1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:02,000 All right, hey there. This is Brom Constant and you're 2 00:00:02,000 --> 00:00:03,480 listening to Bitcoin for Millennials. 3 00:00:03,480 --> 00:00:05,920 Together with my guests on this podcast, I go on a journey to 4 00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:08,560 discover how our current financial system works, why it's 5 00:00:08,560 --> 00:00:11,280 flawed, and why Bitcoin is the most relevant technology that 6 00:00:11,280 --> 00:00:14,480 you should understand and adopt. In this episode, I'm joined by 7 00:00:14,480 --> 00:00:16,560 Fred Krueger. He's a Bitcoin investor, 8 00:00:16,560 --> 00:00:18,800 professional trader and entrepreneur with 10 successful 9 00:00:18,800 --> 00:00:20,600 exits. He holds a math PhD from 10 00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:23,800 Stanford and is a Wall Street veteran, having worked there in 11 00:00:23,800 --> 00:00:25,640 the 80s and 90s. He shares his opinions on 12 00:00:25,640 --> 00:00:28,680 Bitcoin on his popular X and recently created YouTube channel 13 00:00:28,960 --> 00:00:31,360 and never shies away of a discussion with other investors, 14 00:00:31,360 --> 00:00:33,360 so I'm happy to talk with him today. 15 00:00:33,360 --> 00:00:35,680 Welcome, Fred. Thank you, Bram. 16 00:00:36,800 --> 00:00:38,400 Awesome. Yeah. 17 00:00:38,400 --> 00:00:40,160 Thank you. Yeah, it's awesome to meet 18 00:00:40,160 --> 00:00:42,040 people that I just know from Twitter. 19 00:00:42,040 --> 00:00:43,960 So that's always, that's always fun. 20 00:00:45,200 --> 00:00:45,680 Same. Yeah. 21 00:00:45,680 --> 00:00:48,280 So I have some questions for you. 22 00:00:48,320 --> 00:00:51,800 But first I wanted to ask, like, how do you experience talking 23 00:00:52,120 --> 00:00:54,640 about Bitcoin with your generational peers? 24 00:00:54,640 --> 00:00:56,400 Like, do you still try to educate them? 25 00:00:56,400 --> 00:00:58,280 Like what's What's your experience there? 26 00:00:59,600 --> 00:01:04,720 I mean most of them have given up on do not are not open to the 27 00:01:04,760 --> 00:01:10,560 idea of Bitcoin. So I would say most people that 28 00:01:10,560 --> 00:01:14,600 I worked with on Wall Street, very few of them have any 29 00:01:14,600 --> 00:01:17,920 interest at all. And then and most people think 30 00:01:17,920 --> 00:01:23,280 it's just some kind of Ponzi scheme and it's bullshit, 31 00:01:23,280 --> 00:01:26,160 basically. That's kind of what most people 32 00:01:26,160 --> 00:01:29,800 think in my my age bracket. But there are some notable 33 00:01:29,800 --> 00:01:30,880 exceptions, right? But. 34 00:01:32,200 --> 00:01:34,560 We have Larry Lapard, right, I think. 35 00:01:34,760 --> 00:01:35,800 Yeah, yeah. Yeah. 36 00:01:36,080 --> 00:01:42,080 Well, for example, Larry, Larry, I mean is he's very rare that 37 00:01:42,080 --> 00:01:44,960 people coming from the gold background transition to 38 00:01:44,960 --> 00:01:49,800 Bitcoin. I think most people kind of and 39 00:01:49,800 --> 00:01:53,880 once they they're into gold for 20 years, they stay with gold. 40 00:01:54,120 --> 00:01:56,680 They they they don't transition. Yeah. 41 00:01:57,000 --> 00:02:01,680 So I would say, but I just think in general people who have done 42 00:02:01,760 --> 00:02:09,160 well in the kind of the Fiat world, right they they, you know 43 00:02:09,160 --> 00:02:12,760 they stay in the Fiat world and it's it's kind of rare to kind 44 00:02:12,760 --> 00:02:15,520 of change your mindset. Yeah. 45 00:02:15,600 --> 00:02:18,440 Now Larry Fink has changed his mindset on Bitcoin. 46 00:02:19,320 --> 00:02:20,520 But yeah. I think so, yeah. 47 00:02:21,080 --> 00:02:24,120 Yeah. It's not impossible, right? 48 00:02:24,120 --> 00:02:29,400 But there's definitely, there's definitely, it's definitely not 49 00:02:29,400 --> 00:02:33,640 the the the normal thing. Yeah, yeah, I agree. 50 00:02:33,640 --> 00:02:38,120 I I tweeted before like for me people well also like Greg Foss. 51 00:02:38,120 --> 00:02:42,240 You know, I think Greg has in his bio like 35 years in a risk 52 00:02:42,240 --> 00:02:44,160 chair. He, he says, right, right. 53 00:02:44,720 --> 00:02:48,960 And then I think, well, I'm 35, you know, what do I know? 54 00:02:49,120 --> 00:02:52,680 It's then like kind of my, my take there, right like that that 55 00:02:53,120 --> 00:02:55,440 I find it so interesting that that like what you said, like 56 00:02:55,440 --> 00:02:58,000 people who've been in that world for a very long time, the fact 57 00:02:58,000 --> 00:03:01,920 that they can turn around almost to 180, right. 58 00:03:01,920 --> 00:03:05,600 And adopt Bitcoin. I think for me personally that's 59 00:03:05,600 --> 00:03:08,040 a really big signal because it's a really big like personal 60 00:03:08,040 --> 00:03:11,480 challenge as you said, You know, like it's it's difficult to do. 61 00:03:12,240 --> 00:03:13,960 Yeah. And I, but I think a lot of, a 62 00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:18,520 lot of them, even if they are accepting of it, they're 63 00:03:18,520 --> 00:03:22,040 accepting of it to the, you know, 5% of their portfolio kind 64 00:03:22,040 --> 00:03:23,600 of accepting of it. You know what I mean? 65 00:03:23,600 --> 00:03:26,560 They're not, they're not full on bitcoiners. 66 00:03:27,040 --> 00:03:29,840 Yeah. So I think it's really tough. 67 00:03:30,320 --> 00:03:33,880 You know, when you've made it's it's it's it's easier when you 68 00:03:33,880 --> 00:03:35,560 haven't made a lot of money, right. 69 00:03:35,560 --> 00:03:39,160 But when you've made a bunch of money for you to send millions 70 00:03:39,160 --> 00:03:42,000 of dollars to Coinbase to buy Bitcoin, yeah. 71 00:03:42,920 --> 00:03:44,560 As well. You know, that's just it's a 72 00:03:44,560 --> 00:03:48,120 tough thing. I I did it, but it's it's tough 73 00:03:48,160 --> 00:03:50,720 you know what I mean? Like it's it's tough getting 74 00:03:50,720 --> 00:03:53,880 there. It's a lot easier if you're, you 75 00:03:53,880 --> 00:03:58,560 know, if you bought it sort of cheaply and you just saved and 76 00:03:58,560 --> 00:04:03,800 and it went up, you know? And so how do you now look back 77 00:04:03,800 --> 00:04:08,760 on like your Wall Street career and and now that you understand 78 00:04:08,760 --> 00:04:11,960 and know about Bitcoin, like how how do you look back, but also 79 00:04:11,960 --> 00:04:14,800 how did you get introduced to to Bitcoin? 80 00:04:15,640 --> 00:04:19,480 Well, I mean, I got into, I bought my first Bitcoin in 2013, 81 00:04:19,640 --> 00:04:22,200 right? So I I saw it. 82 00:04:22,360 --> 00:04:26,320 You know, I'm a tech guy, so I I, I saw it pretty early and I 83 00:04:26,320 --> 00:04:30,040 bought some, but I didn't think of it as being any more than 84 00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:33,440 just kind of a joke, really, you know, sort of like, OK, this is 85 00:04:33,440 --> 00:04:36,640 some kind of sort of interesting, vaguely vaguely 86 00:04:36,640 --> 00:04:38,600 interesting thing. I'll buy a few. 87 00:04:38,600 --> 00:04:42,360 It's see how it goes. I bought it and then I sold it, 88 00:04:42,440 --> 00:04:44,400 you know, so. Same same. 89 00:04:45,080 --> 00:04:48,000 Yeah, yeah. So, like, I didn't really think 90 00:04:48,080 --> 00:04:52,080 of it as being, you know, like I thought the chance of it taking 91 00:04:52,080 --> 00:05:01,440 off was pretty low, you know, and it really took for me until 92 00:05:01,440 --> 00:05:06,800 2019 before I really kind of, you know, kind of got it, I 93 00:05:06,800 --> 00:05:09,600 would say, you know, and I certainly, you know, I've been 94 00:05:09,920 --> 00:05:12,720 around it. I knew people around it, friends 95 00:05:12,720 --> 00:05:15,960 of mine were into it. But like, it didn't sort of 96 00:05:15,960 --> 00:05:20,280 click for me personally to the point where, OK, I'm going to, 97 00:05:20,280 --> 00:05:22,920 I'm actually going to go out and buy a bunch of this thing, you 98 00:05:22,920 --> 00:05:25,240 know what I mean? Like that and I think that's a 99 00:05:25,240 --> 00:05:28,680 personal thing. It's just like who you talk to, 100 00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:30,840 what it what, what it clicks for you. 101 00:05:30,960 --> 00:05:34,120 A lot of people have different you know roads into it, right. 102 00:05:34,120 --> 00:05:37,720 It might be some kind of economic thing like you think 103 00:05:37,720 --> 00:05:40,200 that inflation is going to take over. 104 00:05:40,760 --> 00:05:46,040 That wasn't really it for me but you know I just I I sort of got 105 00:05:46,040 --> 00:05:50,120 it in 2013 I mean 2019 that's that's kind of and then you know 106 00:05:50,120 --> 00:05:53,480 after that I was I was sort of orange peeled and I added more 107 00:05:53,920 --> 00:05:59,040 but you know sort of like you know right around you know a 108 00:05:59,040 --> 00:06:00,760 little bit one year before sailor. 109 00:06:02,400 --> 00:06:04,760 You know, you beat Sailor. Yeah. 110 00:06:05,280 --> 00:06:08,720 Well, I have the same path I think like and that is also what 111 00:06:08,720 --> 00:06:11,840 I like to, you know, explore also in this podcast because as 112 00:06:11,840 --> 00:06:14,400 you said, it's this personal discovery, right? 113 00:06:14,400 --> 00:06:17,240 Like you, I I am also into Bitcoin from 2013. 114 00:06:17,240 --> 00:06:20,200 I bought at 400. I sold at 4000, You know, I felt 115 00:06:20,200 --> 00:06:22,760 great. But now I have less Bitcoin than 116 00:06:22,760 --> 00:06:26,280 before, you know? And I saw all tweets of myself 117 00:06:26,280 --> 00:06:30,000 tweeting when it went to $100, I saw myself tweet. 118 00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:34,000 It was a a digital commodity. And I was like, damn, I got it. 119 00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:37,080 But I didn't get it, you know, like I I understood it to some 120 00:06:37,080 --> 00:06:38,240 degree, but I didn't. Well, I think. 121 00:06:38,240 --> 00:06:42,600 The big, the big thing for me, which is, you know, I it it. 122 00:06:42,720 --> 00:06:46,800 I was really concerned right up till 2018 that something else 123 00:06:46,800 --> 00:06:50,080 was going to win, you know, because I think that everybody 124 00:06:50,080 --> 00:06:54,640 in tech always sort of has this mentality that, you know, 125 00:06:55,040 --> 00:06:58,360 Myspace is going to get displaced by Facebook, that AOL 126 00:06:58,360 --> 00:07:00,640 is going to get displaced by Yahoo, which is going to get 127 00:07:00,640 --> 00:07:04,440 displaced by Google. So we don't, we think of it as 128 00:07:04,440 --> 00:07:06,840 just pure technology and you're always sort of thinking, well, 129 00:07:06,840 --> 00:07:09,480 there's something better that's going to come along. 130 00:07:09,480 --> 00:07:13,080 You know, why would I bet on this particular thing? 131 00:07:13,080 --> 00:07:16,880 When there's something you know, this is slow, expensive. 132 00:07:16,920 --> 00:07:19,400 Maybe there's going to be fast and cheap that comes along, you 133 00:07:19,400 --> 00:07:23,040 know? So I was really of that opinion 134 00:07:23,040 --> 00:07:26,320 that fast and cheap would win over slow and expensive. 135 00:07:26,760 --> 00:07:29,600 Yeah, well, TCPIP didn't get replaced, right? 136 00:07:29,600 --> 00:07:34,480 Like it's more on that level. Yeah, I mean, but there's a lot 137 00:07:34,480 --> 00:07:36,600 of other crypto currencies, right? 138 00:07:36,840 --> 00:07:41,040 So you know, there wasn't a lot of TCPIP. 139 00:07:41,840 --> 00:07:42,920 That's true. You know what I mean? 140 00:07:42,920 --> 00:07:44,240 Yeah, that's that's true. Yeah. 141 00:07:44,360 --> 00:07:46,440 But you do see the difference now, right? 142 00:07:47,120 --> 00:07:47,760 Like you. Yeah. 143 00:07:48,680 --> 00:07:50,520 Yeah. So I I definitely think that 144 00:07:50,520 --> 00:07:53,440 that's, that's, and I think still a lot of people on Wall 145 00:07:53,440 --> 00:07:57,920 Street, just fundamentally, even if they say they're pro Bitcoin 146 00:07:58,240 --> 00:08:01,480 fundamentally they may be like, well, wait a second, maybe 147 00:08:01,560 --> 00:08:05,800 Solana is going to take over Avalanche or something. 148 00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:08,800 You know, you, you know, they really fundamentally they're 149 00:08:08,800 --> 00:08:10,920 open to that idea. Yeah. 150 00:08:11,520 --> 00:08:15,560 I think that takes time to understand as to like which 151 00:08:15,560 --> 00:08:17,280 layer does this belong to, right? 152 00:08:17,280 --> 00:08:21,000 Should I look at this as as a technology or as a startup 153 00:08:21,000 --> 00:08:24,320 creating a token that is fueling a certain ecosystem? 154 00:08:24,320 --> 00:08:27,000 Or is Bitcoin just a totally different? 155 00:08:27,760 --> 00:08:29,840 Right. I mean, I think it's sort of, I 156 00:08:29,840 --> 00:08:32,960 think if you think of this thing as payment, as a payment 157 00:08:32,960 --> 00:08:35,440 technology, you're missing it, right? 158 00:08:35,440 --> 00:08:37,080 You will miss it. You will miss exactly. 159 00:08:37,760 --> 00:08:41,320 You will miss the what it is right is you're like, OK, well 160 00:08:42,280 --> 00:08:45,200 Venmo does really well. You know Venmo does pretty good. 161 00:08:45,360 --> 00:08:49,440 It's it's it's it works. PayPal works, you know. 162 00:08:50,880 --> 00:08:56,120 You know and maybe stablecoins are better than you know than 163 00:08:56,120 --> 00:09:01,880 using Bitcoin because you know stablecoins is the dollar. 164 00:09:01,880 --> 00:09:05,360 It's, you know, if you're in Venezuela, the dollar seems 165 00:09:05,360 --> 00:09:06,720 pretty good. Do you know what I mean? 166 00:09:07,200 --> 00:09:11,880 So I think that the, the problem is I think payment tech you, you 167 00:09:11,880 --> 00:09:16,280 miss, you miss it. And I think the hard thing is 168 00:09:16,280 --> 00:09:21,000 realizing that it actually is a new form of money and it's, you 169 00:09:21,000 --> 00:09:23,680 know, it's a new, it's a new unit of account. 170 00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:31,560 And that's really the hard part because you know I think it it's 171 00:09:31,560 --> 00:09:34,840 a very counter intuitive that that that we even why do we need 172 00:09:34,840 --> 00:09:40,040 a new unit of account, you know, like that's it's not clear like 173 00:09:40,040 --> 00:09:42,920 living in America in particular or Netherlands, right. 174 00:09:43,680 --> 00:09:48,160 Why do I need to start? You know, going from, you know, 175 00:09:48,160 --> 00:09:52,880 the Euro to this weird unit of account called Bitcoin. 176 00:09:53,000 --> 00:09:55,960 You know why? You know, hey there, thanks so 177 00:09:55,960 --> 00:09:57,280 much for listening to this episode. 178 00:09:57,320 --> 00:09:59,920 I just really want to ask you for a quick favor. 179 00:10:00,200 --> 00:10:03,760 Over the last few months, I've seen that only 75% of people who 180 00:10:03,760 --> 00:10:06,520 listen to this podcast or watch it on YouTube are actually 181 00:10:06,520 --> 00:10:08,240 subscribed. The most important thing I'm 182 00:10:08,240 --> 00:10:11,000 currently focusing on, next to hopefully giving you interesting 183 00:10:11,000 --> 00:10:14,440 conversations is growing this podcast subscriber base so I can 184 00:10:14,440 --> 00:10:16,200 continue with it into the future. 185 00:10:16,560 --> 00:10:18,960 I want to thank everyone who's been viewing and listening to 186 00:10:18,960 --> 00:10:21,840 Bitcoin for millennials leaving comments here and sending me 187 00:10:21,840 --> 00:10:23,320 DMS. It's been super, super 188 00:10:23,320 --> 00:10:24,760 motivating. So thank you so much. 189 00:10:25,080 --> 00:10:27,920 So I really want to ask you to please hit the subscribe button 190 00:10:27,920 --> 00:10:31,200 on YouTube or follow me on your favorite podcasting app if you 191 00:10:31,200 --> 00:10:34,200 are enjoying this podcast. Thanks again for joining me on 192 00:10:34,200 --> 00:10:36,400 this journey. Now back to the conversation. 193 00:10:36,800 --> 00:10:38,680 Well that was actually my my next question. 194 00:10:38,680 --> 00:10:40,600 Like what? What do you think is the main 195 00:10:40,920 --> 00:10:43,520 thing people need to learn before they can understand 196 00:10:43,520 --> 00:10:46,240 Bitcoin? Is it that the money that they 197 00:10:46,240 --> 00:10:50,400 are forced to use is not really designed to work for them? 198 00:10:50,400 --> 00:10:52,960 Or like what's what would you say there? 199 00:10:53,080 --> 00:10:57,640 Look, I thought about it. Now my thesis is this is that I 200 00:10:57,640 --> 00:11:01,960 think there's a couple things that Bitcoin does much better 201 00:11:01,960 --> 00:11:06,040 than regular money, right? And the first thing I think it 202 00:11:06,040 --> 00:11:13,600 does is it's, it allows your money to be held in custody by 203 00:11:13,600 --> 00:11:16,840 yourself and and and moved wherever you want, right. 204 00:11:17,360 --> 00:11:22,360 And you know, if you have EUR and you move to America, your 205 00:11:22,360 --> 00:11:26,480 euros are basically useless. You know, they, you know, we do 206 00:11:26,480 --> 00:11:28,520 not accept the euro over here, right? 207 00:11:29,200 --> 00:11:33,760 Yeah, the dollar, if my dollars in in Netherlands are pretty 208 00:11:33,760 --> 00:11:38,600 useless, you know, But Bitcoin is this, this unit where I can 209 00:11:38,600 --> 00:11:45,560 hold my my Bitcoin in a wallet and I can take that wallet 210 00:11:45,560 --> 00:11:47,200 anywhere I want in the world, right. 211 00:11:47,800 --> 00:11:50,080 And that's a fundamentally new thing. 212 00:11:50,280 --> 00:11:52,360 And I think that's. I think that's actually the 213 00:11:52,360 --> 00:11:56,560 killer app of Bitcoin, right, Is that it's sort of it it it's 214 00:11:56,560 --> 00:12:00,200 money that you can transfer, you can hold and you can move around 215 00:12:00,440 --> 00:12:02,960 the world, right? That's the first thing. 216 00:12:02,960 --> 00:12:06,200 I think it's just and no, no, nothing has it. 217 00:12:06,200 --> 00:12:09,280 Because Fiat really has to be stored in the bank account, 218 00:12:09,360 --> 00:12:12,000 right? And then there's some third 219 00:12:12,000 --> 00:12:17,520 party that's kind of gating it. Bitcoin can be stored, you know, 220 00:12:18,480 --> 00:12:22,120 just in a wallet, right? And so that's the first thing. 221 00:12:22,120 --> 00:12:27,120 The second thing is, you know I can send Bitcoin anywhere to 222 00:12:27,120 --> 00:12:31,960 anybody, anywhere in the world without an intermediary either, 223 00:12:31,960 --> 00:12:33,920 right. So I don't need a a checkbook to 224 00:12:33,920 --> 00:12:36,040 send it. I don't need a wire to send it. 225 00:12:36,280 --> 00:12:38,360 I can send it to anybody in the world. 226 00:12:38,720 --> 00:12:42,760 And again that's a that's a really new thing right now. 227 00:12:42,760 --> 00:12:45,920 Other cryptocurrencies have that capability as they have the 228 00:12:45,920 --> 00:12:50,200 capability of the wallet, right. But I would think those two 229 00:12:50,200 --> 00:12:54,680 things are the thing that are that are the the biggest 230 00:12:55,840 --> 00:12:59,400 capabilities of of of of crypto in general, right. 231 00:12:59,560 --> 00:13:03,360 And then the third thing is you know this sort of finite supply, 232 00:13:03,360 --> 00:13:06,000 right. So you know it cannot be 233 00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:10,160 debased. And I think between those 234 00:13:10,160 --> 00:13:13,280 things, I think you have something that is extremely 235 00:13:13,280 --> 00:13:19,120 powerful and it's extremely powerful for for people to keep 236 00:13:19,120 --> 00:13:21,720 their money out of the reach of the government. 237 00:13:22,680 --> 00:13:26,560 And that I think is the biggest, that's the use, that's the core 238 00:13:26,560 --> 00:13:31,760 driver of bitcoins growth #1 driver is I want to take my 239 00:13:31,760 --> 00:13:35,240 money and I want to move it outside of the banking system. 240 00:13:35,760 --> 00:13:39,880 I want to move it outside of the government system and. 241 00:13:39,880 --> 00:13:43,800 How how much do you think people should understand that? 242 00:13:44,920 --> 00:13:47,680 Like what you said, the finite supply but also the issuance, 243 00:13:47,680 --> 00:13:50,200 right? It cannot be debased like that. 244 00:13:50,200 --> 00:13:53,720 They have to understand how that is enforced, right? 245 00:13:53,720 --> 00:13:58,560 With all the incentives within the miners and and. 246 00:13:58,560 --> 00:13:59,800 Right. So I think there's sort of two 247 00:13:59,800 --> 00:14:02,160 things, right? One is understanding crypto in 248 00:14:02,160 --> 00:14:06,040 general, right? Because Bitcoin works the same 249 00:14:06,040 --> 00:14:08,240 as all other cryptos, more or less, right? 250 00:14:08,240 --> 00:14:11,280 Whether it's Ethereum or anything, right? 251 00:14:11,280 --> 00:14:12,720 You have a wallet. Usage. 252 00:14:13,560 --> 00:14:15,360 Yes, in terms of the usage, right. 253 00:14:16,040 --> 00:14:18,240 And then there, then, then there's also. 254 00:14:18,240 --> 00:14:20,520 Why is this particular 1 special? 255 00:14:21,320 --> 00:14:25,400 Right, yes, exactly. That that's that's really the. 256 00:14:25,400 --> 00:14:30,160 So the first thing is just can do you understand wallets? 257 00:14:30,200 --> 00:14:32,760 And do you understand see phrases and do you do you 258 00:14:32,760 --> 00:14:35,760 understand those things? Now that's a that's the first 259 00:14:35,760 --> 00:14:38,000 step, right. So people have to get over that 260 00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:40,120 hump. Not obvious, right? 261 00:14:40,120 --> 00:14:43,280 Because like, people don't understand where is my Bitcoin? 262 00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:46,520 Is it stored inside the Ledger somewhere? 263 00:14:46,520 --> 00:14:49,400 Is it like people? People don't understand that, 264 00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:50,960 right? They have a hard time even 265 00:14:50,960 --> 00:14:53,200 understanding what it is that it is. 266 00:14:53,480 --> 00:14:57,880 Comparing it to an existing experience right there. 267 00:14:58,040 --> 00:15:00,360 Yeah. Their concept is my. 268 00:15:00,400 --> 00:15:03,600 The money I see in my. Banking concept is the wallet is 269 00:15:03,600 --> 00:15:08,040 the wallet, You know, yeah, this wallet has, well, I don't have 270 00:15:08,040 --> 00:15:11,000 any dollars in this wallet, but it has, it can't have dollars. 271 00:15:11,000 --> 00:15:14,120 So if they leave, they're either in the wallet, they're out out 272 00:15:14,120 --> 00:15:16,520 of the wallet, but they're they're not in two wallets at 273 00:15:16,520 --> 00:15:20,240 the same time, right. That that that doesn't exist 274 00:15:20,240 --> 00:15:24,320 with with cash, right. It's in one wallet, but Bitcoin 275 00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:26,200 can be in three wallets at the same time. 276 00:15:26,200 --> 00:15:30,400 So, you know, I think that's from a conceptual layer, 277 00:15:30,560 --> 00:15:33,320 conceptual level. People, a lot of people just 278 00:15:33,320 --> 00:15:37,080 don't understand that. And I think it takes a while to 279 00:15:37,080 --> 00:15:39,480 really understand that. To be honest. 280 00:15:39,480 --> 00:15:42,680 I don't, you know, I think a lot of and and Bitcoin is 281 00:15:42,680 --> 00:15:49,160 particularly particularly tricky because they change the ad, you 282 00:15:49,160 --> 00:15:52,880 change the addresses, you know the the setup of Bitcoin's a 283 00:15:52,880 --> 00:15:58,080 little odd, you know, I would say, yeah, there's. 284 00:15:58,440 --> 00:16:00,840 There's so many layers to understanding as to why. 285 00:16:00,840 --> 00:16:05,520 There's a lot of features work to to what Bitcoin is, right. 286 00:16:06,280 --> 00:16:09,440 So I think, you know, it takes a certain takes a while. 287 00:16:09,440 --> 00:16:13,200 But then there's then there's sort of the, OK, well, why is 288 00:16:13,200 --> 00:16:16,280 this? Why is this thing, why is this 289 00:16:16,280 --> 00:16:18,480 different from say, Solana? Right. 290 00:16:19,000 --> 00:16:22,240 Well, there's no, there's no company behind it. 291 00:16:22,240 --> 00:16:25,320 There's no Solana Foundation. Bitcoin, there is kind of 292 00:16:25,320 --> 00:16:29,720 Bitcoin Foundation, but there there's no foundation that's in 293 00:16:29,720 --> 00:16:32,640 charge of Bitcoin, right. So there's nobody who says, 294 00:16:32,640 --> 00:16:35,080 well, you know, we're going to change the rules of Bitcoin. 295 00:16:35,080 --> 00:16:38,280 We're going to do this. So that's another whole layer 296 00:16:38,280 --> 00:16:43,120 that I think people get really they have a hard time with. 297 00:16:43,240 --> 00:16:49,040 And and I think, you know, I mean I'm honestly not that many 298 00:16:49,040 --> 00:16:51,120 people really understand it to be honest. 299 00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:54,800 But but they understand that they they do understand that the 300 00:16:54,800 --> 00:16:57,720 price is going up and they understand that people are 301 00:16:57,720 --> 00:17:02,520 saying this is the one And so you know and they listen to 302 00:17:02,520 --> 00:17:05,880 people like you and me, you know and and they're they're like, 303 00:17:05,880 --> 00:17:09,640 OK, these guys seem to be passionate about it. 304 00:17:09,640 --> 00:17:13,720 They seem to they seem to you know be articulating that this 305 00:17:13,720 --> 00:17:16,480 is different from some other cryptocurrency. 306 00:17:17,079 --> 00:17:21,119 So you know. And so why do you? 307 00:17:21,599 --> 00:17:25,640 How would you explain why this is such a big concept and the 308 00:17:25,640 --> 00:17:27,040 future of money? Like what? 309 00:17:27,040 --> 00:17:29,320 Why should people pay attention? I saw you tweet. 310 00:17:29,320 --> 00:17:32,720 You know, like something along the lines and I'm maybe 311 00:17:32,720 --> 00:17:36,320 butchering, but you know, like you have to pay attention, like 312 00:17:36,320 --> 00:17:38,520 you cannot miss this. Like if you're missing this, now 313 00:17:38,520 --> 00:17:41,480 it's just your own like. Right. 314 00:17:41,480 --> 00:17:47,760 Well, look, I mean attention, you know, you know, it's it if 315 00:17:47,760 --> 00:17:50,560 we're right, right, if we bitcoiners are right. 316 00:17:50,640 --> 00:17:52,880 And I think I think we are right. 317 00:17:52,880 --> 00:17:57,720 But like, you know, if this is going to become the future world 318 00:17:57,720 --> 00:18:05,240 money, right then if you don't get involved at year 15 of the 319 00:18:05,240 --> 00:18:10,080 future of world money, you kind of missed pretty much the 320 00:18:10,080 --> 00:18:13,760 biggest thing that that that's going to change the world 321 00:18:13,760 --> 00:18:17,120 economy. You know, going forward, I I 322 00:18:17,120 --> 00:18:19,600 don't see anything that's going to be bigger than that, right. 323 00:18:19,600 --> 00:18:25,160 Because if if if the entire money supply changes to to a 324 00:18:25,160 --> 00:18:28,560 world where we're running Bitcoin and if that happens 325 00:18:28,560 --> 00:18:34,520 within the next, say 20 years, well, the difference between you 326 00:18:34,520 --> 00:18:37,880 not getting involved now and getting involved 20 years from 327 00:18:37,880 --> 00:18:43,560 now is, I mean it's it's going to mean completely night or day 328 00:18:43,600 --> 00:18:46,560 as to kind of whether you retire, for example. 329 00:18:46,560 --> 00:18:50,880 You know what I mean? You still may retire, but you 330 00:18:50,880 --> 00:18:54,400 know, it's an amazing opportunity, right? 331 00:18:55,200 --> 00:18:57,160 What? I wanted to say not as 332 00:18:57,160 --> 00:18:59,800 advertised. Not as advertised. 333 00:18:59,960 --> 00:19:03,400 You could still survive. I mean, I I think you'll do 334 00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:06,960 fine. But like you know it it it's 335 00:19:06,960 --> 00:19:11,240 probably the single biggest wealth creation event for 336 00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:16,040 people, especially your age, is there's going to be one decision 337 00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:19,440 did did they did they get orange spilled or not? 338 00:19:19,960 --> 00:19:22,920 Yeah, so. Why do you think it's so hard 339 00:19:22,920 --> 00:19:24,800 for people? I totally agree. 340 00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:28,920 What I sometimes think is the fact that we are living in a 341 00:19:28,920 --> 00:19:33,040 time where something so big is developing. 342 00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:38,200 That's already hard for people to like get right, like big, big 343 00:19:38,280 --> 00:19:40,840 things that happened in history. They are history. 344 00:19:40,840 --> 00:19:44,640 We read about them right. They seem far away from us. 345 00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:46,200 We we seem far removed from that. 346 00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:49,000 But the fact that we are actually living through it, I 347 00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:52,600 think sometimes that's also what drives people to kind of like 348 00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:55,360 ignoring it or saying, like, yeah, well, you're talking in 349 00:19:55,360 --> 00:19:58,680 this big way that doesn't really make sense, right? 350 00:19:58,680 --> 00:20:01,520 They cannot just, they cannot, They are not able to wrap their 351 00:20:01,520 --> 00:20:05,720 head around the fact that this is the invention of a new, 352 00:20:05,720 --> 00:20:08,440 better money basically, right. And something. 353 00:20:08,440 --> 00:20:13,280 That creates the cornerstone of kind of, you know, government, 354 00:20:13,280 --> 00:20:15,360 economics, business, everything, right. 355 00:20:15,680 --> 00:20:19,120 So you know, that's The thing is like you said, well, So what 356 00:20:19,120 --> 00:20:21,520 money. OK, so it's like a new PayPal, 357 00:20:22,240 --> 00:20:25,120 OK, that does that's not going to change the world, right? 358 00:20:25,120 --> 00:20:27,440 A new PayPal is not going to change the world, right. 359 00:20:27,880 --> 00:20:34,280 But a new thing where everybody's going to be stuck to 360 00:20:34,280 --> 00:20:37,840 the system of like really honest money, where governments can't 361 00:20:37,840 --> 00:20:43,040 print and where, you know, everybody who does go into debt 362 00:20:43,640 --> 00:20:47,160 is going to you just can't keep on racking up debts forever 363 00:20:47,160 --> 00:20:49,600 either. That's fundamentally going to 364 00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:56,280 change everything. So I think it's it's hard to I 365 00:20:56,280 --> 00:20:58,680 think you can understand that it's going to happen. 366 00:20:59,080 --> 00:21:05,280 But I think it's so it's it's so revolutionary that I think most 367 00:21:05,280 --> 00:21:08,080 people think, yeah, it can't possibly happen, but not in my 368 00:21:08,080 --> 00:21:09,960 lifetime, right? Exactly, yeah. 369 00:21:10,360 --> 00:21:11,640 Yeah. I mean, they're like, yeah. 370 00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:17,440 And and I think, you know, you know, I was having this 371 00:21:17,440 --> 00:21:21,400 conversation on spaces with some, some people from Europe, 372 00:21:21,400 --> 00:21:24,440 from England. And they're like, well, you 373 00:21:24,440 --> 00:21:28,720 know, people, a lot of people in Europe sort of believe that the 374 00:21:28,720 --> 00:21:30,760 government's going to take care of them, right? 375 00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:33,840 Like the government's going to provide my pension, the 376 00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:36,040 government's going to do this, government's going to take care 377 00:21:36,040 --> 00:21:39,120 of me. And you know, I think that's 378 00:21:39,120 --> 00:21:40,920 probably an incorrect assumption. 379 00:21:41,120 --> 00:21:43,440 You know, we're seeing that in the same thing in the US You 380 00:21:43,440 --> 00:21:46,440 know, government's going to pay pay for my Social Security. 381 00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:48,080 No, the government's not going to. 382 00:21:48,840 --> 00:21:50,600 There will not be any Social Security. 383 00:21:50,600 --> 00:21:54,320 You don't. That's just a lie, you know, for 384 00:21:54,360 --> 00:21:57,040 the next. In America for the next 300 385 00:21:57,040 --> 00:22:01,320 years probably or so maybe. Sorry, in America probably for 386 00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:04,480 for the next 3-4 hundred years if you look at you know how many 387 00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:06,360 trillion of unfunded liabilities. 388 00:22:06,360 --> 00:22:08,440 Yeah, I mean, they can't. Well, they can't pay it. 389 00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:10,720 That's never going to be and they can't. 390 00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:14,480 And those Medicare benefits and the Social Security benefits are 391 00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:17,440 not they. They do not have money for that. 392 00:22:18,320 --> 00:22:21,680 And so the system is kind of bankrupt, but we're all 393 00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:25,840 pretending that it's not. And so there's got to be, 394 00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:30,520 there's got to be a fundamental change to the system and that 395 00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:33,600 change is coming and and bitcoin's going to be part of 396 00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:37,880 that change, right. So it it's a really big change 397 00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:40,360 and I think a lot of people would rather, you know, it's a 398 00:22:40,360 --> 00:22:43,320 little bit like thinking about your your own death, right. 399 00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:47,080 It's not particularly pleasant thinking that you're not going 400 00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:50,680 to be around, you know, 100 years from now, but you're not 401 00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:52,760 going to be around 100 years from now, you know what I mean? 402 00:22:53,360 --> 00:22:55,000 And. It doesn't make it less true, 403 00:22:55,200 --> 00:22:56,680 right? So you're feeling about? 404 00:22:56,720 --> 00:23:01,080 It doesn't make it feel you're exactly there's nobody has ever 405 00:23:01,080 --> 00:23:05,040 lived beyond 123 years old that's the maximum a human being 406 00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:09,040 And you know we've had you know 10 billion of us going to walk 407 00:23:09,040 --> 00:23:12,960 the earth and nobody's lived beyond 123 that we that's in 408 00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:15,600 recorded history. And look I think we're going to 409 00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:25,720 this system is also going to fail and and you know I if not 410 00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:29,560 thinking about it doesn't doesn't make it not happen so 411 00:23:29,600 --> 00:23:34,480 it's going to happen and and kind of bitcoins your solution. 412 00:23:34,520 --> 00:23:38,560 You know and you know it's just a question of how much do you 413 00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:41,640 want to hedge your bets. Maybe you maybe you sort of say 414 00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:44,760 well OK Freddie kind of 10% believe you. 415 00:23:44,760 --> 00:23:48,040 OK great. Well 10%'s probably probably 416 00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:50,880 enough. You don't you don't need to be 417 00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:54,600 100% believer you know you just you need to be a little bit of a 418 00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:57,240 believer. You know, we're still 419 00:23:57,240 --> 00:24:01,680 sufficiently early that if you kind of believe a little bit, I 420 00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:05,360 think you're going to be OK You don't have to put all your eggs 421 00:24:05,360 --> 00:24:10,880 in the Bitcoin basket, but you know it it it really makes no 422 00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:12,800 sense to have no coins, I think, at this. 423 00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:19,480 Point I think the fact that this is so big, combined with the 424 00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:23,680 weird perception of people that it's too late and all these 425 00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:26,920 things that I think that makes a lot of people not pay attention, 426 00:24:26,920 --> 00:24:29,120 right? Like well, because Brahm and 427 00:24:29,120 --> 00:24:31,320 Fred are talking about it, yeah, they're only talking about it 428 00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:33,160 because they have Bitcoin, by the way. 429 00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:37,120 I always then think, right, Of course that is my skin in the 430 00:24:37,120 --> 00:24:38,680 game. It would be weird if I didn't 431 00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:40,880 have Bitcoin and talked about how good Bitcoin was, but 432 00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:45,280 anyway, but the point is more like people think they are too 433 00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:48,040 late, but how are you too late to a new money, right? 434 00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:50,040 And that's kind of ties into like how big? 435 00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:52,400 You think look how far can you zoom out. 436 00:24:53,360 --> 00:24:57,920 I think part of The thing is like you you it's it's hard 437 00:24:57,920 --> 00:25:02,400 without looking at sort of quantitative numbers of how how 438 00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:05,400 how much this is catching on. You know and that's one of the 439 00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:09,040 things I've been kind of doing on Twitter recently is I've I 440 00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:12,880 really, you know I really been focusing on kind of trying to 441 00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:17,920 explain to people about these power laws and not not just 442 00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:21,840 about power laws of price but like power laws of adoption, 443 00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:24,880 right. So you know Bitcoin at the end 444 00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:28,480 of the day it is growing almost exponentially. 445 00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:31,280 It's it's growing like a weed. OK. 446 00:25:32,120 --> 00:25:40,600 And and basically, you know, 25% a year, there's more Bitcoin 447 00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:43,360 users every year. And it doesn't matter whether 448 00:25:43,360 --> 00:25:47,240 bitcoin's going price is going up or down, the usage is 449 00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:49,760 increasing, right. And there's all these ways of 450 00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:52,040 measuring that. You can measure people who have 451 00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:57,080 one Bitcoin or people who have 110th of a Bitcoin or addresses 452 00:25:57,080 --> 00:26:01,760 that have 100th of a Bitcoin or even addresses that have 10 453 00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:05,040 Bitcoin. And you see these these things 454 00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:09,000 are growing at a sort of a geometric rate, right? 455 00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:14,800 And so there's, you know, it really is, there is no 456 00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:18,080 uncertainty about it. It's just this thing's growing. 457 00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:21,680 It's sort of like population growth in a country like, you 458 00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:24,600 know, India, right? Population growth in Netherlands 459 00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:29,000 is not growing, but population in India is growing or Mexico 460 00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:31,560 it's growing every year. It's growing at you know 461 00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:37,600 whatever 7% a year and you know I think the we're dealing with 462 00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:41,360 sort of an inevitability of the growth and adoption of Bitcoin 463 00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:45,200 that that's that's the that's really the basis. 464 00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:48,920 Now this is also growing in terms of price. 465 00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:54,120 It's also growing in a very consistent way, but it's a 466 00:26:54,120 --> 00:26:59,400 little harder to really appreciate and understand that 467 00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:04,920 because it's happening in this logarithmic kind of way and we 468 00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:07,480 have very bad intuition for logarithmic growth. 469 00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:11,160 Can you explain a bit on that? Like what's? 470 00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:15,480 The main thing to understand, let's just say if people like if 471 00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:18,400 you ask most people who are not in Bitcoin, or even people who 472 00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:22,920 are in Bitcoin, you say explain, explain the price of Bitcoin, 473 00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:26,840 they'd be like, well there was back in the day, a long, long 474 00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:29,720 time ago, Bitcoin was really cheap, right? 475 00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:33,640 Like you were saying, right? You know, 2013, it was like a 476 00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:37,160 couple $100, right? You can buy Bitcoin for $200, 477 00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:40,800 right? And then so there was this 478 00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:42,720 prehistory where it was very cheap. 479 00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:48,920 And then in 2017 it kind of went from $1000 to $20,000, right? 480 00:27:49,120 --> 00:27:52,400 Almost 20,000. Then it crashed and then it was 481 00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:57,440 like dead. And then it went in late 2020 it 482 00:27:57,600 --> 00:28:02,840 rose again from the dead and then it went to $60,000 and then 483 00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:07,120 it stayed there for about a year, went down and went back 484 00:28:07,120 --> 00:28:10,720 up. It hit 60,069 thousand in the 485 00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:15,000 second peak, then it crashed and then it did nothing for three 486 00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:18,160 years it died and then last year it went back up. 487 00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:22,720 Well that doesn't sound like a like a straight line at all, 488 00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:25,560 right. Like that's that's not, that's 489 00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:28,960 sort of like sounds like a very risky kind of investment that 490 00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:31,640 probably too risky for most people, right. 491 00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:33,440 Like especially somebody my age, right. 492 00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:36,640 They'd be like yeah, I don't need that that sounds like way 493 00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:41,720 too much volatile just complete risky casino, you know. 494 00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:47,360 But if you look at it on logarithmic space and you say, 495 00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:51,120 great, let's look at the logarithm of Bitcoin price, 496 00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:54,760 right, which the logarithm is, is a a good way that you can put 497 00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:59,240 a a graph of Bitcoin price over a very wide time scale, right. 498 00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:03,800 So from when Bitcoin was at $0.10, right? 499 00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:09,280 So the logarithm is -1 at $0.10, right to right now where 500 00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:13,920 Bitcoin, let's say it's roughly $100,000, not quite 100,000 yet, 501 00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:18,800 but you know 100,000 would be 10 to the power 6, the logarithm of 502 00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:22,920 it in base 5:50. So you went from -1 to +6, 503 00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:25,960 right? So you look at that And now the 504 00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:30,960 trick is look at time also on a logarithmic basis. 505 00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:38,840 So look at time starting at the genesis block and 15 years from 506 00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:42,320 that, from there, so 10 years. That left, that's one, right? 507 00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:46,680 Because 10 to the power of 110 to the power one is 10, right. 508 00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:50,960 And so you know, you start at zero, you go to a little bit 509 00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:57,160 beyond one, Now you're at, you know, 1.4, right, 1.3, you know. 510 00:29:57,600 --> 00:30:02,480 And so if you look at time that way and logarithm price, now you 511 00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:05,000 see, whoa, it's a complete straight line. 512 00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:08,160 Yeah, it's very clear. Once you see it. 513 00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:12,160 You're like, I can't Unsee that it's completely a straight line. 514 00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:15,920 And now it wobbles around the straight line, but it's very 515 00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:17,760 clear that it's growing linearly. 516 00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:20,360 Not possible that it's random, right. 517 00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:23,080 Yeah. And I think, you know, there's 518 00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:26,640 not, you know, not that many people have seen that graph, 519 00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:28,920 including not that many bitcoiners, right. 520 00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:34,800 Yeah. And so once you see that graph, 521 00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:38,240 you're like, oh, hmm, that's odd. 522 00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:43,560 Why is this thing that went up from $0.10 to 100,000? 523 00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:46,840 So it went up 7 orders of magnitude, right? 524 00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:50,760 How? How could something like grow up 525 00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:55,360 in such a consistent way? And the answer is it's a power 526 00:30:55,360 --> 00:30:57,240 law. It's it's a it's part of these 527 00:30:57,240 --> 00:31:01,920 power laws that exist in nature all over the place, right? 528 00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:02,960 Yeah. And. 529 00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:05,920 So, yeah, sorry to ask you a question about it. 530 00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:10,680 Like I'm, I'm talking to Giovanni in two days, so that's 531 00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:12,640 great. So we'll dive deeper, but I 532 00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:15,840 think the essence of the power law is like, I think there's 533 00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:18,960 there's a great example and I want to say it correctly, but I 534 00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:23,800 think it's like the like how the size of the heart of an animal 535 00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:27,000 is correlated to its weight or its size in a certain way, 536 00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:29,560 right, like that. Eventually, So if you look at. 537 00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:33,120 Stuff like that. The mass, the mass of an element 538 00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:36,360 of an the mass of an animal, right. 539 00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:40,760 Measured in kilograms, right. Yeah, and you measure the 540 00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:44,960 logarithm of the mass of an animal, and on the other axis, 541 00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:49,200 you put the metabolic rate, which is how much energy does 542 00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:51,840 that animal need to stay alive, right? 543 00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:56,200 Well, it turns out you need 100 watts to stay alive. 544 00:31:57,960 --> 00:32:01,760 So you you require, you and I both require about the same 545 00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:05,640 amount of energy as a light bulb to keep going, right? 546 00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:09,760 And all this food is just to produce 100 watts. 547 00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:11,000 That's it. That's what we did. 548 00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:15,800 But if you look at that relative to time, you'll see that it's 549 00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:20,600 the three quarter power. So it's a sublinear growth, 550 00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:24,920 right. It's a sublinear power law and 551 00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:30,680 that so if you can, if you double the size of the animal, 552 00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:37,520 you do not double the, you only have to you only increase the a 553 00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:42,720 metabolic rate by 75%, right. So the bigger the animal, the 554 00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:46,400 more efficient it is. And it it actually, it works 555 00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:51,400 for, you know, even like bacteria all the way up to like 556 00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:53,560 blue whales, yeah. And there's. 557 00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:56,320 Also, I guess a line. Yeah. 558 00:32:56,400 --> 00:32:59,520 And there's also examples of how cities grow in their GDP. 559 00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:04,280 Or yeah, but even number of patents per capita, for example, 560 00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:05,480 things like that. Right. 561 00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:08,280 Wow. But yeah, and so the the the 562 00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:12,240 biggest question I have there, I think what I like about it. 563 00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:15,360 And it's also why I started talking to Giovanni. 564 00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:17,640 I saw his post on Reddit and then I. 565 00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:19,000 Went happy that you're talking to. 566 00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:22,120 Him I went down to power law rabbit hole which was 567 00:33:22,880 --> 00:33:26,560 fascinating so. But what I find difficult with 568 00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:30,400 Bitcoin and I hope to formulate the question right like I see it 569 00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:32,800 as of course it's a network growing right. 570 00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:36,160 It's a network of participants growing. 571 00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:40,280 So it's kind of like similar to perhaps kind of like Moore's law 572 00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:44,120 type type ish. But where? 573 00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:46,800 Where does the power law of Bitcoin come from? 574 00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:50,040 Is that because it's basically like a mind virus, it's like a 575 00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:54,280 social adoption thing? Is it the human behavior type of 576 00:33:54,520 --> 00:34:02,080 element there or is it because Bitcoin is so rooted in in math 577 00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:06,040 and physics as well, like just how how that is engineered does, 578 00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:08,639 does it make any sense to identify those two or like how? 579 00:34:08,639 --> 00:34:10,040 How do you see that? Because that's why. 580 00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:13,560 Why? Why would the number of patents 581 00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:14,800 per user? Why? 582 00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:18,719 Why would the number of patents increase sub linearly with the 583 00:34:18,719 --> 00:34:23,360 amount of users it does? OK, sorry, it's super linearly. 584 00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:25,560 So the amount of patents grows by 20%. 585 00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:28,719 It's true, It's a fact. It's a fact, right? 586 00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:31,000 Why is that so? Why? 587 00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:33,320 Why do these numbers show up? I don't know. 588 00:34:33,679 --> 00:34:35,760 It's just a normal growth kind of curve. 589 00:34:35,800 --> 00:34:38,560 Everything has. Either they grow sub linearly or 590 00:34:38,560 --> 00:34:41,080 super linearly at some rate, yeah. 591 00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:44,440 But is it irrelevant then to talk about this human behavior? 592 00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:46,840 Because the one thing I think about with the power loss of 593 00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:51,480 Bitcoin, right, let's say the in this bull run we go to 500 K 594 00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:54,840 plus, right? There will be a bigger number of 595 00:34:54,840 --> 00:34:58,240 people that will pay attention to Bitcoin because of that than 596 00:34:58,520 --> 00:35:03,720 the amount of people that did at, you know, $0.10 to $10 or 597 00:35:03,720 --> 00:35:06,280 whatever. Probably not, but there will be, 598 00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:07,360 but. That's the point. 599 00:35:07,600 --> 00:35:10,520 That's the point, right? Not on a percentage basis, 600 00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:11,480 right. Exactly. 601 00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:13,760 Yeah. So actually what these power 602 00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:17,120 laws suggest is that there's nothing new under the sun, 603 00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:18,920 right. So and everybody's like, well 604 00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:22,680 ETFs are big, Fred, like I'm like, well, so was Mount Docks 605 00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:26,240 when it came out, right. That was a big thing for Bitcoin 606 00:35:26,240 --> 00:35:30,600 to have an exchange, right. It's you know what I mean or but 607 00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:32,600 at that. Point within that context, with 608 00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:34,320 that amount of users, you say like percent. 609 00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:36,640 So it's not about the absolute numbers, it's more about the 610 00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:39,560 percentages. It's a look, all these things 611 00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:43,000 there's there. It doesn't really matter that 612 00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:48,080 there is now ETFs or. It seems like that. 613 00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:52,640 It's just a general function of time that doesn't depend on 614 00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:54,920 anything else. There's only one variable in it, 615 00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:57,440 which is time. That's the only variable. 616 00:35:57,840 --> 00:35:59,480 Yeah. So basically nothing else. 617 00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:01,800 Yeah. So this is what Jeff Booth says, 618 00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:03,000 right? As long as it stays 619 00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:06,280 decentralized and secure, it will be chugging along and 620 00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:10,240 people will adopt it as it goes, basically. 621 00:36:10,240 --> 00:36:14,880 Yeah, I mean it's there's nothing, there's nothing you or 622 00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:19,960 I can do that's going to change that or or anybody else or ETFs 623 00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:22,800 or it's just a normal growth pattern, right. 624 00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:27,920 And I feel like you know the question is, is sort of why is 625 00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:30,440 it a power law? Well, because I think it's kind 626 00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:33,200 of a natural type phenomenon, right. 627 00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:37,920 It's a, it's a network type thing, but it's it's like cities 628 00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:41,360 or networks or you know animals or networks. 629 00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:44,080 We're networks of cells, right. That's kind of what we are. 630 00:36:44,080 --> 00:36:46,680 We're, you know, we have, we have all these little cells that 631 00:36:46,680 --> 00:36:51,520 make us up trillions of them. And for those cells, we we don't 632 00:36:51,520 --> 00:36:53,400 exist, right. They're just like they're doing 633 00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:54,720 their own thing. Exactly. 634 00:36:54,840 --> 00:36:58,200 And that's true. You know, and so Bitcoin itself 635 00:36:58,480 --> 00:37:04,000 is, you know, the growth of Bitcoin as as a store of value 636 00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:10,560 and stuff is, is it's just, it's clearly has its own clear path 637 00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:16,240 and other other cryptocurrencies don't, right. 638 00:37:16,240 --> 00:37:21,480 So if you look at Litecoin, for example, the price of Litecoin 639 00:37:21,480 --> 00:37:24,880 is not a power law. OK, Right. 640 00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:28,960 And I mean the price of Litecoin, Litecoin was is lower 641 00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:31,800 than it was in 2017 right now. Yeah. 642 00:37:32,920 --> 00:37:35,480 And would you agree? That Litecoin is not growing as 643 00:37:35,480 --> 00:37:37,400 a power law. So yeah, you know. 644 00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:41,400 But would you agree then? Do you agree then that the price 645 00:37:41,400 --> 00:37:44,760 is like a proxy of the adoption also or not? 646 00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:49,480 I think, yeah, I think there's all there's there's, that's the 647 00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:54,000 crazy thing, which is that the price of Bitcoin was known to be 648 00:37:54,000 --> 00:38:02,960 a power law first, right? But then, you know, the hash 649 00:38:02,960 --> 00:38:05,360 rate of Bitcoin is also a power law. 650 00:38:06,280 --> 00:38:10,880 And furthermore the the amount of the usage of Bitcoin's a 651 00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:12,640 power law. So there's all the, there's 652 00:38:12,640 --> 00:38:14,840 power loss everywhere in Bitcoin. 653 00:38:15,200 --> 00:38:19,680 It's not just prop price, it's there's all all kinds of power 654 00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:21,440 laws. In fact, there's even power laws 655 00:38:21,480 --> 00:38:24,160 of power laws. So if you look at the amount of 656 00:38:24,160 --> 00:38:31,040 Bitcoin that the growth rate of Bitcoin for Bitcoin wallets, 657 00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:34,720 having one Bitcoin, 110th of a Bitcoin, 100th of a Bitcoin, 658 00:38:34,720 --> 00:38:38,960 etcetera, that's also a power law of of Bitcoin. 659 00:38:39,960 --> 00:38:42,840 What I'm just trying to say is there's all these intrinsic 660 00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:46,040 power laws which just tell you that you're looking at a 661 00:38:46,040 --> 00:38:49,560 network, you're looking at this growth of a network. 662 00:38:49,560 --> 00:38:51,400 And there's a lot of different ways you can look at it. 663 00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:54,720 And there's power laws at every single one of those points, 664 00:38:54,720 --> 00:38:56,360 right? Whether it's Ashray, whether 665 00:38:56,360 --> 00:39:00,000 it's usage, whether it's price, it's all connected. 666 00:39:00,560 --> 00:39:03,600 And so what's the biggest difference with like the classic 667 00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:06,840 S curve of of technology adoption than here like is that 668 00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:09,000 something we should let go? I mean, there's people that. 669 00:39:09,120 --> 00:39:11,800 Don't follow. I mean it's probably ultimately 670 00:39:11,800 --> 00:39:15,280 going to be an S curve, right, But we're still in the very 671 00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:21,200 early phases, right. So you know, I would say roughly 672 00:39:21,200 --> 00:39:27,680 Speaking of kind of like how close are we to the end 1%, you 673 00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:28,200 know? Yeah. 674 00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:31,000 Yeah. We are at 1%, you mean, Yeah. 675 00:39:31,520 --> 00:39:34,560 Maybe, maybe not even 1%, right? So I. 676 00:39:34,600 --> 00:39:35,600 Agree with. I agree. 677 00:39:35,600 --> 00:39:38,400 So when you look at. Too early to talk about S curve 678 00:39:38,400 --> 00:39:39,840 adoption then, but. Right. 679 00:39:39,840 --> 00:39:43,600 Well, a friend of mine, Steven Paranoid, He's, you know, he's 680 00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:46,920 an astrophysicist, right? And he's actually even model 681 00:39:46,920 --> 00:39:50,720 like S curves that actually look like power laws in the very 682 00:39:50,720 --> 00:39:54,360 early phase, they're identical to power laws and then they turn 683 00:39:54,360 --> 00:39:58,080 into S curves, right. So you can model these things 684 00:39:58,080 --> 00:40:02,480 with an S curve. But realistically we're probably 685 00:40:02,480 --> 00:40:06,320 10 years away from the S curve stuff even starting to become an 686 00:40:06,320 --> 00:40:09,360 S You know it looks, it looks like that and then it sort of 687 00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:12,000 has an inflection point, it bends, right. 688 00:40:12,760 --> 00:40:15,480 But we're not to that, we're not even to the, we're still in the 689 00:40:15,480 --> 00:40:22,880 very early phases, you know, so we're 1% of the way in, I mean 690 00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:24,320 realistically. Yeah. 691 00:40:24,640 --> 00:40:28,720 And probably in terms of time where, you know, we probably 692 00:40:28,720 --> 00:40:35,320 have at least one decade before we stop power law growth at all. 693 00:40:36,560 --> 00:40:38,640 OK. So we're going to grow pretty 694 00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:41,320 much exponentially for the next decade. 695 00:40:42,160 --> 00:40:44,000 I mean very close to exponential. 696 00:40:45,400 --> 00:40:48,000 And would this be your main argument against people who say 697 00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:50,680 you know Bitcoin is too volatile for to be a predictable, 698 00:40:50,760 --> 00:40:53,400 predictable store value? It kind of depends on what your 699 00:40:53,400 --> 00:40:55,040 time frame is then, right? If. 700 00:40:55,040 --> 00:40:57,160 No, I mean, I think it's sort of like this. 701 00:40:57,160 --> 00:41:02,480 It's sort of like, here's the thing, let's if you took, if 702 00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:10,480 you, if you're looking at an asset that is sort of growing at 703 00:41:10,480 --> 00:41:15,200 some linear rate, right, and it is oscillating around this 704 00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:20,800 linear rate, I would say, yeah, it's way too volatile, right? 705 00:41:21,120 --> 00:41:25,880 Like why would I want an asset if I said, OK, I'm going to, you 706 00:41:25,880 --> 00:41:29,360 can either invest in something that's going to go up 10% a year 707 00:41:29,640 --> 00:41:33,120 almost guaranteed, right? Or you can get an asset that's 708 00:41:33,120 --> 00:41:39,760 going to grow 40% a year ±4040%. Now you're like, well, I'll take 709 00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:42,040 the 10%. I'll take the 10% for sure, 710 00:41:42,040 --> 00:41:44,680 right? Like my house on the canals in 711 00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:47,000 Netherlands, right? That thing's probably going to 712 00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:49,840 grow up 10% a year, maybe 7%, right? 713 00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:53,320 That sounds a lot safer than something that's going to might 714 00:41:53,320 --> 00:41:56,760 go down 40%, right? But that's not the correct way 715 00:41:56,760 --> 00:41:59,520 of looking at it. It's not like it's a linear 716 00:41:59,520 --> 00:42:03,200 thing that's going to be, it's actually an exponential thing, 717 00:42:03,280 --> 00:42:07,920 right? So because it's exponential, not 718 00:42:07,920 --> 00:42:11,560 linear, right? It's not just volatility around 719 00:42:11,560 --> 00:42:15,520 a linear path, it's volatility around an exponential path. 720 00:42:16,080 --> 00:42:21,320 So if somebody said, well, you have this exponential asset 721 00:42:21,400 --> 00:42:25,600 which has some volatility around an exponential path, do you want 722 00:42:25,600 --> 00:42:27,840 that you should be like, of course I want that. 723 00:42:27,840 --> 00:42:30,880 It's great. This thing is going to be in the 724 00:42:30,880 --> 00:42:34,120 next Microsoft, right? I'm buying Microsoft in 1986. 725 00:42:34,200 --> 00:42:36,360 Great. Like I don't care what the 726 00:42:36,360 --> 00:42:39,920 volatility is, if I buy Microsoft at 8 and around 86, 727 00:42:40,560 --> 00:42:45,200 you know, Microsoft went up you know, 3000 times from 1986 till 728 00:42:45,200 --> 00:42:50,560 now, you know, so Bitcoin is, is, is, it's on a very high 729 00:42:50,560 --> 00:42:54,160 growth trajectory, right. And it's not just a linear 730 00:42:54,160 --> 00:42:58,560 growth, it's it's going to grow a lot compounded really high, 731 00:42:58,720 --> 00:43:02,800 right. So, you know, this is something 732 00:43:02,800 --> 00:43:06,360 that's going to go up 10X20X from where we are now. 733 00:43:07,560 --> 00:43:11,320 And so because it's going to go up 10X20X, you're going to get a 734 00:43:11,320 --> 00:43:14,920 massive amount of volatility because it's growing at the 735 00:43:14,920 --> 00:43:19,960 Super linear way, you know, not just even X ^2, it's growing at 736 00:43:19,960 --> 00:43:24,400 X to the power 6. So you know, if you see 737 00:43:24,400 --> 00:43:27,520 something that's growing at X to the power six, you absolutely 738 00:43:27,520 --> 00:43:29,280 should own that thing. Yeah. 739 00:43:29,840 --> 00:43:32,120 So what's? You, you just have to get it in 740 00:43:32,120 --> 00:43:34,000 your head. This thing's growing at X to the 741 00:43:34,000 --> 00:43:36,760 power of 6. OK, I'm going to own that way, 742 00:43:36,960 --> 00:43:37,440 you know? Yeah. 743 00:43:38,080 --> 00:43:41,720 That's, that's huge. So what do you think about then 744 00:43:41,720 --> 00:43:44,280 last question about this, like people talk a lot about, you 745 00:43:44,280 --> 00:43:46,520 know, diminishing returns. Like if they look at the 746 00:43:46,520 --> 00:43:51,320 previous cycles you see like there was like third, I don't 747 00:43:51,320 --> 00:43:57,160 know, X 1000% up, then X 100% up, then like 110% up. 748 00:43:57,160 --> 00:44:01,320 Now is that going to go down? Because like in my mind, I think 749 00:44:02,200 --> 00:44:06,120 I, I, I think that I don't know if they were going to go down. 750 00:44:06,120 --> 00:44:09,240 Because at one point, if the adoption grows and people 751 00:44:09,240 --> 00:44:13,720 understand what this is, my logical reasoning is less people 752 00:44:13,720 --> 00:44:17,400 will sell into, you know, the boot, you know, the boom and 753 00:44:17,400 --> 00:44:22,240 bust that I mean, I can. Tell you what, statistically 754 00:44:22,240 --> 00:44:26,120 it's doing right? Statistically, the volatility, 755 00:44:26,520 --> 00:44:30,880 well, it's growing in an exponential rate, the the a 756 00:44:30,880 --> 00:44:33,880 quasi exponential rate. So power law is very similar to 757 00:44:33,880 --> 00:44:39,600 an exponential rate except the exponential curve is growing 758 00:44:39,600 --> 00:44:43,000 down. So in 2017 the growth rate was 759 00:44:43,000 --> 00:44:46,480 100%. Now the growth rate's like 45%, 760 00:44:47,880 --> 00:44:51,080 OK. In 20 years the growth rate will 761 00:44:51,080 --> 00:44:53,400 be 20%. That's kind of what the, the 762 00:44:53,400 --> 00:44:56,640 power law tells you. So it's still going to be 30% 763 00:44:56,640 --> 00:45:02,640 growth in you know in 10 years. So it's still so. 764 00:45:03,160 --> 00:45:06,200 So it's still going to be a very, very high growth thing for 765 00:45:06,200 --> 00:45:09,680 10 years. You know you you're getting a 766 00:45:09,680 --> 00:45:12,920 very, very high growth thing. The volatility is going down a 767 00:45:12,920 --> 00:45:15,480 little bit, but not that much, right. 768 00:45:15,480 --> 00:45:22,640 So the volatility has gone from .3 in log terms to .25, not even 769 00:45:22,640 --> 00:45:26,720 that much. So I think that realistically we 770 00:45:26,720 --> 00:45:34,240 can expect, you know, high, high volatility and high growth for 771 00:45:34,240 --> 00:45:37,480 the next decade. And by the way, because we're 772 00:45:37,480 --> 00:45:42,760 now looking at these numbers on a much bigger scale, you know, I 773 00:45:42,760 --> 00:45:45,400 think it's going to look like it's going to be crazy. 774 00:45:45,400 --> 00:45:48,560 I mean, it's going to be like Bitcoin went from 500,000 to 775 00:45:48,560 --> 00:45:52,080 200,000, you know what I mean? That's going to appear like 776 00:45:52,080 --> 00:45:54,680 people are just not going to get their their heads around that 777 00:45:55,480 --> 00:45:58,920 because it's going to seem so crazy going from 500,000 to 778 00:45:58,920 --> 00:46:01,800 200,000. But that's only, you know, 779 00:46:01,800 --> 00:46:04,520 that's one standard deviation, right? 780 00:46:05,200 --> 00:46:08,520 That's like 1 standard deviation is I dropped by half. 781 00:46:09,360 --> 00:46:12,280 OK. That's not not terrible. 782 00:46:12,360 --> 00:46:16,000 You know what I mean? Especially if I if I overshot on 783 00:46:16,000 --> 00:46:19,520 the upside, I might go from 500,000 to 125,000. 784 00:46:20,040 --> 00:46:22,600 Yeah, I think that's what Giovanni says too, right? 785 00:46:22,600 --> 00:46:29,240 Like his downside is like half of the of of the trend line and 786 00:46:29,240 --> 00:46:32,560 his upside is like 1.5 ish or something, right? 787 00:46:32,560 --> 00:46:33,680 Yeah. Yeah. 788 00:46:33,680 --> 00:46:36,920 But I mean, we could go, you know, we could go well above the 789 00:46:36,920 --> 00:46:39,800 trend line, right? We could go two times and 790 00:46:40,080 --> 00:46:44,320 there's twice we've gone 2X the trend line, which then puts a 791 00:46:44,360 --> 00:46:50,080 downside to 75% drop, right. So you could go down, you know, 792 00:46:50,080 --> 00:46:54,640 you could go up conceivably to 500,000 then drop to 125,000. 793 00:46:57,000 --> 00:47:00,720 It's really hard to get an intuitive number without looking 794 00:47:00,720 --> 00:47:03,920 at the the actual math and looking at the thing in in log 795 00:47:03,920 --> 00:47:06,560 space. Your intuition will be wrong all 796 00:47:06,560 --> 00:47:09,640 the time. Yeah, I think this is a great 797 00:47:09,880 --> 00:47:16,000 tool to help you remember what this is, right, to emphasize 798 00:47:16,000 --> 00:47:18,360 what this is, because I think you can study Bitcoin and you 799 00:47:18,360 --> 00:47:20,920 get to a certain understanding. I mean, this is what I do like, 800 00:47:20,920 --> 00:47:24,360 I I still feel it when the price goes down a bit, but then I just 801 00:47:24,360 --> 00:47:27,400 reiterate like, oh, this is the stuff I know and nothing's 802 00:47:27,400 --> 00:47:29,160 changed, right? Like nothing fundamentally. 803 00:47:29,160 --> 00:47:31,440 Changed it's sort of like. This is the same thing. 804 00:47:31,960 --> 00:47:35,280 If you learn to fly a plane, you you have to learn to trust the 805 00:47:35,280 --> 00:47:39,120 instruments a little bit. You know what I mean or driving 806 00:47:39,120 --> 00:47:42,080 a car you you know you're you look at the speedometer you look 807 00:47:42,080 --> 00:47:46,680 at like the RPM you sort of see you have to like trust a little 808 00:47:46,680 --> 00:47:52,880 bit and like OK this is this is what I the past behavior. 809 00:47:52,880 --> 00:47:58,160 This is what I expect. Now I I have to learn to trust 810 00:47:58,160 --> 00:48:03,000 the instruments a little bit and I think that's that's where 811 00:48:03,000 --> 00:48:06,280 you're going to get freaked out. If you, if you don't have any 812 00:48:06,280 --> 00:48:09,640 basis for this stuff, you're just going to, you're just going 813 00:48:09,640 --> 00:48:13,720 to be like, OK, went down a lot. Looks like it's going to 0. 814 00:48:13,880 --> 00:48:17,160 I'm out. Yeah, all right. 815 00:48:18,400 --> 00:48:21,240 I have another. I have another subject I I saw 816 00:48:21,320 --> 00:48:26,240 you tweet about gold and you know, some people argue against 817 00:48:26,240 --> 00:48:28,800 Bitcoin and say, you know, at least you can hold gold 818 00:48:28,800 --> 00:48:31,080 physically and you can store it physically. 819 00:48:31,080 --> 00:48:32,600 Like, you cannot do that with Bitcoin. 820 00:48:32,600 --> 00:48:37,640 Like, I would argue that Bitcoin is like metaphysical, you know, 821 00:48:37,640 --> 00:48:41,120 But in fact it's also tangible because you know it. 822 00:48:41,400 --> 00:48:44,320 It's verifiably, it's just math. And the fact that letters and 823 00:48:44,320 --> 00:48:47,400 numbers represent all the Bitcoin there is, like in some 824 00:48:47,400 --> 00:48:50,200 way it is tangible. And I can write down a private 825 00:48:50,200 --> 00:48:54,880 key with a pen on the paper and that can represent real like you 826 00:48:54,880 --> 00:48:56,520 can hold a billion dollars in your hands. 827 00:48:56,520 --> 00:48:59,600 Like how how do you view this when people say this like I I? 828 00:48:59,880 --> 00:49:03,120 Mean I It just seems to me the person who said that is is the 829 00:49:03,120 --> 00:49:06,280 head of Goldman Sachs's wealth management unit. 830 00:49:07,320 --> 00:49:11,000 So it's like something is wrong if she thinks that you can't 831 00:49:11,000 --> 00:49:14,200 hold Bitcoin. It just to me it's like it's 832 00:49:14,200 --> 00:49:18,960 insane that somebody who has that position right who's 833 00:49:18,960 --> 00:49:23,880 advising literally trillions of dollars of money that is that 834 00:49:23,880 --> 00:49:27,080 she does not understand even that you can hold Bitcoin in a 835 00:49:27,080 --> 00:49:31,040 wallet. Yeah, well, it's, you know, it's 836 00:49:32,080 --> 00:49:38,840 it's the amount of of just lack of understanding is just 837 00:49:38,840 --> 00:49:42,400 unbelievable to me, you know? Is this, is this, as a Wall 838 00:49:42,400 --> 00:49:46,240 Street veteran, is this on purpose? 839 00:49:46,240 --> 00:49:49,280 Like, do they not understand? Like, I I agree, right. 840 00:49:49,280 --> 00:49:52,880 Like if this is your life, if this is your work and there's a 841 00:49:52,880 --> 00:49:56,800 new form of money. Yeah, that is adopted by your 842 00:49:56,800 --> 00:49:59,960 biggest competitors in a sense. How? 843 00:49:59,960 --> 00:50:03,280 How I I can I I mean, I worked in Treadfy as well. 844 00:50:03,280 --> 00:50:06,360 I cannot imagine there's a research team researching this, 845 00:50:06,440 --> 00:50:09,440 right? Like, are they so ignorant? 846 00:50:09,840 --> 00:50:11,400 Yeah. Really. 847 00:50:11,800 --> 00:50:16,720 Or is this this is just show look like what? 848 00:50:16,720 --> 00:50:18,160 Else would I say, that's what I mean. 849 00:50:18,240 --> 00:50:22,600 You know, there's a lot of people who who don't, they don't 850 00:50:22,600 --> 00:50:25,920 like to get their hands dirty. You know, I'll tell you a funny 851 00:50:25,920 --> 00:50:29,760 story. I sold a company to a social 852 00:50:29,760 --> 00:50:34,480 network to Viacom, OK. And it was a pretty significant, 853 00:50:34,560 --> 00:50:40,200 you know, amount of money like mid 8 figures, you know and you 854 00:50:40,200 --> 00:50:44,120 know, and I talked to the CFO of Viacom, Viacom's MTV, right. 855 00:50:44,840 --> 00:50:47,240 And I'm like, have you ever tried our product? 856 00:50:47,280 --> 00:50:52,400 And he's like, no. I got like, I'm like he goes, 857 00:50:52,400 --> 00:50:55,000 no, I don't do that. I don't actually try things. 858 00:50:55,160 --> 00:50:58,920 And I'm like, I know, but I've been, I've been like, in due 859 00:50:58,920 --> 00:51:00,960 diligence for like 6 months with you. 860 00:51:01,720 --> 00:51:05,040 We do all these meetings. You do this, you know, dozens of 861 00:51:05,040 --> 00:51:08,280 lawyers, all this stuff. You we've worked on, all these 862 00:51:08,280 --> 00:51:11,440 fine prints of this. Have you never even actually 863 00:51:11,440 --> 00:51:13,800 created a profile? I don't care if it's a real one 864 00:51:13,800 --> 00:51:17,160 under your own name or whatever, but have you, you know, no, 865 00:51:17,160 --> 00:51:18,400 absolutely not. I don't. 866 00:51:18,480 --> 00:51:20,680 I'm not a guy doing social networking. 867 00:51:21,560 --> 00:51:23,960 And I think the same thing is true for Goldman Sachs. 868 00:51:23,960 --> 00:51:28,920 I mean I guarantee you that woman has not created a Bitcoin 869 00:51:28,920 --> 00:51:31,520 wallet. Now she can pontificate all she 870 00:51:31,520 --> 00:51:35,840 wants about Bitcoin wallets, but she doesn't know what a Bitcoin 871 00:51:36,040 --> 00:51:39,680 wallet is. She's never actually stored 872 00:51:39,680 --> 00:51:41,520 Bitcoin. Otherwise she wouldn't be saying 873 00:51:41,520 --> 00:51:48,240 that she it's a it's a it's typical you know I I'll leave 874 00:51:48,240 --> 00:51:50,680 that to some younger people they'll they'll do the actual 875 00:51:50,680 --> 00:51:52,360 work. I'll just look at read some 876 00:51:52,360 --> 00:51:55,440 article and I'll make some statements. 877 00:51:55,840 --> 00:51:57,400 Yeah. So but how? 878 00:51:58,160 --> 00:52:00,240 Yeah. Well, how do you view BlackRock 879 00:52:00,240 --> 00:52:04,080 getting into this? Like my idea here is I I kind of 880 00:52:04,080 --> 00:52:08,200 see the the the Bitcoin adoption of well, at least a part of Wall 881 00:52:08,200 --> 00:52:11,840 Street kind of like a Trojan horse in a sense. 882 00:52:11,840 --> 00:52:16,080 Like for me, it's very fascinating that a huge winner 883 00:52:16,080 --> 00:52:22,000 of the Fiat financial system, you know, is already one leg 884 00:52:22,000 --> 00:52:24,680 into this new money system. I mean, like, usually the 885 00:52:24,680 --> 00:52:27,920 winners move last, right? They cash, they milk their cash 886 00:52:27,920 --> 00:52:31,480 cow and then they move on kind of like, well, this Goldman 887 00:52:31,480 --> 00:52:35,640 Sachs lady or Vanguard, right? Like these people, they they're 888 00:52:35,640 --> 00:52:41,000 just pushing this away. But I think that's what's 889 00:52:41,040 --> 00:52:42,760 British huddle. I heard him once say, like, if 890 00:52:42,760 --> 00:52:46,600 you don't think there's like a team of 50 people figuring out 891 00:52:46,600 --> 00:52:49,280 what this Bitcoin thing is for the past two years, you're five 892 00:52:49,280 --> 00:52:51,680 years at BlackRock. You know you're crazy. 893 00:52:51,680 --> 00:52:55,040 And I definitely agree. Like, they totally understand 894 00:52:55,040 --> 00:52:57,280 what this is. Of course they can make money 895 00:52:57,280 --> 00:52:59,680 off it, so they make a product for it, etc. 896 00:53:00,120 --> 00:53:04,960 But still, the fact that they actually moved here for me is a 897 00:53:04,960 --> 00:53:08,480 very big signal because the winners usually move last, 898 00:53:08,680 --> 00:53:10,400 right. So how do you see this 899 00:53:10,400 --> 00:53:14,200 comparison to like these these firms that don't move and 900 00:53:14,200 --> 00:53:16,040 actually talk against it and these other firms? 901 00:53:16,040 --> 00:53:18,120 Well, if you hear Larry Fink talk as. 902 00:53:18,120 --> 00:53:21,200 Well, totally. Well, especially if you listen 903 00:53:21,200 --> 00:53:25,080 to him talk like five years ago. Exactly. 904 00:53:25,080 --> 00:53:26,240 Yes. Right. 905 00:53:26,520 --> 00:53:32,320 Because he completely has 180. You know, apparently it's some 906 00:53:32,320 --> 00:53:36,280 young guy working at BlackRock who who weren't spelled in. 907 00:53:36,880 --> 00:53:41,720 Yeah, you know, yeah, exactly. Yeah. 908 00:53:41,880 --> 00:53:46,640 You know, look, I think it's, you know, it is like this with 909 00:53:46,640 --> 00:53:50,000 somebody, you know, it's a personal thing. 910 00:53:50,000 --> 00:53:52,480 You know, I think Larry Fink personally got it. 911 00:53:52,560 --> 00:53:56,040 You know, he personally understood this stuff, whereas I 912 00:53:56,040 --> 00:53:59,080 don't think he personally understood it five years ago, 913 00:53:59,200 --> 00:54:02,800 you know what I mean? So I do think I do think he he 914 00:54:02,800 --> 00:54:06,600 he was orange filled in the in the kind of conventional sense 915 00:54:07,360 --> 00:54:12,320 and he was like ah hmm OK and not just for Bitcoin right. 916 00:54:12,320 --> 00:54:16,080 But I think like you know he he has this idea of tokenization 917 00:54:16,080 --> 00:54:22,600 and you know stocks also on you know on on the blockchain which 918 00:54:22,600 --> 00:54:26,080 you know I I don't think even is a bad idea long longer term. 919 00:54:26,080 --> 00:54:31,680 But what I'm saying is like, I think, I think he, he realized 920 00:54:31,720 --> 00:54:36,960 that this is, this is, this is the future and he better get on 921 00:54:36,960 --> 00:54:42,680 board and own the future, yeah, before somebody else decides to 922 00:54:42,680 --> 00:54:47,480 do it to him, so. Well, maybe easier in some sense 923 00:54:47,480 --> 00:54:51,960 for him that he's the founder of this firm, of course. 924 00:54:51,960 --> 00:54:54,640 And then, you know, the woman at Goldman Sachs or the CEO of 925 00:54:54,640 --> 00:54:57,320 Thank Art is not. So maybe there's also a 926 00:54:57,320 --> 00:55:00,080 different kind of like structure there of course as to. 927 00:55:00,120 --> 00:55:04,080 I mean, I've met Larry Fink. I mean I I actually worked for 928 00:55:04,080 --> 00:55:08,240 him for a day, you know, so back in the day, so yeah. 929 00:55:08,320 --> 00:55:13,760 So look, I mean he's he's a very, very smart guy and you 930 00:55:13,760 --> 00:55:20,800 know he is, he is, he's a visionary, not just and he's a 931 00:55:20,800 --> 00:55:23,320 visionary. He was a visionary in terms of 932 00:55:23,880 --> 00:55:29,520 financialization of assets you know creating the first CMO that 933 00:55:29,520 --> 00:55:32,480 was that was an absolutely masterful move. 934 00:55:32,480 --> 00:55:36,440 You know doing that with Lunari, it was at Solomon at the time 935 00:55:36,440 --> 00:55:43,520 where I was and you know and then embracing ETFs you know and 936 00:55:43,520 --> 00:55:46,400 buying I shares, he bought I shares from Barclay, right. 937 00:55:47,200 --> 00:55:54,720 So you know that was seeing that ETFs were the future was was you 938 00:55:54,720 --> 00:56:00,400 know critical right. And so I think you know it it's 939 00:56:00,440 --> 00:56:03,840 it's it's similar to Bezos realizing that e-commerce is 940 00:56:03,840 --> 00:56:07,520 going to be huge, right. But when he did, I think, you 941 00:56:07,520 --> 00:56:11,560 know, I think he has the right view of wait a second, what's 942 00:56:11,560 --> 00:56:14,520 the most important thing? ETFs are the most important 943 00:56:14,520 --> 00:56:14,800 thing. Boom. 944 00:56:15,240 --> 00:56:19,240 I'm going to, I'm going to get an ETF, I'm going to provide 945 00:56:19,840 --> 00:56:23,040 super low cost friction ETFs for everything. 946 00:56:24,640 --> 00:56:26,520 Brilliant. So I mean that's, you know, he, 947 00:56:26,520 --> 00:56:29,040 he, he, he saw that he did that, right. 948 00:56:29,640 --> 00:56:32,680 And that's what kind of BlackRock made its mark really, 949 00:56:32,680 --> 00:56:38,360 you know, as, you know the ETF Superstore, right? 950 00:56:39,160 --> 00:56:43,080 Well, and if you keep on this view of of that you have of 951 00:56:43,080 --> 00:56:46,080 Larry Fink like I have AI. Don't know if it's a strange 952 00:56:46,120 --> 00:56:48,680 theory, but I have a certain theory and maybe it's too big 953 00:56:48,680 --> 00:56:52,560 and it doesn't make sense. But what I'm thinking from my 954 00:56:52,560 --> 00:56:55,280 point of view, but I think you can add to this like the, the, 955 00:56:55,640 --> 00:56:58,320 you know, the speculative attack story of George Soros and the 956 00:56:58,320 --> 00:57:03,120 Bank of England, right? Larry Fink knows what's up with 957 00:57:03,120 --> 00:57:05,240 the dollar, I assume. Right. 958 00:57:05,280 --> 00:57:06,600 He totally understands this, right? 959 00:57:07,000 --> 00:57:09,560 Would you say, could this already be like some sort of 960 00:57:09,560 --> 00:57:13,160 speculative attack on the dollar in a sense that he has this like 961 00:57:13,440 --> 00:57:19,520 one leg in this new money system that let's say when the dollar 962 00:57:19,520 --> 00:57:22,760 actually breaks, that he is already with one leg in a 963 00:57:22,760 --> 00:57:25,880 certain lifeboat, which also gives him a certain amount of 964 00:57:26,280 --> 00:57:28,880 influence, right. I mean, yesterday we saw the US 965 00:57:28,880 --> 00:57:31,960 government again sell 30,000 Bitcoin like they're they're, 966 00:57:31,960 --> 00:57:33,080 they're selling it like. Crazy. 967 00:57:33,520 --> 00:57:34,880 Could this be? Something like that. 968 00:57:35,560 --> 00:57:37,960 Look, he knows more than anybody else, right? 969 00:57:37,960 --> 00:57:40,440 Because kind of when QE happened, right? 970 00:57:40,440 --> 00:57:46,680 And then when when you know the latest kind of, you know, the 971 00:57:46,680 --> 00:57:49,560 latest version of QE came, they said hey BlackRock, you're going 972 00:57:49,560 --> 00:57:51,640 to do all the bond buying for us, right. 973 00:57:53,160 --> 00:57:57,920 And so he, he's got the front row seat so he sees the problem 974 00:57:58,640 --> 00:58:02,040 way before we do and and much closer than we do. 975 00:58:02,760 --> 00:58:05,560 So, yeah, I I don't, I don't know if he's trying to attack 976 00:58:05,560 --> 00:58:10,040 the dollar so much as I think he has a better view of kind of the 977 00:58:10,040 --> 00:58:14,040 problems in the current system than than anybody. 978 00:58:14,760 --> 00:58:23,240 And and I think you know, I think he realizes that this is 979 00:58:23,240 --> 00:58:28,240 going to be a very, very significant asset class for the 980 00:58:28,240 --> 00:58:32,360 next 10 years. I think that these guys think 10 981 00:58:32,360 --> 00:58:35,640 years in advance. You know and I think sort of 982 00:58:35,640 --> 00:58:38,600 like the Japanese used to do those you know five year plans 983 00:58:38,600 --> 00:58:41,640 and stuff, I think they've now shifted. 984 00:58:41,720 --> 00:58:45,720 They're like, OK, Bitcoin and and crypto, right. 985 00:58:45,720 --> 00:58:49,720 I think he's definitely thinking both and, you know, 986 00:58:49,720 --> 00:58:54,480 tokenization, you know, let's, let's see, you know, if they 987 00:58:54,480 --> 00:58:58,440 don't allow ETH this year, fine. We'll just wait until next year 988 00:58:58,440 --> 00:59:00,520 or two years from now when they, you know, maybe it's the new 989 00:59:00,520 --> 00:59:03,280 head of the SEC, maybe it's the new president, whatever it is, 990 00:59:03,960 --> 00:59:10,720 Yeah, but I definitely think that, I mean, I think he's in it 991 00:59:10,720 --> 00:59:13,000 for the long game, right. And. 992 00:59:13,760 --> 00:59:18,920 And so, yeah, yeah, I think it may perhaps attack It was a was 993 00:59:18,920 --> 00:59:20,200 a not. Really attack? 994 00:59:20,200 --> 00:59:21,880 Too hard word was a too hard word. 995 00:59:21,880 --> 00:59:26,480 But it's it's it is a certain strategy against it, I'd say if 996 00:59:26,480 --> 00:59:29,800 you adopt this new money, right. But it's just interesting to 997 00:59:29,800 --> 00:59:31,240 think about. I think it's just interesting he 998 00:59:31,240 --> 00:59:35,920 moved anyway. So yeah, for me, that's a big. 999 00:59:36,080 --> 00:59:40,080 I definitely think that if you had any question about whether 1000 00:59:40,080 --> 00:59:44,640 it's going to be, is Bitcoin going to survive, the fact that 1001 00:59:44,680 --> 00:59:49,680 BlackRock has put their, you know, their stake in the ground 1002 00:59:49,920 --> 00:59:52,480 tells you that 100% is going to survive. 1003 00:59:52,680 --> 00:59:55,280 Like, yeah, there's no doubt in my mind, right? 1004 00:59:55,400 --> 00:59:57,920 Yeah. I agree and this is also how I 1005 00:59:57,920 --> 01:00:01,040 always saw Bitcoin. It's an well, it was an 1006 01:00:01,040 --> 01:00:05,840 experiment I'd say and it would go to 0 or it would be like the 1007 01:00:05,840 --> 01:00:09,400 black hole value type theory and it's not going to. 1008 01:00:10,320 --> 01:00:12,440 To 0 anymore. So I agree with that. 1009 01:00:12,440 --> 01:00:15,600 But yeah, I think the outlook should be long, right? 1010 01:00:15,600 --> 01:00:17,240 You should have like a long term vision. 1011 01:00:17,240 --> 01:00:19,760 And that's actually, I want to ask you a question about this 1012 01:00:19,760 --> 01:00:22,760 because I saw you tweeted something that I really agreed 1013 01:00:22,760 --> 01:00:26,960 with and you said I was a tread fight, Deegan like a degenerate. 1014 01:00:26,960 --> 01:00:30,680 Then slowly I kicked the habit and instead of trading or making 1015 01:00:30,680 --> 01:00:32,760 bets I moved into long term investing. 1016 01:00:33,400 --> 01:00:36,800 I also saw that you had like a crypto related project before 1017 01:00:36,800 --> 01:00:40,040 with a token. I mean I made a crypto market 1018 01:00:40,040 --> 01:00:42,760 research platform that that failed before. 1019 01:00:42,760 --> 01:00:45,320 You know like like we dabbled around in this too. 1020 01:00:45,320 --> 01:00:50,840 But how did you move from being a Deegan, A degenerate to be 1021 01:00:50,840 --> 01:00:52,520 like a long term investor? Etcetera. 1022 01:00:52,520 --> 01:00:57,240 You know, I, I don't know for crypto, you know, called Lynx. 1023 01:00:57,240 --> 01:01:03,120 And so I was very and I was convinced back in 2018-2019 that 1024 01:01:03,120 --> 01:01:07,760 you know if the sort of the multi coin Solana type thesis 1025 01:01:07,760 --> 01:01:11,400 fast, super fast blah blah blah is is good. 1026 01:01:12,000 --> 01:01:16,400 I'm still not anti token or anti any of these things. 1027 01:01:16,400 --> 01:01:22,400 I think you know I'm not I just think that I'm I'm sort of a I'm 1028 01:01:22,400 --> 01:01:26,680 a Bitcoin maximalist in that I think no other coin is going to 1029 01:01:27,240 --> 01:01:30,880 is going to be money, right. There's no, there's no 1030 01:01:30,880 --> 01:01:36,680 possibility that, you know, people start, you know, having 1031 01:01:37,680 --> 01:01:40,560 prices in ETH in the next 10 years. 1032 01:01:40,560 --> 01:01:44,280 You know, that's that's nobody's going to do oil settlements in 1033 01:01:44,280 --> 01:01:45,680 ETH. So it's not going to happen, 1034 01:01:45,680 --> 01:01:48,040 right? Or or Solana or anything else, 1035 01:01:48,040 --> 01:01:49,760 right. Those are not going to become 1036 01:01:49,760 --> 01:01:52,400 world money. They are going to be useful. 1037 01:01:52,400 --> 01:01:54,680 There's a lot of use for some things like this. 1038 01:01:55,800 --> 01:01:59,000 They're just not money, right? And so the way I look at it is, 1039 01:02:01,400 --> 01:02:05,040 you know, a lot of these things are actually useful for. 1040 01:02:05,040 --> 01:02:08,280 I mean, even NFTS are quite people like them, right? 1041 01:02:08,280 --> 01:02:10,560 They're they're useful. They can be. 1042 01:02:10,600 --> 01:02:14,080 They can be used for art. They can be used for, for a lot 1043 01:02:14,080 --> 01:02:16,000 of things potentially, right. We're still at the very 1044 01:02:16,000 --> 01:02:18,520 beginning of that. You know, like Larry thinks 1045 01:02:18,520 --> 01:02:22,440 there's enough tokenization. You know, I have a friend who's 1046 01:02:22,440 --> 01:02:27,760 doing, you know, a property thing, Natalie from Propy, 1047 01:02:27,840 --> 01:02:30,000 right? She's doing, you know real 1048 01:02:30,000 --> 01:02:32,640 estate on the blockchain. Yeah, it's still very early 1049 01:02:32,640 --> 01:02:35,720 days, but she's doing it. She's, you know they they've had 1050 01:02:36,600 --> 01:02:39,160 apartment buildings or houses that have been sold, you know 1051 01:02:39,200 --> 01:02:43,480 entirely, entirely the whole, the whole chain of command is 1052 01:02:43,480 --> 01:02:46,160 you know title everything on on blockchain. 1053 01:02:46,760 --> 01:02:51,280 So I'm not anti token and I think, you know a lot of people 1054 01:02:51,280 --> 01:02:53,760 are saying, well Fred, you're a maxi, you can't support other 1055 01:02:53,760 --> 01:02:54,920 tokens. No, you can. 1056 01:02:55,400 --> 01:02:58,960 It's just I I just don't think they're going to compete for 1057 01:02:58,960 --> 01:02:59,920 money. Right. 1058 01:03:01,080 --> 01:03:03,760 That's a different thing. They're different thing and it's 1059 01:03:03,760 --> 01:03:08,480 this much smaller thing, right. Like to me, like creating a new 1060 01:03:08,480 --> 01:03:10,680 form of money for the entire planet. 1061 01:03:11,040 --> 01:03:17,160 Well, that's, you know, that's $100 trillion prize right now. 1062 01:03:17,160 --> 01:03:23,000 Creating a token for NFTSI don't know, maybe that's a couple 100 1063 01:03:23,000 --> 01:03:24,680 million. Maybe, you know, like if you're, 1064 01:03:24,920 --> 01:03:27,240 if you're lucky, like Open C you know what I mean? 1065 01:03:28,600 --> 01:03:31,400 It's not to say it's bad you can certainly do it. 1066 01:03:33,280 --> 01:03:36,920 But I I I think it's not I think the you know you have to look at 1067 01:03:36,920 --> 01:03:41,280 what's where is the eye on the price you know so I think you 1068 01:03:41,280 --> 01:03:49,320 know and and I think the the the big the big prize is Bitcoin 1069 01:03:49,440 --> 01:03:51,240 right. That's the prize is money. 1070 01:03:51,560 --> 01:03:57,560 Now if you have a 5% of your money is spread around a bunch 1071 01:03:57,560 --> 01:03:59,840 of stuff, you buy some NFTS for art. 1072 01:04:00,120 --> 01:04:02,000 Do whatever you want. Fine, great. 1073 01:04:02,000 --> 01:04:03,160 Do that. You know what I mean? 1074 01:04:03,600 --> 01:04:07,480 Like I'm not. I'm not a a maximalist in the 1075 01:04:07,520 --> 01:04:10,440 kind of Spanish Inquisition sense of the word. 1076 01:04:10,480 --> 01:04:14,320 You know, I I don't, I don't want to like, sorry man, you 1077 01:04:14,320 --> 01:04:20,720 bought an NFT bad. Like, no, buy a buy a little, 1078 01:04:20,720 --> 01:04:23,080 eat. So what, You know, use Meta Mac. 1079 01:04:23,080 --> 01:04:24,440 It's not the end of the world, right? 1080 01:04:25,360 --> 01:04:32,120 But I I don't think it's, it's a great use of your money to 1081 01:04:32,120 --> 01:04:35,440 invest, especially if somebody doesn't own any Bitcoin, if 1082 01:04:35,440 --> 01:04:37,840 they're buying some meme coin or something else. 1083 01:04:39,040 --> 01:04:42,120 It's kind of a mistake right now, you know? 1084 01:04:42,120 --> 01:04:45,560 If if you own a lot of Bitcoin and you're also like playing 1085 01:04:45,560 --> 01:04:46,960 around, you want to do something else. 1086 01:04:48,120 --> 01:04:50,680 You want to buy Dogecoin? Fine, buy Dogecoin. 1087 01:04:50,680 --> 01:04:52,920 You know what I mean? Like, have fun. 1088 01:04:52,920 --> 01:04:55,040 You know, like it. It should. 1089 01:04:55,040 --> 01:04:57,680 You might view it in. You should view it in different 1090 01:04:57,680 --> 01:04:59,080 ways I think. Like you have to view in 1091 01:04:59,080 --> 01:05:02,040 different ways. And also it's like and the other 1092 01:05:02,040 --> 01:05:04,920 part of being a D Gen. is trying to time Bitcoin. 1093 01:05:05,000 --> 01:05:07,240 Like really bad idea. I don't know. 1094 01:05:07,880 --> 01:05:11,240 Yeah, I agree. You know, like trying trying to 1095 01:05:11,760 --> 01:05:16,960 buy and sell Bitcoin constantly is just not a good idea. 1096 01:05:17,880 --> 01:05:20,720 Why do you think people are so degenerate with their money or 1097 01:05:20,720 --> 01:05:24,600 like on this gambling? Five in a sense, like why? 1098 01:05:26,360 --> 01:05:30,160 Why is? That I think, I think people 1099 01:05:30,160 --> 01:05:34,280 seem to think that they can outsmart the market. 1100 01:05:34,440 --> 01:05:38,480 You know, and and I think it's, I think it's a combination of 1101 01:05:38,480 --> 01:05:42,080 greed and fear. You know, I think people, people 1102 01:05:42,080 --> 01:05:47,840 think, oh, I'm going to be able to sell Bitcoin and then buy it 1103 01:05:47,840 --> 01:05:51,760 back cheaper. Well, generally speaking. 1104 01:05:52,120 --> 01:05:54,280 I did that twice. Yeah. 1105 01:05:54,960 --> 01:05:56,560 Two times. Bad idea, yeah. 1106 01:05:57,800 --> 01:05:59,320 Yeah, Well, there you go. Did you? 1107 01:05:59,600 --> 01:06:00,560 Yeah. Yeah. 1108 01:06:00,560 --> 01:06:05,200 So I mean, I think generally speaking, if you sell it, you're 1109 01:06:05,200 --> 01:06:07,400 probably not going to be able to buy it back cheaper. 1110 01:06:07,480 --> 01:06:11,640 You know, like you know, you you probably think you will, but 1111 01:06:12,120 --> 01:06:15,160 then it it'll go down, maybe it'll go down, but then you're 1112 01:06:15,160 --> 01:06:18,040 going to be convinced yourself that you shouldn't buy it until 1113 01:06:18,040 --> 01:06:20,160 it goes back up above where you bought it. 1114 01:06:20,840 --> 01:06:24,320 And then you're going to be like, oh damn, yeah, you know, 1115 01:06:24,320 --> 01:06:27,480 so I I just don't. I think psychologically it's 1116 01:06:27,480 --> 01:06:32,680 it's it's it's a really bad idea to kind of actively trade this 1117 01:06:32,680 --> 01:06:35,080 stuff. I don't think it's a terrible 1118 01:06:35,080 --> 01:06:38,680 idea to spend your Bitcoin. You know, like you know 1119 01:06:39,000 --> 01:06:43,200 ultimately you ultimately you're going to be spending it somehow, 1120 01:06:43,200 --> 01:06:45,240 right? You're going to be using it to 1121 01:06:45,720 --> 01:06:49,600 to do something with it, right. But that's different than trying 1122 01:06:49,600 --> 01:06:51,720 to sell it and buy it back, right. 1123 01:06:52,360 --> 01:06:55,800 So if if I'm like, OK, great. Now it's time for me to buy a 1124 01:06:55,800 --> 01:06:59,400 house because I just got married and and I needed to sell a 1125 01:06:59,400 --> 01:07:01,280 little bit of my Bitcoin to buy the house. 1126 01:07:01,560 --> 01:07:03,840 OK, Well, sell a little bit of Bitcoin. 1127 01:07:03,840 --> 01:07:05,880 I mean you got to live. You got to, you know what I 1128 01:07:05,880 --> 01:07:11,240 mean? I I I think that makes sense And 1129 01:07:11,800 --> 01:07:15,960 you know, I think make, you know, try to postpone it as much 1130 01:07:15,960 --> 01:07:18,200 as you can, but you know also you're going to live. 1131 01:07:18,200 --> 01:07:20,440 You know you're not living forever anyways. 1132 01:07:20,440 --> 01:07:22,600 You know so. That's true, but what would be 1133 01:07:22,600 --> 01:07:25,800 your biggest, what would be your biggest tip for someone? 1134 01:07:25,800 --> 01:07:28,600 Like how can someone develop a this long term view and 1135 01:07:28,600 --> 01:07:32,200 basically also like trust themselves with their 1136 01:07:32,200 --> 01:07:34,680 understanding of what We're talking about Bitcoin, right? 1137 01:07:34,680 --> 01:07:38,440 But at one point you, I think the goal. 1138 01:07:38,520 --> 01:07:40,320 Is to get to it. Don't use leverage. 1139 01:07:40,720 --> 01:07:42,400 Do not use leverage. Right. 1140 01:07:43,120 --> 01:07:47,040 Yeah because if you're if you have too much of something, if 1141 01:07:47,040 --> 01:07:50,600 you're using leverage I think you're going to you're 1142 01:07:52,760 --> 01:07:56,400 psychologically you can you can get wrecked too easily. 1143 01:07:56,760 --> 01:07:59,240 The second thing is I wouldn't put all your money in Bitcoin. 1144 01:07:59,240 --> 01:08:04,480 And the reason I say that is I still think your best 1145 01:08:04,760 --> 01:08:09,520 percentage, it the best for kind of percentage of your asset, 1146 01:08:09,680 --> 01:08:14,480 like even fully invested, to me, I think that's like 70% Bitcoin, 1147 01:08:14,480 --> 01:08:16,120 you know what I mean? Like, even if I'm a young 1148 01:08:16,120 --> 01:08:18,080 person, I would keep 30% in cash. 1149 01:08:18,080 --> 01:08:21,200 I'd actually put it in like something super safe, like a 1150 01:08:21,279 --> 01:08:25,200 bank account, you know? And the reason is, is that 1151 01:08:25,319 --> 01:08:28,960 there's always unexpected things in life. 1152 01:08:28,960 --> 01:08:32,680 You know, like whether it's, you know, you, you get sick, you get 1153 01:08:32,680 --> 01:08:36,279 hit by a car or something. You know something happens, You 1154 01:08:36,279 --> 01:08:40,200 know you have a kid and the kid needs some operation or 1155 01:08:40,200 --> 01:08:44,120 something, right. And or you lose your job, right. 1156 01:08:44,120 --> 01:08:47,040 And you have three months where you're not working right. 1157 01:08:47,960 --> 01:08:54,240 I think I think a lot of, especially a lot of young people 1158 01:08:54,240 --> 01:08:58,720 underestimate those risks and those risks are real. 1159 01:08:58,720 --> 01:09:05,800 So having cash that you can sell, that you can use beyond 1160 01:09:05,800 --> 01:09:10,000 just Bitcoin is is good because you never know if if something 1161 01:09:10,000 --> 01:09:15,880 happens like that and you get caught in like 2022, you're 1162 01:09:15,880 --> 01:09:17,880 going to sell all your Bitcoin, right. 1163 01:09:17,880 --> 01:09:20,319 To pay for it. Yeah, I agree. 1164 01:09:20,600 --> 01:09:22,880 I don't think it's a great I I mean, I think you have to 1165 01:09:22,880 --> 01:09:27,680 realize that things can, you know, things can happen and it's 1166 01:09:27,680 --> 01:09:30,080 good. And so, you know, one of the 1167 01:09:30,080 --> 01:09:32,760 things that I've done in my life is I've always had a very 1168 01:09:32,760 --> 01:09:37,200 barbell strategy, you know, where I have some stuff that's 1169 01:09:37,279 --> 01:09:39,960 very risky, like a start up, right. 1170 01:09:41,479 --> 01:09:44,640 And you know that that's risky and takes cash. 1171 01:09:44,760 --> 01:09:47,080 And then I have a lot of cash on the side too. 1172 01:09:47,640 --> 01:09:52,319 You know, just because you know, I don't, I don't need to have, 1173 01:09:53,240 --> 01:09:55,920 like if you're 70% in Bitcoin, you can have all the rest in 1174 01:09:55,920 --> 01:09:58,520 cash, no problem. You don't need to invest the 1175 01:09:58,520 --> 01:10:00,160 rest. Put the rest in the bank 1176 01:10:00,160 --> 01:10:03,800 account, You know what I mean. Well, I'm at 9010, so. 1177 01:10:04,040 --> 01:10:10,280 OK, well 9010 it it look, if you can handle 9010 good. 1178 01:10:10,280 --> 01:10:13,640 It's depends like if you have a job and you have everything else 1179 01:10:13,640 --> 01:10:15,520 you, you know 9010's probably OK. 1180 01:10:15,920 --> 01:10:19,560 If you don't you know if you're just like counting on this 1181 01:10:19,560 --> 01:10:22,000 Bitcoin. And I just think a lot of people 1182 01:10:22,000 --> 01:10:24,200 are cutting it a little too close to the edge. 1183 01:10:24,280 --> 01:10:27,320 You know you have to it's a personal decision. 1184 01:10:27,320 --> 01:10:31,440 But that's that's I think a tip that I would say is don't you 1185 01:10:31,440 --> 01:10:34,160 know don't try to optimize too much. 1186 01:10:34,480 --> 01:10:46,440 And and I would say I think these power laws and stuff are 1187 01:10:46,480 --> 01:10:51,720 are are good for giving people a little bit more perspective on 1188 01:10:52,440 --> 01:11:01,360 like numbers not for trading so much but just like you know like 1189 01:11:01,920 --> 01:11:05,520 to give you a little bit of belief to reinforce your belief 1190 01:11:05,520 --> 01:11:08,360 that wait a second if I wait five years is this thing really 1191 01:11:08,360 --> 01:11:11,600 going to be much higher? Probably will, right. 1192 01:11:11,600 --> 01:11:15,080 Probably it's going to be triple where it is today, five or more 1193 01:11:15,320 --> 01:11:21,280 and maybe quadruple, right. But like, you know, I think, I 1194 01:11:21,280 --> 01:11:24,560 think a lot of that is just giving you the conviction that 1195 01:11:24,560 --> 01:11:29,560 you need to hold something you know, because no matter what 1196 01:11:29,560 --> 01:11:31,720 Bitcoin can go down 10% in a day. 1197 01:11:31,720 --> 01:11:33,120 And we saw it the other day, right. 1198 01:11:33,320 --> 01:11:35,600 Yeah. So you know things things can 1199 01:11:35,600 --> 01:11:46,080 move a lot and and and and and not getting freaked out about it 1200 01:11:46,360 --> 01:11:52,200 is, is I think now having said that, I, you know, another tool 1201 01:11:52,200 --> 01:11:54,640 is just, you know, dollar, dollar, cost, average. 1202 01:11:54,640 --> 01:11:57,600 You know, like if you are, if you do have cash coming in 1203 01:11:57,600 --> 01:12:01,680 regularly, well Greg, just plot that cash into Bitcoin, you 1204 01:12:01,680 --> 01:12:04,720 know, yeah, that's another good tool because then you don't have 1205 01:12:04,720 --> 01:12:05,840 to think about it too much. Right. 1206 01:12:05,840 --> 01:12:08,280 So it's like, oh, I just made $1000. 1207 01:12:08,280 --> 01:12:09,760 Great. I'll just put put it in Bitcoin, 1208 01:12:09,760 --> 01:12:12,160 right? Yeah, just view it as a savings 1209 01:12:12,160 --> 01:12:13,520 vehicle, right? Yeah, I think. 1210 01:12:13,760 --> 01:12:15,480 Like a savings vehicle, right? Yeah. 1211 01:12:16,200 --> 01:12:18,760 And I think that makes total sense for, especially for a 1212 01:12:18,760 --> 01:12:22,160 young person right now. Like I think that's that's a lot 1213 01:12:22,160 --> 01:12:25,880 of, that's a good thing. And I would say the other thing 1214 01:12:25,880 --> 01:12:29,400 is just, you know, and this is something I think you become 1215 01:12:29,400 --> 01:12:33,840 more as a Bitcoin or you start realizing that having Bitcoin is 1216 01:12:33,840 --> 01:12:40,000 such a good thing to have that you, you know, you, you, you cut 1217 01:12:40,000 --> 01:12:43,200 down on sort of stupid expenses. Yes. 1218 01:12:43,520 --> 01:12:46,040 Right. Maybe I don't need a new car, 1219 01:12:46,360 --> 01:12:50,080 you know. Maybe I can live in my current 1220 01:12:50,200 --> 01:12:54,040 wherever I'm living without upgrading that, you know. 1221 01:12:55,400 --> 01:12:57,560 Yeah. I mean, I think buying a house, 1222 01:12:57,680 --> 01:13:01,920 for example, is probably a, you know, like, look, I own my 1223 01:13:01,920 --> 01:13:07,960 house, but I wouldn't if I was doing it right now today, and I 1224 01:13:07,960 --> 01:13:10,960 was, especially if I was younger, I would definitely rent 1225 01:13:10,960 --> 01:13:14,520 for five years as opposed to buying a house right now. 1226 01:13:15,240 --> 01:13:19,200 Yeah, I think it's interesting. That, this, this is what a lot 1227 01:13:19,200 --> 01:13:22,440 of people experience this more. They're kind of like this, this, 1228 01:13:22,440 --> 01:13:25,920 this frugality in some sense. They become more frugal, or at 1229 01:13:25,920 --> 01:13:29,480 least more aware of what things cost or what is the value of 1230 01:13:29,480 --> 01:13:33,040 something that I buy, like, does it add value to my life? 1231 01:13:33,040 --> 01:13:34,560 You know, stuff, stuff like that. 1232 01:13:34,560 --> 01:13:35,440 You become more. Yeah. 1233 01:13:35,440 --> 01:13:38,160 And there's one other thing I would say is start thinking in 1234 01:13:38,160 --> 01:13:41,360 Bitcoin. Yeah, you know what I mean. 1235 01:13:41,800 --> 01:13:44,320 Yeah, I. Don't think in terms of I have, 1236 01:13:44,320 --> 01:13:47,760 you know, so much dollars, but just think I've got so much. 1237 01:13:47,760 --> 01:13:51,760 I've got three Bitcoin, OK, I got, I got 3.1 Bitcoin. 1238 01:13:51,760 --> 01:13:54,960 You know, I just, yeah, I want to get to 4, you know, like how 1239 01:13:54,960 --> 01:13:57,600 do I get to 4? Like, you know, that's. 1240 01:13:57,600 --> 01:14:00,880 Also if you think about that big purchase right, if you put that 1241 01:14:00,880 --> 01:14:04,720 in price that into Bitcoin. I would definitely think in 1242 01:14:04,720 --> 01:14:07,240 Bitcoin. I think that that that is a 1243 01:14:07,240 --> 01:14:14,520 significant hack to helping people, you know, and I think 1244 01:14:14,520 --> 01:14:17,320 that's one of the big advantages of Bitcoin relative to other 1245 01:14:17,320 --> 01:14:20,520 things is nobody really thinks in Ethereum, but they don't 1246 01:14:20,560 --> 01:14:23,320 think they're like, oh, I got so much dollars of Ethereum, 1247 01:14:23,320 --> 01:14:28,520 nobody, nobody thinks of like I got 20 ether, you know, or I 1248 01:14:28,520 --> 01:14:34,600 got, I got, I got 10,000, you know, 4000 Solana, this is like 1249 01:14:34,600 --> 01:14:36,680 got so much dollars worth of Solana, right. 1250 01:14:36,680 --> 01:14:43,000 But like Bitcoin is different because you know, Bitcoin is it 1251 01:14:43,000 --> 01:14:47,120 really is this unit you know the units of Bitcoin. 1252 01:14:47,120 --> 01:14:51,600 And and the other thing I would say is definitely and I know 1253 01:14:51,600 --> 01:14:54,840 people, some people may not agree with this, but I would 1254 01:14:54,840 --> 01:15:03,080 definitely get get used to bought sent not buying and 1255 01:15:03,080 --> 01:15:07,600 selling, but get used to using Bitcoin wallets and transacting 1256 01:15:07,600 --> 01:15:10,440 with Bitcoin even if it's small amounts. 1257 01:15:11,600 --> 01:15:14,280 I think that's another thing I would I would recommend 1258 01:15:14,280 --> 01:15:18,840 everybody do you know what I mean And you know use lightning, 1259 01:15:18,840 --> 01:15:23,720 use Bitcoin wallets. Just be don't just put it in one 1260 01:15:23,720 --> 01:15:28,080 thing and just forget about it. You know I think, you know I 1261 01:15:28,080 --> 01:15:30,640 think getting involved a little bit and you don't have to go 1262 01:15:30,640 --> 01:15:32,000 crazy. You know, you don't have to. 1263 01:15:32,680 --> 01:15:37,280 You know, you don't have to go, you know, looking for the rest 1264 01:15:37,280 --> 01:15:39,600 of one restaurant in your town that accepts Bitcoin. 1265 01:15:39,600 --> 01:15:43,400 But it's it's not necessarily a bad idea to do that a little 1266 01:15:43,400 --> 01:15:44,440 bit. You know what I mean? 1267 01:15:45,000 --> 01:15:47,360 Well, it's fun to see the technology in action. 1268 01:15:47,360 --> 01:15:49,440 I try. To use it, look it's just sort 1269 01:15:49,440 --> 01:15:53,440 of like you need to remember it's it's one of these things is 1270 01:15:53,480 --> 01:15:57,200 if you don't exercise you lose muscle right? 1271 01:15:58,400 --> 01:16:01,240 And I think it's useful. Like it's useful to actually do 1272 01:16:01,240 --> 01:16:04,960 trades and send people Bitcoin and send a friend Bitcoin. 1273 01:16:05,320 --> 01:16:07,280 I owe you some money here. I'll give you some Bitcoin. 1274 01:16:07,280 --> 01:16:11,440 You know what I mean? Like I feel like people should 1275 01:16:11,440 --> 01:16:14,920 remember this is a peer-to-peer transaction test, you know what 1276 01:16:14,920 --> 01:16:18,200 I mean? So I you know I recommend people 1277 01:16:18,200 --> 01:16:21,160 in the US you know we have this cash app thing here and I say 1278 01:16:21,600 --> 01:16:26,000 everybody should use cash app and you know get get in the mode 1279 01:16:26,000 --> 01:16:29,440 of stuff and you know you want to buy and look I I'm in favor 1280 01:16:29,440 --> 01:16:31,400 of these ordinals and stuff. You know you want to buy an 1281 01:16:31,400 --> 01:16:35,720 ordinal or something go do it. You know and and you don't don't 1282 01:16:35,720 --> 01:16:39,360 spend a lot of money but just you know get get a little bit 1283 01:16:39,360 --> 01:16:42,520 used to things moving things in Bitcoin. 1284 01:16:42,520 --> 01:16:46,200 You know get familiarize yourself with block you know 1285 01:16:46,200 --> 01:16:50,280 mempool you know understand how Bitcoin works. 1286 01:16:51,560 --> 01:16:56,680 And I think that I think that once you get in I think you 1287 01:16:56,680 --> 01:17:00,760 really it's it you don't want to go any other place. 1288 01:17:00,760 --> 01:17:03,720 You know like you're you're like I like the Bitcoin world. 1289 01:17:03,720 --> 01:17:05,840 I like blocks. I like having a block You know 1290 01:17:05,840 --> 01:17:08,360 what I mean? I like I like checking block 1291 01:17:08,360 --> 01:17:14,000 times I like you know I like all these things and all these 1292 01:17:14,000 --> 01:17:15,760 things are part of Bitcoin to me. 1293 01:17:16,640 --> 01:17:22,160 And I think, you know, being part of that world and really 1294 01:17:22,160 --> 01:17:24,840 being into that world and really understanding the difference 1295 01:17:24,840 --> 01:17:28,800 between SegWit and taproot and these type of addresses and you 1296 01:17:28,800 --> 01:17:33,160 know, all this stuff will help you become a better Bitcoin, you 1297 01:17:33,160 --> 01:17:34,600 know? Yeah, I agree. 1298 01:17:34,960 --> 01:17:39,120 So I think that that's, you know, like I would use every 1299 01:17:39,120 --> 01:17:42,200 single Lightning wallet that exists every. 1300 01:17:42,400 --> 01:17:46,240 I would test out ten different wallets and you know you know 1301 01:17:46,800 --> 01:17:48,800 try moving some money between them. 1302 01:17:48,800 --> 01:17:53,960 You know, yeah try different, different custody solution. 1303 01:17:53,960 --> 01:17:57,040 Don't just do one and then just leave it and let it sit for two 1304 01:17:57,040 --> 01:18:01,560 years and then then realize you didn't actually store your words 1305 01:18:01,560 --> 01:18:05,680 properly or something, you know. So I think this usage is very 1306 01:18:05,680 --> 01:18:11,640 important and you know and join a bit Bitcoin meet up groups and 1307 01:18:11,680 --> 01:18:17,360 you know that that those things I think are important you know. 1308 01:18:17,800 --> 01:18:21,040 And I actually got my hairdresser onto Bitcoin, so now 1309 01:18:21,040 --> 01:18:23,320 every time I go I pay him in Bitcoin. 1310 01:18:23,320 --> 01:18:23,920 So. That's good. 1311 01:18:23,960 --> 01:18:26,080 See, that's the thing. It's, it's and it's not. 1312 01:18:26,480 --> 01:18:31,560 Look, even paying somebody on chain Bitcoin is not terrible. 1313 01:18:31,840 --> 01:18:34,000 You know, it's not, you know, the fees are actually kind of 1314 01:18:34,000 --> 01:18:35,680 reasonable right now. You know what I mean? 1315 01:18:35,800 --> 01:18:36,640 So. Yeah, I agree. 1316 01:18:37,120 --> 01:18:45,480 And so I I I'm, you know, I I think that I mean I love the 1317 01:18:45,640 --> 01:18:47,600 Bitcoin. I love the whole ecosystem of 1318 01:18:47,600 --> 01:18:49,360 Bitcoin. So I'm like there's nothing 1319 01:18:49,360 --> 01:18:52,280 about any of the part of it that I don't like you know. 1320 01:18:53,000 --> 01:18:58,040 And so, but I, I, I know there's a lot of people who, well, for 1321 01:18:58,040 --> 01:19:03,280 example, we were doing this with a space and you know this this 1322 01:19:03,280 --> 01:19:09,240 guy Gary Cardone, he we had this bet and he lost this bet and 1323 01:19:09,240 --> 01:19:13,000 this Bitcoin Beagle guy won. And then Gary's like, OK, he 1324 01:19:13,000 --> 01:19:15,160 goes, OK, you're paying 100,000 Sats. 1325 01:19:15,160 --> 01:19:18,200 And he's like, I don't know how to send 100,000 Sats. 1326 01:19:18,200 --> 01:19:22,040 I'm like, wait a second. Like, you got you have Bitcoin, 1327 01:19:22,040 --> 01:19:22,960 right? And he goes, yeah, well, 1328 01:19:22,960 --> 01:19:27,720 Coinbase, you know, I don't like, OK, you got to learn how 1329 01:19:27,720 --> 01:19:32,400 to send Bitcoin. Like you, you don't know how to 1330 01:19:32,400 --> 01:19:34,040 send Bitcoin. You're not a Bitcoiner. 1331 01:19:34,040 --> 01:19:36,800 I mean, you're what are you doing on a Bitcoin space? 1332 01:19:37,560 --> 01:19:41,320 You know, talking about Bitcoin for hours on the end when you 1333 01:19:41,320 --> 01:19:46,600 actually can't, If you can't send somebody 100,000 sats like 1334 01:19:46,600 --> 01:19:50,640 that, you you need to, you need to do your homework a little 1335 01:19:50,640 --> 01:19:51,880 bit, you know what I mean? So. 1336 01:19:52,840 --> 01:19:55,960 Well, I think it's it's the summary is like study Bitcoin in 1337 01:19:55,960 --> 01:19:59,480 breadth and and depth, right. And you, you try everything out 1338 01:19:59,480 --> 01:20:02,760 And I think that's also well, for me, it's what's fun. 1339 01:20:02,760 --> 01:20:04,320 It's like I'm learning every day. 1340 01:20:04,320 --> 01:20:07,280 Still, this is such a, it's such a huge thing. 1341 01:20:07,280 --> 01:20:09,480 And so every every day there's a new. 1342 01:20:10,240 --> 01:20:13,600 New topic to learn or or a thing to try out, So that's always 1343 01:20:14,240 --> 01:20:17,040 just very rewarding. A lot of cool tools out there 1344 01:20:17,040 --> 01:20:19,560 and there's a lot of you know there's a lot of there's a lot 1345 01:20:19,560 --> 01:20:23,320 of good projects and cool tools and and you know it's it's 1346 01:20:23,320 --> 01:20:26,840 interesting too and and I think that you know part of it is if 1347 01:20:26,840 --> 01:20:30,280 you stay interested in these things you become a better 1348 01:20:30,800 --> 01:20:35,280 holder of the stuff because it's like OK this this is kind of 1349 01:20:35,280 --> 01:20:38,960 what I'm this is all relates to my passion which is this 1350 01:20:38,960 --> 01:20:40,240 Bitcoin, right. Yeah. 1351 01:20:40,440 --> 01:20:42,760 So that's what I think. All right. 1352 01:20:42,760 --> 01:20:45,560 All right. Fred, to wrap up the last 1353 01:20:45,560 --> 01:20:49,320 question and I ask everyone the same question, what is a core 1354 01:20:49,320 --> 01:20:54,600 belief you will never let go? A core belief that I will never 1355 01:20:54,600 --> 01:21:02,720 let go. A core belief about Bitcoin? 1356 01:21:03,800 --> 01:21:12,640 Anything. OK, I think my core belief is 1357 01:21:12,680 --> 01:21:16,080 that you really need to do it yourself and you need to. 1358 01:21:16,120 --> 01:21:20,600 You need to be hands on and you have to make up your own mind 1359 01:21:21,680 --> 01:21:27,480 and not accept other people's opinion, but just make up your 1360 01:21:27,480 --> 01:21:31,440 own mind about these things like you. 1361 01:21:32,400 --> 01:21:36,320 It's not good enough to to be like, well, Sailor said it, you 1362 01:21:36,320 --> 01:21:41,600 know, or so and so said it, or Fred said it, or Fred said power 1363 01:21:41,600 --> 01:21:44,080 law. Like no, you should, you should 1364 01:21:44,200 --> 01:21:47,720 100% convince yourself of whatever you're thinking. 1365 01:21:48,480 --> 01:21:50,920 But you have to go through all the work yourself and you have 1366 01:21:50,920 --> 01:21:54,360 to convince yourself and you should make up your own mind 1367 01:21:54,360 --> 01:21:56,520 because that's the only way you're going to have really 1368 01:21:56,520 --> 01:22:00,280 strong convictions, I think. I love that, Yeah. 1369 01:22:00,280 --> 01:22:02,720 Now that's that's kind of what? Couldn't agree more. 1370 01:22:02,800 --> 01:22:05,680 I'd say, yeah. Well, this is also what Bitcoin 1371 01:22:05,680 --> 01:22:08,000 invites you to do, right? I think that's the whole point. 1372 01:22:08,000 --> 01:22:11,880 Like, you don't have to believe what people like us say about 1373 01:22:11,880 --> 01:22:15,280 Bitcoin. The entire idea is that we 1374 01:22:15,280 --> 01:22:18,960 invite you so you can study it because it's so transparent that 1375 01:22:19,520 --> 01:22:22,080 you don't have to believe us. That's the entire point, right? 1376 01:22:22,080 --> 01:22:23,840 But you have to do that work as you said. 1377 01:22:23,840 --> 01:22:27,560 Well that's that's why I love it so much because it's it's it's 1378 01:22:27,560 --> 01:22:30,280 just it. Well, from my perspective it's 1379 01:22:30,280 --> 01:22:35,240 so mathematical. It's just so transparent and and 1380 01:22:35,240 --> 01:22:39,480 you know I love that every little thing is like like even 1381 01:22:39,520 --> 01:22:42,240 even in Ethereum they're not even sure how many ether there 1382 01:22:42,240 --> 01:22:44,160 are. Nobody's even sure, like, 1383 01:22:44,760 --> 01:22:46,600 something's wrong with that system. 1384 01:22:46,600 --> 01:22:49,360 Right when they can't even tell you how many there is, you know, 1385 01:22:49,400 --> 01:22:50,880 and. They're changing it again. 1386 01:22:50,880 --> 01:22:51,920 Well and. They're changing. 1387 01:22:52,240 --> 01:22:55,560 Like, I don't know, Like, to me there's something fundamentally 1388 01:22:55,560 --> 01:22:58,920 wrong. But Bitcoin is so it's black and 1389 01:22:58,920 --> 01:23:03,080 white and you know, there's there's no sort of real 1390 01:23:03,080 --> 01:23:05,280 mysteries there. It's all, you know, it's it's 1391 01:23:05,520 --> 01:23:10,960 it's, you know there's there's mysteries as to why it's working 1392 01:23:10,960 --> 01:23:13,680 the way it is. And you know, like it is kind 1393 01:23:13,680 --> 01:23:16,480 of, it's almost feels like it's an alien force. 1394 01:23:16,480 --> 01:23:19,280 You know, it's like this thing was created and it's just 1395 01:23:19,280 --> 01:23:23,960 working so well and it's taking out of the world in such a way I 1396 01:23:23,960 --> 01:23:27,080 don't know why that is exactly what why is it so? 1397 01:23:27,200 --> 01:23:31,960 You know, it just seems like it was just it was created once one 1398 01:23:31,960 --> 01:23:35,720 code changed a little bit, but not much, you know. 1399 01:23:36,160 --> 01:23:40,280 Yeah, I think it's because it it just works it. 1400 01:23:40,280 --> 01:23:43,360 Sounds so stupid. But it works and everyone can 1401 01:23:43,360 --> 01:23:45,600 check it out. And I think maybe to add to what 1402 01:23:45,600 --> 01:23:47,960 you said, like if you're studying Bitcoin, like one of 1403 01:23:47,960 --> 01:23:51,280 the things to keep an eye on this, you know, the halving 1404 01:23:51,280 --> 01:23:54,760 that's coming up, that's not just like, oh, the, you know, 1405 01:23:54,760 --> 01:23:56,520 the block rewards are split in half. 1406 01:23:56,520 --> 01:24:00,600 But this is actually like a celebration of the the fact that 1407 01:24:00,600 --> 01:24:04,880 we can trust the rules that are set out for this monetary 1408 01:24:04,880 --> 01:24:07,080 system, right. If the halving happens on the 1409 01:24:07,080 --> 01:24:10,280 day that we predict, that actually shows you that the 1410 01:24:10,280 --> 01:24:15,760 monetary policy of this system is true and enforced and adopted 1411 01:24:15,760 --> 01:24:18,640 by everyone who uses it, right? That's the entire point. 1412 01:24:19,200 --> 01:24:23,360 And yeah, I think that that's a nice illustration of I think 1413 01:24:23,360 --> 01:24:27,120 what we studied and now believe in so well. 1414 01:24:27,120 --> 01:24:30,560 Bram, it's been a great talking to you and you know, if I'm ever 1415 01:24:30,560 --> 01:24:32,640 in Netherlands, I'll look you up. 1416 01:24:33,480 --> 01:24:35,920 Hit me up. Yeah, and if you're ever in LA, 1417 01:24:36,600 --> 01:24:38,560 come, come by. Let's do it. 1418 01:24:38,560 --> 01:24:41,680 Well, thanks so much for your time in this conversation and 1419 01:24:41,760 --> 01:24:43,360 we'll stay in touch. OK. 1420 01:24:43,480 --> 01:24:44,840 Thanks, Bram. Thank you. 1421 01:24:45,480 --> 01:24:48,240 I hope you enjoyed this episode. If you did, it would be amazing 1422 01:24:48,240 --> 01:24:51,080 if you could rate, review and subscribe on the podcast 1423 01:24:51,080 --> 01:24:54,000 platform of your choice. It will help us educate more 1424 01:24:54,000 --> 01:24:56,120 millennials on the importance of Bitcoin. 1425 01:24:56,360 --> 01:24:58,160 You can follow and connect with me on Twitter. 1426 01:24:58,160 --> 01:25:02,760 I'm Bram K that's at BR AM K and if you are or know someone who 1427 01:25:02,760 --> 01:25:05,360 has an interesting perspective on Bitcoin that's worth sharing, 1428 01:25:05,360 --> 01:25:07,680 hit me up. I read and reply to every single 1429 01:25:07,680 --> 01:25:09,560 message. I appreciate your support and 1430 01:25:09,560 --> 01:25:11,240 hope you'll be here for the next episode. 1431 01:25:11,560 --> 01:25:12,800 Thanks for listening. Bye.