All right, well, this is a crossover episode, so I'm going
to welcome Brandon. Brandon Keys to Bitcoin for
Millennials. Yeah, thanks for coming on the
state of Bitcoin, man. Boom.
We're here. Yeah, I think I'll have
something fun to start with. I talked to Tudor Maester and
Thomas Trolite on, on, on previous episodes of the podcast
and they both shared that they thought it was really nice that
there's like this new wave of people doing podcasts and
educational content, right? Because with every cycle of
Bitcoin, it's basically like people adopt Bitcoin.
Some people drop off when the price drops, right?
And then some people stay and they get invited, you know, to
contribute to Bitcoin and, you know, in, in whatever way.
We both decided to start a podcast and they share that, you
know, they kind of see that like new wave of people start to
contribute and share their knowledge or or talk to people
like on a podcast. And that in that also like
reaches again, new people that then get to study Bitcoin and
adopt it etcetera and and so on. And yeah, I wanted to, I wanted
to ask you like how, how do you experience that?
Like what type of reactions do you get on YouTube or in real
life? What?
What do people think of your effort?
Yeah. I mean, I, you know, I, I always
love going to the conferences and kind of meeting Bitcoiners
in person because, you know, it's great.
You know, I get some people that that will recognize me, but you
know, I've been going to a lot of these conferences for a few
years now. So it's kind of like a lot of
the same familiar faces, but I mean, which is outstanding.
But I do always see and meet new people who are getting involved
into this space every single conference, every single year
and everything like that. So it just seems to be, yeah, an
ever changing landscape and it keeps developing.
So, you know, I think there's a lot of great things going on in
the Bitcoin space and it's just, you know, how can you not be
bullish with everything that's going on?
I know that price action is kind of wobbly.
Maybe we can get into that a little bit, but, you know, I
think from everything, it's just more and more companies popping
up, more and more great things popping up.
And I mean, we had Trump RFK, like presidential candidates for
the US at the last Bitcoin conference in Nashville and big
people going to Amsterdam, speaking there.
You know, I mean, all these great things.
And it's just, yeah, I mean, it's incredible to see.
I didn't think we would be where we're at right now when I first
got into it. So I don't know how you you're
feeling about all this, but yeah, man, it's absolutely
crazy. And it's truly humbling to see,
you know, people recognize me from from my work and
everything. Yeah, I, I always call that like
the magic of the Internet, right?
Like you, we sit down right now, we just have a conversation, we
have fun for an hour and then, you know, we just share it on
the Internet and you kind of never know who who it reaches,
right? I Even so, so last weekend when
this week when I was in at the Amsterdam conference, I had a
woman come up to me and say like, oh, I want to thank you
for your work. And I listened to all the
podcasts and I was like, wow, that's so crazy.
You know, like that. Yeah, you can have an impact
with the way you think, right? And I think that's also the
goal, at least for me, with the podcast, like just create so
many touch points that, you know, slowly but surely people
will be like, huh, I never thought about it like that.
Maybe I should get into it. Right.
And I think that's the power of, of doing content like this.
And, and it's really fun to see that, you know, behind the
comments or behind the messages, there's real people just as we
were there at one point watching, you know, maybe some
of the more Ogs in, in, in the Bitcoin content space and having
the same experience. So I think it's really, yeah,
it's really, I'm really grateful to experience that.
Like, doesn't matter where my podcast goes for me, it's
personally already a success when I see those people, you
know? Yeah.
And like, you never know, like, how content is going to touch
somebody or like, affect somebody, right?
I mean, like, you know, you and I can interview the same guest,
but you know, they could word it a little bit differently in your
podcast or in mine and you know, it just kind of resonates with
somebody or, you know, maybe, you know, I got, I got those,
uh, Americans that like to watch me because I'm American.
Maybe somebody likes to watch you because you're European.
You know, you, you never really know, man.
It could be the blonde hair, it could be the swoop dude.
Somebody likes your hairstyle and that's why that's why
they're tuning into you. Who knows, man.
So you know, all these little things.
I think just, you know, more content, the better you know
it's going to reach somebody some way, some, some way shape
or form and and bring them to Bitcoin, which is the ultimate
goal. So how did you get started?
When was your like your your calling like OK, I'm going to
contribute to to this thing. Yeah, so I guess it it all kind
of aligns with like my orange pill story somewhat.
So I I ran track in college, you know, big time former athlete.
Just kidding, you know, I was not not too shabby.
But anyway, Long story short, I had a a lot of teammates that
were a class above me, so they all graduated.
We kept a group message. We went to grad schools all over
the country. Why this is important is because
while I was in grad school, I was like, we're all going to
start making money S we need to figure out what to do with that
money. SI was doing a dive into
personal finance and I started, you know, researching all this
stuff. So I, you know, would tell them
all about it. Hey, guys, look into this, this
this Bitcoin and fell on deaf ears, except for one of my
friends. He told me to kind of get into
our, he kept asking me questions.
So eventually COVID broke out and I was like, why don't we
just learn out loud? We started the Twitter account
and, and A blog sub Stack started writing first actually.
And so I got into that and yeah, started that like April 21.
So I've been doing it for a little bit.
And then then he got a job in the Bitcoin space and decided to
quit doing the content, kind of a push from his employer at the
time. And yeah, from there, he's like,
you know, you're good behind the camera.
Why don't you start, you know, doing a podcast?
And we built up, you know, a couple thousand Twitter
followers at that time. So I was like, all right, you
know, I'll just start reaching out.
And yeah, the people in the Bitcoin space were pretty
receptive. And so it's actually turned out
to to be an experience. I didn't think that would lead
me to, to this. So yeah, a lot of crazy things,
but what about you, man? What's your Orange Bill story?
How did you get started in the podcast phase?
Well, the, the podcast was really came from like a period
of, I think like 3-4 weeks last year when I had some
conversations with some millennial friends from some of
my podcast is called Bitcoin for millennials.
And I, I think of them as smart and entrepreneurial, etcetera.
And, but when we talk about Bitcoin or the, OR the, OR the
problem rather, you know, the reason of existence with
Bitcoin, that the fact that the money is broken and that it
steals time and energy from you after you expended that time and
energy already and after you got your monetary reward for the
value that, that you added. I also felt kind of like on that
also fell on, on death air, you know, like it's people think
it's just a nuisance or they think it's too difficult to
understand. For example, I have one friend
who made quite a lot of money by setting his company.
And I, I asked him like, Hey, you know, if you want to get
100K from the bank or 200K in cash, how do you think that's
going to go? And then he said, yeah, I don't
know, maybe they don't have it, but yeah, that will take a few
days or something and then I'll get it.
And I was already ultra triggered sitting next to him in
the car being like, but OK, if you spend like 7 years building
a company, right? And someone buys your company
and you get rewarded for that, the moment you put it in the
bank, it's literally not yours anymore, right?
Because when you call the bank and say like, wow, 100K in cash,
I have way more than that in your bank, right?
And well, you get a person or on the phone who goes through a
checklist, OK, Oh, that's above the, the maximum threshold,
right? Well, the first question, what
are you going to use it for? When do you need it, blah, blah,
blah. And so I tried to explain to him
like that for me, the mechanism that I have in my head is that
it is not yours anymore. Even if you would want it, you
know, even on the contract that says, you know, this is this and
this person's account at our bank, you know, it is not your,
your property anymore. And it's interesting because I
learned the word property from English and I, there's not
really a good word in my language.
So like property and ownership are two different things
basically, right? You can own something on paper,
but you might not hold it as your property at this at the
same moment. And once I realized the
difference between those words, that's when I also kind of
changed my pitch towards him. Like, do you?
Yeah. So it's not it's not like do you
own it, Right. But is it your property?
So I tried to translate that for him.
And now slowly, well, eventually he, he has one Bitcoin now
basically because, you know, I just said, please one, buy one.
And if you ever think of selling, you call me and I say
no. And then, you know, you don't do
anything. So it was basically kind of a
period of of 3-4 weeks that I had like three of these
conversations where I was like, OK, you are intelligent, you're
entrepreneurial, you know me, you know my diligence, you know,
my journey in Bitcoin. And I just really want to show
you. And it just really fell on deaf
ears. And then I thought, OK, well,
how, how can I reach my millennial friends?
Basically, right. Everyone has like a young family
or they're thinking about it or they're at a certain point in
their career. That's also in the time.
By the way, I went to like the millennial subreddit.
You should go there sometime. It's so interesting.
People are so nihilistic. They don't have hope for the
future right there. There's there's topics that say
like, oh, am I doing it right? Like or where is this heading
to? Like they are doing all these
things that they they were taught to do, right?
Like go to a good school, be a good athlete, right?
Get a good job, get a house, get a mortgage, get a blah, blah,
blah, all these things. But yeah, a lot of these things
that they were taught are not even attainable for them.
So I feel that millennials really have this problem that
they don't know they have. Well, obviously we think Bitcoin
is the best solution to, you know, start building and growing
your wealth. So I wanted to focus on them and
well, so that was my fault. And then in the in the same
weeks, I had like two or three calls like this where I talked
with other bitcoiners I knew from Twitter.
And at the end we were like, could have been nice that we
recorded this and there's shared it with others.
And then I thought, well, 1 + 1 is 2.
Maybe I should start a podcast. No experience in making a
podcast or figuring out like sound and and the tech and
YouTube and all that stuff. But yeah, I like being a
practitioner. So I thought, OK, maybe a nice
challenge. So I gave myself one goal, which
is making 100 episodes. That's the kind of like the Mr.
Beast strategy. He says make 100 videos of
whatever you want and then you figure out if it's any good and
if you like it, etcetera. So that's kind of how I started
with with the podcast. And yeah, my Orange Bill story
is lots of different touch points over the past 10 years.
I always say, like I bought at 400, I sold everything at 4000.
Now I have less than than before.
I did the shit coins, I did the Icos, the NFTS, all these
things. So yeah, it it, it's a slow
journey with a lot of touch points.
And eventually I realized that the money is very broken.
It's not yours when it's in the bank.
You know, the number in your banking app is a number in a
centralized database that the Russians know where it is so
they can bomb it and then the money is gone basically.
That's not my pitch, right? Bitcoin is, is verifiable, open,
transparent, trustless. So like all all these properties
that, that we know. And slowly but surely I just
moved there with my mind and challenging what I thought was
true, what I saw technologically in crypto and all these things
that it's all nonsense and we should all focus on on Bitcoin
because it's the money for everyone.
So that's a quick summary of of 10 years.
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Yeah. Yeah, I mean, you know, I think
on that, right? I mean, you're, you're kind of
talking about the the millennials and, and how that
resonated with them. And I and I always think, you
know, back to like a lot of my friends who still haven't found
Bitcoin, a lot of them will bring to me some random penny
stock or something like that because they're always trying to
hit a big or that this stock is going to be the the next booming
next Bitcoin. You know, it's the Bitcoin in
2015. That's what I I hear that Nomur
so many times. But you know, it's interesting
because they all all got to try to analyze, do all these
different things, you know, try to be basically become stock
traders or, you know, like hedge fund managers of their own
personal hedge fund on top of their.
Battling real hedge fund managers, right?
Yeah, that's the point and. They got to do it with less
money and on top of their nine to five job.
So I mean, with all that too, I think it's a it's, it's like
it's really tough for for the millennial generation just
because of all the inflation that, you know, we've
experienced through these years, man.
So yeah, I truly resonate with that.
And I think that's why I was, I was trying to shout the message
similar to you to my friends. I'm like, guys, you don't see
this. Like what do you, what are you
looking at, you know? Yeah.
Well, what you said I think is one of my biggest.
I want to say like key points to understanding, right?
Like, and I think Peter Dunworth, I don't know if you
know him, he's he's from Australia.
He, he kind of taught me this. So he's like a professional
asset manager, right? A risk manager for high net
worth individuals. This is literally his job is to
manage money and, and grow the wealth of people.
And he told me everything is risk, right?
The just being born is risk. Entire life is risk.
And so whatever you do with your job or your venture is risk,
right? So you leave your family, that's
also risk. So you go out there and you and
you and you do things during the day trying to add value and you
get a reward, you come home. And then because the reward that
you get is so broken, you have to take more risk to mitigate
the debasement of this money, right, as you said.
And so people think they should become investors and research
all this stuff, but they are battling people like Peter that
do that thing the entire day. And there's even companies that,
you know, like these, these flow trader type companies that shoot
up their own satellites so they have faster Internet to trade
faster in in this stock investing game.
And then you're like in your attic with your little laptop,
you know, trying to beat these professional people.
It's yeah, I don't know, like if it's fun, totally do it, right.
But if you want to spend time with your family, but you're
forced to become this investor guy and join all these trading
groups and figure out all the penny stocks, you know, that's
not the best way to, to spend your time.
And once you realise that, I think then your mind can kind of
open to, OK, is there an asset that I can store my economic
energy in that doesn't require me to go out there and, and you
know, after my job and gather more information and take risk
and trade and blah, blah, blah. And Oh yeah, I, I think that's
Bitcoin. Bitcoin makes me sleep better.
I don't know about you, but that I, I don't trade anything.
I don't do stocks, nothing, nothing of that.
No, I just try to add value, earn money and any any excess
money I save in Bitcoin. Yeah, 100% and I, and I think
that that's going to be a way that a way that that's people
start to come in here pretty soon, you know, for better or
for worse, the number go up is, is always going to be the the
big driver here, right? So, you know, I, I definitely
think we're in a, in a period of a lot of inflation and I think
that that's going to bring more people into Bitcoin similar to
like what we saw in the 2020 times, right?
I mean, we saw it shoot from 4K to 69 K during that time with
massive amounts of money printing.
I'm under the belief that that's probably going to come here
again soon. So that'll bring more people in.
I mean, you know, more and more things, whether it's the ETFs,
you know, Bhutan mining Bitcoin El Salvador getting involved
with it, like all these countries, companies putting
Bitcoin on their balance sheet. I think all these touch points
are, you know, great for people, but once they start to see the,
the number go up, that'll bring more people in and you know, by
then it, it might be too late. And I think like, you know, all
the, all the FOMO that we're seeing, uh, FOMO money that
we're seeing on the sidelines this cycle makes it really
different. But I think that that's going to
bring in a lot more people just because there's more money in it
and there's more, which means more eyeballs on it, too.
Yeah, I think so. I always fought, you know, five
years ago or something. I thought, if we ever break, OK,
that's going to melt the Internet, right?
Like people are going to be like, Oh my God, this does this
thing still exist? You know, and now it's OK.
This magic Internet coin is 100K right now.
I'm not that sure to be honest. I so you know, so I went to the
conference this week. There were some like mainstream
kind of media channels and some more mainstream like YouTube
media channels that that made like little reports on it.
And if I see the current comments like comments right
now, it's all like these people are crazy.
They are sheep. They can't think for themselves
like those are comments on on YouTube, right?
So I, I personally agree or hope that it's true what you just
said, But if I look at those comments, I'm not that I'm not
that sure, but it's also that way.
Like I, I, I love the psychological, philosophical,
spiritual dimensions of Bitcoin because eventually, you know,
you cannot orange peel someone else as you just said, like that
you were talking to your friends and you want them to see it and
you're annoyed, you know, and like I said, like I was in the
car and I was triggered because I love my friend and I wanted to
understand it, right? Like you cannot orange bill
another person. This other person has to get to
a point where they realize, I never thought about what money
is, but it's always worked for me, right?
What? But what, what is it?
Why do I think it's OK if there are, there's an external group
of people or an external factor that influences the value of
this money that I spent my time and energy on.
And they think it should be devalued with at least at least
2% a year. But in reality, it's more, you
know, like, yeah, this is probably like question #10 but I
mean, like, that's kind of the path that you go on, right?
Like someone has to get to a point where they realize either
rationally, you know, they, they, they read a piece of
information and they're like, that's strange.
Or more like from an ego perspective, like, why are these
people doing better in life? Why are they happier?
Why am I so? Insecure about the future, why
are so many smart people talking about this Bitcoin thing or, you
know, like so when we talked about these different touch
points, that's why we need to never stop talking about Bitcoin
even when it's a logical for us, right.
We have to create all these touch points where people get
triggered in some way to then realize what do I actually know?
And then hopefully have enough courage to challenge, you know,
their their faults or beliefs that that they had that they
never really questions or thought about.
Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's all about
just like breaking the mold, right?
Breaking down, you know what they yeah, I mean that their
belief system, right, like kind of undoing the traditional
education system, just going from there.
But yeah, I mean, like the 100K mark will 100% break, break the
Internet, dude. I mean, I think it's just a
mental barrier from like everything that I'm hearing a
lot of people. And you know, yeah, I I think
it's like it's, it's like the Peter Schiff meme too.
It's like the old man yelling at clouds, right?
I mean, he's just going to keep yelling at things until yelling
at the price action until like he just maybe eventually buys.
I don't know. I don't know if I feel like
maybe he's too far gone at this point, but he's going to be
yelling at Bitcoin crashing to 100K at some point in time in
the near future. But I mean, I truly believe like
this cycle, it's going to really ramp some things up and like
with more people that come into the Bitcoin space, the next new
class of Bitcoiners is always going to be bigger.
But a big, you know, driver of that, like I said, is price.
So I don't know man, I, I, I do see that 100K mark coming here
soon. I actually made a bet and Julian
of Kinetic Finance that Bitcoin needs to hit 100K by the end of
the year or else I got to eat 2 Carolina Reaper Peppers.
And if, if he, if he or if it hits 100K, then he's got to do
the same. So I don't know man, my spice
tolerance isn't that great. So I'm hoping that that it does.
I still stand by it, man. We got we got some time here.
Well, I think yeah. So again, like, I'm not sure if
the 100K will melt the Internet as I, as I always thought, I
think if we would get the 202 hundred 50K that it would be
ridiculous if that would not break the Internet, right?
But again, I'm, I'm not, I'm not that sure people are very stuck
in, in, in their beliefs. But for example, what Julian is
doing, you know, he has a big following on, on TikTok.
I think he, he does really well at, you know, playing into the
current way people gather information, you know, playing
around with this, you know, all the TikTok styles and, and very
clear messaging. And so I think that's very cool.
And I think he also like reaches another type of, of audience
with that. But I mean, the price will have
to go up because the, the governments have to print money.
You know, like it's what, what Greg Falls always said.
It says it's just math. And I think that was also for me
one of these moments where I just realized, OK, 35 trillion
or 30 trillion, you know, when when I thought about that, like,
it's only two years ago, right? Like, who's going to pay that
back? Who believes that they're going
to pay that back, right? And you have like these classic
economists that say, like, well, debt is a good thing because
it's backed by the promise of the people that the borrowers
will pay it back. Like that's the stupidest one of
the stupidest things I've ever heard.
Like if you believe in that, but it seems like a lot of central
banks are still buying, you know, U.S.
Treasuries. A lot of big companies are still
buying U.S. Treasuries.
You know, they are playing the short term game.
I don't know what the percentages are right now, but
there was this moment where, you know, the short term got more
gave you more than than the long term.
Of course, people try to play that game.
And then, you know, the US government says, you know, this
is this is all great, but over a long enough time frame, you
know, that they will never be able to to pay that back.
And there's going to be a point where, again, it's a rational
fault, but I don't know if people will follow that.
But, you know, enough people will realize that they will
never pay back that debt. And they will stop buying these
treasuries in such a significant way that the US government,
government's only solution is to print money.
And that will, you know, accelerate this debt spiral that
James Lavish talks about a lot. And so eventually, it's just
math. And I think for the people that
are studying Bitcoin or that already get Bitcoin and trying
to save in Bitcoin, it's all about finding, how do you say,
like these anchor points to keep trusting yourself?
This may take another 10 years before we really, really have
this mass adoption and, you know, big treasury problems and
all the things that that we talk about.
And so I kind of see it as this this journey where you're
constantly questioning, you know, can I trust myself?
Can I still trust myself? Is my understanding big enough
that I can trust myself? And what I like about Bitcoin is
that. Yeah, you can verify that for
yourself. Every time I think this, every
time I think this, I just think, like, is Bitcoin still
decentralized and secure? If yes, then, you know, I tell
the voice if I had to shut up. And, you know, I think that's
the test. And that's why it's also so
psychological and spiritual at the same time, you know, like
it's also a discovery inside yourself, of yourself.
Yeah, I mean, I think it's just that, you know, one it just like
it's kind of almost like a pride thing, right.
You got to be able to say like, all right, I'm not a know it
all. Maybe the things I was taught
previously are wrong and it gives you like that that
critical thinking skills. So, you know, I don't know if
everybody like I'll, I don't know if everybody like is really
I guess enjoys learning. And I think a big part of that
is just the school system and kind of how they structure it
and beat it out of you over years where people just finally
think like, all right, I got to the end of the road.
I got my high school diploma, college degree, whatever it is,
and they think that the learning is done from there.
So I think it takes somebody who a special kind of person to get
to Bitcoin early one not be like really forced to do it.
But I think unfortunately, the way things are going, more and
more people are going to be forced to look at their
finances, forced to really budget out things and forced to
really just try to focus on money.
And you know, unfortunately that that doesn't lead to a good
quality of life. You know, the biggest driver of
divorce is, is generally money. So you know, there's there's a
lot of things that it affects. And I think everybody has that
gets into the Bitcoin space, then realizes all the things
that inflation has just negatively affected, whether
it's food, pharmaceutical, drugs, you know, even just
relationships in general, just the way people behave, you know,
seeing the decline in birth rates overtime, like all these
things are just drastically connected.
And, you know, the best thing you could do is just like
equipped yourself with this knowledge and figure out a way
to live the life that you, you know, actually want to live.
But unfortunately, a lot of people don't do that until it's
too late. And then you know, they live
with with some regret. Yeah, but how do you, how do you
see that around you? For example, I, I think it's
fascinating that there's a lot of these like Tik Toks or
Instagram Reels where people are like, you know, I have two
master's degrees and they show them right?
And I applied to like 100 jobs. They all said no.
So now I'm rolling sushi somewhere, you know, and they
are just questioning like, did I do the right thing?
What is this worth? I'm 100K.
It's student depth and all these things like how, how do you see
that around you? Well, I mean, that's a great
question. You know, like around me, I see
like less and less friends getting like married until like
later waiting for that. Just in general, like it's it's
interesting because I live in Florida.
So, you know, in Florida, I would say most people are, I
guess how big corners would say is, are fairly based, right?
I mean, they realize, you know, you got to workout, get some
sun, you gotta, you know, eat food or eat the right food.
There's like, I know a lot of people that are super anti seed
oils and are very much not into Bitcoin, but are like kind of,
you know, tangentially, you know, aware of Bitcoin because
of like all these things. So I see more and more people
waking up to that fact. But I mean, on the flip side of
things too, like it's the culture in Florida.
I don't know if it's necessarily like get wiped up or get married
really young and, and sort of, you know, I guess like start a
family and everything like that. So a lot of my friends that I've
made there are definitely talking about waiting till later
in life to do that, maybe not even starting to have kids until
they're 30. You know, I think that that's
just the delay. And you know, I mean, my parents
didn't or had me when they were 30, but I was the second kid,
you know, so like a lot of differences in in that way.
But on the flip side of things like I grew up in in the South,
in the United States. So in the South, it is like a
very traditional kind of kind of way.
So a lot of friends from high school or friends from college
are already married with kids too.
So I'm seeing it like kind of on both sides of things.
But you know, it's interesting. A lot of them are, you know,
still doing that. Their husband and, you know, the
wife are, you know, still doing the nine to five grind.
Both of them are working the kids going to daycare
immediately, as soon as the as soon as possible, you know, sort
of thing. So, you know, I think it's, it's
just like a different way of life than maybe our parents had
to go through. And I think, you know, I think
it's not really a net positive unfortunately for the way things
are going. Yeah, yeah, it's interesting.
I again, you know, as someone from Europe, I'm looking at it
from from from a distance, of course, like through these tik
Toks and and stuff. But yeah, if you see these
stats, for example, like credit card delinquencies or defaults
are at all time, all time high, like COVID savings are gone and,
and all these things. I mean, I even have it here in
my country like in the weekend, all the terraces and all the
restaurants are full. And we've also had three to 5%
inflation for, I don't know, last two years or since COVID.
So, yeah, or everyone is secretly eating ramen or I don't
know how they do it or all the savings are gone or something.
But yeah, as I said before, I, I think that it will take some
time before it really goes bad. But then, you know, from, from
what I understand from people that I listen to that that are
like, really like, like have, have a, have a good financial
background and they do the, the analysis.
They say like, you know, it, this is inevitable.
It will, it will happen at some point.
And yeah, it's kind of like we are on the on the Titanic, but
not sure if we have hit the iceberg yet, you know?
Yeah, I mean, like, James Lavish puts it great.
We're on this debt spiral. I mean, like, you know, if you
go on the US debt clock on that website and you look at the
amount of debt that the US is getting into, you'll get
nauseous just watching those numbers go up like crazy.
And I'm chuckling and laughing at that, but it's not really a
laughing matter, right? I mean, it's like, how are we
going to get out of this? We're essentially putting debt
on more debt on more debt, and we're just borrowing from the
future. And we're like, hey, you know,
whatever gin, whatever it is now that's in college, you guys are
going to have to go out. You're going to have to make 60
grand a year. And you know, people 5-10 years
ago, we're making 60 grand a year.
That 60 grand is probably worth half as much as it was, you
know, before. You're going to have to have 7
roommates and a giant house or live at your parents house for a
lot longer and not really grow up.
I mean, like, you know, it's a, it's a lot of things that are,
are like, you know, limiting factors and it just, you know,
doesn't really let young people live, live their life that they
want to live. And, you know, and then that
hurts the future of America from companies and, and everything
else as well. So it's just like a trickle down
effect where it's not really helping the young generation
create these prosperous companies.
So I, I mean, it's making it harder on the entrepreneur, you
know, to kind of get, get companies started and everything
like that. So it's definitely an uphill
battle and it's not built for everybody, but I think that, you
know, the the inflationary factors are definitely making it
harder to be an entrepreneur and, and go through that cycle.
Yeah, I am. I I love the looking at.
I don't love it. I think it's just very
interesting when you look at this use debt clock, right?
I saw a stat that I think it was like 30% of GDP is now used to
pay off. I don't know if 30 is right, but
it's between 20 and 30 or thirtyish of the income tax
revenue is used to pay off the interest on the debt, right?
So as an American, you work, if you work full time, you work one
maybe almost two days a week to help your government pay the
interest on money they borrowed and used on whatever before you
were probably born, right? That is so insane.
It's so insane. That father is so insane.
And when you look at this U.S. debt clock, when it says like
the national debt is well 45600, you know, .6 trillion, it says
debt per citizen, $105,000. So for every citizen, there's
already already $105,000 borrowed from the future spent
on something that is basically, yeah, it's it's just gone and
you have to work for that to help your government pay that
back. But that, and that is per
citizen, that includes the babies, right?
But per taxpayer, it's 271,000. What do you think the average
salary is in the US? Good question, I think it's
around probably like 30-5 ish or something.
Double. It's like 6.
It's 63. But you know, the average U.S.
debt for a current taxpayer is like 3 1/2 times or through
maybe a little less, but a little over three times the
amount of the average salary in the US.
So it's absolutely insane. And that debt is just going to
keep exponentially growing. And believe it or not, wages are
not going to be exponentially growing at that pace, right?
I mean, even if inflation was at 2 or 3%, right, and you get the
two or three percent raise, I mean, you know, at this point in
time we're just the, the salaries are just too far behind
the debt, so. Yeah, but what's the general
income tax? What's the average income tax?
Well, it's different from state to state.
So I mean, like, you know, you pay like 30%.
I mean, it really depends. I think.
I think it's like 20 to 30% on income tax.
And then you could have state income tax, you know, you have
sales tax. I mean, we get taxed up to our
eyes out here. Anytime you move money around
it, there's a there's a tax. And, you know, I mean, I know
it's a lot worse in in Europe and in some other countries as
well. But I mean, you got to think
like at, you know, when America was over its existence, they
were throwing tea in the harbor over, you know, I think it was
like a one or 3% tax at that point in time.
But now we're like, OK, you know, 40%, that's fine.
Yeah, but you said, you know that per taxpayer, I'm I'm
looking at it too, 271,002. 171, yeah.
Yeah, yeah. But, but so it's, it's, it's if
you take an average salary of 60K, right, and you get taxed,
let's say effectively 50%. So 30K goes to the government.
That's like 9-9 years of the average person paying taxes to
pay off or to help their government pay off the the debt
that they took on for that taxpayer.
But that would assume that in those nine years that debt would
not grow, right? This this debt spiral concept
from James Lavish actually says, you know, the debt per taxpayer
will grow because the US has to raise more debt to sustain the
old debt, right? Like so paying old credit card
with a new credit card, but let's say nine years, right?
So if you were 17, I don't know when you turn a taxpayer in, in,
in, in in America or when you start working, right?
Like your first job when you're younger, maybe when you're 16,
from 16 to 25, you know, let's make it simplistic.
You're working to pay tax to help your government, you know,
pay, pay that interest, just the interest, by the way, or well,
it's a, it's a debt, right? So you're paying 9 or you're
working nine years of your life to help your government pay off
the debt that they took on on, you know, not in your name, but
on you as as a taxpayer, Right. And so with that money that you
pay your government, nothing of quality will be created, right?
Like nothing that that will not be spent on, you know what
people argue a lot when they say like that's on roads or
infrastructure or blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
No, it's just to pay off the debt.
Yeah, that's wild. Yeah, it's absolutely insane.
I mean, like, like I said, like we've been to, you know, kind of
going through, it's just like it's it's a never ending cycle.
So what is the way out here, right?
I mean, you look at El Salvador, it's the first country to not
put debt on their budget for next year's budget.
So I think, you know, obviously adapting, adopting Bitcoin has
really helped through that movement.
Obviously there's been a lot of growth in El Salvador as well,
including, you know, a lot of the roads over everything like
that popping up seemingly. I wonder why, You know, I mean,
a lot of people, a lot of tourists are starting to go to
El Salvador as well. I mean, there's a lot of things
that, you know, obviously it's a, it's a much smaller scale
than something as grand as the US and you know, the US dollar
and everything like that. But I think it's a good model
that other countries should start like really implementing
their, you know, really start to go into, you know that I mean,
even even on like a company level, right?
You look at Michael Saylor, the things that he's been able to do
at micro strategy, it just makes sense to hold Bitcoin on the
balance sheet to help pay off the debt.
And I mean, even use traditional financial tools to buy up more
Bitcoin, You know, has been something that he's been doing
and it's been, you know, brilliant and it's helped out
his company go from essentially a zombie company to one of the
the best performing stocks and the the best performing stock in
the S&P 500 just depending on the day.
So, you know, I think it's absolutely like it's a no
brainer and people have lined out the playbook for you.
You just have to implement it at this point in time, no matter
what scale you're at, whether it's a country, business or
personally. I think that's an interesting
point, right? If people that have if people
that experience this debasement of money problem, if they
experience it worse than you because they have more money and
they choose to adopt Bitcoin to save themselves from this
melting ice cube, then. You know, if you have less than
$500 million, like when Michael Saylor started, you should be
paying attention to Bitcoin because if he has that problem,
you have that problem as well, right?
Unless you have no money. I get these messages sometimes,
right? Like, I don't have a lot of
money. I don't have any excess savings,
right? Like, how should I get into
Bitcoin? And I just always say like that,
Obviously that's rough. And once you realize that
Bitcoin is the best way to store wealth, it also invites you to,
you know, do your best, like really work hard, figure out how
do I provide value in a better way?
I think than, you know, and some people want to agree, you know,
but taking a stupid corporate job that maybe pays you 100 KA
year but where you're bored as fuck and you don't like it, you
know, and, and and and that you dread to go to every they
eventually it is way nicer to do something hard and become good
at something, whatever that is, right?
It doesn't have to be like a fancy, something fancier that
other people think is fancy, but just be good at it.
And if you're good enough, then you can make money with it, you
know, and if you make money with it and get your life in order,
then eventually you can store everything that's left in in in
Bitcoin. But yeah, well, Michael Saylor
had a $500 million problem and he decided to get into into
Bitcoin, right? So why would the average person
not not do that? Yeah.
Yeah, I mean 100%. And it just like, yeah, I mean,
I don't know. I've had this argument with one
of my friends here. He's like, well, if he's a 500
millionaire, half a billionaire or whatever, or close to a
billionaire, he's still going to be that with or without Bitcoin,
whether it tanks or it's or it's up.
So like, why listen to them? And I'm like, what do you mean?
These kids? These are the guys that get to
this point, you know, with their money strategy and everything
like that. So these are the people you
should be listening to, not some Joe Schmo who's living in an
apartment, you know, by himself with a just like a dog and just,
you know, kind of going through it that way.
Like you should listen to the people who have made it and
they'll give you the advice if you just listen.
You just gotta listen and not think that they're trying to
bullshit you. Like, what incentive did they
have for you to buy Bitcoin? It's not like you're going to
buy so much that it moves their bags.
I mean, I mean, I don't think I'm going to be affecting
Michael Saylor's bags that much, you know, by buying Bitcoin.
And so, you know, I just never really understood that.
Yeah, I had AI searched on Twitter for my my Twitter name
Bromke and then uncle, because I use this a lot, right.
I quote tweeted the tweet that said, you know, was a Texas
professor presents that Bitcoin is the first time in history of
humankind where we see the value of scarcity illustrated.
And then, you know, I quote posted saying, but the economy
guy on the TV says it's a Ponzi. My uncle lost money on a doggy
coin. So how can this be a thing?
You know, like that's how people think.
And and last week when Najib Ukela, El Salvador was meeting
this the vice president of Argentina, you know, I say, like
country leaders are discussing Bitcoin together while you were
not paying attention because you're drunk.
Uncle says it's to the pond. This is really, I hear these
arguments all the time. Yeah, but my uncle and he lost
this FTX thing and blah, blah. Like, you know, I eventually, if
you drill it down, it's basically start thinking for
yourself. Don't listen to other people,
don't trust what we say. Just think like, OK, these guys
are really into this Bitcoin thing.
Should I pay attention or not? If not, you know, all good.
And if you want to pay attention, I think you can DM
either of us if you have questions or or need help or
whatever, right? But it's up to you as the
individual to be like, OK, I'm going to think for myself.
And if you hear us talk and you dismiss it and think like, oh,
these guys are crazy. They only talk about Bitcoin
because they have Bitcoin. Think about the fact I always
use this like it would be very weird if we would talk about
Bitcoin and not on Bitcoin. Like that would be way worse
than, you know, actually putting our money where our mouth is.
Yeah, 100%, man. I mean, yeah, I just, you know,
I tell my friends all, all about it just because, you know,
that's the, I mean, I'm trying to help them out and I want, I
want just just them to prosper as well as as much.
So I mean, it's just, it's always interesting.
They always think I'm just like full of it sometimes.
So I mean, I don't even, sometimes I don't even have a
conversation with them. But I mean, whoever wants to
talk to me about it, I'm always open.
All right, maybe a fun question to end and I'll answer to what
what, what makes you most bullish on Bitcoin like for the
next decade? The next decade, All right,
That's a long time I. Don't know short than long time,
short than long time. Yeah, it's true.
I mean, I think that, you know, you're just seeing like a lot of
traction, just more eyeballs and more tools on it, right?
So although I don't recommend buying the ETFs, I think the
ETFs in the United States developing, getting traditional
finance into it is absolutely huge.
It allows companies to now put it on their balance sheet and be
a little bit more balanced. I know obviously Michael Saylor
did that, but we saw four companies start to pop up and do
that as well, at least publicly traded ones.
So we'll see, we'll see more like, you know, company like
Fold is, is becoming public. They've already got Bitcoin on
their balance sheet. So, you know, a lot of these
publicly traded companies are going to now be holding Bitcoin.
You're going to see the ones that that implement the strategy
start to, you know, really prosper and then countries as
well. So I mean, I think it's just a
combination of traditional finance.
The business is holding it on the balance sheet and you know,
now countries, uh, getting into a Bitcoin standard, whether
that's holding it in the treasury, strategic reserve,
what have you. I think that, you know, I mean,
at that point in time, it's only going to be, you know, off to
the races here. I mean, we've seen, you know,
gold is like a, you know, a perfect example, something
that's almost like a leading indicator, I would say, for
what, what Bitcoin is going to do, except for, you know, gold
is, is not quite as as quickly moving.
But you know, we've seen a net outflow in the ETFs and the gold
ETFs for the past, you know, three to four years.
And we've seen the gold price nearly double, if not more in
the past five. Now, why is that?
It's because central banks are are buying up gold.
So they're realizing the, the true like scarcity aspect.
And I think, you know, the ETFs are a one step for everybody to
start to get to OK, I need real Bitcoin.
I need to hold my own keys. I need to be self sovereign.
And I think, you know, all these touch points that are happening
now in 10 years down the road, that's where we'll see people
truly understand the power of Bitcoin.
And yeah, we were just, we were just beating them, man.
We were just before them. So.
But yeah, I'd love to hear your reason why you're bullish for
these next this next decade. Yeah, so, so I think short term
as you said before, you know number number goes up is
probably the main thing. So if it's not 100K, then AT200K
people will really wake up and buy more.
I have episode coming out with Jeff Ross who's like, yeah, it's
going to be 500 KQ 42025, if not 700 to a million.
And I'm like, you know, I cannot do the analysis that would
substantiate that, but I would be good with that.
I mean, if you if it really goes that high within 12 months,
yeah, then it's undeniable anymore.
And then I think we we we could get into this accelerated game
theory where countries will be buying.
I think some people argue, you know, the higher the price that
actually the more interesting it gets for countries to get in
because then, you know, they see it's a, it's a serious asset
class. So that makes me bullish because
I think we will end higher. I'm, I'm personally more around
the 200K type mark. We'll see, but something will
happen. I mean, these are the cycles of
Bitcoin and the, the problem is being becoming more and more
obvious to more and more people, companies and countries.
It will go up. And I think over the long term,
I like what Michael Saylor says about, you know, in 20-30,
three, 99% of Bitcoin will be mined.
The last 1% will be mined over the next 107 years.
So that's basically a rounding error, that last 1%.
And yeah, you know, all the Bitcoin basically will be mined
in 2033. And if you're not, if you're now
remotely paying attention as a country, an organization or a
person, you will have to start paying attention at least within
the next, you know, nine years or else it is really too late.
So there will be, I think, kind of this inflection point where
like interest meets the absolute digital scarcity and that will
really propel bit going forward. So yeah, I follow kind of this
digital gold rush thesis, but yeah, so that makes me most
bullish. Yeah, 100%, man.
I mean, yeah, I mean, I, I'm still holding on to that 100K
before the end of the year. But yeah, man, I, you know, I
think at this point in time, we're starting to let the foot
off the gas here with the interest rate hikes.
And we're going to see, you know, maybe some more liquidity
in the market. And you know, after that we'll
start to see some more money printing because I think, you
know, everything is not all Peaches and daisies under the
surface. So you know that massive amounts
of money printing, we saw Bitcoin go from 4:00 to let's
call it 70,000, which is about 17 1/2 X.
You know, I mean maybe we 17 1/2 X from from what was it like 20
K this time, so. On the flip side of things like
maybe that 20 K wasn't the low, maybe the low because we've been
floating around this 60K mark, maybe that's the low and then
it's 17 1/2 X says that is is 1,000,050.
So you never know. I wouldn't be surprised if we
end up in somewhere in this range in the next 12 months and
shit just goes bonkers and where that Bitcoin mean with the guys
just riding up the roller coaster straight up.
Yeah well I like the what you just said like it just goes up.
Fuck, I forgot the meme, but anyway, you know, like that,
that's also why I remember what I want to say, but that's why I
love Bitcoin. Like the memes are manifested
right and and we'll see that what you just said.
That's why I think Bitcoin is so entertaining.
You know, we are in it. We are trying to learn still
everyday we're trying to share with other people and whatever
happens, happens. But for me, it's just really
entertaining and really fun and enjoyable to watch.
So yeah, super fun to chat. Maybe we should do this again in
the future. There was a nice unprepared jam
and yeah man, I'll point people to to your channel to check out
your stuff and I think it's really cool that we are doing
this together. So thanks man.
Yeah, 100% man. Yeah, Thanks for having me on
the show and thanks for coming on the show.
Everybody smash the subscribe button for Bitcoin.
Millennials give it a like, you know, keep spreading the word
and yeah man, keep doing what you're doing.
Maybe we'll get an in person one of these days.
We'll run into each other and at one of these conferences and
we'll do we should do that content there.
So I think that that would be a lot of fun.
Totally man. Well, enjoy your day and we'll
stay in touch all. Right man, have a good one.
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