All right, hey there. This is from Constant and you're
listening to Bitcoin for Millennials.
In this episode, I'm joined by AMI Edberg.
She is a Swedish TikTok influencer and Bitcoin educator
dedicated to sharing insights and demonstrating that Bitcoin
is more than just a digital currency.
Her mission is to educate and inspire a global audience about
Bitcoins value. And beyond social media, she's a
board member of the Swedish Bitcoin Association and manages
customer relationships, education and partnerships at
Sweden's leading Bitcoin exchange BTC X.
So welcome, Amy. Thank you, thank you for having
me. It's so fun because this
interest they always make me smile like an idiot.
Why? This is what you do.
I know, it's crazy. Right.
Well, I think it's fun actually that you're obviously way
younger than I am and you're super active on Tiktok.
I have like a Tiktok account where I was like, OK, I'm going
to start some Bitcoin content. I never really got started with
it. I think I also have the
millennial pause, by the way. You know what that is?
Yeah. Like the the Gen.
Z people, like they just start filming and talking and
millennials, they click record and then they wait like and, and
to see like, is it really recording?
And then they start talking. I don't know if you ever saw it,
but once someone told me, I could not Unsee it anymore.
And I was like, damn, this is what I do like checking it to
read the record. So I appreciate your tech talk
efforts and, and we're going to talk about that because I'm
interested to hear like, you know, are you reaching people
and, and what are they saying? But I first wanted to start when
I mentioned it already. I think you're 22 three.
I turned 23 last week, so oh. Wow, Congrats.
Yeah. So you're part of of Gen.
Z, like how do you experience talking about finance,
economics, Bitcoin, etcetera with with your generation?
It's a good question. Like talking about finance and
Bitcoin is not really that difficult.
I feel like the hard part is getting people to understand.
I would say that like, like the whole generation, we care a lot
about finances and economy, but in a way, like honestly in a way
that we haven't done before. But I kind of feel like a lot of
people focus on the wrong thing. So like the focus is more on on
the on the individual part. And it's often like get to get
rich quick, if you know what I mean.
So every time I mention Bitcoin, that's usually like where the
focus ends up, like how to get rich, When will I get rich if I
buy Bitcoin? How much should I invest?
So like talking Bitcoin in, in this generation, like that's not
difficult. But the difficult thing is to
make people understand that Bitcoin is like so much more
than just an an investment that you can get rich from.
Yeah. Yeah, it's funny, right?
Because Bitcoin is not a get rich quick scheme.
It's a do not get poor scheme, right?
Like. It's like every time someone is
like OK but how? How do I get money fast?
I'm always like OK buy buy your shit coin come talk to me later.
Yeah, exactly. You got a shit coin before you
before you Bitcoin. But where where do you think
people get this get rich quick attitude from?
Like is that is that the culture or?
I think it's the probably the culture I don't know.
But they would realize it's not realistic, I think.
Probably. But then when you talk about it
like what? What do they say When you say
like, well Bitcoin is not a get rich quick scheme?
Well a lot of people are like it's not a non any ID for me
like to buy Bitcoin. I'm too late that I will never
make money of this. So that's like the kind of
approach that I get when when I'm trying to talk about Bitcoin
in like an investment part. Yeah.
And so then it must also be hard to go beyond that part, right?
Like for them to see everything else about Bitcoin?
Yeah, probably. But like, I think the hardest
part is to make people understand that Bitcoin is more
than an investment. And then you're like, what is it
then? And it's so hard for people to
to like grasp the Bitcoin as a solution because they don't have
that much knowledge about our current monetary system.
Yeah, yeah. So they don't see the problem,
right? I think, I think that's in
general a problem for us, right? People who are very passionate
about Bitcoin and we start talking about it, you know, like
most people don't really realize that they have a problem.
And I think, you know, you're from Sweden and I'm from the
Netherlands. Like we, we live in countries
where, yeah, I don't know, like the money just works, right?
When you were younger, you got some coins and you went to a
store and you bought something. I was like OK, this thing works.
I, I usually say that like in my generation, I represent a
generation where like we believe that a blip with our Visa or
MasterCard that solves all of our problems.
Yeah, funny. Yeah, it's interesting.
So when you go on TikTok and you share your videos, what type of
engagement do you get? Like are there, I mean,
sometimes on YouTube here, like I get people that reply like,
hey, you got me into this part of Bitcoin or that or you got me
studying, you know, and I always think that's nice to hear
because I don't I don't think you can orange bill someone
else, right? Like they need to get interested
and then study. Like how is that on on TikTok?
It's, it's actually so amazing. I had women in a Bitcoin
workshop just a week ago and it was this girl that came up to me
and she said that you know that I'm like in Bitcoin now because
of you. And like I, I still can't grasp
that. Like just the fact that I know
that I like, I, I orange pill people.
I know that because that's the reason why people people follow
me on TikTok or Twitter, but just when it was in person, like
when someone someone come up to you like that, that that made me
so happy. But well, I believe that, like,
the reason that I started with the with, with the TikTok is I,
I think that I understand like the significance of, of Bitcoin
and like when you start to grasp that, you kind of feel like
compelled to share that knowledge with others.
So like, I have a lot of friends, but every time I try to
speak about Bitcoin, like, no, no one was listening.
And who, who am I to blame them? Because I walked in their shoes.
And I think that I realized that in in in my generation, the
problem is the lack of knowledge, like I mentioned,
like you won't see the the solution if you don't understand
the problem, but also like the the this interesting in in
learning. So yes, I just mentioned you
have to like start at at the other end.
I might be generalizing now, but I feel like we bitcoiners were
so good, like me included at throwing information at the, the
people that were talking to the people that were trying to
orange pill. But like I recently understood
that it's, it's not in human nature to understand a solution
if you don't grasp the problem. And this comes with everything.
So I, I, I took this example. If if you put a vacuum cleaner
in front of a person and they have no idea what a vacuum
cleaner is, they won't understand how to use it because
like you won't understand how to use a vacuum cleaner if you
don't understand that the problem is that you don't want a
dirty floor and you won't understand the problem.
And no, no, not the problem. The solution of watering can.
If you don't understand that, the problem is that like your
flower is going to die if you don't water it.
So you won't fully understand because potential unless you see
how monetary our how broken our current monetary system is.
So yeah, I guess that like, it was the gap in knowledge that
made me realize that, like, this is people that should be aware
of this, they should be aware on like how our current monetary
system works. So while my friends were like
uploading videos on Tiktok while they were dancing, like I did
that as well, dancing and doing their makeup, I realized that,
hey, this is an opportunity to talk about Bitcoin because how
do you orange peel your generation?
Yeah, you go where they are and they're watching Tiktok.
So, but like, I feel like the comments are both first, they
were like pretty negative. And it was also like, you're a
girl. What?
What can you tell me about Bitcoin?
And I think that motivated me to be like, OK, let me show you
what I can teach you about Bitcoin.
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Now let's get back to the conversation.
Yeah, I love that. Yeah.
I, I 100% feel the same as like you're, you feel the urge to to
talk with other people about it, right?
And unlike you start with your friends and you hope they can
see it too. But I think what you said was
great. Like you've been in their shoes
as well, right? But, and, and we'll talk a bit
about like your journey into Bitcoin.
But like for me after 10 years, like I cannot really retrace my
own steps, right? And sometimes I hear myself say
things where I'm like, oh, wow, this is where I'm at now in my
thinking, you know, as in wow, OK, Like I'm, I'm, I'm again
like 2 steps further or something like that, right?
And so it's hard to kind of like pinpoint how, how I eventually
got here with a certain understanding and like urged to
tell other people. But I also learned along the way
I have to stop overloading them with information, right?
Like, it's, it should be the other way around.
Like, you should start asking questions, you know, and you
can, you can talk about, you know, of course you can share
information. But when you ask questions, you
know, then you invite people, you show interest and you invite
other people to actually think about.
Well, yeah, what do I think about this subject, right.
I had, we had friends over like 2 weeks ago and I was, I was
talking to them and ended up on Bitcoin or crypto or whatever.
And this guy was like, he was the boyfriend of my girlfriend's
best, best friend. And I met him for the first
time. And so he talked about crypto
and stuff. Yeah, he said, yeah, yeah, I was
in that. But I sold it all.
And now I'm doing, I don't know, S&P 500 ETF or something.
And I just started asking questions like, OK, you know,
which companies carried S&P 500? You know what, what is the
return of the S&P 500 over the past five years?
Like do you know how much Bitcoin is?
Etcetera. And he he didn't know the
answers, so I said, OK, but then you're investing in something
that you don't really understand.
He's like, well, yeah, well, apparently that's what I'm
doing, you know, no, But then like, it's, I think that way.
And I'm, it's hard for me because I just love to like
preach it or something, you know?
And then, but so, but I actually by asking the questions, it also
helps me reframe my own answers to the questions, right.
And be kind of like, like learn how other people react or answer
and then like try to shape my like my goal with, you know,
what their answers are to me. So it's also I, I, I try to look
at it as like a fun exercise. And then at the end he asked me
like, you know, have we talked for an hour?
And he's like, how could you send me like these in these
podcast episodes or what's that book you mentioned?
And then I think like, wow, that's great, right?
I think that's the only goal we can have is that someone is
like, exactly right. Like I'm intrigued.
I'm, I'm, I'm going to go for it.
And so when, when people reply on TikTok, right?
Like what are some misconceptions that that you
get? And like how, how do you address
them? Like when when people say you
know, it's boiling the oceans or whatever.
Like I, I think the biggest like misunderstanding about Bitcoin
is probably that you have to be technical to understand Bitcoin.
And like, no, you don't. You do not have to be technical
to understand Bitcoin. Look at me like I'm I'm just a
normal girl living in Sweden and I wasn't technical at all when I
started to learn about Bitcoin. So like I think that's an that's
also a very important misunderstanding because that
scares people away from Bitcoin. So for example, you don't
question how your phone works, right?
You just use it so and most of our like the people around us,
they don't question the use of our monetary system, but you
still choose to trust it. So when the computer arrived,
that was the thing that was super complex and when the
Internet arrived, that was super complex.
And now we think that's super easy.
So like when it comes to Bitcoin, I think that we will
grow into that, whether we like it or not, but also the meaning
that like we talked about that people think that Bitcoin is
just an investment or it's just a digital currency.
And Bitcoin is so much more than just a, a digital currency.
It's like, for me, Bitcoin is a symbol of financial innovation
and freedom. And Bitcoin's value isn't in
it's like physical form, but it the value lies in the ability to
like pioneer new pads and open new doors to a decentralized
borderless economy. So yeah, the the biggest
misunderstanding is that Bitcoin is just money a bit Bitcoin is
for sure money, but it's money that we can use as a value
keeper as well. And like, that's the future of
how we perceive and how we can like look back at value again.
Yeah, well, it's actual money, like what the what the call of
money is, right. But there again, like, well,
that's of course why Robert Breedlove has what is the what
is money show. You know, I think and and again,
like for us in a Western country, we never question what
is money, right. And so even even kind of poking
at, you know, if someone says, well, Bitcoin is too technical,
if someone if you don't ask, well, can you explain to me how
the central Bank of Sweden works?
Yeah, there's probably also not an answer, right?
But but just being being curious about that, when someone starts
talking about that, I think that is already an interesting
experience or like the tension that you create there, right?
Because they could be like, you know, what are you talking
about? Or they can be very surprised
when you tell them how central banking works, right?
Or that you know, the numbers in your banking app are not even
really there, like not not as you remember from the comic
books. You know that there's like a
safe with golden coins and all these things like it's not
there, it's fake, right? Like that is already you don't
that that's even before you would probably talk about
Bitcoin, you were already touching upon those things that
they never even questioned in their life, right?
So when when you talk about the subjects and you say these
things, that's already like a little bomb for people, right?
Like it's, it's difficult. It is, yeah.
And so how did you get into Bitcoin?
Well, I think that like looking at this question, I think that a
lot of like people's Bitcoin stores actually begins before
they actually know it. If you ask me this question like
1 1/2 year ago, I would probably say that my Bitcoin journey
began in 2021. But I'm a white person.
Like I find myself in every situation asking why.
So like that made me realize that OK, in 2021 I found an
interest for Bitcoin, but why did I do that?
So now I would actually say that my Bitcoin journey began in
2011. And that can sound pretty weird
because I was only 10 years old. But that was the first time in
my life where like I find myself in, I find myself facing
experiences that were completely new to me.
So for the first time in my life, I saw and I experienced
poverty, for example. And now I'm not talking about
like, the kind of poverty where people still have roof over
their heads. I'm talking about like, I saw
the kind of poverty where people walk around in the desert asking
for even a drop of water. So I saw that, but I also
experienced the big contrasts that exists in Egypt.
So like, for example, you know, the big temples and the gold
chests and everything that comes with the ancient Egypt.
So I think like even then, even though I was so small, I began
to ask myself why, like, why did we end up in a society that
looks like this? Because the problem for sure
isn't the people. They, they look so kind.
And it took me years to understand that, no, it's not
the people who's broken it, it's the system.
So the system is broken and but, but the people are the one who
suffers. Like the our monetary system is
broken and our monetary system is default to our entire world.
And I think that because I experienced this when I was very
young, that like indeed planted something in me that year later
led to my interests in like economics, politics, poverty,
culture, which brought me to where to select the university.
And I started to study international political economy
in 2021. And when I started to study that
I was still unaware of Bitcoins potential impacts in the world.
But like, I think that the academic journey actually like
led me to broader understanding and like eventually to the world
of Bitcoin and its implications. So I guess I just started to
learn about everything that you're not taught in school and.
I also started to question that like for example, inflation.
So we, we looked at inflation, we're taught as, as we're taught
in all the universities that so we have this 2% inflation and
that's normal. And this is how we keep the
economy moving. And I couldn't shake that off.
It was like especially the inflation part where I was like,
but inflation can't be normal. Come on.
So like I found myself deeply questioning our, our current
monetary system. And I like, I still remember the
night where, where I realized that, OK, but maybe Bitcoin is
the solution because Bitcoin's actually always been a part of
my life because my dad's been like he's been into Bitcoin for
a long time, but it's just been there.
I've never been interested and I really remember when I was
sitting at sitting in the kitchen and my dad was making
dinner and I was just ranting about our word monetary system
that like we put together, come on, like we created this.
We are the guilty ones. Exactly this.
Is wait, this is a good point. I when you hear people from like
Central Bank of Europe be like, Oh yeah, we have to tame the,
the, the beast of inflation, blah, blah.
And I think like you did that, like it's not this is your
policy. You're like, you made this up,
you know, like that is also part of the entire gas lighting.
Like, Oh yeah, all inflation. Oh, it's the companies and this
and that. Like, no, that's, you know,
yeah, sorry. Exactly.
So that like I was just who came up with this?
Why are we doing this? And my dad like casually cooking
food. He was like, maybe you should
look into Bitcoin. And I was like, what are you
talking about? And he was like, look into
Bitcoin, but I was more like, OK, please explain to me how
this made-up currency will fix the world.
But again, I am a person that asked why?
Like I'm super curious. I want to know everything about
everything. So after that, like he gave me a
quick introduction and but I really love that he's kind of do
your own education. But I'm here to support you if
you have questions. So like after that, I, I guess I
like to spend the coming weeks just reading everything I could.
I watched a lot of, I don't know if you know Johnny Appelberg, he
makes videos of Knut Von Holmes books or something like that on
YouTube. I watch a lot of them.
Nice. That's nice, right?
Because and, and also what I like about making a podcast or
that you're, you're doing TikTok, like you never know
where what you create, where that ends up, right.
So I think it's really cool that well, did you met him also like
in real life later on now, like were you able to tell him that
he he taught you those? Yeah.
Yeah, so I write a bachelor thesis about Bitcoin in
developing countries, and Knut was one of the persons that I
interviewed for that. Oh, amazing.
Yeah, Yeah. And so then you studied.
Your dad must have been super happy.
Like, super proud. Proud.
He is. OK, but then so you studied and
then like what? What was?
So you were like, OK, how can this magic Internet thing, you
know, be the solution? Like what's What's the core of
What made it click for you then? What made it click?
Maybe it was my like my bachelor thesis that I wrote that that
made me realize because I kind of believe that that essay was
my breakthrough. That was when I really
understood that. Like I, I understood Bitcoin
before that, but I think that made me realize that wow,
Bitcoin solves so many of today's financial problems.
Like, I mean, we can, we can just look at the fact that 1.7
billion people lack access to a bank account, but more than half
of these people have access to mobile phone.
Like, why don't the world know this?
Like tell, tell that to people and that should be enough.
And like also the fact that being excluded in a way from,
from an economy like this, it affects a person in everything.
Like, it gives a person a more vulnerable life situation.
And like, not only do they like, experience financial insecurity,
they are like, they also have like limited economic security
and they are poorly prepared for economic chaos such as like
hyperinflation. And we can like we can even look
at like facts. If you have a bad economic
situation, they have proved that that will affect your mental
health. And it's closely associated with
like health problems such as depression and anxiety or, or
just like the fact that the World Bank, they count financial
inclus inclusion as a human right.
And that means that we have one 1.7 billion people that lack
access to human rights. And we understand that Bitcoin
can solve this. And so, so, so just that with
the financial inclusion. But then when you also
understand that many developing countries, they are so much more
sensitive to inflation and hyperinflation, And then you
come to the realization that Bitcoin fixes this as well.
So it's so it's so powerful. I, I really think that my like
my bachelor thesis was for sure my, my like my breakthrough when
I was like, wow. But was that then also the
moment for you where you actually now that you say this?
So this is how I think about it. But like that, you actually,
when you wrote it down that you understood that you understood
it and then you see what it can be.
Does that make sense? Yeah.
For sure. Yeah, funny, funny.
I think I, I had somewhat the same experience, like after all
the studying, like the different little essays I wrote also for
myself or when I had like a conversation with people there,
when it just like flowed out of my mouth, I was like, OK, this
is very clear to me. So what is?
What is the implication of this right?
Well, what did you study? I I studied something with
digital communication and business and stuff.
No, no, like not during my study, but more like at at
different moments. Yeah, just writing things down
or like, I don't know, seeing something in the news and being
like, yeah, that doesn't make sense.
Like, yeah, no, I think it should be like this and this and
this, right. But.
But it makes a lot to put like thoughts and and and things into
a paper. It does.
Yeah, well, it structures your thoughts, right?
I think for me, this is kind of also like a selfish hack doing
the podcast is it helps me structure my thoughts, right,
because I hear you speak about your journey and then we share
and you know, I'm jealous. No, but I think as being a
guest, it's the same. It's it's the same, right?
And also, well, you just shared, you know, like your friends are
not really into it or like maybe a very like small circle, like I
have the same. I think in general for lots of
Bitcoiners, that is the experience, right?
Like that your, your real life circle is very, very small and
like online it's hundreds or or thousands of people, right.
But once you, once you talk to other bitcoiners in real life,
you know, or like this, you get to kind of like validate your
thoughts and also realize that people from different ages and
different backgrounds and different experiences and
insights, etcetera. Like they all ended up with the
same conclusion. And that's for that's for me,
it's like a very they say like like a a positive confirmation
of my own thinking, right. And I think you're experiencing
that as well, right? If you if you reach a random
person on the Internet and you help them get in, you know, get
Bitcoin and then get into Bitcoin, right?
Like that is just really cool. Like that is it is a testament
also to your own work, right? So I think that is it.
Yeah. You know, that's always, always
fun to hear. And so when you wrote the thesis
like, what was the reaction? OK, so first of all, I wanted to
write in Sweden we write a thesis before the bachelor
thesis and that's called AB thesis.
And that's like a smaller essay you do.
And even there I was like I I want to write about Bitcoin.
And my professor, he said that you can't write about Bitcoin in
AB thesis. Like Bitcoin is way too abstract
for doing that. So I trusted him.
I, I was like, OK, maybe Bitcoin is too abstract to write about
in AB thesis. But when he says that you should
write about bricks instead and like how bricks works together
with the dollar he got, he got he he.
That was a hard word for. Me.
No, but when he said that write about bricks instead.
So I did in my B thesis and I can for sure say that bricks is
way more abstract to write about than Bitcoin.
But like I left this little note in the in the end where I said
that maybe we can like, what do you say?
Like try to, to put the dollar down in another way than bricks.
But I didn't say Bitcoin. It was just a hint.
So for, for my bachelor thesis, I like, I was, I already decided
that I'm going to write about Bitcoin and I had another
professor for that. And he said no, he was like, no,
we don't have enough data for that.
We don't have enough studies where you can like lie your
study on and it's going to be so hard for you.
You shouldn't do that. So I had to convince him.
So what I did was actually that I wrote, I think it was like 2
pages or something about like how the situation looks in the
world today. And that's when I wrote like,
oh, 1.7 billion people like access to bank account.
Look how many that has a phone. Where can you have Bitcoin on
your phone? And I just gave that to him and
I said read this and decide after that.
And he read that and after that he was like, OK, it will be
tough but you'll do it. And I think I kind of orange
filled him. And so at the end, you, you have
to defend it, I think, right? You have to present it and they
ask you questions. How?
How did that go? Actually it went pretty well,
but it it was more like he thought that it is like like not
enough research for you to lay your study on, but it was so
like that wasn't a big problem at all.
Nice, nice. And so I saw I think on your
Twitter somewhere, you know, and you just mentioned it, you know,
like if people want to get rich quick, you know, you'll be like,
oh, just get into crypto, try that, you know, you figure out
you won't get rich quick. But when you started looking
into this, did you just stick with Bitcoin because your dad
said that? Or did you also look at like
other crypto? Because now of course you are
Bitcoin only and and and you reject crypto totally.
How? How did that go?
I think that like when you come from the economic spur, I think
that it's quite easy to jump over to other cryptocurrencies
because everything may may make sense.
I can put it like this. Bitcoin is the only
cryptocurrency that is designed as a solution to today's
monetary system. That is very important.
And it's only actually also the the only cryptocurrency that is
like completely decentralized and lacks the central authority
that's really important. And it is the only
cryptocurrency with a built in mathematical formula that says
that it will be a maximum of 21 million bitcoins.
Like in the long run that will mean that we will have a
deflation. That's also really important.
And. If you grasp that, then you'll
like, you'll come to realize that all the coins that are
created after Bitcoin, they are created out of pure greed.
And Knutson home, he, I think he usually says that Bitcoin is not
an an invention, It is a discovery.
And it it is really difficult to create a new network where the
people in the network already are aware of the discovery.
It's really difficult to discover something again.
And, and I know that there like I know that there's a lot of
people that justify the existence of other
cryptocurrencies and believe that like Bitcoin has a lot of
gaps where we can fill in. But I would say that it's really
important to understand that Bitcoin is a technical
infrastructure like Internet, and it's constantly being
developed and adapted. And we can draw a parallel to to
our social infrastructure. If we find something in our
social infrastructure that has not yet reached the decided
level or like something that we can develop, we will not create
a new infrastructure. We will work with the
infrastructure that we already have.
We will develop that infrastructure.
So that's the reason why I'm going to stick with Bitcoin.
Yeah, I love that. I was.
I was looking up a tweet I had about because I love the word
discovery too. I think it's something like, as
you said, you know, Bitcoin is something that can be only
discovered once, right? Like finite digital scarcity and
crypto is an attempt by startups to have a token fuel a certain
ecosystem that they're building, right?
It's just, it's fine that people are trying to figure out what
that could be, but it is a totally different thing.
It's not what Bitcoin is. And, and I think it's correct,
right. When you say all the cryptos
came after Bitcoin, what I got from I think it was Jeff Booth,
he said like when you look at like the, you know, the value
propositions of all these other cryptos, it's like we are
faster. We are 100 million trillion, I
don't know transactions per second, blah, blah, blah, but
they they approach it just from the technological aspect, right?
And then for example, when you watch the talk by Jack Mahler at
Bitcoin Atlantis, I mentioned that a lot on this on the
podcast, but it's just really good talk.
He actually shares why the amount of transaction throughput
for Bitcoin is the best one because it accounts for, for
example, the speed of light. And why do all the other
blockchains break is because they go faster, like they go
faster than than the speed of the data, basically.
So the clock, the, the, the, the speed of the blockchain goes too
fast and then it breaks. You know, maybe that's a bit too
technical, but I think it's interesting that they focus on
that part, right, where it's more about the security towards
the future and, and right. And so the decentralization and
the security is, is more important than the speed in
Bitcoin. And when people say, yeah, but
it should be faster, etcetera, because Visa is a blah blah,
then you're comparing like a layer 6-7 or eight of a monetary
system with something that is layer one.
And if it's layer layer 1, the eventual layer one of the
current money system is gold. And so if we compare it to gold
as like the base layer of all the money in the world, then
it's, yeah, it's ridiculously more superior, right?
Was it? Was it?
Jack then made a like a keynote about this or.
Yeah. I need to see that I haven't
seen. Yeah, you have to watch that.
For me, in 10 years of Bitcoin, that's the best explainer I've
probably seen in like an hour. But, you know, I think the
biggest difference is Bitcoin is a discovery of finite digital
scarcity and crypto, you know, they, these are tokens to fuel
an ecosystem, you know, fine devil in that, but it's just
different. It's just a different thing.
And you know, it's, it's, it's fine.
And So what when you, when you talk to people right, or, or you
see comments you know, or just how you look at how people are
discovering Bitcoin, what do you think is the main thing people
need to learn or unlearn before they can understand Bitcoin?
Oh, that's a good question. I would say that they, they need
to, they need to learn like as I already said about the problem,
they, they need to understand the problem.
And to do that, like I, I think the most of the times it will
come to you. Like I come came to the
realization that when I talk to people, I'm like, OK, you don't
get this now and that's OK because you will get it someday.
You will learn about Bitcoin whether you like it or not,
because Bitcoin is here to stay. But to learn or unlearn, I would
say unlearn your mindset, change your mindset, be more
optimistic. I think that's so many people,
they're, they're working like this and they like, they will
never grasp it because they already made-up their mind.
Well, I think that's a team that comes back a lot, right?
Like many Bitcoiners believe that Bitcoin turns nihilism into
optimism, you know, and I think kind of like how I view Gen.
Z from a, from a distance, right, is that.
I kind of see it as like a barbell, like one side is just
really nihilistic. There's nothing in the middle.
And then there's like the other side that's super optimistic,
right? And they're using the Internet
to learn and they know everything is free.
You know that they they are totally using that opportunity
to develop themselves. And so I don't see a lot like
like in the. Middle we compared those kind of
people, persons like who moved the easiest in today's society,
the people that wants to learn about AI and the people that
wants to learn about new technology and the people that
wants to learn about Internet. So do yourself a favour and try
to think outside your little box.
You'll thank me later. Yeah, 100% agree.
But like, is this what you also see like let's focus on, let's
say your generation? Like, is it kind of like just
those two parts? You know, are a lot of people
nihilistic? You think like, are they not
enthusiastic about the future, you know, like they're negative
etcetera. Or do you think it's not that
bad? I don't know.
Well, I, I wouldn't say that it's that bad.
I think it's mostly in like the our knowledge.
Still, it's like people will think like think that Bitcoin
isn't a solution because they don't know any better.
But have you ever talked to to person that choose to be against
Bitcoin and that fully understands it?
No. No, me neither.
Yeah. That's also an interesting thing
I've noticed. I think a lot of people think
the same, right? Like that's what Saylor says
about there are no informed critiques, but that is kind of
it, right? Like change, you said change
your mindset. I usually say like, think for
yourself, Right? It's yeah, when you ask a
question to someone and they reply, you know, you're a white
person, you could ask them why, right?
And I think, I think that is all, you know, that's always
like a good way to kind of get a feeling for how, yeah, how
someone's mindset is, right or, or how they think.
But also, you know, I think many people who realize, many people
realize that, like once they understand Bitcoin, you know,
and they see a lot of nonsense about it from these critics, for
example, in the media, right? Just nonsense pieces in serious
newspapers or media, for example, right?
They start questioning like all these other subjects that are
portrayed in the media, right? Like, OK, well, there's this one
topic that I know a lot about, and people write nonsense about
that, you know, what else is nonsense?
Has this also been your experience?
I think so, or I know that it is like that.
I think media is so scary, to be honest.
And I talked to many of my friends and my family and they
don't understand the problem with this.
They think that like Sweden is very uncensored when it comes to
how we share information, but it's not.
And this applies to so much more than Bitcoin.
Like, I won't go into politics in this, but the way that we in
Sweden approach certain things is not at all consistent to to
how we see things like in the rest of the world.
And that makes you suddenly start to question, is this true
or like, is this not true? I think.
And like, the good thing with that is that today's generation,
we go a lot on Twitter, we go a lot on Tiktok, we are a lot on
Instagram. So we got the news from other
things than watching the TV during night.
But like you, you need to be on your tip of toes there as well.
Like especially when it when you hear news from social media,
check your resources. But like honestly, I think that
you learn more today you you get more correct information if you
check your social media than if you go on your 8:00 get TV news.
Yeah, that's funny, right? But like what you mentioned
about your friends and your family, like they, they don't,
they don't see it right. Maybe well, if they watch like
traditional media, which is funny by the way, the word
traditional media, like there's people online that have more
reach than traditional media. But I I think the think for
yourself, part of which you know, a mindset change has to
come first before you can think for yourself, obviously, right
for. Sure.
That is already something where people struggle, right?
Like just the entire concept of, OK, I get my information about
inflation, you know, let's keep it at, at the, the, the
economics part. Like I keep, I keep my, I get my
information about inflation from, you know, the TV at at
8:00 PM, right? Like what you then do is like
you just accept that you have no clue how it actually works.
You give responsibility to other people to tell you what you
should believe, right? And then you just accept that
without any questions, right? Maybe even when it doesn't make
a lot of sense to you or you don't even think about it.
And you're just like, oh, well, OK, you know, that's it.
I'll, you know, buy less chicken this month or bread or whatever.
Like you. You just position yourself as, I
don't know, like like a helpless person, right?
Like, yeah, I can't do anything about it, right?
But like these other people that decide for you, are they smarter
than you? Do they have more?
I don't know, why do they have more power over you to tell you
these things and help, you know, make you adjust your behavior in
your own life and change your decisions, all these things,
right? Just that question like you
don't even have to talk about Bitcoin and how is the solution
like just that when you talk about that, that's already like
a really hard conversation for people because they'll be like,
Oh well, we live in Sweden or the Netherlands.
Like what are you complaining about?
It's still fine and no problems and blah, blah.
Which in part obviously is true, but that should not be a reason
for you to not think for yourself.
Yeah, that that's so true. And like in, in Sweden, I
wouldn't say that like we like, I question everything now,
especially when we're having a conversation about this.
But I think like the biggest problem is how we censor things
that happen outside Sweden or like inside Sweden as well.
I had a chat with, with another Bitcoiner and he asked me, he
sent me an article and he said he, he, he kind of said, like,
how, how is it for you in Sweden?
I hope you're taking care of you.
And I just opened that and I was like, what, what, what's going
on? What is this?
And it was an article about some policemen in in Sweden.
They went out and and they said that we can no longer protect
the women in our country. And I am a woman in my country.
And that information didn't reach me at all.
Well. Yeah, that's strange.
It's it's crazy. With that being said, I think
that Sweden is a safe country. Like I'm not bothered at all so.
Yeah, yeah, that's interesting. I, I because I also wanted to
ask you a question. I saw in another podcast you
drew a comparison between the matrix and the field system,
which I like. I talk about the matrix a lot.
I I see it also as the matrix. Can you explain why you compare
it and how do you see people like waking up to the fact you
know that they could step out of all of this with with Bitcoin?
I would say that the Fiat system is the matrix, like Bitcoin is
not the matrix. The Fiat system is the matrix,
but Bitcoin is the thing that can like that opens the door
that gives you a way to get out of the matrix.
And this like, drives me back to the knowledge like, again, as I
told you, did you ever talk to someone that used to be against
Bitcoin and that truly understands it?
No. So as Morphe says, he says in
the matrix, he says something like, when you're inside the
Matrix, you look around and you will see businessmen, teachers,
lawyers, You will see people that we're trying to save.
But until then, like these people are just a part of the
system, which more or less makes them their our enemy.
And most of these people are so invested in the matrix, so they
will fight to predict it. And like for me, sure, that
sounds like ignorance. But like the ignorance that we
hear from from media that Bitcoin is speculative and
Bitcoin is for criminals and Bitcoin is bad for the
environment. But that's because they didn't
understand Bitcoin. They're so stuck, they still
stuck in the matrix. So of course, like if if media
is picturing our like society and our environment and, and,
and Bitcoin that Bitcoin is bad for this and it's bad for this
and Bitcoin is doing that, yeah, we will start to think the
people around us will start to think that that's our reality.
So the Fiat system is the matrix and Bitcoin is what opens the
door. Yeah.
So what do you think? Yeah, I it's funny, though, like
while you're talking and thinking about this video of
what's his name you follow Harare that went like viral at
this week. You know, the the the writer.
Did you see him? No, I didn't.
See where he said about, you know, I have a problem with
Bitcoin. It's a system of distrust.
We should trust human organizations and all these
things. And you need to send me this.
Yeah, I'll send it to you on Twitter.
And it's just like all the Bitcoin people replying like
you, you turn this around like it's not distrust, it's honesty,
right? Like we cannot trust ourselves
and we don't want to be forced to trust other people.
Why isn't there a system where we don't have to trust anyone?
How can you be against that, right?
How can you be against a system where nobody has to trust each
other, but we can still all benefit from it, right?
And you don't have to trust. You can verify it.
You can verify how it works. And nobody's an owner and it's
not a pyramid scheme and blah, blah, blah.
Like all these things like this is the, this is the most
ultimately transparent thing that has ever existed.
Yeah. And the reason that people don't
get that is because they're stuck in the matrix.
They don't know this. They need the knowledge.
Correct. It sounds too good to be true
because there's nothing else like it, right?
I think I think that is the core of it right.
So once you tell this people be like no, it cannot be that
right, But that's the nihilistic ego talking because you are not
used to you don't there are no mutually beneficial games in
this world. It's all 0 sum, right?
And so when you share like, OK, there could be the system where
you can trust all the other, you know, you trust other people
because, well, you don't have to trust others, right?
That's just so foreign to them. And I, I think the matrix in
that sense is, is, is a good example because they don't even
know that they are in there, right?
They don't even know there's an alternative system.
And when you illustrate that system, they're like, no, that
sounds like fans. That cannot be true.
And then, you know, it stops there, of course, because that
is where the imagination stops. But I like that you said before,
like you're a curious person. I, I think I'm also a really
curious person, but I think that's we are lucky that we got
that trait, I think, right, because that is, well, I was
also always annoying child in the classroom.
Why is this? Why is that?
Can you explain this to me? That doesn't really make sense,
you know, And all the other kids were always like, there's a
Brahmagan with all these questions and but they thought I
was annoying. But I always thought, no, I'm
actually interested. Like tell me like I'm asking
questions because I'm listening and I'm actually interested.
Like, what are you, what are you talking about?
And I always felt that, always felt that way.
But it's nice to like hear from other people that they're the
same, like you have the same issues.
Look, look. Where they brought us to be
curious. Yeah, and I think, you know, and
you also shared a bit about this I saw in another podcast.
But like for me, it really frees your minds.
Like you can, you know, you can trust yourself, you know, you
did the work. You know, you can adopt another
system that is carried by, well, computing power, but also all
these other people that are also adopting this, right?
And I think that's a great, great feeling that that clarity,
right? And so I wanted to ask you also
about like one of my favorite topics in Bitcoin is about like
the spiritual journey that it invites you on.
Have you also experienced this? That's, this is so interesting.
It really is because I've become so much more spiritual, but that
journey like lays on top of my Bitcoin journey or like they, it
happened in the same time, like during the same time.
And it wasn't until Bitcoin Atlantis where I really
understood that, OK, maybe this side of me has everything to do
with Bitcoin. Because when when I was in
Madeira, I realized that first of all, it was the first time
where I was in a place where it was a lot of other Bitcoiners.
It was the first time I experienced that like being in a
room and everybody loves Bitcoin.
But what else did we have in common?
Like how we picture life and like we all had the same
mindset. And that's like that.
That was amazing to see. So I really tried to like see
parallel between them. I think that maybe maybe because
Bitcoin is decentralized and it offers the form of financial
freedom and independence where we take the power from like our
financial system and put it on in our own hands, then that that
will for sure do something for you to you.
So I guess maybe that's like why?
But it's it's super interesting. What's like a lesson you've
learned? What's like the main thing?
Of Bitcoin or. Well, this like a spiritual
lesson. About the mindset, I would say
like I, I'm so thankful for my mindset and I can find like I
can find a positive thing in every bad situation.
If something bad is happening to me, I'm always like, OK, what
are the like? What is universe trying to teach
me now? Or like I, I said this example,
I don't know if it's, it was the podcast that you were listening
to, but imagine that you're in the university and you walk, you
just bought a coffee and you're walking in the hallway and you
spill the coffee all over you, all over your clothes.
Like most of the people would be pissed.
And I think that's when you should just like kind of take a
moment there and be like, what's going on?
I'm in a university. I just bought a coffee.
I can buy a new coffee. I, I spilled it all over my
clothes. I'm wearing clothes like I can
wash my clothes. So just the mindset and trust
your journey. Like everything will sell out
for you. I really think it will, but if
it's if we look more more into Bitcoin, then I would say that
Bitcoin taught me that the world is tough, but it's not
unfixable. And maybe also it's OK to not
agree on on everything that everything has takes time and
everything has their own time or like it will fit in in your time
frame. So the person that you're
talking to, like they, she or he, because eventually they will
another day because Bitcoin fixes everything.
Yeah, I think the. The.
The fact that. You know when you do the work to
understand that what this is and what it could bring, right?
And then that there's this whole other system of not only money,
but also values and spirit in a sense, positivity in a sense
also, right? That once you get there, before
you get there, you you're everyone fights like this
personal fight of what? How was I raised?
What was I taught? What do I believe?
What are actually my values? What is stuff I have no fucking
clue about, right that I need to learn?
Like how did I outsourced by responsibility over my life?
Like those are like like those are very hard things to realize
and realize, comprehend, but then also kind of like change
and actually integrate, right? So I think it really humbles
you, this journey and therefore it creates a lot of like
gratefulness, right? Like.
That that you're. Grateful for the fact that you
were able to do that or you had the time, you know, in, in in a
small part. But then if you extrapolate
that, then make it bigger, you know, then, you know, I think
the coffee example is funny, but it's like, yeah, like, what am I
complaining about? Yeah, like I have all these
things. Already and I didn't do.
Anything for it either? Yeah, I know, I know.
And another. Example is like, I think like
the way you look at happiness if if you wake up every day and you
say that I'm happy if I choose to be happy.
Then. You will be like even if the
money in your savings account are are tied.
I have this example from when my parents, they were in Morocco,
Morocco and they, they had a guide and she wasn't my age and
it was so clear that she didn't have that much money.
So my father actually asked her, what do you do?
Like like to. Do on your on your free.
Time and she answered that I love to go in the garden and
just read a book because that's when I feel the most happiest
and I feel so free. And I would say that that is a
girl with a healthy mindset. And this is the thing that you
should be taught in school. Because if I asked like some
past classmate that I would have like that I had, she or he would
probably answer that. Summer vacation.
But my family is not going to Spain, so that sucks.
I need to spend the whole summer in my country house and that is
a so unhealthy mindset. Like, come on.
Yeah. Well, that's the gratefulness I.
I. Talk about right.
And I think that's also the problem what you mentioned in
the beginning like the whole get rich quick etcetera, right?
Like yeah, I don't know what the quote.
Is right, but. I don't know, something like.
Quickly gained money is. Also quickly lost, right like
because you didn't work for it like you don't you don't even
understand why you got that money, you know and I think that
is really important that you know if Bitcoin goes to where we
think it's going to go, we're going to get rewarded for the
work we did but. I don't think there's going to
be a lot of. Bitcoiners that would like, I
don't know, like get it to, you know, blow it all and get like
hooked on coke and other stuff and whatever, and then they have
to go to rehab life. You know, I I don't think that's
going to happen happen like right, not not like well, the
crypto examples we we've seen, I think online, right, but but I
think that is it like the the entire like time preference.
You have. You know, the humility, the
patience, like all these things, like you actually have to work
for this, right? Yesterday I saw a tweet by
someone that was really great. Like having a hundred Bitcoin in
2010 was not special, right? Having ten Bitcoin in 2015 was
not special. Or sorry, having a having a
hundred was special. Having ten was special, right?
Now having one is special. Having .1 in a few.
Years is. Is special, and so nobody.
Nobody. From the early.
Days maybe a handful of people actually have like still all all
that Bitcoin right because it's really hard like it's really
hard to keep it and that is the lesson that that you need to
learn is that you become yeah more aware of your time and how
you spend it and and you know how you spend the wealth that
you have etcetera. And so I think that's kind of
like the biggest lesson also that that you learn once you
adopt Bitcoin is like lower your time preference, lower, lower,
lower, right. Yeah, yeah.
And so. How has Bitcoin changed your
world view as a young person? Like you're.
You're discovering the world you know, in a way bigger way.
Probably than me. You know, at your age, like how,
how did it change already? A lot like I don't even know how
how to like I I don't know, maybe like as you said, to be
like grateful for what you have and to gain hope.
Like I think that. Many in my generation.
We see the future as quite hopeless, but this is exactly
where like Bitcoin fits so good in the picture.
Because Bitcoin really creates hope and like when you least
expect it, you will begin to understand that aha, Bitcoin can
actually give that little girl in in Africa a chance for a real
life where she can handle her own money.
But it can also make make my my grandchildren buy an apartment
in Stockholm in in the city instead of like losing all of
their money to inflation. And Bitcoin also means that that
like the war, that just happened.
Between those two. Countries, it wouldn't break out
if we had Bitcoin as a as a currency because they need to
print money to to be able to afford that war.
So I, I guess, I guess that just, I don't know, see, see the
world in, in, in other eyes and in a bigger picture, yeah.
I like that you said hope I. Think again.
This is something like. That's then like a big word,
right? Like why do you need hope?
You live, you live in Sweden, right?
Like why do you why do you need hope?
But. I don't know.
I don't like, I don't like it when people would.
Talk like that, but you know more more as an example, but I I
think what it gives you is that whatever you spend your time and
energy on, you know to create value and then get value in
return. Bitcoin is the only thing to
ever. Guard.
That reward into the future to make it not devalue into the
future so that you can spend it on whatever you want in the
future, right? Building a family or a house or,
you know, whatever, whatever you want.
And I think that when you say hope, that is what I kind of
like think about that you you can create the time and dust the
space to figure out what am I here to do.
What am I here? To add to the world, right
whatever it is you you want to do instead of kind of like being
forced into a job month to month, you getting paid nine to
five, you have no clue what. You're doing.
Why you're doing it? You know, I think that is the
hope. All right.
Well, that's what I think of when when you say hope, but
yeah, yeah. Interesting.
Again, like such. A big word, like Jeff Booth
talked to me about the inflation and then he said like, yeah,
inflation is theft. That I think like, yeah, I
agree. But if you use those words, you
know, for a lot of people, it's then already such a difficult
conversation, right? And so I think it's nice to
reflect on that to also figure out like, how can we, you know,
tune our story a bit better also to reach people.
So I want to ask you two last, last questions.
What advice would you give someone from your generation,
Gen. Z or Millennial when they're
just starting out to explore Bitcoin?
What would be the number one thing?
I would say like. Ask yourself.
Why? Why do you want to learn?
Like where do you see the important thing in this and why
is this important to you? Find the value in why Bitcoin is
needed, but find it yourself and also like understand that you
don't need to know everything. You don't understand what's
happening when you make a phone call to the other side of the
world, but it works, right? So and you use your phone like
everyday and so just trust the technology because the important
thing isn't how it works. It is that it works.
Love that. And.
Contrasting to. The phone you use every day.
You can actually if you would want to, you can verify how
Bitcoin works. Right?
Exactly. Maybe that's also one of the
points. Yeah.
Don't trust verify. Exactly.
All right, last. Question and I ask everyone the
same question. What is a core belief that you
will never let go? Back to the.
Mindset again. Again, maybe that you, you will
attract the same energy that you give away.
Like, why do you think that Bitcoiners are like the happiest
people on the planet? I, I would say that probably
because we all look at the future with hope and because we
all like we send out and we collect positive energy.
If we're all like, if our vibrations are here, then we
will meet others that are here. So like, and, and this like this
mindset, it needs to start within yourself.
You are your thoughts and you are your feelings.
And yes, you can control them because you are them like you
are hope. And I like, I strongly believe
in in energies and in and in mindset.
So be optimistic, think big and trust that like your way, your
Rd. that will roll out in front of you.
Because when when you have that mindset then then like your
dream will eventually become your reality.
Love that. That's a great, great ending.
Thank you so much for this conversation.
Thank you. I I will make sure to link to
your Twitter and TikTok so people can follow you.
And yeah, thanks again. Thank you so much for having me.
Cheers, I hope you enjoyed this episode.
If you did, it would be amazing if you could rate, review and
subscribe on the podcast platform of your choice.
It will help us educate more millennials on the importance of
Bitcoin. You can follow and connect with
me on Twitter. I'm Bram K that's at BR AM K,
and if you are or know someone who has an interesting
perspective on Bitcoin that's worth sharing, hit me up.
I read and reply to every single message.
I appreciate your support and hope you'll be here for the next
episodes. Thanks for listening.
Bye.