1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:03,320 In the mining sense specifically, energy has decided 2 00:00:03,320 --> 00:00:06,560 the fate of nations and civilizations throughout 3 00:00:06,560 --> 00:00:09,800 history, and this is gunpowder for the energy world. 4 00:00:09,800 --> 00:00:13,920 This is a puzzle piece and a technology and a step change 5 00:00:13,920 --> 00:00:18,560 innovation that I think completely changes the game in 6 00:00:18,720 --> 00:00:21,880 what is the underpinning resource of our civilization. 7 00:00:25,440 --> 00:00:27,320 Everyone quick thing before we start. 8 00:00:27,440 --> 00:00:30,800 Over 50,000 of you keep coming back to watch and listen to this 9 00:00:30,800 --> 00:00:34,960 podcast, but over 65% of you still haven't subscribed yet. 10 00:00:35,200 --> 00:00:38,480 So here's my simple ask. If you find value in my Bitcoin 11 00:00:38,480 --> 00:00:41,440 content and you enjoy what I'm doing, please take a second to 12 00:00:41,440 --> 00:00:44,800 hit subscribe on YouTube or follow me on your go to 13 00:00:44,800 --> 00:00:47,480 podcasting app. It's a small action that really 14 00:00:47,480 --> 00:00:50,560 helps push my content through the algorithm and this way we 15 00:00:50,560 --> 00:00:53,440 can make sure that more people learn about Bitcoin. 16 00:00:53,640 --> 00:00:55,080 Thanks for being part of this journey. 17 00:00:55,400 --> 00:00:59,600 Let's dive into this episode. All right, Bo Turner, welcome to 18 00:00:59,600 --> 00:01:01,840 Bitcoin for Millennials. Thanks for having me, yeah. 19 00:01:01,840 --> 00:01:04,360 Man, I think it's really fun that you're on. 20 00:01:04,360 --> 00:01:07,920 I haven't really had lots of conversations about mining, so 21 00:01:07,920 --> 00:01:11,440 I'm excited to talk about that. And yeah, I was thinking maybe 22 00:01:11,440 --> 00:01:15,760 to start, I just want to ask you what is the biggest opportunity 23 00:01:15,760 --> 00:01:19,160 you see with regards to Bitcoin? Mining, I think the biggest 24 00:01:19,160 --> 00:01:24,080 opportunity in the very long time frame is to remake the way 25 00:01:24,080 --> 00:01:27,880 that we interact with energy and create an abundant energy future 26 00:01:28,000 --> 00:01:30,840 that makes all of civilization more prosperous. 27 00:01:30,840 --> 00:01:34,160 And since we're recording this in December of 24, the very 28 00:01:34,160 --> 00:01:37,600 immediate opportunity is you can buy some miners and depreciate 29 00:01:37,600 --> 00:01:40,560 them and write them off on your taxes and maybe save some money 30 00:01:40,560 --> 00:01:42,840 from going to the government. So 2 answers. 31 00:01:46,200 --> 00:01:48,200 I think the first one intrigues me. 32 00:01:48,200 --> 00:01:52,040 I mean, I don't want to go the whole software path immediately, 33 00:01:52,040 --> 00:01:54,440 but what what do you mean by what you said? 34 00:01:54,440 --> 00:01:56,960 Like how are we reshaping that with Bitcoin mining? 35 00:01:57,000 --> 00:02:01,680 So Bitcoin mining to me is, is a perfect system of energy 36 00:02:01,680 --> 00:02:07,360 incentives that doesn't pirate or pillage energy, but wants to 37 00:02:07,360 --> 00:02:10,919 use it all the time. And just by the nature of being 38 00:02:10,919 --> 00:02:14,840 constantly hungry for it, but also able to flexibly not use 39 00:02:14,840 --> 00:02:17,920 it. It's this perfect puzzle piece 40 00:02:17,920 --> 00:02:22,400 that completes our step change and how we interact with energy. 41 00:02:22,480 --> 00:02:26,320 And one of the biggest issues that we've seen in in the energy 42 00:02:26,320 --> 00:02:30,440 landscape is not that we don't have enough energy, it's that we 43 00:02:30,440 --> 00:02:33,400 don't have the most efficient use of the energy that we have 44 00:02:33,400 --> 00:02:36,360 available. A stat that I like to to talk 45 00:02:36,360 --> 00:02:40,680 about is that California alone curtails more energy in a year 46 00:02:40,680 --> 00:02:43,720 than the bottom 30 energy poor countries in the world. 47 00:02:43,800 --> 00:02:46,880 So it's not that we don't have enough energy in the world, it's 48 00:02:46,880 --> 00:02:48,520 that we aren't using it effectively. 49 00:02:48,520 --> 00:02:53,160 And to me, mining is the coolest tool that we have to make sure 50 00:02:53,160 --> 00:02:54,600 that we use energy more effectively. 51 00:02:55,880 --> 00:02:57,200 Yeah. Yeah, I love that. 52 00:02:57,200 --> 00:03:00,280 That's a great step I think to to dial in on that because I did 53 00:03:00,280 --> 00:03:03,920 have different conversation or conversations around energy 54 00:03:03,920 --> 00:03:05,880 where we kind of touched upon mining. 55 00:03:05,880 --> 00:03:09,640 But since you're a real mining expert, I think we can go a bit 56 00:03:09,640 --> 00:03:12,360 deeper. I, I remember, I think it was 57 00:03:12,360 --> 00:03:18,240 Dasby who told me that like the efficiency of most renewable 58 00:03:18,240 --> 00:03:22,320 energy sources or like the ROI of just the hardware is like 59 00:03:22,320 --> 00:03:25,040 30%. But of course, there's 100% 60 00:03:25,040 --> 00:03:28,640 investment. So basically we are paying three 61 00:03:28,640 --> 00:03:33,320 times as much for the energy as what it's supposed to be, right? 62 00:03:33,320 --> 00:03:37,160 And I mean, I've also talked with Daniel Batten and I said, 63 00:03:37,160 --> 00:03:40,400 you know, why doesn't anyone understand that if you, let's 64 00:03:40,400 --> 00:03:44,160 say, spend a million, well, it's probably more, it's more, but a 65 00:03:44,160 --> 00:03:46,280 million for the sake of the calculation, right? 66 00:03:46,360 --> 00:03:49,520 On a windmill, you spend that, that's gone. 67 00:03:49,520 --> 00:03:51,360 You have to recoup that investment, right? 68 00:03:51,360 --> 00:03:55,040 So you want the highest ROI possible, or at least you want 69 00:03:55,520 --> 00:03:58,560 the thing to turn whenever the wind is blowing, right? 70 00:03:58,560 --> 00:04:02,960 But I think a lot of people know the images of windmills standing 71 00:04:02,960 --> 00:04:04,880 still even when the wind is blowing, right? 72 00:04:04,880 --> 00:04:08,160 And that's mainly because the energy that's created cannot be 73 00:04:08,160 --> 00:04:12,600 sent anywhere like the either it cannot be added to the net or 74 00:04:12,680 --> 00:04:16,720 there's not, there's no demand. That basically makes us pay more 75 00:04:16,720 --> 00:04:22,079 for the energy that they eventually do create and that we 76 00:04:22,079 --> 00:04:25,000 also actually use, right? But I mean, it makes so much 77 00:04:25,000 --> 00:04:28,560 sense to add Bitcoin miners to a windmill park just to have them 78 00:04:28,560 --> 00:04:31,800 turn always when the wind turns. I mean, and he looked at me and 79 00:04:31,800 --> 00:04:34,440 he was like, yeah, that's right. And I was like, what? 80 00:04:34,840 --> 00:04:37,080 You know why? Why isn't this happening? 81 00:04:37,080 --> 00:04:39,320 Is that something that you can elaborate on or like what? 82 00:04:39,320 --> 00:04:41,120 What is your view or what are your? 83 00:04:41,160 --> 00:04:43,920 Thoughts on Yeah, one of my one of my favorite, Well, maybe it's 84 00:04:43,920 --> 00:04:47,440 not my favorite moment, but one of the most like peak clown 85 00:04:47,440 --> 00:04:50,200 world moments that I ever had when I was doing research on 86 00:04:50,200 --> 00:04:52,680 mining was on wind farms specifically. 87 00:04:52,680 --> 00:04:55,400 They have these things called load banks, and they're 88 00:04:55,400 --> 00:04:58,960 essentially just this expensive piece of equipment that you'll 89 00:04:58,960 --> 00:05:02,920 put next to a windmill that is this like battery that goes to 90 00:05:02,920 --> 00:05:06,920 nowhere because you can't necessarily stop the turbine. 91 00:05:06,920 --> 00:05:08,600 You can't necessarily sell the energy. 92 00:05:08,600 --> 00:05:10,960 So you have to just have this like dump thing. 93 00:05:11,120 --> 00:05:12,640 It's like a buffer thing and it's. 94 00:05:12,640 --> 00:05:16,240 Literally waste by design like you're, you're paying money to 95 00:05:16,240 --> 00:05:19,880 be able to dump energy uselessly into something so you can 96 00:05:20,040 --> 00:05:23,120 replace that with, you know, a fleet of Bitcoin miners and 97 00:05:23,120 --> 00:05:25,960 you've actually got a use for that energy now. 98 00:05:25,960 --> 00:05:31,160 But you mentioned it and it's, it's just a really funny system 99 00:05:31,160 --> 00:05:35,560 of incentives where we, let's say that we are renewable energy 100 00:05:35,560 --> 00:05:37,680 developers. We're incentivized to go out and 101 00:05:37,680 --> 00:05:40,760 develop as much as we can and constantly sell it into the 102 00:05:40,760 --> 00:05:43,480 grid, even if we're selling it at negative pricing. 103 00:05:43,840 --> 00:05:47,360 Because so much of the income that we get comes from subsidies 104 00:05:47,360 --> 00:05:50,880 that require us to sell that energy, even if we're selling it 105 00:05:50,960 --> 00:05:55,960 again at negative pricing. And the downside of that is that 106 00:05:56,760 --> 00:05:59,600 you're selling a commodity and having it subsidized by the 107 00:05:59,600 --> 00:06:04,280 taxpayer that nobody needs at any given time and just creates 108 00:06:04,280 --> 00:06:07,600 all this waste that that people have to bear, but that enriches 109 00:06:07,600 --> 00:06:09,160 people that develop energy project. 110 00:06:09,520 --> 00:06:12,640 I'm a big fan of integrating Bitcoin mining with with these 111 00:06:12,640 --> 00:06:16,400 projects because now you have a real natural consumer that can 112 00:06:16,400 --> 00:06:19,680 pay you market rate for this energy, help you break even, and 113 00:06:19,680 --> 00:06:23,080 then the taxpayer doesn't have to bear the brunt of everybody 114 00:06:23,080 --> 00:06:25,240 who wants to go and develop new energy sources. 115 00:06:26,760 --> 00:06:30,040 Yeah, it feels like you can add like two or three extra 116 00:06:30,040 --> 00:06:34,560 dimensions to prop up the ROI, which I think can go to over 117 00:06:34,560 --> 00:06:37,400 100%. You know, if you, if you also 118 00:06:37,400 --> 00:06:41,080 keep some Bitcoin as like the proprietary owner of of the wind 119 00:06:41,080 --> 00:06:43,080 farm, right? If you keep a cut of that like 120 00:06:43,080 --> 00:06:46,280 that, it just makes so much sense that when you buy 121 00:06:46,280 --> 00:06:49,680 equipment, you just want to use it whenever you would be able to 122 00:06:49,680 --> 00:06:52,400 use it and therefore, you know, make make some revenue. 123 00:06:52,400 --> 00:06:55,880 I just googled because I saw last week something about the UK 124 00:06:55,880 --> 00:06:58,480 paying to waste power and I found it. 125 00:06:58,480 --> 00:07:01,800 This is a Bloomberg headline which it's from December 2. 126 00:07:02,320 --> 00:07:06,760 UK is paying £1 billion to waste a record amount of wind power. 127 00:07:07,160 --> 00:07:10,480 Britain faces mounting costs from overwhelmed electricity 128 00:07:10,480 --> 00:07:14,120 grid constraints on the network could jeopardize decarbonization 129 00:07:14,120 --> 00:07:14,640 plans. Right. 130 00:07:14,640 --> 00:07:16,440 So I think there's, there's multiple things. 131 00:07:16,440 --> 00:07:20,440 There is just a general problem of the fact that you cannot 132 00:07:20,440 --> 00:07:23,240 store energy. I once heard a stat, I'm not 133 00:07:23,240 --> 00:07:25,840 sure if it's fully correct, but I heard it later again, like if 134 00:07:25,840 --> 00:07:28,000 you put all the batteries in Europe together, you can store 135 00:07:28,000 --> 00:07:30,680 like all the energy for 10 seconds or something like that. 136 00:07:30,680 --> 00:07:35,160 Like there's no way to to store energy over over time. 137 00:07:35,160 --> 00:07:36,800 So you have to use it. So that's one. 138 00:07:36,800 --> 00:07:40,440 So like not all the energy is used, plus the grids are not 139 00:07:40,440 --> 00:07:45,000 ready to even transport that energy to maybe a distance 140 00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:50,320 further away from where it's where it's sourced with, with 141 00:07:50,320 --> 00:07:53,600 wind, for example. So yeah, it just makes so much 142 00:07:53,600 --> 00:07:56,120 sense for me that to add the Bitcoin miners, like that's 143 00:07:56,120 --> 00:08:00,960 probably the lowest cost and quickest way, most mobile way to 144 00:08:01,960 --> 00:08:05,600 at least make sure that you don't pay £1 billion a month. 145 00:08:05,600 --> 00:08:07,480 It's just, it's just low hanging fruit. 146 00:08:07,560 --> 00:08:11,480 I mean, at some point we expect batteries to get better, to get 147 00:08:11,480 --> 00:08:13,840 less expensive. It's not that these technologies 148 00:08:13,840 --> 00:08:15,520 aren't helpful and that they don't exist. 149 00:08:15,520 --> 00:08:18,080 It's just that in the case of batteries specifically, you 150 00:08:18,080 --> 00:08:22,040 mentioned it, you have to put on a ton of capacity in order to be 151 00:08:22,040 --> 00:08:25,360 able to to store any kind of appreciable amount of energy 152 00:08:25,360 --> 00:08:27,120 that would keep civilization running. 153 00:08:27,120 --> 00:08:31,320 And it's super expensive. I mean, it's, it's just way cost 154 00:08:31,320 --> 00:08:34,000 prohibitive to be able to put on that much capacity in a short 155 00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:36,720 period of time. And Bitcoin miners are a natural 156 00:08:36,720 --> 00:08:40,039 user of that same energy. And you can build facilities 157 00:08:40,039 --> 00:08:44,440 for, you know, depending on your metric, two to 10% of the cost 158 00:08:44,440 --> 00:08:47,280 per MW of some of these energy storage vehicles. 159 00:08:47,840 --> 00:08:51,800 And I like to be, you know, as as academically honest as I can 160 00:08:51,800 --> 00:08:55,320 be and, and have integrity when we talk about this, because it's 161 00:08:55,320 --> 00:08:57,920 not that these solutions don't exist and that they're not good. 162 00:08:57,920 --> 00:09:01,120 It's just that this is, this is the cheapest thing that we can 163 00:09:01,120 --> 00:09:05,600 use in the meantime to kind of bootstrap our way to maybe a 164 00:09:05,600 --> 00:09:08,040 long term solution where we can store this energy. 165 00:09:08,560 --> 00:09:12,960 And Bitcoin isn't exactly a a battery in the true physical 166 00:09:12,960 --> 00:09:15,800 sense, but it is a battery in the economic sense that allows 167 00:09:15,800 --> 00:09:19,160 us to store that wealth per SE and redeploy it somewhere else. 168 00:09:20,880 --> 00:09:24,960 So what do you think or what is your biggest, what's like the 169 00:09:24,960 --> 00:09:27,960 biggest misunderstanding about Bitcoin mining that that you 170 00:09:27,960 --> 00:09:31,840 would want to address? You know, I'm really grateful 171 00:09:31,840 --> 00:09:35,160 for people like Daniel Batten that that do a way better job of 172 00:09:35,160 --> 00:09:37,000 this and a way more consistent job. 173 00:09:37,000 --> 00:09:39,920 And same with with Satoshi Action Fund and Satoshi Action 174 00:09:39,920 --> 00:09:42,840 Education. But the whole idea that Bitcoin 175 00:09:42,840 --> 00:09:46,480 mining is bad for the environment is just the most 176 00:09:46,600 --> 00:09:50,720 heinous lie that I spend most of my time debunking for people 177 00:09:50,720 --> 00:09:52,240 that aren't familiar with the industry. 178 00:09:53,000 --> 00:09:58,240 And in reality, it's, it's one of our greatest tools for saving 179 00:09:58,240 --> 00:10:01,400 the environment, cleaning up the environment, using our resources 180 00:10:01,400 --> 00:10:04,480 more effectively. I mean, if you've seen things 181 00:10:04,480 --> 00:10:07,800 like, you know, Crusoe or any of these natural gas miners that 182 00:10:07,800 --> 00:10:10,920 are taking flares and instead of letting those flare out into the 183 00:10:10,920 --> 00:10:13,560 atmosphere or vent into the atmosphere, you know, they're 184 00:10:13,560 --> 00:10:16,480 mining Bitcoin with it. Those kinds of projects, I think 185 00:10:16,480 --> 00:10:20,200 just completely invalidate everything that has been said 186 00:10:20,200 --> 00:10:23,280 about Bitcoin mining where you're literally removing waste 187 00:10:23,280 --> 00:10:26,400 from the atmosphere. We're working on projects in, in 188 00:10:26,400 --> 00:10:30,000 Oregon as well, where we partner with local landfills that are, 189 00:10:30,000 --> 00:10:31,520 are venting methane into the air. 190 00:10:32,520 --> 00:10:35,760 And those projects, while they're expensive, they're, 191 00:10:35,840 --> 00:10:41,240 they're extremely beneficial for, you know, the atmosphere 192 00:10:41,240 --> 00:10:42,880 and, and just reducing pollution. 193 00:10:43,240 --> 00:10:45,720 I'm sure if you've, if you've talked to Daniel, he would tell 194 00:10:45,720 --> 00:10:50,640 you, you know, methane is 25 to 85 times more pollutant than 195 00:10:50,640 --> 00:10:53,080 CO2. So anything that you can do to 196 00:10:53,080 --> 00:10:57,720 mitigate methane is a huge benefit to the cleanliness of 197 00:10:57,720 --> 00:10:59,720 our atmosphere. And that's one of the the 198 00:10:59,720 --> 00:11:02,160 coolest things that I think people don't understand about 199 00:11:02,160 --> 00:11:04,560 mining and don't understand about Bitcoin is that it's one 200 00:11:04,560 --> 00:11:08,680 of the first non subsidized ways that we can profitably clean up 201 00:11:08,680 --> 00:11:13,600 our environment. Bitcoin custody is evolving and 202 00:11:13,600 --> 00:11:17,080 while self custody is important, it has its own risks and 203 00:11:17,080 --> 00:11:19,600 trade-offs. 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Your funds are fully auditable 210 00:11:40,320 --> 00:11:43,440 on chain cannot be re hypothecated and can only move 211 00:11:43,440 --> 00:11:45,720 or withdrawn at your explicit direction. 212 00:11:45,880 --> 00:11:48,840 Multi institution custody removes the technical, mental 213 00:11:48,840 --> 00:11:52,160 and physical burdens of private key management, providing 214 00:11:52,160 --> 00:11:55,240 unparalleled help Peace of Mind for you and your loved ones. 215 00:11:55,400 --> 00:11:58,160 Bitcoin is money, and as the price continues to appreciate, 216 00:11:58,160 --> 00:12:01,800 On Ramp helps you seamlessly tap into financial services like 217 00:12:01,800 --> 00:12:06,320 trading, inheritance, insurance, loans, Iras, and more, all 218 00:12:06,320 --> 00:12:09,560 without compromising on security or accessibility. 219 00:12:09,640 --> 00:12:12,760 Check out on rampbitcoin.com through the link below and 220 00:12:12,760 --> 00:12:15,480 schedule a consultation with the On Ramp team to get to know them 221 00:12:15,480 --> 00:12:17,400 and learn more about their offering. 222 00:12:17,400 --> 00:12:21,640 Yeah, it's actually a way to attract for profit companies, 223 00:12:21,680 --> 00:12:25,160 right, that have to innovate in order to be competitive, right. 224 00:12:25,160 --> 00:12:28,800 As opposed to well, when you get grants or subsidies or whatever, 225 00:12:28,800 --> 00:12:31,440 I think there's a less of an incentive to actually do that. 226 00:12:31,440 --> 00:12:34,080 And I love that you mentioned methane, right, because reducing 227 00:12:34,080 --> 00:12:37,400 the methane emission I think is one of the top three UN 228 00:12:37,400 --> 00:12:40,600 sustainability goals, right? I think there's different 229 00:12:40,600 --> 00:12:45,160 approaches to doing that from making like huge fans, I think 230 00:12:45,160 --> 00:12:48,880 in Norway where they suck up air and then do something and then 231 00:12:48,880 --> 00:12:51,040 they, they, they put air out again. 232 00:12:51,040 --> 00:12:54,280 And I remember, yeah, Daniel telling me that if you do the, 233 00:12:54,760 --> 00:12:55,960 if you turn off the flaring, right? 234 00:12:55,960 --> 00:12:59,000 Because even with the flaring, there's still like a certain 235 00:12:59,000 --> 00:13:02,000 percentage of pure methane that just gets in the air, right? 236 00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:05,160 Like it's only like a 80. It's a 80% reduction of the, of 237 00:13:05,160 --> 00:13:06,200 the original, something like that. 238 00:13:06,200 --> 00:13:08,080 I'm butchering the numbers, but not that much, right. 239 00:13:08,080 --> 00:13:13,000 But just doing methane landfills and using that to mine Bitcoin 240 00:13:13,240 --> 00:13:16,040 is again, it's just such low hanging fruit. 241 00:13:16,040 --> 00:13:19,960 Like what, what do you run into? Is this an I mean, we talk about 242 00:13:19,960 --> 00:13:24,160 it like it's an easy pitch, but I can imagine it's it's not in 243 00:13:24,160 --> 00:13:26,080 real life. Like how do how do you approach 244 00:13:26,400 --> 00:13:27,880 that? Or like what it what do you come 245 00:13:27,880 --> 00:13:32,200 across? It's it's such an an educational 246 00:13:32,200 --> 00:13:36,640 barrier to overcome with people. I mean, if you if you think 247 00:13:36,640 --> 00:13:39,920 about how much most people understand about money, how much 248 00:13:39,920 --> 00:13:42,600 most people understand about energy, you know, it's very 249 00:13:42,600 --> 00:13:48,120 little Trying to show them this shiny beautiful system over here 250 00:13:48,200 --> 00:13:51,280 that helps us fix all of these problems that in many cases 251 00:13:51,280 --> 00:13:55,120 they're not even aware of is the the biggest thing. 252 00:13:55,120 --> 00:13:58,280 And it's not necessarily that people don't understand it or or 253 00:13:58,280 --> 00:14:01,920 won't understand it or actively fight you so much as it just 254 00:14:01,920 --> 00:14:04,400 takes a while to build the mental model for them to 255 00:14:04,400 --> 00:14:07,840 understand, you know, what is really going on and what is the 256 00:14:07,840 --> 00:14:10,120 solution to it. I mean, it takes, if you're 257 00:14:10,120 --> 00:14:13,120 anything like me, Brahm, you spent hundreds, if not thousands 258 00:14:13,120 --> 00:14:16,280 of hours at this point studying the network, the impacts of the 259 00:14:16,280 --> 00:14:19,920 network, the ways that it, it runs through different aspects 260 00:14:19,920 --> 00:14:23,440 of our lives. And the difference between you 261 00:14:23,680 --> 00:14:28,320 an hour in and you 1000 hours in is, is just profound. 262 00:14:28,800 --> 00:14:32,280 And many of us lose sight of what it's like to go through 263 00:14:32,280 --> 00:14:35,920 that journey the first time and be exposed to essentially have 264 00:14:35,920 --> 00:14:38,560 the mirror held up to how how things really work. 265 00:14:38,560 --> 00:14:42,440 And just just getting people to recognize that when there's no 266 00:14:42,440 --> 00:14:45,760 real incentive for them to is the biggest challenge, in my 267 00:14:45,760 --> 00:14:48,480 opinion. Yeah, it's a good point. 268 00:14:48,480 --> 00:14:52,560 I also think that because that is so hard, kind of like counter 269 00:14:52,560 --> 00:14:57,560 arguments that people have that they, I think a lot of the times 270 00:14:57,560 --> 00:15:01,040 repeat from the TV, right? So like, no, it should be used 271 00:15:01,040 --> 00:15:04,760 for another type of the like this energy should be used for 272 00:15:04,760 --> 00:15:06,560 something else, right? But as you pointed out to the 273 00:15:06,560 --> 00:15:11,320 beginning, the entire incentive, the goal of a Bitcoin miner is 274 00:15:11,320 --> 00:15:13,560 to find the cheapest energy possible, right? 275 00:15:13,560 --> 00:15:16,240 So not the regular energy. It's it's, it's, it's always at 276 00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:21,440 the end of a of a certain chain, the energy that's wasted or just 277 00:15:21,440 --> 00:15:24,840 thrown away. So that's like the main thing 278 00:15:24,840 --> 00:15:27,640 that that you hear a lot. And I think that comes from this 279 00:15:27,640 --> 00:15:30,320 kind of like in between phase where you're like, OK, I'm 280 00:15:30,320 --> 00:15:32,960 talking about the subject, but I don't know enough, but I heard 281 00:15:32,960 --> 00:15:36,440 this thing about it right. So there, there I go with my my 282 00:15:36,440 --> 00:15:39,440 kind of like counter arguments. I think that in general is the 283 00:15:39,440 --> 00:15:42,600 same for, you know, just this with with understanding Bitcoin. 284 00:15:42,600 --> 00:15:47,520 It's just, it's just such a big, big topic, you know, and I think 285 00:15:47,880 --> 00:15:51,120 one of the questions I wanted to ask is like, how can we educate 286 00:15:51,120 --> 00:15:52,560 people? And you, you alluded to it 287 00:15:52,560 --> 00:15:56,520 before, like Bitcoin mining is probably the probably has like 288 00:15:56,520 --> 00:16:00,400 the only purpose built computers that can be turned on and turned 289 00:16:00,400 --> 00:16:05,080 off in the quickest way possible to actually help the 290 00:16:05,080 --> 00:16:08,080 distribution of the energy that is created, right. 291 00:16:08,080 --> 00:16:10,760 Sometimes people say, well, no, AI is going to be a thing. 292 00:16:10,760 --> 00:16:14,200 It should, it should power AI clusters and stuff like that. 293 00:16:14,200 --> 00:16:18,000 But yeah, if I'm on ChatGPT and and and the cluster that I'm on 294 00:16:18,000 --> 00:16:21,240 turns off, then I cannot use the thing, right? 295 00:16:21,240 --> 00:16:22,960 Like I cannot use the product or the surface. 296 00:16:22,960 --> 00:16:26,400 So there's not really an alternative for any other type 297 00:16:26,400 --> 00:16:29,960 of, well, let's call it a data center, right, to just turn on 298 00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:32,840 and off in. I don't know how quick can can 299 00:16:32,840 --> 00:16:35,360 you do that with a bit. Less than 60 seconds. 300 00:16:36,120 --> 00:16:38,040 Exactly right. So there's, I don't know if 301 00:16:38,040 --> 00:16:40,880 there's anything else that could even compete with that. 302 00:16:40,880 --> 00:16:44,280 But yeah, I'm thinking about where I wanted to go with my 303 00:16:44,280 --> 00:16:46,800 question, but I see that like there's just a gap, you know, 304 00:16:46,800 --> 00:16:50,320 like you start a conversation, but where you are is is it's so 305 00:16:50,320 --> 00:16:52,160 much further. So you have to like drill down 306 00:16:52,160 --> 00:16:56,080 to what are like the closest benefits for whoever you're 307 00:16:56,160 --> 00:16:59,280 you're talking with you. Hit a talk about benefits, not 308 00:16:59,280 --> 00:17:01,880 features when you're talking about a product that's like 309 00:17:01,880 --> 00:17:05,119 marketing one O 1 is is talk about why it's why it's 310 00:17:05,160 --> 00:17:07,560 applicable to the person that you're talking to and why it 311 00:17:07,560 --> 00:17:11,200 solves a pain point. So you know this as well as I 312 00:17:11,200 --> 00:17:12,880 do. Now we're starting to get more 313 00:17:12,880 --> 00:17:15,520 and more serious about our media and education. 314 00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:19,520 And that requires you to do something or it requires me 315 00:17:19,520 --> 00:17:22,079 particularly to do something which I'm not used to doing, 316 00:17:22,079 --> 00:17:26,839 which is really lowering the kind of engineering speak down 317 00:17:26,839 --> 00:17:29,600 to a fifth grade reading level as much as I can. 318 00:17:29,880 --> 00:17:31,960 And not because, you know, you're trying to pander to 319 00:17:31,960 --> 00:17:35,080 somebody, but just because there's so much to unpack, you 320 00:17:35,080 --> 00:17:38,880 have to get people to a way that they can actually understand 321 00:17:38,880 --> 00:17:41,080 what you're saying and for it to be accessible to them. 322 00:17:41,080 --> 00:17:44,040 Many, many times I see specifically in the mining 323 00:17:44,040 --> 00:17:47,120 industry, you go to a mining conference and it's like, it's 324 00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:50,600 my people, right? It is the nerdiest of the nerds 325 00:17:50,600 --> 00:17:53,360 who understand all of the stuff and absolutely love talking 326 00:17:53,360 --> 00:17:55,160 about it and talking about the nuances. 327 00:17:55,960 --> 00:18:00,960 But most people walking around don't get joy out of that and 328 00:18:00,960 --> 00:18:03,760 their brains just turn off. I think about people like my 329 00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:06,880 wife who's who's a brilliant woman, but you know, I start 330 00:18:06,880 --> 00:18:10,080 talking about demand response and curtailment and energy 331 00:18:10,080 --> 00:18:13,480 abundance and she is just asleep faster than anything you would 332 00:18:13,480 --> 00:18:15,040 imagine. And that's most people. 333 00:18:15,040 --> 00:18:21,480 So we, we have this challenge of educating people not just about 334 00:18:21,480 --> 00:18:25,160 Bitcoin, which is already a kind of hard to understand niche for 335 00:18:25,160 --> 00:18:28,680 most people approaching it for the first time, but go one level 336 00:18:28,680 --> 00:18:33,080 deeper into the niche sphere of Bitcoin mining, which is 337 00:18:33,160 --> 00:18:36,760 everything that they already didn't understand about Bitcoin, 338 00:18:37,160 --> 00:18:40,600 you know, actualized into physical reality and interacting 339 00:18:40,600 --> 00:18:43,640 with all these other huge global systems that they don't 340 00:18:43,640 --> 00:18:45,600 understand necessarily like energy. 341 00:18:46,360 --> 00:18:50,600 So it's a journey, It's a, it's a skill for us to build, for all 342 00:18:50,600 --> 00:18:52,640 of us to build. If we're in the space and we're, 343 00:18:53,080 --> 00:18:56,760 you know, public facing and, and speaking to people as much as 344 00:18:56,760 --> 00:19:00,520 you can simplify things and, and really connect it to how it 345 00:19:00,520 --> 00:19:03,640 impacts each individual, like making your electric bill 346 00:19:03,640 --> 00:19:05,640 cheaper or cleaning up your environment. 347 00:19:05,720 --> 00:19:10,120 I think those approaches are far more effective than talking to 348 00:19:10,120 --> 00:19:13,280 people about why this is the soundest money in the world. 349 00:19:14,400 --> 00:19:17,400 Yeah, it feels like everything. You know, Bitcoin is kind of 350 00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:21,560 like the sly, roundabout way to escape from the Fiat currency, 351 00:19:21,560 --> 00:19:24,200 right? But in order to yeah, have 352 00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:27,120 something like mining permeate more like certain types of 353 00:19:27,120 --> 00:19:30,000 services like there it's the same kind of approach this lie 354 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:32,520 roundabout way, right? Like kind of like, you know, do 355 00:19:32,520 --> 00:19:35,880 you want to up the ROI of your of your, of your wind farm? 356 00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:38,800 Yeah, of course I want to do that, you know, and then later 357 00:19:38,840 --> 00:19:43,600 you talk about the mining part. But yeah, it feels like, feels 358 00:19:43,600 --> 00:19:48,120 like an interesting journey and like the, the being such a geek 359 00:19:48,120 --> 00:19:51,800 and being totally into a subject and then trying to see if you 360 00:19:51,800 --> 00:19:53,760 can, you know, find the market for it. 361 00:19:53,760 --> 00:19:56,760 I think it's a very, very fascinating challenge that 362 00:19:56,760 --> 00:19:58,240 you've that you've given yourself. 363 00:19:58,320 --> 00:20:00,080 Yeah. But before this, you were in 364 00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:02,200 real estate. I understood, you know, the full 365 00:20:02,200 --> 00:20:04,360 time real estate. How did you go to Bitcoin 366 00:20:04,360 --> 00:20:05,120 mining? Like how? 367 00:20:05,120 --> 00:20:06,880 How did you make that that switch? 368 00:20:07,680 --> 00:20:10,360 At the time I was a full time real estate investor managing 369 00:20:10,360 --> 00:20:13,200 rental properties, mortgage notes, you know, basically a 370 00:20:13,360 --> 00:20:15,600 property portfolio across the southeast. 371 00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:21,080 And the events of 2020 just forced me to re examine so many 372 00:20:21,080 --> 00:20:23,000 different things about how our world works. 373 00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:27,080 And a few well placed podcasts from our friend Michael Saylor 374 00:20:27,840 --> 00:20:29,760 came into my world at the right time. 375 00:20:29,840 --> 00:20:35,280 You know, forced me to to look at how our systems work and what 376 00:20:35,280 --> 00:20:39,640 value really is derived by and our, our modern world be built 377 00:20:39,640 --> 00:20:42,240 on a foundation that I no longer thought held true. 378 00:20:42,760 --> 00:20:47,880 So while it was the perfect vehicle of the last 50 years or 379 00:20:47,880 --> 00:20:52,400 even 500 years depending on your time frame, I wasn't so sure 380 00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:55,040 that it was going to be the right vehicle for the next 50 381 00:20:55,040 --> 00:20:59,240 years. And so I moved up to Oregon at 382 00:20:59,240 --> 00:21:01,840 that time as well. So it had kind of a gap where 383 00:21:01,840 --> 00:21:05,160 lifestyle was changing. I had a lot of time for reading, 384 00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:09,520 discovered price of Tomorrow's Sovereign Individual, you know, 385 00:21:09,520 --> 00:21:12,280 all of these books that that are foundational for a lot of people 386 00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:15,160 in the space. And I knew that it was time to 387 00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:17,440 start unwinding the real estate portfolio. 388 00:21:17,560 --> 00:21:22,680 But the biggest gap for me was how can I sell a cash flowing 389 00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:25,840 asset for an asset that doesn't produce any cash flow at all. 390 00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:30,760 And we all saw what happened with Celsius and Block Fi and, 391 00:21:30,760 --> 00:21:33,200 you know, all of these places where people were trying to get 392 00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:36,560 yield on their Bitcoin and, and get an income stream from it. 393 00:21:36,560 --> 00:21:39,080 That blew up. That didn't work out too well. 394 00:21:39,320 --> 00:21:43,400 So the thought was, how do I, how do I actually make an income 395 00:21:43,400 --> 00:21:46,160 in the space? And so I felt, OK, I can do 396 00:21:46,160 --> 00:21:47,480 this, you know, let's give it a shot. 397 00:21:48,040 --> 00:21:51,480 So started small, tried out with just a few small facilities, but 398 00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:57,000 really went big with a collocation host and that was 399 00:21:57,000 --> 00:21:59,840 about a half $1,000,000 purchase that I made. 400 00:22:00,800 --> 00:22:03,000 Yeah, it's very interesting point to make. 401 00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:07,400 And I wanted to ask you like why did you decide to sell the the 402 00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:10,000 real estate portfolio like was there? 403 00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:11,800 I mean you talk about best of income. 404 00:22:12,320 --> 00:22:15,200 You know, if you see the discussions around real estate, 405 00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:18,520 I have a friend who sold a lot of homes and and eventually is 406 00:22:18,520 --> 00:22:21,880 into Bitcoin and he says, you know, I never get called about a 407 00:22:21,880 --> 00:22:24,680 leaky faucet or a squatter or whatever. 408 00:22:24,680 --> 00:22:26,320 You know, Bitcoin ever calls me about that. 409 00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:30,240 So yeah, like what, what made it click for you to like move from 410 00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:33,120 real estate into Bitcoin? Like, was it like realizing that 411 00:22:33,120 --> 00:22:35,480 passive income isn't really passive at all? 412 00:22:35,760 --> 00:22:38,560 I mean, the mining is also not, you know, setting up the mining 413 00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:42,160 for your example. You know, it's also not passive 414 00:22:42,160 --> 00:22:43,800 in that sense, but like, what? Yeah. 415 00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:45,240 What? What made that click for you? 416 00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:49,040 20/20 showed me that most people's properties were backed 417 00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:52,400 by debt and you can go back to 2008 and and see why this is the 418 00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:53,960 case. Didn't matter if you owned your 419 00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:56,680 house. I will not have real estate as 420 00:22:56,680 --> 00:23:00,000 my wealth building and wealth securing vehicle. 421 00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:02,560 It was just too much this quote passive income and find that 422 00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:06,440 it's not so passive even if you have a a halfway decent manager. 423 00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:12,600 So, you know, the extra time, the extra maintenance, the loss 424 00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:16,040 of faith and it being the right asset for the next 50 years. 425 00:23:16,120 --> 00:23:18,520 Wow, that's awesome, man. Awesome. 426 00:23:18,520 --> 00:23:21,440 Well, that's that's really cool to see to make the switch, 427 00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:25,360 right, Because conceptually, you know, we talk about, you know, 428 00:23:25,360 --> 00:23:29,200 Bitcoin will eventually demonetize everything that's 429 00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:32,080 overvalued, right? With real estate, I think as the 430 00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:36,200 prime example, then you know, that's Michael Saylor talk. 431 00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:39,120 He talks about the S&P 500 on these companies. 432 00:23:39,120 --> 00:23:44,160 But I think that the store value kind of like like moving from 433 00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:48,960 preferred real estate to preferred Bitcoin, I think will 434 00:23:49,360 --> 00:23:51,800 have a great impact on society in general, right? 435 00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:53,760 Like that. If if everything or like all the 436 00:23:53,760 --> 00:23:56,800 homes become cheaper to live in, I think we will solve a lot of 437 00:23:56,800 --> 00:23:58,520 problems. So I think it's really cool to 438 00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:01,640 have you as an example, someone who actually made that switch. 439 00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:09,480 So now you offer, I would define it as like hosted mining, right? 440 00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:13,400 I think that's the term for it. How can people that participate 441 00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:16,320 in New York facilities generate this passive income? 442 00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:19,680 Like is it really passive? Is it really like, OK, I send 443 00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:22,760 you the money and and you give me Bitcoin every month or is 444 00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:23,800 there more to it? Yeah. 445 00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:26,520 So you, you nailed it. If you want to simplify it to 446 00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:29,240 its, its bare bones. The reason that people invest in 447 00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:32,000 real estate is to get tax advantages because you can 448 00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:34,640 depreciate these assets over any time frame. 449 00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:38,080 And when you actually own your mining computer and it's managed 450 00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:40,760 by somebody else, that means that you're handing the money to 451 00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:44,760 manage an asset for you that produces Bitcoin, but that 452 00:24:44,760 --> 00:24:47,320 depreciates over a three to five year time frame. 453 00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:50,000 But the the benefit really is hands off. 454 00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:55,160 You get as involved as you want to, you can to your setup call 455 00:24:55,160 --> 00:24:59,080 and and send us money and just see Bitcoin come in and and not 456 00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:01,880 really talk to us. Or you can participate in every 457 00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:05,600 one of our educational calls and come out for a site visit and do 458 00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:08,360 it like I did. So they can either go, you know, 459 00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:11,320 retire to a beach somewhere or keep doing what they do best in 460 00:25:11,320 --> 00:25:13,320 their active business. That's the service that we 461 00:25:13,320 --> 00:25:15,320 offer. Yeah. 462 00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:19,080 So how do you position it with regards to, you know, if I'm 463 00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:23,000 into Bitcoin and a half cash, you know, I, I can also buy 464 00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:26,400 Bitcoin versus buying a miner and getting this passive income. 465 00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:29,720 Like how, how do you approach talking about this? 466 00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:31,280 So there's. There's a couple different 467 00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:34,440 reasons why you would mine instead of buy, and I qualify 468 00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:37,440 this by saying you should buy Bitcoin, you should own Bitcoin, 469 00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:40,720 and you don't get into mining to stack miners, you get into 470 00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:44,720 mining to stack Bitcoin, right? Let's just set that as the the 471 00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:46,880 ground level. The goal is not to end the game 472 00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:49,040 with the most miners, but with the most Bitcoin. 473 00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:54,240 So the reason that people would get into mining 1 is it's a tax 474 00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:57,920 lever to pull. So if you just say you have 475 00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:01,760 taxable income this year and you go and buy Bitcoin, still own or 476 00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:05,840 excuse me, you still owe taxes on your income because you 477 00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:08,640 didn't offset it with any kind of physical equipment. 478 00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:12,120 Businesses with things like heavy equipment or pre paying 479 00:26:12,120 --> 00:26:15,880 for marketing expenses or buying a private jet, you'd appreciate, 480 00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:17,960 you know, there's there's all these different vehicles, 481 00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:22,000 trucks, you know, SUVs, Range Rovers, whatever it may be. 482 00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:26,720 They're all trying to offset the need to pay the government to 483 00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:28,520 get something that you can use in the business. 484 00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:31,680 So how do you mitigate kind of like this hosted mining FUD? 485 00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:35,720 I mean last cycle we had different companies, I think the 486 00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:40,840 the main one that got attention and implode it as Compass mining 487 00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:45,360 and I think you know mainly and it's also my fault. 488 00:26:45,360 --> 00:26:47,120 So I'd love to hear how you approach that. 489 00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:50,560 You know, like conceptually I'm all on board, but it's of 490 00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:53,840 course, it's hard to think about, you know, OK, so I own a 491 00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:58,560 miner that is in some sort of facility, perhaps in another 492 00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:01,400 geographical location, another jurisdiction, etcetera. 493 00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:04,800 You do the maintenance, you make sure it's working, but what if 494 00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:08,480 it breaks or, I don't know, there's a flooding or there's a 495 00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:10,560 whatever, right? If you've been in the mining 496 00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:13,600 space for any length of time, you've you've heard any number 497 00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:18,040 of horror stories and there's a a couple things to unpack with 498 00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:20,240 that. One of them is, you know, many 499 00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:24,360 miners have gotten burned by seeking out the cheapest energy 500 00:27:24,360 --> 00:27:28,480 they could overseas somewhere, whether it be Russia or, you 501 00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:30,960 know, Paraguay or Venezuela or Kazakhstan. 502 00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:33,160 Miners are naturally incentivized to find the 503 00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:36,320 cheapest energy. But sometimes the choice to take 504 00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:39,720 the cheapest energy at all costs is the most expensive decision 505 00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:42,480 that you can make. So that's one. 506 00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:46,040 And, and the way that we approach that is being in the US 507 00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:49,680 is, is one of the safest places historically that you could be. 508 00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:53,960 And specifically Oregon we really like because it's got 509 00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:57,600 this extremely friendly climate. It's got really good precedent 510 00:27:57,600 --> 00:28:01,080 for data centers being here. And in general, your machines 511 00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:05,200 are going to last much longer than if they were in, say, Texas 512 00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:07,240 or somewhere that's very hot and humid. 513 00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:10,840 So that's one thing is being at a good jurisdiction and being in 514 00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:13,840 a good environment. And then the the second thing 515 00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:19,840 is, yeah, if you have a fire or flood or, you know, tornado or 516 00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:22,920 something that destroys your facility, like earlier this 517 00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:25,720 year, there were quite a few hurricanes that that spread 518 00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:28,760 through the southeast of the US and a lot of facilities in in 519 00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:32,480 Georgia were damaged. One way that we mitigate that, 520 00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:35,560 again, Oregon is really great because it's got this really low 521 00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:39,400 incidence of natural disasters where it's this very even cool 522 00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:43,320 climate throughout the year and not really prone to these these 523 00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:47,000 kind of more terrible natural disasters that happen. 524 00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:49,120 And then the other thing is just insurance. 525 00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:52,280 I mean, in the case that everything goes wrong and, and 526 00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:56,640 your stuff gets destroyed, your host needs to be insured, which, 527 00:28:56,720 --> 00:28:59,680 you know, we carry great insurance policies. 528 00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:04,080 And unfortunately sometimes it's hard to get a strong insurance 529 00:29:04,080 --> 00:29:07,040 policy when you put your minors in questionable locations in the 530 00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:10,360 world. So anything that would be true 531 00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:13,880 of running a more traditional business, you also have to look 532 00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:17,400 forward to or you have to look out for in the mining business. 533 00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:21,160 And unfortunately, throughout the history of hosted Bitcoin 534 00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:24,400 mining, there's been a lot of stories of people not running 535 00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:27,960 businesses in the way that you would expect someone to run this 536 00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:31,760 kind of operation that often is housing millions or 10s of 537 00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:34,120 millions or even hundreds of millions of dollars worth of 538 00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:38,360 computing equipment. So basic standards around 539 00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:42,480 securing a business and securing property are extremely important 540 00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:44,840 and I think we've done a great job mitigating those. 541 00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:48,840 And we're in Oregon, so we have the mighty Columbia River 542 00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:52,280 Hydropower Network that goes through Oregon and Washington as 543 00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:54,000 well as British Columbia up in Canada. 544 00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:57,520 So that is our main source of power is hydroelectricity. 545 00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:00,680 And if you check out for example, video on our YouTube 546 00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:03,480 channel, you can actually see our site as well as the dam 547 00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:06,600 that's nearby that's supplying that that electricity. 548 00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:11,080 And in terms of just, you know, raw numbers for growth, we 549 00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:13,240 started out the year with just one site. 550 00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:15,920 We're now at 4 sites all across Oregon. 551 00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:20,520 We have about 25 clients in all of those sites from a single 552 00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:23,520 unit to several 100 units and excited to keep growing. 553 00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:26,400 I would expect that in a few months we're probably at at 554 00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:29,400 something like 10X our current capacity just because we've been 555 00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:32,000 in the middle of a fundraise now for a while. 556 00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:35,440 And we really want to be the largest grid balancing resource 557 00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:39,640 in the Pacific Northwest to that mission of abundant energy and 558 00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:42,440 making the cost of living cheaper for everybody through 559 00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:45,560 energy innovation. If we can grow to the size that 560 00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:50,000 we want to, then we've got a real vehicle where we can have 561 00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:52,520 an impact on the lives of people not just that are in our 562 00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:55,280 facilities and getting passive income through Bitcoin mining, 563 00:30:55,320 --> 00:30:56,920 but the local communities as well. 564 00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:02,040 Quick question, if you have your Bitcoin in self custody, where 565 00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:04,000 are you keeping your Bitcoin seed words? 566 00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:07,360 For me there's only one way and it's backing up my seed phrase 567 00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:10,080 with stamp seats. It's a single durable plate 568 00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:14,000 without any parts or materials. Stamp your words into solid 569 00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:17,080 titanium, which is fire resistant, water resistant and 570 00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:19,720 built to last. Unlike etching or engraving, 571 00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:22,320 stamp seats better. The tools help you to deeply 572 00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:26,160 stamp every letter for permanent readability, making it easy for 573 00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:28,000 you to protect your generational wealth. 574 00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:30,600 Don't risk losing your seat phrase on paper. 575 00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:33,280 Get a stamp seat plate. For unmatched protection. 576 00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:38,400 You can use code Brom that's Bram for 15% off at 577 00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:41,960 stampseat.com. I'm not really up to date about 578 00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:45,880 the the Oregon the Bitcoin friendliness in Oregon, but have 579 00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:50,920 you had interest or are talks with with local or or state 580 00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:53,680 government? Yet so Oregon is is a blue state 581 00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:59,240 so it's it's not necessarily as easy of an environment like 582 00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:01,680 Texas or Oklahoma or some of these states that have passed 583 00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:05,000 right to mine bills. But the benefit that we have is 584 00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:08,920 we've got some very prominent and active bitcoiners who live 585 00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:12,080 in Oregon, including Troy Cross and Dennis Porter. 586 00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:15,760 You know, they're they're both based here and so earlier this 587 00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:18,400 year, I'm not sure if this has been put forth yet, it might be 588 00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:21,640 about a month from now in the legislative session, but they 589 00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:25,560 are going to introduce some Bitcoin friendly legislation 590 00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:29,360 that is a right to self custody bill, right to run a node and 591 00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:32,400 all of the things that we've come to expect from, you know, 592 00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:36,040 enshrining the rights of bitcoiners in there at the state 593 00:32:36,040 --> 00:32:38,320 level. And I'm really, really excited 594 00:32:38,320 --> 00:32:41,800 about what Dennis has done in several states across the US and 595 00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:44,200 the way that that's been progressing and excited that 596 00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:46,160 Oregon to that list. It's good you mentioned that. 597 00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:50,200 I think my least watched episode is the one with Dennis, whereas 598 00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:54,080 I think that should be one of the most watched episodes. 599 00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:58,040 It's, you know, when you think about policy regulation, stuff 600 00:32:58,040 --> 00:32:59,960 like that, you know, you think like, oh, that's boring. 601 00:32:59,960 --> 00:33:03,800 But I think actually Dennis has found a great, let's call it a 602 00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:07,400 strategy in order to, yeah, basically like create a 603 00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:12,720 blueprint right for for states to enshrine these rights into 604 00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:17,520 state state policy, which I think is a perfect another like 605 00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:21,760 sly roundabout way to actually, you know, really get these 606 00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:24,640 rights in into law, which probably will open up, you know, 607 00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:27,600 way more opportunities for you or anyone else who wants to do 608 00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:30,320 something with Bitcoin in in the state that they live in. 609 00:33:30,320 --> 00:33:33,600 So, you know, if you're listening to this podcast, go to 610 00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:36,880 my channel, look for a Dennis Porter, and you will find that 611 00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:39,640 episode because I think it's really, really great what he's 612 00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:42,240 doing. It's, it's a constant topic in 613 00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:45,680 the Bitcoin circle that, you know, we don't need the state. 614 00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:47,480 We don't need the state for anything. 615 00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:51,560 You know, this is an independent system and I appreciate that 616 00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:54,880 perspective. But you know, and in line with 617 00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:58,200 what Jeff Booth talks about, there is no US versus them. 618 00:33:58,360 --> 00:34:00,880 Like it's all us. We're all in this together in 619 00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:04,240 some sense. So everybody that you have no 620 00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:08,000 interest in cooperating with or say, you know, doing business 621 00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:11,040 with or, or making these things happen, there's just other 622 00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:14,360 people that are waiting to be orange built and their vehicle 623 00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:18,120 might be getting some of these bills passed into law such that 624 00:34:18,120 --> 00:34:20,679 they're forced to look at it. It's the same with getting 625 00:34:20,679 --> 00:34:23,480 pensions on board, getting other corporations on board. 626 00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:27,320 All of this is critical infrastructure for the next wave 627 00:34:27,320 --> 00:34:29,600 of people to be able to come on and feel safe. 628 00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:33,800 Yeah, yeah, I, I, I, I agree 100%. 629 00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:38,600 I mean, what? Whatever way up, up over, under 630 00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:42,800 left, right, you know, we have to get Bitcoin everywhere. 631 00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:46,400 And I think, you know, you, why would you want to keep arguing 632 00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:50,600 with people that don't like it if you can also, I don't want to 633 00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:55,480 say subvert, but like make them adopted through logic and reason 634 00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:58,720 or, you know, in, in terms of Wall Street, I'd say great. 635 00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:03,960 But that only solidifies Bitcoin into the world, you know, and 636 00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:07,080 then we get closer to that future that we all envision. 637 00:35:07,080 --> 00:35:12,040 So I, I agree with that 100% that we should always, we don't 638 00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:16,400 need these people, I'd say, but I think it's beneficial for 639 00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:20,360 everyone when they are on board, whether they understand it or 640 00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:24,120 not, you know, So, yeah, I, I, I agree with that. 641 00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:26,600 But yeah, I'm excited to see that, you know, like just just 642 00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:30,160 general game theory of adoption and that something I wanted to 643 00:35:30,160 --> 00:35:31,480 talk about. But then more like about the 644 00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:34,880 game theory of, of mining, you know, like currently we have 645 00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:39,560 about 5 countries known that that are mining Bitcoin with 646 00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:43,960 government resources. I think it's Kenya, Bhutan, El 647 00:35:43,960 --> 00:35:48,680 Salvador, Ethiopia. And the other one I forgot. 648 00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:52,440 I think it's is that Qatar or Oman where there's like a 649 00:35:52,440 --> 00:35:54,800 marathon? Oman, I think it's Oman, yeah. 650 00:35:55,240 --> 00:35:57,120 And you know, it's so fascinating to think about like 651 00:35:57,160 --> 00:36:00,080 we are still so early, etcetera. I think we are still early. 652 00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:02,480 But I mean there's countries mining Bitcoin with government 653 00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:04,560 resources. I mean that's where we are after 654 00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:06,760 15 years. And I really realized that 655 00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:10,400 actually when someone talked about that Middle East facility, 656 00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:13,240 you know, like that's a billion dollar facility. 657 00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:15,360 And then the someone said, like, do you think that's an 658 00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:17,600 experiment? Like if you invest a billion 659 00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:20,040 dollars, like you know what you're investing it to, right. 660 00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:23,160 So you should not approach this as an experiment. 661 00:36:23,160 --> 00:36:25,840 This has a business case, you know, so they know what this is, 662 00:36:25,840 --> 00:36:27,880 they know why they want it, they know why they can do it, you 663 00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:30,280 know, like all these things. And then I really realized, 664 00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:33,240 yeah, like, of course, like we are already there. 665 00:36:34,040 --> 00:36:35,600 And I think that will that will grow. 666 00:36:35,600 --> 00:36:38,760 But that is the question that I wanted to ask you, like what are 667 00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:42,960 your thoughts on the progress of this global game theory with 668 00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:46,000 regards to mining Bitcoin with government resources? 669 00:36:46,240 --> 00:36:51,160 Five countries is still quite early in my opinion, and I'll be 670 00:36:51,160 --> 00:36:54,720 the devil's advocate on this and say a billion dollars, that's a 671 00:36:54,720 --> 00:36:59,120 lot of money maybe to you and I. But for a sovereign wealth fund 672 00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:02,960 or a nation state, a billion dollars is just a taste test 673 00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:07,480 that is, you know, regularly wasted in a government budget 674 00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:10,720 on, you know, an hourly basis, let's say in the US. 675 00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:16,240 So it's, it's a lot of money. But put it in this framing. 676 00:37:17,160 --> 00:37:24,040 Bitcoin now is a $2 trillion asset and it's still .2% of all 677 00:37:24,040 --> 00:37:27,800 global assets. When Bitcoin was a billion 678 00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:32,960 dollar asset, it was huge in the sense of of most companies never 679 00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:37,280 get to that size, but it was absolutely minuscule and could 680 00:37:37,280 --> 00:37:41,520 be really easily overlooked in the sea of investment vehicles 681 00:37:41,520 --> 00:37:43,240 that most people store their wealth in. 682 00:37:43,880 --> 00:37:47,920 So mining as the underpinning infrastructure for that. 683 00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:51,920 A billion dollars sounds like a big investment, but if you put 684 00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:55,200 it in the context of the world's energy resources and the world's 685 00:37:55,200 --> 00:37:59,600 untapped energy resources is still just the very beginning of 686 00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:02,200 what we're going to see go into the space, in my opinion, Yeah. 687 00:38:03,040 --> 00:38:06,000 Yeah, it's just, you know, just such an interesting thought when 688 00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:08,640 you just think about like, I have a seat, we have a seat in 689 00:38:08,640 --> 00:38:11,000 this stadium and we're going to watch this unfold. 690 00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:15,680 You know, like it's just so interesting to to just follow in 691 00:38:15,680 --> 00:38:17,880 general. Like we can conceptualize about 692 00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:20,480 the game theory and all the low hanging fruit that we mentioned 693 00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:21,920 in the beginning. Like, yeah, it just makes so 694 00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:24,640 much rational sense to start doing this. 695 00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:29,080 But yeah, the information around this is not evenly distributed, 696 00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:31,800 right? So it goes in waves up and down. 697 00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:34,840 But I do think there, there will be some sort of inflection 698 00:38:34,840 --> 00:38:38,400 point. I like the analogy that safety 699 00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:41,200 in a moose has with like gunpowder, right? 700 00:38:41,200 --> 00:38:42,720 Like you cannot ignore gunpowder. 701 00:38:42,720 --> 00:38:45,720 You cannot say like my sticks and stones or my Spears are 702 00:38:45,720 --> 00:38:47,720 better than your than your gun, right? 703 00:38:47,720 --> 00:38:51,000 And then the poof, you're dead. You know, like that I like 704 00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:55,080 thinking about these processes that have already happened in 705 00:38:55,080 --> 00:38:57,960 the past dozens of times. And this is just a different 706 00:38:58,560 --> 00:39:01,840 type of context. If this was a bad idea, a bad 707 00:39:01,840 --> 00:39:05,080 concept, you know, if the concept of decentralized non 708 00:39:05,080 --> 00:39:09,320 sovereign, you know, global instant money is a bad idea, 709 00:39:09,320 --> 00:39:13,400 that it would have died 15 years ago, you know, do you know how 710 00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:16,760 many ideas, random ideas get, you know, published on the 711 00:39:16,760 --> 00:39:19,880 Internet every day? And we are at countries mining 712 00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:22,240 Bitcoin with government resources, you know, so this is 713 00:39:22,240 --> 00:39:25,200 not a bad idea. Like this has potential to exist 714 00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:26,560 for a very long time. Yeah. 715 00:39:26,560 --> 00:39:31,080 Once you see that, it just becomes entertaining to see how 716 00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:33,240 how this is all playing out, you know? 717 00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:37,040 Just for Bitcoin in general, the fact that we are entering a 718 00:39:37,040 --> 00:39:41,720 period where the most powerful country in the world has a 719 00:39:41,840 --> 00:39:45,160 supportive administration for this technology is something 720 00:39:45,160 --> 00:39:49,640 that we haven't had yet. And I don't think people have 721 00:39:49,640 --> 00:39:52,000 fully underwritten what that means. 722 00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:54,920 I mean, a talks about a strategic Bitcoin Reserve bill 723 00:39:54,920 --> 00:39:59,720 coming out within the next 90 days are just like if you had 724 00:39:59,720 --> 00:40:02,320 talked about that two years ago, people would have called you 725 00:40:02,320 --> 00:40:04,760 crazy. And the fact that it's being 726 00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:08,360 drafted and and likely going to come to a vote within the next 727 00:40:08,360 --> 00:40:11,240 few months is something that I don't think most people are 728 00:40:11,240 --> 00:40:14,440 priced in. And you know, just in terms of 729 00:40:14,440 --> 00:40:17,360 what we're talking about earlier, most of the capital in 730 00:40:17,360 --> 00:40:21,880 the world still has not fully understood the space and still 731 00:40:21,880 --> 00:40:26,680 has not entered in any kind of size at .2% of global assets. 732 00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:31,120 If we think this is the most important asset in history, then 733 00:40:31,120 --> 00:40:35,440 there's a very, very long way to run in terms of people getting 734 00:40:35,440 --> 00:40:39,480 on board with this and the most the deepest pools of capital 735 00:40:39,480 --> 00:40:42,200 getting on board. And in the mining sense 736 00:40:42,200 --> 00:40:48,000 specifically, energy has decided the fate of nations and 737 00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:49,760 civilizations throughout history. 738 00:40:49,760 --> 00:40:53,840 And this is like you said, this is this is gunpowder for the 739 00:40:53,840 --> 00:40:56,520 energy world. This is a puzzle piece and a 740 00:40:56,520 --> 00:41:00,600 technology and a step change innovation that I think 741 00:41:00,600 --> 00:41:04,960 completely changes the game in what is the underpinning 742 00:41:04,960 --> 00:41:10,040 resource of our civilization. So the fact that only 5 out of 743 00:41:10,640 --> 00:41:14,040 however many countries are in the world, 183 or 293, I can't 744 00:41:14,040 --> 00:41:17,880 remember, you know, less than 10% of the countries in the 745 00:41:17,880 --> 00:41:22,040 world have caught on to the most important energy innovation of 746 00:41:22,040 --> 00:41:26,840 the last century shows you that this is like electricity in the 747 00:41:26,840 --> 00:41:28,840 late 1800s. You know, people are still 748 00:41:28,840 --> 00:41:30,680 afraid of it. They don't understand it. 749 00:41:30,680 --> 00:41:33,960 They're worried that it's going to to upend civilization and 750 00:41:33,960 --> 00:41:37,200 kill them. And the progression of that 751 00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:41,480 being integrated into society is going to be one of the most 752 00:41:41,480 --> 00:41:45,240 impressive things to, you know, watch on the one hand. 753 00:41:45,240 --> 00:41:49,040 And, and in my case, I'm, I'm really excited to participate as 754 00:41:49,040 --> 00:41:53,280 directly as I can into it. There's there's not many people 755 00:41:54,160 --> 00:41:57,160 through history who get an opportunity to participate so 756 00:41:57,160 --> 00:41:59,480 directly and something that can be so impactful. 757 00:41:59,480 --> 00:42:02,800 So I'm personally just really grateful to live in this time 758 00:42:02,800 --> 00:42:06,760 and to have a set of skills that I think are applicable to 759 00:42:06,760 --> 00:42:09,920 bringing about a future that makes life better for everybody. 760 00:42:09,920 --> 00:42:11,800 Yeah. I think this is also one of the 761 00:42:12,280 --> 00:42:15,440 things that makes it hard to realize that we are living 762 00:42:15,440 --> 00:42:19,080 through this time, right? It's so big and it feels 763 00:42:19,080 --> 00:42:21,600 sometimes that all the big things, all the big shifts, 764 00:42:21,680 --> 00:42:23,200 right? Like all the big technological 765 00:42:23,200 --> 00:42:25,400 advancements are things of the past. 766 00:42:25,840 --> 00:42:28,760 But we are really living in a time where a lot of things are 767 00:42:28,760 --> 00:42:32,240 happening at the same time. And I feel like because 768 00:42:32,240 --> 00:42:36,000 understanding Bitcoin is such a ego journey in a sense, right, 769 00:42:36,080 --> 00:42:39,920 that that is also something that challenges you where you think 770 00:42:39,920 --> 00:42:42,040 like that. I really figure this out. 771 00:42:42,040 --> 00:42:44,280 Am I really living through this period in time now? 772 00:42:44,280 --> 00:42:46,120 Probably not. You know, like I should not pay 773 00:42:46,120 --> 00:42:47,520 attention. You know, something like that. 774 00:42:47,880 --> 00:42:50,920 I think it plays part in that. But yeah, I love what you said. 775 00:42:50,920 --> 00:42:54,400 I also think this is this is the most important technological 776 00:42:54,400 --> 00:42:58,360 discovery of our lifetimes. And yeah, I mean, we should pay 777 00:42:58,360 --> 00:43:00,560 attention to it. So I think that's what we're 778 00:43:00,560 --> 00:43:01,920 doing. And I love that. 779 00:43:01,920 --> 00:43:05,160 And I, I see your enthusiasm. So I think that's great. 780 00:43:05,160 --> 00:43:08,080 I I wanted to ask you two more more questions. 781 00:43:08,080 --> 00:43:11,200 A small question, but also I think what could potentially be 782 00:43:11,200 --> 00:43:14,800 a big question, because one of the things that that people talk 783 00:43:14,800 --> 00:43:17,640 about in the future. And I wonder what you think when 784 00:43:17,640 --> 00:43:20,640 that will be. You know, like if the block 785 00:43:20,640 --> 00:43:24,960 reward, you know, it gets cut in half, of course, every time gets 786 00:43:24,960 --> 00:43:29,040 smaller and smaller, where probably the competition will 787 00:43:29,760 --> 00:43:32,520 heat up more if Bitcoin becomes worth more. 788 00:43:32,520 --> 00:43:34,400 So I think there's an interesting dynamic. 789 00:43:34,760 --> 00:43:37,480 They're like, yeah, how will miners operate and make money 790 00:43:37,480 --> 00:43:40,440 when a block rewards keep getting smaller and smaller? 791 00:43:40,440 --> 00:43:46,640 Like what has to happen for that business to stay sustainable but 792 00:43:46,640 --> 00:43:50,520 also also to keep the network secure? 793 00:43:50,520 --> 00:43:56,480 Over the next 10 years, we're at 94 point, like two, 5% of all of 794 00:43:56,480 --> 00:43:59,000 the Bitcoin that will ever be mined has already been mined, 795 00:43:59,000 --> 00:44:02,520 right? And the next 5% will be over the 796 00:44:02,520 --> 00:44:08,240 next 10 years and then it'll be 120 years for that last 1% to be 797 00:44:08,240 --> 00:44:10,560 mined. So if you're not paying 798 00:44:10,560 --> 00:44:14,840 attention to mining specifically in the next 10 years, I'm not 799 00:44:14,840 --> 00:44:16,560 going to say that it won't be viable. 800 00:44:16,560 --> 00:44:19,760 But you know, this is kind of like do or die. 801 00:44:19,760 --> 00:44:23,160 This is really the opportunity of a lifetime to participate and 802 00:44:23,160 --> 00:44:28,400 focus and really buckle down and put energy and resources to 803 00:44:28,520 --> 00:44:30,560 being the best in the world at this if you can. 804 00:44:31,360 --> 00:44:34,160 So that's one thing I'll say is that this is absolutely the 805 00:44:34,160 --> 00:44:36,440 time. The next 10 years is, you know, 806 00:44:36,440 --> 00:44:38,560 laser focus, don't think about anything else. 807 00:44:38,560 --> 00:44:41,400 And you'll probably not have to do anything else after that if 808 00:44:41,400 --> 00:44:44,440 you prefer not to. The second thing I'll say is, 809 00:44:44,480 --> 00:44:47,760 you know, this was the intention of the network design all along 810 00:44:47,760 --> 00:44:50,880 was that it wouldn't run on subsidies, that it would run on 811 00:44:51,400 --> 00:44:55,080 actual transaction fees and and use of the network. 812 00:44:55,480 --> 00:45:01,000 So we've seen this happen in brief periods when people are 813 00:45:01,000 --> 00:45:04,480 are using the network very actively or they're putting on 814 00:45:04,480 --> 00:45:07,200 these things like ordinals or runes or these other, other 815 00:45:07,200 --> 00:45:11,000 types of data on the chain where transaction fees become the 816 00:45:11,000 --> 00:45:13,600 majority of the revenue that miners are earning. 817 00:45:14,280 --> 00:45:17,560 And so the question really is just when does that flip happen? 818 00:45:17,800 --> 00:45:20,960 Is it in the next year? Is it in the next 5 years, next 819 00:45:20,960 --> 00:45:23,240 10 years? You mentioned that the block 820 00:45:23,240 --> 00:45:25,800 subsidies going down to the point where by today's 821 00:45:25,800 --> 00:45:28,680 standards, it's not a lot of Bitcoin that miners are going to 822 00:45:28,680 --> 00:45:33,120 earn and the number of miners on the network are absolutely going 823 00:45:33,120 --> 00:45:35,960 to be greater. So there has to be some 824 00:45:35,960 --> 00:45:40,680 mechanism, some way for minors to still be viable 140 years 825 00:45:40,680 --> 00:45:43,080 from now. And the answer to that is just 826 00:45:43,080 --> 00:45:46,800 more usage of the network. So if you, like me, think that 827 00:45:46,800 --> 00:45:50,200 this is the world's money minimum, the base layer of the 828 00:45:50,200 --> 00:45:55,200 world's assets, then you expect more people to be using it and 829 00:45:55,200 --> 00:45:57,920 paying to use it. And that is the bet that we make 830 00:45:57,920 --> 00:46:02,000 as minors looking out further than 10 years in the future is 831 00:46:02,000 --> 00:46:04,280 that people are actually going to be using this network and 832 00:46:04,280 --> 00:46:10,640 paying for block space and that one to 10% of transactions or 833 00:46:10,640 --> 00:46:13,680 one to 10% of mining revenue coming from transactions that 834 00:46:13,680 --> 00:46:18,760 it'll be more like 50 or 80%. So that's that's the directional 835 00:46:18,760 --> 00:46:21,800 bet that you make is that more people will use the network and 836 00:46:21,800 --> 00:46:24,040 pay for it. Yeah, I think that's a good 837 00:46:24,040 --> 00:46:27,640 thing to emphasize because in essence, Bitcoin at least for 838 00:46:27,640 --> 00:46:31,920 the next 10-15 years, I'd say it's still an experiment because 839 00:46:31,920 --> 00:46:37,560 I personally do see some sort of failure opportunity there, 840 00:46:37,560 --> 00:46:39,360 right? Like I think the next 1020 841 00:46:39,360 --> 00:46:43,280 years, if the price goes to a million plus, then you know, 842 00:46:43,280 --> 00:46:48,080 Fiat wise you could still probably earn enough, enough 843 00:46:48,080 --> 00:46:50,280 money, right? But yeah, we have to get to a 844 00:46:50,280 --> 00:46:54,560 point where all the blocks are full all the time, basically, 845 00:46:54,760 --> 00:47:00,320 right, With with with lots of more and more transactions for 846 00:47:00,320 --> 00:47:03,240 you to also earn more. And I think there's still a 847 00:47:03,240 --> 00:47:06,560 challenge there. When we look at like how we 848 00:47:06,560 --> 00:47:09,760 approach Bitcoin now, which I agree with, you know, it has to 849 00:47:09,760 --> 00:47:12,640 be a store value. Like I have to be able to save 850 00:47:12,640 --> 00:47:16,600 in it and be protected before I'm going to ask for it in 851 00:47:16,600 --> 00:47:20,120 return for a product or a service or whatever. 852 00:47:20,160 --> 00:47:24,040 But I do think we have to get to the medium of exchange part 853 00:47:24,040 --> 00:47:26,520 eventually. Because even when layer layer 854 00:47:26,520 --> 00:47:29,240 twos will be built on top where for example there will be 855 00:47:29,240 --> 00:47:33,000 quicker transactions, the settlement eventually will be 856 00:47:33,040 --> 00:47:36,120 maybe one big transaction from one party to another. 857 00:47:36,120 --> 00:47:37,560 Kind of like how banks do it now. 858 00:47:37,720 --> 00:47:40,160 Everybody's got different opinions on the kind of 859 00:47:40,160 --> 00:47:44,440 arbitrary data on top of financial data being transacted 860 00:47:44,440 --> 00:47:46,560 on chain. And it's my opinion that there 861 00:47:46,560 --> 00:47:50,200 will just be more of it and that people will be putting different 862 00:47:50,200 --> 00:47:53,760 types of use cases on top in addition to just moving money 863 00:47:53,760 --> 00:47:57,240 around. So historically, those have been 864 00:47:57,240 --> 00:48:01,280 what people have paid most to include in the blocks versus 865 00:48:01,280 --> 00:48:03,600 just standard financial transactions. 866 00:48:03,600 --> 00:48:07,360 And we would expect that we see more of that, not less of it as 867 00:48:07,360 --> 00:48:11,400 time goes on. So personally, I think that 868 00:48:11,400 --> 00:48:13,680 there's more than enough opportunity for people to 869 00:48:13,680 --> 00:48:17,640 actually use the chain for all sorts of different purposes and 870 00:48:17,640 --> 00:48:20,720 pay to use it and that minors are going to be well taken care 871 00:48:20,720 --> 00:48:24,080 of far into the future, but can't predict the future. 872 00:48:24,120 --> 00:48:26,120 So you know, going to take it day by day. 873 00:48:26,360 --> 00:48:29,600 All right, man, last question and I ask everyone the same 874 00:48:29,600 --> 00:48:33,040 question, which is what is a core belief that you will never 875 00:48:33,040 --> 00:48:35,600 let go? Any time that you find scarcity 876 00:48:35,600 --> 00:48:39,080 in your life, you might ask yourself, is this true? 877 00:48:39,080 --> 00:48:42,920 Or is this just my pattern of thinking, and I've found it to 878 00:48:42,920 --> 00:48:47,440 be true in my own life, that any really truly wonderful thing 879 00:48:47,440 --> 00:48:50,720 that was unlocked for me was usually unlocked just by a shift 880 00:48:50,720 --> 00:48:53,680 in perception and realizing something that was already 881 00:48:53,680 --> 00:48:56,520 there, but that I was ignoring? Also, man, thanks so much for 882 00:48:56,520 --> 00:48:59,000 sharing and thanks for this conversation that I really 883 00:48:59,000 --> 00:49:01,280 enjoyed it. And yeah, man, let's stay in 884 00:49:01,280 --> 00:49:03,480 touch. I hope you enjoyed this episode. 885 00:49:03,560 --> 00:49:06,760 If you did, you can click here to find more just like it and 886 00:49:06,760 --> 00:49:09,680 click here to find all Bitcoin for Millennials podcast 887 00:49:09,760 --> 00:49:12,680 episodes. Also, please like this video if 888 00:49:12,680 --> 00:49:15,320 you want to help shine a light on the message of Bitcoin and 889 00:49:15,320 --> 00:49:17,560 subscribe to my channel to stay connected. 890 00:49:17,760 --> 00:49:19,480 I hope to see you for a next episode. 891 00:49:19,880 --> 00:49:20,080 Bye.