Hey there, this is Tom Constant and you're listening to Bitcoin
for Millennials. Together with my guests on this
podcast, I go on a journey to discover how our current
financial system works, why it's flawed, and why Bitcoin is most
relevant technology that you should understand and adopt.
Today I'm joined by Peter Dunworth.
He's a financial advisor for high net worth individuals and
families specifically focused on Bitcoin with this company, the
Bitcoin advisor serving clients since 2016.
And he is also one of the people who I think has the highest
price prediction of Bitcoin in the entire world.
But the scary part is that his reasoning for it makes a lot of
sense. Let's get into it.
Welcome, Peter. Pleasure to be with you.
Thanks for having me. Thanks for coming on.
I've really enjoyed your your content and you taught me a lot
already. I think I'm a big novice in like
the financial and economics economic dimensions of of
Bitcoin and you're one of the people who has definitely helped
me to understand more about it. But yeah, I would.
I wanted to have you want to to obviously learn, learn a bit
more and hear your thoughts on what is happening with with
Bitcoin in the world and how it's changing.
But I wanted to do a quick check in the beginning.
Which generation do you belong to?
Good question. I'm not sure about that which
year was? You're born 77, late 70s, so
does that put me in the Gen. No, maybe not.
Gen. XI.
Think you're Gen. X then?
Yeah. OK.
Gen. X, Yeah, that's kind of the.
The age group that lost out on the property, the huge property
boom, the huge upswing in a lot of things and it was too old for
the tech boom. However, we're in the perfect
position for for Bitcoin. So I think look swings and
roundabouts, every generation gets an opportunity and you know
I think the baby boomers had an opportunity that was like no
other in investing in property and shares and they had 40 year
tailwinds that. Seem to be unraveling a little
bit now, but for the best part, they had a a 40 year relatively
uninterrupted ascension to incredible capital values that I
don't think they could have dreamed of back in the 80s.
And we're in a very different position.
You know it's September 2023 and the titles have turned so to
speak. So it's a completely different
investing environment to where we were in the early 80s.
Yeah. And So what, what got you into
investing and and finance in the beginning?
Good question or probably just an interest in business.
So having a father who was running a small business or
small to medium sized business and we talked about business as
you know, one of the things that we love discussing from you know
probably the age of 8 to 10 upwards, it was a dinner
conversation, it was you know, when we'd sit around or have a
spa and. Or swim in the pool or catch up.
We'd be talking a lot about that because that was a huge focus
for my father and he was a huge inspiration for that interest in
business and wanting to understand what it takes to make
money and deliver services that people want to have.
And that's what piqued the curiosity in that.
But ironically, it took until Bitcoin to really understand
what is money. No, that's interesting.
I have a question about money later, but like how.
So you were interested in that. You grew up in an environment
where you talked about that a lot.
How did you turn that into your career or your interest,
especially in the advising side of things?
That was relatively easy because studying business at school,
business and legal studies, that gave me sort of a granting or an
understanding of what to be expected in the business world
and then? The most or the broadest degree
that I think we could do from a business perspective is an
accounting degree. So I studied accounting and
finance which gave me the most options to look at the broadest
range of businesses that I could possibly serve.
So every business needs an accountant and that gives you a
really great understanding for the numbers both sides of the
balance sheet, panels, balance sheets it it's really critical
to to understanding what makes a good business and ironically
though. All of the studies never taught
me about what is money. So therein lies a conundrum
that, you know, you sit there and study accounting, study
finance, and it's all about the, you know, the accounting for
money, but no one actually tells you what it is.
So it's curious, let's get, let's get to, let's get to that.
And how do governments control or influence money?
But also, yeah, what is then your question to to what is
money? How do they influence money?
Well, they effectively have full control over it.
So you know, by law they mandate what is legal tender.
Legal tender is the money that you can use in the jurisdiction
that you live in. So you know where you are in.
Europe has a very different, different money to what we use
in Australia. And the local governments who
issue that money, well, firstly they're responsible for issuing
that money and controlling it. They issue they that they are
responsible for the issuance of the money.
They're they're responsible for the destruction of that money.
They're responsible for everything in and around that
money, including the interest rates that are ascribed to the
borrowing of that money. Ironically, it's typically set
up as a a quasi government institution in the form of a
Federal Reserve or a, you know, a state owned bank.
That dictates and mandates that the cost of money being the
interest rates that that are required to pay pay for that for
that money. So in effect when you say cost
of money, is that then also kind of like the worth of the of the
money, right. So when you say that they, they
set the interest rates, yeah, I want to, I want to explain to
people like when they set the interest rates, right, they they
actually say what a bank has to well, they borrow that money,
right. The banks can can get money like
that's like the the lowest level of interest that they can ask
for a loan, right? Correct.
And so typically a state owned bank issues has interest rates
at the lowest, lowest available because that's considered the
riskfree rate in the country that you're in.
So in the US, it's the Federal Reserve their their riskfree
rate or the Federal Reserve overnight funds, right?
Is it sitting at about 5.15%, give or take?
In Australia, it's 4.1 In Europe, I think it's a lot lower
than that. And so that's considered the
riskfree rate if you borrow from the government because that's
perceived as being riskfree because they're the ones
printing the actual supply into existence, which brings to the
next dimension of money. So you've got the cost of money
and then you've got the actual supply of money.
So how much money is there? Is there less money than there
was a year ago, or is there more money and this is?
Probably what is on everyone's mind at the moment, in the last
12, well 36 months, we've really seen a huge spike globally in
the amount of money in in supply.
And what that does is that makes it very difficult to have price
stability for services, goods and services.
So a function of having a an increasing supply in money is
the fact that in order to preserve purchasing power of
that money. The prices of everything need to
go up and hence the reason why in the last sort of two years
we've seen a massive increase in the inflation rate.
And then as a subsequent consequence of that, you've seen
the cost of money and the interest rates that the the
Reserve Bank charges. The cost of money has basically
gone up in an attempt to curb that inflation rate of rising
prices. Yeah, but.
And then in eventually it becomes kind of like a loop,
right, where the cost of the money goes up, prices, the
numbers on whatever you want to buy goes up, therefore you need
more money. And it's like an endless spiral.
Does that in any way still reflect the value of the things
that people want to buy or like how?
How can people judge that then? It's very difficult because it
distorts what what the value of things are when you've got a
money supply that is expanding and contracting without any
consciousness. That the consumers and the
residents have no consciousness around what's actually happening
with the money supply, because you don't get to see what's
happening in real time. You only see the price of goods
and services that you're purchasing on a daytoday basis
start going up exponentially. And you're wondering, you know,
when did it cost me $50.00 to go down to the local supermarket to
pick up a few items? And it's like, well, this never
used to be the case. The same basket of goods that,
you know, I picked up three years ago was costing half as
much as it does today. It used to only cost me $25.00,
but now it's at 50. And you know, when that starts
happening across the board, all of a sudden people start going
to their employer and saying, you know, basically my cost of
living has just doubled. I want to pay rise.
You know, a 2% pay rise is no longer on the cards.
I need, you know, 6-7, eight, 910%.
And this is where we get to what you alluded to earlier, a wage
price spiral, where basically there's going to be inflation
and the high inflation causes wages to go up and then wages
going up causes prices to go up. And that's a bad place to be.
And then people are mostly talking about the number, right?
Like I need more units to buy the same thing of value because
a banana is still a banana and a house is still a house, right,
And a phone is still a phone. Is this the biggest thing that
people need to understand about how the financial system works?
Or is there another thing that that you think they they don't
understand and is even more important?
I I think it's critical understanding how the money
works and ironically, no one really teaches you how the money
works, probably for good reason. You know, I think Henry Ford
said if people understood how the money worked, banks would be
nonexistent the next day because people would be riding.
And they'd be understandably upset about the fact that an
arbitrary group of people get to set the the supply of, you know,
the amount of money that's in the system.
And they get to control that at their whim and they also get to
set the cost of that capital. And this is where having a
subjective oversight on these two control mechanisms, which
have huge ramifications for the entire economy, the entire
country, it affects the country at every level.
It it's a little bit disconcerting to think that, you
know, a very small group of people have such an influence on
on the economic and broader prosperity of a nation.
And if we unpack that a little, like people go to work or they
have a business, they earn well, they spend their energy right to
deliver the service or create a product and then sell it.
Therefore they get energy back in the form of what we call
money, right, The coins and or well, the numbers on the screen
nowadays. But because there's.
So that is within your control obviously, right?
How much energy you put in, like how good of a quality your
product or service is and therefore like the amount of
units you can ask for it. But then there's also this
outside reality of, as you mentioned, a few people or an
unknown entity of which most people don't know the names, the
faces, etc. Like they kind of create this
well playing fields in which you then have to play in order to
keep the energy that that you accumulated, right?
Correct. And this is the really tough
thing, because once you understand that game, then the
real game is a foot of how do you preserve that purchasing
power? Yes.
So you've got to understand that the purchasing power is being
whittled away from you, or you're being robbed of that in
some way, shape or form, typically in the form of
inflation, because it's the most insipid form of it, however.
Once you understand that that is the game and your job is to
preserve your purchasing power, your life force in a monetary
form, then then that that sets you down the rabbit hole of what
are the investing options to preserve that.
So if you look across the broad spectrum of it, you you need to
then understand or become a master of, you know, investing
in stocks, bonds, property. Commodities and you know my all
time favorite Bitcoin. But that in itself is literally
a full time job and you know is one of our largest industries is
financial services and why does that even exist?
Because people have a huge well people have huge trouble
actually suffering. What is the best investment for
them and how do they go about, you know, understanding this and
it literally is a full time job for me to, you know, effectively
try and figure out what's happening in the market and.
Understand what is what are going to be the best investment
options for my clients moving forward.
And this is something I do all day, every day, let alone, you
know, I find you don't. Have a full time.
Correct. And.
And here's The funny thing, like I do this all day, every day and
you know, I struggle with this, particularly at this point in
time. It's a very difficult time for
investing and making clear longterm investment decisions.
I can only imagine how tough it is for someone who has to do a
nine to five and then come home and try and figure this stuff
out like it is. Yeah, it's a it's a whole
decision. Being aware of it.
Yeah. And being aware of the fact that
you need to do that. Right.
We'll get to this in a minute. But I wanted to go back to the
word you used the word robbed. Like you're getting robbed.
In my conversations, I use this word too, but I find it that
people find that a really difficult word.
When you say you're being robbed by the government or you're
being robbed by the people in charge or whatever, right?
Like that. I found it very hard also to
phrase it in a different way. But now that you use this word
like, how can you explain this? Because sometimes I also see
people share things about this 2% inflation is so low that you
are slowly getting robbed. You don't really, you know,
understand that you're losing the energy that you accumulated.
You know, your wealth, your money.
And if someone comes into your house and just steals 2% of your
things, you don't really kind of notice it.
But now that it's more right, 56710 in some cases, well,
hundreds of percentages in some countries.
Why do you use the word robbed? And is that the most friendly
word you can use? Or?
No, but it's not the friendliest word to use and it probably has
connotations of being held up or armed robbery is probably the
the initial connotation that or thought that is provoked by the
term rob robbed I I think it's the most apt term for describing
that though, because the The thing is, is that we don't have
a choice in it. No one voluntarily says I'll
give 2% of my income because, hey, I'm a good person or I'm
I'm happy to pay 2%. To this inflation that's robbing
all of us. It's it's an unfair and unasked
for cost of being a resident in a nation.
And so for that reason, I think it's the fairest term to say no
one actually voluntarily asked to to give that 2% away.
And the only reason it's 2% is because the federal banks, you
know, Federal Reserve or Reserve Bank of Australia or the ECB are
basically. Carving out and creating these
inflation rates that are effectively robbing us all of
this. And you know, the old analogy
with, you know, a frog in a boiling pot of water, you know
when when the water's just warm, the frog can stay in there all
day and it's okay. But you know the second you turn
that that heat up and actually want to start cooking the frog,
he's going to jump out of it. So the the the best way to do it
is to, you know, lull them into a false sense of security.
Not too high, not too low. Just right so that the frog
basically gets cooked and doesn't jump out of the pot.
And this is the This is why the inflation target is 2% and not
10%. Because it was 10%.
You'd be bleeding out and your money would be halving every 10,
every seven years. And that is an unacceptable
level of loss. Before, before the crowds turn
around and basically start paying for blood.
You know, no one wants to have their purchasing power halved
every seven years because. And it means you effectively
need to get a 7% pay rise every year just to stay even.
So, yeah. And so that 2%, you know, this
is also something that recently has been new to me.
Like, is this kind of like following a certain economic
ideology in terms of growth or is this a malicious thing?
Like how? How should you judge?
How should you judge that? Why isn't it zero, for example?
Like what is the point here? There's many lies to this
question. Firstly, you know there is a
target rate of 2%. And to your to your question,
why isn't it zero? That's a very good question.
Why isn't it zero? Well, the Powers That Be and
Jerome Powell was in Congress recently or up on the Hill
discussing that very question. Why is the number 2%?
And that was others do, other, he said.
Others do it or something. Those explanations.
And that that was deemed the acceptable level of inflation
for price stability. But it's really not an
acceptable level, particularly if you have the ability to have
negative or deflation where prices actually go down.
And their concern is when you, and this is probably getting a
little date, but when you have an expansionary monetary system
built on credit. Yeah, it's critical that you
have information which means, which means to illustrate, I'm
also discovering for this podcast, right, like how deep to
go. But no, I love the direction
where you're going, but I want to industry.
So the debt based system, you mean when someone deposits $100,
a $100 in the bank for example, a bank can loan out 90% of that
which on paper is new money, right?
For example, so I deposit $100. The $10 is kept in the bank as
my as like solid money or something like that.
The bank can loan it to 90%, so $90.00 for example, to you, you
can buy something for $90.00 and a person who gets that $90.00
can put that in the bank and then $9 gets held and $81.00
gets loaned out again, right? Like that's the debt system,
Yeah. Yeah.
And and this is where if you don't have inflation, it's very
difficult. That debt thing gets very costly
to repay because part of the debasement of the money is the
inflation, which means the debt is easier to repay.
So there's some huge connotations to this.
And a a little side note on that fractional reserve lending which
you just highlighted after the global financial crisis of 2008
and 09, there was a. The financial accord struck the
Basel 3 Accords, which said how much money a bank needs to hold
in order to lend out and of the deposit.
That's money, right? Correct.
So on a home loan across those banks that subscribed to it, it
was across the globe like pretty much most major countries
subscribe to it, China, the US, Europe, Australia, if you
consider it the big country. But on a serious note, they all
subscribe to it and. The capital adequacy ratio,
which is how much you needed to have on deposit to lend was 5%.
So in order to lend $1,000,000 you needed to have $50,000 on
hand. So 20X.
And just a little side note, we're we're going through and
I'm not sure if you've discussed with your listeners, the Chuck
Point 2.0 where the banks are clamping down on crypto
exchanges and transferring money from the banking system to them.
But think about this from a deflationary perspective.
If you've got $50,000 sitting in your bank where you are or where
I am, and we move that $50,000 from the bank to the crypto
exchange to buy Bitcoin and then self custody it, you have
effectively robbed that Bank of the ability to loan out one.
Million makes a lot of sense. Oh my God, This is why the banks
don't want to do it. Because on that $1,000,000
they're probably making a 2% margin on $20,000 and so if not.
More right. If it's a home loan or you know,
over over 30 years, 20-30 years, correct.
That's per year $20,000. Oh yes.
So I mean, This is why they're not keen on having money leave
to go to buy Bitcoin because it's hugely deflationary for the
for the entire market credit perspective.
And so basically, this is where my mind goes.
When you put your money in the bank, you're effectively lending
it to the bank. So the bank can lend it out 10
times over and earn money of which you don't see any upside,
right when it goes right. When it goes wrong, then you
will definitely see you will be the one who pays the bill at the
end. Correct.
If a bank fails and it gets billed out by a government or
like, that all eventually comes from the taxes and the people or
the money printing and then it goes back to the debasement
again. Yeah, hits you lose, tails you
lose. It's just.
Exactly. But also when you say they need
5%, they need to hold 5% of actual.
Money, or at least something they can give to their customers
of all the of all the money that's been loaned out, right?
So does that also mean that only 5% of people can actually get
all their money out of a bank if they go to the bank and say I
want my money? Well, technically it's worse
than that because the reserves they hold on bank are actually a
whole lot less than the 5%. So if you look at the US banking
system, it's fractions of that. It's probably less than 1%.
So no, they don't have the cash available to give you.
If everyone went to the bank and said, hey, we want our money
back, it's just not there, Sorry.
So if I sell you something and you give me cash and I hold it
on me, I actually own it more than when I put it in a safe
bank, correct. Because if you stripped away all
of the the obligations that the bank had, they don't have the
cash there. That's that's a critical thing
to understand. Now it might be backed by the
government in Australia. We've got the four pillars
policy, the Four Pillars Act, I should say the Four Pillars Act
basically is the four major banks in our country are
guaranteed or underwritten by our federal government so that
if any depositor loses, you know deposits, they will cover that
up to $250,000. But what happens if you've got
$1,000,000 sitting in one bank, it's gone and that bank falls
over, you've lost 750,000. But don't worry, the the
government will give you a check for 2:50.
So you haven't lost all of it, so.
All right. I think this is a nice stepping
stone. We're slowly getting towards
why? Why Bitcoin?
I still wanted to ask you, like when we talk about this, like do
you still think capitalism is? The most ethical economic
system? Or isn't that even the topic
that we are talking about? We don't know what capitalism is
like. We think we're operating with a
capitalistic market. There is a pretense of a
capitalistic market, but it is not a capitalistic market at
all. It has all of the, you know, the
trimmings of of capitalism or it's it's described that way.
But the second you get the government involved and and
start regulating things, then that is no longer capitalism.
That is crony capitalism, which is the government looking after
the major stakeholders in an industry.
And that's fundamentally what we have.
We have market distortions created by government
regulations to look after the large players in each of those
industries and Facebook when they were under huge pressure
and asked to go to Congress to basically discuss what they were
doing, to talk about online misinformation.
The rest of it because Donald Trump won the election.
Basically Mark Zuckerberg went to went to the regulators and
basically said, you know, we're going to pay for 18,000
moderators to sit on and basically review content on our
site 24/7. And basically that was rubber
stamped and great. If anyone runs a social media
platform, they need to have 18,000 moderators on the site to
monitor, you know, you know, speech.
That's not satisfactory. Now what startup on earth has
the ability to pay 18,000 moderators to moderate content
on a social media site? No one.
So all of a sudden that that protection that is a basically a
protection racket run by the US government to protect Facebook
from any competition. Because if anyone wants to enter
the social media saying to compete with them, you know,
where's your 18,000 moderators to make sure that no one's
getting upset with, you know, everything that's on here.
And I'm like that's. The same for for banks being
compliant to a Basel or any other regulation, right.
And This is why the banks typically have the lowest
interest rates because they're the, they're the most closely
aligned to the federal banks that that operate in the
jurisdictions. And then as you go out the risk
curve, the interest rates of those, you know, the lesser
lesser known banks goes up because their cost of funding
goes up as well. Yeah.
All right. So we talked about money.
We talked about banks. We talked about holding wealth
in, you know, what are ways to hold wealth or invest in things
to keep your wealth? What is wealth and why should
millennials care about it? That's an interesting question.
So what is wealth? Wealth I believe is
fundamentally where you store your assets.
And basically, you know, wealth I believe gives gives clients
options. It gives clients a sense of
peace, of mind, a sense of security, a sense of being able
to know that if something would have happened to them, they have
the ability to resolve certain situations that come up in their
life. It might be a significant event
in their life, like the, you know, the a parent might get ill
or a child might get ill, you have to pay for that.
I think wealth in, in my understanding basically provides
options to people. So some people define it
differently, but to me I think it it gives people optionality
and the more wealth you have, the more options you have.
And does that also tie into people wanting to be able to
save that over time that basically right that that when
you. Search for and hopefully find a
vehicle to save that wealth, right?
Because you don't know when you're going to get sick or your
child is going to get sick or someone dies or whatever.
Is that also something you then take into consideration?
Like that time, that time aspect, I think it is because
our money is such doing such a bad job of being a store of
value. So because our money is so bad,
we now have to look at, you know, investing it in things
like real estate or stocks to avoid that purchasing power just
whittling away. And this is forcing people to
think about, you know, savings in a very different way.
We now have people saving money in the form of buying investment
properties or buying stocks or God help them, bonds, as a way
of, you know, you know, preserving wealth.
However, that's typically, you know, the conflation of of a
long term and a short term store of value.
Store of value is meant to be a store of value where your money
can actually store the value. But because the money is so
broken, that money doesn't serve that function anymore.
So we are forced out the risk curve to find riskier
investments that serve that function of saving.
Yeah, Okay. And then we get to what is
probably the core question I want to answer with this
podcast, and I'm interested to hear your answer.
What is Bitcoin and why should I care?
Here's Bitcoin. I think Bitcoin is whatever you
want it to be. And I say that because it
provides you the greatest optionality that I know of.
And what do I mean by that? Bitcoin.
As you know what is Bitcoin? Bitcoin gives you the
optionality on purchasing anything you want with it.
So what is money again, money is fundamentally whatever you want
it to be, because everyone wants money.
It can purchase anything. So effectively, Bitcoin is money
and money is Bitcoin, and Bitcoin is basically whatever
you want it to be. It's something you're going to
hold as an option on trading for something that you want in the
future. And what's really special about
Bitcoin, I think, is that it is a it has the ability to hold
purchasing power over very lengthy periods of time without
getting caught down or bogged. Bogged down in all of those
investment decisions that you would have to make around what's
the best stock, what's the best property, how much debt am I
going to take on with this property?
What areas do I need to be in? It's a very simple savings tool
that is going to preserve your purchasing power over the long
term. And this is where, you know, as
facetious as this sounds, what is, What is Bitcoin?
It's literally whatever you want it to be.
It can be a savings tool. It can be used to purchase a
house, a car. It can be used to do whatever
you want, or alternatively can literally sit there like a pet
rock to preserve your purchasing power into the future.
And ironically, that is my preferred way of of thinking of
Bitcoin as, you know, my little pet rock that preserves
purchasing power for the options that I may want to use in the
future. Yeah, it's funny.
I actually have the same like I am a.
I'm a pretty risk averse person and a control freak to some
point. Like I once made a tweet about
that, like that's exactly why I'm into Bitcoin, because it's.
So it's actually, it's hard to understand, obviously, that's
why I'm talking on this podcast with people.
But it's actually very simple, like I just see it as.
Yeah, how you said it, you know that's the term store value.
I see it as a box where I put my wealth and then I close the box
and I don't do anything and it just, it just stays there.
I don't have to look at anything.
I don't have to calculate anything.
I don't have to do anything. It's just it sits there
protected over time until until I want to use it for something.
But do you think that that store of value element is where all
the other stuff? Kind of like derives from,
right? Like if I want to pay for
something that other with Bitcoin, that other person is
accepting it because they know they can store, you know, the
energy that that trade represents, right?
Like the value of that car or whatever we trade that they can
also actually keep it in Bitcoin.
So that's why they prefer it over any type of other money,
because it does have to store a value element that.
The regular money, let's call it regular money, does not have
because it's melting at at least 2% a year.
I think all of those points are valid and in order to be a form
of money, it needs to have some subjective value.
And so, you know, people who are accepting Bitcoin, whether they
accept it to convert it into, you know, Fiat or alternatively
they can they accept it to basically to add to their stack,
I think you know, very closely aligned.
But the person who's adding to their stack I think is a more
meaningful bitcoiner because they're taking Bitcoin supply
off the market and not adding cell pressure.
So this is where a circular economy running with a store of
value is going to create. There isn't enough circulating
supply of Bitcoin to facilitate all of the trade that's required
on a daily basis. And then this is where we see
real price discovery, where the price of Bitcoin is going to go
through the roof because in in my work.
There's a limited amount of Bitcoin units to service an
expanding amount of trade, right?
Correct. And and this is the glorious
thing about a, you know, a hard cap, limited supply asset like
Bitcoin. They can't make any more of it.
It's 21 million. That's it.
And when people figure out what this thing is and they
understand what is money, they're going to accept nothing
but Bitcoin. And this is where, you know,
there are a few companies we work with where they've gone
down the rabbit hole they work in and around Bitcoin.
They have a very deep understanding of what it is.
And ironically, they do nothing but except Bitcoin for their
services. Why?
Because they understand what money is and they don't want
basically shitty fear. And I mean, if you're in the ECB
and someone came to you and said, hey, except this
Venezuelan Blvd. it's it's as good as money, you know you're
going to tell them to. Read it cuz it has the label
money, right? But to you it means nothing
because you don't care about the Venezuelan Blvd. cuz it's
probably halved in value just on the flight over from Venezuela.
Okay. So obviously you see Bitcoin
now, but in the beginning you mentioned you were interested in
business, finance, economics and it took you until learning about
Bitcoin, what actual money is, so?
What made What made you see Bitcoin when like when did you
realize what you were investigating or looking at?
It was a very slow process. Sadly, it took me a very long
time to understand it and sadly they weren't the resources that
we have today, such as your podcast.
Back when I was trying to understand it, there was a very
limited understanding of it. There were very few books on it
and I was just very fortunate to have a brother who was very
receptive to his older brother asking questions and he was
exceptionally patient. So it took me a very long time
to get it and I I just wonder if I would take as long to get it
if I started today. And sadly I I probably wouldn't
because there are so many things with Bitcoin that basically put
you off the track. And you know, I think about the
first financial lesson that I was given as a child was
something along the lines of if it sounds too good to be true,
it probably is. And when you talk about Bitcoin,
it sounds too good to be true. Can you imagine a little bit
later, you? Realize, Because everything else
is so shitty, right? Yep.
You do the work and you realize. Well, look, I think this thing's
too good to be true, and it probably is.
So maybe I should allocate just a little bit of my net assets to
it and then once I understand it a little bit deeper, then I can
allocate more. But that is, therein lies the
dichotomy of Bitcoin. Is that, you know, you don't
understand it, so you don't want to put money into it.
But in order to understand it and learn faster, you need to
put money into it. So there needs to be a fine line
between, you know, what are you prepared to lose if you're going
to invest in this, and then how do you accelerate your learning?
And you know, I think for anyone's skin in the game
accelerates learning. So it's about getting
comfortable with what you're prepared to lose if you and I
are completely wrong about this asset.
And it does go to zero. What can you sleep at night with
having having put into Bitcoin? So therein lies the, you know,
the conundrum for people to face that you know you want to get
started, but you don't want to be scammed, People don't want to
look stupid. And when you hear people saying,
hey, this thing's amazing and it sounds too good to be true, that
little bit, it's daunting. It's daunting.
Yeah. I do think, like, you have to be
stupid in order to learn, right? Like you have to fail in order
to figure out, like what actually works is it's a really
interesting, interesting paradox there.
And just also as a little side note, like if Bitcoin turns out
to be nothing, you know, I think the the thesis still stands, You
know, it's either nothing or it's everything, right?
Like that's. At one point I just adopted
that, but I think I also once said in a podcast like if this
turns out to be nothing, like an actual scam or something, Like
if that actually turns out to be the thing I really have some
soul searching to do. You know?
Like after, you know, looking into this for 10 years,
thousands of hours like this is just the logical thing that I
end up with. And if this turns out to be not
that thing, then honestly, I don't know what to.
What to trust anymore, right? Like I I I really feel like I
scoured the grounds and I learned all the things once.
I always share. Like I bought my first Bitcoin
at 300, but I also like that's not to flex because I also sold
at 4000, right? So everyone gets in that new at
the next congratulations. Of understanding well, yeah.
Well, yeah, congratulations. But when you see what it could
have been, then you think like I was stupid, but at that moment
that was my decision, right? And then you get back at each
new point of, I'd say new level of understanding not only the
system that we talked about, but Bitcoin, but also yourself and
for example, how risk averse you are or not and what you want to
do to build your life basically. What do you what do you think is
the main thing that people need to unlearn before they can
understand Bitcoin? Risk free rate does not
determine the value of an asset which translates.
To so our entire financial modeling whether it's valuing
stocks or valuing investments or understanding and you know
valuing risk or options pretty much revolves around an internal
rate of return like and and that is predicated on what is the
interest rate that that asset is going to cost you to hold it.
So the riskfree rate is typically the Reserve Bank of
Australia, the Federal Reserve Bank of America whatever their
interest rate overnight is typically saying or the 10 year
is typically saying as the riskfree rate of capital.
So what that is, is that's a benchmark that your investment
needs to return over just to break even because you can give
it. To the natural risk.
Right, correct. You can give it to the local
bank. Risk free and they'll give it
back to you because they print the money.
Now that's that's the minimum hurdle that needs to be made.
And then you look at the cost of capital, what are the hurdle
rates that you want to see in order on to get a return on
something. And so the problem is, is that a
lot of those returns and risks are basically calculated on the
fact of what is the cash flow generated from holding a certain
asset. So if you look at stocks, they
have dividends. That's a return on the asset.
You look at property that's got rental yields, that's a return
on property. If you look at bonds, they've
got interest rates or coupons that they pay you.
That's a return on holding an asset.
So all of these different assets have a return profile, which
determines how much you get paid for holding it.
Enter Bitcoin and you get paid 0 for holding it.
So it's very difficult using the traditional financial metrics of
valuing things to determine and ascribe a value for Bitcoin
because it breaks the mold in so many respects with Bitcoin and
traditional assets. And you know, I I think about
one of the things that, you know, sort of is, you know,
diametrically opposed to traditional financial wisdom.
Firstly, you know the first thing we've already discussed is
if. If it's too good to be true, it
probably is. Ironically, with Bitcoin, I
don't believe that is the case. It's better than we understand
it to be. We just don't have a clue of how
good this thing can be. You look at Bitcoin and you
think, well, there's no, you know, there's no interest rate
with Bitcoin, so there's no return on it.
So how do we value something that doesn't have a return on
it, whereas all other assets on earth but the commodities have a
return on it. So, you know, you're sort of
trying to mesh two worlds and there's no real way of doing
that. And then the other thing is
Bitcoin is a transformational asset that you know basically
transcends any of the traditional forms of assets that
we're familiar with today. And we'll totally redefine what
assets are and what the function of money is.
But we just don't know that today because this is basically
a monetary, monetary instrument that's wrapped up in a new
technology that we really. You know, we can talk about
understanding it, but we have no understanding of what the
implications are going to be with this long term in society.
And this is where we do our best to understand it.
And you know, I try and apply a finance lens around it to come
up with some form of valuation metric for valuing this thing.
But it's very difficult because you need to suspend belief in
the traditional ways that you know you've been trained to, to
value things. So when you say it transcends
these other things like what's the, what's like the core
understanding in that, like why, why do you say that?
What is so different basically? There are probably, I think, 4
things that are different about it to anything that has ever
existed before. And these are four key
technologies which I think will totally redefine society.
It'll reshape things and. We don't have a way of
understanding what the implications of this will be
just yet or how to value it. So if I look at Bitcoin as a
technology first and foremost and the technology, the
technologies that have been found or discovered with
Bitcoin, however you want to describe that and then describe
those technology step function improvements to to money itself.
I think there are four key things that that are a
technology improvement that we have never seen before.
Now the first is seizure resistant.
We've never had an asset that is seizure resistant.
So this is an asset that you and I can walk around with with 12
words in our head. That is a profound improvement
of holding gold, or trying to store gold on your body or hide
it, or, you know, have a title for a land deed or a land title,
something like that. No one can take that from you,
right? That's the point.
Huge. And with all other assets, that
basically is not the case, right.
If you hold a bar of gold, I shoot you, I get the gold, it's
mine, right? But even with real estate, for
example, I think, well, I know some millennials who are into
real estate, even that, as you mentioned, it's a deed like it's
a piece of paper. And when you sell your house to
me, the name changes from your name to mine.
But that's still that ownership is, well, probably with a lot of
rules, it's kind of shown as to be mine.
But still, everything that determines whether or not it's
mine is outside of me. Correct.
And and it is yours at the discretion of your government.
So as long as you play by their rules, that's yours.
However, the second you step out of line, it is no longer yours.
And you just need to look at, you know, the foreign reserves
of Russia and what happened in the last 18 months to two years
that they thought they owned those assets.
Turns out they're on the SWIFT system and their 500 billion in
foreign reserves are no longer controlled by them.
They're not fixed. I think this for, well,
especially millennials in the Western world, sounds very dark
and unfamiliar. Like, I agree with it, but it
also feels very foreign to me, right?
Like a government could take away your house or your business
or whatever. But perhaps it's not about the
actual action, but more about the concept.
As in, you only own it by because other people allow you
to own it, right? Maybe if we stick to that
concept, right. And then we say like, well,
because it is that the people that allow you to own it can
also take it away from you conceptually, right?
And that should trigger something.
Well, as to how much you, how do you say, accept that, right.
If you accept that, of course, then it's fine, yeah.
Well, this is the problem that, you know, in Western democracies
we haven't really had cause to. Question our governments and
their ability to take our things, I think, tell me if I'm
wrong or not, but I think you had a little bit of trouble with
some farmers over there where the government wanted to take
their land. Is that correct?
And they had no choice in whether they wanted to sell it
or not. The government was going to take
it well. I I I'm not that's familiar with
it, but I think conceptually yes.
The answer is yes. But I don't I don't know
everything about it. I also do think it's bigger
outside of our country than actually within our country.
Or maybe that's the whole point that we.
Know it could be, but regardless it's, it's outside of the
control of the property owner to determine what they want to do
with it. Yeah.
So that's that point. Yeah, that that is absolutely
the critical point that we have never had to think about this
until now. And now all of a sudden, there
seems to be some fairly egregious overreach on behalf of
our governments to want to dictate what we do with our own
property. And the whole question of
property rights is now up for debate again.
Yeah. So do you actually own what you
think you own? And the question, well, the
answer to that is very simply, no, we don't.
We no longer own what we think we own.
We own that the discretion of our government that as long as
we. Play by the rules and are seen
to be good actors, then that is, you know, the government will
allow us to continue to think we own it.
But if for whatever reason they don't want you to do that or
don't want you to hold that, they have the power to take that
from you, which is terrifying, yeah.
So does that also tie into, I wrote this down and I think you
mentioned it now before. Like I don't really view storing
my wealth in Bitcoin as buying or investing.
I I just think of it as a safer place to to put that what I
accumulated like what's your what's your view on that.
It sounds like you're almost getting to think about Bitcoin
as a unit of account, and the financial game that you're
playing is very different to most people in that most people
are counting how many dollars they have.
And your game that you're playing, by the sound of it, is
how many satoshis you have. Well, that's interesting.
I don't know if I am there yet, but I more view it as like okay
I had well, yeah, it's a fair point.
Like I had money, energy in one system, which well, also in this
conversation I think my end conclusion was I don't think
that is the best system. I found a better system, a
supreme system. That's where I'm moving that
energy to store it until whenever I want or need to use
it. So that's where I'm at.
I do understand what you're saying.
And I see some people as well, like they only think about okay,
how many, how many Satoshi's or how many Bitcoin do I have?
Like, I still think in euros and dollars, like I have to buy
bread and coffee. So I'm definitely not there yet.
I meant it more in a way that when you understand that that
system that you're basically forced up in because you were
born in country XYZ, right? If that is something that you
don't think is most beneficial for building your wealth, then
you just move to something else. Yeah, and I think this is a
conclusion that a lot of bitcoiners get to after studying
this thing for countless hours. That you know when you compare
that to the opportunity cost of investing in something else.
It's very difficult to justify investing in other things other
than Bitcoin, particularly at this point in time.
Very difficult and is this why we I think we, but also others
say that this, that Bitcoin could be a solution to the
problems that the current system creates.
Yeah, I think it could be. And this is where.
It it, it will not be without a fight though, because
governments want to have control and this is where we've seen
central bank digital currency, CBD C's rolled out or they want
to roll that out. And why is that?
Because they want to maintain control of the Ledger.
And you know, I'm reminded of an old saying, he who controls the
pen wins. If you get to write what's on
the Ledger, you've got a very high chance of winning whatever
game you're playing. And the governments do not be
fake the rules, right? The ruler that makes the rules.
And you know, not many people want to give up that pen once
they've got it. And the government sure as hell
don't want to do that because then someone else is writing
their Ledger and they are then they are then accountable to
someone else. Yeah, well, I think this is a
great illustration of what Bitcoin gives.
Everyone has the pen. That's that's The funny thing
and to me it's the fairest game I've seen and it's the.
The other thing that I think it totally redefines in society is
the ability to trust again that we now have a Ledger that is
fair because everyone can access that no one can alter.
And the the ability for no one to alter it means that it's fair
for everyone. And this is something that you
know in light of all that we've gone through and the economic
sort of our peoples that we've seen since COVID.
This is something that I think is longed for from broader well,
from broader society that. They don't understand what this
thing is. They don't understand what a
Ledger is. And most importantly, they don't
understand the importance of, you know, not being able to have
a government to rewrite the Ledger to suit them.
So this actually works for the masses.
But I think the government's going to do a very good job of
creating a psyop that is going to tell everyone how horrible
Bitcoin is because it's going to, I don't know, boil the
oceans or whatever other FUD you want to think of.
Well, and that's what I also really love about Bitcoin, that
forced transparency basically, you know, like the boiling the
oceans argument I think is very interesting because Bitcoin is
ultimately, you know, is fundamentally transparent even
with this energy use. You know, like the rebuttals of
any simple argument against Bitcoin are so basic and so
simple that for me, it makes me laugh sometimes when I see these
things where I think you're trying to play the people who
argument against Bitcoin, they're trying to play within
this old game of obscurity and vaguely describing any counter
arguments and stuff like that. But because Bitcoin is
fundamentally transparent, like there's a rebuttal to any any
counter argument based in the foundation of the actual thing,
It's not even an opinion of people, you know, It's just a
representation of of the data in that sense.
And and I love that contradiction between, you know,
if you have to say you're transparent or honest or
whatever, you are not right. You can only be that when you
can show it. And I think Bitcoin can show
that 24/7, 365 all around where any alternative to that does not
have that. And therefore even even just
that simplest thing for me makes Bitcoin superior in that sense,
right? Like, yeah.
And this is a very hard list to learn because you know, when
you're entering a new area, you don't know a lot about it.
And you see mainstream media, you know, describing narratives
that are, you know, trying to undermine Bitcoin.
It's a very easy thing to get behind and support.
But you know the the the narratives of father.
Basically I believe about Bitcoin, you know about the the
negative effects of it is storytelling without facts.
And then this is the glorious thing about Bitcoin is that you
get to present the counter arguments to that and absolutely
walk the floor with a whole host of really well thought out, well
researched arguments that totally destroy the reasons why
you wouldn't want this. In in the mainstream.
So we're very fortunate, like there are a lot of super smart
people working on Bitcoin and every day I'm shocked at, you
know, how clever some of the people are who have, you know,
basically done a lot of work to counter a lot of these arguments
against Bitcoin. So we're exceptionally fortunate
in that capacity. Yeah, I agree.
Like I love Daniel Batten on Twitter who has a big investment
fund in in Bitcoin related energy companies.
Right. And the companies that are
mining. And I absolutely love how how do
you say like well methodical and scientific, he is in countering
any any argument that comes. You know any energy or
environmental argument that comes across the table.
Yeah that's amazing. And also actually really love.
I don't know. I don't know what the title is
of the article your your brother wrote.
Oh, Bitcoin is time traveling energy.
Yeah, that, that and anyone. I would say Google that, but
also read it like five times before you actually understand a
bit of it. It was, yeah, crazy.
But I love. I think that's also kind of like
why at least I'm into Bitcoin. Like, I learned so much, I
learned so much and I unlearned so many things that, yeah, I
just really enjoy. I now enjoy being wrong or
learning something new. You know, like my origin.
Like what? I saw this in the previous
podcast. Like when I worked at a bank, I
learned that the money in the bank is not yours.
And at that moment I've just felt like I'm such an idiot.
Like I'm an idiot. But OK, now I really want to
understand, you know? And I think that's just a fun,
fun way of operating, basically just understanding that you
don't know everything and that, you know other people's spend
their time and energy to explain their point of view.
And then if you if you do the time by reading something
someone else wrote, you know and and do the reflection as to how
much you actually understand or how it changes your beliefs, I I
think, you know, we can only turn out for the better there.
So yeah, I I wanted to finish up with with three last questions.
What kind the kinds of first principles influence your
thinking about the topics that that Bitcoin touches?
Like, obviously, Bitcoin touches a lot of dimensions, politics,
economics, finance, tech. I think for me the number one
primary driver, sort of from a first principles perspective,
which I think is exceptionally powerful in understanding the
world and understanding any problem that you're trying to
solve, is show me the incentive, I'll show you the outcome.
Understanding incentives in a system is critical for
determining what is happening there.
And this is where Bitcoin I think, is the most perfect
system for aligning incentives that I've seen.
And understanding that incentives are aligned at every
level in this system, it tells me that this has the highest
probability of surviving and succeeding and that is critical
to understand from a first principles perspective now.
That doesn't really help in understanding Bitcoin.
But from a from a first principles perspective, I think
it's very important to to to then understand what is Bitcoin
and go down that rabbit hole of, you know, searching for
understanding it on a deeper level so that you can understand
that this is the most perfect system that's ever been
developed for aligning incentives for 8 billion humans.
Yes, this is a huge huge. It's a complete sea change that
we've never seen before. Nothing on Earth has had the
opportunity, you know, align 8 billion people's interests.
You know, the best we've been able to do, depending on how you
look at it, is, you know, Facebook's got 2.8 billion
people. You know, whether or not that's
an alignment of interest, that's another thing.
But, you know, that's some degree, probably people, yeah,
but that's a collective group of people.
And you know, maybe the largest religion on earth has been able
to align 2 billion people's interests.
But nothing has captured everyone.
And this is where you know, I look at Bitcoin from a first
principles perspective and once you understand, show me the
incentive, I'll show you the outcome.
Understanding what is the primary driver of humans.
Sadly, we haven't developed past the reptilian brain.
It's that simple. Under pressure, that reptilian
brain and those instincts get amplified.
And our our most primary of decision making comes down to
two things. Fear and greed, fight or flight.
And so once you understand that, that's the thing driving out,
you know, sophisticated and cultured brain.
We're really no better than little reptiles running around
making decisions based on that. But we didn't have the
abstraction to, you know, create reasons for it.
But at the the end of the day, it comes down to greed and fear.
And when people understand this, they're going to get really
greedy to have more, and they're going to be really fearful if
they don't have any. Yeah.
Well, if we tie that back to what we talked about about you
know the money in the banks and they're only obligated by rules
to keep 5% of the money. Well, if if you talk about
incentives, right, if if you only need to keep 5%, then your
incentive is to well spend or lend that other 95% to to
anything basically. And what is the outcome of that?
Is a foundational flawed, a foundationally flawed system
right that eventually, when it keeps on growing, it has to blow
up at some point? That's it.
And therein lies the opportunity for something that has a
virtuous cycle. And this is where Bitcoin, I
think, has that ability. Yeah.
All right, well, let's talk about your price target.
If we don't measure in how many bitcoins someone has, it's crazy
to say, but it's in the millions, in the billions of
dollars per Bitcoin, what's the simplest way to explain how you
got here? There are two ways that we can
get to a multi billion dollar Bitcoin.
There's a more nuanced take on it, which leads to a much higher
number than what I'm about to go through.
But the simplest way of looking at this, I think, is thinking
about if Bitcoin is the most perfect form of money that we've
created. Once people understand that,
they will want for nothing else when it comes to dealing in
trade. So that's what we mentioned
before, right? If I if I know that Bitcoin is
superior and I am selling something, I only want Bitcoin.
For it. Give me the Give me the good
stuff. I don't want the US dollar.
I don't want the euro, all right?
I want the real stuff. Give me the real money.
And this is how. Countries around the world
suffering from hyperinflation deal, they they want and they
pay a premium for the US dollars because that's that's not
hyperinflating relative to the local currency.
So understanding that premise that I think we're all driven by
reason and we we make rational decisions.
Once people understand that this is the best form of money ever
invented, people are going to only accept Bitcoin for for
payment of their services. There is. 900 bitcoins minted on
a day and we've got $6.3 trillion of global trade on a
daily basis. So assuming that there's a
functioning credit market and stable coin on on Bitcoin that
we can effectively use, then my expectation is is that all
global trade will be facilitated by what is mined on the day.
So that would be 6.3 trillion / 900 Bitcoin.
And that would give us a valuation close to $7 billion as
well. Yeah.
So basically you say if everyone wants the best form of money for
whatever they trade, they will trade anything they have for the
amount of that money that is available.
Correct. And you know, you think about
this and a lot of people go, oh, but that would be more money
than. Is in the world right now and
like yes that is correct. It would be because market cap
is downstream of price which is created at the margin.
So price is created, which means what someone will pay for it,
right? Not the total accumulated amount
of money, correct? Did I say that correctly?
Correct. And this is where market cap is
really a meaningless metric. So a lot of people hear that and
go. Oh, that's not possible because
instead of, you know, a quadrillion dollars worth of
value in the world, there'd be thousands of quadrillion dollars
worth of value in the world. It's like you're missing the
point, but you know, understanding that people will
only accept the best money and there's only a certain amount of
Bitcoin minted on the day. That to me is the truest
expression of what Bitcoin should be valued at because it
provides the greatest optionality in the future.
Now, we're a long way from having 8 billion people educated
on that understanding. But this is the beauty of this
podcast. We get to discuss these ideas,
Think about it rationally. If anyone thinks that you know
these ideas and thoughts are, you know, nonsensical or
outlandish, I'm happy to hear the rebuttal.
But based on, you know, some of the things that we've discussed
tonight, that's my expectation of what will happen now, how
long it takes to get there. Is another question.
You know how long is a piece of string?
I don't know. But understanding that at some
point in time the world will understand what the best form of
money is, and unless you are very low IQ or maybe don't
understand how the world works, there's only one form of money
that you want to accept and that is Bitcoin.
All right. To extend on that before we wrap
up, like if if that represents more dollar units than what the
actual money in the world is, right, which is basically what
people tell you, isn't that also the point where we lose those
numbers and it's more about the value of the asset in which we
then save and trade? Basically, wouldn't that
eventually result in a lot of prosperity that people will
actually do more valuable work to earn this ultimate asset?
Yes, it will. It would.
I believe it would totally redefine society and it would
allow us to, you know, to quote GG, you know, it would allow us
to do value for value. So there'd be far less frivolous
opportunities squandered, you know, because you've got access
to cheap credit when credit's really expensive.
You want to build something that's really valuable that
people are going to want to pay a fortune for.
Because doing anything other than that is is a huge
opportunity cost to just holding your Bitcoin.
So all of a sudden, I think humans are going to get insanely
creative to to create these opportunities of value to to
deliver to to bitcoins throughout the world.
And then all of a sudden it's going to unlock a whole host of,
you know, human ingenuity and creativity that's going to
produce a whole host of things that we can we can't even
imagine today. So I think it completely
redefines and reshapes. What our future looks like for
the better. Sounds like that results in true
capitalism. It may well, it may well.
And I'm not that. I think that there's no place
for the government. I think there is in some way
shape or form, but I just think it will be in a drastically
reduced position to what it is today.
All right. Last question, What's the core
belief you will never let go? To make light of this I I try
and keep an open mind, so I'm not sure.
About a core belief that I have, that I that I will never let go
and I'll I'll share with you one story about why that what what
changed my thinking on this. So it's quite comical and to
think about this, but I was an absolutely toilet paper over guy
and you know the argument. Yeah, exactly.
This sounds so ridiculous. I had this argument day before
yesterday. So now before we go into it, are
you an over guy or are you an under guy?
I'm an over guy, but I heard a really compelling under
argument. Well, I I've been an over guy my
entire life. Yeah, until until I got a dog
that loved eating toilet paper. And so the over guys when you've
got a dog. They will just literally empty
the roll and it goes and it's like, Oh my God, now the dog's
eating the whole toilet roll and got to deal with those issues.
However, yeah, you can hide it on the backside.
Well, on an under they just keep running and that thing keeps
folding over and the dog never gets the tissue, so it never
comes off the spool. So this is, you know, an opinion
I held really tightly was as an over guy for many, many years.
But the dog changed my mind about six years ago, so I try
not to hold any opinions too tightly.
All right, Well, that's very funny.
I think I had this conversation with my with my girlfriends.
We are both over people. But she also really wants a dog,
so maybe that'll change at that moment when we have a dog.
Okay, That's a great. That's a great answer.
Well, thanks so much for this talk.
I really enjoyed it. Where can people follow you,
Find you? Yeah.
This is the moment to share. Thank you.
Well the website I've got is the bitcoinadvisor.com and that is
Advisor with an ER. You can find me on Twitter.
Peter BTC Advisor. And any questions my D Ms. are
open love to talk and help anyone who's looking at
collaborative custody or estate planning concerned about self
custody. In that capacity we do a really
good job of making sure clients are in a position to hold and
securely self custody their own Bitcoin.
And I'm proud to announce that in the last seven years we
haven't lost a single Satoshi helping clients do this.
So it's a record I'm very proud of and.
I would like to see all coins come off the exchange so we can
see some real price action, price discovery.
So that's it for me. Brilliant.
Thanks so much and keep in touch.
Brad, love to. Thanks man.
Cheers. I hope you enjoyed this episode.
If you did, it would be amazing if you could rate, review and
subscribe on the podcast platform of your choice.
It will help us educate more millennials on the importance of
Bitcoin. You can follow and connect with
me on Twitter. I'm Bramk.
That's at Bramk, and if you are or know someone who has an
interesting perspective on Bitcoin that's worth sharing,
hit me up. I read and reply to every single
message. I appreciate your support and
hope you'll be here for the next episode.
Thanks for listening. Bye.