1 00:00:01,280 --> 00:00:03,440 All right, hey there, this is Pram Konstan and you're 2 00:00:03,440 --> 00:00:05,160 listening to Bitcoin for Millennials. 3 00:00:05,160 --> 00:00:07,640 If you enjoyed this podcast, please consider giving a thumbs 4 00:00:07,640 --> 00:00:11,320 up and subscribing on YouTube or your favorite podcasting app. 5 00:00:11,600 --> 00:00:13,880 This will help me reach a wider audience and educate more people 6 00:00:13,880 --> 00:00:15,800 on Bitcoin together with my guests. 7 00:00:15,840 --> 00:00:18,440 And in this episode, I'm joined by Sam Lyman. 8 00:00:18,760 --> 00:00:21,880 He's a public policy director at Ride Platforms, a leading 9 00:00:21,880 --> 00:00:24,600 Bitcoin mining company, and a contributor to Forbes. 10 00:00:24,880 --> 00:00:27,880 He previously served as the policy director of ADC based 11 00:00:27,880 --> 00:00:30,920 Think tank and as a speechwriter to the the President of the US 12 00:00:30,920 --> 00:00:33,160 Chamber of Commerce and AUS Senator. 13 00:00:33,520 --> 00:00:36,560 His graduate research at Princeton focused on the impact 14 00:00:36,560 --> 00:00:39,680 of emerging technologies on international relations. 15 00:00:39,960 --> 00:00:42,920 And Sam believes a decentralized future is essential to freedom 16 00:00:43,160 --> 00:00:45,760 and the human flourishing. So I'm excited to talk with him 17 00:00:45,760 --> 00:00:46,560 today. Welcome man. 18 00:00:47,600 --> 00:00:49,920 Yeah, Ron, great to be here. Thanks for having me on. 19 00:00:50,960 --> 00:00:56,320 Yeah, I think it's great timing with the announcements we saw at 20 00:00:56,560 --> 00:00:59,200 the at the Bitcoin conference in in Nashville. 21 00:00:59,840 --> 00:01:03,880 I think fun topic to talk about global game theory and Bitcoin 22 00:01:03,880 --> 00:01:07,480 as a reserve asset. But before we dive into that big 23 00:01:07,480 --> 00:01:10,120 topic, I'd love to hear your Bitcoin story. 24 00:01:10,120 --> 00:01:14,760 How did you get into Bitcoin? Yeah, I first heard of Bitcoin, 25 00:01:14,760 --> 00:01:17,400 I think it was 2013. I was watching an episode of 26 00:01:17,760 --> 00:01:20,640 Conan O'Brien's Late Night show where they were making Bitcoin 27 00:01:20,640 --> 00:01:24,120 jokes and it piqued my curiosity and I started doing some 28 00:01:24,120 --> 00:01:26,640 research and looked into what Bitcoin was. 29 00:01:26,640 --> 00:01:29,520 Didn't really grasp it at the time and I honestly didn't think 30 00:01:29,520 --> 00:01:32,600 much of it. It wasn't until later on, a few 31 00:01:32,600 --> 00:01:34,960 years later, I was working in the US Senate. 32 00:01:35,320 --> 00:01:38,120 I was working for Senator Hatch and this was the bull run of 33 00:01:38,120 --> 00:01:42,760 2017 when Bitcoin was touching $20,000, around that range. 34 00:01:42,760 --> 00:01:45,840 And I had a Co worker who came down sweating and nervous 35 00:01:46,160 --> 00:01:48,880 because he was thinking I bought Bitcoin, should I sell? 36 00:01:48,880 --> 00:01:51,320 And I said what's it at? He said $20,000. 37 00:01:51,320 --> 00:01:54,080 And I was shocked because, you know, last time I checked a year 38 00:01:54,080 --> 00:01:56,960 prior, Bitcoin was, you know, much lower than that. 39 00:01:56,960 --> 00:02:00,480 And so that piqued my curiosity even more. 40 00:02:00,520 --> 00:02:04,160 And when I started working at the US Chamber of Commerce, it 41 00:02:04,160 --> 00:02:06,400 was very, some of the policies we worked on there were 42 00:02:06,400 --> 00:02:09,880 cryptocurrency adjacent. And I started to get more and 43 00:02:09,880 --> 00:02:11,960 more interested in it. It wasn't really though, until 44 00:02:11,960 --> 00:02:15,280 2020-2021. I went down the Bitcoin rabbit 45 00:02:15,280 --> 00:02:19,640 hole during that bull run. And just once you go down that 46 00:02:19,640 --> 00:02:21,280 rabbit hole, you don't really emerge. 47 00:02:21,360 --> 00:02:25,760 And especially in the wake of COVID, there was such severe 48 00:02:25,760 --> 00:02:31,080 inflation that it really opened my eyes up to the need for some 49 00:02:31,080 --> 00:02:35,040 kind of currency or some kind of hedge against Fiat currency. 50 00:02:35,320 --> 00:02:39,720 Fiat currency, as history shows, is unsustainable over time. 51 00:02:40,080 --> 00:02:43,280 And I could foresee a future where we once again peg our 52 00:02:43,280 --> 00:02:47,120 currency to something of lasting value, whether it be gold or 53 00:02:47,120 --> 00:02:48,920 Bitcoin or basket of commodities. 54 00:02:49,280 --> 00:02:52,200 So I started to do a lot of research into Bitcoin and 55 00:02:52,200 --> 00:02:55,280 cryptocurrency, coincidentally, when I was at grad school at 56 00:02:55,280 --> 00:02:57,480 Princeton. And a lot of my research there 57 00:02:57,480 --> 00:02:59,920 focused on cryptocurrency policy. 58 00:03:00,800 --> 00:03:03,800 It's sort of a niche in the policy market that was just 59 00:03:03,800 --> 00:03:07,520 waiting to be filled. And so a lot of my papers at 60 00:03:07,520 --> 00:03:11,440 grad school focused on how can we leverage digital assets like 61 00:03:11,440 --> 00:03:16,840 Bitcoin, stable coins and other digital assets as instruments of 62 00:03:16,840 --> 00:03:20,360 economic statecraft. And a lot of the research I did 63 00:03:20,800 --> 00:03:25,040 I then repurposed into op eds and in leading publications like 64 00:03:25,120 --> 00:03:28,360 Fortune and Forbes later got the invite from Forbes to be a 65 00:03:28,360 --> 00:03:31,440 digital assets contributor. And that's when I got on riots 66 00:03:31,440 --> 00:03:35,160 radar and began working full time in the industry a while 67 00:03:35,160 --> 00:03:36,920 ago. And it's been a blast. 68 00:03:36,920 --> 00:03:40,680 I mean, it's amazing to turn a hobby into a full time job and 69 00:03:41,080 --> 00:03:44,800 to educate and evangelize lawmakers on Bitcoin is honestly 70 00:03:44,800 --> 00:03:48,840 a dream come true in many ways. I mean, this is such a truly 71 00:03:48,880 --> 00:03:52,000 world changing technology and I think it shifts people's 72 00:03:52,000 --> 00:03:54,560 paradigm on what money is and what it should be and what it 73 00:03:54,560 --> 00:03:57,240 can be. And yeah, that's more or less my 74 00:03:57,240 --> 00:03:59,240 journey into Bitcoin. Here I am today. 75 00:04:00,280 --> 00:04:04,040 Love that man. I love in, in general, I've, 76 00:04:04,360 --> 00:04:07,040 I've spoken to a lot of people now and a lot, a lot of people 77 00:04:07,080 --> 00:04:11,120 had the same experience as you. Whereas they, they had a touch 78 00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:16,200 point with Bitcoin at, you know, price XYZ, and then they didn't 79 00:04:16,200 --> 00:04:18,519 really think much of it. And then later they had another 80 00:04:18,519 --> 00:04:22,200 touch point and then they realized that A, it was still 81 00:04:22,200 --> 00:04:27,080 there and B, it was up tenfold or twentyfold, you know, and 82 00:04:27,320 --> 00:04:29,960 that piqued a lot of curiosity in people. 83 00:04:30,280 --> 00:04:32,720 And I, I think it's so interesting to hear you have a, 84 00:04:32,720 --> 00:04:38,160 a similar, similar story there. Can you remember when you found 85 00:04:38,160 --> 00:04:42,080 it and you kind of dismissed it? Was there any belief that made 86 00:04:42,080 --> 00:04:47,520 you like not get into it or was it just like some short touch 87 00:04:47,520 --> 00:04:49,560 point or like how did how did that go? 88 00:04:50,360 --> 00:04:55,960 Yeah, when I first discovered it was during an episode of Conan 89 00:04:55,960 --> 00:04:59,080 O'Brien's late night show, where it was the butt of the joke, it 90 00:04:59,080 --> 00:05:02,560 was the punchline, right? And so at that time I figured, 91 00:05:02,600 --> 00:05:04,960 oh, well, if they're joking about this on a late night TV 92 00:05:04,960 --> 00:05:07,200 show, then this must not be real. 93 00:05:07,200 --> 00:05:10,720 But interestingly, it was after the late night TV show where it 94 00:05:10,720 --> 00:05:13,520 was the punchline that I started to look into it and realize, no, 95 00:05:13,520 --> 00:05:15,280 there's some real technology here. 96 00:05:15,760 --> 00:05:18,760 And I didn't have the wherewithal, the time to go 97 00:05:18,760 --> 00:05:21,520 deeper. You know, I was a poor college 98 00:05:21,520 --> 00:05:25,160 student and I figured, oh, well, I probably don't have enough 99 00:05:25,160 --> 00:05:27,240 money to buy anyways, as everybody does. 100 00:05:27,240 --> 00:05:30,560 I, I deeply regret that. But I think I could sense even 101 00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:33,920 from an early stage that this was technology that was real. 102 00:05:33,920 --> 00:05:37,320 And even though I couldn't grasp it at the time, I noticed that 103 00:05:37,320 --> 00:05:40,680 there was a lot of, as Donald Trump would say, high IQ people 104 00:05:40,840 --> 00:05:45,560 who are into Bitcoin. And so I deferred to them and I, 105 00:05:45,680 --> 00:05:48,600 I think it wasn't really accessible to the casual retail 106 00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:51,600 investor until the coin bases of the world came along. 107 00:05:51,600 --> 00:05:54,960 And I think that made it a lot easier to of course, acquire 108 00:05:54,960 --> 00:05:59,200 Bitcoin, but also mainstreamed it in a way that you have a lot 109 00:05:59,200 --> 00:06:02,960 of Bitcoin educators who are starting to rise to the surface. 110 00:06:03,280 --> 00:06:08,320 People like Safety and Amis Pierre Rashard, a lot of people 111 00:06:08,320 --> 00:06:10,720 in the Bitcoin space were just really good at explaining what 112 00:06:10,720 --> 00:06:13,480 Bitcoin is. That's when I first started to 113 00:06:13,480 --> 00:06:16,480 really understand what is the technology behind this. 114 00:06:17,440 --> 00:06:20,600 Bitcoin itself is an education in so many different fields, 115 00:06:20,600 --> 00:06:25,120 politics, economics, social psychology, international 116 00:06:25,120 --> 00:06:29,040 relations, that once you get a small taste of Bitcoin, it's an 117 00:06:29,040 --> 00:06:33,200 incredible education across so many different fields of 118 00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:36,440 knowledge that it's hard. It's hard to look away after 119 00:06:36,440 --> 00:06:39,200 that. So I'd say yeah, 2013 during 120 00:06:39,200 --> 00:06:42,160 that episode of Conan O'Brien show, that's when I first heard 121 00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:45,720 of it and dismissed it. 2017 is when I really started to take it 122 00:06:45,720 --> 00:06:48,600 more seriously, when I had a Co worker who bought some and you 123 00:06:48,600 --> 00:06:49,840 know, I was at the peak of the bull market. 124 00:06:49,840 --> 00:06:53,320 And I'd say I didn't really start to take it seriously and 125 00:06:53,320 --> 00:06:56,760 recognize its utility as an instrument of economic 126 00:06:56,760 --> 00:07:00,160 statecraft until probably 2020 or 2021. 127 00:07:00,840 --> 00:07:05,080 Yeah, so how deep does the rabbit hole go in your case? 128 00:07:06,520 --> 00:07:09,040 Yeah. I mean, in my case, I don't know 129 00:07:09,040 --> 00:07:10,600 if there's any bottom to the rabbit hole. 130 00:07:10,600 --> 00:07:12,560 I think it just keeps going further and further. 131 00:07:12,560 --> 00:07:15,320 And the longer you spend in the field there, you the more you 132 00:07:15,320 --> 00:07:19,320 realize that The Who knows where the rabbit hole ends. 133 00:07:19,560 --> 00:07:22,160 I mean, even the greatest experts in Bitcoin seem to 134 00:07:22,480 --> 00:07:27,240 discover more and more about it. And yeah, yeah, it just keeps 135 00:07:27,240 --> 00:07:30,320 going in my opinion. Yeah, I have a similar 136 00:07:30,320 --> 00:07:32,440 experience. I think more maybe my question 137 00:07:32,440 --> 00:07:36,320 was what what's the biggest insights that you discovered in 138 00:07:36,360 --> 00:07:38,880 in that rabbit hole that that that like shook your world a 139 00:07:38,880 --> 00:07:46,680 bit? Yeah, I think someone once told 140 00:07:46,680 --> 00:07:49,800 me that if you don't understand Bitcoin, you don't understand 141 00:07:49,800 --> 00:07:52,520 money, and I think that's fundamentally true. 142 00:07:52,600 --> 00:07:57,640 I think a lot of people dismiss it because Fiat currency is the 143 00:07:57,640 --> 00:08:00,240 water that they've been swimming in their whole lives. 144 00:08:00,240 --> 00:08:01,760 There's this story that I really like. 145 00:08:03,800 --> 00:08:06,440 It's sort of a parable where there's two fish that are 146 00:08:06,440 --> 00:08:09,520 swimming in the ocean and they pass a much older fish. 147 00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:13,000 And the older fish says to the two fish, how's the water boys? 148 00:08:13,600 --> 00:08:18,280 And the two younger fish swim away and they say it's good, but 149 00:08:18,280 --> 00:08:20,520 then they swim away and they ask what the heck is water? 150 00:08:21,920 --> 00:08:25,520 So the whole metaphor being that the fish, even though water is 151 00:08:25,520 --> 00:08:27,640 what they've been swimming and living in their whole lives, 152 00:08:28,240 --> 00:08:29,960 they still don't really know what water is. 153 00:08:29,960 --> 00:08:31,760 They can't grasp it. They're too close to it. 154 00:08:32,039 --> 00:08:34,960 I think there's a good metaphor there for Fiat currency and the 155 00:08:34,960 --> 00:08:38,880 US dollar system, because people take for granted that, you know, 156 00:08:38,960 --> 00:08:42,640 we have the US dollar or whatever Fiat currency you use 157 00:08:42,640 --> 00:08:44,240 depending on what country you live in. 158 00:08:44,240 --> 00:08:47,600 And people just accept that that is money and they don't consider 159 00:08:47,600 --> 00:08:51,800 that there are superior forms of money out there, Bitcoin, in my 160 00:08:51,800 --> 00:08:53,400 opinion, being foremost among them. 161 00:08:53,760 --> 00:08:56,320 Obviously Bitcoin needs to scale and there's still some obstacles 162 00:08:56,600 --> 00:09:00,040 before it can become a medium of exchange unit of account and 163 00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:03,480 store value and all those properties that make money what 164 00:09:03,480 --> 00:09:05,960 it is today. But I, I think that's the 165 00:09:05,960 --> 00:09:08,920 biggest revelation to me is that once you understand what Bitcoin 166 00:09:08,920 --> 00:09:12,440 is, you can't look at money itself in the same way ever 167 00:09:12,440 --> 00:09:15,240 again. And money underpins everything 168 00:09:15,240 --> 00:09:17,840 we do in our society, from politics to economics to 169 00:09:17,840 --> 00:09:20,400 business. And once you realize that the 170 00:09:20,400 --> 00:09:23,440 money we're using is potentially flawed, it kind of shifts your 171 00:09:23,440 --> 00:09:25,640 whole view of society. And that's why I think 172 00:09:26,040 --> 00:09:29,960 Bitcoiners might have a tinfoil hat reputation sometimes, but it 173 00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:33,240 really is because they've gone to the other side and they can 174 00:09:33,240 --> 00:09:37,000 now see on the horizon a better world that can potentially be 175 00:09:37,000 --> 00:09:42,360 made by embracing a currency that is scarce, that is finite, 176 00:09:42,360 --> 00:09:46,240 that appreciates in value over time as opposed to depreciates 177 00:09:46,240 --> 00:09:49,400 like our Fiat currency, which has the tendency to inflate over 178 00:09:49,400 --> 00:09:51,760 time. Does your Bitcoin custody setup 179 00:09:51,760 --> 00:09:54,720 keep you up at night? 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I love what Zach and the team at 207 00:11:21,280 --> 00:11:23,840 Foundation are building and to learn more about their mission, 208 00:11:23,840 --> 00:11:26,880 please check out episode 27 of this podcast. 209 00:11:27,040 --> 00:11:29,680 If you consider buying a Foundation Passport, you can use 210 00:11:29,680 --> 00:11:35,960 code Brom that's Bram to get $10 off at Foundation dot XYZ slash 211 00:11:36,120 --> 00:11:39,720 Brom. Yeah, yeah, I think I agree. 212 00:11:39,720 --> 00:11:43,600 I think it was the same for me. And also even on my podcast, I I 213 00:11:43,600 --> 00:11:47,720 talk to people that are like master, they have masters in 214 00:11:47,720 --> 00:11:50,920 economics, right? And and they told me I never 215 00:11:50,920 --> 00:11:55,320 learned what money is. And I think once you realize 216 00:11:55,680 --> 00:12:00,040 that even those people don't learn and you are participating 217 00:12:00,040 --> 00:12:02,440 in a system, right? You're swimming in in the water, 218 00:12:02,440 --> 00:12:05,840 as you said, and you have no, no clue how it works. 219 00:12:05,840 --> 00:12:10,680 You know, once you realize how it works, then you have like 220 00:12:10,680 --> 00:12:13,480 this pivotal kind of like decision point, right? 221 00:12:13,480 --> 00:12:18,840 Like, do I go with this new information and new truth, 222 00:12:19,160 --> 00:12:24,800 right, or observation, or do I stay in, you know, this old 223 00:12:24,800 --> 00:12:27,600 paradigm that I don't understand, but it's, it's 224 00:12:27,600 --> 00:12:29,920 easier, right? I think for many people that has 225 00:12:29,920 --> 00:12:32,880 been like the kick down the rabbit hole because as you said, 226 00:12:32,880 --> 00:12:36,640 like everything eventually, you know, is downstream from, from 227 00:12:36,640 --> 00:12:38,520 the money. I, I say that all the time. 228 00:12:38,520 --> 00:12:41,960 Like if you identify as a progressive person and you want 229 00:12:41,960 --> 00:12:44,760 to fix everything in the world, then you have to realize that 230 00:12:44,760 --> 00:12:49,000 everything that you would ever want to fix is broken because 231 00:12:49,000 --> 00:12:51,280 the money is broken. Because it it, it breaks 232 00:12:51,280 --> 00:12:54,880 incentives and makes people do things that are perhaps not in 233 00:12:54,880 --> 00:12:57,200 their own best interest or in the interest of the people that 234 00:12:57,200 --> 00:12:59,680 they want to serve. And I think at least for me, 235 00:12:59,680 --> 00:13:03,320 that was one of the biggest, like hard hitting things to 236 00:13:03,320 --> 00:13:04,680 realize right? Like that? 237 00:13:04,880 --> 00:13:09,080 No, not everyone has the right incentives to do the right 238 00:13:09,080 --> 00:13:11,600 things, although we all talk about it. 239 00:13:12,520 --> 00:13:14,920 Yeah, Ron, that that's so well put in. 240 00:13:15,240 --> 00:13:17,600 Everything you just described reminded me of the scene from 241 00:13:17,600 --> 00:13:22,800 The Matrix when Neo is offered the the red pill or the blue 242 00:13:22,800 --> 00:13:25,560 pill, right? And the blue pill is Fiat 243 00:13:25,560 --> 00:13:29,360 currency, Fiat world. You know, take the blue pill and 244 00:13:29,360 --> 00:13:31,560 you can stay in sort of this fantasy land that you've been 245 00:13:31,560 --> 00:13:35,160 living in where slowly over time, your savings erode, 246 00:13:35,160 --> 00:13:38,760 everything gets more expensive, but you just accept reality as 247 00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:40,000 it is. But then, of course, there's 248 00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:41,920 also the red pillars. Look, we like to say in the 249 00:13:41,920 --> 00:13:43,560 Bitcoin community, the orange pill. 250 00:13:43,840 --> 00:13:46,080 And once you take that, you really do see how deep the 251 00:13:46,080 --> 00:13:49,960 rabbit hole goes. Yeah, I also always, I, I love 252 00:13:49,960 --> 00:13:51,600 the matrix in this example, right? 253 00:13:51,600 --> 00:13:55,040 I also think about the guy who double crosses them, right, who 254 00:13:55,040 --> 00:13:57,840 was like, I like the steak, I want to keep eating the steak, 255 00:13:57,840 --> 00:13:58,640 he says. Right. 256 00:13:58,920 --> 00:14:01,720 And I think that's the person who realizes there's another 257 00:14:01,720 --> 00:14:07,560 paradigm, but they are, I don't want to say strong enough, but 258 00:14:07,560 --> 00:14:11,880 they, they are too comfortable in the old paradigm basically. 259 00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:14,520 And they, they want to eat the steak, although they, although 260 00:14:14,520 --> 00:14:17,120 they know that the steak is not real and their mind is playing 261 00:14:17,120 --> 00:14:20,760 tricks on them, right? I think this is kind of like the 262 00:14:20,760 --> 00:14:23,760 biggest mental hurdle that people need to get over. 263 00:14:23,760 --> 00:14:27,160 Is that actually like yesterday or day before yesterday? 264 00:14:27,160 --> 00:14:30,040 I saw a tweet where it said the dollar lost. 265 00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:34,480 I think it was 20% or even 25% of its purchasing power in the 266 00:14:34,480 --> 00:14:41,040 last four years. Wild, you know, but not that 267 00:14:41,040 --> 00:14:47,640 many people wake up to that, you know, like I find it crazy. 268 00:14:47,680 --> 00:14:53,640 I think in, in euro in the euro area or in my country it it's 269 00:14:53,640 --> 00:14:56,400 also about like 18% or something. 270 00:14:57,560 --> 00:15:02,240 Yeah, it it's just crazy. But there's there's no one 271 00:15:02,240 --> 00:15:04,440 industry protesting against the money, right? 272 00:15:04,440 --> 00:15:07,160 Like it's sometimes, at least for me, it feels like, are we 273 00:15:07,160 --> 00:15:10,680 the only people trying to do something about this? 274 00:15:10,680 --> 00:15:13,640 Or like how how do you see that? You know, like, so not talking 275 00:15:13,640 --> 00:15:17,120 like actually moving, moving to a new new system. 276 00:15:18,200 --> 00:15:23,600 Yeah, I think now is prime time to orange peel people because of 277 00:15:23,600 --> 00:15:25,800 those conditions that you described. 278 00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:29,080 People are feeling the pinch every time Do they go to the 279 00:15:29,080 --> 00:15:32,320 grocery store, every time they pay their rent, every time they 280 00:15:32,320 --> 00:15:35,480 fill up their car with gas? People are definitely 281 00:15:35,480 --> 00:15:38,680 recognizing that inflation is much worse than it's ever been 282 00:15:38,680 --> 00:15:41,400 in their lifetimes. And I think more people are 283 00:15:41,400 --> 00:15:45,280 asking questions as to why they're waking up to the effects 284 00:15:45,280 --> 00:15:48,880 of the Federal Reserve's monetary policy and Congress's 285 00:15:48,880 --> 00:15:51,920 reckless spending, recognizing that this is having a really 286 00:15:51,920 --> 00:15:55,320 tangible effect on their lives. That effectively the government 287 00:15:55,320 --> 00:15:59,080 is exacting a stealth tax in the form of inflation that they 288 00:15:59,080 --> 00:16:03,200 didn't sign off on. And that I believe, gives them 289 00:16:03,200 --> 00:16:06,440 an opportunity to consider alternatives, Bitcoin being the 290 00:16:06,440 --> 00:16:10,200 foremost among them. Just to pull out a different 291 00:16:10,200 --> 00:16:14,040 statistic, you know, over the last 10 years, the US dollar has 292 00:16:14,040 --> 00:16:18,200 depreciated in terms of purchasing value by about 30%, 293 00:16:18,200 --> 00:16:23,120 whereas Bitcoin has appreciated in value by 5000%. 294 00:16:23,680 --> 00:16:27,080 And so when you put things in context for people who are 295 00:16:27,320 --> 00:16:30,440 worried about their savings, they start to catch on to this 296 00:16:30,440 --> 00:16:34,600 narrative that Bitcoin isn't some wild eyed financial 297 00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:38,120 experiment, but potentially the most effective savings 298 00:16:38,120 --> 00:16:40,000 instrument that we have on the market today. 299 00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:44,320 And so it seems like there is a correlation between inflation 300 00:16:44,320 --> 00:16:47,040 and people becoming more and more open to Bitcoin. 301 00:16:47,040 --> 00:16:49,000 And that gives me hope, honestly. 302 00:16:49,520 --> 00:16:52,920 And I think it also keeps the US government in check or will over 303 00:16:52,920 --> 00:16:56,200 time. Effectively, Bitcoin can serve 304 00:16:56,240 --> 00:17:01,160 as a check on reckless money printing from central banks 305 00:17:01,160 --> 00:17:05,920 because people can opt into Bitcoin if they feel like their 306 00:17:05,920 --> 00:17:08,319 savings aren't secure in their own currency in their own 307 00:17:08,319 --> 00:17:11,760 savings accounts. Yeah, yeah, 100% agree. 308 00:17:11,760 --> 00:17:16,160 I, I always thought maybe we'll get there eventually, but I, I, 309 00:17:16,280 --> 00:17:22,800 I was a pretty fierce proponent of, you know, the legal tender 310 00:17:22,800 --> 00:17:25,839 it has has to become the money hyperbid canonization, all all 311 00:17:25,839 --> 00:17:28,240 these things, right? I I think eventually we will get 312 00:17:28,240 --> 00:17:32,320 there, but the face in between is more like this is a 313 00:17:32,320 --> 00:17:35,840 competitor to the Fiat money. And exactly as you said, because 314 00:17:35,840 --> 00:17:40,480 that exists and because people can move, it will keep or at 315 00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:44,680 least attempt to keep, you know, the Fiat money in check because 316 00:17:44,680 --> 00:17:50,560 there is a competitor that's completely, you know, 180° 317 00:17:50,560 --> 00:17:53,680 different than, you know, the Fiat the Fiat money. 318 00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:58,320 And so I think it kind of serves as like checks and balances type 319 00:17:58,560 --> 00:18:02,640 type thing. You know, it could be the, I 320 00:18:02,640 --> 00:18:05,320 don't know, kind of like there's a new measuring stick in town, 321 00:18:05,360 --> 00:18:09,080 you know, and if you measure in that measuring stick, then you 322 00:18:09,080 --> 00:18:13,680 can buy way more with the units of Bitcoin that you have versus 323 00:18:13,680 --> 00:18:16,360 the units of dollars or, you know, any other Fiat money that 324 00:18:16,360 --> 00:18:19,240 you have. So I went from that part of 325 00:18:19,240 --> 00:18:23,160 maximalism more towards what you just mentioned and I think that 326 00:18:23,160 --> 00:18:26,360 will be great. But I've but also, and that's 327 00:18:26,360 --> 00:18:29,000 one of the things I want to talk with you about as well, like the 328 00:18:29,800 --> 00:18:34,520 that, that, that freedom of choosing the money or increasing 329 00:18:34,520 --> 00:18:38,560 the competition of money. That is of course not a smart 330 00:18:38,560 --> 00:18:41,760 decision by the people in charge of the old money, right? 331 00:18:41,760 --> 00:18:45,200 So do you think they would ever allow that? 332 00:18:45,360 --> 00:18:50,800 Or is manifesting Bitcoin a more rebellious thing? 333 00:18:52,440 --> 00:18:54,040 It depends on the country I think. 334 00:18:54,480 --> 00:18:59,000 I would also say it might not be a question of whether countries 335 00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:02,160 allow it, it might be a question of whether they recognize that 336 00:19:02,160 --> 00:19:04,640 it could be the only thing that can save them from 337 00:19:04,640 --> 00:19:08,000 hyperinflation. So over the weekend, we had a 338 00:19:08,600 --> 00:19:11,400 history making speech from President Donald Trump where he 339 00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:14,400 announced Bitcoin as a strategic reserve asset. 340 00:19:14,400 --> 00:19:18,560 And he very wisely pointed out that Bitcoin itself is not a 341 00:19:18,560 --> 00:19:22,560 threat to the dollar. the US government's feckless and 342 00:19:22,560 --> 00:19:25,280 reckless money spending. That's the true threat to the 343 00:19:25,280 --> 00:19:27,040 value of the US dollar over time. 344 00:19:27,480 --> 00:19:31,120 And so by announcing a strategic reserve asset, I think that 345 00:19:31,120 --> 00:19:34,640 indirectly strengthens the dollar actually in a number of 346 00:19:34,640 --> 00:19:37,480 ways. Number one, it gives people 347 00:19:37,480 --> 00:19:39,320 confidence. Let's project this experiment 348 00:19:39,320 --> 00:19:43,080 out 10 years from now. And let's suppose that Bitcoin 349 00:19:43,080 --> 00:19:46,240 over the next decade achieves parity with gold, which if that 350 00:19:46,240 --> 00:19:48,640 were to happen today, I think it put each Bitcoin at around 351 00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:52,120 $700,000. You know, who knows how how much 352 00:19:52,120 --> 00:19:55,360 that would be a decade from now? Let's just say $1,000,000. 353 00:19:55,360 --> 00:19:58,760 I feel like that's a pretty conservative estimate of where 354 00:19:58,760 --> 00:20:01,560 Bitcoin could be a decade from now if the thesis plays out. 355 00:20:02,080 --> 00:20:06,360 Well, if the United States acquired 5% of the world's 356 00:20:06,360 --> 00:20:10,360 Bitcoin supply, as Senator Cynthia Lummis aims to do with 357 00:20:10,360 --> 00:20:13,880 her new bill, that would essentially build a Fort 358 00:20:13,880 --> 00:20:17,760 Nakamoto, a Bitcoin reserve for the United States. 359 00:20:18,080 --> 00:20:20,720 Well, that definitely strengthens the dollar because 360 00:20:20,720 --> 00:20:23,520 it gives people the confidence that in the event of 361 00:20:23,520 --> 00:20:27,000 hyperinflation, there is a hard asset that the United States 362 00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:30,240 government has to fall back on if it ever needs to, to peg its 363 00:20:30,240 --> 00:20:33,920 currency to a tangible asset in the future. 364 00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:36,840 And I also think that Bitcoin plays this really interesting 365 00:20:36,840 --> 00:20:41,560 role where if the dollar were ever to be pegged to something 366 00:20:41,840 --> 00:20:45,640 real in the future, as it was under the gold standard, Bitcoin 367 00:20:45,640 --> 00:20:47,480 could potentially save the US dollar. 368 00:20:47,960 --> 00:20:52,000 And maybe this is a pie in the sky scenario, but with the rate 369 00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:54,440 of inflation as it is today, I don't think it is. 370 00:20:54,760 --> 00:20:57,800 You have a number of really prominent policy makers from RFK 371 00:20:57,800 --> 00:21:01,440 Junior to Vivek Ramaswamy, who's actually advising Trump on 372 00:21:01,440 --> 00:21:05,600 Bitcoin and digital assets. Both of those policy makers have 373 00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:09,560 come out and proposed this idea of backing the dollar with a 374 00:21:09,560 --> 00:21:12,280 basket of commodities that could include Bitcoin. 375 00:21:12,640 --> 00:21:16,800 So it reminds me of those stages of a revolution. 376 00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:21,240 You know, first they laugh at you, then they fight you, and 377 00:21:21,240 --> 00:21:23,800 then you win. I think we actually might be 378 00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:27,720 moving from the fight stage to the winning stage. 379 00:21:27,720 --> 00:21:30,120 I don't want to count my eggs before they hatch. 380 00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:33,960 But I think more and more government is waking up to the 381 00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:37,320 fact that their own spending is unsustainable. 382 00:21:37,320 --> 00:21:40,320 Their Fiat currency has a shelf life. 383 00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:44,200 And if it's not backed by something scarce and finite like 384 00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:47,400 Bitcoin in the future or a basket of commodities to go 385 00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:50,320 along with it, their Fiat currency will go the way of the 386 00:21:50,320 --> 00:21:51,720 dinosaurs. So I actually think that that 387 00:21:51,720 --> 00:21:55,120 question itself is evolving from, you know, will governments 388 00:21:55,120 --> 00:21:58,120 try to ban it to will governments recognize the way 389 00:21:58,120 --> 00:22:01,600 that this could actually benefit them and help save their own 390 00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:04,880 currencies? Yeah, Well, this of this is of 391 00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:07,960 course part of the the intricacies of the game theory, 392 00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:09,480 right? Like the game theory has 393 00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:13,080 multiple dimensions. I think this is one of them, you 394 00:22:13,080 --> 00:22:16,440 know, right. Like if you if you go through it 395 00:22:16,440 --> 00:22:19,600 in a in a sequential way, it's kind of like, OK, this thing 396 00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:23,360 exists, it's decentralized, so it's not going anywhere. 397 00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:25,160 Do we want to shut off the Internet? 398 00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:28,560 No, probably not. Do we want to do a 51% attack 399 00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:29,760 that costs us? I don't know. 400 00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:32,840 I once saw this calculation, right. 10 billion for 10 minutes 401 00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:35,440 or something like that. You know, probably not. 402 00:22:35,440 --> 00:22:40,240 OK. So in what way is it a threat to 403 00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:42,640 us? Well, you know, I think we just 404 00:22:42,640 --> 00:22:46,640 mentioned it before because it's so ultimately transparent and 405 00:22:46,640 --> 00:22:49,680 Fiat money is not it's, it's a great competitor. 406 00:22:49,920 --> 00:22:52,560 So do you ignore it? Do you accept it, allow it? 407 00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:55,200 Whatever I'd like. I I think it's these little, 408 00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:58,320 little steps. What I like is the thought that, 409 00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:02,280 you know, it's, it's better adopting it than fighting it. 410 00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:06,760 And that's kind of the main thing I'm I'm, I'm looking at, 411 00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:09,840 you know, in terms of are we winning or, you know, what is 412 00:23:09,840 --> 00:23:12,120 the, what is the shift that is taking place? 413 00:23:12,440 --> 00:23:15,640 I think we went from Elizabeth Warren is building an anti 414 00:23:15,640 --> 00:23:19,720 crypto army, you know, and what did she tweet last week? 415 00:23:19,720 --> 00:23:23,160 Like Chinese or foreign miners are interfering with something. 416 00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:26,960 So I don't know, just some, you know, it's such a big tell when 417 00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:30,000 they talk in terms of fear, right? 418 00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:34,960 Because the other side of it, the positivity side of it is way 419 00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:37,640 more way, way, way more interesting as you mentioned, 420 00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:39,880 right? Like it could help solve an 421 00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:44,040 unpayable amount of debt. It could resolve that spiral of 422 00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:47,440 all these things. And so I'm kind of looking at 423 00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:52,240 how is the I don't want to say that what's the five shift right 424 00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:57,520 from anti to to pro and and then in in whatever way, right? 425 00:23:57,520 --> 00:24:00,800 Because I think we, there's so many things that we'll talk 426 00:24:00,800 --> 00:24:03,240 about that, but there's so many things we would love to see that 427 00:24:03,520 --> 00:24:09,600 obviously we're not announced by by Trump or RFK or even Cynthia 428 00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:14,400 Lamas, US Senator who announced a bill to make it all happen or 429 00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:17,280 already right. It's more a signal. 430 00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:22,080 It's more a signal of going from, you know, anti to to pro, 431 00:24:22,360 --> 00:24:26,600 whatever the appliances are right now. 432 00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:29,280 I don't know if that really matters, but yeah. 433 00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:33,160 What are your thoughts on that? Yeah, I think you hit the nail 434 00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:35,280 on the head when you described a vibe shift. 435 00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:39,080 Having been in the world of crypto policy over the last 436 00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:42,440 year, I've definitely noticed a shift of tone, both from 437 00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:47,120 Republicans and Democrats alike. So we talk often of Bitcoin game 438 00:24:47,120 --> 00:24:49,400 theory and how that will play out among nation states. 439 00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:52,920 Well, it's also playing out in really intriguing ways among 440 00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:55,240 politicians. I think we're seeing that in the 441 00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:58,680 presidential race right now. We all know that Donald Trump 442 00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:02,640 was very much against Bitcoin before he was for it, and he did 443 00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:06,680 a simple political calculation. He recognized that the political 444 00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:10,960 upside of embracing Bitcoin is enormous and the political 445 00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:18,000 downside of rejecting Bitcoin is also something to consider. 446 00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:20,960 So he recognized that this was an investment he could make as a 447 00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:24,680 political entrepreneur that had almost infinite upside and very 448 00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:28,040 little downside. Whereas if someone is against 449 00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:32,200 Bitcoin, there's there's no hardly any upside to that 450 00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:33,640 whatsoever. If anything, there's more 451 00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:37,960 downside because as we know today, crypto super PAC's or 452 00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:40,760 political action committees are actually fair. 453 00:25:40,760 --> 00:25:43,440 Shake is foremost among them, and it's the largest super PAC 454 00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:46,680 in the country right now. So I don't know what Democratic 455 00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:50,080 strategist thought it was a good idea for Elizabeth Warren to 456 00:25:50,360 --> 00:25:54,880 make an enemy of a new financial system without considering that 457 00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:56,560 there's a lot of money behind that. 458 00:25:57,000 --> 00:25:59,600 But that person should not be able to keep their job because 459 00:25:59,960 --> 00:26:02,360 they've really put the Democrats in a tough bind. 460 00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:04,840 And you're seeing that game theory among political 461 00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:07,800 individuals play out in real time where Donald Trump has 462 00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:11,560 embraced Bitcoin and now Kamala Harris is trying to pivot. 463 00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:14,600 Obviously, we know that the Biden administration has been 464 00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:18,120 the most hostile administration towards Bitcoin and digital 465 00:26:18,120 --> 00:26:20,200 asset companies in American history. 466 00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:25,360 And so to pivot now is a little rich and I think comes off as 467 00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:27,560 inauthentic and disingenuous in my opinion. 468 00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:30,840 But Even so, there has been outreach from the Kamala Harris 469 00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:37,760 campaign as a way to tamp down on some of the efforts by crypto 470 00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:41,160 political organizations to fight against them politically. 471 00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:45,160 And so politicians themselves are recognizing that there's no 472 00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:48,120 benefit to being against Bitcoin and digital assets. 473 00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:51,640 And so I, for that reason alone, I think the future of Bitcoin 474 00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:56,440 actually is bipartisan because it's something that is of 475 00:26:56,440 --> 00:26:58,320 benefit to people on both sides of the aisle. 476 00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:01,200 Not to mention from philosophical terms, I, I have, 477 00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:03,840 you know, many progressive friends and I tell them often, 478 00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:06,640 you know, as a progressive, you have every reason to be for 479 00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:09,760 Bitcoin. It is the democratic money that 480 00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:12,440 is available to all people, regardless of color, class or 481 00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:14,880 creed. You know, if I were a 482 00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:18,800 progressive myself, I couldn't dream up a better currency in a 483 00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:21,200 lab. It's perfect, and it has appeals 484 00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:22,760 to people on both sides of the aisle. 485 00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:26,040 And I think it's just a matter of time before politicians wake 486 00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:30,200 up to that. Yeah, I couldn't agree more. 487 00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:33,120 I think in general it's really interesting. 488 00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:36,960 Maybe it's also a bit different, I think in Europe, right, But 489 00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:41,800 you use the word progressives for more like the leftist side, 490 00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:45,040 right, in America. And when I hear the word 491 00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:49,240 progressives, I think like those are forward thinking people, 492 00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:51,960 right? You should embrace new 493 00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:56,000 technology or at least look into it or, you know, familiarize 494 00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:59,360 yourself with it to know what it could be, right? 495 00:27:59,360 --> 00:28:04,800 But we see the same agony. I don't know if that's the word, 496 00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:06,920 but with any new technology, right? 497 00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:12,000 Like, you know, people who like the swords and bows and arrows, 498 00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:13,720 they didn't like gunpowder, right? 499 00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:16,720 Then people who like horses didn't like trains like, but I 500 00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:20,360 think in this case, as you alluded to before, like the 501 00:28:20,360 --> 00:28:22,760 money. Money is just the biggest topic 502 00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:27,280 that we can tackle or solve because everything that 503 00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:30,720 eventually happens or is created or built or whatever is 504 00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:34,520 downstream from, you know, the incentives of the money we use. 505 00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:39,200 And I think that's why some people are just in, in over 506 00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:41,920 their head in the beginning. I mean, I, I was the same. 507 00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:44,120 I don't have an economic or financial background or 508 00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:46,720 whatsoever, right? But, and we talked about this 509 00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:51,000 before, like once you understand what money is and that it's 510 00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:54,040 broken and that we need to fix it, you know, it doesn't really 511 00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:57,800 matter if you're red or blue or white, black, you know, 512 00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:00,400 whatever. And I, I personally really love 513 00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:05,480 that about Bitcoin, that it's not about all these, I don't 514 00:29:05,480 --> 00:29:09,360 want to say superficial, but lesser important things than, 515 00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:13,200 you know, what is the technology we use to communicate with each 516 00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:15,600 other. Yeah, Yeah. 517 00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:17,280 I think that's a really good way of describing it. 518 00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:20,640 I mean, Bitcoin transcends political categories. 519 00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:24,520 Yeah. I think the one political 520 00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:28,760 faction that is inherently against Bitcoin are those who 521 00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:31,640 want to expand the power of government and believe in 522 00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:35,280 technocracy over democracy. And I think that actually 523 00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:38,080 explains Elizabeth Warren's support for Bitcoin. 524 00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:41,360 Even though she identifies as a progressive, she's made very 525 00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:45,000 clear from the work that she's done in the Senate in her own 526 00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:48,400 political statements that she's pro central bank digital 527 00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:53,200 currencies, and she intuits correctly that Bitcoin is an 528 00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:56,440 anti CBDC. So she has every incentive to 529 00:29:56,440 --> 00:30:00,200 try to outlaw or to try to drive Bitcoin innovation offshore 530 00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:03,840 because she recognizes that that essentially clears the way for 531 00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:07,560 CBDC. And so where we do see some 532 00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:11,280 political Division, I think it is between those who believe 533 00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:14,360 that the government should oversee money and have greater 534 00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:17,400 power than it does now, and those who believe that there's a 535 00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:21,800 technology that exists to disintermediate the state and to 536 00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:25,080 separate the state from money to a certain degree, then Bitcoin 537 00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:26,520 is a really good solution for that. 538 00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:30,040 Yeah. So do you think it's strategic 539 00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:36,880 to announce, you know, a Bitcoin reserve asset strategy right now 540 00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:41,600 without having actual power to to also do anything right now? 541 00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:45,960 I mean, you know, if if there's people in China or any other 542 00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:48,960 adversary type countries of America and I think, you know, 543 00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:52,280 Trump has the biggest chance to win, he says he's going to do 544 00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:54,360 this. You know, we should look into 545 00:30:54,360 --> 00:30:57,560 this thing and maybe buy some. What are your thoughts on that? 546 00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:01,680 That's a fair question. Is it strategic if you're 547 00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:04,240 announcing what your next play is to the opposing team? 548 00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:06,240 Right. Yeah. 549 00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:10,680 No, it's it's a worthy question. My response is yes, it is just 550 00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:13,160 because of the way policy works in the United States. 551 00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:18,880 So there's really no feasible way that the US Treasury could 552 00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:22,880 secretly accumulate Bitcoin when it's matters dealing with US 553 00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:25,080 finances. There does have to be some kind 554 00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:28,520 of democratic process where the people get a say in how their 555 00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:32,560 government accumulates reserves. And so there's two vehicles for 556 00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:36,880 that, executive orders from the White House or legislation from 557 00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:40,040 Congress. And we saw both of those at play 558 00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:42,400 with Trump's announcement over the weekend and then Senator 559 00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:45,680 Lummus's announcement as well. What's really interesting about 560 00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:48,920 both policy proposals is that they dramatically opened the 561 00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:53,160 Overton window in a way that it hasn't before to even consider 562 00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:55,080 Bitcoin as a strategic reserve asset. 563 00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:58,360 Just a year ago, I think to anyone outside of the Bitcoin 564 00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:02,320 world sounded like a kooky idea that would never come to 565 00:32:02,320 --> 00:32:04,840 fruition. But as the idea kind of got 566 00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:07,840 socialized with time and as more people got educated on what 567 00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:10,880 Bitcoin is, what potential benefits it could bring to the 568 00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:14,840 United States, they were more warm and welcoming to the idea 569 00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:17,000 itself. And now that both a bill has 570 00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:21,520 been introduced in Congress and President Trump has made it a a 571 00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:28,120 platform priority for him, we now know that this is a feasible 572 00:32:28,120 --> 00:32:30,400 policy idea. And I think you'll see more 573 00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:32,760 conversations from both Democrats and Republicans alike 574 00:32:32,760 --> 00:32:34,840 about the issue. And we needed to open the 575 00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:37,480 Overton window before we could enact this kind of policy. 576 00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:39,200 These things can't really be done in secret. 577 00:32:40,040 --> 00:32:43,200 And in essence, it still is strategic, definitely. 578 00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:47,080 And I think we mentioned earlier, just before we started 579 00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:50,560 recording, talked about there was a legislator in Hong Kong 580 00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:53,800 who mentioned that he would potentially propose something 581 00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:56,080 similar to what Lummus proposed over the weekend about a 582 00:32:56,080 --> 00:33:00,200 strategic reserve asset. And that's all very small scale, 583 00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:03,560 of course, but it's drop by drop that these things happen. 584 00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:07,600 And, you know, if President Trump is elected, that really 585 00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:11,760 builds a lot of momentum behind Senator Lummus's bill where this 586 00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:14,560 could become an actual policy of the United States government. 587 00:33:14,560 --> 00:33:18,720 And at that point, I think it has the same practical effect as 588 00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:23,120 the Black Rock ETF, where all of a sudden Bitcoin is mainstreamed 589 00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:26,560 for Wall Street investors. Once you have a nation state 590 00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:30,080 like the United States, the home of global capital, accumulating 591 00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:33,960 Bitcoin as a strategic reserve asset, that essentially makes 592 00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:37,480 Bitcoin mainstream among nation states themselves, where they 593 00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:39,720 have a natural incentive knowing that the United States is 594 00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:42,320 accumulating it, to accumulate it themselves, and it really 595 00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:44,760 gets the game theory going into hyperdrive. 596 00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:48,760 Yeah, I love, I love this nuanced answer because it's 597 00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:51,560 also, you know, we are really in a bubble, right? 598 00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:55,960 We, we, I think a lot of people in Bitcoin have already thought 599 00:33:55,960 --> 00:34:00,400 about, OK, what is the best strategic move for, you know, a, 600 00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:04,560 a country and you know, it's so obvious that you need to do it. 601 00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:08,199 But I think as you just mentioned, you know, it's a, 602 00:34:08,199 --> 00:34:13,920 it's the policy making has a different pace, I would, I would 603 00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:17,480 say. But maybe the biggest signal is 604 00:34:18,199 --> 00:34:22,159 broadening the open window having even, you know, a Hong 605 00:34:22,159 --> 00:34:26,360 Kong type reply within two days over the weekends. 606 00:34:26,360 --> 00:34:30,920 Actually maybe that's already what we should look out for, 607 00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:34,120 right? And maybe that's already enough. 608 00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:39,239 Yeah, I hope so. And it draws an interesting 609 00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:42,560 contrast with Germany. We know that Germany sold all of 610 00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:44,639 their Bitcoin just a couple of weeks ago. 611 00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:48,520 It really dipped the Bitcoin price down pretty hard to the 612 00:34:48,520 --> 00:34:52,159 low 50 thousands and then rebounded very quickly after 613 00:34:52,159 --> 00:34:55,120 that. So part of me wonders if Germany 614 00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:58,120 marked the bottom among nation states by selling all of its 615 00:34:58,120 --> 00:35:01,920 Bitcoin stash. And it's like, yeah, right. 616 00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:05,600 And the United States announcing a strategic reserve is what 617 00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:08,880 really catalyzes the next bull run, at least among nation 618 00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:10,920 states. So it'll be fascinating to see 619 00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:12,560 how it all plays out. Yeah. 620 00:35:13,080 --> 00:35:16,840 Another thing I find really interesting from that proposal 621 00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:23,560 of Cynthia Lomas is that she kind of has set the bar for, you 622 00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:26,840 know, a sovereign strategic reserve, which is 5% of total 623 00:35:26,840 --> 00:35:31,760 supply as she mentioned, right? So she says, OK, we need to get 624 00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:37,160 to 1,000,000 Bitcoin. RFK had another approach. 625 00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:42,040 He was like, OK, we own 20% of all the dollar or of all the 626 00:35:42,040 --> 00:35:45,800 gold in the world, so we should also own 20% of all the Bitcoin 627 00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:47,960 in the world. So he proposed 4 million 628 00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:53,120 Bitcoin, which I think is I, I appreciate the idea, but I, I 629 00:35:53,120 --> 00:35:55,040 don't know if that's still still doable. 630 00:35:55,400 --> 00:36:00,400 But even the million, you know, in five years. 631 00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:05,080 She also said, I think that bar, I, I think it's interesting is 632 00:36:05,080 --> 00:36:09,600 that she said a bar, but also that it's that million in that 633 00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:11,160 time frame. What are your thoughts on that? 634 00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:17,720 Yeah, I thought that RF KS proposal, obviously I liked it 635 00:36:17,720 --> 00:36:22,440 as a Bitcoiner, but my first reaction is I worried that it 636 00:36:22,480 --> 00:36:27,920 would actually centralized Bitcoin in a way that is 637 00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:29,560 dangerous to the Bitcoin network. 638 00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:32,880 If the United States owns 4 million of the world's 21 639 00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:35,680 million Bitcoin, that's great for the United States, but I 640 00:36:35,680 --> 00:36:39,560 worried about how centralized Bitcoin might become in that 641 00:36:39,560 --> 00:36:44,240 situation for the United States. So I also, and I think RFK is, 642 00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:47,480 is a great man. I admire him as a politician in 643 00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:52,800 many ways, but I, I think he knew that his role in the 644 00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:57,040 conference was to anchor in negotiation terms, to set a 645 00:36:57,040 --> 00:37:00,400 heavy anchor for the other policy makers to try to match, 646 00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:02,120 knowing that they probably wouldn't be able to. 647 00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:05,040 And he also put that forward knowing that it's not super 648 00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:09,760 likely that he'll be president. But I admire the the ambition 649 00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:12,200 behind this proposal. I do think that Senator Lummus's 650 00:37:12,200 --> 00:37:17,680 proposal of 1,000,000 is much more feasible and really would 651 00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:20,400 be give the United States a competitive edge. 652 00:37:20,840 --> 00:37:25,080 I like to think of Bitcoin and gold in terms of Netflix and 653 00:37:25,080 --> 00:37:29,640 Blockbuster. I actually think that gold has 654 00:37:29,640 --> 00:37:32,440 the potential to be blockbustered, so to speak, by 655 00:37:32,440 --> 00:37:36,240 Bitcoin itself because Bitcoin is in a way start up gold. 656 00:37:36,240 --> 00:37:40,680 It's got all the properties of gold, but then it has a lot of 657 00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:43,800 characteristics that make it a superior form of gold in terms 658 00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:48,760 of being more portable, more scarce, much harder to mine, 659 00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:55,440 much easier to verify. So it offers a lot of the 660 00:37:55,440 --> 00:37:59,120 benefits of analog gold, but brings with it certain benefits 661 00:37:59,120 --> 00:38:02,600 that make it arguably a much better store value. 662 00:38:02,600 --> 00:38:05,640 Of course, that thesis is yet to play out, but I think the United 663 00:38:05,640 --> 00:38:08,960 States are really any nation state should have an interest in 664 00:38:08,960 --> 00:38:11,320 accumulating its own strategic reserve. 665 00:38:12,200 --> 00:38:16,080 More or less is a call option on the thesis that Bitcoin does one 666 00:38:16,080 --> 00:38:19,720 day either achieve parity with gold or even surpass it. 667 00:38:20,360 --> 00:38:22,800 Just from that perspective alone, I think it makes sense 668 00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:25,680 for countries to own at least a little bit of Bitcoin in the 669 00:38:25,680 --> 00:38:30,600 same way that makes sense for individual investors, some might 670 00:38:30,600 --> 00:38:31,840 say, to own a little bit of Bitcoin. 671 00:38:31,840 --> 00:38:34,960 Of course, I'm not a financial advisor and that's not financial 672 00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:38,360 advice, but I think that's the thesis behind a lot of 673 00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:40,040 accumulation on an individual level. 674 00:38:40,040 --> 00:38:42,920 And I think pretty soon we'll see that same accumulation among 675 00:38:43,520 --> 00:38:46,960 pension funds and companies and eventually nation states. 676 00:38:48,320 --> 00:38:50,640 Yeah, I don't think that's a farce, farce stretch. 677 00:38:50,680 --> 00:38:56,320 I mean having gold is is a hedge against their own field system, 678 00:38:56,320 --> 00:38:59,400 right. I think at least the central 679 00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:03,640 Bank of my country has has said that literally, you know, we 680 00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:08,200 have gold in case our money system doesn't survive. 681 00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:12,400 But what I find interesting, and I think once that clicks, that's 682 00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:15,320 probably far away, but then we will see more of the shift 683 00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:18,440 towards Bitcoin, is that, you know, why do you have gold? 684 00:39:18,440 --> 00:39:20,880 Yeah, I have gold because everyone else has gold. 685 00:39:20,880 --> 00:39:22,760 So why does everyone else have gold? 686 00:39:22,760 --> 00:39:26,560 Yeah, because, you know, it was used by the Egyptians for for 687 00:39:26,560 --> 00:39:28,520 these amounts of years and blah, blah. 688 00:39:28,560 --> 00:39:34,160 Like it's all talk, right. Like it's kind of like someone 689 00:39:34,160 --> 00:39:37,040 said it and then they'll they'll follow each other, right? 690 00:39:37,040 --> 00:39:42,280 Like it, it feels like, and, and it's funny, I don't know, I 691 00:39:42,280 --> 00:39:45,160 forgot to ask what which generation you belong to. 692 00:39:45,160 --> 00:39:50,040 But like, for me, just thinking about owning gold myself feels 693 00:39:50,040 --> 00:39:54,080 so old. I'd like it feels prehistoric. 694 00:39:54,120 --> 00:39:56,640 Like, what are you, what are you talking about? 695 00:39:57,080 --> 00:39:59,400 You know, like, why should you own a shiny rock? 696 00:39:59,400 --> 00:40:02,200 Not to diss the gold box, but like, do whatever you want. 697 00:40:02,200 --> 00:40:06,360 But at least for me, as someone who grew up in, you know, first 698 00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:09,880 analog, then a digital age, like just holding a shiny rock 699 00:40:09,880 --> 00:40:13,680 doesn't make sense for me. And holding it because other 700 00:40:13,680 --> 00:40:18,560 people say it has value, right? Like it's, it's a story, you 701 00:40:18,560 --> 00:40:24,440 know, and I think Bitcoin. Is is the and and you have to 702 00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:25,960 trust in the story of gold, right? 703 00:40:25,960 --> 00:40:32,440 And and that the don't trust verify, you know, tagline of 704 00:40:32,440 --> 00:40:35,000 Bitcoin. For me, it just makes much more 705 00:40:35,120 --> 00:40:36,600 sense. Like should I believe in 706 00:40:36,600 --> 00:40:38,160 something because other people say it? 707 00:40:38,160 --> 00:40:41,680 Or should I believe in something or have conviction on something 708 00:40:42,000 --> 00:40:45,280 that it could help me because I can verify it for myself, right? 709 00:40:45,280 --> 00:40:50,760 Like just just that is for me, it's just way more rational to 710 00:40:50,760 --> 00:40:53,480 have Bitcoin. Like you don't have to believe 711 00:40:53,480 --> 00:40:55,120 it, like you can verify it, right? 712 00:40:55,120 --> 00:40:58,200 And gold is more of a of a belief type asset. 713 00:40:59,200 --> 00:41:00,880 Yeah, that's a good way of putting it. 714 00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:04,040 Like you said, you can verify everything on the blockchain. 715 00:41:04,040 --> 00:41:07,680 It's the most transparent form of money that exists. 716 00:41:07,680 --> 00:41:10,160 And yeah, for the record, I too am a millennial. 717 00:41:10,160 --> 00:41:13,120 So all right, when I saw OK, the Bitcoin from Millennials 718 00:41:13,120 --> 00:41:14,960 podcast, like that's record my alley. 719 00:41:16,560 --> 00:41:18,800 Yeah. And I think gold is great. 720 00:41:18,920 --> 00:41:21,640 And I think one advantage of gold over the other I'm. 721 00:41:21,640 --> 00:41:24,480 Not saying it doesn't work right, but this is better. 722 00:41:25,240 --> 00:41:26,960 Yeah, that is more of a conclusion. 723 00:41:27,680 --> 00:41:29,640 Exactly, Exactly. Yeah. 724 00:41:29,640 --> 00:41:32,680 I was going to say gold has the advantage of being Lindy, so to 725 00:41:32,680 --> 00:41:35,240 speak. You know, it's been proven over 726 00:41:35,240 --> 00:41:37,920 time to be pretty amazing store value. 727 00:41:39,000 --> 00:41:41,360 But I think a lot of gold bugs kind of rest on their laurels. 728 00:41:41,360 --> 00:41:44,920 Sometimes I think, oh, Bitcoin is Lindy like gold as well. 729 00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:48,080 It isn't yet because it's very young still, but it seems like 730 00:41:48,080 --> 00:41:52,280 Bitcoin is in its teenage years as a digital or as a financial 731 00:41:52,280 --> 00:41:54,720 asset. And we're seeing it, you know, 732 00:41:54,720 --> 00:41:55,840 what happens to your teenage years? 733 00:41:55,840 --> 00:41:59,480 A growth spurt, right? We could see like a real price 734 00:41:59,480 --> 00:42:02,160 accumulation over the next decade that could put it on even 735 00:42:02,160 --> 00:42:05,240 terms with gold. And I just love because I feel 736 00:42:05,240 --> 00:42:08,840 the same way as a millennial. I mean, so much of our lives 737 00:42:08,840 --> 00:42:13,680 have lived online that I don't enjoy particularly owning 738 00:42:13,720 --> 00:42:18,080 physical things. Of course, you know, a car like 739 00:42:18,080 --> 00:42:20,520 basic necessities, TV, computer, those are all things you need, 740 00:42:20,520 --> 00:42:23,600 but there's certain conveniences with owning things digitally. 741 00:42:23,600 --> 00:42:25,080 And I think that's the beauty of Bitcoin. 742 00:42:25,080 --> 00:42:28,720 You know, you can carry Bitcoin with you wherever you go as long 743 00:42:28,720 --> 00:42:32,360 as you remember the C phrase. And that in and of itself is a 744 00:42:32,360 --> 00:42:34,880 revolutionary technology. I, I just think of some of the, 745 00:42:35,320 --> 00:42:38,760 you know, Bitcoin millionaires out there, the fact that they 746 00:42:38,760 --> 00:42:42,040 can transport their wealth with them wherever they go across 747 00:42:42,040 --> 00:42:46,440 borders, across customs, just by knowing their seed phrase in 748 00:42:46,440 --> 00:42:49,880 their head is truly incredible. Whereas with gold, to transport 749 00:42:49,880 --> 00:42:55,520 gold anywhere is a huge financial cost and there's 750 00:42:55,520 --> 00:42:58,600 security risks that go with it. And so again, it's just one area 751 00:42:58,600 --> 00:43:01,720 where I think Bitcoin is in many ways a superior form of gold. 752 00:43:02,320 --> 00:43:06,280 Yeah, I think two things, like the the argument of people who 753 00:43:06,280 --> 00:43:09,000 like gold where they say like Bitcoin is young, I think that's 754 00:43:09,000 --> 00:43:11,920 the weakest argument. It's not an irrelevant argument, 755 00:43:11,920 --> 00:43:14,760 but I think it's the weakest. So we we already ended up at the 756 00:43:14,760 --> 00:43:18,360 weakest argument, right. Just because something is new 757 00:43:18,360 --> 00:43:19,920 doesn't mean it cannot be better, right. 758 00:43:19,920 --> 00:43:22,960 Like I think I you know, it's, it's yeah, it's just a weak 759 00:43:22,960 --> 00:43:24,240 argument. Yes, it's true. 760 00:43:24,440 --> 00:43:28,200 But, you know, look at all the other stuff as you just alluded 761 00:43:28,200 --> 00:43:31,400 to, you know, more transportable, all these things. 762 00:43:32,960 --> 00:43:34,840 So I think it's interesting that we're already there. 763 00:43:34,840 --> 00:43:38,360 And I agree with you like a lot, at least from my perspective. 764 00:43:38,360 --> 00:43:40,560 A lot of gold people are just like, yeah, I have gold. 765 00:43:40,560 --> 00:43:43,560 I'm just, yeah, I'm good, you know. 766 00:43:43,560 --> 00:43:47,400 But they forget that there's also competition in assets, 767 00:43:47,400 --> 00:43:51,800 competition in, in money, you know, and because Bitcoin is a 768 00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:56,440 digital money, it's more fierce competition and adoption will go 769 00:43:56,440 --> 00:44:01,080 faster than, you know, any other physical alternative, right? 770 00:44:01,080 --> 00:44:04,040 If there would be any alternative, basically. 771 00:44:04,040 --> 00:44:07,600 And, and what you said, I think, you know, for millennials, and I 772 00:44:07,600 --> 00:44:13,680 think this is one of the points that I'd love to reiterate on we 773 00:44:13,680 --> 00:44:20,040 grew up with, you know, Limewire because you know, like Napster, 774 00:44:20,040 --> 00:44:23,160 all these things, like everything on the Internet, 775 00:44:23,160 --> 00:44:27,240 anything that's digital can be created and copied infinitely, 776 00:44:27,720 --> 00:44:31,000 OK. And so if there's a technology 777 00:44:31,480 --> 00:44:37,360 that makes something that's digital finitely scarce, you 778 00:44:37,360 --> 00:44:40,760 have to pay attention because that is the that is the 779 00:44:40,760 --> 00:44:43,280 invention, right? That is the discovery that that 780 00:44:43,360 --> 00:44:46,680 is not possible with any other digital thing. 781 00:44:46,680 --> 00:44:50,520 So the fact that it is possible here and that even, you know, 782 00:44:52,080 --> 00:44:54,920 and I find it still hard to explain, but this is a digital 783 00:44:54,920 --> 00:44:56,960 thing, but it's almost tangible, right? 784 00:44:56,960 --> 00:45:00,320 Like you can write down letters and numbers with a pen on the 785 00:45:00,320 --> 00:45:04,280 paper and that can represent that information can represent a 786 00:45:04,280 --> 00:45:08,440 billion dollar asset, you know, so it makes it makes it 787 00:45:08,440 --> 00:45:10,120 tangible. I love what Jack Mueller says 788 00:45:10,120 --> 00:45:15,200 about, you know, the information is the asset and that that is 789 00:45:15,200 --> 00:45:18,480 really what Bitcoin is. And I think, I don't know how 790 00:45:18,480 --> 00:45:19,720 you look at that. I'd love to hear. 791 00:45:19,720 --> 00:45:22,040 But that is one of the most important things I think to make 792 00:45:22,040 --> 00:45:25,040 to just show like that is the innovation, the fact that you 793 00:45:25,040 --> 00:45:28,280 cannot just copy this endlessly. That's the entire point. 794 00:45:30,120 --> 00:45:33,240 Yeah, it's incredible. I mean, Bitcoin was really the 795 00:45:33,240 --> 00:45:36,600 first invention to even introduce the whole idea of 796 00:45:36,600 --> 00:45:39,760 digital scarcity. And that in and of itself, in my 797 00:45:39,760 --> 00:45:41,840 opinion is a multi trillion dollar idea. 798 00:45:42,280 --> 00:45:45,400 And I think we'll see Bitcoin achieve a multi trillion dollar 799 00:45:45,400 --> 00:45:49,000 market cap over time because that's how much value is behind 800 00:45:49,000 --> 00:45:55,480 such a revolutionary concept. The idea too of digital versus 801 00:45:55,480 --> 00:45:59,480 analog makes me think again of the Netflix versus Blockbuster 802 00:46:00,000 --> 00:46:03,320 analogy. So comparing gold to 803 00:46:03,320 --> 00:46:08,000 blockbuster, blockbuster, I, I figure most of your audience is 804 00:46:08,000 --> 00:46:09,560 millennials, maybe some Gen. Z. 805 00:46:09,560 --> 00:46:10,920 And so maybe even some Gen. Z. 806 00:46:10,920 --> 00:46:13,040 Remember what Blockbuster was too? 807 00:46:14,480 --> 00:46:15,760 Yeah, lots of. OK, lots of. 808 00:46:15,760 --> 00:46:16,120 Food. They know. 809 00:46:16,200 --> 00:46:19,280 They know Blockbuster. Right, right. 810 00:46:19,280 --> 00:46:22,320 So, so of course with Blockbuster, people would go to 811 00:46:22,320 --> 00:46:26,800 a physical video store, they would rent a physical video 812 00:46:26,800 --> 00:46:30,080 cassette or DVD and they would take it home with them and they 813 00:46:30,080 --> 00:46:32,680 would, you know, put it into their VCR and, and things would 814 00:46:32,680 --> 00:46:35,520 play and it was all physical. It was all analog. 815 00:46:35,520 --> 00:46:39,080 The Netflix came along and introduce a new concept of 816 00:46:39,560 --> 00:46:43,440 mailing DVDs and video cassettes to people and eventually Netflix 817 00:46:43,440 --> 00:46:46,320 went straight to digital and it became a streaming service. 818 00:46:46,560 --> 00:46:49,560 And the whole time Blockbusters thought, oh, this is just an 819 00:46:49,560 --> 00:46:52,560 upstart company, you know, we don't have to worry about this. 820 00:46:52,560 --> 00:46:55,840 But the second Netflix went all digital, it was game over for 821 00:46:55,840 --> 00:46:58,920 Blockbuster. And that I think is the genius 822 00:46:58,920 --> 00:47:01,960 behind Bitcoin itself. It takes the business model or 823 00:47:03,400 --> 00:47:07,120 essentially the economic value of gold, and it makes it digital 824 00:47:07,320 --> 00:47:10,360 in a way that no other invention has before. 825 00:47:10,360 --> 00:47:13,400 And it achieves what you were describing, Brahm, that digital 826 00:47:13,400 --> 00:47:19,000 scarcity, which is so important in a world of digital abundance, 827 00:47:19,000 --> 00:47:20,800 right? If you can make something that 828 00:47:20,800 --> 00:47:24,560 is truly digitally scarce, that can't be replicated, like Kazaa 829 00:47:24,560 --> 00:47:29,080 and Napster and songs that we would listen to growing up, that 830 00:47:29,080 --> 00:47:32,720 in and of itself really changes the game and allows there to be 831 00:47:32,720 --> 00:47:36,520 a currency of the Internet that has the potential to change not 832 00:47:36,520 --> 00:47:39,520 only how we transact on the Internet, but as we transact as 833 00:47:39,520 --> 00:47:43,320 human beings. I like to think of money as sort 834 00:47:43,320 --> 00:47:47,600 of the layer zero of humanity. And currently that layer zero is 835 00:47:47,600 --> 00:47:50,000 Fiat currency. And I think that begets a lot of 836 00:47:50,000 --> 00:47:53,760 the problems that we're seeing in the world with Fiat or with 837 00:47:53,760 --> 00:47:57,720 inflation, and that has trickled down effects that really affect 838 00:47:58,080 --> 00:48:00,680 every corner of our society. But if you can change that layer 839 00:48:00,680 --> 00:48:05,400 zero to some kind of currency that is hard, that gives people 840 00:48:05,400 --> 00:48:09,200 the ability to save over time, you're essentially swapping out 841 00:48:09,200 --> 00:48:12,320 the layer zero of humanity, which could change the way human 842 00:48:12,320 --> 00:48:15,560 civilization itself operates. And that is the promise of 843 00:48:15,560 --> 00:48:17,720 Bitcoin. And one of the reasons why I 844 00:48:17,720 --> 00:48:20,600 love working in this industry, because if we can really make 845 00:48:20,600 --> 00:48:23,200 true on that promise, if we can bring about a world where 846 00:48:23,680 --> 00:48:28,080 currency is hard again and it is cannot be manipulated by central 847 00:48:28,080 --> 00:48:32,680 bankers or politicians who are trying to sell the future of 848 00:48:33,320 --> 00:48:36,480 their children to people here in the present, then that can 849 00:48:36,480 --> 00:48:39,080 really change the way things work in the United States and 850 00:48:39,080 --> 00:48:40,800 Europe, really all across the world. 851 00:48:41,640 --> 00:48:44,240 Yeah, yeah. I couldn't agree more. 852 00:48:44,240 --> 00:48:49,440 I think it is the base layer. And if we can create a 853 00:48:49,440 --> 00:48:55,680 transparent on unchangeable base layer, then anything that's 854 00:48:55,680 --> 00:48:59,440 built on top of that has to adhere to those principles, 855 00:48:59,640 --> 00:49:02,400 right? And that's why, yeah, I'd like 856 00:49:02,400 --> 00:49:06,400 to talk about the alignment of incentives where now we touched 857 00:49:06,400 --> 00:49:09,800 on this in the beginning, right? Like Fiat money creates bad 858 00:49:09,800 --> 00:49:13,760 incentives. So no one is really invited, you 859 00:49:13,760 --> 00:49:17,040 know, to actually deliver value or to make things better and 860 00:49:17,040 --> 00:49:19,280 better and better, right. It's kind of like we are going 861 00:49:19,280 --> 00:49:22,360 back in time, like the bread is more expensive than 50 years 862 00:49:22,360 --> 00:49:25,280 ago. And nutritionally probably also 863 00:49:26,040 --> 00:49:31,320 worse, you know, where we probably should have been in a 864 00:49:31,320 --> 00:49:34,800 place where the bread is free and no one is hungry, you know. 865 00:49:35,760 --> 00:49:39,600 And so I think I also think we can get there if we have Bitcoin 866 00:49:39,600 --> 00:49:43,760 as that as a base layer. But you know, I do you think 867 00:49:43,760 --> 00:49:47,480 other people in other countries, other leaders in other countries 868 00:49:47,480 --> 00:49:50,320 think about this too? Like it just makes so much sense 869 00:49:50,320 --> 00:49:55,840 for me that I'm kind of like surprised that no, I always kind 870 00:49:55,840 --> 00:49:59,840 of say like serious country followed El Salvador, like a big 871 00:49:59,840 --> 00:50:05,360 enough, powerful enough country. What are your thoughts on that? 872 00:50:05,360 --> 00:50:07,840 Like are there are there any countries that are going to 873 00:50:07,840 --> 00:50:13,160 react to this, you know, reserve asset strategy before the US 874 00:50:13,160 --> 00:50:16,760 election? Is anything going to pop off in 875 00:50:16,760 --> 00:50:18,520 the in the global game theory perspective? 876 00:50:20,520 --> 00:50:24,840 Yeah, If I were a discerning policy maker in a country 877 00:50:24,840 --> 00:50:27,880 outside the United States that had the means, I would actually 878 00:50:27,880 --> 00:50:31,720 try to front run this because if Donald Trump is elected, because 879 00:50:31,720 --> 00:50:34,920 we're already talking about the Trump pump, you know, and a lot 880 00:50:34,920 --> 00:50:37,760 of people are speculating that the reason why Bitcoin hasn't 881 00:50:37,760 --> 00:50:41,280 taken off yet is because investors are still not certain 882 00:50:41,280 --> 00:50:42,880 that Donald Trump will be president. 883 00:50:43,840 --> 00:50:46,200 They seem to have a sense that if he is president, that 884 00:50:46,200 --> 00:50:48,440 completely changes the game for Bitcoin. 885 00:50:49,120 --> 00:50:52,120 All of a sudden Bitcoin policy moves from a defensive stature 886 00:50:52,120 --> 00:50:56,400 to an offensive stature where we have a president in the White 887 00:50:56,400 --> 00:50:59,360 House who not only supports our industry, but a vice president 888 00:50:59,360 --> 00:51:02,480 who owns more than a quarter $1,000,000 worth of Bitcoin. 889 00:51:03,160 --> 00:51:06,240 So that changes the game. And if I honestly, if I were, 890 00:51:06,880 --> 00:51:11,480 say a central banker in Europe or Asia or just a wise policy 891 00:51:11,480 --> 00:51:15,840 maker, I recognize that the next six months between now and a 892 00:51:15,840 --> 00:51:18,880 potential Donald Trump presidency are a great 893 00:51:18,880 --> 00:51:23,720 opportunity to start stacking stats for my country to get 894 00:51:23,720 --> 00:51:27,520 ahead of the potential of a Trump pump or the potential of 895 00:51:27,520 --> 00:51:32,320 the United States just running away from the field by 896 00:51:32,320 --> 00:51:35,320 accumulating so much Bitcoin. I mean, United States already 897 00:51:35,320 --> 00:51:38,440 has a big leg up over other countries just because it sees 898 00:51:38,440 --> 00:51:40,680 so much Bitcoin from Melissa actors over the years. 899 00:51:40,680 --> 00:51:45,600 But I, I would, if I had the means as a central banker in 900 00:51:45,600 --> 00:51:48,600 another country, I think that this could be a prime 901 00:51:48,600 --> 00:51:52,040 opportunity to start accumulating my own strategic 902 00:51:52,040 --> 00:51:54,960 Bitcoin reserve. Whether or not that will happen, 903 00:51:56,040 --> 00:51:59,080 I'm a little skeptical just because again, we we've been 904 00:51:59,080 --> 00:52:01,760 pushing hard on the Overton window and you can feel when 905 00:52:01,760 --> 00:52:05,200 you're opening the Overton window up more and more, there's 906 00:52:05,200 --> 00:52:08,280 a lot of resistance there and a lot of traditional economists 907 00:52:09,160 --> 00:52:12,800 just online Last week I went to toe to toe with a number of 908 00:52:12,800 --> 00:52:16,560 different guys who are more from Fiat world who generally grasp 909 00:52:16,560 --> 00:52:20,640 this idea. And because of that alone, I 910 00:52:20,640 --> 00:52:23,680 think we might not see something in the next six months. 911 00:52:23,680 --> 00:52:26,720 But over the next couple years, especially if we get a Donald 912 00:52:26,720 --> 00:52:29,520 Trump presidency, I do think you'll start to see this nation 913 00:52:29,520 --> 00:52:32,120 state game theory start to play out in real time. 914 00:52:32,120 --> 00:52:33,920 It'll be really fascinating to watch. 915 00:52:34,280 --> 00:52:37,720 Yeah, Did you get caught up in the discussion with the guy who 916 00:52:37,720 --> 00:52:40,680 started talking about the divisibility of a pizza or? 917 00:52:41,960 --> 00:52:45,560 No, I got caught up in a discussion with George Selgin. 918 00:52:45,840 --> 00:52:49,160 He's an economist at the Cato Institute in. 919 00:52:49,720 --> 00:52:52,520 He just didn't like the idea of Bitcoin as a strategic reserve 920 00:52:52,520 --> 00:52:53,680 asset. And honestly, I don't know if he 921 00:52:53,680 --> 00:52:57,040 was trying to engagement farm or if he genuinely held those 922 00:52:57,040 --> 00:52:58,480 beliefs. I think he genuinely held those 923 00:52:58,480 --> 00:53:00,960 beliefs. But I was just making the case 924 00:53:00,960 --> 00:53:03,360 for Bitcoin as just as a strategic reserve. 925 00:53:03,360 --> 00:53:06,760 And he was making the argument that, oh, this is just something 926 00:53:06,760 --> 00:53:09,640 that Bitcoiners want to pump their own bags. 927 00:53:09,640 --> 00:53:12,160 Which I mean, you're not saying anything profound if you're 928 00:53:12,160 --> 00:53:14,480 pointing out the fact that, yeah, Bitcoiners will obviously 929 00:53:14,480 --> 00:53:16,080 benefit from nation state adoption. 930 00:53:16,080 --> 00:53:19,200 But my argument is that nation states themselves will benefit 931 00:53:19,200 --> 00:53:25,240 as well because they improve their own strategic reserves and 932 00:53:25,240 --> 00:53:28,640 they give themselves potentially a lifeboat if the if 933 00:53:28,640 --> 00:53:30,720 hyperinflation were ever to take place. 934 00:53:31,040 --> 00:53:34,440 And I just at the end of the day, Bitcoin is the scarcest 935 00:53:34,440 --> 00:53:37,320 monetary asset in the world. And if you're a developing 936 00:53:37,320 --> 00:53:40,440 country who believes that tech is the future, why wouldn't you 937 00:53:40,440 --> 00:53:43,280 accumulate at least a little bit of the Bitcoin supply? 938 00:53:43,280 --> 00:53:45,040 It just seems to make logical sense. 939 00:53:45,280 --> 00:53:50,840 Yeah, that argument of you just talk about it to pump your own 940 00:53:50,840 --> 00:53:53,400 bags, I think is in the same category as the other one. 941 00:53:53,400 --> 00:53:56,120 Like it's it's the weakest of arguments. 942 00:53:56,880 --> 00:54:00,160 You know, there's there's Sailor said this years ago, right? 943 00:54:00,160 --> 00:54:02,880 There are no informed critiques, but I don't see a lot of 944 00:54:03,120 --> 00:54:06,800 honestly informed critiques like with, with substance, right? 945 00:54:06,800 --> 00:54:12,360 Talking about, you know, fixed monetary policy is a bad thing 946 00:54:12,360 --> 00:54:14,880 or something, right? Or a fixed supply is a bad thing 947 00:54:14,880 --> 00:54:17,880 or, you know, and then explain it however you want, right. 948 00:54:17,880 --> 00:54:21,120 But it's always like, you know, similar to what you said, like 949 00:54:21,120 --> 00:54:22,920 you're only talking about it because you want to pump your 950 00:54:22,920 --> 00:54:24,440 own bags. And I always think like, you 951 00:54:24,440 --> 00:54:27,400 know, what would be weird if I would advocate for this and not 952 00:54:27,400 --> 00:54:33,120 own anything that will be even worse, you know, So it's just, I 953 00:54:33,120 --> 00:54:36,320 don't know, it's nonsense, but I, I, it's so interesting that 954 00:54:36,720 --> 00:54:41,960 these people from, from this other paradigm, you know, the, 955 00:54:41,960 --> 00:54:47,640 the, the cage in economics that they are so emotional, you know, 956 00:54:47,760 --> 00:54:51,280 and also clueless in sometimes. I meant, I refer to the pizza 957 00:54:51,280 --> 00:54:52,720 guy. There was another discussion 958 00:54:52,720 --> 00:54:55,880 where the guy was like, yeah, but if you, you can divide any 959 00:54:55,880 --> 00:54:59,520 Bitcoin in 100 million sub units rights. 960 00:54:59,520 --> 00:55:01,920 And so if you do that with a pizza, there's like infinite 961 00:55:01,920 --> 00:55:03,880 pizza. And then everyone, like lots of 962 00:55:03,880 --> 00:55:07,400 people quote posted that because they were like her. 963 00:55:07,400 --> 00:55:09,560 But we heard this reply a few months ago. 964 00:55:09,560 --> 00:55:11,840 I don't, I don't know the name of the woman who said it, but 965 00:55:11,840 --> 00:55:14,960 it's like, OK, so we bake one pizza and then we have infinite 966 00:55:14,960 --> 00:55:17,640 pizza for everyone. And what, what are you talking 967 00:55:17,640 --> 00:55:18,000 about? Right? 968 00:55:18,160 --> 00:55:22,400 It's also, it's just such the arguments are so weak. 969 00:55:22,400 --> 00:55:24,920 I'm really, you know, I've been in Bitcoin for 10 years. 970 00:55:24,920 --> 00:55:28,920 I'm looking for substantiated arguments. 971 00:55:29,480 --> 00:55:32,440 There's just not that many. There are some, you know, about 972 00:55:32,440 --> 00:55:36,000 potential of future security, the block subsidy, all these 973 00:55:36,000 --> 00:55:41,360 things which I think are legit, but they are far away, right 974 00:55:41,360 --> 00:55:44,600 that you can anticipate on on handling them. 975 00:55:44,600 --> 00:55:47,080 And I think they are already clear now. 976 00:55:47,080 --> 00:55:52,920 But all the short term proponents, you know, proponent 977 00:55:52,920 --> 00:55:56,200 arguments are just, I don't know, weak. 978 00:55:58,000 --> 00:56:01,640 Yeah, they're weak, and the arguments are old and recycled 979 00:56:01,640 --> 00:56:04,000 and stale at this point. I mean, how many times are we 980 00:56:04,000 --> 00:56:06,440 going to see the pizza analogy used over and over? 981 00:56:06,440 --> 00:56:09,600 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. People, usually from the 982 00:56:09,600 --> 00:56:13,160 traditional financial world who think that they've, you know, 983 00:56:13,160 --> 00:56:15,200 found some new information that Bitcoiners have never 984 00:56:15,200 --> 00:56:17,440 considered. I think that in and of itself is 985 00:56:17,440 --> 00:56:20,600 a tell that they don't think highly of the Bitcoin community, 986 00:56:20,840 --> 00:56:22,880 that they think that after, you know, more than a decade of 987 00:56:22,880 --> 00:56:26,080 existence, Bitcoiners themselves had never even considered what 988 00:56:26,080 --> 00:56:29,720 they think is a novel idea that will forever put to rest the 989 00:56:29,720 --> 00:56:32,200 idea of Bitcoin. It's like, no, we've that's been 990 00:56:32,200 --> 00:56:35,440 considered over and over again. And yeah, sometimes I do. 991 00:56:35,560 --> 00:56:38,480 I like you, Brahm. I wish that we had a stronger 992 00:56:38,480 --> 00:56:40,760 critics. You know, we, we've got some 993 00:56:40,760 --> 00:56:43,480 strong ones out there. But I also think that the more 994 00:56:43,480 --> 00:56:46,920 you understand Bitcoin, the more you believe in it. 995 00:56:46,920 --> 00:56:50,240 I've met very few people, if anyone, now that I really think 996 00:56:50,240 --> 00:56:53,200 about it, who actually understands Bitcoin, who doesn't 997 00:56:53,240 --> 00:56:56,320 also believe in it exactly. I think a lot of. 998 00:56:56,320 --> 00:56:58,760 The belief comes from the study, right? 999 00:56:59,120 --> 00:57:02,280 It's not belief from someone else telling you you should 1000 00:57:02,280 --> 00:57:04,920 believe it, right? Anyone listening to us, you 1001 00:57:05,000 --> 00:57:08,400 should not listen to to what we think or say about this. 1002 00:57:08,400 --> 00:57:11,000 You have to verify this and study yourself. 1003 00:57:11,000 --> 00:57:14,560 That's the difference, no? Right. 1004 00:57:14,840 --> 00:57:17,040 Yeah, yeah. Which I think speaks to the very 1005 00:57:17,040 --> 00:57:20,000 idea of Bitcoin as a form of self sovereignty. 1006 00:57:20,200 --> 00:57:24,560 You know, to understand Bitcoin, you as an individual have to 1007 00:57:24,560 --> 00:57:28,120 take it upon yourself to understand it, to get educated. 1008 00:57:28,120 --> 00:57:31,480 It's I think Bitcoin is all about responsibility at the end 1009 00:57:31,480 --> 00:57:36,160 of the day, whether it's owning your own asset or taking the 1010 00:57:36,160 --> 00:57:39,520 initiative on your own to truly understand what it's all about, 1011 00:57:39,520 --> 00:57:41,800 which is something that's always drawn me to the world of 1012 00:57:41,800 --> 00:57:45,320 Bitcoin. This idea that it's Bitcoin is 1013 00:57:45,320 --> 00:57:46,840 responsibility at the end of the day. 1014 00:57:47,160 --> 00:57:49,640 And I think responsibility is a path to freedom. 1015 00:57:50,840 --> 00:57:54,080 In a lot of our modern societies today, you have people who 1016 00:57:54,320 --> 00:57:56,360 simply don't want responsibility. 1017 00:57:56,360 --> 00:57:57,880 They want to defer to the government. 1018 00:57:57,880 --> 00:58:00,960 They want social programs to take care of them. 1019 00:58:01,000 --> 00:58:04,160 They want universal basic income check in the mail. 1020 00:58:04,440 --> 00:58:07,520 And at every stage, these people are refusing to take 1021 00:58:07,520 --> 00:58:09,320 responsibility for their own lives. 1022 00:58:09,320 --> 00:58:13,080 But Bitcoin offers a radical alternative where it offers 1023 00:58:13,080 --> 00:58:16,840 people the opportunity to take extreme responsibility by being 1024 00:58:16,840 --> 00:58:20,040 their own bank. And that can be intimidating to 1025 00:58:20,040 --> 00:58:21,800 a lot of people, which is understandable. 1026 00:58:21,800 --> 00:58:27,080 But at the same time, I think in a in a world that negates or 1027 00:58:27,320 --> 00:58:29,880 runs away from responsibility at every turn, we need something 1028 00:58:29,880 --> 00:58:32,400 that is a counter to that, and that's what Bitcoin represents. 1029 00:58:32,880 --> 00:58:37,680 Yeah, yeah, 100%. I, I have another take away of, 1030 00:58:38,080 --> 00:58:41,160 you know, these announcements at the conference, what I thought 1031 00:58:41,160 --> 00:58:44,040 was interesting because I tweeted like, OK, this was like 1032 00:58:44,080 --> 00:58:47,640 a three out of 10 speech. And then some people pointed me 1033 00:58:47,640 --> 00:58:50,000 to, OK, you know, we are, we are in a bubble. 1034 00:58:50,000 --> 00:58:52,080 This is actually, and you know, we just talked about it. 1035 00:58:52,080 --> 00:58:54,520 I think it's the vibe shift, it's the signal. 1036 00:58:54,520 --> 00:58:59,000 It's, it's, it's, it's making the Overton window bigger, 1037 00:58:59,000 --> 00:59:02,120 right? That's the entire entire point. 1038 00:59:02,120 --> 00:59:06,680 So I think outside of our bubble, it was a 10/10 speech, 1039 00:59:06,680 --> 00:59:10,600 although it was incoherent as hell, but still, you know, good 1040 00:59:10,680 --> 00:59:13,720 speech. But we didn't see Bitcoin as 1041 00:59:13,720 --> 00:59:16,200 legal tender. We didn't hear currency 1042 00:59:16,200 --> 00:59:19,320 inflation, you know, printing our own currency to acquire more 1043 00:59:19,320 --> 00:59:21,440 Bitcoin. We didn't hear about free energy 1044 00:59:21,440 --> 00:59:24,040 for Bitcoin miners to incentivize hash rate. 1045 00:59:24,040 --> 00:59:28,680 We didn't hear about Bitcoin bonds or asking to be paid, paid 1046 00:59:28,680 --> 00:59:31,760 in Bitcoin for commodity. So, you know, these are all the 1047 00:59:31,760 --> 00:59:36,760 things I think we we think would make sense eventually, but this 1048 00:59:36,760 --> 00:59:40,840 is just where we're at, right? Like it's we're moving forward, 1049 00:59:40,840 --> 00:59:45,040 the vibe is shifting, but we're still so, so, so early. 1050 00:59:46,600 --> 00:59:50,880 Yeah, agreed. And it was funny to see the 1051 00:59:50,880 --> 00:59:54,520 reaction both among people in the conference and people on 1052 00:59:54,520 --> 00:59:57,240 Twitter about the speech. Because I wear two hats, you 1053 00:59:57,240 --> 01:00:00,600 know, I wear one hat as a bitcoiner and I wear another hat 1054 01:00:00,600 --> 01:00:02,840 as a policy and political professional and. 1055 01:00:03,280 --> 01:00:06,360 My hat as a policy and political professional told me, like you 1056 01:00:06,360 --> 01:00:08,280 said, it was a 10 out of 10 speech. 1057 01:00:08,280 --> 01:00:13,800 From that perspective, he hit on everything that Bitcoiners 1058 01:00:13,800 --> 01:00:15,320 realistically could have asked for. 1059 01:00:15,320 --> 01:00:18,240 Of course there are the other things that you mentioned, your 1060 01:00:18,240 --> 01:00:23,080 Bitcoin bonds and those other policy initiatives, but you can 1061 01:00:23,080 --> 01:00:27,480 only open the Overton window so much without people wanting to 1062 01:00:27,480 --> 01:00:30,200 jam it shut in your face. And I think that's what we 1063 01:00:30,200 --> 01:00:34,600 successfully did last Saturday was we opened up the Overton 1064 01:00:34,600 --> 01:00:38,160 window pretty significantly. That starts to normalize the 1065 01:00:38,160 --> 01:00:42,040 idea of Bitcoin on the nation's balance sheet for people on the 1066 01:00:42,040 --> 01:00:44,520 right and the left. And it's a step by step, 1067 01:00:44,600 --> 01:00:48,000 iterative process that will take some time. 1068 01:00:48,000 --> 01:00:51,240 But you know, as we start to put Bitcoin on the balance sheet, 1069 01:00:51,240 --> 01:00:54,800 then that opens up the door to other discussions such as 1070 01:00:54,880 --> 01:00:57,880 Bitcoin bonds, Bitcoin is legal tender. 1071 01:00:58,120 --> 01:01:00,760 These things take time and they can't all be done at once. 1072 01:01:00,760 --> 01:01:05,240 And for people who were dissatisfied with the speech in 1073 01:01:05,320 --> 01:01:08,560 any way, I would just encourage them to look at it from that 1074 01:01:08,560 --> 01:01:13,760 perspective, recognize that we can't, you know, Donald Trump 1075 01:01:13,760 --> 01:01:17,440 can't do everything all at once. And this represents a huge 1076 01:01:17,440 --> 01:01:20,840 pendulum swing from where he was just a year ago, really, or 1077 01:01:20,840 --> 01:01:24,120 just, you know, five years ago when he said that Bitcoin is a 1078 01:01:24,120 --> 01:01:26,280 scam. And now he recognizes, oh, 1079 01:01:26,280 --> 01:01:28,880 Bitcoin is not a scam. In fact, it is potentially an 1080 01:01:28,880 --> 01:01:30,640 instrument of economic statecraft. 1081 01:01:30,640 --> 01:01:33,120 And orange peeling for everybody takes time. 1082 01:01:33,120 --> 01:01:36,400 And the fact that you have orange man embracing the orange 1083 01:01:36,400 --> 01:01:39,040 coin, I think is really promising for all of us. 1084 01:01:39,520 --> 01:01:42,600 Yeah. So what do you think is more 1085 01:01:42,600 --> 01:01:46,600 important, legal tender first or the strategic reserve assets 1086 01:01:46,600 --> 01:01:50,920 first? I think the strategic reserve 1087 01:01:50,920 --> 01:01:55,680 first legal tender, there are of course Bitcoin scaling issues, 1088 01:01:55,680 --> 01:01:58,920 which I think that we need to get our stuff together a little 1089 01:01:58,920 --> 01:02:01,120 bit more on the technical side with the Lightning Network 1090 01:02:01,680 --> 01:02:05,280 before a nation can feasibly adopt it as legal tender. 1091 01:02:06,040 --> 01:02:07,600 So I think that needs to happen 1st. 1092 01:02:07,600 --> 01:02:12,000 And making Bitcoin a strategic reserve asset really gives us 1093 01:02:12,040 --> 01:02:16,000 more time to work things out on the technical side, where making 1094 01:02:16,000 --> 01:02:18,800 it legal tender that's actually used frequently day in and day 1095 01:02:18,800 --> 01:02:23,480 out becomes more feasible a few years down the road if a country 1096 01:02:23,480 --> 01:02:25,760 wanted to go that route. Yeah. 1097 01:02:26,760 --> 01:02:32,760 And what do you think of could Bitcoin be a single issue voting 1098 01:02:32,760 --> 01:02:35,600 subject? I mean, it's it's on the at 1099 01:02:35,600 --> 01:02:37,960 least, you know, in the states, it's on the platform of the 1100 01:02:37,960 --> 01:02:40,240 Republicans. We see the Democrats, you know, 1101 01:02:40,240 --> 01:02:42,680 react or at least you know, they try. 1102 01:02:43,160 --> 01:02:46,840 But yeah, do you think it could be like a single issue voting 1103 01:02:46,840 --> 01:02:50,520 subject for for people or maybe if you look at other countries 1104 01:02:50,520 --> 01:02:54,520 where there are systems with, for example, more, more parties, 1105 01:02:54,520 --> 01:02:55,760 right. If there would be like a new 1106 01:02:55,760 --> 01:02:59,520 party that says, you know, my only goal is for my country to 1107 01:02:59,520 --> 01:03:02,480 start a strategic Bitcoin reserve, what do you think of 1108 01:03:02,480 --> 01:03:07,000 that? Yeah, I think Bitcoin for 1109 01:03:07,480 --> 01:03:10,960 potentially millions of Americans is a single issue 1110 01:03:10,960 --> 01:03:13,640 voting subject. I did some research earlier in 1111 01:03:13,640 --> 01:03:17,120 the year just about how many people own Bitcoin in digital 1112 01:03:17,120 --> 01:03:21,560 assets and how many people essentially turned the election 1113 01:03:21,560 --> 01:03:26,080 in 2020 in favor of Joe Biden. So just to get a little bit more 1114 01:03:26,080 --> 01:03:29,400 granular about politics here in the United States, President 1115 01:03:29,400 --> 01:03:33,120 Biden, he won the election in 2020 by really just 10s of 1116 01:03:33,120 --> 01:03:36,440 thousands of votes. It was just, you know, 10s of 1117 01:03:36,440 --> 01:03:38,960 thousands of votes in key swing states that handed him the 1118 01:03:38,960 --> 01:03:42,760 election. So there have been really 1119 01:03:42,760 --> 01:03:45,640 interesting polls out there that show in those exact same swing 1120 01:03:45,640 --> 01:03:51,080 states, there are millions of voters who say that Bitcoin and 1121 01:03:51,080 --> 01:03:54,240 digital assets for them is a make or break issue at the 1122 01:03:54,240 --> 01:03:57,120 polls. And so that's what Donald Trump 1123 01:03:57,240 --> 01:04:00,640 and before him, Vivek Ramaswamy and RFK intuited from the very 1124 01:04:00,640 --> 01:04:05,360 beginning was that this is a demographic that is just waiting 1125 01:04:05,360 --> 01:04:08,440 for representation that has nobody truly speaking for them 1126 01:04:09,200 --> 01:04:11,680 in the United States Congress or in the White House right now. 1127 01:04:11,680 --> 01:04:14,960 And so as a discerning political entrepreneur, he recognized 1128 01:04:15,040 --> 01:04:17,480 this. This voting demographic could 1129 01:04:17,480 --> 01:04:21,480 actually swing the election. That's why you also see the 1130 01:04:21,480 --> 01:04:24,280 emergence of what's called the Bitcoin Voter Project. 1131 01:04:24,280 --> 01:04:28,480 So the Bitcoin Voter Project is an organization here in the US 1132 01:04:28,840 --> 01:04:34,600 that is catalyzing that voting bloc and really helping it 1133 01:04:34,600 --> 01:04:39,120 receive political consciousness, achieve political consciousness 1134 01:04:39,120 --> 01:04:41,520 in a way where they can have an effect at the polls. 1135 01:04:41,520 --> 01:04:44,320 So I think definitely here in the United States, the Bitcoin 1136 01:04:44,320 --> 01:04:47,840 voter will be among the most powerful voting blocs in the 1137 01:04:47,840 --> 01:04:50,360 country going forward. And I think that trend is only 1138 01:04:50,360 --> 01:04:52,640 likely to extend to other countries as well. 1139 01:04:53,040 --> 01:04:56,600 Yeah, Yeah. I think it's a very interesting 1140 01:04:57,760 --> 01:05:02,400 development in the sense that as you, as you said, you know, 1141 01:05:02,720 --> 01:05:06,800 people want to be heard, they are into this thing, they 1142 01:05:06,800 --> 01:05:10,880 understand what it is or you know, to a certain degree. 1143 01:05:11,480 --> 01:05:15,200 And yeah, they they need representation. 1144 01:05:15,200 --> 01:05:18,720 I think, you know, if I don't know how many people, I think 1145 01:05:18,720 --> 01:05:20,640 that's an interesting question. By the way, in general, like how 1146 01:05:20,640 --> 01:05:25,000 many people fully understand Bitcoin? 1147 01:05:25,000 --> 01:05:26,800 Well, you never can fully understand it, right? 1148 01:05:26,800 --> 01:05:30,520 But let's say to the level at where we are talking about, 1149 01:05:32,240 --> 01:05:34,480 eventually that will be more people. 1150 01:05:35,200 --> 01:05:39,040 And because that rabbit hole is so deep and touches all these 1151 01:05:39,040 --> 01:05:44,120 different dimensions, they can smell out the bullshit about 1152 01:05:44,120 --> 01:05:48,360 these dimensions from, you know, whatever party political parties 1153 01:05:48,360 --> 01:05:51,440 there are in their country, right? 1154 01:05:51,440 --> 01:05:55,720 So I think actually it will become more difficult for people 1155 01:05:55,720 --> 01:06:00,880 who fully understand Bitcoin to fold, to vote for anyone and who 1156 01:06:00,880 --> 01:06:04,240 doesn't understand it. I agree. 1157 01:06:04,640 --> 01:06:06,480 I agree. And this goes back to our 1158 01:06:06,480 --> 01:06:09,880 discussion earlier about what is the future of Bitcoin as a 1159 01:06:09,880 --> 01:06:11,720 partisan issue in the United States. 1160 01:06:12,040 --> 01:06:15,200 I think the future is bipartisan for that exact reason. 1161 01:06:15,680 --> 01:06:18,480 More and more, you're going to see people incorporate Bitcoin 1162 01:06:18,480 --> 01:06:21,680 as a part of their financial portfolio in the same way that 1163 01:06:21,680 --> 01:06:25,000 Golden Bonds is a fixture of people's financial portfolios 1164 01:06:25,000 --> 01:06:27,280 today. And, you know, imagine if you 1165 01:06:27,280 --> 01:06:30,920 had a politician out there who is trying to crack down on gold 1166 01:06:30,960 --> 01:06:35,200 or trying to crack down on bonds or trying to make it illegal for 1167 01:06:35,200 --> 01:06:38,200 people to own, you know, a certain percentage of US 1168 01:06:38,200 --> 01:06:40,520 equities. It would be a good point. 1169 01:06:40,520 --> 01:06:43,120 Committing political suicide. Yeah. 1170 01:06:43,240 --> 01:06:45,480 And at that point that that is the future. 1171 01:06:45,480 --> 01:06:49,000 I think as Bitcoin becomes a fixture of financial portfolios, 1172 01:06:49,320 --> 01:06:52,120 it will have to be bipartisan. And any politician who wars 1173 01:06:52,120 --> 01:06:55,040 against it, like Elizabeth Warren, just shooting themselves 1174 01:06:55,040 --> 01:06:57,600 in the foot. Yeah, well, it is that right. 1175 01:06:57,600 --> 01:07:02,240 They have to, you know, I, I like it that also, you know, 1176 01:07:02,240 --> 01:07:06,320 some critics say like, oh, Bitcoin goes to the right or, 1177 01:07:06,320 --> 01:07:08,280 you know, whatever, because Trump endorses it. 1178 01:07:08,280 --> 01:07:10,720 But it's the other way around. They have to come to Bitcoin. 1179 01:07:10,720 --> 01:07:13,280 I think exactly. You know, it's, it's one of the 1180 01:07:13,280 --> 01:07:15,400 top reasons, the one you just mentioned. 1181 01:07:15,440 --> 01:07:19,280 It's it's it's going to be a more important part of the 1182 01:07:19,280 --> 01:07:24,760 portfolio of more people. So yeah, if an anti Bitcoin 1183 01:07:24,880 --> 01:07:28,000 politician is talking to you, then you're just going to ignore 1184 01:07:28,000 --> 01:07:31,120 them and not listen to anything else that they are saying, 1185 01:07:31,120 --> 01:07:33,720 right. So they have to come to Bitcoin 1186 01:07:33,720 --> 01:07:36,880 and Bitcoin is for anyone again, you know, as we as we mentioned, 1187 01:07:37,760 --> 01:07:43,080 so I also see it as you know, yeah, just politicians bending 1188 01:07:43,080 --> 01:07:48,200 the knee in a sense that this is this is definitely here to stay. 1189 01:07:48,600 --> 01:07:51,800 That's that's kind of like the the conclusion, I think. 1190 01:07:53,120 --> 01:07:56,680 I agree. I, I think Bitcoin right now is 1191 01:07:56,680 --> 01:07:59,880 coded right. But I think that's temporary for 1192 01:07:59,880 --> 01:08:01,840 all the reasons that you just just mentioned. 1193 01:08:02,280 --> 01:08:05,080 You know, we saw after the Bitcoin conference, some people 1194 01:08:05,080 --> 01:08:08,080 complain that it was majority Republicans who spoke. 1195 01:08:08,080 --> 01:08:11,080 And my response to that is, well, you can get Democrat 1196 01:08:11,080 --> 01:08:13,640 friends on board too, but they really haven't been coming 1197 01:08:13,640 --> 01:08:15,760 around to this idea. But pretty soon they will be 1198 01:08:15,760 --> 01:08:20,160 forced to because Bitcoin will be ubiquitous, so many people 1199 01:08:20,160 --> 01:08:21,840 will own it on right and the left. 1200 01:08:21,840 --> 01:08:25,359 Even now, according to Coinbase's own own data, there's 1201 01:08:25,359 --> 01:08:29,160 actually more people on the left who own Bitcoin than people on 1202 01:08:29,160 --> 01:08:30,760 the right. More Democrats own it than 1203 01:08:30,760 --> 01:08:32,800 Republicans. I think Elizabeth Warren and 1204 01:08:32,800 --> 01:08:34,760 Gary Gensler dismissed the memo on that one. 1205 01:08:36,080 --> 01:08:38,359 Yeah, which I think with Gensler is just interesting. 1206 01:08:38,359 --> 01:08:41,359 I watched his lecture, the MIT lecture, which I think was 1207 01:08:41,359 --> 01:08:43,840 great. So I don't know, something 1208 01:08:43,840 --> 01:08:47,560 something was promised to him perhaps for for him to behave 1209 01:08:47,560 --> 01:08:52,160 like, like he's behaving, you know, maybe a future treasury 1210 01:08:52,200 --> 01:08:53,960 position or something or something like that. 1211 01:08:53,960 --> 01:08:57,439 But yeah, I I agree. Do you do you think that because 1212 01:08:57,439 --> 01:09:01,200 they have to come to Bitcoin and they also think in a sense 1213 01:09:01,200 --> 01:09:03,720 Bitcoin is also somewhat of an equalizer, right? 1214 01:09:03,720 --> 01:09:07,000 Like you can be like, oh, I'm pro Bitcoin, but you know, like 1215 01:09:07,000 --> 01:09:09,800 I see Trump saying I'm pro Bitcoin, but I don't, I don't 1216 01:09:09,800 --> 01:09:11,279 think he actually understands it. 1217 01:09:11,359 --> 01:09:16,680 You know, maybe as you know, the individual person, he does not 1218 01:09:16,680 --> 01:09:19,560 necessarily have to understand it as long as the people around 1219 01:09:19,560 --> 01:09:22,680 him, you know, who are helping create the policies actually 1220 01:09:23,560 --> 01:09:26,800 understand that, you know, maybe this is going to be like one, 1221 01:09:27,200 --> 01:09:32,520 one of the topics that is going to yeah, kind of show what the 1222 01:09:32,520 --> 01:09:35,359 politicians and the policymakers are, are made of. 1223 01:09:35,359 --> 01:09:38,399 Just because Bitcoin is so transparent and you can verify 1224 01:09:39,359 --> 01:09:41,040 anything, right? It's it's there. 1225 01:09:41,040 --> 01:09:44,720 There's nothing obscure about it in my opinion. 1226 01:09:44,720 --> 01:09:48,160 So it's either when you say like, I'm pro Bitcoin, you have 1227 01:09:48,160 --> 01:09:50,920 to do the work, walk the talk, right? 1228 01:09:50,920 --> 01:09:53,880 You cannot be pro Bitcoin on paper. 1229 01:09:54,080 --> 01:09:57,880 You have to actually do something with it or about it. 1230 01:10:00,640 --> 01:10:03,920 Yeah, that's true. I I am very bullish, though, on 1231 01:10:03,920 --> 01:10:08,600 Donald Trump embracing Bitcoin fully, not only because of his 1232 01:10:08,600 --> 01:10:11,880 public statements, but because of those in his inner circle. 1233 01:10:11,880 --> 01:10:17,280 So Vivek Ramaswamy is beloved by Donald Trump, which is 1234 01:10:17,280 --> 01:10:21,440 fascinating because Vivek himself is a very charismatic 1235 01:10:21,440 --> 01:10:23,480 personality. And you know, one might think 1236 01:10:23,480 --> 01:10:27,240 that a charismatic person might see another charismatic person 1237 01:10:27,240 --> 01:10:29,520 as someone they don't want to compete with and some of them 1238 01:10:29,520 --> 01:10:31,240 that they would try to shut out, but it's been quite the 1239 01:10:31,240 --> 01:10:33,760 opposite. And so it was actually Vivac 1240 01:10:33,760 --> 01:10:38,400 that heavily influenced Donald Trump to 1st oppose CBD CS. 1241 01:10:38,400 --> 01:10:42,640 And I think that was the gateway drug to Donald Trump accepting 1242 01:10:42,640 --> 01:10:45,560 Bitcoin. But even outside of Vivac, you 1243 01:10:45,560 --> 01:10:48,640 have Baron Trump. I don't think people talk about 1244 01:10:48,640 --> 01:10:51,200 Baron enough. Baron is the six foot seven 1245 01:10:51,200 --> 01:10:57,520 youngest son of Donald Trump and he is very pro crypto and very 1246 01:10:57,520 --> 01:11:02,720 much supportive of digital assets from from what it appears 1247 01:11:02,840 --> 01:11:04,720 from some of the activity we see on Twitter. 1248 01:11:05,360 --> 01:11:09,240 And then you have Donald Trump junior, who when we were at the 1249 01:11:09,240 --> 01:11:12,040 Bitcoin conference, he was actually there with Carl 1250 01:11:12,040 --> 01:11:15,000 Tuckerson doing events that were adjacent to Bitcoin. 1251 01:11:15,000 --> 01:11:18,160 So you have a lot of people in Trump's inner circle who really 1252 01:11:18,160 --> 01:11:22,920 seemed to embrace Bitcoin and digital assets and are very 1253 01:11:22,920 --> 01:11:26,080 supportive of the idea. And so Donald Trump himself, he 1254 01:11:26,080 --> 01:11:29,880 gets maligned in the media and oftentimes portrayed as someone 1255 01:11:29,880 --> 01:11:32,600 who's not intelligent. But I mean, for anyone who knows 1256 01:11:32,680 --> 01:11:37,520 that the guy is sharp, he's hilarious, and he has the shtick 1257 01:11:37,520 --> 01:11:39,160 of a professional wrestling promoter. 1258 01:11:39,160 --> 01:11:42,360 And I think people see that sometimes and dismiss the fact 1259 01:11:42,360 --> 01:11:45,000 that he has created a multi billion dollar business. 1260 01:11:45,000 --> 01:11:49,440 He is a savant level marketer and he understands business and 1261 01:11:49,440 --> 01:11:51,840 finance. And so, you know, does he 1262 01:11:51,840 --> 01:11:56,640 understand Bitcoin like Alex Gladstein does or safety and 1263 01:11:56,640 --> 01:11:59,360 Amis or Pierre Bouchard does? No, probably not because he's 1264 01:11:59,360 --> 01:12:01,920 got a lot of other pressing issues on his mind. 1265 01:12:01,920 --> 01:12:06,080 But I do think that Donald Trump, if he is not completely 1266 01:12:06,080 --> 01:12:08,440 orange peeled at this point, it's just a matter of time 1267 01:12:08,720 --> 01:12:13,240 before he recognizes the value of Bitcoin to investors across 1268 01:12:13,240 --> 01:12:17,000 the world. So I think that he will, He is 1269 01:12:17,000 --> 01:12:20,040 in the process of being orange peeled, not only for political 1270 01:12:20,040 --> 01:12:23,400 reasons, but for authentic reasons as well in the near 1271 01:12:23,400 --> 01:12:28,080 future. Yeah, well, I'm, I'm thinking 1272 01:12:28,080 --> 01:12:33,120 about hearing him say, you know, our stack is huge, yours is tiny 1273 01:12:33,400 --> 01:12:35,280 or something like that, something like that. 1274 01:12:35,280 --> 01:12:37,840 But yeah, you said Carl, Carl Tuckerson. 1275 01:12:38,120 --> 01:12:40,240 I thought it was funny. Tucker Carlson. 1276 01:12:40,240 --> 01:12:44,280 Yeah, but Tucker Carlson anyway. No, no, but I, I, I like what 1277 01:12:44,280 --> 01:12:46,480 you said. I think, you know, I think Trump 1278 01:12:46,480 --> 01:12:49,480 is a very polarizing figure. I still don't know what I think 1279 01:12:49,480 --> 01:12:51,320 of him. But yeah, as you said, he is 1280 01:12:51,320 --> 01:12:53,520 from the Ric Flair era also, right? 1281 01:12:53,520 --> 01:12:57,080 He looks like a WWE spokesperson. 1282 01:12:59,440 --> 01:13:05,680 But yeah, eventually I think if this election can open up that 1283 01:13:05,680 --> 01:13:10,660 Overton window enough, you have the Democrats adopting quote UN 1284 01:13:10,660 --> 01:13:16,240 quote adopting it, you know, eventually not not following up 1285 01:13:16,240 --> 01:13:19,280 with any promises or doing a complete 180. 1286 01:13:19,280 --> 01:13:22,400 I think at this point would be kind of like a career suicide. 1287 01:13:23,720 --> 01:13:28,400 So even if the Democrats would adopt Bitcoin now, perhaps if 1288 01:13:28,400 --> 01:13:32,800 they win the election, turning around and and not doing 1289 01:13:32,800 --> 01:13:36,800 anything that they are perhaps going to promise, I think is 1290 01:13:37,440 --> 01:13:39,160 going to be a very bad look, right. 1291 01:13:39,160 --> 01:13:44,280 So in that sense, we are already pretty far in the terms of, 1292 01:13:44,440 --> 01:13:45,920 well, let's stick with the vibe shift. 1293 01:13:45,920 --> 01:13:50,520 But yeah. Yeah, I agree. 1294 01:13:50,960 --> 01:13:54,360 One thing that stuck out in Trump's speech was when he said 1295 01:13:54,360 --> 01:13:56,840 that he would fire Gary Gensler on day one. 1296 01:13:57,280 --> 01:14:02,280 And the whole crowd got off their feet and just erupted in 1297 01:14:02,400 --> 01:14:04,680 in applause. And then Donald Trump said, wow, 1298 01:14:04,680 --> 01:14:06,800 I didn't realize he was that unpopular and said, let's do 1299 01:14:06,800 --> 01:14:09,240 this again. I will fire Gary Gunzer on day 1300 01:14:09,240 --> 01:14:11,040 one. And everyone got up again and 1301 01:14:11,040 --> 01:14:14,680 started clapping. You know that it's hard to under 1302 01:14:14,680 --> 01:14:18,920 score just how unprecedented it is in American politics to have 1303 01:14:18,920 --> 01:14:22,960 an SESEC chair. Who is that political who has 1304 01:14:22,960 --> 01:14:28,520 brought so much just agony and pain to the industry like Gary 1305 01:14:28,520 --> 01:14:32,040 Gensler has? And so even if there were to be 1306 01:14:32,040 --> 01:14:36,080 a Kamala Harris presidency, I wonder if Gary Gensler's 1307 01:14:36,080 --> 01:14:40,280 political days are numbered because the SEC chair of an 1308 01:14:40,280 --> 01:14:44,000 administration should be one of the most anodyne, inoffensive 1309 01:14:44,080 --> 01:14:46,440 appointments out there. But the fact that he might be a 1310 01:14:46,440 --> 01:14:49,800 political liability to Kamala Harris at this point is 1311 01:14:49,800 --> 01:14:52,480 something that Democrats are paying attention to, and he is 1312 01:14:52,480 --> 01:14:56,240 clearly out over his skis. He miscalculated here, as did 1313 01:14:56,240 --> 01:14:59,240 Elizabeth Warren, and there could be real repercussions for 1314 01:14:59,240 --> 01:15:01,520 that. Whether or not he would stay in 1315 01:15:01,520 --> 01:15:04,160 a future Democratic administration, I think he's a 1316 01:15:04,160 --> 01:15:07,640 question just because he's become such a political burden 1317 01:15:07,640 --> 01:15:11,680 to the current administration. Yeah, it also made me think of a 1318 01:15:11,680 --> 01:15:13,680 tweet. I think it was from Eric 1319 01:15:13,920 --> 01:15:17,080 Belkunis or, or James Seyfar, you know, the guys from 1320 01:15:17,320 --> 01:15:24,560 Bloomberg who reported on the Bitcoin ETF launches and one of 1321 01:15:24,560 --> 01:15:30,920 them tweeted like, I've never seen any crowd or a group of 1322 01:15:30,920 --> 01:15:35,160 people follow the launch of an ETF this closely. 1323 01:15:35,160 --> 01:15:37,920 You know, like I think they both gained hundreds of thousands of 1324 01:15:37,920 --> 01:15:40,560 followers right by by their reporting. 1325 01:15:40,880 --> 01:15:44,120 And I think, you know, this, this Gensler example is the same 1326 01:15:44,120 --> 01:15:46,680 there. This is a very informed crowd, 1327 01:15:47,120 --> 01:15:51,600 you know, way more informed than lots of other people on other 1328 01:15:51,600 --> 01:15:56,640 issues, you know, and so I I just find that just really 1329 01:15:56,640 --> 01:15:58,480 interesting. You saw Trump's face where he 1330 01:15:58,480 --> 01:16:00,600 was like, what? Like, is this this thing? 1331 01:16:00,600 --> 01:16:03,880 OK, yeah, you know, I'm going to say it again, but I think I 1332 01:16:03,880 --> 01:16:08,160 think that's also a really interesting signal just from 1333 01:16:08,160 --> 01:16:11,120 Bitcoin. You know, the Bitcoin adopters 1334 01:16:11,120 --> 01:16:17,400 in general, like how up to date they are with what's going on 1335 01:16:17,400 --> 01:16:20,960 and that they have insights on it and opinions on it and 1336 01:16:20,960 --> 01:16:23,360 they're not afraid to to share them. 1337 01:16:23,360 --> 01:16:29,360 So, you know, in the same way that perhaps Bitcoin could be an 1338 01:16:29,360 --> 01:16:32,480 accountability tool for Fiat money, it's kind of the same as 1339 01:16:32,480 --> 01:16:36,480 like Bitcoiners could be an accountability tool for for the 1340 01:16:36,480 --> 01:16:38,240 politicians. I think. 1341 01:16:38,240 --> 01:16:41,400 I think those two examples are kind of kind of kind of show 1342 01:16:41,400 --> 01:16:42,120 that. Yeah. 1343 01:16:43,280 --> 01:16:47,920 I still wanted to ask you kind of a different subject, but you 1344 01:16:47,920 --> 01:16:49,280 mentioned you were also a millennial. 1345 01:16:49,600 --> 01:16:52,480 I'd love to know how you experienced talking to our 1346 01:16:52,480 --> 01:16:55,120 fellow millennials about Bitcoin. 1347 01:16:56,680 --> 01:16:59,600 Yeah, different reactions depending on where they are 1348 01:16:59,600 --> 01:17:02,880 politically. When I talk to Democrats who are 1349 01:17:02,880 --> 01:17:06,360 our age about Bitcoin, the automatic response that has been 1350 01:17:06,360 --> 01:17:09,240 programmed into their brains by Elizabeth Warren is, oh, isn't 1351 01:17:09,240 --> 01:17:13,480 it terrible for the environment? And at that point, I mean, I 1352 01:17:13,480 --> 01:17:17,320 could go on and on about actually the environmental 1353 01:17:17,320 --> 01:17:20,720 benefits of Bitcoin mining, but whenever I'm in a social 1354 01:17:20,720 --> 01:17:23,880 situation, I try, I try not to talk about Bitcoin because it's 1355 01:17:23,880 --> 01:17:26,600 so hard for me to stop talking about it, but it gives me an 1356 01:17:26,600 --> 01:17:29,240 opportunity to really change their minds on the subject. 1357 01:17:30,600 --> 01:17:34,600 So just real quickly on that. So I work for Riot Platforms, a 1358 01:17:34,600 --> 01:17:37,840 Bitcoin miner, and what a lot of people don't recognize is that 1359 01:17:37,920 --> 01:17:43,040 Bitcoin miners actually allow clean energy projects to be 1360 01:17:43,040 --> 01:17:48,120 bootstrapped because renewable energy often times can't find a 1361 01:17:48,120 --> 01:17:50,640 buyer. Because often times the sun is 1362 01:17:50,640 --> 01:17:53,600 shining during hours of the day where no one needs energy, or 1363 01:17:53,600 --> 01:17:55,920 the wind is blowing at certain hours of the day where no one 1364 01:17:55,920 --> 01:17:57,840 needs energy. And often times that energy goes 1365 01:17:57,840 --> 01:18:00,240 to waste. But Bitcoin miners completely 1366 01:18:00,240 --> 01:18:03,720 change the equation where we can always use energy, and we'll 1367 01:18:03,720 --> 01:18:06,840 always buy energy if it's cheap and if it's abundant. 1368 01:18:07,280 --> 01:18:10,600 And so in that sense, Bitcoin mining actually makes a lot of 1369 01:18:10,600 --> 01:18:14,040 clean energy projects, not only in the US but developing regions 1370 01:18:14,040 --> 01:18:16,480 like Africa. It makes these projects 1371 01:18:16,560 --> 01:18:19,000 economically viable in a way that they wouldn't be without 1372 01:18:19,000 --> 01:18:21,800 Bitcoin mining. So that's an interesting way to 1373 01:18:21,920 --> 01:18:24,720 sort of subvert their understanding of what Bitcoin 1374 01:18:24,720 --> 01:18:26,880 is. You know, when I talk to people 1375 01:18:26,880 --> 01:18:30,200 who identify as Republican, there's a heavy libertarian 1376 01:18:30,200 --> 01:18:32,760 strain in the United States that even if they don't own Bitcoin, 1377 01:18:32,760 --> 01:18:35,680 they like the idea of it, right? It reminds me of that scene from 1378 01:18:35,680 --> 01:18:40,560 Zoolander when he says, I like Sting's music. 1379 01:18:40,680 --> 01:18:42,800 I've never really listened to it, but I like the fact that 1380 01:18:42,800 --> 01:18:45,560 he's making it. I think that's how a lot of 1381 01:18:45,560 --> 01:18:49,360 people who are libertarian in the US feel about Bitcoin. 1382 01:18:49,360 --> 01:18:51,080 They might not own it themselves, but they love the 1383 01:18:51,080 --> 01:18:55,000 idea that there's a form of money out there that puts a 1384 01:18:55,000 --> 01:18:59,560 check on federal money printing and allows people to be their 1385 01:18:59,560 --> 01:19:02,200 own bank. And so I get different reactions 1386 01:19:03,040 --> 01:19:06,080 depending on where people stand on the on which side of the 1387 01:19:06,080 --> 01:19:08,360 aisle they're on. You know, it's a lot harder 1388 01:19:08,360 --> 01:19:11,040 talking to boomers about Bitcoin, but it's just so hard 1389 01:19:11,040 --> 01:19:13,320 for them to wrap their minds around just because they've 1390 01:19:13,320 --> 01:19:15,480 lived in Fiat currency world for so long. 1391 01:19:15,840 --> 01:19:17,840 But millennials and Gen. Z, Gen. 1392 01:19:17,840 --> 01:19:19,920 Z seems to get it just right off the bat. 1393 01:19:21,000 --> 01:19:23,440 They seem to be even more digitally native than us. 1394 01:19:23,440 --> 01:19:28,000 And so grasping the concepts behind Bitcoin is appears to be 1395 01:19:28,000 --> 01:19:31,080 much less challenging for them. Yeah. 1396 01:19:31,080 --> 01:19:34,160 What do you, what do you think is the main thing that holds 1397 01:19:34,160 --> 01:19:37,200 millennials back? Like, of course, you know, this 1398 01:19:37,200 --> 01:19:38,800 is called Bitcoin for millennials. 1399 01:19:38,800 --> 01:19:43,400 I think, you know, we are going to be in power. 1400 01:19:43,400 --> 01:19:47,520 We are going to inherit, you know, if there is any, you know, 1401 01:19:47,520 --> 01:19:50,160 from our parents, this is the great wealth transfer. 1402 01:19:50,160 --> 01:19:53,200 We never were taught what is money. 1403 01:19:53,200 --> 01:19:56,680 We are participating in, you know, this investing game that 1404 01:19:56,680 --> 01:19:59,960 we can never win again. Everything we think about with 1405 01:19:59,960 --> 01:20:04,440 regards to, you know, the path of your life from, you know, 1406 01:20:04,560 --> 01:20:07,120 going to college, buying a house, starting a family and 1407 01:20:07,120 --> 01:20:08,400 like, etcetera, all these things. 1408 01:20:10,040 --> 01:20:13,160 It was true for our parents, but it's not necessarily true for us 1409 01:20:13,240 --> 01:20:14,880 anymore, right? There's so many. 1410 01:20:15,920 --> 01:20:19,360 Clear things, at least to me that I think millennials should 1411 01:20:19,360 --> 01:20:23,360 be aware about what what's like one of these things that that 1412 01:20:23,360 --> 01:20:27,560 you come across a lot or or is like a big talking point for you 1413 01:20:27,560 --> 01:20:32,520 also with regards to to Bitcoin. And just helping people 1414 01:20:32,560 --> 01:20:37,160 understand Bitcoin. Yeah, or like, why should you 1415 01:20:37,160 --> 01:20:40,120 study this, right? Like for me, it's this is the 1416 01:20:40,120 --> 01:20:42,720 most important thing you should spend your time on at least 1417 01:20:42,720 --> 01:20:44,600 study. You should also spend time on 1418 01:20:44,600 --> 01:20:46,680 other things. But, you know, this is the most 1419 01:20:46,680 --> 01:20:49,320 important technological discovery you should study. 1420 01:20:49,760 --> 01:20:53,600 I think, you know, when I talk to millennials, but they don't 1421 01:20:53,600 --> 01:20:56,160 always get that. Yeah. 1422 01:20:56,200 --> 01:20:58,200 And I was just wondering what what do you think is like the 1423 01:20:58,200 --> 01:21:01,760 main thing holding them back or or what they should learn about? 1424 01:21:02,680 --> 01:21:06,520 Yeah, I think the main thing holding them back is maybe some 1425 01:21:06,520 --> 01:21:11,920 of the cultural stigma around Bitcoin Bros or crypto Bros that 1426 01:21:11,920 --> 01:21:16,000 needs to be dismantled because those Bitcoin Bros are are doing 1427 01:21:16,000 --> 01:21:18,120 well for themselves. You know, a lot of them are. 1428 01:21:18,520 --> 01:21:23,360 And so I think more people are becoming more sympathetic to the 1429 01:21:23,360 --> 01:21:27,040 idea of Bitcoin because millennials are recognizing 1430 01:21:27,040 --> 01:21:29,080 everything that you just mentioned, that it's so much 1431 01:21:29,080 --> 01:21:31,920 harder for us to buy a house. It seems to be so much harder 1432 01:21:31,920 --> 01:21:34,040 for us to save. It seems to be so much harder 1433 01:21:34,040 --> 01:21:37,400 for us to just achieve those life milestones that seem to 1434 01:21:37,400 --> 01:21:39,400 come very easily for our parents, Right. 1435 01:21:39,800 --> 01:21:45,360 And the wisest among our generation are looking for the 1436 01:21:45,360 --> 01:21:48,040 why behind that. They're trying to dig deeper. 1437 01:21:48,040 --> 01:21:51,360 And when they do, they recognize that the problem at least that 1438 01:21:51,360 --> 01:21:55,440 we're facing most acutely right now, the problem is inflation, 1439 01:21:55,600 --> 01:21:57,360 right? And when you recognize that the 1440 01:21:57,360 --> 01:21:59,520 problem is inflation, you look for root causes. 1441 01:21:59,880 --> 01:22:02,840 And when you find the root causes, you find two things, 1442 01:22:02,840 --> 01:22:07,520 Federal Reserve and the US Congress, with the common factor 1443 01:22:07,520 --> 01:22:11,000 being either money printing or reckless spending. 1444 01:22:11,560 --> 01:22:15,760 And at that point, people are more open to the idea of Bitcoin 1445 01:22:15,760 --> 01:22:19,440 than ever before, which makes me very bullish on our generation 1446 01:22:19,560 --> 01:22:22,400 when it comes to Bitcoin adoption because we're all 1447 01:22:22,400 --> 01:22:25,240 looking for some kind of refuge against inflation. 1448 01:22:25,240 --> 01:22:28,160 Historically, that refuge has been owning a home. 1449 01:22:28,520 --> 01:22:32,440 But home ownership is so hard for people our age that they're 1450 01:22:32,440 --> 01:22:35,960 turning to alternative sources. And I in my opinion, one of the 1451 01:22:35,960 --> 01:22:39,840 best sources could be Bitcoin, just given its price performance 1452 01:22:39,840 --> 01:22:43,240 since its inception and where it appears to be heading from here. 1453 01:22:44,640 --> 01:22:48,200 Yeah, yeah, great point. I, I, I definitely agree. 1454 01:22:48,600 --> 01:22:51,040 I wanted to ask you two last questions. 1455 01:22:51,720 --> 01:22:56,360 The first one is to circle back to how you discovered Bitcoin, 1456 01:22:56,960 --> 01:22:59,640 watching or first heard about it, you know, watching Conan 1457 01:22:59,640 --> 01:23:02,520 O'Brien. And I think you said, well, they 1458 01:23:02,520 --> 01:23:05,520 were making a joke about it. So the joke, you know, must have 1459 01:23:05,520 --> 01:23:09,160 been legit or true. You know, Bitcoin is not 1460 01:23:09,160 --> 01:23:12,640 something to pay attention to, but you also mentioned, you 1461 01:23:12,640 --> 01:23:17,600 know, Bitcoin really changed your your views in some ways or 1462 01:23:17,600 --> 01:23:21,280 your worldview. How do you look back at kind of 1463 01:23:21,280 --> 01:23:25,800 like believing what the TV said and not paying attention to kind 1464 01:23:25,800 --> 01:23:27,120 of like how you look at the world now? 1465 01:23:28,080 --> 01:23:31,720 Yeah, So I can't remember the specific joke that I heard on 1466 01:23:31,720 --> 01:23:35,960 Conan O'Brien, but the the theme of the joke was that they were 1467 01:23:35,960 --> 01:23:39,120 portraying Bitcoin as Internet funny money, just kind of this 1468 01:23:39,120 --> 01:23:43,040 magical invention made by computer nerds that didn't have 1469 01:23:43,040 --> 01:23:48,880 any underlying value, which makes sense that TV often 1470 01:23:48,880 --> 01:23:51,440 maligns Bitcoin when Bitcoin is down bad. 1471 01:23:51,440 --> 01:23:57,960 I actually see, you know, news companies and publications like 1472 01:23:57,960 --> 01:24:01,000 the New York Times or Wall Street Journal bagging on 1473 01:24:01,000 --> 01:24:03,840 Bitcoin as a good bottom signal. It's probably a sign that, you 1474 01:24:03,840 --> 01:24:06,240 know, the bear market is far advanced. 1475 01:24:06,240 --> 01:24:09,040 And if mainstream media's pick you up on the fact that, you 1476 01:24:09,040 --> 01:24:12,120 know, Bitcoins doing bad, it's probably a good sign that the 1477 01:24:12,120 --> 01:24:15,880 reversal is approaching. So if that was my first 1478 01:24:15,960 --> 01:24:19,240 introduction to Bitcoin and how it changed my views on society, 1479 01:24:20,200 --> 01:24:23,280 Bitcoin in a healthy way, I think just makes you more 1480 01:24:23,280 --> 01:24:27,320 skeptical of everything. People who live in Fiat world 1481 01:24:27,760 --> 01:24:30,840 are also very prone to Fiat news. 1482 01:24:30,880 --> 01:24:33,760 And by Fiat news, I mean essentially fake. 1483 01:24:34,480 --> 01:24:39,640 I mean corporate media that has a very clear agenda to pad their 1484 01:24:39,640 --> 01:24:42,360 own pockets. And so they'll push out 1485 01:24:42,360 --> 01:24:46,480 narratives that are good for their bottom line, but possibly 1486 01:24:46,480 --> 01:24:52,040 not good for society as a whole. And when you realize that Fiat 1487 01:24:52,040 --> 01:24:57,520 currency has much in common with Fiat news, it just makes you 1488 01:24:57,520 --> 01:25:01,360 more skeptical of everything. And so in a healthy way, I think 1489 01:25:01,360 --> 01:25:05,400 Bitcoin made me question more. It made me more skeptical, but 1490 01:25:05,400 --> 01:25:09,320 it also encouraged me to do my own investigations and just not 1491 01:25:09,320 --> 01:25:14,800 to take things at face value. But when I see a headline that 1492 01:25:14,800 --> 01:25:18,160 seems suspicious to me or the vibe seems OFT to do a little 1493 01:25:18,160 --> 01:25:22,160 bit more digging on my own. In the same way that when people 1494 01:25:22,240 --> 01:25:25,400 recognize that their savings are eroding with time, they try to 1495 01:25:25,400 --> 01:25:27,600 do a little bit more digging and they recognize that there's 1496 01:25:27,600 --> 01:25:30,360 actually A cause behind that. And it's our monetary policy in 1497 01:25:30,360 --> 01:25:34,360 the United States in large part. And so the same way that Bitcoin 1498 01:25:34,360 --> 01:25:38,360 encourages you to dig deeper on money, I think it helps people 1499 01:25:38,360 --> 01:25:42,000 who embrace the idea of Bitcoin to take that same model and dig 1500 01:25:42,000 --> 01:25:44,720 deeper in all areas of life. You know, whether it be news, 1501 01:25:44,720 --> 01:25:48,600 politics, wherever it may be, it just it encourages people to 1502 01:25:48,600 --> 01:25:51,720 take more responsibility for their life and not to be 1503 01:25:51,720 --> 01:25:56,320 programmed by institutions that are bigger than them and might 1504 01:25:56,320 --> 01:25:57,840 not have their best interests at heart. 1505 01:26:00,120 --> 01:26:02,960 Yeah, you just gave me a thought and I tweeted it. 1506 01:26:04,720 --> 01:26:08,200 Nice. But it's like Bitcoin enhances 1507 01:26:08,200 --> 01:26:11,680 your optimism and makes you skeptical of anything that 1508 01:26:11,680 --> 01:26:15,920 threatens that optimism. That's what that's that's what 1509 01:26:15,920 --> 01:26:19,360 that made me think and which is mostly coming from the Fiat 1510 01:26:19,360 --> 01:26:22,440 money world, right? That's just it. 1511 01:26:22,640 --> 01:26:27,880 Because who wouldn't want to build stuff and contribute to 1512 01:26:27,880 --> 01:26:31,240 stuff, right? Like just this is one of my 1513 01:26:31,240 --> 01:26:33,280 biggest insights. It's like, do you want to be a 1514 01:26:33,280 --> 01:26:36,640 consumer or a builder, like a contributor, right? 1515 01:26:36,640 --> 01:26:41,520 Like, do you want to Yeah, do you want to do things or yeah, I 1516 01:26:41,560 --> 01:26:43,400 don't know. It's just it's it's it's it's 1517 01:26:43,480 --> 01:26:46,720 it's maybe it's a red blue pill choice kind of matrix thing, 1518 01:26:46,720 --> 01:26:48,880 right? Like do do I want to? 1519 01:26:48,960 --> 01:26:52,760 Yeah, as you said, like take ownership, try to be more 1520 01:26:52,760 --> 01:26:56,920 sovereign to whatever degree is is good for you, right. 1521 01:26:56,920 --> 01:27:01,520 But at least stop outsourcing lots of responsibilities like 1522 01:27:01,520 --> 01:27:04,440 you do now. That is like peak Fiat money 1523 01:27:04,800 --> 01:27:07,120 worlds. So start thinking for yourself, 1524 01:27:07,120 --> 01:27:11,880 start doing things that you know, you find valuable and 1525 01:27:12,040 --> 01:27:15,960 contribute to, well, basically anything, but just stop 1526 01:27:15,960 --> 01:27:18,520 consuming. So yeah, something like that. 1527 01:27:18,720 --> 01:27:22,680 Yeah, it's fun. Oh man, I love how this is also, 1528 01:27:22,720 --> 01:27:24,640 you know, one of my motivations for podcast. 1529 01:27:24,640 --> 01:27:27,720 It's just like talking to so many different Bitcoiners also 1530 01:27:27,720 --> 01:27:32,840 helps me, you know, further structure my own thoughts around 1531 01:27:32,840 --> 01:27:34,200 this. So thanks for thanks for the 1532 01:27:34,200 --> 01:27:37,800 inspiration this. Is great. 1533 01:27:37,800 --> 01:27:41,080 It's fun. Yeah, OK, last question and I 1534 01:27:41,080 --> 01:27:44,840 ask everyone the same question, which is what is a core belief 1535 01:27:44,840 --> 01:27:53,800 you will never let go. The absolute truth exists, and I 1536 01:27:53,800 --> 01:27:56,800 think that's a core belief of Bitcoin as well. 1537 01:27:57,280 --> 01:28:01,680 Fiat world is supported by. Money printing is supported by 1538 01:28:03,000 --> 01:28:05,680 central bankers and politicians who are willing to mortgage the 1539 01:28:05,680 --> 01:28:09,720 future of generations that come after them for greedy people in 1540 01:28:09,720 --> 01:28:12,440 the present. And people are waking up to the 1541 01:28:12,440 --> 01:28:15,120 fact that there's so much of Fiat world that is fake and that 1542 01:28:15,120 --> 01:28:17,760 is not real. And I believe in absolute truth. 1543 01:28:17,760 --> 01:28:20,720 And that's what I love about Bitcoin is the absolute truth is 1544 01:28:20,720 --> 01:28:24,320 laid out there for everyone to see on the digital Ledger that 1545 01:28:24,320 --> 01:28:27,240 is Bitcoin. Just a quick anecdote with that. 1546 01:28:27,360 --> 01:28:31,640 I this was a real wake up moment for me when I was when I was in 1547 01:28:31,640 --> 01:28:35,560 Princeton, we were in a seminar and the professor asked how many 1548 01:28:35,560 --> 01:28:37,360 of you believe in absolute truth? 1549 01:28:37,360 --> 01:28:39,000 There's a class of about 15 of us. 1550 01:28:39,360 --> 01:28:42,040 It was only me and two other people in the room who raised 1551 01:28:42,040 --> 01:28:45,520 our hands that there is such thing as capital T truth. 1552 01:28:45,960 --> 01:28:49,200 And that was the biggest shocker to me because, you know, here 1553 01:28:49,200 --> 01:28:52,640 you supposedly have the future leaders of our country who think 1554 01:28:52,640 --> 01:28:56,160 that, you know, truth is fungible or truth can be molded 1555 01:28:56,160 --> 01:29:01,320 or truth is scarce or sorry that truth is manufactured by humans. 1556 01:29:01,320 --> 01:29:05,920 And I think, you know, there's danger to saying absolute truth 1557 01:29:06,280 --> 01:29:08,120 extends across our all categories. 1558 01:29:08,120 --> 01:29:11,120 But I firmly believe that absolute truth exists and that 1559 01:29:11,120 --> 01:29:14,720 we need a kind of money that is undergirded by the idea of 1560 01:29:14,720 --> 01:29:17,040 absolute truth. So that's one of my core beliefs 1561 01:29:17,040 --> 01:29:21,480 that that I can't be shaken from just my own life experience. 1562 01:29:21,480 --> 01:29:25,280 I've seen, OK, there's capital, capital T truth out there. 1563 01:29:25,280 --> 01:29:29,400 And we need to do our best to align ourselves in our lives to 1564 01:29:29,400 --> 01:29:33,200 that truth. I think it will not surprise you 1565 01:29:33,200 --> 01:29:37,040 that I fully agree. I think that is also one of my 1566 01:29:37,040 --> 01:29:40,720 biggest realizations that whatever you think of Bitcoin, 1567 01:29:40,720 --> 01:29:44,120 your opinion about its applications and stuff like 1568 01:29:44,120 --> 01:29:47,360 that, you cannot deny that Bitcoin is absolute engineer 1569 01:29:47,360 --> 01:29:49,760 truth. Because it's just the thing you 1570 01:29:49,760 --> 01:29:53,440 know, it's, it's just the thing that works as intended, you 1571 01:29:53,440 --> 01:29:57,240 know, and as intended is what the rules of the protocol are. 1572 01:29:57,840 --> 01:30:00,360 And enough people are still following that. 1573 01:30:01,280 --> 01:30:05,880 And whatever comes out of that is the truth coming from that 1574 01:30:05,880 --> 01:30:08,040 system. And that that is, I think one of 1575 01:30:08,040 --> 01:30:11,920 the also main characteristics and main points of Bitcoin is. 1576 01:30:12,360 --> 01:30:16,080 This is the. Truth and you cannot change it. 1577 01:30:16,520 --> 01:30:22,680 And therefore it has value and it's guarded by the most, you 1578 01:30:22,680 --> 01:30:24,320 know, the strongest computer network in the world. 1579 01:30:25,440 --> 01:30:28,840 So yeah, I think we could start a whole rabbit hole journey from 1580 01:30:28,840 --> 01:30:29,600 that. But I love. 1581 01:30:29,640 --> 01:30:31,960 I love that you shared that. Yeah. 1582 01:30:31,960 --> 01:30:33,680 Man, I really enjoyed this conversation. 1583 01:30:33,680 --> 01:30:34,960 I want to thank you for your time. 1584 01:30:34,960 --> 01:30:38,360 I will make sure to link to, you know, your Twitter X profile so 1585 01:30:38,360 --> 01:30:40,840 people can follow you and your thoughts and your work. 1586 01:30:41,120 --> 01:30:43,240 And yeah, man, thanks again for the time. 1587 01:30:43,240 --> 01:30:46,040 I really enjoyed this. Yeah. 1588 01:30:46,040 --> 01:30:47,240 Thank you, Bron. This is great. 1589 01:30:47,240 --> 01:30:49,960 This is one of the the funnest Bitcoin conversations I've had 1590 01:30:49,960 --> 01:30:51,640 in a long time. So appreciate it. 1591 01:30:52,240 --> 01:30:54,240 Awesome man, stay in touch. Cheers. 1592 01:30:54,920 --> 01:30:57,600 I hope you enjoyed this episode and if you did, check out some 1593 01:30:57,600 --> 01:31:00,200 of my other episodes to learn why Bitcoin is the most 1594 01:31:00,200 --> 01:31:03,000 important subject you must understand and adopt. 1595 01:31:03,360 --> 01:31:05,800 If you want, you can follow and connect with me on Twitter. 1596 01:31:05,800 --> 01:31:11,040 X I'm at Bramk, that's at BR AM K and if you have any feedback 1597 01:31:11,040 --> 01:31:15,000 or questions, just reach out. I read and reply to every single 1598 01:31:15,200 --> 01:31:17,480 message. I appreciate your support and 1599 01:31:17,480 --> 01:31:18,960 hope you'll be here for our next episode. 1600 01:31:19,200 --> 01:31:20,560 Thanks for listening. Bye.