1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:02,720 In a world of MPC's and centralized control, the most 2 00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:06,560 radical thing that you can do is to reclaim your own agency. 3 00:00:07,080 --> 00:00:10,240 In this episode, I'm joined by Eric Yikes, Bitcoin VC and the 4 00:00:10,240 --> 00:00:14,320 author of The 7th Property. We move past number, go up and 5 00:00:14,320 --> 00:00:17,360 discuss the monetary revolution that Bitcoin brings. 6 00:00:17,640 --> 00:00:21,440 We explore how immutability is the only thing that can fix our 7 00:00:21,440 --> 00:00:25,040 corrupted relationship with value and why Bitcoin, AI and 8 00:00:25,040 --> 00:00:28,320 personal hardware are merging to create a world where you no 9 00:00:28,320 --> 00:00:32,080 longer have to trade your freedom for convenience, but you 10 00:00:32,080 --> 00:00:35,080 do have to act today. All right, let's dive in. 11 00:00:37,600 --> 00:00:40,200 Eric Yates, welcome to Bitcoin for Millennials. 12 00:00:41,280 --> 00:00:44,360 Ram, my first time on. I'm ready to rock. 13 00:00:44,960 --> 00:00:47,880 Boom, I'm ready to rock too. I'm very happy you're on. 14 00:00:48,320 --> 00:00:51,800 Like I just, I, I just said to you before we started recording, 15 00:00:52,280 --> 00:00:55,760 I love how you see Bitcoin in the, in the big picture. 16 00:00:55,760 --> 00:00:58,440 And I think more people need to understand the big picture 17 00:00:58,440 --> 00:01:01,320 because it's a big battle. It's slow, it's going to take 18 00:01:01,320 --> 00:01:04,160 time. And I think, I think people 19 00:01:04,160 --> 00:01:07,400 need, need more of that. So I'm happy to, to dive into 20 00:01:07,400 --> 00:01:10,680 that with you in this conversation. 21 00:01:10,680 --> 00:01:15,600 And I, I just want to dive in straight and want to mention 22 00:01:15,600 --> 00:01:17,520 your book. And like, one of the big ideas 23 00:01:17,520 --> 00:01:22,800 from your, from your book is you've identified immutability 24 00:01:23,280 --> 00:01:26,920 as the 7th property of money. So before Bitcoin, money was 25 00:01:26,920 --> 00:01:30,520 always elastic, right? People could clip coins, central 26 00:01:30,520 --> 00:01:36,280 banks could just print, you know, infinite amounts of money 27 00:01:36,280 --> 00:01:40,240 units. Basically, why is immutability, 28 00:01:40,840 --> 00:01:44,400 in your opinion, the most important variable for the 29 00:01:44,400 --> 00:01:47,840 survival of the money? And therefore also in the bigger 30 00:01:47,840 --> 00:01:52,080 picture, where civilization, the community that's using a certain 31 00:01:52,080 --> 00:01:56,160 money, why is that so important? So I, I wouldn't characterize it 32 00:01:56,160 --> 00:01:58,320 as necessarily the most important. 33 00:01:59,000 --> 00:02:03,600 What I would characterize it as is the like the new innovation 34 00:02:03,600 --> 00:02:07,160 that has changed money that Bitcoin brought about. 35 00:02:07,560 --> 00:02:13,000 And and that was kind of the primary thesis around my book, 36 00:02:13,480 --> 00:02:15,880 other than just being like an educational resource for people 37 00:02:15,880 --> 00:02:18,000 who want to understand the case for Bitcoin in general, 38 00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:20,120 particularly people coming from more of like a finance 39 00:02:20,120 --> 00:02:24,520 background. To answer this question, it 40 00:02:24,520 --> 00:02:29,400 helps to provide context. And in a lot of what I discuss 41 00:02:29,400 --> 00:02:33,000 up in the making this point within the book is, you know, 42 00:02:33,000 --> 00:02:34,880 getting into the history of money and some of the 43 00:02:34,880 --> 00:02:37,640 technological developments that happened in how society 44 00:02:37,640 --> 00:02:41,240 progressed over time. That gives you the right 45 00:02:41,240 --> 00:02:44,440 understanding to say, oh, OK, so This is why Bitcoin was 46 00:02:44,440 --> 00:02:45,720 different. This is why this new 47 00:02:45,720 --> 00:02:48,040 characteristic of immutability mattered so much. 48 00:02:48,400 --> 00:02:53,160 And, and it really just starts with, you know, money in 49 00:02:53,160 --> 00:02:55,720 antiquity was just like this very private phenomenon. 50 00:02:55,720 --> 00:03:00,880 It was something that was created by people themselves. 51 00:03:01,240 --> 00:03:04,040 It was stored on people themselves. 52 00:03:04,640 --> 00:03:07,800 And then people verified it amongst one another themselves. 53 00:03:08,240 --> 00:03:10,880 And it was something that everybody participated in. 54 00:03:10,880 --> 00:03:14,160 It was like, you know, drinking water or cleaning your house. 55 00:03:14,160 --> 00:03:17,720 It was just something that everybody did and, and it was 56 00:03:17,720 --> 00:03:22,200 over time as society scaled and became more structured that we 57 00:03:22,200 --> 00:03:23,680 started to specialize more in it. 58 00:03:23,680 --> 00:03:28,120 And as we had like technological improvements in money, it made 59 00:03:28,120 --> 00:03:30,400 more sense for certain people to specialize in different 60 00:03:30,400 --> 00:03:32,080 functions. So like those three functions I 61 00:03:32,080 --> 00:03:36,120 just described as its production, its storage, and 62 00:03:36,120 --> 00:03:39,720 then it's verification. And it really kind of started on 63 00:03:39,720 --> 00:03:44,200 the production side when we had this shift from, you know, 64 00:03:44,200 --> 00:03:50,240 commodity based monies like seashells or flints, furs, all 65 00:03:50,240 --> 00:03:53,440 these different things that were basically people finding scarce 66 00:03:53,440 --> 00:03:57,040 goods that had good properties of money within whatever 67 00:03:57,040 --> 00:04:00,760 geography that they lived in. And, and those eventually, you 68 00:04:00,760 --> 00:04:03,280 know, those kind of scaled a bit in like agricultural economies 69 00:04:03,280 --> 00:04:05,560 to a specific set of goods like cattle and salt. 70 00:04:05,920 --> 00:04:10,640 And, and it really wasn't until the precious metal era that the 71 00:04:10,640 --> 00:04:14,040 production started to become much more centralized. 72 00:04:14,080 --> 00:04:17,680 And it was like, OK, not everybody can go mine gold, not 73 00:04:17,680 --> 00:04:20,440 everybody can go buying silver, not everybody can smelt it. 74 00:04:20,440 --> 00:04:24,840 After that whole process was something that started to become 75 00:04:24,840 --> 00:04:28,200 entrusted to a smaller group. And, and the reason that that 76 00:04:28,200 --> 00:04:30,960 made sense was because, you know, the precious metals had 77 00:04:31,200 --> 00:04:36,360 superior characteristics to prior forms of money, namely 78 00:04:36,360 --> 00:04:39,640 they were much, much scarcer. They held value much better 79 00:04:39,640 --> 00:04:41,480 because their supply was much more limited. 80 00:04:41,480 --> 00:04:44,320 We knew that on a year over year basis, the supply wouldn't 81 00:04:44,320 --> 00:04:48,640 increase drastically. And and that evolution was 82 00:04:48,640 --> 00:04:50,600 enough for people to say, OK, well, we're going to trust in 83 00:04:50,600 --> 00:04:53,520 the production of this. And that what that's fine in the 84 00:04:53,520 --> 00:04:57,560 emergence of it. But if we look at, you know, 85 00:04:57,560 --> 00:04:59,600 some of the like the early societies and like one of the 86 00:04:59,600 --> 00:05:03,320 most cited would be like the Roman Empire, we started to see 87 00:05:03,320 --> 00:05:06,640 how people would take advantage of that process over time. 88 00:05:06,640 --> 00:05:08,400 And there are there are really like two things. 89 00:05:08,680 --> 00:05:11,960 When the production of money turned into like coinage 90 00:05:12,040 --> 00:05:17,320 systems, it wasn't governments, but it was the merchant class 91 00:05:17,320 --> 00:05:19,880 that was attributed with creating practices, or just 92 00:05:19,880 --> 00:05:23,040 anybody conducting trade really, but primarily merchants of coin 93 00:05:23,040 --> 00:05:26,600 clipping where you would provide, you know, you'd paint 94 00:05:26,600 --> 00:05:29,320 some sort of coin, a merchant would receive the coin, they 95 00:05:29,320 --> 00:05:32,200 would start shaving off like tiny amounts of the coin on the 96 00:05:32,200 --> 00:05:35,280 edges of it, and then they give it to the next guy at a slightly 97 00:05:35,280 --> 00:05:38,200 lighter weight. And that was, it was important 98 00:05:38,200 --> 00:05:39,680 because that needed happening coinage. 99 00:05:40,200 --> 00:05:42,360 Prior to coinage, people were weighing money. 100 00:05:42,440 --> 00:05:44,560 But once it got into coinage, people kind of trusted the 101 00:05:44,560 --> 00:05:46,720 weight because it said so on the coin. 102 00:05:47,120 --> 00:05:51,200 And you could take advantage of that trust as a merchant. 103 00:05:51,480 --> 00:05:54,720 So that coin flipping practice was kind of used as a scapegoat 104 00:05:55,560 --> 00:06:00,160 by certain governments and, you know, state authorities to say, 105 00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:02,240 no, we needed to actually control this production. 106 00:06:02,640 --> 00:06:05,360 And in the irony was that the government ended up doing the 107 00:06:05,360 --> 00:06:08,920 exact same thing. They like the, if you read the 108 00:06:08,920 --> 00:06:12,280 history of the Roman Empire and the hyperinflation that occurred 109 00:06:12,280 --> 00:06:14,960 within these currencies, it was largely attributed to the 110 00:06:14,960 --> 00:06:17,480 government, you know, effectively diluting its value 111 00:06:17,480 --> 00:06:20,640 and the smelting process and mixing it with other precious 112 00:06:20,640 --> 00:06:23,640 metals that were not as scarce as gold or silver. 113 00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:29,840 And so that was kind of like that first function of money 114 00:06:30,160 --> 00:06:34,120 that ultimately led to this moral hazard that came from 115 00:06:34,240 --> 00:06:37,200 trusting people with the process that didn't hadn't existed 116 00:06:37,200 --> 00:06:39,440 before. And then what one of the next 117 00:06:39,440 --> 00:06:42,920 major events that caused it was the emergence of banking 118 00:06:42,920 --> 00:06:45,640 systems. And once again, these were a 119 00:06:45,640 --> 00:06:49,320 private phenomenon. These were, you know, a, a lot 120 00:06:49,320 --> 00:06:51,880 of it was attributed at least within like Western banking 121 00:06:51,880 --> 00:06:55,480 systems to the emergence of the Goldsmith bankers in London. 122 00:06:56,240 --> 00:06:59,400 And and that was kind of a product of, you know, people 123 00:06:59,400 --> 00:07:01,800 didn't have a lot of places to store their money at the time. 124 00:07:02,200 --> 00:07:07,520 And they would store it in either monasteries or government 125 00:07:07,520 --> 00:07:10,200 institutions. And then it was under Charles 126 00:07:10,200 --> 00:07:14,720 the 1st in London that, you know, the money was actually 127 00:07:14,720 --> 00:07:17,440 stolen from one of these government institutions. 128 00:07:17,440 --> 00:07:21,360 And people were like, OK, well, we don't really trust that we 129 00:07:21,360 --> 00:07:22,800 can keep it under the control of the government. 130 00:07:23,160 --> 00:07:25,240 We're going to, you know, take our gold and we're going to put 131 00:07:25,240 --> 00:07:28,680 it in other places. And it was these Goldsmiths who 132 00:07:28,680 --> 00:07:32,560 had a lot of storage for gold that became the natural storage 133 00:07:32,560 --> 00:07:34,040 place for people to be putting it. 134 00:07:34,600 --> 00:07:38,600 And, and that was the, you know, the antiquity of like modern 135 00:07:38,600 --> 00:07:41,560 Western banking. That was the start of it because 136 00:07:41,560 --> 00:07:46,800 people realized, well, OK, we now have paper and at this point 137 00:07:46,800 --> 00:07:50,520 in time, like a printing press. And it made a lot more sense for 138 00:07:50,520 --> 00:07:52,520 them to say, rather than like pulling gold in and out all the 139 00:07:52,520 --> 00:07:55,760 time, why don't we just trade receipts that these Goldsmiths 140 00:07:55,760 --> 00:07:59,120 give us instead of trading the gold directly. 141 00:07:59,120 --> 00:08:00,360 Then we can just keep the gold in there. 142 00:08:00,360 --> 00:08:02,600 And then it's way more efficient for us to trade receipts. 143 00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:06,120 And and that was another form of trust and storage. 144 00:08:06,520 --> 00:08:09,880 And then that is what spawned ultimately like fractional 145 00:08:09,880 --> 00:08:13,840 reserve banking. And then once again, when there 146 00:08:13,840 --> 00:08:16,440 were issues that have started to emerge in private markets, it 147 00:08:16,440 --> 00:08:20,200 was, you know, that was kind of the inception of the Bank of 148 00:08:20,200 --> 00:08:24,760 England was designed to protect people and say, OK, well, you 149 00:08:24,760 --> 00:08:26,840 know, we can't trust private markets to manage the banking of 150 00:08:26,840 --> 00:08:28,160 this. We need to have a central bank 151 00:08:28,160 --> 00:08:30,840 that's making good on this and protecting these institutions. 152 00:08:31,640 --> 00:08:33,880 And then ultimately we want to try to control the Fiat money 153 00:08:33,880 --> 00:08:36,720 ourselves or control the money ourselves. 154 00:08:36,720 --> 00:08:39,679 And then they try to convert it into Fiat money to the Bank of 155 00:08:39,679 --> 00:08:41,080 England, which ultimately failed. 156 00:08:42,240 --> 00:08:44,960 And, and we had this period of like centuries basically where 157 00:08:46,200 --> 00:08:49,520 there was kind of this battle between the central bank and 158 00:08:49,520 --> 00:08:51,720 private banking institutions over that control. 159 00:08:53,080 --> 00:08:56,520 And, and it was like, you know, during this period, Well, what 160 00:08:56,520 --> 00:08:58,840 we can see the pattern is that as we have technological 161 00:08:58,840 --> 00:09:02,680 innovation, you know, as we were able to actually mine and smelt 162 00:09:02,680 --> 00:09:05,040 metals that led to 1 innovation and money. 163 00:09:05,240 --> 00:09:08,480 And then we had another technological innovation, which 164 00:09:08,480 --> 00:09:11,320 is, you know, during like the paper area of like the printing 165 00:09:11,320 --> 00:09:15,040 press and then double entry bookkeeping, accounting, and 166 00:09:15,040 --> 00:09:17,520 then like ultimately centuries later, the Telegraph. 167 00:09:17,520 --> 00:09:20,680 And like with the Telegraph paired into that equation, paper 168 00:09:20,680 --> 00:09:24,360 money was the ideal medium of exchange because you could move 169 00:09:24,360 --> 00:09:27,920 trade all over Europe very rapidly by updating ledgers 170 00:09:27,920 --> 00:09:31,000 between different people on paper and settling the physical 171 00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:32,920 cash notes in the like a more local area. 172 00:09:33,440 --> 00:09:37,400 So money kind of progressed through this and with each step, 173 00:09:37,440 --> 00:09:40,240 it started to become more centralized on these different 174 00:09:40,240 --> 00:09:42,600 functions. And then when nobody was really 175 00:09:43,400 --> 00:09:46,480 involved in the monetary process at that point, verification 176 00:09:46,480 --> 00:09:48,480 became something that you're kind of trusting to other 177 00:09:48,480 --> 00:09:52,400 institutions as well. So we can, you know, Fast 178 00:09:52,400 --> 00:09:56,880 forward that to where we ended up in the US today and what 179 00:09:56,880 --> 00:09:59,360 happened when we were on a gold standard and then how that was 180 00:09:59,360 --> 00:10:03,040 repealed under Nixon. And then ultimately, we're just 181 00:10:03,040 --> 00:10:07,520 kind of in this Fiat monetary era where everything about money 182 00:10:07,520 --> 00:10:10,800 is 100% completely trusted, completely controlled, 183 00:10:10,800 --> 00:10:14,200 completely centralized. We are living in a world that's 184 00:10:14,200 --> 00:10:17,200 completely uncharted territory where not only do we have 185 00:10:17,200 --> 00:10:20,720 government money, but all of its, you know, unbacked by gold. 186 00:10:21,080 --> 00:10:24,680 And they have expanded debt because of that to the largest 187 00:10:24,680 --> 00:10:28,960 proportions of GDP in history. And there's no end inside as 188 00:10:28,960 --> 00:10:30,680 terms of how that's actually going to stop. 189 00:10:30,680 --> 00:10:32,120 You know nothing stops this train. 190 00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:37,440 When it comes to holding Bitcoin securely, Peace of Mind starts 191 00:10:37,440 --> 00:10:40,240 with architecture. On Ramps multi institution 192 00:10:40,240 --> 00:10:43,600 custody model distributes control access across three 193 00:10:43,760 --> 00:10:47,320 independent regulated key holders in a two of three multi 194 00:10:47,320 --> 00:10:49,760 state quorum. 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Visit onrampbitcoin.com to learn 205 00:11:22,920 --> 00:11:27,920 more and sign up with codebrum. That's BR AM to receive $150.00 206 00:11:27,920 --> 00:11:30,240 in Bitcoin after your first deposit. 207 00:11:30,760 --> 00:11:33,360 Onramp strength in many, simplicity in one. 208 00:11:35,400 --> 00:11:37,080 Hey there. Just a quick note before we 209 00:11:37,080 --> 00:11:39,000 continue. The podcast has really been 210 00:11:39,000 --> 00:11:42,640 growing and I'm super grateful for that Over 70,000 people 211 00:11:42,640 --> 00:11:46,280 TuneIn regularly, but I've also seen that about 60% of you still 212 00:11:46,280 --> 00:11:49,160 haven't subscribed yet. So if you enjoy what I'm doing, 213 00:11:49,160 --> 00:11:52,000 if you think the content is valuable, I want to ask you to 214 00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:55,400 subscribe on YouTube and please like any video that you find 215 00:11:55,400 --> 00:11:58,880 value in this really helps me to fuel the YouTube algorithm and 216 00:11:58,880 --> 00:12:02,240 also to reach more people with the message on Bitcoin. 217 00:12:02,760 --> 00:12:04,080 I want to thank you for your support. 218 00:12:04,440 --> 00:12:07,560 Now let's continue. And so when when we think about 219 00:12:07,560 --> 00:12:10,440 all of that, it's like, OK, so at each step in the monetary 220 00:12:10,640 --> 00:12:13,920 revolution, we had these benefits, these things that 221 00:12:13,920 --> 00:12:15,480 actually benefited the property of money. 222 00:12:15,480 --> 00:12:18,240 Precious metals made money better than it was before for a 223 00:12:18,240 --> 00:12:20,080 variety of reasons, but it required trust. 224 00:12:20,280 --> 00:12:23,080 Paper made money better than it was before. 225 00:12:23,080 --> 00:12:25,840 It made it far more portable than it had ever been. 226 00:12:26,320 --> 00:12:29,920 The problem with paper money was that it wasn't scarce. 227 00:12:30,000 --> 00:12:31,760 Outside of that, it was pretty superior. 228 00:12:31,960 --> 00:12:35,320 So we had to tie it to something that had a scarce supply. 229 00:12:35,320 --> 00:12:38,880 And as long as it remained tied to that supply, it remained 230 00:12:38,880 --> 00:12:40,920 scarce. But it required trust. 231 00:12:41,360 --> 00:12:45,840 And, and one of the key ideas from my book is that whenever 232 00:12:46,640 --> 00:12:52,920 you know, it's a very, you know, basic economic construct of the 233 00:12:53,400 --> 00:12:57,440 principal agent problem. Where when an individual trusts 234 00:12:57,440 --> 00:13:01,280 an agent to carry out something on behalf of them, but that 235 00:13:01,280 --> 00:13:04,560 agent has a conflict of interest with you that that results in 236 00:13:04,560 --> 00:13:07,640 moral hazard, AKA they act in their own best interests and not 237 00:13:07,640 --> 00:13:10,600 in yours. And, and, and a good example of 238 00:13:10,600 --> 00:13:14,560 that's if you were to hire a Courier to send some legal 239 00:13:14,560 --> 00:13:16,360 documents that make no difference to them and you're 240 00:13:16,360 --> 00:13:20,040 going to pay them $100, then you can be reasonably assured that 241 00:13:20,040 --> 00:13:21,880 they're going to deliver those documents. 242 00:13:21,880 --> 00:13:23,760 But if you hired that same Courier, paid them the same 243 00:13:23,760 --> 00:13:26,520 amount of money, and you ask them to deliver, you know, 244 00:13:26,520 --> 00:13:30,600 $1,000,000 worth of gold bars, then those gold bars probably 245 00:13:30,600 --> 00:13:33,280 are getting delivered. And and that's where this 246 00:13:33,280 --> 00:13:36,800 fundamental conflict of interest exists over the control of 247 00:13:36,800 --> 00:13:38,440 money. And it's been pervasive 248 00:13:38,440 --> 00:13:41,760 throughout history. And that's why financial 249 00:13:41,760 --> 00:13:46,920 institutions are arguably the most littered with fraud out of 250 00:13:46,920 --> 00:13:49,120 any other category. It's why it's both heavily 251 00:13:49,120 --> 00:13:53,200 regulated system in the world because there's just such an 252 00:13:53,200 --> 00:13:55,160 inherent conflict of interest within it. 253 00:13:55,760 --> 00:13:59,800 So that's what society was trading off with all these 254 00:13:59,800 --> 00:14:02,640 technological evolutions. And then we move into the 255 00:14:02,640 --> 00:14:06,080 Internet area where everything's on a digital Ledger and it's 256 00:14:06,080 --> 00:14:09,640 totally trusted because, you know, money can be created at 257 00:14:09,640 --> 00:14:14,200 the push of a button now. And now that we're in this era, 258 00:14:14,560 --> 00:14:20,000 we like the key innovation of Bitcoin was that we found a way 259 00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:22,480 to find all these other properties of money that were 260 00:14:22,480 --> 00:14:24,920 very valuable, make them even better. 261 00:14:25,040 --> 00:14:27,760 You know, digital money is much better than paper money. 262 00:14:27,760 --> 00:14:30,080 We can move it at the speed of the Internet. 263 00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:34,480 And that's a very, very valuable innovation in the modern world. 264 00:14:34,480 --> 00:14:37,080 And it fits into how people behave in the modern economy. 265 00:14:38,120 --> 00:14:40,560 It's much more durable because you can't shut the Internet 266 00:14:40,560 --> 00:14:41,960 down. You know, it's another very 267 00:14:41,960 --> 00:14:45,440 valuable property and and we had all these other properties that 268 00:14:45,440 --> 00:14:48,640 were improvements over other forms of money historically. 269 00:14:48,680 --> 00:14:53,240 And it's also immutable. It's something where we know 270 00:14:53,240 --> 00:14:59,520 that it will still remain scarce despite, you know, all of these 271 00:14:59,520 --> 00:15:03,000 other things being good as well. Whereas historically the other 272 00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:05,080 properties, there was always some sort of trade off and it 273 00:15:05,080 --> 00:15:07,840 was like, OK, well, if you want something that's scarce, it's 274 00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:10,080 not going to be as portable. You got to trade in gold bars. 275 00:15:10,360 --> 00:15:12,360 You know, there's, there's all these trade-offs that you had. 276 00:15:12,360 --> 00:15:16,000 And we kind of removed that trade off with Bitcoin and gave 277 00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:18,840 it this immutable property to say, no, you, you actually can't 278 00:15:19,320 --> 00:15:21,840 change this. And you can control and store it 279 00:15:21,840 --> 00:15:25,080 on yourself in a very cheap way. And you can move it across the 280 00:15:25,080 --> 00:15:28,920 world in a very cheap way, much better than any other form of 281 00:15:28,920 --> 00:15:31,000 money. And like that, that's kind of 282 00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:33,640 like the true innovation that we see in Bitcoin is that it didn't 283 00:15:33,640 --> 00:15:35,400 have a trade off. And like you call that an 284 00:15:35,400 --> 00:15:37,960 innovation. A lot of people nowadays just 285 00:15:37,960 --> 00:15:42,360 think like all the money we have today is or we, we organically 286 00:15:42,360 --> 00:15:48,280 came to this point in time and collectively we've decided that, 287 00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:52,640 you know, This is Money and this is the best way that that money 288 00:15:52,640 --> 00:15:58,840 could even work. So I think in order to get the 289 00:15:58,840 --> 00:16:02,120 immutability and like how important it is, you first have 290 00:16:02,120 --> 00:16:08,120 to accept that humans are corruptible, including yourself, 291 00:16:08,120 --> 00:16:09,760 right? You have to accept that and that 292 00:16:09,760 --> 00:16:15,440 you kind of need this technology that takes that opportunity away 293 00:16:15,720 --> 00:16:19,040 away from you. So that the only logical option 294 00:16:19,040 --> 00:16:23,160 and self interested option is to follow the incentive of 295 00:16:23,600 --> 00:16:28,200 following the rules of in this case, Bitcoin has money. 296 00:16:30,600 --> 00:16:35,720 How do you think this changes just how people communicate? 297 00:16:35,720 --> 00:16:39,600 We follow an objective truth. Everyone can verify Bitcoin, the 298 00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:43,800 Ledger of Bitcoin instead of this forced trust, right? 299 00:16:43,800 --> 00:16:46,240 Like I'm the central bank, I'm the governor or I'm the king or 300 00:16:46,240 --> 00:16:49,240 the OR the OR the whatever. How do you think about this, 301 00:16:49,680 --> 00:16:52,400 this change? Because I, I think that a lot of 302 00:16:52,400 --> 00:16:55,400 people don't really see this. And it's also hard to see 303 00:16:55,400 --> 00:16:59,760 because all we know is just outsource trust to other people 304 00:16:59,760 --> 00:17:06,119 that have a certain position. I, I think that I feel like, you 305 00:17:06,119 --> 00:17:09,440 know, 5-10 years from now, we'll be looking at kind of this very 306 00:17:09,440 --> 00:17:13,839 specific point in time that we're in and we are going to 307 00:17:13,839 --> 00:17:17,640 look back on this is like is really an inflection point. 308 00:17:18,079 --> 00:17:23,599 And the, the distributed world where when we, when I think 309 00:17:23,599 --> 00:17:25,880 about what Bitcoin does is money, and then I think about 310 00:17:25,880 --> 00:17:31,120 the intersection of that with what's happening with AI, there 311 00:17:31,560 --> 00:17:35,560 is a lot more independence that's starting to happen. 312 00:17:36,160 --> 00:17:40,480 I think that we're, you know, a lot of that started with the 313 00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:44,360 distribution of media. I think that we've moved away 314 00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:47,000 from a lot of centralized sources of media. 315 00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:49,640 And we look at some of the most influential groups now. 316 00:17:49,640 --> 00:17:53,160 And it's like podcasts, You know, Joe Rogan's podcast has so 317 00:17:53,160 --> 00:17:56,600 much, so many more viewers than mainstream media at this point. 318 00:17:56,840 --> 00:17:58,760 And we see all these podcasts emerging all the world where 319 00:17:58,760 --> 00:18:03,000 people can get into their own local communities or their own 320 00:18:03,000 --> 00:18:06,080 particular interests or people with, you know, similar 321 00:18:06,080 --> 00:18:08,680 personality characteristics as them and they can start to 322 00:18:08,680 --> 00:18:10,560 follow information within a specific niche. 323 00:18:10,560 --> 00:18:12,560 Information is just so much more accessible. 324 00:18:13,000 --> 00:18:16,200 And and that led to like a more distributed environment of it. 325 00:18:16,200 --> 00:18:18,760 So the production of that information and then the ability 326 00:18:18,760 --> 00:18:21,120 to access it is what made it more distributed. 327 00:18:21,120 --> 00:18:23,640 And I think we're kind of seeing a similar thing happen right now 328 00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:27,360 where we're witnessing it happen with money and, and I think 329 00:18:27,360 --> 00:18:29,880 we're witnessing it starting to happen with like hardware. 330 00:18:29,880 --> 00:18:32,320 I think that people are realizing in the same way that, 331 00:18:33,760 --> 00:18:38,080 you know, when personal computing first entered people's 332 00:18:38,080 --> 00:18:42,400 homes, that was because people expected a massive improvement 333 00:18:42,400 --> 00:18:45,400 in their lifestyle from being able to access a personal 334 00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:48,600 computer. The learning curve and all the 335 00:18:48,600 --> 00:18:51,480 effort that they had to put into ultimately learning how to use a 336 00:18:51,480 --> 00:18:55,000 computer and access the Internet and all the protocols and 337 00:18:55,000 --> 00:18:57,440 behaviors and terminology, etcetera. 338 00:18:57,720 --> 00:19:01,680 People put thousands of hours into getting competent enough to 339 00:19:01,680 --> 00:19:03,160 be able to use a personal computer. 340 00:19:03,440 --> 00:19:06,040 And I think we're going to witness a similar thing happen 341 00:19:06,240 --> 00:19:09,600 where AI is providing that for people as well. 342 00:19:09,600 --> 00:19:12,360 If you want to use your own local information, you want to 343 00:19:12,360 --> 00:19:17,200 run it locally for better performance, you know, hardware 344 00:19:17,200 --> 00:19:18,880 is going to be an access point for that. 345 00:19:19,200 --> 00:19:21,240 And then you look at Bitcoin self custody and it's like you 346 00:19:21,240 --> 00:19:24,000 want to control your assets here, here, here it is. 347 00:19:24,000 --> 00:19:27,200 And like the way we're, you know, I run a venture fund that 348 00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:29,680 invests in like Bitcoin companies and like the way that 349 00:19:29,680 --> 00:19:32,840 in some of our research that I qualify this point or not 350 00:19:32,840 --> 00:19:38,880 qualified to find this point is what give it any good or service 351 00:19:38,880 --> 00:19:44,160 In an economy when it's marginal cost decreases to a certain 352 00:19:44,160 --> 00:19:47,160 threshold that it's low enough to where people don't really 353 00:19:47,160 --> 00:19:50,520 feel it as much, that's when you start to see distribution happen 354 00:19:50,520 --> 00:19:51,880 a lot more. And that's when you start to see 355 00:19:51,880 --> 00:19:54,200 a more decentralized view of the system. 356 00:19:54,640 --> 00:19:58,120 And, and that's kind of what we did with money by lowering the 357 00:19:58,120 --> 00:20:02,320 storage costs of it so that we don't have to store, you know, a 358 00:20:02,320 --> 00:20:07,440 ton of gold bars in our basement or somewhere else in a treasure 359 00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:09,680 chest. And we can hold it on a USB hard 360 00:20:09,680 --> 00:20:10,840 drive and send it wherever we want. 361 00:20:11,080 --> 00:20:13,360 And that lowered the marginal cost of participation. 362 00:20:13,800 --> 00:20:16,080 And holding value. And that's, that's like the 363 00:20:16,080 --> 00:20:18,200 massive, massive innovation that we're witnessing. 364 00:20:18,200 --> 00:20:19,600 It's going to continue to distribute. 365 00:20:19,960 --> 00:20:23,480 I think that right now we're just in very early periods of 366 00:20:23,480 --> 00:20:29,120 time where people are still all stuck in this old system. 367 00:20:29,520 --> 00:20:32,560 So the way that they access the new system is from what they 368 00:20:32,560 --> 00:20:36,840 already know, and it'll be some time until they go up that 369 00:20:36,840 --> 00:20:39,960 learning curve. And it'll require a lot more 370 00:20:39,960 --> 00:20:42,640 negative things to happen with the current system for people to 371 00:20:42,640 --> 00:20:46,240 realize like, oh, why do taxes keep going up? 372 00:20:46,240 --> 00:20:49,640 And yet and Social Security benefits are going up and yet, 373 00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:54,320 you know, inflation is spiking and everything. 374 00:20:54,320 --> 00:20:57,240 I feel poorer and nobody knows why because it's such a 375 00:20:57,240 --> 00:21:00,440 convoluted system, but I think that we'll get to a point where 376 00:21:00,440 --> 00:21:03,240 people really do start to realize a pain point when enough 377 00:21:03,240 --> 00:21:07,440 of their friends continue over a decade to keep getting rich off 378 00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:11,280 of just owning Bitcoin independently and be like, maybe 379 00:21:11,280 --> 00:21:13,640 I should on this. I'm going to learn about what's 380 00:21:13,640 --> 00:21:15,920 happening in the in the system. Like most people will be LED 381 00:21:15,920 --> 00:21:18,080 this way, right? Like they're it's, it's not 382 00:21:18,080 --> 00:21:20,280 because they care. It's because it's just going to 383 00:21:20,280 --> 00:21:22,760 be so patently obvious to them at a certain point because 384 00:21:22,760 --> 00:21:24,520 everybody around them is going to be doing it. 385 00:21:24,840 --> 00:21:27,880 And so I go, yeah, system scary. It's like, yeah, man, I wouldn't 386 00:21:27,880 --> 00:21:29,440 touch that. Like I just, I'm just owning 387 00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:30,920 Bitcoin. I controlled myself. 388 00:21:32,120 --> 00:21:36,720 All my data is on my home server and my AI has been, I'm running 389 00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:39,240 most of my tasks for me. And like, it's, it's, it's a 390 00:21:39,240 --> 00:21:42,480 completely different paradigm shift of how people are going to 391 00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:45,120 be living. And, and like, I think we're 392 00:21:45,120 --> 00:21:47,560 kind of at the inflection point for that right now. 393 00:21:47,600 --> 00:21:50,600 And that that means that communities are going to 394 00:21:50,600 --> 00:21:51,960 structure themselves differently. 395 00:21:52,200 --> 00:21:54,440 That means a societal restructuring is going to be 396 00:21:54,440 --> 00:21:56,160 happening. That means new jobs are going to 397 00:21:56,160 --> 00:22:02,760 emerge after old jobs die. And and I think that Bitcoin is 398 00:22:02,760 --> 00:22:07,920 going to be the key source of value and ownership within kind 399 00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:12,920 of this new paradigm. So yeah, I guess to like loop it 400 00:22:12,920 --> 00:22:15,640 all back to answering your question of, you know, how, how 401 00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:18,320 does that really change the way that people communicate? 402 00:22:19,800 --> 00:22:22,280 I think that it increases agency. 403 00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:26,320 I think that when people have enough of a reason to want to 404 00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:30,160 take ownership over things for themselves and they can get a 405 00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:34,440 benefit from doing that, then that's going to change the way 406 00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:36,280 that they're thinking because they're going to be like, oh, 407 00:22:36,280 --> 00:22:39,360 well, I did that one thing. I've been doing this myself. 408 00:22:39,360 --> 00:22:41,240 I learned how to do this myself. That's benefited my life 409 00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:44,720 drastically. I'm going to keep doing this. 410 00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:49,160 Whereas we've been in this trusted consumer debt based 411 00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:53,960 economy for so long where you, you people aren't thinking for 412 00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:57,240 themselves as much. You follow this playbook that's 413 00:22:57,240 --> 00:23:01,160 existed for decades. You spend money on this, you 414 00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:03,880 take out debt to go to college, you get this corporate job that 415 00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:05,760 you hate. You act like a drone. 416 00:23:06,040 --> 00:23:09,960 You behave politically so that you can keep that job. 417 00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:13,440 And in like all of these things that are driven by like a 418 00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:17,080 fundamental conflict of interest that has emerged from Fiat 419 00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:19,480 money. And that fundamental conflict of 420 00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:23,360 interest is that you don't get the fruits of your creation. 421 00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:29,160 So it creates this form of like malincentive within the economy 422 00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:31,520 where people don't really have much else to do other than 423 00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:34,200 appeal to the structure. And, and when you do get that 424 00:23:34,200 --> 00:23:38,480 agency back and you do find novel ways to actually extract 425 00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:42,880 value from your wealth and your time and your resources and your 426 00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:47,000 thought, that's when things really start to change for 427 00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:49,920 people and people start to become human again from that. 428 00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:53,840 Man, I, I, I love that and I I agree. 429 00:23:54,320 --> 00:23:58,600 But there's one thing that I wonder what do you think like it 430 00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:01,440 when you when you think about these technological advancements 431 00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:04,120 that we've had before and you you mentioned a few, right? 432 00:24:04,120 --> 00:24:09,760 I always think that the although there were obviously people that 433 00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:14,640 shunned the Internet, right? Or the what did Paul Krugman say 434 00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:17,440 something about the fax machine, something like that. 435 00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:20,400 But there are there are always people that dismiss new 436 00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:24,240 technology, right? But I think up until now, a lot 437 00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:28,600 of new technology that we use today that replaced old 438 00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:32,160 technology actually was clearly better. 439 00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:36,480 Like it improved your life or, or gave you more entertainment 440 00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:38,320 or, you know, whatever. Like it. 441 00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:41,160 It was pretty surface level in a sense. 442 00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:49,240 But with changing the technology of money, I feel the, the, I 443 00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:51,760 call this the enchantment of Fiat money, right? 444 00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:55,320 Just the, the ignorance about money, the fact that it's even a 445 00:24:55,320 --> 00:24:57,920 technology that it should have certain characteristics, all 446 00:24:57,920 --> 00:25:03,600 these things is just non existent on 99% of of people's 447 00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:05,440 radar. Basically they don't, they don't 448 00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:09,280 really think about it. So that's why I, I, I fully 449 00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:12,160 agree with you. But I do think this takes longer 450 00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:18,320 just because this disinterest or not knowing or, you know, the 451 00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:23,880 enchantment, whatever, it just runs so, so deep that, you know, 452 00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:27,120 even even when the bread is 10 bucks or you know what, whatever 453 00:25:27,120 --> 00:25:29,800 is fucking, it's expensive that that you want to buy now 454 00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:32,200 compared to let's say 5 or 10 years ago. 455 00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:36,160 I still don't really see a lot of people move to to be honest, 456 00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:38,480 right? I see them point towards, you 457 00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:40,480 know, greedy companies, billionaires, you know what, 458 00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:45,640 whatever all these things where as we know, you can literally 459 00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:50,720 just switch to another money, as enormous amount of people have 460 00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:52,840 done before us in in different times. 461 00:25:53,360 --> 00:25:56,520 So I, I just wonder how you think true that and and if you 462 00:25:56,520 --> 00:25:58,920 agree or if you have another point of view on that. 463 00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:03,440 Yeah, I I definitely agree. It's it's not a clear path. 464 00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:06,600 There is very entrenched behaviors, incentives, 465 00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:09,440 technologies in the older system, a lot of things that 466 00:26:09,440 --> 00:26:12,240 prevent their shift over, you know, there's regulations, 467 00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:15,440 there's taxes, there's all these things that make this system not 468 00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:18,920 want to exist. And, and I don't see those 469 00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:23,240 necessarily going away. And I see them potentially 470 00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:24,680 expanding in certain parts of the world. 471 00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:32,280 What what the clear the clear aspect of this is like the 472 00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:38,800 truest thing in the world to people is when you actually make 473 00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:42,640 money out of something. It just like, I, I think a good 474 00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:46,520 example is like another way to think about this is like when 475 00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:51,120 like this debate about defining intelligence, like what is 476 00:26:51,120 --> 00:26:53,160 intelligence? And some people think like, oh, 477 00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:55,520 if somebody's really analytical or they have good pattern 478 00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:59,160 recognition or they're highly strategic thinkers or, you know, 479 00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:01,160 there's all these different characteristics that you can be 480 00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:03,640 good at. But like on the whole, who's the 481 00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:06,800 person that's most intelligent? And, and kind of the best 482 00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:11,160 definition that you can really come up with is getting the 483 00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:13,480 things that you want out of life. 484 00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:15,200 Are you achieving the outcomes that you want? 485 00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:17,440 If you're highly effective at doing that, Whoever is best at 486 00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:22,040 achieving those things, it's probably a highly intelligent 487 00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:25,160 person. And the, you know, money talks. 488 00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:27,240 Money is the universal mechanism. 489 00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:30,400 And it's just like, OK, whoever is probably best at attaining 490 00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:33,120 economic wealth is probably that that's the game everybody's 491 00:27:33,120 --> 00:27:34,920 playing. And they're, you could argue 492 00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:36,840 that they're like the most intelligent person in the world 493 00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:38,480 because they're achieving the best outcomes. 494 00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:46,200 So I think that, you know, from that perspective, number go up, 495 00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:50,280 tech or bitcoins price going up is certainly the thing that's 496 00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:52,440 going to be converting the most people over time. 497 00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:55,720 And and I think the reality is, is that it's gone up so much. 498 00:27:55,720 --> 00:27:58,440 It's converted a significant amount of people, it's made 499 00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:02,560 material progress. You know, it's owned by or at 500 00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:05,240 least a hundreds of millions of people have exposure to it at 501 00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:08,840 this point in time. And there's very few people in 502 00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:11,800 the world you can encounter that haven't heard the word Bitcoin, 503 00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:13,280 aren't aware of it at this point. 504 00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:16,520 They have no idea what it is. But the brand, it's so big that 505 00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:18,720 it's just a globally known thing at this point. 506 00:28:20,560 --> 00:28:25,520 So I, I think it's gone very far in terms of its adoption, but to 507 00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:29,440 get it to the next level where right now it's $2 trillion asset 508 00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:32,720 and what makes it 10 trillion now we're talking about make it 509 00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:34,520 the most valuable thing in the world. 510 00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:37,960 You know, we're talking about pretty big numbers that we're 511 00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:40,040 going after once we say it's going to attack the market of 512 00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:42,680 gold or some other major commodity. 513 00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:45,600 And like we're, we're talking about the top of the billboards. 514 00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:46,880 This is the top of the leader chart. 515 00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:50,760 So big, big things have to be on the horizon to really start 516 00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:54,080 moving at that direction. And, and I see the opportunity 517 00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:58,000 for all that. The way that I think you can 518 00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:02,080 directly answer the question is the way that we think about 519 00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:05,640 things internally at our firm is, you know, we kind of see 520 00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:08,960 like 3 major S curves of Bitcoin that are coming. 521 00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:13,680 And the like the meme of gradually then suddenly is 522 00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:16,840 certainly the the mode that it's going to be following throughout 523 00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:18,960 each one. And like the three main S curves 524 00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:22,160 are kind of getting a hitting a massive inflection point of 525 00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:24,680 adoption across each function that it performs. 526 00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:28,280 So the first one is store value. For something to become a good 527 00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:30,280 form of money has to start is a really good store value. 528 00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:32,840 That's something that makes everybody want to own it over 529 00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:35,760 time and, and there's going to be some sort of S curve in that 530 00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:38,360 process. And you know, the best marketing 531 00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:44,640 tool for Bitcoin is the the neglect of fiscal austerity the 532 00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:46,760 politicians are practicing today. 533 00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:49,680 And there's going to come a point when it hits that S curve, 534 00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:54,240 either because of that or because the narrative is simply 535 00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:56,160 spreading far enough and people start to realize it 536 00:29:56,160 --> 00:29:58,600 preemptively. Either way, one or the other is 537 00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:00,320 going to cost something that direction. 538 00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:03,080 And to look at the trends and think anything else is a very 539 00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:07,760 hard argument to make. But I, I see like the way that 540 00:30:07,760 --> 00:30:11,680 we wrote our annual report and we kind of gave our perspective 541 00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:14,280 on where's Bitcoin price going, you know, kind of near term. 542 00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:18,440 And I think that we're close. I think that we're going to look 543 00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:21,160 back on 2026. It won't be obvious by the end 544 00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:24,840 of 2026, but I think in like 2028 we'll be looking back and 545 00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:27,360 seeing like, oh, this kind of was starting in 2026. 546 00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:31,080 When I think about all these big pools of money that could start 547 00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:34,480 buying Bitcoin and drastically move the price upward, these 548 00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:39,240 large pools of money all think in terms of the traditional 549 00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:43,320 finance Fiat type mindset. And, and, and I'm not 550 00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:46,440 discrediting a lot of it, a lot of it's very true. 551 00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:49,240 A lot of it's still built in a world of Fiat money though. 552 00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:50,880 And it's going to be very wrong because of that. 553 00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:53,160 But within the world that they exist, it makes a lot of sense 554 00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:57,000 to behave this way. From my European friends that 555 00:30:57,000 --> 00:30:59,760 want to buy Bitcoin with ease, check out Relay. 556 00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:02,720 I've been a long time fan and happy to partner up with what I 557 00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:05,840 think is the best Bitcoin only platform for Europeans. 558 00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:09,560 They offer a super simple beginner friendly app with no 559 00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:13,840 distractions and no shit coins. You can do a quick one time 560 00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:17,120 smash, buy or set up automatic purchases when you're stacking 561 00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:19,120 regularly. And here's the thing that 562 00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:22,640 matters most. Relay is 100% self custody. 563 00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:26,360 Every set you hold is yours, your keys, your coins. 564 00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:29,080 If you want to get started, download the app file in my link 565 00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:33,040 below or in the description and use code brum that's BR AM at 566 00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:35,280 checkout to get 10% of your fees. 567 00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:37,720 A huge shout out to Relay for sponsoring the show. 568 00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:39,960 Now let's continue. And I think the biggest 569 00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:42,560 characteristic that's changing with Bitcoin is when you look at 570 00:31:42,560 --> 00:31:46,160 its volatility declining and how that impacts major money 571 00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:48,880 managers and how they look at the asset as its volatility 572 00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:50,880 declines. Like we put in our annual report 573 00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:55,800 this chart that shows that, you know, in the US at least, NVIDIA 574 00:31:55,800 --> 00:32:00,040 stock and Tesla stock are owned by about 62% of the population. 575 00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:05,360 This is like a basically a savings vehicle for, you know, 576 00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:10,560 US investors. And the volatility of those 577 00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:14,440 assets is higher than Bitcoin over the past year. 578 00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:17,480 And everybody has this perception that Bitcoin is still 579 00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:19,760 this very risky asset. The reality is, is that what 580 00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:21,960 majority of people own today is actually riskier. 581 00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:25,360 And there's a lot of assets out there that we can look at the of 582 00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:27,120 exposure to that are going to have high volatility. 583 00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:28,320 There's a lot that's still lower. 584 00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:31,120 But the biggest thing is Bitcoin has this very persistent 585 00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:35,480 declining volatility and that only increases as it grows. 586 00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:38,200 It only becomes more likely that it becomes less volatile. 587 00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:41,000 And that gives it a deeper capital market, which makes it 588 00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:43,160 easier for people to large amounts of money to say like, 589 00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:46,200 oh, now that bitcoins, not just $2 trillion asset, now that 590 00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:50,600 bitcoins say A5 or $10 trillion asset, I can go liquidate $20 591 00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:53,480 billion worth of it tomorrow. And it's not going to move the 592 00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:56,920 market substantially like that. That's a really big deal for a 593 00:32:56,920 --> 00:32:58,920 nation state when they're adopting something. 594 00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:02,280 Gold today being at the size that it's at, I think around 595 00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:04,440 like 30 trillion, probably more because it keeps going up all 596 00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:06,600 the time. But you know, some very large 597 00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:08,800 market capitalization. You can be a nation state and 598 00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:11,480 say, I want to go liquidate $100 billion of gold and you're going 599 00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:14,840 to move the market much less drastic, particularly much less, 600 00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:17,240 and you would move a $2 trillion market like Bitcoin. 601 00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:20,440 Cause $100 billion worth of Bitcoin being sold is a very 602 00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:23,320 large amount compared to the supply and the demand. 603 00:33:23,680 --> 00:33:29,880 And so that's how I think a lot of these larger institutions are 604 00:33:29,880 --> 00:33:32,680 thinking about things. And that's one of the main 605 00:33:32,680 --> 00:33:37,440 things that we see is looking at Bitcoin today. 606 00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:41,200 It's kind of like, it's like looking at LeBron James when he 607 00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:44,480 was in high school. It's like everything he about 608 00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:48,520 him is historically significant in terms of a basketball player. 609 00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:52,120 He's just 14 years old. Imagine what he's going to be 610 00:33:52,120 --> 00:33:55,480 like when he's 20 years old. And that's kind of what it's 611 00:33:55,480 --> 00:33:57,720 like looking at Bitcoin today. It's just like everything about 612 00:33:57,720 --> 00:34:01,040 this asset is superior. It's just still small and young 613 00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:06,360 and it's still growing. So I I think that like that can 614 00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:09,480 cause an S curve and then it's like, OK, and then we get to 615 00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:11,880 this point where there's a huge run up of the price because now 616 00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:14,880 everybody's like, oh, this asset is much safer. 617 00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:18,040 It's kind of a safe haven or risk off type asset. 618 00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:20,400 And a bunch of money managers start putting, you know, not 619 00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:23,760 even a large amount, 1 to 2%. Go look at our annual report. 620 00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:26,400 We have all these charts that show how much 1 to 2% from a 621 00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:28,679 lot, a lot of these money pools could move the price of Bitcoin. 622 00:34:29,199 --> 00:34:32,520 And, and then that's an S curve. And then all of a sudden it's 623 00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:34,239 like, OK, well, a lot of people are going to start owning 624 00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:36,560 Bitcoin at this point. Now it's like, OK, well, we so 625 00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:40,000 many people own it. It's a lot easier to say pay me 626 00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:43,239 in Bitcoin because we're creating more on ramps for it. 627 00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:45,800 Most people are familiar with it, have some sort of amount of 628 00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:47,400 it. Most people start demanding it 629 00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:48,760 because they're late. They realize it. 630 00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:51,840 They're like, oh, this thing just went up, you know, 5-10 X. 631 00:34:52,159 --> 00:34:55,280 It was, you know, 2 to 5% of my wealth. 632 00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:59,240 Now it's maybe the biggest position I have in my wealth. 633 00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:03,360 I think about it all the time and people start saying, well, I 634 00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:06,440 want to be paid in Bitcoin. In our annual report, we wrote 635 00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:10,680 about like medium exchange adoption for Bitcoin. 636 00:35:10,680 --> 00:35:12,760 It's like people are like, well, nobody's ever going to want to 637 00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:15,080 spend their Bitcoin. And it's like, sure, I mean, I 638 00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:16,840 don't even want to spend my dollars today. 639 00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:20,960 I would like to pay you in dirt, but you won't accept dirt. 640 00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:24,200 You want something that you can go trade that's a marketable 641 00:35:24,200 --> 00:35:27,080 good. And and that's what's going to 642 00:35:27,080 --> 00:35:29,400 drive demand as a medium exchange is when people start to 643 00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:34,240 say no, pay me in Bitcoin, because that's a more valuable 644 00:35:34,240 --> 00:35:36,720 asset for me to be holding. And and I think that starts to 645 00:35:36,720 --> 00:35:38,400 happen at that store of value inflection point. 646 00:35:38,720 --> 00:35:41,400 And then, and then that's when you start to see an S curve 647 00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:44,160 happen with medium exchange type adoption. 648 00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:46,240 And then it's like when people start trading into so much. 649 00:35:46,760 --> 00:35:49,360 Well, now it's like, why don't we just start denominating our 650 00:35:49,360 --> 00:35:51,840 prices in it? And, and like those are kind of 651 00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:54,360 like the three main S curves we see with adoption over time. 652 00:35:54,640 --> 00:36:00,640 So it's like the point is, is today gradually is what creates 653 00:36:00,640 --> 00:36:05,000 suddenly like we want Bitcoin to be more gradual because that's 654 00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:08,880 what gives everybody who manages a lot of money the all the 655 00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:12,120 indications they need to justify within their mental framework. 656 00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:15,480 Oh, I should own a lot more of this because it is a lot safer. 657 00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:18,200 It is a lot more boring. And then it spikes a bunch and 658 00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:20,200 they're like, oh, well, I'm happy that happened too. 659 00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:24,240 It's kind of like we have to, like I was just saying this on 660 00:36:24,240 --> 00:36:28,040 Walker's podcast, like it's kind of like when you want a dog to 661 00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:33,760 take its meds and you have to kind of force feed it with a 662 00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:36,080 candy or wrap it in something that it likes to eat. 663 00:36:36,080 --> 00:36:39,040 It's like that's kind of what's happening is that bitcoins 664 00:36:39,040 --> 00:36:41,160 getting into mode where you don't, maybe you don't 665 00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:44,120 understand it the correct way, but you're still understanding 666 00:36:44,120 --> 00:36:45,560 in a way that you can actually digest. 667 00:36:45,560 --> 00:36:48,480 And that's happening for a lot of people around the world right 668 00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:51,280 now. Yeah, yeah, very interesting 669 00:36:51,280 --> 00:36:54,480 because I think when you really dive into Bitcoin and you 670 00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:59,720 understand the fundamentals, you understand that it is a very 671 00:36:59,720 --> 00:37:04,440 boring thing. Bitcoin, the promise of Bitcoin 672 00:37:05,240 --> 00:37:08,640 in my opinion, is literally, I'm just going to stay the same. 673 00:37:08,720 --> 00:37:11,800 These are my set of rules. I'm just going to chug along. 674 00:37:12,400 --> 00:37:15,040 You know, like Jeff Booth says, as long as it's decentralized 675 00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:20,440 and secure, the the blockchain grows, which makes it more 676 00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:23,320 trustworthy, predictable, secure, etcetera. 677 00:37:23,320 --> 00:37:26,880 And in essence, it's extremely boring fundamentally, I would, I 678 00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:32,080 would say, right, but maybe because it's boring, right? 679 00:37:32,080 --> 00:37:35,520 And it's so different than everything we know. 680 00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:38,040 It's a total opposite of Fiat money. 681 00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:43,080 You have this difference in understanding of not only people 682 00:37:43,080 --> 00:37:46,040 holding it, but also people trading it, you know, gambling 683 00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:51,520 leverage of all these things happening within the paradigm of 684 00:37:51,520 --> 00:37:57,680 Fiat money losing its value at also well consistently about 685 00:37:57,680 --> 00:38:00,360 that different speeds and and rates, right. 686 00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:05,040 So I think fundamentally the the boring part of Bitcoin is very 687 00:38:05,040 --> 00:38:06,960 good. And once you get it, you 688 00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:10,560 understand that it's way more trustworthy than any other 689 00:38:11,520 --> 00:38:14,040 option. You have to basically store your 690 00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:17,840 store your value. So it's low risk. 691 00:38:17,960 --> 00:38:24,120 But people seem to think that volatility is inherent risk to 692 00:38:24,120 --> 00:38:26,640 to Bitcoin, right? And they mix these things up as 693 00:38:26,640 --> 00:38:29,920 if it's like fundamentally risky, but they're actually 694 00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:35,320 talking about market risk. And I think you argued that the 695 00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:37,280 volatility is actually good, right? 696 00:38:37,280 --> 00:38:43,280 So that that stability is an illusion that is only created by 697 00:38:43,280 --> 00:38:45,800 manipulation. They don't really let it run 698 00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:50,240 free like in Fiat money, right? They set rates if capital 699 00:38:50,240 --> 00:38:53,360 controls and stuff like that. So there is not really a free 700 00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:57,320 market for money. But Bitcoin is a parallel and 701 00:38:57,320 --> 00:39:01,000 Bitcoin does act in this free market of money. 702 00:39:01,000 --> 00:39:03,720 People are trying to figure out what is this actually. 703 00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:10,560 So can you kind of talk through your, your thoughts around this 704 00:39:10,560 --> 00:39:14,880 volatility part and why you think or might think it's 705 00:39:14,880 --> 00:39:18,160 actually a healthy thing like how do how do you approach that? 706 00:39:19,040 --> 00:39:26,680 Yeah, Bitcoin volatility is when when I'm when I'm making this 707 00:39:26,680 --> 00:39:30,560 point, I'm thinking in terms of the world that thinks in terms 708 00:39:30,560 --> 00:39:35,560 of dollar denominated assets and, and how they're perceiving 709 00:39:35,560 --> 00:39:37,960 it. And, and I think that's like a 710 00:39:37,960 --> 00:39:40,360 really it's kind of an important distinction. 711 00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:47,840 I think the best way to consider why it matters is that the the 712 00:39:47,840 --> 00:39:53,480 perception so important is what I think what I like the black 713 00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:57,640 pills of finance. Like when I was a, you know, 714 00:39:57,640 --> 00:40:00,520 budding undergraduate in college, getting my finance and 715 00:40:00,520 --> 00:40:03,240 economics degree and I was I was learning about all of it. 716 00:40:03,240 --> 00:40:05,400 And you spend all this time kind of. 717 00:40:06,040 --> 00:40:10,560 Learning about these models and these concepts that we've 718 00:40:10,560 --> 00:40:15,280 constructed around here's how markets work, here's how they're 719 00:40:15,280 --> 00:40:18,640 supposed to behave. And, and you know, there's 720 00:40:18,640 --> 00:40:22,280 different camps of economists and theorists and philosophers 721 00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:25,560 or whatever you want to call them who have different 722 00:40:25,560 --> 00:40:27,560 perspectives on what that should be. 723 00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:30,840 And then we look at history and we kind of see how things have 724 00:40:30,840 --> 00:40:35,040 behaved. And, and I think like the real 725 00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:38,640 black pillar on finances, like when you get this education, 726 00:40:39,160 --> 00:40:43,080 you, you think that there is a should, that there is some sort 727 00:40:43,080 --> 00:40:44,640 of thing things should adhere to. 728 00:40:44,640 --> 00:40:48,600 And, and you get, and eventually you kind of realize that it's a 729 00:40:48,600 --> 00:40:50,840 mode of idealism. Like I was trained as a value 730 00:40:50,840 --> 00:40:53,280 investor and there's all these fundamental tenants that value 731 00:40:53,280 --> 00:40:57,440 investors kind of believe in. The reality is is that since I 732 00:40:57,440 --> 00:41:00,920 graduated college would have been a bad idea for me of to 733 00:41:00,920 --> 00:41:03,600 like truly been a value investor for a long period of time. 734 00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:07,160 A lot of other types of investors made more money who 735 00:41:07,160 --> 00:41:09,760 didn't adhere to those fundamental tenants. 736 00:41:10,040 --> 00:41:12,720 And the reality is, is that because the system that value 737 00:41:12,720 --> 00:41:16,680 investing was designed to, you know, capture wealth from over 738 00:41:16,680 --> 00:41:21,280 the long term isn't really the system that we're in today. 739 00:41:21,360 --> 00:41:25,000 And the reality is, is that markets behave in response to, 740 00:41:25,320 --> 00:41:27,680 you know, endogenous and exogenous factors that are 741 00:41:27,680 --> 00:41:30,880 emerging at any point in time. And those things are changing 742 00:41:30,880 --> 00:41:32,760 with the political environment, with the geopolitical 743 00:41:32,760 --> 00:41:38,760 environment, with consumer preferences and, and the black 744 00:41:38,760 --> 00:41:42,760 pills that like really today, the way that markets work is 745 00:41:42,760 --> 00:41:46,320 based on narrative. And, and once you once you kind 746 00:41:46,320 --> 00:41:50,400 of like really embody that, I think it helps you perceive how 747 00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:55,760 things work in this type of an economy where persisting credit 748 00:41:56,200 --> 00:42:00,080 and exacerbation of, you know, consumption and investment, 749 00:42:00,400 --> 00:42:02,840 things start to just depart from reality. 750 00:42:02,840 --> 00:42:04,880 They depart from what we think they should be. 751 00:42:05,360 --> 00:42:09,800 And the result is, you know, much more speculative behavior 752 00:42:09,800 --> 00:42:13,200 and these gambling markets and you know, GameStop and shit 753 00:42:13,200 --> 00:42:17,640 coins and, and, you know, overspending and credit card 754 00:42:17,640 --> 00:42:22,520 debt and all of these things that I think are really just a 755 00:42:22,520 --> 00:42:25,120 product of this like misalignment incentives. 756 00:42:25,120 --> 00:42:28,280 So like when you think about markets today and you could go 757 00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:31,360 run a bottle or whatever and say this asset should be worth that, 758 00:42:31,640 --> 00:42:33,720 the reality you're going to, you're going to be a lot more on 759 00:42:33,720 --> 00:42:35,840 point. If you could say, oh, I know 760 00:42:35,840 --> 00:42:38,400 what the narrative of this asset is going to do in the next year 761 00:42:38,400 --> 00:42:40,280 or two and how that'll be perceived. 762 00:42:40,640 --> 00:42:43,320 And I think that that's how a lot of people are making money 763 00:42:43,320 --> 00:42:45,840 in markets today is kind of based on this misalignment 764 00:42:45,840 --> 00:42:49,160 between what should be and what the reality of perception starts 765 00:42:49,160 --> 00:42:55,400 to become. So that I think is an important 766 00:42:55,400 --> 00:42:58,280 aspect for what we think about bitcoins volatility. 767 00:42:58,280 --> 00:42:59,880 It's like when you think about the world from a Bitcoin 768 00:42:59,880 --> 00:43:03,200 standard, these things don't matter to you as much. 769 00:43:03,680 --> 00:43:07,600 But to people who still think in these terms, certain narratives 770 00:43:07,600 --> 00:43:10,400 are very important to them for them to buy Bitcoin. 771 00:43:10,400 --> 00:43:12,840 And it's like whether you buy Bitcoin because you want to get 772 00:43:12,840 --> 00:43:17,160 rich, whether you buy Bitcoin because you want freedom for 773 00:43:17,160 --> 00:43:19,800 society and for the world, whether you buy Bitcoin for any 774 00:43:19,800 --> 00:43:21,680 reason. Well, what matters to me is that 775 00:43:21,680 --> 00:43:25,160 you're buying Bitcoin and whatever gets people to start 776 00:43:25,160 --> 00:43:27,120 buying Bitcoin, I think is generally a good thing. 777 00:43:27,120 --> 00:43:28,720 Eventually they might learn the right reasons. 778 00:43:28,720 --> 00:43:30,960 And there's tons of people that do the right thing for the wrong 779 00:43:30,960 --> 00:43:32,400 reasons. I mean, when you think about how 780 00:43:32,400 --> 00:43:34,960 people behave in their lives today to the point about like 781 00:43:34,960 --> 00:43:39,760 the lack of agency, most people do things because somebody they 782 00:43:39,760 --> 00:43:42,680 know and trust told them to do it or because their parents did 783 00:43:42,680 --> 00:43:45,520 it that way and they never really asked questions about it. 784 00:43:45,840 --> 00:43:48,000 And and that's how the majority of people are going to end up 785 00:43:48,000 --> 00:43:49,600 owning Bitcoin. The majority of people are going 786 00:43:49,600 --> 00:43:52,080 to do it just because most people around them do it. 787 00:43:52,600 --> 00:43:55,120 And and it's really this early adopter, a group that's pushing 788 00:43:55,120 --> 00:43:57,560 these narratives and then big money comes in because it fits 789 00:43:57,560 --> 00:44:00,760 into their Fiat narrative. And their Fiat narrative says it 790 00:44:00,760 --> 00:44:04,400 needs to be a risk off asset for it to be a reasonable allocation 791 00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:09,000 within my commodity portfolio. And, and I'm going to wait and 792 00:44:09,120 --> 00:44:13,240 see until that happens. And and they're not the movers 793 00:44:13,240 --> 00:44:16,560 and shakers necessarily that are ever going to make outside as 794 00:44:16,560 --> 00:44:19,160 well through the people that wait until a lot of the wealth 795 00:44:19,160 --> 00:44:21,000 has been had and then they come in towards the end. 796 00:44:21,520 --> 00:44:23,640 But that's just like the reality that we're dealing with. 797 00:44:23,840 --> 00:44:26,720 So it comes down to just like difference in perception. 798 00:44:26,760 --> 00:44:30,160 And that's how I think is less in terms of like what is and 799 00:44:30,160 --> 00:44:32,680 what's right and what happened in Weimar Germany when the 800 00:44:32,680 --> 00:44:34,600 currency was collapsing. Does that mean Bitcoin is going 801 00:44:34,600 --> 00:44:36,000 to become more volatile at some point? 802 00:44:36,000 --> 00:44:37,080 It's just like, yeah, sure. Maybe. 803 00:44:37,240 --> 00:44:40,040 But when I think over the next few years and I think about very 804 00:44:40,040 --> 00:44:44,760 practical, like who are guys who can push a button and own 805 00:44:45,040 --> 00:44:48,280 hundreds of millions of dollars of Bitcoin, and these are the 806 00:44:48,280 --> 00:44:50,680 narratives that matter to them before they push that button. 807 00:44:51,480 --> 00:44:55,680 Maybe this was already an answer to to this question, but I I 808 00:44:55,680 --> 00:44:59,440 wrote down some Eric Yakes hot takes from your from your 809 00:44:59,440 --> 00:45:03,680 Twitter and one of the posts that I really liked was the 810 00:45:03,680 --> 00:45:05,920 middle of the bell curve is selling to the tips. 811 00:45:05,920 --> 00:45:10,560 Don't mid curve Bitcoin. And I just wanted to ask you why 812 00:45:10,560 --> 00:45:14,000 is it so hard to grok Bitcoin? Maybe your answer is, you know, 813 00:45:14,000 --> 00:45:18,680 people just are comfortable in their own paradigm and, and, and 814 00:45:18,680 --> 00:45:20,840 when there's no need to look outside of that. 815 00:45:20,960 --> 00:45:25,600 Now, maybe that's just it, but my angle on this question was 816 00:45:25,600 --> 00:45:31,280 more kind of like the, the size of the idea. 817 00:45:31,720 --> 00:45:35,040 I think more, but I I wonder what do you think? 818 00:45:36,160 --> 00:45:43,080 It's interesting the size I, I, I actually, I think that's a 819 00:45:43,080 --> 00:45:46,280 really good point. Like Bitcoin exists at the 820 00:45:46,280 --> 00:45:50,600 confluence of various technologies, various different 821 00:45:50,600 --> 00:45:53,800 fields of study. And that's kind of how I think 822 00:45:53,800 --> 00:45:55,880 about its size. It's like a really big idea that 823 00:45:55,880 --> 00:45:57,360 impacts a lot of different things. 824 00:45:57,760 --> 00:46:01,040 And, and because of that, it, it's like when you're starting a 825 00:46:01,040 --> 00:46:04,520 new job and they call it like drinking from a fire hose. 826 00:46:04,520 --> 00:46:07,840 There's so much that you have to learn that it gets really hard 827 00:46:07,840 --> 00:46:10,120 and confusing and you get, you know, it's so much harder. 828 00:46:10,240 --> 00:46:12,760 Whereas if it's like very one focused, very simple thing to 829 00:46:12,760 --> 00:46:14,600 understand, then it's a lot easier to grasp something. 830 00:46:14,920 --> 00:46:16,640 But yeah, you're right. It's such a big idea. 831 00:46:16,640 --> 00:46:20,120 It's so complex that people can often get, you know, analysis 832 00:46:20,120 --> 00:46:23,080 paralysis or, you know, lost in the detail and they ultimately 833 00:46:23,280 --> 00:46:26,360 try to, you know, prevents them from fully learning it because 834 00:46:26,360 --> 00:46:28,880 they realize how long the road's going to be to getting to that. 835 00:46:29,880 --> 00:46:33,040 Like most people in Bitcoin get it because we're a demographic 836 00:46:33,040 --> 00:46:37,480 that was meant to get it. You know, we are primarily 837 00:46:37,480 --> 00:46:42,760 millennial aged men who had some sort of interest in owning 838 00:46:42,800 --> 00:46:45,160 assets. And and like these are things 839 00:46:45,160 --> 00:46:47,760 that, like our type of demographic is naturally 840 00:46:47,760 --> 00:46:49,600 inclined to do. There's all these other 841 00:46:49,600 --> 00:46:53,360 demographics that just don't know anything about, you know, 842 00:46:54,040 --> 00:46:58,800 any sort of investing like, you know, I'll, I'll talk to people 843 00:46:58,800 --> 00:47:02,200 all the time where it's just like they'll think Bitcoins like 844 00:47:02,200 --> 00:47:05,360 a stock or like even when it comes to financial literacy, you 845 00:47:05,360 --> 00:47:07,880 know, they're clues of what a stock really is. 846 00:47:07,880 --> 00:47:10,200 It's like this thing that maybe their boyfriend does or 847 00:47:10,200 --> 00:47:13,160 something. And, and I think that's just 848 00:47:13,160 --> 00:47:16,000 kind of the reality is like we're just, it's a, it's a very 849 00:47:16,000 --> 00:47:19,280 big idea coming from a very small world. 850 00:47:19,840 --> 00:47:25,160 And, and because of that, it's something where the vast 851 00:47:25,160 --> 00:47:28,240 majority of people are never going to care to really learn 852 00:47:28,240 --> 00:47:31,880 about it. And and they're really just, 853 00:47:31,960 --> 00:47:36,200 it's the social proof around them that's eventually going to 854 00:47:36,240 --> 00:47:39,440 push them to do it. Like in the same way that the 855 00:47:39,440 --> 00:47:42,600 vast majority of these people, you know, want to own a home or 856 00:47:42,600 --> 00:47:45,600 want to invest in real estate. And the reason they do it is 857 00:47:45,600 --> 00:47:47,960 because, you know, their parents did it and their parents told 858 00:47:47,960 --> 00:47:50,240 them to do it. They never looked at the 859 00:47:50,240 --> 00:47:52,240 historical price returns of real estate. 860 00:47:52,560 --> 00:47:55,720 They don't understand the operating costs of having it. 861 00:47:55,720 --> 00:47:57,800 They don't understand the tax implications. 862 00:47:58,120 --> 00:48:03,200 You know, they don't understand, you know, what geographies and 863 00:48:03,200 --> 00:48:05,040 markets, you know, they're, they're not looking at any of 864 00:48:05,040 --> 00:48:06,120 this. They're just behaving in a way 865 00:48:06,120 --> 00:48:07,280 that somebody else told them to do. 866 00:48:07,280 --> 00:48:09,400 And it's generally accepted within their community and 867 00:48:09,400 --> 00:48:12,760 society. And, and I I think that's kind 868 00:48:12,760 --> 00:48:16,440 of like the biggest reason. But the reality is, is that, 869 00:48:16,440 --> 00:48:20,280 yeah, it just, it's a very hard thing to understand. 870 00:48:20,600 --> 00:48:24,240 I quit my job and basically spent a year of my life to get 871 00:48:24,240 --> 00:48:26,160 deep into it. That was after I already kind of 872 00:48:26,160 --> 00:48:29,920 got it enough to want to quit my job, spend another year, you 873 00:48:29,920 --> 00:48:33,600 know, reading and writing a book to still be like, OK, there's so 874 00:48:33,600 --> 00:48:36,040 much where I have to learn. And, you know, now I have a 875 00:48:36,040 --> 00:48:38,440 venture firm and I work in this industry every day. 876 00:48:38,840 --> 00:48:41,920 And all I think about is how little I know about everything 877 00:48:41,920 --> 00:48:45,680 that's going on with it. And there there's this. 878 00:48:45,720 --> 00:48:47,000 Yeah. It's just, it's a, it's a 879 00:48:47,000 --> 00:48:48,920 revolutionary movement. It's a new technology. 880 00:48:48,920 --> 00:48:52,480 It's impacting everything. And very few people are ever 881 00:48:52,480 --> 00:48:54,760 going to totally, you know, get a comprehensive understanding of 882 00:48:54,760 --> 00:48:57,720 it. Yeah, When you think about the 883 00:48:57,720 --> 00:49:03,920 future you just mentioned, you know, Fiat money will exist for 884 00:49:03,920 --> 00:49:08,120 some time, banks, etcetera. Also, I mean a lot of people in 885 00:49:08,120 --> 00:49:11,280 Bitcoin they talk about, you know, and the Fed, they think 886 00:49:11,280 --> 00:49:14,280 banks will disappear. I think you have a bit more 887 00:49:14,280 --> 00:49:19,800 nuanced view on like free banking and a free market on 888 00:49:20,240 --> 00:49:22,560 monies. Let's say we get to a hyper 889 00:49:22,560 --> 00:49:26,760 bitcoinized world. Like do do banks still exist? 890 00:49:26,760 --> 00:49:30,400 Does credit still exist? Will people still, although I 891 00:49:30,400 --> 00:49:34,680 think it's a dumb idea, but try fractional reserve banking on a 892 00:49:34,680 --> 00:49:37,440 Bitcoin standard, right? Like they can try to create 893 00:49:37,440 --> 00:49:41,120 paper, but I don't think they can create as much abstracted 894 00:49:41,120 --> 00:49:43,960 layers as they can create now. Yeah. 895 00:49:43,960 --> 00:49:45,240 What? What does that look like? 896 00:49:45,920 --> 00:49:51,520 So when, when answering these types of questions, I would all, 897 00:49:51,520 --> 00:49:57,240 I think we're all often see people kind of miss the, the 898 00:49:57,280 --> 00:50:02,720 bigger picture is you don't want to think about these questions 899 00:50:02,840 --> 00:50:06,560 from your perspective. You, you don't want to think 900 00:50:06,560 --> 00:50:11,400 about from whether or not you would want it or whether or not 901 00:50:11,400 --> 00:50:13,240 it's something that needs to exist. 902 00:50:13,240 --> 00:50:15,280 That's probably the key thing needs to exist. 903 00:50:15,280 --> 00:50:17,800 You'd be like in a Bitcoin world, maybe we don't need 904 00:50:17,800 --> 00:50:21,400 something like credit. The reality is, is will the 905 00:50:21,400 --> 00:50:27,680 market demand it and, and will the substitutes in the market be 906 00:50:27,680 --> 00:50:29,920 better? And, and I think when you think 907 00:50:29,920 --> 00:50:33,680 about it from that framing, it's like, OK, so will the market 908 00:50:33,680 --> 00:50:37,600 demand it? Well, what is credit? 909 00:50:37,600 --> 00:50:40,800 Why would you want credit? And, and when you contrast 910 00:50:40,800 --> 00:50:46,400 something like credit with Bitcoin money or scarce 911 00:50:46,400 --> 00:50:50,920 commodities as a form of money, it's a way that you can take 912 00:50:50,920 --> 00:50:54,680 value created from the past and carry it with you into the 913 00:50:54,680 --> 00:50:58,400 present. And, and what credit is, is not 914 00:50:58,400 --> 00:51:00,920 the same thing. Credit is a way to take value 915 00:51:00,920 --> 00:51:04,640 that could be created in the future and carry it to the 916 00:51:04,640 --> 00:51:06,360 present. It's a, it's a different 917 00:51:06,360 --> 00:51:09,760 function. And, and where they overlap is 918 00:51:09,760 --> 00:51:14,200 in that we need to facilitate trade against people in some 919 00:51:14,200 --> 00:51:17,240 form. And depending on the situation 920 00:51:17,240 --> 00:51:21,680 one person's in what they have a lot of value they've accumulated 921 00:51:21,680 --> 00:51:25,000 from the past, it might make more sense for them to use that 922 00:51:25,000 --> 00:51:28,640 to conduct trade. Or if they don't have that, it 923 00:51:28,640 --> 00:51:31,680 might make a lot more sense for them to use value they might 924 00:51:31,680 --> 00:51:34,480 create in the future. And and that's based on this 925 00:51:34,480 --> 00:51:37,200 constant market balance, the different market actors are 926 00:51:37,200 --> 00:51:38,760 acting around at any point in time. 927 00:51:40,600 --> 00:51:44,360 So for that reason, I think it's like very fundamentally credit 928 00:51:44,360 --> 00:51:50,160 will exist in less people have whatever they want, whenever 929 00:51:50,160 --> 00:51:51,760 they want it. Like if we do get into a true 930 00:51:51,760 --> 00:51:54,000 form of abundance where the marginal cost of production of 931 00:51:54,000 --> 00:51:56,840 any good or service is basically zero, then sure, like credit 932 00:51:56,840 --> 00:51:58,600 won't exist. Money's not going to matter 933 00:51:58,600 --> 00:52:00,000 either. You know, it's there. 934 00:52:00,200 --> 00:52:02,480 It's something where everybody can just like it, snap their 935 00:52:02,480 --> 00:52:04,440 fingers and have what they want. We don't need to trade anymore. 936 00:52:05,840 --> 00:52:07,360 I think that's really the argument. 937 00:52:07,640 --> 00:52:11,720 I think that the fractional reserve argument gets a little 938 00:52:11,720 --> 00:52:14,080 bit more complicated and I can kind of like, I'll try to keep 939 00:52:14,080 --> 00:52:17,720 it a bit high level and not dive into it too much, but fractional 940 00:52:17,720 --> 00:52:21,200 reserve is just a means of creating credit. 941 00:52:21,200 --> 00:52:25,240 It's a means that has existed in markets historically. 942 00:52:25,680 --> 00:52:31,400 So it's not that I'm, I don't advocate for fractional reserve. 943 00:52:31,400 --> 00:52:34,320 What I try to do is try to anticipate what's going to 944 00:52:34,320 --> 00:52:39,320 emerge in a market and why. And, and the best I think way 945 00:52:39,320 --> 00:52:41,240 that we can look at that is just like, OK, well, how is 946 00:52:41,240 --> 00:52:44,800 fractional reserve emerge historically and, and fractional 947 00:52:44,800 --> 00:52:48,480 reserve, when I go back to that talking about the Goldsmith 948 00:52:48,480 --> 00:52:51,640 bankers in London, it was a natural phenomenon that emerged 949 00:52:51,640 --> 00:52:55,960 in private markets. And then we also had famous free 950 00:52:55,960 --> 00:52:59,720 banking systems that have emerged throughout history, 951 00:52:59,720 --> 00:53:03,680 primarily in like 18th century through the 20th century. 952 00:53:04,160 --> 00:53:06,320 And you know, Scotland and Canada are kind of like the two 953 00:53:06,320 --> 00:53:08,880 primary ones that are cited, but there is there's a multitude of 954 00:53:08,880 --> 00:53:11,240 others and you know, none of these systems really perfect. 955 00:53:11,680 --> 00:53:15,400 But what we can say about them is that we had fractional 956 00:53:15,400 --> 00:53:18,440 reserve systems that emerged in private markets and were chosen 957 00:53:18,440 --> 00:53:20,120 naturally in those market dynamics. 958 00:53:20,120 --> 00:53:22,600 Now, markets could be very different today. 959 00:53:22,600 --> 00:53:25,360 And I think the argument against something like fractional 960 00:53:25,360 --> 00:53:28,680 reserve emerging today is that, well, people in this Goldsmith 961 00:53:28,680 --> 00:53:34,320 banker system, it was so much more valuable for them to trade 962 00:53:34,440 --> 00:53:37,520 in something like paper because lugging gold around was so much 963 00:53:37,520 --> 00:53:42,920 harder to do in this economy. I, I think you could, you know, 964 00:53:42,920 --> 00:53:45,040 you can make a very similar argument today, like one of the 965 00:53:45,040 --> 00:53:48,000 arguments against gold bugs saying like, oh, you know, it's 966 00:53:48,000 --> 00:53:51,040 a buy gold as our hedge against inflation. 967 00:53:51,040 --> 00:53:53,000 It's just like, well, it's not permissionless because you can't 968 00:53:53,000 --> 00:53:55,000 actually conduct trade in the modern economy with it. 969 00:53:55,480 --> 00:53:57,120 Bitcoin, something where you can do that. 970 00:53:57,480 --> 00:54:00,680 So Bitcoin should take the market over time because it's 971 00:54:00,680 --> 00:54:03,400 actually a substitute. Gold isn't a substitute. 972 00:54:04,640 --> 00:54:06,840 It's just kind of a path dependency at this point. 973 00:54:07,320 --> 00:54:13,920 And, and I think that like from from that perspective, when when 974 00:54:13,920 --> 00:54:18,240 we think about how fractional reserve could be emerging in the 975 00:54:18,240 --> 00:54:22,080 future system, the questions like will the market demand it? 976 00:54:22,560 --> 00:54:26,840 And, and that comes down to, OK, well, if we look at these prior 977 00:54:26,840 --> 00:54:31,600 systems and say there is basically this, there was enough 978 00:54:31,600 --> 00:54:36,520 reason for people willing to accept that trade off or there 979 00:54:36,520 --> 00:54:39,720 wasn't enough information transparency for them to be 980 00:54:39,720 --> 00:54:43,800 aware of it in the first place. And so I think the argument to 981 00:54:43,800 --> 00:54:46,240 make of like, will fractional reserve banking emerge on 982 00:54:46,240 --> 00:54:48,480 Bitcoin or not? It's kind of based on one of 983 00:54:48,480 --> 00:54:50,840 those two things. Is there going to be some sort 984 00:54:50,840 --> 00:54:54,240 of inordinate amount of benefit that people are receiving from 985 00:54:54,240 --> 00:54:57,240 saying, oh, no, it's better for me to store my Bitcoin and take 986 00:54:57,240 --> 00:55:00,880 a receipt here. And, and I, it's a lot cheaper 987 00:55:00,880 --> 00:55:03,200 for me because they make money off of senior Ridge from 988 00:55:03,200 --> 00:55:06,720 fractional reserve banking. So this system has been 989 00:55:06,720 --> 00:55:08,680 operating that way for a long period of time and I'm 990 00:55:08,680 --> 00:55:11,320 comfortable with it, right. Like, is that one mode of 991 00:55:11,320 --> 00:55:14,000 thinking? And, or the other question is, 992 00:55:14,000 --> 00:55:22,960 is like, is, is the fractional reserve something that people 993 00:55:22,960 --> 00:55:25,880 just simply still are not aware of and it's just happening in 994 00:55:25,880 --> 00:55:30,160 the background the whole time? So like do you have to make an 995 00:55:30,160 --> 00:55:31,800 argument that information is going to get a lot more 996 00:55:31,800 --> 00:55:36,080 transparent and you have to make an argument that credit emerging 997 00:55:36,080 --> 00:55:40,400 through fractional reserve is not as good as credit emerging 998 00:55:40,400 --> 00:55:42,200 in some sort of other way. And I think you could say it's 999 00:55:42,200 --> 00:55:46,760 not as good, like it's just another form of credit. 1000 00:55:46,760 --> 00:55:49,680 I can make a credit, I can make a loan out of a fully reserved 1001 00:55:49,680 --> 00:55:52,280 system. That system just limits how much 1002 00:55:52,280 --> 00:55:55,840 credit can come into the system because once the total amount of 1003 00:55:55,840 --> 00:55:59,200 reserves exist and all of those have been lent, then it's like, 1004 00:55:59,200 --> 00:56:01,240 OK, there's no more. We can't fractionalize it in 1005 00:56:01,240 --> 00:56:04,960 theory, right? And so fractional reserve allows 1006 00:56:04,960 --> 00:56:07,080 you to expand that. And then fiat's like, you know, 1007 00:56:07,080 --> 00:56:09,200 the final boss of there is no limit. 1008 00:56:09,200 --> 00:56:11,200 You can expand it as far as you can basically until 1009 00:56:11,200 --> 00:56:14,720 hyperinflation. And yeah, so it's a question of 1010 00:56:14,720 --> 00:56:17,040 what the market will accept. And I don't think I'm like 1011 00:56:17,040 --> 00:56:18,680 intelligent enough to say one way or another. 1012 00:56:18,680 --> 00:56:21,080 I can just like, you know, way out the framework. 1013 00:56:21,680 --> 00:56:27,440 But I do think that the burden of proof is on Bitcoiners to say 1014 00:56:27,440 --> 00:56:32,880 that it won't, because history tells us that it will. 1015 00:56:33,480 --> 00:56:39,000 And we need to build technologies that don't that 1016 00:56:39,000 --> 00:56:42,000 work without fractional reserve. Something like Lightning that 1017 00:56:42,000 --> 00:56:45,880 can work without fractional reserve and be just as good as a 1018 00:56:45,880 --> 00:56:49,120 centralized alternative. If we can build something that's 1019 00:56:49,120 --> 00:56:53,760 like a fully trustless peg in for Bitcoin and the user 1020 00:56:53,760 --> 00:56:57,560 experience and the cost of sending transactions is just as 1021 00:56:57,560 --> 00:57:00,840 good as a centralized institution doing that, then I 1022 00:57:00,840 --> 00:57:04,320 think the the argument for their ever being fractional reserve is 1023 00:57:04,320 --> 00:57:08,080 very, very low. Yeah, I this is one of the 1024 00:57:08,080 --> 00:57:11,280 topics that I find most interesting. 1025 00:57:11,280 --> 00:57:15,160 But it's really hard to predict what that's going to look like, 1026 00:57:15,160 --> 00:57:17,560 right? And I think I agree with you 1027 00:57:17,560 --> 00:57:21,240 when you say there there's a limit that doesn't really make 1028 00:57:21,240 --> 00:57:24,680 sense, you know, if you want to use credit for people to be 1029 00:57:24,680 --> 00:57:27,720 productive and build things. And then on the other side, you 1030 00:57:27,720 --> 00:57:31,560 could also say like fractional reserve banking has actually 1031 00:57:31,560 --> 00:57:34,760 worked up until a certain point, right? 1032 00:57:34,760 --> 00:57:39,880 It, it worked and it's created growth and increased 1033 00:57:39,880 --> 00:57:42,720 productivity, people actually doing things in, in, in the 1034 00:57:42,720 --> 00:57:48,200 productivity sense, right? But fundamentally it's it's 1035 00:57:48,200 --> 00:57:53,360 flawed if you don't put on an artificial break, which perhaps 1036 00:57:53,360 --> 00:57:57,800 is naturally occurring on, on a, on a harder money or limited 1037 00:57:58,400 --> 00:58:02,520 money standards. But yeah, maybe that's where the 1038 00:58:02,520 --> 00:58:06,320 where the moral hazard or the OR the the principal agent dilemma 1039 00:58:06,320 --> 00:58:10,920 come, You know, where that comes in again, because, yeah, am I 1040 00:58:10,920 --> 00:58:13,040 the person that's going to put my foot on a break? 1041 00:58:13,680 --> 00:58:16,600 You know, if I'm profiting from being part of the system, 1042 00:58:16,600 --> 00:58:18,840 probably not, right. So I think that's where that 1043 00:58:18,840 --> 00:58:21,080 comes from. But yeah, I think interesting 1044 00:58:21,080 --> 00:58:23,760 answer and just something to to ponder. 1045 00:58:23,760 --> 00:58:26,120 It's really hard to to look at the future like that. 1046 00:58:27,240 --> 00:58:30,400 I'm I'm looking at the time I do, I, I have some Eric Yikes. 1047 00:58:30,400 --> 00:58:32,240 Hot takes still from your Twitter. 1048 00:58:32,240 --> 00:58:36,720 So maybe maybe we can go through them in, in, in kind of a quick, 1049 00:58:36,800 --> 00:58:39,920 a quick way because I I really want to, I really want to get 1050 00:58:39,920 --> 00:58:40,840 your take on this. OK. 1051 00:58:41,240 --> 00:58:44,080 When I say Bitcoin trades like a NASDAQ stock, what is your 1052 00:58:44,080 --> 00:58:44,640 reply? Yeah. 1053 00:58:45,800 --> 00:58:50,680 I mean, yeah, it's true. So if other people don't 1054 00:58:50,680 --> 00:58:53,920 understand Bitcoin, I'm going to be bearish. 1055 00:58:54,000 --> 00:58:57,760 Can can we I'm, I'm, I'm alluding to someone who talked 1056 00:58:57,760 --> 00:59:00,880 about Bitcoin like this in a, in a in a recent time. 1057 00:59:00,880 --> 00:59:06,160 And I just think it's interesting that if other people 1058 00:59:06,160 --> 00:59:08,840 don't understand Bitcoin and they trade it like an NASDAQ 1059 00:59:08,840 --> 00:59:11,640 stock, right or they don't understand it. 1060 00:59:11,640 --> 00:59:15,640 So I become bearish because the path is is slower than what I 1061 00:59:15,640 --> 00:59:18,680 would want. I would say that this is a 1062 00:59:18,680 --> 00:59:21,760 signal that we are very early. What do you think? 1063 00:59:22,400 --> 00:59:26,800 Yeah. I think it's a signal of don't 1064 00:59:26,840 --> 00:59:31,560 think about things from a trader's perspective that like 1065 00:59:32,400 --> 00:59:36,480 it is obvious that the vast majority of money that's been 1066 00:59:36,480 --> 00:59:42,040 made is from people that have held this asset and other assets 1067 00:59:42,040 --> 00:59:46,120 for extended periods of time and thinking about like the ups and 1068 00:59:46,120 --> 00:59:48,320 downs. And, you know, if you zoom out 1069 00:59:48,320 --> 00:59:52,400 enough and you look at Bitcoin, it doesn't trade like a NASDAQ 1070 00:59:52,400 --> 00:59:53,800 stock. But what people mean is that 1071 00:59:53,800 --> 00:59:56,200 over some shorter periods of time, it does. 1072 00:59:56,200 --> 00:59:58,360 But then there are these huge periods where Bitcoin runs up a 1073 00:59:58,360 --> 01:00:01,960 bunch in price. And yeah, no NASDAQ stock has 1074 01:00:01,960 --> 01:00:04,360 been close to that in comparison. 1075 01:00:04,920 --> 01:00:07,360 It's the best performing asset in measurable history. 1076 01:00:07,600 --> 01:00:11,920 So over a long period of time it trades like the best performing 1077 01:00:11,920 --> 01:00:16,760 asset measurable history so far. Yeah, on a recent podcast, I 1078 01:00:16,760 --> 01:00:19,720 heard you say nobody knows why Bitcoin crashed, and that's 1079 01:00:19,720 --> 01:00:23,320 exactly why you should buy it. What's the biggest What's the 1080 01:00:23,320 --> 01:00:26,520 biggest signal for you that is flashing right in front of 1081 01:00:26,760 --> 01:00:30,840 everyone's eyes? Well, what do you mean in terms 1082 01:00:30,840 --> 01:00:33,680 of like? Is it like what is so obvious to 1083 01:00:33,680 --> 01:00:38,600 you that you should buy Bitcoin that other people might not see? 1084 01:00:39,360 --> 01:00:42,200 Read our report. Look at the size of all the 1085 01:00:42,200 --> 01:00:44,000 potential buyers that are all on the edge. 1086 01:00:44,000 --> 01:00:47,000 There's conversations being had in board meetings, there's 1087 01:00:47,000 --> 01:00:49,240 conversations at government institutions. 1088 01:00:49,600 --> 01:00:52,640 All these people are looking into a Bitcoin strategy since 1089 01:00:52,640 --> 01:00:54,840 the past year. And if you look at the size of 1090 01:00:54,840 --> 01:00:58,280 this, these pools of capital, very, very small percentages of 1091 01:00:58,280 --> 01:01:00,880 that money can move the market a Bitcoin drastically. 1092 01:01:01,080 --> 01:01:05,080 Bitcoin is always an everywhere the headline announcement away 1093 01:01:05,080 --> 01:01:08,240 from a massive run up in price. And and that's when the vast 1094 01:01:08,240 --> 01:01:10,560 majority of your gains in Bitcoin come from are from this 1095 01:01:10,560 --> 01:01:12,600 very small percentage of days when that happens. 1096 01:01:12,920 --> 01:01:16,080 So you sit and you wait for that to happen and you understand the 1097 01:01:16,080 --> 01:01:18,160 fundamentals and you know that it's going to continue to 1098 01:01:18,160 --> 01:01:21,360 happen. All right, 22 questions to wrap 1099 01:01:21,360 --> 01:01:25,280 up. I think we're arguably in a very 1100 01:01:25,280 --> 01:01:31,360 dangerous periods where we're by some luck or or not, I don't 1101 01:01:31,360 --> 01:01:34,240 know, we're living in a transition from a dying field 1102 01:01:34,240 --> 01:01:39,640 system to a new system and a lot of different people blocks, 1103 01:01:39,640 --> 01:01:46,480 alliances attempting to, you know, be be the winner of 1104 01:01:46,480 --> 01:01:49,360 whatever comes after. We obviously have Bitcoin. 1105 01:01:49,360 --> 01:01:51,040 That's what what we are looking at. 1106 01:01:51,400 --> 01:01:54,880 What is your biggest fear for the next 5 to 10 years? 1107 01:01:54,880 --> 01:01:56,240 And also what's your biggest hope? 1108 01:01:56,840 --> 01:02:02,760 My, my biggest fear is Bitcoin becomes just like a digital 1109 01:02:02,760 --> 01:02:07,560 gold. If enough of the demand flows 1110 01:02:07,560 --> 01:02:11,040 through and not enough of through, you know, financial 1111 01:02:11,040 --> 01:02:17,240 products and not enough happens through creating technologies 1112 01:02:17,240 --> 01:02:20,440 that allow it to be freedom money, then I think that that 1113 01:02:20,440 --> 01:02:23,120 would be, I think that's the most likely negative outcome for 1114 01:02:23,120 --> 01:02:26,400 Bitcoin. I don't believe that that's the 1115 01:02:26,400 --> 01:02:28,160 most likely. I believe it will become freedom 1116 01:02:28,160 --> 01:02:30,720 money. But I think if things were to go 1117 01:02:30,720 --> 01:02:36,680 wrong, that there is other a lot of institutions that support it, 1118 01:02:38,280 --> 01:02:41,760 like governments, for example. I think Trump would love for his 1119 01:02:41,760 --> 01:02:44,880 family and his own family's wealth for Bitcoin to become the 1120 01:02:44,880 --> 01:02:48,360 new gold. I don't think he would love if 1121 01:02:48,360 --> 01:02:50,880 it were to become a substitute for Fiat money. 1122 01:02:51,440 --> 01:02:55,760 And so I think that the the interests are aligned for some 1123 01:02:55,760 --> 01:02:57,200 people to want that outcome to happen. 1124 01:02:57,600 --> 01:03:01,280 And, and I think that like building technologies that allow 1125 01:03:01,280 --> 01:03:04,600 Bitcoin to be moved more cheaply, stored, more easily 1126 01:03:04,840 --> 01:03:07,840 integrated into more things so that you can use it for things 1127 01:03:07,840 --> 01:03:10,200 other than just, you know, holding it in a financial 1128 01:03:10,200 --> 01:03:13,800 product that makes the alternative more appealing than 1129 01:03:13,800 --> 01:03:15,760 a financial product. And that's a lot of what we're 1130 01:03:15,760 --> 01:03:18,000 doing to our firm is trying to like make a lot of that happen. 1131 01:03:18,760 --> 01:03:20,320 And then what was the second part of the question? 1132 01:03:20,760 --> 01:03:24,040 Your biggest hope? Oh, my biggest hope. 1133 01:03:25,560 --> 01:03:28,880 I, I think that in stranded energy markets we're going to 1134 01:03:28,880 --> 01:03:32,080 see a large proliferation over the next decade. 1135 01:03:32,760 --> 01:03:36,800 I think it when you dig into like the trend with AI compute 1136 01:03:37,360 --> 01:03:40,960 and what I think it's going to be very good for making large 1137 01:03:40,960 --> 01:03:43,200 Bitcoin miners turn into AI compute guys. 1138 01:03:43,640 --> 01:03:47,480 And it's going to make the case for stranded energy only for 1139 01:03:47,480 --> 01:03:50,440 Bitcoin mining much greater, which is going to distribute the 1140 01:03:50,440 --> 01:03:53,320 network much more. And then I think if you look 1141 01:03:53,320 --> 01:03:55,920 into like heat reuse applications for Bitcoin mining, 1142 01:03:55,920 --> 01:03:59,480 that's another great incentive for stranded energy, effectively 1143 01:03:59,480 --> 01:04:03,120 stranded energy type applications that is going to 1144 01:04:03,120 --> 01:04:05,320 distribute the mining network. The more distributed the mining 1145 01:04:05,320 --> 01:04:07,800 network becomes, the better and stronger Bitcoin is. 1146 01:04:08,240 --> 01:04:10,760 And, and I think that that's that's one of the big things 1147 01:04:10,760 --> 01:04:13,800 that I'm looking forward to. Yeah, love that. 1148 01:04:13,920 --> 01:04:15,720 All right. My last question, and I ask 1149 01:04:15,720 --> 01:04:19,000 everyone the same question, which is what is a core belief 1150 01:04:19,000 --> 01:04:24,480 that you will never let go of? Oh, core belief is to make 1151 01:04:24,480 --> 01:04:26,680 decisions based in courage and not in fear. 1152 01:04:26,760 --> 01:04:28,000 Never going to let go of that one. 1153 01:04:29,000 --> 01:04:32,240 Love that awesome Manuel. Thanks so much for your time and 1154 01:04:32,240 --> 01:04:34,280 your insights. I really enjoyed it. 1155 01:04:34,280 --> 01:04:37,280 Hope people found it valuable and yeah, let's stay in touch. 1156 01:04:38,320 --> 01:04:39,600 Likewise, Bram. Thanks man. 1157 01:04:39,600 --> 01:04:40,520 Thanks. Cheers. 1158 01:04:41,000 --> 01:04:43,960 I hope you enjoyed this episode. If you did, you can click here 1159 01:04:43,960 --> 01:04:47,280 to find more just like it and click here to find all Bitcoin 1160 01:04:47,280 --> 01:04:49,280 for Millennials podcast episodes. 1161 01:04:49,600 --> 01:04:52,720 Also, if you want to help me shine a light on the message of 1162 01:04:52,720 --> 01:04:56,840 Bitcoin, please like this video and subscribe to stay connected. 1163 01:04:57,000 --> 01:04:58,680 I hope to see you for the next episode. 1164 01:04:59,080 --> 01:04:59,240 Bye.