Hey there, this is Pram Constand and you're listening to Bitcoin
for Millennials. Together with my guests on this
podcast, I go on a journey to discover how our current
financial system works, why it's flawed, and why Bitcoin is the
most relevant technology that you, my fellow millennials,
should understand and adopt. But first, a little word from
our sponsor, the Bitcoin Conference in Amsterdam.
In a little over three weeks, on October 12th and 13, the most
brilliant minds in Bitcoin from across Europe and beyond will
come together for two days of learning, teaching and inspiring
the Bitcoin community. It will be the first Bitcoin
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for 10% of your tickets. That's BFM to get 10% of your
tickets. Now let's move on to this
episode of Bitcoin for Millennials.
I'm joined by Marc van Fersenthal.
Mark is an entrepreneur whose journey has taken him from
psychology and high stakes poker to a dedicated focus on Bitcoin.
Fueled by the 2020 pandemic, Mark took an extraordinary leap
of faith. He sold everything and embarked
on a nearly three-year global journey with his family.
Questioning deeply ingrained beliefs about money, economics,
and social inequality, he came to understand the broken Fiat
financial system and how little control individuals actually
have over their financial destiny.
This put him on a mission to help individuals and businesses
seamlessly integrate Bitcoin into their lives, as he now does
with his company. Don't miss this compelling
conversation where we explore the philosophical and spiritual
journey that led us both into Bitcoin and hopefully will help
you too. Enjoy this episode and please
let me know what you think, right It's working.
Seems like it. Actually you are around the
corner, right? Like we are literally 300 meters
apart, but I don't have a. I guess so.
I guess we could have done this life as well.
I'm not entirely sure why we chose this way, but this is cool
as well, right? I don't have a set.
Do you have a set? No, no, yeah, no, no, not.
What do you mean by set, by the way?
I like, I like to record locally.
Well, maybe if there's another sponsor, then, you know, later
on we can have a physical or recording.
We'll have a lot of equipment, so probably if we if we look at
what we all have, it would be a nice setting.
I'm not sure if we have everything we need, but we we
can find out probably next time. OK, well, maybe later we'll do
it like this. Mark.
Welcome to Bitcoin for millennials.
Right. Like you're the 4th guest.
I'm I'm happy that you're here. I think you have a really
interesting story that is fun and nice to share with the
audience that we're building. But first a quick check which
generation do you belong to? I guess I'm a millennial, right?
I'm from 1985. So, yeah, Okay.
Well, then we are both millennials.
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, nice.
Do you actually identify as this generation?
For like how people identify with stuff nowadays.
Well, no. Well, at first, definitely no.
And now, Because the more you read, the more you study, the
more you learn about all those different generations, right?
And you hear a lot of shit talking about boomers.
So, right. Because they had it all and they
had way more opportunity and yadda yadda and I don't
particularly like that victim mindset.
So to me, everyone is equal. I truly don't care which
generation you are or aren't. What I guess is like be unique,
be yourself and make shit happen, right?
That's actually what I think and that's basic answer to your
question I guess. Yeah, no, I love that.
I think it's it's interesting how people now identify with all
these external things nowadays, right?
Like I I think you read this book too.
Like one of my favorite books is Untethered Soul Michael Singer.
It's like the self development book.
Yeah. Well by the way, eventually I
think all these books revolve around the same concepts, right?
But told in a different way. But I like he starts off with,
you know, if you ask someone a question like who are you, You
know? And people start with like I my
name that was given by my parents, you know, I'm my job or
I'm a man or a woman or whatever, you know, like it.
That has become like way worse nowadays.
Like people identify with a lot of all these external things
instead of, yeah, I think you know, the self like who they,
who they actually are, right? Like, what's your idea on that?
No, I'm. I'm with you on that.
Like it's all made-up, right. It's all.
So I studied psychology. So then you pretty quickly learn
how your mindset you know this this collection of limited
beliefs, emotions, thoughts, and all those patterns that are all
from the outside going in. And if everything from the
outside is going in and you actually identify with all of
it, you suddenly have an identity that has nothing to do
with the real true you. But if you go too far into this
rabbit hole, like, you will quickly find out that almost
nothing is really you like. It's basically all made-up.
And what I believe strongly is if you can, body is not you.
Right, Yeah, right. It's like so if you can think
about that. Out loud like we do now.
You couldn't make the argument that you can made-up for
yourself the way you wanted to. And then it becomes a a a
benefit, it becomes a a a form of power, right.
And so I would say if if, if everyone would be less willing
to listen to all the things that they've been taught in school
and by their parents and by the society, because they those are
all narratives. And just create your own
narrative. And I think that if you do that,
I strongly believe that Bitcoin, we be probably going to talk
about Bitcoin as well. I think so, yeah.
Does that a lot, you know? And you can see that there are
multiple narratives flying around and you can of course
choose one of those narratives and then identify with it.
And so the rest is all bad. Only that particular narrative
of those particular hardcore bitcoiners.
That's the one I identify with. The rest is bad.
Or you just create your own narrative and be part of the the
global movement. That bit Bitcoin actually is in
your own unique way. That's that's how I think of it.
Does it make sense? Yeah.
Yeah, I know. I love that.
And I think in general, that's also what Bitcoin brings, right?
Like when people talk about is this a product or whatever?
No, it's a it's a protocol. It's a base layer set of rules
that anyone can adopt and and follow, but you can apply it in
all these different ways, right? So no, I fully agree with that.
And I think it also really challenges people that because
it's a protocol, right, with a set of rules that if you want to
play, you have to follow the rules.
That eventually also leads to anything built on Bitcoin has
the foundation of these rules that anyone can see, right?
And also with all the transactions and the Ledger,
etc. So it's kind of like forces
transparency all throughout the layers that are built upon this
protocol. I actually had a Twitter
conversation last week and I think I also mentioned it in my
episode with Peter Dunward. I love to say this right when
people or institutions have to say that they are righteous or
transparent or acting correctly or fair or whatever.
Like when they have to say it, they are not.
Yes, they have to say it because they can show it.
And what I love about Bitcoin is that A the protocol and B
anything built on top. It has to follow the rules.
And the rules are there for anyone to see and you can agree
to follow them or not. But like, there's no like, it's
yes or no, right? And so anyone doing anything
with Bitcoin, they, yeah, they can try to talk shit, but
eventually they can be held accountable in in the most
transparent way possible. So they cannot only say they
are, you know, doing something fair, but they actually have to
show it like they have to. Like if you say you have to show
it now and they say no, then you already know that they're not
acting in a correct way. Yeah, right.
And yeah, I absolutely love that about Bitcoin.
And I think that also challenges a lot of narratives and
thoughts, frameworks, whatever, how things people use to operate
their personal life or businesses in this.
Yeah, so if you study humans, if you study the brain of humans
and. It's you will find out that we
are indeed inherently corrupt right like it's we are also
inherently good so we we actually have both of those
sides in every human beings. So if you then start to think
about the all the corruption that we have experienced already
in the world and you realize that it's all man made
corruption, then transparency is suddenly a very important
feature to have. And yeah, this, this.
This distant transparency is the only way out, right?
It's the only way that really keeps us honest.
So in a way I experienced already, if and it doesn't
matter if it's on LinkedIn, on Twitter, in real life, every
time when I meet people and they actually do not like Bitcoin, or
they do not love it or and they have studied it, studied it, or
they do somehow know what it is. It's simply because they don't
like that part of Bitcoin. They don't want to be exposed,
right? They don't want to be seen, They
want to have secrets. And I guess therefore, everyone
who likes Bitcoin, after they've studied a little bit, I already
know they have the right foundation.
For me to connect with them. And of course they can have
thoughts about things that are differently than mine, but
still, I already know it's not what it's about.
Right, exactly. Do whatever you want.
But the fact that you love Bitcoin once you've studied it
for at least a few hours, I already know.
You're the right kind of man, right kind of woman, right kind
of people for me. And that's an important feature
of Bitcoin as well. It actually exposes the ones
that still want to be lying and the ones that actually want to
be truthful with themselves and with others.
Yeah, now I fully agree. I think it's really learning
about Bitcoin and well, I think deciding if you want to adopt
it, spend more time or do something with it.
Like it's also really like spiritual journey in a sense.
That and I wrote some questions down about this and I think
we'll get to that. But there's so many things you
have to like well, learn a, but also like unlearn right and
challenge yourself and really understand like, OK, I don't
know everything. And even when I discover
something new that that I would rationally deem true.
But if it goes like against all my beliefs that I've learned,
that's just really hard thing to integrate and adopt and then to
actually live by, right? So now I fully agree with that
and I also agree like first time we met, this is the first time
we talk, you know, but first time we met, I think we talked
for an hour or something, You know, like that that it just
goes, yeah, naturally like you understand what type of person
you were talking to. And then again, like we can
disagree on anything but the the underlaying layer basically is a
certain, yeah, makes us have a certain connection that, yeah,
gives each other respect without I think just not knowing each
other for that long, you know. But we can still jam like this,
which I think is something that we really miss nowadays, right.
Like people, people see the world as zeros and one or black
and white or yes or no, like binary or not binary nowadays.
But I mean like so simple, like simplistic, simplistic, right.
But it's it's it's very hard. It's it's very hard to be alive,
actually, right? Yeah.
It's just it's it's hard like it's not, it's not always fun or
nice, but that's just how it is, right?
Like you can think something about that, but yeah, like you
cannot really change it. Yeah, yeah.
So I honestly believe we missed that foundational layer that we
then in this case bitcoiners already have.
By knowing Okay you're talking to a bitcoiner, he probably
thinks differently about specific stuff, because yes, we
are different, but the base layer, the foundation layer is
quote UN quote the same. And that feels really good.
It's really easy to connect if the foundation is already there.
And then you can have debates about almost any topic and it
can go can go head to head as well.
You can be different, you can think differently.
But the thing that you now see outside worries me, of course,
because I cannot say the things that I want to say if I'm in a
debate or in a conversation, because people really don't want
to hear specific things and I. Sort of thing that because that
foundational layer is so corrupt or messed up, we are not able to
say what we want anymore. And then you get people who stop
talking. And if we stop talking, we stop
learning. If we stop learning, we go
backwards. And that's what I feel is
happening in society. So, and I think a lot of
bitcoiners even maybe they see it because they they they think
about it a lot or they they are smart or whatever and some don't
see it because they don't think about it too often.
But I guess subconsciously everyone in bitcoins, Bitcoin
feels it. And I think it's also a part why
Bitcoin attracts so many different people.
They feel this disconnection with the world, they don't know
why, and it's also what you were mentioning, the disconnection
with their own identity. Right.
They have this made-up story about themselves.
They don't feel the connection with that narrative and
therefore they do drugs, they do alcohol, they work too much,
they go work out too much or too little.
They eat too much or too little. And all those things are just, I
think, something from the outside that's a consequence of
not being connected to the true you and the real you.
Yeah, I think I want to ask you something like when you say, and
I talked about this before in the podcast but also in other
episodes, like when we talk to people about Bitcoin, you know,
like I think British Hall said to me, like, oh, you're being,
you're being robbed. You know, like inflation is
theft and all these things. And and in my experience, when I
talk with people about Bitcoin, I try to avoid these words,
right? Or what you say, like the system
is corrupted, right? Like, like, I agree.
But when you start off with these words or with these like
statements, then that really puts people off.
And it's a really hard, yeah, what follows is a really hard
conversation then. Right.
Because like I I have a very good friend and we talk a lot
about Bitcoin. He doesn't have any Bitcoin, but
and I'm trying to, you know, like get get him there.
But when I say like, oh, the money is corrupted and and
you're being stolen from, then he just turns off Like he he
just, he he says like, oh, that's so like why do you use
these words? You know, that's so harsh.
And this is that. And so, So what do you think
about this? Like, I find it very hard to
then continue the conversation because I love him, you know,
and I want him to see it. Um, But yeah, there's something
that's holding him back. But perhaps there's also
something that I could do differently.
Like like what do you think about this?
Yeah, no, of course I agree. And it's it's difficult in
practice. So in theory I fully agree,
because I think if you know how the brain and how humans work.
We can only change someone's mind by let him or her change
it, right? So we cannot change.
This means that the probably the best technique is to to one know
your shit and to do not, like, present that information but ask
questions, because questions turn that around.
Yes, it's difficult for me as well.
I mean I we love to podcast as well that's that means we love
to talk. We love to speak.
We love love to have interesting debates.
And if you only. Ask questions.
You are actually. And that's the important part
that I think guys like we and others have to change our
mindset in. We are actually more in control
of the outcome of the conversation if we ask questions
then instead if we present all the info.
Because if we of course present all the info, they have all
those associations with all that information and they are going
to create their own narratives. And your friend in this example
he is. A good friend.
And he also is honest about what he feels and then says to you,
look, I don't, I don't like it if you talk like this, so let's
let's quit altogether. So that's being honest.
But 99% of people, they just stop listening to you, act like
they are listening and then opt out anyways, right?
You don't change minds in this way.
So yes, I agree. However, in practice, like I
said when I was starting this little little, little preach.
I think in in practice it's really difficult because you
have been in all those corners of off this rabbit hole already
and all the things that they want to say you already know.
So before they say it, you already want to like got it, got
it out and therefore they don't have a chance in the
conversation. So it's not actually a
conversation and they don't actually believe that you're
listening to what they are feeling and to what they are
sensing. So everyone with that's the
advice I give myself on record right now.
So hopefully nobody listens in my direct environment.
But start from zero every time. Every time.
Start from zero and just ask questions.
Then you will probably get there.
Because they do know. They do know because they,
especially the people who already, I hate to say, woken
up, but you you understand what I mean.
They already sense or feel this is not how my life should be.
They they, they are dissatisfied about things.
That's why they eat too much. That's why they drink too much.
That's why they've used too much drugs.
That's why they do work that they don't like.
They have created this narrative that all these things are, quote
UN quote normal. But they aren't and they know
it. And I guess if you and I come
with the with the Bitcoin questions, the philosophical
Bitcoin questions, they do want to be honest and they do want to
be vulnerable. But not if you and I percent how
life should be, right. So now 100%.
Yeah. Yeah.
So I stopped that a long time ago.
So I do try to ask questions, but it's more about, yeah, I
think my point was more about it's just the words.
Like, sometimes people just turn off because they hear certain
words. But I think that also ties back
to, I wanna say, like this personal journey, right?
Like opening your mind in a certain sense.
Well, when you actually are aware of what you mentioned, you
know that's okay, my life is like this.
But I don't think it should be like what are the influences
here, like outside of me and what are the things that I can
control? And then from there, perhaps a
seed is planted to open your mind.
Like I always told myself, like how I view myself, like how I
learned about this is just like you have to open doors in your
mind that you even that you didn't even know were there,
right. And then when new information
comes in, yeah, you have to battle with like the narratives
that you you thought you understood or knew or believed
or whatever. And then?
Yeah, it's just a slow. It's a slow process.
No, but this ties back to the words.
This ties back to the words you were mentioning, like those more
aggressive words about stealing and and corruption and
propaganda and whatever. One more thing about that.
Yes. So that closes the doors in
their minds. So they have associations with
those words and then they instantly stop listening.
So therefore I would say the only way is to turn it around
and you can only know which words they use if you let them
talk. Right.
So therefore the question party. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah. All right.
So you just came back from a three-year global journey with
your family and are now fully focused on Bitcoin.
What? I love that you did this, but
what I noticed is there's similar stories to yours.
There's also a fellow Dutchman who did the same.
What's his name? Didi Tahutu.
He went also all in on Bitcoin. But there's a lot of these
stories, right? Like, what do you think fuels
this? Wow.
Yeah, that's a good question. And like, of course I can speak
for myself and I can speak for the ones that I came across
while traveling, right? Look, we have two little
daughters, right? One at the time was barely one
year old, and the other was barely four years old.
So now they are four and seven, right?
So a lots of people don't believe that this is possible
with really young kids, but of course it is possible.
And I guess the the, the things that we were talking about
already in this convo. So the things about asking
yourself the question, is this actually my life?
Is this actually me or is this all made-up?
And if so, by whom? If you ask those questions, I
think you end up with Bitcoin. More often than not, if you go
deep enough, like, of course you can go.
Yeah. So the spiritual thing is
downstream from money, right? Like, I think that's one of the
things that I see as one of the, like, pillars of why Bitcoin.
And I have to say, like, I don't always understand it fully as to
why that is. So I assume something still and
I still don't understand it fully.
But what I hear a lot is every everything, all the problems we
have is downstream from the money.
And how I kind of like shape that is okay.
We have no clue how much money there is.
Money is made by the Press of a button.
Nothing is backing the money. Actually, I was in a Twitter
conversation with a guy who said, yeah, money is backed by
the debt that someone owes and that they're gonna repay it or
something like that. That didn't make any sense to
me. So I just think that the money
is not backed by anything and work is backed by energy.
You put in energy. So that is already not a great
equation. Compare that to Bitcoin.
It is backed by energy. It's fully transparent.
The rules are transparent. We know how many things are like
it's just intransparent versus ultra transparent, right?
And again, if you think that if the base layer is transparent,
anything downstream from a transparent base layer is
conceptually honest and fair and all these things.
And anything downstream from something that is super
intransparent, yeah, of course, if it can be corrupted, you
know, if there's a door open for it to be corrupted, then people
will corrupt it because we are, it's fight flight, you know, we
are in survival mode. So.
And you see that with your young children as well.
I see that too. Like it's me first and then the
rest, of course. So if you have a chance to
misuse an intransparent system, then obviously that happens,
right. And whether you and I would
think we would not do it, if we are close enough, we would
probably do it right. So that is my understanding of
everything. All the problems are downstream
from the broken money, basically.
Yeah, sorry to interrupt, but that is like I want to share,
you know how, how, how I kind of paint that, paint that picture.
Yeah, yeah. And I I I guess you're right.
The everything is all downstream from money if you let's say it's
all start with awareness anyway, because of course, if you think
about why, why is it? Why are people traveling the
world and why are they also bitcoiners?
If you are aware about who you want to be in life and where you
are at that point in time, you start to ask yourself questions.
So awareness, you raise awareness.
You're going to look for answers.
And if you're going to look for answers, you are probably ending
up of you being part of the economic machine.
And that's why you're fed up with life.
You know, we had, we had two young kids.
My wife was basically crying in the car for hating her work.
I was not hating my work, but it was a lot.
It was a lot, and I was making a lot of money as well.
But I was not the dad that I wanted to be for my daughters.
And I had a vision in my life how how I wanted my life to be,
and it was not the same anymore. So you start to become aware.
And if you start to become aware, you start actually start
asking questions. How did I end it up here?
And then you're going to start thinking about your parents,
right? And about your direct
environment and also about school and about work.
And then you start to like. Slowly, gradually, then suddenly
figuring out, OK, I'm, I'm just a product here.
I'm the product. I'm not being me and unique at
all. I'm just a product like anybody
else. And that makes you probably that
brings you to a mindset that you start questioning that A and B,
how can I go, how can I escape this?
How can I call it? Do you think this is like a
Western world problem? I think the Western world
problem is it's definitely bigger in the West.
Definitely, like we all live in concrete walls, like pretty much
very, very close to each other. So a lot of a lot of triggers
every day, every second of the day around you.
And of course, if you need people to be part of the
economic machine, you need the man and the woman to keep it
going. And then of course, family
becomes a thing of the background.
Whereas in South America, where I've traveled, in Asia where
I've traveled, in Africa where we traveled, family is way more
important cornerstone of society.
Still there, the moms do not work a lot, right.
So it's it's it's different than here.
So yes, I would say the problems are bigger here, but it all
makes sense if you think out loud about it, if you start to
figure out the incentives, the taxation.
The whole system in general, you start to understand where all
the narratives come from and why people do what they do.
They need to do this in order to get the incentive and to stay
alive in the economic machine that we are living in.
So yeah, I do believe that once you, like I said it all, start
with awareness. Once you raise it, you start to
ask more questions and you will end up with all the narratives
created by by the world as it is.
And so, if that's all incentivized by money and the
monetary system, of course you end up at Bitcoin, so it makes
sense that travelers will. Travelers are also interested in
Bitcoin as well. Yeah.
So how did you first become interested in investing finance?
Yeah, etc. Of course.
So I studied psychology I. Learned about the principles of
scarcity. And therefore I always thought,
OK, the best investment you can make is in yourself.
You know, like there are 8 billion people, The only truly
unique thing, and that's really scarce, that's me.
So I was already pretty pretty much involved with investing a
lot in myself, so it didn't take a lot of time before I ended up
investing in general. And so then me being me, me
being a human as well, I ended up in the shit coins as well.
I thought it was easy to make money with it.
I loved the psychology part of the of the cycle, so I thought
it was an interesting digital technology revolution kind of
energy. So I ended up over there and.
That was the same period. I guess it was the same period
that I really ended up ended with the with the shit cornery
and became more interested in Bitcoin once COVID came into the
world depending the pandemic start.
That was the point in time that of course a lot of narratives
that we are talking about got destroyed and I think people
were aware already. I was pretty aware already that
was the final push that I needed to, like, raise my awareness.
Ask questions about what I was doing about, hey, we can do this
differently with a family. And also if you do this with a
family and you start traveling the world with a lot of money,
with a lot of capital, you also should be doing the right things
with the capital while you're traveling.
And so only investing things you truly understand.
That was an important rule that I learned, so I stopped with all
the things that I did not understand.
And the only thing that I wanted to learn is how the monetary
system worked, so that therefore I knew if I had to invest it in
in government bonds, in specific stocks or in Bitcoin or in
crypto. And of course, I learned the
economic situation was changing. And to me, it became actually
clear that I needed to learn more about money per se.
And therefore I ended up at Bitcoin.
Nice. So yeah, yeah, yeah, I love our
story is very similar, I think. And that's in that sense I
mentioned in another episode, Like I was when I was 30, at a
mortgage and a house, and I was working at a bank.
And I talked to a colleague at one point and he told me, like,
do you know that the money in the bank is not yours?
And I said, what do you mean? So then we had a lunch for an
hour and he told me how it worked.
And then I thought, wow, this makes absolutely.
Well, it makes sense in a certain or conceptually you know
how it works. The fractional reserve banking
like it it makes some sense. But it takes so much like
sovereignty away from that. The Buster's the people who put
the money in the bank that I thought, okay, this is just like
I'm doing this, but I don't understand it basically.
And that's also when and I think that ties back to what we talked
about like this, the self development path.
I was just thinking like okay, I'm an idiot as well, right?
Like I'm participating in something that I have no
understanding of. So I think I should actually try
to understand it before I participate or keep
participating or maybe participate more in it, right,
Like whatever my conclusion would be.
So that's also kind of like one of the, the starting points for
me where I was like, OK, I have absolutely no clue, but I think
I should know, right? Although it's very confronting,
I think I should, you know, investigate this more.
So what's what is your conclusion and like how do or
what is your explanation? I'd rather say like how do
governments control and influence the money, Like how
does that work? What's your understanding of
that? Yeah, well.
Of course, like we we have a few central authorities,
institutions that are able to create money like you said, like
we have the fractional reserve banking.
So we have commercial banks that are able indeed when you deposit
like 1000 thousand dollars, €1000.
They're able to like at least 90% of it to lend it out again.
And when you lend it out, when they lend it out to someone else
and they buy a home with it, by the way, then of course you need
higher numbers. But let's say you lend it out
like €400,000 to someone. This person of course is going
to buy a house with it. And that means that another
person receives that €400,000 at their bank account and therefore
that bank can lend it out again, well 90% of that amount.
So you get a creation of money upon a creation of money upon a
creation of money, and so a lot more money is going into the
economy. Of course I understand that if
this money is used correctly and creates more productivity that
you do have an argument to say it has also something good in
it, right? So I I understand that that at
Keynesian argument I understand it why you probably quote UN
quote need inflation to grow. But in the end if you talk this
through, it does not make sense because money actually was a
bottom up process, right. And a bottom up process means
that we wanted money to create prosperity.
We the the people, we needed it to grow in various ways.
And if it's a bottom up process, you have to rethink about it and
you have to think okay, what then?
Make makes a good form of money. A good form of money makes a the
end user be the one that wins. Because I wanted money in order
to be to make it easier to trade, in order to make it
easier to buy and and in order to make in order to save.
And if you then figure out, well, as an end user it's
probably best if the money that I use that I that I can choose
the money that I want to use that's one and and B or two that
it at least is something where I can store store value in through
time and through space so that I can spend it whenever and
wherever I want. That's basically because if I if
I sell something to you and you give me money and I don't
necessarily need or want to buy something else right now, then I
should be able to save what that money is worth, that the value
of that money over time, right? But now it dilutes.
Now over time it becomes worth less.
So that does not mean the number changes, but it buys less,
right? And so that's how, and I don't
know a lot about, like Kinesian and Austrian philosophy, but the
Kinesians say that's how the economy keeps going because
people are incentivized to spend it, right?
And eventually that turns into that.
That's their argument for continued growth, i.e.,
prosperity and their biggest argument against what you say,
right? Like, OK, now I should be able
to save it over time in the best asset in the world, which is
what we think Bitcoin, right? Then they say, yeah, OK, but if
you save it, like, why? Why would you spend it right.
Then, like, the economy grinds to a halt.
But I think then there's there's great arguments against that as
well, right? Like if my headphones are broken
and I need new ones, am I going to wait until there's another
price on them, like next week or the week after or no, I need
something now, right? Or like when you need food,
you're not going to wait until the bread is cheaper next week,
you know? So I think, and what I like,
this is really my thinking, but if someone comes with like such
a complex argumentation and this whole fucking story, right?
And then if you can, if your rebuttal can be so simple, then
in my mind, like the original argument is just so flawed.
Don't know, right? Like if you have to talk so much
to make your point, like then yeah, you're trying to, yeah,
then I think your original point is just not that strong, right?
Like you have to use all these fiddler.
Words like it's it's even stupid because there are so many things
that people need and want right now that they don't care they.
Couldn't even care if they want to care and to to buy it right
now. Because there are things we
especially need and want in order to stay alive.
And there are also things that people just want to do in their
lives. Like if you know how psychology
works, then you also quickly find out that that Keynesian
thing is only created. That narrative is created
because already everything is based on debt.
And if you if it's based on that, then then you indeed need
people to keep spending faster than normally in order to pay
for stuff that they don't actually want and need.
And now you come to the you get to the the foundational stuff
that we are philosophical stuff that we were talking about
earlier already. Why are people so disconnected?
Why are they so unhappy? Because of course, if the like
everything around them. Constantly keeps incentivizing
not only to spend money, but to feel them less whole if they
don't have it. Because that's what marketing
does. That's what advertising does.
That's what propaganda does, is you actually feel less whole if
you're constantly surrounded with people.
Or images or movies or advertisements will have more
than that you have. So now you suddenly start to
think you want something and therefore you buy it with money
that indeed becomes worth less. So you already have the
incentive underneath the money, but you have also the incentive
in the economic machine to keep spending for stuff you actually
don't want. Now you bought it.
You bought that bigger house, you bought that more beautiful
car and all the other stuff and shit you don't need.
Now. Of course this is how psychology
works. Now you are afraid that you
might lose it one day. So now you get anxiety.
Now you worry about losing your job because you might lose that
big house or that beautiful car or all that stuff that you think
actually makes you happy. Those expensive dinners?
No, you don't like the cheap ones anymore because you were
able to afford the expensive ones.
So you create a narrative that those expensive dinners are the
things that are make you happy. Now of course, now you start to
do more and more work to keep spending for those things, but
you don't like your work. You don't like your life as
well. You can really figure out a way.
Like if you keep going deeper into this narrative, you start
to believe, Damn, this goes so much deeper and it's so much
explanation, or at least parts of the explanations why people
are working so damn hard for things they actually do not
like. And and if you then start, if
you come back to the money for impress people that don't think
about them. Exactly, exactly.
Exactly like what do I give what someone else has or does not
have you. If you actually care about
something like that, if you actually feel you are a bigger
person, if you drive your in your audio or your BMW or
whatever and you think less of the people next to you that
drive a Toyota or whatever, then there's something inherently
wrong in your own self esteem already.
And that of course is, is is able, you can able to tie this
back to to the money part. So if you go like in short and
that's the last thing I say about this, if you think about
Austrian economics and you make money, you create real world
value and you get money in return, that's able to store
wealth through time and space, you are calm.
And now, because you work for it, you actually work for it,
you're going to think twice before you spend on something
stupid. So you will probably spend it on
something interesting, something that's going to become worth
more. So this is the argument, I
believe that when we have a good form of money, people will
definitely invest, but they think better and they invest in
better stuff to create a better. And and people will think about
what is the value of the thing I'm creating, right.
So the things that are being bought, the services, the
products. There's going to be way more
natural competition in upholding a higher quality, yes of these
services and products. Because the money is fair,
right? Because we are not incentivized.
If you can make cheap money, cheap money in the money that we
have now because you can spend it fast, like why would you
invest a lot? And have a high quality standard
for the product or service that you're offering, right?
So I think this is also what Safe Dean says about like short
time preference and long time preference, right?
Like the short time preference is okay, I got the money now.
Now I got to spend it on this stupid thing, you know, as you
mentioned and long time preferences.
All right, I did my best. I got this money.
I know I can this energy. I know I can save it.
Over time, I'm going to improve myself even better because I
actually get rewarded for my input.
Like what I put in is rewarded with something that is a fair
reward, I almost want to say. And now people are more
incentivized because the money is.
Is. Yeah, I just say cheap.
I don't know if that's the right word, but they are incentivized
to just do quick wins and whatever.
Like I see these YouTube ad roles like of these these people
who say like, oh, I made $30,000 with this PDF that I made with
Chet GPT and you can do it too, you know, like shit like that.
Like there's no value in that. I mean, well, I don't know if
you now live in the new house. I live in an older house, like I
have woodwork here. That you don't see anymore,
right? Like someone made a door and I
thought, I'm gonna make this even nicer like with these Nice.
Yeah, yeah. Just I don't know, I don't have
to say what the English word is, but like nice decoration, like
they spent more time on it. It's not like a 2 by 4 type of
door frame painted white, whatever.
And. That's kind of my thought around
this, right? Like if you can, if you can have
a long time preference, you can also actually do what you like
and become really good at that and find value in just doing
that thing. Being grateful that other people
appreciate what you make and like.
For me that like spiritually that would help also a lot of
people definitely. I think we would be happier 100%
and 2nd to if if we all are able to lower our time preference and
think about long term more, it will become easier and you will
become more at ease as well with who you are and you have more
time to figure out what you are, who you are and what you want
and with regard to what you can. Add in the world.
Also, exactly what is your yeah? Yeah, what's your added value
here? Yeah, and you understand that
added value doesn't come from nowhere.
You actually have to work sweat equity, right?
And so you will not quit within a year because you realize
something. Goodwill only come in 1234,
perhaps even longer. So you need to keep doing it,
keep studying, keep improving, keep networking, etc.
And with regard to the centralization and the banking
system and centralization of power, like you, you were
already talking about like an interesting argument that you
can say one thing and you already have dismissed actually
a whole theory, right? It's also like the one that also
impresses me is is like how is it fair that I have to work for
money that someone else can just print or create out of thin air?
Like in what world is that fair? And if you.
Wait, wait. Yeah.
So just even without the fair part, like, why do people work
for money that others can just print just that statement,
right? Yeah.
Why is it not made clear to us why that is?
Why don't we? The people who do the work?
Why don't we understand it? Right.
And just that, I think. It's nice also for the people
listening, like, think about like, if that triggers you, if
you think like, well, I don't really care, then OK, you know,
that's fine. Like there's no really better,
better or good in that sense. But if if there's even a remote
remotely somewhere I trigger like, yeah, that that does
indeed sound a bit strange. You know, like that that should
be the threat that you should, like, pull on, right?
Yeah. What you will find is not that
fun, right. But, but.
But. I 100% agree like just that
argument. It sounds so illogical that even
even if it would be a good thing, explain it to the people.
Educate people right. Like why do why do we do this?
Why does it work like this? And I think, well you and I went
to school in the same time, right?
And I think currently like nothing has changed.
But we never learned about this. Never you never You never learn
about this and. Why don't you learn about it?
About it? Because some people profit from
it and others do not, right? And that's not even in a
malicious way. It's just a natural way what we
talked about before. Like if something can, if a
system, a man made system. By the way, I think it's always
funny. Sorry, this is sidetrack.
But when I see Lagarde of you know, the EU or what's her name,
sorry, the. The ECB, when she says, yeah,
inflation came from nowhere and we are trying to tame this
monster. Like these words for me are so
ridiculous because I think this is a man made system.
This is not a natural system. This is a man made system,
right. So if something is a man made
system, how can you say, oh, I'm so overwhelmed by the
consequences of this man made system.
You know, we are trying to battle the inflation beast like
it's just it's it's so unfair to even say that, right?
Like it's so. Not taking your responsibility.
She didn't come up with this system, That's fine.
But you are still partially in charge at least of your part in
the system. So yeah, I find that so
interesting just listening to those words where people like
put that responsibility outside of themselves or outside of the
system or you know, because if you ask one question about.
You know how it ties in with the system then their entire
argumentation does kind of falls apart.
Yeah. And I think everyone that
listens is listening right now. Like one thing is it should be
aware as well that we probably you who are listening as well,
we are part of that system as well and we are also privileged,
right. That's important to realize.
Like I agree because that's what a printer does.
Like like you said in the beginning, the closer you are to
this money printer, the more access you have to cheap money
into capital. But to with cheap money, I don't
mean quote UN quote bad money. I mean we have a cheap way to
find the strongest money that there is, the dollars and the
EUR. And I've traveled the world
right, So I've seen all those broken currencies everywhere and
those people do not have access to the dollar easily to a cheap
dollar or to a cheap euro. So they have less availability,
less access to all this, this capital.
And that's what the system also does.
It has the energy that incentivizes centralization of
power more and more and more. And it's simply because they can
create money for the ones that they like and they don't create
money for the ones they don't like.
Therefore you see a constantly growing wealth inequality not
only within borders but also within nations and therefore
you. It's it's difficult for other
countries or also for people who are not like close to the money
printer to be themselves, to become that person they really
want to be, to also live up to their dreams.
It it definitely is a lot more difficult for 99% of the world
than to us. And of course you can think
okay. Well, that's my luck of course,
but you can also think about okay.
Why is this not transparent? And that's why we keep ending up
at the transparency part. You were just mentioning why?
If it's if it's a good thing, fine.
If you think we have to be ruled by this financial system, that's
OK. But if I'm then in the
university or at school, teach me why, then teach me why.
And be honest about it, because then you can make the argument
that it's actually a better system, for example, than
Bitcoin. But now they just, how do you
say rip it on the rub it, rub it under the carpet and they don't
talk about it? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's a translation. They just ignore it basically.
Yeah, right. It's just not there.
I agree. But it's also not there, I
think, because most people don't have or take the time to
actually try to understand it and research and what we talked
about like challenge themselves so.
Yeah, I think it's just hard, but I think it's a really good
point what you say about privilege.
Like even we are closer to the money printer than someone in
South Africa or Lebanon or whatever, right.
So we 100% have more benefits from yeah being close and in a
very rich country and being close to the to the your own
this case, right. So I think that's a fair point.
I also kind of see it and that's what I experienced also when.
I talk with people about Bitcoin when I tell them, like, OK,
yeah, I really think you should study this or buy Bitcoin or
whatever. Like, I've sent these text
messages to my friends in caps at 5K.
You buy one fucking Bitcoin right now.
Please. I love you.
Please. And it's not.
It's not even because I have Bitcoin and enterprise goes up.
Like, I feel it's a really altruistic thing.
Like I love these people. I don't want to show them and
tell them and help them, right. So I also think back to your
privilege part, like the other side of that, like doing this
podcast or what do you do with your company?
Like it's just. I think we think we are good
already. So we are now trying to help and
educate others. You know, like we already see
it, but but we want others to see it as well.
And yeah, I can honestly say that for me that that is not
about the number go up thing. That's more about you know get
out of the other thing. That is what motivates me,
right. So I think that is also a nice
realization. But also I think a good thing
also to say and share that, yeah, I sometimes talk to people
and they say, well you only tell me because you want the number
go up and then I think that's just your that's projection.
That's you. Yeah.
That's your projection, right? That's you talking.
I know it's not fun what? I'm sharing you.
Duh. I went through this as well.
But yeah, I really think I'm coming from.
Yeah, like an altruistic motivation here.
Also because I realized that I can actually do it.
Well, it's 11 AM on the Tuesday and we are recording this
podcast, so that is hopefully our contribution.
Because we were already lucky, you know?
Yeah, I do realize I'm privileged.
And I do realize I have the ability to help others either
with the podcast or with the company, or with just simply
helping people sharing information and insights.
I fully agree it's altruistic with me.
Also, of course they believe you want to pump your bags.
But I do not believe that if I orange bill like 100 people or
200 or 500 that I actually pump my bags, right?
There's nothing happening if I will do that.
So that's not my motivation. The motivation is like I, I I
honestly feel that I this, this I I want a more honest system.
Even if that means that the Netherlands where we live, will
be less rich If if it means that actually.
And if it's going to be more honest, which means everyone
that actually produces real world value, that person wins.
That's what I think is capitalism, the one that
produces real world value to another.
That person is allowed to win, and I want people to win as
well. And if they are winning, save
that value in something that stores it in a right manner.
So yeah, we we need to figure out a way to make sure that
people don't feel that that anger or anxiety and they don't
project their own fears and their own selfish selfishness
unto us when we are sharing that information.
But it will be a long journey because I am thinking about this
out loud. If someone tells to me like your
mom is corrupt and I know my mom for a very long time, I don't
like it right. I don't like it.
And I don't believe it. I don't believe because I know
my mom better than this person, I would say.
And even if they show me pictures, I say those pictures
safe, sorry, are fake. The same is true, I guess a
little bit for money. If you've if you were able to
trust your government for 20304050 years plus always they
did the right thing and the money was, quote UN quote, good
enough because it was all on the background.
All that inflation was on the background.
You weren't all at schools. Nobody shared information about
it. And then suddenly when you're 50
years old, you hear that the money you have been using and
are using is corrupt or sorry. That word is not that good.
Then of course you say no. What?
Are you talking here? Let's say inferior.
And you oh, you are a Bitcoin maxi or you're only about
pumping your bags. I understand that respond very
well. So it will take some time and I
think we as long as we keep pushing the right questions and
on the right buttons, we will be able to show them the difference
between this transparent system and this not transparent system.
Yeah. And I think we kind of touched
upon this already, but I also wanted to ask, like, what does
Bitcoin say about the concept of trust in our society?
Like I think, I think we talked about this in a sense that well,
this projection or what you just mentioned, right, like just the
response of people, but also yeah.
And I'm thinking why I just mentioned this whole thing about
being altruistic just now. Like I I almost find it sad that
I have to explain that. Yeah, right.
Yeah, maybe you shouldn't. Maybe you shouldn't.
Maybe you just like like next time when someone believes it,
like, I just let it slide because I come to this point, I
truly don't care. I truly don't care anymore what
people think of me. So of course there are still
moments that I'm a little bit more weak or that I'm weaker and
or that someone makes an impression on me and I want to
be make him or her impressed as well about me.
That I I I think about it a little bit more but in general I
I, I, I begin to lose that feeling that I want to impress
other people. So if they actually believe that
I'm not doing this from the right spot, OK, you know, leave
it. I don't have time anymore for
those people. And I don't want to convince
people. I just want to help people that
want to be helped. So maybe next time, and I say to
myself as well, that's why I'm thinking out loud.
Next time when people gives me that feeling that I'm doing it
for myself or to make money or whatever, okay, fine, leave it.
You're not for me. I'm not for you.
Next. And yeah, you shouldn't be able
to tell that you come from a good place if you know for
yourself. I come from a good place.
Yeah, that you are. Exactly, exactly.
Yeah, I agree. So what?
What was the belief that made you not get into Bitcoin when
you first encountered it? Like, what was holding you back?
Well, the first time when someone was sharing it with me,
it was 2016 and I guess Ethereum came around in 2017 and people
were making money with it like in a very fast manner.
And I was always raised that that's impossible, right?
That's impossible. So what goes up quickly must
come down quickly as well. It probably is a scam.
So that was the reason why I just ignored it for a very, very
long time until I met a spiritual spiritual teacher and
he made me aware of it. However, he made me also aware
of crypto as a as a beautiful part of the growing society.
So I had to unlearn that as well.
But the beginning phase was just me thinking, well, this can be
real, it's Internet money, this can be real.
And I also wasn't aware of the global financial system yet.
Enough to understand inflation enough.
So I did not believe that something with a maximum supply
would be a better solution for something that's not even a
problem, because that was what I believe in 2017.
There we don't need a solution because it's not a problem,
because I was not that good informed about what happened in
2008 and 2009 yet. Do you also think that's the
main thing that people need to unlearn before they can
understand Bitcoin? I would say that, and that's why
I post relentlessly, relentlessly about the financial
system in general, not about Bitcoin, about inflation, and
about how this is a problem already and could become a way
bigger problem for almost all countries on earth.
So yes, I really believe that if you truly understand what
inflation is and a little bit how the system works, that you
do believe there needs to be a solution to this.
Just to solve the fact that people cannot save their wealth.
Just to solve the fact that people do not need to spend
their money right away in order to prevent it from losing value
only a year after. Yes, I do believe, because then
you can start by dribbling down to society and why we are all
buying things and working for things you actually do not need,
like or love. Yeah, yeah, I do.
I do think that. Yeah, you.
Yeah, That's a good question. I first thought I have is like
you need to actually accept that you don't know everything and
that what you think you know is just taught to you.
I think it's also easier actually to realize this when
you have children because, well, at least for me, like I.
I once had this thing he was playing here on the on the
carpet and he did something and I I don't know I kind of snapped
or I said something and he totally ignored me.
But then I thought them, this sounds like my mother.
And so I realized that, you know, I think it's just a funny
example, but more like, yeah, how you are is also how, yeah,
you were taught to be from anything that you consumed,
whether it's from your parents or your friends or stuff you
watched. Or like when we were younger, we
were on the Internet all the time.
You know, like it's you, you shape yourself unconsciously in
a certain way. And I'm also thinking, of
course, this, this podcast is called Bitcoin for millennials.
You know, they are a bit older. I'm also thinking like, and I
cannot speak for people who are like 2567, but I think it's just
harder to have this kind of like internal conversation or
challenge, you know, like how are my programs, you know?
Again, not in a bad way. I think when I say that
sometimes people could think like, oh, that you're
programmed. Or you're.
Yeah. Well, you are.
It is. You are.
Yeah. Yeah.
Those are the words. Like, I cannot change it.
Like, I really think and I've experienced that children are so
pure. They are so open and honest and
really connected to their self. Right.
And yeah, we mess them up. Yeah, we do our best, but we do
mess them up and they're gonna mess themselves up because
they're going to make narratives in their own head just like we
did. Just like everyone does, right?
And at one point, and personally, I'm definitely not
there fully, but I'm working on it.
Like, OK, what do I actually want to adopt?
What do I want to keep? What do I want to discharge?
You know, like what do I want to throw away from my system?
And my like the term software in that sense like how you are
programmed, you know, and I I think to start is understanding
that you don't know everything that you are actually
programmed. And also yeah, maybe have even
one thing of which you are like, yeah, I just don't want, I don't
want to be like that anymore. Like that's just something that
I yeah, why is that part of me? Like I don't want that anymore.
And that's I think where you start to kind of learn that
process, like understanding that you are a certain way accepting
that you cannot change it like what that is, but also
understanding that you can exchange it basically for
something else. And once you go through that
with two or three things, then I think it becomes easier to be
open for, yeah, other information that is challenging,
you know, however you think you are or few or you know, however
you want to define that. So I think, I think that's the
start. It's not necessarily about a
certain type of subject you need to unlearn, but it's more about,
yeah, really, it starts with yourself.
Yeah, well, to add to that, like I think we should be aware, all,
all of us should be aware. So this is for us as well.
People in general don't like change, right?
And there's a reason for it because it's way more easier to
not change. So all if you if you learn how
the connections in your brain work and once those connections
are there, those are the shortcuts.
And the shortcuts of course creates this habitual behavior
and we don't like to change it because it takes effort, energy,
time to to reconnect various part of our brains to create
different behavior or to create different theories or to create
different identity, yada yada. So thinking about that and think
about what you just said. Yes, you have to start with
yourself and yourself only. Then become aware probably but
the fact that you two are a human being, you two are
programmed, you two don't like change.
And if you are able to omit that, then that's a battle like
how you describe it. It sounds like a battle.
Yeah, but it sort of is because your subconscious thought
patterns. And all the the connections,
they are all automatically created, right?
So it's not you doing this on purpose, it's like it's it's it
overcomes you, it just happens And you create automatically all
those connections that you don't even want to create because they
are not helpful. They're not beneficial to your
end goal of being happy. So therefore I was thinking
about that like. The inflation part and the
financial system part, you actually need some kind of
necessity, some kind of red lights.
Oh my God, I need to change. So I fully agree with what you
say. You only want to change if you
go within and you feel what's up, because then you feel
something that's not making you happy.
And that's probably the energy you need to change.
And I guess the same holds true a little bit for.
Diving deeper into Bitcoin, being more open minded to study
it or to buy it and to transact with it, you do need to be aware
of what kind of problems it solves or the necessity we have
in the world right now. And therefore, I really believe
that if we keep sharing all those insights and information,
more and more people coincidentally will be hearing
that, listening to that, reading that exactly at the right time.
Yes, that's it. Yes, Now I get it and now I see
why I have to study it. Prior to this, I did not
understand it and now I do. So I I guess that's that's I
feel what my role is going to be because I I also see and then
I'm done. I also see that people don't
particularly like it to go within like actually meditate or
sit still on the chair and be with yourself.
Most people don't like it because it's like the naked
truth. Right.
So also to expect that from people is also probably a long
road ahead I guess. Yeah, I agree.
Yeah. What really helped me is more
like a rational thing to really believe that short term pain
over long term gains, that everything that gives you
resistance, everything that gives you well your subconscious
a signal to say like no, no, don't, don't do that.
It's actually the thing that you should do, right.
And it says that because what you mentioned like nobody wants
change. Nobody wants to be confronted
with the fact that they. Well, my realization at the bank
story, for example, that I lived for, you know, 12/10/12 years in
adult life and had no clue what I was doing.
Yeah, that's not a fun realization, man.
Like that's that's no fun. But it is what it is, right.
And and you can say, like, OK, I'm, I'm going to do nothing and
I'm going to keep this fault in my head like I'm stupid.
I'm unaware Yadida. Or I just take take this loss,
this experience basically, and learn from it and and see how
and if I can change it. And to do that, yes, you have to
do work that's actual, yeah work, it's hard and it's, it's
an internal battle. So for me that rationale to just
keep repeating like you know, short term pain over long term,
you know results in long term. Gains essentially you know like
that that that is that is just that is just it yeah that's like
a little tool you know to. Sort of Brain hacks.
Sort of Brain hack. Well said.
It's like the the simple sentences that you can remind
yourself of. Is definitely how you can hack
that habitual subconscious behavior.
So that's a really good example, by the way.
Yeah, thanks. So when someone says what is
Bitcoin and why should I care? What is your go to?
What's the snippet? What's the pitch?
Try me. Yeah.
Well, I would start and of
course it depends on the person, but I would start with something
like it's the death of the ego of capital, right?
So that's, that's what I like the most about it.
It's the decentralized nature and the fact that nobody can
control it, nobody can change it, nobody can dilute it, nobody
can devalue it. That's what it gives it power.
And then of course, because it has a maximum supply that people
cannot change, so because we are inherently corrupt.
So we need something that people cannot influence.
Well, there you go, Bitcoin. And since inflation is the
biggest problem of the current situation in the global
financial system, we need something that cannot be
inflated. There you go, Bitcoin.
And because it has a maximum supply and a monetary policy
that's fully transparent, everyone, every single person in
every business can create their own Financial Policy based on
something really transparent. So you remove all the excuses.
It's only you and your business, you and your personal life.
And now that whole victim mindset that I hate by the way.
So that's what we can remove from from lots of people like
that victim mindset. It's not there anymore in this
world. You actually can create whatever
you want to create in the world of Bitcoin.
It's up to you. There's no money printer.
There's no central authority that says you don't have access
and you do have access. No create real world value.
And that's what I like. I see so many feel people around
me, they make way too much money without delivering any value.
And then I see people who do deliver value and they don't
make money in various parts of the world.
Now you have me questioning what is going on.
And therefore, I would say the answer is Bitcoin fixes that and
I really believe it. So that's my, I would say thing
that I would say to someone, This is why you should care.
Yeah. Yeah, I love it.
One thought to tie back to what we just talked about is that it
basically forces accountability. Yeah, right.
When I talk to my friend who I want to orange Bill about
Bitcoin or, well, this is another one I try, they have
enough money and I'm trying to like get them in.
But he says, OK, if I have a million in Bitcoin, I have to
guard it. Like I have to safe keep it,
right. And then I say, yeah, that's the
whole point. But just that, right?
That that accountability is something he has never
experienced in his life, right. So that is hard.
It's hard to adopt that. And I hear that back in what you
just said, like this will force accountability.
You actually have to deliver value to receive value, which I
would agree sounds very daunting in well, at least the Western
world. I think in other parts of the
world, yeah, people have no other choice than to be
accountable, right? Because it's way harder to find
food, for example. So you have to actually do shit
you don't want to do. And my take away from that is
that sounds daunting, but I do think you and I at least both
believe. And it would also be daunting
for me, if I'm really honest. But I do think we both believe
the rationale behind this is that that will make you a
happier human, yes. That you know you will be more
proud of doing the work and accomplishing or getting
rewarded for that and being able to do buy something else or
trade that for something. That's like I think people will
be more proud and more happy. Although the first you know the
the term forced accountability sounds very daunting in the.
Sense. Yeah.
And I still believe that if you want to, like keep your money at
a bank, like, by all means do. People should, however be more
educated about what happens behind the scenes, what you were
talking about fractional reserve banking, so the money isn't
there. So do realize there's risk
involved. And that risk is real.
And it's seriously real in other countries of the of the world,
right? Less real in in the Netherlands
right now. Now, so I do believe like, OK,
so you already know lots of things that were in the news the
last decades of people losing their money at the banks.
So now you have a solution to that.
That means that if it still happens to you, because now
you're if you have listened to this podcast, you're now
educated, you now know about the risk at the banks, and you know
now that Bitcoin is in your own custody and you have to perform
full accountability in order to store it safely.
So if you then choose to keep it on the bank even though you are
educated, then it's not up to you to complain.
If this bank goes bankrupt, you're not in the victim mindset
anymore. You cannot say, yeah, I had
$200,000 or I had a million. Now it's a choice.
Yeah, it's.
A choice. So I don't care anymore if it
happens to you because you were educated.
I do care if it happens to people who are uneducated.
So therefore I we educate. However, that victim mindset is
gone. You're not allowed to complain
about banks if they lose your money, if you had the choice to
hold your own money. So it makes life easier.
It make life easier, right? For everyone and anywhere,
everywhere around the world. But if you choose to not do it,
I understand it as well. And then trust your bank and pay
them for it. That's what happens.
Yeah, I agree. And so it's fine if you do that.
Obviously everyone has a free choice.
But you do have to understand, I like what you said about risk
and I want to repeat it as well. Like the money in the bank is
not risk free, right, It's you loan it to the bank and they
will try. That's their business model.
They will try to make more of that.
When they make more of that, you don't see any upside.
Only their shareholders will see the upside.
When they lose the money and the bank goes bust, either your
money is gone or if it's insured up until a certain amount, you
will get the money, you will get the numbers back.
But that money will come from the government, which comes from
the citizens. So it eventually it comes from
you anyway, You know that is just how it works.
There's no judgment in that, like that is just how it works.
But if you understand that there's a very big risk factor
that's attached to following this, that's also why the banks
ask you questions. If you want to take more than
10K20K out of the bank because they can loan out 10 times more.
So you basically take away a part of their business model of
their cash flow. If you take that what you own, I
think that's also a very important thing like
conceptually this is your property, right?
How or why does a third party ask you what are you going to
use this money that you already earned and pay taxes on?
What are you going to use that for?
Like, how is that their business, right?
And again, like for me, that's another like thing of this
system that just comes out when you talk about it.
That just makes absolutely no sense.
But they ask it because the system works in a certain way
and you have no understanding about the fact that it works
like that. So to tie that back into what
you said, if you just follow this system and put your money
in the bank and all these things, fine.
But make sure that you understand how it works and what
the implications are. And if you then still think it's
fine, then you know, fine, You know it's okay.
That's totally, it's totally okay.
Do it. Do it like it's super fine.
Yeah. And and also of course, and I
mean, we also have money in the bank because we have to pay for
food and and and things. So it did.
Sorry to add one thing, I don't think this is like an anti bank
thing or whatever. The bank is just a part of how
the system works and of course we use it and we all have bank
accounts. So it's not anti bank or
whatever, this is anti bad money this yes and that's what it's
about. And I want to add, the thing
that I want to add is yes, it's anti money.
It's not anti bank at all because they provide services
that people love, like and use, which is fine.
I agree. I do believe that and needed by
the. Way how they've started, Yes,
and needed for companies and all these things.
Yes. And by the way, like the.
You the education part here is also to understand that if you
do a little bit of history lessons and I did a lot of those
regarding to money, it's we are in fact in the end of a long
term debt cycle and that's important to realize and it's
not only the end of a long term debt cycle, the last like the
last long term debt cycle likes 80 to 100 years or so.
It's like if you look further down back in time, you also see
that every time when we blew stuff up, banks run into trouble
the first okay. So the risk that normally is the
risk that the bank takes by lending out your money to
someone else, to help people invest, to lend out, to buy a
house and if those these persons or these people cannot.
Return the money then you, that's the risk that you don't
get your money back. Those risks are small when we
are in good times right now. So now we turn into less good
times. But importantly, more
importantly, I would say the long term debt cycle is really
getting to an end. And if you then see what
happened in history like for thousands of years, you saw
actually that we returned back to hard forms of money.
So people lose. Trust day by day, year by year,
decade by decade in that paper money part.
And in that end cycle, you do see that banks run into trouble
first? So take that with you in the
educational part. It's not only the risk that they
always have. The banks, you could argue that
they now have higher risks because people have less faith
in money if there's more inflations globally.
So that means that you especially should be aware right
now and not keep all the money at one bank account.
Probably yes, because the most insurance is only one account on
one bank. So if you have more than certain
amount, like more money than what the insurance covers, you
need more, more bank accounts. Yeah, I fully agree with what
you say. And especially in this time, you
know, there have been like some publications or news like news
messages about, you know, a bank run at this day and age, you
know, could be way worse because it's all digitally, etc, etc,
right. There's not going to be a line
at the bank for people who want the cash currently that that
would probably not even be possible because the cash is not
in a bank, which is also just interesting to.
But, but I I wonder what will happen if if more and more
people realize that, yeah, perhaps the money is not as safe
as they fought in the bank and they want to move it to
whatever, whether it's Bitcoin or whatever.
You know the, the, the let's call it the system is going to
have a real problem because if they are going to say well you
cannot take your money out right like now how they are asking
questions when you take out 1010K or more.
Then more and more people will think like, hey this doesn't
sound right, you know, like how how does this actually work?
So yeah, I'm, I'm, I don't want to say excited, but I'm
intrigued by by what is going to come because yeah, what you
mentioned about debt cycle in America, like obviously we don't
live in America, but America at least the money is everywhere.
So we are definitely also downstream from any anything
that could possibly blow up in America.
And yeah, that's why I think maybe this is a nice one to end
it with. That's why people say Bitcoin is
a life raft, right? Like it's a lifeboat.
It's at least something outside of a current system that could
potentially again, right, no investment advice, etc.
Help you protect yourself from a flawed system that we currently
use. Definitely as a release valve.
To me, it's a release valve. It's going to suck up value.
Where the older system is slowly dying, the new system will suck
value, and of course that goes up and down until the old system
dies faster. So I agree with that and I also
believe the last thing I think that the dollar, even though it
will probably blow up in the States as well, I guess that the
dollar will suck up more value than the euro.
So in that case, even if it blows up over there, I I worry
about what happens in Europe as well.
I don't think that the euro will survive or has better chance to
survive than the dollar. So in that sense, I think
there's a lot, a lot to say about that as well, but maybe
for another time. But please do realize that if it
blows up in the States, Europe is not better off at all.
No, I agree. OK, right.
Very last question. And I ask everyone what's a core
belief that you will never let go?
A core belief that I will never let go.
Well, that's probably something. That's an odd topic right now as
well, that biologically we only have a man and a woman.
Okay. Well, let's see how far we get
with this podcast now. All right, man.
Thanks so much. I love.
I love this conversation. I think, yeah, very different
than what I thought up front. But I really like this
philosophical and spiritual angle, as I also do really see
that as part of the Bitcoin journey.
So thanks a lot. And yeah, like could you share
where people can find you, follow you?
Yeah, to hear more from you. Yeah, I'm always on LinkedIn, so
my name, of course, Mark with A C von Versandal.
And I'm on Twitter as well, so you will find me at the same
name probably, so please follow me there.
I have a company cryptounseen.com.
cryptounseen.com of course created to share people what
crypto is in fact all about instead of all the scam stories
that most have heard about. And in that community, we of
course share all the macroeconomic and geopolitical
insights and of course the philosophical insights that we
discussed today. So if you're interested in
connecting with me, you can find me in those places.
Awesome man. And so much thank you.
Very well. You did a great job soon.
Yes. And we see each other soon.
Thank you very much. Cheers man.
Bye. I hope you enjoyed this episode.
If you did, it would be amazing if you could rate, review and
subscribe on the podcast platform of your choice.
It will help us educate more millennials on the importance of
Bitcoin. You can follow and connect with
me on Twitter. I'm Bramk.
That's at Bramk. And if you are or know someone
who has an interesting perspective on Bitcoin that's
worth sharing, hit me up. I read and reply to every single
message. I appreciate your support and
hope you'll be here for the next episode.
Thanks for listening. Bye.
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