All right. Hey, everyone, this is Brom
Konstein and you're listening to Bitcoin for Millennials.
Together with my guests on this podcast, I go on a journey to
discover how our current financial system works, why it's
flawed, and why Bitcoin is the most relevant technology that
you, my fellow millennials, should understand and adopt.
In this episode, I'm joined by Mickey Koss.
He's a Special Operations Forces veteran and West Point graduate
who currently works at the Finance Corps of the US Army.
After falling deep down the rabbit hole of Bitcoin in early
2020, he started writing about Bitcoin as a proof of work
project. He currently has published over
80 articles on Bitcoin and outlets like Forbes, Bitcoin
Magazine, and Bitcoin news.com. I'm happy that he's here.
Welcome man. Yeah.
Thanks for having me. Yeah.
Thanks for coming on. I, as I told you before like I I
read some of your articles and I I think it's really cool that
you know like you're in a in a normal job serving and alongside
you're you're setting your foot into you know the Bitcoin space
which I think is really cool especially with your writing.
So I thought it would be fun to to invite you and and have a jam
on Bitcoin. But I I first wanted to check
like which generation do you belong to?
I guess I'm a millennial was born in early 90s.
So I think I'm I think I'm kind of in the middle or tail end of
millennials. I think you're on the edge
actually like I'd I also it's called Bitcoin for millennials
but I forgot which which years those are.
I think, I think you're on the tail end actually.
Yeah, 96 is is the is the last year.
So what's your experience of helping our generation
understand Bitcoin? Do you find it as hard as I do
sometimes? Yeah, I think there's a lot of
apathy, right. And so you, you know, you had
the things in OA like Occupy Wall Street, and everyone sort
of wants to protest everything, but nobody wants to really take
action and do anything of a sort of substance, right?
So, you know, you go sit on Wall Street and you yell about things
for what, a week or two? And then it sort of evaporates
and nothing happens. Nothing changes but.
Bitcoin is a protest, but it's a peaceful protest because you're
just sort of defunding the system that you find
unconscionable or or corrupt and and then you're holding your
money in a way that can't be devalued.
And so it's it's beneficial to you financially and it also
pulls money from the system that you you claim to despise.
Yeah, it's funny right? Like what I love about bit about
Bitcoin and and doing the work right.
Like you cannot only talk anymore you have to walk the
walk, right. And as you illustrate here, I
think Bitcoin is the perfect example of actually walking,
walking the walk. Last week I recorded with with
Jeff Booth and I asked him like okay, how do you think Bitcoin
is going to develop, etc. Like what does the future look
like? And he said, well, the future is
actually now. Like, you can do the thing right
now, you know, like you can move away from the broken system that
we all know is broken. Right.
And some people are just not really ready to accept it yet.
But you can do that. You can do this now.
You don't really have to wait. Like there's actually a door to
the to the other side. So yeah, I love that.
I love that you say that too, because I, I, I didn't really
think about that, about it like that before.
But it's, I think more because, yeah, I've just been in Bitcoin
for so long that. Yeah, I don't really, yeah think
like that anymore. But I think it's it's really
important like I I saw you went down the rabbit hole in 2020,
like early 2020. I think you then got it really
quickly to be honest. You know, it's taken me years.
I think it's a lot of people that takes takes longer than
than you did. Like what what what was that
experience like going down that rabbit hole?
Like can you describe what what that means for you?
Yeah. So it it started out I was I was
a commander at Fort Hood and one of my soldiers told me about
mining and so I started diving in.
He he was actually mining Ethereum.
But none of that stuff made any sense to me.
But but Bitcoin did. And so I I sort of went down the
rabbit hole pitched my wife was like, hey, we should buy a
Bitcoin miner. She's like, no, what the fuck
no. So I I went down deeper, dove a
little deeper, and I was finally able to to convince her to let
me buy this. You know, we bought it together.
Partners, right. Equal partners.
It's yeah. And so it started as as sort of
like this Cool. Like, OK, I can buy a computer
and just make money from it. It's sort of like real estate,
but a but a lower entry point. And then and then COVID
happened. Bitcoin crashed from like 8 to
3000. You know it was it was kind of
scary because we had just started buying and then the
government started passing trillion dollar stimulus
packages. And so I I learned really quick
but it but it was sort of it was sort of like a like a nihilistic
approach at first almost where where I'm like you know like I I
get Bitcoin and I understand that it's going to go up a lot.
So if we just ape into it now, we can sell it when it goes up
10 or 100 X and you know Fast forward net worth a couple
decades and but but the deeper you go, you know, you sort of
get that conviction where the price doesn't even really matter
anymore. You just need more Bitcoin.
And so when when I saw that pump, I think it was last week
with the ETF fake news, I felt sick.
You know, I was like, oh, I don't have enough.
You know you never have enough. You're like.
Like, everyone's freaking out. Like, yeah, Bitcoin is going to
win. I'm like, no, stop.
I need it. I need it to, like, stay in this
range for just a little bit longer.
I need to reach this goal. But it's an interesting
dichotomy of I'm right and damn or something.
Yeah, at the same time. Yeah, it is.
It's it's like you're happy when it's going up, but you're also
like, shit, I wish I had more. But it's it's great because it's
like it's this self reinforcing, positive feedback loop of
incentives, right? And so, so OK, you want to
protest the system, you put your money into Bitcoin, well you're
going to make a shit load of money if you can hold on to it.
And so it's it's beneficial. It's a beneficial, productive
protest. And so when you say like the the
the first angle was kind of nihilistic as in you know number
go up we get we we we get rich. So what what was it that made
you like not not see the other stuff at that point.
So just learning as you go or like where there are certain
beliefs that that you held on to.
I mean number go up is still important.
It's it's, I mean it's the best marketing tool we have, right?
But I think. There's there's two, there's two
things that come to mind which which sort of helped me dive
deeper into like societal implications and why Bitcoin is
so important. And so first one I remember
vividly is hearing Brandon Quidom's pioneer species thesis
and how Bitcoin is monetizing energy at the source and
incentivizing infrastructure development in the third world.
And so, like, that is super cool, right?
And and theoretically, you know, and I've written articles
recently where where you have Bitcoin miners stepping in in
Canada, in the United States to revitalize areas of of the Rust
Belt where globalization took away the manufacturing.
So now you have high unemployment in areas with too
much power. And so, you know, those energy
companies have to constantly raise prices on population that
can already barely afford to get by.
Yeah, so it's like societal implications like that.
And then just just Bitcoin fixing everything, right?
And so just tying back all of the problems to monetary
debasement, Greg Foss's bond math and debt spiral concept,
you know, where it's like, OK, well.
If if you type it like, how often do you think about the
Roman Empire, You know what I mean?
Like that that means where it's like, OK, as as the Roman Empire
debase their currency further and further society sort of fell
apart because you know, you're devaluing human time and you're
breaking people's realities, right?
And so, so they can no longer sort of predict or plan for the
future and and and it just sort of destroys the soul of society.
And if we can't, if we can't print money anymore, then then
maybe we could preserve that or fix that or or at least hold it
off for a bit longer. I think.
I think that's already like a pretty deep thing that you went
to pretty quickly. But I think this is like,
especially one of the things when you really go down the
rabbit hole. I loved, like the whole notion
of once you see it, you cannot Unsee it, right?
Like there's no one, I've not seen anyone who like saw Bitcoin
and then was like no, never mind.
Like this is, this is just not a thing.
But like the route you're taking, I also find very
interesting especially, you know I think it's it's safe.
Tina Moose who talks about, you know, long time preference and
short time preference and that that's the long time preference
is basically stolen from us, especially if you combine it
with, you know, like all the depth in America.
If you look at the US debt clock, you see that when you are
born, you already have $100,000 in depth, which is not something
you have to pay, but actually something that is also stolen
from you in a sense, right? Like it's it's money taken from
the future that that you can no longer have.
So, so even when you're born now you will have a task of building
or getting that that, that, that value or that wealth back in a
sense. But you are totally, you know,
the system is working against you.
So that's why a lot of people are buying stupid stuff and have
this short time preference basically.
And then when he talks about, well, when people can actually
save their wealth in in time and space right, they can have this
long time preference which that's the thesis then.
Right. Which leads to more prosperity
and peace and collaboration and freedom and and and all these
things is is that what you also mean when you talk about this?
Yeah, yeah. And I mean that really appealed
to me at the start. So I I I studied economics in in
college and you know we had a little bit of discussion between
Keynesian and Austrian schools. But but it was it was mostly
Keynesian right? And and they would say, OK,
well, risk free interest rate. How is it risk free?
Because the government could default, right?
Isn't that a risk? And they say, well no, they can
just print money. And I was kind of like, what the
fuck are you talking about? Risk money.
Like, isn't that Isn't that like, stealing?
Isn't that terrible? Like, won't printing money like
cause inflation? And they're like, now there's
too much demand for dollars. It'll be fine.
We'll never get inflation. And it's like.
Like, that was kind of the first crack, right?
Like you're going through microeconomics and you're doing
all these, like, calculus calculations with these stupid
equations and you're like, OK, I can do the math.
But like, where the hell do these equations even come from?
Like, you're just estimating things or you're guessing things
or you're just making things up So I can solve a math problem
and it it just, so much of it is just manufactured, right?
And that that's that's I find difficult that when when people
talk about the economy or the the beast of inflation and blah
blah, like it's coming from something else than another
human's mind basically, right. Like it's an engineered system
and you're and they are also yeah discharging the flaws
basically you know like if something like as you mentioned
if you if you ask that then it's almost like a childish answer
right. Where in another another day in
this study as you mentioned you are doing like crazy
calculations, but this answer to that very fundamental question
is over simplistic almost like yeah, don't worry about that or
something, yeah, yeah that's also expense, it's so crazy.
And so, I mean, yeah, sorry. Yeah, sorry.
I guess economics is just, it's it's just exercise in logical
thinking, right. But they try to turn it into a
science, and they use the science to justify policies.
That that sort of empower them to make these these God like
decisions. And so in making these God like
decisions and in devaluing the currency, debasing the currency,
you you are devaluing the value of human time and effort and you
are lowering everyone's time preference to where we you know
the like. The stock market trades off of
one thing now, right? It's like.
It's like, is the Fed going to print more money or not?
It's it's just it's us all one trade because everything has
become so financialized. There's so much moral hazard
built into the system that it's all just one big trade.
Yeah, and constantly also, right?
Like as you mentioned, like every every Fed meeting or every
announcement, every publication or whatever.
Like you have to constantly pay attention to what is happening
with the wealth that you have. And I for me that's like very
feels very risky, right? Like I love that.
I love, I love that thought about that.
I don't know who mentioned that. I think it's maybe it was Luke
Broyles, but he said like, OK, so you have a job or a venture
and you take risk, right? Because you choose to do that
job or that venture, but then when you're home your life is
still influenced by people you don't know and they're basically
forcing you to take more risk to mitigate the rules and and the
decisions that that they basically make, right.
So it's actually very life in general is made more risky and
that's why I personally am into Bitcoin because I don't like
taking that risk right. Like I see Bitcoin as a non risk
solution to at least trying to protect my wealth, right?
And I think a lot of people are not aware of the fact that they
are a risk manager next to their job or venture basically.
Yeah. So the constant devaluation of
money makes everyone have to sort of turn into a part time.
Professional investor in order to just protect themselves and
and be able to live their lives, right.
And so I save in Bitcoin because I'm lazy and risk averse.
I don't, I don't want to save my money in in a bunch of stuff
with with all this, you know, counterparty risk and and
debasement, it's like, OK you invest in this company, the Fed
decides to hike interest rates 300% and then the company's out
of business. You know what I mean?
Yeah. And so they, they, these
companies can't even plan, you know, several years in advance
because they have no idea where interest rates are going to be.
Yeah. So when you say I'm, I'm lazy
and I don't want to take that risk, like, I have the same.
And then I immediately think, like, this should be perfect for
any human, right? Because humans are lazy.
But I think nowadays it's kind of like, I'm lazy but I also
want to become rich quickly, right.
And and so that's kind of how our society is now now shaped.
I think people have the wrong I yeah, the wrong beliefs about
money. Like how, how do you see that?
Like how how those beliefs shape, shape the current
society. Yeah, I think it ties back into
that currency debasement, right. And so I mean one of the reasons
why people are so into crypto and is like the same reason so
many people buy lottery tickets and and gamble right is.
Is is everyone is struggling and and it's becoming harder and
harder for the government and and and institutions to hide the
fact that that inflation is sort of running away from us right.
The currency debasement has has gone too far but they're going
to have to take it even further And so people are feeling the
pain and and and they're not really sure why or what's going
on but it's causing this sort of societal.
Nihilism. I guess that that attracts
people into these get get rich quick schemes like like crypto,
like gambling and like like lottery tickets.
And because I I think a lot of people feel helpless.
You know, they've like I, I I know some people that have saved
for years to try to get a house. But you know fed prints, money,
house prices go up 30%. It's like wait, what are you
supposed to do? You know your savings are
getting devalued. Every couple years in these, in
these accelerating cycles of currency debasement.
Yeah. And So what for you like, like
what I like when I talk to bit corners, like you instantly kind
of touch up on all these different dimensions that you
obviously come across, right when you go down, go down the
rabbit hole. What was like the thing that
actually made you see it? Like what dimension for you was
like, OK, you know you started obviously with with the mining,
was it then the money printing in in COVID when where you
really saw it? Yeah, I I think it was a
combination of of like the COVID restrictions and in the money
printing simultaneously where you know blanket decision was
you know economies, businesses were destroyed across the entire
world. And the government just printed
money to to sort of stem the bleeding, you know what I mean?
But but not everybody made it out, OK.
And so we were in sort of like this, this quasi Great
Depression scenario, but the stock market is is just
screaming hot and it's just because of the money printing.
And so that that happened not not that long after I got into
it and it really just sort of solidified.
My conviction in Bitcoin and and sort of precipitated this this
shift in perspective from Bitcoin being like the get rich
quick scheme like I like I had kind of initially characterized
it at but but to a not get poor slowly scheme and so do you see
Bitcoin as as a technology just technology are also it's like
like a philosophy you know like I I like the idea of well kind
of the contradiction of what we just mentioned like if you're
lazy you should actually Bitcoin but it's not a get rich quick
thing you like you have it's very challenging right and you
challenge your personal beliefs and your time preference and all
these things. So how how do you see it?
Like as a technology or also also like that philosophical
part? I I think it's sort of the merge
of both, right? If if you only view Bitcoin as a
technology, you're missing the point entirely.
I, you know, I had AI had this wealth manager in Canada reach
out to me who who wanted to talk about Bitcoin and he was going
to, you know, pay me to do some consulting with them.
But when I got on the phone, he wanted to talk about, you know.
Blockchain logistics with like you know, globally shipping
industries and stuff. And I'm like, dude, you are so
far off, like you don't even understand.
And so like the the technology is, is just a piece of it,
right? The technology is not new but
the combination of the technologies that make up
Bitcoin is what makes it strong, right?
At the same time is is yes, it it is a philosophy as well of of
you know upholding individual rights and freedoms and and
making sure that individual value is is sort of preserved in
the face of growing global authoritarianism and and
increasingly volatile monetary policies.
And I I guess you can't in in my view is is you can't, you can't
take Bitcoin as just a technology.
But you I think I think to like truly grasp it you need to dive
into the philosophical side as well.
Because if if you don't understand why printing money is
is sort of immoral, then then you're never truly going to
grasp Bitcoin. Yeah.
I think that's also like one of the things that I encounter a
lot that just that one thing you just said about, you know,
printing money is immoral and changes a lot, changes your
situation, even while you're doing the right thing or you're
saving for a house, etcetera. You know you're still confronted
with these with this external. How do you say that, like
external influence into your life that, well will never stop.
We'll always be there. But you have never thought about
it, right? What What does that say about
the concept of trust? You know, I I love how Bitcoin
is super transparent. And you know, as I said before,
like you have to walk the walk. You cannot just talk.
You have to walk. You have to walk the talk.
What does it say about our current concept of trust if
people are not even shocked by the morality of of this money
printing? I mean, I I think, I think
they've just been conditioned to accept it.
They don't. They don't really think about
it. And so I I I do think it's
gotten to the point where a lot of people are starting to wake
up because, you know, everyone feels like something's wrong and
they can't really put their finger on it.
You know you see those pictures or not pictures, But but if you
see videos from like TikTok on Twitter pretty frequently.
The groceries and stuff. Yeah.
Yeah, like the groceries, you know, the women crying, like, I
can't afford rent. I can't afford this.
Like, how am I? I, you know, I live.
I can't afford to live in the city I work in.
So my I commute for three hours a day and I have no life.
You know it's it's just it's it's the cantillion effect.
It's inflation. It's it's the money printing,
you know and it's just it's devaluing everything and and
people are are I think they're starting to wake up to it but
but a lot of people are still resistant.
Yeah, I find it. There's so, so many paradoxes
right in the current state where this is also kind of laziness in
a sense, right? Where you think like.
And and also if I speak for myself, like I've said this
multiple times on this podcast, like I I think as a millennial
in the Western world, I think we grew up in the best time to ever
grow up from any person, whoever lived, right.
And things were just there. They were done for you.
Everything always worked. Electricity, water, housing,
like all all these things. Like they're the whole concept
of no one is coming to save you. We didn't really learn, at least
if I talk for myself, right? And so I think it's the video
you talked about about the commuting, Is that is that the
one that went like viral today where the girl talks about, you
know, this nine to five, I cannot do it.
I don't know if you saw that one today, but it's like she says
the exact same thing, like I commute for 90 minutes because I
cannot afford to live in the city, etc.
And you know. You almost see that realization
of them like, this is not arranged for me.
I have AI have a very big, I have a very big problem.
And I kind of recognized that laziness in there.
Not it's not laziness on purpose, but it's just kind of,
yeah, it's being unaware almost right.
I I actually also saw a video today of a woman who was like
protesting and talking about. I also cannot find a house and I
have like study depth and blah blah.
And then there was this guy on TikTok who then went to her
Instagram and then she just went to Bali and like another place
and taking photos for likes on Instagram etcetera.
So like what? Like what do you want?
You know, do you have a problem or not?
Like you cannot consume on one side and then complain on the
other side. Right.
And I. It's not really a question in
there. It's like more reflection of
where it's so confusing. It's so paradoxical.
Yeah, How people operate right now, if I've heard millennials
value experience experiences more than a lot of things.
And so I I I think deep down. A lot of millennials are deeply
nihilistic and so they they spend money on on experiences
like travel and stuff like that while they're young because they
figure if they save and invest it's not going to matter
anyways. You know like we you always hear
it's Social Security in the United States is going to run
out by like well before you know we get to retire.
And so I I think there's just like this, this societal malaise
built in where where people are just, they've gotten to the
point where they they don't even care to try anymore to a certain
extent because because things have gotten so difficult for
them. Yeah, but if we don't take the
take the leap to Bitcoin, right? If we talk about Bitcoin for
millennials, we want to help them discover Bitcoin and adopt
it. There is a certain part into
being into Bitcoin that that. Is about the self custody, is
about autonomy, is about taking care of what you own, not using
a third party to do that for you, right.
I try to Orange Bill. My friends from time to time,
you know like then I throw Bitcoin in again and I I asked
them questions like OK, if you want to get 100K from the bank
cash, do you think that's possible And then they say, well
probably not today but maybe in two days, but it's fine, it's
just a nuisance, right? Like they don't really see it as
a as a problem. Where I say, well my point is
that there's some you know there's a third party between
you and and that and that what you own but they don't really
see that as a problem. They think it's all good.
Like how how, how would you approach?
I just want to say teaching people about that autonomy part,
like you have to be autonomous and and to become sovereign to
actually have more freedom, right and and more choices.
What's your what's your thought on that?
It's it's hard. It's hard to orange peel people
who don't care about, you know like this subject you're talking
to right. And so if I mean if they don't
care about autonomy it it's hard to sort of orange pillow using
the autonomy thing I guess. I guess I'm not really sure how
to answer this you know it's like some people don't care like
my sister doesn't not give a shit about self custody right.
But she has a little bit of GBTC so it's like is that is that is
anything better than nothing right.
And so if if someone really doesn't give a shit about the
self custody piece, maybe try something like, you know maybe
they care about the environment and you're like OK, well these
miners are you know mitigating methane all over the world.
They're sort of developing, you know energy in Africa and South
America and like hydropower stuff like that.
I guess there's no there's no like 1 surefire way to orange
pill somebody. I I don't even really try
anymore. I I just sort of let them know
they don't like the Bitcoin dude and then you know, whatever sort
of context that they want to ask questions in, I can help guide
them. Yeah, yeah, I I think I'm the
same currently. Like as I mentioned, I just try
again right from time to time. But I kind of gave up in some
way. Maybe they call when it's 100K
and they'll be like, OK, what is, what is this thing?
Maybe I need to get in, But yeah, for me that's also been.
Kind of the struggle also along the way.
Like, I like, I love these people, right?
Like I want to tell them what I've discovered and what I've
learned and what I cannot unlearn anymore and what I hope
for them as well. But yeah, I I fully agree.
Like they have to be open to it on one of the dimensions, right?
To actually just pull a thread and then just, you know, start
going down their own, their own rabbit hole in a sense.
So who? And I also want to ask you like
because of course you also have like an economics background and
you learned more about the the Keynesian part and the other
part like who who or what has been most influential to in in
in like shaping your views on money and risk and and wealth.
I would, I would say Greg Foss and Preston Pitch.
I listen well I guess Greg doesn't have his own podcast but
I've I've probably listened to everything Greg's been on and
then Preston Pitch with you know like the macro analysis it might
go over some people's heads but I but I find I find his his I
guess quantitative analysis with with you know sovereign debt and
end markets really appealing. And then I guess on the on the
philosophical side, I've I've listened to most of Robert
Breedlove stuff and so like those I think, I think that's a
really interesting way to to recontextualize money in a in a
philosophical way. Yeah, the same people for me
actually mostly mostly Greg, like I I do not have an
economics background or a finance background.
Actually hope to get Craig on the on the part we've been D
Ming so it would be would be fun like his energy is crazy but I
like I don't have that background and he and I think
it's only like maybe 4 podcasts or something where he's been in
like he really triggered me to like go deeper down that
dimension basically right. Like, I never learned anything
about it. And and just like the past three
years I've been going down that rabbit hole and it's just
really. Inspiring, I think also because
he's a bit older, like not old, but a bit older than than than
us. And I think even the general
like Bitcoin crowd and I think it's really cool to see that he
spent like 3035 years in traditional finance.
And really turned his entire head around, right, like a 180.
And he understands where it's coming and where he's coming
from, like what the problems are and all these things.
And he now also sees the solution.
So for me, that's also very admirable in a sense, right,
Because it's really, it's really difficult to to drop beliefs
that you think you have or or drop the things that that you
thought you learned. And then really like going to
the opposite direction. So yeah, cool.
You mentioned Greg Foss, like, I I love him too.
So and because you do again have this background, like do you do
when you think about like how Bitcoin could change society and
stuff like that I I I think a lot about like the current state
of like finance and stuff like do you think capitalism is is
like the most most ethical system we could follow?
Or and like where we are now, Is that like the bad part of
capitalism or is it totally not related?
No, I don't. I don't think we're in a
capitalist society right now. It's like, no, I don't want to
say this out loud. So I I think I think capitalism
is how do I say this is is is the most moral system.
Ayn Ayn Rand. So she wrote Atlas Shrugged and
a bunch of other stuff but she I think she does a really good job
of of articulating like why capitalism is a is a moral is a
moral system and it's just everybody is pursuing their own
self-interest and and in a in a collective society, collectivist
society you know people people like to talk about greed and
self-interest being a bad thing. But if if the markets were
completely free and everybody is is pursuing their own
self-interest you know it it it makes society better that's
that's what built America from you know this like backwoods you
know pioneers fighting Indians and in the West to to an
economic powerhouse right. It was capitalism in it.
Capitalism is is sort of, I mean not not everything's going to be
equal, right? But but a rising tide lifts all,
all ships. And so there's there's there's
room and capitalism to take care of the less fortunate through
through, you know, charities and stuff.
But if you think about it, like, why do people give to charities
right now it's, you know, maybe a little bit because it makes
them feel good. Well, does that mean they're
completely altruistic or they doing it for selfish reasons
because they want to feel good about themselves or do they want
a giant tax write off, you know what I mean?
And so it's just it's it's all self-interest, man, and and
self-interest makes the world go round.
And it and it's not a bad thing, you know, buy Bitcoin because
you're greedy and you'll make the network more resilient and
you'll make everyone who also buys Bitcoin better off too.
I love that last part. So yeah, maybe.
Maybe Bitcoin is in some way also like.
But now it's not the perfect capitalism.
But I do like the reinforcing as you mentioned right?
Like it's not just for yourself it's for the for the collective
as well. And I also I I don't really see
like any I I agree that capitalism is the most ethical
system you know in in concept at least.
Right. And and I love to just simple
examples of if we both have a bakery and my breads are better
than more people buy my breads than your breads and then.
You figure out, you know, bread baking is not really my thing,
and I'm going to explore something else like that.
Yeah, for me, that's just rational sense, right?
Like, why? Why would you pursue something
that's you wouldn't enjoy and you're not good at?
And if as a collective, you're taking care of the collective,
then you also have the space to find that thing.
Where you can genuinely you know add value and and be good at.
So yeah in the concept I also think that capitalism is the
best but but currently when you said about giving to charity I
thought about tax write off what's my first thought.
Yeah, and it's again, again, it's like the walk the talk
thing, right? It's it's it's it's not real,
it's not altruistic. And I think especially in
Bitcoin, a lot of things are actually.
Very altruistic also, yeah. Like what you're doing with
writing articles or what I try to do with this podcast and
other people try to do with books and conferences and stuff
like that. Like it's to educate and help
other other people to not only benefit ourselves but you know
again also the the collective. So yeah, I'm excited to see to
see where that goes as a, as a. As someone who's spent time in
the Army and is currently still in the Army, like, are you
familiar with the software thesis of Jason Lowry?
A little bit? I know it's sort of
controversial. And so I've spoken to Jason
about it and essentially it's a lot of people think that, OK,
they want the military to like take up Bitcoin mining and you
know, sort of nationalize the industry.
It's it's not really that at all from from what I've spoken to
him about. And so the way I understand it
is the United States promoting Bitcoin mining at a national
level as a strategic imperative in order to maintain freedom of
transaction for the United States.
And so it's it's not like a military branch where like you
know, like the army is setting up Bitcoin miners.
It's it's more so a policy route where where mining is is
supported in the United States as a strategic imperative for
for the country's economic livelihood, essentially.
No. And do you have any thoughts on
it or it's just baseline understanding and that's that's
it. No, no, no, no critiques.
I I mean I think, I think any country who is hostile to
Bitcoin mining will be regretting it dearly in the next
like 5 to 10 years. So, you know, I, I, I think
Jason, so a lot of people like, oh you.
So he's not writing for you dummies.
He's writing for like generals at the Pentagon.
You know it's not for. You to clarify, I love it as in
love like I I thought it was super interesting actually.
Like the whole the whole criticizing.
I actually, yeah, it's kind of like when they say like oh he's
your government puppet or something like that.
That's kind of where the critique came from.
But I think. How he builds up, you know, what
he's talking about. And his reasoning and
argumentation, I think was, at least from my point of view,
pretty solid. And it makes sense, right?
Where in essence he says there's always power projection and then
he has a. Examples of animals, right?
And that you know lions go for the wounded zebra and they don't
go for the elephant because it is more ended energy expenditure
to get the elephant and the zebra etc.
And so that that is just a by law like something in nature
that is always there also between humans.
So war is more normal than peace basically.
So power projection is always there right?
And that like the next frontier after rockets and stuff like
that is cyberspace. And so that's where he talks
about, you know, defending your own cyberspace through the
computer network. That is, that is Bitcoin, right?
Yeah. I don't understand the critique,
but I wanted to ask you like what what your thoughts were.
But yeah, like we don't really have to get into it if if that's
just that. But yeah, I was excited to hear
that. Yeah, yeah.
I mean, no deep thoughts, Okay. Well then, then we'll then we'll
see what comes of it, right? Like, yeah, he was writing it
for generals and like a Pentagon briefing and stuff like that.
So we'll see. We'll see if they listen.
And why do you think that that countries against Bitcoin who
are against Bitcoin mining will regret it?
Like, what's your fault there? I mean at the base level rate,
it's just, it's just economic growth.
So, so you get the economic growth, you know the bitcoiners
are going to become probably like the richest population in
human history. And on top of that it's
incentivizing energy growth. And so countries that ban or or
or are hostile towards Bitcoin mining are going to miss out on
on a lot of the positive impacts that Bitcoin mining is going to
have on the energy infrastructure and so in the
next like. Ten, 20-30 years, I I don't
think Bitcoin mining will necessarily exist as a stand
alone business, but rather it'll be integrated into the
electrical infrastructure as a grid balancing tool.
And so you know any country who who is hostile is going to miss
out on that and then you know they're not, they're not going
to have a solid. Economy, because they're not
going to have reliable power and power is essential for human
flourishing. And so I mean at the baseline
that like bitcoins impact on on power markets and energy
efficiency is, you know, it's probably reason enough to to
leave it alone and let it flourish in the country all by
itself. Yeah, yeah, I fully agree.
I I also think that we could actually see that sooner than
later with the current situation in the world and where energy is
obviously could be used to put pressure right on other
countries like cutting off countries etcetera.
And of course you also see that in a lot of countries also my
country like the whole, the entire energy grid is not even
prepared to facilitate all the like renewable stuff etcetera.
And and you already have examples especially like in
Texas where where the miners actually provide lots of value
to to keep it stable. So I agree with what you say.
I yeah, I think it it it could be sooner maybe that's kind of
also could also be like the surprise in a sense like that
that entire dimension of Bitcoin which I think yeah it's a study
by itself almost how to utilize that and especially on like a
like a country, country, country level.
So I also wanted to ask you it's like one of the last questions
you know if someone asks you what what is Bitcoin and why
should I care. We kind of like had the all
these different dimensions, you know, where where would you
start with answering that question or where did you try to
start before you? I I guess it depends, right?
It depends on who I'm talking to, you know, A lot of times
it'd be like Bitcoin is a scam and you shouldn't give a shit,
you know, just leave me alone. I'm just kidding.
I wouldn't say that. I I think if if I know them I'll
I'll sort of say something like. You know like digital gold,
right? It's just, it's just digital
gold and now with an absolute supply cap.
But it it's hard to answer that without knowing who's asking the
question because because you know, you could, you could
contextualize it in the way that's most important to you and
completely turn somebody off for from Bitcoin for like the rest
of their life, right. And so it's it's sort of a a
very high stakes question. Where, where, Where?
When people ask me questions about Bitcoin, I I usually
answer the question with questions to to try to try to
like, dial in what they actually care about and what they're what
they're sort of looking for. And so with with my sister, you
know I'll talk about like like I wrote, I wrote an article about.
Peru and how it's, you know, helping lift people out of
poverty in Peru. Well, her husband is from Peru,
right. And so that's sort of like this
very personal touch that that can appeal to my sister.
Whereas other people are just, you know, I've had, I've had
friends that sell their house and they're just sitting on like
a pile of cash. They don't know what to do with
it. I'm like, well, hey, maybe like
put a little bit into Bitcoin. It's it's savings.
It's just it's a long way. It's a long term savings plan or
you know other people. Yeah, a family that's criticized
criticized the the energy industry And so you know OK well
Bitcoin is a way to make renewable energy like more
viable in you know integrating it to the grid.
And so it just, it really depends on who's who's asking
the question. Yeah.
Yeah, great examples. And yeah, I agree.
I, I really try to switch from explaining to asking more
questions, but I find it hard because I just love the whole,
the entire subject, right. So I just start talking and
then. But yeah, I love that angle.
Like just just ask, ask more questions.
All right. So last question I have and I
ask everyone the same thing. What's a core belief that you
will never let go? Trying to think about how to put
this it it's sort of it's sort of evolves around family and so
I I think with the millennials like I I don't have a ton of
friends at work because I have three kids and they don't even
have a girlfriend right and and so with with the money printing.
And you sort of get that nihilistic attitude where people
don't look towards the future, they just live in the present
and they're going out to bars and drinking stuff every night.
And so I I think, I think lowering the time preference and
and putting the focus on on family, you know, in order to
build something that is lasting is is sort of a core principle,
right? And so.
I forget who said it, but it's sort of like if you, if you want
to change the world, raise good kids, you know?
I love that legacy. Yeah, just a little time for
reference. Building a legacy.
Love that, man. I fully agree.
Thank you. I think that's a that's a great
ending. Yeah.
Where can where can people find you?
You have a nice Twitter name and and I well, I'll make sure to
link to your your articles as well.
But yeah, where? Where can people learn more
about you and and find you online?
I'm on. I'm on Twitter and LinkedIn.
Twitter handle is is in the name.
It's Plebius economist. It gave it about 10 seconds
worth of. But in my Twitter profile,
there's a link tree that has all my author pages in my link to my
LinkedIn profile. So feel free to hit me up there
if you want. Also, Ben, I'll make sure to
link to everything. And yeah, thanks again for this
conversation and keep in touch. Yeah.
Thanks a lot. I hope you enjoyed this episode.
If you did, it would be amazing if you could rate, review and
subscribe on the podcast platform of your choice.
It will help us educate more millennials on the importance of
Bitcoin. You can follow and connect with
me on Twitter. I'm Brom K that's at Bramk.
And if you are or know someone who has an interesting
perspective on Bitcoin that's worth sharing, hit me up.
I read and reply to every single message.
I appreciate your support and hope you'll be here for the next
episode. Thanks for listening.
Bye.