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Hey there, this is Palm Constant
and you're listening to Bitcoin 

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for Millennials. 
Together with my guests on this 

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podcast, I go on a journey to 
discover how our current 

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financial system works, why it's
flawed, and why Bitcoin is the 

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most relevant technology that 
you should understand and adopt.

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Today I'm joined by Thomas 
Ferrer. 

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He's the Co founder of Apollo 
Platform on the Lightning 

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Network that allows bitcoiners 
to review products they love, 

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find those they can trust, and 
earn Bitcoin in the process. 

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I really love Thomas's tweets 
and the memes that he posts 

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about Bitcoin, which are great 
way to communicate the core 

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message of why we actually 
Bitcoin. 

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The money we use is broken. 
Welcome Thomas. 

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This is actually round two, man.
Yeah, we talked before. 

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Great to chat with you again. 
Yeah, yeah. 

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We talked before for like an 
hour and then realized that's 

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all the uploading and all the 
syncing didn't go very well. 

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So we're trying. 
We're trying again. 

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So thanks. 
Thanks for coming on again. 

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I first want to do like a quick 
check like which generation do 

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you belong to? 
Are you a millennial or? 

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Yeah. 
I'm a millennial. 

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Yeah. 
So how how do you find your your

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your efforts on on educating 
millennials like how how's that 

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going for you? 
Well, look, I mean, I think that

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millennials are by far the most 
receptive generation. 

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To Bitcoin or maybe Gen. 
Z. 

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But you know, the younger, the 
younger you get, the more 

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receptive you are to Bitcoin and
the less money you have to 

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invest in it. 
But yeah, I mean look, you know 

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one of the things that sort of 
interesting is that millennials 

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are really the first, the first 
generation to. 

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Predominantly take up Bitcoin. 
It's still not massive amongst 

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our generation but when when you
go to like Bitcoin meetups and 

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this sort of thing it's people 
our age predominantly and that's

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it's actually not like that 
surprising because technology 

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always seems to go this way. 
I was, I was just like curious 

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about this kind of digging into 
it is it's. 

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It's fascinating actually how if
you look at Internet adoption, 

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it was exactly the same. 
If you if you look at if you 

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looked at if you looked at 
Internet adoption in say 

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19981999, the number of people 
over 50 that had ever used the 

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Internet, it was like it was 
like one in 10 people they they 

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they did surveys on this stuff. 
So to so there's like a pretty 

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good record of this, but at the 
same time when it's like, you 

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know, it's minuscule, it's 10% 
of people, 50 plus. 

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But then you know in 1998 it was
like 45% for people in the 25 to

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40 range. 
So it had, it was already there 

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and it was being adopted, but 
you know, not not by older 

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people and it's it's a pretty 
normal arc for technology. 

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So I don't think you know well 
Bitcoin's proving to be very 

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similar. 
Yeah, I personally find it's 

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very inspiring when I see like 
older, older people who are 

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already like into into Bitcoin, 
who had like a career in the 

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traditional finance world, 
right. 

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And eventually kind of like saw 
saw Bitcoin. 

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Like, I know, I don't know 
because I didn't experience it. 

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But I I can understand, like, 
why it's very hard. 

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You know, Like, I think even for
us it's been hard. 

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And personally, I think 
sometimes it's still hard. 

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You know, like you, you grew up 
in a certain system that you 

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never really doubted, doubted, 
right. 

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And now when you adopt something
different, you still run into 

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that old, like, those old 
learnings, right? 

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So yeah, it's interesting to see
these different generations. 

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Yeah, I mean, look, it's it's 
always so impressive when you do

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me the. 
Relatively rare, but you know 

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the like the boomers that have 
have picked up Bitcoin and it 

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what I see in sort of that 
generation is that they're very 

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receptive to the problem that 
they just haven't necessarily 

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got or figured out that Bitcoin 
is the solution. 

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But they're very receptive, you 
know, they understand like. 

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Way more people. 
There are way more people that 

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understand the problem that 
Bitcoin solves than there are 

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bitcoins out there. 
But you know the the the rare 

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ones that can put both both 
together, well, you know, it's 

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it's very fortunate for them and
and for their their kids as well

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I guess but. 
But I would agree, yeah, I think

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more people at least feel there 
is a problem, right? 

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They they are. 
Well, hopefully people get 

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triggered and they start like 
researching the problem. 

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We'll have some tweets from you 
later on where there's like some

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nice illustrations of the 
problem. 

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But yeah, I agree. 
And I think also, you know, I 

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really want to talk to you also 
about like how you, you know, 

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try to educate people and mean 
Bitcoin into existence, 

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basically. 
And I think it's really nice how

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you focus on talking, I think 
more about the problem than than

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about Bitcoin. 
That's actually the solution, 

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right? 
I think that's really good 

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because if people don't 
understand the problem, then 

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they will never find that 
threads that that could, you 

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know, lead them to what we think
is the solution, right? 

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For sure. 
I mean, the problem is top of 

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the funnel because nobody, 
nobody cares about. 

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Like it's Bitcoin is interesting
in intricacies of how it works. 

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It's very interesting for, you 
know, somebody that's already a 

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Bitcoin, or it's endlessly 
fascinating, but you can't talk 

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to somebody about the details 
of. 

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The way the way the network 
operates they don't want to like

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you can't go to somebody that 
you just can't you just can't 

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open with the difficulty 
adjustment. 

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It just doesn't do anything for 
a regular, a regular person and 

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and it's perfectly 
understandable it really, it 

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really shouldn't. 
It's far too abstract a concept.

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So it's it's I mean it's always 
like this is it's not even a 

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Bitcoin issue. 
It's actually just a 

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communication issue. 
You should just always start 

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with. 
Why? 

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Like why should I care about 
what you have to say And then 

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when you know, dig into it, you 
can explain. 

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You can explain how Bitcoin is a
solution but if you don't start 

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with why, nobody will, nobody 
will be interested. 

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So, and it's also, you know, the
way the way like social media 

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works is that. 
You you do need to have that 

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kind of ability to connect with 
a lot of different people to 

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kind of be attracted to your 
idea in order for it to spread. 

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So it it it doesn't necessarily,
it's not a great meet like 

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Twitter is not really the place 
to go on a deep dive into the 

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the intricacies of the network 
because it's never going to have

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that kind of. 
Viral potential that the problem

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will because that's just 
immediately understandable for 

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for a much greater group of 
people. 

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So what? 
What made you first become 

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interested in investing finance?
And like, what led you to to 

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Bitcoin? 
Yeah, well, look, I mean, I I 

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was someone like like a lot of 
people, it just took a lot of a 

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lot of touch points. 
You know, I first I first came 

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across. 
Bitcoin, when I was studying it,

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I studied. 
Actually I did, I did like my 

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thesis on Bitcoin at university 
and I I was just interested in 

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it from it because at the time 
it was like the most volatile 

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asset the world had basically 
ever seen, you know? 

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And since then, there's been 
like a lot of cryptocurrencies 

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that you know. 
Come up but at the at the time 

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it was it was interesting even 
just just for the the volatility

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of it and I I just I just found 
the the the statistics about 

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that very interesting so I 
started I started looking at 

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that and then I what did you 
study well. 

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I did. 
I did finance and economics, but

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like sort of like looking at it 
from like a numerical techniques

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or statistical point of view. 
But so I moved, you know after 

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university, I moved into sort of
the traditional finance space 

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and that's when I actually 
really started to properly 

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understand what problem become 
solving. 

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Because when I first looked at 
it, I just thought it was kind 

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of interesting thing, but I 
didn't really. 

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I thought it was fascinating, 
but I didn't really understand 

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the why we really even needed 
it. 

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I it was more it was like, OK, 
it's this alternative payment 

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network, but. 
We've already got a payment 

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network like you know and IT and
it and what we have you know 

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feels like it works pretty well.
But then when I got into 

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investments and the world 
started to essentially you know 

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particularly we we're at this 
point in time where interest 

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rates are zero and you have this
massive appreciation of assets 

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across actually everything it 
was like. 

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It was called, it was in every 
kind of institutional conference

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You went to whatever it was 
called, the everything bubble. 

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Everybody could see it. 
Bonds, bonds that had this 40 

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year bull market, equities were 
just constantly running up to 

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sort of really high level, you 
know high PES and all that 

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stuff. 
And it was like, hey, there's a 

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basically a bubble in 
everything. 

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You know, you've got Ray Dalio 
out there going cash is trash. 

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And that's the kind of stuff 
that I guess started to make my 

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make me interested in what's 
what's happening here. 

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And then, you know, I was 
talking to an asset manager 

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who's who's like he was kind of 
talking his book about it, about

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his stocks. 
But what he was saying was. 

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Basically, the market's going to
pump. 

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The market's going to pump and 
he's talking about equities. 

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But he was, he was banging the 
table in a room, I'm talking to 

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him and he was banging the table
And he's like, I'm like why? 

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And he's like well we're about 
to start start QE two and he's 

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like pointing to these charts of
QE one and he's and he's you 

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know showing me basically when 
they do QE the stock, the stock 

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market, stock market pumps and 
QE is the quantitative easing, 

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right. 
It's the the printing of money. 

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It's money printing, but it they
the problem is is that but they 

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call it differently. 
Right. 

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They call, you know, 
essentially. 

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Yeah, what what they do is they 
they give it these fancy names 

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so that it's not immediately 
obvious to the public about what

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they're doing. 
You know, it's we're we're doing

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some monetary engineering. 
It's based on our zero interest 

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rate policy. 
We're going to do some 

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quantitative easing. 
Like what? 

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What? 
Oh, you're printing money. 

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OK, but that wasn't. 
But once that that, that started

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to come clear, it's like, OK, 
the central banks are printing 

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money. 
It's causing an asset bubble and

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everything. 
And then, you know, 2017 came 

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around and it was just this big 
wake up. 

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I feel like 2017 was the real 
coming out party for Bitcoin in 

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a way to. 
Tell the world that Bitcoin was 

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was this serious thing to to 
take notice of you know all like

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all you know all the people that
believed in it well before 17 

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you know all power all power to 
them But you you really had to 

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deeply understand the problems 
of of Fiat money that I, I that 

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wasn't like. 
It wasn't necessarily obvious to

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me at that point in time, but it
started to become really obvious

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around that point in time. 
And you know, I just had to, I 

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had to evaluate at in 17. 
And you know, thereon after I 

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started to evaluate, I had to 
revisit some of my earlier 

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assumptions about Bitcoin. 
And Bitcoin has this sort of 

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funny property to it. 
Where? 

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It's kind of an ego test because
everybody, everybody that like 

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actually it's it's it's one of 
the sort of interesting unique 

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properties of it that literally 
everybody that buys Bitcoin 

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could have bought Bitcoin much 
earlier at a much cheaper price.

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00:13:47,400 --> 00:13:50,040
Like there's no that's that's it
doesn't matter what price you 

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bought at. 
You could have got a lot more 

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Bitcoin at a much cheaper price,
but. 

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You decided not to if you 
understood it earlier. 

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00:13:58,320 --> 00:14:01,040
Yeah, if you understood it 
earlier, but it's, you know, 

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every person, there's basically 
nobody that first comes in touch

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with Bitcoin and then goes, 
yeah, yeah, I'm going to like 

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that's not really a thing. 
That's not really a thing. 

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You you you have to have 
multiple touch points and it it 

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creates, it is. 
It is essentially an ego thing 

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where you have to go. 
Well I just missed it before, 

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but was I wrong? 
And you have to be like, you 

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know, intellectually honest and 
sort of, you know, have a, you 

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00:14:31,720 --> 00:14:33,880
know, a small enough ego 
humility. 

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Yeah, the humility, Exactly. 
You have to have some humility 

227
00:14:36,800 --> 00:14:40,360
to be able to say, yeah, I mean,
I screwed up before, actually, I

228
00:14:40,360 --> 00:14:43,160
was wrong. 
Like I wish there wasn't, but I 

229
00:14:43,160 --> 00:14:44,400
was. 
I was wrong in the past. 

230
00:14:44,800 --> 00:14:49,680
And so you have to, you have to 
be able to learn from that and 

231
00:14:49,680 --> 00:14:53,160
that. 
You know, not everybody can 

232
00:14:53,160 --> 00:14:55,520
handle that, right? 
That creates a certain kind of 

233
00:14:56,920 --> 00:15:01,640
derangement syndrome for like a 
few, like a, like a, you know, a

234
00:15:01,640 --> 00:15:03,040
small percentage of the 
population. 

235
00:15:03,040 --> 00:15:08,760
So that's why you still have 
certain people, you know, like 

236
00:15:09,960 --> 00:15:12,880
Peter Schiff would be sort of a 
walking billboard of this, which

237
00:15:12,880 --> 00:15:17,240
is like a gold bug, yeah. 
Not just a gold bug, but you 

238
00:15:17,240 --> 00:15:20,400
just he's in like. 
I just think that he's gonna 

239
00:15:20,440 --> 00:15:24,880
he's the type that like because 
he he could have and he should 

240
00:15:24,880 --> 00:15:29,440
have potentially gotten so much 
earlier it won't matter. 

241
00:15:29,440 --> 00:15:33,440
Like, he'll be the one of the 
last people to ever buy Bitcoin 

242
00:15:33,440 --> 00:15:37,600
because it's just too it's too 
emotionally painful to accept 

243
00:15:37,600 --> 00:15:42,160
the mistakes you made in the 
past and. 

244
00:15:42,600 --> 00:15:46,520
It really is the kind of what it
does is it creates cognitive 

245
00:15:46,520 --> 00:15:52,320
dissonance in people. 
I was talking to a gold bug, 

246
00:15:52,320 --> 00:15:58,000
actually, and he was saying, you
know, I was talking about how 

247
00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:01,680
really you have to essentially 
your unit of account should be 

248
00:16:01,680 --> 00:16:04,840
Bitcoin, right? 
That's the opportunity cost of 

249
00:16:05,520 --> 00:16:10,760
all your investments. 
And his response was well. 

250
00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:14,680
You know if if Bitcoin, Bitcoin 
is if, if. 

251
00:16:14,680 --> 00:16:17,560
If that's the case, then look at
look at my, my home. 

252
00:16:17,560 --> 00:16:23,360
It's gone from from you know, 
20,020 thousand Bitcoin to 10 

253
00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:25,480
Bitcoin in the last decade. 
Yeah. 

254
00:16:25,640 --> 00:16:30,760
And and you know when I, when I 
listen and it's like, yeah, you 

255
00:16:30,760 --> 00:16:33,400
want to and it's like, yeah. 
And you want to hold a deflation

256
00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:35,240
like you want to hold Bitcoin 
because of that. 

257
00:16:35,240 --> 00:16:39,920
Like it's like, yes. 
But his his logic is like, well 

258
00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:43,920
then I'm down, yeah. 
You know, it's like, clearly 

259
00:16:43,920 --> 00:16:47,600
it's like, well, it's a broken, 
like it's a like, no, clearly, 

260
00:16:47,600 --> 00:16:50,200
it's just a bad network. 
Like, it's like the Bitcoin must

261
00:16:50,200 --> 00:16:52,840
be broken if that's the case. 
Like, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's. 

262
00:16:52,840 --> 00:16:55,200
Just a it's just a cognitive 
dissonance is what it is. 

263
00:16:57,400 --> 00:17:02,760
So you know, in some ways the 
people that there, there will be

264
00:17:02,760 --> 00:17:06,240
a whole class of people, 
probably the boomers actually 

265
00:17:06,960 --> 00:17:09,720
who never. 
Or even really significantly 

266
00:17:09,720 --> 00:17:11,319
thought about investing in 
bitcoins. 

267
00:17:11,319 --> 00:17:14,319
They're not going to have that 
baggage of, you know, 

268
00:17:14,760 --> 00:17:19,000
particularly when it just 
becomes available via say the 

269
00:17:19,000 --> 00:17:21,319
ETFs, right. 
There's going to be a whole 

270
00:17:21,319 --> 00:17:27,160
bunch of people that they 
weren't going to buy it, you 

271
00:17:27,160 --> 00:17:29,600
know, the way the way you and I 
bought it and they weren't. 

272
00:17:29,680 --> 00:17:35,040
They don't want to self custody 
their Bitcoin because they're 

273
00:17:35,040 --> 00:17:37,680
just scared of technology. 
And they're they're scared 

274
00:17:37,680 --> 00:17:38,920
they're going to lose it 
themselves. 

275
00:17:38,920 --> 00:17:41,600
So they they never seriously 
thought about it before. 

276
00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:44,760
So they're not going to have 
that kind of baggage that has 

277
00:17:44,760 --> 00:17:47,040
been holding them back in the 
past and now it's just going to 

278
00:17:47,040 --> 00:17:51,200
be when that when it does happen
and it's like oh, I can just buy

279
00:17:51,200 --> 00:17:55,960
it with my trade account the 
same way I buy it I buy stocks. 

280
00:17:55,960 --> 00:17:59,240
It's going to they don't have to
like understand, understand 

281
00:17:59,640 --> 00:18:01,920
right. 
They they they will stay like 

282
00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:06,480
few layers separated probably. 
Yeah. 

283
00:18:08,480 --> 00:18:12,520
And that and it's and that's 
that's that's true for people, 

284
00:18:12,520 --> 00:18:16,920
but it's also very importantly 
true for institutions because 

285
00:18:18,280 --> 00:18:22,640
you know there are just, there's
a whole class of investors that 

286
00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:26,720
have the majority of the capital
that you know, there's no 

287
00:18:26,720 --> 00:18:32,520
realistic way for them to invest
in Bitcoin in a sort of. 

288
00:18:34,200 --> 00:18:41,840
Self self custodial manner 
because it's like you you go to 

289
00:18:41,840 --> 00:18:45,160
these you know 12 boomers 
sitting on a board of a pension 

290
00:18:45,160 --> 00:18:48,720
fund and it's like Oh yeah, 
we're we're going to set up a 

291
00:18:48,720 --> 00:18:50,880
multi sig for you and it's like 
what? 

292
00:18:50,880 --> 00:18:53,760
Like no, I don't want to do 
that. 

293
00:18:53,760 --> 00:18:56,200
I don't want to be responsible 
for it and it's just they're 

294
00:18:56,280 --> 00:18:57,600
not, they're not used to that, 
so. 

295
00:19:01,080 --> 00:19:02,400
They don't. 
They're not going to have any 

296
00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:06,200
kind of emotional baggage with 
Bitcoin's past because they 

297
00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:09,360
never could have invested in it.
But once they start, you know 

298
00:19:09,400 --> 00:19:09,920
what? 
What? 

299
00:19:09,920 --> 00:19:11,400
What? 
What's happening? 

300
00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:14,920
Is this easier and easier 
investment vehicles. 

301
00:19:16,280 --> 00:19:18,400
And when they have the 
opportunity to invest in it, 

302
00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:22,080
it's just going to be like it's 
just going to be. 

303
00:19:22,080 --> 00:19:23,680
Is it solving the problem for 
me? 

304
00:19:23,760 --> 00:19:26,760
Oh, well, yeah. 
And that's and that's a question

305
00:19:26,760 --> 00:19:29,680
they have to face. 
But they will. 

306
00:19:29,680 --> 00:19:34,240
They will probably only look at 
like the kegger or the ROI they 

307
00:19:34,240 --> 00:19:36,440
missed. 
And then they will be like, OK, 

308
00:19:36,440 --> 00:19:39,240
I need to have this thing. 
Yeah, I really like what you say

309
00:19:39,240 --> 00:19:44,600
about let's let's mention the 
lots with the people that I 

310
00:19:44,600 --> 00:19:46,560
talked to, like these multiple 
touch points, right. 

311
00:19:46,560 --> 00:19:52,200
Like you wrote your thesis about
Bitcoin and only a few years 

312
00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:54,080
later you really got into it, 
right? 

313
00:19:54,080 --> 00:19:57,520
Like that says a lot. 
Like you already spent multiple 

314
00:19:57,520 --> 00:20:02,280
hours researching this, right? 
And you still didn't get it. 

315
00:20:02,280 --> 00:20:06,920
And that's why I I think this is
an important message because 

316
00:20:06,920 --> 00:20:10,440
like once you get it and you 
look back, you know, then you 

317
00:20:10,440 --> 00:20:11,960
can say things like you just 
said. 

318
00:20:11,960 --> 00:20:14,320
Like it's about humility. 
It's an ego thing. 

319
00:20:14,320 --> 00:20:17,480
It is hard to understand and I 
think for people who listen to 

320
00:20:17,480 --> 00:20:24,240
us and other bitcoiners who you 
know just see Bitcoin as well, I

321
00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:26,840
I kind of say like it's it's 
it's. 

322
00:20:27,160 --> 00:20:29,320
Almost. 
It's engineered ultimate truth, 

323
00:20:29,400 --> 00:20:31,600
right? 
It's just a thing, you know, and

324
00:20:31,600 --> 00:20:34,400
it sounds so ridiculous and I 
didn't think I would ever say 

325
00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:40,400
this like four years ago, right.
But but you know, here, here I 

326
00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:43,440
am and I think that looking 
back, of course it's easier. 

327
00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:46,400
And that's also I think a 
challenge for us when we talk 

328
00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:48,960
about this or like our own 
journey that we do give like 

329
00:20:48,960 --> 00:20:55,040
context so that it's not looking
down on people that don't get it

330
00:20:55,040 --> 00:20:56,600
right because we also didn't get
it. 

331
00:20:56,680 --> 00:21:00,160
You spent probably 100 plus 
hours on your thesis and you 

332
00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:05,400
still didn't get it right. 
So that's totally OK. 

333
00:21:05,400 --> 00:21:11,320
I mean it took me, I would say 
more than seven years or 

334
00:21:11,320 --> 00:21:14,560
something to really, really get 
it and I'm still learning 

335
00:21:14,560 --> 00:21:17,200
everyday, right. 
So I think that's a very 

336
00:21:17,200 --> 00:21:20,200
important message that it's not,
it's not, it's not coming from a

337
00:21:20,200 --> 00:21:24,160
place of like superiority or 
something. 

338
00:21:24,160 --> 00:21:25,680
Like I understand it and you 
don't know. 

339
00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:28,480
It's just really hard. 
And I think that in general the 

340
00:21:28,480 --> 00:21:31,880
message about, you know, helping
people to to start studying 

341
00:21:31,880 --> 00:21:34,800
Bitcoin is honestly, I think 
very altruistic. 

342
00:21:34,800 --> 00:21:38,280
Like please do it, you know, 
please dive in more because it 

343
00:21:38,280 --> 00:21:43,400
is just really hard. 
But once you start to understand

344
00:21:43,400 --> 00:21:48,760
it and also start to not Unsee 
it anymore, right, then I think 

345
00:21:48,760 --> 00:21:51,480
that will accelerate, right? 
Like, I think you only need like

346
00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:54,760
one or two things where you're 
like, wow, really, does it work?

347
00:21:54,760 --> 00:21:57,720
Like, does it work like that? 
You know, whether it's about the

348
00:21:57,720 --> 00:22:02,600
old system of or or or Bitcoin. 
And then you will accelerate in 

349
00:22:02,760 --> 00:22:06,680
in all your effort of studying, 
I think. 

350
00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:08,760
Because then you really want to 
know more, right? 

351
00:22:08,760 --> 00:22:13,880
There's this like place in 
between where I think you know 

352
00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:15,640
people will will all dive in 
further. 

353
00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:17,200
Like what? 
What was that for you? 

354
00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:20,600
Like what's what's like the 
biggest thing that you that you 

355
00:22:20,600 --> 00:22:25,200
cannot Unsee anymore, whether 
understanding Bitcoin or also 

356
00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:29,880
the stuff outside? 
Well, I mean there's a there's a

357
00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:33,560
lot. 
I think there's there's a lot of

358
00:22:33,560 --> 00:22:39,160
different layers to it. 
One is all the the the Fiat, the

359
00:22:39,160 --> 00:22:42,040
Fiat problems. 
I mean understanding like. 

360
00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:46,920
Fiat is actually going to 
Infinity. 

361
00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:54,840
And like not, not not in like 
500 years time, but like 

362
00:22:56,160 --> 00:23:01,760
actually, well, some people, you
know, we don't know for sure. 

363
00:23:01,760 --> 00:23:06,120
But it it might be this decade 
and it might not be this decade,

364
00:23:06,120 --> 00:23:09,560
it might be in the next, 
certainly going to be in our 

365
00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:11,000
lifetime. 
Yeah. 

366
00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:15,200
And when you say Infinity, you 
mean the amount of money. 

367
00:23:15,560 --> 00:23:17,680
Right. 
I mean it's and therefore also 

368
00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:20,600
the value. 
Down right. 

369
00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:27,360
I mean the value of course yes 
the the value declines as the as

370
00:23:27,360 --> 00:23:33,960
the supply increases but that 
that's only one angle to it 

371
00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:39,960
because what was probably maybe.
More important for me to 

372
00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:44,880
understand is what makes 
Bitcoin. 

373
00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:52,480
Why isn't like, the thing about 
the thing about the arc of 

374
00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:55,960
technology is that there's 
always like a new thing that 

375
00:23:55,960 --> 00:23:58,200
comes along that replaces the 
old thing. 

376
00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:03,800
You know, Facebook replacing 
Myspace and it's like, well, 

377
00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:06,080
it's like, OK, I get the idea 
about. 

378
00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:12,320
Cryptocurrency, say, but isn't 
Bitcoin just like a version one 

379
00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:15,800
that's going to be replaced by 
the next thing? 

380
00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:19,680
Because I think that there's a 
lot of people that get get stuck

381
00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:24,800
on that sort of point and that 
that was that was probably one 

382
00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:30,840
of the issues for me where it 
was, you know, understanding. 

383
00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:34,400
At that point in time 
particularly, I didn't 

384
00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:40,760
necessarily have a good enough 
understanding of open source 

385
00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:44,360
software, I guess as a whole. 
And understand, you know, this 

386
00:24:44,360 --> 00:24:52,160
idea that we will like Bitcoin 
is as good as we can possibly 

387
00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:57,480
make it today and in the future 
if there are new technologies 

388
00:24:57,480 --> 00:25:01,560
that come along to like, if 
there's a way to make. 

389
00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:07,080
Better money in the future, 
which which there might be in 

390
00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:11,320
some way, in the sense of 
something we cannot imagine 

391
00:25:11,320 --> 00:25:16,520
about the way the way the 
networks operate a way to make 

392
00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:20,040
way to make it better. 
What? 

393
00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:24,920
What it takes, What I now 
understand, which I didn't back 

394
00:25:24,920 --> 00:25:30,040
then, is that yes, that's what 
that will be immediately grafted

395
00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:33,800
onto Bitcoin like. 
Whatever whatever new kind of 

396
00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:37,640
technological discoveries we can
make along the way that's just 

397
00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:39,560
going to make Bitcoin stronger 
and better. 

398
00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:46,400
So it it it it's like how you 
know the the the right analogy 

399
00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:48,480
is going Bitcoin is like the 
Internet. 

400
00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:51,360
Everything just makes the 
Internet bigger and stronger and

401
00:25:51,360 --> 00:25:53,760
better. 
We're not we're not going to 

402
00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:59,480
build a second second Internet 
and it's and it's just finding 

403
00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:03,720
that right understanding about. 
That versus, oh, we're going to 

404
00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:05,800
find something better and it's 
going to replace Bitcoin. 

405
00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:07,880
It's like, no, nothing's going 
to replace Bitcoin. 

406
00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:16,240
But when you know, humans do 
have a way of discovering new 

407
00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:19,400
technologies that that can make 
things more efficient and make 

408
00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:21,920
things better. 
And when that happens, Bitcoin 

409
00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:23,360
is going to take all those 
superpowers. 

410
00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:29,280
So that was something that was 
because then then that's when 

411
00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:37,240
you realize. 
Like Bitcoin isn't isn't isn't 

412
00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:39,600
going to be replaced by a new 
technology. 

413
00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:42,800
It just makes Bitcoin stronger. 
So just Bitcoin just gets 

414
00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:51,080
stronger over time. 
And then look, it is nothing. 

415
00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:55,680
The whole process is a constant 
discovery. 

416
00:26:55,680 --> 00:27:00,360
There's no one point where your 
conviction is like. 

417
00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:04,560
You know, signed and done. 
It's just, it's just like oh, 

418
00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:09,240
but what if this and you have to
do a deep dive and try and get 

419
00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:14,400
get to the bottom of all these 
deep fundamental problems. 

420
00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:23,280
Which is why, like there are so 
many different types of queries 

421
00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:25,840
of lines of attack against 
Bitcoin that people have 

422
00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:29,360
addressed over the years and the
thing that is. 

423
00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:34,720
Sort of great for say, today is 
just that when you have, when 

424
00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:37,720
you have, when you can think up 
a potential problem with it, 

425
00:27:38,360 --> 00:27:40,760
well, there's somebody that also
that's already thought about 

426
00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:43,600
that problem 10 times over and 
it's been debunked. 

427
00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:52,200
But that wasn't so true. 
You know, like May it, it wasn't

428
00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:54,440
true even five years ago. 
I would say it's certainly not 

429
00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:58,720
ten years ago where you had such
a vast. 

430
00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:04,400
Deep amount of resources that 
you know like well, like now, 

431
00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:09,520
bit Bitcoin, podcasts and videos
and books are all abundant. 

432
00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:13,680
But that wasn't a thing that 
wasn't a thing 5-10 years ago, 

433
00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:18,320
right? 
No, you kind of had to figure it

434
00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:21,880
out yourself and that makes it a
lot, a lot harder. 

435
00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:27,200
But now, now it's just the the 
sea of information there it's 

436
00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:29,440
like. 
If you're willing to do it, if 

437
00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:31,200
you're willing to learn, it's 
all available. 

438
00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:36,200
It's all there for you. 
So that's what you know like and

439
00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:40,880
we're all, we're all so 
fortunate to be able to lean on 

440
00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:44,080
each other like that like that's
that's that's what makes it 

441
00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:50,800
interesting as well because it's
a mutual value exchange right. 

442
00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:55,560
Like it's not a 0 sum thing. 
Like I'm me making a podcast, 

443
00:28:55,560 --> 00:29:00,800
you building a Bitcoin company. 
Like we both try to add value 

444
00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:05,120
and we get value from it when 
you know, the network grows 

445
00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:08,440
bigger, we educate more people, 
more people use it, etcetera, 

446
00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:11,640
right. 
So it's not as in perhaps like a

447
00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:16,040
Fiat world where there's a lot 
of 0 some games actually, and 

448
00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:22,240
people use it using each other 
for single benefits, not mutual 

449
00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:25,200
benefits, right? 
Yeah, it's a social network. 

450
00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:30,080
It's a social network in in 
every sense of in every sense of

451
00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:34,920
the word. 
Not not just for, you know at 

452
00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:36,560
at. 
It's at it's core. 

453
00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:40,840
It's it's an idea that's that's 
shared by everybody. 

454
00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:44,880
That's why, that's why. 
Like, it's it's the people that 

455
00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:47,880
make that make Bitcoin. 
It's not the machines and well, 

456
00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:49,760
that's what that's something 
that people don't. 

457
00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:54,760
That's that's like that's one of
the issues that people don't 

458
00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:58,400
necessarily understand because 
they think let me just just 

459
00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:00,800
change the code because it's 
just, it's just lines of code 

460
00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:03,320
and code is easily manipulated 
and it's like yeah, you can 

461
00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:07,640
change the, you can change the 
code but you won't be able to 

462
00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:12,120
you know, you can. 
You know, I try to explain this 

463
00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:16,800
to people by it's like you can 
fork Christianity if you want. 

464
00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:20,520
Like, you can have your own, you
can have your own religion where

465
00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:24,000
you know, yeah, you can take out
three sins, right? 

466
00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:26,440
Or something, yeah. 
Yeah, exactly. 

467
00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:27,560
You can. 
Yeah, exactly. 

468
00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:30,760
You can create all kinds of 
funky, funky rules and for 

469
00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:34,080
Christianity. 
But the problem is, is that how 

470
00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:38,640
do you convince people? 
And it's very well. 

471
00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:41,240
If you think it's better, you 
should try it, right. 

472
00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:45,880
That's also the the, the 
comments that a lot of people 

473
00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:50,240
share when you know, you see 
these people from Greenpeace, 

474
00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:52,520
they talk about change the code 
of Bitcoin. 

475
00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:56,880
Bitcoin is destroying the world.
You know they're I personally 

476
00:30:56,880 --> 00:30:59,760
think it's very malicious like 
they're using studies that have 

477
00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:03,520
been debunked etcetera. 
But the entire point is, what is

478
00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:07,200
funny is they don't understand 
Bitcoin and they have this 

479
00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:10,880
opinion because what they can do
is they can just change the code

480
00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:13,400
themselves because it is open 
source. 

481
00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:19,040
They can copy Bitcoin, change 
what they think is bad and start

482
00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:22,360
Greenpeace, you know, Bitcoin, 
the Greenpeace version. 

483
00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:25,080
But they are actually not they. 
They are not right. 

484
00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:28,280
But that proves the point. 
Of it. 

485
00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:32,800
Well, it's it's funny on so many
levels because not only could 

486
00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:37,880
they do it, but if they actually
did any research, they would 

487
00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:40,120
find that, yeah. 
Like it has been done. 

488
00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:43,800
Like Bitcoin Proof of Proof of 
Stake exists. 

489
00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:46,800
You know Bitcoin Proof of Stake.
It doesn't. 

490
00:31:48,120 --> 00:31:50,680
There's no, there's no network 
adoption there. 

491
00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:54,200
Because as an idea it sucks and 
everybody knows that. 

492
00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:57,800
So you can't, you can, you can 
change the code to be Bitcoin 

493
00:31:57,800 --> 00:31:59,560
Proof of stake. 
I mean, people have already done

494
00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:04,960
that, but it it doesn't. 
Give you any value or create any

495
00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:08,880
value because, no, you can't 
convince everybody else to go 

496
00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:12,480
along with your story. 
Yeah. 

497
00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:16,000
And it's also back to that 
example of the Internet that you

498
00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:18,040
gave, right? 
Like in the beginning it was 

499
00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:21,480
obscure and, you know, like 
people didn't see the value, 

500
00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:23,680
etcetera. 
But the longer something exists 

501
00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:27,960
and the more the more people 
join that network, the more 

502
00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:33,880
beneficial and relevant it 
becomes for you to start 

503
00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:38,520
studying it, right. 
So, So you will in a way get 

504
00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:44,280
sucked into it if enough, quote 
UN quote, you know people around

505
00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:46,760
you. 
And that could also be true, you

506
00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:48,840
know, constant content that you 
consume, right. 

507
00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:54,680
Actually see it and start 
participating it and and seeing 

508
00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:58,480
the the benefit of it or the 
value that it gives them, right.

509
00:32:58,480 --> 00:33:01,800
So that's I think in general. 
So I don't know if that's the 

510
00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:04,120
theory behind like the 
technology S curve, right? 

511
00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:08,000
But there's always early 
adopters and people who build, 

512
00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:12,160
and then they show more people 
and then it just compounds over 

513
00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:16,560
time. 
Yeah, I mean, the longer, I mean

514
00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:19,160
1/3 of the world, that's crazy. 
It is. 

515
00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:22,320
Then this is born after Bitcoin.
Bitcoin, right. 

516
00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:26,920
Like, you know, it starts to. 
That's why. 

517
00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:28,360
That's why Gen. 
Z people. 

518
00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:33,880
Generally are going to be much 
more and and are much more 

519
00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:40,080
receptive to Bitcoin because it 
doesn't it doesn't seem foreign 

520
00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:41,800
to them. 
It's actually always been around

521
00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:45,840
and it and if you and if you 
don't have to unlearn a whole 

522
00:33:45,840 --> 00:33:50,080
bunch of ideas and select, oh 
OK, it's just another currency 

523
00:33:50,080 --> 00:33:53,320
like all the other currencies 
except that it's decentralized 

524
00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:58,360
and it's a fixed supply, and 
then you start. 

525
00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:03,200
Then then you can just start 
doing some basic maths on it and

526
00:34:03,240 --> 00:34:08,280
go oh OK, it's a big supply of 
21 million and the other one's 

527
00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:13,120
got Infinity attached to it. 
So where would I want to put my 

528
00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:21,159
money and it I think that yeah 
that definitely like that Lindy 

529
00:34:21,159 --> 00:34:23,920
effect. 
The longer the longer it goes, 

530
00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:26,360
the harder it is for anybody to 
really. 

531
00:34:28,239 --> 00:34:29,040
Question. 
And it's not. 

532
00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:32,000
That's not a Bitcoin thing. 
That's just true of of all 

533
00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:35,239
ideas, really. 
In general, Yeah, you just said 

534
00:34:35,239 --> 00:34:37,880
unlearn. 
What's like the main thing you 

535
00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:42,360
think people need to unlearn 
before they can understand 

536
00:34:42,360 --> 00:34:46,199
Bitcoin? 
Well, look, I mean, I think that

537
00:34:46,199 --> 00:34:48,760
there's a lot of people, 
particularly in the older 

538
00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:53,239
generations, that they're just 
like, well, it can't be money 

539
00:34:53,239 --> 00:34:57,240
unless it's like there's this 
idea that. 

540
00:34:57,560 --> 00:35:01,880
It's only the it's only possible
to have money if the government 

541
00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:05,560
deems it money. 
Like there's there's it's it's a

542
00:35:05,720 --> 00:35:07,800
it's a it's a wrong idea 
actually. 

543
00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:11,640
But yeah, it's it's it's we 
decide what the money is, right?

544
00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:15,920
Yeah, I mean it's well in 
prison. 

545
00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:18,560
The cigarettes are money. 
That's I like that example. 

546
00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:22,600
Because the the even though they
are in a centralized, controlled

547
00:35:22,640 --> 00:35:26,640
system, the prisoners still 
figure out how to exchange value

548
00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:29,120
with each other. 
You know, whatever that value, 

549
00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:32,000
whatever the value is that they 
exchanged. 

550
00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:35,400
They denominated in, well, 
cigarettes, for example. 

551
00:35:36,120 --> 00:35:40,240
I I think it's now that that's 
such an important idea and I I 

552
00:35:40,240 --> 00:35:45,560
think it's really interesting 
how a lot of younger generation 

553
00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:50,960
people get it because they 
played, you know, computer games

554
00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:54,680
and there's a lot of games out 
there that have their kind of. 

555
00:35:57,120 --> 00:36:00,480
Something like, you know when I 
was younger I played this game 

556
00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:05,760
Diablo two and in in this game 
in this world where you where 

557
00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:08,000
you know you build up your 
character and you have different

558
00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:12,240
items and all the there's an 
economy that that builds in the 

559
00:36:12,240 --> 00:36:15,480
network people. 
And what happens is that there's

560
00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:20,600
no top down centralized 
government controlling the the 

561
00:36:20,600 --> 00:36:23,520
world of Diablo Two. 
It's just it's an emergent 

562
00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:27,000
phenomenon. 
And what what happens in that, 

563
00:36:27,040 --> 00:36:29,240
in that what happened, you know,
when I was playing that game is 

564
00:36:29,240 --> 00:36:34,320
that currencies emerge within 
the game like where a certain 

565
00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:39,560
item start to be traded like 
like money, because it's 

566
00:36:39,560 --> 00:36:41,560
actually much more convenient 
for. 

567
00:36:42,520 --> 00:36:46,320
And it money is just so 
important and so useful in 

568
00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:48,240
society. 
So we don't have to be like 

569
00:36:48,240 --> 00:36:50,280
bothering with each other like I
want to give you. 

570
00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:52,840
You know, my sword for your 
shield? 

571
00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:54,640
It's like, well, is that the 
really worth? 

572
00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:59,320
It's like, well, what if we've 
got this, this like stone that 

573
00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:02,400
we all recognize as money, Then 
that that that can make, you 

574
00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:06,680
know, that makes things just so 
much more convenient and easy 

575
00:37:06,680 --> 00:37:09,040
for trade. 
So money just emerges naturally.

576
00:37:09,040 --> 00:37:15,120
And if you see it, you know you 
can read. 

577
00:37:15,280 --> 00:37:18,240
You can read that. 
But you're not convinced. 

578
00:37:18,240 --> 00:37:21,560
But once you've experienced that
in the real world, like if you 

579
00:37:21,560 --> 00:37:26,400
went to jail and you know, had 
cigarettes, or if you, you know,

580
00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:29,360
had some kind of computer 
simulation of it where you're 

581
00:37:29,360 --> 00:37:33,560
actually in in in a digital 
world and you witnessed the 

582
00:37:33,560 --> 00:37:40,440
emergence of money, you're going
to learn a lot faster so. 

583
00:37:41,680 --> 00:37:45,360
I actually do think and it it 
it's it's quite amusing to me 

584
00:37:45,360 --> 00:37:48,400
because I've seen a lot of 
bitcoiners actually talk about 

585
00:37:48,520 --> 00:37:53,240
playing Diablo two and have how 
that like I've I've seen 

586
00:37:53,240 --> 00:37:56,320
Breedlove and a whole bunch of 
other bitcoiners talking about 

587
00:37:56,320 --> 00:37:58,560
that and Gigi talking about that
as well. 

588
00:37:58,560 --> 00:38:03,600
And it it it, it's just like you
get this sort super interesting 

589
00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:09,960
snapshot of real world economics
but speed up, because in in 

590
00:38:09,960 --> 00:38:13,800
Inside the Game there was. 
You have an evolution, you know,

591
00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:15,880
an emergence of a money and then
what? 

592
00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:18,080
And then what happens in any 
kind of system where you have 

593
00:38:18,080 --> 00:38:21,840
money, people start going, how 
do I create more of that money? 

594
00:38:23,160 --> 00:38:26,440
And then and then you get a 
hyperinflation of the money and 

595
00:38:26,440 --> 00:38:28,960
then and then a new money comes 
up as a result. 

596
00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:32,040
That's harder than that money. 
And you just live through. 

597
00:38:32,760 --> 00:38:35,560
You live through. 
Reality, but like really, really

598
00:38:35,560 --> 00:38:38,400
quickly. 
I really like this example 

599
00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:41,560
because I think you mentioned 
Robert Breedlove, right? 

600
00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:43,720
He has the podcast What, What is
Money? 

601
00:38:43,880 --> 00:38:47,000
His entire podcast is about the 
question, what is money, right? 

602
00:38:47,000 --> 00:38:49,200
Because it's such a big 
question. 

603
00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:54,920
I kind of follow the definition,
You know, like money is a a 

604
00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:58,760
technology or something that we 
use to exchange value with each 

605
00:38:58,760 --> 00:39:01,880
other, right? 
But when people think about 

606
00:39:01,880 --> 00:39:03,880
money, they think about the 
dollar bills, right? 

607
00:39:03,880 --> 00:39:07,360
Or the Euro bills. 
But that's a currency, right? 

608
00:39:07,360 --> 00:39:14,920
So I I like the gaming example 
because once you can trade in a 

609
00:39:14,920 --> 00:39:20,080
certain context, trade whatever 
you deem has value, right? 

610
00:39:20,080 --> 00:39:26,280
Whether in game items, whether 
locally I trade my orange juice 

611
00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:34,720
for your breads, whatever. 
People will find a way to find 

612
00:39:34,720 --> 00:39:40,640
like a third thing that will 
represent the value. 

613
00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:43,520
Because I don't always want your
breadth or you don't always want

614
00:39:43,520 --> 00:39:46,440
my orange juice or your shield 
or sword or whatever. 

615
00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:54,720
And I think that's a really good
threat for people to also like 

616
00:39:54,720 --> 00:39:59,000
pull on, right. 
Because if you agree with that 

617
00:39:59,000 --> 00:40:00,440
and then you think further, 
right. 

618
00:40:00,440 --> 00:40:03,160
OK. 
Well, but if the dollars or the 

619
00:40:03,160 --> 00:40:07,840
EUR that are used? 
That I use are defined as money.

620
00:40:08,720 --> 00:40:12,400
Who controls the money, right? 
Or who should decide what that 

621
00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:14,880
money is worth? 
Should the people who use the 

622
00:40:14,880 --> 00:40:18,760
technology decide that like in 
the Diablo game, right? 

623
00:40:19,960 --> 00:40:28,120
Or should a third party some 
institution with other people 

624
00:40:28,120 --> 00:40:31,800
that I don't know? 
Should they decide what the 

625
00:40:31,800 --> 00:40:35,720
money is worth, Right. 
And once you start like kind of 

626
00:40:35,720 --> 00:40:39,760
asking those questions, I think 
you you start taking those 

627
00:40:39,760 --> 00:40:44,840
little steps towards towards at 
least understanding like the 

628
00:40:44,840 --> 00:40:51,880
system that you are in some way 
forcibly part of and also 

629
00:40:51,880 --> 00:40:54,200
questioning your own beliefs. 
Like, did I understand that 

630
00:40:54,200 --> 00:40:55,600
before? 
No. 

631
00:40:55,920 --> 00:40:57,360
What do I actually think about 
it? 

632
00:40:57,400 --> 00:41:02,080
Well, makes me uneasy, right? 
But damn, now I have to do 

633
00:41:02,080 --> 00:41:05,560
something right. 
You can stay ignorant, but I 

634
00:41:05,560 --> 00:41:11,640
think at one point you cannot be
consciously ignorant anymore, 

635
00:41:11,880 --> 00:41:13,640
right? 
Because the money affects your 

636
00:41:13,640 --> 00:41:20,120
day-to-day or weekly life and 
your interactions and and your 

637
00:41:20,120 --> 00:41:22,200
hopes and dreams or children or 
whatever. 

638
00:41:22,200 --> 00:41:24,800
Like it. 
It it's, you know, permeates 

639
00:41:24,800 --> 00:41:32,440
everywhere. 
Yeah, and the thing that's. 

640
00:41:35,120 --> 00:41:40,760
The thing that the thing about 
money is that it's there is an 

641
00:41:40,760 --> 00:41:45,760
exchange rate that people can 
see like it's so in your face 

642
00:41:47,080 --> 00:41:53,440
with Bitcoin, so whatever, 
whatever a point you became 

643
00:41:54,600 --> 00:41:58,680
aware about it. 
Fast forward 5-10 years in the 

644
00:41:58,680 --> 00:42:02,160
exchange, you know. 
Inevitably, Bitcoin is, you 

645
00:42:02,160 --> 00:42:05,600
know, 10 to 100 times more 
valuable than than what it was 

646
00:42:07,200 --> 00:42:13,000
at at one point. 
And it's really hard to ignore 

647
00:42:13,000 --> 00:42:16,240
that forever. 
Like it's it's just extreme. 

648
00:42:16,280 --> 00:42:21,960
Like that's why I think that's 
such a big reason why we get 

649
00:42:21,960 --> 00:42:25,160
these kind of waves of adoption,
I mean. 

650
00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:29,000
Yes, there's like, of course 
there's like a greed element to 

651
00:42:29,000 --> 00:42:30,840
it, right? 
And you know, there's always 

652
00:42:30,840 --> 00:42:33,560
fear and greed. 
But I don't think it's as simple

653
00:42:33,560 --> 00:42:36,440
as like fear and greed. 
Because what also happens is 

654
00:42:36,440 --> 00:42:41,800
there's waves of understanding 
and you know when, when, when 

655
00:42:41,800 --> 00:42:46,440
Bitcoin like in the next sort of
bull run and Bitcoin starts, you

656
00:42:46,440 --> 00:42:49,480
know bitcoin's at 100,000 and 
higher or whatever. 

657
00:42:50,640 --> 00:42:54,840
All these people that were 
looking at it, it's such a. 

658
00:42:55,640 --> 00:43:00,920
Catalyzing moment for them to 
question their existing priors 

659
00:43:01,480 --> 00:43:07,480
because you once you've looked 
at it and then got you know 

660
00:43:07,480 --> 00:43:12,760
dismissed it and then you're 
satisfied that it's died and now

661
00:43:12,760 --> 00:43:15,200
you've been like really happy 
that you dismissed it. 

662
00:43:15,680 --> 00:43:20,840
Yeah, and then it comes back. 
That's such a glass shattering 

663
00:43:20,840 --> 00:43:23,920
moment for. 
Everybody I think. 

664
00:43:24,160 --> 00:43:30,480
I think every bitcoiner has had 
that experience to some extent 

665
00:43:30,480 --> 00:43:37,120
and and and every person will 
and it it it's particularly as 

666
00:43:37,120 --> 00:43:44,920
well because Bitcoin is this 
social network and So what what 

667
00:43:44,920 --> 00:43:47,200
happens also when the price goes
up is you know more and more 

668
00:43:47,200 --> 00:43:51,440
people are are into it and it 
starts to be like is it kind of.

669
00:43:53,880 --> 00:43:56,760
Acceptable for me to be a part 
of this network and you don't. 

670
00:43:56,760 --> 00:44:00,400
You know, like only certain 
types of individuals want to 

671
00:44:00,400 --> 00:44:03,560
want to be in at the very, very 
beginning because they don't 

672
00:44:03,560 --> 00:44:07,160
want. 
You know, only certain types of 

673
00:44:07,160 --> 00:44:13,960
people want to be doing things 
that most people are not. 

674
00:44:15,000 --> 00:44:19,560
You know, you know, like and and
and for various different 

675
00:44:19,560 --> 00:44:23,680
reasons from if you're like an 
investment, an investor, you 

676
00:44:23,680 --> 00:44:27,080
just have career risk. 
I mean, even if you're if you're

677
00:44:27,080 --> 00:44:31,480
managing like a pension fund or 
something, you might even be 

678
00:44:31,480 --> 00:44:35,000
buying Bitcoin yourself. 
But that's why Plan B is 

679
00:44:35,000 --> 00:44:36,640
anonymous. 
Yeah. 

680
00:44:36,800 --> 00:44:40,920
Well, yeah, I mean exactly. 
It's like you might even be you 

681
00:44:40,920 --> 00:44:43,120
might even be buying it 
yourself, but it's like. 

682
00:44:44,080 --> 00:44:47,200
Why would I take, you know, I 
know it's going to be volatile. 

683
00:44:47,200 --> 00:44:50,840
I was like, why would I sort of 
take that risk myself? 

684
00:44:50,880 --> 00:44:54,840
But over time, the career risk 
goes away because more and more 

685
00:44:54,840 --> 00:44:56,880
people see it as being 
acceptable. 

686
00:44:56,880 --> 00:45:01,760
I mean, once you have kind of 
head of Black Rock being like, 

687
00:45:02,160 --> 00:45:04,960
you know, yeah, I like Bitcoin. 
I believe in Bitcoin. 

688
00:45:04,960 --> 00:45:10,800
It's like, well, it's hard to 
laugh at somebody for believing 

689
00:45:10,800 --> 00:45:13,600
in Bitcoin because it's like 
you're going to, you know, so. 

690
00:45:14,720 --> 00:45:17,360
And that's just, that's true in 
every, every step of the way. 

691
00:45:17,360 --> 00:45:22,040
I mean, that was true in in 2020
when Michael Saylor really got 

692
00:45:22,040 --> 00:45:26,560
into Bitcoin big time, and then 
a whole bunch of other dismissed

693
00:45:26,560 --> 00:45:29,680
it before big time as well. 
He dismissed it before. 

694
00:45:29,680 --> 00:45:33,440
I mean that's, that's what I 
mean to illustrate like that's 

695
00:45:34,080 --> 00:45:40,080
normal. 
Yeah, yeah, you know, it's like.

696
00:45:44,360 --> 00:45:52,320
Well look, as more people you 
respect come into it, the fear 

697
00:45:52,320 --> 00:45:56,040
of being doing something stupid 
goes away. 

698
00:45:56,960 --> 00:46:04,360
And that, and that's also why 
like you know, like Twitter or X

699
00:46:04,360 --> 00:46:11,360
is so important for people 
because. 

700
00:46:12,040 --> 00:46:16,720
When you have that kind of 
network online of bitcoiners, 

701
00:46:17,560 --> 00:46:21,800
that's like a constant reminder,
like no matter what happens to 

702
00:46:21,800 --> 00:46:25,880
the price, like you're not, 
you're not crazy like you. 

703
00:46:26,280 --> 00:46:28,960
It's easy to kind of like 
question yourself because you 

704
00:46:28,960 --> 00:46:31,880
think you see something that you
know, you walk around the 

705
00:46:31,880 --> 00:46:36,800
streets and most people in in 
you, most people you meet don't 

706
00:46:36,800 --> 00:46:39,200
see what you see and you think 
you see something. 

707
00:46:40,400 --> 00:46:42,800
Quite extraordinary. 
And then it's like it's easy to 

708
00:46:42,800 --> 00:46:47,440
question yourself, but when you 
have so many people that like 

709
00:46:47,680 --> 00:46:52,400
like minded people on in your 
kind of digital world, it 

710
00:46:52,440 --> 00:46:58,440
provides that reassurance, which
is what, which is what everybody

711
00:46:58,440 --> 00:47:03,760
needs actually. 
So a few weeks ago I went to my 

712
00:47:03,760 --> 00:47:10,080
first Bitcoin conference ever in
Amsterdam and and went to this 

713
00:47:10,080 --> 00:47:14,040
talk and the whole room was 
packed. 

714
00:47:14,200 --> 00:47:16,440
I couldn't find the seat 
anymore, so I had to like stand 

715
00:47:16,440 --> 00:47:18,400
in the back and like the hallway
and look in. 

716
00:47:19,160 --> 00:47:22,520
And at that point I actually 
realized, like damn, all these 

717
00:47:22,520 --> 00:47:26,680
people see what I see. 
This is very cool actually to be

718
00:47:26,680 --> 00:47:29,840
amongst those people and I had a
lot of conversations with lots 

719
00:47:29,840 --> 00:47:32,600
of different people with lots of
different backgrounds and just 

720
00:47:32,600 --> 00:47:39,920
really, really nice to do get 
some confirmation right that 

721
00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:44,160
you're not crazy and and see 
something and yeah, I love that.

722
00:47:44,160 --> 00:47:49,480
And also I think what I what I I
love what you said about you 

723
00:47:49,480 --> 00:47:52,360
know and is he someone from 
BlackRock or Fidelity. 

724
00:47:52,360 --> 00:47:55,960
You know these people say like 
Bitcoin can transcend currencies

725
00:47:55,960 --> 00:47:58,160
and it's exponential gold 
etcetera. 

726
00:47:58,160 --> 00:48:03,160
You know, like that sounds like 
promoting and shilling it a bit,

727
00:48:03,160 --> 00:48:05,160
right? 
Obviously because they want to 

728
00:48:05,160 --> 00:48:08,200
launch ETFs. 
But I also I personally have 

729
00:48:08,200 --> 00:48:11,000
like experience in in 
traditional finance as well and 

730
00:48:11,000 --> 00:48:14,480
I walked around in these 
corporate companies like stuff 

731
00:48:14,480 --> 00:48:21,240
like that does not get said 
before they absolutely no even 

732
00:48:21,240 --> 00:48:27,480
they convinced the the legal 
lady who's in in in the tower on

733
00:48:27,480 --> 00:48:31,200
the 11th floor in the corner 
where you know you come with 

734
00:48:31,200 --> 00:48:34,560
your new project or idea and say
like this is what I want to do. 

735
00:48:34,560 --> 00:48:38,720
And then she she's very strict. 
You know I will say why do you 

736
00:48:38,720 --> 00:48:41,520
want to do that right. 
Like they convinced all these 

737
00:48:41,520 --> 00:48:45,360
people and they took along all 
these stakeholders within this 

738
00:48:45,360 --> 00:48:48,600
company for their investors all 
these things like they don't say

739
00:48:48,600 --> 00:48:52,880
this for nothing. 
So they understand, you know and

740
00:48:54,440 --> 00:48:58,840
for me that's like also a nice 
confirmation in the sense like 

741
00:48:58,840 --> 00:49:02,080
I'd rather for those companies 
not to have Bitcoin and it's 

742
00:49:02,080 --> 00:49:07,320
only you know, just citizens 
like us who who hold the Bitcoin

743
00:49:07,320 --> 00:49:10,440
and not these corporations. 
But when you hear something like

744
00:49:10,440 --> 00:49:13,960
that, you have to really think 
about, you know, like they 

745
00:49:13,960 --> 00:49:16,920
actually they know like they 
understand they will never say 

746
00:49:16,920 --> 00:49:19,320
these things without actually 
understanding, you know. 

747
00:49:19,320 --> 00:49:23,720
And that's that's something that
I thought about when when you 

748
00:49:23,720 --> 00:49:28,360
just talked. 
And also what I think is a good 

749
00:49:28,880 --> 00:49:33,960
awakening moment is people go 
to, it's probably free. 

750
00:49:33,960 --> 00:49:36,880
But if you go to 
tradingview.com, which is like a

751
00:49:36,880 --> 00:49:42,200
trading chart tool, we talked 
about like price and value, 

752
00:49:42,200 --> 00:49:43,480
right. 
And when in the beginning you 

753
00:49:43,480 --> 00:49:46,440
talked about like houses going 
up, but the houses go up in the 

754
00:49:46,440 --> 00:49:49,520
number of the currency, right. 
And when you say like the 

755
00:49:50,040 --> 00:49:54,200
currencies will go to Infinity, 
it's mainly the the units will 

756
00:49:54,200 --> 00:49:56,720
go to Infinity, but the value 
will go down, right. 

757
00:49:56,720 --> 00:50:00,880
So the value of a house or 
houses has not really changed. 

758
00:50:00,880 --> 00:50:02,440
Yes. 
The price, the number people 

759
00:50:02,440 --> 00:50:03,880
see, right. 
The value. 

760
00:50:04,800 --> 00:50:07,520
Yeah, A house is not more 
important than 100 years ago, 

761
00:50:07,600 --> 00:50:09,600
right. 
A roof and walls and and 

762
00:50:09,600 --> 00:50:13,000
windows. 
So I saw this British hotel 

763
00:50:13,000 --> 00:50:16,280
share this on Twitter. 
If you go to tradingview.com and

764
00:50:16,960 --> 00:50:22,440
you first take like S&P 500, 
NASDAQ Gold Housing Market Index

765
00:50:22,440 --> 00:50:26,840
and you put it in price, you see
it, it's all going up, right? 

766
00:50:26,840 --> 00:50:30,200
So the units of the of the 
currency, they're all going up. 

767
00:50:30,720 --> 00:50:35,280
But when you put it in M2, which
is the money supply, everything 

768
00:50:35,280 --> 00:50:38,320
is down. 
You can pick any any assets, any

769
00:50:38,320 --> 00:50:43,640
big category of assets and 
everything is down except one. 

770
00:50:45,040 --> 00:50:48,880
And that is just so crazy to 
see. 

771
00:50:48,880 --> 00:50:53,280
Like that really doesn't make 
this an opinion, right? 

772
00:50:53,280 --> 00:50:56,520
Like it's actually, it's 
actually happening. 

773
00:50:56,520 --> 00:50:58,720
And I would love to share that 
with more people. 

774
00:50:58,720 --> 00:51:02,240
Like when when people like you 
and I talk like this about 

775
00:51:02,240 --> 00:51:05,000
Bitcoin, it's not, it's not 
opinions like this is actually 

776
00:51:05,000 --> 00:51:07,280
happening all outside of our 
influence. 

777
00:51:07,280 --> 00:51:09,840
This is already happening, 
right? 

778
00:51:09,840 --> 00:51:11,880
So please look at that. 
If you don't want to listen to a

779
00:51:11,880 --> 00:51:15,880
person, just look at that screen
and think about what what that 

780
00:51:15,880 --> 00:51:17,840
tells you. 
Yeah. 

781
00:51:17,840 --> 00:51:23,960
And I I think, I think you made 
a a really, a really salient 

782
00:51:23,960 --> 00:51:27,880
point about it's all out of our 
influence. 

783
00:51:27,880 --> 00:51:32,000
It's completely out of our 
influence, which is, which is 

784
00:51:32,000 --> 00:51:41,240
why it's, which is why. 
Like part of why, I guess Kat. 

785
00:51:41,880 --> 00:51:44,160
Kat wants to say hello. 
No worries. 

786
00:51:44,360 --> 00:51:48,080
Hey, Kat. 
Which is why it's part of why, 

787
00:51:48,080 --> 00:51:55,560
like, I feel so comfortable 
openly advocating for Bitcoin, 

788
00:51:56,840 --> 00:52:03,880
like on on Twitter to to people.
Because it's like, so you're 

789
00:52:03,880 --> 00:52:08,160
not, you're not doing it like 
you are the founder and you're 

790
00:52:08,160 --> 00:52:09,880
shilling. 
It's like that's not what's 

791
00:52:09,880 --> 00:52:10,920
happening. 
Yeah, no. 

792
00:52:10,960 --> 00:52:14,080
And and by the way, like there's
no. 

793
00:52:14,760 --> 00:52:18,000
There's no world in which I 
would like. 

794
00:52:19,120 --> 00:52:24,000
I can't. 
There's nothing I can do to, you

795
00:52:24,000 --> 00:52:25,840
know, move the needle on the 
price, right? 

796
00:52:25,840 --> 00:52:29,000
Like, I can't like, like if 
somebody like, I talk to 

797
00:52:29,000 --> 00:52:32,120
somebody and I'm like, I 
genuinely like, for me 

798
00:52:32,120 --> 00:52:34,600
personally, I don't care whether
you buy or sell. 

799
00:52:34,640 --> 00:52:36,200
Like it doesn't affect me at 
all. 

800
00:52:38,840 --> 00:52:43,000
You know, for you I would, I 
would recommend you get some 

801
00:52:43,000 --> 00:52:47,280
Bitcoin. 
I think so, because I can see 

802
00:52:47,280 --> 00:52:50,120
what's what's happening. 
I can see, I can see what's 

803
00:52:50,120 --> 00:52:55,440
happening to, you know, I I can 
see what's happening to these 

804
00:52:55,440 --> 00:52:57,280
Fiat currencies and I can see 
what's happening to Bitcoin. 

805
00:52:57,280 --> 00:53:01,760
And it's it's it's it's all it's
very obvious to me but you know 

806
00:53:01,760 --> 00:53:07,400
it it there's nothing, there's 
nothing that there's nothing 

807
00:53:07,400 --> 00:53:10,200
that I can do to influence that.
Right. 

808
00:53:10,200 --> 00:53:13,680
So. 
This is this is a phenomenon 

809
00:53:13,680 --> 00:53:16,960
that's that's happening 
regardless. 

810
00:53:16,960 --> 00:53:20,440
Now I I do think that there are 
there there may be small cases 

811
00:53:20,440 --> 00:53:24,320
around the edge where I can't 
affect Bitcoin, but I can 

812
00:53:24,320 --> 00:53:27,680
definitely affect the people 
around me. 

813
00:53:27,680 --> 00:53:29,440
I can. 
I can definitely help more 

814
00:53:29,440 --> 00:53:35,120
people you know get onto get 
onto the lifeboat of Bitcoin and

815
00:53:35,120 --> 00:53:42,320
I I that that I want to, but. 
Ultimately these are forces far 

816
00:53:42,320 --> 00:53:45,400
greater than any any individual,
right. 

817
00:53:45,400 --> 00:53:51,200
This is like a Bitcoin is, you 
know, honestly it's 10,000 years

818
00:53:51,200 --> 00:53:53,920
in the making if you look at 
monetary history, right. 

819
00:53:53,920 --> 00:53:57,320
So it this is just the natural 
evolution of. 

820
00:53:59,160 --> 00:54:00,760
It's a natural evolution of 
money. 

821
00:54:01,360 --> 00:54:03,720
It's like it's like we're on 
that. 

822
00:54:03,720 --> 00:54:05,840
We just happen to be on the tip 
of the spear of it, because 

823
00:54:05,840 --> 00:54:08,360
it's, you know, 2023 and we 
happen to be alive in this 

824
00:54:08,360 --> 00:54:13,800
moment, but like. 
Yes, it's it's it's just like 

825
00:54:13,800 --> 00:54:16,520
an, you know, incredible 
situation to be a part of. 

826
00:54:16,520 --> 00:54:16,960
Really. 
Yeah. 

827
00:54:17,640 --> 00:54:20,960
Yeah, well and not during the 
seashell or the glass beads era,

828
00:54:20,960 --> 00:54:22,200
right. 
So we are just right. 

829
00:54:22,720 --> 00:54:24,440
We're just lucky. 
I I agree. 

830
00:54:25,520 --> 00:54:28,040
Well, but you are doing 
something you are actually 

831
00:54:28,040 --> 00:54:32,120
actually with your brother, you 
are building a company called 

832
00:54:32,120 --> 00:54:33,800
Apollo. 
Can you share a bit about that, 

833
00:54:33,800 --> 00:54:36,280
like why? 
How did you get started building

834
00:54:36,280 --> 00:54:40,240
that and like what do you do and
how do you see its future? 

835
00:54:41,600 --> 00:54:45,520
Yeah, sure. 
So look, it's it's three of us, 

836
00:54:45,520 --> 00:54:51,280
it's myself, it's it's my 
brother Julian who's the CEO and

837
00:54:51,280 --> 00:54:55,040
our other Co founders at Hill. 
And what what we're building is 

838
00:54:56,680 --> 00:55:00,160
essentially it's it's a place, 
it's a platform to discover and 

839
00:55:00,160 --> 00:55:02,520
compare Bitcoin products and 
services. 

840
00:55:04,000 --> 00:55:11,160
But what we're trying to do is. 
Really kind of bridge the trust 

841
00:55:11,200 --> 00:55:16,720
gap that people have, you know, 
not just like with Bitcoin, but 

842
00:55:16,720 --> 00:55:20,160
also with the kind of services 
that come along with it and try 

843
00:55:20,160 --> 00:55:26,320
and bring sort of I guess, I 
guess sort of decentralized that

844
00:55:26,320 --> 00:55:30,240
in some sense by using user 
reviews to actually. 

845
00:55:30,680 --> 00:55:34,280
Sort of separate the signal from
the noise with regards to these 

846
00:55:34,280 --> 00:55:36,560
you know different products in 
the industry. 

847
00:55:36,560 --> 00:55:39,200
We had you know what happened 
last, what happened last couple 

848
00:55:39,200 --> 00:55:41,720
of years with FTX was a 
disaster, right. 

849
00:55:42,760 --> 00:55:44,920
And we don't. 
We just, we don't, we never want

850
00:55:44,920 --> 00:55:50,040
to have that happen again And it
and if we had you know a 

851
00:55:50,040 --> 00:55:55,080
platform where you could 
actually find out what's 

852
00:55:55,080 --> 00:55:58,680
valuable and what's not, it 
would just be. 

853
00:55:59,160 --> 00:56:02,600
So useful. 
And so that's what we're 

854
00:56:02,600 --> 00:56:04,200
building. 
And the way we do that is we're 

855
00:56:04,200 --> 00:56:07,240
trying to source source reviews 
to products. 

856
00:56:07,280 --> 00:56:09,560
And then the cool thing about it
with, you know, you sort of 

857
00:56:09,560 --> 00:56:12,840
being able to use Bitcoin as a 
as a payment network by the 

858
00:56:12,840 --> 00:56:16,000
Lightning Network is that it 
means you can make instant 

859
00:56:16,000 --> 00:56:19,840
global payments to people all 
over the world at 0 fees, which 

860
00:56:19,840 --> 00:56:22,520
is kind of it's kind of like 
magic actually. 

861
00:56:22,520 --> 00:56:25,520
You can make these micro 
payments to people, and so you 

862
00:56:25,520 --> 00:56:28,080
can incentivize people to come 
write a review and they can. 

863
00:56:28,560 --> 00:56:31,760
They're just more likely to, you
know, they come to our, you 

864
00:56:31,760 --> 00:56:33,880
know, we get we get people from 
all over the world writing 

865
00:56:33,880 --> 00:56:36,760
reviews of these products and 
they do it because they get paid

866
00:56:36,760 --> 00:56:41,280
in Bitcoin to write the reviews.
So it kind of a creates a really

867
00:56:41,280 --> 00:56:46,960
nice flywheel of value for value
for everybody really. 

868
00:56:46,960 --> 00:56:49,560
You have the people that come in
and they get paid, you know, for

869
00:56:49,560 --> 00:56:52,600
their time to write a review and
then it it creates all this 

870
00:56:53,800 --> 00:56:56,040
valuable content that then we 
can. 

871
00:56:57,080 --> 00:57:00,840
Aggregate and present and just 
find like a really great source 

872
00:57:00,840 --> 00:57:04,000
for other people to come in and 
be like, oh you know, I want to 

873
00:57:04,000 --> 00:57:09,160
discover and compare products 
and now I've got a better tool 

874
00:57:09,160 --> 00:57:11,200
to do so. 
So that's that's really our 

875
00:57:11,200 --> 00:57:15,840
focus. 
Yeah, very cool. 

876
00:57:15,880 --> 00:57:18,640
Yeah, I love that you're doing 
that with with your brother, 

877
00:57:18,640 --> 00:57:22,480
too. 
Must be a fun, fun endeavor. 

878
00:57:22,480 --> 00:57:27,760
And also I thought about this 
last week like the next 40 or 50

879
00:57:27,760 --> 00:57:29,760
years we're going to be talking 
about Bitcoin, right? 

880
00:57:29,760 --> 00:57:34,000
Like that's also the timeline of
your company like you are you 

881
00:57:34,000 --> 00:57:35,920
are building towards the future 
so. 

882
00:57:36,720 --> 00:57:40,520
It's really cool. 
Well, look that that's the thing

883
00:57:40,520 --> 00:57:43,960
about it is, is that from a, 
from a self-interest point of 

884
00:57:43,960 --> 00:57:52,720
view, I want to we we want to 
attach ourselves to this wave 

885
00:57:52,720 --> 00:57:56,080
because we know, you know, it's 
like. 

886
00:57:56,520 --> 00:58:00,720
Every, every business has to be 
built on some sort of, you know,

887
00:58:01,040 --> 00:58:03,360
secret or something that you 
know that other people don't. 

888
00:58:03,360 --> 00:58:07,840
And it's like we know, we know 
there's this absolute wave of 

889
00:58:07,840 --> 00:58:14,760
adoption coming for Bitcoin and 
so we can be there to help 

890
00:58:14,760 --> 00:58:20,560
facilitate that and you know 
provide value to people to that.

891
00:58:20,560 --> 00:58:25,160
So it so it it just like we know
this wave is coming where we 

892
00:58:25,160 --> 00:58:28,080
have no doubt about that. 
And so we just want to be able 

893
00:58:28,080 --> 00:58:32,800
to be there to provide value to 
people when they do come because

894
00:58:32,800 --> 00:58:35,520
that's you know like that's the 
foundation of a good business. 

895
00:58:35,600 --> 00:58:43,840
So, yeah, look, I mean we're 
because the foundation is, you 

896
00:58:43,840 --> 00:58:47,040
know, so, so fundamentally 
excited and bullish about 

897
00:58:47,040 --> 00:58:51,720
Bitcoin adoption that it just 
makes so much sense to take that

898
00:58:51,720 --> 00:58:55,440
kind of macro trend. 
And build a business on it. 

899
00:58:55,480 --> 00:58:59,560
And then it just so happens that
you know through the Lighting 

900
00:58:59,560 --> 00:59:02,080
network we're able to use these 
like micro payments to do 

901
00:59:02,080 --> 00:59:05,040
something something cool that 
just like wasn't you know, 

902
00:59:05,640 --> 00:59:10,560
feasibly possible before but is 
now so very cool. 

903
00:59:10,640 --> 00:59:13,800
I I will. 
I will follow it with great 

904
00:59:13,800 --> 00:59:17,440
attention and excited to see 
where it goes. 

905
00:59:18,600 --> 00:59:21,480
To round up like I wanted to 
dive into some of your tweets. 

906
00:59:22,920 --> 00:59:25,720
You know how how you are memeing
Bitcoin into existence. 

907
00:59:25,720 --> 00:59:30,960
But I'm going to share my screen
here and see if that works. 

908
00:59:30,960 --> 00:59:32,720
Oh that works perfectly. 
That's great. 

909
00:59:34,000 --> 00:59:35,880
I love this. 
I love this one. 

910
00:59:36,440 --> 00:59:39,560
For the people who are not 
watching it's the text is if you

911
00:59:39,560 --> 00:59:42,440
don't believe me or I or don't 
get it I will try to explain it 

912
00:59:42,440 --> 00:59:45,760
to you because this is very 
important and it's a picture 

913
00:59:46,080 --> 00:59:50,360
that shows the price of 1OZ one 
ounce. 

914
00:59:50,360 --> 00:59:51,720
I said Oz. 
Yeah. 

915
00:59:51,720 --> 00:59:55,520
One an ounce of gold. 
Yeah, yeah, an ounce of gold 

916
00:59:55,520 --> 00:59:56,400
coin. 
Yeah. 

917
00:59:57,040 --> 00:59:59,480
You explain. 
Well, look, it's an ounce of 

918
00:59:59,480 --> 01:00:04,120
gold coin in 1933 and it's like 
the, you know, the Fiat to to to

919
01:00:04,160 --> 01:00:09,040
to pay for that and then all the
Fiat to get that same amount of 

920
01:00:09,040 --> 01:00:11,160
gold in in 2020. 
And you've got this, you know, 

921
01:00:11,160 --> 01:00:15,640
huge bundle of cash. 
And the caption is obviously a 

922
01:00:15,640 --> 01:00:20,200
play on the the very famous 
Satoshi Nakamoto quote. 

923
01:00:21,440 --> 01:00:24,440
You know where he says actually 
the kind of the opposite? 

924
01:00:24,440 --> 01:00:25,840
He says. 
Look, if you don't, if you don't

925
01:00:25,840 --> 01:00:28,040
get it, you don't believe. 
Believe me, I don't have time to

926
01:00:28,040 --> 01:00:29,080
explain it to you. 
Sorry. 

927
01:00:29,080 --> 01:00:31,840
Yeah, exactly. 
Yeah. 

928
01:00:31,840 --> 01:00:35,160
I mean. 
Well, the well this ties back 

929
01:00:35,160 --> 01:00:39,240
into what we talked about, 
right, the the, the one ounce 

930
01:00:39,240 --> 01:00:43,440
gold coin is did not change one 
ounce of gold is 1 ounce of 

931
01:00:43,440 --> 01:00:47,920
gold, right, the number of 
currency units. 

932
01:00:48,560 --> 01:00:53,360
The dollar in this example that 
you needed in 1933 was 20.67. 

933
01:00:54,080 --> 01:00:57,200
But because of all the money 
printing, there are more 

934
01:00:57,200 --> 01:01:02,560
currency units but their value 
goes down, whereas the value of 

935
01:01:02,560 --> 01:01:04,800
the gold coins stayed the same, 
right? 

936
01:01:04,800 --> 01:01:08,680
So the the currency in this case
is the denominator of that same 

937
01:01:08,680 --> 01:01:12,960
piece of gold. 
And now you need 17170 units of 

938
01:01:12,960 --> 01:01:16,640
the of the same thing, the same,
the same dollars, right. 

939
01:01:18,880 --> 01:01:23,920
Look, and it it's, it's, it's 
funny because I, you know, 

940
01:01:23,920 --> 01:01:27,040
there's a lot of people in the 
replies to that tweet about, you

941
01:01:27,040 --> 01:01:30,360
know, saying yeah, well This is 
why, This is why gold. 

942
01:01:31,320 --> 01:01:37,720
And it's like, it's like, look, 
gold was the strongest, hardest 

943
01:01:37,720 --> 01:01:43,680
money, you know, in the universe
until Bitcoin came around. 

944
01:01:44,360 --> 01:01:50,240
Like like, yes, it is true. 
You know, if this was 50 years 

945
01:01:50,240 --> 01:01:55,040
ago, you know, if I don't, and 
if we were talking 50 years ago 

946
01:01:55,880 --> 01:01:57,760
and we were having this 
conversation, we'd probably be 

947
01:01:57,760 --> 01:02:01,480
saying like, get your butt, you 
know, gold, gold bars. 

948
01:02:02,200 --> 01:02:11,000
But something has been made 
better. 

949
01:02:11,120 --> 01:02:17,240
You know it's it's been 
digitally transformed into into 

950
01:02:17,240 --> 01:02:21,840
something that's that's harder, 
harder to make easier to 

951
01:02:21,840 --> 01:02:23,560
transfer. 
It's just better and it's it's 

952
01:02:23,560 --> 01:02:26,480
synthetically perfect is what 
it's synthetically perfect. 

953
01:02:26,480 --> 01:02:32,720
Money is what is what it is. 
And so it's like, you know 

954
01:02:33,480 --> 01:02:41,280
people people can interpret that
as what what they're The gold 

955
01:02:41,280 --> 01:02:47,200
thing is interesting to me 
because what it does is it kind 

956
01:02:47,200 --> 01:02:48,920
of it's an intelligence test in 
a way. 

957
01:02:48,920 --> 01:02:53,040
It kind of exposes the the 
people that they they're kind of

958
01:02:53,040 --> 01:02:55,040
gold bugs, but they don't know 
why they're gold bugs. 

959
01:02:55,160 --> 01:02:58,840
Like they they they gold bugs, 
but they gold bugs because it's 

960
01:02:58,840 --> 01:03:00,800
like, Oh yeah, because you know 
history. 

961
01:03:00,960 --> 01:03:05,280
It's like it's like, no, it's 
like you need to well, you can 

962
01:03:05,280 --> 01:03:07,760
think that way, but that's 
that's not very smart. 

963
01:03:07,760 --> 01:03:11,640
You should actually try and 
understand why Gold, why Gold 

964
01:03:11,640 --> 01:03:13,640
had these properties over this 
time. 

965
01:03:15,520 --> 01:03:17,160
And some people get that and 
some people don't. 

966
01:03:17,160 --> 01:03:19,160
But that's what this tweet is 
about. 

967
01:03:19,880 --> 01:03:26,120
Yeah, the next the next one says
capitalized letters. 

968
01:03:26,120 --> 01:03:30,680
It says Bitcoin. 
And you you shared an image of a

969
01:03:30,680 --> 01:03:32,520
text. 
Where where is that from? 

970
01:03:32,520 --> 01:03:35,400
Do you remember? 
Yeah, it's a it's a quote from 

971
01:03:35,480 --> 01:03:39,480
way dye. 
So like a hugely influential 

972
01:03:40,280 --> 01:03:45,680
cryptographer. 
Yeah, I mean look it, it speaks 

973
01:03:45,680 --> 01:03:54,400
for itself. 
But I think that this is like if

974
01:03:54,400 --> 01:04:00,280
it's not obvious that this is 
happening, it it like 

975
01:04:00,280 --> 01:04:05,080
particularly over the last few 
years, then I don't know why. 

976
01:04:05,280 --> 01:04:08,520
Like I I don't know how. 
I mean, maybe like I had. 

977
01:04:09,520 --> 01:04:11,120
Look, and the quote is 
happening. 

978
01:04:11,120 --> 01:04:15,200
You mean the reducing the 
freedom of the citizens? 

979
01:04:15,960 --> 01:04:18,200
Yeah, I mean, look, the quote 
says there's never been a 

980
01:04:18,200 --> 01:04:21,200
government that didn't sooner or
later try to reduce the freedom,

981
01:04:21,520 --> 01:04:23,960
you know, of its, of its 
subjects and gain more control 

982
01:04:23,960 --> 01:04:27,040
over them. 
And you know it goes on to talk 

983
01:04:27,040 --> 01:04:30,520
about how we, we have to make 
it. 

984
01:04:30,600 --> 01:04:33,160
We we have to use the technology
to make that impossible for the 

985
01:04:33,160 --> 01:04:37,960
government because it's an 
inevitability of the government.

986
01:04:37,960 --> 01:04:41,200
I mean this is a comment on, 
it's not a comment about any 

987
01:04:41,200 --> 01:04:43,440
particular government, it's 
actually just a comment about 

988
01:04:44,440 --> 01:04:56,800
human, human nature. 
And you know, like I think it's 

989
01:04:57,440 --> 01:05:02,360
but very obviously the we we 
this would be harder to pitch to

990
01:05:02,360 --> 01:05:07,280
somebody 10 years ago. 
But we, you know, if you lived 

991
01:05:07,280 --> 01:05:11,080
through the COVID experience, 
which we all did, then it 

992
01:05:11,080 --> 01:05:16,440
shouldn't be all that 
controversial an idea, right? 

993
01:05:16,440 --> 01:05:19,240
It should. 
It should be pretty stark and 

994
01:05:19,240 --> 01:05:22,880
obvious to people, but I think, 
I think. 

995
01:05:22,960 --> 01:05:25,200
Oh, this is for people in 
Western countries, I'd say, 

996
01:05:25,200 --> 01:05:26,360
right? 
I mean, there's a lot of 

997
01:05:26,360 --> 01:05:32,560
countries, babe, that 20 years 
ago also experienced this, 

998
01:05:32,680 --> 01:05:34,800
right? 
So I think this is especially 

999
01:05:35,240 --> 01:05:39,160
confrontational for for people 
in Western countries and I 

1000
01:05:39,160 --> 01:05:45,640
think. 
I I I usually think that like we

1001
01:05:45,640 --> 01:05:48,680
grew up in such a great time and
everything went well and there 

1002
01:05:48,680 --> 01:05:51,080
was always money and water and 
food and whatever. 

1003
01:05:51,560 --> 01:05:55,000
Like we didn't. 
People didn't think about the 

1004
01:05:55,000 --> 01:05:58,800
government or the incentives 
that are there or not, right? 

1005
01:05:58,800 --> 01:06:04,800
Or like the type of 0 sum game 
that they are part of or the 

1006
01:06:04,800 --> 01:06:06,440
people in it are part of. 
Right. 

1007
01:06:06,440 --> 01:06:11,080
And so that's also why sooner or
later something like this will 

1008
01:06:11,080 --> 01:06:12,440
happen, right? 
It's not. 

1009
01:06:13,080 --> 01:06:15,800
So again, like I think that this
is something that is not really 

1010
01:06:15,800 --> 01:06:18,400
an opinion. 
Like if you look at history, it 

1011
01:06:18,400 --> 01:06:21,320
has happened over and over and 
these were not different, 

1012
01:06:21,800 --> 01:06:25,600
differently wired people than 
what we are now, right. 

1013
01:06:25,600 --> 01:06:30,760
So it's again, I think something
that when you share it, a lot of

1014
01:06:30,760 --> 01:06:33,600
people think like, oh, that 
might be your opinion, but it's 

1015
01:06:33,600 --> 01:06:37,320
actually just a reflection on. 
It's happened. 

1016
01:06:37,440 --> 01:06:39,280
It's a lesson of history, yeah. 
Exactly. 

1017
01:06:40,560 --> 01:06:42,760
This picture is from Breaking 
Bad, I think. 

1018
01:06:43,120 --> 01:06:45,800
Yeah, it is. 
Where Jesse hugs. 

1019
01:06:46,040 --> 01:06:47,280
What's his name? 
Walter. 

1020
01:06:47,480 --> 01:06:49,760
Walt. 
Yeah, you say. 

1021
01:06:50,040 --> 01:06:53,120
It's a lot to swallow at first 
in the picture, Walter says Me 

1022
01:06:53,640 --> 01:06:56,960
and the friends who finally 
researched how field money works

1023
01:06:56,960 --> 01:07:00,440
is crying, etcetera. 
Why did you do it? 

1024
01:07:00,520 --> 01:07:06,160
This, yeah, I mean, look, I've 
well, I mean, I think it's 

1025
01:07:06,160 --> 01:07:14,800
funny, but. 
But it's funny, but I mean. 

1026
01:07:14,800 --> 01:07:16,480
It's like an unseen thing, 
right? 

1027
01:07:16,480 --> 01:07:18,960
Like you cannot Unsee it once 
you see it or something. 

1028
01:07:19,400 --> 01:07:23,280
Well, I mean it expresses, it 
expresses a couple of different 

1029
01:07:23,280 --> 01:07:26,040
things. 
One is the I think I think all 

1030
01:07:26,040 --> 01:07:30,600
the Bitcoin is sort of you you 
know all the Bitcoiners see that

1031
01:07:30,600 --> 01:07:33,800
and I I am that's that's you 
know I'm Walt in that that that 

1032
01:07:33,800 --> 01:07:37,520
picture because you know you've 
been trying to convince you're 

1033
01:07:37,520 --> 01:07:42,280
sort of like at at a certain 
point along the way it's almost 

1034
01:07:43,840 --> 01:07:46,880
I don't know tiring or you you 
you you you see something and 

1035
01:07:46,960 --> 01:07:49,440
and other people don't see it 
and you don't like why don't you

1036
01:07:49,440 --> 01:07:54,880
see it it's it can be maybe 
dispiriting or whatever but then

1037
01:07:54,880 --> 01:07:57,880
it's like it's like when they 
when they finally when they 

1038
01:07:57,880 --> 01:07:58,680
finally. 
See. 

1039
01:07:58,680 --> 01:08:00,920
Yeah, it's like it's a happy 
moment. 

1040
01:08:01,480 --> 01:08:04,280
Yeah. 
Yeah, it's both a happy moment. 

1041
01:08:04,280 --> 01:08:06,880
But you're also acknowledging, I
mean like. 

1042
01:08:09,080 --> 01:08:10,320
Yeah, it's a lot. 
It's hard. 

1043
01:08:10,920 --> 01:08:14,040
It's it's hard because when you,
when you finally understand 

1044
01:08:14,040 --> 01:08:16,560
Bitcoin, you also kind of 
understand just how fucked up 

1045
01:08:16,560 --> 01:08:22,479
the rest of the world is. 
And so it is like it is kind of 

1046
01:08:22,600 --> 01:08:26,800
a it is a lot actually, yeah. 
Yeah, this one was great. 

1047
01:08:27,920 --> 01:08:32,960
This one I also really liked. 
Oh I I zoomed in on my screen 

1048
01:08:34,439 --> 01:08:37,040
with You mentioned crypto before
right? 

1049
01:08:37,040 --> 01:08:40,960
And that it also confuses people
like the other crypto assets. 

1050
01:08:43,359 --> 01:08:46,760
And this this you tweeted. 
Beware of crypto and you tweet a

1051
01:08:46,760 --> 01:08:49,520
quote. 
Apparently a Turkish proverb, 

1052
01:08:49,520 --> 01:08:52,439
but it says the forest was 
shrinking but the trees kept 

1053
01:08:52,439 --> 01:08:54,760
voting for the axe. 
For the axe was clever and 

1054
01:08:54,760 --> 01:09:00,319
convinced that the trees 
convinced the trees that because

1055
01:09:00,319 --> 01:09:02,920
of his handle was made of wood, 
he was one of them. 

1056
01:09:04,000 --> 01:09:05,600
Right. 
So I'm a cryptocurrency. 

1057
01:09:05,600 --> 01:09:08,040
I'm. 
I'm one of the, yeah, 

1058
01:09:08,040 --> 01:09:12,520
altruistic, good, good guy, good
guys, yeah. 

1059
01:09:12,720 --> 01:09:17,439
But whereas Bitcoin is. 
Decentralized protocol that just

1060
01:09:17,439 --> 01:09:21,800
runs and includes lots of 
different discoveries. 

1061
01:09:21,800 --> 01:09:27,760
Everything after Bitcoin is kind
of another version. 

1062
01:09:28,000 --> 01:09:29,880
Well, yeah, how would you say 
that? 

1063
01:09:29,880 --> 01:09:35,000
Like a flawed version of the 
same thing or an attempt at it, 

1064
01:09:35,000 --> 01:09:37,399
right. 
I think as there was a report by

1065
01:09:37,399 --> 01:09:41,680
Fidelity that said that Bitcoin 
is akin to fire or the wheel. 

1066
01:09:41,680 --> 01:09:43,600
There's no better fire. 
There's no better wheel. 

1067
01:09:44,680 --> 01:09:48,720
Yeah, I think that's right. 
And the thing that people have 

1068
01:09:48,720 --> 01:09:55,440
to understand is that it's 
because of its properties. 

1069
01:09:55,440 --> 01:10:00,240
It's it's like it's not, it's 
it's because it's the only 

1070
01:10:00,760 --> 01:10:08,440
decentralized currency that 
isn't controlled by anyone that 

1071
01:10:09,440 --> 01:10:13,680
that makes it, that makes it 
what it what, what it is. 

1072
01:10:13,680 --> 01:10:17,720
You know, it's not, it's not 
about, it's not about the the 

1073
01:10:17,720 --> 01:10:20,720
fixed supply. 
It's about the credibility of 

1074
01:10:20,720 --> 01:10:25,720
the fixed supply because, you 
know, like the US government 

1075
01:10:26,080 --> 01:10:28,240
today or, you know, any 
government today can be like, 

1076
01:10:28,240 --> 01:10:30,520
hey, look, we're not going to 
print anymore. 

1077
01:10:30,520 --> 01:10:34,440
We're going to just say that and
it's like, oh, OK then we've got

1078
01:10:34,440 --> 01:10:35,880
a fixed supply, right. 
Right. 

1079
01:10:35,960 --> 01:10:38,680
I mean it's like, well, no, 
because it's not, it's not 

1080
01:10:38,680 --> 01:10:42,160
credible and. 
Yeah. 

1081
01:10:42,160 --> 01:10:45,800
You don't let yourself be 
enforced basically this this. 

1082
01:10:45,880 --> 01:10:48,280
Yeah. 
And it's and it's not just the, 

1083
01:10:48,360 --> 01:10:52,040
it's not just the the credit. 
It's not just a fixed supply. 

1084
01:10:52,040 --> 01:10:57,040
It's actually the credibility of
the permissionless aspect of 

1085
01:10:57,040 --> 01:11:01,760
using the money. 
Because if you're, if I'm using,

1086
01:11:03,080 --> 01:11:07,560
you know, somebody else's, 
somebody else's coin and then 

1087
01:11:07,560 --> 01:11:09,240
I'm the government, I can go to 
that person. 

1088
01:11:09,240 --> 01:11:12,120
I can say, well, you better stop
them using it, you know, or I'm 

1089
01:11:12,120 --> 01:11:15,080
going to put you in jail. 
And then they're going to comply

1090
01:11:15,080 --> 01:11:16,880
with that, with, you know, 
they're going to, they're going 

1091
01:11:16,880 --> 01:11:20,600
to comply with that. 
But the magic of Bitcoin is that

1092
01:11:20,600 --> 01:11:25,160
there's no, there's nobody to go
after because nobody controls 

1093
01:11:25,160 --> 01:11:28,640
it. 
So, you know, it's actually a 

1094
01:11:28,640 --> 01:11:30,240
very interesting thought 
experiment. 

1095
01:11:30,400 --> 01:11:42,040
Like there could be a world in 
which you could, as the way the 

1096
01:11:42,040 --> 01:11:43,880
world played out, there was only
one Bitcoin. 

1097
01:11:44,040 --> 01:11:47,880
But there isn't like an 
interesting theoretical world 

1098
01:11:47,880 --> 01:11:53,240
where at the exact same time 
that Satoshi Nakamoto created 

1099
01:11:53,240 --> 01:11:59,520
Bitcoin, you also had, say, in 
China, the creation of another. 

1100
01:11:59,600 --> 01:12:02,920
You'd like another sort of 
Bitcoin at the exact same time, 

1101
01:12:03,320 --> 01:12:07,440
and they developed almost like 
an and maybe, you know, people 

1102
01:12:07,440 --> 01:12:10,360
weren't talking with with each 
other or communicating with each

1103
01:12:10,360 --> 01:12:15,120
other, and maybe they ended up 
creating like parallel bitcoins.

1104
01:12:15,120 --> 01:12:17,400
It's like theoretically 
impossible that you could have 

1105
01:12:17,720 --> 01:12:21,440
the exact same properties of 
Bitcoin in another network. 

1106
01:12:21,600 --> 01:12:25,600
Like maybe if there are aliens, 
you know, in another Galaxy, 

1107
01:12:26,600 --> 01:12:29,160
they've created their own. 
Kind of bit like it is. 

1108
01:12:30,280 --> 01:12:32,840
Theoretically, that there's 
another Bitcoin in general, you 

1109
01:12:32,840 --> 01:12:35,520
mean like the same type of 
discovery? 

1110
01:12:35,920 --> 01:12:39,120
Exactly. 
But in our world, as it turned 

1111
01:12:39,120 --> 01:12:43,000
out, you know, there is only one
and there's and you can't and 

1112
01:12:43,000 --> 01:12:47,240
like you can't redo it, so you 
can't have like another one now.

1113
01:12:47,360 --> 01:12:52,000
But so you know, yeah, be aware 
of it. 

1114
01:12:52,000 --> 01:12:55,160
Because when people try and, you
know, talk about their own, 

1115
01:12:55,960 --> 01:12:57,800
their other crypto, it's just a 
distraction. 

1116
01:12:59,880 --> 01:13:04,800
Right last 1A Nietzsche quote. 
I'm not upset that you lied to 

1117
01:13:04,800 --> 01:13:07,480
me. 
I'm upset that from now on I 

1118
01:13:07,480 --> 01:13:10,680
can't believe you. 
Well ties into the to the other 

1119
01:13:10,680 --> 01:13:13,080
one with from Breaking Bad 
right? 

1120
01:13:13,080 --> 01:13:19,480
Like once you see some things 
and you understand that, you now

1121
01:13:19,480 --> 01:13:23,640
understand it differently. 
Basically, there's a lots of 

1122
01:13:23,640 --> 01:13:25,320
other things that you start 
questioning. 

1123
01:13:26,000 --> 01:13:31,440
Yeah, I mean, I look, I'm a I'm 
a huge fan of of nature and I 

1124
01:13:31,440 --> 01:13:40,440
think, I think there's so much, 
you know, we can learn, we can 

1125
01:13:40,440 --> 01:13:46,640
learn from him about the way the
world works and the way, you 

1126
01:13:46,640 --> 01:13:52,240
know how to live a good life. 
And I learned, you know, I 

1127
01:13:52,240 --> 01:13:54,760
learned a lot from from Bitcoin 
as well. 

1128
01:13:55,560 --> 01:14:02,880
And so like I would, I would 
love to see, you know, more of 

1129
01:14:02,880 --> 01:14:08,400
the Nietzscheans in in Bitcoin. 
I think it's a perfect fit. 

1130
01:14:08,600 --> 01:14:13,640
I mean, Bitcoin is ultimately 
for everybody I guess, but I 

1131
01:14:13,720 --> 01:14:19,040
think it makes perfect sense for
people that you know are 

1132
01:14:19,040 --> 01:14:24,080
attracted to the ideologies of 
both have have a lot of 

1133
01:14:24,080 --> 01:14:28,240
similarities I would say. 
Yeah, oh, I had another one. 

1134
01:14:28,240 --> 01:14:30,400
Oh, this was the Roman Empire 
one. 

1135
01:14:32,520 --> 01:14:36,800
It's a it's a picture of a of a 
Roman soldier or leader. 

1136
01:14:36,800 --> 01:14:41,280
And he says watching the Roman 
Empire collapse again, but with 

1137
01:14:41,280 --> 01:14:46,920
Wi-Fi and memes, it's actually 
happening, right? 

1138
01:14:47,200 --> 01:14:50,200
It's just, well, we saw the 
TikTok trends. 

1139
01:14:52,920 --> 01:14:54,520
Why? 
Like, what's your fault behind 

1140
01:14:54,520 --> 01:14:59,360
this one? 
Yeah, I mean, look, I think it 

1141
01:14:59,360 --> 01:15:03,280
speaks for itself, but it it 
it's, it's it's pretty funny and

1142
01:15:03,800 --> 01:15:09,440
I think, I think. 
Actually, I'd say right. 

1143
01:15:10,960 --> 01:15:19,560
It's it's almost absurd actually
but like it really is quite 

1144
01:15:20,240 --> 01:15:22,320
quite silly really when you 
think about it. 

1145
01:15:22,400 --> 01:15:27,160
But we because you sort of 
wonder we will never know. 

1146
01:15:27,160 --> 01:15:31,400
Well, it's not, it's not really 
clear whether like what did they

1147
01:15:31,520 --> 01:15:34,040
you know when that was happening
back then, did they, did they 

1148
01:15:34,040 --> 01:15:37,520
know about the collapse or I 
mean they they obviously knew 

1149
01:15:37,520 --> 01:15:41,360
when it was collapsing like or 
battle the inflation. 

1150
01:15:41,360 --> 01:15:42,880
For real. 
For real, Yeah. 

1151
01:15:42,880 --> 01:15:46,280
Well, they, they, they, they you
know, but. 

1152
01:15:49,600 --> 01:15:56,160
Yeah, it's what I think here is 
like everything you read about 

1153
01:15:56,160 --> 01:16:00,440
something in the past feels also
very distant, like that happened

1154
01:16:00,440 --> 01:16:04,040
to other people that were 
different than me, you know, 

1155
01:16:04,080 --> 01:16:09,080
it's just very far away and that
once you realize that, you could

1156
01:16:09,080 --> 01:16:15,760
be in the same situation, right?
Yeah. 

1157
01:16:15,760 --> 01:16:19,360
Then it's actually wild to think
that you are aware of that that 

1158
01:16:19,360 --> 01:16:22,800
you are in the situation as 
where you say the the people in 

1159
01:16:22,800 --> 01:16:26,640
that time probably most of them 
weren't aware that they were in 

1160
01:16:26,640 --> 01:16:28,760
the that situation. 
Yeah. 

1161
01:16:28,760 --> 01:16:32,480
And and I do think that it's not
like a perfect parallel by any 

1162
01:16:32,480 --> 01:16:41,440
stretch because we we we are 
just like everything happens so 

1163
01:16:41,440 --> 01:16:44,400
much faster now because of the 
technology. 

1164
01:16:44,520 --> 01:16:49,640
So we like where whereas it took
500 years for the Roman Empire 

1165
01:16:49,640 --> 01:16:55,600
collapse we we might see a sort 
of collapse and revolution and 

1166
01:16:55,640 --> 01:17:02,760
and ascent very quickly. 
You know it it it it it like 

1167
01:17:03,440 --> 01:17:11,160
it's it's all I'm I'm still you 
know in some ways in some ways 

1168
01:17:11,160 --> 01:17:13,720
you know I'm pessimistic when I 
when I realize when I think 

1169
01:17:13,720 --> 01:17:18,400
about the way the world is. 
But I also am you know 

1170
01:17:18,400 --> 01:17:22,520
fundamentally optimistic about 
about where is like I think that

1171
01:17:25,440 --> 01:17:29,560
you know like I want to be alive
in 50 years time because I think

1172
01:17:29,560 --> 01:17:30,920
that the world is going to be 
awesome. 

1173
01:17:30,920 --> 01:17:36,080
I do believe that even though 
like yeah we're we're witnessing

1174
01:17:36,080 --> 01:17:40,360
some sort of collapse today and 
I also believe that to be true 

1175
01:17:40,800 --> 01:17:52,120
but it's just we're in a very 
strange time in the with our 

1176
01:17:52,120 --> 01:17:59,640
like technology adoption and. 
Well human evolution image. 

1177
01:17:59,760 --> 01:18:04,640
Yeah in essence right. 
Like every every people every 

1178
01:18:04,640 --> 01:18:07,760
human is always at the tip of 
the spear of humanity right. 

1179
01:18:07,800 --> 01:18:10,320
You know every person that's 
ever lived it's been true for 

1180
01:18:10,360 --> 01:18:14,880
them. 
But yeah, the difference is, is 

1181
01:18:14,880 --> 01:18:23,240
that is that we, you know, like 
the technology that we have is, 

1182
01:18:23,240 --> 01:18:30,600
is could potentially like it it 
it's nonlinear, basically it's 

1183
01:18:30,600 --> 01:18:34,240
nonlinear. 
So that's why that's why there's

1184
01:18:34,240 --> 01:18:40,600
the potential for our living 
standards to like dramatically 

1185
01:18:40,600 --> 01:18:45,840
improve really quickly in a way 
that like wasn't really possible

1186
01:18:47,000 --> 01:18:51,640
in the past. 
If as long as we don't like, you

1187
01:18:51,640 --> 01:18:56,800
know, screw it up, which is also
possible, yeah, it's. 

1188
01:18:58,400 --> 01:19:02,400
It's it's lots of turmoil but 
turmoil but I agree with you 

1189
01:19:02,400 --> 01:19:08,440
like the the the futures should 
seem bright to you because we do

1190
01:19:08,440 --> 01:19:13,040
also have like lots of 
technological advances and it 

1191
01:19:13,040 --> 01:19:15,840
should be it should become 
better. 

1192
01:19:17,680 --> 01:19:22,120
Yeah I I love these memes I'm 
definitely will link to all your

1193
01:19:22,120 --> 01:19:24,200
Twitter people can follow you 
for more. 

1194
01:19:24,800 --> 01:19:27,280
I want to ask you last the last 
question that I. 

1195
01:19:27,840 --> 01:19:31,000
I ask everyone the same thing. 
What's that? 

1196
01:19:31,000 --> 01:19:33,520
What's a core belief that that 
you will never let go. 

1197
01:19:36,560 --> 01:19:40,680
Well look I I I think, I I think
I have to I'd have to say you 

1198
01:19:40,680 --> 01:19:46,800
know 21 million Bitcoin really 
because that's like that's 

1199
01:19:46,800 --> 01:19:48,520
that's that's the heart of it, 
right? 

1200
01:19:50,040 --> 01:19:52,480
That's there are some things we 
can we can talk about with 

1201
01:19:52,480 --> 01:19:55,000
Bitcoin, but that will never 
change. 

1202
01:19:56,800 --> 01:19:58,440
Awesome. 
Thanks for sharing. 

1203
01:19:58,440 --> 01:20:02,480
Thanks for this conversation. 
Where can people follow you 

1204
01:20:03,200 --> 01:20:05,600
online and where can they find 
your company? 

1205
01:20:06,000 --> 01:20:11,040
Yeah sure. 
So X account is is Thomas, under

1206
01:20:11,040 --> 01:20:13,680
score Farah, so Thomas. 
And then it's under score 

1207
01:20:13,680 --> 01:20:16,960
FAHRER. 
And then you know, you can, you 

1208
01:20:16,960 --> 01:20:19,840
can find, you know Apollo where 
heyapollo.com. 

1209
01:20:22,120 --> 01:20:24,920
Yeah, Google Apollo or 
heyapollo.com and you'll find 

1210
01:20:24,920 --> 01:20:29,400
you'll find that, yeah, you 
know, cool, write some reviews. 

1211
01:20:29,560 --> 01:20:32,080
Be cool to see. 
Get some Bitcoin. 

1212
01:20:32,920 --> 01:20:36,160
Yeah, I'll, I'll, I'll link to, 
I'll link to this in the in the 

1213
01:20:36,160 --> 01:20:37,960
show notes so people can find 
you easily. 

1214
01:20:38,560 --> 01:20:41,280
Thanks again for this 
conversation and let's stay in 

1215
01:20:41,280 --> 01:20:43,240
touch. 
It's been a pleasure. 

1216
01:20:43,240 --> 01:20:45,720
Yeah, looking forward to. 
It I hope you enjoyed this 

1217
01:20:45,720 --> 01:20:47,600
episode. 
If you did, it would be amazing 

1218
01:20:47,600 --> 01:20:50,400
if you could rate, review and 
subscribe on the podcast 

1219
01:20:50,400 --> 01:20:53,360
platform of your choice. 
It will help us educate more 

1220
01:20:53,360 --> 01:20:55,480
millennials on the importance of
Bitcoin. 

1221
01:20:55,720 --> 01:20:57,480
You can follow and connect with 
me on Twitter. 

1222
01:20:57,480 --> 01:21:00,120
I'm Bronke. 
That's at Bramk. 

1223
01:21:00,680 --> 01:21:02,840
And if you are or know someone 
who has an interesting 

1224
01:21:02,840 --> 01:21:05,280
perspective on Bitcoin that's 
worth sharing, hit me up. 

1225
01:21:05,640 --> 01:21:07,400
I read and reply to every single
message. 

1226
01:21:07,680 --> 01:21:10,160
I appreciate your support and 
hope you'll be here for the next

1227
01:21:10,160 --> 01:21:11,640
episode. 
Thanks for listening. 

1228
01:21:11,920 --> 01:21:12,160
Bye.