,440 --> 00:16:43,960
You have to look at both. 
You have to objectively access 

306
00:16:43,960 --> 00:16:46,480
both, And only when you've done 
that are you in a position to 

307
00:16:46,480 --> 00:16:49,520
make any sensible statement 
about the net benefit of this 

308
00:16:49,520 --> 00:16:51,880
technology. 
And then it's only at a point in

309
00:16:51,880 --> 00:16:53,000
time you have to look at 
trajectory. 

310
00:16:53,080 --> 00:16:55,520
How's it tracking through time? 
Is it getting worse? 

311
00:16:55,680 --> 00:16:57,920
Is it the same? 
Is it better? 

312
00:16:58,760 --> 00:17:00,760
And none of this analysis was 
occurring. 

313
00:17:01,560 --> 00:17:04,680
And So what I wanted to do is 
introduce some of the rigor that

314
00:17:04,680 --> 00:17:07,560
someone who was evaluating 
climate technology would apply 

315
00:17:07,560 --> 00:17:10,480
to Bitcoin. 
And once you do that, you get a 

316
00:17:10,480 --> 00:17:14,640
completely different picture and
it's very much that it has the 

317
00:17:14,640 --> 00:17:17,960
potential to be Nick positive. 
And even today you can say that 

318
00:17:17,960 --> 00:17:22,200
across six different metrics, 
it's become the number one ESG 

319
00:17:22,359 --> 00:17:25,079
asset in the world, which is 
phenomenal. 

320
00:17:26,760 --> 00:17:28,040
Yeah, and fascinating to the 
ego. 

321
00:17:28,840 --> 00:17:31,400
Yeah. 
There's so much to unpack here. 

322
00:17:31,400 --> 00:17:33,760
Like, I've been on your side as 
well. 

323
00:17:33,760 --> 00:17:37,920
Like on the investor side, I've 
seen hundreds of thousands of 

324
00:17:37,920 --> 00:17:40,360
thousands of pitches, decks, all
that stuff. 

325
00:17:40,360 --> 00:17:43,600
And I love what you said about 
that. 

326
00:17:43,960 --> 00:17:46,800
All those decks, you know, all 
the graphs go up and to the 

327
00:17:46,800 --> 00:17:51,920
right, you know, and pitching an
investor like that moment for an

328
00:17:51,920 --> 00:17:55,600
entrepreneur, I always viewed as
like I am. 

329
00:17:56,240 --> 00:17:57,920
I'm at a baseline. 
I'm at 0. 

330
00:17:57,920 --> 00:18:00,400
I have no expectations. 
I didn't prep. 

331
00:18:00,720 --> 00:18:03,880
You decide what You tell me, 
right. 

332
00:18:03,880 --> 00:18:06,680
This is your moment. 
So you decide what's in the deck

333
00:18:06,680 --> 00:18:09,400
and what the what the graphs 
represent and all these things. 

334
00:18:09,400 --> 00:18:11,760
Right? 
And you're the expert telling me

335
00:18:11,840 --> 00:18:13,760
why this is a good business, 
right? 

336
00:18:13,920 --> 00:18:17,760
So you're like positively 
critical. 

337
00:18:17,760 --> 00:18:20,160
Your stance is like, OK, well 
show me, right. 

338
00:18:21,040 --> 00:18:24,920
But then if I am the base layer 
zero and I can shoot holes in 

339
00:18:24,920 --> 00:18:28,840
your story, then that is already
a big signal that you don't know

340
00:18:28,840 --> 00:18:30,280
what you're talking about, 
right? 

341
00:18:30,360 --> 00:18:32,600
Or you're outset, just like you 
said. 

342
00:18:32,600 --> 00:18:34,160
Like the the outset is flawed 
right? 

343
00:18:34,160 --> 00:18:38,080
Like oh I'll I'll try to 
convince Daniel to give me money

344
00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:42,160
by selling this. 
You know, unsubstantiated. 

345
00:18:42,160 --> 00:18:44,520
If your methodology it's 
fundamentally flawed, it's 

346
00:18:44,680 --> 00:18:46,160
you're going to, you're going to
see it like that. 

347
00:18:46,760 --> 00:18:49,440
Exactly right. 
If you so this way if you if you

348
00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:52,280
tell me Bitcoin is using mostly 
fossil fuel, I'm not going to 

349
00:18:52,280 --> 00:18:55,560
go, oh, OK, I'm going to go, 
yeah, prove it, show me the 

350
00:18:55,560 --> 00:18:57,440
data. 
Where did that data come from? 

351
00:18:57,920 --> 00:19:00,160
How do you know it's accurate? 
What date did you gather the 

352
00:19:00,160 --> 00:19:01,520
data? 
How do you know that the 

353
00:19:01,520 --> 00:19:03,640
jurisdictions you got it from 
are accurate? 

354
00:19:04,120 --> 00:19:07,640
And show me your methodology. 
I'm going to look straight for 

355
00:19:07,640 --> 00:19:09,920
the the section and the 
methodology which says 

356
00:19:09,920 --> 00:19:12,600
limitations. 
And so that's what I did with 

357
00:19:12,600 --> 00:19:15,760
the Cambridge model. 
It's like, OK, step one, look at

358
00:19:15,760 --> 00:19:17,960
the statistics. 
Step 2, go to the limitation 

359
00:19:17,960 --> 00:19:19,720
sections of the model. 
That's what I do with any model,

360
00:19:19,720 --> 00:19:21,000
whether it's positive or 
negative. 

361
00:19:21,480 --> 00:19:23,160
Yeah. 
And then re. 

362
00:19:23,240 --> 00:19:26,800
Limitation 2017 or something 
right there, today and then. 

363
00:19:26,800 --> 00:19:29,720
It said, and then there are two 
key bits of information there. 

364
00:19:29,720 --> 00:19:34,720
It said, well, I'm paraphrasing 
here, but basically we haven't 

365
00:19:34,720 --> 00:19:40,360
updated our mining map since 
January the 1st, 2021, OK? 

366
00:19:40,640 --> 00:19:45,480
And I kind of put a mental note 
and I had a question which is, 

367
00:19:45,720 --> 00:19:50,400
is Bitcoin mining A dynamic 
system like changes in political

368
00:19:50,400 --> 00:19:53,280
opinions, such that being one 
year out of date really matters?

369
00:19:53,280 --> 00:19:55,640
And I had that question because 
it was only that was about a 

370
00:19:55,640 --> 00:19:57,200
year ago when I first discovered
that. 

371
00:19:58,440 --> 00:20:01,840
Or is it so stable that it 
doesn't matter because that's a 

372
00:20:01,880 --> 00:20:04,600
that's a flaw, but it's not 
necessarily a meaningful flaw. 

373
00:20:04,600 --> 00:20:07,520
So you have to be, you have to 
be kind as well, you can't be 

374
00:20:07,520 --> 00:20:10,760
too critical because all models 
have flaws, including my own 

375
00:20:10,760 --> 00:20:13,560
models. 
And then the second thing which 

376
00:20:13,560 --> 00:20:17,120
intrigued me was it said we 
don't include off grid mining. 

377
00:20:17,800 --> 00:20:20,320
So then I had a second question.
I thought, OK, is that a 

378
00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:24,000
meaningful omission? 
I said well to in order for it 

379
00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:26,080
to be meaningful, two things 
would have to be true. 

380
00:20:26,080 --> 00:20:30,000
There would have to be a lot of 
off grid mining and it would 

381
00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:34,600
need to be heavily weighted in a
way which is different to on 

382
00:20:34,600 --> 00:20:36,960
grid mining. 
Either it uses a lot more fossil

383
00:20:36,960 --> 00:20:39,000
fuel or a lot less compared to 
on grid. 

384
00:20:40,120 --> 00:20:42,520
So then I went out of my way to 
say, Oh well, let's measure that

385
00:20:42,800 --> 00:20:47,320
stupid idea six months later, 
spending way too long at it. 

386
00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:52,400
Finally I had, you know, the 
first signs of that data and it 

387
00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:55,200
was by number means complete. 
And it still has taken about a 

388
00:20:55,200 --> 00:20:57,840
year and a half and it's still 
not complete because no one 

389
00:20:57,840 --> 00:20:59,560
knows how many off grid miners 
there are. 

390
00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:04,160
But the interesting thing is 
that of the off grid mining we 

391
00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:08,200
do know about which it's it's 
30% of the entire network and 

392
00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:11,680
that's a minimum remember 
because it could be much higher.

393
00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:14,520
And in fact we know that it's 
probably higher because there's 

394
00:21:14,520 --> 00:21:17,680
there's a disparity between if 
you model and you total up the 

395
00:21:17,680 --> 00:21:19,920
hash rate and you look at the 
actual hash rate, there's a gap 

396
00:21:20,520 --> 00:21:23,040
and those people are almost 
certainly off grid mining 

397
00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:24,920
somewhere. 
We just don't know where. 

398
00:21:25,880 --> 00:21:32,000
But what we do know is we know 
the mix of those known off grid 

399
00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:37,120
miners is 75% percent weighted 
towards sustainable electricity 

400
00:21:37,160 --> 00:21:43,800
use, 75% the on grid miners are 
using 45% sustainable 

401
00:21:43,800 --> 00:21:46,720
electricity. 
So if you have a model which 

402
00:21:46,720 --> 00:21:56,080
excludes 30% of your population 
who are using 75% versus 45% of 

403
00:21:56,080 --> 00:21:59,200
a fuel mix, that's going to make
a massive difference to the 

404
00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:00,560
overall statistic. 
And it does. 

405
00:22:01,120 --> 00:22:04,120
It's the difference between the 
Cambridge model, if it was up to

406
00:22:04,120 --> 00:22:07,880
date should say 45%. 
If it was assuming all mining 

407
00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:10,760
was happening on grid. 
But if you factor an off grid as

408
00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:15,560
well, it brings it up to 54%. 
Now is that significant? 

409
00:22:15,560 --> 00:22:19,640
Well, it's very significant 
because all the news outlets, 

410
00:22:20,440 --> 00:22:25,920
the EU Commission, Greenpeace, 
environmental organizations, 

411
00:22:26,120 --> 00:22:29,720
environmentalists around the 
world, lobbyists all rely on 

412
00:22:29,720 --> 00:22:33,680
that Cambridge data. 
And that Cambridge data is 

413
00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:37,560
telling us that most of bitcoins
fuel use is fossil fuel. 

414
00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:42,880
Whereas we know because of model
limitations that it's highly 

415
00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:46,320
likely that Bitcoin is using at 
least 54% sustainable 

416
00:22:46,320 --> 00:22:50,480
electricity and that's due to 
meaningful exclusions from the 

417
00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:53,440
model. 
The analogy that I use, it's 

418
00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:56,480
imagine if you wanted to predict
the result of an election and 

419
00:22:56,480 --> 00:22:59,320
Cambridge's Cambridge will say, 
well, the reason we don't 

420
00:22:59,320 --> 00:23:03,480
include off grid is it's really 
hard to gather that data, which 

421
00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:07,880
is true if you're an academic. 
If you're an academic and you're

422
00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:13,000
used to gathering data by doing 
the the methods that academics 

423
00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:16,680
use, right, which is inquiring 
existing literature and building

424
00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:19,440
models, but not doing field 
research, not talking to actual 

425
00:23:19,440 --> 00:23:22,520
miners, not engaging with 
communities for the most part, 

426
00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:27,600
then yes, it's going to be 
extremely hard to get that data.

427
00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:29,960
So you have to actually talk to 
people. 

428
00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:33,480
You have to actually mix with 
people who are Bitcoin miners, 

429
00:23:34,160 --> 00:23:36,800
and that's not called 
compromising your objectivity, 

430
00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:39,040
that's called gathering data, 
that's called doing field 

431
00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:41,120
research. 
So you have to augment a 

432
00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:44,640
theoretical model with a field 
research based approach and only

433
00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:47,800
then you get a hybrid model 
which builds up into something 

434
00:23:47,800 --> 00:23:51,400
meaningful. 
Now I went into the weeds in 

435
00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:55,000
that because the consequences of
this are enormous. 

436
00:23:55,880 --> 00:23:58,400
The consequence of getting that 
data wrong could mean that the 

437
00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:01,760
EU Commission could decide to 
ban Bitcoin mining in Europe, or

438
00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:05,960
at least conclude that Bitcoin 
mining is bad for the 

439
00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:08,440
environment, which in turn 
triggers A domino effect which 

440
00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:10,720
eventually learns to an outright
ban in Europe. 

441
00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:16,560
All based on some fundamental 
flaws in a model, which are 

442
00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:20,080
stated on the Cambridge website.
But what's not stated is the 

443
00:24:20,080 --> 00:24:23,040
impact of those exclusions 
because they themselves don't 

444
00:24:23,040 --> 00:24:25,240
know, because they haven't done 
that field research. 

445
00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:27,880
So. 
So that's an example of just 

446
00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:29,920
where I'm going to get into the 
weeds. 

447
00:24:30,360 --> 00:24:34,840
I'm going to, you know, query 
some sacred cows. 

448
00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:37,480
It's not about where the data is
convenient to gather or where 

449
00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:41,480
that happens to correspond with 
you, the the the methods of data

450
00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:43,680
gathering that you're familiar 
with and comfortable with. 

451
00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:45,240
That's got nothing to do with 
it. 

452
00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:47,880
If you're going to predict the 
result of an election, you can't

453
00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:51,440
just say, hey, it's inconvenient
to survey rural voters. 

454
00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:55,160
So we're only going to do a 
survey of of urban voters. 

455
00:24:55,160 --> 00:24:57,080
And then you come up with some 
results and some people say, 

456
00:24:57,080 --> 00:24:59,200
well, you didn't survey rural 
voters. 

457
00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:00,520
We know they're going to be more
conservative. 

458
00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:02,920
So of course this is going to be
look more liberal than it 

459
00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:04,600
actually is. 
And then you get the actual 

460
00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:09,080
election and yeah. 
But is that clumsiness or is 

461
00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:10,760
that on purpose? 
Like what? 

462
00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:12,880
What are your faults there? 
Nothing to do with clumsiness. 

463
00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:14,640
It's to do it. 
It's to do with. 

464
00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:20,160
It's to do with the fact that 
it's hard, If you're an academic

465
00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:22,840
to do field research, it's 
really hard. 

466
00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:26,800
But it's also a choice to not 
add a big disclaimer on the 

467
00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:29,240
front page of your report. 
That's actually my. 

468
00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:31,560
Age of criticism? 
So I think you know Cambridge 

469
00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:34,360
deserve credit for being 
transparent about their model 

470
00:25:34,360 --> 00:25:37,160
limitations. 
However, they deserve criticism 

471
00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:40,640
by not making that the headline.
Exactly, yeah. 

472
00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:43,720
And there should be a huge 
disclaimer. 

473
00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:46,400
Their defenses, they say we have
to start somewhere. 

474
00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:49,600
But the problem is by starting 
somewhere everyone looks at the 

475
00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:52,160
Cambridge and they know this. 
They look at the Cambridge 

476
00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:54,040
model, they look at the 
Cambridge brand, they go, oh 

477
00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:56,480
Cambridge, I must be right. 
And then they look at Bitcoin 

478
00:25:56,480 --> 00:25:58,320
mining council and they say, 
well that's industry bottle 

479
00:25:58,360 --> 00:26:00,840
body, that must be wrong. 
And then they look at this guy 

480
00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:01,920
Daniel Ben and they say who's 
he? 

481
00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:04,360
It's not even P result, he's 
just some Bitcoin maxi. 

482
00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:07,440
But I'm not. 
But that's what it looks like to

483
00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:09,960
the outside because I'm so 
favorably disposed towards 

484
00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:13,720
Bitcoin. 
But that's not because I bought 

485
00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:16,080
a whole lot of Bitcoin in the 
early days and then had some 

486
00:26:16,080 --> 00:26:18,680
self fulfilling prophecies I 
wanted to fulfill and make out. 

487
00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:20,040
It was good. 
Which is what a lot of 

488
00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:23,640
environmentalists assume it was 
because I actually, I had no 

489
00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:27,200
interest in Bitcoin at all and I
got interested in Bitcoin mining

490
00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:28,680
before I got interested in 
Bitcoin. 

491
00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:31,760
That came second. 
I had no interest in Bitcoin. 

492
00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:37,920
I had some theoretical interest 
but but it was like maybe you 

493
00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:40,600
know, 20th down on a list of 
things that I was interested in.

494
00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:45,400
Yeah, so, so there was a very 
different standpoint that I came

495
00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:47,840
to understand it. 
So, so the the issue with 

496
00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:52,680
Cambridge here is that it's not 
enough to put it in the small 

497
00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:55,200
print. 
When you know that people are 

498
00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:57,920
depending upon your brand and 
your reputation to make far 

499
00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:01,800
reaching intergenerational 
decisions around mining policy, 

500
00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:05,080
you should have this massive 
disclaimer that say this number 

501
00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:11,800
here is likely to be 
understating sustainable energy 

502
00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:15,720
use because it excludes off grid
mining. 

503
00:27:16,120 --> 00:27:20,160
And we haven't brought the model
up to date until such time as 

504
00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:25,640
we've added these things in this
figure is no longer trustworthy.

505
00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:29,200
Yeah, that would be true 
transparency. 

506
00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:35,440
And isn't this also like a clash
of like old and new world in a 

507
00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:38,560
sense I have to also think about
what we saw yesterday with the 

508
00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:42,960
ETF launch where certain banks 
don't allow their customers to 

509
00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:45,000
buy it because it doesn't align 
etcetera. 

510
00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:51,120
Like this goes back to, I almost
almost want to say the beginning

511
00:27:51,120 --> 00:27:55,040
of our conversation about this 
ego or not being aware of of 

512
00:27:55,040 --> 00:28:00,720
yourself and how you feel or how
you like operate. 

513
00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:05,360
I almost want to say right, 
Because when you do research and

514
00:28:05,360 --> 00:28:08,840
you end up with a conclusion 
that you are uncomfortable with,

515
00:28:09,120 --> 00:28:11,760
that doesn't mean that the 
conclusion is not right, you 

516
00:28:11,760 --> 00:28:13,800
know? 
And so as you just mentioned, 

517
00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:16,040
Cambridge doesn't give this 
disclaimer. 

518
00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:18,640
They know. 
They have, you know, a certain 

519
00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:23,400
power in the world with sharing 
their knowledge, right. 

520
00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:27,720
And so it's kind of it. 
It is disingenuous in a way 

521
00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:31,480
because they know, you know, 
what their method was and and 

522
00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:35,360
they decide not to give this 
disclaimer And what has helped 

523
00:28:35,360 --> 00:28:38,840
me a lot in Bitcoin as well, 
like, the hardest thing I think 

524
00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:40,440
is challenging your own beliefs,
right? 

525
00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:43,120
Like you end up with a certain 
conclusion based on rationale 

526
00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:45,600
and then you're like, Oh no, 
this is like totally against 

527
00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:49,160
what I thought was true. 
But when you get over that, you 

528
00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:54,840
know, then I think Bitcoin 
clicks more on one sense. 

529
00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:57,960
But you are also incentivized. 
And I think that's for me the 

530
00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:01,760
deeper meaning also of Bitcoin. 
It's a mutual beneficial 

531
00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:07,640
technology basically, right? 
Like it's I'm incentivized not 

532
00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:10,520
because of the number go up. 
I'm incentivized because I am 

533
00:29:10,520 --> 00:29:15,120
forced to follow not only my 
intuition but what I know is 

534
00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:17,360
true. 
And that is what gives me the 

535
00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:20,160
personal struggle. 
And you see in the old world 

536
00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:25,040
that people kind of yeah, they 
they they don't even start 

537
00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:29,480
struggling basically, right. 
They they just well say I'm 

538
00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:32,640
Cambridge and this is the this 
is the number and who is Daniel 

539
00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:34,240
Batten from New Zealand on 
Twitter. 

540
00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:37,000
But that is a disingenuous 
thing. 

541
00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:41,720
It's a it's a it's a weak frame 
almost a personal weak frame 

542
00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:46,320
where these people just stay in 
the, yeah, same same way of 

543
00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:49,080
working or thinking and not 
challenging themselves like I 

544
00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:52,600
yeah, I find that fascinating 
that their incentive is that and

545
00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:58,520
our incentive is just amplifying
what we understand is the truth.

546
00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:03,600
One of the things that running a
technology company teaches you 

547
00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:08,360
is that to to beat your 
competition, it's not enough to 

548
00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:10,240
be better. 
You have to be 10 times better 

549
00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:15,680
at what you do because the the 
power that comes with the brand 

550
00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:18,080
of the people you're up against 
and the marketing engines and 

551
00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:22,480
the history and the established 
relationship is so strong that 

552
00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:25,040
you you have to be 10X better to
get traction. 

553
00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:29,440
And that's true in knowledge 
transfer as well. 

554
00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:33,360
If you want to go up and say, 
you know Cambridge is wrong and 

555
00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:38,120
I'm right and not just look like
you're arrogant, then you've got

556
00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:40,600
to you. 
You can't just have a slightly 

557
00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:42,000
better model. 
You've got to have a model 

558
00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:45,560
that's way better, that's way 
more robust, that's way more 

559
00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:49,880
nuanced that and that your 
articulation about why Cambridge

560
00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:54,040
is is wrong has got to be so on 
point, has got to be expressed 

561
00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:57,440
in a way which is still 
respectful because they have 

562
00:30:57,440 --> 00:30:59,360
done good work to put that model
out there. 

563
00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:02,640
And it is has been for a long 
time the best model. 

564
00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:05,760
And they were The Pioneers and 
it was accurate up until two 

565
00:31:05,760 --> 00:31:08,480
years ago. 
And what's happened is that 

566
00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:12,520
since that two years, mining's 
moved off grid and their focus 

567
00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:16,520
has moved off Bitcoin onto 
Ethereum due to resource 

568
00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:21,880
constraints. 
And so there's a whole lot of 

569
00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:23,520
things you just gotta be good 
at. 

570
00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:27,400
And then even then it's hard. 
You got your work stack up 

571
00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:30,280
because of course you're a 
nobody from the edge of the 

572
00:31:30,280 --> 00:31:35,120
earth saying, look, you should 
use our model or you should use 

573
00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:37,040
our software or you should use 
our technology. 

574
00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:39,040
It's better. 
And Bitcoin has had this problem

575
00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:43,800
as well, where it's very clear 
to me now that it's sound money 

576
00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:47,040
and that Fiat is not. 
But to start with it, it looks 

577
00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:49,600
like an upstart. 
And you have this, an entrenched

578
00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:52,360
system which has the brand, 
which has the trust, which has 

579
00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:54,680
the reputation, which has the 
trusted networks had all these 

580
00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:56,280
things. 
So again, it's not enough that 

581
00:31:56,280 --> 00:31:58,960
bitcoins better than fair. 
It has to be 10 times, not even 

582
00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:02,440
10 * 100 * 1000 times better 
when you're going to challenge a

583
00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:05,440
monetary system. 
So everything disruptive is 

584
00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:08,480
always going to be order of 
magnitude better to get hold, 

585
00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:12,480
and everything disrupted will 
always be attacked by the people

586
00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:15,560
who have a vested interest in 
making sure that they are not 

587
00:32:15,560 --> 00:32:19,760
displaced. 
Yeah, this is what Jeff Booth 

588
00:32:20,360 --> 00:32:23,760
describes in a really great post
of him. 

589
00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:25,440
It's, I think it's called the 
Great Game. 

590
00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:28,360
And he talks exactly about this,
right? 

591
00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:32,160
Because you're fighting a 
monopoly that is already, you 

592
00:32:32,160 --> 00:32:36,080
know, intertwined with systems 
and everyday life and and and 

593
00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:38,760
all these things. 
So you have to not only be 

594
00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:43,360
better, but also be able to show
how you're how you're better and

595
00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:47,360
also keep continuing doing that 
right. 

596
00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:50,160
Like just being there, like 
saying, OK, a Bitcoin is 

597
00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:53,160
inevitable. 
That is not going to work. 

598
00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:55,840
That's also, by the way, what I 
love about your work, that 

599
00:32:55,840 --> 00:32:58,080
you're just relentless and you 
just keep going. 

600
00:32:58,080 --> 00:33:01,760
So yeah, I think that's very 
admirable. 

601
00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:06,440
But what what is like a personal
belief that made you not get 

602
00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:08,280
Bitcoin? 
Then when you encountered it, 

603
00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:10,280
what was? 
What was your thing? 

604
00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:14,080
It was. 
It was interesting. 

605
00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:19,680
I made a mistake. 
So back in 2000, and it was 

606
00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:22,120
actually my wife who got it. 
I didn't want to. 

607
00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:24,680
So I first heard about it in, 
well, 2014. 

608
00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:26,840
I thought that's never going to 
change anything. 

609
00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:30,240
And even it does, Money is not 
that meaningful. 

610
00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:32,840
We money is just money. 
It's just a method of 

611
00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:35,400
transacting. 
It's not fundamental to how 

612
00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:37,640
society operates. 
So I dismissed it. 

613
00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:42,040
And then I heard about it again 
in 2016 when a friend of mine, 

614
00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:45,200
Willy Woo, was talking about it 
and he's like, Oh no, you should

615
00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:46,400
get some Bitcoin. 
It's really good. 

616
00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:49,080
And he'd started to look into it
deeply at that stage, and I 

617
00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:50,360
hadn't. 
And I was. 

618
00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:51,920
And he talked to me a little bit
about it. 

619
00:33:51,920 --> 00:33:55,800
I just. 
I couldn't get overly excited. 

620
00:33:55,800 --> 00:33:58,720
I understood why money was 
broken cuz I'd gone through that

621
00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:02,120
learning to some extent during 
the global financial crisis. 

622
00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:03,560
But I thought gold was the 
solution. 

623
00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:07,240
So I didn't see there was a need
for another solution other than 

624
00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:13,639
gold as a store of value. 
And then I said, well, as an 

625
00:34:13,639 --> 00:34:17,040
investment I should invest in 
things which I know and which 

626
00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:19,320
I'm comfortable about. 
And that's technology companies.

627
00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:21,639
So I'm gonna keep on investing 
in technology companies cuz I 

628
00:34:21,639 --> 00:34:23,600
don't know about Bitcoin. 
And for me to know about it, 

629
00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:27,280
it's gonna take too much time, 
which is true. 

630
00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:29,600
It does take time to get to know
about Bitcoin. 

631
00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:33,040
And in order to invest in, you 
should take that time, 

632
00:34:33,679 --> 00:34:36,560
absolutely. 
But I just wasn't prepared to 

633
00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:40,159
invest that time. 
So you could say it was a 

634
00:34:40,159 --> 00:34:42,840
mistake or you could say it just
wasn't the right time. 

635
00:34:42,920 --> 00:34:46,120
But anyway, I I missed that 
because of my wife's insistence.

636
00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:51,480
We got a small amount at that 
time and and held that for for 

637
00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:53,199
many years. 
And then it wasn't till about 

638
00:34:53,199 --> 00:34:57,480
2020 that again another 
conversation Willie said, look, 

639
00:34:57,480 --> 00:34:59,800
I really think you should look 
at this. 

640
00:34:59,800 --> 00:35:02,560
And by that stage I missed 
everything that happened in 

641
00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:04,960
2016. 
So I was like, yeah, maybe 

642
00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:06,400
you're right. 
Maybe I should learn from that 

643
00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:08,280
mistake of not listening to you 
the first time. 

644
00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:09,920
So let me look at a little bit 
more. 

645
00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:12,920
And I did. 
And I thought, OK, this is, this

646
00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:16,000
has got some legs. 
This is worth a slightly larger 

647
00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:19,600
allocation. 
And then I started to hear all 

648
00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:23,240
the environmental stories in 
about 2021. 

649
00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:25,920
I started quite concerned 
because I was hearing the Elon 

650
00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:30,520
Musk's pulling out and I was 
hearing that China were banning 

651
00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:34,600
it because of environmental 
concerns and at that stage I was

652
00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:37,880
thinking I might have to sell my
Bitcoin. 

653
00:35:37,880 --> 00:35:40,840
That was actually what came up 
in my mind cuz it already what 

654
00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:43,120
had happened in the global 
financial crisis. 

655
00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:47,800
I'd bought gold and then I saw a
documentary on gold about how it

656
00:35:48,280 --> 00:35:52,320
resulted in cyanide poisoning of
indigenous rivers in the Amazon 

657
00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:57,280
ring forest and all sorts of 
incredibly toxic things that it 

658
00:35:57,280 --> 00:36:01,400
does to the environment. 
And I just thought, I can't hold

659
00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:03,320
this asset anymore for 
environmental reasons. 

660
00:36:03,320 --> 00:36:08,080
I sold and then I was like, oh 
man, do I have to go and sell 

661
00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:10,840
this asset too. 
Because this asset is also bad 

662
00:36:10,840 --> 00:36:12,880
for the environment. 
And. 

663
00:36:13,120 --> 00:36:19,320
And I thought I kind of saw a 
couple of videos 1 by Andreas 

664
00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:22,840
Antonopoulos which was saying 
that it could green the grid. 

665
00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:25,840
And again, I wasn't convinced 
because there was no 

666
00:36:25,840 --> 00:36:29,640
quantification, but it did make 
me think, OK, he does raise a 

667
00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:33,800
good point, which is I should 
look at investigating whether 

668
00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:37,120
the positive externalities have 
some merits at some point. 

669
00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:40,120
I said I don't have bandwidth 
for doing that now, but it kind 

670
00:36:40,120 --> 00:36:42,600
of didn't make me pro Bitcoin. 
But it said, OK, stay of 

671
00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:46,000
execution, I won't sell it. 
And so then it's kind of neutral

672
00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:47,760
about it. 
It's like, OK, it's a it's a 

673
00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:51,760
good, good investment. 
I'm not so sure it's good for 

674
00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:55,000
the environment. 
I'm not completely sure it's bad

675
00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:58,080
for the environment either, but 
I'm somewhere in the middle. 

676
00:36:58,520 --> 00:37:03,680
And then it wasn't really till 
2022 that I thought, OK, I want 

677
00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:06,840
to figure this out for myself. 
And I was just fortunate that I 

678
00:37:06,840 --> 00:37:12,360
had a whole bunch of time And I 
said, well, I'm going to go down

679
00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:15,040
the rabbit hole. 
But it wasn't the sound money 

680
00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:18,480
rabbit hole, It was the is it 
good for the environment rabbit 

681
00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:21,120
hole, which is a different 
rabbit hole, but it leads you to

682
00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:25,480
some places which are very 
similar in terms of realizing 

683
00:37:25,480 --> 00:37:29,880
that a lot of institutions you 
might have trusted, you realize 

684
00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:32,640
aren't so trustworthy. 
That was one of my conclusions. 

685
00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:37,640
It taught me the value of really
questioning a lot, doing your 

686
00:37:37,640 --> 00:37:41,400
own research, finding people who
are real subject matter experts,

687
00:37:41,400 --> 00:37:45,320
not people who just told other 
people they were subject matter 

688
00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:47,520
experts. 
There were a lot of people 

689
00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:50,600
talking about Bitcoin who were 
called energy experts, but they 

690
00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:54,720
weren't because it's not enough 
to be a so-called energy expert.

691
00:37:54,720 --> 00:37:56,760
You need to understand grids, 
You need to understand demand 

692
00:37:56,760 --> 00:37:58,920
response, you need to understand
methane mitigation. 

693
00:37:59,360 --> 00:38:02,440
You can know generically about 
how energy works and know about 

694
00:38:02,440 --> 00:38:05,520
none of those three things. 
And even if you know about all 

695
00:38:05,520 --> 00:38:07,800
those three things, you've still
got to understand Bitcoin mining

696
00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:10,920
dynamics. 
You've still got to understand 

697
00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:18,080
how different renewable 
technologies and different 

698
00:38:18,080 --> 00:38:21,120
fossil fuel technologies 
interact with them, and so 

699
00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:23,120
there's a lot of knowledge 
you're intersecting. 

700
00:38:23,120 --> 00:38:25,960
So it's more there's no course 
you can do in this stuff. 

701
00:38:26,440 --> 00:38:29,840
It's it's a role of it's as much
synthesis of information as it 

702
00:38:29,840 --> 00:38:32,840
is analysis of information. 
And if all you can do is 

703
00:38:33,040 --> 00:38:37,320
analysis of information, you 
analyze a single thread. 

704
00:38:37,640 --> 00:38:44,320
So you might analyze, for 
example, Bitcoin's energy 

705
00:38:44,320 --> 00:38:47,600
consumption, and then based on 
that single lane, you'll make 

706
00:38:47,600 --> 00:38:49,600
some conclusions, and the 
conclusions will be wrong. 

707
00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:52,760
Or you might analyze its 
emissions. 

708
00:38:53,560 --> 00:38:55,600
But then again, the conclusions 
will be wrong because you 

709
00:38:55,600 --> 00:38:59,600
haven't factored in trend lines,
you haven't factored in positive

710
00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:03,000
externalities, and you haven't 
factored in questioning the 

711
00:39:03,000 --> 00:39:08,800
underlying data set, and you 
haven't truly understood the 

712
00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:13,800
complex interplay between 
Bitcoin and grids or Bitcoin and

713
00:39:13,800 --> 00:39:16,400
reducing methane emissions. 
Yeah. 

714
00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:20,600
So it's not a simple. 
Fact it's interesting that you 

715
00:39:20,600 --> 00:39:24,520
mentioned that you realized that
not everything you thought was 

716
00:39:24,520 --> 00:39:26,680
true. 
It's also like a common theme. 

717
00:39:26,680 --> 00:39:28,920
Like what? 
What are some of those things? 

718
00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:31,200
Like what's the main thing that 
that you realized? 

719
00:39:31,680 --> 00:39:36,800
I I realized I knew that you 
should treat what you read in 

720
00:39:36,800 --> 00:39:39,200
the newspapers with a grain of 
salt, but I never realized 

721
00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:43,880
honestly just how bad it was. 
I I had. 

722
00:39:43,880 --> 00:39:46,040
I was like, it was a real wow 
moment. 

723
00:39:46,720 --> 00:39:49,360
The the degree to which things 
would get like, I'll give you an

724
00:39:49,360 --> 00:39:52,800
example, the the recent 
publication which went in the 

725
00:39:52,800 --> 00:39:57,400
BBC, which was an institution I 
used to trust a lot, The 

726
00:39:57,400 --> 00:40:03,920
independent New York Times, 
Verge Magazine, Fast Company and

727
00:40:04,280 --> 00:40:08,080
a magazine that I read a lot 
right for 20 years, had a lot of

728
00:40:08,080 --> 00:40:13,160
respect for all uncritically 
publishing. 

729
00:40:13,720 --> 00:40:17,720
An academic commentary based on 
some metrics which are debunked 

730
00:40:18,240 --> 00:40:24,800
in 2018. 
Interestingly by Cambridge and 

731
00:40:26,240 --> 00:40:28,800
getting headlines wrong. 
Not understanding the difference

732
00:40:29,480 --> 00:40:33,320
between a Bitcoin transaction 
and a Bitcoin payment. 

733
00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:37,600
Not understanding that a Bitcoin
transaction can contain 10 

734
00:40:37,600 --> 00:40:42,680
billion payments, so basic 
emissions in Bitcoin knowledge. 

735
00:40:42,680 --> 00:40:47,680
And I was like, this is crazy. 
And there's this strange 

736
00:40:47,680 --> 00:40:53,360
convention where it's deemed 
that in order to comment or be a

737
00:40:53,360 --> 00:40:58,400
journalist on Bitcoin, you have 
to hold no Bitcoin, Which is 

738
00:40:58,400 --> 00:41:01,440
crazy now, as if somehow by 
holding the asset somehow 

739
00:41:01,440 --> 00:41:04,920
sullies you and makes you ipso 
facto self interested. 

740
00:41:05,520 --> 00:41:07,800
But then they should do that on 
the other side as well, right, 

741
00:41:07,800 --> 00:41:10,040
Like Okay if you don't, but 
currency? 

742
00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:13,600
Yeah. 
Yeah, like bank account, yeah. 

743
00:41:13,640 --> 00:41:17,120
And what are you talking? 
About Yeah, you have to use, you

744
00:41:17,120 --> 00:41:20,560
have to party, you have to stick
some stones and shells to trade.

745
00:41:20,600 --> 00:41:22,600
No. 
So you are using something. 

746
00:41:22,600 --> 00:41:24,120
So you need exposure to 
everything. 

747
00:41:24,480 --> 00:41:27,560
But how we understand things is 
we understand them by using 

748
00:41:27,560 --> 00:41:29,200
them. 
We understand assets by using 

749
00:41:29,640 --> 00:41:31,000
them. 
If you prevent your journalists 

750
00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:34,480
from using the asset they're 
writing about, yeah, it's as if 

751
00:41:34,600 --> 00:41:39,280
saying I'm OK. 
I'm not going to ever go to a 

752
00:41:39,280 --> 00:41:42,400
doctor in my life because I 
understand how the incentives 

753
00:41:42,400 --> 00:41:44,000
work. 
And I understand when a doctor 

754
00:41:44,280 --> 00:41:46,880
prescribes me something, he or 
she will get a cut of that 

755
00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:48,440
prescription. 
OK. 

756
00:41:48,440 --> 00:41:51,960
So they have an inbuilt 
financial incentive to prescribe

757
00:41:51,960 --> 00:41:55,680
me something to tell me that I'm
sick and not to get me well now.

758
00:41:56,320 --> 00:41:58,640
OK, it's good to understand the 
incentive structure. 

759
00:41:58,640 --> 00:42:00,320
It's good to understand that as 
a risk. 

760
00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:03,640
But the conclusion that I should
never go to the doctor is 

761
00:42:03,640 --> 00:42:07,120
dangerous. 
And so I might say, well, I'm 

762
00:42:07,120 --> 00:42:09,240
not going to go to a doctor. 
I'm only going to go to physios 

763
00:42:09,240 --> 00:42:10,520
because they don't write 
prescriptions. 

764
00:42:10,520 --> 00:42:13,480
So I know I can trust them. 
That'd be crazy. 

765
00:42:13,480 --> 00:42:14,800
Or. 
Or I'm not going to go to a 

766
00:42:14,800 --> 00:42:17,600
dentist because a dentist has a 
vested interest in putting 

767
00:42:17,920 --> 00:42:20,800
amalgams into my teeth, which he
or she gets paid for. 

768
00:42:21,000 --> 00:42:23,000
So I'm not going to do that. 
What I'll do is I'll go to an 

769
00:42:23,000 --> 00:42:25,760
osteopath because after all, the
tooth, just a bone. 

770
00:42:26,080 --> 00:42:28,200
So I got an osteopath because 
they don't put amalgams in my 

771
00:42:28,200 --> 00:42:29,920
mouth and they'll give me a good
professional opinion. 

772
00:42:30,520 --> 00:42:33,480
Clearly that would be ludicrous.
But we do the same thing when it

773
00:42:33,480 --> 00:42:35,480
comes to the so-called energy 
experts. 

774
00:42:35,880 --> 00:42:38,720
We don't go to people who 
understand Bitcoin, We don't go 

775
00:42:38,720 --> 00:42:41,480
to people who understand Bitcoin
mining because they're deemed to

776
00:42:41,480 --> 00:42:44,440
have a vested interest. 
And so then we go to these 

777
00:42:44,440 --> 00:42:49,280
people who are generalists in 
the field of energy, don't 

778
00:42:49,280 --> 00:42:54,440
understand grids deeply, don't 
have not done deep dives into 

779
00:42:54,440 --> 00:42:59,640
demand response, have certainly 
not understood or even used 

780
00:42:59,640 --> 00:43:03,040
Bitcoin, and certainly do not 
have a good understanding of 

781
00:43:03,040 --> 00:43:06,760
Bitcoin mining. 
And we asked them to comment on 

782
00:43:06,760 --> 00:43:10,640
Bitcoin mining's impact on the 
environment and on grids, and we

783
00:43:10,640 --> 00:43:14,160
expect to get great results, 
Crazy. 

784
00:43:14,840 --> 00:43:19,600
So it's led to me to distrust 
the ways that we make decisions,

785
00:43:20,120 --> 00:43:23,800
the ways that we validate 
whether someone has a worth of 

786
00:43:23,840 --> 00:43:25,280
an opinion we should listen to 
or not. 

787
00:43:26,520 --> 00:43:31,320
It's made me realize, and even 
some of these trusted 

788
00:43:31,320 --> 00:43:34,480
institutions as well, the 
methodologies, it when I was 

789
00:43:34,480 --> 00:43:37,320
looking at Cambridge's data I 
had to pinch myself again and 

790
00:43:37,320 --> 00:43:38,440
again. 
I'm like, no, that it's 

791
00:43:38,440 --> 00:43:39,560
Cambridge. 
Come on, that must be right. 

792
00:43:39,560 --> 00:43:41,040
You must be wrong. 
Don't get too big for your 

793
00:43:41,040 --> 00:43:42,360
boots. 
Again, the ego kicked in. 

794
00:43:42,360 --> 00:43:43,440
It's like, no, you must be 
wrong. 

795
00:43:43,440 --> 00:43:44,680
They must be right. 
They're Cambridge. 

796
00:43:45,440 --> 00:43:47,480
But I kept on hanging up and I 
said no, something's not 

797
00:43:47,520 --> 00:43:50,720
matching the the data is wrong, 
the data is wrong. 

798
00:43:51,720 --> 00:43:55,680
And I was lucky that I had a 
community of other people 

799
00:43:55,680 --> 00:43:58,080
understood Bitcoin and energy 
who really supported me. 

800
00:43:58,080 --> 00:44:00,320
They said no, no, no, look here,
look, look here at this. 

801
00:44:00,320 --> 00:44:01,800
Look at the state. 
Look at this data point. 

802
00:44:01,800 --> 00:44:03,720
I said no, no, keep digging. 
You're on to something. 

803
00:44:03,960 --> 00:44:06,320
There is an anomaly here. 
They haven't considered this. 

804
00:44:06,560 --> 00:44:08,200
Look at these Bitcoin mining 
companies. 

805
00:44:08,200 --> 00:44:10,880
There is a disparity in the 
renewable energy use. 

806
00:44:11,840 --> 00:44:15,880
And also look at why people are 
going off grid in the 1st place.

807
00:44:16,120 --> 00:44:18,520
They're going off grid because 
they want cheap power. 

808
00:44:18,880 --> 00:44:23,320
Look at the graph of what's 
happened to power over the last 

809
00:44:23,320 --> 00:44:25,400
20 years. 
It used to be cheap power was 

810
00:44:25,400 --> 00:44:27,720
fossil fuel. 
Now it's all renewable. 

811
00:44:28,920 --> 00:44:32,400
So they said, well, doesn't it 
stand to reason that not because

812
00:44:32,400 --> 00:44:36,560
they're greenies, but simply 
because of economics that most 

813
00:44:36,560 --> 00:44:39,360
of these miners who are off grid
because they've gone for cheap 

814
00:44:39,360 --> 00:44:43,040
power, that was their number one
decision metric most of them 

815
00:44:43,040 --> 00:44:45,160
should be using. 
You would expect that would be 

816
00:44:45,160 --> 00:44:49,720
your hypothesis, right? 
Renewable or sustainable energy?

817
00:44:50,720 --> 00:44:54,240
Yeah, exactly. 
So that's a lot of questions, a 

818
00:44:54,480 --> 00:44:55,520
lot of stuff. 
Yeah. 

819
00:44:55,960 --> 00:44:58,320
Now it's so fascinating that 
that the thing, like once you 

820
00:44:58,320 --> 00:44:59,960
see it, you cannot Unsee it, 
right? 

821
00:44:59,960 --> 00:45:02,680
And it's this is just one 
subject, right, Bitcoin. 

822
00:45:02,680 --> 00:45:06,800
And as we previously talked 
about, if you end up at a point 

823
00:45:06,800 --> 00:45:10,360
where you think this is correct 
and you know you did all that 

824
00:45:10,360 --> 00:45:13,400
work and you know you were 
intellectually honest and you 

825
00:45:13,400 --> 00:45:17,120
challenged your ego and all 
these things, and then you just 

826
00:45:17,120 --> 00:45:22,040
see other people print nonsense,
then you know that if it's this 

827
00:45:22,040 --> 00:45:25,560
subject, what's happening with 
other subjects. 

828
00:45:25,800 --> 00:45:27,480
That's exactly. 
Just that's exactly what 

829
00:45:27,480 --> 00:45:28,400
happened. 
Correct. 

830
00:45:28,440 --> 00:45:28,920
Correct. 
Yeah. 

831
00:45:29,040 --> 00:45:31,840
I said that the only reason that
I know that this is nonsense is 

832
00:45:31,840 --> 00:45:35,200
I don't know the subject deeply.
This is the only subject that I 

833
00:45:35,200 --> 00:45:37,680
know deeply in the world. 
Exactly right. 

834
00:45:38,040 --> 00:45:39,440
I don't know any other subjects 
deeply. 

835
00:45:39,480 --> 00:45:41,520
This is the only one. 
This is the only subject of 

836
00:45:41,520 --> 00:45:43,720
research this deeply because you
simply don't have bandwidth. 

837
00:45:44,200 --> 00:45:47,600
But yes, by extension you think,
wow, there's probably other 

838
00:45:47,600 --> 00:45:50,400
people like me who've done a lot
of research within their 

839
00:45:50,400 --> 00:45:54,680
expertise who are reading these 
reports going what a load of 

840
00:45:54,680 --> 00:45:59,160
bullshit and but we don't know 
who they are if we're outside 

841
00:45:59,160 --> 00:46:02,160
that domain. 
Just in the same way that most 

842
00:46:02,160 --> 00:46:04,920
people outside the Bitcoin 
ecosystem will probably never 

843
00:46:04,920 --> 00:46:08,320
see this podcast, right? 
I mean, we'd like to see think 

844
00:46:08,320 --> 00:46:10,200
that a lot of people will that 
the reality. 

845
00:46:10,200 --> 00:46:13,560
Yeah, that'd really fun. 
That'd be amazing, but it's it's

846
00:46:13,760 --> 00:46:15,680
how do you do that? 
How do you cross pollinate 

847
00:46:15,680 --> 00:46:21,320
between one group of, you know, 
wacky autistic people and 

848
00:46:21,320 --> 00:46:23,720
another group who who've been 
crazy enough to go deep into the

849
00:46:23,720 --> 00:46:27,560
weeds and find that knowledge? 
Yeah, but they exist everywhere.

850
00:46:28,160 --> 00:46:30,040
But we're not interconnected 
enough. 

851
00:46:30,040 --> 00:46:32,760
It would be great if somehow we 
could connect all these people 

852
00:46:32,960 --> 00:46:36,000
who were crazy enough to go so 
deep and down the rabbit hole in

853
00:46:36,000 --> 00:46:37,720
their particular area, where 
it's Bitcoin, where it was 

854
00:46:37,720 --> 00:46:39,680
something else. 
Connect them all together, 

855
00:46:39,680 --> 00:46:43,720
because we probably stand quite 
a good chance of furthering 

856
00:46:43,840 --> 00:46:46,440
human knowledge if we did so. 
And it wouldn't be the 

857
00:46:46,440 --> 00:46:47,800
university. 
So it would be like a 

858
00:46:47,800 --> 00:46:50,280
peer-to-peer network of autistic
people. 

859
00:46:51,440 --> 00:46:53,880
Yeah, well it's actually 
interesting and and then we'll 

860
00:46:53,880 --> 00:46:58,000
move on. 
But on Twitter and you too by 

861
00:46:58,000 --> 00:47:00,280
the way, there was a there was a
thing this last week. 

862
00:47:00,880 --> 00:47:05,200
We in all these other subjects, 
I have not seen people who say I

863
00:47:05,200 --> 00:47:09,560
will debate anyone, anyone you 
know, whatever the subject is. 

864
00:47:09,560 --> 00:47:13,800
Anyone can debate me on what I'm
saying about whatever mandates, 

865
00:47:13,800 --> 00:47:16,240
right? 
Or certain technology or 

866
00:47:16,240 --> 00:47:18,080
electrification of cars or 
whatever. 

867
00:47:18,360 --> 00:47:21,880
In Bitcoin, everyone says it. 
Everyone says come debate me. 

868
00:47:21,920 --> 00:47:23,440
If you hate Bitcoin, come debate
me. 

869
00:47:23,440 --> 00:47:25,160
If you think it's bad for the 
environment, come debate me. 

870
00:47:25,160 --> 00:47:30,080
And no one is showing up, right.
And that that is also for me, 

871
00:47:30,080 --> 00:47:34,160
like a very big signal, right? 
Like if you shout from the 

872
00:47:34,160 --> 00:47:37,920
rooftops, come debate me. 
I know you're honest, like I 

873
00:47:37,920 --> 00:47:40,920
know you did it right. 
Like they saw the YouTube. 

874
00:47:42,040 --> 00:47:45,000
Video between Alex de Vries and 
the Norden They saw what 

875
00:47:45,000 --> 00:47:47,240
happens. 
Yes, when the bitcoiner is given

876
00:47:47,240 --> 00:47:52,160
the right of reply, it's brutal.
Yeah, that's it. 

877
00:47:52,360 --> 00:47:54,920
But that's it, right? 
And I think for people listening

878
00:47:54,920 --> 00:47:57,240
who maybe are still on the fence
about this Bitcoin interesting 

879
00:47:57,240 --> 00:48:01,040
or something, like, I use this 
as a signal for myself, right? 

880
00:48:01,040 --> 00:48:04,240
Where it's more like the social 
behavior you see, where it's 

881
00:48:04,240 --> 00:48:07,640
like, OK, so someone is 
intellectually honest and the 

882
00:48:07,640 --> 00:48:10,360
other one is just emotional, 
right. 

883
00:48:11,160 --> 00:48:16,600
Well then you already know who 
who clearly did more more work 

884
00:48:16,600 --> 00:48:19,160
and and it should be signal for 
you to also learn more about you

885
00:48:19,160 --> 00:48:21,680
know, whatever the subject is in
this case Bitcoin. 

886
00:48:22,360 --> 00:48:24,320
I want to ask you two hopefully 
short questions. 

887
00:48:24,320 --> 00:48:25,920
Let's see. 
But before we jump into the 

888
00:48:25,920 --> 00:48:29,240
book, I I just wanted to test 
now that we are talking like, I 

889
00:48:29,240 --> 00:48:35,080
have a case in my head where I 
think that for renewable 

890
00:48:35,080 --> 00:48:38,520
investments there is a case to 
be made that you can have more 

891
00:48:38,520 --> 00:48:44,160
than 100% ROI, right? 
Like just a simple explainer, 

892
00:48:44,160 --> 00:48:47,680
like there's a lot of wind 
windmill parks in my country. 

893
00:48:48,160 --> 00:48:52,040
A lot of them are not turning 
even when the wind blows, right?

894
00:48:52,040 --> 00:48:54,640
Because the grid cannot take 
that electricity. 

895
00:48:55,520 --> 00:48:58,600
You can argue that if you 
invested in the hardware and 

896
00:48:58,600 --> 00:49:01,320
it's not turning, you're losing 
money, right? 

897
00:49:01,320 --> 00:49:05,440
So your goal should be to have 
them turn whenever the wind 

898
00:49:05,440 --> 00:49:09,040
blows, even when the grid. 
You know, even when the demand 

899
00:49:09,040 --> 00:49:12,040
from from the consumers is not 
there, right? 

900
00:49:12,040 --> 00:49:16,160
The only thing you can make that
work is when you add Bitcoin 

901
00:49:16,160 --> 00:49:19,640
miners to that, right? 
So then you will have 100% ROI 

902
00:49:19,640 --> 00:49:24,760
on the usage of the hardware. 
Then you have 100% ROI on the 

903
00:49:24,760 --> 00:49:28,440
usage or consumption of the 
energy that's created. 

904
00:49:29,000 --> 00:49:33,240
And then you have more than 100%
return because what you use that

905
00:49:33,240 --> 00:49:36,040
energy for Bitcoin, right. 
So, so this is of course what 

906
00:49:36,040 --> 00:49:38,760
miners do. 
You can sell that or hold that 

907
00:49:38,880 --> 00:49:42,480
for it to accrue value. 
I totally don't like, does that 

908
00:49:42,560 --> 00:49:45,600
make sense to you? 
And and second question, I 

909
00:49:45,600 --> 00:49:48,280
totally don't understand why 
governments are not doing this 

910
00:49:48,280 --> 00:49:49,920
like it. 
It makes no sense to me. 

911
00:49:49,920 --> 00:49:53,080
It feels like you're wasting 
money investing in this hardware

912
00:49:53,080 --> 00:50:02,440
and then not utilizing it fully.
Governments get voted out when 

913
00:50:02,440 --> 00:50:08,120
they do things which people 
believe are bad for the 

914
00:50:08,120 --> 00:50:10,560
environment. 
So if enough and doesn't even 

915
00:50:10,560 --> 00:50:12,600
have to be bad for the 
environment, but if they fear 

916
00:50:12,720 --> 00:50:16,160
that environmental NGOs will 
tell them that they're doing 

917
00:50:16,160 --> 00:50:17,800
something bad for the 
environment, there's 

918
00:50:17,800 --> 00:50:19,960
environmental NGOs have a lot of
lobbying power. 

919
00:50:21,400 --> 00:50:24,320
Yeah. 
And so one of the communities 

920
00:50:24,320 --> 00:50:27,720
that politicians are most scared
of is environmental NGOs. 

921
00:50:29,080 --> 00:50:34,000
And so even if they come to 
believe that Bitcoin is good for

922
00:50:34,000 --> 00:50:38,880
the environment, the fear of 
being labeled, particularly in 

923
00:50:38,880 --> 00:50:43,440
Europe, as someone who is doing 
something which is counter to 

924
00:50:43,440 --> 00:50:47,400
climate change is immense. 
And so they'll avoid it, the 

925
00:50:47,400 --> 00:50:49,280
course of brand reputational 
damage. 

926
00:50:50,520 --> 00:50:53,720
So you've got that to fact with 
in terms of your question around

927
00:50:53,720 --> 00:50:56,840
is it feasible to get this sort 
of ROI, absolutely it is. 

928
00:50:56,840 --> 00:51:00,200
And we already know from that 
Cornell Cornell University study

929
00:51:00,680 --> 00:51:06,040
that using Bitcoin mining in 
concert with either solar or 

930
00:51:06,040 --> 00:51:08,160
wind operations will make them 
more profitable. 

931
00:51:08,880 --> 00:51:11,840
Yeah, exactly. 
There is a local Bitcoin mining 

932
00:51:11,840 --> 00:51:14,920
company that uses hydro who's 
been doing some analysis that 

933
00:51:14,920 --> 00:51:18,800
suggested that it makes some 50%
more profitable, which is huge. 

934
00:51:19,640 --> 00:51:26,120
And that all gets reinvested 
into, guess what, more solar or 

935
00:51:26,120 --> 00:51:29,320
more wind. 
Just like all businesses, they 

936
00:51:29,320 --> 00:51:33,120
want to reinvest their property,
their profits into their 

937
00:51:33,120 --> 00:51:34,960
business. 
So that means more wind 

938
00:51:34,960 --> 00:51:36,600
generation, more solar 
generation. 

939
00:51:38,000 --> 00:51:41,040
So not ludicrous at all, and not
only is it not ludicrous, but 

940
00:51:41,040 --> 00:51:46,120
now there's some pretty 
reputable peer reviewed research

941
00:51:46,120 --> 00:51:50,080
that backs up that this is 
absolutely possible and you're 

942
00:51:50,080 --> 00:51:53,640
going to see that get more and 
more quantified over the next 

943
00:51:53,640 --> 00:51:56,040
two years. 
So we'll be able to look at it 

944
00:51:56,040 --> 00:51:59,000
and we will say if it's a wind 
farm of this magnitude and you 

945
00:51:59,000 --> 00:52:02,320
have this much Bitcoin mining, 
you can expect this much more 

946
00:52:02,320 --> 00:52:03,880
profitable in these 
circumstances. 

947
00:52:03,880 --> 00:52:05,480
It's going to get much more 
nuanced. 

948
00:52:06,680 --> 00:52:09,600
So that's quite exciting because
not only does that change the 

949
00:52:09,600 --> 00:52:13,320
narrative, but but then it 
becomes harder for politicians 

950
00:52:13,320 --> 00:52:18,600
to be fearful because as data is
your best weapon against FUD, 

951
00:52:19,920 --> 00:52:24,960
you fight FUD with fact. 
And so the more fact that comes 

952
00:52:24,960 --> 00:52:27,360
in, the more the FUD starts to 
disappear. 

953
00:52:29,400 --> 00:52:35,240
Yeah, it's amazing how also in 
this sector, Bitcoin forces 

954
00:52:35,240 --> 00:52:40,320
transparency, right? 
To back up whatever your claim 

955
00:52:40,320 --> 00:52:43,040
is. 
So you when you claim that there

956
00:52:43,040 --> 00:52:48,120
is a certain incentive like, you
know, I just did, you say we're 

957
00:52:48,120 --> 00:52:50,880
gonna have the data that can 
actually back that up, right? 

958
00:52:50,920 --> 00:52:54,360
And there's not a lot of 
technologies where that is 

959
00:52:54,360 --> 00:52:56,680
actually done. 
So transparent, I'd say. 

960
00:52:56,680 --> 00:52:59,440
So, yeah, for me that's 
fascinating that Bitcoin, yeah, 

961
00:52:59,440 --> 00:53:01,760
forces you to do that. 
Like you cannot have empty 

962
00:53:01,760 --> 00:53:04,280
claims. 
You have to do and show the work

963
00:53:04,560 --> 00:53:07,000
basically. 
Well, again, it's here to be 10 

964
00:53:07,040 --> 00:53:09,640
* 100 times better. 
So because of all the FUD and 

965
00:53:09,640 --> 00:53:11,280
because you're not the 
incumbent, and because 

966
00:53:11,280 --> 00:53:14,560
everyone's telling it's spoiling
the oceans, you have to be so 

967
00:53:14,560 --> 00:53:16,760
much better at measuring. 
You have to be so much more 

968
00:53:17,320 --> 00:53:20,000
measurably better. 
You have the order of magnitude 

969
00:53:20,000 --> 00:53:22,280
better. 
Your research has to be better. 

970
00:53:22,280 --> 00:53:26,080
Your your exception handling has
to be better. 

971
00:53:26,520 --> 00:53:28,720
Your method of articulating it 
has to be better. 

972
00:53:28,720 --> 00:53:31,960
Everything has to be better. 
So the positive about all this 

973
00:53:31,960 --> 00:53:36,320
fun is it forces people to be 
really good at articulating the 

974
00:53:36,320 --> 00:53:40,080
story of working out the the 
most environmentally beneficial 

975
00:53:40,080 --> 00:53:43,160
outcomes and researching those 
outcomes and then chasing them 

976
00:53:43,160 --> 00:53:46,600
as well. 
So fun has actually accelerated 

977
00:53:47,240 --> 00:53:51,360
the environmental narrative of 
Bitcoin. 

978
00:53:53,680 --> 00:53:55,480
Love it. 
That's great. 

979
00:53:55,760 --> 00:53:58,200
Yeah, but. 
We wouldn't have gone look, it 

980
00:53:58,240 --> 00:54:01,560
wouldn't have gone as fast if it
hadn't been fought so strongly 

981
00:54:01,560 --> 00:54:03,120
and there hadn't been so many 
false narratives. 

982
00:54:03,960 --> 00:54:05,440
Yeah, yeah. 
No, it's amazing. 

983
00:54:05,520 --> 00:54:09,840
It's it's exactly, I think, what
the ethos is of Bitcoin or what 

984
00:54:09,840 --> 00:54:13,320
Bitcoin stands for. 
Like, OK, try me and I will show

985
00:54:13,320 --> 00:54:16,440
you like I can show you. 
Yeah, I find it beautiful. 

986
00:54:17,440 --> 00:54:19,080
One other small thing before we 
go to the book. 

987
00:54:19,120 --> 00:54:23,680
Are you familiar with the 
software book from Jason Lowry? 

988
00:54:24,120 --> 00:54:26,440
I have a thesis. 
I know a little bit about it. 

989
00:54:26,440 --> 00:54:27,880
I don't know the core thesis. 
Yes. 

990
00:54:28,680 --> 00:54:30,880
OK, yeah, so just one thing to 
share. 

991
00:54:30,880 --> 00:54:35,600
Like I once tweeted to Jason, I 
said, if I understand correctly,

992
00:54:35,600 --> 00:54:39,320
you say power projection will 
always be here, right? 

993
00:54:39,320 --> 00:54:41,600
So countries will fight over 
resources. 

994
00:54:41,600 --> 00:54:43,800
They will project their power 
over each other. 

995
00:54:43,800 --> 00:54:46,800
And you say, you know, his case 
is that that will be done 

996
00:54:46,800 --> 00:54:50,040
through hash wars, computing 
power wars, right. 

997
00:54:50,040 --> 00:54:52,600
So whoever has the most 
computing power and can protect 

998
00:54:52,600 --> 00:54:55,440
that through Bitcoin, that's his
case, right? 

999
00:54:55,800 --> 00:54:59,280
You can, yeah. 
Keep your power in the world and

1000
00:54:59,280 --> 00:55:01,120
project your power over others, 
right. 

1001
00:55:01,120 --> 00:55:05,800
So I tweeted him, OK, so if this
is the case and the people who 

1002
00:55:05,800 --> 00:55:09,880
adopt this hash power are 
incentivized, as you just 

1003
00:55:09,880 --> 00:55:13,920
mentioned, right, to look for 
the most sustainable ways or 

1004
00:55:13,920 --> 00:55:17,360
cheapest ways to create this 
power. 

1005
00:55:17,520 --> 00:55:22,080
Basically, are we going to, 
like, save the world by waging 

1006
00:55:22,280 --> 00:55:23,160
war? 
Right. 

1007
00:55:23,160 --> 00:55:26,320
Is it going to be a greener 
world by saving war, Right. 

1008
00:55:26,320 --> 00:55:28,800
We're accepting that we will 
always have this war. 

1009
00:55:30,360 --> 00:55:33,920
But the other side of that is 
that we make the planet greener.

1010
00:55:33,920 --> 00:55:36,320
And he said yes. 
And so I wanted to check with 

1011
00:55:36,440 --> 00:55:39,040
you what you think of that. 
Yeah, I agree. 

1012
00:55:39,760 --> 00:55:43,080
It makes total sense because 
well, The only exception to that

1013
00:55:43,080 --> 00:55:48,080
will be, I would see it a little
differently. 

1014
00:55:48,080 --> 00:55:51,640
There is one exception and that 
is if you're in a country where 

1015
00:55:51,640 --> 00:55:54,800
your cheapest, I think it's more
governed by what's the cheapest 

1016
00:55:54,800 --> 00:55:56,720
source of electricity rather 
than what's the most 

1017
00:55:56,720 --> 00:55:59,800
sustainable. 
It's just by historical 

1018
00:55:59,800 --> 00:56:01,480
accident. 
Oh, that's what I mean. 

1019
00:56:01,480 --> 00:56:02,960
Yeah. 
You have to invest in the. 

1020
00:56:03,240 --> 00:56:05,400
Yeah, Yeah. 
We we are very fortunate that 

1021
00:56:05,400 --> 00:56:07,640
Bitcoin has come at a time in 
history which has happened to 

1022
00:56:07,640 --> 00:56:10,320
coincide where the cheapest 
source is renewable. 

1023
00:56:10,320 --> 00:56:12,320
Bitcoin had come 20 years 
earlier, it'd be a very 

1024
00:56:12,320 --> 00:56:15,440
different story because the 
cheapest source would be coal. 

1025
00:56:17,440 --> 00:56:20,760
So there's there's been some 
luck here uncategorically. 

1026
00:56:21,960 --> 00:56:24,400
Now in most of the world, we're 
fortunate that the cheapest 

1027
00:56:24,400 --> 00:56:27,680
source will be sustainable. 
However, there'll be some 

1028
00:56:27,680 --> 00:56:30,400
countries where it's not. 
In Russia it's going to be 

1029
00:56:30,400 --> 00:56:33,520
natural gas, In some other parts
of the world it'll be something 

1030
00:56:33,520 --> 00:56:38,680
else. 
So it's likely that you'll see, 

1031
00:56:38,800 --> 00:56:41,280
I would say, a proliferation of 
mining in different countries, a

1032
00:56:41,280 --> 00:56:44,000
proliferation of people trying 
to secure hash rate, absolutely 

1033
00:56:44,000 --> 00:56:48,160
the cheapest cost possible. 
Will that lead everyone to be 

1034
00:56:48,160 --> 00:56:50,440
green? 
I I think it'll be more that 

1035
00:56:50,440 --> 00:56:53,440
it'll lead everyone to try and 
be cheap and to find new ways to

1036
00:56:53,440 --> 00:56:55,480
utilize stranded and wasted 
energy. 

1037
00:56:56,120 --> 00:56:58,880
And we're just lucky that that 
happens in most cases to be 

1038
00:56:58,880 --> 00:57:03,800
places like wind farms built in 
the wrong place or not near a 

1039
00:57:03,800 --> 00:57:06,960
major population center or with 
a grid that doesn't have the 

1040
00:57:06,960 --> 00:57:08,880
capacity to take all that 
surplus wind power. 

1041
00:57:08,880 --> 00:57:13,320
When you get 92 hours 
concurrently of Gale force winds

1042
00:57:13,320 --> 00:57:16,480
in North Germany and all your 
power genre power users are in 

1043
00:57:16,480 --> 00:57:18,160
South Germany and the grid can't
take it. 

1044
00:57:18,560 --> 00:57:23,440
Or you have some landfills which
just emitting methane freely 

1045
00:57:23,440 --> 00:57:26,120
into the air and you can't 
utilize that power and you can't

1046
00:57:26,120 --> 00:57:30,240
connect them to the grid, that 
is where people will compete. 

1047
00:57:30,560 --> 00:57:33,840
Stranded energy, Wasted energy, 
Cheap energy. 

1048
00:57:33,840 --> 00:57:35,440
Energy which no one else can 
use. 

1049
00:57:36,280 --> 00:57:38,520
Yeah. 
So it forces the innovation to 

1050
00:57:38,520 --> 00:57:40,600
actually forces innovation that 
energy, right? 

1051
00:57:40,840 --> 00:57:42,360
Yeah. 
Harvesting of wasted energy. 

1052
00:57:43,440 --> 00:57:44,760
All right. 
Well, thanks for answering. 

1053
00:57:44,760 --> 00:57:48,400
Like now that I was talking to 
you, I I really wanted to, you 

1054
00:57:48,400 --> 00:57:49,520
know, hear your thoughts on 
that. 

1055
00:57:49,840 --> 00:57:53,760
If we move to your book, it's 
called How to Change the World. 

1056
00:57:53,760 --> 00:57:58,360
With One pitch you lay out 
principles of a four step system

1057
00:57:58,600 --> 00:58:02,400
that you say anyone can apply 
to, you know, help, help 

1058
00:58:02,480 --> 00:58:05,560
Bitcoiners, Orange Bill or or at
least trigger others to to 

1059
00:58:05,560 --> 00:58:08,680
Orange Bill themselves. 
What can we walk through the 

1060
00:58:08,720 --> 00:58:10,560
framework like why is it so 
effective? 

1061
00:58:10,560 --> 00:58:16,800
Where did this come from? 
It it came from my obsession 

1062
00:58:16,800 --> 00:58:20,600
with synthesizing knowledge. 
And as we're talking about 

1063
00:58:20,600 --> 00:58:23,360
beforehand, if if you try 
analysis without synthesis, 

1064
00:58:23,360 --> 00:58:26,000
you're gonna, you're gonna miss 
some key things out. 

1065
00:58:26,680 --> 00:58:31,320
And so when it comes to 
expressing ideas, there were a 

1066
00:58:31,320 --> 00:58:35,040
lot of resources and books 
around about how to create a 

1067
00:58:35,040 --> 00:58:37,560
great message. 
But then you've also got to 

1068
00:58:37,560 --> 00:58:39,560
deliver that message. 
No one wants to see a great 

1069
00:58:39,560 --> 00:58:42,120
script delivered by some lousy 
actors, so you've got to deliver

1070
00:58:42,120 --> 00:58:43,280
it. 
Hey, OK, Everyone gets that, OK?

1071
00:58:43,280 --> 00:58:45,560
It's got to got to be good. 
Message got to be well 

1072
00:58:45,560 --> 00:58:46,200
delivered. 
OK. 

1073
00:58:46,680 --> 00:58:49,080
But then there's another 
dimension, which is the tactics.

1074
00:58:49,600 --> 00:58:50,920
You've got to be tactically 
smart. 

1075
00:58:51,720 --> 00:58:54,960
If you have the wrong strategy, 
it's like if you're talking to a

1076
00:58:54,960 --> 00:58:57,760
community and you don't 
understand what they care about 

1077
00:58:57,760 --> 00:59:00,240
most, what their values are. 
You can have a wonderful 

1078
00:59:00,240 --> 00:59:03,440
message, beautifully 
articulated, and it's off 

1079
00:59:03,440 --> 00:59:05,360
target. 
It's like trying to hit a target

1080
00:59:06,040 --> 00:59:08,120
with an arrow when you're 
blindfolded. 

1081
00:59:09,040 --> 00:59:12,440
And so being tactically smart is
equivalent of taking that 

1082
00:59:12,440 --> 00:59:16,200
blindfold off and knowing your 
audience, to the extent that 

1083
00:59:16,200 --> 00:59:20,240
before you even open your mouth,
you understand which are the 

1084
00:59:20,240 --> 00:59:24,400
right arrows to unleash the 
arrows of logic, The arrows of 

1085
00:59:26,840 --> 00:59:32,200
points, the arrows of 
inspirational messages, the 

1086
00:59:32,280 --> 00:59:37,480
arrows of understanding an issue
and speaking to it in a way 

1087
00:59:37,480 --> 00:59:41,160
which is likely to be heard. 
So that's a tactical dimension. 

1088
00:59:41,160 --> 00:59:43,840
The third dimension and the 4th 
dimension is more important than

1089
00:59:43,840 --> 00:59:47,480
any of those other three. 
It's the most subtle, but it's 

1090
00:59:47,480 --> 00:59:49,800
actually the most powerful. 
And that's the mindset you're in

1091
00:59:49,800 --> 00:59:53,560
before you open your mouth. 
And this is where a lot of 

1092
00:59:53,560 --> 00:59:56,120
people go wrong on Twitter, and 
it loops right back beautifully 

1093
00:59:56,120 --> 01:00:00,880
to how we started, which is OK. 
You've got wonderful tactics, 

1094
01:00:01,920 --> 01:00:05,040
you've got a great message. 
You deliver them beautifully, 

1095
01:00:05,560 --> 01:00:11,360
but at the point you come to say
it, what you're thinking is this

1096
01:00:11,360 --> 01:00:13,520
person is such an idiot, why 
don't they get it? 

1097
01:00:14,600 --> 01:00:17,400
I'm guilty of that, yeah. 
Yeah, me too. 

1098
01:00:18,280 --> 01:00:22,960
Me too. 
Then nothing You say will land 

1099
01:00:23,840 --> 01:00:25,960
and so agree. 
Again. 

1100
01:00:26,120 --> 01:00:28,640
This is where the ego gets in 
the way and undermines 

1101
01:00:28,640 --> 01:00:31,120
everything else. 
And it's the most subtle. 

1102
01:00:31,360 --> 01:00:34,080
And so, because it's the most 
subtle, often it's the most 

1103
01:00:34,080 --> 01:00:36,240
neglected. 
But as I say, it's also the most

1104
01:00:36,240 --> 01:00:38,560
powerful. 
And we know this, we know this 

1105
01:00:38,560 --> 01:00:40,680
intuitively, as you just said, 
because you've had that direct 

1106
01:00:40,680 --> 01:00:43,040
experience of when your mind 
sets off, everything's off 

1107
01:00:43,320 --> 01:00:45,760
because it affects your message,
it affects your delivery, it 

1108
01:00:45,760 --> 01:00:48,480
affects your patience, There's 
subtle changes in your body 

1109
01:00:48,480 --> 01:00:51,720
language and your expression. 
And people can read that because

1110
01:00:51,720 --> 01:00:53,200
people are good at reading 
people. 

1111
01:00:53,200 --> 01:00:55,360
And you get the feeling this 
person doesn't care about me. 

1112
01:00:55,360 --> 01:00:59,880
This person just cares about 
expressing their ideas this. 

1113
01:01:00,040 --> 01:01:05,360
Their perception because I 
cannot recognize my own ego, 

1114
01:01:05,480 --> 01:01:06,760
right? 
So they have the wrong 

1115
01:01:06,760 --> 01:01:10,280
perception of me. 
Totally the opposite of what I 

1116
01:01:10,280 --> 01:01:13,840
actually am trying to do. 
Hopefully help them see what I. 

1117
01:01:13,840 --> 01:01:14,400
See. 
Correct. 

1118
01:01:14,400 --> 01:01:16,440
Correct. 
So there's this, this process of

1119
01:01:16,440 --> 01:01:19,640
shedding that ego and saying, 
well, coming back to, well, what

1120
01:01:19,640 --> 01:01:22,160
is my intention here? 
What is my intention? 

1121
01:01:22,160 --> 01:01:25,160
Is my intention that I want to 
come out of this feeling, oh, 

1122
01:01:25,200 --> 01:01:26,760
that was a good intellectual 
fight. 

1123
01:01:27,920 --> 01:01:30,040
Beat him, I showed him I 
whatever. 

1124
01:01:30,040 --> 01:01:32,080
Is that my intention? 
I want to get one over the other

1125
01:01:32,080 --> 01:01:34,320
person, OK, that's one 
intention. 

1126
01:01:34,560 --> 01:01:36,640
Is my intention. 
I want to let off steam. 

1127
01:01:36,640 --> 01:01:39,200
Is my intention that I've. 
I want a free event. 

1128
01:01:39,480 --> 01:01:42,520
Is my intention that I want to 
look intellectually superior in 

1129
01:01:42,520 --> 01:01:46,200
front of my peers on Twitter? 
Is my intention that I want to 

1130
01:01:47,720 --> 01:01:52,200
indulge a previous habit of 
exercising no impulse control? 

1131
01:01:52,720 --> 01:01:54,200
So it's about getting honest 
with yourself. 

1132
01:01:54,200 --> 01:01:58,160
What is my intention here? 
Always my intention that I would

1133
01:01:58,160 --> 01:02:01,360
like to adopt the stand of 
speaking to another person the 

1134
01:02:01,360 --> 01:02:03,200
same way I would like to be 
spoken to. 

1135
01:02:04,080 --> 01:02:07,160
Oh, OK, well, that's gonna 
require a different sort of 

1136
01:02:07,160 --> 01:02:10,600
communication. 
So the mere process of asking 

1137
01:02:10,840 --> 01:02:13,360
what's my intention? 
And this is something I do 

1138
01:02:13,360 --> 01:02:18,760
repeatedly because as I say, my 
predilection for a long time has

1139
01:02:18,760 --> 01:02:20,920
been to get angry, to get 
exasperated. 

1140
01:02:21,600 --> 01:02:25,920
Why doesn't this person get it? 
And I think particularly the 

1141
01:02:25,920 --> 01:02:29,200
more you know about something, 
here's the irony, The more you 

1142
01:02:29,200 --> 01:02:35,080
know about something, the bigger
the risk that you come across as

1143
01:02:35,080 --> 01:02:40,120
a Dick head because you some of 
that exasperation and that 

1144
01:02:40,120 --> 01:02:42,760
frustration comes across in the 
way you express. 

1145
01:02:43,120 --> 01:02:45,640
And that's where you risk 
sounding superior. 

1146
01:02:46,080 --> 01:02:49,640
And that's where you risk losing
that humility that you realize 

1147
01:02:49,640 --> 01:02:52,240
you don't know everything. 
The system's constantly 

1148
01:02:52,240 --> 01:02:53,720
changing. 
Knowledge is changing. 

1149
01:02:53,720 --> 01:02:55,280
You have gaps in your 
understanding. 

1150
01:02:55,400 --> 01:02:56,920
Someone else might think of 
something. 

1151
01:02:57,080 --> 01:03:00,120
You might become the the future 
incumbent. 

1152
01:03:00,120 --> 01:03:02,600
And there's some other disruptor
who has some knowledge asymmetry

1153
01:03:02,600 --> 01:03:06,160
that you didn't have that caused
you to suddenly be the person 

1154
01:03:06,160 --> 01:03:07,720
you were criticizing one year 
ago. 

1155
01:03:08,560 --> 01:03:10,600
So. 
So that intellectual humility is

1156
01:03:10,600 --> 01:03:15,360
really important. 
And that process of remembering,

1157
01:03:16,080 --> 01:03:19,280
well, if I lose my humanity in 
the process and if I stop caring

1158
01:03:19,280 --> 01:03:22,040
about other humans, what have we
really gained? 

1159
01:03:22,040 --> 01:03:25,360
At the end of the day, didn't I 
say I came to Bitcoin because I 

1160
01:03:25,360 --> 01:03:27,120
believe it was for the people 
and it could. 

1161
01:03:27,560 --> 01:03:30,760
Yes, it's about sound money and 
yes, it's about through learning

1162
01:03:30,760 --> 01:03:33,320
about sound money. 
You learn about how societies 

1163
01:03:33,320 --> 01:03:35,520
are messed up and you want to 
improve societies of people. 

1164
01:03:36,200 --> 01:03:39,040
Well, you improve lives of 
people, one person at a time. 

1165
01:03:39,040 --> 01:03:41,600
You don't fight your way into 
peace. 

1166
01:03:41,600 --> 01:03:46,800
You don't aggression. 
You're you're way into love and 

1167
01:03:47,600 --> 01:03:50,880
and you don't lose control your 
way into self-control. 

1168
01:03:51,440 --> 01:03:55,120
So you you develop greater love,
greater compassion and greater 

1169
01:03:55,120 --> 01:03:59,760
self-control by practicing love,
compassion and self-control on a

1170
01:03:59,760 --> 01:04:03,640
regular basis. 
Yeah, so reminding yourself of 

1171
01:04:03,640 --> 01:04:05,240
those things makes a huge 
difference. 

1172
01:04:05,240 --> 01:04:07,720
And so my approach is always 
being being. 

1173
01:04:07,720 --> 01:04:10,640
I know a lot of people say, well
look, you get 10 times the the, 

1174
01:04:11,400 --> 01:04:14,320
the, the engagement on Twitter 
if you're negative or you're 

1175
01:04:14,320 --> 01:04:15,880
progressive than if you're 
respectful. 

1176
01:04:16,920 --> 01:04:18,720
I haven't found that to be the 
case. 

1177
01:04:19,880 --> 01:04:22,280
If you look at, there's this 
wonderful example today. 

1178
01:04:22,280 --> 01:04:25,680
OK, evidence points. 
So Elizabeth Warren, bless her 

1179
01:04:25,680 --> 01:04:29,480
heart, lovely tweet she wrote 
about how Bitcoin is great for 

1180
01:04:29,480 --> 01:04:30,800
money launderers. 
She's right. 

1181
01:04:30,800 --> 01:04:32,880
Bitcoin is used by money, money 
launderers. 

1182
01:04:32,880 --> 01:04:35,000
But again, that's a statistic 
out of context. 

1183
01:04:35,000 --> 01:04:36,960
It turns out it's actually used 
way more. 

1184
01:04:37,960 --> 01:04:40,320
The Fiat systems use ways more. 
Everyone understands it within 

1185
01:04:40,320 --> 01:04:47,080
the Bitcoin ecosystem. 
And Pierre Rochelle wrote to her

1186
01:04:47,360 --> 01:04:52,120
a beautiful tweet he has. 
Elizabeth Warren has 6.3 million

1187
01:04:52,120 --> 01:04:56,480
followers. 
Pierre has I think 46,000, so 

1188
01:04:56,960 --> 01:05:01,600
less than 1%. 
And he totally ratioed her with 

1189
01:05:01,600 --> 01:05:05,040
respect. 
He didn't diss her, He didn't 

1190
01:05:05,040 --> 01:05:08,520
say she was an idiot. 
He just pointed out that a one 

1191
01:05:08,520 --> 01:05:12,600
of her own colleagues was using 
Fiat for money laundering. 

1192
01:05:13,040 --> 01:05:15,320
And shouldn't you look closer to
home question mark very 

1193
01:05:15,320 --> 01:05:20,200
respectfully? 
So look you absolutely can. 

1194
01:05:21,120 --> 01:05:25,160
With respect, with dignity, 
without putting the other person

1195
01:05:25,160 --> 01:05:26,680
down, without calling him an 
idiot. 

1196
01:05:28,360 --> 01:05:30,560
I think you'll win more people 
over in the long term. 

1197
01:05:31,120 --> 01:05:33,760
It may feel better in the short 
term, it may give the ego more 

1198
01:05:33,760 --> 01:05:37,400
satisfaction in the short term. 
You may feel like I showed them,

1199
01:05:39,040 --> 01:05:43,480
but it's not going to win the 
respect of the masses, I don't 

1200
01:05:43,480 --> 01:05:47,640
believe. 
And it's also, more importantly,

1201
01:05:47,640 --> 01:05:49,080
it's not going to orange peel 
anyone. 

1202
01:05:50,640 --> 01:05:55,000
How many people have changed 
your minds when their mindset 

1203
01:05:55,000 --> 01:05:58,920
was one of frustration When when
you got this vibe that they 

1204
01:05:58,920 --> 01:06:01,280
thought you're an idiot? 
Yeah. 

1205
01:06:01,280 --> 01:06:04,480
When you felt that they felt 
they knew more than you and you 

1206
01:06:04,480 --> 01:06:07,320
were going to show them or that 
you were gonna dominate them or 

1207
01:06:07,320 --> 01:06:10,560
that you were going to your 
superior intellectual knowledge 

1208
01:06:10,560 --> 01:06:13,520
was going to win the day. 
And your mission was just to 

1209
01:06:13,520 --> 01:06:17,080
fill in the gaps and and their 
understanding so well, it 

1210
01:06:17,080 --> 01:06:19,920
doesn't work, does it. 
And when someone comes with that

1211
01:06:19,920 --> 01:06:22,440
approach, you can tell. 
So all that has to be put, 

1212
01:06:22,440 --> 01:06:24,280
whether it's true or not, has to
be put to one side. 

1213
01:06:24,280 --> 01:06:27,320
And getting back to these human 
basics of We're two humans. 

1214
01:06:27,680 --> 01:06:29,600
We're in a room. 
We're forming a connection. 

1215
01:06:30,080 --> 01:06:31,880
Let me understand how you see 
the world. 

1216
01:06:31,880 --> 01:06:34,160
Let me understand how I can 
serve you, how I can help you in

1217
01:06:34,160 --> 01:06:36,960
some way, and maybe I can't. 
And I have to be prepared for 

1218
01:06:36,960 --> 01:06:39,160
the eventuality. 
You might not be interested in 

1219
01:06:39,160 --> 01:06:40,520
what I have to say. 
And that's fine. 

1220
01:06:40,520 --> 01:06:43,840
In which case, I'll walk away. 
I won't waste my time on yours. 

1221
01:06:44,560 --> 01:06:46,520
Yeah. 
So those are the four 

1222
01:06:46,520 --> 01:06:49,400
components. 
So message, tactics, delivery 

1223
01:06:50,200 --> 01:06:52,560
and mindset. 
But mindset is most important. 

1224
01:06:53,080 --> 01:06:56,560
Yeah, I it's a bit 
confrontational for me. 

1225
01:06:56,560 --> 01:07:00,240
I love, I love this. 
It's it's interesting that it's 

1226
01:07:00,240 --> 01:07:05,400
like a double challenge, right? 
Because you know and you also 

1227
01:07:05,400 --> 01:07:10,000
feel that she, I will honestly 
say what I replied. 

1228
01:07:10,000 --> 01:07:14,280
I said, I replied bad losers. 
So that was my show. 

1229
01:07:14,320 --> 01:07:16,760
Your honesty and look, here's 
the thing. 

1230
01:07:16,760 --> 01:07:20,160
This is not about being a St. 
This is, this is about, and this

1231
01:07:20,160 --> 01:07:25,400
is an inconvenient video to 
watch if you if you don't want 

1232
01:07:25,480 --> 01:07:31,000
to, if you want to, if you enjoy
so much just venting or letting 

1233
01:07:31,000 --> 01:07:32,760
off or whatever. 
You don't want to challenge 

1234
01:07:32,760 --> 01:07:34,960
yourself. 
And the unfortunate thing about 

1235
01:07:34,960 --> 01:07:37,120
watching this is you will 
challenge yourself and saying am

1236
01:07:37,120 --> 01:07:38,920
I really being faithful to my 
intentions? 

1237
01:07:38,920 --> 01:07:40,880
Am I? 
What is my intention? 

1238
01:07:40,880 --> 01:07:44,440
But but I believe that's a 
positive thing because one of 

1239
01:07:44,480 --> 01:07:47,360
the most powerful questions we 
can ask us is what do I care 

1240
01:07:47,360 --> 01:07:48,560
about most? 
What are my values? 

1241
01:07:48,560 --> 01:07:51,200
What am I here to do? 
You know, you've done, out of 

1242
01:07:51,200 --> 01:07:52,880
all the crazy things you could 
have done, the world you've 

1243
01:07:52,880 --> 01:07:55,440
chosen to do what you do to, to 
do this podcast. 

1244
01:07:55,840 --> 01:07:58,560
And you've done that for some 
reasons that you care about the 

1245
01:07:58,560 --> 01:08:00,080
thing called Bitcoin really 
deeply. 

1246
01:08:00,080 --> 01:08:02,800
You care about a particular 
community and you want to bring 

1247
01:08:02,800 --> 01:08:04,560
knowledge to that community. 
You don't think we're being 

1248
01:08:04,560 --> 01:08:06,800
served as well as they could 
have been without your presence,

1249
01:08:06,800 --> 01:08:08,680
not through ego, but just 
because it was true. 

1250
01:08:09,120 --> 01:08:10,560
And so you create that gap for 
them. 

1251
01:08:10,600 --> 01:08:13,680
And so it's out of service. 
And then from time to time, and 

1252
01:08:13,680 --> 01:08:14,800
I'm the same, I do a lot of 
things. 

1253
01:08:14,800 --> 01:08:16,800
So I want to serve a community 
that I don't think will be 

1254
01:08:16,800 --> 01:08:18,880
served as well if it wasn't for 
me. 

1255
01:08:18,880 --> 01:08:21,520
Not for ego, but simply because 
I see a gap and I want to fill 

1256
01:08:21,520 --> 01:08:24,520
that gap. 
Yeah, it's honestly altruistic, 

1257
01:08:24,520 --> 01:08:26,040
right? 
It's honestly altruistic. 

1258
01:08:26,120 --> 01:08:27,960
Exactly. 
And now just because we have 

1259
01:08:27,960 --> 01:08:30,680
that altruism, it doesn't mean 
that altruism reflects through 

1260
01:08:30,680 --> 01:08:32,680
and every single atomic action 
we take, right? 

1261
01:08:33,120 --> 01:08:35,359
We're going to be on a spectrum 
depending on whether it's a good

1262
01:08:35,359 --> 01:08:38,520
day or bad day. 
However, if we ask ourselves 

1263
01:08:38,520 --> 01:08:40,640
that question, you know, what am
I here to do? 

1264
01:08:41,120 --> 01:08:43,040
What? 
Why am I doing it? 

1265
01:08:43,399 --> 01:08:46,720
Why did I choose this path? 
Does this communication express 

1266
01:08:46,720 --> 01:08:50,279
that intention? 
Just asking that question is 

1267
01:08:50,279 --> 01:08:55,120
enough to go maybe I'll say this
rather than that. 

1268
01:08:55,920 --> 01:08:58,600
That's all we need. 
Yeah, that's all we need. 

1269
01:08:58,600 --> 01:09:01,279
Yeah, 100%, man. 
I I thank you for showing me 

1270
01:09:01,279 --> 01:09:03,800
this or just helping me think 
about this again. 

1271
01:09:03,800 --> 01:09:08,279
Like, I I know how it works. 
It's more like, you know, with 

1272
01:09:08,279 --> 01:09:11,000
Elizabeth Warren. 
It's just I'm so disappointed. 

1273
01:09:11,600 --> 01:09:15,560
It's it's it's I'm so like Oh my
God like are there people are 

1274
01:09:15,560 --> 01:09:17,359
there really people like this 
out there right. 

1275
01:09:17,359 --> 01:09:21,080
Like it's it's that frustration 
that I think like oh we have a 

1276
01:09:21,080 --> 01:09:24,680
long way to go and this is only 
like 1 subject like Oh my God 

1277
01:09:24,680 --> 01:09:29,680
you know like that is that that 
frustration is what makes me 

1278
01:09:29,680 --> 01:09:31,960
tweet bad loser. 
I totally get it. 

1279
01:09:32,640 --> 01:09:36,600
And it's nice because I feel 
lighter afterwards, right? 

1280
01:09:36,760 --> 01:09:40,120
But you're totally agree it's 
not a long term thing and I love

1281
01:09:40,120 --> 01:09:43,439
that you connected that with 
this podcast 100%. 

1282
01:09:43,560 --> 01:09:46,520
My whole goal with the podcast 
is I start this, I wanna help my

1283
01:09:46,520 --> 01:09:50,120
generation. 
Yeah, I don't care if I make 

1284
01:09:50,120 --> 01:09:53,000
money or whatever. 
I have one goal, My first goal, 

1285
01:09:53,000 --> 01:09:56,600
one goal is make 100 episodes 
and and I'll see what happens. 

1286
01:09:56,600 --> 01:09:59,240
That's the whole that's the 
thing and nothing more than 

1287
01:09:59,240 --> 01:10:01,080
that, right? 
And so I love that you connected

1288
01:10:01,080 --> 01:10:03,040
it because that's true. 
That's that's I. 

1289
01:10:03,040 --> 01:10:05,040
Want to show you the status 
there, but on someone in 

1290
01:10:05,040 --> 01:10:08,240
particular that really is is a 
great example of this. 

1291
01:10:08,320 --> 01:10:10,160
And and I would say does this 
better than I do. 

1292
01:10:11,320 --> 01:10:15,720
And that's Lynn Alden and a lot 
of the people I talk to about 

1293
01:10:15,720 --> 01:10:17,520
Lenold and they respect two 
things about her. 

1294
01:10:17,840 --> 01:10:21,120
One is her deep knowledge of 
incredibly deep knowledge of her

1295
01:10:21,120 --> 01:10:23,760
content and her incisive 
intellect and ability to speak 

1296
01:10:23,760 --> 01:10:26,080
about it cohesively and 
concisely. 

1297
01:10:26,800 --> 01:10:31,120
And secondly is the way that she
communicates that information. 

1298
01:10:31,120 --> 01:10:35,240
So there's what she says and 
there's she's how she sees it. 

1299
01:10:35,680 --> 01:10:40,160
And both are equally important. 
And the reason that she was able

1300
01:10:40,160 --> 01:10:43,640
to do what she did with Alex 
Devries is if you watch that 

1301
01:10:43,640 --> 01:10:48,640
video, not once does she attack 
him, not once does she say, you 

1302
01:10:48,640 --> 01:10:50,240
know your statistic about this 
is wrong. 

1303
01:10:50,240 --> 01:10:51,680
She doesn't take that tack at 
all. 

1304
01:10:52,200 --> 01:10:56,120
She doesn't even talk about get 
into a debate with him. 

1305
01:10:57,400 --> 01:11:00,880
She just looks at the abstract 
points and then adds a more 

1306
01:11:00,880 --> 01:11:04,240
nuanced understanding than what 
he brings to the picture. 

1307
01:11:05,160 --> 01:11:08,880
Yes, and it's brutal. 
It's brutally effective because 

1308
01:11:08,880 --> 01:11:11,440
she doesn't get into a fight, 
she doesn't get into a debate, 

1309
01:11:12,480 --> 01:11:16,480
She furthers a conversation and 
she adds the missing nuance with

1310
01:11:16,480 --> 01:11:22,000
respect for the other person. 
And the turn around was 

1311
01:11:22,000 --> 01:11:25,640
absolutely phenomenal. 
And I think about that often, 

1312
01:11:25,640 --> 01:11:32,200
because here's the thing, I know
a lot of the ways that Alex de 

1313
01:11:32,200 --> 01:11:35,080
Vries is using data, there are 
statistics that have been 

1314
01:11:35,080 --> 01:11:37,520
debunked and there's things that
are inaccurate, etcetera. 

1315
01:11:38,200 --> 01:11:42,560
But I was ever in a conversation
that would not be the right go 

1316
01:11:42,560 --> 01:11:45,920
to, because then you just look 
like 2 politicians agreeing 

1317
01:11:45,920 --> 01:11:47,760
point disagreeing point by 
point. 

1318
01:11:48,240 --> 01:11:49,880
Yeah. 
Then you actually step into his 

1319
01:11:49,880 --> 01:11:52,640
frame of correct, Correct how 
he's working. 

1320
01:11:52,720 --> 01:11:55,200
Yeah, you cannot win a game from
your side of halfway. 

1321
01:11:56,400 --> 01:11:59,760
And that's the thing that a lot 
of the response of the Bitcoin 

1322
01:11:59,760 --> 01:12:01,320
community has been very 
defensive. 

1323
01:12:02,080 --> 01:12:04,640
And yes, there's there are some 
things that need to be defended 

1324
01:12:04,840 --> 01:12:06,800
and that's important. 
But that's only half the 

1325
01:12:06,800 --> 01:12:11,000
equation and that's why it's 
part of when I discovered that 

1326
01:12:11,000 --> 01:12:14,640
Bitcoin was had the potential to
be a tremendous net positive for

1327
01:12:14,640 --> 01:12:17,520
the environment, I said well, 
yes, there's some work to be 

1328
01:12:17,520 --> 01:12:21,080
done to defend false claims. 
There's also some work to be 

1329
01:12:21,080 --> 01:12:24,840
done and this is much more fun 
to tell the inspiring story that

1330
01:12:24,840 --> 01:12:31,160
hasn't yet been told. 
So yes, there's there's what you

1331
01:12:31,160 --> 01:12:35,840
say and there's how you say it 
and we have these examples And 

1332
01:12:35,840 --> 01:12:41,600
and I say that because I believe
Lynn Alden has as much impact 

1333
01:12:41,960 --> 01:12:46,680
the course of who she is as a 
person and the standard that she

1334
01:12:46,680 --> 01:12:51,000
helps us to rise up to become as
the education that she gives. 

1335
01:12:51,440 --> 01:12:55,240
And and we all as leaders within
the ecosystem have that same 

1336
01:12:55,640 --> 01:12:59,760
capability where there's the 
knowledge we empower and the 

1337
01:12:59,760 --> 01:13:02,160
education we give and the points
we make. 

1338
01:13:02,480 --> 01:13:04,480
And then there's who we're 
being, who we are. 

1339
01:13:05,480 --> 01:13:08,360
And and that's as important, I 
would say even more important 

1340
01:13:08,360 --> 01:13:10,880
because that has an even longer 
lasting legacy. 

1341
01:13:13,280 --> 01:13:14,600
And I love that we talked about 
this. 

1342
01:13:14,600 --> 01:13:17,360
This taught me a lot, actually. 
Like, I'm really thinking, OK, 

1343
01:13:17,360 --> 01:13:20,680
like I I know. 
I am thinking about tweets that 

1344
01:13:20,680 --> 01:13:26,280
I think where I tweeted more 
angrily, I'd say, and I think my

1345
01:13:26,280 --> 01:13:29,200
new outset is I'm going to, 
before I tweet that I'm going to

1346
01:13:29,200 --> 01:13:32,400
see, can I turn this around into
a positive thing? 

1347
01:13:32,400 --> 01:13:34,640
Because I absolutely, absolutely
agree. 

1348
01:13:34,640 --> 01:13:36,000
Yeah. 
So it's fascinating. 

1349
01:13:36,120 --> 01:13:38,080
It's fascinating. 
Like, I'm fascinated by the 

1350
01:13:38,080 --> 01:13:42,120
personal journey and challenge 
of understanding Bitcoin, which 

1351
01:13:42,120 --> 01:13:47,000
is exactly this, you know. 
One of the greatest moments of 

1352
01:13:47,000 --> 01:13:52,400
last year was I share the story 
and a tweet about a week ago was

1353
01:13:52,560 --> 01:13:56,160
a guy who wrote an article about
7 technologies that were green 

1354
01:13:56,160 --> 01:13:58,560
and the Bitcoin. 
And these articles come up like 

1355
01:13:58,600 --> 01:14:00,760
every two months someone will 
write one of them. 

1356
01:14:01,400 --> 01:14:05,120
And you know, the first reaction
is, oh, here we go again. 

1357
01:14:06,120 --> 01:14:08,360
And the second reaction is, do 
I, do I really have to be the 

1358
01:14:08,360 --> 01:14:10,280
guy who keeps on doing this 
again and again? 

1359
01:14:10,280 --> 01:14:12,120
I'm sick of sick of having to do
all these. 

1360
01:14:12,680 --> 01:14:15,280
Why do I have to debunk all 
these articles, right? 

1361
01:14:15,800 --> 01:14:17,840
I'd rather not be doing that. 
It's things I'd much rather be 

1362
01:14:17,840 --> 01:14:19,400
doing than debunking these 
articles. 

1363
01:14:20,160 --> 01:14:22,200
But I put that to one side. 
I put my frustration to one 

1364
01:14:22,200 --> 01:14:25,080
side, and I asked myself the 
question, OK, how would I like 

1365
01:14:25,080 --> 01:14:27,480
to be communicated to if I'd 
written that article? 

1366
01:14:28,160 --> 01:14:30,200
And that caused me to write in a
very different way. 

1367
01:14:30,600 --> 01:14:32,960
Now, I still challenge the 
article because that article 

1368
01:14:32,960 --> 01:14:35,160
needed to be challenged because 
contained some things which were

1369
01:14:35,160 --> 01:14:37,880
incorrect. 
But the way that I did it, the 

1370
01:14:37,880 --> 01:14:40,400
mindset I was in when I did it 
was completely different. 

1371
01:14:41,080 --> 01:14:43,480
And as a result of that, that 
opened up the possibility. 

1372
01:14:43,480 --> 01:14:45,520
And here's the thing. 
It's not a probability, it's a 

1373
01:14:45,520 --> 01:14:48,040
possibility. 
You can't control what the other

1374
01:14:48,040 --> 01:14:49,720
person does. 
You can be as respectful as you 

1375
01:14:49,720 --> 01:14:51,960
want. 
The other person can still be 

1376
01:14:51,960 --> 01:14:55,640
disrespectful back, but you 
increase the probability of 

1377
01:14:55,880 --> 01:14:59,640
reciprocation when you, from 
your side, communicate the way 

1378
01:14:59,640 --> 01:15:02,520
you want to be communicated to. 
And he wrote back and said, 

1379
01:15:02,520 --> 01:15:05,000
actually, you raised some 
interesting points there, but 

1380
01:15:05,000 --> 01:15:06,480
what about this and this and 
this? 

1381
01:15:06,960 --> 01:15:09,920
And I'm like, haha, OK, now 
we're in a dialogue, not a 

1382
01:15:09,920 --> 01:15:11,840
debate. 
I'm going to continue this. 

1383
01:15:12,280 --> 01:15:14,080
So I just said, oh, that that's 
an interesting point. 

1384
01:15:14,080 --> 01:15:16,280
Yes, you're right here. 
What about this And then this 

1385
01:15:16,280 --> 01:15:17,440
and this? 
And he said, oh, actually, I 

1386
01:15:17,600 --> 01:15:21,200
hadn't thought about this within
about two or three exchanges. 

1387
01:15:21,200 --> 01:15:23,680
He was like, actually, this 
looks really good. 

1388
01:15:24,320 --> 01:15:30,400
And then I could not believe it.
A week later, he wrote an 

1389
01:15:30,400 --> 01:15:33,960
article about the positive 
environmental benefits of 

1390
01:15:33,960 --> 01:15:38,480
Bitcoin. 
And I was like, Hallelujah, that

1391
01:15:38,480 --> 01:15:39,960
wasn't the outcome I was 
expecting. 

1392
01:15:39,960 --> 01:15:43,080
That wasn't the reason I did it,
but also reflect. 

1393
01:15:43,080 --> 01:15:46,240
And that says more about him 
than it does about me and about 

1394
01:15:46,240 --> 01:15:48,920
his virtues, because I know that
not everyone responds that way. 

1395
01:15:49,760 --> 01:15:52,080
But also it was partly because 
of the mindset I was in. 

1396
01:15:52,080 --> 01:15:55,640
And I know that had I followed 
my first impulse, it would have 

1397
01:15:55,640 --> 01:15:58,200
been impossible to respond that 
way. 

1398
01:15:58,880 --> 01:16:04,000
Yeah, but this is also a great 
illustration of, you know, as I 

1399
01:16:04,000 --> 01:16:06,920
said, bad loser. 
And I felt my ego was happy that

1400
01:16:06,920 --> 01:16:09,680
I did that right. 
That's a very small reward. 

1401
01:16:10,160 --> 01:16:13,000
Yeah, well, you know, with 
Elizabeth Warren, the game is 

1402
01:16:13,000 --> 01:16:14,120
not to get it to change your 
mind. 

1403
01:16:14,120 --> 01:16:16,560
That's not the game. 
The game is an internal game. 

1404
01:16:16,880 --> 01:16:19,560
It's an internal game about, you
know, can I? 

1405
01:16:20,360 --> 01:16:23,520
When it comes again, we become, 
as Aristotle said, what we 

1406
01:16:23,520 --> 01:16:25,960
habitually do. 
So there will come a time when 

1407
01:16:25,960 --> 01:16:28,120
you're talking to someone who's 
not an Elizabeth Warren, who 

1408
01:16:28,120 --> 01:16:30,000
does have the capacity to change
their mind. 

1409
01:16:30,240 --> 01:16:33,200
And if you've been in the the 
habit of communicating in the 

1410
01:16:33,200 --> 01:16:36,000
way that would encourage someone
to do so, you'll be practiced. 

1411
01:16:36,000 --> 01:16:37,680
It won't be a new thing you've 
suddenly got to do. 

1412
01:16:37,680 --> 01:16:40,160
It'll be part of who you are. 
So it'll it'll be a genuine 

1413
01:16:40,160 --> 01:16:43,000
rather than disingenuous. 
Yeah, now exactly. 

1414
01:16:43,000 --> 01:16:46,000
So, So what I wanted to say is 
like you illustrate that if you 

1415
01:16:46,000 --> 01:16:51,760
don't take the short little 
reward route, the longer route, 

1416
01:16:52,080 --> 01:16:55,320
yeah, it takes a bit longer 
route which is maybe trading or 

1417
01:16:55,320 --> 01:16:57,760
challenging. 
The reward is also a bit the 

1418
01:16:57,760 --> 01:17:00,960
reward is so much bigger. 
Yeah, and longer because it 

1419
01:17:00,960 --> 01:17:05,440
motivates you to keep continuing
this, but also you influenced 

1420
01:17:05,440 --> 01:17:09,920
someone else to challenge their 
themselves and then even create 

1421
01:17:09,920 --> 01:17:14,720
some output that is a 180 from, 
you know, 1-4 weeks before. 

1422
01:17:15,640 --> 01:17:18,360
And so I think that's that that 
that that should be emphasized 

1423
01:17:18,360 --> 01:17:19,520
more. 
I love, I love that. 

1424
01:17:19,520 --> 01:17:21,720
I think that's the mechanic, how
it works, right? 

1425
01:17:21,720 --> 01:17:25,120
Like the fact that you can 
accept that you have to struggle

1426
01:17:26,040 --> 01:17:28,360
before you can reap the rewards,
right? 

1427
01:17:28,360 --> 01:17:35,160
That is a universal thing in in 
in general, right? 

1428
01:17:35,160 --> 01:17:39,360
For your personal development, 
Yeah, love that, yeah. 

1429
01:17:39,360 --> 01:17:43,360
To wrap it up, I I asked the 
same question to everyone and 

1430
01:17:43,360 --> 01:17:46,440
that's what is a core belief 
that you will never let go. 

1431
01:17:46,960 --> 01:17:49,560
Oh man, you're in with a big 
one. 

1432
01:18:00,980 --> 01:18:02,500
I believe that love will change 
the world. 

1433
01:18:05,300 --> 01:18:06,780
Amazing. 
That's a great end. 

1434
01:18:07,520 --> 01:18:09,240
Thanks so much for this 
conversation. 

1435
01:18:09,240 --> 01:18:13,480
I really enjoyed it. 
And yeah, I I will link to all 

1436
01:18:13,480 --> 01:18:14,960
the places where people can find
you. 

1437
01:18:15,080 --> 01:18:20,280
Your book obviously, and your 
writings on badcoins.com. 

1438
01:18:20,320 --> 01:18:23,120
I love that. 
And yeah, thanks so much for 

1439
01:18:23,120 --> 01:18:25,360
coming on minute. 
I hope to do this again 

1440
01:18:25,360 --> 01:18:27,280
somewhere in the future. 
Thank you, Bram. 

1441
01:18:27,280 --> 01:18:29,600
It's been a pleasure. 
Cheers. 

1442
01:18:30,120 --> 01:18:32,920
I hope you enjoyed this episode.
If you did, it would be amazing 

1443
01:18:32,920 --> 01:18:35,760
if you could rate, review and 
subscribe on the podcast 

1444
01:18:35,760 --> 01:18:38,680
platform of your choice. 
It will help us educate more 

1445
01:18:38,680 --> 01:18:40,800
millennials on the importance of
Bitcoin. 

1446
01:18:41,080 --> 01:18:42,840
You can follow and connect with 
me on Twitter. 

1447
01:18:42,840 --> 01:18:47,480
I'm Brom K That's at BR AM K and
if you are or know someone who 

1448
01:18:47,480 --> 01:18:50,040
has an interesting perspective 
on Bitcoin that's worth sharing,

1449
01:18:50,040 --> 01:18:52,360
hit me up. 
I read and reply to every single

1450
01:18:52,360 --> 01:18:54,280
message. 
I appreciate your support and 

1451
01:18:54,280 --> 01:18:55,920
hope you'll be here for the next
episode. 

1452
01:18:56,240 --> 01:18:57,520
Thanks for listening. 
Bye.