1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:01,680 All right. Hey, everyone, this is Brom 2 00:00:01,680 --> 00:00:04,280 Konstein and you're listening to Bitcoin for Millennials. 3 00:00:04,280 --> 00:00:06,920 Together with my guests on this podcast, I go on a journey to 4 00:00:06,920 --> 00:00:09,720 discover how our current financial system works, why it's 5 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:12,480 flawed, and why Bitcoin is the most relevant technology that 6 00:00:12,480 --> 00:00:15,200 you, my fellow millennials, should understand and adopt. 7 00:00:15,760 --> 00:00:17,720 In this episode, I'm joined by Mickey Koss. 8 00:00:17,720 --> 00:00:21,240 He's a Special Operations Forces veteran and West Point graduate 9 00:00:21,240 --> 00:00:23,960 who currently works at the Finance Corps of the US Army. 10 00:00:24,320 --> 00:00:27,160 After falling deep down the rabbit hole of Bitcoin in early 11 00:00:27,160 --> 00:00:30,160 2020, he started writing about Bitcoin as a proof of work 12 00:00:30,160 --> 00:00:32,920 project. He currently has published over 13 00:00:32,920 --> 00:00:35,920 80 articles on Bitcoin and outlets like Forbes, Bitcoin 14 00:00:35,920 --> 00:00:40,120 Magazine, and Bitcoin news.com. I'm happy that he's here. 15 00:00:40,120 --> 00:00:41,760 Welcome man. Yeah. 16 00:00:41,760 --> 00:00:44,000 Thanks for having me. Yeah. 17 00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:47,680 Thanks for coming on. I, as I told you before like I I 18 00:00:47,680 --> 00:00:50,520 read some of your articles and I I think it's really cool that 19 00:00:51,880 --> 00:00:56,880 you know like you're in a in a normal job serving and alongside 20 00:00:56,880 --> 00:01:01,160 you're you're setting your foot into you know the Bitcoin space 21 00:01:01,160 --> 00:01:04,680 which I think is really cool especially with your writing. 22 00:01:04,680 --> 00:01:08,200 So I thought it would be fun to to invite you and and have a jam 23 00:01:08,200 --> 00:01:10,400 on Bitcoin. But I I first wanted to check 24 00:01:10,400 --> 00:01:12,080 like which generation do you belong to? 25 00:01:13,920 --> 00:01:17,400 I guess I'm a millennial was born in early 90s. 26 00:01:17,520 --> 00:01:21,400 So I think I'm I think I'm kind of in the middle or tail end of 27 00:01:21,400 --> 00:01:23,480 millennials. I think you're on the edge 28 00:01:23,480 --> 00:01:26,120 actually like I'd I also it's called Bitcoin for millennials 29 00:01:26,120 --> 00:01:29,720 but I forgot which which years those are. 30 00:01:29,720 --> 00:01:32,280 I think, I think you're on the tail end actually. 31 00:01:32,480 --> 00:01:36,400 Yeah, 96 is is the is the last year. 32 00:01:36,640 --> 00:01:40,920 So what's your experience of helping our generation 33 00:01:40,920 --> 00:01:44,080 understand Bitcoin? Do you find it as hard as I do 34 00:01:44,080 --> 00:01:47,320 sometimes? Yeah, I think there's a lot of 35 00:01:47,320 --> 00:01:49,680 apathy, right. And so you, you know, you had 36 00:01:49,680 --> 00:01:52,840 the things in OA like Occupy Wall Street, and everyone sort 37 00:01:52,840 --> 00:01:55,880 of wants to protest everything, but nobody wants to really take 38 00:01:55,880 --> 00:01:59,680 action and do anything of a sort of substance, right? 39 00:01:59,680 --> 00:02:03,640 So, you know, you go sit on Wall Street and you yell about things 40 00:02:03,640 --> 00:02:06,240 for what, a week or two? And then it sort of evaporates 41 00:02:06,240 --> 00:02:08,600 and nothing happens. Nothing changes but. 42 00:02:09,600 --> 00:02:13,960 Bitcoin is a protest, but it's a peaceful protest because you're 43 00:02:13,960 --> 00:02:17,120 just sort of defunding the system that you find 44 00:02:17,400 --> 00:02:21,480 unconscionable or or corrupt and and then you're holding your 45 00:02:21,480 --> 00:02:23,320 money in a way that can't be devalued. 46 00:02:23,320 --> 00:02:26,560 And so it's it's beneficial to you financially and it also 47 00:02:26,560 --> 00:02:29,880 pulls money from the system that you you claim to despise. 48 00:02:31,000 --> 00:02:34,720 Yeah, it's funny right? Like what I love about bit about 49 00:02:34,720 --> 00:02:36,800 Bitcoin and and doing the work right. 50 00:02:36,800 --> 00:02:39,840 Like you cannot only talk anymore you have to walk the 51 00:02:39,840 --> 00:02:42,960 walk, right. And as you illustrate here, I 52 00:02:42,960 --> 00:02:45,840 think Bitcoin is the perfect example of actually walking, 53 00:02:46,200 --> 00:02:49,480 walking the walk. Last week I recorded with with 54 00:02:49,480 --> 00:02:54,240 Jeff Booth and I asked him like okay, how do you think Bitcoin 55 00:02:54,240 --> 00:02:56,680 is going to develop, etc. Like what does the future look 56 00:02:56,680 --> 00:02:58,400 like? And he said, well, the future is 57 00:02:58,400 --> 00:03:00,480 actually now. Like, you can do the thing right 58 00:03:00,480 --> 00:03:05,480 now, you know, like you can move away from the broken system that 59 00:03:05,720 --> 00:03:07,600 we all know is broken. Right. 60 00:03:07,600 --> 00:03:10,320 And some people are just not really ready to accept it yet. 61 00:03:10,320 --> 00:03:12,360 But you can do that. You can do this now. 62 00:03:12,440 --> 00:03:16,640 You don't really have to wait. Like there's actually a door to 63 00:03:16,640 --> 00:03:19,360 the to the other side. So yeah, I love that. 64 00:03:19,360 --> 00:03:22,440 I love that you say that too, because I, I, I didn't really 65 00:03:22,440 --> 00:03:24,400 think about that, about it like that before. 66 00:03:24,400 --> 00:03:28,600 But it's, I think more because, yeah, I've just been in Bitcoin 67 00:03:28,600 --> 00:03:34,760 for so long that. Yeah, I don't really, yeah think 68 00:03:34,760 --> 00:03:36,320 like that anymore. But I think it's it's really 69 00:03:36,320 --> 00:03:39,880 important like I I saw you went down the rabbit hole in 2020, 70 00:03:40,440 --> 00:03:44,680 like early 2020. I think you then got it really 71 00:03:44,680 --> 00:03:49,440 quickly to be honest. You know, it's taken me years. 72 00:03:49,440 --> 00:03:53,040 I think it's a lot of people that takes takes longer than 73 00:03:53,880 --> 00:03:57,160 than you did. Like what what what was that 74 00:03:57,160 --> 00:03:58,880 experience like going down that rabbit hole? 75 00:03:58,880 --> 00:04:01,120 Like can you describe what what that means for you? 76 00:04:02,400 --> 00:04:05,880 Yeah. So it it started out I was I was 77 00:04:05,880 --> 00:04:09,160 a commander at Fort Hood and one of my soldiers told me about 78 00:04:09,160 --> 00:04:11,800 mining and so I started diving in. 79 00:04:13,160 --> 00:04:14,880 He he was actually mining Ethereum. 80 00:04:14,880 --> 00:04:17,079 But none of that stuff made any sense to me. 81 00:04:17,079 --> 00:04:20,560 But but Bitcoin did. And so I I sort of went down the 82 00:04:20,560 --> 00:04:25,000 rabbit hole pitched my wife was like, hey, we should buy a 83 00:04:25,000 --> 00:04:28,880 Bitcoin miner. She's like, no, what the fuck 84 00:04:29,320 --> 00:04:32,560 no. So I I went down deeper, dove a 85 00:04:32,560 --> 00:04:36,240 little deeper, and I was finally able to to convince her to let 86 00:04:36,240 --> 00:04:40,280 me buy this. You know, we bought it together. 87 00:04:40,560 --> 00:04:42,160 Partners, right. Equal partners. 88 00:04:44,360 --> 00:04:46,600 It's yeah. And so it started as as sort of 89 00:04:46,600 --> 00:04:49,080 like this Cool. Like, OK, I can buy a computer 90 00:04:49,080 --> 00:04:52,200 and just make money from it. It's sort of like real estate, 91 00:04:52,200 --> 00:04:57,000 but a but a lower entry point. And then and then COVID 92 00:04:57,000 --> 00:04:59,160 happened. Bitcoin crashed from like 8 to 93 00:04:59,160 --> 00:05:01,400 3000. You know it was it was kind of 94 00:05:01,400 --> 00:05:06,560 scary because we had just started buying and then the 95 00:05:06,560 --> 00:05:08,720 government started passing trillion dollar stimulus 96 00:05:08,720 --> 00:05:11,920 packages. And so I I learned really quick 97 00:05:11,920 --> 00:05:16,480 but it but it was sort of it was sort of like a like a nihilistic 98 00:05:16,480 --> 00:05:20,880 approach at first almost where where I'm like you know like I I 99 00:05:20,880 --> 00:05:24,120 get Bitcoin and I understand that it's going to go up a lot. 100 00:05:24,560 --> 00:05:27,960 So if we just ape into it now, we can sell it when it goes up 101 00:05:28,160 --> 00:05:31,440 10 or 100 X and you know Fast forward net worth a couple 102 00:05:31,440 --> 00:05:37,520 decades and but but the deeper you go, you know, you sort of 103 00:05:37,520 --> 00:05:40,880 get that conviction where the price doesn't even really matter 104 00:05:40,880 --> 00:05:42,520 anymore. You just need more Bitcoin. 105 00:05:42,680 --> 00:05:46,000 And so when when I saw that pump, I think it was last week 106 00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:48,880 with the ETF fake news, I felt sick. 107 00:05:48,880 --> 00:05:51,000 You know, I was like, oh, I don't have enough. 108 00:05:52,400 --> 00:05:53,920 You know you never have enough. You're like. 109 00:05:54,320 --> 00:05:56,400 Like, everyone's freaking out. Like, yeah, Bitcoin is going to 110 00:05:56,400 --> 00:05:57,720 win. I'm like, no, stop. 111 00:05:57,800 --> 00:06:00,040 I need it. I need it to, like, stay in this 112 00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:01,920 range for just a little bit longer. 113 00:06:02,040 --> 00:06:05,200 I need to reach this goal. But it's an interesting 114 00:06:05,280 --> 00:06:08,720 dichotomy of I'm right and damn or something. 115 00:06:08,960 --> 00:06:11,680 Yeah, at the same time. Yeah, it is. 116 00:06:11,920 --> 00:06:14,560 It's it's like you're happy when it's going up, but you're also 117 00:06:14,560 --> 00:06:18,600 like, shit, I wish I had more. But it's it's great because it's 118 00:06:18,600 --> 00:06:22,920 like it's this self reinforcing, positive feedback loop of 119 00:06:22,920 --> 00:06:26,040 incentives, right? And so, so OK, you want to 120 00:06:26,040 --> 00:06:28,520 protest the system, you put your money into Bitcoin, well you're 121 00:06:28,520 --> 00:06:31,080 going to make a shit load of money if you can hold on to it. 122 00:06:31,480 --> 00:06:34,640 And so it's it's beneficial. It's a beneficial, productive 123 00:06:34,640 --> 00:06:38,880 protest. And so when you say like the the 124 00:06:39,320 --> 00:06:42,960 the first angle was kind of nihilistic as in you know number 125 00:06:42,960 --> 00:06:49,000 go up we get we we we get rich. So what what was it that made 126 00:06:49,000 --> 00:06:52,760 you like not not see the other stuff at that point. 127 00:06:52,760 --> 00:06:57,360 So just learning as you go or like where there are certain 128 00:06:57,360 --> 00:06:59,640 beliefs that that you held on to. 129 00:07:01,240 --> 00:07:03,040 I mean number go up is still important. 130 00:07:03,040 --> 00:07:05,800 It's it's, I mean it's the best marketing tool we have, right? 131 00:07:08,520 --> 00:07:12,320 But I think. There's there's two, there's two 132 00:07:12,320 --> 00:07:14,800 things that come to mind which which sort of helped me dive 133 00:07:14,800 --> 00:07:18,160 deeper into like societal implications and why Bitcoin is 134 00:07:18,160 --> 00:07:21,600 so important. And so first one I remember 135 00:07:21,760 --> 00:07:26,080 vividly is hearing Brandon Quidom's pioneer species thesis 136 00:07:26,080 --> 00:07:29,480 and how Bitcoin is monetizing energy at the source and 137 00:07:29,480 --> 00:07:33,320 incentivizing infrastructure development in the third world. 138 00:07:33,360 --> 00:07:35,280 And so, like, that is super cool, right? 139 00:07:35,960 --> 00:07:39,000 And and theoretically, you know, and I've written articles 140 00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:41,880 recently where where you have Bitcoin miners stepping in in 141 00:07:41,880 --> 00:07:47,480 Canada, in the United States to revitalize areas of of the Rust 142 00:07:47,480 --> 00:07:50,440 Belt where globalization took away the manufacturing. 143 00:07:50,440 --> 00:07:53,840 So now you have high unemployment in areas with too 144 00:07:53,840 --> 00:07:56,520 much power. And so, you know, those energy 145 00:07:56,520 --> 00:07:59,600 companies have to constantly raise prices on population that 146 00:07:59,600 --> 00:08:01,600 can already barely afford to get by. 147 00:08:02,320 --> 00:08:05,160 Yeah, so it's like societal implications like that. 148 00:08:05,160 --> 00:08:10,720 And then just just Bitcoin fixing everything, right? 149 00:08:10,720 --> 00:08:14,320 And so just tying back all of the problems to monetary 150 00:08:14,320 --> 00:08:21,680 debasement, Greg Foss's bond math and debt spiral concept, 151 00:08:21,840 --> 00:08:24,160 you know, where it's like, OK, well. 152 00:08:25,320 --> 00:08:27,400 If if you type it like, how often do you think about the 153 00:08:27,400 --> 00:08:29,000 Roman Empire, You know what I mean? 154 00:08:29,000 --> 00:08:33,120 Like that that means where it's like, OK, as as the Roman Empire 155 00:08:33,120 --> 00:08:36,440 debase their currency further and further society sort of fell 156 00:08:36,440 --> 00:08:40,720 apart because you know, you're devaluing human time and you're 157 00:08:40,720 --> 00:08:43,000 breaking people's realities, right? 158 00:08:43,039 --> 00:08:48,320 And so, so they can no longer sort of predict or plan for the 159 00:08:48,320 --> 00:08:54,760 future and and and it just sort of destroys the soul of society. 160 00:08:55,800 --> 00:08:58,600 And if we can't, if we can't print money anymore, then then 161 00:08:58,600 --> 00:09:03,160 maybe we could preserve that or fix that or or at least hold it 162 00:09:03,160 --> 00:09:06,520 off for a bit longer. I think. 163 00:09:06,560 --> 00:09:10,840 I think that's already like a pretty deep thing that you went 164 00:09:10,840 --> 00:09:13,200 to pretty quickly. But I think this is like, 165 00:09:14,280 --> 00:09:16,520 especially one of the things when you really go down the 166 00:09:16,520 --> 00:09:18,560 rabbit hole. I loved, like the whole notion 167 00:09:18,560 --> 00:09:21,040 of once you see it, you cannot Unsee it, right? 168 00:09:21,040 --> 00:09:26,600 Like there's no one, I've not seen anyone who like saw Bitcoin 169 00:09:26,600 --> 00:09:28,240 and then was like no, never mind. 170 00:09:28,240 --> 00:09:31,520 Like this is, this is just not a thing. 171 00:09:33,400 --> 00:09:35,720 But like the route you're taking, I also find very 172 00:09:35,720 --> 00:09:39,320 interesting especially, you know I think it's it's safe. 173 00:09:39,320 --> 00:09:43,240 Tina Moose who talks about, you know, long time preference and 174 00:09:43,240 --> 00:09:47,280 short time preference and that that's the long time preference 175 00:09:47,280 --> 00:09:50,200 is basically stolen from us, especially if you combine it 176 00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:52,120 with, you know, like all the depth in America. 177 00:09:52,120 --> 00:09:54,680 If you look at the US debt clock, you see that when you are 178 00:09:54,680 --> 00:09:59,880 born, you already have $100,000 in depth, which is not something 179 00:09:59,880 --> 00:10:03,280 you have to pay, but actually something that is also stolen 180 00:10:03,280 --> 00:10:06,040 from you in a sense, right? Like it's it's money taken from 181 00:10:06,040 --> 00:10:09,200 the future that that you can no longer have. 182 00:10:09,200 --> 00:10:15,120 So, so even when you're born now you will have a task of building 183 00:10:16,200 --> 00:10:20,200 or getting that that, that, that value or that wealth back in a 184 00:10:20,200 --> 00:10:22,280 sense. But you are totally, you know, 185 00:10:22,320 --> 00:10:23,840 the system is working against you. 186 00:10:23,840 --> 00:10:26,800 So that's why a lot of people are buying stupid stuff and have 187 00:10:26,800 --> 00:10:29,320 this short time preference basically. 188 00:10:29,320 --> 00:10:32,280 And then when he talks about, well, when people can actually 189 00:10:32,280 --> 00:10:35,680 save their wealth in in time and space right, they can have this 190 00:10:35,680 --> 00:10:39,600 long time preference which that's the thesis then. 191 00:10:39,600 --> 00:10:41,680 Right. Which leads to more prosperity 192 00:10:41,680 --> 00:10:45,280 and peace and collaboration and freedom and and and all these 193 00:10:45,280 --> 00:10:49,080 things is is that what you also mean when you talk about this? 194 00:10:53,160 --> 00:10:55,920 Yeah, yeah. And I mean that really appealed 195 00:10:55,920 --> 00:10:59,800 to me at the start. So I I I studied economics in in 196 00:10:59,800 --> 00:11:03,480 college and you know we had a little bit of discussion between 197 00:11:04,120 --> 00:11:08,880 Keynesian and Austrian schools. But but it was it was mostly 198 00:11:08,880 --> 00:11:11,320 Keynesian right? And and they would say, OK, 199 00:11:11,400 --> 00:11:15,200 well, risk free interest rate. How is it risk free? 200 00:11:15,200 --> 00:11:17,120 Because the government could default, right? 201 00:11:17,120 --> 00:11:19,160 Isn't that a risk? And they say, well no, they can 202 00:11:19,160 --> 00:11:21,480 just print money. And I was kind of like, what the 203 00:11:21,480 --> 00:11:23,080 fuck are you talking about? Risk money. 204 00:11:23,680 --> 00:11:26,040 Like, isn't that Isn't that like, stealing? 205 00:11:26,040 --> 00:11:28,440 Isn't that terrible? Like, won't printing money like 206 00:11:28,440 --> 00:11:30,200 cause inflation? And they're like, now there's 207 00:11:30,200 --> 00:11:32,240 too much demand for dollars. It'll be fine. 208 00:11:32,240 --> 00:11:33,800 We'll never get inflation. And it's like. 209 00:11:34,760 --> 00:11:36,440 Like, that was kind of the first crack, right? 210 00:11:36,440 --> 00:11:38,800 Like you're going through microeconomics and you're doing 211 00:11:38,800 --> 00:11:41,640 all these, like, calculus calculations with these stupid 212 00:11:41,640 --> 00:11:44,520 equations and you're like, OK, I can do the math. 213 00:11:44,520 --> 00:11:47,120 But like, where the hell do these equations even come from? 214 00:11:47,280 --> 00:11:50,000 Like, you're just estimating things or you're guessing things 215 00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:52,880 or you're just making things up So I can solve a math problem 216 00:11:53,560 --> 00:11:57,760 and it it just, so much of it is just manufactured, right? 217 00:11:58,400 --> 00:12:02,400 And that that's that's I find difficult that when when people 218 00:12:02,400 --> 00:12:05,520 talk about the economy or the the beast of inflation and blah 219 00:12:05,520 --> 00:12:09,480 blah, like it's coming from something else than another 220 00:12:09,480 --> 00:12:12,640 human's mind basically, right. Like it's an engineered system 221 00:12:12,640 --> 00:12:17,720 and you're and they are also yeah discharging the flaws 222 00:12:17,720 --> 00:12:20,320 basically you know like if something like as you mentioned 223 00:12:20,320 --> 00:12:24,040 if you if you ask that then it's almost like a childish answer 224 00:12:24,240 --> 00:12:27,720 right. Where in another another day in 225 00:12:27,720 --> 00:12:30,720 this study as you mentioned you are doing like crazy 226 00:12:31,400 --> 00:12:35,640 calculations, but this answer to that very fundamental question 227 00:12:36,560 --> 00:12:40,280 is over simplistic almost like yeah, don't worry about that or 228 00:12:40,280 --> 00:12:43,720 something, yeah, yeah that's also expense, it's so crazy. 229 00:12:45,480 --> 00:12:48,400 And so, I mean, yeah, sorry. Yeah, sorry. 230 00:12:49,240 --> 00:12:53,920 I guess economics is just, it's it's just exercise in logical 231 00:12:53,920 --> 00:12:55,880 thinking, right. But they try to turn it into a 232 00:12:55,880 --> 00:12:59,520 science, and they use the science to justify policies. 233 00:13:00,240 --> 00:13:03,240 That that sort of empower them to make these these God like 234 00:13:03,240 --> 00:13:06,080 decisions. And so in making these God like 235 00:13:06,080 --> 00:13:09,720 decisions and in devaluing the currency, debasing the currency, 236 00:13:10,040 --> 00:13:16,480 you you are devaluing the value of human time and effort and you 237 00:13:16,480 --> 00:13:19,640 are lowering everyone's time preference to where we you know 238 00:13:19,640 --> 00:13:21,400 the like. The stock market trades off of 239 00:13:21,400 --> 00:13:23,040 one thing now, right? It's like. 240 00:13:24,160 --> 00:13:26,640 It's like, is the Fed going to print more money or not? 241 00:13:26,640 --> 00:13:29,520 It's it's just it's us all one trade because everything has 242 00:13:29,520 --> 00:13:32,400 become so financialized. There's so much moral hazard 243 00:13:32,400 --> 00:13:36,040 built into the system that it's all just one big trade. 244 00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:39,480 Yeah, and constantly also, right? 245 00:13:39,480 --> 00:13:45,160 Like as you mentioned, like every every Fed meeting or every 246 00:13:45,160 --> 00:13:47,120 announcement, every publication or whatever. 247 00:13:47,120 --> 00:13:51,400 Like you have to constantly pay attention to what is happening 248 00:13:51,400 --> 00:13:56,640 with the wealth that you have. And I for me that's like very 249 00:13:56,960 --> 00:13:59,640 feels very risky, right? Like I love that. 250 00:13:59,960 --> 00:14:02,360 I love, I love that thought about that. 251 00:14:02,560 --> 00:14:07,680 I don't know who mentioned that. I think it's maybe it was Luke 252 00:14:07,680 --> 00:14:11,600 Broyles, but he said like, OK, so you have a job or a venture 253 00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:16,240 and you take risk, right? Because you choose to do that 254 00:14:16,240 --> 00:14:19,680 job or that venture, but then when you're home your life is 255 00:14:19,680 --> 00:14:23,040 still influenced by people you don't know and they're basically 256 00:14:23,040 --> 00:14:28,840 forcing you to take more risk to mitigate the rules and and the 257 00:14:28,840 --> 00:14:31,320 decisions that that they basically make, right. 258 00:14:31,320 --> 00:14:36,680 So it's actually very life in general is made more risky and 259 00:14:36,680 --> 00:14:41,160 that's why I personally am into Bitcoin because I don't like 260 00:14:41,160 --> 00:14:44,600 taking that risk right. Like I see Bitcoin as a non risk 261 00:14:45,280 --> 00:14:50,560 solution to at least trying to protect my wealth, right? 262 00:14:50,560 --> 00:14:53,720 And I think a lot of people are not aware of the fact that they 263 00:14:53,720 --> 00:14:57,120 are a risk manager next to their job or venture basically. 264 00:14:57,800 --> 00:15:01,120 Yeah. So the constant devaluation of 265 00:15:01,120 --> 00:15:04,920 money makes everyone have to sort of turn into a part time. 266 00:15:06,640 --> 00:15:10,600 Professional investor in order to just protect themselves and 267 00:15:10,600 --> 00:15:12,320 and be able to live their lives, right. 268 00:15:12,320 --> 00:15:17,520 And so I save in Bitcoin because I'm lazy and risk averse. 269 00:15:17,880 --> 00:15:21,840 I don't, I don't want to save my money in in a bunch of stuff 270 00:15:21,840 --> 00:15:25,080 with with all this, you know, counterparty risk and and 271 00:15:25,360 --> 00:15:28,680 debasement, it's like, OK you invest in this company, the Fed 272 00:15:28,680 --> 00:15:32,040 decides to hike interest rates 300% and then the company's out 273 00:15:32,040 --> 00:15:33,360 of business. You know what I mean? 274 00:15:33,720 --> 00:15:35,400 Yeah. And so they, they, these 275 00:15:35,400 --> 00:15:38,640 companies can't even plan, you know, several years in advance 276 00:15:38,640 --> 00:15:41,200 because they have no idea where interest rates are going to be. 277 00:15:41,960 --> 00:15:44,320 Yeah. So when you say I'm, I'm lazy 278 00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:46,880 and I don't want to take that risk, like, I have the same. 279 00:15:46,880 --> 00:15:49,520 And then I immediately think, like, this should be perfect for 280 00:15:50,160 --> 00:15:53,000 any human, right? Because humans are lazy. 281 00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:57,560 But I think nowadays it's kind of like, I'm lazy but I also 282 00:15:57,560 --> 00:15:59,880 want to become rich quickly, right. 283 00:16:00,800 --> 00:16:05,880 And and so that's kind of how our society is now now shaped. 284 00:16:05,880 --> 00:16:11,000 I think people have the wrong I yeah, the wrong beliefs about 285 00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:12,560 money. Like how, how do you see that? 286 00:16:12,560 --> 00:16:15,440 Like how how those beliefs shape, shape the current 287 00:16:15,440 --> 00:16:19,560 society. Yeah, I think it ties back into 288 00:16:19,560 --> 00:16:22,880 that currency debasement, right. And so I mean one of the reasons 289 00:16:22,880 --> 00:16:26,160 why people are so into crypto and is like the same reason so 290 00:16:26,160 --> 00:16:29,520 many people buy lottery tickets and and gamble right is. 291 00:16:31,040 --> 00:16:35,400 Is is everyone is struggling and and it's becoming harder and 292 00:16:35,400 --> 00:16:39,480 harder for the government and and and institutions to hide the 293 00:16:39,480 --> 00:16:42,760 fact that that inflation is sort of running away from us right. 294 00:16:43,200 --> 00:16:46,560 The currency debasement has has gone too far but they're going 295 00:16:46,560 --> 00:16:49,520 to have to take it even further And so people are feeling the 296 00:16:49,520 --> 00:16:54,280 pain and and and they're not really sure why or what's going 297 00:16:54,280 --> 00:16:57,920 on but it's causing this sort of societal. 298 00:16:58,840 --> 00:17:01,200 Nihilism. I guess that that attracts 299 00:17:01,200 --> 00:17:04,800 people into these get get rich quick schemes like like crypto, 300 00:17:04,800 --> 00:17:07,640 like gambling and like like lottery tickets. 301 00:17:07,839 --> 00:17:11,680 And because I I think a lot of people feel helpless. 302 00:17:11,680 --> 00:17:15,119 You know, they've like I, I I know some people that have saved 303 00:17:15,119 --> 00:17:18,599 for years to try to get a house. But you know fed prints, money, 304 00:17:18,599 --> 00:17:21,560 house prices go up 30%. It's like wait, what are you 305 00:17:21,560 --> 00:17:23,599 supposed to do? You know your savings are 306 00:17:23,599 --> 00:17:26,520 getting devalued. Every couple years in these, in 307 00:17:26,520 --> 00:17:29,360 these accelerating cycles of currency debasement. 308 00:17:30,600 --> 00:17:33,200 Yeah. And So what for you like, like 309 00:17:34,120 --> 00:17:37,200 what I like when I talk to bit corners, like you instantly kind 310 00:17:37,200 --> 00:17:41,160 of touch up on all these different dimensions that you 311 00:17:41,160 --> 00:17:44,920 obviously come across, right when you go down, go down the 312 00:17:44,920 --> 00:17:47,520 rabbit hole. What was like the thing that 313 00:17:47,520 --> 00:17:51,600 actually made you see it? Like what dimension for you was 314 00:17:51,600 --> 00:17:55,720 like, OK, you know you started obviously with with the mining, 315 00:17:56,120 --> 00:17:59,680 was it then the money printing in in COVID when where you 316 00:17:59,680 --> 00:18:06,720 really saw it? Yeah, I I think it was a 317 00:18:06,720 --> 00:18:11,080 combination of of like the COVID restrictions and in the money 318 00:18:11,080 --> 00:18:17,640 printing simultaneously where you know blanket decision was 319 00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:22,240 you know economies, businesses were destroyed across the entire 320 00:18:22,240 --> 00:18:25,840 world. And the government just printed 321 00:18:25,840 --> 00:18:30,280 money to to sort of stem the bleeding, you know what I mean? 322 00:18:30,280 --> 00:18:32,760 But but not everybody made it out, OK. 323 00:18:32,760 --> 00:18:35,600 And so we were in sort of like this, this quasi Great 324 00:18:35,600 --> 00:18:38,720 Depression scenario, but the stock market is is just 325 00:18:38,720 --> 00:18:42,320 screaming hot and it's just because of the money printing. 326 00:18:42,800 --> 00:18:48,360 And so that that happened not not that long after I got into 327 00:18:48,360 --> 00:18:50,920 it and it really just sort of solidified. 328 00:18:51,680 --> 00:18:57,800 My conviction in Bitcoin and and sort of precipitated this this 329 00:18:57,800 --> 00:19:03,160 shift in perspective from Bitcoin being like the get rich 330 00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:08,200 quick scheme like I like I had kind of initially characterized 331 00:19:08,200 --> 00:19:16,360 it at but but to a not get poor slowly scheme and so do you see 332 00:19:16,360 --> 00:19:22,720 Bitcoin as as a technology just technology are also it's like 333 00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:28,000 like a philosophy you know like I I like the idea of well kind 334 00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:30,960 of the contradiction of what we just mentioned like if you're 335 00:19:30,960 --> 00:19:34,840 lazy you should actually Bitcoin but it's not a get rich quick 336 00:19:34,840 --> 00:19:39,200 thing you like you have it's very challenging right and you 337 00:19:39,360 --> 00:19:43,080 challenge your personal beliefs and your time preference and all 338 00:19:43,080 --> 00:19:45,440 these things. So how how do you see it? 339 00:19:45,440 --> 00:19:49,360 Like as a technology or also also like that philosophical 340 00:19:49,720 --> 00:19:52,240 part? I I think it's sort of the merge 341 00:19:52,240 --> 00:19:55,400 of both, right? If if you only view Bitcoin as a 342 00:19:55,400 --> 00:19:58,120 technology, you're missing the point entirely. 343 00:19:58,440 --> 00:20:02,560 I, you know, I had AI had this wealth manager in Canada reach 344 00:20:02,560 --> 00:20:06,040 out to me who who wanted to talk about Bitcoin and he was going 345 00:20:06,040 --> 00:20:08,520 to, you know, pay me to do some consulting with them. 346 00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:12,920 But when I got on the phone, he wanted to talk about, you know. 347 00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:19,000 Blockchain logistics with like you know, globally shipping 348 00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:23,040 industries and stuff. And I'm like, dude, you are so 349 00:20:23,040 --> 00:20:25,840 far off, like you don't even understand. 350 00:20:26,240 --> 00:20:30,240 And so like the the technology is, is just a piece of it, 351 00:20:30,240 --> 00:20:32,520 right? The technology is not new but 352 00:20:32,520 --> 00:20:34,960 the combination of the technologies that make up 353 00:20:34,960 --> 00:20:37,000 Bitcoin is what makes it strong, right? 354 00:20:38,800 --> 00:20:43,520 At the same time is is yes, it it is a philosophy as well of of 355 00:20:43,800 --> 00:20:47,840 you know upholding individual rights and freedoms and and 356 00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:55,440 making sure that individual value is is sort of preserved in 357 00:20:55,440 --> 00:21:00,360 the face of growing global authoritarianism and and 358 00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:05,320 increasingly volatile monetary policies. 359 00:21:05,400 --> 00:21:09,760 And I I guess you can't in in my view is is you can't, you can't 360 00:21:09,760 --> 00:21:13,880 take Bitcoin as just a technology. 361 00:21:13,960 --> 00:21:17,320 But you I think I think to like truly grasp it you need to dive 362 00:21:17,320 --> 00:21:19,320 into the philosophical side as well. 363 00:21:19,320 --> 00:21:23,360 Because if if you don't understand why printing money is 364 00:21:23,360 --> 00:21:29,360 is sort of immoral, then then you're never truly going to 365 00:21:29,360 --> 00:21:32,560 grasp Bitcoin. Yeah. 366 00:21:34,440 --> 00:21:37,720 I think that's also like one of the things that I encounter a 367 00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:43,120 lot that just that one thing you just said about, you know, 368 00:21:43,120 --> 00:21:51,480 printing money is immoral and changes a lot, changes your 369 00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:55,320 situation, even while you're doing the right thing or you're 370 00:21:55,320 --> 00:21:58,240 saving for a house, etcetera. You know you're still confronted 371 00:21:58,240 --> 00:22:04,080 with these with this external. How do you say that, like 372 00:22:04,280 --> 00:22:09,200 external influence into your life that, well will never stop. 373 00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:12,000 We'll always be there. But you have never thought about 374 00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:15,880 it, right? What What does that say about 375 00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:19,480 the concept of trust? You know, I I love how Bitcoin 376 00:22:19,480 --> 00:22:24,480 is super transparent. And you know, as I said before, 377 00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:27,360 like you have to walk the walk. You cannot just talk. 378 00:22:27,360 --> 00:22:29,480 You have to walk. You have to walk the talk. 379 00:22:30,760 --> 00:22:33,600 What does it say about our current concept of trust if 380 00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:40,400 people are not even shocked by the morality of of this money 381 00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:43,520 printing? I mean, I I think, I think 382 00:22:43,520 --> 00:22:46,480 they've just been conditioned to accept it. 383 00:22:47,240 --> 00:22:48,920 They don't. They don't really think about 384 00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:52,400 it. And so I I I do think it's 385 00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:55,080 gotten to the point where a lot of people are starting to wake 386 00:22:55,080 --> 00:22:59,640 up because, you know, everyone feels like something's wrong and 387 00:22:59,640 --> 00:23:01,600 they can't really put their finger on it. 388 00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:05,200 You know you see those pictures or not pictures, But but if you 389 00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:08,960 see videos from like TikTok on Twitter pretty frequently. 390 00:23:08,960 --> 00:23:10,440 The groceries and stuff. Yeah. 391 00:23:10,680 --> 00:23:13,480 Yeah, like the groceries, you know, the women crying, like, I 392 00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:15,840 can't afford rent. I can't afford this. 393 00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:18,040 Like, how am I? I, you know, I live. 394 00:23:18,080 --> 00:23:20,160 I can't afford to live in the city I work in. 395 00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:23,640 So my I commute for three hours a day and I have no life. 396 00:23:24,320 --> 00:23:29,880 You know it's it's just it's it's the cantillion effect. 397 00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:32,240 It's inflation. It's it's the money printing, 398 00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:35,440 you know and it's just it's devaluing everything and and 399 00:23:35,440 --> 00:23:39,240 people are are I think they're starting to wake up to it but 400 00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:41,120 but a lot of people are still resistant. 401 00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:48,040 Yeah, I find it. There's so, so many paradoxes 402 00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:54,520 right in the current state where this is also kind of laziness in 403 00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:57,120 a sense, right? Where you think like. 404 00:23:57,720 --> 00:24:00,360 And and also if I speak for myself, like I've said this 405 00:24:00,360 --> 00:24:04,200 multiple times on this podcast, like I I think as a millennial 406 00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:08,360 in the Western world, I think we grew up in the best time to ever 407 00:24:08,360 --> 00:24:11,600 grow up from any person, whoever lived, right. 408 00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:14,680 And things were just there. They were done for you. 409 00:24:15,360 --> 00:24:17,960 Everything always worked. Electricity, water, housing, 410 00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:21,120 like all all these things. Like they're the whole concept 411 00:24:21,120 --> 00:24:26,000 of no one is coming to save you. We didn't really learn, at least 412 00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:30,960 if I talk for myself, right? And so I think it's the video 413 00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:33,600 you talked about about the commuting, Is that is that the 414 00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:36,720 one that went like viral today where the girl talks about, you 415 00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:38,600 know, this nine to five, I cannot do it. 416 00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:41,440 I don't know if you saw that one today, but it's like she says 417 00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:44,160 the exact same thing, like I commute for 90 minutes because I 418 00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:46,080 cannot afford to live in the city, etc. 419 00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:49,400 And you know. You almost see that realization 420 00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:51,880 of them like, this is not arranged for me. 421 00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:57,400 I have AI have a very big, I have a very big problem. 422 00:24:57,400 --> 00:25:00,800 And I kind of recognized that laziness in there. 423 00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:04,480 Not it's not laziness on purpose, but it's just kind of, 424 00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:09,240 yeah, it's being unaware almost right. 425 00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:12,600 I I actually also saw a video today of a woman who was like 426 00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:16,040 protesting and talking about. I also cannot find a house and I 427 00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:17,560 have like study depth and blah blah. 428 00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:21,200 And then there was this guy on TikTok who then went to her 429 00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:26,840 Instagram and then she just went to Bali and like another place 430 00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:30,720 and taking photos for likes on Instagram etcetera. 431 00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:32,680 So like what? Like what do you want? 432 00:25:32,760 --> 00:25:35,520 You know, do you have a problem or not? 433 00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:38,320 Like you cannot consume on one side and then complain on the 434 00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:39,160 other side. Right. 435 00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:43,160 And I. It's not really a question in 436 00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:44,680 there. It's like more reflection of 437 00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:48,560 where it's so confusing. It's so paradoxical. 438 00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:56,160 Yeah, How people operate right now, if I've heard millennials 439 00:25:56,200 --> 00:26:00,960 value experience experiences more than a lot of things. 440 00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:08,160 And so I I I think deep down. A lot of millennials are deeply 441 00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:14,280 nihilistic and so they they spend money on on experiences 442 00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:19,280 like travel and stuff like that while they're young because they 443 00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:22,320 figure if they save and invest it's not going to matter 444 00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:24,880 anyways. You know like we you always hear 445 00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:27,480 it's Social Security in the United States is going to run 446 00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:31,720 out by like well before you know we get to retire. 447 00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:35,960 And so I I think there's just like this, this societal malaise 448 00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:40,880 built in where where people are just, they've gotten to the 449 00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:44,680 point where they they don't even care to try anymore to a certain 450 00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:48,760 extent because because things have gotten so difficult for 451 00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:52,160 them. Yeah, but if we don't take the 452 00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:55,960 take the leap to Bitcoin, right? If we talk about Bitcoin for 453 00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:59,080 millennials, we want to help them discover Bitcoin and adopt 454 00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:05,320 it. There is a certain part into 455 00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:09,960 being into Bitcoin that that. Is about the self custody, is 456 00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:15,360 about autonomy, is about taking care of what you own, not using 457 00:27:15,360 --> 00:27:19,840 a third party to do that for you, right. 458 00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:25,200 I try to Orange Bill. My friends from time to time, 459 00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:28,920 you know like then I throw Bitcoin in again and I I asked 460 00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:31,760 them questions like OK, if you want to get 100K from the bank 461 00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:33,960 cash, do you think that's possible And then they say, well 462 00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:36,720 probably not today but maybe in two days, but it's fine, it's 463 00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:38,880 just a nuisance, right? Like they don't really see it as 464 00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:41,440 a as a problem. Where I say, well my point is 465 00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:43,680 that there's some you know there's a third party between 466 00:27:43,680 --> 00:27:46,560 you and and that and that what you own but they don't really 467 00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:48,400 see that as a problem. They think it's all good. 468 00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:51,320 Like how how, how would you approach? 469 00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:56,080 I just want to say teaching people about that autonomy part, 470 00:27:56,080 --> 00:28:01,960 like you have to be autonomous and and to become sovereign to 471 00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:05,080 actually have more freedom, right and and more choices. 472 00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:06,600 What's your what's your thought on that? 473 00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:13,560 It's it's hard. It's hard to orange peel people 474 00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:20,040 who don't care about, you know like this subject you're talking 475 00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:22,120 to right. And so if I mean if they don't 476 00:28:22,120 --> 00:28:26,760 care about autonomy it it's hard to sort of orange pillow using 477 00:28:26,760 --> 00:28:32,400 the autonomy thing I guess. I guess I'm not really sure how 478 00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:35,120 to answer this you know it's like some people don't care like 479 00:28:35,120 --> 00:28:38,360 my sister doesn't not give a shit about self custody right. 480 00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:43,320 But she has a little bit of GBTC so it's like is that is that is 481 00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:45,560 anything better than nothing right. 482 00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:51,480 And so if if someone really doesn't give a shit about the 483 00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:54,200 self custody piece, maybe try something like, you know maybe 484 00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:57,440 they care about the environment and you're like OK, well these 485 00:28:57,440 --> 00:29:00,920 miners are you know mitigating methane all over the world. 486 00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:05,600 They're sort of developing, you know energy in Africa and South 487 00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:08,080 America and like hydropower stuff like that. 488 00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:11,760 I guess there's no there's no like 1 surefire way to orange 489 00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:14,240 pill somebody. I I don't even really try 490 00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:16,520 anymore. I I just sort of let them know 491 00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:20,120 they don't like the Bitcoin dude and then you know, whatever sort 492 00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:23,160 of context that they want to ask questions in, I can help guide 493 00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:27,840 them. Yeah, yeah, I I think I'm the 494 00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:30,760 same currently. Like as I mentioned, I just try 495 00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:35,520 again right from time to time. But I kind of gave up in some 496 00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:38,040 way. Maybe they call when it's 100K 497 00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:40,920 and they'll be like, OK, what is, what is this thing? 498 00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:45,240 Maybe I need to get in, But yeah, for me that's also been. 499 00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:48,760 Kind of the struggle also along the way. 500 00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:51,120 Like, I like, I love these people, right? 501 00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:55,360 Like I want to tell them what I've discovered and what I've 502 00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:58,360 learned and what I cannot unlearn anymore and what I hope 503 00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:01,080 for them as well. But yeah, I I fully agree. 504 00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:07,320 Like they have to be open to it on one of the dimensions, right? 505 00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:11,120 To actually just pull a thread and then just, you know, start 506 00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:13,840 going down their own, their own rabbit hole in a sense. 507 00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:16,920 So who? And I also want to ask you like 508 00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:20,160 because of course you also have like an economics background and 509 00:30:20,440 --> 00:30:23,880 you learned more about the the Keynesian part and the other 510 00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:29,080 part like who who or what has been most influential to in in 511 00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:33,400 in like shaping your views on money and risk and and wealth. 512 00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:41,000 I would, I would say Greg Foss and Preston Pitch. 513 00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:44,640 I listen well I guess Greg doesn't have his own podcast but 514 00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:47,520 I've I've probably listened to everything Greg's been on and 515 00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:51,760 then Preston Pitch with you know like the macro analysis it might 516 00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:57,000 go over some people's heads but I but I find I find his his I 517 00:30:57,000 --> 00:31:02,040 guess quantitative analysis with with you know sovereign debt and 518 00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:08,080 end markets really appealing. And then I guess on the on the 519 00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:12,400 philosophical side, I've I've listened to most of Robert 520 00:31:12,560 --> 00:31:16,480 Breedlove stuff and so like those I think, I think that's a 521 00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:20,520 really interesting way to to recontextualize money in a in a 522 00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:25,760 philosophical way. Yeah, the same people for me 523 00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:29,040 actually mostly mostly Greg, like I I do not have an 524 00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:31,520 economics background or a finance background. 525 00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:35,160 Actually hope to get Craig on the on the part we've been D 526 00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:39,480 Ming so it would be would be fun like his energy is crazy but I 527 00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:44,080 like I don't have that background and he and I think 528 00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:47,320 it's only like maybe 4 podcasts or something where he's been in 529 00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:51,040 like he really triggered me to like go deeper down that 530 00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:54,720 dimension basically right. Like, I never learned anything 531 00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:56,480 about it. And and just like the past three 532 00:31:56,480 --> 00:32:00,880 years I've been going down that rabbit hole and it's just 533 00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:05,080 really. Inspiring, I think also because 534 00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:09,360 he's a bit older, like not old, but a bit older than than than 535 00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:11,200 us. And I think even the general 536 00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:15,440 like Bitcoin crowd and I think it's really cool to see that he 537 00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:18,720 spent like 3035 years in traditional finance. 538 00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:24,160 And really turned his entire head around, right, like a 180. 539 00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:26,840 And he understands where it's coming and where he's coming 540 00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:29,000 from, like what the problems are and all these things. 541 00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:30,960 And he now also sees the solution. 542 00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:35,280 So for me, that's also very admirable in a sense, right, 543 00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:41,080 Because it's really, it's really difficult to to drop beliefs 544 00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:44,600 that you think you have or or drop the things that that you 545 00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:47,320 thought you learned. And then really like going to 546 00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:48,960 the opposite direction. So yeah, cool. 547 00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:51,680 You mentioned Greg Foss, like, I I love him too. 548 00:32:52,080 --> 00:32:57,320 So and because you do again have this background, like do you do 549 00:32:57,320 --> 00:33:00,200 when you think about like how Bitcoin could change society and 550 00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:05,080 stuff like that I I I think a lot about like the current state 551 00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:09,600 of like finance and stuff like do you think capitalism is is 552 00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:13,240 like the most most ethical system we could follow? 553 00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:20,160 Or and like where we are now, Is that like the bad part of 554 00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:22,880 capitalism or is it totally not related? 555 00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:25,760 No, I don't. I don't think we're in a 556 00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:32,480 capitalist society right now. It's like, no, I don't want to 557 00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:36,880 say this out loud. So I I think I think capitalism 558 00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:44,960 is how do I say this is is is the most moral system. 559 00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:49,560 Ayn Ayn Rand. So she wrote Atlas Shrugged and 560 00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:53,760 a bunch of other stuff but she I think she does a really good job 561 00:33:53,760 --> 00:34:01,560 of of articulating like why capitalism is a is a moral is a 562 00:34:01,560 --> 00:34:06,240 moral system and it's just everybody is pursuing their own 563 00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:10,560 self-interest and and in a in a collective society, collectivist 564 00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:14,120 society you know people people like to talk about greed and 565 00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:17,440 self-interest being a bad thing. But if if the markets were 566 00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:20,360 completely free and everybody is is pursuing their own 567 00:34:20,360 --> 00:34:24,920 self-interest you know it it it makes society better that's 568 00:34:24,920 --> 00:34:29,440 that's what built America from you know this like backwoods you 569 00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:34,080 know pioneers fighting Indians and in the West to to an 570 00:34:34,080 --> 00:34:37,639 economic powerhouse right. It was capitalism in it. 571 00:34:37,639 --> 00:34:43,120 Capitalism is is sort of, I mean not not everything's going to be 572 00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:46,520 equal, right? But but a rising tide lifts all, 573 00:34:46,520 --> 00:34:50,360 all ships. And so there's there's there's 574 00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:53,480 room and capitalism to take care of the less fortunate through 575 00:34:53,480 --> 00:34:55,120 through, you know, charities and stuff. 576 00:34:55,800 --> 00:34:58,720 But if you think about it, like, why do people give to charities 577 00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:04,440 right now it's, you know, maybe a little bit because it makes 578 00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:06,440 them feel good. Well, does that mean they're 579 00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:09,320 completely altruistic or they doing it for selfish reasons 580 00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:12,200 because they want to feel good about themselves or do they want 581 00:35:12,200 --> 00:35:14,560 a giant tax write off, you know what I mean? 582 00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:18,160 And so it's just it's it's all self-interest, man, and and 583 00:35:18,160 --> 00:35:19,880 self-interest makes the world go round. 584 00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:23,520 And it and it's not a bad thing, you know, buy Bitcoin because 585 00:35:23,520 --> 00:35:26,720 you're greedy and you'll make the network more resilient and 586 00:35:26,720 --> 00:35:29,760 you'll make everyone who also buys Bitcoin better off too. 587 00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:35,400 I love that last part. So yeah, maybe. 588 00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:37,920 Maybe Bitcoin is in some way also like. 589 00:35:39,720 --> 00:35:41,240 But now it's not the perfect capitalism. 590 00:35:41,240 --> 00:35:44,440 But I do like the reinforcing as you mentioned right? 591 00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:48,680 Like it's not just for yourself it's for the for the collective 592 00:35:48,720 --> 00:35:51,800 as well. And I also I I don't really see 593 00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:56,520 like any I I agree that capitalism is the most ethical 594 00:35:56,800 --> 00:36:00,280 system you know in in concept at least. 595 00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:02,360 Right. And and I love to just simple 596 00:36:02,360 --> 00:36:05,480 examples of if we both have a bakery and my breads are better 597 00:36:05,480 --> 00:36:07,920 than more people buy my breads than your breads and then. 598 00:36:08,440 --> 00:36:11,120 You figure out, you know, bread baking is not really my thing, 599 00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:14,240 and I'm going to explore something else like that. 600 00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:18,400 Yeah, for me, that's just rational sense, right? 601 00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:21,320 Like, why? Why would you pursue something 602 00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:24,360 that's you wouldn't enjoy and you're not good at? 603 00:36:24,440 --> 00:36:29,920 And if as a collective, you're taking care of the collective, 604 00:36:31,240 --> 00:36:34,720 then you also have the space to find that thing. 605 00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:39,160 Where you can genuinely you know add value and and be good at. 606 00:36:39,160 --> 00:36:42,720 So yeah in the concept I also think that capitalism is the 607 00:36:42,720 --> 00:36:47,560 best but but currently when you said about giving to charity I 608 00:36:47,600 --> 00:36:50,280 thought about tax write off what's my first thought. 609 00:36:50,640 --> 00:36:54,480 Yeah, and it's again, again, it's like the walk the talk 610 00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:58,640 thing, right? It's it's it's it's not real, 611 00:36:58,640 --> 00:37:01,320 it's not altruistic. And I think especially in 612 00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:03,280 Bitcoin, a lot of things are actually. 613 00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:08,360 Very altruistic also, yeah. Like what you're doing with 614 00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:11,640 writing articles or what I try to do with this podcast and 615 00:37:11,640 --> 00:37:14,280 other people try to do with books and conferences and stuff 616 00:37:14,280 --> 00:37:16,880 like that. Like it's to educate and help 617 00:37:16,920 --> 00:37:24,760 other other people to not only benefit ourselves but you know 618 00:37:25,040 --> 00:37:29,840 again also the the collective. So yeah, I'm excited to see to 619 00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:35,920 see where that goes as a, as a. As someone who's spent time in 620 00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:38,800 the Army and is currently still in the Army, like, are you 621 00:37:38,800 --> 00:37:43,920 familiar with the software thesis of Jason Lowry? 622 00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:47,760 A little bit? I know it's sort of 623 00:37:50,240 --> 00:37:53,520 controversial. And so I've spoken to Jason 624 00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:58,880 about it and essentially it's a lot of people think that, OK, 625 00:37:58,880 --> 00:38:02,880 they want the military to like take up Bitcoin mining and you 626 00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:04,800 know, sort of nationalize the industry. 627 00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:08,600 It's it's not really that at all from from what I've spoken to 628 00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:11,040 him about. And so the way I understand it 629 00:38:11,040 --> 00:38:18,440 is the United States promoting Bitcoin mining at a national 630 00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:26,360 level as a strategic imperative in order to maintain freedom of 631 00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:28,440 transaction for the United States. 632 00:38:28,960 --> 00:38:33,480 And so it's it's not like a military branch where like you 633 00:38:33,480 --> 00:38:36,560 know, like the army is setting up Bitcoin miners. 634 00:38:36,560 --> 00:38:44,920 It's it's more so a policy route where where mining is is 635 00:38:44,920 --> 00:38:48,760 supported in the United States as a strategic imperative for 636 00:38:48,920 --> 00:38:52,600 for the country's economic livelihood, essentially. 637 00:38:53,560 --> 00:38:56,840 No. And do you have any thoughts on 638 00:38:56,840 --> 00:39:01,280 it or it's just baseline understanding and that's that's 639 00:39:01,280 --> 00:39:05,560 it. No, no, no, no critiques. 640 00:39:06,640 --> 00:39:10,440 I I mean I think, I think any country who is hostile to 641 00:39:10,440 --> 00:39:13,800 Bitcoin mining will be regretting it dearly in the next 642 00:39:13,800 --> 00:39:18,400 like 5 to 10 years. So, you know, I, I, I think 643 00:39:18,400 --> 00:39:20,560 Jason, so a lot of people like, oh you. 644 00:39:20,560 --> 00:39:22,840 So he's not writing for you dummies. 645 00:39:22,840 --> 00:39:25,160 He's writing for like generals at the Pentagon. 646 00:39:25,360 --> 00:39:32,240 You know it's not for. You to clarify, I love it as in 647 00:39:32,240 --> 00:39:37,880 love like I I thought it was super interesting actually. 648 00:39:37,880 --> 00:39:40,600 Like the whole the whole criticizing. 649 00:39:41,440 --> 00:39:44,160 I actually, yeah, it's kind of like when they say like oh he's 650 00:39:44,160 --> 00:39:45,960 your government puppet or something like that. 651 00:39:46,040 --> 00:39:47,920 That's kind of where the critique came from. 652 00:39:47,920 --> 00:39:53,880 But I think. How he builds up, you know, what 653 00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:56,680 he's talking about. And his reasoning and 654 00:39:56,680 --> 00:40:00,360 argumentation, I think was, at least from my point of view, 655 00:40:00,360 --> 00:40:03,040 pretty solid. And it makes sense, right? 656 00:40:04,120 --> 00:40:08,080 Where in essence he says there's always power projection and then 657 00:40:08,080 --> 00:40:11,240 he has a. Examples of animals, right? 658 00:40:11,240 --> 00:40:14,960 And that you know lions go for the wounded zebra and they don't 659 00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:18,320 go for the elephant because it is more ended energy expenditure 660 00:40:18,320 --> 00:40:20,120 to get the elephant and the zebra etc. 661 00:40:20,600 --> 00:40:24,200 And so that that is just a by law like something in nature 662 00:40:24,200 --> 00:40:26,320 that is always there also between humans. 663 00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:30,880 So war is more normal than peace basically. 664 00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:33,400 So power projection is always there right? 665 00:40:33,400 --> 00:40:38,080 And that like the next frontier after rockets and stuff like 666 00:40:38,080 --> 00:40:40,840 that is cyberspace. And so that's where he talks 667 00:40:40,840 --> 00:40:46,200 about, you know, defending your own cyberspace through the 668 00:40:46,200 --> 00:40:49,320 computer network. That is, that is Bitcoin, right? 669 00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:52,200 Yeah. I don't understand the critique, 670 00:40:52,240 --> 00:40:55,120 but I wanted to ask you like what what your thoughts were. 671 00:40:55,120 --> 00:40:58,960 But yeah, like we don't really have to get into it if if that's 672 00:40:58,960 --> 00:41:01,240 just that. But yeah, I was excited to hear 673 00:41:01,240 --> 00:41:03,680 that. Yeah, yeah. 674 00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:08,360 I mean, no deep thoughts, Okay. Well then, then we'll then we'll 675 00:41:08,360 --> 00:41:11,320 see what comes of it, right? Like, yeah, he was writing it 676 00:41:11,320 --> 00:41:14,120 for generals and like a Pentagon briefing and stuff like that. 677 00:41:14,120 --> 00:41:16,520 So we'll see. We'll see if they listen. 678 00:41:17,560 --> 00:41:21,040 And why do you think that that countries against Bitcoin who 679 00:41:21,040 --> 00:41:22,880 are against Bitcoin mining will regret it? 680 00:41:22,880 --> 00:41:26,800 Like, what's your fault there? I mean at the base level rate, 681 00:41:26,800 --> 00:41:28,760 it's just, it's just economic growth. 682 00:41:29,160 --> 00:41:32,440 So, so you get the economic growth, you know the bitcoiners 683 00:41:32,440 --> 00:41:35,200 are going to become probably like the richest population in 684 00:41:35,200 --> 00:41:37,400 human history. And on top of that it's 685 00:41:37,400 --> 00:41:42,960 incentivizing energy growth. And so countries that ban or or 686 00:41:42,960 --> 00:41:46,600 or are hostile towards Bitcoin mining are going to miss out on 687 00:41:46,600 --> 00:41:49,560 on a lot of the positive impacts that Bitcoin mining is going to 688 00:41:49,560 --> 00:41:52,720 have on the energy infrastructure and so in the 689 00:41:52,720 --> 00:41:56,160 next like. Ten, 20-30 years, I I don't 690 00:41:56,160 --> 00:41:59,280 think Bitcoin mining will necessarily exist as a stand 691 00:41:59,280 --> 00:42:03,360 alone business, but rather it'll be integrated into the 692 00:42:03,360 --> 00:42:06,720 electrical infrastructure as a grid balancing tool. 693 00:42:07,280 --> 00:42:10,920 And so you know any country who who is hostile is going to miss 694 00:42:10,920 --> 00:42:14,120 out on that and then you know they're not, they're not going 695 00:42:14,120 --> 00:42:17,160 to have a solid. Economy, because they're not 696 00:42:17,160 --> 00:42:20,200 going to have reliable power and power is essential for human 697 00:42:20,200 --> 00:42:22,640 flourishing. And so I mean at the baseline 698 00:42:22,880 --> 00:42:27,200 that like bitcoins impact on on power markets and energy 699 00:42:27,200 --> 00:42:31,200 efficiency is, you know, it's probably reason enough to to 700 00:42:31,200 --> 00:42:34,120 leave it alone and let it flourish in the country all by 701 00:42:34,120 --> 00:42:37,720 itself. Yeah, yeah, I fully agree. 702 00:42:37,720 --> 00:42:42,120 I I also think that we could actually see that sooner than 703 00:42:42,120 --> 00:42:48,400 later with the current situation in the world and where energy is 704 00:42:49,080 --> 00:42:57,200 obviously could be used to put pressure right on other 705 00:42:57,200 --> 00:43:00,760 countries like cutting off countries etcetera. 706 00:43:00,760 --> 00:43:05,000 And of course you also see that in a lot of countries also my 707 00:43:05,000 --> 00:43:09,080 country like the whole, the entire energy grid is not even 708 00:43:09,640 --> 00:43:15,720 prepared to facilitate all the like renewable stuff etcetera. 709 00:43:15,720 --> 00:43:18,560 And and you already have examples especially like in 710 00:43:18,560 --> 00:43:22,960 Texas where where the miners actually provide lots of value 711 00:43:22,960 --> 00:43:25,840 to to keep it stable. So I agree with what you say. 712 00:43:25,840 --> 00:43:29,960 I yeah, I think it it it could be sooner maybe that's kind of 713 00:43:30,000 --> 00:43:33,520 also could also be like the surprise in a sense like that 714 00:43:33,560 --> 00:43:37,720 that entire dimension of Bitcoin which I think yeah it's a study 715 00:43:37,720 --> 00:43:42,040 by itself almost how to utilize that and especially on like a 716 00:43:43,160 --> 00:43:45,440 like a country, country, country level. 717 00:43:45,720 --> 00:43:51,080 So I also wanted to ask you it's like one of the last questions 718 00:43:51,520 --> 00:43:54,920 you know if someone asks you what what is Bitcoin and why 719 00:43:54,920 --> 00:43:57,200 should I care. We kind of like had the all 720 00:43:57,200 --> 00:44:00,880 these different dimensions, you know, where where would you 721 00:44:00,880 --> 00:44:05,040 start with answering that question or where did you try to 722 00:44:05,040 --> 00:44:10,280 start before you? I I guess it depends, right? 723 00:44:11,480 --> 00:44:16,600 It depends on who I'm talking to, you know, A lot of times 724 00:44:16,600 --> 00:44:19,520 it'd be like Bitcoin is a scam and you shouldn't give a shit, 725 00:44:20,160 --> 00:44:22,040 you know, just leave me alone. I'm just kidding. 726 00:44:22,040 --> 00:44:27,440 I wouldn't say that. I I think if if I know them I'll 727 00:44:27,440 --> 00:44:30,640 I'll sort of say something like. You know like digital gold, 728 00:44:30,640 --> 00:44:32,320 right? It's just, it's just digital 729 00:44:32,320 --> 00:44:34,960 gold and now with an absolute supply cap. 730 00:44:36,680 --> 00:44:40,560 But it it's hard to answer that without knowing who's asking the 731 00:44:40,560 --> 00:44:44,480 question because because you know, you could, you could 732 00:44:44,480 --> 00:44:47,280 contextualize it in the way that's most important to you and 733 00:44:47,280 --> 00:44:50,520 completely turn somebody off for from Bitcoin for like the rest 734 00:44:50,520 --> 00:44:53,000 of their life, right. And so it's it's sort of a a 735 00:44:53,040 --> 00:44:56,280 very high stakes question. Where, where, Where? 736 00:44:56,280 --> 00:44:59,400 When people ask me questions about Bitcoin, I I usually 737 00:44:59,400 --> 00:45:02,960 answer the question with questions to to try to try to 738 00:45:02,960 --> 00:45:06,040 like, dial in what they actually care about and what they're what 739 00:45:06,040 --> 00:45:09,960 they're sort of looking for. And so with with my sister, you 740 00:45:09,960 --> 00:45:13,760 know I'll talk about like like I wrote, I wrote an article about. 741 00:45:14,120 --> 00:45:17,520 Peru and how it's, you know, helping lift people out of 742 00:45:17,520 --> 00:45:20,760 poverty in Peru. Well, her husband is from Peru, 743 00:45:20,760 --> 00:45:22,320 right. And so that's sort of like this 744 00:45:22,320 --> 00:45:25,440 very personal touch that that can appeal to my sister. 745 00:45:25,880 --> 00:45:30,760 Whereas other people are just, you know, I've had, I've had 746 00:45:30,760 --> 00:45:33,040 friends that sell their house and they're just sitting on like 747 00:45:33,040 --> 00:45:35,000 a pile of cash. They don't know what to do with 748 00:45:35,000 --> 00:45:36,720 it. I'm like, well, hey, maybe like 749 00:45:36,720 --> 00:45:40,640 put a little bit into Bitcoin. It's it's savings. 750 00:45:40,640 --> 00:45:44,400 It's just it's a long way. It's a long term savings plan or 751 00:45:45,120 --> 00:45:49,240 you know other people. Yeah, a family that's criticized 752 00:45:49,360 --> 00:45:53,280 criticized the the energy industry And so you know OK well 753 00:45:53,280 --> 00:45:56,280 Bitcoin is a way to make renewable energy like more 754 00:45:56,280 --> 00:45:59,840 viable in you know integrating it to the grid. 755 00:45:59,840 --> 00:46:02,640 And so it just, it really depends on who's who's asking 756 00:46:02,640 --> 00:46:04,960 the question. Yeah. 757 00:46:05,600 --> 00:46:08,320 Yeah, great examples. And yeah, I agree. 758 00:46:08,320 --> 00:46:12,640 I, I really try to switch from explaining to asking more 759 00:46:12,640 --> 00:46:15,840 questions, but I find it hard because I just love the whole, 760 00:46:16,480 --> 00:46:19,080 the entire subject, right. So I just start talking and 761 00:46:19,080 --> 00:46:21,880 then. But yeah, I love that angle. 762 00:46:21,880 --> 00:46:24,000 Like just just ask, ask more questions. 763 00:46:25,240 --> 00:46:27,280 All right. So last question I have and I 764 00:46:27,280 --> 00:46:31,520 ask everyone the same thing. What's a core belief that you 765 00:46:31,520 --> 00:46:41,840 will never let go? Trying to think about how to put 766 00:46:41,840 --> 00:46:52,960 this it it's sort of it's sort of evolves around family and so 767 00:46:52,960 --> 00:46:56,960 I I think with the millennials like I I don't have a ton of 768 00:46:56,960 --> 00:47:00,720 friends at work because I have three kids and they don't even 769 00:47:00,720 --> 00:47:05,400 have a girlfriend right and and so with with the money printing. 770 00:47:06,200 --> 00:47:09,360 And you sort of get that nihilistic attitude where people 771 00:47:09,360 --> 00:47:13,200 don't look towards the future, they just live in the present 772 00:47:13,200 --> 00:47:16,360 and they're going out to bars and drinking stuff every night. 773 00:47:16,360 --> 00:47:20,440 And so I I think, I think lowering the time preference and 774 00:47:20,440 --> 00:47:25,600 and putting the focus on on family, you know, in order to 775 00:47:26,840 --> 00:47:32,480 build something that is lasting is is sort of a core principle, 776 00:47:32,480 --> 00:47:33,440 right? And so. 777 00:47:34,560 --> 00:47:37,160 I forget who said it, but it's sort of like if you, if you want 778 00:47:37,160 --> 00:47:41,480 to change the world, raise good kids, you know? 779 00:47:42,560 --> 00:47:46,360 I love that legacy. Yeah, just a little time for 780 00:47:46,360 --> 00:47:47,960 reference. Building a legacy. 781 00:47:49,760 --> 00:47:52,640 Love that, man. I fully agree. 782 00:47:52,640 --> 00:47:54,640 Thank you. I think that's a that's a great 783 00:47:54,640 --> 00:47:56,640 ending. Yeah. 784 00:47:56,640 --> 00:47:59,320 Where can where can people find you? 785 00:48:00,920 --> 00:48:05,520 You have a nice Twitter name and and I well, I'll make sure to 786 00:48:05,520 --> 00:48:08,080 link to your your articles as well. 787 00:48:08,080 --> 00:48:12,000 But yeah, where? Where can people learn more 788 00:48:12,000 --> 00:48:13,720 about you and and find you online? 789 00:48:14,600 --> 00:48:16,480 I'm on. I'm on Twitter and LinkedIn. 790 00:48:17,320 --> 00:48:20,480 Twitter handle is is in the name. 791 00:48:20,480 --> 00:48:24,960 It's Plebius economist. It gave it about 10 seconds 792 00:48:24,960 --> 00:48:29,560 worth of. But in my Twitter profile, 793 00:48:29,560 --> 00:48:33,520 there's a link tree that has all my author pages in my link to my 794 00:48:33,920 --> 00:48:37,240 LinkedIn profile. So feel free to hit me up there 795 00:48:37,240 --> 00:48:40,320 if you want. Also, Ben, I'll make sure to 796 00:48:40,320 --> 00:48:43,280 link to everything. And yeah, thanks again for this 797 00:48:43,280 --> 00:48:45,800 conversation and keep in touch. Yeah. 798 00:48:45,800 --> 00:48:47,880 Thanks a lot. I hope you enjoyed this episode. 799 00:48:47,920 --> 00:48:50,880 If you did, it would be amazing if you could rate, review and 800 00:48:50,880 --> 00:48:53,440 subscribe on the podcast platform of your choice. 801 00:48:58,810 --> 00:49:01,370 It will help us educate more millennials on the importance of 802 00:49:01,410 --> 00:49:03,370 Bitcoin. You can follow and connect with 803 00:49:03,370 --> 00:49:06,690 me on Twitter. I'm Brom K that's at Bramk. 804 00:49:07,250 --> 00:49:09,410 And if you are or know someone who has an interesting 805 00:49:09,410 --> 00:49:11,850 perspective on Bitcoin that's worth sharing, hit me up. 806 00:49:12,210 --> 00:49:13,970 I read and reply to every single message. 807 00:49:14,250 --> 00:49:16,730 I appreciate your support and hope you'll be here for the next 808 00:49:16,730 --> 00:49:18,210 episode. Thanks for listening. 809 00:49:18,490 --> 00:49:18,730 Bye.