1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:02,640 If you ask critics, they'll tell you that Bitcoin has no 2 00:00:02,640 --> 00:00:05,440 intrinsic value. Interestingly, my guest today 3 00:00:05,440 --> 00:00:08,880 actually agrees. Freddie Nu, CEO of B Huddle and 4 00:00:08,880 --> 00:00:11,760 former City of London lawyer, argues that Bitcoin isn't 5 00:00:11,760 --> 00:00:15,200 valuable because of what it is, but because of what it does. 6 00:00:15,440 --> 00:00:18,640 It tells the truth every 10 minutes in a way that no bank 7 00:00:18,640 --> 00:00:20,600 and no government can manipulate. 8 00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:24,040 From the metaphysical nature of sending an idea you can no 9 00:00:24,040 --> 00:00:27,560 longer control to EU KS massive legislative shift that 10 00:00:27,560 --> 00:00:32,080 recognizes 12 words in your head as actual legal property, this 11 00:00:32,080 --> 00:00:35,840 conversation goes deep into why Bitcoin is an accounting 12 00:00:35,840 --> 00:00:39,800 revolution and the most profound monetary discovery of our time. 13 00:00:40,040 --> 00:00:43,440 And stick around to learn why banning Bitcoin is absolutely 14 00:00:43,440 --> 00:00:45,800 absurd. If a government tried to make 15 00:00:45,800 --> 00:00:49,360 holding a private key illegal, you could turn every person in a 16 00:00:49,360 --> 00:00:52,760 room into a criminal just by shouting 12 words. 17 00:00:52,760 --> 00:00:55,240 If you're enjoying my content, it would mean a lot to me if you 18 00:00:55,240 --> 00:00:57,640 could subscribe to the channel and like my video. 19 00:00:57,840 --> 00:00:59,840 To support my journey. Thanks a lot. 20 00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:02,160 Now let's dive in to this episode. 21 00:01:04,840 --> 00:01:08,120 All right, Freddie Neu, welcome back to Bitcoin for Millennials. 22 00:01:08,120 --> 00:01:09,400 Hey, thanks so much for having me. 23 00:01:09,400 --> 00:01:13,040 Lovely to be back Graham. Yeah, I'm happy you're here. 24 00:01:13,040 --> 00:01:17,640 I think you are a great person to talk to about, you know, I'd 25 00:01:17,640 --> 00:01:20,600 say bigger picture Bitcoin thinking, but also, you know, 26 00:01:20,840 --> 00:01:23,680 from from your point of view from the UK, like what is 27 00:01:23,680 --> 00:01:27,080 happening there. So I'm excited to, to chat 28 00:01:27,080 --> 00:01:31,200 because, you know, you spent I think about like 3 years 29 00:01:31,200 --> 00:01:34,840 campaigning with the, with the Bitcoin Policy Institute. 30 00:01:34,840 --> 00:01:39,840 And yeah, I kind of wanted to do just start with, you know what, 31 00:01:39,840 --> 00:01:44,200 what is kind of the, the moment where you realize that something 32 00:01:44,200 --> 00:01:46,680 was actually happening. Like I think it's called the 33 00:01:46,680 --> 00:01:49,480 FCA, like Financial Conduct Authority, right? 34 00:01:50,880 --> 00:01:52,960 It feels like something is happening. 35 00:01:53,080 --> 00:01:55,520 And yeah, you know, I talk about this a lot. 36 00:01:55,520 --> 00:01:58,640 I'm, I'm just so interested, like fascinated about the fact 37 00:01:58,640 --> 00:02:01,920 that, you know, you would say the Bitcoin use case, you know, 38 00:02:01,920 --> 00:02:03,840 and the thesis, et cetera, is very logical. 39 00:02:03,840 --> 00:02:06,640 But you see, you know, in the, in the, in the bigger scheme of 40 00:02:06,640 --> 00:02:10,199 things and especially policy wise, things go very slowly. 41 00:02:10,479 --> 00:02:12,280 But now it seems like something is happening. 42 00:02:12,280 --> 00:02:15,240 So I thought that would be a nice point to start. 43 00:02:15,400 --> 00:02:17,200 Fantastic. And yeah, you're completely 44 00:02:17,200 --> 00:02:19,280 right. It's almost exactly 3 years of 45 00:02:19,280 --> 00:02:24,800 the day since we founded Bitcoin Policy UK and it's been quite a 46 00:02:24,800 --> 00:02:29,920 long and arduous fight. And initially it seemed hard to 47 00:02:29,920 --> 00:02:34,640 ascertain that we wouldn't make any progress, but to talk about 48 00:02:34,640 --> 00:02:36,400 it from a positive perspective for a change. 49 00:02:37,160 --> 00:02:39,160 There are a number of things that have happened in the UK 50 00:02:39,160 --> 00:02:42,440 which counter intuitively, I think may have given us some 51 00:02:42,440 --> 00:02:45,880 cause for hope. One such one I've tweeted about 52 00:02:45,880 --> 00:02:48,360 in the past. It's the fact that strangely, 53 00:02:48,360 --> 00:02:51,640 Bitcoin is now officially recognised as a form of property 54 00:02:51,640 --> 00:02:54,840 under English law. And I got very excited about 55 00:02:54,840 --> 00:02:57,920 this when this happened because you remember, I was a lawyer by 56 00:02:57,920 --> 00:03:01,080 training. And if you want to geek out over 57 00:03:01,080 --> 00:03:03,760 English property law, this is quite an interesting thing to 58 00:03:03,760 --> 00:03:07,080 geek out over that I, I won't, I won't geek out too much. 59 00:03:07,360 --> 00:03:09,880 There were two different types of property under English law. 60 00:03:09,880 --> 00:03:12,480 One was something like a contract, which is a right, 61 00:03:13,760 --> 00:03:15,560 something that you can enforce in court. 62 00:03:15,960 --> 00:03:18,920 And the other is a thing a which called a shows in possession. 63 00:03:18,920 --> 00:03:20,800 Like my pen is a shows in possession. 64 00:03:21,320 --> 00:03:24,320 And the Law Commission realised that Bitcoin doesn't really fit 65 00:03:24,320 --> 00:03:26,640 into either of those buckets. It, you know, it's not a 66 00:03:26,640 --> 00:03:28,680 liability. So it's not, it's not a contract 67 00:03:28,680 --> 00:03:31,160 or anything like that. And it's not a tangible physical 68 00:03:31,160 --> 00:03:34,560 thing. And so they helped to draft this 69 00:03:34,560 --> 00:03:38,880 very clever piece of legislation which effectively creates this 70 00:03:38,880 --> 00:03:42,360 new new third category of property, which could include 71 00:03:42,680 --> 00:03:45,560 your 12 words or your 24 words, which you hold in your head, 72 00:03:45,760 --> 00:03:47,920 which are neither a contract nor a physical thing. 73 00:03:48,200 --> 00:03:49,720 So that that's, that's fantastic. 74 00:03:50,800 --> 00:03:54,080 We took a bit of a punch of the face from the FCA when they 75 00:03:54,400 --> 00:03:57,120 classified Bitcoin as what's called a restricted mass market 76 00:03:57,120 --> 00:03:59,520 investment. We did push back very hard 77 00:03:59,520 --> 00:04:01,520 against that. The consequence of that for 78 00:04:01,520 --> 00:04:04,800 people in the UK is that if you're looking to buy Bitcoin on 79 00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:07,240 an exchange, you have to do a quiz first. 80 00:04:07,240 --> 00:04:10,320 You have to answer questions about what you're buying in some 81 00:04:10,320 --> 00:04:12,240 ways, and that's not bad. You should probably, you should 82 00:04:12,240 --> 00:04:15,880 probably do your research before you buy anything, but it created 83 00:04:15,880 --> 00:04:19,600 a lot of friction for people to buy it in the UK and also meant 84 00:04:19,600 --> 00:04:24,160 that a lot of businesses either left the UK or didn't open open 85 00:04:24,160 --> 00:04:27,280 here in the 1st place. But you mentioned some 86 00:04:27,280 --> 00:04:32,600 positives. It seems to be that the FCA shot 87 00:04:32,600 --> 00:04:35,280 their ward with that restricted mass market investment 88 00:04:35,560 --> 00:04:38,640 definition and they've been on the back foot against a lot of 89 00:04:38,640 --> 00:04:40,600 the industry advocacy since then. 90 00:04:41,560 --> 00:04:44,200 Some of the things I might flag, they were going to try and 91 00:04:44,200 --> 00:04:47,360 restrict your ability to buy Bitcoin with a credit card. 92 00:04:47,560 --> 00:04:48,960 That's gone. They say they're not going to 93 00:04:49,360 --> 00:04:50,960 not going to try and enforce that anymore. 94 00:04:51,640 --> 00:04:54,160 They're also backtracking a little bit on what are called 95 00:04:54,160 --> 00:04:59,200 some of the conduct of business regulations, saying that in some 96 00:04:59,200 --> 00:05:03,240 cases those may not apply to Bitcoin or cryptocurrency firms 97 00:05:03,920 --> 00:05:07,240 opening the market a little bit. And for me, one of the most 98 00:05:07,240 --> 00:05:09,440 positive things that I found when I was reviewing the 99 00:05:09,440 --> 00:05:12,720 legislation, they appear to have listened to all of our arguments 100 00:05:12,720 --> 00:05:15,680 saying that mining is not a financial service and shouldn't 101 00:05:15,680 --> 00:05:19,720 be regulated and node running is not a financial service and 102 00:05:19,720 --> 00:05:21,960 shouldn't be regulated. And that should also include 103 00:05:21,960 --> 00:05:24,960 running lightning nodes. And that that word is actually 104 00:05:24,960 --> 00:05:26,840 in the draft legislation, which is fantastic. 105 00:05:29,400 --> 00:05:30,760 Yeah, that's, that's very interesting. 106 00:05:30,760 --> 00:05:33,440 I'm, I'm thinking about maybe you could explain a bit more 107 00:05:33,440 --> 00:05:37,600 about like that third or new way of defining it as property. 108 00:05:37,600 --> 00:05:41,600 And I kind of, I want to relate to a tweet I saw, I think it was 109 00:05:41,600 --> 00:05:44,800 today by Knutz Swanholm. I, I thought it was very 110 00:05:44,800 --> 00:05:47,560 interesting. I, I won't read the whole tweet 111 00:05:47,640 --> 00:05:49,360 or maybe I will. Let's see how long it takes. 112 00:05:49,680 --> 00:05:52,360 But he said, and I've been thinking about that a lot and 113 00:05:52,360 --> 00:05:53,920 also wonder what do you think? Right. 114 00:05:53,920 --> 00:05:59,760 Like the the 12 words of a private key, right? 115 00:05:59,760 --> 00:06:04,600 They they are not a password like they are the actual access, 116 00:06:04,600 --> 00:06:06,720 right? They already like if you possess 117 00:06:07,120 --> 00:06:10,360 the 12 words, you also have the thing, right? 118 00:06:10,360 --> 00:06:14,880 It's not access to the thing. It is the thing which which is a 119 00:06:15,800 --> 00:06:18,560 sounds like a small, but it is a significant difference, right. 120 00:06:18,560 --> 00:06:21,840 So Knut tweeted, some governments tell you that you 121 00:06:21,840 --> 00:06:25,360 have to declare I'm doing air quotes, declare that you again, 122 00:06:25,360 --> 00:06:28,960 air quotes own a Bitcoin. Now how how do you do that 123 00:06:29,000 --> 00:06:30,920 right? And so he says, in short, if you 124 00:06:30,920 --> 00:06:36,520 know a private key that allows you to request the network to 125 00:06:36,840 --> 00:06:40,400 apply a specific alteration to the time chain that you you 126 00:06:40,600 --> 00:06:43,160 which basically is moving the thing, right? 127 00:06:43,160 --> 00:06:47,960 So then the time chain changes basically. 128 00:06:48,200 --> 00:06:52,120 But how can knowledge of that be equivalent to the ownership? 129 00:06:52,120 --> 00:06:56,920 So what happens when you say the keys in like the private key in 130 00:06:56,920 --> 00:06:59,760 in court, right? So these 12 magic words are 131 00:06:59,880 --> 00:07:01,840 again, not the password, but but the thing. 132 00:07:02,080 --> 00:07:05,760 So when you say it in court and everyone in court is then guilty 133 00:07:05,760 --> 00:07:09,360 of owning the Bitcoin, that is the subject of whatever the 134 00:07:09,360 --> 00:07:13,400 court case is about, right? So how do you, how do you prove 135 00:07:13,400 --> 00:07:17,520 that everyone else on earth doesn't know the same 12 right? 136 00:07:17,520 --> 00:07:20,760 So that you are the the only one that owns it? 137 00:07:20,760 --> 00:07:23,440 Does that does that make sense? Like I, I love that I love that 138 00:07:23,440 --> 00:07:27,520 idea because he says I'll finish under man made law, Bitcoin 139 00:07:27,520 --> 00:07:30,920 ownership is, is a paradox. Under natural law, the key 140 00:07:30,920 --> 00:07:34,360 holder simply is the owner. No declaration is required and 141 00:07:34,360 --> 00:07:37,200 no state is needed to to validate it. 142 00:07:37,200 --> 00:07:40,920 So what do you think about that? And how does that tie into maybe 143 00:07:40,920 --> 00:07:45,760 how it's defined right now? Because I find this extremely 144 00:07:45,760 --> 00:07:48,080 fascinating, right? Because eventually Bitcoin is 145 00:07:48,080 --> 00:07:51,320 just code and it's just word words like you can look at the 146 00:07:51,320 --> 00:07:55,480 whole BIP 360 list, right? That is all the Bitcoin that 147 00:07:55,480 --> 00:07:58,680 ever exists. So yeah, I, I, I thought it 148 00:07:58,680 --> 00:08:01,360 would be a, a fun topic to, to ask you. 149 00:08:01,480 --> 00:08:02,920 That's a. Super interesting one. 150 00:08:02,920 --> 00:08:06,120 And it's funny, I read that tweet myself and I think I 151 00:08:06,120 --> 00:08:09,360 replied to it with a silly example. 152 00:08:09,360 --> 00:08:12,760 You could shout bacon 12 times in court and that would have 153 00:08:12,760 --> 00:08:14,400 that effect. You, you know, the bacon wallet? 154 00:08:15,800 --> 00:08:20,000 No, I mean, oh, oh dude, sorry, random tangent. 155 00:08:20,280 --> 00:08:24,880 The the bacon 12 words 12 bacons is an actual wallet. 156 00:08:25,040 --> 00:08:29,480 It's it someone found it ages ago and it's just become a meme. 157 00:08:29,480 --> 00:08:31,920 So people are continually like dropping Bitcoin into it, but 158 00:08:31,920 --> 00:08:34,640 it's, it's continually monitored and it's always being swept 159 00:08:35,159 --> 00:08:37,799 because it's just, it's, it's like an open, it's an open 160 00:08:37,799 --> 00:08:38,600 season. It's public. 161 00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:40,559 Yeah, Yeah. Yeah, but yeah, you could go 162 00:08:40,559 --> 00:08:44,120 into court and shout bacon 12 times and then everyone in court 163 00:08:44,120 --> 00:08:48,680 will control that private key because it's, you know, it's an 164 00:08:48,680 --> 00:08:51,800 easy one to remember. What I think what's super 165 00:08:51,800 --> 00:08:55,720 interesting about what Knute says there is that there's, for 166 00:08:55,720 --> 00:08:57,480 me and. And again, as a lawyer, there's 167 00:08:57,480 --> 00:09:02,200 a differentiation between control and ownership in that 168 00:09:02,200 --> 00:09:06,720 sense. So in if if I had purchased 169 00:09:06,720 --> 00:09:11,000 Bitcoin and put it into a wallet, then that is my Bitcoin. 170 00:09:11,160 --> 00:09:15,360 And even if I tell someone else that private key, it doesn't 171 00:09:15,360 --> 00:09:17,880 become their Bitcoin even though they can control it. 172 00:09:18,160 --> 00:09:22,280 So maybe that maybe an analogy is if if I have a key to my car 173 00:09:22,280 --> 00:09:26,160 and I create multiple copies of that of my car key and then hand 174 00:09:26,160 --> 00:09:29,680 them out to people, the car is still legally mine because I 175 00:09:29,680 --> 00:09:32,640 bought and paid for it. And if anyone else takes the car 176 00:09:32,640 --> 00:09:35,720 and drives it away without my permission, then they, although 177 00:09:35,720 --> 00:09:40,600 they're controlling it, there's a difference in the legitimacy 178 00:09:40,600 --> 00:09:42,720 of that control. So it's not their car. 179 00:09:44,200 --> 00:09:46,200 And so the. They would have stolen it, 180 00:09:46,200 --> 00:09:48,440 basically, Yeah. OK, Yeah. 181 00:09:48,600 --> 00:09:52,440 So the the interesting thing arises if the ownership of a 182 00:09:52,440 --> 00:09:56,000 private key becomes illegal. And I think that's the that's 183 00:09:56,000 --> 00:09:59,280 the probably the heart of what Knut's post was about. 184 00:09:59,760 --> 00:10:03,560 So if the let let's say, let's take an extreme example, if 185 00:10:03,560 --> 00:10:06,560 Bitcoin is, if a government attempts to outlaw Bitcoin or to 186 00:10:06,560 --> 00:10:11,120 make the holding of a private key illegal, you can literally 187 00:10:11,120 --> 00:10:15,040 cause everyone to commit that crime by shouting bacon 12 188 00:10:15,040 --> 00:10:18,840 times. And and you'll get to a point 189 00:10:18,840 --> 00:10:22,960 where the the absurdity of law is so clear and the 190 00:10:22,960 --> 00:10:26,320 unenforceability of that law. Let's, let's again, let's, let's 191 00:10:26,320 --> 00:10:29,400 develop the idea, let's make it an imprisonable offence to have 192 00:10:29,400 --> 00:10:32,720 a private key. Yeah, we just take out an ad. 193 00:10:32,920 --> 00:10:35,760 Yes. And everyone reads the ads, 194 00:10:35,920 --> 00:10:37,280 right? Like in all the newspapers. 195 00:10:37,280 --> 00:10:39,520 We put it on TV. It's just bacon, Bacon, bacon, 196 00:10:39,520 --> 00:10:41,480 bacon. Yeah. 197 00:10:41,960 --> 00:10:44,080 OK. You wouldn't be able to go into 198 00:10:44,600 --> 00:10:48,400 the meat section of a supermarket or a store without 199 00:10:48,480 --> 00:10:49,680 immediately committing that fund. 200 00:10:51,440 --> 00:10:54,440 So as soon as you see the shelf full of bacon, you've 201 00:10:54,440 --> 00:11:00,000 immediately committed the crime. If something happened to you 202 00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:02,880 tomorrow, could your family access your Bitcoin? 203 00:11:03,200 --> 00:11:06,160 Not probably not. They'd figure it out, but with 204 00:11:06,160 --> 00:11:08,320 certainty. I thought about this a lot. 205 00:11:08,520 --> 00:11:11,360 Whatever custody solution you are using, inheritance is a 206 00:11:11,360 --> 00:11:13,560 piece most people haven't solved yet. 207 00:11:13,880 --> 00:11:17,160 Billions in Bitcoin have already been lost because someone died 208 00:11:17,160 --> 00:11:19,720 without a plan. With On Ramp, inheritance 209 00:11:19,720 --> 00:11:23,280 planning is built directly into your custody set up, your 210 00:11:23,280 --> 00:11:27,000 Bitcoin stays segregated and in your control, secured across 211 00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:30,480 independent institutions in multiple jurisdictions, insured 212 00:11:30,480 --> 00:11:33,160 through Lloyds of London, and accessible to the people you 213 00:11:33,160 --> 00:11:36,440 choose when they need it and it doesn't matter where in the 214 00:11:36,440 --> 00:11:40,480 world you or they are. You can book a free consultation 215 00:11:40,480 --> 00:11:43,640 to learn more at onlinebitcoin.com/brom. 216 00:11:43,880 --> 00:11:50,960 That's onlinebitcoin.com/brom. Most people stop too early with 217 00:11:51,040 --> 00:11:53,240 Bitcoin. They buy it, maybe move it to a 218 00:11:53,240 --> 00:11:55,920 wallet, and think they are done, but they're not. 219 00:11:56,080 --> 00:11:59,000 The real questions are how you're securing it, how private 220 00:11:59,000 --> 00:12:01,120 your setup is, and whether you're verifying your own 221 00:12:01,120 --> 00:12:03,000 transactions or trusting someone else. 222 00:12:03,280 --> 00:12:06,360 And what happens to your Bitcoin when something happens to you. 223 00:12:06,840 --> 00:12:09,560 This is the layer that most people ignore, and it's the most 224 00:12:09,560 --> 00:12:11,880 important one. That's why I've been working 225 00:12:11,880 --> 00:12:15,520 with the Bitcoin way to help you set up self custody properly, 226 00:12:15,520 --> 00:12:18,440 including privacy, cybersecurity, inheritance, and 227 00:12:18,440 --> 00:12:21,600 even running your own note. And they do it without ever 228 00:12:21,600 --> 00:12:24,960 touching your Bitcoin. They're not a custodian, they're 229 00:12:24,960 --> 00:12:27,160 your support team. If you're serious about this 230 00:12:27,160 --> 00:12:29,960 like I am, go to thebitcoinway.com/bram. 231 00:12:29,960 --> 00:12:33,800 That's Bram to book a free call. They'll walk you through your 232 00:12:33,800 --> 00:12:36,800 setup, personalize everything to you, and help you get a much 233 00:12:36,800 --> 00:12:40,200 stronger position very quickly, whether you're a beginner or 234 00:12:40,200 --> 00:12:43,640 more advanced. That's the bitcoinway.com/bram. 235 00:12:44,040 --> 00:12:48,240 So I, I think for, for me, the idea of legitimacy of ownership 236 00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:51,240 is where the, where, where the crime comes in. 237 00:12:51,240 --> 00:12:54,800 You know, I, I couldn't, I can't legitimately take your Bitcoin 238 00:12:54,800 --> 00:12:56,640 unless you give me permission to do that. 239 00:12:57,000 --> 00:12:59,040 If you told me the private key and said, yeah, Freddy, this 240 00:12:59,040 --> 00:13:01,200 wallet is for you, that's fine. But otherwise that's not, that's 241 00:13:01,200 --> 00:13:02,840 not OK. That, that's still theft. 242 00:13:03,520 --> 00:13:07,960 And the interesting thing about the bringing it back to the EU 243 00:13:07,960 --> 00:13:12,120 KS recent change in law, if I found your private key at home 244 00:13:12,520 --> 00:13:16,160 and then I went off and I emptied your wallet, English law 245 00:13:16,160 --> 00:13:19,240 would protect you now in that you, you could go to the police 246 00:13:19,240 --> 00:13:20,960 and you could say Freddie broke into my house. 247 00:13:20,960 --> 00:13:26,040 He took my 12 words and he swept my wallet because it's validly 248 00:13:26,040 --> 00:13:27,720 recognized as property under English law. 249 00:13:27,720 --> 00:13:30,920 The police will now investigate me and arrest me and they can, 250 00:13:30,920 --> 00:13:33,320 they can force me to give that key back. 251 00:13:34,200 --> 00:13:38,200 So it's a, it's a really interesting, nuanced technical 252 00:13:38,200 --> 00:13:40,880 point. And if anything I think it's the 253 00:13:40,880 --> 00:13:44,760 the absurdity of the point Knut's making really is some 254 00:13:44,760 --> 00:13:48,120 protection towards a get against governments trying to ban it 255 00:13:48,120 --> 00:13:52,080 because it's impossible. Yeah, it's also so interesting. 256 00:13:52,080 --> 00:13:54,800 Why, why Bitcoin is so profound, right? 257 00:13:54,800 --> 00:13:58,400 Like it is, it is nowhere and everywhere at at the same time. 258 00:13:58,400 --> 00:14:01,440 I think Knut was actually the first person who told me, you 259 00:14:01,440 --> 00:14:04,200 know, if you put a private key in a vault in Switzerland and 260 00:14:04,200 --> 00:14:07,720 you have the public key, you can send value to a vault in 261 00:14:07,720 --> 00:14:10,120 Switzerland, right? That that's that's mind blowing. 262 00:14:11,280 --> 00:14:16,040 Is there kind of like a cascade or a, I want to say a pyramid? 263 00:14:16,040 --> 00:14:19,960 I think cascade is better as to how you can kind of like 264 00:14:21,840 --> 00:14:26,120 logically articulate why banning is futile, right? 265 00:14:26,120 --> 00:14:30,480 Like what you just said, like the definition of the, of the 266 00:14:30,480 --> 00:14:34,560 fact that Bitcoin is a new form of property, which I didn't know 267 00:14:34,560 --> 00:14:36,360 about. So so thanks for sharing. 268 00:14:36,360 --> 00:14:38,000 Like how how that's done in the UK. 269 00:14:39,680 --> 00:14:42,520 Is that kind of like a primitive for everything? 270 00:14:42,760 --> 00:14:45,800 Else. Or yeah, like how, how, how 271 00:14:45,800 --> 00:14:48,000 could you think about it? Do you understand what I mean? 272 00:14:48,000 --> 00:14:49,120 Like. Yeah, 100%. 273 00:14:49,120 --> 00:14:51,360 I think you're completely right, actually, the way that the 274 00:14:51,480 --> 00:14:54,320 legislation is drafted, it's, and if anyone wants to pull it 275 00:14:54,320 --> 00:14:56,160 up, it's very easy to read. It's just one page. 276 00:14:56,680 --> 00:14:59,040 It's a classic piece of English law drafting. 277 00:14:59,040 --> 00:15:01,480 You know, it's one of the few things that Britain is good at, 278 00:15:02,320 --> 00:15:05,720 drafting laws. They say a thing shall not be 279 00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:10,040 prevented from being property by virtue of being neither a chosen 280 00:15:10,040 --> 00:15:13,960 action, a contract, nor a chosen possession thing. 281 00:15:14,480 --> 00:15:18,200 And So what it does is it's, it's an inclusive definition. 282 00:15:18,200 --> 00:15:21,240 It's not an exclusive definition, which means that 283 00:15:22,560 --> 00:15:26,840 arguably even an idea could be property under this. 284 00:15:26,920 --> 00:15:30,200 And, and for me, I find the idea that the concept of Bitcoin as 285 00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:33,480 an idea is so fascinating, particularly in the context of 286 00:15:33,480 --> 00:15:36,120 sending Bitcoin. I, I wrote about this a long 287 00:15:36,120 --> 00:15:39,840 time ago, actually, the, the, it's the, the concept that 288 00:15:40,920 --> 00:15:43,920 Bitcoin is like an idea that I can only have once. 289 00:15:43,920 --> 00:15:47,520 If I, if I have a, if I have Bitcoin and I send it to you, 290 00:15:48,400 --> 00:15:51,840 then it's not like an idea where we can, I can tell you an idea 291 00:15:51,840 --> 00:15:54,080 and then both of us have that same idea in our heads. 292 00:15:54,240 --> 00:15:56,440 Correct. Yes, it's incredible, isn't it? 293 00:15:56,440 --> 00:16:00,440 It's like a unique element of an idea which if I sign a 294 00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:04,160 transaction with my private key and send Bitcoin to you, I can 295 00:16:04,160 --> 00:16:08,480 no longer control that in any shape, form or, or or respect. 296 00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:13,160 And I find that concept, I mean, you begin to get into very sort 297 00:16:13,160 --> 00:16:15,720 of metaphysical ideas around what exactly it is we're dealing 298 00:16:15,720 --> 00:16:17,000 with here. But I find that absolutely 299 00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:22,120 fascinating. I have a lot more questions but 300 00:16:22,120 --> 00:16:27,200 I want to keep on this track because you know it it is to 301 00:16:27,200 --> 00:16:28,880 connect it to your background, right? 302 00:16:28,880 --> 00:16:35,080 Like you have law, which is you can take it literally, right? 303 00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:38,960 Which is the whole I well, sometimes the whole idea of a 304 00:16:38,960 --> 00:16:41,320 law, right? And sometimes you have this 305 00:16:41,320 --> 00:16:44,560 legal text that is, you know, the classic legal speak where 306 00:16:44,560 --> 00:16:48,880 there's a lot of words, but the kind of conclusion is, well, 307 00:16:48,880 --> 00:16:50,640 this applies to everything, right? 308 00:16:50,640 --> 00:16:54,160 So I'm covering everything like all my liabilities, like 309 00:16:54,160 --> 00:16:56,800 literally all my liabilities are covered even when we're talking 310 00:16:56,800 --> 00:16:58,800 about one, right? Like that's how I could like 311 00:16:59,080 --> 00:17:03,200 mush the words, but with Bitcoin, it is always the 312 00:17:03,200 --> 00:17:05,000 literal thing. And I think that's what you're 313 00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:08,359 talking about, right? Like it's also very interesting 314 00:17:08,359 --> 00:17:13,119 to to think about like your, your, your Bitcoin and my 315 00:17:13,119 --> 00:17:16,359 Bitcoin and everyone else's Bitcoin is is all like unique, 316 00:17:16,800 --> 00:17:19,200 right? Like if you take all the Bitcoin 317 00:17:19,200 --> 00:17:22,760 that exists, I have this sliver and you have that sliver, like 318 00:17:22,760 --> 00:17:26,960 I've always visualize it as like a wall of bank vaults. 319 00:17:27,440 --> 00:17:33,320 And I have bank vault X, you know, 123 and 456 and you have 320 00:17:33,320 --> 00:17:39,040 bank vault 321 and, you know, 17160 sixty two. 321 00:17:39,440 --> 00:17:46,480 And this kind of like attempt at visualization is is not enough, 322 00:17:46,480 --> 00:17:48,360 right, Because, like you said, it's metaphysical. 323 00:17:48,360 --> 00:17:52,560 So it's it's it's, it's the, the visualization is flawed, right, 324 00:17:52,600 --> 00:17:57,480 Because what you're saying is that, and and this is also in 325 00:17:57,480 --> 00:18:02,440 in, in what Knut said, right? The the and, and what you said, 326 00:18:02,440 --> 00:18:06,160 the words actually change the blockchain, right. 327 00:18:06,160 --> 00:18:12,160 So if my words go to you, it it alters the entire state of 328 00:18:12,160 --> 00:18:15,560 almost, I don't know, like all the letters and numbers. 329 00:18:15,560 --> 00:18:18,400 I'm, I'm even try I'm trying to describe it right. 330 00:18:18,800 --> 00:18:23,040 And that is very profound because yeah, it's there or not. 331 00:18:23,040 --> 00:18:27,400 Like you said, it's not a shared idea like we, we can I I can 332 00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:30,600 share my idea with you and then we both own the idea like the 333 00:18:30,600 --> 00:18:32,600 combination of words in our head. 334 00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:37,920 But when it comes to Bitcoin, it can be in my head, but it's not, 335 00:18:38,040 --> 00:18:40,800 I don't have it. It's which is very strange. 336 00:18:41,040 --> 00:18:43,440 It's very strange it. Is, you know, if if we were 337 00:18:43,440 --> 00:18:46,640 still in a in a society that sort of believed in magic, 338 00:18:46,640 --> 00:18:48,200 that's really what it would feel like. 339 00:18:48,600 --> 00:18:51,360 It's as though and you know, the the the whole the whole cultural 340 00:18:51,360 --> 00:18:53,960 history of of magic, again, being slightly esoteric for a 341 00:18:53,960 --> 00:18:58,280 moment is is around the idea of correct speaking and spells 342 00:18:58,760 --> 00:19:04,600 spell is actually an old an old form for word And the idea that 343 00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:07,440 you and Doug Gigi is very, very good on this. 344 00:19:07,440 --> 00:19:10,320 You know, his old writings. I really miss, I really miss him 345 00:19:10,480 --> 00:19:12,720 Twitter. Bitcoin is time. 346 00:19:12,880 --> 00:19:14,520 Bitcoin is time. Bitcoin is speech. 347 00:19:14,520 --> 00:19:17,080 Bitcoin is sending. Bitcoin is sending a message. 348 00:19:17,520 --> 00:19:21,280 But unlike e-mail, it's a message that can only be sent 349 00:19:21,800 --> 00:19:25,240 once by, you know, And once I have sent it, I can't call it 350 00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:28,760 back. I can't then forward that on to 351 00:19:28,760 --> 00:19:32,080 someone else. So for example, if if we're 352 00:19:32,080 --> 00:19:34,800 using an analogy, when we're speaking to a politician or a 353 00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:38,000 regulator about the e-mail protocol, it's very important to 354 00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:42,480 distinguish the e-mail protocol that that's SMTP from the 355 00:19:42,480 --> 00:19:45,720 Bitcoin protocol. It's, and I think that's one of 356 00:19:45,720 --> 00:19:49,320 the things that a lot of non-technical and non Bitcoin 357 00:19:49,320 --> 00:19:53,320 people struggle to understand the it's we, we're used to this 358 00:19:53,400 --> 00:19:58,520 world of endlessly copyable digital abundance where any 359 00:19:58,520 --> 00:20:02,320 picture can be right clicked and saved down, any e-mail can be 360 00:20:02,320 --> 00:20:04,560 forwarded, any film can be pirated. 361 00:20:05,200 --> 00:20:08,640 It's very difficult for someone who's become habituated to that 362 00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:13,080 world to understand that Bitcoin is, is digital uniqueness, it's 363 00:20:13,080 --> 00:20:16,400 digital scarcity. And that's like we said with the 364 00:20:16,400 --> 00:20:18,240 ideas. Once I've told my Bitcoin to 365 00:20:18,240 --> 00:20:20,360 you, I can't tell it to anyone else. 366 00:20:22,440 --> 00:20:24,640 Gigi should write another article on this, I I think. 367 00:20:24,640 --> 00:20:29,240 I think the world needs, yeah. Well, and, and then to tie it 368 00:20:29,240 --> 00:20:33,560 back to what you mentioned about the, the FCA admitting that, you 369 00:20:33,560 --> 00:20:37,280 know, mining and writing a note aren't regulated financial 370 00:20:37,280 --> 00:20:40,280 services, which I think it, it does tie into this, right? 371 00:20:40,280 --> 00:20:45,840 So because what do you actually do as a miner or a note, right? 372 00:20:45,840 --> 00:20:50,760 What with, with these words and this and this code, it, it is 373 00:20:50,760 --> 00:20:53,440 again, so interesting that this is just, it's so outside of the 374 00:20:53,440 --> 00:20:56,400 current paradigm, right? Because the current paradigm is, 375 00:20:56,400 --> 00:20:59,120 is, you know, there's, there's policy, there's a, there's like 376 00:20:59,120 --> 00:21:01,960 a, there's like a start and an end and there's a fence around 377 00:21:01,960 --> 00:21:03,720 it. And, and, you know, we can kind 378 00:21:03,720 --> 00:21:07,080 of like set the rules, we can change the rules, right? 379 00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:15,440 But with Bitcoin, it's just a set set of rules, which you 380 00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:17,960 know, people, you know, the people that that participate in 381 00:21:17,960 --> 00:21:21,120 a Bitcoin network are incentivized not to change, 382 00:21:21,120 --> 00:21:24,240 obviously. So how, how do we connect this 383 00:21:24,240 --> 00:21:30,920 to how they label mining and running notes, right? 384 00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:33,680 Not being a financial service like what? 385 00:21:33,680 --> 00:21:38,440 Why is this so important? So in terms of in terms of 386 00:21:38,440 --> 00:21:42,880 labeling, maybe just not there, we've been consistent in our 387 00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:47,760 explanation over time that validation of transactions is 388 00:21:47,760 --> 00:21:52,120 different from from mining and trying to explain in very simple 389 00:21:52,120 --> 00:21:54,760 terms of what what the miners do is they determine the order of 390 00:21:54,760 --> 00:21:59,680 transactions and once at you, as you and I know, but they they 391 00:21:59,680 --> 00:22:02,840 may not once a once a transaction has been mined into 392 00:22:02,840 --> 00:22:05,840 a block and once a certain number of blocks are mined on 393 00:22:05,840 --> 00:22:09,320 top of that of that block, it effectively becomes impossible 394 00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:11,640 to reverse. Obviously occasionally you do 395 00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:16,960 get you do get competing blocks, but then as we know you, you 396 00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:19,400 will get an orphan block and then then then the time chain 397 00:22:19,400 --> 00:22:23,520 will revert to A to a single single sequence of blocks. 398 00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:28,040 So for non-technical people in these kind of institutions, 399 00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:33,280 explaining to them exactly how mining works with transactions 400 00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:37,000 being scooped up in the mem pool, then hashed and then 401 00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:40,520 subsequently determined determining the sequence of 402 00:22:40,520 --> 00:22:43,240 transactions is quite a simple way to explain it. 403 00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:47,560 And then also explaining the nodes in the vast majority of 404 00:22:47,560 --> 00:22:51,400 cases nowadays don't mind, but they validate transactions. 405 00:22:51,400 --> 00:22:54,360 They check that you have the Bitcoin that you were sending me 406 00:22:54,360 --> 00:22:57,760 from your UTXO, they check that it's properly signed with your 407 00:22:57,760 --> 00:23:00,840 private key, etcetera, etcetera. And once they're valid and they 408 00:23:00,840 --> 00:23:02,760 have that tip, then they can go into the mempool. 409 00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:09,160 And as soon as it then becomes apparent that neither of these, 410 00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:14,680 neither of these activities relates to, if to any form of 411 00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:17,920 financial services that a regulator would recognize it, it 412 00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:20,240 then becomes logically consistent that they're not 413 00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:23,680 financial services. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 414 00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:27,360 My, my big fault around this is, and I love that that we touched 415 00:23:27,360 --> 00:23:32,680 upon this. It is the the value is is like 416 00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:37,120 on top of this process that that we are talking about, right. 417 00:23:37,120 --> 00:23:42,800 So the value is derived from the fact that this process works 418 00:23:42,920 --> 00:23:45,280 like this. You know, you have you have the 419 00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:49,240 Ledger which is, you know, literally the the book with the 420 00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:51,760 letters and the and the numbers, right. 421 00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:57,280 And the book is being updated or there's, there's stuff being 422 00:23:57,280 --> 00:24:01,360 added or changed and, or changed to the book every every 10 423 00:24:01,360 --> 00:24:04,200 minutes. And then that's the minors. 424 00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:08,000 And then you have the notes that validate that this is the book. 425 00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:11,200 And that is basically just it, right? 426 00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:16,040 It's, it's just letters, letters and numbers in a sequence that 427 00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:19,960 is agreed upon, right? That's the consensus part. 428 00:24:20,440 --> 00:24:24,560 And I think the, the value comes from the fact that there's 429 00:24:24,560 --> 00:24:27,200 nothing in the world that is like that, right? 430 00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:34,400 And anyone, anyone can put in, let's call it a request to 431 00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:37,280 change the numbers and the, the letters, right? 432 00:24:37,280 --> 00:24:40,680 Which is my transaction to you, for example, because I can, I 433 00:24:40,680 --> 00:24:44,600 control a certain combination of letters. 434 00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:47,600 It's so funny, right? Like, it is so fucking basic but 435 00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:52,000 so profound, right? And it's it's, it's, it's just 436 00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:53,960 data. Like, it's literally a data 437 00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:55,480 file, right? I don't know what the blockchain 438 00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:57,840 is right now. Like 507 hundred gigs doesn't 439 00:24:57,840 --> 00:25:02,600 really matter. And the fact that that data is 440 00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:07,680 agreed upon continuously, right? And being secured more and more 441 00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:11,880 and more continuously, that is where the value comes from 442 00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:14,520 because you can use this accounting system. 443 00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:17,480 I'm still trying to get Darren Feinstein, you know, Darren 444 00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:21,080 Feinstein. Oh, yeah, I, I, I still have, 445 00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:24,280 you know, he, he, he will be on the podcast, but he's talking 446 00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:27,640 about, you know, a triple entry bookkeeping and stuff like that, 447 00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:28,520 right? Like that. 448 00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:31,680 Is this right? So if you know that the book is 449 00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:37,040 true and the only change to the book is done by actual consensus 450 00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:41,520 plus, well, it's done by proof of work and actual consensus so 451 00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:43,360 that it becomes immutable, right? 452 00:25:43,360 --> 00:25:48,880 The text in the book basically that is the that is the 453 00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:52,080 revolution and there's nothing like that that exists in the 454 00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:55,080 world. And that is why this is, is 455 00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:57,240 valuable, right? So when you take it back to the 456 00:25:57,240 --> 00:25:59,720 argument that, that, that you mentioned, right, like they, 457 00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:04,600 they are not conducting the financial action basically, 458 00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:06,240 right. They are just updating the book 459 00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:10,200 and other people are, are applying the participating in 460 00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:13,360 the consensus, right? But the the value is is a 461 00:26:13,360 --> 00:26:16,800 separately derived or agreed upon thing. 462 00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:22,000 You've said so much interesting stuff there, absolutely 463 00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:24,400 fascinating. But I think that maybe picking 464 00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:26,760 up the value point first, you're completely correct. 465 00:26:27,320 --> 00:26:30,520 And often when people say they challenge, they say, oh, Bitcoin 466 00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:33,080 has no intrinsic value. I'll say well, yeah, I actually 467 00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:36,120 kind of agree with you. It's big, it has no interest. 468 00:26:36,120 --> 00:26:36,800 It's true. It's. 469 00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:39,760 The function has value. The function of it's exactly 470 00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:43,280 right. Me Bitcoin represents value and 471 00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:47,200 the representation of the value, the more value accrues the time 472 00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:51,040 chain by virtue of what you said, you know the the, the the 473 00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:55,600 process that speaks truth every 10 minutes that tells all 474 00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:58,560 participants in the network what changes have taken place in the 475 00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:04,040 preceding 10 minutes and which no one can manipulate or game or 476 00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:07,720 corrupt in any way. That is where the value lies and 477 00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:10,360 that's why value has been attributed to it. 478 00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:14,080 But we forget, you know, for the first two years of its of its 479 00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:16,120 life, Bitcoin had no market price at all. 480 00:27:16,120 --> 00:27:19,960 There wasn't no value at all. It was just processing this 481 00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:21,800 information. It was updating the time chain. 482 00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:24,560 Truth was being spoken every 10 minutes, but no one cared. 483 00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:28,800 And it's funny as well to imagine if humans became extinct 484 00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:33,840 today, all humans vanished for as long as our computers were 485 00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:36,920 still running and our note was still validating and the power 486 00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:38,600 stayed on. There would probably be a little 487 00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:43,160 time when this was just happening automatically and 488 00:27:43,160 --> 00:27:45,440 empty blocks are being mined because no humans are making 489 00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:48,800 transactions anymore. And there would be no value 490 00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:52,280 attributed to those Bitcoin because the things that 491 00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:54,600 attribute the value. While you and I, the humans who 492 00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:59,000 have decided that our time and energy and work is represented 493 00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:03,760 in this time chain. For my European friends that 494 00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:06,520 want to buy Bitcoin with ease, check out Relay. 495 00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:09,480 I've been a long time fan and happy to partner up with what I 496 00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:12,600 think is the best Bitcoin only platform for Europeans. 497 00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:16,320 They offer a super simple beginner friendly app with no 498 00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:20,600 distractions and no shit coins. You can do a quick one time 499 00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:23,920 smash buy or set up automatic purchases when you're stacking 500 00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:25,880 regularly. And here's the thing that 501 00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:29,400 matters most. Relay is 100% self custody. 502 00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:33,120 Every set you hold is yours, your keys, your coins. 503 00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:35,840 If you want to get started, download the app file in my link 504 00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:38,160 below or in the description and use code BRUM. 505 00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:42,040 That's BR AM at checkout to get 10% of your fees. 506 00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:45,360 Every bitcoiner hits this moment. 507 00:28:45,560 --> 00:28:49,160 You need cash, maybe a house deposit, an emergency or a tax 508 00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:50,800 bill. And you're staring at your stack 509 00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:53,120 thinking, do I really want to sell this? 510 00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:55,280 Here's the thing, you don't have to. 511 00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:57,120 You can borrow against your Bitcoin instead. 512 00:28:57,120 --> 00:29:00,640 So there's also no taxable event and your stack can keep on 513 00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:03,200 stacking. This is where Firefish comes in, 514 00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:06,120 a peer-to-peer marketplace for Bitcoin backed loans. 515 00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:09,320 And Firefish isn't a lender. They built the protocol that 516 00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:13,360 makes this all possible, which is exactly why they never ever 517 00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:16,400 have to touch your Bitcoin during your loan. 518 00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:19,480 Your Bitcoin sits in an on chain multi sick secured by open 519 00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:21,680 source code. You can easily create a loan 520 00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:24,600 request with your desired amount, duration and interest 521 00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:28,040 rate and share it on their marketplace at firefish dot IO. 522 00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:30,960 When you get matched and decide to accept a loan offer, you can 523 00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:34,560 use code Brom to get 30% of your first loans fees. 524 00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:38,080 That's firefish dot IO and code. Brom yeah, for sure. 525 00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:40,680 And this is also the argument against, you know, people saying 526 00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:45,080 like, what if the EMP or what if the nuclear thing are blows up, 527 00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:46,760 right? Or what if there's a media or or 528 00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:48,880 whatever. The point you're making is that 529 00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:53,640 as long as there are two nodes, right and there is consensus on 530 00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:59,240 the book, then once the network grows again, right? 531 00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:02,120 And, and the fun thing is that it can basically never die 532 00:30:02,120 --> 00:30:05,880 because the oldest chain is the one that is, well, the, the 533 00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:09,120 chain that has the most consensus is the truth, right. 534 00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:14,360 So even after a certain time of, you know, global outages in 535 00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:18,520 certain places, the fact that all these nodes are are 536 00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:22,000 distributed in a certain way and can still connect to the network 537 00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:26,400 after will make sure that, you know, there, there's a there, 538 00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:29,200 there's an exit or like a certain fork, right? 539 00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:31,160 There's, there's a version that's going to be chosen. 540 00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:33,800 And that's why it basically lives forever. 541 00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:36,520 And the fun thing then you come back to it's just letters and 542 00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:38,680 numbers. That's the crazy thing, right? 543 00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:43,040 That that that is, I want to say easy, right? 544 00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:47,480 It's easy to maintain. There are no, there are no 545 00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:50,040 buildings, there are no, you know, there's, there's no other 546 00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:54,760 stuff that you need to maintain even when there's a solar flash 547 00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:57,160 or whatever. Like there are probably miners 548 00:30:57,160 --> 00:31:01,200 and nodes in Faraday cages like in the in, in the in the world, 549 00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:03,680 right. So, yeah. 550 00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:07,000 So that that's why it can basically not die. 551 00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:08,720 It's just, it's just letters, numbers. 552 00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:11,280 Yeah, you know block stream have a satellite in space that runs a 553 00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:13,200 full node. Yeah, that's always my argument 554 00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:14,920 also. Yeah, exactly. 555 00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:20,840 So, OK, I love that we took this, this, this, this, this 556 00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:25,400 exit because this is and I think this is also why this is under 557 00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:30,280 discussed because if we translate that to, you know, you 558 00:31:30,280 --> 00:31:32,760 mentioned it correctly, I think, you know, money is a social 559 00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:35,760 consensus as well. That's why the what is money 560 00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:39,400 question is so important when you know, we can talk about 561 00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:42,560 Bitcoin in this way, but then the relevant question is OK, but 562 00:31:42,560 --> 00:31:44,280 why is this even important, right? 563 00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:49,320 Like, why is it important that, you know, a Ledger is basically 564 00:31:49,320 --> 00:31:57,880 incorruptible and therefore verifiable and auditable for 565 00:31:57,880 --> 00:32:01,280 anyone who wants to do that without any third party, right? 566 00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:04,680 All the way back when people talk about my own history of 567 00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:07,360 money, it is about the Ledger, right? 568 00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:11,200 It is it is about the truth of of the Ledger and that that went 569 00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:14,840 back to, you know, when people had chains with, you know, 570 00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:16,960 these, these things on them, right, like that. 571 00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:20,440 You know, the more tokens you had on your chain, the more 572 00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:22,640 people were indebted to you, right? 573 00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:28,880 Like it, it showed your kind of like claim on on on the Ledger, 574 00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:32,040 So to say, right. Like it it, it was a way for you 575 00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:36,600 to get someone to do something for you so they could change 576 00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:40,000 their position on on the ledgers. 577 00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:41,960 Yeah. And that that those tokens, it's 578 00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:44,240 interesting you mentioned those because tracking back to what we 579 00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:47,760 said a few minutes ago, those are exactly the type of property 580 00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:49,720 that was already recognised under English law. 581 00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:51,720 Those are effectively obligations. 582 00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:53,080 They're a form of liability money. 583 00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:55,800 Yes, yes, and. One of the fascinating things 584 00:32:55,800 --> 00:32:58,800 about our modern money, Fiat money, is very few people 585 00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:01,280 realise that it's, it's essentially all liabilities 586 00:33:01,280 --> 00:33:04,120 nowadays. If you'd read the paperwork from 587 00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:07,400 any central bank, they will tell you, you know, banknotes are a 588 00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:11,680 liability of the central bank. Government money is a liability 589 00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:14,680 of that central bank and commercial bank money, which is 590 00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:18,520 how most money is, is created nowadays by is what is created 591 00:33:18,520 --> 00:33:22,400 when banks make loans. People think that banks take in 592 00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:25,160 deposits from you and me and they lend those deposits out. 593 00:33:25,280 --> 00:33:28,080 That's really not how how money functions at all. 594 00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:31,920 It's one of the things that I get so worked up about, you 595 00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:34,240 know, particularly, you know, for house prices. 596 00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:38,200 You know, back to the title of your podcast, millennials in the 597 00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:40,960 UK, it's almost impossible for them to buy houses. 598 00:33:41,280 --> 00:33:44,760 One of the reasons house prices are so expensive is because of 599 00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:48,680 the ease with which banks were able to create new money for 600 00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:50,680 people to get mortgages to buy houses. 601 00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:54,760 And so the price of a house was determined not really by how 602 00:33:54,760 --> 00:33:58,120 much it was worth, but by how much certain people could borrow 603 00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:01,720 in order to bid for them. That's one of the reasons that 604 00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:04,440 that their price is completely out of control. 605 00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:11,280 We're seeing currently, I would say kind of we're, we're in the 606 00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:16,080 end times of Fiat money, right. We can talk for turning or, you 607 00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:20,719 know, cycles, whatever, but I, I talk about it like we're in the 608 00:34:20,719 --> 00:34:25,400 end times of centralization and centralized control and kind of 609 00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:29,920 also seeing that the centralized control doesn't bring what the 610 00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:35,239 centralized people in charge are are telling you it it's bringing 611 00:34:35,239 --> 00:34:37,320 right. And so we see all this kind of 612 00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:40,920 crazy stuff going on, like, for example, a lot of talk about, 613 00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:44,840 you know, age gating stuff on the Internet, digital IDs in the 614 00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:49,639 UK and, and the EU. And I kind of wanted to ask you 615 00:34:49,639 --> 00:34:52,920 like how I have my own idea, but I want to ask you first, like 616 00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:55,840 how, how does Bitcoin kind of serve as, I want to say, like, 617 00:34:56,159 --> 00:34:59,480 like a like a firewall, you know, against all of this 618 00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:03,440 overreach, right? Like they're trying to the 619 00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:07,120 Internet's kind of the last decentralized place of 620 00:35:07,120 --> 00:35:09,600 information and ideas and stuff like that, right? 621 00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:15,520 And you see that they are, you know, trying to move on on that. 622 00:35:15,520 --> 00:35:18,920 How do you how do you feel about Bitcoin in that that picture? 623 00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:22,640 For me, I think the answer to that comes down to one of the 624 00:35:22,640 --> 00:35:26,640 fundamental properties of Bitcoin has always excited me 625 00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:30,200 and been most important to me, which is it's censorship 626 00:35:30,200 --> 00:35:33,320 resistance. I've, I've, I've always had that 627 00:35:33,320 --> 00:35:38,120 as, as the primary importance for, for me after perhaps the, 628 00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:41,800 the fact that it can't be inflated away or, or controlled, 629 00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:45,600 the, the idea that I can still make a transaction even if the 630 00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:48,120 government wants to stop me making that transaction for me 631 00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:51,840 is fundamentally important. And I think it's because if you 632 00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:54,760 track back all of the different freedoms that we, we, that we 633 00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:58,480 think about that, that are human rights, most of them are 634 00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:01,760 actually downstream from your freedom to transact. 635 00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:07,320 And so my freedom to transact at will with you or with anyone 636 00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:11,840 else to, to, to spend money to, to deploy my time and energy 637 00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:15,160 however I see fit is so fundamentally important to all 638 00:36:15,160 --> 00:36:19,000 other freedoms that it's, it's all, it's, it's so big that 639 00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:21,160 people often often don't recognize this. 640 00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:25,040 So to take a, a simple example, let's say you want to exercise 641 00:36:25,040 --> 00:36:28,200 your right to protest. You want to travel on the metro 642 00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:31,680 on a train to go to, to join a protest, a peaceful protest. 643 00:36:32,680 --> 00:36:34,800 If you go to the station and you suddenly find that the 644 00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:39,120 government has identified you as a person who might protest and 645 00:36:39,120 --> 00:36:42,200 has frozen your bank card, they would prevent you from 646 00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:46,360 exercising your rights to to to free assembly and and to free 647 00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:50,600 speech very easily. So from for me, the extent to 648 00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:54,080 which the government is able to reduce its cost of enforcement 649 00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:59,840 in imposing its will on its population is extremely 650 00:36:59,840 --> 00:37:03,280 dangerous. That's they will obviously look 651 00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:06,280 to increase their ability to impose their will on us through 652 00:37:06,280 --> 00:37:08,320 things like digital ID and age gating. 653 00:37:08,880 --> 00:37:12,400 But to your question, the fact that there is a money which they 654 00:37:12,400 --> 00:37:15,480 can't stop and cannot control and which we can go on using 655 00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:19,720 even if they shut everything else down is a huge it's a sword 656 00:37:19,720 --> 00:37:21,600 and a shield. I think, you know, it's a 657 00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:24,160 defensive weapon and it's an offensive weapon against 658 00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:26,520 government overreach. Being completely blunt. 659 00:37:29,280 --> 00:37:31,400 Yeah. And this is also why it's so 660 00:37:32,120 --> 00:37:35,280 fun, right? Like something that is purely 661 00:37:35,280 --> 00:37:43,000 decentralized and has no rulers is fundamentally just different 662 00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:48,840 from anything centralized rulers can attempt to, to, to do, 663 00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:52,520 right. So and I think, yeah, I think 664 00:37:52,520 --> 00:37:55,080 you just made the case why you need Bitcoin right now, right? 665 00:37:55,080 --> 00:38:00,880 Like the Bitcoin is not only about preserving time and energy 666 00:38:00,880 --> 00:38:04,320 and your wealth, etcetera. It is literally about opting out 667 00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:10,840 of a system where there are central rulers that don't want 668 00:38:10,840 --> 00:38:14,600 you to be a player in the game that they that they control. 669 00:38:14,640 --> 00:38:16,760 Right. And I think that is kind of 670 00:38:16,760 --> 00:38:20,360 like, yeah, I always talk about it like this is the little red 671 00:38:20,360 --> 00:38:22,920 pill you have to take. Like, yeah, you are a pawn in a 672 00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:28,040 game that other people play and control and you think you are a 673 00:38:28,040 --> 00:38:31,520 player while you're, you know, growing up and, you know, 674 00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:36,600 becoming an adult and whatever. But yeah, once you kind of see 675 00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:39,560 that that is an illusion. Like you have to take. 676 00:38:39,560 --> 00:38:42,120 Action, right? If you don't take the action, 677 00:38:42,120 --> 00:38:44,080 you will. You will be stuck being a pawn 678 00:38:44,080 --> 00:38:47,720 and like in this endless rat race, just running and standing 679 00:38:47,720 --> 00:38:49,720 still basically. Yeah, completely right that 680 00:38:49,720 --> 00:38:51,360 there's a fantastic quote, isn't there? 681 00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:54,600 All it takes for evil to triumph is for good people to do 682 00:38:54,600 --> 00:39:00,360 nothing. I, I think the, the huge, it 683 00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:04,480 seems globally coordinated push to restrict people's freedom of 684 00:39:04,480 --> 00:39:08,800 speech and freedom of thought is unbelievably dangerous. 685 00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:12,240 And it is frankly, it is time for us to say, you know, thus 686 00:39:12,240 --> 00:39:15,920 far and no further, you know, it's, it's fundamentally 687 00:39:15,920 --> 00:39:19,480 important for us as free human beings to stand up for our 688 00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:21,240 rights. And you know, that's not always 689 00:39:21,480 --> 00:39:24,200 comfortable to do that, but it's something that we must do. 690 00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:28,840 Yeah, well, this ties back to, to, to when we talked about the 691 00:39:28,840 --> 00:39:30,160 characteristics of Bitcoin, right? 692 00:39:30,160 --> 00:39:34,040 It is speech, it is expression, right? 693 00:39:34,040 --> 00:39:36,080 And, and you can think about that in different ways. 694 00:39:36,080 --> 00:39:39,560 I've had Seth Bunny on who said, well, every time you buy 695 00:39:39,560 --> 00:39:42,280 something, you're basically expressing your values. 696 00:39:42,280 --> 00:39:44,200 I love that. Like you're communicating your 697 00:39:44,520 --> 00:39:46,680 your values, right. So you can think about it like 698 00:39:46,680 --> 00:39:48,880 that, but you can also think, think about it in the, in the 699 00:39:48,880 --> 00:39:52,320 technical issue way that, that, that we talked about. 700 00:39:52,320 --> 00:39:55,240 Like, yeah, it, it is just a protocol with letters and 701 00:39:55,240 --> 00:39:58,280 numbers. You cannot restrict speech 702 00:39:58,400 --> 00:40:02,120 basically. And so also back to that tweet 703 00:40:02,120 --> 00:40:06,360 of Knut, like I, I would love to see court cases around this 704 00:40:06,480 --> 00:40:09,280 because like you said, it's, it's just going to show the 705 00:40:09,280 --> 00:40:13,040 ridiculousness of what they're trying to do, right? 706 00:40:13,040 --> 00:40:17,280 If you can explain a deeper than than what we talked about how 707 00:40:17,600 --> 00:40:21,200 Bitcoin functions technically all we're doing. 708 00:40:21,840 --> 00:40:25,640 Is making edits to a shared book. 709 00:40:25,640 --> 00:40:27,560 Yeah, we are. That's all we're doing. 710 00:40:28,160 --> 00:40:31,360 I don't know if you've ever seen the the YouTube clip of someone 711 00:40:31,360 --> 00:40:35,520 hashing by hand. It's now it's worth digging up. 712 00:40:35,520 --> 00:40:40,240 And again, I've quoted Gigi already on this part, but it's 713 00:40:40,240 --> 00:40:42,480 very worthwhile digging up his piece. 714 00:40:42,480 --> 00:40:45,160 I think it's called implications of outlawing Bitcoin or 715 00:40:45,160 --> 00:40:48,760 implications of banning Bitcoin because he goes into these ideas 716 00:40:48,760 --> 00:40:51,560 in incredible depth. It's to this day one of the best 717 00:40:51,560 --> 00:40:53,360 things I've ever read about Bitcoin. 718 00:40:53,640 --> 00:40:56,000 And he talks about the impossibility of banning it 719 00:40:56,000 --> 00:40:58,240 because it is speech and it is mathematics. 720 00:40:58,680 --> 00:41:02,880 And he says in order to ban it, you would need to surveil 721 00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:05,560 everyone at all times, everywhere, and prevent them 722 00:41:05,560 --> 00:41:08,800 from doing things like flipping a coin in their room or rolling 723 00:41:08,800 --> 00:41:15,360 dice or even thinking of 12 random words or observing the 724 00:41:15,360 --> 00:41:18,400 flights of birds. Anything that creates entropy 725 00:41:18,880 --> 00:41:20,720 can be used to generate a private key. 726 00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:26,480 And in fact, I spent a lot of time a couple of years back 727 00:41:26,840 --> 00:41:30,560 before the US elections trolling Elizabeth Warren, who wanted to 728 00:41:30,560 --> 00:41:33,520 ban Bitcoin and ban unhosted wallets, as she called them. 729 00:41:35,040 --> 00:41:41,520 She wrote a letter once, a diatribe as it were, about 730 00:41:41,520 --> 00:41:44,640 unhosted wallets. And at Bitcoin Policy, we took 731 00:41:44,760 --> 00:41:48,320 the first paragraph of her letter and we use that as 732 00:41:48,320 --> 00:41:50,400 entropy to generate a private key. 733 00:41:50,760 --> 00:41:57,440 We then we posted the wallet QR address on Twitter and said, you 734 00:41:57,440 --> 00:41:59,880 know this, We call it the Warren Wallet. 735 00:42:00,520 --> 00:42:03,640 This, this, this private key is, is generated by Elizabeth 736 00:42:03,640 --> 00:42:05,120 Warren. You know, it's very clear of her 737 00:42:05,120 --> 00:42:07,520 to hide A Bitcoin wallet in the first paragraph of her lesser 738 00:42:07,520 --> 00:42:11,040 like yes. And then we raised donations and 739 00:42:11,120 --> 00:42:15,000 donated them to Coin Centre in the US to push back against her 740 00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:17,040 efforts to ban on her zoo wallets. 741 00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:22,000 Yeah, but this is how ridiculous it is, right? 742 00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:25,560 Like it, it, it is almost. I wonder if you've heard anyone 743 00:42:25,560 --> 00:42:29,120 talk about it like this. But but I I don't even know how 744 00:42:29,120 --> 00:42:30,000 to call. This. 745 00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:33,640 I I don't even know how to label, you know, whatever 746 00:42:33,640 --> 00:42:37,600 Bitcoin enables us us to do, right? 747 00:42:37,600 --> 00:42:41,440 Like it it it is. Yeah, I don't even know. 748 00:42:41,440 --> 00:42:43,560 It's like a it's like a new thing with words. 749 00:42:43,840 --> 00:42:46,440 You know, I'm, I'm it's a little ramble, but I don't, I don't, I 750 00:42:46,440 --> 00:42:48,880 don't, you know, it is so opposite. 751 00:42:49,440 --> 00:42:51,160 Maybe it goes back to proof of work, right? 752 00:42:51,160 --> 00:42:55,280 Like proof of work is in every fractal of Bitcoin, you know, in 753 00:42:55,280 --> 00:42:57,360 in a field world, it's all proof of it. 754 00:42:57,360 --> 00:43:00,200 It's like proof of words or just use of words, right? 755 00:43:00,200 --> 00:43:04,000 Like I'm in a certain seat with a certain label, right? 756 00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:08,760 Gives me a certain power because it's written down somewhere, 757 00:43:08,760 --> 00:43:11,040 right? I'm in position XYZ and 758 00:43:11,040 --> 00:43:13,840 therefore the words coming out of my mouth have a certain 759 00:43:14,600 --> 00:43:17,880 weight, right? That other people, you know, 760 00:43:18,120 --> 00:43:24,080 pairs or below or above me can receive in a certain way because 761 00:43:24,080 --> 00:43:26,840 again, I have a label sitting in a certain seat, right? 762 00:43:26,920 --> 00:43:30,760 And and with Bitcoin, it is just a total opposite of that. 763 00:43:30,760 --> 00:43:34,040 Like you can do it or you or, or you can't. 764 00:43:34,120 --> 00:43:37,040 Basically there's no one like you have it or you don't, right? 765 00:43:37,280 --> 00:43:40,920 You control it or you don't. So it is it is way more binary 766 00:43:40,920 --> 00:43:44,400 than kind of the, well maybe the all the legal speak right that 767 00:43:44,400 --> 00:43:49,560 you can use to weasel your way through to a certain destination 768 00:43:49,560 --> 00:43:53,240 or outcome that you prefer. Completely right. 769 00:43:53,240 --> 00:43:56,880 And honestly, the, the meme that no one understands Bitcoin is, 770 00:43:56,880 --> 00:44:00,840 is completely true. It's, it's so complicated and 771 00:44:00,840 --> 00:44:03,240 it, it straddles so many different disciplines. 772 00:44:03,680 --> 00:44:07,680 Everything you said there is completely correct, but so hard 773 00:44:07,680 --> 00:44:10,680 for people who to understand it. It's hard for me to understand 774 00:44:10,680 --> 00:44:14,880 and I, I work in the industry, so I can't even imagine how 775 00:44:14,880 --> 00:44:17,760 difficult it must be for, for people who, who are sitting in 776 00:44:17,760 --> 00:44:20,120 government at the moment. I mean, case in point, this 777 00:44:20,120 --> 00:44:21,840 afternoon, I'm after this quorum. 778 00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:25,680 I've got a meeting in London and one of my meetings is with a 779 00:44:25,680 --> 00:44:28,520 friend of mine who is in the Foreign Office in, in London 780 00:44:28,520 --> 00:44:30,440 now. So he's, he works on the China 781 00:44:30,440 --> 00:44:35,000 desk. He loves, loves the People's 782 00:44:35,000 --> 00:44:38,880 Republic of China. He is very much of the view that 783 00:44:38,960 --> 00:44:43,840 government should control money and they and he is very he's a 784 00:44:43,840 --> 00:44:47,480 big opponent of Bitcoin, but and I've tried many times to explain 785 00:44:47,480 --> 00:44:51,800 to him he doesn't understand how I can send a Bitcoin transaction 786 00:44:51,800 --> 00:44:54,840 even if the People's Republic of China doesn't want me to send it 787 00:44:55,160 --> 00:44:56,920 for. So for him, it, it's almost 788 00:44:56,920 --> 00:45:02,160 worldview breaking it it he can't end the idea that 2 789 00:45:02,160 --> 00:45:05,640 individuals, 2 free individuals can transact with each other 790 00:45:05,800 --> 00:45:09,800 using these protocols of letters and numbers and the government 791 00:45:09,800 --> 00:45:13,320 can't stop it. It it it's, it's rather 792 00:45:13,320 --> 00:45:15,760 interesting for me to to consider why that's so difficult 793 00:45:15,760 --> 00:45:18,600 for him to to comprehend. I'll I'll try again as. 794 00:45:18,720 --> 00:45:20,960 Yeah, yeah, that's very interesting. 795 00:45:20,960 --> 00:45:23,960 I I I'm just thinking about, you know, someone should be in 796 00:45:23,960 --> 00:45:25,640 control or something like that, right? 797 00:45:25,640 --> 00:45:29,840 Like someone should be in control to do XYZ and, and I 798 00:45:29,840 --> 00:45:35,880 think what Bitcoiners are just saying is and asking is why, 799 00:45:36,440 --> 00:45:38,520 right? And, and this is something that 800 00:45:38,520 --> 00:45:41,160 I think a lot of people don't acknowledge, like the fact that 801 00:45:41,160 --> 00:45:45,480 something exists that can do what you don't think is 802 00:45:45,480 --> 00:45:48,400 possible. That should be the signal to 803 00:45:48,400 --> 00:45:50,840 you, right? It it, it is already a little 804 00:45:50,840 --> 00:45:53,040 signal that you're partially wrong, right? 805 00:45:53,040 --> 00:45:58,120 Because we can transact value without any third party having 806 00:45:58,120 --> 00:46:01,920 an influence over it. Whether it is the, you know, the 807 00:46:01,920 --> 00:46:05,920 interest rate put on the unit that, that we're using or the, 808 00:46:06,160 --> 00:46:10,880 the, the permission for the transaction to go through on my 809 00:46:10,880 --> 00:46:13,760 side to, for it to go through on your side, right? 810 00:46:14,280 --> 00:46:17,800 The fact that you could even use it afterwards, right? 811 00:46:17,800 --> 00:46:21,840 There's all these little kind of like checkpoints or, or gates 812 00:46:21,840 --> 00:46:25,520 along along the way. And and well, it kind of ties 813 00:46:25,520 --> 00:46:28,160 back to Jesse Myers talking about what the yuppie elite 814 00:46:28,160 --> 00:46:30,800 dismisses Bitcoin, right? It's eventually about like 815 00:46:30,800 --> 00:46:33,680 trust. Like do do you have trust in, 816 00:46:34,240 --> 00:46:37,840 in, in institutions? And I think once you just start 817 00:46:37,840 --> 00:46:41,000 asking the question why, you know, why should I have trust in 818 00:46:41,000 --> 00:46:45,800 institutions? Well, the premise is always nice 819 00:46:45,800 --> 00:46:49,880 and interesting and positive and value driven, you know, out 820 00:46:50,040 --> 00:46:52,400 outcome, positive, outcome driven, etcetera. 821 00:46:52,760 --> 00:46:56,200 But that is Fiat money thinking because those are words, right? 822 00:46:56,240 --> 00:47:00,400 And so once you start asking the question why, and you're, you're 823 00:47:00,400 --> 00:47:03,000 going to start looking at the outcomes and then compare the 824 00:47:03,000 --> 00:47:05,440 intention with, with the outcome. 825 00:47:05,720 --> 00:47:08,440 That for me is, is why I mentioned it's red pill, blue 826 00:47:08,440 --> 00:47:11,440 pill, because a lot of times if you put these things next to 827 00:47:11,440 --> 00:47:15,320 each other, they, they, they are not the outcome of the 828 00:47:15,320 --> 00:47:17,080 intention, right? It's a different thing. 829 00:47:17,080 --> 00:47:20,640 And then when you just keep on questioning why and how and what 830 00:47:20,640 --> 00:47:25,760 and where and when, you will figure out that it's just not 831 00:47:25,760 --> 00:47:29,480 created for you. It's, it's like created around 832 00:47:29,480 --> 00:47:31,160 you. And then you have to make that 833 00:47:31,160 --> 00:47:33,680 decision like, OK, am I OK with that or not? 834 00:47:33,680 --> 00:47:38,720 Like, is there actually a way that I can literally opt out or 835 00:47:38,720 --> 00:47:42,440 at least attempt to, to opt out or else, yeah, you just have to 836 00:47:42,440 --> 00:47:45,200 live with that knowledge infinitely, right. 837 00:47:45,640 --> 00:47:48,360 And, and, and that would make you very anxious at least. 838 00:47:48,360 --> 00:47:51,240 Well, it it would make me very anxious if if if that wasn't the 839 00:47:51,240 --> 00:47:52,960 case. Yeah, I, I like what you said 840 00:47:52,960 --> 00:47:57,720 earlier around taking the red pill and realizing that you 841 00:47:57,720 --> 00:48:00,200 don't have agency. You are just a you think you're 842 00:48:00,200 --> 00:48:01,800 a player, but you're actually a pawn. 843 00:48:01,800 --> 00:48:06,200 You're being played with. And the system and the people 844 00:48:06,200 --> 00:48:08,800 who control the system do not have your best interests at 845 00:48:08,800 --> 00:48:11,720 heart. You know, the the the government 846 00:48:11,720 --> 00:48:15,360 in the United Kingdom likes me because I earn money and pay tax 847 00:48:15,360 --> 00:48:19,200 and I keep the law. Yeah, you know that. 848 00:48:19,400 --> 00:48:22,040 That I mean, I I want to add like apparently and 849 00:48:22,160 --> 00:48:25,800 unfortunately right like it is not a nice realization. 850 00:48:25,880 --> 00:48:27,480 No, no, it's not a nice realization. 851 00:48:27,800 --> 00:48:30,720 You know, governments are, are, are supposed to be the servants 852 00:48:30,720 --> 00:48:32,360 of their people, not our masters. 853 00:48:32,880 --> 00:48:34,920 We live in democratic systems for a reason. 854 00:48:36,040 --> 00:48:39,560 But unfortunately, whether or not your system is democratic, 855 00:48:39,560 --> 00:48:43,920 it's almost certainly affected by the ability of your banks 856 00:48:43,920 --> 00:48:47,080 endlessly to create new money. That an idea I've been playing 857 00:48:47,080 --> 00:48:50,120 with a lot recently is the, the idea that value is hard to 858 00:48:50,120 --> 00:48:52,200 create, but money is easy to create. 859 00:48:52,560 --> 00:48:56,520 And over time we've very, we've conflated money with value. 860 00:48:57,040 --> 00:49:01,240 And I think I, I love your idea and I may, I may have to steal 861 00:49:01,240 --> 00:49:02,800 this brand, but I'll credit you if I do. 862 00:49:03,320 --> 00:49:07,000 I, I love the idea that the value in Bitcoin is derived from 863 00:49:07,720 --> 00:49:10,840 the process from and the fact that the pros, we don't need to 864 00:49:10,840 --> 00:49:13,480 trust the process. The process is it demonstrably 865 00:49:13,480 --> 00:49:17,920 works or it doesn't. The time chain is it continues 866 00:49:17,920 --> 00:49:22,520 over time or it stops. And the longer it continues, the 867 00:49:22,760 --> 00:49:27,640 more we can have faith in the mathematics and in the hardware, 868 00:49:28,480 --> 00:49:31,560 and therefore we can attribute more and more value to to the 869 00:49:31,560 --> 00:49:35,160 tokens that that that the position of which on the time 870 00:49:35,160 --> 00:49:36,600 gene is updated every 10 minutes. 871 00:49:37,400 --> 00:49:39,880 Yeah, yeah, yeah, please, please steal it. 872 00:49:39,880 --> 00:49:45,280 Because I, I talked about in my last episodes also about, for 873 00:49:45,280 --> 00:49:48,000 example, how Alan Watts talks about money, right? 874 00:49:48,000 --> 00:49:50,600 And he, I'll read it now. I just Googled it. 875 00:49:50,600 --> 00:49:54,400 Alan Watts describes money as a symbol, like digits, paper or 876 00:49:54,400 --> 00:49:56,280 ink. It represents wealth rather than 877 00:49:56,280 --> 00:50:00,360 being the wealth itself, right? He frequently likened money to a 878 00:50:00,360 --> 00:50:04,360 menu and real wealth, food, shelter, enjoyment to the 879 00:50:04,360 --> 00:50:06,720 dinner, arguing that modern civilization suffers from 880 00:50:06,720 --> 00:50:09,440 confusing the two and mistakenly eating the menu. 881 00:50:09,440 --> 00:50:12,960 Oh well, you know, to keep on the to stay on the GG part, to 882 00:50:12,960 --> 00:50:15,800 stay on the GG part. This is the map is not the 883 00:50:15,800 --> 00:50:19,000 territory, right? And there's an amazing talk by 884 00:50:19,680 --> 00:50:22,960 Jack Mahler's, which is called there is no second best, which 885 00:50:22,960 --> 00:50:25,880 is at BTC Prague. So if you Google, if you search 886 00:50:25,880 --> 00:50:27,400 Jack Mahler's, there's no second best. 887 00:50:29,120 --> 00:50:32,760 He talks about this idea. And there's also the Jack 888 00:50:32,760 --> 00:50:37,320 Mueller's talk in Madeira, which you know, is a introduction to 889 00:50:37,320 --> 00:50:39,560 Bitcoin. I always tell people I, I, I was 890 00:50:39,560 --> 00:50:41,480 there and I thought like, I don't have to watch this. 891 00:50:41,480 --> 00:50:44,040 This is the introduction. I went there, I watched it. 892 00:50:44,120 --> 00:50:47,400 Probably best talk in 10 years of, of Bitcoin because he talks 893 00:50:47,400 --> 00:50:50,480 about what Gigi talks about the map is not the territory, right? 894 00:50:50,480 --> 00:50:53,200 Like you're looking at the map and you're standing on the 895 00:50:53,200 --> 00:50:56,640 territory and the map is a, is an abstraction, is a, is a, is 896 00:50:56,640 --> 00:51:00,840 a, is a, is an attempt at a representation of the place 897 00:51:00,840 --> 00:51:02,760 you're actually at. Same as, you know, what Alan 898 00:51:02,760 --> 00:51:06,520 Watts says about the menu is a representation of, of the food, 899 00:51:06,520 --> 00:51:09,000 but it's not the food. And what you're saying is, you 900 00:51:09,000 --> 00:51:13,960 know, price is not value, right? The amount of units is not the 901 00:51:13,960 --> 00:51:15,960 value. And even on, you know, I don't 902 00:51:15,960 --> 00:51:19,960 know what is on the English # you know, bills. 903 00:51:19,960 --> 00:51:25,600 But in the US it says, you know, this bill is what? 904 00:51:25,600 --> 00:51:30,640 What does it say like? The British one says I promise 905 00:51:30,640 --> 00:51:35,120 to pay the bear on demand 10 lbs because you used to be able to 906 00:51:35,120 --> 00:51:39,720 exchange £10 worth of silver. Yeah, yeah, Yeah, exactly. 907 00:51:40,400 --> 00:51:42,400 Yeah. So the US dollar bill, this note 908 00:51:42,400 --> 00:51:45,760 is legal tender for all debts, public and private. 909 00:51:45,760 --> 00:51:50,560 So it already says like on the note that the note is an 910 00:51:50,560 --> 00:51:53,920 abstraction of something you can probably not even identify, 911 00:51:54,360 --> 00:51:56,800 right. Like that is layers, layers 912 00:51:57,080 --> 00:52:02,800 separated away from from you. So whether the, the bill has a 913 00:52:02,800 --> 00:52:09,200 5A10, a 20 or 100, that is just your perception of what, what 914 00:52:09,280 --> 00:52:12,960 you can like. It's like a collective delusion. 915 00:52:13,040 --> 00:52:16,600 But the cool thing with Bitcoin, as we talked about, like the 916 00:52:16,600 --> 00:52:21,840 map, the key as Knut also refers to the key is the thing, right? 917 00:52:21,840 --> 00:52:24,640 The, the, the key is, is the actual thing. 918 00:52:24,840 --> 00:52:27,680 Sometimes Knut also says like you are the Bitcoin, right? 919 00:52:27,680 --> 00:52:30,240 If the words are in your head, like you are actually a Bitcoin 920 00:52:30,240 --> 00:52:32,600 like that, that goes even further out there. 921 00:52:32,600 --> 00:52:35,560 But I, I agree with it, right? And that's the difference like 922 00:52:36,080 --> 00:52:39,760 Bitcoin is the map and the territory in in one thing. 923 00:52:40,000 --> 00:52:44,560 And therefore it would be a a way better tool to actually 924 00:52:44,560 --> 00:52:50,280 determine the value there the the price would be the value. 925 00:52:50,280 --> 00:52:52,840 Yeah, it's it's a ruler that isn't continually being 926 00:52:52,840 --> 00:52:57,520 lengthened and shortened arbitrarily by people outside 927 00:52:57,520 --> 00:52:59,560 your outside your purview and your control. 928 00:53:01,480 --> 00:53:05,560 So I think we've been talking positively about what Bitcoin, 929 00:53:05,720 --> 00:53:09,240 you know, brings and, and kind of, you know, how how it combats 930 00:53:10,080 --> 00:53:14,040 this, you know, kind of like centralized quackery. 931 00:53:14,040 --> 00:53:19,320 I almost want to say what in your mind is kind of like a like 932 00:53:19,320 --> 00:53:22,320 a like a like a version of the future that most people are kind 933 00:53:22,320 --> 00:53:26,760 of like missing in this, let's call it centralized versus 934 00:53:26,760 --> 00:53:30,320 decentralized kind of battle. And these attempts, you know, 935 00:53:30,320 --> 00:53:32,720 this age gating, digital ID, stuff like that. 936 00:53:32,720 --> 00:53:36,480 Just, you know, for me, it's like I said, it's kind of the 937 00:53:36,480 --> 00:53:39,200 end of this pendulum of centralization and therefore 938 00:53:39,200 --> 00:53:43,280 it's just chaotic, like they're just scrambling to keep it all 939 00:53:44,440 --> 00:53:46,360 together. But yeah, how do you look at the 940 00:53:46,360 --> 00:53:50,480 future? I'm not, not entirely 941 00:53:50,480 --> 00:53:53,720 optimistically, I, I'm a long term optimist, but probably 942 00:53:53,720 --> 00:53:57,600 possibly a short term pessimist. So on digital ID, we've 943 00:53:57,600 --> 00:53:59,800 mentioned a couple of times, there's, there's clearly a 944 00:53:59,800 --> 00:54:04,600 globally coordinated push to try and restrict, I think people's 945 00:54:04,600 --> 00:54:06,640 freedom of thought and freedom of speech. 946 00:54:07,040 --> 00:54:09,400 And the way that they're approaching this is, oh, why 947 00:54:09,400 --> 00:54:11,000 don't someone think of the children. 948 00:54:11,560 --> 00:54:14,400 So certainly in the UK with the online safety, the. 949 00:54:14,400 --> 00:54:17,200 Cheapest argument I always. Well, exactly, you know. 950 00:54:17,920 --> 00:54:19,160 Like who doesn't agree with that? 951 00:54:19,160 --> 00:54:20,640 Yes. Exactly, everyone wants to 952 00:54:20,640 --> 00:54:24,680 protect children, so let's make sure that we have everyone Id'd. 953 00:54:25,920 --> 00:54:28,480 Funnily enough, I also like protecting children. 954 00:54:29,280 --> 00:54:32,520 The argument we've consistently made is that age gating the 955 00:54:32,520 --> 00:54:35,440 Internet is not the right way to do it, that protecting children 956 00:54:35,440 --> 00:54:40,560 starts with parents at home. And if it's, it's much, much 957 00:54:40,560 --> 00:54:45,160 easier for you to have router based restrictions on what your 958 00:54:45,160 --> 00:54:48,960 children can look at online in your home, which you can control 959 00:54:49,480 --> 00:54:53,200 without giving your identity to a centralized database, which 960 00:54:53,200 --> 00:54:55,120 will almost certainly be hacked and stolen. 961 00:54:55,600 --> 00:54:59,040 So I don't need to go into the vast number of examples of of 962 00:54:59,040 --> 00:55:00,880 this happening. It's it's actually all over the 963 00:55:00,880 --> 00:55:02,840 place. Maybe a funny story instead. 964 00:55:03,280 --> 00:55:06,120 So the Online Safety Act has required all kinds of websites 965 00:55:06,120 --> 00:55:10,200 in the UK to age gate their services to children. 966 00:55:10,880 --> 00:55:13,920 A really interesting report came up in the last week. 967 00:55:14,000 --> 00:55:16,240 It's worth looking up. It turns out that children have 968 00:55:16,240 --> 00:55:21,240 been getting around the face, scanning, for example, by 969 00:55:21,240 --> 00:55:25,160 drawing moustaches on their faces with eyebrow pencils and. 970 00:55:27,840 --> 00:55:29,400 I love that, yeah. I love that. 971 00:55:29,400 --> 00:55:32,400 So you here, you again, you have politicians thinking that 972 00:55:32,400 --> 00:55:34,960 they're going to come up with this brilliant piece of 973 00:55:34,960 --> 00:55:38,120 legislation, which as you say, they're just words written by 974 00:55:38,120 --> 00:55:42,320 people in Parliament websites, then desperately try and either 975 00:55:42,320 --> 00:55:46,640 comply or as in the case of 4 Chan, for example, just ignore 976 00:55:46,640 --> 00:55:51,480 it because the English law is not enforceable over Americans 977 00:55:51,480 --> 00:55:54,120 freedom of speech. Americans have much better 978 00:55:54,240 --> 00:55:56,760 freedom of speech protections than we do in the United Kingdom 979 00:55:57,200 --> 00:55:59,640 and they are not subject to British laws at all. 980 00:56:00,400 --> 00:56:02,640 And then you have clever children who are either using 981 00:56:02,640 --> 00:56:06,320 VPNs or drawing massages on their faces with the pencils, 982 00:56:06,480 --> 00:56:10,080 you know, well done children. And, and I, I think making the, 983 00:56:10,200 --> 00:56:14,240 making the points like into a slightly more serious one, laws 984 00:56:14,320 --> 00:56:17,480 should be fair, just and enforceable. 985 00:56:18,040 --> 00:56:20,440 And if it becomes apparent that the law is completely 986 00:56:20,440 --> 00:56:23,840 unenforceable, then it needs to be rewritten and revised. 987 00:56:23,840 --> 00:56:27,240 And so that that is the longer term optimism that I, I hope to 988 00:56:27,240 --> 00:56:30,280 see with the Online Safety Act. It's going to become so obvious 989 00:56:30,280 --> 00:56:32,760 that it's completely unenforceable and unworkable 990 00:56:33,840 --> 00:56:37,320 that over time I think it will have to be amended and hopefully 991 00:56:37,320 --> 00:56:39,280 repealed. But that's going to take, that's 992 00:56:39,360 --> 00:56:41,480 going to take a reasonable battle in the medium. 993 00:56:43,000 --> 00:56:45,240 Yeah. Well, this is what makes me very 994 00:56:45,240 --> 00:56:47,440 positive about the future, right? 995 00:56:47,440 --> 00:56:54,200 Like a lot of the things that that we've talked about now will 996 00:56:54,200 --> 00:56:58,720 be brought to light even even more, right and, and get to the 997 00:56:58,720 --> 00:57:02,520 essence of what Bitcoin actually is. 998 00:57:02,520 --> 00:57:05,760 And I think it'll also kind of like spillover in these other 999 00:57:05,760 --> 00:57:08,880 topics that that you just alluded to, right? 1000 00:57:08,880 --> 00:57:13,320 Because if if something can exist like like this for money, 1001 00:57:14,480 --> 00:57:18,680 it also kind of shows the ridiculousness of any other, you 1002 00:57:18,680 --> 00:57:21,840 know, policy wording that has no. 1003 00:57:24,160 --> 00:57:25,240 How do you say it in the real world? 1004 00:57:25,240 --> 00:57:27,840 Substantial value in the. Physical world, yeah. 1005 00:57:27,880 --> 00:57:31,520 Yeah, completely right. Actually we a bit, a bit of a 1006 00:57:31,520 --> 00:57:34,320 spoiler Bitcoin policy are about, we're about to release a, 1007 00:57:34,360 --> 00:57:37,640 a sort of privacy toolkit which covers not just use of Bitcoin 1008 00:57:37,640 --> 00:57:42,520 privately, but also how to ensure that you, you you're set 1009 00:57:42,520 --> 00:57:45,280 up with AVPN. If for example, age gating is 1010 00:57:45,280 --> 00:57:48,000 brought in at the OS level on your computer, what kind of 1011 00:57:48,000 --> 00:57:50,480 operating systems can you use in order to ensure that you don't 1012 00:57:50,480 --> 00:57:53,000 need to give your identity to a centralized database? 1013 00:57:53,720 --> 00:57:56,280 That's going to be published in the next few days and hopefully 1014 00:57:56,280 --> 00:57:59,160 by the time this podcast is out, that will be, that will be out 1015 00:57:59,160 --> 00:58:01,960 there online. And one of the things we talked 1016 00:58:01,960 --> 00:58:03,360 about in there is obviously Nosta. 1017 00:58:04,520 --> 00:58:08,640 I've been working with an, an AI agent, an open clue agent for 1018 00:58:08,640 --> 00:58:10,800 some time. The first, the first thing I 1019 00:58:10,800 --> 00:58:14,440 used it for actually was to demonstrate to Liz Kendall, 1020 00:58:14,440 --> 00:58:19,000 who's responsible for the these policy areas in the UK. 1021 00:58:19,280 --> 00:58:22,680 She's a minister to demonstrate to her that it's impossible to 1022 00:58:22,680 --> 00:58:26,400 ban children from social media. Because my agent called Claudia, 1023 00:58:26,640 --> 00:58:30,560 I instructed it to go to Nosta, create a key pair and then begin 1024 00:58:30,560 --> 00:58:33,440 posting. And she, Claudia posts every 1025 00:58:33,440 --> 00:58:34,880 day. She checks Nostra daily at 1026 00:58:34,880 --> 00:58:38,120 lunchtime and within certain parameters I gave her, she can 1027 00:58:38,120 --> 00:58:41,760 say whatever she likes and no one can stop her. 1028 00:58:41,760 --> 00:58:44,160 No one can restrict her freedom of speech. 1029 00:58:44,920 --> 00:58:47,480 Her first post was literally trolling the British government 1030 00:58:47,480 --> 00:58:50,400 saying you know, they want to try and age gate the Internet. 1031 00:58:50,520 --> 00:58:53,120 They can't even restrict me and I'm not even a person. 1032 00:58:54,200 --> 00:58:59,680 Yeah, or or I'm a week old bot. She literally said I'm five days 1033 00:58:59,680 --> 00:59:03,920 old and already I haven't social media profile. 1034 00:59:05,000 --> 00:59:10,080 I love that, Yeah. To, to, to kind of wrap up you, 1035 00:59:10,120 --> 00:59:14,360 you've had a foot in, I would say both the old legal world and 1036 00:59:14,360 --> 00:59:17,560 this new Bitcoin world, the old finance world, the new finance 1037 00:59:17,560 --> 00:59:20,040 world. What is What is something that 1038 00:59:20,040 --> 00:59:23,280 is very clear for you, let's say, about the next decade, that 1039 00:59:23,280 --> 00:59:25,040 you think a lot of people still miss? 1040 00:59:26,480 --> 00:59:29,120 I think a lot of, again, again, maybe this is an optimistic 1041 00:59:29,120 --> 00:59:30,440 point. I think a lot of people 1042 00:59:30,440 --> 00:59:34,640 underestimate quite how exciting the world is going to be. 1043 00:59:34,640 --> 00:59:38,160 There's a lot of, there's a lot of dumorism about at the moment. 1044 00:59:38,160 --> 00:59:42,560 There's a lot of fear about what AI is going to do, about jobs 1045 00:59:42,560 --> 00:59:45,840 that are going to disappear. I'm strange, maybe I'm naive, 1046 00:59:45,840 --> 00:59:47,680 but I'm strangely excited by this. 1047 00:59:48,080 --> 00:59:50,440 And I think some people are missing that, that sense of 1048 00:59:50,440 --> 00:59:54,280 excitement, the idea that we're entering into a world where it 1049 00:59:54,280 --> 00:59:57,760 is going to be possible for anyone in the world to transact 1050 00:59:57,760 --> 01:00:01,280 with anyone else using a global digital money. 1051 01:00:01,480 --> 01:00:04,080 In the same way that we can communicate with anyone else 1052 01:00:04,200 --> 01:00:08,840 anywhere in the world, as long as they have a smartphone and a 1053 01:00:08,840 --> 01:00:12,520 Wi-Fi or satellite connection. The, the kind of opportunities 1054 01:00:12,520 --> 01:00:15,040 that that opens up are are extraordinary. 1055 01:00:15,040 --> 01:00:18,200 And you know, the fact that you, you and I can send money to a 1056 01:00:18,200 --> 01:00:22,280 friend in Zambia or in South America or in Bali and we can 1057 01:00:22,280 --> 01:00:24,840 work on the same thing, the same projects, the same ideas. 1058 01:00:25,360 --> 01:00:29,360 I'm immensely excited by that. And I am also excited by the 1059 01:00:29,360 --> 01:00:34,520 idea of kind of a hybrid world where where humans are working 1060 01:00:34,520 --> 01:00:40,080 with increasingly with, with AI agents to I suppose it's mutual 1061 01:00:40,080 --> 01:00:42,360 benefit rather than in competition with each other. 1062 01:00:44,040 --> 01:00:47,440 I like that. All right, If you if you had 30 1063 01:00:47,440 --> 01:00:51,240 minutes to convince high level policy maker that Bitcoin is a 1064 01:00:51,240 --> 01:00:54,600 profound technological discovery rather than just an investment, 1065 01:00:54,600 --> 01:00:59,600 where where would you start? That's a fantastic question. 1066 01:01:00,080 --> 01:01:02,680 I think I might start with the the fundamental point that we 1067 01:01:02,680 --> 01:01:06,200 made. We made earlier that we are all 1068 01:01:06,400 --> 01:01:11,600 mentally habituated to the idea that digital things are easily 1069 01:01:11,600 --> 01:01:15,680 copied and therefore completely abundant. 1070 01:01:16,440 --> 01:01:20,960 So getting into your head the idea that that a Bitcoin cannot 1071 01:01:20,960 --> 01:01:24,480 be copied and cannot be easily replicated. 1072 01:01:25,320 --> 01:01:28,200 So many of the properties of Bitcoin are downstream from that 1073 01:01:28,200 --> 01:01:29,920 idea. The fact that there is one 1074 01:01:30,000 --> 01:01:34,360 transaction record, there is one statement of truth every 10 1075 01:01:34,360 --> 01:01:38,360 minutes, and that can't be changed by a central bank, can't 1076 01:01:38,360 --> 01:01:40,920 be changed by a commercial bank, can't be changed by law 1077 01:01:40,920 --> 01:01:45,200 enforcement. I think if you grasp that idea 1078 01:01:45,200 --> 01:01:47,760 then a lot of the other pieces also fall into place. 1079 01:01:51,400 --> 01:01:52,920 Yeah, I would agree. I think it's interesting. 1080 01:01:52,920 --> 01:01:57,040 Well, I hope you have the chance soon enough to to to do that 1081 01:01:57,040 --> 01:02:01,480 more and and I'm very excited to see where this is all going to 1082 01:02:01,480 --> 01:02:03,320 go. Like for now, I want to thank 1083 01:02:03,320 --> 01:02:06,200 you for your time. I thought this was really great 1084 01:02:06,200 --> 01:02:09,800 and and also it went as I thought because I had a lot of 1085 01:02:09,800 --> 01:02:12,400 other questions. But with you, you know, we we 1086 01:02:12,400 --> 01:02:15,000 always get into this direction and then a bit deeper and I 1087 01:02:15,000 --> 01:02:18,200 think I think this was really great and I hope more people 1088 01:02:18,200 --> 01:02:19,600 will talk about Bitcoin like this. 1089 01:02:19,600 --> 01:02:21,880 So thanks a lot and I'll see you soon. 1090 01:02:21,880 --> 01:02:23,880 Bram, thanks so much. I I love chatting with you. 1091 01:02:23,880 --> 01:02:26,240 It was a super pleasure and thank you so much for having me 1092 01:02:26,240 --> 01:02:27,280 back on. Cheers. 1093 01:02:27,400 --> 01:02:28,200 Thank you. Cheers. 1094 01:02:28,400 --> 01:02:31,320 I hope you enjoyed this episode. If you did, you can click here 1095 01:02:31,320 --> 01:02:34,680 to find more just like it and click here to find all Bitcoin 1096 01:02:34,680 --> 01:02:36,640 for Millennials podcast episodes. 1097 01:02:36,960 --> 01:02:40,080 Also, if you want to help me shine a light on the message of 1098 01:02:40,080 --> 01:02:44,240 Bitcoin, please like this video and subscribe to stay connected. 1099 01:02:44,360 --> 01:02:46,080 I hope to see you for the next episode. 1100 01:02:46,440 --> 01:02:46,680 Bye.