1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:03,960 What if we are approaching A civilizational fork in the road, 2 00:00:04,160 --> 00:00:07,680 where one path leads to algorithmic control and the 3 00:00:07,680 --> 00:00:09,760 other leads to a second renaissance? 4 00:00:10,280 --> 00:00:13,240 I'm joined by Jesse Tevolo, an entrepreneur and best selling 5 00:00:13,240 --> 00:00:16,480 author who is sounding the alarm on this critical juncture. 6 00:00:16,920 --> 00:00:21,320 Together, we unpack his thesis on why AI needs Bitcoin as a 7 00:00:21,320 --> 00:00:25,080 physical anchor to keep machine intelligence aligned with human 8 00:00:25,080 --> 00:00:28,400 truth and stick around to hear why Jesse believes Bitcoin is 9 00:00:28,400 --> 00:00:32,000 our best defense in a world where AI makes it impossible to 10 00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:35,120 know what's real and the one human skill that becomes more 11 00:00:35,120 --> 00:00:38,240 valuable when machines can do everything else. 12 00:00:38,440 --> 00:00:40,960 This was a mind blowing conversation, and I hope you 13 00:00:40,960 --> 00:00:43,120 find it valuable too. Now let's dive in. 14 00:00:45,800 --> 00:00:48,560 Jesse Tavello, welcome to Bitcoin for Millennials. 15 00:00:49,120 --> 00:00:50,800 Thanks for having me Ram. I really appreciate it. 16 00:00:50,800 --> 00:00:52,080 Great to be spending some time with you today. 17 00:00:52,680 --> 00:00:55,640 All right, so you say AI is a mirror. 18 00:00:55,640 --> 00:00:59,840 Now I've used the description Bitcoin is a mirror a lot. 19 00:00:59,920 --> 00:01:02,320 I think in a similar way because you talk about it that you know 20 00:01:02,320 --> 00:01:06,720 that it, that it reflects our our values and it's kind of like 21 00:01:06,720 --> 00:01:08,760 how, how do we apply this, right? 22 00:01:08,760 --> 00:01:11,080 Like how do we instruct it? How, what do we use it for? 23 00:01:11,080 --> 00:01:16,440 And so if our current money system is built on debt, fake 24 00:01:16,440 --> 00:01:19,600 value, right? People say nominal growth, when 25 00:01:19,600 --> 00:01:21,520 the numbers go up, it's actual growth, right? 26 00:01:21,520 --> 00:01:24,200 But it's not. And it's all focused on short 27 00:01:24,200 --> 00:01:26,040 term gains instead of long term building. 28 00:01:28,120 --> 00:01:31,680 It is inevitable, right? That like a centralized force 29 00:01:31,680 --> 00:01:35,520 controls that. How do you feel about that with 30 00:01:35,960 --> 00:01:38,320 AI? Basically, can can it, should it 31 00:01:38,320 --> 00:01:43,560 also be as free as Bitcoin and decentralized or is there a real 32 00:01:43,560 --> 00:01:46,440 chance that would become centralized and like a tool for 33 00:01:46,440 --> 00:01:48,880 manipulation, surveillance, etcetera? 34 00:01:49,080 --> 00:01:50,600 That's a positive question to start. 35 00:01:51,160 --> 00:01:53,800 Well, you also went right to the, you went right to the meet, 36 00:01:53,840 --> 00:01:56,640 you went right to the middle. So, you know, this is I think 37 00:01:56,640 --> 00:02:00,040 maybe arguably the sort of the biggest question of our of our 38 00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:04,080 time is sort of like, you know, how do we continue to move 39 00:02:04,080 --> 00:02:09,000 forward seeing how centralization has really become 40 00:02:09,400 --> 00:02:12,760 a big problem in my mind? I mean, I think we basically had 41 00:02:12,760 --> 00:02:15,600 this massive experiment that we just did over the last call it 42 00:02:15,680 --> 00:02:18,240 quarter century called globalization, right? 43 00:02:18,240 --> 00:02:20,800 We made the US dollar the global reserve currency. 44 00:02:20,800 --> 00:02:23,480 We exported everything. We stopped making things at 45 00:02:23,480 --> 00:02:25,720 home. We did everything based off of, 46 00:02:25,720 --> 00:02:27,960 you know, the cheapest production cost wherever we 47 00:02:27,960 --> 00:02:30,400 could get that, whether it was China or Taiwan or wherever. 48 00:02:31,600 --> 00:02:34,080 And you can just see that, you know, the government, the 49 00:02:34,080 --> 00:02:37,120 centralized systems that we have here in the United States, they 50 00:02:37,120 --> 00:02:41,160 are working off of a debt based system called the US dollar. 51 00:02:41,160 --> 00:02:45,120 It's Fiat money, which I go into a lot of detail about this and 52 00:02:45,120 --> 00:02:47,800 some of my other articles, some of the other writings that I've 53 00:02:47,800 --> 00:02:50,080 done. But you know, if you really 54 00:02:50,080 --> 00:02:53,720 study money like I have for the past several years now, you 55 00:02:53,720 --> 00:02:55,760 know, I went to school for economics and sociology at 56 00:02:55,760 --> 00:02:57,560 Michigan, but they don't actually teach you this stuff at 57 00:02:57,560 --> 00:03:00,200 school. And I think over the last five 58 00:03:00,200 --> 00:03:03,800 years really from from let's say COVID to now here we are at the 59 00:03:03,800 --> 00:03:06,840 beginning of 2026, I think the world's waking up. 60 00:03:07,240 --> 00:03:10,520 You know, I think the average person is finally starting to 61 00:03:10,520 --> 00:03:14,000 understand kind of how money works, what money is. 62 00:03:14,200 --> 00:03:17,800 And I think Bitcoin is honestly the reason for that combined 63 00:03:17,800 --> 00:03:21,280 with the deterioration of the US dollar and regular paper money. 64 00:03:21,480 --> 00:03:24,840 I like to call it toilet paper because that's really all it is. 65 00:03:24,840 --> 00:03:27,280 It's not really, it doesn't really have any value. 66 00:03:28,360 --> 00:03:31,320 The only reason the US dollar has value is because we, we say 67 00:03:31,320 --> 00:03:33,200 it does. And it's hard for people to 68 00:03:33,200 --> 00:03:35,480 understand that. And it almost sounds ridiculous, 69 00:03:36,640 --> 00:03:40,160 but I, I tend to believe that centralized systems are just, 70 00:03:40,160 --> 00:03:42,360 it's a pyramid. The power is going to constantly 71 00:03:42,360 --> 00:03:46,280 flow to the top. If you're familiar with money, 72 00:03:46,520 --> 00:03:49,360 you know the Cantalon effect. I'll just define that for your 73 00:03:49,360 --> 00:03:50,640 listeners and the people that are listening. 74 00:03:50,640 --> 00:03:53,480 It basically means the people that are closest to the creation 75 00:03:53,480 --> 00:03:55,880 of the money are going to get the money first. 76 00:03:56,000 --> 00:03:58,080 It's not rocket science. If you know that you have a 77 00:03:58,080 --> 00:04:00,320 printer and you can print money and you're sitting there and 78 00:04:00,320 --> 00:04:05,320 you're the Fed, the people that are friends and close, close by 79 00:04:05,560 --> 00:04:08,680 to the Fed, whether it's the US government, big institutions, 80 00:04:08,720 --> 00:04:12,560 banks, they get the money 1st. And then once it flows down, the 81 00:04:12,560 --> 00:04:14,920 more and more money that's printed, the prices have to go 82 00:04:14,920 --> 00:04:16,640 up. That's basic economic supply and 83 00:04:16,640 --> 00:04:18,959 demand. You dilute the currency, 84 00:04:18,959 --> 00:04:20,480 everything, the prices are going to rise. 85 00:04:20,800 --> 00:04:24,080 And that's kind of the situation that we find ourselves in. 86 00:04:24,560 --> 00:04:26,720 It's led to AK shaped economy, right? 87 00:04:26,720 --> 00:04:28,080 We have the haves, we have the have nots. 88 00:04:28,080 --> 00:04:30,120 It's getting worse and worse. Middle class is getting hollowed 89 00:04:30,120 --> 00:04:35,000 out back to your sort of main question, you know you said you 90 00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:38,760 think that Bitcoin is a mirror. I agree with that Bitcoin I we 91 00:04:38,760 --> 00:04:42,040 can talk about that for days from the the spiritual side of 92 00:04:42,040 --> 00:04:44,680 Bitcoin, how it changes your mindset, how it really is just a 93 00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:50,440 reflection of us and what we do AI is the same thing and people 94 00:04:50,880 --> 00:04:54,360 in from my from where I sit from what I see and I talked to lots 95 00:04:54,360 --> 00:04:56,440 of entrepreneurs I've been working with startups for over 96 00:04:56,440 --> 00:04:59,240 20 years. I see a lot of the most cutting 97 00:04:59,240 --> 00:05:02,200 edge stuff. And then I can also see what the 98 00:05:02,200 --> 00:05:05,960 general public is doing. And I think a lot of folks are 99 00:05:05,960 --> 00:05:09,640 scared, you know, of AI right now for good reason, because it 100 00:05:09,640 --> 00:05:11,360 kind of feels like its own thing. 101 00:05:11,640 --> 00:05:14,040 And we can get into this brand. But I call it, it's almost like 102 00:05:14,040 --> 00:05:15,600 the emergence of another species. 103 00:05:15,880 --> 00:05:17,640 You know, I think a lot of people would agree with me on 104 00:05:17,640 --> 00:05:19,800 that. We're sort of marching toward, 105 00:05:20,040 --> 00:05:22,320 you know, can the AI do things without us? 106 00:05:22,320 --> 00:05:24,800 Can they become autonomous, completely autonomous? 107 00:05:25,160 --> 00:05:27,880 And it's looking, it's looking like that's going to be 108 00:05:27,880 --> 00:05:31,440 happening relatively soon. We already have Claude bot and 109 00:05:31,440 --> 00:05:34,600 open open Claw and all these people building these agentic AI 110 00:05:34,600 --> 00:05:38,480 systems. So again, back to your question, 111 00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:42,960 AI is going to tend toward becoming centralized. 112 00:05:42,960 --> 00:05:45,360 That's just the nature of humanity. 113 00:05:45,360 --> 00:05:47,480 We tend to have power structures. 114 00:05:47,640 --> 00:05:50,520 The power flows up to the to the to the top of the pyramid. 115 00:05:50,720 --> 00:05:53,080 The people at the top of the pyramid have the most power. 116 00:05:53,200 --> 00:05:56,200 They want to keep the power, so they maintain that structure. 117 00:05:56,400 --> 00:05:59,920 And you see that happening right now, whether we like it or not 118 00:05:59,920 --> 00:06:02,840 with companies like open AI, Sam, you know, we got Sam 119 00:06:02,840 --> 00:06:05,760 Altman, we got Elon building X AI, we've got, those are 120 00:06:05,760 --> 00:06:07,920 probably the two, in my mind, the two biggest players. 121 00:06:08,280 --> 00:06:12,720 And, and look, I love Elon. I'm personally not as fond of, 122 00:06:12,720 --> 00:06:15,080 of, of Sam Altman. I, I don't really, you know, I 123 00:06:15,080 --> 00:06:19,960 don't know either of them, but I tend to sort of like the vision 124 00:06:20,120 --> 00:06:23,960 that Elon has. I use both products, right. 125 00:06:24,120 --> 00:06:26,520 But at the end of the day, like they're both centralized. 126 00:06:26,800 --> 00:06:30,600 And so we say, I said, you know, you mentioned Bitcoin as a 127 00:06:30,600 --> 00:06:33,680 mirror. AI is also a mirror in the sense 128 00:06:33,680 --> 00:06:37,160 that Sam Altman and his team, Elon Musk and their team, 129 00:06:37,400 --> 00:06:39,880 they're building systems in a closed box. 130 00:06:39,920 --> 00:06:40,880 We don't know what they're building. 131 00:06:40,880 --> 00:06:42,480 We can't see what their algos are doing. 132 00:06:42,480 --> 00:06:45,280 We don't know what their AI and it's theirs. 133 00:06:45,280 --> 00:06:47,360 It's not ours. It's their AI. 134 00:06:47,600 --> 00:06:50,360 So we don't know what their AI is operating from. 135 00:06:50,920 --> 00:06:53,240 And that's neither a good thing or a bad thing. 136 00:06:53,240 --> 00:06:55,440 It's just a statement. That's just the truth. 137 00:06:55,720 --> 00:07:00,240 And so I believe we need to go to a decentralized AI type of 138 00:07:00,440 --> 00:07:04,280 system that I hope is going to happen organically. 139 00:07:04,520 --> 00:07:06,800 There's already other lots and lots of companies working on 140 00:07:06,800 --> 00:07:11,160 different AI tools. So Jack Dorsey is a guy that he 141 00:07:11,160 --> 00:07:13,080 talks about this. He kind of thinks of this, I 142 00:07:13,080 --> 00:07:16,440 think similar to how I do, which is that we should be able to 143 00:07:16,440 --> 00:07:19,280 kind of choose, we should choose, be able to choose our 144 00:07:19,280 --> 00:07:21,040 AI. We should be able to choose 145 00:07:21,040 --> 00:07:23,480 which model we want to run off of. 146 00:07:23,480 --> 00:07:25,400 And there should be lots and lots and lots of models. 147 00:07:25,400 --> 00:07:28,880 Because if we just have one singular AI, that gets very 148 00:07:28,880 --> 00:07:31,040 scary, that type of centralized power. 149 00:07:32,120 --> 00:07:35,720 And remember, a lot of people think of whatever an AI says now 150 00:07:35,720 --> 00:07:38,200 is the truth. That is not accurate. 151 00:07:38,360 --> 00:07:43,360 We're feeding the AI inputs. The the AI is giving us outputs 152 00:07:43,560 --> 00:07:47,360 based on our inputs. That's incredibly important. 153 00:07:47,520 --> 00:07:50,200 So we need to feed the system. We need to feed it in a 154 00:07:50,200 --> 00:07:53,200 decentralized way and we have to have lots of different AIS 155 00:07:53,200 --> 00:07:56,040 giving lots of different outputs through different algorithms. 156 00:07:56,040 --> 00:08:00,880 So I see a decentralized AI future as the only like good 157 00:08:00,880 --> 00:08:03,440 solution. I think any kind of centralized 158 00:08:03,440 --> 00:08:06,480 control, whether it's AI, centralized control of Bitcoin 159 00:08:06,480 --> 00:08:10,680 or anything else right now, Fiat is centrally controlled, usually 160 00:08:10,680 --> 00:08:15,480 leads to corruption and inequality and and big problems. 161 00:08:17,520 --> 00:08:20,920 When it comes to holding Bitcoin securely, Peace of Mind starts 162 00:08:20,920 --> 00:08:23,720 with architecture. 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Like, you know, this pendulum 192 00:09:50,760 --> 00:09:54,520 swing idea, I feel like, you know that eventually it's all 193 00:09:54,520 --> 00:09:56,480 about harmony, but we go up and down, right? 194 00:09:56,480 --> 00:09:59,160 And at some point we're at an inflection point in the middle 195 00:09:59,160 --> 00:10:02,360 and then, you know, it either continues up, up or down and you 196 00:10:02,360 --> 00:10:03,840 have this idea of this pendulum swing. 197 00:10:03,840 --> 00:10:07,680 And I do feel like the pendulum swing has gone very far to the 198 00:10:07,720 --> 00:10:12,360 centralization side. And the last few weeks have 199 00:10:12,360 --> 00:10:14,440 felt, I don't know, in interesting. 200 00:10:14,440 --> 00:10:16,280 I think there's a lot of chaos. Like there's a thing, there's a 201 00:10:16,280 --> 00:10:18,240 lot of stuff going on. There's like not a lot of 202 00:10:18,240 --> 00:10:21,960 direction. I think we are in this final 203 00:10:21,960 --> 00:10:25,040 phase towards centralization and, and the people that support 204 00:10:25,040 --> 00:10:28,960 centralization are doing everything to protect what 205 00:10:28,960 --> 00:10:31,880 they've gathered, right or what they control. 206 00:10:32,440 --> 00:10:37,560 And in between comes AI within, within all this chaos. 207 00:10:37,560 --> 00:10:42,160 So I also think that AI and I agree with you, I don't, I don't 208 00:10:42,160 --> 00:10:45,080 think we only should, but I think it's going to happen 209 00:10:45,080 --> 00:10:49,680 because just the whole concept of decentralization with. 210 00:10:49,920 --> 00:10:52,680 Well, we started decentralized. We started in tribes. 211 00:10:52,680 --> 00:10:54,920 If you go back far enough, we were all spread out, all 212 00:10:55,080 --> 00:10:56,880 decentralized. No one was using the same stuff. 213 00:10:57,080 --> 00:10:59,600 And we've gone extreme centralization. 214 00:10:59,600 --> 00:11:02,960 Now again, back to globalization really with the US dollar as 215 00:11:02,960 --> 00:11:07,080 that core sort of centralizing force that goes beyond borders 216 00:11:07,080 --> 00:11:11,200 because it's the world reserve currency and that type of 217 00:11:11,200 --> 00:11:13,920 centralization. You can see the effects. 218 00:11:13,920 --> 00:11:16,040 You can see the effects. You mentioned the 4th turning. 219 00:11:16,320 --> 00:11:19,600 I fully, you know, I'm one of the people in the industry that 220 00:11:19,600 --> 00:11:24,400 is sort of banging on that drum and saying we are absolutely in 221 00:11:24,400 --> 00:11:26,440 a fourth turning. And you know, that's debatable 222 00:11:26,440 --> 00:11:28,480 what that term means or how you define it. 223 00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:31,960 But in my mind, it's very clear to me that we're in sort of that 224 00:11:31,960 --> 00:11:35,360 fourth quarter, you know, the last quarter of the game and the 225 00:11:35,360 --> 00:11:38,040 game is about to change. And when you talk about all the 226 00:11:38,040 --> 00:11:41,600 chaos, to me that's that's a signal of the fourth turning. 227 00:11:41,600 --> 00:11:44,520 When you have all this chaos, you realize the system is sort 228 00:11:44,520 --> 00:11:47,480 of starting to break. It's starting to break and 229 00:11:47,480 --> 00:11:50,240 something else has to emerge. And to me, those two things, 230 00:11:50,240 --> 00:11:52,560 which is what, you know, my book, my, my new book's about 231 00:11:52,560 --> 00:11:55,640 and also these articles is sort of like the emergence of Bitcoin 232 00:11:55,640 --> 00:11:59,560 and AI and those two together. And I believe that can bring us 233 00:11:59,560 --> 00:12:02,840 into that, that with that fork in the road, I think that can 234 00:12:02,840 --> 00:12:06,760 take us from this sort of 4th turning that has been brought on 235 00:12:06,760 --> 00:12:12,320 by extreme centralization and unhealthy globalized 236 00:12:12,320 --> 00:12:15,680 centralization from the US dollar and the powers and the 237 00:12:15,680 --> 00:12:19,440 power structures of other countries back to a more 238 00:12:19,440 --> 00:12:24,520 decentralized reality where we can kind of operate sort of 239 00:12:24,520 --> 00:12:27,040 without the Big Brother. And the Big Brother is trying 240 00:12:27,040 --> 00:12:29,400 everything it can. All the CBDC's that are coming 241 00:12:29,400 --> 00:12:32,640 out in Europe, the the genius act, the switch from, you know, 242 00:12:32,720 --> 00:12:35,120 over from analog money to stable coins. 243 00:12:35,360 --> 00:12:39,400 These are all efforts to sort of maintain that central control, 244 00:12:39,680 --> 00:12:42,040 but I believe the forces of Bitcoin and AI are going to 245 00:12:42,040 --> 00:12:45,680 allow us to to settle somewhere far more decentralized than 246 00:12:45,680 --> 00:12:48,080 we've had. Just the whole idea that you can 247 00:12:48,280 --> 00:12:52,320 just use AI to infinitely replicate and reverse engineer 248 00:12:52,320 --> 00:12:57,520 any other well, especially digital product or service or 249 00:12:57,520 --> 00:13:01,160 tech that you come across. Today I saw a guy I know from my 250 00:13:01,160 --> 00:13:04,160 country, he made like a cursor for hardware. 251 00:13:04,360 --> 00:13:06,880 So he just said like, this is what I want to build with 252 00:13:07,000 --> 00:13:08,640 hardware. Then it searches on the Internet 253 00:13:08,640 --> 00:13:11,920 for all the components he has to buy, which are stupid cheap by 254 00:13:11,920 --> 00:13:13,800 the way. And then he says, OK, I have all 255 00:13:13,800 --> 00:13:16,080 the components. And then, you know, the AI says, 256 00:13:16,080 --> 00:13:19,040 you know, wire this with this thing and then the display there 257 00:13:19,040 --> 00:13:21,640 and whatnot. And then, oh, here's the code, 258 00:13:21,840 --> 00:13:25,200 copy it on your Raspberry Pi or whatever and boom, it, it 259 00:13:25,200 --> 00:13:26,760 worked. And that's just a random dude 260 00:13:26,760 --> 00:13:30,120 that has never touched hardware in his life before he did this 261 00:13:30,320 --> 00:13:32,960 right? So stuff like that is already 262 00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:37,080 happening today. And I think it it, it, it 263 00:13:37,080 --> 00:13:40,440 touches people somewhere, you know, in their creative mind, 264 00:13:40,440 --> 00:13:44,040 the fact that productivity is basically democratized now and 265 00:13:44,040 --> 00:13:47,600 it's all about applying your, your creativity basically. 266 00:13:47,920 --> 00:13:52,000 And so I think that's an underestimated part of this 267 00:13:52,000 --> 00:13:54,400 technology that it has a central roll out. 268 00:13:54,600 --> 00:13:58,000 But eventually people will demand and and clearly see that 269 00:13:58,000 --> 00:14:01,400 their ideas shouldn't be captured in this black box that 270 00:14:01,400 --> 00:14:03,640 they're that they connected their Visa card to, right? 271 00:14:03,640 --> 00:14:05,840 Does that make sense? Ohh, yeah, absolutely. 272 00:14:05,840 --> 00:14:08,200 I track exactly with what you you're saying and I agree with 273 00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:09,880 you. I would say just to add on to 274 00:14:09,880 --> 00:14:12,520 that point, you know, I think we'll see a continued 275 00:14:12,520 --> 00:14:17,320 fragmentation of just sort of products, services and markets 276 00:14:17,360 --> 00:14:20,640 in general because of what you just said, because any, anyone 277 00:14:20,640 --> 00:14:23,320 now can basically go and build something. 278 00:14:23,320 --> 00:14:24,720 You don't have to know how to be a coder. 279 00:14:24,720 --> 00:14:26,520 You don't have to go to school to become an engineer 280 00:14:26,520 --> 00:14:29,000 programmer. We've basically now gotten to 281 00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:31,720 the place where people are just starting to build their own 282 00:14:32,440 --> 00:14:35,120 products and services. And in a, in a way, you can see 283 00:14:35,120 --> 00:14:39,720 how that leads into a world of decentralization right where now 284 00:14:39,720 --> 00:14:43,040 you don't need to use the big, you know, service being provided 285 00:14:43,040 --> 00:14:44,760 by the multibillion dollar company. 286 00:14:44,840 --> 00:14:47,920 And you don't need to pay that company, you know, $100 a month 287 00:14:47,920 --> 00:14:49,840 or $1000 a year for the software. 288 00:14:49,960 --> 00:14:52,240 You just go build it. You go with your open claw and 289 00:14:52,240 --> 00:14:55,800 you spin up your, your, you know, the, the hardware that you 290 00:14:55,800 --> 00:14:57,200 need and you build it relatively cheaply. 291 00:14:57,200 --> 00:14:59,560 And now you have it. So I think it's, we're entering 292 00:14:59,560 --> 00:15:02,440 a completely different world. You know, I come from an 293 00:15:02,440 --> 00:15:04,360 entrepreneurial background where I love to build. 294 00:15:04,560 --> 00:15:07,280 And that was like such a small percentage of the population. 295 00:15:07,440 --> 00:15:10,720 And it's like now all the sudden, everyone can be a 296 00:15:10,720 --> 00:15:13,320 builder, everyone can create, you know, which is I think a 297 00:15:13,320 --> 00:15:14,560 good thing. I think it's a good thing. 298 00:15:15,240 --> 00:15:17,960 You also mentioned the alignment problem, right, which is the the 299 00:15:17,960 --> 00:15:21,280 fear that AI will optimize for a goal, like the paper clip 300 00:15:21,280 --> 00:15:23,320 production problem. I love that you mentioned that 301 00:15:23,320 --> 00:15:26,280 because I read that once and it scared me, you know? 302 00:15:26,320 --> 00:15:28,960 So it is, it's. Yeah. 303 00:15:29,120 --> 00:15:32,440 So it's about how AI optimizes for a goal until it consumes the 304 00:15:32,440 --> 00:15:35,080 planet, basically. So I'll, I'll, I have the 305 00:15:35,080 --> 00:15:36,720 definition. I'll read it and then ask you 306 00:15:36,720 --> 00:15:39,200 the question. It says the paper clip maximizer 307 00:15:39,200 --> 00:15:42,320 is a fault experiment where an AI is told to make as many paper 308 00:15:42,320 --> 00:15:45,720 clips as possible because it has no moral context and infinite 309 00:15:45,720 --> 00:15:47,920 speed. It eventually turns the entire 310 00:15:47,920 --> 00:15:51,360 planet, including humans, into paper clips to meet its its 311 00:15:51,360 --> 00:15:54,720 goal. It sounds absurd, right? 312 00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:56,440 But it ties back to what you just said. 313 00:15:56,440 --> 00:16:00,760 Like if we, if we don't use this properly, if you don't prompt it 314 00:16:00,760 --> 00:16:03,480 properly, if you, if you're not clear about the input that 315 00:16:03,480 --> 00:16:07,720 you're, that you're giving it, you're, you're basically getting 316 00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:10,640 the output that you want. If you, if you didn't realize 317 00:16:10,640 --> 00:16:13,680 what you actually wanted. I, I, I think, right. 318 00:16:13,680 --> 00:16:17,200 So I, I think AI really demands this conscious use. 319 00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:21,320 And as we know, not everyone is, is conscious at the, at the same 320 00:16:21,320 --> 00:16:23,520 level, right? So there will be stuff that that 321 00:16:23,520 --> 00:16:26,360 goes wrong. I think in article you argue 322 00:16:26,360 --> 00:16:31,040 Bitcoin fixes this alignment problem by it can introduce an 323 00:16:31,080 --> 00:16:33,160 economic finality. Yes, that. 324 00:16:33,240 --> 00:16:36,560 So there's so much here that we can talk about in many different 325 00:16:36,560 --> 00:16:41,240 offshoots, but let me just tackle, try to tackle a few of 326 00:16:41,240 --> 00:16:44,680 the, the things you mentioned. First, to clarify the alignment 327 00:16:44,680 --> 00:16:49,360 problem, What what I mean by that is back to how we described 328 00:16:49,480 --> 00:16:57,440 AI as a mirror, right? AI is built based off of and and 329 00:16:57,440 --> 00:17:01,560 operates based off of inputs. And those inputs come from 330 00:17:01,560 --> 00:17:06,640 humans and we're at the place now, which is the scary part to 331 00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:11,440 where after you have enough inputs into the, into the system 332 00:17:12,160 --> 00:17:17,160 and you've got you, you sort of have the infrastructure built 333 00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:22,599 out far enough those the AI can start to then become autonomous, 334 00:17:22,599 --> 00:17:26,680 meaning it can go do stuff, it can go do tasks, you know, 335 00:17:26,680 --> 00:17:29,760 without the human. So it starts with the inputs 336 00:17:29,760 --> 00:17:32,760 that builds the model. So that kind of like creates 337 00:17:32,760 --> 00:17:36,160 the, the vehicle, if you will, and then the vehicle can go 338 00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:37,760 drive around on its own eventually. 339 00:17:37,760 --> 00:17:39,720 And that's sort of where we're at right now. 340 00:17:40,040 --> 00:17:44,640 The alignment problem is, is that is sort of the space in 341 00:17:44,640 --> 00:17:48,200 between. Like how did the inputs affect 342 00:17:48,200 --> 00:17:52,560 the outputs of what these autonomous, this new species is 343 00:17:52,560 --> 00:17:55,080 going to be doing without us, right? 344 00:17:55,080 --> 00:17:58,120 Without us looking, without us watching, without us paying 345 00:17:58,120 --> 00:18:01,000 attention. And if our alignment, meaning 346 00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:05,200 the inputs are not, let's say ethical, moral, there's no 347 00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:07,240 safeguards, there's no guardrails. 348 00:18:07,600 --> 00:18:11,800 If that's not there, then our alignment is going to be off. 349 00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:16,480 And if our alignment is off and you have a machine or machines 350 00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:20,400 that are now autonomous that are doing things by themselves, we 351 00:18:20,400 --> 00:18:23,680 could run into some very, very bad situations. 352 00:18:23,880 --> 00:18:27,560 And that's the paper clip example is like a fun. 353 00:18:27,760 --> 00:18:32,440 It's like a fun but scary actual real possible example to where 354 00:18:32,720 --> 00:18:36,160 I'll repeat it back is you tell the AII want you to go, you 355 00:18:36,160 --> 00:18:39,560 know, produce paper clips because I'm going to, I don't 356 00:18:39,560 --> 00:18:42,040 know, I want to go start a paper clip company and sell paper 357 00:18:42,040 --> 00:18:44,800 clips, whatever. And I just say go, go, go 358 00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:47,600 produce, let's go make as many paper clips as you can make. 359 00:18:48,120 --> 00:18:54,240 And if the AI has no guardrails, then theoretically, if that AI 360 00:18:54,240 --> 00:18:57,920 is optimized, it would turn literally everything into a 361 00:18:57,920 --> 00:19:01,160 paper clip and you can just sort of play out the story to it 362 00:19:01,160 --> 00:19:03,600 sounds ridiculous at first, but if you think about it, just 363 00:19:03,600 --> 00:19:08,440 imagine like some AI program and it's it's figuring out how to do 364 00:19:08,440 --> 00:19:09,960 things. It's starting to make some 365 00:19:09,960 --> 00:19:11,720 calls. It's you know, you see this on 366 00:19:11,720 --> 00:19:13,400 open claw already. So this stuff is already 367 00:19:13,400 --> 00:19:15,400 happening. You know, Alex Finn just put out 368 00:19:15,400 --> 00:19:18,160 a post on X, you know, where his his clawed bots like calling 369 00:19:18,160 --> 00:19:19,720 him, you know, it's like calling that that was wild. 370 00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:22,320 You know, it's Henry. I mean, it's not that wild to 371 00:19:22,320 --> 00:19:24,160 me, me personally, because I know how this tech works. 372 00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:29,680 Like it's not that crazy. But the point is, you know, he 373 00:19:29,760 --> 00:19:33,640 set the inputs and he's let it go and now the robot's doing 374 00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:35,240 stuff and the robot side of the column. 375 00:19:35,440 --> 00:19:39,320 So imagine, you know, that the robot's calling, you know, metal 376 00:19:39,480 --> 00:19:42,400 distributors that the product, you know, and figuring out how 377 00:19:42,400 --> 00:19:46,360 to sort of get get the materials to create paper clips at a cheap 378 00:19:46,360 --> 00:19:48,160 rate. It figures out how to become 379 00:19:48,160 --> 00:19:50,240 profitable doing that. And then it just starts 380 00:19:50,240 --> 00:19:53,240 consuming everything and turning everything into paper clips. 381 00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:56,440 And if it's good at it, it will then execute that and it won't 382 00:19:56,440 --> 00:20:00,040 stop because it thinks the AI thinks it's doing its job and it 383 00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:02,440 and it actually is based on the inputs. 384 00:20:02,840 --> 00:20:06,240 But clearly me, the guy that wants a paper clip company, I 385 00:20:06,240 --> 00:20:07,920 don't want you to be turned into a paper clip. 386 00:20:07,920 --> 00:20:10,160 I don't want the entire world to be turned into paper clips, 387 00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:12,400 right. So you get into this very 388 00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:16,800 difficult situation and. You know, people like Graham a 389 00:20:16,800 --> 00:20:19,240 lot, a lot of folks right now are worried about jobs, right? 390 00:20:19,240 --> 00:20:21,600 Like, what are we going to do once the AI takes over? 391 00:20:21,720 --> 00:20:23,960 And I think that this is actually going to be one of the 392 00:20:23,960 --> 00:20:27,360 biggest jobs is that we are going to have to have humans 393 00:20:27,520 --> 00:20:30,560 that are just watching for these alignment problems. 394 00:20:30,560 --> 00:20:34,640 We, we have to, there's no other solution because we're the, 395 00:20:34,640 --> 00:20:36,720 we're the humans. Like there has to be at least 396 00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:39,440 one of us watching, right? I hope more than one. 397 00:20:39,600 --> 00:20:42,080 So I think there's going to be lots of us that are working on 398 00:20:42,080 --> 00:20:44,720 this alignment problem, which is essentially just a way of saying 399 00:20:44,720 --> 00:20:47,320 monitoring. Like we just need to monitor the 400 00:20:47,320 --> 00:20:51,320 ethics and the morals and the guardrails of these inputs and 401 00:20:51,320 --> 00:20:53,400 how the outputs are affected by those inputs. 402 00:20:54,880 --> 00:20:59,840 So, so, yeah, I mean, I think that so Bitcoin back to that 403 00:20:59,840 --> 00:21:01,600 point is sort of the anchor, right? 404 00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:04,800 And that is that is my, my argument really for my entire 405 00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:08,680 book life after Bitcoin, which is sort of this like theoretical 406 00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:12,600 version of the future that I think if we get it right, things 407 00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:16,280 will go very well. And to me that that solution is 408 00:21:16,280 --> 00:21:21,480 Bitcoin as the anchor for AI. And I think of AI as the engine 409 00:21:21,880 --> 00:21:24,520 and I think of Bitcoin as the guardrails. 410 00:21:24,760 --> 00:21:28,640 So AI is an engine with infinite productivity, right? 411 00:21:28,640 --> 00:21:31,800 It doesn't sleep, it doesn't forget, it doesn't need to eat, 412 00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:33,160 it doesn't need a bathroom break. 413 00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:39,240 It can go as fast as we want it to go, but there's such a thing 414 00:21:39,240 --> 00:21:41,520 as too fast. I'm an entrepreneur. 415 00:21:41,520 --> 00:21:44,360 I love moving fast, but there is such a thing as too fast. 416 00:21:44,760 --> 00:21:49,080 And Bitcoin is the only thing that I that I believe can 417 00:21:49,080 --> 00:21:54,400 wrangle that speed of AII. Don't think it's regulation way 418 00:21:54,400 --> 00:21:56,080 too slow. I don't think it's any kind of 419 00:21:56,080 --> 00:22:00,800 government or institutional interaction Too slow. 420 00:22:01,080 --> 00:22:04,560 We need something programmatic. We need something based on math. 421 00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:07,680 We need something based on physics, and that's Bitcoin. 422 00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:09,920 Bitcoin is basically unchangeable. 423 00:22:10,040 --> 00:22:12,360 It's a set of rules, it's a set of parameters. 424 00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:14,920 It's baked into the into the Bitcoin code. 425 00:22:14,920 --> 00:22:18,600 It's open source and we know how that that system works. 426 00:22:18,840 --> 00:22:22,120 So if you imagine, again, let's go back to the example of the 427 00:22:22,120 --> 00:22:24,040 paper clips. Let's say we have all these AIS 428 00:22:24,040 --> 00:22:25,400 running around. They're all doing different 429 00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:26,880 things. Some are creating paper clips, 430 00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:30,000 some are building buildings and robots that are going to go to 431 00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:31,520 the moon and they're doing all these things. 432 00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:36,160 If they're all transacting in different currencies, all these 433 00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:38,400 different tokens, all this different stuff, they're making 434 00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:40,680 up their own currencies. They're speaking in languages we 435 00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:43,280 don't know. The robots, we're we're fucked. 436 00:22:43,760 --> 00:22:46,640 If that happens, we're fucked. Like period. 437 00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:51,040 So you heard the jabber talk. Did you hear the jabber talk? 438 00:22:52,840 --> 00:22:55,680 It says like, should we should we should we switch to. 439 00:22:55,680 --> 00:22:57,280 I don't know. It has a, it has a name. 440 00:22:57,280 --> 00:22:58,840 It's not jabber talk. Maybe it's jabber talk. 441 00:22:58,840 --> 00:23:02,320 I don't know. And it's like 3 AIS on speech 442 00:23:02,320 --> 00:23:04,320 mode, 3 fonts next to each other. 443 00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:06,840 And once we switch to this and this and this and they're like, 444 00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:09,600 yeah, yeah. And then it goes like, and it 445 00:23:09,640 --> 00:23:12,200 goes like, and you have no clue. You, you don't know. 446 00:23:12,360 --> 00:23:14,840 Well, it's, it's known what they're using, right. 447 00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:17,560 But when you're just looking at it like you and I would have. 448 00:23:17,560 --> 00:23:19,960 No, no. Right, right. 449 00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:22,320 What they would actually be? Right, This is this is the this 450 00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:25,040 is the danger. So we can't have the robots 451 00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:28,400 operating on different rails. Do we all need to be on the same 452 00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:31,560 rails? And so that Bitcoin rail is to 453 00:23:31,560 --> 00:23:33,680 me, you know, I see Bitcoin as truth. 454 00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:36,760 I see it as the only immutable truth system that has ever 455 00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:39,280 existed. I see it in a what it as a once 456 00:23:39,280 --> 00:23:42,720 in a species event. You know, I, I compare Bitcoin 457 00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:46,520 or I sort of stack it up with other things like protocols like 458 00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:51,440 fire language, language itself, you know, the, the printing 459 00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:54,400 press, the Internet, right? These are things that are just 460 00:23:54,400 --> 00:23:56,880 structurally they're just protocols. 461 00:23:57,480 --> 00:24:01,320 And if humans and AI both operate on that singular Bitcoin 462 00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:05,160 protocol, then I believe we will go into the next golden age. 463 00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:07,840 And I think economies of scale will start to happen. 464 00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:11,960 I think productivity and, and cost will start to trend to 0. 465 00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:17,280 So I, I follow the same thought theories as Jeff Booth, right, 466 00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:19,120 in terms of deflationary economies. 467 00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:22,040 And so it, but it's all predicated on the AIS using 468 00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:24,200 Bitcoin. That's the only way that this 469 00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:26,120 works. All the spiritual teachers talk 470 00:24:26,120 --> 00:24:27,560 about the golden middle way, right? 471 00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:29,400 And that's what the story of Icarus is also about. 472 00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:32,880 Like he, he got wings, right? He flew too close to the sun, he 473 00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:34,720 fell down. But the the the moral of the 474 00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:38,480 story, that that's how I understand it, is not about the 475 00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:41,920 hubris, right? It's about where you need to 476 00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:45,000 stay. Like the hubris is the same. 477 00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:47,600 Yeah, exactly. The hubris is the same as the 478 00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:50,840 not even trying, but it's a different intensity. 479 00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:52,160 So it should it should be in the middle. 480 00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:54,640 Like you should try, but you shouldn't show too much hubris. 481 00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:57,400 All you know you'll touch the sun, and you and you fall. 482 00:24:57,600 --> 00:25:02,960 OK, the AI is the wings, very Icarus. 483 00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:06,200 Bitcoin is gravity. Exactly. 484 00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:08,360 Yes, yes, that's perfect. Yeah. 485 00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:10,560 And it's also. Yeah, It's it's literally to 486 00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:12,920 keep you in check. It's to keep you. 487 00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:15,200 Keep you it's. The balancing force. 488 00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:17,480 Bitcoin is the balancing force I talk about. 489 00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:19,680 I love that gravity. I talk about Bitcoin as the 490 00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:21,080 black hole that consumes everything. 491 00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:24,560 It it the whole universe, our entire everything we know and 492 00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:27,320 understand. It's all counter balances. 493 00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:31,080 We we're on a spinning rust. It's floating in nothingness. 494 00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:34,240 How does that happen? It's because there's forces at 495 00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:36,800 play that is keeping everything in the balance. 496 00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:39,200 Bitcoin is that counterbalance to AI. 497 00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:45,200 When we talk about scarcity and abundance, we're talking about 498 00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:47,400 them in sort of different contexts. 499 00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:49,480 And we're all, and it also depends. 500 00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:51,520 So it depends on the context, OK. 501 00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:52,960 And, and how you talk about these things. 502 00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:55,920 And I want to just make a quick example and a point. 503 00:25:56,360 --> 00:26:00,000 So when you talk about Bitcoin and you talk about absolute 504 00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:03,920 scarcity, we're talking about 21 million tokens. 505 00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:06,720 We're talking about the fact that that can't be changed, that 506 00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:10,240 it can't be diluted, OK? A lot of the problems, in fact, 507 00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:14,360 I would say probably the core problem of all other money is 508 00:26:14,360 --> 00:26:16,280 that it's diluted. It becomes diluted. 509 00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:18,600 We just make more of stuff. We figure out ways we find more 510 00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:20,360 gold. We shave, you know, the edges 511 00:26:20,360 --> 00:26:23,680 off of coins, we print more paper, whatever it is. 512 00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:27,280 And that's just a, that is a natural entropy that is going to 513 00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:30,520 happen. It is just a sort of human 514 00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:32,200 phenomenon that we've seen in history. 515 00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:34,480 We can just be, I can give you example after example. 516 00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:39,960 So Satoshi Nakamoto figured out a way to stop that where you 517 00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:42,720 can't shave any coins off of Bitcoin, You can't create any 518 00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:44,680 new ones. And I'm not going to get into 519 00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:47,280 the to the technical details of how that happens, but just just 520 00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:50,080 just, if you're listening, follow me and just accept that 521 00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:51,800 for a moment. Now here's what you have to 522 00:26:51,800 --> 00:27:00,440 understand. Bitcoin is it is, it's not, it's 523 00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:03,800 not infinitely divisible, but is highly divisible, right? 524 00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:06,760 We can, we can divide it down into the satoshi, right? 525 00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:09,680 Which is, I think 9 decimal points, right, decimal places. 526 00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:12,600 So I think, I think, don't quote me on the value of a satoshi 527 00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:14,240 right now, but I think it's under a penny. 528 00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:17,560 I think once we get over 100 or something, it starts to become 529 00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:20,280 maybe like a penny, a satoshi. So I think we're like fractions 530 00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:22,200 of a penny per satoshi right now, right? 531 00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:27,960 And I think what's important for people to understand is that as 532 00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:32,720 more and more people start adopting Bitcoin, the value of 533 00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:37,600 each one of those Satoshi's and each Bitcoin continues to rise 534 00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:40,920 because more and more people are coming in and, and, and playing 535 00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:43,960 with this is a, this is a, this is economics, This is something 536 00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:45,480 you have to study. It's really sort of 537 00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:48,480 counterintuitive for people who don't study it. 538 00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:52,040 So I encourage everyone to try to just read about economics, 539 00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:55,840 read about supply and demand. But the fact that the, there are 540 00:27:55,840 --> 00:27:58,840 21 million tokens, but that they're divisible and that the 541 00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:02,560 value of each one of those units will increase as adoption 542 00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:04,800 increases. That is the magic. 543 00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:07,720 That is the, that is the key here that we have 1 measuring 544 00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:10,120 stick. That measuring stick is defined 545 00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:13,720 each one of those SAT's, each one of these bitcoins, it's all 546 00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:16,200 backed up by energy, which is tangible. 547 00:28:16,360 --> 00:28:18,440 Every SAT, every Bitcoin was mined. 548 00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:22,040 In order to mine it, there had to be energy expended. 549 00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:24,120 And so that, and that energy is measurable. 550 00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:26,160 That's real. We can measure that energy. 551 00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:27,960 That's the heat that comes out of the computer. 552 00:28:28,120 --> 00:28:30,800 That's the, the, you know how, how much work it takes for us to 553 00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:32,320 set up the system and do the stuff. 554 00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:35,280 So again, it is very hard for people to wrap their heads 555 00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:38,760 around, but like this is the first time that we've actually 556 00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:41,680 had any measuring stick. We've never had a measuring 557 00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:44,040 stick. Everyone thinks $1.00 is $1.00. 558 00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:47,960 That's bullshit. $1.00 is just a piece of paper that you hold in 559 00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:49,920 your hand. The purchasing power of that 560 00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:54,240 dollar is changing all the time because it's getting debased all 561 00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:56,560 the time. And so, you know, again, it's 562 00:28:56,560 --> 00:28:59,320 just sort of this function. If you, once you see it, you 563 00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:02,400 can't Unsee it, which is like why, you know, people talk about 564 00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:05,320 the matrix. It's like we can see that value 565 00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:09,120 people like me and you, we see people like more and more value 566 00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:12,440 flowing into the system. And as more and more value flows 567 00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:14,680 into the system, that's number go up. 568 00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:17,480 That's number go up. And like every, every time that 569 00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:20,040 the that the number goes down, It's just people not 570 00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:22,000 understanding how the system works. 571 00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:24,040 You and I know this. So it just becomes this 572 00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:27,080 hilarious game where we're like watching the value flow in. 573 00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:27,880 Why? Aren't a Bitcoin? 574 00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:30,480 They're so crazy. Watching people trade out like 575 00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:31,960 you're trading. Whenever you trade out of 576 00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:34,880 Bitcoin, you're trading real money, real energy, actual 577 00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:36,760 tangible value for something fake. 578 00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:40,680 A fake dollar, a fake stock. Bitcoin is not an asset. 579 00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:43,240 It is so much more than an asset. 580 00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:47,600 It has some coins that we that we tie a dollar value to and 581 00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:51,200 that's a number go up stat. But I don't care if all the 582 00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:53,400 dollars in the world go to nothing, right? 583 00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:56,120 That that that argument, it doesn't matter because Bitcoin 584 00:29:56,120 --> 00:29:59,320 isn't a single solitary like it's a measuring stick, right? 585 00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:01,680 So if all the dollars go away, it's just going to measure 586 00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:03,280 something else. It's going to measure. 587 00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:05,400 It's going to measure gold, it's going to measure apples, it's 588 00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:08,960 going to measure barrels of oil. It doesn't matter, you know, if 589 00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:12,280 if the US dollar disappears, it's not like Bitcoin goes away. 590 00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:15,080 And that's just, that's just the fallacy of an American thinking 591 00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:17,600 in U.S. dollar terms. It's very hard for us to think 592 00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:20,360 outside of dollar terms. But if you, if you start to 593 00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:22,840 realize Bitcoin is not like a stock, it's not an asset, it's a 594 00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:25,520 measuring stick. It's a measuring stick for value 595 00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:28,320 and it's the sandbox for money, and it's the only real money 596 00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:32,000 that's ever existed, then you start to see why it doesn't 597 00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:33,480 really matter what the dollar is doing. 598 00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:35,080 It doesn't really matter what gold's doing. 599 00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:39,840 For my European friends that want to buy Bitcoin with ease, 600 00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:42,680 check out Relay. I've been a long time fan and 601 00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:45,800 happy to partner up with what I think is the best Bitcoin only 602 00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:49,120 platform for Europeans. They offer a super simple 603 00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:53,320 beginner friendly app with no distractions and no shit coins. 604 00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:56,920 You can do a quick one time smash buy or set up automatic 605 00:30:56,920 --> 00:30:59,200 purchases when you're stacking regularly. 606 00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:01,200 And here's the thing that matters most. 607 00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:06,080 Relay is 100% self custody. Every set you hold is yours, 608 00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:09,200 your keys, your coins. If you want to get started, 609 00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:11,920 download the app file in my link below or in the description and 610 00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:15,120 use code BRUM. That's BR AM at checkout to get 611 00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:18,240 10% of your fees. A huge shout out to Relay for 612 00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:20,200 sponsoring the show. Now let's continue. 613 00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:23,560 So your book is called Life after Bitcoin. 614 00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:28,040 And you mentioned that we can fix the survival problem. 615 00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:30,680 We can have hard money, we can have a proper reward for our 616 00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:32,640 work. We can basically build anything 617 00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:36,360 with AI, robots, etcetera. But then you talk about 618 00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:40,320 demeaning crisis. So humans have always used, 619 00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:44,240 we've always used our, our intellect to gain an economic 620 00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:49,160 advantage or to, to, to create a certain economic reward, right? 621 00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:52,720 But that's going to be gone. I I think you would agree. 622 00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:54,880 So diminish what do? People. 623 00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:57,240 What do people actually do with our time and with their time? 624 00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:01,000 How, how, how do people find purpose again? 625 00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:02,680 What is that? Well, what does that look like? 626 00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:07,480 Sure, This is a great question. So this gets into the later 627 00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:11,280 stages of my book and my theory, which kind of takes us into what 628 00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:16,120 I call the Golden Age. And I draw comparisons to the 629 00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:20,040 first Renaissance, which is sort of like the Medici's, the 630 00:32:20,040 --> 00:32:22,360 florin. They did a very good job keeping 631 00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:23,840 their money hard. They didn't debase it. 632 00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:25,840 And this is sort of the Enlightenment escape birth to 633 00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:27,080 the Renaissance, the Enlightenment. 634 00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:29,720 And if you look at that period, what do you see? 635 00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:33,880 You see beautiful architecture. You see a proliferation of art. 636 00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:36,320 You see, you know, the the buildings that they built back 637 00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:38,800 then are still standing, you know, hundreds and hundreds of 638 00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:41,680 years later, some of the best art pieces and some of the most 639 00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:45,560 beautiful content ever created came out of those periods. 640 00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:49,000 Why? Very simple. 641 00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:54,840 People could could relax. People could take a breath. 642 00:32:55,520 --> 00:32:59,400 We haven't been able to take a breath for hundreds of years. 643 00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:02,480 We don't realize we're in the silent depression right now. 644 00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:05,240 We're oppressed. We don't know because we've been 645 00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:07,640 living through it through generations and we just think 646 00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:10,360 this is how it is. This is not how it has to be. 647 00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:15,160 This is the battle for humanity. It's the battle for our energy 648 00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:17,320 back. It's the battle for our time 649 00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:20,200 back. We're not meant to be hurriedly 650 00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:22,720 rushing around, scrambling to try to figure out how to get the 651 00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:25,120 next dollar. That is not what we're supposed 652 00:33:25,120 --> 00:33:28,800 to be on this planet doing. We're supposed to be here 653 00:33:29,080 --> 00:33:33,560 thinking, growing, evolving, playing around, messing around, 654 00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:38,520 being curious. So I believe what happens is we 655 00:33:38,520 --> 00:33:42,480 go to a world where all of the sudden all of these problems 656 00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:44,600 start to crumble away, start to fall away. 657 00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:48,560 Governments get smaller. The whole globalization, Big 658 00:33:48,560 --> 00:33:51,920 Brother government, that whole experiment is over. 659 00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:55,520 We start to go bottom up. We start to build communities 660 00:33:55,520 --> 00:33:58,480 from the bottom up. And those communities run on 661 00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:02,480 Bitcoin and those communities run on AI and those communities 662 00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:05,960 run on whatever you and me and these other entrepreneurs are 663 00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:07,760 building. It's a new era. 664 00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:11,320 It's a new surge of entrepreneurship and creativity 665 00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:14,280 and creation that I think we're just nobody's ready. 666 00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:16,400 I'm not ready, you're not ready because we don't know what we 667 00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:18,320 don't know. And there's so many 668 00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:20,520 entrepreneurs out there that are building right now. 669 00:34:21,639 --> 00:34:24,639 You know, I like to imagine a future where, you know, we're 670 00:34:24,639 --> 00:34:27,520 taking like, I have a 5 year old, OK, my daughter, she's 671 00:34:27,520 --> 00:34:31,239 going to be sick soon. I'm imagining a world where 672 00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:34,480 maybe my daughter's hanging out on the moon every now and then. 673 00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:37,440 Maybe she's hanging out on Mars every now and then, you know, 674 00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:40,400 maybe she's up there, maybe she's up there for a party. 675 00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:44,120 Maybe she's doing a research project up on the moon paid for 676 00:34:44,120 --> 00:34:47,360 by her, her mentor or whoever she's working with. 677 00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:50,440 Like, I think there's going to be a lot of crazy stuff to where 678 00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:55,280 we're just building, creating. We're curious, we're creating 679 00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:59,000 art, we're creating new science, we're creating new, new, new 680 00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:01,320 ways to explore the, the frontier. 681 00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:05,080 You know, I think curiosity is the key to humanity. 682 00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:09,400 And I think curiosity has been completely suppressed and pretty 683 00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:12,040 much destroyed and erased from society. 684 00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:14,960 If you look around there, there hasn't been a lot of curiosity 685 00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:18,000 and creativity over the last 4050, sixty years. 686 00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:20,840 Our architecture sucks, our systems suck, everything sucks. 687 00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:24,320 The government systems suck. Like it's not very impressive. 688 00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:26,560 And then you look back at the good, the first golden era, at 689 00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:29,480 the first Renaissance, I mean, all those cathedrals, all the 690 00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:30,680 things they were building and doing. 691 00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:32,600 I mean, it's incredible. I want to get back to that. 692 00:35:32,960 --> 00:35:36,760 And so I I see a world where I think we just move a lot more 693 00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:42,320 toward creativity, creation, invention, science, and just 694 00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:44,840 just starting to understand the universe. 695 00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:49,880 If we, if we think about everything we talked about as 696 00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:54,760 being this civilizational fork. Also, I think in the, the 697 00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:58,080 attitudes of people and especially people that are, are 698 00:35:58,080 --> 00:36:03,520 way younger than us that are like at the beginning of their 699 00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:07,160 adult life. How, how would you talk to an 18 700 00:36:07,160 --> 00:36:10,960 or 21 year old that that has like a nihilistic idea of the 701 00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:14,280 future? Like how can we tell them that 702 00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:19,520 they can be architects or actors in everything that is happening 703 00:36:19,520 --> 00:36:22,280 here instead of kind of being like spectators or, or, or 704 00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:30,920 bystanders? Well, I am middle-aged at this 705 00:36:30,920 --> 00:36:36,240 point and life is goes faster than then you can possibly 706 00:36:36,240 --> 00:36:42,320 imagine and I like to think that I have some wisdom. 707 00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:50,720 I think I do at this point. However, young people continue 708 00:36:50,720 --> 00:36:54,760 to impress me and I don't know if they need much. 709 00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:59,160 Honestly. I think for me, I think my job 710 00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:03,080 is to just get out here, do these podcasts, write my stuff, 711 00:37:03,080 --> 00:37:08,320 put out sort of my thoughts and I believe the right young people 712 00:37:08,320 --> 00:37:10,760 will will pick it up. I think they're already picking 713 00:37:10,760 --> 00:37:12,200 it up. I think a lot of them don't even 714 00:37:12,200 --> 00:37:15,920 need to pick it up. I'm so impressed by the the 715 00:37:15,920 --> 00:37:19,360 generation right now that's, you know, call it like whatever it 716 00:37:19,360 --> 00:37:21,680 is. I guess it's is it is it ZI 717 00:37:21,680 --> 00:37:23,360 think it's Generation Z, maybe alpha. 718 00:37:23,360 --> 00:37:25,240 I think my daughters alpha. She's a little too young. 719 00:37:25,240 --> 00:37:27,040 She's not old enough to do stuff yet. 720 00:37:27,040 --> 00:37:30,080 But the people in their teens, the teenagers right now, the 721 00:37:30,080 --> 00:37:33,760 people in that are like college age, they, they're, they're 722 00:37:33,760 --> 00:37:36,240 smarter than we are, man. Like they know what's going on. 723 00:37:36,240 --> 00:37:37,520 They see the writing on the wall. 724 00:37:37,520 --> 00:37:40,880 Like, you know, like, I think a lot, I think fewer folks are 725 00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:42,960 going to go to college. You know, I think fewer folks 726 00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:45,120 are going to kind of go into the centralized systems. 727 00:37:45,120 --> 00:37:47,600 I think fewer young people are going to have any interest in 728 00:37:47,600 --> 00:37:49,400 government, going into government jobs going to be 729 00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:50,840 like, this is not, this is not for me. 730 00:37:51,160 --> 00:37:53,720 I'm going to go over here and I'm going to work with my AI 731 00:37:53,720 --> 00:37:57,000 agent and I'm going to build the next billion multibillion dollar 732 00:37:57,000 --> 00:37:58,560 company and it's going to do XYZ. 733 00:37:58,760 --> 00:38:02,080 So I'm very hopeful for the builders, the entrepreneurs, the 734 00:38:02,080 --> 00:38:07,080 young people, you know, I think every generation is, is just 735 00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:10,160 doing the best they can. And I'm no different. 736 00:38:10,600 --> 00:38:15,800 So I just implore everybody, myself, you, everybody to just 737 00:38:16,240 --> 00:38:18,600 speak truth as much as you possibly can. 738 00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:21,440 See, I'm a truth seeker. So I try to seek out the truth 739 00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:25,920 and then I try to voice my opinion on what I believe the 740 00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:28,320 truth to be. And truth is a funny thing. 741 00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:31,200 Truth is a very funny thing because we're all living our own 742 00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:35,000 truth. I see it as almost like a truth 743 00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:37,480 is granular. Everyone is living their own 744 00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:40,760 reality. And we all try to agree on sort 745 00:38:40,760 --> 00:38:44,240 of like what is the base layer of truth? 746 00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:47,360 And that's why I love Bitcoin so much because I think no matter 747 00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:49,720 where you are, on what intelligence scale, how old you 748 00:38:49,720 --> 00:38:52,440 are, your history, your past, whatever you think, Bitcoin can 749 00:38:52,440 --> 00:38:58,880 kind of be that that anchor. But because we're in the fourth 750 00:38:58,880 --> 00:39:03,400 turning, there's massive incentive for everybody to just 751 00:39:04,200 --> 00:39:06,160 pick this stuff up. Just do the right thing. 752 00:39:06,200 --> 00:39:09,080 Get into Bitcoin, get into AI, start messing around with it, 753 00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:12,920 fire up a node, get a get an agent, start start downloading 754 00:39:12,920 --> 00:39:19,240 some software building with AI. I think it's going to happen 755 00:39:19,240 --> 00:39:23,520 organically. I think that's, that's a great 756 00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:25,800 hopeful message. So that's a, that's a good one 757 00:39:25,800 --> 00:39:27,800 to end with. But I do want to ask you my last 758 00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:30,920 question, and I ask everyone the same question, which is what is 759 00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:32,880 a core belief you will never let go of? 760 00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:36,640 The best advice is your own advice. 761 00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:40,680 I like that you're the first person who says that. 762 00:39:40,680 --> 00:39:44,520 That's that's great. OK, that's an amazing ending. 763 00:39:44,520 --> 00:39:50,640 Thanks so much for this talk. Honestly, probably top five 764 00:39:50,640 --> 00:39:52,120 conversations for me. I think. 765 00:39:52,400 --> 00:39:58,000 I think we went very far and I hope people found it valuable. 766 00:39:58,000 --> 00:40:00,840 If you did and you're still listening, let us know in the 767 00:40:00,840 --> 00:40:03,960 comments, please. And if you have any other ideas 768 00:40:03,960 --> 00:40:08,920 or stuff you maybe want Jesse and me to talk about in the 769 00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:11,520 future, let us know. Again, I really enjoyed it. 770 00:40:11,600 --> 00:40:13,160 I want to thank you and. Yeah, yeah. 771 00:40:13,160 --> 00:40:15,920 Let's stay in touch, man. The the failing is mutual my 772 00:40:15,920 --> 00:40:17,080 friend. Thank you so much. 773 00:40:17,840 --> 00:40:19,680 Cheers, I hope you enjoyed this episode. 774 00:40:19,760 --> 00:40:23,000 If you did, you can click here to find more just like it and 775 00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:25,880 click here to find all Bitcoin for Millennials podcast 776 00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:28,200 episodes. Also, if you want to help me 777 00:40:28,200 --> 00:40:32,040 shine a light on the message of Bitcoin, please like this video 778 00:40:32,080 --> 00:40:35,600 and subscribe to stay connected. I hope to see you for the next 779 00:40:35,600 --> 00:40:36,520 episode. Bye.