1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:01,760 All right. Hey there, this is Prom Constant 2 00:00:01,760 --> 00:00:03,640 and you're listening to Bitcoin for Millennials. 3 00:00:03,640 --> 00:00:06,320 Together with my guests on this podcast, I go on a journey to 4 00:00:06,320 --> 00:00:09,080 discover how our current financial system works, why it's 5 00:00:09,080 --> 00:00:11,760 flawed, and why Bitcoin is the most relevant technology that 6 00:00:11,760 --> 00:00:14,480 you should understand. Episode I'm joined by Des B. 7 00:00:14,720 --> 00:00:17,280 He's an electrical engineer by trade who spends his time 8 00:00:17,280 --> 00:00:19,800 thinking at the intersection of Bitcoin and this extra diesel 9 00:00:19,800 --> 00:00:22,640 energy and energy grids. He's also the Co founder of 10 00:00:22,640 --> 00:00:25,880 Lookingglass Education, one of the best educational hubs for 11 00:00:25,880 --> 00:00:28,960 all things Bitcoin and finance. And he's the co-author of the 12 00:00:28,960 --> 00:00:31,520 book. B is for Bitcoin the essential 13 00:00:31,520 --> 00:00:35,920 guide to all things Bitcoin. Welcome Daz, Awesome to meet 14 00:00:35,920 --> 00:00:39,560 online after we met briefly in in Madeira. 15 00:00:39,560 --> 00:00:43,480 So fun to to talk to you again. Absolute pleasure to be here, 16 00:00:43,480 --> 00:00:46,000 appreciate the the invitation to come and have a chat this 17 00:00:46,000 --> 00:00:48,680 morning. Well, it's your morning. 18 00:00:48,680 --> 00:00:51,680 We just talked about it. It's 55 AM in Australia. 19 00:00:51,680 --> 00:00:54,720 It's 9:00 PM in Europe, but we're making it work. 20 00:00:54,720 --> 00:00:57,080 So I'm. I'm happy you're here. 21 00:00:58,640 --> 00:01:00,320 Yeah, I wanted to start actually. 22 00:01:00,320 --> 00:01:05,680 You're an electrician and later on an electric engineer, right? 23 00:01:05,800 --> 00:01:07,840 By trade. How? 24 00:01:08,600 --> 00:01:11,600 How does a hard working blue collar worker end up studying 25 00:01:11,600 --> 00:01:13,840 and adopting Bitcoin? Like how? 26 00:01:14,160 --> 00:01:17,200 How did that go? That's a great, great question 27 00:01:17,200 --> 00:01:19,320 actually. So in Australia we're pretty 28 00:01:19,320 --> 00:01:22,760 lucky in terms of tradespeople generally earn a pretty good 29 00:01:22,760 --> 00:01:26,120 wage. So that meant eventually after 30 00:01:26,520 --> 00:01:30,200 many years of you, you you kind of as a tradesperson you do an 31 00:01:30,200 --> 00:01:33,240 apprenticeship and you get paid next to nothing And then and 32 00:01:33,240 --> 00:01:36,040 then after you, you become a tradesperson your your wage 33 00:01:36,040 --> 00:01:39,040 starts to increase. So you go from absolute bread 34 00:01:39,040 --> 00:01:43,960 lines into you know a a a humble level of abundance. 35 00:01:43,960 --> 00:01:47,920 So now put me in a position to be able to have some disposable 36 00:01:47,920 --> 00:01:51,960 income and came to a a bit of a fork in the road with my formal 37 00:01:51,960 --> 00:01:54,280 studies and everything around how I was going to direct my 38 00:01:54,280 --> 00:01:57,040 time. And so at that stage of the game 39 00:01:57,400 --> 00:02:02,560 I've done some formal education in electrical engineering and 40 00:02:03,120 --> 00:02:06,800 was then at A at A at a point at a juncture where I was like I I 41 00:02:06,800 --> 00:02:09,880 was, I was putting 20 hours a week into studying electrical 42 00:02:09,880 --> 00:02:14,760 engineering and I had a pathway to keep studying and or make a 43 00:02:14,760 --> 00:02:16,640 choice. I was earning quite a good wage 44 00:02:16,640 --> 00:02:19,440 and I thought, well, I've never, I've always been interested in 45 00:02:19,440 --> 00:02:22,560 investing, but I know absolutely nothing about investing. 46 00:02:22,920 --> 00:02:25,520 So I didn't know what a dividend was, I didn't know what a bond 47 00:02:25,520 --> 00:02:26,920 was. I didn't know what any of these 48 00:02:26,920 --> 00:02:29,840 things were. So I I thought, I will funnel 49 00:02:29,840 --> 00:02:32,320 all of that energy into studying, investing. 50 00:02:32,800 --> 00:02:35,680 And so I very much stumbled across Bitcoin from an investing 51 00:02:35,680 --> 00:02:38,800 lens. After having done over 18 months 52 00:02:38,800 --> 00:02:42,800 worth of study into investing, I read as many books as I could, 53 00:02:42,800 --> 00:02:46,640 watched all the YouTube videos and quickly found out that there 54 00:02:46,640 --> 00:02:48,560 was actually nothing of Fair value to buy. 55 00:02:48,560 --> 00:02:51,760 Everything was was trading at multiples of what would be 56 00:02:51,760 --> 00:02:53,640 deemed fair value by any sort of metric. 57 00:02:54,280 --> 00:02:57,120 And then that was sort of the impetus for me to start looking 58 00:02:57,120 --> 00:03:00,600 under the hood a little bit more and then end up stumbling across 59 00:03:00,760 --> 00:03:04,080 discovering how money worked and and and realizing the the 60 00:03:04,600 --> 00:03:08,160 absolute Ponzi scheme of Fiat currency system that we operate 61 00:03:08,160 --> 00:03:10,160 within. And that was really the the sort 62 00:03:10,160 --> 00:03:13,720 of eye opening moment for me. Yeah, interesting. 63 00:03:13,720 --> 00:03:17,880 When you say fair value, right, like can you share a bit about 64 00:03:17,880 --> 00:03:21,040 that, like how, how do you see that now or how or what did you 65 00:03:21,040 --> 00:03:22,600 run into? Of course. 66 00:03:23,480 --> 00:03:25,640 You know, people talk about fair value. 67 00:03:25,640 --> 00:03:29,080 They talk about intrinsic value, They talk about utility value. 68 00:03:29,080 --> 00:03:31,280 Like how how did you learn about that? 69 00:03:32,280 --> 00:03:34,640 Yeah. So that was very much, you know, 70 00:03:34,640 --> 00:03:38,240 quite often particularly in Australia a lot of people play 71 00:03:38,240 --> 00:03:42,280 the stock market and none of them to my mind and any 72 00:03:42,280 --> 00:03:45,720 conversations for what humble people that I I interact with 73 00:03:45,720 --> 00:03:49,200 from friends, family and work colleagues really know how to 74 00:03:49,480 --> 00:03:51,880 value and equity. They're just rolling the dice. 75 00:03:51,880 --> 00:03:54,320 They're basically saying, you know I bought BHB Billiton 76 00:03:54,320 --> 00:03:55,520 today. Oh, why'd you buy it? 77 00:03:55,520 --> 00:03:57,480 Oh, because it went down 6% from yesterday. 78 00:03:57,480 --> 00:04:00,920 It's going to go back up and that's the sort of whole thesis 79 00:04:00,920 --> 00:04:03,280 around their investing thesis, right. 80 00:04:03,280 --> 00:04:07,680 So the I was lucky in that sense that I'd, I really wanted to 81 00:04:07,680 --> 00:04:10,640 understand what investing was and and went down a value 82 00:04:10,640 --> 00:04:15,440 investing rabbit hole in terms of being able to value a stock. 83 00:04:15,440 --> 00:04:18,560 So what that means is looking under the hood, having a look at 84 00:04:18,560 --> 00:04:21,320 how much debt they've got, what sort of income have they got, 85 00:04:21,320 --> 00:04:25,720 what's their overheads, how much profit are they making And then 86 00:04:26,040 --> 00:04:29,040 doing what they call a discount cash flow analysis and which is 87 00:04:29,040 --> 00:04:34,920 a formula that you can deploy in order to give you a an idea of 88 00:04:34,920 --> 00:04:37,080 what a fair value for that company would be. 89 00:04:37,080 --> 00:04:41,640 And it's very akin to, you know, most people if you said you're 90 00:04:41,640 --> 00:04:44,040 going to go and buy this cafe that's selling coffee on a 91 00:04:44,040 --> 00:04:47,240 day-to-day basis, it's it's intrinsically they know that 92 00:04:47,240 --> 00:04:50,080 they should go and ask that person, well, how many cups of 93 00:04:50,080 --> 00:04:52,360 coffee do you sell? How much, how many staff do you 94 00:04:52,360 --> 00:04:55,280 have, What are your overheads, what's your profit margin? 95 00:04:55,560 --> 00:04:56,960 And you would do that for a cafe. 96 00:04:57,400 --> 00:04:58,920 It stands to reason that you should do it. 97 00:04:58,920 --> 00:05:02,160 For BHP Billiton, it just turns out that the accounting's a lot 98 00:05:02,160 --> 00:05:04,320 harder. So it turns a lot of people off 99 00:05:04,320 --> 00:05:06,400 from that respect. But the metrics are still true. 100 00:05:06,400 --> 00:05:08,400 It's like what's that actual company worth? 101 00:05:08,640 --> 00:05:11,520 What's their assets? What are they, what's their 102 00:05:11,520 --> 00:05:12,920 turnover? What's their profit? 103 00:05:12,920 --> 00:05:14,640 What's how's their capital allocation? 104 00:05:14,640 --> 00:05:18,280 All of these metrics come into play to help you determine 105 00:05:18,400 --> 00:05:21,200 what's a fair price for that for that company. 106 00:05:21,200 --> 00:05:24,840 And then what I sort of discovered through that 2018 107 00:05:24,840 --> 00:05:29,120 into 2019 period was that things were trading for absolutely 108 00:05:29,120 --> 00:05:33,240 astronomical multiples of what would be normally considered 109 00:05:33,240 --> 00:05:37,360 fair value, which means you know a price to earnings ratio is a 110 00:05:37,360 --> 00:05:40,240 nice easy sort of metric that most people can sort of get 111 00:05:40,240 --> 00:05:42,840 their head around. And Warren Buffett's famously 112 00:05:43,720 --> 00:05:48,800 you know, quoted as as sort of looking at fair value of of of a 113 00:05:49,080 --> 00:05:52,560 price to earnings ratio around that 15 multiple 20 if it's a 114 00:05:52,560 --> 00:05:54,920 really good company. And what that essentially means 115 00:05:54,920 --> 00:05:58,080 is, is that is that whatever that number is, so say it's 15, 116 00:05:58,320 --> 00:06:01,200 it essentially means that it's going to take me about 15 years 117 00:06:01,200 --> 00:06:04,680 to get back my original investment based on their 118 00:06:04,680 --> 00:06:06,160 earnings that they make right now. 119 00:06:06,360 --> 00:06:09,600 So it's a good, it's a good metric in in order just to thumb 120 00:06:09,600 --> 00:06:12,280 suck and say, oh OK, it's going to take me about 15 years to get 121 00:06:12,280 --> 00:06:14,960 my money back. And what ended up happening is 122 00:06:14,960 --> 00:06:18,760 in 2018-2019 you get the likes of companies like Tesla for 123 00:06:18,760 --> 00:06:23,640 example, which were trading at 1200 PE 1200 years to get your 124 00:06:23,640 --> 00:06:26,960 money back based on earnings that they'd they'd made in the 125 00:06:26,960 --> 00:06:29,600 past. So and that wasn't a an isolated 126 00:06:30,240 --> 00:06:32,240 example. There was a lot of examples of 127 00:06:32,240 --> 00:06:36,000 that where, you know, I'm looking at the universe of index 128 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:40,360 for Australia to ASX 200, the 200 stocks within Australia the 129 00:06:40,360 --> 00:06:43,240 top 200. And when I use my discount cash 130 00:06:43,240 --> 00:06:46,360 flow analysis metrics, I had a spreadsheet that brought all the 131 00:06:46,360 --> 00:06:47,720 price data in all this sort of thing. 132 00:06:48,120 --> 00:06:51,880 There's about 3 stocks that were actually deemed fair value and 133 00:06:51,880 --> 00:06:55,080 they were dog shit companies. You wouldn't want to own them. 134 00:06:55,680 --> 00:06:59,840 So but everything else was, you know, absolutely astronomical. 135 00:06:59,840 --> 00:07:02,160 And that's really where I started saying, well, there's 136 00:07:02,160 --> 00:07:05,040 there's two things here. Either I've got something wrong. 137 00:07:05,200 --> 00:07:07,920 So I went back through all the math and made sure that you know 138 00:07:08,320 --> 00:07:12,720 my model was OK and it was or something fundamentally is wrong 139 00:07:12,720 --> 00:07:16,880 with the way that this this works for valuing stocks and and 140 00:07:16,880 --> 00:07:20,240 it turns out that there's nothing wrong with that method 141 00:07:20,240 --> 00:07:23,440 of valuing stocks. It's just that everything else 142 00:07:23,440 --> 00:07:28,960 in this world has attracted a monetary premium because we our 143 00:07:28,960 --> 00:07:30,680 money. Our money no longer works. 144 00:07:30,760 --> 00:07:32,640 Our money no longer functions as money. 145 00:07:32,640 --> 00:07:35,240 And I and I can expand on that that a little bit if you like 146 00:07:37,120 --> 00:07:40,240 when your when your savings account doesn't work like 147 00:07:40,240 --> 00:07:42,960 grandma used to say it worked. You know you could put your 148 00:07:42,960 --> 00:07:45,000 money under the mattress and come back, save your little 149 00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:49,320 pennies off and you come back and and buy something over a 150 00:07:49,320 --> 00:07:51,920 longer period of time. When when we work through this 151 00:07:51,920 --> 00:07:55,120 Fiat monetary system where in in interest rates are below the 152 00:07:55,120 --> 00:07:59,440 rate of inflation, you the longer you hold dollars the less 153 00:07:59,440 --> 00:08:03,840 it buys you over time. So as humans we may not be 154 00:08:03,840 --> 00:08:06,600 intuitively aware of this, it may not be consciously aware of 155 00:08:06,600 --> 00:08:09,280 this, but subconsciously we know that we need to protect 156 00:08:09,280 --> 00:08:12,360 purchasing power over time. So we look towards then other 157 00:08:12,360 --> 00:08:14,840 things and they attract the monetary premium. 158 00:08:15,240 --> 00:08:18,480 So real estate and equities are probably the two best examples 159 00:08:18,480 --> 00:08:22,440 because we as wage earners don't understand finance, we don't. 160 00:08:22,520 --> 00:08:24,560 You know, I'm an electrician, I shouldn't know how to do a 161 00:08:24,560 --> 00:08:27,640 discount cash flow analysis really when it when it boils 162 00:08:27,640 --> 00:08:29,440 down to it, I should just know how to be a Sparky. 163 00:08:29,760 --> 00:08:32,679 But I've had to, in order to be able to get ahead, I've had to 164 00:08:32,679 --> 00:08:37,360 turn my attention towards trying to get ahead and understand and 165 00:08:37,360 --> 00:08:40,320 give myself an edge. And that's why I think real 166 00:08:40,320 --> 00:08:43,440 estate and equities in particular attract this monetary 167 00:08:43,440 --> 00:08:45,920 premium more than anything else. And real estate in particular, 168 00:08:45,920 --> 00:08:49,200 because real estate is easier to understand than equities 169 00:08:49,200 --> 00:08:52,800 arguably, like we all know people, the thesis is you need a 170 00:08:52,800 --> 00:08:57,160 place to live. And I I know I can go and get a 171 00:08:57,160 --> 00:08:58,960 mortgage. I can probably get another 172 00:08:58,960 --> 00:09:01,560 mortgage based on the equity that I have in my existing home 173 00:09:01,560 --> 00:09:03,960 and I can go on and buy an investment property and I can 174 00:09:03,960 --> 00:09:05,320 let someone else pay it off for me. 175 00:09:05,720 --> 00:09:08,440 And and that's really like quite celebrated, particularly in 176 00:09:08,440 --> 00:09:09,760 Australia. Hey there. 177 00:09:09,760 --> 00:09:11,400 Thanks so much for listening to this episode. 178 00:09:11,440 --> 00:09:14,040 I just really want to ask you for a quick favor. 179 00:09:14,320 --> 00:09:17,880 Over the last few months, I've seen that only 75% of people who 180 00:09:17,880 --> 00:09:20,640 listen to this podcast or watch it on YouTube are actually 181 00:09:20,640 --> 00:09:22,360 subscribed. The most important thing I'm 182 00:09:22,360 --> 00:09:25,120 currently focusing on, next to hopefully giving you interesting 183 00:09:25,120 --> 00:09:28,560 conversations is growing this podcast subscriber base so I can 184 00:09:28,560 --> 00:09:30,320 continue with it into the future. 185 00:09:30,640 --> 00:09:33,080 I want to thank everyone who's been viewing and listening to 186 00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:35,920 Bitcoin for millennials, leaving comments here and sending me 187 00:09:35,920 --> 00:09:37,440 DMS. It's been super, super 188 00:09:37,440 --> 00:09:38,880 motivating. So thank you so much. 189 00:09:39,200 --> 00:09:42,000 So I really want to ask you to please hit the subscribe button 190 00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:45,280 on YouTube or follow me on your favorite podcasting app if you 191 00:09:45,280 --> 00:09:48,280 are enjoying this podcast. Thanks again for joining me on 192 00:09:48,280 --> 00:09:50,480 this journey. Now back to the conversation. 193 00:09:50,880 --> 00:09:57,160 I mean I love this angle because I talked to Peter Dunworth who 194 00:09:57,160 --> 00:10:01,240 you might know fellow Aussie. I think it was the 2nd episode 195 00:10:01,240 --> 00:10:06,360 of podcast and you know he's an investment manager or or 196 00:10:06,480 --> 00:10:09,440 financial advisor for high net worth individuals etcetera. 197 00:10:09,440 --> 00:10:12,800 Like he's been doing this for, I don't know 20-30 years something 198 00:10:12,800 --> 00:10:14,840 like that. And we were talking about this 199 00:10:14,840 --> 00:10:17,520 exact thing, right. Like you said like as an 200 00:10:17,520 --> 00:10:21,960 electrician, as an electrician I should not know about this cash 201 00:10:21,960 --> 00:10:24,200 flow. And you also said like to get 202 00:10:24,200 --> 00:10:29,880 ahead but it's not even to get ahead it's to stay level 203 00:10:29,920 --> 00:10:30,920 basically. Right. 204 00:10:30,920 --> 00:10:34,280 Because when you know you and and and we talked about this a 205 00:10:34,280 --> 00:10:37,240 lot already on the podcast, but I still I I, I just love to 206 00:10:37,240 --> 00:10:40,880 illustrate it like this right. Like everyone takes risk with a 207 00:10:40,880 --> 00:10:44,960 job or a venture. You know whether well with an 208 00:10:44,960 --> 00:10:47,600 education even right to become an electrician. 209 00:10:47,600 --> 00:10:50,240 Do I still have a job And all these things like everything is 210 00:10:50,240 --> 00:10:53,880 taking a risk, right. And then you get rewarded in 211 00:10:54,880 --> 00:10:59,960 this money that is deemed trustable by your government, 212 00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:02,160 right. It's backed by your government, 213 00:11:02,160 --> 00:11:04,920 it's not backed by anything. That's the definition of Fiat, 214 00:11:04,920 --> 00:11:07,160 right. And then you come home from 215 00:11:07,160 --> 00:11:10,920 taking risk and you come home to your family who you want to be 216 00:11:10,920 --> 00:11:14,040 with etcetera. But you are forced to take more 217 00:11:14,040 --> 00:11:18,680 risk, IE as you illustrated, you know first spend time to study, 218 00:11:19,160 --> 00:11:20,920 hopefully you study the right thing. 219 00:11:20,920 --> 00:11:24,840 As you also mentioned during studying investing, you didn't 220 00:11:24,840 --> 00:11:27,880 even learn about what money is right that came after that, 221 00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:31,680 right. So, so spending your time on 222 00:11:32,280 --> 00:11:35,440 whatever subject or trade or whatever that is already taking 223 00:11:35,440 --> 00:11:38,320 risk to get to a certain outcome, right. 224 00:11:38,720 --> 00:11:44,800 And Peter told me that he was like, yeah this should be the 225 00:11:44,800 --> 00:11:47,320 biggest illustration because you take risk with this job or 226 00:11:47,320 --> 00:11:48,880 venture, you come home, you take more risk. 227 00:11:49,120 --> 00:11:52,880 But there's people like Peter whose job it is to figure this 228 00:11:52,880 --> 00:11:56,400 out as the the the first thing they do, right. 229 00:11:56,400 --> 00:11:58,320 Not when they come home, but the first thing they do. 230 00:11:58,760 --> 00:12:02,480 And I I, I find that so illuminating, almost right, 231 00:12:02,480 --> 00:12:07,520 that, that so many people are forced to have another job that 232 00:12:07,520 --> 00:12:09,440 they actually don't know they should have. 233 00:12:09,440 --> 00:12:11,200 Right. Because if you don't do this, 234 00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:14,360 and you also mentioned this, I think, like people 235 00:12:14,360 --> 00:12:17,000 subconsciously know they have to do something, right? 236 00:12:17,000 --> 00:12:20,240 Like your grandmother had the money under her bed, right? 237 00:12:20,240 --> 00:12:24,640 And then in some way it felt like she could hold on to it and 238 00:12:24,640 --> 00:12:26,440 it was still there after years, right? 239 00:12:26,440 --> 00:12:29,480 That was what savings was. But so. 240 00:12:29,560 --> 00:12:32,840 So people know that a bit, but they don't really know that it's 241 00:12:32,840 --> 00:12:36,160 an actual job like people like Peter have, right? 242 00:12:37,560 --> 00:12:40,880 How how did you approach this? Like, do you also see this like 243 00:12:40,880 --> 00:12:44,200 that right now or like how how how did that go for you? 244 00:12:44,280 --> 00:12:47,680 Was this voluntarily or you were really like, OK, I have to, I 245 00:12:47,680 --> 00:12:50,920 have some excess money. I need to do something. 246 00:12:51,480 --> 00:12:55,240 Yeah, well, I pretty much was on the hamster wheel, living, 247 00:12:55,640 --> 00:13:00,120 living hand to mouth, paycheck to paycheck for the first sort 248 00:13:00,120 --> 00:13:02,600 of two decades of of my existence, right? 249 00:13:02,600 --> 00:13:05,600 And it was only really when I hit about 30 that I started to 250 00:13:05,600 --> 00:13:08,640 critically assess and start to think about these things like 251 00:13:08,640 --> 00:13:10,160 retirement. We were starting a a young 252 00:13:10,160 --> 00:13:14,160 family, you know the job that I was in no longer was serving me. 253 00:13:14,160 --> 00:13:18,240 So I it was kind of the the, the point in my life where I shifted 254 00:13:18,240 --> 00:13:20,480 career. I, I, I I chose to go and get an 255 00:13:20,480 --> 00:13:25,000 apprenticeship, you know. And when I was looking out 256 00:13:25,000 --> 00:13:28,720 towards my future and my retirement age, we've got a 257 00:13:28,720 --> 00:13:30,640 thing in Australia called superannuation. 258 00:13:30,640 --> 00:13:34,840 It's basically like our 401K, our our forced savings 259 00:13:34,840 --> 00:13:38,160 retirement accounts, projecting that out into the future and 260 00:13:38,160 --> 00:13:40,800 realizing I don't think I'm going to have enough to be able 261 00:13:40,800 --> 00:13:45,320 to retire by the time I hit that number with the trajectory as it 262 00:13:45,320 --> 00:13:48,360 was. So it was really this, you know 263 00:13:48,640 --> 00:13:51,400 looking at I think you you hollowed a really good point 264 00:13:51,400 --> 00:13:56,440 Like we as wage earners, we spend time sweat and money, time 265 00:13:56,440 --> 00:13:59,240 sweat and energy and it's really about that energy piece. 266 00:13:59,240 --> 00:14:04,200 Like we we, we expend energy in order to be able to save energy 267 00:14:04,200 --> 00:14:11,000 to to spend later on And when you know the system is, the 268 00:14:11,040 --> 00:14:13,640 total system is working against you, like you know you're doing 269 00:14:13,640 --> 00:14:16,400 your best, you're going to work. Both mum and dad are in the 270 00:14:16,400 --> 00:14:19,840 workforce now full time. You know the kids are not 271 00:14:19,840 --> 00:14:23,640 getting you know looked after in in most scenarios by mum and dad 272 00:14:23,640 --> 00:14:25,400 anymore. It's like they're going to 273 00:14:25,400 --> 00:14:28,720 daycares and spending all their time in school and after school 274 00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:30,800 care and all this sort of thing. And it's really quite an 275 00:14:30,800 --> 00:14:33,840 insidious thing to think about that we're spending all this 276 00:14:33,840 --> 00:14:36,840 time and energy, yet we're not able to deploy that time and 277 00:14:36,840 --> 00:14:40,320 energy later on because we we we can't even save anything. 278 00:14:41,120 --> 00:14:42,920 There's nothing left at the end of each week. 279 00:14:42,920 --> 00:14:47,000 So it was really, that's where I I stopped and I said this, this 280 00:14:47,000 --> 00:14:50,400 path is not sustainable. Living this hand week to week, 281 00:14:50,400 --> 00:14:52,080 hand to hand. What can I do? 282 00:14:52,560 --> 00:14:58,240 What actions can I take in order to be able to make changes in in 283 00:14:58,240 --> 00:15:01,800 in in my life And I was I was grateful to respect that I I was 284 00:15:01,800 --> 00:15:06,120 able to look at that critically and and assess and and realize 285 00:15:06,120 --> 00:15:09,400 that what we were doing in that current state wasn't going to 286 00:15:09,400 --> 00:15:12,080 serve us into the future. And and it was a it was a life 287 00:15:12,080 --> 00:15:15,600 changing realization for me. And I sort of also when I look 288 00:15:15,600 --> 00:15:19,840 back and I reflect on that, it was, it was only obvious to me 289 00:15:19,840 --> 00:15:23,520 because I was living mouth to mouth, hand to mouth like I was 290 00:15:23,520 --> 00:15:27,760 living paycheck to paycheck. Like if you if you're perhaps 291 00:15:27,760 --> 00:15:31,800 even a little bit more advantageous, you might not even 292 00:15:32,240 --> 00:15:34,520 realize it. Like you might not even lift the 293 00:15:34,520 --> 00:15:40,040 lid off and start really tearing under the underlying the the 294 00:15:40,040 --> 00:15:42,880 criticality about understanding the system in which we're trying 295 00:15:42,880 --> 00:15:43,880 to operate in. Right. 296 00:15:44,760 --> 00:15:48,680 So you know it and it's we shouldn't be like This is why, 297 00:15:48,680 --> 00:15:51,320 why I'm so passionate, why we started Looking Glass Education 298 00:15:51,320 --> 00:15:53,640 while we wrote the book. It's because I'm having these 299 00:15:53,640 --> 00:15:57,400 conversations with my peer group, realising that I, you 300 00:15:57,400 --> 00:16:01,240 know, after two years worth of studying into financial markets 301 00:16:01,240 --> 00:16:04,560 and macroeconomics, and realising that nobody knows 302 00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:10,040 this, nobody understands this. And how do I try and distill 303 00:16:10,040 --> 00:16:13,000 down what was then by that point, thousands of hours worth 304 00:16:13,000 --> 00:16:17,720 of research into just really easy to understand language that 305 00:16:17,720 --> 00:16:22,600 people can take away, You know, spend a a couple of hours and 306 00:16:22,600 --> 00:16:26,000 get at least enough curiosity to keep the education journey 307 00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:28,160 going. Because nobody is reaching out 308 00:16:28,160 --> 00:16:32,560 to these people from government, you know, to to let them know 309 00:16:32,680 --> 00:16:36,640 that our system's corrupt, our system's no longer working, no 310 00:16:36,640 --> 00:16:38,760 longer serving you. You need to take some action. 311 00:16:41,400 --> 00:16:44,200 Yeah, I think 2 two things I like the energy analogy is 312 00:16:44,200 --> 00:16:46,760 really good, right? So when you take the risk with 313 00:16:46,760 --> 00:16:51,800 your job or venture, you expend energy or well energy within 314 00:16:51,800 --> 00:16:55,120 certain time, right. And the and the time is finite. 315 00:16:55,280 --> 00:16:59,080 Of course we all, nobody knows how long they have, but we get 316 00:16:59,080 --> 00:17:01,120 rewarded with the technology, right? 317 00:17:01,120 --> 00:17:05,680 The money that we use for which we, you know, we shake hands 318 00:17:05,680 --> 00:17:10,079 for, you know, a certain reward amount of units for the energy 319 00:17:10,079 --> 00:17:13,359 we we expend, right. And so actually the amount of 320 00:17:13,359 --> 00:17:15,720 money you receive is a representation of the energy 321 00:17:15,720 --> 00:17:20,440 that you expended, right? And also if you are, let's say, 322 00:17:20,480 --> 00:17:23,960 a Carpenter, that also involves the energy, you know, the cost 323 00:17:23,960 --> 00:17:26,880 of the wood, for example, that you use, which also cost energy 324 00:17:26,880 --> 00:17:30,560 to create, right. And so the technology is a way 325 00:17:30,560 --> 00:17:33,760 to represent that amount of energy and that is then your 326 00:17:33,760 --> 00:17:36,680 reward, right. But because that technology is 327 00:17:37,040 --> 00:17:39,200 corrupted, I think that's the right word, right. 328 00:17:39,200 --> 00:17:43,520 And it's not necessarily, I think, I don't know, I think I 329 00:17:43,520 --> 00:17:46,200 talked about this with Jeff Booth about the words theft and 330 00:17:46,200 --> 00:17:48,360 corruption. And you know, like for some 331 00:17:48,360 --> 00:17:52,120 people those are like hard words to use, right? 332 00:17:52,120 --> 00:17:55,440 But but I think what you mean by corrupt is that the system we 333 00:17:55,440 --> 00:17:57,160 use is corrupted. It is. 334 00:17:57,480 --> 00:18:02,360 Well this system is actually flawed from from from the, from 335 00:18:02,360 --> 00:18:04,400 the get go basically. But it's been corrupted. 336 00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:08,040 It doesn't work as intended or how it's told to you. 337 00:18:08,080 --> 00:18:11,240 So when you get rewarded in the money that should represent 338 00:18:11,240 --> 00:18:14,360 certain amount of energy, you can keep it for 10 years. 339 00:18:14,440 --> 00:18:18,040 You know the the coins and the bills, but the energy they 340 00:18:18,040 --> 00:18:22,400 represent has become way and way and way less. 341 00:18:22,400 --> 00:18:26,520 And so that's why well, you have that extra day job that you 342 00:18:26,520 --> 00:18:29,280 probably don't realize that that you have right to figure out how 343 00:18:29,280 --> 00:18:32,920 can I at least keep this energy at the same level. 344 00:18:32,920 --> 00:18:35,320 So yeah, I think that I think that's a great illustration. 345 00:18:35,320 --> 00:18:40,080 But like how how do you think our beliefs or well, as you 346 00:18:40,080 --> 00:18:43,320 mentioned like your peer group. I have the same experience only 347 00:18:43,320 --> 00:18:47,000 when I started to figure this out, I also figured out that no 348 00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:50,320 one understands this. Like, no, no one looks at this, 349 00:18:50,320 --> 00:18:51,880 especially not in Western countries. 350 00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:54,880 By the way, I think that's even more prudent, right? 351 00:18:54,880 --> 00:18:58,080 Because the money just works or something in, in some way, 352 00:18:58,080 --> 00:19:00,240 right? So there's no incentive to 353 00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:02,680 study. But how do you think our, like, 354 00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:06,400 flawed understanding of money actually then shapes society? 355 00:19:06,400 --> 00:19:09,640 As you mentioned, like both parents have to work, children 356 00:19:09,640 --> 00:19:14,000 go to a daycare. Parents don't have control over, 357 00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:16,160 for example, what their kids get taught. 358 00:19:17,520 --> 00:19:19,880 People have to take more risk to mitigate the energy loss. 359 00:19:19,880 --> 00:19:21,480 They gamble, do all these stupid things. 360 00:19:21,480 --> 00:19:23,200 Like what? What are your thoughts there? 361 00:19:24,000 --> 00:19:25,480 Yeah. So there's there's a lot of 362 00:19:25,480 --> 00:19:27,480 downstream effects of of of money. 363 00:19:27,480 --> 00:19:33,720 So I I really see money as the communication layer between how 364 00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:38,080 humans communicate value. So when I go and I expend my 365 00:19:38,080 --> 00:19:41,880 energy in my in my way in in my day job and I earn this wage, 366 00:19:42,360 --> 00:19:45,400 that's what I'm relying on it to do, is to store that energy for 367 00:19:45,400 --> 00:19:48,640 me to deploy later on. Because I've I've, I've brought 368 00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:52,600 forward, I've tried to expend energy now in a concentrated 8 369 00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:55,240 hours a day 10 hours a day whatever that time period you 370 00:19:55,240 --> 00:19:59,400 work in order to obtain units that are supposed to maintain 371 00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:01,520 that energy for me to deploy later on. 372 00:20:01,840 --> 00:20:05,400 And when that money and I and I agree with you that that word 373 00:20:05,400 --> 00:20:08,600 corruption can be a triggering word, perhaps it's better to say 374 00:20:08,600 --> 00:20:11,680 like Co opted or you know somewhat obscured. 375 00:20:12,040 --> 00:20:14,920 Flawed exactly. So I I don't mean there's a 376 00:20:14,920 --> 00:20:17,760 nefarious centre of people, you know? 377 00:20:18,280 --> 00:20:22,040 Deliberately trying to destroy the the currency that may very 378 00:20:22,040 --> 00:20:24,280 well be the case but that's not the point I'm I'm trying to 379 00:20:24,280 --> 00:20:28,760 make. But when when we destroy what is 380 00:20:28,760 --> 00:20:32,080 otherwise so Fiat currency takes zero energy to print to to 381 00:20:32,080 --> 00:20:34,520 exactly and we don't even print it anymore like this word 382 00:20:34,560 --> 00:20:36,000 printing. Absolutely. 383 00:20:36,040 --> 00:20:38,880 I think we should find another word for it, because all they 384 00:20:38,880 --> 00:20:43,360 add is digital zeros to their Ledger and so money now is 385 00:20:43,360 --> 00:20:46,080 simply just a. Legendaries, right? 386 00:20:46,200 --> 00:20:48,000 That is. Also, sorry to interrupt, That's 387 00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:51,000 also the I saw someone say or explain. 388 00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:53,280 The word Fiat in Latin is let there be. 389 00:20:53,960 --> 00:20:55,920 So it's let there be money, right? 390 00:20:55,960 --> 00:20:59,040 It appears currently, right? It's not even printed. 391 00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:00,640 There's no ink, There's no paper. 392 00:21:00,760 --> 00:21:03,560 Like all these things. That's a fallacy, right? 393 00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:05,880 It just appears as new numbers, yeah. 394 00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:08,880 And even our modern day translation, many believe Fiat 395 00:21:08,880 --> 00:21:12,680 to just mean by decree. So we we've, we've, yeah, 396 00:21:12,680 --> 00:21:13,680 terminate. This is my. 397 00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:17,360 They say it's there. Exactly, exactly. 398 00:21:17,360 --> 00:21:20,360 So it's even. There's one layer of abstraction 399 00:21:20,360 --> 00:21:23,520 away from energy, right? So we had Fiat currency. 400 00:21:23,520 --> 00:21:27,080 It took some what of some energy to to make the paper, put the 401 00:21:27,080 --> 00:21:29,320 ink on and print it out of the printer. 402 00:21:29,320 --> 00:21:32,600 But even now we've got another layer of abstraction where these 403 00:21:32,600 --> 00:21:35,200 units are just introduced at will. 404 00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:39,200 So and and all we need to think about is that like in a really 405 00:21:39,200 --> 00:21:42,280 simple example if we've got a finite world of finite goods and 406 00:21:42,280 --> 00:21:45,720 services and we introduced extra currency units competing with 407 00:21:45,720 --> 00:21:49,840 those same goods and services, it stands to reason that process 408 00:21:49,840 --> 00:21:52,000 is going to go up. It's it's a bit of a you don't 409 00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:55,520 need to be have a degree in economics to to understand that 410 00:21:56,040 --> 00:21:59,000 prices found between the equilibrium between a supply and 411 00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:02,240 demand of a product or service. So when you introduce extra 412 00:22:02,440 --> 00:22:05,880 units competing with that same amount of goods and services, of 413 00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:09,360 course it's going to result in excess prices and so. 414 00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:11,400 Add something to that, Absolutely. 415 00:22:11,400 --> 00:22:14,360 You know, yeah, goods and services that if you represent 416 00:22:14,360 --> 00:22:17,800 that as the productivity, right. It's everything we do or 417 00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:20,840 everything we create, right? And then again we go back to 418 00:22:21,080 --> 00:22:27,400 that is expending energy or or using energy to for example, we 419 00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:32,000 can say also use stored energy, right, the strength of wood or 420 00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:35,440 surf or sand or make cement or whatever, like, right. 421 00:22:35,440 --> 00:22:37,920 So everything in the productivity is a representation 422 00:22:37,920 --> 00:22:41,160 of energy. But that is a finite thing also, 423 00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:44,160 as you said, right. Because all the people together, 424 00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:48,560 at least the people that can work and add, right, not the 425 00:22:48,560 --> 00:22:51,440 children. That's a finite number of 426 00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:54,440 people, finite number of hours, finite number of energy. 427 00:22:56,120 --> 00:23:01,960 But yeah, if you start valuing that in a currency, right, what 428 00:23:01,960 --> 00:23:05,560 we think is money is a currency that can be created infinitely, 429 00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:09,840 that that's going to create a weird situation, right, Because 430 00:23:09,840 --> 00:23:15,200 the energy used to grow an apple has not changed since, you know, 431 00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:18,200 the appearance of apples. And that is the entire point, I 432 00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:21,560 think, right, that that why is the apple, Why does the apple 433 00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:24,440 cost more units now than 40 years ago? 434 00:23:24,440 --> 00:23:27,240 It's not because the apple cost more energy to make, it's 435 00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:30,800 because the units that you use to price, quote UN quote it in 436 00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:34,480 that became worth less. So you need more of the units to 437 00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:38,080 get the same amount of energy that is captured in the apple. 438 00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:42,320 Oh 100% that's a that's a really good point and and I think like 439 00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:46,480 just to go back to the the earlier example of it distorts, 440 00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:49,160 it completely distorts us as humans and how we navigate 441 00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:54,080 society. Yeah like how we choose to to 442 00:23:54,120 --> 00:23:57,280 expend our energy is now completely distorted because the 443 00:23:57,280 --> 00:24:01,320 fundamental communication layout is, is no longer a yardstick of 444 00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:06,400 which represents fair value. So you know this is where we see 445 00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:09,840 all these downstream effects now throughout and this it it 446 00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:13,040 touches on business, it touches on politics, it touches on the 447 00:24:13,120 --> 00:24:17,240 the family unit, you know Co Co founder of Looking Glass said 448 00:24:17,240 --> 00:24:18,880 Bunny's just got a phenomenal book out. 449 00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:21,360 If your listeners haven't heard of it or read it called the 450 00:24:21,360 --> 00:24:24,760 hidden Cost of Money. And he digs down like he's done 451 00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:27,640 such a great job of digging down into this very conversation 452 00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:30,680 we're having right now in and around what are the downstream 453 00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:33,640 effects of money and what are the downstream effects of our 454 00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:37,000 ability to print money out of thin air and how does it really 455 00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:40,520 change us fundamentally as humans Like how has it impacted 456 00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:42,880 us and how we choose to navigate through society. 457 00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:47,200 And I think one of the most deplorable outcomes of that is, 458 00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:48,960 is this effect on the family unit. 459 00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:51,840 Like, you know, having mum and dad both forced into the 460 00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:54,520 workforce. Like we know, you know, And I'm 461 00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:57,360 not trying to say that having women in the workforce by any 462 00:24:57,360 --> 00:24:59,200 stretch of the imagination is a bad thing. 463 00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:03,080 But what it's it's really done is what I've got a lot of female 464 00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:06,360 friends who would not want nothing more than to stay home 465 00:25:06,360 --> 00:25:08,640 and raise their beautiful little kids, but they're forced into 466 00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:11,640 the workforce because they've got to keep up up to date. 467 00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:13,960 And I think that's the really empowering thing about Bitcoin 468 00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:17,880 in particular is, is you know, you talk to bitcoiners who have 469 00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:22,480 been in the space a little while and and most people really the 470 00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:25,280 purchasing power and the store of value thing is what brings us 471 00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:27,360 in. But it's really the optionality 472 00:25:27,360 --> 00:25:31,760 for you as a human, optionality for you as a family and what 473 00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:36,040 that affords you over time. So you can sit back when you're 474 00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:39,840 you've been able to appreciate your purchasing power, you've 475 00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:41,680 been able to increase your family wealth. 476 00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:46,720 You can step back and critically assess how it is that you expend 477 00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:49,000 your energy in future. Would you rather point it 478 00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:52,080 towards your children? You know And and that might be 479 00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:53,680 mum, it might be dad, like you know. 480 00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:55,800 It doesn't doesn't matter who that is, but at least it gives 481 00:25:55,800 --> 00:25:58,440 you the options to be able to reassess how it is that you're 482 00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:02,320 expending that energy and point that towards it comes back to 483 00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:06,360 Maslow's Hierarchy of needs. Once you've got food, shelter, 484 00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:11,000 you know all of the base layer of your needs, your primal needs 485 00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:14,680 as a human in your survival, you can then start to work towards 486 00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:17,480 this notion of self actualization and you can only 487 00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:18,680 do that through purchasing power. 488 00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:22,320 You can only do that through storing energy and being able to 489 00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:25,520 assess and and and and critically look at how you want 490 00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:27,840 to deploy that energy in the in the future. 491 00:26:28,120 --> 00:26:32,840 And I think that's ultimately for most wage earners, I think 492 00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:35,760 they get that pretty quickly. Once they get that, it's like, 493 00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:38,680 well, hang on, You're telling me if I just save my little ass off 494 00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:42,640 right now, put as much energy as I can in now, bring forward as 495 00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:45,240 much as I can to to try and do the hustle. 496 00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:48,320 And I'm able to store it in something that I come back in 497 00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:51,440 four years time and I can sit back down and go, holy crap, 498 00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:52,880 look what I've been able to achieve. 499 00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:55,840 Yeah, well, this is one of the things I wanted to ask you. 500 00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:58,400 Like what's your favorite mental model for explaining Bitcoin? 501 00:26:58,400 --> 00:26:59,960 But I think this is a great one, right? 502 00:26:59,960 --> 00:27:03,360 Because everyone wants to do this, right? 503 00:27:03,360 --> 00:27:08,400 You don't want to be like, I know women in this example who 504 00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:10,880 work so they can pay for the daycare. 505 00:27:13,160 --> 00:27:17,000 Interesting situation, you know, like, OK, well, you know, the 506 00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:20,200 work is perhaps for yourself. But if you know it's not 507 00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:25,440 something that you absolutely love to do, why are you doing 508 00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:28,800 this right? There's no contribution to 509 00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:31,480 productivity in in in that sense, right? 510 00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:34,800 You know I think like it's a it's a good example because I 511 00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:38,720 know a lot of women as well personally and it and it might 512 00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:40,800 not be paying one for one but it's definitely a large 513 00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:43,840 percentage of the wage. But what they're what like this 514 00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:48,320 whole notion of they're forced into taking swapping their whole 515 00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:53,360 40 hours a week into paying for daycare only to achieve that 516 00:27:53,360 --> 00:27:57,920 extra $100 at the margin and but that $100 is meaningful but it's 517 00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:01,040 so meaningful that they're forced into having to swap that 518 00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:04,320 because they can't afford the sacrifice of that extra 1 or 519 00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:06,160 $200.00 at the end of that pay week. 520 00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:09,360 And it's a it's it's really like most. 521 00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:12,000 And again I just want to highlight the point like if 522 00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:15,480 you're a career oriented woman and and you've gone to uni and 523 00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:17,600 all of this stuff and you and you want to do that that's 524 00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:21,520 that's fine. But most people have been that 525 00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:23,680 option's been taken away from. Them exactly. 526 00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:27,080 Their optionality, optionality is gone, right? 527 00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:31,080 And I think that's also the point where I wanted to go is 528 00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:36,400 like everyone wants to figure out what is it that I want to do 529 00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:40,360 right? What, what am I here to to 530 00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:43,360 contribute, right. Like what is my, what is my 531 00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:47,640 thing. And you know, some people know 532 00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:50,080 that when they're in high school, most people don't, you 533 00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:52,320 know, and that takes that takes some time. 534 00:28:52,320 --> 00:28:55,240 But in order to get there, I think you said it perfectly. 535 00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:59,240 You have to hustle in a sense, so you can. 536 00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:03,760 I always saw money like this, but eventually I like, I always 537 00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:06,440 saw money like this. But it's funny, I only realized 538 00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:09,960 later is I always saw money as buying time, right? 539 00:29:10,280 --> 00:29:14,040 So yeah, you hustle, you have money so you can buy time, so 540 00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:18,480 you can figure out what is the risk I can take into the future, 541 00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:21,040 right? And maybe if I if I'm on this 542 00:29:21,040 --> 00:29:26,400 career path but I want to go do something else, I need time to 543 00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:30,160 study or figure out what that entails or you know what? 544 00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:32,840 What whatever, right? And I think that's what safety 545 00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:37,800 and also talks about about a lot that people discount the future 546 00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:39,800 and they overvalue the present, right. 547 00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:43,960 But the our broken money enforces that even, right? 548 00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:47,040 Like people don't they? They don't, as you mentioned 549 00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:50,440 this, you know, again, the woman in example, but she goes to work 550 00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:52,760 to pay for the daycare. They have $100 extra. 551 00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:57,000 And then what if if you're not happy and you're stuck, like 552 00:29:57,000 --> 00:29:58,400 what? What, what does that do with the 553 00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:01,200 quality of your life? You have the $100, but like are 554 00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:04,000 you, are you happy? You know, but but once you get 555 00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:10,000 on that path, you basically, yeah, kind of block yourself 556 00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:13,160 from, from figuring it out for yourself again, right. 557 00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:16,760 Because then you're in that you're in that loop, as you, I 558 00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:19,720 think, realized for yourself as well, right? 559 00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:23,920 And I think that is the entire point, that that is because how 560 00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:27,360 you're rewarded is something that is not working for you. 561 00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:28,880 It's actually working against you. 562 00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:31,320 Yeah. And I think it's this little 563 00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:34,680 self feedback mechanism. It's a it's a closed loop system 564 00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:37,920 where if you if you've got that $100 spare at the end of the 565 00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:41,360 week, but you know putting it in the bank longer term is not 566 00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:44,800 going to do anything for you. You're more entitled to bring 567 00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:47,560 forth that instant gratification. 568 00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:50,680 So you're gonna go and buy that carton of beer just to get the 569 00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:53,560 buzz on the weekend. So it starts to then feed into 570 00:30:54,320 --> 00:30:56,880 probably less than ideal behaviours. 571 00:30:57,200 --> 00:31:00,400 Then what would serve you better as a human longer term? 572 00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:04,560 Like, you know, alcoholism and drug addictions and, you know, 573 00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:07,000 sitting on your butt watching Netflix, 'cause you're just. 574 00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:09,960 Exhausted term gratification. Whatever short term 575 00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:13,920 gratification you can just to give you a sense of at least 576 00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:16,960 it's worth it 'cause I can now sit down and do this right. 577 00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:21,040 Whereas us you can have any conversation with with any big 578 00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:24,960 corner and we're very much more long term thinking because we've 579 00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:28,880 been able to secure that in in a means that we know when we look 580 00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:31,160 forward there's hope. And that's used that I think 581 00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:34,560 that word hopes overused a lot. Like it's a bit of a cliche, but 582 00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:39,640 it really does give you then hope in the future to know that 583 00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:44,040 that optionality is coming. So you know there's a path out 584 00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:46,680 of this hamster wheel like you've got. 585 00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:50,600 You've got this hope in and around being able to change the 586 00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:54,240 outcomes for you and your family over time. 587 00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:55,840 You've just got to stay the course. 588 00:31:56,440 --> 00:32:01,680 Yeah, I think it yeah, I love this topic, right? 589 00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:05,600 Because I think we don't. We'll talk about Bitcoin, but I 590 00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:10,000 think this is the problem that people need to realize that 591 00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:13,600 they're in, right? And I said it many times on the 592 00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:15,240 podcast. When I was 30 and I had a 593 00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:19,000 mortgage and I worked at a bank, I did not realize what I was in, 594 00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:21,960 right? So everyone has this, right? 595 00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:26,200 Like everyone has this up to, I hope a certain degree. 596 00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:29,840 But most people are are totally unaware of this. 597 00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:32,040 And I think this is the entire point. 598 00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:35,440 The entire point as you just mentioned is the the hope for 599 00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:43,440 the future is can I createspace in you know time to take 600 00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:49,000 ownership for myself instead of having other people that don't 601 00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:52,080 care about me, not in a malicious way, but more in like 602 00:32:52,080 --> 00:32:54,880 they also have their own life. You know, they don't care that 603 00:32:55,240 --> 00:32:57,760 you know your dad's and I'm Brahman, you know, whatever, 604 00:32:57,760 --> 00:33:00,280 they're doing their job. But there's other people that 605 00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:03,440 that influence your life basically. 606 00:33:03,640 --> 00:33:07,240 And once you realize that, then I feel that is kind of like this 607 00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:11,160 matrix point right, red, blue pill kind of thing like OK, so 608 00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:13,080 there's other people that influence my life. 609 00:33:14,560 --> 00:33:17,960 Is it helping me or not And if you realize that it's not then 610 00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:19,480 like you cannot really look back. 611 00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:21,760 Right. And that is the red pill moment. 612 00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:25,320 I think in a sense that that hopefully will give you the 613 00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:30,720 urgency to be like OK I need I need to study this in some way 614 00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:35,600 shape or form right. And yeah, I think if we then get 615 00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:39,320 to Bitcoin, Bitcoin eventually gives you the opportunity to to 616 00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:42,680 to create that space towards the future for yourself because it 617 00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:45,120 actually gives you provable certainty. 618 00:33:46,120 --> 00:33:49,360 It's the ultimate transparent thing, right? 619 00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:53,440 Anyone listening to us should not listen to us. 620 00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:56,920 They should study so they can verify it for themselves, right? 621 00:33:57,240 --> 00:33:59,680 I think that's the entire point. Like, once you take that 622 00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:03,680 ownership and you study, then you realize that you can 623 00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:07,400 actually do it, right? You don't have to give your 624 00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:09,800 responsibility away to other people that don't care about 625 00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:12,080 you. Yeah, and there's this thing in 626 00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:15,840 the Bitcoin space. Odell's famous for coining it. 627 00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:20,400 Be humble Stack Sats, right? But I I think to a degree, one 628 00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:23,719 of the best onboarding mechanisms is is to a degree, 629 00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:26,960 not to be so humble. Like, don't be shy of 630 00:34:27,960 --> 00:34:31,840 celebrating the optionality that's provided for you as a 631 00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:34,320 bitcoiner. So as you move forward and and 632 00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:37,040 you know, don't be shy about the extra optionality that's 633 00:34:37,040 --> 00:34:39,600 afforded you and the and the lifestyle choices that it now 634 00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:42,159 affords you. Because it's a a great 635 00:34:42,199 --> 00:34:44,520 onboarding mechanism. So your friends and family are 636 00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:47,360 going to look at you and go, what's that guy done? 637 00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:50,360 How come he's able to pull his kids out of school and go around 638 00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:51,880 Australia for a year in a caravan? 639 00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:54,520 What is it about him? What has he, what has he done? 640 00:34:54,520 --> 00:34:57,280 I want that for me. Therefore, maybe I'll have a 641 00:34:57,280 --> 00:35:01,280 conversation about how he's able to do that and it's quite 642 00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:02,800 simple. I was able to do that through 643 00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:06,920 Bitcoin, you know, so I I think to a degree, don't don't be so 644 00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:08,640 humble. Don't be afraid to celebrate 645 00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:13,000 publicly with within your closed space, your successes in and 646 00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:14,320 around what this thing's done for you. 647 00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:18,200 Because it's it's it's a life changing mechanism and I think 648 00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:22,200 the more people that do that it, it sort of reinforces this 649 00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:25,560 notion on too late because most people think oh I've missed that 650 00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:28,840 like all the gains are gone but like we're in this precipice of, 651 00:35:29,560 --> 00:35:31,880 you know, institutional adoption coming. 652 00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:35,560 The gains aren't even we haven't even begun to realise the 653 00:35:35,560 --> 00:35:38,080 potential gains that are are possible through the purchasing 654 00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:41,440 appreciation and purchasing power because we've got a finite 655 00:35:41,680 --> 00:35:44,400 source of this. We know that everything else is 656 00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:47,800 forever increasing. So in Bitcoin terms everything 657 00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:50,720 becomes cheaper over time. So there is no right time to 658 00:35:50,720 --> 00:35:52,840 start. The right time to start was 13 659 00:35:52,840 --> 00:35:56,360 years ago. Yeah, you know, the next best is 660 00:35:56,360 --> 00:35:57,800 today. Yeah. 661 00:35:58,120 --> 00:36:01,600 Well, and it is because the money that you are forced to use 662 00:36:02,240 --> 00:36:04,880 will go down over over time, right? 663 00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:07,160 I think that's also pretty verifiable. 664 00:36:07,160 --> 00:36:10,320 I I think it would be nice if we build a bridge between what we 665 00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:13,520 just talked about and then if we go to Bitcoin, right. 666 00:36:13,520 --> 00:36:16,920 So you studied investing. You were like, there's nothing 667 00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:19,360 of Fair value that I can put my money in. 668 00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:23,400 Eventually you found Bitcoin. Like what? 669 00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:26,240 What was your aha moment where you thought, OK, this is 670 00:36:26,240 --> 00:36:28,320 something that I should dive into. 671 00:36:29,200 --> 00:36:32,720 Yeah. So the the real, so I guess the 672 00:36:32,720 --> 00:36:35,640 pathway was from realizing that there was nothing worth a fair 673 00:36:35,640 --> 00:36:40,040 value and then looking at the formulas that I was using to be 674 00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:44,240 able to determine whether something was valued at fair 675 00:36:44,240 --> 00:36:46,840 value or not. And one of the important things, 676 00:36:47,240 --> 00:36:50,200 one of the important variables that goes into that formula is 677 00:36:50,720 --> 00:36:55,240 your discounted cash flow sorry your your your discount rate and 678 00:36:55,240 --> 00:36:58,360 that's normally compared to what they call the risk free rate of 679 00:36:58,360 --> 00:37:03,200 return and that is normally AUS treasury bond for example or a 680 00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:05,960 government bond depending on on wherever you're domiciled. 681 00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:08,880 So the the thesis behind that is if I can lend the government 682 00:37:08,880 --> 00:37:11,640 money and we know that they can print it out of thin air, it's 683 00:37:11,640 --> 00:37:13,760 deemed to be the risk free rate because they'll just keep 684 00:37:13,760 --> 00:37:17,240 printing it right. And so that is the comparison 685 00:37:17,240 --> 00:37:20,440 rate by which goes into your formula to then compare 686 00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:23,680 everything else in the world like if I can lend them for 687 00:37:23,680 --> 00:37:27,280 money for free what do I want in return if I'm gonna go out on 688 00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:34,080 the risk curve and and what's that worth to me in terms of you 689 00:37:34,080 --> 00:37:37,760 know a return what do I expect as a return to go out and take 690 00:37:37,760 --> 00:37:40,480 on excess risk. So that's the fundamental thesis 691 00:37:40,480 --> 00:37:44,200 behind how a discount cash flow model works is you're doing a 692 00:37:44,200 --> 00:37:46,480 comparison against this risk free rate of return. 693 00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:50,760 So when I was looking at this and I realized that you know 694 00:37:50,760 --> 00:37:54,080 they're inversely proportional. So the the lower that the 695 00:37:54,080 --> 00:37:57,560 dollar, sorry, the the interest rate goes towards 0. 696 00:37:58,320 --> 00:38:00,120 Everything else trends toward Infinity. 697 00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:03,600 My willingness to buy, you know, they're inversely proportional 698 00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:05,200 stuff. One's going down towards 0, the 699 00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:08,600 others heading towards Infinity. So that was really the the start 700 00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:10,760 of me then trying to understand money. 701 00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:13,720 So how does interest rates work? How do interest rates get 702 00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:16,960 controlled? Why are they near 0 and how do 703 00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:20,040 they, what's the control mechanism by which they they set 704 00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:22,320 those interest rates? Because we know we wait on the 705 00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:25,200 Fed or your central Bank of choice. 706 00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:27,360 Like for us in Australia, it's the Reserve Bank of Australia. 707 00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:30,280 They meet every month and then they dictate what the cash price 708 00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:33,320 is going to be and then that then flows through everything 709 00:38:33,320 --> 00:38:35,440 else within the financial system. 710 00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:40,560 So when you realize and you understand what it takes to 711 00:38:40,560 --> 00:38:42,880 control interest rates, it's basically just through money 712 00:38:42,880 --> 00:38:45,440 printing. And then that was really where I 713 00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:49,520 probably landed on Gold 1st and went, oh, OK, now I'm a gold 714 00:38:49,520 --> 00:38:54,080 bug, this, this sound money thesis scarcity these, you know, 715 00:38:54,080 --> 00:38:56,840 and it was really around trying to understand well if this is 716 00:38:56,840 --> 00:39:00,440 true and we're in, we're trending towards an inflationary 717 00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:03,360 environment where interest rates are below the rate of inflation 718 00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:07,080 and we know that our purchasing power depreciates if we're not 719 00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:09,280 beating inflation. That's the fundamental thesis. 720 00:39:09,280 --> 00:39:10,680 You've got to get above inflation. 721 00:39:11,640 --> 00:39:15,120 Maybe to to to explain because I I love where you're going. 722 00:39:15,680 --> 00:39:19,440 The the interest rates set by the central bank basically 723 00:39:19,440 --> 00:39:24,760 determine how fast or slow, you know what the rate is of the 724 00:39:24,760 --> 00:39:30,400 devaluation of the money. Do I say that correctly? 725 00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:33,720 Well, yeah, How much the money costs basically. 726 00:39:33,720 --> 00:39:35,840 Yes, that's that's the. Yeah, yeah. 727 00:39:36,240 --> 00:39:38,960 What is the cost of capital? So what is the cost to borrow 728 00:39:38,960 --> 00:39:44,200 money and then what's the? Inflation rate of how how fast 729 00:39:44,640 --> 00:39:46,560 it gets evaluated, yeah. Yes, exactly. 730 00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:49,360 And and they control it so that they're trying to control 731 00:39:49,360 --> 00:39:52,840 inflation and that the easiest lever for them to do that is 732 00:39:52,840 --> 00:39:55,280 through interest rates. So if they, yeah, can control 733 00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:59,360 the money flow and the cost of capital, they think they can 734 00:39:59,360 --> 00:40:01,600 contain this beast that's called inflation, so. 735 00:40:01,720 --> 00:40:06,040 Higher rates gives a slower money flow because less people 736 00:40:06,040 --> 00:40:10,720 will be able to afford, slash, borrow right, new money that 737 00:40:10,720 --> 00:40:15,400 then enters the system, yeah, that's more money because more 738 00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:19,320 money, more units entering the system will result in a a lower 739 00:40:19,320 --> 00:40:21,800 valuation of each unit and that is the inflation. 740 00:40:22,240 --> 00:40:23,680 Exactly right. Yes, yes. 741 00:40:23,680 --> 00:40:27,120 And then so when you look at the inflation rate and when you 742 00:40:27,120 --> 00:40:30,760 realize that your interest rate is below the rate of inflation, 743 00:40:31,680 --> 00:40:35,480 we now look at what, what type of assets perform well 744 00:40:35,480 --> 00:40:38,480 throughout history in that type of environment and that's where 745 00:40:38,480 --> 00:40:42,640 you you land on fixed and hard assets, things, things that 746 00:40:42,640 --> 00:40:45,760 can't be printed out of thin air is basically what that means so. 747 00:40:45,760 --> 00:40:48,520 Hard asset is something that's difficult to create. 748 00:40:48,760 --> 00:40:50,240 Correct. Exactly right. 749 00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:52,960 Exactly right. So that's finite things, scarce 750 00:40:52,960 --> 00:40:54,680 things. So to a degree, it's real 751 00:40:54,680 --> 00:40:56,640 estate. And you can argue there's some, 752 00:40:56,640 --> 00:40:59,080 there's some nuance in and around, you know, their ability 753 00:40:59,080 --> 00:41:01,120 to add a floor to a skyscraper, for example. 754 00:41:01,120 --> 00:41:04,400 So you know they can control, you know, society. 755 00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:07,040 When I say they can control, there's no one obviously central 756 00:41:07,040 --> 00:41:10,160 planning that necessarily, but like there's ability for you to 757 00:41:10,160 --> 00:41:13,040 inflate real estate to a degree. But real estate's a really good 758 00:41:13,040 --> 00:41:15,840 thing for most people to understand, like, OK, they can't 759 00:41:16,000 --> 00:41:19,000 necessarily create more land or it's very hard to create more 760 00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:21,480 land. So that's that's usually an easy 761 00:41:21,480 --> 00:41:23,960 thing for people to understand. And that's where you land on 762 00:41:24,440 --> 00:41:26,800 ultimately probably precious metals as well. 763 00:41:27,000 --> 00:41:29,600 They can't be printed out of thin air, things like energy, 764 00:41:29,760 --> 00:41:31,160 they can't be printed out of thin air. 765 00:41:31,560 --> 00:41:34,480 And then that's where I was probably turned towards 766 00:41:34,600 --> 00:41:38,080 understanding the monetary history around gold, the gold 767 00:41:38,080 --> 00:41:42,080 standard and why we left the gold standard and really like 768 00:41:42,080 --> 00:41:45,200 looking at why gold failed. So if gold was this great money, 769 00:41:45,560 --> 00:41:46,680 how come we don't use it anymore? 770 00:41:47,120 --> 00:41:51,080 And it's really around you know and this is where Fiat currency 771 00:41:51,840 --> 00:41:54,600 started to proliferate was around the 70s, like obviously 772 00:41:54,600 --> 00:41:57,760 1971 was the day that we left the gold standard officially. 773 00:41:59,000 --> 00:42:01,760 But it was really around understanding probably what were 774 00:42:01,760 --> 00:42:03,360 the drivers behind that decision. 775 00:42:03,400 --> 00:42:06,880 And I think one of the, the, the large ones is this notion of the 776 00:42:06,880 --> 00:42:10,040 fact that gold's really hard to deal with when you open up like 777 00:42:10,040 --> 00:42:13,280 globalization started. We started looking at global 778 00:42:13,280 --> 00:42:15,440 trade more. So you know, aeroplanes were a 779 00:42:15,440 --> 00:42:20,400 lot more prolific, you know, shipping lanes, all of this 780 00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:23,080 stuff. The world started opening up and 781 00:42:23,080 --> 00:42:26,240 when you are on a gold standard, you've either got have an 782 00:42:26,240 --> 00:42:30,320 inherent amount of trust in a in a centralized system or you've 783 00:42:30,320 --> 00:42:33,320 got to physically move gold to settle trade. 784 00:42:33,560 --> 00:42:35,920 So if you've got two separate countries, you know, say you've 785 00:42:35,920 --> 00:42:39,680 got France and Japan and they're geographically separated, how do 786 00:42:39,680 --> 00:42:42,760 they settle the trade balance when one operates in Euro or 787 00:42:42,760 --> 00:42:47,080 francs back then rather and the other operates in in in yen. 788 00:42:47,840 --> 00:42:50,040 Maybe France doesn't want yen. So you're going to have to 789 00:42:50,040 --> 00:42:53,680 settle on gold now that that gold needs to either be directly 790 00:42:53,680 --> 00:42:55,720 settled. So France has got to ship it, 791 00:42:55,840 --> 00:42:59,720 secure it, send it, protect it the whole way. 792 00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:03,960 And then if you and then, yeah, Japan gets it, like, do I trust 793 00:43:03,960 --> 00:43:05,440 France? No, probably not. 794 00:43:05,440 --> 00:43:08,040 So I'm gonna cast it, I'm gonna probably melt it down, I'm gonna 795 00:43:08,040 --> 00:43:10,360 recast it. And all of that is a super, 796 00:43:10,360 --> 00:43:15,360 super expensive you know exercise and and slow take at 797 00:43:15,360 --> 00:43:17,880 least 6 to 12 months just to do that. 798 00:43:17,880 --> 00:43:20,840 And then global trade probably reverses and then Japan owes the 799 00:43:20,840 --> 00:43:22,840 money to France, so they've got to send it back. 800 00:43:23,120 --> 00:43:27,040 So that's where the centralized bodies ended up really popping 801 00:43:27,040 --> 00:43:28,360 up. And Bank of International 802 00:43:28,360 --> 00:43:32,080 Settlements is a really good example of why people don't 803 00:43:32,080 --> 00:43:36,520 shouldn't trust the centralized A centralized body with with 804 00:43:36,520 --> 00:43:38,680 that task. Because World War 2 is a good 805 00:43:38,680 --> 00:43:40,240 example. So Germany invades 806 00:43:40,240 --> 00:43:44,040 Czechoslovakia and the Bank of International Settlements used 807 00:43:44,040 --> 00:43:47,080 to settle most of the gold trade and Germany invades 808 00:43:47,080 --> 00:43:49,560 Czechoslovakia. Czechoslovakia's got their pile 809 00:43:49,560 --> 00:43:52,160 of gold in the Bank of International Settlements, and 810 00:43:52,160 --> 00:43:55,040 so does so does Germany, and so does all these other countries. 811 00:43:55,320 --> 00:43:57,400 Germany gets in contact with the Bank of International 812 00:43:57,400 --> 00:44:00,000 Settlements and says, hey yo, we've just invaded 813 00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:02,840 Czechoslovakia, that big pile of gold with their name on it, 814 00:44:03,000 --> 00:44:05,280 that's now ours. And the Bank of International 815 00:44:05,280 --> 00:44:09,560 Settlements turns around and says OK, so it's wow, I didn't 816 00:44:09,560 --> 00:44:10,800 know. That yeah, you can. 817 00:44:10,800 --> 00:44:13,400 Read about that in The Terror of Babel, I think is the is the 818 00:44:13,400 --> 00:44:16,000 book that explains that. And that's a book all about the 819 00:44:16,000 --> 00:44:17,320 Bank of International Settlements. 820 00:44:17,320 --> 00:44:20,560 So it's it's just a really good, you know, and obviously there's 821 00:44:20,560 --> 00:44:23,320 probably a lot more that went on the back end of that, but that's 822 00:44:23,320 --> 00:44:25,120 essentially what what ends up happening, right? 823 00:44:25,400 --> 00:44:29,080 And that's why we need a trustless system because nobody 824 00:44:29,080 --> 00:44:31,320 trusts anybody anymore, nor should they, nor should they 825 00:44:31,320 --> 00:44:34,600 have to. So this is so understanding why 826 00:44:34,600 --> 00:44:38,160 gold potentially failed is why we ended up on a on a Fiat 827 00:44:38,160 --> 00:44:42,280 currency because gold couldn't keep up with technology we 828 00:44:42,280 --> 00:44:43,880 needed. You know and as we started to 829 00:44:43,880 --> 00:44:46,280 digitize as well, this further exacerbated this. 830 00:44:46,280 --> 00:44:48,960 And and how we ended up on, on such a system that we're on now 831 00:44:48,960 --> 00:44:53,040 where we've got more dollars in circulation than actual physical 832 00:44:53,040 --> 00:44:55,920 currency notes. Because prior to digitization 833 00:44:55,920 --> 00:44:58,520 and the Internet you needed those physical notes, they 834 00:44:58,520 --> 00:45:01,040 needed to be printed you, you know, you had a degree of 835 00:45:01,040 --> 00:45:04,120 fractional reserve banking. But now that we're just digital, 836 00:45:04,120 --> 00:45:07,600 it's just a 0 on a computer screen, it's a lot more easier 837 00:45:07,600 --> 00:45:10,880 for you to introduce a credit system based on top of that. 838 00:45:10,880 --> 00:45:14,240 So a fractional reserve system in its historical sense used to 839 00:45:14,240 --> 00:45:20,000 say you should have X percentage of dollars backing the credit 840 00:45:20,000 --> 00:45:22,320 that you've got out in the system and will allow you to 841 00:45:22,320 --> 00:45:24,000 inflate this to a certain degree. 842 00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:27,720 But when we've moved towards digitization in the Internet and 843 00:45:27,720 --> 00:45:31,320 Internet banking, that requirement has trended towards 844 00:45:31,320 --> 00:45:33,560 0. So historically that used to be 845 00:45:33,560 --> 00:45:36,480 around 10%. You needed 10% of reserves in in 846 00:45:36,480 --> 00:45:38,040 your Kitty. That's the physical cash in 847 00:45:38,040 --> 00:45:40,320 order to go and lend. Now it's a bit zero depending on 848 00:45:40,320 --> 00:45:41,760 your, but even. Then it was. 849 00:45:42,200 --> 00:45:44,520 Even then it was forced trust, right? 850 00:45:44,520 --> 00:45:46,320 Like that is what people now also say. 851 00:45:46,560 --> 00:45:48,560 So back then it was even forced trust. 852 00:45:49,920 --> 00:45:54,360 After the gold bag money was gone, it was even more forced 853 00:45:54,360 --> 00:45:56,480 trust, right? And I think that is also kind of 854 00:45:56,480 --> 00:46:00,920 what you sometimes hear as arguments for the money. 855 00:46:00,920 --> 00:46:03,320 We have like people who are totally oblivious. 856 00:46:03,440 --> 00:46:06,880 But anyway, right, that they said, yeah, but it's a trust. 857 00:46:07,040 --> 00:46:09,480 No, you are forced to trust it, right? 858 00:46:09,480 --> 00:46:11,480 It's not. You never made a conscious 859 00:46:11,480 --> 00:46:15,040 decision to trust the money that your government says. 860 00:46:15,040 --> 00:46:17,400 You should use that. That's the entire point, right? 861 00:46:17,400 --> 00:46:20,680 That that's why I think this is. And then I I love the first part 862 00:46:20,680 --> 00:46:22,600 that we talked about. This is what people need to wrap 863 00:46:22,600 --> 00:46:25,560 their heads around. Like you are forced to trust 864 00:46:25,560 --> 00:46:27,800 someone who doesn't care about you, right? 865 00:46:27,920 --> 00:46:30,720 Whoever is in the seat in the government or the central bank, 866 00:46:30,720 --> 00:46:32,360 it doesn't really matter. Like if they can do it to 867 00:46:32,360 --> 00:46:35,560 Czechoslovakia, right? They can do it to you, they can 868 00:46:35,560 --> 00:46:36,920 do it to you. Like, that's the point. 869 00:46:36,920 --> 00:46:40,720 Like they gave their responsibility away to a Bank of 870 00:46:40,720 --> 00:46:43,440 international settlements that on paper said we have these 871 00:46:43,440 --> 00:46:46,360 agreements, blah blah, blah. You know all these people that 872 00:46:46,360 --> 00:46:49,960 were in charge, put in their autograph and still you know 873 00:46:50,360 --> 00:46:53,520 their gold got stolen. And I think that is the the 874 00:46:53,520 --> 00:46:55,880 entire concept that people need to wrap their head around. 875 00:46:55,880 --> 00:47:00,520 Like you are unwillingly giving away certain responsibility and 876 00:47:00,520 --> 00:47:04,120 therefore your life is influenced by people that don't 877 00:47:04,120 --> 00:47:06,560 know or care about you. Again, not in a malicious way, 878 00:47:06,560 --> 00:47:08,080 but just they don't know you like this. 879 00:47:08,080 --> 00:47:11,480 Not you're, you're not the individual that you are for 880 00:47:11,560 --> 00:47:15,120 yourself or your family, right? Like I think that is the point 881 00:47:15,120 --> 00:47:19,080 that you need to figure out. And and so you you don't own 882 00:47:19,200 --> 00:47:21,520 what you think you own. You don't own the numbers that 883 00:47:21,520 --> 00:47:23,120 you see in your banking app. Right. 884 00:47:23,120 --> 00:47:27,040 Like your grandmother had real, real, you know, bills probably 885 00:47:27,040 --> 00:47:28,000 under her bed. Right. 886 00:47:28,480 --> 00:47:31,600 Like the numbers you see in your banking app, they aren't even 887 00:47:31,600 --> 00:47:34,760 there. You know and and and and when we 888 00:47:34,840 --> 00:47:38,160 had to create the ink and the pay the ink and the paper, you 889 00:47:38,160 --> 00:47:40,640 know, right. We talked about energy before. 890 00:47:40,640 --> 00:47:43,920 Energy cannot be created. It's it's transformed, right. 891 00:47:44,480 --> 00:47:47,520 And so the energy you expend again, you know, for your job 892 00:47:47,520 --> 00:47:50,920 adventure is in your body, but you are being rewarded with 893 00:47:50,920 --> 00:47:55,440 something that just appeared without expending any energy. 894 00:47:55,720 --> 00:48:00,720 And that is the the dumbest exchange we could all ever take 895 00:48:00,720 --> 00:48:03,640 part of, right? And so I, I, I love that we 896 00:48:03,640 --> 00:48:06,880 could talk about the technical part, but I also love to like 897 00:48:06,880 --> 00:48:09,720 zoom out a bit and make it a bit more conceptually for people to 898 00:48:09,960 --> 00:48:13,200 be like okay, is this the mechanic that, you know, is this 899 00:48:13,200 --> 00:48:15,280 the thing that I'm actually participating in, right? 900 00:48:15,280 --> 00:48:18,840 Because for me it clicked like that basically. 901 00:48:19,760 --> 00:48:22,040 Yeah. And I think like Lynn Alden 902 00:48:22,040 --> 00:48:24,160 talks about this in a book, Broken Money. 903 00:48:24,560 --> 00:48:28,520 This notion of like money is essentially just a Ledger and 904 00:48:28,520 --> 00:48:30,040 it's just taking different forms. 905 00:48:30,400 --> 00:48:33,760 So we've used various tokens to represent this Ledger. 906 00:48:33,760 --> 00:48:36,280 So this, this checks and balances between that energy 907 00:48:36,280 --> 00:48:38,520 that I expended and and what I'm then owed. 908 00:48:38,520 --> 00:48:42,840 Right, so we can go right back to to to villages like we were 909 00:48:42,840 --> 00:48:45,280 all hunters. I went out and I made the kill. 910 00:48:45,560 --> 00:48:48,840 You know, I brought back the mammoth and we all gorged and 911 00:48:48,840 --> 00:48:52,000 we'd chalk up on the on The Cave like, yeah, Daz was a good lad. 912 00:48:52,000 --> 00:48:54,560 He went and got one kill. Yeah, well, we left. 913 00:48:54,560 --> 00:48:58,720 We left bra meat for for free promos us are killed, right. 914 00:48:58,720 --> 00:49:01,640 And so this is this, this notion around this this credit system 915 00:49:01,640 --> 00:49:03,920 and checks and balances between the debits and the credits, 916 00:49:03,920 --> 00:49:05,880 right, that's it's in it's fundamental form. 917 00:49:06,080 --> 00:49:08,920 That's a really easy way to to sort of understand that concept. 918 00:49:08,920 --> 00:49:12,600 And then as we sort of evolved and we started to progress, it 919 00:49:12,600 --> 00:49:17,000 was then like we we naturally came to barter in like trying to 920 00:49:17,000 --> 00:49:20,080 swap those goods and services. And then we evolved into 921 00:49:20,680 --> 00:49:23,920 representing, having some sort of token representing that 922 00:49:23,920 --> 00:49:25,840 trade. Because I, you know, if I had 923 00:49:25,840 --> 00:49:29,440 chickens and you had eggs or maybe that's a bad example 924 00:49:29,440 --> 00:49:30,960 because potatoes has the eggs as well, right. 925 00:49:30,960 --> 00:49:33,160 Yeah, you got the potatoes. So I come to you with the 926 00:49:33,160 --> 00:49:35,160 chickens and you're like, I don't want chickens this week, I 927 00:49:35,160 --> 00:49:37,560 want beef, right. So, you know, we needed 928 00:49:37,560 --> 00:49:41,320 something that represented that trade that we could then start 929 00:49:41,320 --> 00:49:44,200 that was that was socially. Coincidence of once. 930 00:49:44,400 --> 00:49:48,760 Coincidence of once 100%. So you know, but essentially 931 00:49:48,760 --> 00:49:51,280 that's still like a Ledger. We're still just parking value 932 00:49:51,280 --> 00:49:56,840 in something that everybody recognizes for, for for being 933 00:49:57,000 --> 00:50:00,240 this, this, you know, balance between checks and debits. 934 00:50:00,240 --> 00:50:04,000 And and if we Fast forward for today, the Ledger still exists. 935 00:50:04,000 --> 00:50:07,240 The Ledger is just like your bank has its own Ledger and it's 936 00:50:07,240 --> 00:50:10,280 saying you know Daz has X amount of units. 937 00:50:10,280 --> 00:50:13,480 But we've got to put an inherent amount of trust in that Ledger 938 00:50:14,120 --> 00:50:18,400 to say that that is true. And then that bank has its own 939 00:50:18,400 --> 00:50:21,440 Ledger and then the next bank that it's working with has its 940 00:50:21,480 --> 00:50:24,000 own Ledger. And we're just relying on this 941 00:50:24,000 --> 00:50:28,320 system of trust between these two that the system keeps keeps 942 00:50:28,320 --> 00:50:31,920 going along. So when we look at why like gold 943 00:50:31,920 --> 00:50:34,720 was necessarily a a good form of money, it's because it was 944 00:50:34,720 --> 00:50:37,600 directly tied to energy. We knew it took energy. 945 00:50:37,600 --> 00:50:39,480 It was finite. We couldn't make more of it. 946 00:50:39,480 --> 00:50:42,120 Alchemists have been trying for centuries to create a formula to 947 00:50:42,120 --> 00:50:44,640 create gold out of thin air. They had still haven't found it, 948 00:50:45,240 --> 00:50:47,520 and it takes an inherent amount of energy to dig it out of the 949 00:50:47,520 --> 00:50:49,040 ground, and we know that it's finite. 950 00:50:49,040 --> 00:50:50,760 So this. Is where it's also from the 951 00:50:50,800 --> 00:50:52,480 Earth, right? Absolutely. 952 00:50:52,480 --> 00:50:53,000 Yeah. Yeah. 953 00:50:53,000 --> 00:50:54,600 We can even go back to, you know. 954 00:50:54,600 --> 00:50:57,920 It's actually stored energy, just like oil is Stored energy, 955 00:50:57,920 --> 00:51:01,760 right? Like into oil is. 100% and so 956 00:51:01,760 --> 00:51:05,880 when we look at what made gold good, a good money is because of 957 00:51:05,880 --> 00:51:08,360 that form of scarcity. But then we look at the 958 00:51:08,360 --> 00:51:12,800 digitisation of the world and the need for things to move at 959 00:51:12,800 --> 00:51:16,400 the speed of light. So it was only sort of natural 960 00:51:16,400 --> 00:51:19,960 that we came up with a form of money that mimics all of the 961 00:51:19,960 --> 00:51:24,040 great properties that made gold great, directly tied to energy. 962 00:51:24,040 --> 00:51:27,040 And I guess that's a probably good we could start talking 963 00:51:27,040 --> 00:51:28,680 about that and what that exactly means. 964 00:51:29,000 --> 00:51:32,120 But we also have all of the benefits of what gold made gold 965 00:51:32,120 --> 00:51:35,240 are, good money, as well as all of the benefits that, you know, 966 00:51:35,440 --> 00:51:38,200 digitization and the Internet have provided society. 967 00:51:38,360 --> 00:51:42,640 And we've mashed them together to create what is essentially 968 00:51:42,640 --> 00:51:46,560 the most pristine form of money with all of the features of all 969 00:51:46,560 --> 00:51:48,760 of the great monies in the world, as well as keeping up 970 00:51:48,760 --> 00:51:51,440 with today's technology that that we've ever had. 971 00:51:51,680 --> 00:51:55,680 And essentially all it is, is a Ledger, much like the banking 972 00:51:55,680 --> 00:51:58,160 systems a Ledger. But the difference is it's 973 00:51:58,160 --> 00:52:00,360 immutable. Everybody's got a copy of it. 974 00:52:00,360 --> 00:52:03,800 Everybody can verify the the balances, everybody can check 975 00:52:04,200 --> 00:52:06,760 that there's only X amount in circulation in that they're 976 00:52:06,760 --> 00:52:08,920 distributed amongst all of these addresses. 977 00:52:08,920 --> 00:52:11,040 And if you're lucky enough to have one of those addresses 978 00:52:11,360 --> 00:52:14,640 everybody can check like and that's that's really the the the 979 00:52:14,960 --> 00:52:18,720 mind blowing difference is money has always been a Ledger and and 980 00:52:18,720 --> 00:52:24,520 it's just been over time Co opted and obscured and built a a 981 00:52:24,520 --> 00:52:27,640 large amount of trust and we've just taken that system and we've 982 00:52:27,640 --> 00:52:30,600 just made it better and we've made it completely immutable 983 00:52:30,600 --> 00:52:32,800 verifiable and everybody can participate. 984 00:52:34,240 --> 00:52:37,640 I got an idea to write about. Now it's actually we condensed 985 00:52:37,680 --> 00:52:41,640 all these opaque layers into just one thing that is 986 00:52:41,640 --> 00:52:46,560 ultimately transparent, right? Like like the Internet condensed 987 00:52:46,720 --> 00:52:51,240 all the information in the world into like 1 accessible network 988 00:52:51,240 --> 00:52:54,800 of information. Before we continue, I, I, I, I, 989 00:52:54,800 --> 00:53:02,040 I love this, this angle again I think I think two things right. 990 00:53:02,040 --> 00:53:10,600 When we had gold or bills money how do you say like notes that 991 00:53:10,640 --> 00:53:14,160 represented gold. That was a one-on-one 992 00:53:14,160 --> 00:53:16,520 relationship, right? There was actually a certificate 993 00:53:17,120 --> 00:53:20,280 here in Amsterdam. It was the first actually actual 994 00:53:20,280 --> 00:53:21,480 central bank in the world, right. 995 00:53:21,480 --> 00:53:23,960 People brought their gold, they got, they got tickets, 996 00:53:23,960 --> 00:53:26,200 certificates, that's what they could trade with. 997 00:53:26,240 --> 00:53:28,640 But then eventually if you went back to the central bank you 998 00:53:28,640 --> 00:53:30,680 would actually get the gold right? 999 00:53:30,680 --> 00:53:36,000 It was a one-on-one basically note to to get the real, the 1000 00:53:36,000 --> 00:53:40,600 real thing. But because we started obscuring 1001 00:53:40,600 --> 00:53:43,880 that or well, making it more abstract, I think it's abstract 1002 00:53:43,880 --> 00:53:46,560 because we made it more abstract, more layers, etcetera. 1003 00:53:46,840 --> 00:53:52,400 That's when it became obscure. That's also when I love to say 1004 00:53:52,400 --> 00:53:55,520 this a lot, but that that's when the corruptibility opportunity 1005 00:53:55,520 --> 00:53:58,880 came about, right. Because if you are in, you know, 1006 00:53:58,880 --> 00:54:02,720 6 layers above us two, right, You're closer to the creation of 1007 00:54:02,720 --> 00:54:07,120 the money and you have the opportunity to make use of that, 1008 00:54:07,240 --> 00:54:10,120 whether as a country or big corporation or whatever, you 1009 00:54:10,120 --> 00:54:13,600 know, a bank, then yeah, you take advantage of the 1010 00:54:13,600 --> 00:54:15,800 opportunity. It's still survival of the of 1011 00:54:15,800 --> 00:54:18,360 the fittest, right. Because, yeah, in a sense, we 1012 00:54:18,360 --> 00:54:22,360 are all corruptible, right? Everyone would say, well, no, I 1013 00:54:22,360 --> 00:54:23,960 wouldn't do that if I was in that position. 1014 00:54:23,960 --> 00:54:26,920 But I I think we would all do that to be honest. 1015 00:54:28,080 --> 00:54:30,000 But the point is I'll get to Bitcoin. 1016 00:54:30,000 --> 00:54:32,960 But the the one other thing you mentioned about trans 1017 00:54:32,960 --> 00:54:36,120 transferring the gold, that final settlement part also got 1018 00:54:36,120 --> 00:54:40,720 way more opaque and and abstracted, right. 1019 00:54:40,720 --> 00:54:45,000 Like it's not that when I went back to the central bank in in 1020 00:54:45,000 --> 00:54:49,720 Amsterdam that was not really final settlement but I could get 1021 00:54:49,720 --> 00:54:52,840 the thing right. And if I gave you my gold coin 1022 00:54:52,840 --> 00:54:55,880 that was final settlement. That was the base layer of of 1023 00:54:55,880 --> 00:54:58,600 the representation of value. I gave you the gold coin, I 1024 00:54:58,600 --> 00:55:00,280 didn't have it anymore, you had it. 1025 00:55:00,280 --> 00:55:02,120 That is what is called final settlement, right? 1026 00:55:02,120 --> 00:55:06,240 And if we transact today with credit cards or or bank 1027 00:55:06,240 --> 00:55:09,320 transfers or whatever, that's like layer 6 on final 1028 00:55:09,320 --> 00:55:11,240 settlement, right? And final settlement is only 1029 00:55:11,240 --> 00:55:14,040 once a month between banks and then you have between countries 1030 00:55:14,040 --> 00:55:17,880 is once a quarter or whatever like this is all abstracted. 1031 00:55:17,880 --> 00:55:22,320 But what Bitcoin brings is not only the ultimate transparency 1032 00:55:22,320 --> 00:55:26,800 of the Ledger, as you mentioned, you know, the immutable, you 1033 00:55:27,520 --> 00:55:31,640 know, fiscal policy, the the policy monetary policy of the of 1034 00:55:31,640 --> 00:55:34,320 the networks or the issuance, the eventual supply and all 1035 00:55:34,320 --> 00:55:36,520 these things. But it's also that final 1036 00:55:36,520 --> 00:55:38,760 settlement. If I send a Bitcoin to you, you 1037 00:55:38,760 --> 00:55:42,400 have it. I don't and you don't have to 1038 00:55:42,400 --> 00:55:44,920 believe me that you have it. You can actually verify it, 1039 00:55:45,240 --> 00:55:48,240 right? And every 10 minutes, 75,000 1040 00:55:48,240 --> 00:55:50,280 notes or whatever the amount is, right? 1041 00:55:50,280 --> 00:55:51,920 They will all say this is still true. 1042 00:55:52,440 --> 00:55:56,480 And yeah, I think to end this segment, I love to say that the 1043 00:55:56,480 --> 00:55:59,680 Federal Reserve in America has never been audited, right. 1044 00:55:59,920 --> 00:56:02,200 Not even, let alone every 10 minutes, right. 1045 00:56:02,200 --> 00:56:05,800 So we have no clue what happens there, but we are still forced 1046 00:56:05,800 --> 00:56:09,040 to trust that money. And you know, Federal Reserve in 1047 00:56:09,040 --> 00:56:13,080 America is a good example, but this is the same in any, in any 1048 00:56:13,080 --> 00:56:15,600 country, wherever you are, you have a central bank that issues 1049 00:56:15,600 --> 00:56:19,600 a currency and you know, check out Google if they have been 1050 00:56:19,600 --> 00:56:21,160 audited, right? Yeah, yeah. 1051 00:56:21,920 --> 00:56:26,480 Yeah, but yeah, so and and this is also I think why it's hard to 1052 00:56:26,480 --> 00:56:29,520 understand Bitcoin. It's a lot together, right. 1053 00:56:29,520 --> 00:56:34,600 It's all these dimensions. It's the concepts of of energy 1054 00:56:34,600 --> 00:56:38,480 as in you know, individual energy expenditure which is 1055 00:56:38,480 --> 00:56:44,280 captured, all these things like what are the most common counter 1056 00:56:44,280 --> 00:56:47,920 arguments counter like of our like arguments against Bitcoin 1057 00:56:47,920 --> 00:56:52,800 that you face that that like how do you respond to them like what 1058 00:56:52,800 --> 00:56:54,360 what's the most common thing you hear? 1059 00:56:54,840 --> 00:56:58,400 I I guess like to keep on the same similar theme it's it's 1060 00:56:58,400 --> 00:57:02,880 this notion then around well Bitcoin was created at a thin it 1061 00:57:03,080 --> 00:57:06,240 like it, it just, you know some guy was coding and then he's 1062 00:57:06,240 --> 00:57:08,640 like hey I've created this thing called Bitcoin and next minute 1063 00:57:08,640 --> 00:57:12,720 we're meant to believe that this digital representation of of of 1064 00:57:12,720 --> 00:57:15,600 this thing is this ultimately scarce asset. 1065 00:57:15,600 --> 00:57:20,440 So I think that's really, you know the the the main push back 1066 00:57:20,440 --> 00:57:25,480 is this is this notion for people to really understand what 1067 00:57:25,480 --> 00:57:28,800 makes Bitcoin different than any other digitisation. 1068 00:57:28,800 --> 00:57:32,320 And I think like largely it was by first mover advantage for for 1069 00:57:32,320 --> 00:57:33,680 a start. There's a few things that play 1070 00:57:33,680 --> 00:57:36,840 into it like network effects and and and all of these types of 1071 00:57:36,840 --> 00:57:40,120 things. But ultimately you know it, it 1072 00:57:40,120 --> 00:57:43,720 does benefit from this notion of first mover advantage in in 1073 00:57:43,720 --> 00:57:47,320 terms of having the most traction, having the most energy 1074 00:57:47,320 --> 00:57:49,320 that's thrown. And that's all provable as well 1075 00:57:49,840 --> 00:57:54,200 in around how much energy what people are making economic 1076 00:57:54,200 --> 00:57:58,240 choices to point energy use and excess energy and wasted energy 1077 00:57:58,240 --> 00:58:02,360 towards creating this thing. And we can prove that and it's 1078 00:58:02,360 --> 00:58:06,320 really only the the decentralized nature of Bitcoin 1079 00:58:06,320 --> 00:58:09,480 by having that first mover advantage like it is the only 1080 00:58:09,480 --> 00:58:12,560 provably decentralized monetary good that we have. 1081 00:58:13,440 --> 00:58:15,720 You know and and this is where the arguments come in around oh 1082 00:58:15,720 --> 00:58:17,680 what about all these other shiny crypto things. 1083 00:58:17,680 --> 00:58:21,320 You know that I I keep saying why is it Bitcoin And ultimately 1084 00:58:21,320 --> 00:58:23,160 all of those. When you peer under the hood you 1085 00:58:23,160 --> 00:58:25,560 will find that they've gone through some form of 1086 00:58:25,560 --> 00:58:30,240 centralization, some form of pre mine, some form of centralised 1087 00:58:30,240 --> 00:58:33,800 body that's dictating the rules they're doing other things 1088 00:58:33,800 --> 00:58:37,360 they're not money and and many people have can speak to this 1089 00:58:37,360 --> 00:58:40,760 more eloquently than I can but what what a blockchain is really 1090 00:58:40,760 --> 00:58:43,320 good for is money. It's in a very inefficient 1091 00:58:43,320 --> 00:58:45,160 database. So it does one thing and it does 1092 00:58:45,160 --> 00:58:48,480 one thing well and that's money. Anything else like claiming to 1093 00:58:48,480 --> 00:58:53,800 use Bitcoin blockchain for, for these purposes yet to be proven 1094 00:58:53,880 --> 00:58:56,520 anything useful, like most of it's a distraction. 1095 00:58:56,520 --> 00:58:58,440 So I would say just stay in the database. 1096 00:58:59,080 --> 00:59:01,600 Exactly. Yeah, exactly. 1097 00:59:01,600 --> 00:59:06,160 So you know and and I think this is where the energy piece for me 1098 00:59:06,160 --> 00:59:09,680 like being an electrician and engineer really started to also 1099 00:59:09,680 --> 00:59:12,800 cement the that this is the this is the big daddy. 1100 00:59:12,800 --> 00:59:15,360 This is where I need to be directing all my time and energy 1101 00:59:15,360 --> 00:59:19,560 because that's where economic actors are pointing there 1102 00:59:19,800 --> 00:59:23,160 activity towards as well. And and it's really around then 1103 00:59:24,040 --> 00:59:27,200 what Bitcoin means for humanity in terms of energy. 1104 00:59:27,560 --> 00:59:32,160 Because energy, we know energy is directly correlated to human 1105 00:59:32,160 --> 00:59:35,120 flourishing. So your ability as a human to 1106 00:59:35,120 --> 00:59:37,680 access energy provides you a better life. 1107 00:59:37,680 --> 00:59:40,600 It keeps you, you know, keeps you warm through the winter, 1108 00:59:40,600 --> 00:59:42,160 keeps you cool through the summer. 1109 00:59:42,600 --> 00:59:46,240 And you can experience a lot more human flourishing if you 1110 00:59:46,240 --> 00:59:51,680 can harness and obtain energy. And that's really where looking 1111 00:59:51,680 --> 00:59:54,640 at Bitcoin, what we've never been able to directly tie 1112 00:59:54,640 --> 00:59:59,400 monetary good to energy before. And I think it's Henry Ford and 1113 00:59:59,400 --> 01:00:03,080 Tesla and all these brilliant minds throughout history have 1114 01:00:03,120 --> 01:00:08,720 often prophesized the fact that at some point our, our monetary 1115 01:00:08,720 --> 01:00:11,840 units in which we communicate value to each other, will be 1116 01:00:11,840 --> 01:00:14,440 energy. It'll be and and Bitcoin is the 1117 01:00:14,440 --> 01:00:17,480 best representation of that relationship that I've ever 1118 01:00:17,480 --> 01:00:19,280 seen. And that's really really a 1119 01:00:19,280 --> 01:00:23,520 fascinating thing to to think about and the the, you know 1120 01:00:23,520 --> 01:00:28,000 where Bitcoin can can tie into energy grids. 1121 01:00:28,320 --> 01:00:32,120 Energy production generation is really going to be a game 1122 01:00:32,120 --> 01:00:35,200 changer for the globe especially like and you can argue whether 1123 01:00:35,200 --> 01:00:39,200 you agree with this notion behind going 100% renewable. 1124 01:00:39,360 --> 01:00:42,400 Right before we I get the argument I get the that this 1125 01:00:42,440 --> 01:00:45,680 idea around us having final resources probably the most 1126 01:00:45,680 --> 01:00:49,160 important thing to realize about bitcoins energy use and it does 1127 01:00:49,160 --> 01:00:51,520 use a lot of energy. Nobody's arguing that it does 1128 01:00:51,520 --> 01:00:54,160 not. That's what is probably the most 1129 01:00:54,160 --> 01:00:58,280 important thing to realize is that at its at its fundamental 1130 01:00:58,280 --> 01:01:01,720 level I, you know in Australia, here we've got quite high energy 1131 01:01:01,720 --> 01:01:04,360 prices. I can't plug a Bitcoin miner 1132 01:01:04,720 --> 01:01:07,720 into my wall socket at home. It's deemed it's not an 1133 01:01:07,720 --> 01:01:10,960 economically viable decision for me, cost me more in the energy 1134 01:01:10,960 --> 01:01:13,520 use then I would be mining the Bitcoin. 1135 01:01:13,840 --> 01:01:17,160 So really why that's important to understand is that by its 1136 01:01:17,160 --> 01:01:21,720 nature Bitcoin is incentivized to seek out the cheapest cost of 1137 01:01:21,720 --> 01:01:24,440 energy. Now if there's that those 1138 01:01:24,440 --> 01:01:29,400 cheapest cost of energy always end up being wasted, otherwise 1139 01:01:29,400 --> 01:01:33,880 unused excess capacity or renewables, those those four 1140 01:01:33,880 --> 01:01:37,720 things generally make up the energy mix that that Bitcoin is 1141 01:01:37,720 --> 01:01:39,840 using. So where that's really important 1142 01:01:39,840 --> 01:01:44,560 for you as an energy user and as an as an energy consumer is it 1143 01:01:44,560 --> 01:01:48,800 can help capitalize and monetize energy grids so that your bills 1144 01:01:48,800 --> 01:01:50,880 are cheaper. And this is where I think the 1145 01:01:50,880 --> 01:01:54,760 education really, really needs to come to the fore in terms of 1146 01:01:56,320 --> 01:01:57,760 why. Does it get cheaper? 1147 01:01:57,760 --> 01:02:01,640 Sorry to interrupt, but it gets cheaper because it will make 1148 01:02:01,640 --> 01:02:05,480 sure that all the energy that is created within the power grids 1149 01:02:05,480 --> 01:02:09,680 will also actually be used and not wasted, right? 1150 01:02:09,680 --> 01:02:15,320 And therefore the power company earns more money, right? 1151 01:02:15,360 --> 01:02:20,760 So they don't have to charge you for the electricity that you as 1152 01:02:20,840 --> 01:02:23,200 an individual use for your home, right? 1153 01:02:23,200 --> 01:02:26,360 Because basically you're paying double or triple, you know, 1154 01:02:26,360 --> 01:02:28,920 whatever the real cost of the energy is because they're also 1155 01:02:28,920 --> 01:02:32,000 wasting a lot of errors. Yeah, that's, that's 100%. 1156 01:02:32,000 --> 01:02:35,040 And I can explain why that is a little bit and I think there's 1157 01:02:35,040 --> 01:02:37,080 probably a thing I'd like to clarify in there. 1158 01:02:37,720 --> 01:02:40,600 Just to make it clear, in case anybody's like you can never use 1159 01:02:40,600 --> 01:02:42,800 100% of your grid, because that's absolutely true. 1160 01:02:42,800 --> 01:02:47,160 But what we can use is introduce Bitcoin into the profitable 1161 01:02:47,160 --> 01:02:50,640 region between. There's always going to be a 1162 01:02:50,640 --> 01:02:53,640 profitable region of operability above your maximum demand. 1163 01:02:53,640 --> 01:02:56,920 So I can talk about all of that. So maximum demand is basically 1164 01:02:57,360 --> 01:03:00,680 the the maximum demand on the grid that everybody wants to 1165 01:03:00,680 --> 01:03:04,360 consume power and we experience that typically you get a peek 1166 01:03:04,360 --> 01:03:07,520 through the day period, but you'll also have seasonal peaks 1167 01:03:07,520 --> 01:03:08,920 as well depending on where you are. 1168 01:03:08,920 --> 01:03:11,120 So I can imagine in the Netherlands it gets quite cold, 1169 01:03:11,440 --> 01:03:13,880 your maximum demands probably going to be around winter. 1170 01:03:14,120 --> 01:03:17,000 For us in Australia, it's typically summer because we get, 1171 01:03:17,120 --> 01:03:19,720 you know, really, really hot summers, so everybody's air 1172 01:03:19,720 --> 01:03:24,000 conditioning loads. So a lot of power usage is 1173 01:03:24,120 --> 01:03:27,240 either direct most of the time directed towards heating or 1174 01:03:27,240 --> 01:03:28,920 cooling. They're really where your your 1175 01:03:28,920 --> 01:03:30,800 peaks are. And what's important to 1176 01:03:30,800 --> 01:03:33,800 understand about an energy grid is to make sure that you've got 1177 01:03:33,800 --> 01:03:36,640 the energy available. We have to be generating energy 1178 01:03:36,640 --> 01:03:38,440 in real time. There has to be capacity. 1179 01:03:38,440 --> 01:03:41,320 There has to be spinning motors. Yeah, solar capacity, wind 1180 01:03:41,320 --> 01:03:44,880 capacity available to be tapped into at the moment that we need 1181 01:03:44,880 --> 01:03:46,640 it. So what we do is we do 1182 01:03:46,840 --> 01:03:50,760 forecasting on historical data in and around how much energy 1183 01:03:50,760 --> 01:03:53,600 did we use last year, what are the trends in industry like. 1184 01:03:53,600 --> 01:03:56,840 We've got EVs coming on, we've got air conditioners going on. 1185 01:03:56,840 --> 01:03:59,600 We expect that this energy use is going to continue to 1186 01:03:59,600 --> 01:04:03,400 increase. So what we have to do as a grid 1187 01:04:03,640 --> 01:04:07,320 is we have to have enough energy to cater for the worst of days 1188 01:04:07,560 --> 01:04:11,160 that has to be available. Otherwise we have reliability 1189 01:04:11,160 --> 01:04:13,040 issues, we've got rolling blackouts, we've got load 1190 01:04:13,040 --> 01:04:15,680 shedding schemes that we, you know, you only have to look at 1191 01:04:15,920 --> 01:04:19,040 countries like South Africa who you know you can't rely on 1192 01:04:19,320 --> 01:04:22,760 energy power 24/7 there, you just simply can't because they 1193 01:04:22,760 --> 01:04:24,440 don't have enough generation capacity. 1194 01:04:24,440 --> 01:04:29,320 So the developed world very much manages that a lot better than 1195 01:04:29,320 --> 01:04:31,520 say the developing world in that in that regard. 1196 01:04:31,520 --> 01:04:34,360 But what's important to note is that if we are going to build 1197 01:04:34,360 --> 01:04:37,760 out a grid that's going to cater for this worst of case scenario, 1198 01:04:37,800 --> 01:04:41,200 the worst case, you know, it might only be one day in the 1199 01:04:41,200 --> 01:04:44,600 whole year that we've got to cater for with this maximum 1200 01:04:44,600 --> 01:04:47,400 demand. If your maximum demand's here 1201 01:04:47,560 --> 01:04:51,120 like at a peak and then your normal demand is down here, what 1202 01:04:51,120 --> 01:04:53,800 demand represents is your maximum billable amount that you 1203 01:04:53,800 --> 01:04:57,280 can charge people, right. It's your maximum revenue that 1204 01:04:57,280 --> 01:05:00,560 you're going to ever going to be able to obtain from your 1205 01:05:00,560 --> 01:05:06,200 consumers to pay for keeping the lights on to keep the all of 1206 01:05:06,200 --> 01:05:08,760 this capacity going. So what Bitcoin mining 1207 01:05:08,760 --> 01:05:12,000 represents is a fully controllable and flexible load 1208 01:05:12,000 --> 01:05:14,600 that we can introduce to introduce another revenue 1209 01:05:14,600 --> 01:05:18,680 customer into that grid. So that when we are not at peak 1210 01:05:18,680 --> 01:05:22,640 demand, but we're at like a normal demand level, what we can 1211 01:05:22,640 --> 01:05:26,200 do is introduce a new revenue model, a new consumer to be able 1212 01:05:26,200 --> 01:05:30,000 to help monetize the excess capital costs that we had to put 1213 01:05:30,000 --> 01:05:33,440 in to build that grid out to cater for the worst of days if 1214 01:05:33,440 --> 01:05:35,760 we don't have. That's the most important point 1215 01:05:35,760 --> 01:05:38,600 by the way. I think because you make an 1216 01:05:38,600 --> 01:05:43,240 investment for the energy sources that you use to create 1217 01:05:43,320 --> 01:05:46,120 the electricity, right? So you know what, whatever you 1218 01:05:46,120 --> 01:05:50,880 do, hydro, sun, wind, whatever, right? 1219 01:05:50,880 --> 01:05:53,880 And just from a business standpoint, you want the highest 1220 01:05:53,880 --> 01:05:57,320 ROI from your investment. How do you get the highest ROI? 1221 01:05:57,320 --> 01:06:02,480 Is that you have these sources running whenever they can run 1222 01:06:02,800 --> 01:06:06,120 basically, right? Not not only to be prepared for 1223 01:06:06,120 --> 01:06:09,800 the highest loads or how did you set it, like the maximum day, 1224 01:06:10,040 --> 01:06:14,120 yeah, but also just to get the highest return out of your 1225 01:06:15,200 --> 01:06:18,280 investment and. They will. 1226 01:06:18,320 --> 01:06:21,360 Probably run right? Still run, but they just waste 1227 01:06:21,360 --> 01:06:26,120 the energy and then they just charge the the the users of the 1228 01:06:26,240 --> 01:06:29,080 energy that is actually used, just double or triple. 1229 01:06:29,240 --> 01:06:31,000 That's how to get to. Return. 1230 01:06:31,000 --> 01:06:32,440 Exactly. And and the more that we 1231 01:06:32,440 --> 01:06:37,360 investigate renewables the the the harder that is to balance 1232 01:06:37,720 --> 01:06:40,960 because a lot of you know and that's slowly getting fixed with 1233 01:06:40,960 --> 01:06:42,720 technology. We don't necessarily have to dig 1234 01:06:42,720 --> 01:06:44,840 down into into what that means, but solar's a really good 1235 01:06:44,840 --> 01:06:48,840 example of us losing a bit of the ability to control the 1236 01:06:48,840 --> 01:06:52,080 generation. And So what we have in Australia 1237 01:06:52,080 --> 01:06:54,440 is what we call a duck curve effect on the energy grid. 1238 01:06:54,440 --> 01:06:57,680 So through the day, what we're starting to notice is we're not 1239 01:06:57,680 --> 01:07:00,280 at home using all our power through the day. 1240 01:07:00,280 --> 01:07:03,280 We're at commercial, you know, buildings, we're in the 1241 01:07:03,280 --> 01:07:06,040 workplace. So our maximum demand, our load 1242 01:07:06,040 --> 01:07:08,440 profile is actually quite low in Australia through the day. 1243 01:07:08,440 --> 01:07:10,880 But what's starting to happen is that we've got too much. 1244 01:07:10,880 --> 01:07:13,320 We've gone very aggressive on rooftop solar here. 1245 01:07:13,320 --> 01:07:16,320 So just about every person in Australia's got solar on their 1246 01:07:16,320 --> 01:07:19,160 roof to help offset their own energy costs. 1247 01:07:19,160 --> 01:07:22,320 Well that was the idea right is to is to spend a bit of money 1248 01:07:22,320 --> 01:07:24,360 put some solar on there and help offset your costs. 1249 01:07:24,360 --> 01:07:27,680 But what that's resulted in is downstream making your the 1250 01:07:27,680 --> 01:07:29,840 energy that you do pay for even more expensive. 1251 01:07:29,840 --> 01:07:32,000 But that's another rabbit hole for another day probably. 1252 01:07:32,280 --> 01:07:35,800 But the really the the dangerous precedent that we've set now 1253 01:07:35,800 --> 01:07:39,480 with this idea is that we can't control this solar in in its 1254 01:07:39,480 --> 01:07:42,280 current form. So we've got too much generation 1255 01:07:42,280 --> 01:07:45,600 happening through the day that we don't have enough load to 1256 01:07:45,600 --> 01:07:47,560 soak up. And what that does is it puts 1257 01:07:47,600 --> 01:07:50,320 pressure on what we, what we refer to as the heartbeat of our 1258 01:07:50,320 --> 01:07:53,720 network. So these rotating machines is 1259 01:07:53,720 --> 01:07:56,960 what sets the heartbeat of the of of of our network. 1260 01:07:56,960 --> 01:08:00,800 So in Australia, in the in the EU it's around 50 Hertz, in the 1261 01:08:00,840 --> 01:08:03,880 US it's 60 Hertz. That's the representation. 5050 1262 01:08:03,880 --> 01:08:07,160 times the cycle and 50 Hertz is the heartbeat of your energy 1263 01:08:07,160 --> 01:08:10,000 grid when you've got uncontrollable load. 1264 01:08:10,120 --> 01:08:12,240 I'm sorry, uncontrollable generation. 1265 01:08:12,600 --> 01:08:15,760 That actually puts stress on your rotating machines. 1266 01:08:15,760 --> 01:08:18,760 Your rotating machines actually need this. 1267 01:08:19,000 --> 01:08:21,640 They need load. They need a certain amount of 1268 01:08:21,640 --> 01:08:24,640 load to be able to maintain that heartbeat. 1269 01:08:24,640 --> 01:08:26,240 When you've got too much generation. 1270 01:08:26,240 --> 01:08:28,960 Putting pressure on that, it actually speeds your heart rate 1271 01:08:28,960 --> 01:08:30,439 up. And just like you, it's not good 1272 01:08:30,439 --> 01:08:32,520 if your heartbeat goes too high or too low. 1273 01:08:33,120 --> 01:08:36,120 That is critical for an energy grid and we've only got a very 1274 01:08:36,120 --> 01:08:41,279 finite band in order to be able to maintain a nice healthy 1275 01:08:41,279 --> 01:08:43,560 balance. So if it's 50 Hertz, we've got 1276 01:08:43,560 --> 01:08:47,760 about 52 to 48 Hertz is the band that we can operate in safely 1277 01:08:47,760 --> 01:08:49,560 before equipment starts blowing up. 1278 01:08:49,560 --> 01:08:52,640 And we we experience some really quite negative effects on the 1279 01:08:52,640 --> 01:08:54,520 grid. So when we've got uncontrollable 1280 01:08:54,520 --> 01:08:57,880 solar that's actually making that heartbeat speed up and 1281 01:08:57,880 --> 01:09:00,800 that's a really, really dangerous precedent to set and a 1282 01:09:00,800 --> 01:09:05,520 really dangerous well, we can, we can look forward into these 1283 01:09:05,560 --> 01:09:09,000 policies around increasing renewables and we can start to 1284 01:09:09,000 --> 01:09:11,800 understand the constraints that we're going to have, the more 1285 01:09:11,800 --> 01:09:14,080 that we explore that. And here's another example why 1286 01:09:14,080 --> 01:09:16,680 Bitcoin mining is the perfect solution. 1287 01:09:16,680 --> 01:09:19,640 Because what ends up happening on your energy grid is that 1288 01:09:19,640 --> 01:09:23,120 we've spent all this money building up this hydro facility 1289 01:09:23,120 --> 01:09:26,040 here and this wind facility here and all these things. 1290 01:09:26,040 --> 01:09:29,960 I mean, they're economic actors, like they want to be generating 1291 01:09:29,960 --> 01:09:33,600 24 hours a day, seven days a week to pay for the excess, the 1292 01:09:33,600 --> 01:09:35,720 the cost that they expended to build this thing. 1293 01:09:35,720 --> 01:09:38,040 Yeah, Yeah. And when we've got too much of 1294 01:09:38,040 --> 01:09:40,520 one thing, that balance gets thrown out. 1295 01:09:40,520 --> 01:09:43,560 So what you end up with is wasted, trapped energy like 1296 01:09:43,560 --> 01:09:47,120 hydro scheme, for example, when that sun is shining and we're up 1297 01:09:47,120 --> 01:09:49,920 in Cairns here in far North Queensland, we've got a lot of 1298 01:09:49,920 --> 01:09:52,120 water. So through, you know, through, 1299 01:09:52,160 --> 01:09:55,360 through winter, we've got these weirs that are used for these 1300 01:09:55,360 --> 01:09:57,560 hydro facilities. They're full of water, they're 1301 01:09:57,560 --> 01:09:59,360 ready to go. All they've got to do is release 1302 01:09:59,360 --> 01:10:01,360 the water through the hydro generator. 1303 01:10:01,760 --> 01:10:05,400 But if there's not enough demand on the network, those hydro 1304 01:10:05,400 --> 01:10:07,760 generators have no, no ability to generate. 1305 01:10:07,960 --> 01:10:13,120 So the bid actually goes, goes negative and they will actually 1306 01:10:13,120 --> 01:10:15,840 get charged to generate. As crazy as a notion that that 1307 01:10:15,840 --> 01:10:19,240 sounds, if they choose to start up their generator, they will be 1308 01:10:19,240 --> 01:10:22,080 charged for generating instead of, you know, getting paid to 1309 01:10:22,080 --> 01:10:24,840 generate. So that's where Bitcoin mining 1310 01:10:24,840 --> 01:10:27,600 as an economic actor to be introduced into all of these 1311 01:10:27,600 --> 01:10:30,720 things really starts to make sense That if I've got a really 1312 01:10:30,720 --> 01:10:35,640 large load that I can introduce to the grid to introduce a new 1313 01:10:35,640 --> 01:10:38,880 revenue model, then all of a sudden I can start tapping into 1314 01:10:38,880 --> 01:10:41,160 those otherwise wasted energy sources. 1315 01:10:41,200 --> 01:10:44,600 I can start soaking up some of that excess generation capacity 1316 01:10:44,600 --> 01:10:47,080 like solar. And I can start to turn that 1317 01:10:47,080 --> 01:10:50,600 into revenue so that all those downstream costs and effects 1318 01:10:50,600 --> 01:10:52,440 don't end up going on the consumer. 1319 01:10:52,440 --> 01:10:55,920 Because if we don't do that, consumers end up paying either 1320 01:10:55,920 --> 01:10:58,040 one of two ways. They pay directly through their 1321 01:10:58,040 --> 01:11:00,760 consumer bill, through their energy bill to pay for all this 1322 01:11:00,760 --> 01:11:05,080 stuff, or they pay it indirectly through government taxation 1323 01:11:05,200 --> 01:11:09,720 because governments are then like want to incentivize that, 1324 01:11:09,720 --> 01:11:11,160 that building out of that capacity. 1325 01:11:11,160 --> 01:11:13,440 So they're going to introduce government subsidies, which are 1326 01:11:13,440 --> 01:11:16,800 funded by taxes. Great. 1327 01:11:16,800 --> 01:11:21,640 Last points. Yeah, I I think it's it's maybe 1328 01:11:21,640 --> 01:11:28,560 good to add why then Bitcoin miners, right they are computers 1329 01:11:28,920 --> 01:11:34,240 why wouldn't we use computers that do AI right or we know 1330 01:11:34,240 --> 01:11:38,520 whatever the other ideas are. But I think the the point with 1331 01:11:38,520 --> 01:11:44,400 Bitcoin is that if you have a Bitcoin mining facility and you 1332 01:11:44,400 --> 01:11:48,760 can turn off computers at will, they are not servers, right. 1333 01:11:48,760 --> 01:11:52,240 They are computers that have one task basically. 1334 01:11:53,320 --> 01:11:57,720 That is why I think bit you know, but please add like that's 1335 01:11:57,720 --> 01:12:00,920 the biggest argument for Bitcoin mining is that let's say you 1336 01:12:00,920 --> 01:12:05,840 have, I don't know, 10,000 miners and you need to turn off 1337 01:12:06,400 --> 01:12:11,360 5000 or 8000 or 7000 or 6000, that doesn't really matter. 1338 01:12:11,600 --> 01:12:17,200 But if you have a server park that is machine learning, I 1339 01:12:17,200 --> 01:12:20,800 don't know, AI, something, you know, powering something like 1340 01:12:20,800 --> 01:12:24,840 that, then it's going to be really hard to identify, OK, 1341 01:12:24,840 --> 01:12:28,840 which which servers are actually being used right now, right? 1342 01:12:28,840 --> 01:12:31,960 Like, am I not cutting someone off from the surface that I 1343 01:12:31,960 --> 01:12:32,680 provide? Right. 1344 01:12:32,680 --> 01:12:39,840 So there aren't really any other computing power or or like 1345 01:12:41,000 --> 01:12:45,440 companies or constructions that use computing power in just that 1346 01:12:45,440 --> 01:12:48,120 singular way like Bitcoin mining does. 1347 01:12:48,360 --> 01:12:51,240 Do I say that correctly? Yeah, it comes it comes down to 1348 01:12:51,240 --> 01:12:53,520 the disruption like disruptibility. 1349 01:12:53,640 --> 01:12:57,360 So if we turn off a Bitcoin mining facility, largely it 1350 01:12:57,360 --> 01:12:59,760 doesn't affect the network as a whole because it's going to be a 1351 01:12:59,760 --> 01:13:02,600 small portion of of the whole and then we just keep Tik 1352 01:13:02,600 --> 01:13:04,560 toking. And if it was a longer term 1353 01:13:04,560 --> 01:13:08,200 thing, you know the Bitcoin difficulty adjustment, you know, 1354 01:13:08,200 --> 01:13:11,360 which we don't need to get into right now, but that just adjusts 1355 01:13:11,360 --> 01:13:15,040 So the long term, it's only ever a short term effect anyway, but 1356 01:13:15,040 --> 01:13:17,360 the long term effect will will adjust as well. 1357 01:13:17,360 --> 01:13:20,560 If that were the case and you and you contrast that to like 1358 01:13:20,560 --> 01:13:25,920 you say with if it was a a data server, an AI server, whatever 1359 01:13:25,920 --> 01:13:28,960 else server, Amazon Web Services, there's real life 1360 01:13:29,080 --> 01:13:32,600 utility relying on that, on that function. 1361 01:13:32,760 --> 01:13:35,840 So you know, you can imagine if it was a Netflix server and it 1362 01:13:35,840 --> 01:13:38,880 went out, people will be up in arms with Netflix because hey, 1363 01:13:38,880 --> 01:13:41,480 my stream just got interrupted. I was halfway watching the 1364 01:13:41,480 --> 01:13:43,760 Matrix, right. And and I can no longer watch 1365 01:13:43,760 --> 01:13:47,600 it. So it's not as easy to use those 1366 01:13:47,640 --> 01:13:52,440 other types of of data centres in order to be able to switch 1367 01:13:52,440 --> 01:13:55,360 off on on a whim and and the response rate is really what 1368 01:13:55,360 --> 01:13:59,640 makes Bitcoin mining unique. So we this idea around and they 1369 01:13:59,640 --> 01:14:02,240 call it ancillary services like using load. 1370 01:14:02,240 --> 01:14:06,360 So we've got, we've got supply side demand, supply side 1371 01:14:06,360 --> 01:14:08,480 controls and we've got demand side controls. 1372 01:14:08,480 --> 01:14:12,440 So demand is about controlling load, can we control and we've 1373 01:14:12,440 --> 01:14:16,400 used really large like Iceland's a great example, they've got a 1374 01:14:16,400 --> 01:14:19,640 lot of aluminium export because they've had a lot of excess 1375 01:14:19,640 --> 01:14:23,480 energy. So aluminium smelting, aluminium 1376 01:14:23,480 --> 01:14:25,680 production is, is really energy intensive. 1377 01:14:25,680 --> 01:14:29,360 So that's where they've had all of these aluminium smelters pop 1378 01:14:29,360 --> 01:14:32,840 up in Iceland because they have excess energy and they've used 1379 01:14:32,840 --> 01:14:37,480 that as the ability to help introduce load to to to that 1380 01:14:37,480 --> 01:14:41,040 grid, to operate the same thing. But the really critical part is 1381 01:14:41,280 --> 01:14:45,440 you can't turn off an aluminium smelter or a steel mill on a 1382 01:14:45,440 --> 01:14:47,080 whim. They've got molten steel that's 1383 01:14:47,080 --> 01:14:49,880 going to harden in their, you know, in their, in their 1384 01:14:50,000 --> 01:14:52,840 production facility. So it's not good. 1385 01:14:53,080 --> 01:14:56,120 It can't react on a dime. Bitcoin mining, it can be shut 1386 01:14:56,120 --> 01:15:00,320 down within a number of seconds. We can go from really high, high 1387 01:15:00,320 --> 01:15:02,240 load. And this is the, the really key 1388 01:15:02,320 --> 01:15:05,840 thing is like even a a web server and they're going to have 1389 01:15:05,840 --> 01:15:09,840 a finite amount of power that you're going to ever draw. 1390 01:15:10,040 --> 01:15:13,200 Whereas Bitcoin mining, we can actually introduce more and more 1391 01:15:13,200 --> 01:15:15,760 as long as the the connection capacities there. 1392 01:15:16,120 --> 01:15:19,640 We can have gigawatts worth of Bitcoin load sitting there at a 1393 01:15:19,640 --> 01:15:22,120 geographical location that's suitable to the grid in 1394 01:15:22,120 --> 01:15:24,680 containers. And then if you need that 1395 01:15:24,680 --> 01:15:27,000 switched off in a hurry, you can switch it off in a hurry. 1396 01:15:27,000 --> 01:15:29,400 And if longer term it's no longer needed, we pick up those 1397 01:15:29,400 --> 01:15:32,560 containers and we relocate them to the next energy centre that's 1398 01:15:32,560 --> 01:15:34,480 required. And it's really a mind blowing 1399 01:15:34,480 --> 01:15:37,320 concept that is not fully understood by grid operators. 1400 01:15:37,320 --> 01:15:40,240 And I think the reason why, like even in Australia, 'cause I do 1401 01:15:40,240 --> 01:15:45,000 this, that's my Fiat job. I I can, you know, I I, I work 1402 01:15:45,000 --> 01:15:48,320 on this stuff from day-to-day and I've tried to enter into 1403 01:15:48,320 --> 01:15:50,160 some conversations with the regulators. 1404 01:15:50,160 --> 01:15:52,560 But you know the the, the problem with most developed 1405 01:15:52,560 --> 01:15:57,840 countries is the fact that because the energy transmission 1406 01:15:57,840 --> 01:16:02,320 grids, generation of facilities took so much money to to to 1407 01:16:02,360 --> 01:16:05,600 build out, it ended up being done by government because no 1408 01:16:05,600 --> 01:16:08,600 one wanted to touch it, because of this respect that you can't 1409 01:16:08,600 --> 01:16:11,080 make money from it. Like ultimately they're very, 1410 01:16:11,080 --> 01:16:14,400 very expensive in a traditional sense to build out these grids. 1411 01:16:14,400 --> 01:16:16,480 I've got a good example. So in Queensland state of 1412 01:16:16,480 --> 01:16:22,040 Queensland in the northeast of Australia, we've got 64,000 1413 01:16:22,040 --> 01:16:25,800 kilometres worth of what we call swirl network, which is poles 1414 01:16:25,800 --> 01:16:27,640 and wires. So it's single wire, earth 1415 01:16:27,640 --> 01:16:31,320 return, single wires you on poles, going out to cattle 1416 01:16:31,320 --> 01:16:34,120 stations, Comm sites, all of this returning through the mass 1417 01:16:34,120 --> 01:16:35,680 of the earth is the return conductor. 1418 01:16:35,680 --> 01:16:38,040 It's a pretty mind blowing concept if you're not familiar 1419 01:16:38,040 --> 01:16:40,360 with it. However, we've got 64,000 1420 01:16:40,360 --> 01:16:43,000 kilometres of this stuff that we've got to go out and service 1421 01:16:43,000 --> 01:16:46,080 from day-to-day. That services 4% of our customer 1422 01:16:46,080 --> 01:16:51,760 base, only 4% of our customers. So we it's not profitable you 1423 01:16:51,760 --> 01:16:54,840 can't do that in a profitable sense and that's why governments 1424 01:16:54,840 --> 01:16:58,160 have ended up owning a lot of the grid infrastructure over the 1425 01:16:58,160 --> 01:17:01,040 years in most developed countries because it's taken a 1426 01:17:01,040 --> 01:17:04,040 government to go and expend all of that to make sure that these 1427 01:17:04,040 --> 01:17:06,240 people out in the Bush have got power. 1428 01:17:06,760 --> 01:17:09,800 So you know and that's that's a legacy thing that we've that 1429 01:17:09,800 --> 01:17:13,520 we're going to carry forward. So, but where where the point 1430 01:17:13,520 --> 01:17:16,240 I'm trying to make is that the conversation when you've got a 1431 01:17:16,240 --> 01:17:19,720 government utility owning your infrastructure profits not 1432 01:17:19,720 --> 01:17:23,360 always the main driver whereas if you're a a private entity 1433 01:17:23,360 --> 01:17:26,280 profit's always the main driver, it's the it's the economic 1434 01:17:26,280 --> 01:17:29,520 driver that make that forms most decisions is around profit. 1435 01:17:29,520 --> 01:17:34,520 So that's I think where we see Texas ERCOT is most of those 1436 01:17:34,520 --> 01:17:38,160 generators and most of those facilities are private entities. 1437 01:17:38,480 --> 01:17:40,880 So it's been an easy conversation for them because 1438 01:17:40,880 --> 01:17:43,600 they're driven by profit. So it's a bit of a no brainer 1439 01:17:43,600 --> 01:17:50,080 when you say we can, we can continue on with the, the 1440 01:17:50,080 --> 01:17:52,720 building out of all of this, all of this stuff and we can 1441 01:17:52,720 --> 01:17:55,600 introduce this new economic actor, this new revenue source 1442 01:17:55,600 --> 01:17:58,440 to make all of that make sense. So it's a bit of a no brainer 1443 01:17:58,440 --> 01:18:00,800 for a private entity to go. I think so too. 1444 01:18:01,120 --> 01:18:02,680 You're telling me I can have access? 1445 01:18:02,680 --> 01:18:03,960 Very simple. Yeah. 1446 01:18:04,080 --> 01:18:06,520 Where you you have that conversation with a government 1447 01:18:06,520 --> 01:18:09,880 employee and they go, well we've got all these other drivers the 1448 01:18:09,880 --> 01:18:12,760 environment and social and you know all these other drivers 1449 01:18:12,760 --> 01:18:14,960 profits neither here nor there really. 1450 01:18:14,960 --> 01:18:18,040 So it's it's a harder conversation to have and you 1451 01:18:18,040 --> 01:18:22,600 couple that then with and This is why I'm a pretty you know 1452 01:18:22,600 --> 01:18:28,280 dogmatic maxi with Bitcoin and and I and I do vocally talk out 1453 01:18:28,280 --> 01:18:33,720 against all of this other grift like NFTS and you know all all 1454 01:18:33,720 --> 01:18:35,720 these crypto scams. It's because I'm. 1455 01:18:35,760 --> 01:18:38,480 I'm passionate about the conversation about what Bitcoin 1456 01:18:38,480 --> 01:18:41,080 enables humanity and energy's one piece. 1457 01:18:41,080 --> 01:18:43,160 You know, we've spoken about the money all of these things. 1458 01:18:43,440 --> 01:18:45,240 All of this other stuff is a distraction. 1459 01:18:45,480 --> 01:18:48,280 And I've had these conversations with these government officials 1460 01:18:48,640 --> 01:18:51,880 and they see Bitcoin in the same light as all these other scams. 1461 01:18:51,880 --> 01:18:55,520 And it's not it. It it is really an uplift, an 1462 01:18:55,520 --> 01:18:59,360 upgrade for humanity and all of this other stuff is a 1463 01:18:59,360 --> 01:19:01,720 distraction. And and in one respect, I'm 1464 01:19:01,720 --> 01:19:04,800 grateful from the fact that this ETF, these ETFs have been 1465 01:19:04,800 --> 01:19:07,920 approved in the United States. Because if anything, I think it 1466 01:19:07,920 --> 01:19:12,880 puts a bit of legitimacy in Bitcoin as being an asset that's 1467 01:19:12,880 --> 01:19:15,480 worthy of a seat at the table for the discussion. 1468 01:19:15,480 --> 01:19:18,680 Because now it's starting to be, you know, if Blackrock's 1469 01:19:18,680 --> 01:19:21,480 investing in this and encouraging investment in this, 1470 01:19:21,800 --> 01:19:25,360 maybe it's not embroiled in all of this other crypto and all of 1471 01:19:25,360 --> 01:19:27,480 these other schemes. So I think that conversation 1472 01:19:27,480 --> 01:19:30,600 like as a government entity they can't be seen to be coupling 1473 01:19:30,600 --> 01:19:33,480 with a scheme, right. And that's where Bitcoin's been 1474 01:19:33,480 --> 01:19:36,120 framed in the same light as in all of these other scams. 1475 01:19:36,120 --> 01:19:40,720 And we haven't had a a really good robust conversation because 1476 01:19:40,920 --> 01:19:43,000 straight away they can't see past the scam. 1477 01:19:43,280 --> 01:19:45,720 So I think that's really where the opportunity lies 1478 01:19:45,720 --> 01:19:51,440 particularly over this next cycle is legitimacy and it in in 1479 01:19:51,600 --> 01:19:56,360 in IT as an asset and then also the legitimacy as it being a a 1480 01:19:56,360 --> 01:20:01,400 very viable future load to help monetize energy grids and help 1481 01:20:01,400 --> 01:20:03,160 build out the energy grids of the future. 1482 01:20:04,040 --> 01:20:06,480 Yeah. Well, you said extra 1483 01:20:06,480 --> 01:20:08,840 profitability for commercial companies, right. 1484 01:20:08,840 --> 01:20:11,080 But I I would say that's a secondary effect. 1485 01:20:11,080 --> 01:20:16,640 The first effect is just 100% ROI just on your basis 1486 01:20:17,200 --> 01:20:20,920 investment of just the. Correct. 1487 01:20:21,640 --> 01:20:25,680 The, the how to say the equipment basically to for you 1488 01:20:25,680 --> 01:20:29,520 know for these sources so and and well fascinating that a 1489 01:20:29,520 --> 01:20:33,960 government employee or government how do you say 1490 01:20:34,040 --> 01:20:36,680 company, energy company then says to you, well we're not 1491 01:20:36,680 --> 01:20:41,280 thinking about that but yes not profitability but you could say 1492 01:20:41,280 --> 01:20:47,440 well if you are 100% efficient you know how does that sound you 1493 01:20:47,440 --> 01:20:50,600 know but but then I think we come back to what are the 1494 01:20:50,600 --> 01:20:54,000 incentives of a government and the broken money and all these 1495 01:20:54,000 --> 01:20:59,480 things like that even that is in most big organizations not even 1496 01:20:59,480 --> 01:21:04,600 top of mind right because they they are not focused on money in 1497 01:21:04,600 --> 01:21:06,760 that sense and there is always money. 1498 01:21:06,800 --> 01:21:11,000 As a company agency. Right, so there is always money, 1499 01:21:11,000 --> 01:21:13,200 so you don't have that incentive to think about. 1500 01:21:13,200 --> 01:21:18,640 Am I actually using the money in the most optimal way possible? 1501 01:21:18,640 --> 01:21:20,960 So even when you come with a solution, they are not even 1502 01:21:20,960 --> 01:21:24,760 aware of the problem right to what you bring this solution to 1503 01:21:24,760 --> 01:21:27,000 SO. And I think that's. 1504 01:21:27,080 --> 01:21:30,480 Really hard. The education opportunity exists 1505 01:21:30,480 --> 01:21:34,480 for to reach out to consumers, right is like your energy bills. 1506 01:21:34,480 --> 01:21:36,680 Everyone's energy bills are increasing and they're going at 1507 01:21:36,680 --> 01:21:39,440 an exponential rate. So if you understand Bitcoin, 1508 01:21:40,120 --> 01:21:43,440 also understand energy, and then start having those conversations 1509 01:21:43,440 --> 01:21:47,080 with your members of Parliament. To say, I demand this like this 1510 01:21:47,080 --> 01:21:49,680 is, you know, if it's a government infrastructure, it's 1511 01:21:49,960 --> 01:21:53,320 really belongs to the people. Therefore, I demand that you at 1512 01:21:53,320 --> 01:21:56,080 least investigate this, this notion of being able to 1513 01:21:56,080 --> 01:22:00,040 introduce a new revenue source that's gonna obviously secure 1514 01:22:00,040 --> 01:22:03,520 the network do all these excess extra things, extra benefits, 1515 01:22:03,800 --> 01:22:07,200 excuse me a second, start a phone call coming through all of 1516 01:22:07,200 --> 01:22:10,640 these extra benefits. And I as a constituent of your, 1517 01:22:10,800 --> 01:22:13,600 of your government demand that you at least look into this 1518 01:22:13,600 --> 01:22:16,520 because it's gonna mean I'm, I'm gonna have cheaper or more more 1519 01:22:16,520 --> 01:22:18,720 approachable energy bills into the future. 1520 01:22:18,960 --> 01:22:22,040 And I guess like in particular if if where this is really 1521 01:22:22,040 --> 01:22:24,440 important is if renewables actually resonates with, you 1522 01:22:24,920 --> 01:22:26,680 understand like this is a millennials podcast. 1523 01:22:26,680 --> 01:22:30,960 So I think millennials in general are a bit more accepting 1524 01:22:30,960 --> 01:22:34,560 of of this idea around achieving 100% renewables, right. 1525 01:22:35,000 --> 01:22:38,200 It's, it's critical. You cannot have an energy grid 1526 01:22:38,200 --> 01:22:42,840 as safe, reliable energy grid based on renewables if you don't 1527 01:22:42,840 --> 01:22:46,120 have Bitcoin mining at least playing a part in that energy 1528 01:22:46,120 --> 01:22:49,200 mix and and I can explain why that is a little bit around 1529 01:22:49,400 --> 01:22:53,000 again, it ties back into this notion around maximum demand, 1530 01:22:53,000 --> 01:22:54,600 right. But if we look at maximum demand 1531 01:22:54,600 --> 01:22:58,120 from a renewables perspective, wind energy, we talk about this 1532 01:22:58,120 --> 01:23:00,560 thing in in the energy space called capacity factor. 1533 01:23:00,560 --> 01:23:03,400 So that is what is your installed capacity and how much 1534 01:23:03,400 --> 01:23:07,920 of that are we likely to be able to tap into on average you know 1535 01:23:07,920 --> 01:23:12,360 reliably into the future. So wind energies have around 30% 1536 01:23:12,360 --> 01:23:15,400 efficient at best. OK, so that means if your 1537 01:23:15,400 --> 01:23:19,600 maximum demands here, you need at least three times the size of 1538 01:23:19,600 --> 01:23:23,840 your maximum demand in installed capacity in order to be able to 1539 01:23:23,840 --> 01:23:26,760 maintain a safe, reliable grid. Now that's a, that's a, it's a 1540 01:23:28,200 --> 01:23:30,160 it's there's a lot more nuance in that, right. 1541 01:23:30,160 --> 01:23:33,200 And I'm not saying that even the notion of Bitcoin being the 1542 01:23:33,200 --> 01:23:36,360 panacea to soak up all that extra 2/3, but it's going to be 1543 01:23:36,400 --> 01:23:38,840 if. We talk about fair value for the 1544 01:23:38,840 --> 01:23:43,680 energy that already 3X is the price, the fair value of the 1545 01:23:44,040 --> 01:23:46,400 correct energy in a sense, right? 1546 01:23:46,400 --> 01:23:50,240 If you do nothing exactly. So I mean and and this is where 1547 01:23:50,240 --> 01:23:53,920 the framing sometimes I think we get it wrong in in the Bitcoin 1548 01:23:53,920 --> 01:23:56,560 space about it being the panacea to fix everything. 1549 01:23:56,640 --> 01:24:00,160 It it won't be the panacea, it won't soak up all excess 2/3 and 1550 01:24:00,160 --> 01:24:01,520 that's not what we're suggesting. 1551 01:24:01,520 --> 01:24:05,360 But it definitely will play a part in that energy mix to be 1552 01:24:05,360 --> 01:24:08,880 able to make that sustainable. So the types of things to make 1553 01:24:08,880 --> 01:24:13,760 100% renewable grid that that they're looking at, you know, in 1554 01:24:13,760 --> 01:24:18,160 Australia, nuclear's not really considered nuclear is in my mind 1555 01:24:18,160 --> 01:24:20,640 a good option to making sure that you've got rotating 1556 01:24:20,640 --> 01:24:22,120 machines. It's got a lot of benefits for 1557 01:24:22,120 --> 01:24:25,000 the stability of a grid. But if we ignore nuclear for a 1558 01:24:25,000 --> 01:24:28,720 second, what they're looking at in that energy mix is solar, 1559 01:24:29,120 --> 01:24:33,320 wind, battery storage, hydro, pumped hydro. 1560 01:24:34,400 --> 01:24:37,040 And then we're also looking at different things like hydrogen 1561 01:24:37,040 --> 01:24:38,520 production. That's another good way. 1562 01:24:38,520 --> 01:24:40,960 But hydrogen production is also very inefficient. 1563 01:24:40,960 --> 01:24:44,200 That's only about 30%. You'll expend three times as 1564 01:24:44,200 --> 01:24:47,320 much energy as you will be able to store with current 1565 01:24:47,320 --> 01:24:48,920 technology. It doesn't mean that that won't 1566 01:24:48,920 --> 01:24:52,120 improve over time, but this is the the type of energy mix that 1567 01:24:52,120 --> 01:24:56,320 we need to start considering in and around introducing extra 1568 01:24:56,320 --> 01:25:00,320 revenue into that grid to be able to monetise and get your 1569 01:25:00,320 --> 01:25:04,000 ROI on those capital projects to make everything else viable. 1570 01:25:04,560 --> 01:25:07,440 So you can invest in battery storage, so you can invest in 1571 01:25:07,800 --> 01:25:08,400 high. Exactly. 1572 01:25:08,400 --> 01:25:10,960 And pumped hydro and all of those sort of things over time 1573 01:25:10,960 --> 01:25:13,040 and and build out a reliable grid because nobody wants 1574 01:25:13,040 --> 01:25:16,360 rolling blackouts like that's that's not where we want to go. 1575 01:25:16,800 --> 01:25:17,840 That's a failure. Yeah. 1576 01:25:18,080 --> 01:25:20,080 Yeah, yeah. And I think like it's it's a, 1577 01:25:20,080 --> 01:25:23,440 it's a tragedy that some like and and particularly those in 1578 01:25:23,440 --> 01:25:26,160 the younger generation are actually saying I'm OK with it, 1579 01:25:26,520 --> 01:25:29,120 I'm OK with rolling black, Yes, 'cause I've got to do my bit. 1580 01:25:29,120 --> 01:25:32,440 You know it's this it's this real socialist type of mentality 1581 01:25:32,440 --> 01:25:37,720 towards towards the future which it's I mean that might be that 1582 01:25:37,720 --> 01:25:42,440 might be admirable in in some circles but it's not needed like 1583 01:25:42,440 --> 01:25:44,360 that. That's the if if we if we don't 1584 01:25:44,360 --> 01:25:46,520 have to have rolling blackouts you don't have to make the 1585 01:25:46,520 --> 01:25:50,200 sacrifice and we can have all of the benefits of a nice reliable 1586 01:25:50,200 --> 01:25:54,480 safe grid while also making sure that it's it's profitable for 1587 01:25:54,480 --> 01:25:57,120 the companies to run and your energy costs are as small as 1588 01:25:57,120 --> 01:25:58,800 they can be. It's a bit of a no brainer in my 1589 01:25:58,800 --> 01:26:04,440 mind. I think it's because in some way 1590 01:26:04,440 --> 01:26:11,720 the line of communication has been energy usage is bad. 1591 01:26:11,720 --> 01:26:15,400 But as I think as we talked about before the the entire 1592 01:26:15,400 --> 01:26:19,040 world, world revolves around energy, right. 1593 01:26:19,160 --> 01:26:22,240 I I mean like if you look around, if I see you here, a 1594 01:26:22,240 --> 01:26:27,920 plant, a book, a candle glass in my in my window, everything 1595 01:26:27,920 --> 01:26:31,000 costs energy to create or maintain, right. 1596 01:26:31,000 --> 01:26:34,680 So the the, the fact that we now think, oh, energy usage is bad, 1597 01:26:34,680 --> 01:26:37,880 now energy, we need more use of energy. 1598 01:26:37,880 --> 01:26:40,800 That's how we propel our civilization forward. 1599 01:26:40,800 --> 01:26:45,360 Right. But the fact that people really 1600 01:26:45,360 --> 01:26:49,360 think this, right, I think it goes back a bit to the mental 1601 01:26:49,360 --> 01:26:50,560 model that we talked about before. 1602 01:26:50,560 --> 01:26:53,480 When when, you know, there's people who really think this, 1603 01:26:54,000 --> 01:26:55,680 oh, yeah, I'm OK with rolling blackouts. 1604 01:26:55,680 --> 01:26:58,400 Then again, you're deferring your own responsibility to 1605 01:26:58,400 --> 01:27:02,400 someone else who is not able to figure it out, right. 1606 01:27:02,560 --> 01:27:06,640 They're not able to figure out how to make, you know, these 1607 01:27:07,800 --> 01:27:12,000 renewable sources economically viable to actually use and give 1608 01:27:12,000 --> 01:27:17,480 us more energy so we can actually go go forward, right. 1609 01:27:17,480 --> 01:27:23,280 So you're again letting yourself be defeated by the, I don't want 1610 01:27:23,280 --> 01:27:26,160 to say incompetence, right, but by the actions of other people. 1611 01:27:26,160 --> 01:27:28,960 But it's also because we just don't know, right. 1612 01:27:28,960 --> 01:27:33,760 It's only by studying and and yeah, it's just studying. 1613 01:27:33,760 --> 01:27:36,680 It's just spending time and most people don't have the time to 1614 01:27:36,680 --> 01:27:40,200 study money. That's what we talked about, 1615 01:27:40,200 --> 01:27:41,640 right. But this is a whole nother 1616 01:27:41,640 --> 01:27:44,440 subject basically. And I think that is also the 1617 01:27:44,440 --> 01:27:50,240 problem in a sense that it's so easy to just basically lay down 1618 01:27:50,240 --> 01:27:56,160 and, you know, follow what other people are saying, right? 1619 01:27:56,160 --> 01:27:58,840 It's just it's hard to think for yourself. 1620 01:27:58,840 --> 01:28:02,360 If you cannot even get to the level of knowledge or 1621 01:28:02,360 --> 01:28:06,160 understanding to think for yourself to create your own 1622 01:28:06,160 --> 01:28:10,880 opinion or view on something, then of course you follow other 1623 01:28:10,880 --> 01:28:13,080 people. And and it's really like it's a 1624 01:28:13,080 --> 01:28:15,880 bit freedom of choice as well. And I think it's, it's setting a 1625 01:28:15,880 --> 01:28:18,880 really bad precedent because, I mean, you might agree with that. 1626 01:28:18,880 --> 01:28:21,400 You might say I'm OK with rolling blackouts, but you're 1627 01:28:21,400 --> 01:28:24,720 then forcing your decision on everybody else because you can't 1628 01:28:24,720 --> 01:28:27,800 just. Back in time yourself if yes 1629 01:28:27,880 --> 01:28:30,280 also. But we're also going back in 1630 01:28:30,280 --> 01:28:33,040 time. Yeah, in a sense, right. 1631 01:28:33,040 --> 01:28:37,240 We're going back to the 1900s or 1800s or whatever. 1632 01:28:37,240 --> 01:28:40,360 And I I talked about this in in previous episodes. 1633 01:28:40,360 --> 01:28:44,320 It's it's also downstream from the money as you mentioned 1634 01:28:44,320 --> 01:28:47,560 before, right? Like I like to say, like 1635 01:28:47,560 --> 01:28:49,760 currently this is part of my pitch, right? 1636 01:28:49,760 --> 01:28:53,360 But why is it funny that the bread was $0.20 fifty years ago 1637 01:28:53,880 --> 01:28:56,840 and now it's four or $5 or EUR whatever your currency is, 1638 01:28:56,840 --> 01:28:59,400 right? Like that is going back in time. 1639 01:28:59,400 --> 01:29:02,360 Things should become cheaper. Energy is abundant. 1640 01:29:02,400 --> 01:29:04,800 Right. And if you're going to be OK 1641 01:29:04,800 --> 01:29:07,560 with rolling blackouts then welcome to the 1800s. 1642 01:29:07,560 --> 01:29:10,200 Right. It's it's so illogical. 1643 01:29:11,280 --> 01:29:14,360 Yeah, I this is something I really want to fight personally, 1644 01:29:14,360 --> 01:29:16,520 right? Because it's just, yeah, you're 1645 01:29:16,520 --> 01:29:21,640 convinced of something that is not real and very, Yeah, it's 1646 01:29:21,640 --> 01:29:23,120 nonsensical. It doesn't make sense. 1647 01:29:23,200 --> 01:29:26,880 It just doesn't make sense to agree to that just because, 1648 01:29:27,800 --> 01:29:30,120 yeah, other people are incompetent or the money is 1649 01:29:30,120 --> 01:29:32,280 corrupted, basically, right. Couldn't agree more. 1650 01:29:32,680 --> 01:29:35,520 Yeah. Interesting. 1651 01:29:35,520 --> 01:29:37,400 I love how our conversation went. 1652 01:29:39,000 --> 01:29:44,480 Two really different directions. But yeah, that's what I love 1653 01:29:44,480 --> 01:29:46,520 about Bitcoin. That's what I love about talking 1654 01:29:46,520 --> 01:29:50,200 to other Bitcoiners. These are I think two of the big 1655 01:29:50,200 --> 01:29:55,720 dimensions of Bitcoin for people to again I think study and 1656 01:29:55,720 --> 01:29:58,960 eventually like try to under understand. 1657 01:29:59,000 --> 01:30:02,320 I think one also doesn't exist without the other, vice versa, 1658 01:30:02,320 --> 01:30:04,080 right? Like you, you have to understand 1659 01:30:04,080 --> 01:30:06,600 these things. So, and there's a whole. 1660 01:30:06,600 --> 01:30:09,640 Host of downstream effects like like you say, it all just comes 1661 01:30:09,640 --> 01:30:13,200 back to to money ultimately and all of the downstream effects of 1662 01:30:13,200 --> 01:30:15,040 money. And if we fix money and we can 1663 01:30:15,040 --> 01:30:17,800 fix energy and we can fix real estate and we can fix all of 1664 01:30:17,800 --> 01:30:20,120 these things, 'cause everything is is correlated. 1665 01:30:20,120 --> 01:30:22,040 Everything's you know, connected. 1666 01:30:22,040 --> 01:30:24,240 So you know it and that's why I'm here, man. 1667 01:30:24,240 --> 01:30:28,120 That's why, you know, that's why I love, I love Bitcoin from that 1668 01:30:28,120 --> 01:30:30,800 respect that it it it ultimately, if you you can 1669 01:30:30,800 --> 01:30:33,880 still, you can peel back all of these layers and you can find 1670 01:30:33,880 --> 01:30:37,200 really sound arguments to like it's again, it's a cliche and 1671 01:30:37,200 --> 01:30:38,920 it's overused. Bitcoin fixes this, but it 1672 01:30:38,920 --> 01:30:41,120 really, really does. It's it's incredible. 1673 01:30:41,120 --> 01:30:43,480 Yeah, I think, you know, fix the money, fix the world. 1674 01:30:43,480 --> 01:30:46,680 Sounds very grandiose, right? But I think for people, 1675 01:30:47,120 --> 01:30:49,880 especially also millennials, right, People who are concerned 1676 01:30:49,880 --> 01:30:52,400 about the future, people who have young families, right? 1677 01:30:52,400 --> 01:30:59,640 Like, I'm the same, right? But the I think I tweeted this 1678 01:30:59,640 --> 01:31:02,720 yesterday, but think about everything you would want to fix 1679 01:31:02,720 --> 01:31:09,480 in the world, whatever it is, it is in that state. 1680 01:31:09,960 --> 01:31:13,080 Because the money is broken. Every, every bad thing in the 1681 01:31:13,080 --> 01:31:14,800 world is downstream from the money. 1682 01:31:14,800 --> 01:31:18,320 The money broken money, you know, creates prefers, 1683 01:31:18,320 --> 01:31:20,760 incentives and people will abuse that, right. 1684 01:31:20,760 --> 01:31:22,480 And that's why we have to fix the money. 1685 01:31:22,960 --> 01:31:25,920 Money, that is, that that we cannot tamper with, right? 1686 01:31:25,920 --> 01:31:28,480 And I mentioned the corruptibility of of the humans 1687 01:31:28,480 --> 01:31:31,600 before, but I think This is Money that fixes our own 1688 01:31:31,600 --> 01:31:34,160 corruptibility because we cannot fuck with it. 1689 01:31:34,480 --> 01:31:38,200 And that is the entire point. We need money that we cannot 1690 01:31:38,600 --> 01:31:41,560 corrupt or any other person can corrupt, and that's the 1691 01:31:41,560 --> 01:31:45,040 trustlessness, right? So if we have that technology to 1692 01:31:45,040 --> 01:31:48,040 exchange value between each other that is incorruptible, 1693 01:31:48,320 --> 01:31:52,760 then we we can try to be corrupt as humans. 1694 01:31:52,760 --> 01:31:56,760 We can try to scam or abuse, you know, whatever the Bitcoin money 1695 01:31:56,760 --> 01:32:00,760 system is that we use. But you won't get really far. 1696 01:32:01,040 --> 01:32:02,840 And the same goes for governments, right? 1697 01:32:02,840 --> 01:32:06,480 I think what you said like if you eventually start demanding 1698 01:32:07,560 --> 01:32:10,800 and you can do that as citizens, I think you can demand your 1699 01:32:10,800 --> 01:32:14,320 things because you can demand what will be good for you 1700 01:32:14,320 --> 01:32:19,080 because the government is also just other people, right. 1701 01:32:19,880 --> 01:32:24,160 And they have the same issues with you know, their personal 1702 01:32:24,160 --> 01:32:27,800 internal challenges, whatever their family at all all these 1703 01:32:27,800 --> 01:32:31,320 things. Like I think it's Steve Jobs 1704 01:32:31,320 --> 01:32:35,760 says like everything you see has built was was made-up by people 1705 01:32:35,760 --> 01:32:38,520 not not smarter than you, right. I think that's that's really 1706 01:32:38,520 --> 01:32:41,080 true. So if we have an incorruptible 1707 01:32:41,240 --> 01:32:45,040 way of exchanging value, then everyone needs to basically get 1708 01:32:45,040 --> 01:32:47,520 in line including the government, right. 1709 01:32:47,520 --> 01:32:52,680 And then if they want to ask you for money to subsidize their bad 1710 01:32:52,680 --> 01:32:57,200 investments in renewable energy sources and we have Bitcoin, we 1711 01:32:57,200 --> 01:33:00,240 can say, you know, well, convince me, pitch me, you know, 1712 01:33:00,240 --> 01:33:05,520 like just not take it from me and not and and then use it in 1713 01:33:06,120 --> 01:33:09,120 in the, you know, an ineffective way. 1714 01:33:09,480 --> 01:33:12,960 So yeah, I mean, I love this conversation. 1715 01:33:12,960 --> 01:33:16,520 I think this is really what it's about, so I want to thank you 1716 01:33:16,520 --> 01:33:18,880 already so much. But I do have a last question 1717 01:33:18,880 --> 01:33:22,080 that I want to ask, and I ask everyone the same same question. 1718 01:33:22,440 --> 01:33:25,840 And the question is what is a core belief you will never let 1719 01:33:25,840 --> 01:33:29,720 go? My core belief I'll never let go 1720 01:33:29,720 --> 01:33:34,960 is I think this notion behind you know, and this isn't 1721 01:33:34,960 --> 01:33:39,160 necessarily Bitcoin related but this this notion of you're 1722 01:33:39,160 --> 01:33:40,840 you're in charge of your own destiny. 1723 01:33:41,680 --> 01:33:45,840 So thank please don't sit on the sidelines thinking that you 1724 01:33:45,840 --> 01:33:49,000 don't have optionality and you don't you can't do anything in 1725 01:33:49,000 --> 01:33:52,800 in your present circumstance. Bitcoiners, I think get Bitcoin 1726 01:33:52,800 --> 01:33:55,800 really quick, 'cause we've most of us are self motivated people. 1727 01:33:56,080 --> 01:34:00,720 We read, we take the the opportunity to improve 1728 01:34:00,720 --> 01:34:04,040 ourselves, to to learn to to never stop learning. 1729 01:34:04,040 --> 01:34:06,640 And I think that's a core belief of mine that will never stop 1730 01:34:07,400 --> 01:34:10,400 changing is like, you know, I I talk about this optionality of 1731 01:34:10,400 --> 01:34:14,280 Bitcoin and around it, giving me optionality and that may mean 1732 01:34:14,280 --> 01:34:19,560 that I might be able to leave my Fiat job one day and pursue the 1733 01:34:19,560 --> 01:34:20,880 things that I'm passionate about. 1734 01:34:20,880 --> 01:34:22,360 It doesn't mean I'm going to stop. 1735 01:34:22,360 --> 01:34:24,160 I'll never retire. I will never stop. 1736 01:34:24,160 --> 01:34:29,200 I'm one of those, you know, motivatedly minded people to 1737 01:34:29,200 --> 01:34:32,000 keep the hustle going. But it'll just mean that I can 1738 01:34:32,000 --> 01:34:35,480 choose where I direct that time. And I think if if there's a core 1739 01:34:35,480 --> 01:34:39,440 belief that that I, I, I hold really true, that I can never 1740 01:34:39,440 --> 01:34:43,280 see changing, is that people need to upgrade themselves. 1741 01:34:43,440 --> 01:34:45,120 They need to never stop learning. 1742 01:34:45,120 --> 01:34:47,240 They need to always be looking inwards. 1743 01:34:47,240 --> 01:34:49,000 Reflection. How can I be better? 1744 01:34:49,120 --> 01:34:52,680 How can I keep learning? And what can I do in order to 1745 01:34:52,680 --> 01:34:55,360 change what's in my sphere of influence? 1746 01:34:55,400 --> 01:34:57,600 If I don't like my world, take action. 1747 01:34:57,760 --> 01:35:01,840 If I don't like my situation, my job, my you know, the way that 1748 01:35:02,280 --> 01:35:04,640 you know you're interacting with family and friends. 1749 01:35:05,120 --> 01:35:07,800 Own it, Own it. Look in, look inward and see 1750 01:35:07,800 --> 01:35:10,680 what can I do to affect change. Because it's in with your within 1751 01:35:10,680 --> 01:35:13,840 your power, within your ability to learn about what you need to 1752 01:35:13,840 --> 01:35:17,760 do to make the change. Amazing ending. 1753 01:35:17,760 --> 01:35:19,280 Love death. Thank you. 1754 01:35:19,760 --> 01:35:22,400 Thank you for your time. From I absolutely loved it, man. 1755 01:35:22,440 --> 01:35:24,840 Appreciate your time. Me too, man. 1756 01:35:24,840 --> 01:35:26,640 Well, I hope to see you again in real life. 1757 01:35:26,640 --> 01:35:29,200 I don't know when or where, but let's let's see. 1758 01:35:29,520 --> 01:35:33,800 I'll link to your X account. Looking glass. 1759 01:35:33,920 --> 01:35:37,440 The book, so people can follow you and check out your stuff. 1760 01:35:37,440 --> 01:35:39,360 And yeah, thanks again, man. And I. 1761 01:35:39,360 --> 01:35:40,760 Appreciate it. Thanks. 1762 01:35:41,040 --> 01:35:43,160 Cheers. I hope you enjoyed this episode. 1763 01:35:43,160 --> 01:35:46,160 If you did, it would be amazing if you could rate, review, and 1764 01:35:46,160 --> 01:35:48,720 subscribe on the podcast platform of your choice. 1765 01:35:49,000 --> 01:35:51,680 It will help us educate more millennials on the importance of 1766 01:35:51,680 --> 01:35:53,720 Bitcoin. You can follow and connect with 1767 01:35:53,720 --> 01:35:57,720 me on Twitter. I'm Bram K That's at BR AM K and 1768 01:35:57,720 --> 01:36:00,200 if you are or know someone who has an interesting perspective 1769 01:36:00,200 --> 01:36:02,160 on Bitcoin that's worth sharing, hit me up. 1770 01:36:02,520 --> 01:36:04,280 I read and reply to every single message. 1771 01:36:04,560 --> 01:36:07,080 I appreciate your support and hope you'll be here for the next 1772 01:36:07,080 --> 01:36:08,520 episode. Thanks for listening. 1773 01:36:08,800 --> 01:36:09,040 Bye.