Hey there, this is Palm Constant and you're listening to Bitcoin
for Millennials. Together with my guests on this
podcast, I go on a journey to discover how our current
financial system works, why it's flawed, and why Bitcoin is the
most relevant technology that you should understand and adopt.
Today I'm joined by Thomas Ferrer.
He's the Co founder of Apollo Platform on the Lightning
Network that allows bitcoiners to review products they love,
find those they can trust, and earn Bitcoin in the process.
I really love Thomas's tweets and the memes that he posts
about Bitcoin, which are great way to communicate the core
message of why we actually Bitcoin.
The money we use is broken. Welcome Thomas.
This is actually round two, man. Yeah, we talked before.
Great to chat with you again. Yeah, yeah.
We talked before for like an hour and then realized that's
all the uploading and all the syncing didn't go very well.
So we're trying. We're trying again.
So thanks. Thanks for coming on again.
I first want to do like a quick check like which generation do
you belong to? Are you a millennial or?
Yeah. I'm a millennial.
Yeah. So how how do you find your your
your efforts on on educating millennials like how how's that
going for you? Well, look, I mean, I think that
millennials are by far the most receptive generation.
To Bitcoin or maybe Gen. Z.
But you know, the younger, the younger you get, the more
receptive you are to Bitcoin and the less money you have to
invest in it. But yeah, I mean look, you know
one of the things that sort of interesting is that millennials
are really the first, the first generation to.
Predominantly take up Bitcoin. It's still not massive amongst
our generation but when when you go to like Bitcoin meetups and
this sort of thing it's people our age predominantly and that's
it's actually not like that surprising because technology
always seems to go this way. I was, I was just like curious
about this kind of digging into it is it's.
It's fascinating actually how if you look at Internet adoption,
it was exactly the same. If you if you look at if you
looked at if you looked at Internet adoption in say
19981999, the number of people over 50 that had ever used the
Internet, it was like it was like one in 10 people they they
they did surveys on this stuff. So to so there's like a pretty
good record of this, but at the same time when it's like, you
know, it's minuscule, it's 10% of people, 50 plus.
But then you know in 1998 it was like 45% for people in the 25 to
40 range. So it had, it was already there
and it was being adopted, but you know, not not by older
people and it's it's a pretty normal arc for technology.
So I don't think you know well Bitcoin's proving to be very
similar. Yeah, I personally find it's
very inspiring when I see like older, older people who are
already like into into Bitcoin, who had like a career in the
traditional finance world, right.
And eventually kind of like saw saw Bitcoin.
Like, I know, I don't know because I didn't experience it.
But I I can understand, like, why it's very hard.
You know, Like, I think even for us it's been hard.
And personally, I think sometimes it's still hard.
You know, like you, you grew up in a certain system that you
never really doubted, doubted, right.
And now when you adopt something different, you still run into
that old, like, those old learnings, right?
So yeah, it's interesting to see these different generations.
Yeah, I mean, look, it's it's always so impressive when you do
me the. Relatively rare, but you know
the like the boomers that have have picked up Bitcoin and it
what I see in sort of that generation is that they're very
receptive to the problem that they just haven't necessarily
got or figured out that Bitcoin is the solution.
But they're very receptive, you know, they understand like.
Way more people. There are way more people that
understand the problem that Bitcoin solves than there are
bitcoins out there. But you know the the the rare
ones that can put both both together, well, you know, it's
it's very fortunate for them and and for their their kids as well
I guess but. But I would agree, yeah, I think
more people at least feel there is a problem, right?
They they are. Well, hopefully people get
triggered and they start like researching the problem.
We'll have some tweets from you later on where there's like some
nice illustrations of the problem.
But yeah, I agree. And I think also, you know, I
really want to talk to you also about like how you, you know,
try to educate people and mean Bitcoin into existence,
basically. And I think it's really nice how
you focus on talking, I think more about the problem than than
about Bitcoin. That's actually the solution,
right? I think that's really good
because if people don't understand the problem, then
they will never find that threads that that could, you
know, lead them to what we think is the solution, right?
For sure. I mean, the problem is top of
the funnel because nobody, nobody cares about.
Like it's Bitcoin is interesting in intricacies of how it works.
It's very interesting for, you know, somebody that's already a
Bitcoin, or it's endlessly fascinating, but you can't talk
to somebody about the details of.
The way the way the network operates they don't want to like
you can't go to somebody that you just can't you just can't
open with the difficulty adjustment.
It just doesn't do anything for a regular, a regular person and
and it's perfectly understandable it really, it
really shouldn't. It's far too abstract a concept.
So it's it's I mean it's always like this is it's not even a
Bitcoin issue. It's actually just a
communication issue. You should just always start
with. Why?
Like why should I care about what you have to say And then
when you know, dig into it, you can explain.
You can explain how Bitcoin is a solution but if you don't start
with why, nobody will, nobody will be interested.
So, and it's also, you know, the way the way like social media
works is that. You you do need to have that
kind of ability to connect with a lot of different people to
kind of be attracted to your idea in order for it to spread.
So it it it doesn't necessarily, it's not a great meet like
Twitter is not really the place to go on a deep dive into the
the intricacies of the network because it's never going to have
that kind of. Viral potential that the problem
will because that's just immediately understandable for
for a much greater group of people.
So what? What made you first become
interested in investing finance? And like, what led you to to
Bitcoin? Yeah, well, look, I mean, I I
was someone like like a lot of people, it just took a lot of a
lot of touch points. You know, I first I first came
across. Bitcoin, when I was studying it,
I studied. Actually I did, I did like my
thesis on Bitcoin at university and I I was just interested in
it from it because at the time it was like the most volatile
asset the world had basically ever seen, you know?
And since then, there's been like a lot of cryptocurrencies
that you know. Come up but at the at the time
it was it was interesting even just just for the the volatility
of it and I I just I just found the the the statistics about
that very interesting so I started I started looking at
that and then I what did you study well.
I did. I did finance and economics, but
like sort of like looking at it from like a numerical techniques
or statistical point of view. But so I moved, you know after
university, I moved into sort of the traditional finance space
and that's when I actually really started to properly
understand what problem become solving.
Because when I first looked at it, I just thought it was kind
of interesting thing, but I didn't really.
I thought it was fascinating, but I didn't really understand
the why we really even needed it.
I it was more it was like, OK, it's this alternative payment
network, but. We've already got a payment
network like you know and IT and it and what we have you know
feels like it works pretty well. But then when I got into
investments and the world started to essentially you know
particularly we we're at this point in time where interest
rates are zero and you have this massive appreciation of assets
across actually everything it was like.
It was called, it was in every kind of institutional conference
You went to whatever it was called, the everything bubble.
Everybody could see it. Bonds, bonds that had this 40
year bull market, equities were just constantly running up to
sort of really high level, you know high PES and all that
stuff. And it was like, hey, there's a
basically a bubble in everything.
You know, you've got Ray Dalio out there going cash is trash.
And that's the kind of stuff that I guess started to make my
make me interested in what's what's happening here.
And then, you know, I was talking to an asset manager
who's who's like he was kind of talking his book about it, about
his stocks. But what he was saying was.
Basically, the market's going to pump.
The market's going to pump and he's talking about equities.
But he was, he was banging the table in a room, I'm talking to
him and he was banging the table And he's like, I'm like why?
And he's like well we're about to start start QE two and he's
like pointing to these charts of QE one and he's and he's you
know showing me basically when they do QE the stock, the stock
market, stock market pumps and QE is the quantitative easing,
right. It's the the printing of money.
It's money printing, but it they the problem is is that but they
call it differently. Right.
They call, you know, essentially.
Yeah, what what they do is they they give it these fancy names
so that it's not immediately obvious to the public about what
they're doing. You know, it's we're we're doing
some monetary engineering. It's based on our zero interest
rate policy. We're going to do some
quantitative easing. Like what?
What? Oh, you're printing money.
OK, but that wasn't. But once that that, that started
to come clear, it's like, OK, the central banks are printing
money. It's causing an asset bubble and
everything. And then, you know, 2017 came
around and it was just this big wake up.
I feel like 2017 was the real coming out party for Bitcoin in
a way to. Tell the world that Bitcoin was
was this serious thing to to take notice of you know all like
all you know all the people that believed in it well before 17
you know all power all power to them But you you really had to
deeply understand the problems of of Fiat money that I, I that
wasn't like. It wasn't necessarily obvious to
me at that point in time, but it started to become really obvious
around that point in time. And you know, I just had to, I
had to evaluate at in 17. And you know, thereon after I
started to evaluate, I had to revisit some of my earlier
assumptions about Bitcoin. And Bitcoin has this sort of
funny property to it. Where?
It's kind of an ego test because everybody, everybody that like
actually it's it's it's one of the sort of interesting unique
properties of it that literally everybody that buys Bitcoin
could have bought Bitcoin much earlier at a much cheaper price.
Like there's no that's that's it doesn't matter what price you
bought at. You could have got a lot more
Bitcoin at a much cheaper price, but.
You decided not to if you understood it earlier.
Yeah, if you understood it earlier, but it's, you know,
every person, there's basically nobody that first comes in touch
with Bitcoin and then goes, yeah, yeah, I'm going to like
that's not really a thing. That's not really a thing.
You you you have to have multiple touch points and it it
creates, it is. It is essentially an ego thing
where you have to go. Well I just missed it before,
but was I wrong? And you have to be like, you
know, intellectually honest and sort of, you know, have a, you
know, a small enough ego humility.
Yeah, the humility, Exactly. You have to have some humility
to be able to say, yeah, I mean, I screwed up before, actually, I
was wrong. Like I wish there wasn't, but I
was. I was wrong in the past.
And so you have to, you have to be able to learn from that and
that. You know, not everybody can
handle that, right? That creates a certain kind of
derangement syndrome for like a few, like a, like a, you know, a
small percentage of the population.
So that's why you still have certain people, you know, like
Peter Schiff would be sort of a walking billboard of this, which
is like a gold bug, yeah. Not just a gold bug, but you
just he's in like. I just think that he's gonna
he's the type that like because he he could have and he should
have potentially gotten so much earlier it won't matter.
Like, he'll be the one of the last people to ever buy Bitcoin
because it's just too it's too emotionally painful to accept
the mistakes you made in the past and.
It really is the kind of what it does is it creates cognitive
dissonance in people. I was talking to a gold bug,
actually, and he was saying, you know, I was talking about how
really you have to essentially your unit of account should be
Bitcoin, right? That's the opportunity cost of
all your investments. And his response was well.
You know if if Bitcoin, Bitcoin is if, if.
If that's the case, then look at look at my, my home.
It's gone from from you know, 20,020 thousand Bitcoin to 10
Bitcoin in the last decade. Yeah.
And and you know when I, when I listen and it's like, yeah, you
want to and it's like, yeah. And you want to hold a deflation
like you want to hold Bitcoin because of that.
Like it's like, yes. But his his logic is like, well
then I'm down, yeah. You know, it's like, clearly
it's like, well, it's a broken, like it's a like, no, clearly,
it's just a bad network. Like, it's like the Bitcoin must
be broken if that's the case. Like, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's.
Just a it's just a cognitive dissonance is what it is.
So you know, in some ways the people that there, there will be
a whole class of people, probably the boomers actually
who never. Or even really significantly
thought about investing in bitcoins.
They're not going to have that baggage of, you know,
particularly when it just becomes available via say the
ETFs, right. There's going to be a whole
bunch of people that they weren't going to buy it, you
know, the way the way you and I bought it and they weren't.
They don't want to self custody their Bitcoin because they're
just scared of technology. And they're they're scared
they're going to lose it themselves.
So they they never seriously thought about it before.
So they're not going to have that kind of baggage that has
been holding them back in the past and now it's just going to
be when that when it does happen and it's like oh, I can just buy
it with my trade account the same way I buy it I buy stocks.
It's going to they don't have to like understand, understand
right. They they they will stay like
few layers separated probably. Yeah.
And that and it's and that's that's that's true for people,
but it's also very importantly true for institutions because
you know there are just, there's a whole class of investors that
have the majority of the capital that you know, there's no
realistic way for them to invest in Bitcoin in a sort of.
Self self custodial manner because it's like you you go to
these you know 12 boomers sitting on a board of a pension
fund and it's like Oh yeah, we're we're going to set up a
multi sig for you and it's like what?
Like no, I don't want to do that.
I don't want to be responsible for it and it's just they're
not, they're not used to that, so.
They don't. They're not going to have any
kind of emotional baggage with Bitcoin's past because they
never could have invested in it. But once they start, you know
what? What?
What's happening?
Is this easier and easier investment vehicles.
And when they have the opportunity to invest in it,
it's just going to be like it's just going to be.
Is it solving the problem for me?
Oh, well, yeah. And that's and that's a question
they have to face. But they will.
They will probably only look at like the kegger or the ROI they
missed. And then they will be like, OK,
I need to have this thing. Yeah, I really like what you say
about let's let's mention the lots with the people that I
talked to, like these multiple touch points, right.
Like you wrote your thesis about Bitcoin and only a few years
later you really got into it, right?
Like that says a lot. Like you already spent multiple
hours researching this, right? And you still didn't get it.
And that's why I I think this is an important message because
like once you get it and you look back, you know, then you
can say things like you just said.
Like it's about humility. It's an ego thing.
It is hard to understand and I think for people who listen to
us and other bitcoiners who you know just see Bitcoin as well, I
I kind of say like it's it's it's.
Almost. It's engineered ultimate truth,
right? It's just a thing, you know, and
it sounds so ridiculous and I didn't think I would ever say
this like four years ago, right. But but you know, here, here I
am and I think that looking back, of course it's easier.
And that's also I think a challenge for us when we talk
about this or like our own journey that we do give like
context so that it's not looking down on people that don't get it
right because we also didn't get it.
You spent probably 100 plus hours on your thesis and you
still didn't get it right. So that's totally OK.
I mean it took me, I would say more than seven years or
something to really, really get it and I'm still learning
everyday, right. So I think that's a very
important message that it's not, it's not, it's not coming from a
place of like superiority or something.
Like I understand it and you don't know.
It's just really hard. And I think that in general the
message about, you know, helping people to to start studying
Bitcoin is honestly, I think very altruistic.
Like please do it, you know, please dive in more because it
is just really hard. But once you start to understand
it and also start to not Unsee it anymore, right, then I think
that will accelerate, right? Like, I think you only need like
one or two things where you're like, wow, really, does it work?
Like, does it work like that? You know, whether it's about the
old system of or or or Bitcoin. And then you will accelerate in
in all your effort of studying, I think.
Because then you really want to know more, right?
There's this like place in between where I think you know
people will will all dive in further.
Like what? What was that for you?
Like what's what's like the biggest thing that you that you
cannot Unsee anymore, whether understanding Bitcoin or also
the stuff outside? Well, I mean there's a there's a
lot. I think there's there's a lot of
different layers to it. One is all the the the Fiat, the
Fiat problems. I mean understanding like.
Fiat is actually going to Infinity.
And like not, not not in like 500 years time, but like
actually, well, some people, you know, we don't know for sure.
But it it might be this decade and it might not be this decade,
it might be in the next, certainly going to be in our
lifetime. Yeah.
And when you say Infinity, you mean the amount of money.
Right. I mean it's and therefore also
the value. Down right.
I mean the value of course yes the the value declines as the as
the supply increases but that that's only one angle to it
because what was probably maybe. More important for me to
understand is what makes Bitcoin.
Why isn't like, the thing about the thing about the arc of
technology is that there's always like a new thing that
comes along that replaces the old thing.
You know, Facebook replacing Myspace and it's like, well,
it's like, OK, I get the idea about.
Cryptocurrency, say, but isn't Bitcoin just like a version one
that's going to be replaced by the next thing?
Because I think that there's a lot of people that get get stuck
on that sort of point and that that was that was probably one
of the issues for me where it was, you know, understanding.
At that point in time particularly, I didn't
necessarily have a good enough understanding of open source
software, I guess as a whole. And understand, you know, this
idea that we will like Bitcoin is as good as we can possibly
make it today and in the future if there are new technologies
that come along to like, if there's a way to make.
Better money in the future, which which there might be in
some way, in the sense of something we cannot imagine
about the way the way the networks operate a way to make
way to make it better. What?
What it takes, What I now understand, which I didn't back
then, is that yes, that's what that will be immediately grafted
onto Bitcoin like. Whatever whatever new kind of
technological discoveries we can make along the way that's just
going to make Bitcoin stronger and better.
So it it it it's like how you know the the the right analogy
is going Bitcoin is like the Internet.
Everything just makes the Internet bigger and stronger and
better. We're not we're not going to
build a second second Internet and it's and it's just finding
that right understanding about. That versus, oh, we're going to
find something better and it's going to replace Bitcoin.
It's like, no, nothing's going to replace Bitcoin.
But when you know, humans do have a way of discovering new
technologies that that can make things more efficient and make
things better. And when that happens, Bitcoin
is going to take all those superpowers.
So that was something that was because then then that's when
you realize. Like Bitcoin isn't isn't isn't
going to be replaced by a new technology.
It just makes Bitcoin stronger. So just Bitcoin just gets
stronger over time. And then look, it is nothing.
The whole process is a constant discovery.
There's no one point where your conviction is like.
You know, signed and done. It's just, it's just like oh,
but what if this and you have to do a deep dive and try and get
get to the bottom of all these deep fundamental problems.
Which is why, like there are so many different types of queries
of lines of attack against Bitcoin that people have
addressed over the years and the thing that is.
Sort of great for say, today is just that when you have, when
you have, when you can think up a potential problem with it,
well, there's somebody that also that's already thought about
that problem 10 times over and it's been debunked.
But that wasn't so true. You know, like May it, it wasn't
true even five years ago. I would say it's certainly not
ten years ago where you had such a vast.
Deep amount of resources that you know like well, like now,
bit Bitcoin, podcasts and videos and books are all abundant.
But that wasn't a thing that wasn't a thing 5-10 years ago,
right? No, you kind of had to figure it
out yourself and that makes it a lot, a lot harder.
But now, now it's just the the sea of information there it's
like. If you're willing to do it, if
you're willing to learn, it's all available.
It's all there for you. So that's what you know like and
we're all, we're all so fortunate to be able to lean on
each other like that like that's that's that's what makes it
interesting as well because it's a mutual value exchange right.
Like it's not a 0 sum thing. Like I'm me making a podcast,
you building a Bitcoin company. Like we both try to add value
and we get value from it when you know, the network grows
bigger, we educate more people, more people use it, etcetera,
right. So it's not as in perhaps like a
Fiat world where there's a lot of 0 some games actually, and
people use it using each other for single benefits, not mutual
benefits, right? Yeah, it's a social network.
It's a social network in in every sense of in every sense of
the word. Not not just for, you know at
at. It's at it's core.
It's it's an idea that's that's shared by everybody.
That's why, that's why. Like, it's it's the people that
make that make Bitcoin. It's not the machines and well,
that's what that's something that people don't.
That's that's like that's one of the issues that people don't
necessarily understand because they think let me just just
change the code because it's just, it's just lines of code
and code is easily manipulated and it's like yeah, you can
change the, you can change the code but you won't be able to
you know, you can. You know, I try to explain this
to people by it's like you can fork Christianity if you want.
Like, you can have your own, you can have your own religion where
you know, yeah, you can take out three sins, right?
Or something, yeah. Yeah, exactly.
You can. Yeah, exactly.
You can create all kinds of funky, funky rules and for
Christianity. But the problem is, is that how
do you convince people? And it's very well.
If you think it's better, you should try it, right.
That's also the the, the comments that a lot of people
share when you know, you see these people from Greenpeace,
they talk about change the code of Bitcoin.
Bitcoin is destroying the world. You know they're I personally
think it's very malicious like they're using studies that have
been debunked etcetera. But the entire point is, what is
funny is they don't understand Bitcoin and they have this
opinion because what they can do is they can just change the code
themselves because it is open source.
They can copy Bitcoin, change what they think is bad and start
Greenpeace, you know, Bitcoin, the Greenpeace version.
But they are actually not they. They are not right.
But that proves the point. Of it.
Well, it's it's funny on so many levels because not only could
they do it, but if they actually did any research, they would
find that, yeah. Like it has been done.
Like Bitcoin Proof of Proof of Stake exists.
You know Bitcoin Proof of Stake. It doesn't.
There's no, there's no network adoption there.
Because as an idea it sucks and everybody knows that.
So you can't, you can, you can change the code to be Bitcoin
Proof of stake. I mean, people have already done
that, but it it doesn't. Give you any value or create any
value because, no, you can't convince everybody else to go
along with your story. Yeah.
And it's also back to that example of the Internet that you
gave, right? Like in the beginning it was
obscure and, you know, like people didn't see the value,
etcetera. But the longer something exists
and the more the more people join that network, the more
beneficial and relevant it becomes for you to start
studying it, right. So, So you will in a way get
sucked into it if enough, quote UN quote, you know people around
you. And that could also be true, you
know, constant content that you consume, right.
Actually see it and start participating it and and seeing
the the benefit of it or the value that it gives them, right.
So that's I think in general. So I don't know if that's the
theory behind like the technology S curve, right?
But there's always early adopters and people who build,
and then they show more people and then it just compounds over
time. Yeah, I mean, the longer, I mean
1/3 of the world, that's crazy. It is.
Then this is born after Bitcoin. Bitcoin, right.
Like, you know, it starts to. That's why.
That's why Gen. Z people.
Generally are going to be much more and and are much more
receptive to Bitcoin because it doesn't it doesn't seem foreign
to them. It's actually always been around
and it and if you and if you don't have to unlearn a whole
bunch of ideas and select, oh OK, it's just another currency
like all the other currencies except that it's decentralized
and it's a fixed supply, and then you start.
Then then you can just start doing some basic maths on it and
go oh OK, it's a big supply of 21 million and the other one's
got Infinity attached to it. So where would I want to put my
money and it I think that yeah that definitely like that Lindy
effect. The longer the longer it goes,
the harder it is for anybody to really.
Question. And it's not.
That's not a Bitcoin thing. That's just true of of all
ideas, really. In general, Yeah, you just said
unlearn. What's like the main thing you
think people need to unlearn before they can understand
Bitcoin? Well, look, I mean, I think that
there's a lot of people, particularly in the older
generations, that they're just like, well, it can't be money
unless it's like there's this idea that.
It's only the it's only possible to have money if the government
deems it money. Like there's there's it's it's a
it's a it's a wrong idea actually.
But yeah, it's it's it's we decide what the money is, right?
Yeah, I mean it's well in prison.
The cigarettes are money. That's I like that example.
Because the the even though they are in a centralized, controlled
system, the prisoners still figure out how to exchange value
with each other. You know, whatever that value,
whatever the value is that they exchanged.
They denominated in, well, cigarettes, for example.
I I think it's now that that's such an important idea and I I
think it's really interesting how a lot of younger generation
people get it because they played, you know, computer games
and there's a lot of games out there that have their kind of.
Something like, you know when I was younger I played this game
Diablo two and in in this game in this world where you where
you know you build up your character and you have different
items and all the there's an economy that that builds in the
network people. And what happens is that there's
no top down centralized government controlling the the
world of Diablo Two. It's just it's an emergent
phenomenon. And what what happens in that,
in that what happened, you know, when I was playing that game is
that currencies emerge within the game like where a certain
item start to be traded like like money, because it's
actually much more convenient for.
And it money is just so important and so useful in
society. So we don't have to be like
bothering with each other like I want to give you.
You know, my sword for your shield?
It's like, well, is that the really worth?
It's like, well, what if we've got this, this like stone that
we all recognize as money, Then that that that can make, you
know, that makes things just so much more convenient and easy
for trade. So money just emerges naturally.
And if you see it, you know you can read.
You can read that. But you're not convinced.
But once you've experienced that in the real world, like if you
went to jail and you know, had cigarettes, or if you, you know,
had some kind of computer simulation of it where you're
actually in in in a digital world and you witnessed the
emergence of money, you're going to learn a lot faster so.
I actually do think and it it it's it's quite amusing to me
because I've seen a lot of bitcoiners actually talk about
playing Diablo two and have how that like I've I've seen
Breedlove and a whole bunch of other bitcoiners talking about
that and Gigi talking about that as well.
And it it it, it's just like you get this sort super interesting
snapshot of real world economics but speed up, because in in
Inside the Game there was. You have an evolution, you know,
an emergence of a money and then what?
And then what happens in any kind of system where you have
money, people start going, how do I create more of that money?
And then and then you get a hyperinflation of the money and
then and then a new money comes up as a result.
That's harder than that money. And you just live through.
You live through. Reality, but like really, really
quickly. I really like this example
because I think you mentioned Robert Breedlove, right?
He has the podcast What, What is Money?
His entire podcast is about the question, what is money, right?
Because it's such a big question.
I kind of follow the definition, You know, like money is a a
technology or something that we use to exchange value with each
other, right? But when people think about
money, they think about the dollar bills, right?
Or the Euro bills. But that's a currency, right?
So I I like the gaming example because once you can trade in a
certain context, trade whatever you deem has value, right?
Whether in game items, whether locally I trade my orange juice
for your breads, whatever. People will find a way to find
like a third thing that will represent the value.
Because I don't always want your breadth or you don't always want
my orange juice or your shield or sword or whatever.
And I think that's a really good threat for people to also like
pull on, right. Because if you agree with that
and then you think further, right.
OK. Well, but if the dollars or the
EUR that are used? That I use are defined as money.
Who controls the money, right? Or who should decide what that
money is worth? Should the people who use the
technology decide that like in the Diablo game, right?
Or should a third party some institution with other people
that I don't know? Should they decide what the
money is worth, Right. And once you start like kind of
asking those questions, I think you you start taking those
little steps towards towards at least understanding like the
system that you are in some way forcibly part of and also
questioning your own beliefs. Like, did I understand that
before? No.
What do I actually think about it?
Well, makes me uneasy, right? But damn, now I have to do
something right. You can stay ignorant, but I
think at one point you cannot be consciously ignorant anymore,
right? Because the money affects your
day-to-day or weekly life and your interactions and and your
hopes and dreams or children or whatever.
Like it. It it's, you know, permeates
everywhere. Yeah, and the thing that's.
The thing that the thing about money is that it's there is an
exchange rate that people can see like it's so in your face
with Bitcoin, so whatever, whatever a point you became
aware about it. Fast forward 5-10 years in the
exchange, you know. Inevitably, Bitcoin is, you
know, 10 to 100 times more valuable than than what it was
at at one point. And it's really hard to ignore
that forever. Like it's it's just extreme.
Like that's why I think that's such a big reason why we get
these kind of waves of adoption, I mean.
Yes, there's like, of course there's like a greed element to
it, right? And you know, there's always
fear and greed. But I don't think it's as simple
as like fear and greed. Because what also happens is
there's waves of understanding and you know when, when, when
Bitcoin like in the next sort of bull run and Bitcoin starts, you
know bitcoin's at 100,000 and higher or whatever.
All these people that were looking at it, it's such a.
Catalyzing moment for them to question their existing priors
because you once you've looked at it and then got you know
dismissed it and then you're satisfied that it's died and now
you've been like really happy that you dismissed it.
Yeah, and then it comes back. That's such a glass shattering
moment for. Everybody I think.
I think every bitcoiner has had that experience to some extent
and and and every person will and it it it's particularly as
well because Bitcoin is this social network and So what what
happens also when the price goes up is you know more and more
people are are into it and it starts to be like is it kind of.
Acceptable for me to be a part of this network and you don't.
You know, like only certain types of individuals want to
want to be in at the very, very beginning because they don't
want. You know, only certain types of
people want to be doing things that most people are not.
You know, you know, like and and and for various different
reasons from if you're like an investment, an investor, you
just have career risk. I mean, even if you're if you're
managing like a pension fund or something, you might even be
buying Bitcoin yourself. But that's why Plan B is
anonymous. Yeah.
Well, yeah, I mean exactly. It's like you might even be you
might even be buying it yourself, but it's like.
Why would I take, you know, I know it's going to be volatile.
I was like, why would I sort of take that risk myself?
But over time, the career risk goes away because more and more
people see it as being acceptable.
I mean, once you have kind of head of Black Rock being like,
you know, yeah, I like Bitcoin. I believe in Bitcoin.
It's like, well, it's hard to laugh at somebody for believing
in Bitcoin because it's like you're going to, you know, so.
And that's just, that's true in every, every step of the way.
I mean, that was true in in 2020 when Michael Saylor really got
into Bitcoin big time, and then a whole bunch of other dismissed
it before big time as well. He dismissed it before.
I mean that's, that's what I mean to illustrate like that's
normal. Yeah, yeah, you know, it's like.
Well look, as more people you respect come into it, the fear
of being doing something stupid goes away.
And that, and that's also why like you know, like Twitter or X
is so important for people because.
When you have that kind of network online of bitcoiners,
that's like a constant reminder, like no matter what happens to
the price, like you're not, you're not crazy like you.
It's easy to kind of like question yourself because you
think you see something that you know, you walk around the
streets and most people in in you, most people you meet don't
see what you see and you think you see something.
Quite extraordinary. And then it's like it's easy to
question yourself, but when you have so many people that like
like minded people on in your kind of digital world, it
provides that reassurance, which is what, which is what everybody
needs actually. So a few weeks ago I went to my
first Bitcoin conference ever in Amsterdam and and went to this
talk and the whole room was packed.
I couldn't find the seat anymore, so I had to like stand
in the back and like the hallway and look in.
And at that point I actually realized, like damn, all these
people see what I see. This is very cool actually to be
amongst those people and I had a lot of conversations with lots
of different people with lots of different backgrounds and just
really, really nice to do get some confirmation right that
you're not crazy and and see something and yeah, I love that.
And also I think what I what I I love what you said about you
know and is he someone from BlackRock or Fidelity.
You know these people say like Bitcoin can transcend currencies
and it's exponential gold etcetera.
You know, like that sounds like promoting and shilling it a bit,
right? Obviously because they want to
launch ETFs. But I also I personally have
like experience in in traditional finance as well and
I walked around in these corporate companies like stuff
like that does not get said before they absolutely no even
they convinced the the legal lady who's in in in the tower on
the 11th floor in the corner where you know you come with
your new project or idea and say like this is what I want to do.
And then she she's very strict. You know I will say why do you
want to do that right. Like they convinced all these
people and they took along all these stakeholders within this
company for their investors all these things like they don't say
this for nothing. So they understand, you know and
for me that's like also a nice confirmation in the sense like
I'd rather for those companies not to have Bitcoin and it's
only you know, just citizens like us who who hold the Bitcoin
and not these corporations. But when you hear something like
that, you have to really think about, you know, like they
actually they know like they understand they will never say
these things without actually understanding, you know.
And that's that's something that I thought about when when you
just talked. And also what I think is a good
awakening moment is people go to, it's probably free.
But if you go to tradingview.com, which is like a
trading chart tool, we talked about like price and value,
right. And when in the beginning you
talked about like houses going up, but the houses go up in the
number of the currency, right. And when you say like the
currencies will go to Infinity, it's mainly the the units will
go to Infinity, but the value will go down, right.
So the value of a house or houses has not really changed.
Yes. The price, the number people
see, right. The value.
Yeah, A house is not more important than 100 years ago,
right. A roof and walls and and
windows. So I saw this British hotel
share this on Twitter. If you go to tradingview.com and
you first take like S&P 500, NASDAQ Gold Housing Market Index
and you put it in price, you see it, it's all going up, right?
So the units of the of the currency, they're all going up.
But when you put it in M2, which is the money supply, everything
is down. You can pick any any assets, any
big category of assets and everything is down except one.
And that is just so crazy to see.
Like that really doesn't make this an opinion, right?
Like it's actually, it's actually happening.
And I would love to share that with more people.
Like when when people like you and I talk like this about
Bitcoin, it's not, it's not opinions like this is actually
happening all outside of our influence.
This is already happening, right?
So please look at that. If you don't want to listen to a
person, just look at that screen and think about what what that
tells you. Yeah.
And I I think, I think you made a a really, a really salient
point about it's all out of our influence.
It's completely out of our influence, which is, which is
why it's, which is why. Like part of why, I guess Kat.
Kat wants to say hello. No worries.
Hey, Kat. Which is why it's part of why,
like, I feel so comfortable openly advocating for Bitcoin,
like on on Twitter to to people. Because it's like, so you're
not, you're not doing it like you are the founder and you're
shilling. It's like that's not what's
happening. Yeah, no.
And and by the way, like there's no.
There's no world in which I would like.
I can't. There's nothing I can do to, you
know, move the needle on the price, right?
Like, I can't like, like if somebody like, I talk to
somebody and I'm like, I genuinely like, for me
personally, I don't care whether you buy or sell.
Like it doesn't affect me at all.
You know, for you I would, I would recommend you get some
Bitcoin. I think so, because I can see
what's what's happening. I can see, I can see what's
happening to, you know, I I can see what's happening to these
Fiat currencies and I can see what's happening to Bitcoin.
And it's it's it's it's all it's very obvious to me but you know
it it there's nothing, there's nothing that there's nothing
that I can do to influence that. Right.
So. This is this is a phenomenon
that's that's happening regardless.
Now I I do think that there are there there may be small cases
around the edge where I can't affect Bitcoin, but I can
definitely affect the people around me.
I can. I can definitely help more
people you know get onto get onto the lifeboat of Bitcoin and
I I that that I want to, but. Ultimately these are forces far
greater than any any individual, right.
This is like a Bitcoin is, you know, honestly it's 10,000 years
in the making if you look at monetary history, right.
So it this is just the natural evolution of.
It's a natural evolution of money.
It's like it's like we're on that.
We just happen to be on the tip of the spear of it, because
it's, you know, 2023 and we happen to be alive in this
moment, but like. Yes, it's it's it's just like
an, you know, incredible situation to be a part of.
Really. Yeah.
Yeah, well and not during the seashell or the glass beads era,
right. So we are just right.
We're just lucky. I I agree.
Well, but you are doing something you are actually
actually with your brother, you are building a company called
Apollo. Can you share a bit about that,
like why? How did you get started building
that and like what do you do and how do you see its future?
Yeah, sure. So look, it's it's three of us,
it's myself, it's it's my brother Julian who's the CEO and
our other Co founders at Hill. And what what we're building is
essentially it's it's a place, it's a platform to discover and
compare Bitcoin products and services.
But what we're trying to do is. Really kind of bridge the trust
gap that people have, you know, not just like with Bitcoin, but
also with the kind of services that come along with it and try
and bring sort of I guess, I guess sort of decentralized that
in some sense by using user reviews to actually.
Sort of separate the signal from the noise with regards to these
you know different products in the industry.
We had you know what happened last, what happened last couple
of years with FTX was a disaster, right.
And we don't. We just, we don't, we never want
to have that happen again And it and if we had you know a
platform where you could actually find out what's
valuable and what's not, it would just be.
So useful. And so that's what we're
building. And the way we do that is we're
trying to source source reviews to products.
And then the cool thing about it with, you know, you sort of
being able to use Bitcoin as a as a payment network by the
Lightning Network is that it means you can make instant
global payments to people all over the world at 0 fees, which
is kind of it's kind of like magic actually.
You can make these micro payments to people, and so you
can incentivize people to come write a review and they can.
They're just more likely to, you know, they come to our, you
know, we get we get people from all over the world writing
reviews of these products and they do it because they get paid
in Bitcoin to write the reviews. So it kind of a creates a really
nice flywheel of value for value for everybody really.
You have the people that come in and they get paid, you know, for
their time to write a review and then it it creates all this
valuable content that then we can.
Aggregate and present and just find like a really great source
for other people to come in and be like, oh you know, I want to
discover and compare products and now I've got a better tool
to do so. So that's that's really our
focus. Yeah, very cool.
Yeah, I love that you're doing that with with your brother,
too. Must be a fun, fun endeavor.
And also I thought about this last week like the next 40 or 50
years we're going to be talking about Bitcoin, right?
Like that's also the timeline of your company like you are you
are building towards the future so.
It's really cool. Well, look that that's the thing
about it is, is that from a, from a self-interest point of
view, I want to we we want to attach ourselves to this wave
because we know, you know, it's like.
Every, every business has to be built on some sort of, you know,
secret or something that you know that other people don't.
And it's like we know, we know there's this absolute wave of
adoption coming for Bitcoin and so we can be there to help
facilitate that and you know provide value to people to that.
So it so it it just like we know this wave is coming where we
have no doubt about that. And so we just want to be able
to be there to provide value to people when they do come because
that's you know like that's the foundation of a good business.
So, yeah, look, I mean we're because the foundation is, you
know, so, so fundamentally excited and bullish about
Bitcoin adoption that it just makes so much sense to take that
kind of macro trend. And build a business on it.
And then it just so happens that you know through the Lighting
network we're able to use these like micro payments to do
something something cool that just like wasn't you know,
feasibly possible before but is now so very cool.
I I will. I will follow it with great
attention and excited to see where it goes.
To round up like I wanted to dive into some of your tweets.
You know how how you are memeing Bitcoin into existence.
But I'm going to share my screen here and see if that works.
Oh that works perfectly. That's great.
I love this. I love this one.
For the people who are not watching it's the text is if you
don't believe me or I or don't get it I will try to explain it
to you because this is very important and it's a picture
that shows the price of 1OZ one ounce.
I said Oz. Yeah.
One an ounce of gold. Yeah, yeah, an ounce of gold
coin. Yeah.
You explain. Well, look, it's an ounce of
gold coin in 1933 and it's like the, you know, the Fiat to to to
to pay for that and then all the Fiat to get that same amount of
gold in in 2020. And you've got this, you know,
huge bundle of cash. And the caption is obviously a
play on the the very famous Satoshi Nakamoto quote.
You know where he says actually the kind of the opposite?
He says. Look, if you don't, if you don't
get it, you don't believe. Believe me, I don't have time to
explain it to you. Sorry.
Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
I mean. Well, the well this ties back
into what we talked about, right, the the, the one ounce
gold coin is did not change one ounce of gold is 1 ounce of
gold, right, the number of currency units.
The dollar in this example that you needed in 1933 was 20.67.
But because of all the money printing, there are more
currency units but their value goes down, whereas the value of
the gold coins stayed the same, right?
So the the currency in this case is the denominator of that same
piece of gold. And now you need 17170 units of
the of the same thing, the same, the same dollars, right.
Look, and it it's, it's, it's funny because I, you know,
there's a lot of people in the replies to that tweet about, you
know, saying yeah, well This is why, This is why gold.
And it's like, it's like, look, gold was the strongest, hardest
money, you know, in the universe until Bitcoin came around.
Like like, yes, it is true. You know, if this was 50 years
ago, you know, if I don't, and if we were talking 50 years ago
and we were having this conversation, we'd probably be
saying like, get your butt, you know, gold, gold bars.
But something has been made better.
You know it's it's been digitally transformed into into
something that's that's harder, harder to make easier to
transfer. It's just better and it's it's
synthetically perfect is what it's synthetically perfect.
Money is what is what it is. And so it's like, you know
people people can interpret that as what what they're The gold
thing is interesting to me because what it does is it kind
of it's an intelligence test in a way.
It kind of exposes the the people that they they're kind of
gold bugs, but they don't know why they're gold bugs.
Like they they they gold bugs, but they gold bugs because it's
like, Oh yeah, because you know history.
It's like it's like, no, it's like you need to well, you can
think that way, but that's that's not very smart.
You should actually try and understand why Gold, why Gold
had these properties over this time.
And some people get that and some people don't.
But that's what this tweet is about.
Yeah, the next the next one says capitalized letters.
It says Bitcoin. And you you shared an image of a
text. Where where is that from?
Do you remember? Yeah, it's a it's a quote from
way dye. So like a hugely influential
cryptographer. Yeah, I mean look it, it speaks
for itself. But I think that this is like if
it's not obvious that this is happening, it it like
particularly over the last few years, then I don't know why.
Like I I don't know how. I mean, maybe like I had.
Look, and the quote is happening.
You mean the reducing the freedom of the citizens?
Yeah, I mean, look, the quote says there's never been a
government that didn't sooner or later try to reduce the freedom,
you know, of its, of its subjects and gain more control
over them. And you know it goes on to talk
about how we, we have to make it.
We we have to use the technology to make that impossible for the
government because it's an inevitability of the government.
I mean this is a comment on, it's not a comment about any
particular government, it's actually just a comment about
human, human nature. And you know, like I think it's
but very obviously the we we this would be harder to pitch to
somebody 10 years ago. But we, you know, if you lived
through the COVID experience, which we all did, then it
shouldn't be all that controversial an idea, right?
It should. It should be pretty stark and
obvious to people, but I think, I think.
Oh, this is for people in Western countries, I'd say,
right? I mean, there's a lot of
countries, babe, that 20 years ago also experienced this,
right? So I think this is especially
confrontational for for people in Western countries and I
think. I I I usually think that like we
grew up in such a great time and everything went well and there
was always money and water and food and whatever.
Like we didn't. People didn't think about the
government or the incentives that are there or not, right?
Or like the type of 0 sum game that they are part of or the
people in it are part of. Right.
And so that's also why sooner or later something like this will
happen, right? It's not.
So again, like I think that this is something that is not really
an opinion. Like if you look at history, it
has happened over and over and these were not different,
differently wired people than what we are now, right.
So it's again, I think something that when you share it, a lot of
people think like, oh, that might be your opinion, but it's
actually just a reflection on. It's happened.
It's a lesson of history, yeah. Exactly.
This picture is from Breaking Bad, I think.
Yeah, it is. Where Jesse hugs.
What's his name? Walter.
Walt. Yeah, you say.
It's a lot to swallow at first in the picture, Walter says Me
and the friends who finally researched how field money works
is crying, etcetera. Why did you do it?
This, yeah, I mean, look, I've well, I mean, I think it's
funny, but. But it's funny, but I mean.
It's like an unseen thing, right?
Like you cannot Unsee it once you see it or something.
Well, I mean it expresses, it expresses a couple of different
things. One is the I think I think all
the Bitcoin is sort of you you know all the Bitcoiners see that
and I I am that's that's you know I'm Walt in that that that
picture because you know you've been trying to convince you're
sort of like at at a certain point along the way it's almost
I don't know tiring or you you you you you see something and
and other people don't see it and you don't like why don't you
see it it's it can be maybe dispiriting or whatever but then
it's like it's like when they when they finally when they
finally. See.
Yeah, it's like it's a happy moment.
Yeah. Yeah, it's both a happy moment.
But you're also acknowledging, I mean like.
Yeah, it's a lot. It's hard.
It's it's hard because when you, when you finally understand
Bitcoin, you also kind of understand just how fucked up
the rest of the world is. And so it is like it is kind of
a it is a lot actually, yeah. Yeah, this one was great.
This one I also really liked. Oh I I zoomed in on my screen
with You mentioned crypto before right?
And that it also confuses people like the other crypto assets.
And this this you tweeted. Beware of crypto and you tweet a
quote. Apparently a Turkish proverb,
but it says the forest was shrinking but the trees kept
voting for the axe. For the axe was clever and
convinced that the trees convinced the trees that because
of his handle was made of wood, he was one of them.
Right. So I'm a cryptocurrency.
I'm. I'm one of the, yeah,
altruistic, good, good guy, good guys, yeah.
But whereas Bitcoin is. Decentralized protocol that just
runs and includes lots of different discoveries.
Everything after Bitcoin is kind of another version.
Well, yeah, how would you say that?
Like a flawed version of the same thing or an attempt at it,
right. I think as there was a report by
Fidelity that said that Bitcoin is akin to fire or the wheel.
There's no better fire. There's no better wheel.
Yeah, I think that's right. And the thing that people have
to understand is that it's because of its properties.
It's it's like it's not, it's it's because it's the only
decentralized currency that isn't controlled by anyone that
that makes it, that makes it what it what, what it is.
You know, it's not, it's not about, it's not about the the
fixed supply. It's about the credibility of
the fixed supply because, you know, like the US government
today or, you know, any government today can be like,
hey, look, we're not going to print anymore.
We're going to just say that and it's like, oh, OK then we've got
a fixed supply, right. Right.
I mean it's like, well, no, because it's not, it's not
credible and. Yeah.
You don't let yourself be enforced basically this this.
Yeah. And it's and it's not just the,
it's not just the the credit. It's not just a fixed supply.
It's actually the credibility of the permissionless aspect of
using the money. Because if you're, if I'm using,
you know, somebody else's, somebody else's coin and then
I'm the government, I can go to that person.
I can say, well, you better stop them using it, you know, or I'm
going to put you in jail. And then they're going to comply
with that, with, you know, they're going to, they're going
to comply with that. But the magic of Bitcoin is that
there's no, there's nobody to go after because nobody controls
it. So, you know, it's actually a
very interesting thought experiment.
Like there could be a world in which you could, as the way the
world played out, there was only one Bitcoin.
But there isn't like an interesting theoretical world
where at the exact same time that Satoshi Nakamoto created
Bitcoin, you also had, say, in China, the creation of another.
You'd like another sort of Bitcoin at the exact same time,
and they developed almost like an and maybe, you know, people
weren't talking with with each other or communicating with each
other, and maybe they ended up creating like parallel bitcoins.
It's like theoretically impossible that you could have
the exact same properties of Bitcoin in another network.
Like maybe if there are aliens, you know, in another Galaxy,
they've created their own. Kind of bit like it is.
Theoretically, that there's another Bitcoin in general, you
mean like the same type of discovery?
Exactly. But in our world, as it turned
out, you know, there is only one and there's and you can't and
like you can't redo it, so you can't have like another one now.
But so you know, yeah, be aware of it.
Because when people try and, you know, talk about their own,
their other crypto, it's just a distraction.
Right last 1A Nietzsche quote. I'm not upset that you lied to
me. I'm upset that from now on I
can't believe you. Well ties into the to the other
one with from Breaking Bad right?
Like once you see some things and you understand that, you now
understand it differently. Basically, there's a lots of
other things that you start questioning.
Yeah, I mean, I look, I'm a I'm a huge fan of of nature and I
think, I think there's so much, you know, we can learn, we can
learn from him about the way the world works and the way, you
know how to live a good life. And I learned, you know, I
learned a lot from from Bitcoin as well.
And so like I would, I would love to see, you know, more of
the Nietzscheans in in Bitcoin. I think it's a perfect fit.
I mean, Bitcoin is ultimately for everybody I guess, but I
think it makes perfect sense for people that you know are
attracted to the ideologies of both have have a lot of
similarities I would say. Yeah, oh, I had another one.
Oh, this was the Roman Empire one.
It's a it's a picture of a of a Roman soldier or leader.
And he says watching the Roman Empire collapse again, but with
Wi-Fi and memes, it's actually happening, right?
It's just, well, we saw the TikTok trends.
Why? Like, what's your fault behind
this one? Yeah, I mean, look, I think it
speaks for itself, but it it it's, it's it's pretty funny and
I think, I think. Actually, I'd say right.
It's it's almost absurd actually but like it really is quite
quite silly really when you think about it.
But we because you sort of wonder we will never know.
Well, it's not, it's not really clear whether like what did they
you know when that was happening back then, did they, did they
know about the collapse or I mean they they obviously knew
when it was collapsing like or battle the inflation.
For real. For real, Yeah.
Well, they, they, they, they you know, but.
Yeah, it's what I think here is like everything you read about
something in the past feels also very distant, like that happened
to other people that were different than me, you know,
it's just very far away and that once you realize that, you could
be in the same situation, right? Yeah.
Then it's actually wild to think that you are aware of that that
you are in the situation as where you say the the people in
that time probably most of them weren't aware that they were in
the that situation. Yeah.
And and I do think that it's not like a perfect parallel by any
stretch because we we we are just like everything happens so
much faster now because of the technology.
So we like where whereas it took 500 years for the Roman Empire
collapse we we might see a sort of collapse and revolution and
and ascent very quickly. You know it it it it it like
it's it's all I'm I'm still you know in some ways in some ways
you know I'm pessimistic when I when I realize when I think
about the way the world is. But I also am you know
fundamentally optimistic about about where is like I think that
you know like I want to be alive in 50 years time because I think
that the world is going to be awesome.
I do believe that even though like yeah we're we're witnessing
some sort of collapse today and I also believe that to be true
but it's just we're in a very strange time in the with our
like technology adoption and. Well human evolution image.
Yeah in essence right. Like every every people every
human is always at the tip of the spear of humanity right.
You know every person that's ever lived it's been true for
them. But yeah, the difference is, is
that is that we, you know, like the technology that we have is,
is could potentially like it it it's nonlinear, basically it's
nonlinear. So that's why that's why there's
the potential for our living standards to like dramatically
improve really quickly in a way that like wasn't really possible
in the past. If as long as we don't like, you
know, screw it up, which is also possible, yeah, it's.
It's it's lots of turmoil but turmoil but I agree with you
like the the the futures should seem bright to you because we do
also have like lots of technological advances and it
should be it should become better.
Yeah I I love these memes I'm definitely will link to all your
Twitter people can follow you for more.
I want to ask you last the last question that I.
I ask everyone the same thing. What's that?
What's a core belief that that you will never let go.
Well look I I I think, I I think I have to I'd have to say you
know 21 million Bitcoin really because that's like that's
that's that's the heart of it, right?
That's there are some things we can we can talk about with
Bitcoin, but that will never change.
Awesome. Thanks for sharing.
Thanks for this conversation. Where can people follow you
online and where can they find your company?
Yeah sure. So X account is is Thomas, under
score Farah, so Thomas. And then it's under score
FAHRER. And then you know, you can, you
can find, you know Apollo where heyapollo.com.
Yeah, Google Apollo or heyapollo.com and you'll find
you'll find that, yeah, you know, cool, write some reviews.
Be cool to see. Get some Bitcoin.
Yeah, I'll, I'll, I'll link to, I'll link to this in the in the
show notes so people can find you easily.
Thanks again for this conversation and let's stay in
touch. It's been a pleasure.
Yeah, looking forward to. It I hope you enjoyed this
episode. If you did, it would be amazing
if you could rate, review and subscribe on the podcast
platform of your choice. It will help us educate more
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You can follow and connect with me on Twitter.
I'm Bronke. That's at Bramk.
And if you are or know someone who has an interesting
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I appreciate your support and hope you'll be here for the next
episode. Thanks for listening.
Bye.