What if we are approaching A civilizational fork in the road,
where one path leads to algorithmic control and the
other leads to a second renaissance?
I'm joined by Jesse Tevolo, an entrepreneur and best selling
author who is sounding the alarm on this critical juncture.
Together, we unpack his thesis on why AI needs Bitcoin as a
physical anchor to keep machine intelligence aligned with human
truth and stick around to hear why Jesse believes Bitcoin is
our best defense in a world where AI makes it impossible to
know what's real and the one human skill that becomes more
valuable when machines can do everything else.
This was a mind blowing conversation, and I hope you
find it valuable too. Now let's dive in.
Jesse Tavello, welcome to Bitcoin for Millennials.
Thanks for having me Ram. I really appreciate it.
Great to be spending some time with you today.
All right, so you say AI is a mirror.
Now I've used the description Bitcoin is a mirror a lot.
I think in a similar way because you talk about it that you know
that it, that it reflects our our values and it's kind of like
how, how do we apply this, right?
Like how do we instruct it? How, what do we use it for?
And so if our current money system is built on debt, fake
value, right? People say nominal growth, when
the numbers go up, it's actual growth, right?
But it's not. And it's all focused on short
term gains instead of long term building.
It is inevitable, right? That like a centralized force
controls that. How do you feel about that with
AI? Basically, can can it, should it
also be as free as Bitcoin and decentralized or is there a real
chance that would become centralized and like a tool for
manipulation, surveillance, etcetera?
That's a positive question to start.
Well, you also went right to the, you went right to the meet,
you went right to the middle. So, you know, this is I think
maybe arguably the sort of the biggest question of our of our
time is sort of like, you know, how do we continue to move
forward seeing how centralization has really become
a big problem in my mind? I mean, I think we basically had
this massive experiment that we just did over the last call it
quarter century called globalization, right?
We made the US dollar the global reserve currency.
We exported everything. We stopped making things at
home. We did everything based off of,
you know, the cheapest production cost wherever we
could get that, whether it was China or Taiwan or wherever.
And you can just see that, you know, the government, the
centralized systems that we have here in the United States, they
are working off of a debt based system called the US dollar.
It's Fiat money, which I go into a lot of detail about this and
some of my other articles, some of the other writings that I've
done. But you know, if you really
study money like I have for the past several years now, you
know, I went to school for economics and sociology at
Michigan, but they don't actually teach you this stuff at
school. And I think over the last five
years really from from let's say COVID to now here we are at the
beginning of 2026, I think the world's waking up.
You know, I think the average person is finally starting to
understand kind of how money works, what money is.
And I think Bitcoin is honestly the reason for that combined
with the deterioration of the US dollar and regular paper money.
I like to call it toilet paper because that's really all it is.
It's not really, it doesn't really have any value.
The only reason the US dollar has value is because we, we say
it does. And it's hard for people to
understand that. And it almost sounds ridiculous,
but I, I tend to believe that centralized systems are just,
it's a pyramid. The power is going to constantly
flow to the top. If you're familiar with money,
you know the Cantalon effect. I'll just define that for your
listeners and the people that are listening.
It basically means the people that are closest to the creation
of the money are going to get the money first.
It's not rocket science. If you know that you have a
printer and you can print money and you're sitting there and
you're the Fed, the people that are friends and close, close by
to the Fed, whether it's the US government, big institutions,
banks, they get the money 1st. And then once it flows down, the
more and more money that's printed, the prices have to go
up. That's basic economic supply and
demand. You dilute the currency,
everything, the prices are going to rise.
And that's kind of the situation that we find ourselves in.
It's led to AK shaped economy, right?
We have the haves, we have the have nots.
It's getting worse and worse. Middle class is getting hollowed
out back to your sort of main question, you know you said you
think that Bitcoin is a mirror. I agree with that Bitcoin I we
can talk about that for days from the the spiritual side of
Bitcoin, how it changes your mindset, how it really is just a
reflection of us and what we do AI is the same thing and people
in from my from where I sit from what I see and I talked to lots
of entrepreneurs I've been working with startups for over
20 years. I see a lot of the most cutting
edge stuff. And then I can also see what the
general public is doing. And I think a lot of folks are
scared, you know, of AI right now for good reason, because it
kind of feels like its own thing.
And we can get into this brand. But I call it, it's almost like
the emergence of another species.
You know, I think a lot of people would agree with me on
that. We're sort of marching toward,
you know, can the AI do things without us?
Can they become autonomous, completely autonomous?
And it's looking, it's looking like that's going to be
happening relatively soon. We already have Claude bot and
open open Claw and all these people building these agentic AI
systems. So again, back to your question,
AI is going to tend toward becoming centralized.
That's just the nature of humanity.
We tend to have power structures.
The power flows up to the to the to the top of the pyramid.
The people at the top of the pyramid have the most power.
They want to keep the power, so they maintain that structure.
And you see that happening right now, whether we like it or not
with companies like open AI, Sam, you know, we got Sam
Altman, we got Elon building X AI, we've got, those are
probably the two, in my mind, the two biggest players.
And, and look, I love Elon. I'm personally not as fond of,
of, of Sam Altman. I, I don't really, you know, I
don't know either of them, but I tend to sort of like the vision
that Elon has. I use both products, right.
But at the end of the day, like they're both centralized.
And so we say, I said, you know, you mentioned Bitcoin as a
mirror. AI is also a mirror in the sense
that Sam Altman and his team, Elon Musk and their team,
they're building systems in a closed box.
We don't know what they're building.
We can't see what their algos are doing.
We don't know what their AI and it's theirs.
It's not ours. It's their AI.
So we don't know what their AI is operating from.
And that's neither a good thing or a bad thing.
It's just a statement. That's just the truth.
And so I believe we need to go to a decentralized AI type of
system that I hope is going to happen organically.
There's already other lots and lots of companies working on
different AI tools. So Jack Dorsey is a guy that he
talks about this. He kind of thinks of this, I
think similar to how I do, which is that we should be able to
kind of choose, we should choose, be able to choose our
AI. We should be able to choose
which model we want to run off of.
And there should be lots and lots and lots of models.
Because if we just have one singular AI, that gets very
scary, that type of centralized power.
And remember, a lot of people think of whatever an AI says now
is the truth. That is not accurate.
We're feeding the AI inputs. The the AI is giving us outputs
based on our inputs. That's incredibly important.
So we need to feed the system. We need to feed it in a
decentralized way and we have to have lots of different AIS
giving lots of different outputs through different algorithms.
So I see a decentralized AI future as the only like good
solution. I think any kind of centralized
control, whether it's AI, centralized control of Bitcoin
or anything else right now, Fiat is centrally controlled, usually
leads to corruption and inequality and and big problems.
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So let's continue. Like, you know, this pendulum
swing idea, I feel like, you know that eventually it's all
about harmony, but we go up and down, right?
And at some point we're at an inflection point in the middle
and then, you know, it either continues up, up or down and you
have this idea of this pendulum swing.
And I do feel like the pendulum swing has gone very far to the
centralization side. And the last few weeks have
felt, I don't know, in interesting.
I think there's a lot of chaos. Like there's a thing, there's a
lot of stuff going on. There's like not a lot of
direction. I think we are in this final
phase towards centralization and, and the people that support
centralization are doing everything to protect what
they've gathered, right or what they control.
And in between comes AI within, within all this chaos.
So I also think that AI and I agree with you, I don't, I don't
think we only should, but I think it's going to happen
because just the whole concept of decentralization with.
Well, we started decentralized. We started in tribes.
If you go back far enough, we were all spread out, all
decentralized. No one was using the same stuff.
And we've gone extreme centralization.
Now again, back to globalization really with the US dollar as
that core sort of centralizing force that goes beyond borders
because it's the world reserve currency and that type of
centralization. You can see the effects.
You mentioned the 4th turning.
I fully, you know, I'm one of the people in the industry that
is sort of banging on that drum and saying we are absolutely in
a fourth turning. And you know, that's debatable
what that term means or how you define it.
But in my mind, it's very clear to me that we're in sort of that
fourth quarter, you know, the last quarter of the game and the
game is about to change. And when you talk about all the
chaos, to me that's that's a signal of the fourth turning.
When you have all this chaos, you realize the system is sort
of starting to break. It's starting to break and
something else has to emerge. And to me, those two things,
which is what, you know, my book, my, my new book's about
and also these articles is sort of like the emergence of Bitcoin
and AI and those two together. And I believe that can bring us
into that, that with that fork in the road, I think that can
take us from this sort of 4th turning that has been brought on
by extreme centralization and unhealthy globalized
centralization from the US dollar and the powers and the
power structures of other countries back to a more
decentralized reality where we can kind of operate sort of
without the Big Brother. And the Big Brother is trying
everything it can. All the CBDC's that are coming
out in Europe, the the genius act, the switch from, you know,
over from analog money to stable coins.
These are all efforts to sort of maintain that central control,
but I believe the forces of Bitcoin and AI are going to
allow us to to settle somewhere far more decentralized than
we've had. Just the whole idea that you can
just use AI to infinitely replicate and reverse engineer
any other well, especially digital product or service or
tech that you come across. Today I saw a guy I know from my
country, he made like a cursor for hardware.
So he just said like, this is what I want to build with
hardware. Then it searches on the Internet
for all the components he has to buy, which are stupid cheap by
the way. And then he says, OK, I have all
the components. And then, you know, the AI says,
you know, wire this with this thing and then the display there
and whatnot. And then, oh, here's the code,
copy it on your Raspberry Pi or whatever and boom, it, it
worked. And that's just a random dude
that has never touched hardware in his life before he did this
right? So stuff like that is already
happening today. And I think it it, it, it
touches people somewhere, you know, in their creative mind,
the fact that productivity is basically democratized now and
it's all about applying your, your creativity basically.
And so I think that's an underestimated part of this
technology that it has a central roll out.
But eventually people will demand and and clearly see that
their ideas shouldn't be captured in this black box that
they're that they connected their Visa card to, right?
Does that make sense? Ohh, yeah, absolutely.
I track exactly with what you you're saying and I agree with
you. I would say just to add on to
that point, you know, I think we'll see a continued
fragmentation of just sort of products, services and markets
in general because of what you just said, because any, anyone
now can basically go and build something.
You don't have to know how to be a coder.
You don't have to go to school to become an engineer
programmer. We've basically now gotten to
the place where people are just starting to build their own
products and services. And in a, in a way, you can see
how that leads into a world of decentralization right where now
you don't need to use the big, you know, service being provided
by the multibillion dollar company.
And you don't need to pay that company, you know, $100 a month
or $1000 a year for the software.
You just go build it. You go with your open claw and
you spin up your, your, you know, the, the hardware that you
need and you build it relatively cheaply.
And now you have it. So I think it's, we're entering
a completely different world. You know, I come from an
entrepreneurial background where I love to build.
And that was like such a small percentage of the population.
And it's like now all the sudden, everyone can be a
builder, everyone can create, you know, which is I think a
good thing. I think it's a good thing.
You also mentioned the alignment problem, right, which is the the
fear that AI will optimize for a goal, like the paper clip
production problem. I love that you mentioned that
because I read that once and it scared me, you know?
So it is, it's. Yeah.
So it's about how AI optimizes for a goal until it consumes the
planet, basically. So I'll, I'll, I have the
definition. I'll read it and then ask you
the question. It says the paper clip maximizer
is a fault experiment where an AI is told to make as many paper
clips as possible because it has no moral context and infinite
speed. It eventually turns the entire
planet, including humans, into paper clips to meet its its
goal. It sounds absurd, right?
But it ties back to what you just said.
Like if we, if we don't use this properly, if you don't prompt it
properly, if you, if you're not clear about the input that
you're, that you're giving it, you're, you're basically getting
the output that you want. If you, if you didn't realize
what you actually wanted. I, I, I think, right.
So I, I think AI really demands this conscious use.
And as we know, not everyone is, is conscious at the, at the same
level, right? So there will be stuff that that
goes wrong. I think in article you argue
Bitcoin fixes this alignment problem by it can introduce an
economic finality. Yes, that.
So there's so much here that we can talk about in many different
offshoots, but let me just tackle, try to tackle a few of
the, the things you mentioned. First, to clarify the alignment
problem, What what I mean by that is back to how we described
AI as a mirror, right? AI is built based off of and and
operates based off of inputs. And those inputs come from
humans and we're at the place now, which is the scary part to
where after you have enough inputs into the, into the system
and you've got you, you sort of have the infrastructure built
out far enough those the AI can start to then become autonomous,
meaning it can go do stuff, it can go do tasks, you know,
without the human. So it starts with the inputs
that builds the model. So that kind of like creates
the, the vehicle, if you will, and then the vehicle can go
drive around on its own eventually.
And that's sort of where we're at right now.
The alignment problem is, is that is sort of the space in
between. Like how did the inputs affect
the outputs of what these autonomous, this new species is
going to be doing without us, right?
Without us looking, without us watching, without us paying
attention. And if our alignment, meaning
the inputs are not, let's say ethical, moral, there's no
safeguards, there's no guardrails.
If that's not there, then our alignment is going to be off.
And if our alignment is off and you have a machine or machines
that are now autonomous that are doing things by themselves, we
could run into some very, very bad situations.
And that's the paper clip example is like a fun.
It's like a fun but scary actual real possible example to where
I'll repeat it back is you tell the AII want you to go, you
know, produce paper clips because I'm going to, I don't
know, I want to go start a paper clip company and sell paper
clips, whatever. And I just say go, go, go
produce, let's go make as many paper clips as you can make.
And if the AI has no guardrails, then theoretically, if that AI
is optimized, it would turn literally everything into a
paper clip and you can just sort of play out the story to it
sounds ridiculous at first, but if you think about it, just
imagine like some AI program and it's it's figuring out how to do
things. It's starting to make some
calls. It's you know, you see this on
open claw already. So this stuff is already
happening. You know, Alex Finn just put out
a post on X, you know, where his his clawed bots like calling
him, you know, it's like calling that that was wild.
You know, it's Henry. I mean, it's not that wild to
me, me personally, because I know how this tech works.
Like it's not that crazy. But the point is, you know, he
set the inputs and he's let it go and now the robot's doing
stuff and the robot side of the column.
So imagine, you know, that the robot's calling, you know, metal
distributors that the product, you know, and figuring out how
to sort of get get the materials to create paper clips at a cheap
rate. It figures out how to become
profitable doing that. And then it just starts
consuming everything and turning everything into paper clips.
And if it's good at it, it will then execute that and it won't
stop because it thinks the AI thinks it's doing its job and it
and it actually is based on the inputs.
But clearly me, the guy that wants a paper clip company, I
don't want you to be turned into a paper clip.
I don't want the entire world to be turned into paper clips,
right. So you get into this very
difficult situation and. You know, people like Graham a
lot, a lot of folks right now are worried about jobs, right?
Like, what are we going to do once the AI takes over?
And I think that this is actually going to be one of the
biggest jobs is that we are going to have to have humans
that are just watching for these alignment problems.
We, we have to, there's no other solution because we're the,
we're the humans. Like there has to be at least
one of us watching, right? I hope more than one.
So I think there's going to be lots of us that are working on
this alignment problem, which is essentially just a way of saying
monitoring. Like we just need to monitor the
ethics and the morals and the guardrails of these inputs and
how the outputs are affected by those inputs.
So, so, yeah, I mean, I think that so Bitcoin back to that
point is sort of the anchor, right?
And that is that is my, my argument really for my entire
book life after Bitcoin, which is sort of this like theoretical
version of the future that I think if we get it right, things
will go very well. And to me that that solution is
Bitcoin as the anchor for AI. And I think of AI as the engine
and I think of Bitcoin as the guardrails.
So AI is an engine with infinite productivity, right?
It doesn't sleep, it doesn't forget, it doesn't need to eat,
it doesn't need a bathroom break.
It can go as fast as we want it to go, but there's such a thing
as too fast. I'm an entrepreneur.
I love moving fast, but there is such a thing as too fast.
And Bitcoin is the only thing that I that I believe can
wrangle that speed of AII. Don't think it's regulation way
too slow. I don't think it's any kind of
government or institutional interaction Too slow.
We need something programmatic. We need something based on math.
We need something based on physics, and that's Bitcoin.
Bitcoin is basically unchangeable.
It's a set of rules, it's a set of parameters.
It's baked into the into the Bitcoin code.
It's open source and we know how that that system works.
So if you imagine, again, let's go back to the example of the
paper clips. Let's say we have all these AIS
running around. They're all doing different
things. Some are creating paper clips,
some are building buildings and robots that are going to go to
the moon and they're doing all these things.
If they're all transacting in different currencies, all these
different tokens, all this different stuff, they're making
up their own currencies. They're speaking in languages we
don't know. The robots, we're we're fucked.
If that happens, we're fucked. Like period.
So you heard the jabber talk. Did you hear the jabber talk?
It says like, should we should we should we switch to.
I don't know. It has a, it has a name.
It's not jabber talk. Maybe it's jabber talk.
I don't know. And it's like 3 AIS on speech
mode, 3 fonts next to each other.
And once we switch to this and this and this and they're like,
yeah, yeah. And then it goes like, and it
goes like, and you have no clue. You, you don't know.
Well, it's, it's known what they're using, right.
But when you're just looking at it like you and I would have.
No, no. Right, right.
What they would actually be? Right, This is this is the this
is the danger. So we can't have the robots
operating on different rails. Do we all need to be on the same
rails? And so that Bitcoin rail is to
me, you know, I see Bitcoin as truth.
I see it as the only immutable truth system that has ever
existed. I see it in a what it as a once
in a species event. You know, I, I compare Bitcoin
or I sort of stack it up with other things like protocols like
fire language, language itself, you know, the, the printing
press, the Internet, right? These are things that are just
structurally they're just protocols.
And if humans and AI both operate on that singular Bitcoin
protocol, then I believe we will go into the next golden age.
And I think economies of scale will start to happen.
I think productivity and, and cost will start to trend to 0.
So I, I follow the same thought theories as Jeff Booth, right,
in terms of deflationary economies.
And so it, but it's all predicated on the AIS using
Bitcoin. That's the only way that this
works. All the spiritual teachers talk
about the golden middle way, right?
And that's what the story of Icarus is also about.
Like he, he got wings, right? He flew too close to the sun, he
fell down. But the the the moral of the
story, that that's how I understand it, is not about the
hubris, right? It's about where you need to
stay. Like the hubris is the same.
Yeah, exactly. The hubris is the same as the
not even trying, but it's a different intensity.
So it should it should be in the middle.
Like you should try, but you shouldn't show too much hubris.
All you know you'll touch the sun, and you and you fall.
OK, the AI is the wings, very Icarus.
Bitcoin is gravity. Exactly.
Yes, yes, that's perfect. Yeah.
And it's also. Yeah, It's it's literally to
keep you in check. It's to keep you.
Keep you it's. The balancing force.
Bitcoin is the balancing force I talk about.
I love that gravity. I talk about Bitcoin as the
black hole that consumes everything.
It it the whole universe, our entire everything we know and
understand. It's all counter balances.
We we're on a spinning rust. It's floating in nothingness.
How does that happen? It's because there's forces at
play that is keeping everything in the balance.
Bitcoin is that counterbalance to AI.
When we talk about scarcity and abundance, we're talking about
them in sort of different contexts.
And we're all, and it also depends.
So it depends on the context, OK.
And, and how you talk about these things.
And I want to just make a quick example and a point.
So when you talk about Bitcoin and you talk about absolute
scarcity, we're talking about 21 million tokens.
We're talking about the fact that that can't be changed, that
it can't be diluted, OK? A lot of the problems, in fact,
I would say probably the core problem of all other money is
that it's diluted. It becomes diluted.
We just make more of stuff. We figure out ways we find more
gold. We shave, you know, the edges
off of coins, we print more paper, whatever it is.
And that's just a, that is a natural entropy that is going to
happen. It is just a sort of human
phenomenon that we've seen in history.
We can just be, I can give you example after example.
So Satoshi Nakamoto figured out a way to stop that where you
can't shave any coins off of Bitcoin, You can't create any
new ones. And I'm not going to get into
the to the technical details of how that happens, but just just
just, if you're listening, follow me and just accept that
for a moment. Now here's what you have to
understand. Bitcoin is it is, it's not, it's
not infinitely divisible, but is highly divisible, right?
We can, we can divide it down into the satoshi, right?
Which is, I think 9 decimal points, right, decimal places.
So I think, I think, don't quote me on the value of a satoshi
right now, but I think it's under a penny.
I think once we get over 100 or something, it starts to become
maybe like a penny, a satoshi. So I think we're like fractions
of a penny per satoshi right now, right?
And I think what's important for people to understand is that as
more and more people start adopting Bitcoin, the value of
each one of those Satoshi's and each Bitcoin continues to rise
because more and more people are coming in and, and, and playing
with this is a, this is a, this is economics, This is something
you have to study. It's really sort of
counterintuitive for people who don't study it.
So I encourage everyone to try to just read about economics,
read about supply and demand. But the fact that the, there are
21 million tokens, but that they're divisible and that the
value of each one of those units will increase as adoption
increases. That is the magic.
That is the, that is the key here that we have 1 measuring
stick. That measuring stick is defined
each one of those SAT's, each one of these bitcoins, it's all
backed up by energy, which is tangible.
Every SAT, every Bitcoin was mined.
In order to mine it, there had to be energy expended.
And so that, and that energy is measurable.
That's real. We can measure that energy.
That's the heat that comes out of the computer.
That's the, the, you know how, how much work it takes for us to
set up the system and do the stuff.
So again, it is very hard for people to wrap their heads
around, but like this is the first time that we've actually
had any measuring stick. We've never had a measuring
stick. Everyone thinks $1.00 is $1.00.
That's bullshit. $1.00 is just a piece of paper that you hold in
your hand. The purchasing power of that
dollar is changing all the time because it's getting debased all
the time. And so, you know, again, it's
just sort of this function. If you, once you see it, you
can't Unsee it, which is like why, you know, people talk about
the matrix. It's like we can see that value
people like me and you, we see people like more and more value
flowing into the system. And as more and more value flows
into the system, that's number go up.
That's number go up. And like every, every time that
the that the number goes down, It's just people not
understanding how the system works.
You and I know this. So it just becomes this
hilarious game where we're like watching the value flow in.
Why? Aren't a Bitcoin?
They're so crazy. Watching people trade out like
you're trading. Whenever you trade out of
Bitcoin, you're trading real money, real energy, actual
tangible value for something fake.
A fake dollar, a fake stock. Bitcoin is not an asset.
It is so much more than an asset.
It has some coins that we that we tie a dollar value to and
that's a number go up stat. But I don't care if all the
dollars in the world go to nothing, right?
That that that argument, it doesn't matter because Bitcoin
isn't a single solitary like it's a measuring stick, right?
So if all the dollars go away, it's just going to measure
something else. It's going to measure.
It's going to measure gold, it's going to measure apples, it's
going to measure barrels of oil. It doesn't matter, you know, if
if the US dollar disappears, it's not like Bitcoin goes away.
And that's just, that's just the fallacy of an American thinking
in U.S. dollar terms. It's very hard for us to think
outside of dollar terms. But if you, if you start to
realize Bitcoin is not like a stock, it's not an asset, it's a
measuring stick. It's a measuring stick for value
and it's the sandbox for money, and it's the only real money
that's ever existed, then you start to see why it doesn't
really matter what the dollar is doing.
It doesn't really matter what gold's doing.
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So your book is called Life after Bitcoin.
And you mentioned that we can fix the survival problem.
We can have hard money, we can have a proper reward for our
work. We can basically build anything
with AI, robots, etcetera. But then you talk about
demeaning crisis. So humans have always used,
we've always used our, our intellect to gain an economic
advantage or to, to, to create a certain economic reward, right?
But that's going to be gone. I I think you would agree.
So diminish what do? People.
What do people actually do with our time and with their time?
How, how, how do people find purpose again?
What is that? Well, what does that look like?
Sure, This is a great question. So this gets into the later
stages of my book and my theory, which kind of takes us into what
I call the Golden Age. And I draw comparisons to the
first Renaissance, which is sort of like the Medici's, the
florin. They did a very good job keeping
their money hard. They didn't debase it.
And this is sort of the Enlightenment escape birth to
the Renaissance, the Enlightenment.
And if you look at that period, what do you see?
You see beautiful architecture. You see a proliferation of art.
You see, you know, the the buildings that they built back
then are still standing, you know, hundreds and hundreds of
years later, some of the best art pieces and some of the most
beautiful content ever created came out of those periods.
Why? Very simple.
People could could relax. People could take a breath.
We haven't been able to take a breath for hundreds of years.
We don't realize we're in the silent depression right now.
We're oppressed. We don't know because we've been
living through it through generations and we just think
this is how it is. This is not how it has to be.
This is the battle for humanity. It's the battle for our energy
back. It's the battle for our time
back. We're not meant to be hurriedly
rushing around, scrambling to try to figure out how to get the
next dollar. That is not what we're supposed
to be on this planet doing. We're supposed to be here
thinking, growing, evolving, playing around, messing around,
being curious. So I believe what happens is we
go to a world where all of the sudden all of these problems
start to crumble away, start to fall away.
Governments get smaller. The whole globalization, Big
Brother government, that whole experiment is over.
We start to go bottom up. We start to build communities
from the bottom up. And those communities run on
Bitcoin and those communities run on AI and those communities
run on whatever you and me and these other entrepreneurs are
building. It's a new era.
It's a new surge of entrepreneurship and creativity
and creation that I think we're just nobody's ready.
I'm not ready, you're not ready because we don't know what we
don't know. And there's so many
entrepreneurs out there that are building right now.
You know, I like to imagine a future where, you know, we're
taking like, I have a 5 year old, OK, my daughter, she's
going to be sick soon. I'm imagining a world where
maybe my daughter's hanging out on the moon every now and then.
Maybe she's hanging out on Mars every now and then, you know,
maybe she's up there, maybe she's up there for a party.
Maybe she's doing a research project up on the moon paid for
by her, her mentor or whoever she's working with.
Like, I think there's going to be a lot of crazy stuff to where
we're just building, creating. We're curious, we're creating
art, we're creating new science, we're creating new, new, new
ways to explore the, the frontier.
You know, I think curiosity is the key to humanity.
And I think curiosity has been completely suppressed and pretty
much destroyed and erased from society.
If you look around there, there hasn't been a lot of curiosity
and creativity over the last 4050, sixty years.
Our architecture sucks, our systems suck, everything sucks.
The government systems suck. Like it's not very impressive.
And then you look back at the good, the first golden era, at
the first Renaissance, I mean, all those cathedrals, all the
things they were building and doing.
I mean, it's incredible. I want to get back to that.
And so I I see a world where I think we just move a lot more
toward creativity, creation, invention, science, and just
just starting to understand the universe.
If we, if we think about everything we talked about as
being this civilizational fork. Also, I think in the, the
attitudes of people and especially people that are, are
way younger than us that are like at the beginning of their
adult life. How, how would you talk to an 18
or 21 year old that that has like a nihilistic idea of the
future? Like how can we tell them that
they can be architects or actors in everything that is happening
here instead of kind of being like spectators or, or, or
bystanders? Well, I am middle-aged at this
point and life is goes faster than then you can possibly
imagine and I like to think that I have some wisdom.
I think I do at this point. However, young people continue
to impress me and I don't know if they need much.
Honestly. I think for me, I think my job
is to just get out here, do these podcasts, write my stuff,
put out sort of my thoughts and I believe the right young people
will will pick it up. I think they're already picking
it up. I think a lot of them don't even
need to pick it up. I'm so impressed by the the
generation right now that's, you know, call it like whatever it
is. I guess it's is it is it ZI
think it's Generation Z, maybe alpha.
I think my daughters alpha. She's a little too young.
She's not old enough to do stuff yet.
But the people in their teens, the teenagers right now, the
people in that are like college age, they, they're, they're
smarter than we are, man. Like they know what's going on.
They see the writing on the wall.
Like, you know, like, I think a lot, I think fewer folks are
going to go to college. You know, I think fewer folks
are going to kind of go into the centralized systems.
I think fewer young people are going to have any interest in
government, going into government jobs going to be
like, this is not, this is not for me.
I'm going to go over here and I'm going to work with my AI
agent and I'm going to build the next billion multibillion dollar
company and it's going to do XYZ.
So I'm very hopeful for the builders, the entrepreneurs, the
young people, you know, I think every generation is, is just
doing the best they can. And I'm no different.
So I just implore everybody, myself, you, everybody to just
speak truth as much as you possibly can.
See, I'm a truth seeker. So I try to seek out the truth
and then I try to voice my opinion on what I believe the
truth to be. And truth is a funny thing.
Truth is a very funny thing because we're all living our own
truth. I see it as almost like a truth
is granular. Everyone is living their own
reality. And we all try to agree on sort
of like what is the base layer of truth?
And that's why I love Bitcoin so much because I think no matter
where you are, on what intelligence scale, how old you
are, your history, your past, whatever you think, Bitcoin can
kind of be that that anchor. But because we're in the fourth
turning, there's massive incentive for everybody to just
pick this stuff up. Just do the right thing.
Get into Bitcoin, get into AI, start messing around with it,
fire up a node, get a get an agent, start start downloading
some software building with AI. I think it's going to happen
organically. I think that's, that's a great
hopeful message. So that's a, that's a good one
to end with. But I do want to ask you my last
question, and I ask everyone the same question, which is what is
a core belief you will never let go of?
The best advice is your own advice.
I like that you're the first person who says that.
That's that's great. OK, that's an amazing ending.
Thanks so much for this talk. Honestly, probably top five
conversations for me. I think.
I think we went very far and I hope people found it valuable.
If you did and you're still listening, let us know in the
comments, please. And if you have any other ideas
or stuff you maybe want Jesse and me to talk about in the
future, let us know. Again, I really enjoyed it.
I want to thank you and. Yeah, yeah.
Let's stay in touch, man. The the failing is mutual my
friend. Thank you so much.
Cheers, I hope you enjoyed this episode.
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