1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:02,720 In the basement of the US Justice Department, there's a 2 00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:05,960 file called Fanu Lenu. First name unknown. 3 00:00:06,120 --> 00:00:08,800 Last name unknown. It's the official government 4 00:00:08,800 --> 00:00:10,800 investigation into the. Creator. 5 00:00:10,800 --> 00:00:13,600 Of Bitcoin. In this episode, Hollywood 6 00:00:13,600 --> 00:00:16,400 producer Tucker Thule and veteran private investigator 7 00:00:16,640 --> 00:00:19,760 Tyler Maroney joined me to talk about their four year quest to 8 00:00:19,760 --> 00:00:21,680 finish what the government couldn't. 9 00:00:21,920 --> 00:00:24,840 We'll discuss their journey, the smoking gun clues that they 10 00:00:24,840 --> 00:00:28,920 found, the suspects they ruled out and the reality of unmasking 11 00:00:28,920 --> 00:00:32,520 alleged and take around as we also explore the one thing that 12 00:00:32,520 --> 00:00:36,560 matters even more than a name. I think the film that Tucker and 13 00:00:36,560 --> 00:00:40,560 Tyler made doesn't feel like a hunt, but rather like a tribute 14 00:00:40,560 --> 00:00:43,280 to Bitcoin as a gift given to the world. 15 00:00:43,520 --> 00:00:46,000 If you are enjoying my content, it would mean a lot to me if you 16 00:00:46,000 --> 00:00:49,200 could subscribe to the channel and like my video to support my 17 00:00:49,200 --> 00:00:50,520 journey. Thanks a lot. 18 00:00:50,640 --> 00:00:52,960 Now let's dive in to this episode. 19 00:00:56,680 --> 00:00:59,640 All right, Tucker Thule and Tyler Maroney, welcome to 20 00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:01,480 Bitcoin for Millennials. Thank you. 21 00:01:02,120 --> 00:01:03,400 Thank you. Happy to be here. 22 00:01:04,160 --> 00:01:05,960 Yeah, nice to have you guys here, Tucker. 23 00:01:05,960 --> 00:01:10,760 We met exactly on this day of recording one year ago in in 24 00:01:10,760 --> 00:01:12,560 Vegas. I don't know how we got 25 00:01:12,560 --> 00:01:17,880 connected, but we, we ended up talking about this film that you 26 00:01:17,880 --> 00:01:22,320 were making and it was almost coming out for. 27 00:01:22,360 --> 00:01:25,920 I remember when we talked last year and it, it took, it took a 28 00:01:25,920 --> 00:01:30,440 little longer, but along the way you sent me a preview of finding 29 00:01:30,440 --> 00:01:35,120 Satoshi And I, I remember finishing this documentary at 30 00:01:35,120 --> 00:01:39,560 like 11 AM in the, in the, in the morning and I, and I called 31 00:01:39,560 --> 00:01:43,480 you to, to, to tell you that, that I, I loved it. 32 00:01:43,480 --> 00:01:47,520 And I think I know there's a lot of ideas around who Satoshi, 33 00:01:47,520 --> 00:01:49,160 there's a lot of searches, right? 34 00:01:49,160 --> 00:01:51,200 There's a lot of publications around it, etcetera. 35 00:01:51,200 --> 00:01:53,760 But, and we'll talk about this. I, I, I think this is also a 36 00:01:53,760 --> 00:01:57,280 really great tribute to what Bitcoin is, right? 37 00:01:57,280 --> 00:02:00,800 And kind of like the ethos behind it. 38 00:02:00,800 --> 00:02:03,560 So I'm, I'm happy to have you guys here. 39 00:02:03,560 --> 00:02:05,960 I first kind of wanted to start, Tucker, I mean, you, you 40 00:02:05,960 --> 00:02:08,919 produced a lot of Hollywood films, kind of like in this 41 00:02:08,919 --> 00:02:13,920 traditional system, right? And for this film, you decided 42 00:02:13,920 --> 00:02:17,080 to be more like self distributed, you partnered with 43 00:02:17,080 --> 00:02:22,400 Coin Base did did looking into Bitcoin and the decentralization 44 00:02:22,400 --> 00:02:24,920 et cetera kind of like change your view on on your own 45 00:02:24,920 --> 00:02:26,520 industry can share a bit about that? 46 00:02:27,200 --> 00:02:28,920 Well, it certainly did on this film. 47 00:02:29,080 --> 00:02:35,080 And from the beginning we were having debates initially, but I 48 00:02:35,080 --> 00:02:37,880 think those quickly turned into we've, we've formed a pretty 49 00:02:37,880 --> 00:02:42,280 definitive opinion, opinion that we wanted to honor the structure 50 00:02:42,280 --> 00:02:46,200 of Bitcoin, right? So no, no one in between person 51 00:02:46,200 --> 00:02:50,600 A and person B. And this idea of, of being able 52 00:02:50,600 --> 00:02:53,640 to get the film direct to the consumer from the people who 53 00:02:53,640 --> 00:02:56,520 made the film without someone in between and, you know, a big 54 00:02:56,800 --> 00:03:01,080 company, you know, studio, whatever, felt just more organic 55 00:03:01,080 --> 00:03:04,840 to the story we were telling. And we're really happy that we 56 00:03:04,960 --> 00:03:09,800 we did it. And Tyler, you are a experienced 57 00:03:09,800 --> 00:03:12,320 private investigator, you usually look for people who 58 00:03:12,320 --> 00:03:14,280 don't want to be found for for a lot of. 59 00:03:14,280 --> 00:03:17,880 Bad reasons, right? How did it feel for you 60 00:03:17,880 --> 00:03:21,600 investigating someone who's more like like a ghost, but kind of 61 00:03:21,600 --> 00:03:24,480 seen as a, as a hero globally by a lot of people? 62 00:03:24,480 --> 00:03:25,760 Like it's a it's a different angle. 63 00:03:25,760 --> 00:03:28,320 Eyes I I presume? Yeah. 64 00:03:29,040 --> 00:03:35,040 You know, it's a great, it's a compliment to us when clients 65 00:03:35,040 --> 00:03:37,400 come and they say, look, we've been trying to achieve this 66 00:03:37,400 --> 00:03:41,520 thing, whatever it is, recover stolen money or find a missing 67 00:03:41,520 --> 00:03:44,160 person. And we've hired lawyers and 68 00:03:44,160 --> 00:03:46,400 we've, you know, done everything we could ourselves. 69 00:03:46,400 --> 00:03:48,840 And we've kind of gotten to the end of that road and we don't 70 00:03:48,840 --> 00:03:51,960 know what else to do. So what can you bring to it 71 00:03:51,960 --> 00:03:56,320 that's new? And that's kind of what happened 72 00:03:56,320 --> 00:03:58,040 in this case. I mean, Tucker had this real 73 00:03:58,040 --> 00:04:02,160 fascination with this mystery that many of us didn't realize 74 00:04:02,160 --> 00:04:06,280 how how kind of profound and, and, and, and ongoing it was. 75 00:04:06,800 --> 00:04:09,400 I mean, unless you're really well versed in the Satoshi 76 00:04:09,560 --> 00:04:13,360 mythology and the history of Bitcoin, you don't really know 77 00:04:14,640 --> 00:04:19,560 how well Satoshi did, you know, hiding his identity. 78 00:04:19,959 --> 00:04:23,200 And it's such an achievement in this day and age, the digital 79 00:04:23,200 --> 00:04:26,280 world that we live in. So in that sense, it was a real 80 00:04:26,280 --> 00:04:30,080 opportunity to do the kind of investigation we've never really 81 00:04:30,080 --> 00:04:34,280 done before. So, Tucker, where did your 82 00:04:34,280 --> 00:04:39,880 fascination come from? In 2020 when COVID hit and we 83 00:04:39,880 --> 00:04:42,440 all had to go home and lock our front doors and clean our 84 00:04:42,440 --> 00:04:46,360 packages, I was in pre production on a film. 85 00:04:46,480 --> 00:04:49,960 We had to shut down and come back home, and I'd been 86 00:04:49,960 --> 00:04:55,400 interested in Satoshi, but in honestly looking for something 87 00:04:55,400 --> 00:04:59,120 to focus on that I didn't require traveling to some exotic 88 00:04:59,120 --> 00:05:02,800 place to shoot something. I thought there might be an 89 00:05:02,800 --> 00:05:05,840 interesting story there. I knew that a lot of people had 90 00:05:05,840 --> 00:05:09,520 done great research before us, so I really just dove in and 91 00:05:09,520 --> 00:05:13,480 started reading everything I could about Satoshi from that 92 00:05:13,480 --> 00:05:17,520 point on and pretty quickly figured out, well, no one really 93 00:05:17,520 --> 00:05:20,920 has a definitive answer. And in my estimation, this is 94 00:05:20,920 --> 00:05:23,160 the single biggest financial mystery of all time. 95 00:05:23,720 --> 00:05:28,200 Satoshi, you know, today is the Satoshi wallet at least is, you 96 00:05:28,200 --> 00:05:30,920 know, has a very significant amount of wealth, somewhere 97 00:05:30,920 --> 00:05:34,600 between I think 80 billion and 120 billion, depending on the 98 00:05:34,600 --> 00:05:37,560 price of Bitcoin. In the last sort of six months, 99 00:05:37,560 --> 00:05:42,320 that's been the vacillation. So having some entity have or 100 00:05:42,320 --> 00:05:45,800 person have that amount of money, never sell it, never move 101 00:05:45,800 --> 00:05:49,160 it, you know, is a fascinating thing. 102 00:05:49,160 --> 00:05:54,000 And and as our partner on this film, Bill Cohan likes to say, 103 00:05:54,000 --> 00:05:57,400 it's not human nature to have that kind of wealth and never 104 00:05:57,400 --> 00:05:59,680 touch it. So that that just sets up a 105 00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:01,720 mystery. And I'm a storyteller and, and I 106 00:06:01,720 --> 00:06:05,480 love to to to try to solve mysteries or to try to tell 107 00:06:05,480 --> 00:06:07,920 stories about mysteries, especially when they're very 108 00:06:07,920 --> 00:06:11,400 complex and involved, you know, a lot of different people. 109 00:06:11,920 --> 00:06:15,600 But pretty quickly we figured out that this was not just a 110 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:18,600 mystery, but a human story, a story about human beings. 111 00:06:19,040 --> 00:06:21,040 And I think that's what different differentiates the 112 00:06:21,040 --> 00:06:24,720 film potentially from other films about this. 113 00:06:25,120 --> 00:06:29,000 We're not, it's not some opaque, you know, person in a mass. 114 00:06:29,000 --> 00:06:31,320 This was a human being. These were human beings. 115 00:06:31,680 --> 00:06:36,920 And when Tyler came on board, we really dove in to figure out not 116 00:06:36,920 --> 00:06:40,840 just, you know, where the story starts in terms of Satoshi, but 117 00:06:40,840 --> 00:06:44,840 all of the events that led up to the creation of Bitcoin and 118 00:06:45,160 --> 00:06:48,120 probably gave Satoshi the motivation to do what Satoshi 119 00:06:48,120 --> 00:06:49,360 did. Yeah. 120 00:06:49,840 --> 00:06:52,680 So did you guys have any suspicions when you started? 121 00:06:52,680 --> 00:06:55,720 I think, Tucker, you probably more than Tyler, like Tyler did. 122 00:06:55,720 --> 00:07:00,000 Did you start from just from scratch and did that help? 123 00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:03,400 Like how how is, I mean, like in the Bitcoin community, they have 124 00:07:03,400 --> 00:07:05,640 all these different ideas around it, right. 125 00:07:05,640 --> 00:07:09,200 And we'll and we'll get to like some people don't don't like the 126 00:07:09,440 --> 00:07:12,360 kind of attempt at doxing Satoshi, for example. 127 00:07:12,360 --> 00:07:15,520 And yeah, like how how did you start? 128 00:07:15,520 --> 00:07:19,280 Did you know anything about Bitcoin or had you ever read 129 00:07:19,360 --> 00:07:23,360 anything about Satoshi? A little bit, I mean, that was 130 00:07:23,360 --> 00:07:27,160 the first thing that we did, you know, picking up on, on what 131 00:07:27,160 --> 00:07:30,120 Tucker had done is we made an effort to basically read 132 00:07:30,120 --> 00:07:33,800 everything that we could find. Every Medium post, every Reddit, 133 00:07:33,960 --> 00:07:37,640 every subreddit, every news article to kind of figure out 134 00:07:37,640 --> 00:07:40,720 what had been done already. You know, when we came across, 135 00:07:41,200 --> 00:07:43,760 you know, all of the candidates that had been floated before, 136 00:07:43,760 --> 00:07:49,040 whether it's Hal Finney or Steve Jobs, whether it's Elon Musk or 137 00:07:50,040 --> 00:07:52,080 or Nick Zabo, right? And these are names that have 138 00:07:52,080 --> 00:07:53,800 been floated out there for many years. 139 00:07:54,560 --> 00:07:56,480 And so we took all of the candidates. 140 00:07:56,480 --> 00:07:58,840 There might have been 15 or 20 that we had at least. 141 00:07:58,840 --> 00:08:02,680 And then we said, OK, let's put them over to the side and let's 142 00:08:02,680 --> 00:08:05,560 start again from scratch. Because what we'd never want to 143 00:08:05,560 --> 00:08:10,360 do is begin with a hunch or a conspiracy theory, because if 144 00:08:10,360 --> 00:08:13,560 you do that, you're already kind of putting blinders on like from 145 00:08:13,560 --> 00:08:18,080 an investigative methodology. And so we, we put those to the 146 00:08:18,080 --> 00:08:20,680 side and then we, we, we went out into the world. 147 00:08:20,680 --> 00:08:23,000 Actually, one of the first things we did brand is we, we 148 00:08:23,000 --> 00:08:26,360 started interviewing all of these cryptographers, you know, 149 00:08:26,360 --> 00:08:29,760 computer scientists who build these privacy and security 150 00:08:29,760 --> 00:08:32,320 systems, right? These are the men and women 151 00:08:32,320 --> 00:08:36,080 who've written software over the last 2530 years to allow us to 152 00:08:36,080 --> 00:08:38,799 send emails to each other. So no one can hack into our 153 00:08:38,799 --> 00:08:43,400 emails or to send a financial transaction, a wire, for 154 00:08:43,400 --> 00:08:45,440 instance, so that no one else can hack into that. 155 00:08:45,840 --> 00:08:48,080 And these are the people who built these systems. 156 00:08:48,080 --> 00:08:51,360 And we suspected and knew that Satoshi came out of this world 157 00:08:52,560 --> 00:08:54,160 in the 90s. There was this group of people, 158 00:08:54,160 --> 00:08:57,680 as you know, well called the cypherpunks, which were 159 00:08:57,680 --> 00:09:02,000 essentially kind of, you know, nerdy mathematicians. 160 00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:07,160 But they had this idea that they could use technology to try to 161 00:09:07,160 --> 00:09:10,080 create some kind of protection for the rest of us, like as 162 00:09:10,080 --> 00:09:12,360 corporate power and government power was increasing. 163 00:09:14,160 --> 00:09:18,240 And so back to your question about candidates for who we 164 00:09:18,240 --> 00:09:21,320 thought Satoshi would be. I started asking people in this 165 00:09:21,320 --> 00:09:25,400 community kind of very open mindedly, like, you know, when 166 00:09:25,400 --> 00:09:28,320 you talk amongst yourselves, I would say like, what are the 167 00:09:28,320 --> 00:09:33,200 names that float to the surface? And genuinely wanting to know 168 00:09:33,200 --> 00:09:36,040 what they thought, not not giving them the names of people 169 00:09:36,040 --> 00:09:39,520 that we'd already considered. And that was a very valuable 170 00:09:39,520 --> 00:09:43,200 exercise because they started naming people who were 171 00:09:43,200 --> 00:09:48,360 fascinating in that they had been curious about digital 172 00:09:48,360 --> 00:09:52,640 payment systems and various kinds of electronic cash going 173 00:09:52,640 --> 00:09:56,480 all the way back to the 1980s and 1990s, which basically 174 00:09:56,480 --> 00:09:59,160 taught us, oh, this is a history project, so we need to 175 00:09:59,160 --> 00:10:01,960 understand the history so that we understand where we are 176 00:10:01,960 --> 00:10:06,400 today. If your Bitcoin double tomorrow, 177 00:10:06,400 --> 00:10:09,000 would you feel good about how it's secured right now? 178 00:10:09,280 --> 00:10:11,280 Most people haven't really pressure tested that. 179 00:10:11,280 --> 00:10:13,520 And I get it. Some people are comfortable 180 00:10:13,520 --> 00:10:16,960 taking full control of their own keys, but others want security 181 00:10:16,960 --> 00:10:19,040 without having to manage it all themselves. 182 00:10:19,240 --> 00:10:22,720 That's why I partnered with Onrep Multi institution Custody, 183 00:10:22,720 --> 00:10:25,560 where your keys are held across independent institutions in 184 00:10:25,560 --> 00:10:28,840 multiple jurisdictions. No single company can access, 185 00:10:28,840 --> 00:10:31,720 move or lose your Bitcoin. Lloyd's of London insured 186 00:10:31,880 --> 00:10:34,520 inheritance planning built in and a team that walks you 187 00:10:34,520 --> 00:10:37,600 through the entire setup. They serve clients globally, 188 00:10:37,600 --> 00:10:40,200 whether you're in the US, Europe, or anywhere else. 189 00:10:40,400 --> 00:10:44,240 Book a free consultation at onlinebitcoin.com/prom to learn 190 00:10:44,240 --> 00:10:47,160 more. That's onlinebitcoin.com/prom. 191 00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:52,440 Most people stop too early with Bitcoin. 192 00:10:52,600 --> 00:10:55,760 They buy it, maybe move it to a wallet, and think they are done, 193 00:10:56,080 --> 00:10:58,320 but they're not. The real questions are how 194 00:10:58,320 --> 00:11:00,920 you're securing it, how private your setup is, and whether 195 00:11:00,920 --> 00:11:03,560 you're verifying your own transactions or trusting someone 196 00:11:03,560 --> 00:11:05,640 else. And what happens to your Bitcoin 197 00:11:05,640 --> 00:11:08,880 when something happens to you. This is the layer that most 198 00:11:08,880 --> 00:11:11,280 people ignore, and it's the most important one. 199 00:11:11,600 --> 00:11:14,600 That's why I've been working with the Bitcoin way to help you 200 00:11:14,680 --> 00:11:17,440 set up self custody properly, including privacy, 201 00:11:17,440 --> 00:11:20,920 cybersecurity, inheritance, and even running your own note. 202 00:11:21,160 --> 00:11:24,000 And they do it without ever touching your Bitcoin. 203 00:11:24,240 --> 00:11:26,680 They're not a custodian, they're your support team. 204 00:11:26,880 --> 00:11:29,040 If you're serious about this like I am, go to 205 00:11:29,040 --> 00:11:33,360 thebitcoinway.com/brum. That's Bram to book a free call. 206 00:11:33,560 --> 00:11:36,280 They'll walk you through your setup, personalize everything to 207 00:11:36,280 --> 00:11:39,600 you, and help you get a much stronger position very quickly, 208 00:11:39,760 --> 00:11:41,800 whether you're a beginner or more advanced. 209 00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:45,960 That's the bitcoinway.com/brum. Yeah, it's really interesting if 210 00:11:45,960 --> 00:11:49,720 if you look at also like the technologies used and, and all 211 00:11:49,720 --> 00:11:52,520 the research before you could say that Bitcoin is kind of like 212 00:11:52,520 --> 00:11:57,040 this culmination of even even like 70 years of computer 213 00:11:57,040 --> 00:12:00,720 science type research, right. Where, you know, the cypherpunks 214 00:12:00,720 --> 00:12:06,160 that you that you reference were I think really at the 1st that 215 00:12:06,160 --> 00:12:10,000 we're at the point of trying to apply the actual knowledge into, 216 00:12:10,320 --> 00:12:13,560 you know, practical products or examples. 217 00:12:13,560 --> 00:12:17,400 There's this famous example of the the the printing of the 218 00:12:17,400 --> 00:12:19,760 T-shirts from the PGP team, right? 219 00:12:19,760 --> 00:12:22,080 And that they travel and that they get into the bunch of 220 00:12:22,080 --> 00:12:23,840 trouble. And actually later, I don't know 221 00:12:23,840 --> 00:12:26,520 if that's also in the documentary where Phil Zimmerman 222 00:12:27,600 --> 00:12:34,320 PGP, he talks about that Hal Finney was actually, I think the 223 00:12:34,520 --> 00:12:38,920 the person that had that idea or whatever, right? 224 00:12:38,920 --> 00:12:41,080 And it Phil Zimmerman took the blame for him or something like 225 00:12:41,080 --> 00:12:43,800 something like like that. But I always thought it was just 226 00:12:43,800 --> 00:12:48,240 interesting to see that these ideas were kind of like old, but 227 00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:52,000 they're still relevant today or like even even more relevant 228 00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:54,960 today than than let's say 40 years ago, right? 229 00:12:54,960 --> 00:12:58,320 And so I, I think there's an interesting tension here where 230 00:12:58,400 --> 00:13:01,240 where there's a lot of people that are obviously very focused 231 00:13:01,240 --> 00:13:04,200 on privacy, right? And, and you guys entered a, a 232 00:13:04,200 --> 00:13:07,240 community, I think, where doxing is kind of like the, the 233 00:13:07,240 --> 00:13:10,920 ultimate sin. And so like early on, like, like 234 00:13:10,920 --> 00:13:13,080 you just shared, Tyler, when, when you guys went out there, 235 00:13:13,080 --> 00:13:16,960 did you feel like you were being treated as outsiders to kind of 236 00:13:16,960 --> 00:13:21,800 like ruin, ruin the magic or, or more like journalists and, and, 237 00:13:21,800 --> 00:13:24,520 and people actually genuinely interested, you know, like 238 00:13:24,520 --> 00:13:27,840 Tucker, like you shared how you know your history before kind of 239 00:13:27,840 --> 00:13:30,680 like trying to find the truth, like, was there any hostility 240 00:13:30,680 --> 00:13:35,800 trying to build this distrust? There wasn't as much hostility, 241 00:13:35,800 --> 00:13:38,640 to be honest, as as we expected. And I think part of that is, you 242 00:13:38,640 --> 00:13:41,080 know, again, I was taking Tucker's lead on. 243 00:13:42,200 --> 00:13:45,200 We really wanted to go out into the world with a genuine 244 00:13:45,200 --> 00:13:47,080 curiosity about what we were trying to learn. 245 00:13:47,080 --> 00:13:50,840 And one of the first things I did actually is I, I called up 246 00:13:51,560 --> 00:13:54,080 maybe the most famous cryptographer in history, whose 247 00:13:54,080 --> 00:13:58,520 name is Wit Diffie, who Tucker knew all about by the way, to 248 00:13:58,520 --> 00:14:03,480 give, to give him credit. And I, I said, hey, Wit, by the 249 00:14:03,480 --> 00:14:05,920 way, Wit Diffie, for those who don't know, is most famous for 250 00:14:06,240 --> 00:14:11,320 Co creating public key cryptography in the early 1970s. 251 00:14:11,320 --> 00:14:15,680 And this is used by RSA and then by PGP and then Bitcoin and 252 00:14:15,680 --> 00:14:19,040 countless other technologies to give us the protection in the 253 00:14:19,040 --> 00:14:22,320 digital sphere that we have to this day, 2 generations later. 254 00:14:22,880 --> 00:14:24,920 And I said, Rick, can I take you out for lunch? 255 00:14:24,920 --> 00:14:29,480 And he and I had like a four hour lunch in Silicon Valley, in 256 00:14:29,480 --> 00:14:32,600 Palo Alto. And at the end of that meeting, 257 00:14:32,600 --> 00:14:35,280 he said, you know what, you should come with me to the 258 00:14:35,280 --> 00:14:38,640 crypto conference in Santa Barbara, which is a cryptography 259 00:14:38,640 --> 00:14:41,480 conference that's been happening since the 1980s. 260 00:14:42,440 --> 00:14:46,840 You can basically be my date. And so I went with with with 261 00:14:46,840 --> 00:14:50,160 Whit Diffie to this conference. And it's like I said this to 262 00:14:50,160 --> 00:14:52,640 Tucker once before, it's like going to the Oscars with Robert 263 00:14:52,640 --> 00:14:54,680 Redford. It's like this legendary guy 264 00:14:55,160 --> 00:14:57,440 who's like introducing me around to people. 265 00:14:57,440 --> 00:15:00,280 And and I realized he was doing that because he believed in the 266 00:15:00,280 --> 00:15:06,040 mission and he felt that we were taking a very cautious approach 267 00:15:06,040 --> 00:15:08,920 to this, not trying to unmask or dox anybody at all. 268 00:15:09,400 --> 00:15:12,800 And getting wit to to literally like interrupt people in the 269 00:15:12,800 --> 00:15:16,280 middle of conversations and introduce me to people was 270 00:15:16,280 --> 00:15:19,200 really a wonderful way to get, you know, an introduction into 271 00:15:19,200 --> 00:15:22,440 that world. Yeah, yeah, Tucker for you, I 272 00:15:22,440 --> 00:15:26,080 think you said, you know, you're a storyteller and I think, you 273 00:15:26,080 --> 00:15:30,000 know, I I'm deep in in Bitcoin maxi Twitter, right. 274 00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:33,280 So, and I've been kind of like teasing the film I'm sharing 275 00:15:33,280 --> 00:15:36,520 like I, you know, with people like, I, I think you will like, 276 00:15:38,320 --> 00:15:42,000 you know, how it's portrayed, what the, what the conclusion 277 00:15:42,000 --> 00:15:45,640 is, etcetera, right? And now, now that it's out, I've 278 00:15:45,640 --> 00:15:49,880 seen people comment like, you know, this film is rehashing 279 00:15:49,880 --> 00:15:53,240 whatever we talked about in forums like 7 years ago or 280 00:15:53,240 --> 00:15:56,520 whatever. But like, how, how do you, you 281 00:15:56,520 --> 00:15:59,080 know, that is obviously a way smaller group of people. 282 00:15:59,080 --> 00:16:00,320 That's kind of where I want to get to. 283 00:16:00,320 --> 00:16:08,440 Like I, I, I feel that you play a different role in this just a 284 00:16:08,440 --> 00:16:11,600 Bitcoin story, this part of the, of the, of the Bitcoin story. 285 00:16:11,600 --> 00:16:14,840 So, so yeah, the kind of like how, how do you see that where 286 00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:19,920 you know, this, this could all stay obscure in some Internet 287 00:16:19,920 --> 00:16:23,800 forums or some, some deep, you know, little groups that go very 288 00:16:23,800 --> 00:16:27,320 deep, right? Or you can create a certain form 289 00:16:27,320 --> 00:16:29,640 of a medium and then share it with a bigger audience. 290 00:16:29,640 --> 00:16:32,640 Like could you maybe share a bit about how how you experienced 291 00:16:32,640 --> 00:16:36,800 that, I want to say tension or maybe also kind of share about 292 00:16:36,800 --> 00:16:40,160 how you view the medium of creating a documentary like this 293 00:16:40,160 --> 00:16:42,400 where? It's a really good. 294 00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:45,200 It's like a culmination of the of the information, right? 295 00:16:45,200 --> 00:16:49,160 Like, you don't have to be an Internet sleuth to to to to get 296 00:16:49,160 --> 00:16:52,480 a sense of who Satoshi could be. That's right. 297 00:16:52,480 --> 00:16:57,400 And, and I think The Who is certainly important, The Who is 298 00:16:57,400 --> 00:17:02,320 Satoshi, but the how and why is also really, really, really 299 00:17:02,320 --> 00:17:03,960 important. And when we started this movie, 300 00:17:03,960 --> 00:17:06,240 we wanted to encompass all of that, right? 301 00:17:06,240 --> 00:17:10,880 So what were the conditions in the world that led to this need 302 00:17:10,880 --> 00:17:12,599 for privacy? What were the conditions in the 303 00:17:12,599 --> 00:17:18,040 world that that led to this sort of notion that I shouldn't have 304 00:17:18,040 --> 00:17:21,440 to be subject to putting up, you know, something of value through 305 00:17:21,440 --> 00:17:25,640 an institution that I have no trust in a relationship with? 306 00:17:25,839 --> 00:17:28,680 So they can then go pass that on to somebody else and take fees 307 00:17:28,680 --> 00:17:31,400 in the middle. You know, this, this libertarian 308 00:17:31,400 --> 00:17:37,640 leaning idea that we should all be, you know, have privacy. 309 00:17:37,640 --> 00:17:41,040 We should all be, have the ability to, to if I wanted to 310 00:17:41,040 --> 00:17:44,280 send you Bram some money today, I should have the ability to do 311 00:17:44,280 --> 00:17:48,080 that without interference. And so that the how and the 312 00:17:48,080 --> 00:17:52,320 events that leading up to that, that led up to this creation and 313 00:17:52,320 --> 00:17:55,400 multiple creations that preceded it were equally as important. 314 00:17:55,400 --> 00:18:00,840 But I think at the end of it, we wanted to put to put what we 315 00:18:00,840 --> 00:18:04,280 thought was the answer forward, but we also wanted to tell the 316 00:18:04,280 --> 00:18:08,040 story of the people. It's a human story at the end of 317 00:18:08,040 --> 00:18:09,840 the day. Satoshi isn't some, you know, 318 00:18:10,280 --> 00:18:14,280 crazy figure somewhere, human being with family, with 319 00:18:14,280 --> 00:18:16,840 ambition, with problems like we all have. 320 00:18:17,160 --> 00:18:19,760 That's what's relatable and storytelling is when you can 321 00:18:19,760 --> 00:18:23,000 connect to the humans in the story and the reasons that they 322 00:18:23,000 --> 00:18:25,880 do what they do and their brilliance and their creativity 323 00:18:25,880 --> 00:18:29,120 and the sadness and all of the emotional aspects of it. 324 00:18:29,120 --> 00:18:32,160 So that's not doxing. That's just understanding, 325 00:18:32,160 --> 00:18:35,240 that's context. We definitely went to great 326 00:18:35,240 --> 00:18:39,040 lengths to not have this come off as a, you know, we're going 327 00:18:39,040 --> 00:18:43,080 to, you know, rug pull somebody and, you know, surprise and you 328 00:18:43,080 --> 00:18:45,160 know, do some irresponsible reveal. 329 00:18:45,840 --> 00:18:50,680 We really wanted context to help us and I think context really 330 00:18:50,680 --> 00:18:54,840 helps in those situations when you understand, you know, why, 331 00:18:54,840 --> 00:18:57,760 how you know all of the ingredients that go into 332 00:18:57,760 --> 00:19:00,800 something like this. Additionally, I think in terms 333 00:19:00,800 --> 00:19:04,280 of appealing to a broader audience, we set out to not only 334 00:19:04,760 --> 00:19:08,720 solve the mystery, but to explain in a way that didn't 335 00:19:08,720 --> 00:19:12,480 feel like you were going to school why Bitcoin is good. 336 00:19:12,720 --> 00:19:16,360 You know why we think it's good, what the virtues of it are, how 337 00:19:16,360 --> 00:19:19,720 it came to be and how it works. Because in the movie business, 338 00:19:19,720 --> 00:19:22,640 if you can't pitch something in an elevator, you know it's it's, 339 00:19:22,640 --> 00:19:24,840 it's hard to sell that as a film. 340 00:19:25,160 --> 00:19:28,040 And as much as I knew about Bitcoin and as much as the 341 00:19:28,040 --> 00:19:31,200 people I was friends with knew about Bitcoin, when you sat down 342 00:19:31,200 --> 00:19:35,960 to get an explanation of what Bitcoin was, it was like a 2535 343 00:19:35,960 --> 00:19:38,080 minute explanation that went on to the next day. 344 00:19:38,240 --> 00:19:40,680 I forgot about it does this right. 345 00:19:41,080 --> 00:19:46,680 And so we wanted to simplify that accurately and make it 346 00:19:46,680 --> 00:19:50,400 entertaining to people. And so I think the, the big part 347 00:19:50,400 --> 00:19:53,160 of the movie that is overlooked when your movie is called 348 00:19:53,160 --> 00:19:57,720 Finding Satoshi is, you know, the explaining what Bitcoin part 349 00:19:57,720 --> 00:20:00,560 is, the explaining what the blockchain is, the explaining 350 00:20:00,880 --> 00:20:03,400 about privacy. So these are all things that I 351 00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:07,280 think are infinitely interesting and I think important in the 352 00:20:07,280 --> 00:20:10,160 world and important if you want to, if you're interested in 353 00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:13,360 finance, if you're interested in in in the economy, if you're 354 00:20:13,360 --> 00:20:16,760 interested in how money works. So I think we, we do a good job 355 00:20:16,760 --> 00:20:20,320 and you know, I hope, I hope people appreciate it of 356 00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:23,360 explaining that and sort of deconstructing all that in a way 357 00:20:23,360 --> 00:20:25,240 that very relatable and understandable. 358 00:20:25,720 --> 00:20:31,120 Yeah, now this is exactly why I thought it, it was valuable, 359 00:20:31,120 --> 00:20:32,960 right? As compared to this, For 360 00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:35,760 example, last week or two weeks ago, there was this New York 361 00:20:35,760 --> 00:20:41,920 Times article took calling Adam Beck Satoshi with extremely 362 00:20:42,720 --> 00:20:46,120 simplistic reasoning. I that's that's a nice way to 363 00:20:46,120 --> 00:20:48,160 say it, I think. And also, again, I think 364 00:20:48,160 --> 00:20:51,120 rehashing stuff that has been debunked way before, right? 365 00:20:51,120 --> 00:20:55,000 And it kind of shows that that it's it's just for the clicks, 366 00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:58,760 you know, like, oh, this is this this mysterious person sitting 367 00:20:58,760 --> 00:21:01,120 on 100 billion and whatever. Like, where are they? 368 00:21:01,520 --> 00:21:05,840 You know, something, something, it's this guy that doesn't 369 00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:09,760 really show, I think respect for, for the kind of gift that 370 00:21:09,760 --> 00:21:13,560 that Bitcoin is to the world. And I personally think that is 371 00:21:13,560 --> 00:21:16,720 that is very important. And, and also, I, I think kind 372 00:21:16,720 --> 00:21:19,840 of shows also the difference between, you know, honest 373 00:21:19,840 --> 00:21:23,680 interest in the actual subject or trying to, to get clicks for, 374 00:21:23,680 --> 00:21:25,640 for the ads on the on the website, right. 375 00:21:25,640 --> 00:21:28,840 And so that's, that's really also why, why I thought it was, 376 00:21:28,920 --> 00:21:30,880 was valuable. There's, there's a moment in 377 00:21:30,880 --> 00:21:34,040 the, in the film that I thought it was really interesting. 378 00:21:34,040 --> 00:21:37,200 I learned a new term. How did what did you say? 379 00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:39,000 First name unknown. Last name unknown a. 380 00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:42,840 New Lenu first name a new a new Lanu. 381 00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:46,560 Yeah, so you're sitting with a Justice Department official and 382 00:21:46,560 --> 00:21:49,200 and they mentioned this this Satoshi file, right? 383 00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:50,680 With with this first name unknown. 384 00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:55,960 Yeah, We were sitting with Katie Hahn, who was in the Justice 385 00:21:55,960 --> 00:21:59,000 Department during the Obama administration. 386 00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:02,560 She's a prosecutor during the Obama administration. 387 00:22:02,920 --> 00:22:06,640 And she was tasked with looking into what is Bitcoin, what is 388 00:22:06,640 --> 00:22:08,960 this? And she was explaining that 389 00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:14,360 there is a file that exists that the title of it is Fanu Lenu, 390 00:22:14,360 --> 00:22:17,640 and it's not John Lenu or or Fanu Smith. 391 00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:20,160 It's first name unknown, last name unknown. 392 00:22:20,480 --> 00:22:23,160 And that is the investigation into Bitcoin. 393 00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:26,560 And we just found that fascinating that that, you know, 394 00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:29,120 that that's sort of, you know, something you would find in a 395 00:22:29,120 --> 00:22:32,080 detective's office and for an unsolved crime or something like 396 00:22:32,080 --> 00:22:34,480 that. And it's very relatable. 397 00:22:34,480 --> 00:22:39,640 And when you're in anybody who's, you know, delved into 398 00:22:39,640 --> 00:22:42,760 trying to figure out who Satoshi is starts at that same place. 399 00:22:42,760 --> 00:22:47,160 Like, you know, we know Satoshi is not Satoshi's real name, you 400 00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:50,000 know, so first name unknown, last name unknown is kind of the 401 00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:52,280 starting place of this investigation. 402 00:22:52,640 --> 00:22:57,240 And you know, where it leads you is, you know, and you referred 403 00:22:57,240 --> 00:22:59,800 to the New York Times article. I just want to say like, I think 404 00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:04,360 John's an incredible journalist and and reporter. 405 00:23:06,400 --> 00:23:09,600 There's a tendency and we we are guilty of it as well with this 406 00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:14,680 movie, to be overly optimistic about how long it will take you 407 00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:17,240 to do this. And we learned the hard way. 408 00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:19,800 And I certainly know this movie took twice the amount of time 409 00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:21,720 that I thought it would and twice the amount of money that I 410 00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:24,600 thought it would, because you can't force an answer. 411 00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:26,560 You have to come. You have to come upon it. 412 00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:29,080 And so if you have a deadline for, oh, I'm going to write this 413 00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:31,560 now, I'm not saying that John did, but I'm, if you have a 414 00:23:31,560 --> 00:23:33,680 deadline for I'm going to write this article on who Satoshi 415 00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:36,560 Nakamoto is, you better come up with the answer by the deadline. 416 00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:38,800 We got lucky. You know, there was a moment in 417 00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:41,480 time in the movie where we almost just stopped because we 418 00:23:41,520 --> 00:23:45,040 we were going down one road and we thought for sure that was the 419 00:23:45,040 --> 00:23:46,480 answer. And then we found out it 420 00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:49,560 couldn't be the answer and you had to start over. 421 00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:52,720 And that's a hard thing to do when you're spending money and 422 00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:57,880 time and, and, and so I have empathy for everybody who delves 423 00:23:57,880 --> 00:23:59,760 into this. It's a lot more difficult than 424 00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:04,360 it it appears at first. Yeah, I mean that that's also 425 00:24:04,360 --> 00:24:06,360 why it's so intriguing, I would say, right. 426 00:24:06,360 --> 00:24:10,880 So maybe Tyler, Tyler for you. So you talk to this Justice 427 00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:16,600 Department lady, right? And I, I, I assume she was 428 00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:21,040 tasked with looking into Bitcoin because it was used in, in Silk 429 00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:25,800 Road or just, you know, in, in some criminal endeavors, right? 430 00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:30,280 What, what was it like? Like talking to her and, and 431 00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:33,760 realizing that there was this first name, unknown last name on 432 00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:36,320 them there. There was an actual file on 433 00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:38,080 that. Well, you know, it was actually 434 00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:39,800 Bill Cohan who did that interview. 435 00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:41,960 Tucker, were you with him during that conversation? 436 00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:44,280 You were. But I think you're right, Brad, 437 00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:46,640 you make you bring an important point up, which is that she was 438 00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:51,000 investigating Bitcoin because it was in that period of Bitcoins 439 00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:54,920 evolution in history when when people heard the word Bitcoin, 440 00:24:54,920 --> 00:24:58,400 they probably thought criminal activity and fraud because all 441 00:24:58,400 --> 00:25:02,600 of the news stories back then were Silk Road or Silk Road 442 00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:05,960 related, right? Because bad guys were using it. 443 00:25:06,360 --> 00:25:09,960 And in some ways it was like the worst period in Bitcoin because 444 00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:14,360 like this was like bad PR for a company that had no PR agency. 445 00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:19,200 And so, you know, it's a natural thing for a law enforcement 446 00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:20,800 agency to kind of investigate it. 447 00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:26,360 We found it fascinating because not only she seemed to be saying 448 00:25:26,360 --> 00:25:30,960 to us, not only were we looking into people who are using 449 00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:34,040 Bitcoin, but we were looking into the origins of it itself. 450 00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:37,680 It's almost like saying who created cash, right? 451 00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:41,240 And what are we going to do with this new form of money and how 452 00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:44,880 is it used? I don't think we know to this 453 00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:47,720 day if they have the answer. My personal opinion is that they 454 00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:51,080 never got the answer, which makes you feel all all the more 455 00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:54,640 exciting that we that we have a really a good answer to that 456 00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:57,080 question. But I think that's an important 457 00:25:57,080 --> 00:25:59,240 part of the history of understanding of Bitcoin, that 458 00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:03,280 it did go through this phase of really negative publicity 459 00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:06,360 largely around the criminal activity that was swirling 460 00:26:06,360 --> 00:26:09,240 around it. Yeah, it's interesting, right, 461 00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:12,480 because I, I think in in Bitcoin, we say, you know, bit 462 00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:14,760 Bitcoin has the the protocol, right? 463 00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:19,000 It's basically the the invention of language or math or you know, 464 00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:22,000 like grammar or chess or it's just a set of rules. 465 00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:27,240 So there it also isn't really that much you can ban basically 466 00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:30,000 because conceptually this exists, right? 467 00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:31,960 And it cannot, cannot really die. 468 00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:35,920 You can create a, a different version of it, but then it's not 469 00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:39,960 like chess or like English grammar or like, or like math. 470 00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:45,400 And so there are many people that start very enthusiastically 471 00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:47,840 to figure this out, right. And, and I think they also run 472 00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:52,040 into this not only like the intellectual wall, but also 473 00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:56,280 this, I don't know, like the wall of humility or, or 474 00:26:56,280 --> 00:27:00,400 something like that. And they feel kind of imply to, 475 00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:04,600 to, to talk about it. And, and so for example, right, 476 00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:10,080 like you have now, of course, I, I don't again, like I saw a 477 00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:12,000 preview of the movie. So I don't know if it's in this 478 00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:13,760 version, right? But I assume you don't talk 479 00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:16,440 about the Epstein, Epstein stuff, right? 480 00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:18,960 Like people saying like, oh, this is Epstein. 481 00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:21,920 And like, like Epstein is talking about like I met Satoshi 482 00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:24,600 or like there's other people that communicate with him that 483 00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:27,200 say like, oh, I met Satoshi. And there's even this video of 484 00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:32,320 this special agent of, of, of Homeland Security that's like on 485 00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:35,280 video where she says, like I met with the four Satoshi's and 486 00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:38,880 stuff and stuff like that. Yeah. 487 00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:41,400 What do you guys think about that? 488 00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:44,400 Like does the government know more than they let on? 489 00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:49,240 You know, are there 4 Satoshi's and, and is that a thing or is 490 00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:50,360 it what you said? Tyler? 491 00:27:50,360 --> 00:27:53,480 You just think like it's, it's kind of a, it's kind of a dud. 492 00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:56,280 It's just people talking because it's, it's interesting. 493 00:27:57,560 --> 00:27:59,840 Yeah, I mean, my personal opinion, that's kind of a dud. 494 00:27:59,960 --> 00:28:04,400 We actually did ask the CIA and the NSA what they knew like, and 495 00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:07,480 we filed, you know, open records requests with the agencies. 496 00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:10,680 They still have not responded to our requests, which is kind of 497 00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:13,640 interesting. But one thing I'll add to your 498 00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:17,480 point about, you know, math is that another example in the in 499 00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:20,840 the history of all this is the story of Phil Zimmerman, who you 500 00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:24,080 mentioned who, who talked to us at length for our film. 501 00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:27,320 And the reason that his story is so interesting is that, you 502 00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:31,880 know, so Phil created PGP, which was the first truly encrypted 503 00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:34,720 e-mail system in the early 1990s. 504 00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:37,760 And one of the first things the government did, the State 505 00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:41,720 Department is they considered launching an investigation. 506 00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:43,920 And in fact, they did. And they considered arresting 507 00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:48,080 and indicting Phil and his staff because they felt that this 508 00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:52,040 encryption could be classified as ammunition. 509 00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:55,000 So it needed a license from the federal government because they 510 00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:58,080 worried that it was going to be used by terrorists and 511 00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:00,920 criminals. And eventually the case was 512 00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:03,160 dropped. And to the people who happened 513 00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:06,200 to have been working for him at that time were Hal Finney, who 514 00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:11,080 wrote almost all of the substantive code for that, and 515 00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:13,960 Len Sassman, who are two key people in our film. 516 00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:17,880 And the reason I tell that story is that that set the precedent, 517 00:29:18,520 --> 00:29:20,840 or that was part of a precedent of the government being 518 00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:26,600 skeptical of software, skeptical of coders who did something that 519 00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:30,480 was so innovative and so creative in very much the same 520 00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:34,400 way that Satoshi did. And so our understanding is that 521 00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:38,440 the people who worked at PGP saw what Phil went through and 522 00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:42,840 witnessed that attack by the government, which by the way, 523 00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:45,640 eventually it was great publicity for PGP in the long 524 00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:49,600 run because you can't, as John Callas, who is the Co founder of 525 00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:53,680 PGP said to us, you can't outlaw arithmetic or algebra, which is 526 00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:55,560 essentially what they are trying to do. 527 00:29:56,440 --> 00:29:58,720 And so here we are. 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You need cash, maybe a house 545 00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:56,040 deposit, an emergency or a tax bill. 546 00:30:56,040 --> 00:30:59,080 And you're staring at your stack thinking, do I really want to 547 00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:01,680 sell this? Here's the thing, you don't have 548 00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:03,000 to. You can borrow against your 549 00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:05,560 Bitcoin instead. So there's also no taxable event 550 00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:07,920 and your stack can keep on stacking. 551 00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:11,280 This is where Firefish comes in, a peer-to-peer marketplace for 552 00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:14,800 Bitcoin backed loans. And Firefish isn't a lender. 553 00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:17,720 They built the protocol that makes this all possible, which 554 00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:21,800 is exactly why they never ever have to touch your Bitcoin 555 00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:24,640 during your loan. Your Bitcoin sits in an on chain 556 00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:26,840 multi sick secured by open source code. 557 00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:29,600 You can easily create a loan request with your desired 558 00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:32,240 amount, duration and interest rate and share it on their 559 00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:36,200 marketplace at firefish dot IO. When you get matched and decide 560 00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:39,800 to accept a loan offer, you can use code Blum to get 30% of your 561 00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:43,440 first loans fees. That's firefish dot IO and code 562 00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:45,960 Blum. The the precedent was clearly 563 00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:50,640 set right and. This is what I alluded to 564 00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:53,480 earlier, this this part of where I think they printed books, 565 00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:54,600 right? And they travelled with the 566 00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:57,440 books and they printed the code on, on shirts and stuff like 567 00:31:57,440 --> 00:32:01,560 that to, to kind of like make a, make a joke of the ridiculous 568 00:32:01,560 --> 00:32:05,400 point that, you know, words are, are ammo basically. 569 00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:10,800 And I, I like that this is, this is a certain way of thinking, 570 00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:12,440 right? It's not only, it's, it's a 571 00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:19,080 certain way of thinking that comes from witnessing that you 572 00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:23,760 might end up creating just, you know, using language to 573 00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:30,840 eventually evade what turns out to be, you know, very intrusive 574 00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:34,240 actions by a government that should basically leave you 575 00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:37,160 alone, right? And so I love that idea or, or, 576 00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:41,400 or just the seed for that thinking, I think never, never 577 00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:44,840 dies. And and after PGPI think Bitcoin 578 00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:47,640 and, and like the torrents, of course, like before that, right? 579 00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:50,160 Which I think if you look at the branch of all the things that 580 00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:53,520 came together, you have these, this part, you know, PGP and and 581 00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:56,520 also the, the P2P torrents, etcetera that, you know, 582 00:32:56,520 --> 00:33:00,400 eventually helped also get to, to, to Bitcoin. 583 00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:03,840 So I think Bitcoin kind of feels like this masterpiece 584 00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:08,120 combination because if you can transfer value without any 585 00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:10,920 permission, right? Like that's, that's that's the 586 00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:17,480 ultimate kind of like This is why people call Bitcoin FU 587 00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:19,160 money, right? Like this is the ultimate FU 588 00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:22,400 basically against anyone who wants to to control you. 589 00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:26,680 So like that type of thinking, I think is just extremely 590 00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:28,960 interesting. And it's not a surprise that of 591 00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:31,360 course you're looking at that corner, right? 592 00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:34,960 So before we kind of go to the reveal of who you ended up with, 593 00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:37,800 I'd love to know. And then Tucker, you just 594 00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:40,680 mentioned, you know, there was one, one point or maybe multiple 595 00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:42,920 points where you kind of like wanted to, wanted to give up, 596 00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:45,800 give up. Was there a point where the the 597 00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:50,200 film project or or a case started to become an obsession 598 00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:52,600 more like did did you get to a point where you were like, OK, I 599 00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:55,600 need to, I need to know. I need to know this now? 600 00:33:56,920 --> 00:34:02,560 I mean, no, we were obsessed and highly interested in solving it 601 00:34:02,560 --> 00:34:07,520 and coming up with a concrete answer that said we wanted to 602 00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:10,880 find the right one. And we weren't comfortable, you 603 00:34:10,880 --> 00:34:13,360 know, putting out something that we didn't, we couldn't stand 604 00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:15,199 behind and that we didn't believe in. 605 00:34:15,639 --> 00:34:20,800 And so I think the temptation at that moment in time was what, 606 00:34:20,840 --> 00:34:23,600 you know, maybe we just stopped. Like maybe we just stopped 607 00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:27,360 because, you know, we were, we were definitively down a path 608 00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:31,239 and we were literally going into a phase of, OK, we're going to 609 00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:34,960 start finishing them. And, you know, that turned out 610 00:34:34,960 --> 00:34:38,679 to be really good luck for us. Meaning the movie is infinitely 611 00:34:38,679 --> 00:34:42,159 more interesting. We got a lot more great 612 00:34:42,159 --> 00:34:45,760 interviews that we would not have otherwise had in the film. 613 00:34:46,080 --> 00:34:49,520 And I think the answer is, is is right. 614 00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:53,679 So I so thank goodness for that. You just have to, you know, 615 00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:55,120 these things are expensive, right? 616 00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:58,320 So as you go, you're spending money and you don't know when 617 00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:00,960 that's going to stop. And so we had to, you know, try 618 00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:06,680 to be we we did it all on a, you know, as, as economically as we 619 00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:09,960 could. Tyler was flying, flying around 620 00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:11,720 the world and coach not in first class. 621 00:35:11,720 --> 00:35:16,840 And, and we were, you know, and, and we were sort of doing the 622 00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:20,520 best we could. The, the obsession came when, 623 00:35:20,520 --> 00:35:23,520 when you start to feel like there's a line that you can 624 00:35:23,520 --> 00:35:26,680 follow and you think you're on the right path, that's where the 625 00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:29,320 obsession really kicks in because because you can see the 626 00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:31,960 finish line and you're obsessed from from getting to where you 627 00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:34,160 are to there. And so I think that's, you know, 628 00:35:34,160 --> 00:35:37,080 that drove us through, I'll call it the second-half of this film. 629 00:35:38,280 --> 00:35:40,960 I think, I think there's a common critique that, you know, 630 00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:44,160 people that, that investigate Satoshi only kind of like look 631 00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:46,560 at the known suspects, right? I mean, Tyler, you just 632 00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:49,280 mentioned, right? We we just started reading being 633 00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:51,280 about what? What has everyone been saying, 634 00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:54,320 etcetera. Is there a version of the world 635 00:35:54,320 --> 00:35:57,280 where the real Satoshi is someone whose name has just 636 00:35:57,280 --> 00:36:02,000 never been mentioned, you think? Or is it just are the bread 637 00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:08,920 crumbs too too hot basically? I mean, my personal opinion is 638 00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:12,720 like, we, we, we got it right. Having said that, you know, we, 639 00:36:12,720 --> 00:36:16,520 we've never said things like case closed and this is a 640 00:36:16,520 --> 00:36:19,720 smoking gun. Like we're, our job was really 641 00:36:19,720 --> 00:36:23,040 to try to like gain insights into this world and to learn as 642 00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:27,560 much as we could and then to get the people in this world to talk 643 00:36:27,560 --> 00:36:31,360 to us, right? And so that's why we got, you 644 00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:35,040 know, the spouses and the best friends and the former 645 00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:39,160 colleagues to go on the record and be very honest and open and 646 00:36:39,160 --> 00:36:43,320 in some cases cry because they remembered these people with 647 00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:45,680 such dear feelings. But having said all that, like, 648 00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:47,920 there were plenty of suspects, by the way, remember, Tucker, we 649 00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:51,040 came up with the names of people who, you know, who had been 650 00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:55,640 interested in digital cash, were excellent coders in C++ and died 651 00:36:55,640 --> 00:36:59,480 in a car accident, like in 2012, right? 652 00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:02,200 Like, and there were that's just that's a that's a real example. 653 00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:06,160 And and many people like that who we said, OK, we need to keep 654 00:37:06,160 --> 00:37:07,680 these people up on the board, right. 655 00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:10,280 We have the red string. We got the whole detective thing 656 00:37:10,280 --> 00:37:13,280 going. And it wasn't until we really 657 00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:16,240 started getting traction with the people that we only landed 658 00:37:16,240 --> 00:37:18,440 on who I can talk about. As soon as Tucker gives me 659 00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:22,240 permission to say that, we started to feel feel like we 660 00:37:22,240 --> 00:37:24,040 were going. And and the first person who 661 00:37:24,040 --> 00:37:27,840 gave us that Bram was was John Callas who was the Co founder of 662 00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:33,200 PGP, who was very good friends with Hal Finney, knew Len Sassam 663 00:37:33,200 --> 00:37:36,560 and very well. And by the way, John Kallis is 664 00:37:36,560 --> 00:37:40,360 today the moderator of the Mets Dowd e-mail list, which is 665 00:37:40,360 --> 00:37:43,920 exactly where the Satoshi White's paper first appeared on 666 00:37:43,920 --> 00:37:47,920 Halloween 2008. And John Kallis said come on 667 00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:50,880 over, let's talk about this. So I went to John's house and we 668 00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:53,920 spent hours and hours and hours talking about this. 669 00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:57,000 And I was learning from him and I was asking him questions. 670 00:37:57,000 --> 00:37:59,680 And then I did it again. And then he introduced me to 671 00:37:59,680 --> 00:38:01,800 colleagues of his and to friends of his. 672 00:38:02,360 --> 00:38:05,000 And then we got to meet Will Price and I went to Will Price's 673 00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:06,400 house. Will Price, by the way, was the 674 00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:10,080 chief architect of PGP, worked directly for Phil Zimmerman, 675 00:38:10,080 --> 00:38:13,760 employed Hal Finney, gave Hal Finney all of his assignments, 676 00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:17,840 knew his coding skills. And so we really started to get 677 00:38:17,840 --> 00:38:20,920 into it back and forth. And in fact, and Tucker was 678 00:38:20,920 --> 00:38:22,240 wonderful about his support of this. 679 00:38:22,240 --> 00:38:26,600 I said to him, I want to make sure that we are not like going 680 00:38:26,600 --> 00:38:27,840 through the world with blinders on. 681 00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:33,120 I said, I want to make the case against Hal Finney to Will Price 682 00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:36,000 on camera. And this is in the film where I 683 00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:39,440 say I'm going to lay out why I think Hal is not Satoshi. 684 00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:42,760 And he said good luck. And so I went point after point 685 00:38:42,760 --> 00:38:45,200 after point. And it was he schooled me. 686 00:38:45,200 --> 00:38:47,520 It was wonderful to to watch Will. 687 00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:51,280 And he wasn't trying to be right, and he wasn't trying to 688 00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:54,400 be political. This is my personal feeling. 689 00:38:54,400 --> 00:38:58,600 He was memorializing a dear friend of his who he believed 690 00:38:58,600 --> 00:39:01,120 deserved credit for one of the most beautiful technological 691 00:39:01,120 --> 00:39:05,680 creations of the modern era. And so that kind of experience 692 00:39:05,680 --> 00:39:09,480 from an investigative standpoint was groundbreaking. 693 00:39:09,800 --> 00:39:14,840 Yeah, So the, the the the conclusion, right, hints at a 694 00:39:14,840 --> 00:39:18,680 collaboration between Hal Finney and and Len Sessman. 695 00:39:18,680 --> 00:39:25,720 Len Sessman, who also worked at at PGP, right, where your theory 696 00:39:25,720 --> 00:39:31,360 is now that Hal was a coder. Len wrote the the paper 697 00:39:31,360 --> 00:39:37,280 basically. And what was the, I want to call 698 00:39:37,280 --> 00:39:39,920 it a smoking gun, right? But like, maybe it was that 699 00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:41,520 moment that that you just mentioned. 700 00:39:41,520 --> 00:39:45,000 But that's also what I really liked about the film is that you 701 00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:48,800 see what you just said, right? Like they are they are 702 00:39:48,800 --> 00:39:51,920 memorializing or just remembering a person that had 703 00:39:51,920 --> 00:39:57,240 very deep motivation for the creation of something possibly 704 00:39:57,240 --> 00:40:00,320 like this, right? That's how they talk about him. 705 00:40:00,320 --> 00:40:03,200 And then later also the the the people that are connected with 706 00:40:03,840 --> 00:40:07,960 with Len. How do you kind of like, what's 707 00:40:07,960 --> 00:40:10,960 the trade off between like seeing that and sitting there 708 00:40:10,960 --> 00:40:14,240 with someone? But also, you know, Satoshi was 709 00:40:14,240 --> 00:40:17,480 like super active in forums, right? 710 00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:20,440 And then I think in the film you also talk about, you know, that 711 00:40:20,440 --> 00:40:23,640 people had a lot of these alternative names and they talk 712 00:40:23,640 --> 00:40:25,160 to themselves and etcetera, right? 713 00:40:25,160 --> 00:40:28,320 Like, so, so how do you kind of like have that trade off between 714 00:40:28,320 --> 00:40:32,280 having a feeling of someone is describing, you know, the, the, 715 00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:35,880 the, the perfect picture of, of hell, you know, having the 716 00:40:35,880 --> 00:40:39,560 skills and the ideology and whatnot to, to be able to create 717 00:40:39,560 --> 00:40:42,080 this first is OK, How do you connect that practically? 718 00:40:42,080 --> 00:40:44,840 And for example, there's the point where hell goes to this 719 00:40:45,240 --> 00:40:46,560 race, right? He does. 720 00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:48,480 That's the famous picture of hell Finney. 721 00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:52,400 But then Satoshi is also active. Like how do you kind of like 722 00:40:52,400 --> 00:40:57,240 comb through that stuff to to get a clearer picture? 723 00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:01,520 So I think there's a few examples that are in the film 724 00:41:01,520 --> 00:41:04,320 that I'm happy to talk about, but one is this example of Len 725 00:41:04,320 --> 00:41:07,760 was very public about posting about like basically shit 726 00:41:07,760 --> 00:41:10,040 talking Twitter, shit talking Bitcoin. 727 00:41:10,040 --> 00:41:11,520 Disliking Bitcoin? Yeah. 728 00:41:11,520 --> 00:41:14,080 Disliking Bitcoin and we talked about a lot about this. 729 00:41:14,080 --> 00:41:17,120 We, by the way, we weren't the first ones to discover this. 730 00:41:18,560 --> 00:41:22,240 It had been known. And so we said, who can we call 731 00:41:22,920 --> 00:41:27,160 to ask them about this, about Lens activity? 732 00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:31,040 And so he called his very best friend in the world, Bram Cohen, 733 00:41:31,320 --> 00:41:33,560 who's an amazing participant in this film. 734 00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:36,800 Bram Cohen, by the way, who runs Chia, the cryptocurrency today, 735 00:41:36,800 --> 00:41:39,640 and is the inventor of BitTorrent, which in many ways 736 00:41:39,640 --> 00:41:43,840 is very similar to Bitcoin. And then Meredith Patterson 737 00:41:43,920 --> 00:41:49,080 Lens, Len's wife, and both of them told us things that were so 738 00:41:49,080 --> 00:41:53,000 powerful and so useful in helping us understand. 739 00:41:53,480 --> 00:41:57,400 Like Len, for example, Meredith told us when I said to her at 740 00:41:57,400 --> 00:42:00,760 one point, is it possible that Len was involved in creating 741 00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:03,040 Bitcoin or created Bitcoin and never told you? 742 00:42:03,480 --> 00:42:07,440 And without missing a beat, she said, yeah, of course to her 743 00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:10,400 that was like something that was very possible. 744 00:42:10,400 --> 00:42:13,680 But I think when we think of Bitcoin today, we think there's 745 00:42:13,680 --> 00:42:16,880 no way someone creates a multi billion dollar asset and doesn't 746 00:42:16,880 --> 00:42:19,400 tell their spouse, right. But back then that's not what it 747 00:42:19,400 --> 00:42:21,360 was. It was like a brand new 748 00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:26,480 technology that was still being like designed essentially in the 749 00:42:26,480 --> 00:42:30,240 first couple of years by a small group of cryptographers and 750 00:42:30,360 --> 00:42:32,240 enthusiasts. And then with Bram Cohen, the 751 00:42:32,240 --> 00:42:37,480 example was, you know, why would Len speak badly about his own 752 00:42:37,480 --> 00:42:40,520 invention? And he said, like, quite matter 753 00:42:40,520 --> 00:42:42,520 of factly. Well, it's the perfect way of 754 00:42:42,600 --> 00:42:46,000 helping create the anonymity around this, right? 755 00:42:46,000 --> 00:42:50,000 It's like a deflection. And so it was wonderful to get 756 00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:52,920 there almost very matter of fact responses to that. 757 00:42:53,280 --> 00:42:57,000 And because of who they were and are and because of their 758 00:42:57,400 --> 00:43:00,360 connection to Lynn, best friend and wife, right? 759 00:43:00,360 --> 00:43:02,640 These are not people who knew him in high school, right? 760 00:43:03,360 --> 00:43:05,880 Or he'll be the most important people in his life or some of 761 00:43:05,880 --> 00:43:09,120 the most important people and willing to talk to us about 762 00:43:09,120 --> 00:43:11,080 this. Felt very powerful. 763 00:43:11,080 --> 00:43:13,320 But I'll let Tucker pick up on what I was mentioning. 764 00:43:14,720 --> 00:43:17,200 Yeah. I mean, I think that you said it 765 00:43:17,200 --> 00:43:22,720 really well. The specifically with regard to 766 00:43:22,720 --> 00:43:28,400 that, the sort of the idea that you want as many different 767 00:43:28,400 --> 00:43:29,960 points. If you're if you're trying to 768 00:43:29,960 --> 00:43:32,440 create something and you're trying to do it suit anonymously 769 00:43:32,440 --> 00:43:36,400 and not have people understand who it was, you're going to 770 00:43:37,280 --> 00:43:38,840 attack it. You're going to attack it from 771 00:43:38,840 --> 00:43:41,840 different voices. You're going to try to throw 772 00:43:41,840 --> 00:43:44,920 people off the scent. And we learned in that, in that 773 00:43:44,920 --> 00:43:48,400 interview with with Meredith that Len was an expert at that, 774 00:43:48,400 --> 00:43:51,680 that he that he studied stylometry or stylometric 775 00:43:51,680 --> 00:43:55,800 anonymity. And she talks specifically about 776 00:43:56,960 --> 00:44:00,120 about that methodology and, and about how Len, you know, was 777 00:44:00,120 --> 00:44:03,360 really a student of that and many people at the time were, 778 00:44:03,880 --> 00:44:04,960 you know, practice the same thing. 779 00:44:04,960 --> 00:44:09,080 So I think that's just a really nuanced and specific thing that 780 00:44:09,720 --> 00:44:12,360 that speaks to why he would do something like that. 781 00:44:13,080 --> 00:44:18,240 Yeah, you, you, you had Len's wife on camera eventually. 782 00:44:18,240 --> 00:44:21,200 Also friend. Finney Hell's wife. 783 00:44:21,200 --> 00:44:25,600 I saw a tweet of friend where she shared, you know, that that 784 00:44:25,600 --> 00:44:29,000 you approached her in 2023, that she didn't really want to 785 00:44:30,040 --> 00:44:33,600 participate. I've seen an earlier interview 786 00:44:33,600 --> 00:44:37,800 of friend Finney where she talks about actually being swatted. 787 00:44:37,800 --> 00:44:41,760 I think when when hell was still alive, but like very sick, like 788 00:44:41,760 --> 00:44:45,080 bed bound and stuff, which I don't know the details of that 789 00:44:45,080 --> 00:44:48,120 story, but you know, that sounds terrifying for her, of course. 790 00:44:48,120 --> 00:44:51,480 So, so I understand the apprehension, yeah. 791 00:44:51,480 --> 00:44:56,920 Why or how did you did you convince her to actually talk to 792 00:44:56,920 --> 00:44:59,160 you? Like she's probably probably the 793 00:44:59,160 --> 00:45:05,240 most public relative of of any of these, you know, possible 794 00:45:05,240 --> 00:45:08,600 suspects of being Satoshi and makes a lot of sense that that 795 00:45:08,600 --> 00:45:11,800 she doesn't want to publicity like why what? 796 00:45:11,880 --> 00:45:15,400 What turned her around? Well, First off, we always knew 797 00:45:15,400 --> 00:45:18,560 that having her in the film would would be very important 798 00:45:18,560 --> 00:45:21,440 for us. And we tried as as you 799 00:45:21,440 --> 00:45:23,600 referenced, we tried several times. 800 00:45:23,600 --> 00:45:26,400 Tyler reached out and had some communication with her and she 801 00:45:26,400 --> 00:45:29,640 really dismissed wanting to be involved at all. 802 00:45:30,200 --> 00:45:32,960 Ultimately, we finished the film and I think that was the version 803 00:45:32,960 --> 00:45:34,920 of the film that you saw about a year ago. 804 00:45:35,440 --> 00:45:37,760 And we were very happy with with where it was. 805 00:45:37,760 --> 00:45:41,400 And we felt that in many ways it was the opposite of a sort of 806 00:45:41,400 --> 00:45:43,480 Daxing story. And it honored it really 807 00:45:43,480 --> 00:45:48,320 honored, you know, how's contributions and many, many, 808 00:45:48,880 --> 00:45:51,560 many of those who led up to bitcoins contributions. 809 00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:55,520 And so we wanted to try a second shot and and we were fortunate 810 00:45:55,520 --> 00:45:59,960 enough to to, you know, have a conversation and show the film 811 00:45:59,960 --> 00:46:02,560 to Natalie Burnell, who is friendly with Fran. 812 00:46:02,560 --> 00:46:07,000 And she was moved by the movie and, and sent an e-mail to Fran 813 00:46:07,000 --> 00:46:11,520 suggesting that she at least watch it and, and no promises, 814 00:46:11,520 --> 00:46:14,760 but that she watch it and, and, and, you know, see how she felt 815 00:46:14,760 --> 00:46:17,120 about it. So we drove up Christian Parent, 816 00:46:17,120 --> 00:46:19,840 who works with me, and I drove up to Santa Barbara and we 817 00:46:20,160 --> 00:46:22,720 rented A screening place and we showed Fran the film. 818 00:46:22,720 --> 00:46:25,280 I was very nervous about it. I, I think I called Tyler six 819 00:46:25,280 --> 00:46:28,480 times in the parking lot while she was watching the movie, just 820 00:46:28,480 --> 00:46:30,680 because I knew how important it was not only to me, but to the 821 00:46:30,680 --> 00:46:36,000 movie that she, you know, felt protected by it and, and honored 822 00:46:36,000 --> 00:46:38,240 by it. And, and, and, you know, we 823 00:46:38,240 --> 00:46:41,200 really wanted ultimately to get her on camera and, and she came 824 00:46:41,200 --> 00:46:44,800 out of the film and, you know, gave me a big hug and, and said 825 00:46:44,800 --> 00:46:48,800 she she really, you know, was moved and, and thought the film 826 00:46:48,800 --> 00:46:52,720 was, was, you know, very interesting and compelling. 827 00:46:52,720 --> 00:46:57,400 And she agreed to go on camera. So we were, you know, an example 828 00:46:57,400 --> 00:47:00,280 of why had we finished it earlier, that would have never 829 00:47:00,280 --> 00:47:04,520 happened. And so we were fortunate in that 830 00:47:04,520 --> 00:47:07,040 and we feel really lucky to have her in the movie. 831 00:47:07,040 --> 00:47:12,760 She's a wonderful person, just a very genuine and, and sweet 832 00:47:12,760 --> 00:47:16,360 person and we're very protective of her because of what's 833 00:47:16,360 --> 00:47:19,560 happened in the past with her. And so we, we kind of wanted to 834 00:47:19,560 --> 00:47:23,840 make it very clear at the end of the movie that, you know, we've 835 00:47:23,840 --> 00:47:27,440 done work, you know, on whether she could potentially have any, 836 00:47:27,480 --> 00:47:30,240 you know, keys or anything like that or any Bitcoin and she 837 00:47:30,240 --> 00:47:33,320 doesn't, you know, and defend. It's we're very definitive on 838 00:47:33,320 --> 00:47:35,600 that point. We just don't want anybody sort 839 00:47:35,600 --> 00:47:38,640 of chasing that any more than they have in the past. 840 00:47:38,640 --> 00:47:41,520 And and we want to we want to protect her in that regard. 841 00:47:42,120 --> 00:47:45,320 But I think she was really an important part of the movie and 842 00:47:45,320 --> 00:47:48,880 the sentiment and what she said and how she talked about how 843 00:47:49,120 --> 00:47:51,200 comes through. Again, it's the human story. 844 00:47:51,200 --> 00:47:54,400 It's, you know, this is a husband and wife who loved each 845 00:47:54,400 --> 00:47:56,920 other and cared for each other and knew each other. 846 00:47:56,920 --> 00:48:01,440 And, and she she maintains and, and we respect this and we put 847 00:48:01,440 --> 00:48:02,880 it in in a card at the end of the movie. 848 00:48:03,240 --> 00:48:06,800 She maintains that, you know, while she thinks, you know, how 849 00:48:06,800 --> 00:48:09,800 certainly could have collaborated. 850 00:48:09,840 --> 00:48:12,560 And, and you know, I don't want to put words in her mouth, but 851 00:48:12,560 --> 00:48:16,640 but there, there's a lot saying that he did collaborate with Len 852 00:48:16,960 --> 00:48:19,040 in the time before the code was released. 853 00:48:19,880 --> 00:48:22,560 Both of them, you know, she knew that they were in conversation 854 00:48:22,560 --> 00:48:27,120 and that they knew each other. And she, she, she still believes 855 00:48:27,120 --> 00:48:31,880 that Hal is not the one who called himself Satoshi and that, 856 00:48:31,880 --> 00:48:35,080 you know, he, he did not mind that the, the million Bitcoin. 857 00:48:35,640 --> 00:48:40,120 But look, we, we believe that how was integral. 858 00:48:40,520 --> 00:48:45,080 And, you know, it's a, it's a, it's an interesting thing to 859 00:48:45,080 --> 00:48:49,520 talk about because who gets the, do you go all the way back to, 860 00:48:49,800 --> 00:48:52,720 you know, PGP and give credit to those people for Bitcoin? 861 00:48:53,040 --> 00:48:56,040 You know, everybody gets a little bit of a slice of credit 862 00:48:56,040 --> 00:48:59,080 leading up to this invention because without any one of those 863 00:48:59,080 --> 00:49:02,120 individual pieces, it would not be what it is. 864 00:49:02,880 --> 00:49:07,200 So I think ultimately it feels to us and it felt to us and we 865 00:49:07,200 --> 00:49:11,200 we, we stand by it that Hal and Len are the two that that 866 00:49:11,200 --> 00:49:14,480 contributed the most in the end there to get this online. 867 00:49:15,080 --> 00:49:19,960 Yeah, yeah, I, I think the, the part about, you know, the, it's 868 00:49:19,960 --> 00:49:24,000 the combination of different types of, of technologies that 869 00:49:24,000 --> 00:49:26,000 eventually culminate into Bitcoin, right? 870 00:49:26,000 --> 00:49:32,600 And I think the big invention that Satoshi did was solving 871 00:49:32,600 --> 00:49:35,800 the, the, the Byzantine general problem, right, which is 872 00:49:36,080 --> 00:49:40,320 eventually also game theoretical type problem, which is 1 of 873 00:49:40,320 --> 00:49:44,240 Len's expertise is right. So that makes a lot of sense 874 00:49:44,240 --> 00:49:49,760 combined with the, the technical work that Hal did and so on that 875 00:49:50,240 --> 00:49:52,560 the game theoretical part. I want to, I want to talk about 876 00:49:52,560 --> 00:49:59,480 like one smoking gun type of, of evidence that, that people are 877 00:49:59,480 --> 00:50:02,200 talking about now, like on on the Internet. 878 00:50:02,200 --> 00:50:04,600 We kind of mentioned it before we started, but I, I, I want to 879 00:50:04,600 --> 00:50:07,320 have it, have it in, in the recording, right? 880 00:50:07,320 --> 00:50:10,280 Like in the white paper, there's, there's only a few 881 00:50:10,280 --> 00:50:13,240 citations, right, of sources. And there the second citation is 882 00:50:13,240 --> 00:50:19,640 about like a very obscure book or print only paper, right? 883 00:50:19,640 --> 00:50:25,400 That that that was released at a conference in 1999 in Belgium. 884 00:50:25,840 --> 00:50:29,360 And it was very hard to, to find, like you could only buy it 885 00:50:29,360 --> 00:50:33,160 at the University of Louvre in Belgium, where, where Len was 886 00:50:34,440 --> 00:50:39,200 active at the time. And when, when we talked before, 887 00:50:39,200 --> 00:50:42,120 you know, you mentioned that you, you thought you saw the 888 00:50:42,120 --> 00:50:46,040 book or you saw the book on the shelf right in, in, in the home 889 00:50:46,040 --> 00:50:49,000 of, of Meredith of Len's wife. And now there's, there's people 890 00:50:49,000 --> 00:50:52,000 online that say, hey, there's a, there's a picture on his Flickr 891 00:50:52,000 --> 00:50:54,720 account that that shows his bookshelf and you see the book 892 00:50:54,720 --> 00:50:57,640 there. Could you kind of elaborate on 893 00:50:57,640 --> 00:51:00,480 if if this was the actual paper or the actual book or not? 894 00:51:00,480 --> 00:51:02,480 Like did you, did you use that part? 895 00:51:02,920 --> 00:51:03,480 Yeah. We did. 896 00:51:03,480 --> 00:51:05,840 We didn't use in the film because we couldn't verify it. 897 00:51:05,840 --> 00:51:11,200 And, and we did we, we someone actually, after, after we 898 00:51:11,200 --> 00:51:14,880 finished the film, reached out to Bill Cohan with this 899 00:51:14,880 --> 00:51:18,280 information and a screenshot of the Flickr account and the, and 900 00:51:18,280 --> 00:51:21,400 the bookcase in the back and just in doing our own work. 901 00:51:21,400 --> 00:51:23,280 And Tyler worked a little bit on it as well. 902 00:51:23,680 --> 00:51:26,720 It appears that that is not the right addition that was cited 903 00:51:27,080 --> 00:51:29,520 in, in the white paper kind of when you go in and you look at 904 00:51:29,520 --> 00:51:32,720 the, the date of it. So, you know, we just didn't 905 00:51:32,720 --> 00:51:36,280 feel, you know, like that could be used as a, as a, as a piece 906 00:51:36,280 --> 00:51:38,440 of evidence. It's obviously interesting, but 907 00:51:38,440 --> 00:51:41,800 those you know, after those conferences, many of those books 908 00:51:41,800 --> 00:51:44,000 were distributed to the attendees of the conference. 909 00:51:44,360 --> 00:51:48,520 And this one, at least the one in the in the Flickr picture, 910 00:51:48,520 --> 00:51:54,240 appears to be from a from a post, you know, white paper, you 911 00:51:54,240 --> 00:51:55,360 know, conference. So. 912 00:51:57,600 --> 00:52:00,920 Yeah, interesting, because it was a game theoretical book, 913 00:52:01,120 --> 00:52:01,800 right? So. 914 00:52:02,760 --> 00:52:05,560 There's no doubt that, that, that, that you know, as, as you 915 00:52:05,560 --> 00:52:09,680 point out, a lot of this stuff was floating around and, and, 916 00:52:09,680 --> 00:52:12,520 and there was a general interest, as there would be 917 00:52:12,520 --> 00:52:15,520 today. If, if, if you know, technical 918 00:52:15,520 --> 00:52:19,240 people, if some revolutionary conference, you know, put out or 919 00:52:19,880 --> 00:52:23,080 impactful conference put out a book, everybody would want to 920 00:52:23,080 --> 00:52:26,080 look into it and read it, you know, whatever it was about. 921 00:52:26,080 --> 00:52:28,920 So I think that these were, while they were rare in terms of 922 00:52:29,000 --> 00:52:34,320 the general public in this small circle, our small, respectively 923 00:52:34,320 --> 00:52:37,520 small circle, they were popular and, and a lot of people looked 924 00:52:37,520 --> 00:52:42,160 at them and read them. Yeah, for you both kind of to to 925 00:52:42,240 --> 00:52:46,040 wrap up some, some questions. Did did, did your personal 926 00:52:46,040 --> 00:52:50,000 appreciation for Bitcoin change after understanding who who 927 00:52:50,000 --> 00:52:52,960 likely build it like you, you had a certain outset from the 928 00:52:52,960 --> 00:52:55,120 start. You both had different starts, 929 00:52:55,120 --> 00:52:58,000 right. How how did your thoughts around 930 00:52:58,000 --> 00:53:03,400 this evolve And yeah, has has Bitcoin become bigger in your 931 00:53:03,400 --> 00:53:04,920 life? Go ahead. 932 00:53:05,960 --> 00:53:08,760 I mean, I suppose my answer is a version of what I said earlier, 933 00:53:08,760 --> 00:53:12,440 which is that I, I gained a real appreciation for the original 934 00:53:12,440 --> 00:53:15,920 motives for why what went into the creation of Bitcoin that I 935 00:53:15,920 --> 00:53:19,720 still think to this day is, is lost for many people. 936 00:53:20,400 --> 00:53:22,800 I mean, and This is why I think some people say it's not 937 00:53:22,800 --> 00:53:28,960 relevant because many things, right, like Listerine, 938 00:53:28,960 --> 00:53:32,880 gunpowder, bubble wrap, these are all inventions that were 939 00:53:32,880 --> 00:53:35,560 created for one reason and we use them for another, right? 940 00:53:36,960 --> 00:53:39,600 And Bitcoin is like that too. And I think that's part of the 941 00:53:39,600 --> 00:53:42,240 beauty of Bitcoin, that it's evolved with the community, 942 00:53:42,240 --> 00:53:44,800 right? Because Bitcoin was released as 943 00:53:44,840 --> 00:53:47,680 open source software. There's no CEO, there's no 944 00:53:47,680 --> 00:53:50,280 board, there's no corporate entity, there's nothing. 945 00:53:50,280 --> 00:53:53,280 It's just software. That's all right. 946 00:53:53,280 --> 00:53:56,120 That's what the code was released to be, which means the 947 00:53:56,120 --> 00:53:59,360 community jumps on board. And it's a, it's a collaboration 948 00:53:59,360 --> 00:54:02,560 of those who are curious about it and interested in about it. 949 00:54:03,120 --> 00:54:07,440 And that to me was in and of itself fascinating along with 950 00:54:07,440 --> 00:54:10,440 this idea that, you know, if you read the white paper, like 951 00:54:10,840 --> 00:54:13,920 Satoshi very clearly says that this is an electronic payment 952 00:54:13,920 --> 00:54:15,840 system, right? It's a, it's a form of digital 953 00:54:15,840 --> 00:54:19,080 cash to protect privacy. And although it doesn't really 954 00:54:19,080 --> 00:54:26,040 do that today, I'm still to this day fascinated by those origins 955 00:54:26,840 --> 00:54:29,120 and watching it become what it is today. 956 00:54:29,120 --> 00:54:31,760 Like almost every day, there's new news about whether it's some 957 00:54:31,760 --> 00:54:35,000 new regulation or lack of regulation or even during the 958 00:54:35,000 --> 00:54:38,680 course of the making of our film, a number of countries took 959 00:54:38,680 --> 00:54:41,320 on Bitcoin as sovereign currency. 960 00:54:41,320 --> 00:54:45,040 I mean, whether you like that or not is a fascinating development 961 00:54:45,760 --> 00:54:49,560 in world history. And so to kind of be beat, we 962 00:54:49,560 --> 00:54:54,320 were involved in this investigation as this asset as 963 00:54:54,320 --> 00:54:57,520 this technology is kind of exploding and and much the way 964 00:54:57,520 --> 00:55:00,120 that AI is today, right? Like every other day you learn 965 00:55:00,120 --> 00:55:01,960 something new about it and where it's going. 966 00:55:02,360 --> 00:55:04,640 And so it's been fun to be surfing on that wave. 967 00:55:06,800 --> 00:55:09,440 Yeah, that's a, that's a really, that's a good answer. 968 00:55:09,720 --> 00:55:15,880 I, I would say for me, I, I really had a, an, an almost 969 00:55:15,880 --> 00:55:18,200 immediate appreciation of Bitcoin when I started learning 970 00:55:18,200 --> 00:55:20,680 about it. And through this process that's 971 00:55:20,680 --> 00:55:25,960 only grown understanding how unique and interesting and 972 00:55:25,960 --> 00:55:30,440 intelligent and, and these people were who, who sort of led 973 00:55:30,440 --> 00:55:33,120 to this creation and how difficult it was at the time to 974 00:55:33,120 --> 00:55:36,960 do gives me a lot of reverence for it and respect for it. 975 00:55:37,720 --> 00:55:40,560 And I do believe that it's become it's, you know, we talked 976 00:55:40,560 --> 00:55:42,560 about it in the movie. It's a it's gone from, it went 977 00:55:42,560 --> 00:55:45,440 from zero to a trillion in sort of less than 10 years, which is 978 00:55:45,920 --> 00:55:49,000 more than any ass, you know, any asset class or company has 979 00:55:49,080 --> 00:55:53,240 faster than any asset class or company has ever done that. 980 00:55:53,240 --> 00:55:54,840 And I think that's for good reason. 981 00:55:54,840 --> 00:55:57,560 I think it's, it's here to stay. It's not going anywhere. 982 00:55:58,160 --> 00:56:00,960 There's a lot of elegance about what it does and, and what it 983 00:56:00,960 --> 00:56:02,760 is. There are certainly, you know, 984 00:56:03,400 --> 00:56:06,520 issues down the road with Quantum and you know, different 985 00:56:06,520 --> 00:56:09,320 things like that that could, you know, be challenging. 986 00:56:09,680 --> 00:56:14,960 But I do believe, I do believe that something as profound as as 987 00:56:14,960 --> 00:56:18,040 I believe Bitcoin is needs a great origin story. 988 00:56:18,040 --> 00:56:21,320 And we wanted to contribute it to that origin story with this 989 00:56:21,320 --> 00:56:26,640 movie in a way that was respectful and accurate. 990 00:56:28,320 --> 00:56:33,640 So I think through that process, I've just grown to appreciate it 991 00:56:33,640 --> 00:56:36,680 even more. Yeah, it's interesting. 992 00:56:36,680 --> 00:56:40,560 I always, you know, use the argument of the do you know how 993 00:56:40,560 --> 00:56:43,600 many ideas are released on the Internet every day, right, in 994 00:56:43,600 --> 00:56:46,640 obscure Internet forums all all over the place. 995 00:56:46,640 --> 00:56:52,760 And then even even 17 years later, this, you know, you could 996 00:56:52,760 --> 00:56:57,360 say random idea, not so random once you get it right, but this, 997 00:56:57,360 --> 00:57:01,280 this random idea is still surviving and thriving. 998 00:57:01,280 --> 00:57:05,440 And I think that is the main signal. 999 00:57:05,440 --> 00:57:07,880 And, and I agree with you. And I also want to emphasize 1000 00:57:07,880 --> 00:57:12,600 that, like on one side, I was always at the camp of, you know, 1001 00:57:12,600 --> 00:57:15,280 it's, it's, it doesn't matter who Satoshi is. 1002 00:57:15,280 --> 00:57:16,360 It's what you said, Tyler, right? 1003 00:57:16,360 --> 00:57:20,000 And it also, it doesn't matter because Bitcoin doesn't really 1004 00:57:20,000 --> 00:57:21,560 care. That's the whole point, right? 1005 00:57:21,560 --> 00:57:25,800 It's not attached to, to anyone. But I do think it's cool that, 1006 00:57:26,160 --> 00:57:28,760 you know, and, and I've talked to many people on this podcast 1007 00:57:28,760 --> 00:57:31,280 now that come from many different backgrounds and 1008 00:57:31,280 --> 00:57:36,160 interests and ages and whatever, you know, there's so many people 1009 00:57:36,160 --> 00:57:38,960 that are drawn to Bitcoin in their own way, you know, with 1010 00:57:38,960 --> 00:57:41,240 their own creativity and skills and history. 1011 00:57:41,240 --> 00:57:43,960 You know, Tucker, you, you, you, you have a lot of history and 1012 00:57:43,960 --> 00:57:46,960 telling, telling these stories. So I think it's actually very 1013 00:57:46,960 --> 00:57:51,720 cool that you felt compelled to, to tell that story like you just 1014 00:57:51,720 --> 00:57:54,600 said, right, like that, that origin story is great. 1015 00:57:54,600 --> 00:57:58,760 And I personally don't think it changes anything about Bitcoin. 1016 00:57:59,280 --> 00:58:02,400 It, it, it probably even, you know, if you, if you really 1017 00:58:02,400 --> 00:58:06,960 watch it and get all the other info besides, you know, Len and 1018 00:58:06,960 --> 00:58:11,760 Hal, I think a lot of people will grow more appreciation of, 1019 00:58:11,840 --> 00:58:14,560 of the, the concept and the reasoning behind this, right and 1020 00:58:14,560 --> 00:58:16,400 the motivation behind this as as well. 1021 00:58:16,400 --> 00:58:21,320 And I think that kind of, I would say is, is, is more 1022 00:58:21,320 --> 00:58:25,640 important than and, and I think also helps Bitcoin, you know, 1023 00:58:25,640 --> 00:58:28,880 and the reason of existence for Bitcoin itself more than the, 1024 00:58:29,960 --> 00:58:32,080 the taking away that, that anonymity. 1025 00:58:32,080 --> 00:58:37,560 I mean, to a degree, I'd say we're lucky that they are not 1026 00:58:37,560 --> 00:58:39,040 alive. I think that that would have 1027 00:58:39,320 --> 00:58:40,560 would, well, maybe that's a question. 1028 00:58:40,560 --> 00:58:41,960 Would that have changed that for you? 1029 00:58:41,960 --> 00:58:45,800 Like, is there a difference between, you know, them being 1030 00:58:45,800 --> 00:58:49,240 both deceased or or let's say it were two people that were alive 1031 00:58:49,240 --> 00:58:51,640 today? Sure. 1032 00:58:52,040 --> 00:58:54,160 There's there's there. There has to be a difference. 1033 00:58:54,160 --> 00:58:59,120 And I think that, you know, as, as is discussed in the sorry one 1034 00:58:59,160 --> 00:59:04,120 second, as is discussed in the movie, you know, if you have 1035 00:59:04,960 --> 00:59:07,120 people who have created something and they're alive, 1036 00:59:07,120 --> 00:59:08,920 they're they're looked at as founders almost. 1037 00:59:08,920 --> 00:59:14,720 And so attention goes as much to the creation as it does to the 1038 00:59:14,720 --> 00:59:19,040 people who created it. And what they say or, you know, 1039 00:59:19,280 --> 00:59:24,680 decisions they make become very public and and you can vacillate 1040 00:59:24,680 --> 00:59:28,880 in terms of what you might feel about those people versus what 1041 00:59:28,880 --> 00:59:31,200 you feel about their invention. I mean, you know, it doesn't 1042 00:59:31,360 --> 00:59:34,480 take much imagination to to think about, you know, past 1043 00:59:34,480 --> 00:59:38,080 creators, you know, whether it was Jobs and Wozniak or Elon or 1044 00:59:38,080 --> 00:59:42,680 whatever, who have created incredibly brilliant things, 1045 00:59:43,480 --> 00:59:48,000 which have become, you know, mass distributed and used. 1046 00:59:48,280 --> 00:59:51,520 And they're changed the world and impacted people's lives. 1047 00:59:51,960 --> 00:59:55,080 And, and sometimes, you know, one of them's in the headlines 1048 00:59:55,080 --> 00:59:57,800 or one of them has been in the headlines and everybody swings 1049 00:59:57,800 --> 00:59:59,840 in One Direction and then swings back in the other direction. 1050 00:59:59,840 --> 01:00:02,680 So I think it's impossible to sort of separate those two 1051 01:00:02,680 --> 01:00:04,880 things. I love that. 1052 01:00:06,600 --> 01:00:10,720 That the attention right now and in the past has really has 1053 01:00:10,720 --> 01:00:14,480 really been on the actual creation as opposed to, you 1054 01:00:14,480 --> 01:00:18,200 know, the lives of the people that, you know, created it. 1055 01:00:18,200 --> 01:00:20,920 And but I did want to, and we thought it was really, really 1056 01:00:20,920 --> 01:00:25,440 important to get into those people's lives and, and again, 1057 01:00:25,640 --> 01:00:28,320 honor them because what what they did was, was pretty 1058 01:00:28,320 --> 01:00:34,840 incredible and brilliant. So now that the film is out and 1059 01:00:35,440 --> 01:00:38,840 people are discussing, you know your conclusion, how have the 1060 01:00:38,840 --> 01:00:42,040 reactions to the to the film surprised you, Tyler? 1061 01:00:44,480 --> 01:00:49,000 Oh, that's a great question. I mean, it's been largely very 1062 01:00:49,000 --> 01:00:52,480 positive, which has been wonderful because in some ways 1063 01:00:52,480 --> 01:00:56,760 that's a kind of validation of all the work, the hard work that 1064 01:00:56,760 --> 01:01:00,400 we put into it. You know, the fact that in the 1065 01:01:00,400 --> 01:01:03,720 last year there have been two other attempts to other projects 1066 01:01:03,720 --> 01:01:06,960 like this, the HBO film Money Electric and then the New York 1067 01:01:06,960 --> 01:01:11,040 Times piece a few weeks ago. I think, you know, I personally 1068 01:01:11,040 --> 01:01:13,520 welcome those, right? Because it's it's smart people, 1069 01:01:13,840 --> 01:01:16,080 you know, whether it's Adam McKay or John Kerry Rue, they're 1070 01:01:16,080 --> 01:01:18,520 journalists, you know, taking a shot at this. 1071 01:01:19,440 --> 01:01:20,920 We disagree with their conclusions. 1072 01:01:20,920 --> 01:01:25,480 We have our own, but it's it's been wonderful, you know, as is 1073 01:01:25,480 --> 01:01:27,960 evidenced by this podcast. And I want to thank you, Bram, 1074 01:01:27,960 --> 01:01:34,560 for asking such, such smart questions because, you know, to 1075 01:01:34,560 --> 01:01:37,800 Tucker's point, it's, it's more than just who, but why and what 1076 01:01:37,800 --> 01:01:40,680 kind of person you know, And that's the benefit of having 1077 01:01:40,680 --> 01:01:43,520 someone like Tucker tell these stories because his job is 1078 01:01:43,520 --> 01:01:44,960 narrative. It's storytelling, right? 1079 01:01:44,960 --> 01:01:47,160 It's keeping audiences engaged, engaged. 1080 01:01:47,160 --> 01:01:50,160 And in fact, I would make an argument that we need more 1081 01:01:50,160 --> 01:01:52,920 scripted film makers like Tucker to make documentaries because 1082 01:01:52,920 --> 01:01:57,120 it's a really fun story that we're able to tell, you know, 1083 01:01:57,120 --> 01:02:00,160 basically using, by their own admission, kind of nerdy 1084 01:02:00,160 --> 01:02:04,160 mathematicians, right. And what an amazing project to 1085 01:02:04,160 --> 01:02:08,720 be able to compile with that. So All in all, I'm really happy 1086 01:02:08,720 --> 01:02:10,960 with the reception so far. Would you agree, Tucker? 1087 01:02:11,200 --> 01:02:14,720 I would, yeah. I mean, I think that people seem 1088 01:02:14,720 --> 01:02:18,680 to generally really appreciate the effort and the movie and 1089 01:02:18,840 --> 01:02:21,640 we're getting a lot of positive feedback. 1090 01:02:21,640 --> 01:02:24,840 So anytime that's the case, it's great. 1091 01:02:24,840 --> 01:02:28,000 Obviously there are people who disagree or have their own 1092 01:02:28,000 --> 01:02:30,160 conclusions and that that's never going to stop. 1093 01:02:30,160 --> 01:02:34,880 We won't be, I doubt the last, you know, documentary on, on 1094 01:02:34,880 --> 01:02:36,280 Satoshi. I think there will be more and 1095 01:02:36,280 --> 01:02:40,120 that will continue to happen. But I think we, we at least 1096 01:02:40,520 --> 01:02:44,960 stirred it up in a good way and we've we think we've done really 1097 01:02:44,960 --> 01:02:47,080 good work and, and conclusive work. 1098 01:02:48,480 --> 01:02:50,640 Awesome guys. Well, thank you so much for 1099 01:02:50,800 --> 01:02:53,520 coming on the podcast. I really appreciate your time 1100 01:02:53,520 --> 01:02:56,320 and and thanks for sharing how this journey went. 1101 01:02:56,560 --> 01:02:59,320 If people want to watch the film, they can go to 1102 01:02:59,320 --> 01:03:03,960 findingsatoshi.com. And yeah, if you're listening 1103 01:03:03,960 --> 01:03:06,120 and you watched it, let us know what you think. 1104 01:03:06,120 --> 01:03:08,800 And yeah, thanks again, guys. And just stay in touch. 1105 01:03:09,080 --> 01:03:09,840 Thank you. Thank you. 1106 01:03:10,160 --> 01:03:12,120 Thanks. I hope you enjoyed this episode. 1107 01:03:12,200 --> 01:03:15,440 If you did, you can click here to find more just like it and 1108 01:03:15,440 --> 01:03:18,320 click here to find all Bitcoin for Millennials podcast 1109 01:03:18,360 --> 01:03:20,640 episodes. Also, if you want to help me 1110 01:03:20,640 --> 01:03:24,480 shine a light on the message of Bitcoin, please like this video 1111 01:03:24,520 --> 01:03:28,040 and subscribe to stay connected. I hope to see you for the next 1112 01:03:28,040 --> 01:03:29,000 episode. Bye.