1 00:00:03,640 --> 00:00:04,840 Yeah. Thanks so much for coming on. 2 00:00:04,840 --> 00:00:09,000 I've been following you with lots of interest and all the 3 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:11,680 other guys at Kit Analysts, right. 4 00:00:12,040 --> 00:00:16,480 And I think even within the past year, you guys have become a 5 00:00:16,480 --> 00:00:20,360 formidable force. And we'll definitely talk about 6 00:00:20,360 --> 00:00:23,400 that because I think it's very interesting how, you know, the 7 00:00:23,400 --> 00:00:28,160 whole open source decentralized nature of of Bitcoin has also 8 00:00:28,160 --> 00:00:31,600 permeated into the investing communities, which I think you 9 00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:34,040 are a leading figure in. So we'll touch upon that. 10 00:00:34,040 --> 00:00:37,920 But yeah, I was thinking maybe interesting to start with, you 11 00:00:37,920 --> 00:00:42,440 know, talking about why the the use case of of Bitcoin for an 12 00:00:42,440 --> 00:00:45,760 individual is basically the same As for a corporation. 13 00:00:45,760 --> 00:00:48,600 You know, like I kind of always describe it as like lower the 14 00:00:48,600 --> 00:00:51,960 uncertainty towards the future. So you make sure that that you 15 00:00:51,960 --> 00:00:54,280 survive. Yeah, you can probably explain 16 00:00:54,280 --> 00:00:58,080 that more in detail. Why that's of course also 17 00:00:58,080 --> 00:01:01,040 important for for corporations. And then, you know, capital 18 00:01:01,040 --> 00:01:03,240 allocation. I think your insurance angle is 19 00:01:03,240 --> 00:01:06,360 very interesting by the way. So yeah, maybe that's a nice 20 00:01:06,360 --> 00:01:07,280 start. Absolutely. 21 00:01:07,280 --> 00:01:09,080 Let's get into it. And you know, it's timely 22 00:01:09,080 --> 00:01:13,280 because I'm, I am moderating a panel this weekend on at the 23 00:01:13,280 --> 00:01:16,960 Bitcoin MIT Bitcoin Expo on Bitcoin adoption for 24 00:01:16,960 --> 00:01:19,760 corporations. And I think it's this phenomenon 25 00:01:19,760 --> 00:01:24,560 that's occurring and happening across the globe as companies 26 00:01:24,560 --> 00:01:31,040 are posed with the question of how do I protect my treasury and 27 00:01:31,040 --> 00:01:34,880 how do I protect my assets so I can operate into the future. 28 00:01:35,560 --> 00:01:38,480 And, you know, in the case of strategy, they were at the 29 00:01:38,480 --> 00:01:42,680 situation in 2020 where they were looking at this big pile of 30 00:01:42,680 --> 00:01:46,560 cash and struggling to see, you know, recognizing that there was 31 00:01:46,560 --> 00:01:49,280 going to be inflation on the horizon and recognizing that 32 00:01:50,440 --> 00:01:54,280 they they were kind of stuck in, in their business operations 33 00:01:54,280 --> 00:01:56,440 unless they did something they were trying to find out, OK, 34 00:01:56,440 --> 00:01:57,680 where do I invest all of my money? 35 00:01:57,680 --> 00:02:01,440 Do I invested in computers or, you know, real estate or, you 36 00:02:01,440 --> 00:02:04,120 know, what do I do recognizing that the the world is changing 37 00:02:04,120 --> 00:02:07,920 in front of my eyes. And in that analysis, they 38 00:02:07,920 --> 00:02:13,960 recognized that Bitcoin was the the best possible place to park 39 00:02:13,960 --> 00:02:16,600 their money for a long term store of value to help, you 40 00:02:16,600 --> 00:02:22,080 know, you know, make the company withstand changing market 41 00:02:22,080 --> 00:02:23,760 dynamics and changing market environment. 42 00:02:23,840 --> 00:02:27,800 And so where we're at in this new future, what we've got first 43 00:02:27,800 --> 00:02:29,920 movers, right strategy has been a first mover. 44 00:02:29,920 --> 00:02:32,920 And now you've got what the the the dozen companies that are 45 00:02:32,920 --> 00:02:35,640 adopting a Bitcoin treasury strategy or leverage Bitcoin 46 00:02:35,640 --> 00:02:40,120 treasury strategy. And what we're starting to see 47 00:02:40,120 --> 00:02:43,160 in this evolution of the space is that you companies are are 48 00:02:43,160 --> 00:02:46,000 very levered and focused on a heavy Bitcoin treasury strategy. 49 00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:48,160 And then there are some other companies that are adopting this 50 00:02:48,160 --> 00:02:52,400 as a diversification of, of assets moving forward into the 51 00:02:52,400 --> 00:02:54,360 future. So that's, that's where I think 52 00:02:54,360 --> 00:02:57,640 a lot of these companies are going to start dipping their toe 53 00:02:57,640 --> 00:03:01,360 in the water of, of adding Bitcoin on their balance sheet 54 00:03:01,360 --> 00:03:06,440 is just allocating 1% of their portfolio to or 1% of their cash 55 00:03:06,440 --> 00:03:10,360 assets into Bitcoin, recognizing that there's, there's a lot 56 00:03:10,360 --> 00:03:13,040 going on in the global macro landscape, in the political 57 00:03:13,040 --> 00:03:17,480 landscape, not just the US and other other nations as well. 58 00:03:17,480 --> 00:03:21,000 And there's this opportunity to have this diversified asset 59 00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:26,960 that's got a finite supply and may continue to outperform, you 60 00:03:26,960 --> 00:03:29,400 know, all other potential assets that you may be able to hold. 61 00:03:29,400 --> 00:03:31,840 So there's this constant, you know, when you're running a 62 00:03:31,840 --> 00:03:34,800 business, there's this constant opportunity cost of capital 63 00:03:34,800 --> 00:03:40,720 equation that you're faced with. If I, I've got, you know, just a 64 00:03:40,720 --> 00:03:43,440 few options. I, I, I can do with my cash. 65 00:03:43,440 --> 00:03:45,800 I can hold my cash in cash. I could reinvest it into the 66 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:48,440 business. I can buy the stock back or buy 67 00:03:48,440 --> 00:03:50,680 a piece of real estate or, you know, whatever that may be. 68 00:03:50,960 --> 00:03:53,120 And now you have this new alternative where I can park 69 00:03:53,120 --> 00:03:56,840 money in a finite asset, a finite digital asset, a 70 00:03:56,840 --> 00:04:00,120 commodity that has potential price appreciation and it's 71 00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:03,200 likely going to outperform all other all other products. 72 00:04:04,040 --> 00:04:07,560 So in fact, I just started another podcast with Ben 73 00:04:07,560 --> 00:04:11,040 Workman, Tim Kosman and Matt Cole, Strive CEO called the 74 00:04:11,040 --> 00:04:14,160 hurdle rate podcast and and we explore this very topic where, 75 00:04:14,920 --> 00:04:17,480 you know, there are some companies that are starting to 76 00:04:17,560 --> 00:04:21,519 explore Bitcoin, the performance of Bitcoin on a long term 77 00:04:21,519 --> 00:04:24,920 horizon as the hurdle rate for alternative investment. 78 00:04:25,560 --> 00:04:31,080 So some of the questions that the CE OS are asking is, you 79 00:04:31,080 --> 00:04:33,920 know, somebody comes to them with a proposal of how to run 80 00:04:33,920 --> 00:04:36,080 their or, you know, a project that they should work on. 81 00:04:36,160 --> 00:04:38,440 And the question back to them is, will this be Bitcoin? 82 00:04:38,640 --> 00:04:41,920 Yeah, yeah, yeah. And and I, I think that's a 83 00:04:41,920 --> 00:04:44,600 valid question that some of these companies should start to 84 00:04:45,080 --> 00:04:49,080 explore and think about the opportunity cost of capital in 85 00:04:49,080 --> 00:04:53,360 that way. And one of the big hurdles that 86 00:04:53,800 --> 00:04:56,840 a lot of these companies have been faced with historically. 87 00:04:56,840 --> 00:05:00,800 Is this just the legacy framework of quarter over 88 00:05:00,800 --> 00:05:04,760 quarter performance or year over year performance that has just 89 00:05:04,760 --> 00:05:08,160 been in place forever, right? Like the stock market's really 90 00:05:08,160 --> 00:05:11,040 focused on earnings per quarter or earnings per year, whatever 91 00:05:11,040 --> 00:05:13,520 that may be. Whereas if you zoom out and you 92 00:05:13,520 --> 00:05:16,040 look at bitcoin's performance, you look at it on a four year 93 00:05:16,040 --> 00:05:18,480 horizon or a five year horizon and you start to see it as a 94 00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:21,400 duration asset similar to something like real estate, 95 00:05:21,400 --> 00:05:23,160 right? You're not buying a piece of 96 00:05:23,160 --> 00:05:25,760 real estate in a month and selling it the next month. 97 00:05:26,080 --> 00:05:30,880 You're sitting on it for a decade and the because it's 98 00:05:30,880 --> 00:05:33,640 digital and and fast, it's a digital and fast economy. 99 00:05:33,640 --> 00:05:37,520 People see it as a digital and fast asset, but it can have a 100 00:05:37,520 --> 00:05:40,280 lot of value on a balance sheet as a duration asset or a long 101 00:05:40,280 --> 00:05:41,920 term asset similar to real estate. 102 00:05:42,240 --> 00:05:44,640 Yeah, yeah. I thought it's all interesting, 103 00:05:44,640 --> 00:05:48,080 right, Because you know, the, the question was like, what is 104 00:05:48,080 --> 00:05:53,080 the difference? Or I'd say the know, what's the 105 00:05:53,080 --> 00:05:55,360 same thing for like an individual and and a company, 106 00:05:55,360 --> 00:05:56,920 right? And it's more about, you know, 107 00:05:56,920 --> 00:05:59,640 if I have money today, but I don't want to spend it today, 108 00:05:59,640 --> 00:06:03,680 what do I do with it, right? And I think for companies, it's 109 00:06:03,680 --> 00:06:08,040 probably way more apparent. I think also because they 110 00:06:08,720 --> 00:06:11,160 operate in an environment, as you just mentioned, of growth, 111 00:06:11,160 --> 00:06:13,920 growth, growth, right? Like it's basically forced first 112 00:06:13,920 --> 00:06:16,960 growth, which, you know, we could go into, but that's also 113 00:06:16,960 --> 00:06:23,200 kind of like a Fiat, right? So Fiat and so it is way more 114 00:06:23,200 --> 00:06:26,600 apparent for them that when they have cash, they need to figure 115 00:06:26,600 --> 00:06:28,000 out, OK, what do I do with it? Right? 116 00:06:28,000 --> 00:06:31,440 And I, I think, you know, Seder famously explained like I went 117 00:06:31,440 --> 00:06:34,560 through everything, you know, stock buybacks, acquisitions and 118 00:06:34,560 --> 00:06:37,280 all this thing, all these things, right when, when he 119 00:06:37,280 --> 00:06:41,000 explains how he ended up with, with Bitcoin. 120 00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:44,120 So I don't think it's actually surprising that companies are 121 00:06:44,120 --> 00:06:49,480 starting to do this because you know, where I think, you know, 122 00:06:49,480 --> 00:06:53,640 individuals could be enticed by new sneakers or, you know, some, 123 00:06:53,760 --> 00:06:57,000 some fun gadget or a new Nintendo or whatever to spend 124 00:06:57,000 --> 00:07:00,240 their money on. In a sense, you know, company 125 00:07:00,240 --> 00:07:03,200 leadership is, is already focused on a bit more longer 126 00:07:03,200 --> 00:07:07,120 term perhaps than just, you know, the general individuals. 127 00:07:07,120 --> 00:07:11,280 So their their use case is way more way more apparent. 128 00:07:11,280 --> 00:07:17,160 And yeah, I love the hurdle rate idea because, and again, I think 129 00:07:17,160 --> 00:07:21,000 with companies, it's more apparent that if you don't have 130 00:07:21,000 --> 00:07:26,320 Bitcoin as your hurdle rate, it becomes really, I'd say more 131 00:07:26,320 --> 00:07:30,440 unclear if you're making the right investments basically. 132 00:07:30,600 --> 00:07:34,040 And when you put Bitcoin as the hurdle rate, I actually talked 133 00:07:34,040 --> 00:07:36,200 about this last week when we talked about startup 134 00:07:36,200 --> 00:07:38,840 investments, for example, like they're it, it's the same 135 00:07:38,920 --> 00:07:42,240 basically, right? So I told you just off mic, like 136 00:07:42,240 --> 00:07:45,040 I've I've a background in, in like the the Web 2 startup 137 00:07:45,040 --> 00:07:47,280 world. And that's like a spray and pray 138 00:07:47,280 --> 00:07:51,040 game, you know, like the whole VC game that's literally upon 139 00:07:51,640 --> 00:07:57,160 our pyramid scheme. And they're, yeah, just bad 140 00:07:57,160 --> 00:08:00,080 ideas get funded. And once you take Bitcoin as the 141 00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:02,880 hurdle rate, you're just becoming way more diligent as to 142 00:08:02,880 --> 00:08:05,360 what am I spending this capital on? 143 00:08:05,360 --> 00:08:06,800 That's also something I learned along the way. 144 00:08:06,800 --> 00:08:08,920 You know, capital is basically economic energy. 145 00:08:08,920 --> 00:08:13,760 You, you know, how do you say pile up in order to eventually 146 00:08:13,760 --> 00:08:17,120 invest, you know, into, into something and. 147 00:08:17,520 --> 00:08:19,920 Yeah, so underwriting, the underwriting of the deals gets 148 00:08:19,920 --> 00:08:21,960 much sharper, right When you think about Bitcoin as the 149 00:08:21,960 --> 00:08:24,800 hurdle rate, you're like, OK, I need to be a lot sharper in how 150 00:08:24,800 --> 00:08:27,400 I'm thinking about things. And you know, it seems like the 151 00:08:27,400 --> 00:08:30,120 last decade of VC has probably gotten a little loosey goosey 152 00:08:30,120 --> 00:08:31,120 We're. Going viral. 153 00:08:31,240 --> 00:08:32,919 Our growth strategy is going viral. 154 00:08:33,039 --> 00:08:34,960 You know, that's what they said. And then they're like, Oh yeah, 155 00:08:34,960 --> 00:08:37,120 that's that sounds great. Yeah, sure. 156 00:08:37,400 --> 00:08:39,280 Here's 10 million bucks. Yeah, exactly. 157 00:08:39,640 --> 00:08:42,200 Yeah, well, that's also the problem, right? 158 00:08:42,640 --> 00:08:46,640 Yeah, yeah, I, I think it might be helpful to, for, for your 159 00:08:46,640 --> 00:08:49,080 viewers to understand like financial companies as well, 160 00:08:49,080 --> 00:08:50,800 right? Like I think it's pretty easy to 161 00:08:50,800 --> 00:08:56,160 conceptualize, you know, a, a company, I don't know, like, and 162 00:08:56,160 --> 00:08:58,960 just any typical corporation adding Bitcoin to their balance 163 00:08:58,960 --> 00:09:00,360 sheet like Nike or something, right. 164 00:09:00,360 --> 00:09:04,280 You sell a product, you have net income and you store some, some 165 00:09:04,280 --> 00:09:06,160 of your net income in Bitcoin, right. 166 00:09:06,160 --> 00:09:10,480 That's like a, a simple perspective of, you know, how a 167 00:09:10,480 --> 00:09:14,640 company works. Now there's this whole separate 168 00:09:14,640 --> 00:09:18,640 realm of companies that, you know, everybody's familiar with, 169 00:09:18,640 --> 00:09:21,480 but probably not understand, doesn't really understand the 170 00:09:22,560 --> 00:09:24,960 the design of these companies. And it's insurance companies, 171 00:09:24,960 --> 00:09:30,240 banks and pension funds. And so insurance companies, how 172 00:09:30,240 --> 00:09:32,480 insurance companies work. And I think the design here is 173 00:09:32,480 --> 00:09:33,880 really important and understanding. 174 00:09:33,880 --> 00:09:39,200 So how insurance companies work is they are collecting premiums 175 00:09:39,360 --> 00:09:42,000 in day one, right? So like when you when you pay an 176 00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:45,320 insurance premium to an insurance company, that company 177 00:09:45,320 --> 00:09:48,480 is collecting the premiums and they're investing those premiums 178 00:09:48,480 --> 00:09:52,320 over time to pay out a future claim, right? 179 00:09:52,320 --> 00:09:55,200 So they know that you or you know, somebody else next to you 180 00:09:55,200 --> 00:09:57,520 is going to make make a claim at some point in the future. 181 00:09:57,880 --> 00:09:59,880 And there's a whole bunch of math that goes on behind the 182 00:09:59,880 --> 00:10:02,640 scenes where those insurance companies are calculating like, 183 00:10:02,680 --> 00:10:05,160 OK, what, you know, what are my claims going to be 10 years from 184 00:10:05,160 --> 00:10:06,640 now, five years from now, whatever that might be. 185 00:10:07,400 --> 00:10:10,360 And so when, when those insurance companies make those 186 00:10:11,640 --> 00:10:15,080 make those decisions and make those calculations, they, they 187 00:10:15,200 --> 00:10:18,280 buy different types of assets. So, you know, they may buy 10% 188 00:10:18,280 --> 00:10:22,320 of their portfolios and inequity and then 70% of their portfolios 189 00:10:22,320 --> 00:10:24,720 in bonds. And then, you know, 10% is in 190 00:10:24,720 --> 00:10:27,200 treasuries and, you know, different, different things like 191 00:10:27,200 --> 00:10:28,520 that. And every insurance company is 192 00:10:28,520 --> 00:10:32,160 designed differently. Now, every single one of those 193 00:10:32,160 --> 00:10:35,000 insurance companies subscribes to the concept of Markowitz 194 00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:38,400 Modern Portfolio Theory, which means if you have a a 195 00:10:38,800 --> 00:10:42,120 diversified pool of assets, if you add a new asset to that 196 00:10:42,120 --> 00:10:45,600 diversified pool of assets that has different risk return 197 00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:49,680 metrics, it improves the return and reduces the risk of your 198 00:10:49,680 --> 00:10:54,040 entire portfolio. OK, now, now enter onto the 199 00:10:54,040 --> 00:10:56,480 scene. Bitcoin, right? 200 00:10:56,600 --> 00:10:59,760 Bitcoin is unlike anything else in the market, right? 201 00:10:59,760 --> 00:11:02,680 It's got a completely different subset of people that are 202 00:11:02,680 --> 00:11:05,360 investing in it, buying it, you know, going in both directions. 203 00:11:05,920 --> 00:11:08,560 And it's got a different risk return profile than any other 204 00:11:08,560 --> 00:11:11,320 asset in the entire market. A lot of people are mentioning 205 00:11:11,320 --> 00:11:14,400 that it moves similarly to QQQ or, you know, risk assets or 206 00:11:14,400 --> 00:11:16,080 what not, but there are days where it doesn't. 207 00:11:17,400 --> 00:11:20,560 And so when you when you think of Bitcoin as a new asset class 208 00:11:20,560 --> 00:11:24,160 with a different risk return metrics, it is the perfect asset 209 00:11:24,480 --> 00:11:27,760 to add to a diversified portfolio or pool of assets, 210 00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:31,160 especially if you're thinking about having to pay out claims 211 00:11:31,160 --> 00:11:32,280 at a point in time in the future. 212 00:11:34,120 --> 00:11:37,880 Bitcoin custody is evolving and while self custody is important, 213 00:11:38,120 --> 00:11:40,160 it has its own risks and trade-offs. 214 00:11:40,240 --> 00:11:44,160 Onramp is pioneering a new standard multi institution 215 00:11:44,160 --> 00:11:47,520 custody which eliminates single points of failure, adding fault 216 00:11:47,520 --> 00:11:50,640 tolerance and redundancy to your custody setup. 217 00:11:50,880 --> 00:11:54,600 Onramp secures your Bitcoin in a segregated cold storage multi 218 00:11:54,600 --> 00:11:58,320 signature vault guarded by three independent institutional grade 219 00:11:58,320 --> 00:12:00,960 custodians, none of which have unilateral control. 220 00:12:01,120 --> 00:12:04,200 Your funds are fully auditable on chain, cannot be be 221 00:12:04,200 --> 00:12:07,600 hypothecated, and can only move or withdrawn at your explicit 222 00:12:07,600 --> 00:12:09,600 direction. 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Ready to unlock liquidity 244 00:13:20,280 --> 00:13:22,040 without ever selling a single set? 245 00:13:22,040 --> 00:13:25,520 Visit devafi.com/offers to explore their current lending 246 00:13:25,520 --> 00:13:29,000 offers. That's devafi.com/offersyeah. 247 00:13:29,440 --> 00:13:31,720 I wanted to touch upon insurance because I heard you say in 248 00:13:31,720 --> 00:13:34,080 another podcast and, you know, you have an insurance 249 00:13:34,080 --> 00:13:37,640 background. Yeah, how how do you model for 250 00:13:37,640 --> 00:13:42,680 the future when you know, the money is, is, you know, being 251 00:13:42,680 --> 00:13:45,040 debased even more rapidly? You know, like how do you, how 252 00:13:45,040 --> 00:13:47,480 do you plan 20 years in the future? 253 00:13:47,480 --> 00:13:50,400 And that's when I heard you make the use case for, you know, 254 00:13:50,400 --> 00:13:53,120 Bitcoin for also insurance companies. 255 00:13:53,120 --> 00:13:55,680 So I found that super interesting because they're in 256 00:13:55,680 --> 00:13:59,840 that business model. It's even more apparent to have, 257 00:14:01,040 --> 00:14:04,200 yeah, this is a simplified version, but to have an X amount 258 00:14:04,200 --> 00:14:08,600 of dollar units, you know, to be able to to pay for, well what 259 00:14:08,600 --> 00:14:11,080 you promised to pay for, right. That's the value proposition of 260 00:14:11,080 --> 00:14:15,000 an insurance. I think it's again similar to 261 00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:17,680 for individuals. Yeah, yeah, it's, it's an 262 00:14:17,840 --> 00:14:22,440 interesting phenomenon and I, I think that's in that calculus, 263 00:14:22,440 --> 00:14:23,480 right? I, I don't know how many 264 00:14:23,480 --> 00:14:25,440 insurance companies there are in America. 265 00:14:26,040 --> 00:14:27,760 Thousands, right? Like there are thousands of 266 00:14:27,760 --> 00:14:30,520 insurance companies in America. And if you think about each one 267 00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:32,640 of them is making their own calculations on what their 268 00:14:32,640 --> 00:14:33,760 claims are going to be in the future. 269 00:14:34,760 --> 00:14:36,960 And there are people that are making those calculations, 270 00:14:36,960 --> 00:14:38,800 right. And if your calculations are off 271 00:14:38,800 --> 00:14:42,240 by 25 basis points on like what you think the claim is going to 272 00:14:42,240 --> 00:14:44,920 be 10 years from now, your business model doesn't work. 273 00:14:45,400 --> 00:14:46,480 Yeah. Right. 274 00:14:46,760 --> 00:14:49,640 And, and, and so we're, we're seeing that kind of happen a 275 00:14:49,640 --> 00:14:53,560 little bit over time where, you know, medical claims inflation 276 00:14:53,560 --> 00:14:58,560 is outpacing the, the CPI and, you know, these insurance 277 00:14:58,560 --> 00:15:02,000 companies are, are grappling with CPI figures. 278 00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:05,400 How do, like, am I, am I, am I getting all of these numbers 279 00:15:05,400 --> 00:15:07,080 right? And, and something we've seen in 280 00:15:07,080 --> 00:15:09,880 the insurance industry is this concept of social inflation, 281 00:15:10,400 --> 00:15:14,720 which is really, in my opinion, just a debasement factor where 282 00:15:15,160 --> 00:15:18,240 the insurance industry is claiming that these these claims 283 00:15:18,240 --> 00:15:19,880 are larger. Like some of the claims that 284 00:15:19,880 --> 00:15:22,680 they've had are, are larger than they've been in the past because 285 00:15:22,680 --> 00:15:25,800 of these jury verdicts that they have, that they've had that 286 00:15:25,800 --> 00:15:28,000 which have been significantly larger than the past. 287 00:15:28,480 --> 00:15:31,960 In my opinion, the jury is just understanding that there's more 288 00:15:31,960 --> 00:15:34,400 money in the system and saying this, yeah, like this, this 289 00:15:34,400 --> 00:15:36,760 claim should be a $5,000,000 claim when in the past it should 290 00:15:36,760 --> 00:15:38,040 have been two and a half million dollar claim. 291 00:15:38,240 --> 00:15:40,280 Yeah, yeah. So this is happening on a 292 00:15:40,280 --> 00:15:42,760 massive scale, this. Is play Fiat games, get Fiat 293 00:15:42,760 --> 00:15:44,200 prices, Yeah. Exactly. 294 00:15:44,240 --> 00:15:48,120 Yeah, 100%. This is, I love the sorry, I 295 00:15:48,120 --> 00:15:50,720 want to, I want to point this out like this is the 0 sum Fiat 296 00:15:50,720 --> 00:15:53,440 game mentality, right? Yeah, just because the money is 297 00:15:53,440 --> 00:15:55,080 there. Yeah, I should, you know, take 298 00:15:55,080 --> 00:15:57,800 advantage of the fact that there's a big pool of money and, 299 00:15:59,080 --> 00:16:00,560 you know, it should be claimed, basically. 300 00:16:00,880 --> 00:16:07,080 Right, right. Yeah, it's so there are some 301 00:16:07,080 --> 00:16:08,640 challenges with the insurance industry, right? 302 00:16:08,640 --> 00:16:11,840 This is a, this is a financial, this is a financial business 303 00:16:12,080 --> 00:16:15,200 that can greatly benefit from adding Bitcoin to the balance 304 00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:18,000 sheet. Now here's the problem is that 305 00:16:18,280 --> 00:16:20,480 insurance companies, if they were to add Bitcoin to their 306 00:16:20,480 --> 00:16:24,800 balance sheet, they get 0 regulatory credit for it, 0. 307 00:16:25,200 --> 00:16:28,360 So that means you have 0 ability to lend against it, right? 308 00:16:28,360 --> 00:16:31,440 Like you have 0 ability to leverage against it. 309 00:16:31,440 --> 00:16:34,000 Like on your portfolio, like how much premium you could bring in 310 00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:36,560 the door, how much risk you bring in the door, you have 0 311 00:16:36,560 --> 00:16:38,080 ability to lever get lever against it. 312 00:16:38,520 --> 00:16:40,680 Now that's, that's a really big problem, right? 313 00:16:41,040 --> 00:16:43,000 And it's like, well, here's a new asset class that I need to 314 00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:46,240 add to My Portfolio. But the regulatory environment 315 00:16:46,240 --> 00:16:51,280 has created a lid on innovation. And it's, it's really, it's a, 316 00:16:51,440 --> 00:16:54,600 it's a fascinating conundrum. And then the industry moves so 317 00:16:54,600 --> 00:16:57,400 slow it it's probably going to take a long time before 318 00:16:57,400 --> 00:17:00,040 regulators or rating agencies understand that this is a really 319 00:17:00,040 --> 00:17:04,480 valid form of capital that can be used with a long Longview 320 00:17:04,480 --> 00:17:05,760 horizon. Yeah. 321 00:17:06,560 --> 00:17:09,480 And so why, why is it so interesting then to to use 322 00:17:09,599 --> 00:17:13,319 Bitcoin as as a collateral, you know, collateral or use it as 323 00:17:13,319 --> 00:17:15,599 collateralization of of the balance sheet? 324 00:17:15,599 --> 00:17:19,200 I mean, just as individuals, you know, are buying real estate and 325 00:17:19,200 --> 00:17:22,440 stuff like that, why is specifically Bitcoin so 326 00:17:22,440 --> 00:17:27,960 interesting for for companies? Yeah, well, it it is a it is a 327 00:17:27,960 --> 00:17:30,440 power, it is a powerful form of collateral. 328 00:17:30,440 --> 00:17:33,280 And I think just kind of going back to this to this concept of 329 00:17:33,360 --> 00:17:35,680 this insurance company, just to finish this thought here. 330 00:17:37,000 --> 00:17:39,720 They can't add those product, they can't add Bitcoin to the 331 00:17:39,720 --> 00:17:41,400 balance sheet and leverage leverage against it. 332 00:17:41,400 --> 00:17:44,600 But you know what they can add is publicly traded equities. 333 00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:47,960 They could add preferred stock from publicly traded equities. 334 00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:50,240 They can add convertible debt from publicly traded equities. 335 00:17:50,240 --> 00:17:52,080 They can add debt from publicly traded equities. 336 00:17:52,360 --> 00:17:57,160 So now, now you've got multiple different vehicles, right, that 337 00:17:57,200 --> 00:18:00,200 can provide Bitcoin exposure. So these insurance companies, 338 00:18:00,200 --> 00:18:03,400 for example, they can explore adding assets like 339 00:18:04,040 --> 00:18:06,240 Microstrategy's convertible debt to the balance sheet or the 340 00:18:06,240 --> 00:18:08,160 preferred stock. And all of a sudden you're 341 00:18:08,160 --> 00:18:12,520 getting proxy Bitcoin exposure and you get credit to leverage 342 00:18:12,520 --> 00:18:15,960 against it. And you're, you're filling this 343 00:18:15,960 --> 00:18:18,160 product market need, right? Like the insurance, the 344 00:18:18,160 --> 00:18:21,640 insurance industry needs this product and strategy saying, 345 00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:25,000 perfect, I can design and create this product and deliver it to 346 00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:26,280 you. So you can get your Bitcoin 347 00:18:26,280 --> 00:18:28,880 exposure on your balance sheet, fit within the regulatory 348 00:18:28,880 --> 00:18:31,800 framework. Just basically get around those 349 00:18:31,840 --> 00:18:35,960 regulatory lid on innovation and have that exposure to your, to 350 00:18:35,960 --> 00:18:37,960 your company. The industry hasn't figured it 351 00:18:37,960 --> 00:18:41,320 out yet, right? Like 99.9% of the insurance 352 00:18:41,320 --> 00:18:43,320 industry probably doesn't hold the stuff on their balance 353 00:18:43,320 --> 00:18:44,400 sheet. And I, I think they will. 354 00:18:44,400 --> 00:18:46,280 And they'll, they'll largely wake up to it in the future. 355 00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:50,160 Do you think there's like a a catalyst for that? 356 00:18:50,160 --> 00:18:53,440 Like when is that? When the money printer goes on 357 00:18:53,440 --> 00:18:57,320 again and they realize that their problem is actually 358 00:18:57,560 --> 00:18:59,680 probably bigger than they than they thought before. 359 00:18:59,680 --> 00:19:01,840 Or like what do you think? Yeah. 360 00:19:02,360 --> 00:19:05,280 It could be pain, pain in the market, which is kind of what 361 00:19:05,280 --> 00:19:10,400 you you've indicated there. That's a, that's a deep 362 00:19:10,400 --> 00:19:12,760 question. OK, that's a, that's a really 363 00:19:12,760 --> 00:19:14,680 deep question. And my brain is going a bunch of 364 00:19:14,720 --> 00:19:16,280 ways. Yeah. 365 00:19:16,920 --> 00:19:19,680 So just in that that to get too complicated. 366 00:19:19,680 --> 00:19:23,200 But with the with the insurance companies, right, you have this 367 00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:24,880 expectation of how many claims you're going to pay out. 368 00:19:24,880 --> 00:19:26,640 You get the premium in the door, you're going to pay out claims. 369 00:19:27,080 --> 00:19:29,680 Now there's also the second layer of insurance called 370 00:19:29,680 --> 00:19:33,520 reinsurance, which is insurance for insurance companies. 371 00:19:34,760 --> 00:19:36,880 And I'm not going to get too deep, but it protects against 372 00:19:36,880 --> 00:19:39,520 volatility, right? So if, if you, if you're an 373 00:19:39,520 --> 00:19:42,080 insurance company and you have a hurricane hit your entire 374 00:19:42,080 --> 00:19:46,360 portfolio in Florida, you go, oh shit, I, I, I have to liquidate 375 00:19:46,360 --> 00:19:49,400 all my assets in order to pay for my Florida hurricane claims. 376 00:19:50,120 --> 00:19:51,840 So what does the insurance company do? 377 00:19:51,880 --> 00:19:55,520 They buy a policy from the reinsurance market that protects 378 00:19:55,520 --> 00:19:57,280 them against volatility on their balance sheet. 379 00:19:57,280 --> 00:19:59,200 So they don't have to liquidate all their assets in that 380 00:19:59,200 --> 00:20:02,760 individual time. So within the reinsurance 381 00:20:02,760 --> 00:20:08,360 market, the reinsurance market is very fluid and with with far 382 00:20:08,360 --> 00:20:10,160 less regulation in the entire market. 383 00:20:10,440 --> 00:20:13,640 So the the reinsurance market can move and reprice things very 384 00:20:13,640 --> 00:20:17,240 quickly within a year, right. The reinsurance market can move 385 00:20:17,240 --> 00:20:20,200 and price really quickly. Whereas the insurance market is 386 00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:23,000 incredibly regulated by the state and their their rating 387 00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:26,560 agencies that impact how much you can raise rates and charge 388 00:20:26,560 --> 00:20:33,320 and do all this stuff. So the if there's large capital 389 00:20:33,360 --> 00:20:38,040 draining events in the market on top of an inflationary like 390 00:20:38,040 --> 00:20:41,320 money printing scenario, let's say you've got an earthquake or 391 00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:43,680 a big hurricane hitting Florida or wildfire in Southern 392 00:20:43,680 --> 00:20:47,080 California, or you know, these big capital drains on the 393 00:20:47,080 --> 00:20:49,720 market, the reinsurance market is going to reprice that very 394 00:20:49,720 --> 00:20:52,360 quickly. And when the reinsurance part 395 00:20:52,360 --> 00:20:56,440 market reprices that that flows through to the insurance 396 00:20:56,440 --> 00:20:59,360 companies PNL like their their profit. 397 00:20:59,360 --> 00:21:01,360 And so they've got to be able to, you know, charge that in 398 00:21:01,360 --> 00:21:06,040 underwriting and their whole calculus of like how much money 399 00:21:06,040 --> 00:21:08,240 they need at a future point in time is revamped. 400 00:21:08,360 --> 00:21:13,040 And so like it, it, it will take pain, whether that be 401 00:21:13,040 --> 00:21:16,080 inflationary environment, catastrophic disasters, or, you 402 00:21:16,080 --> 00:21:19,160 know, some combination of the two of those in order for these 403 00:21:19,160 --> 00:21:22,760 companies to to react. Probably that to see like a big 404 00:21:22,760 --> 00:21:25,720 like a big large scale reaction I would suspect. 405 00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:29,520 Yeah, it's very interesting. Again, I think it's similar for 406 00:21:29,520 --> 00:21:32,560 for individuals, right? Like, we can talk about Bitcoin 407 00:21:33,080 --> 00:21:35,720 for individuals, we can talk about Bitcoin for companies, but 408 00:21:35,720 --> 00:21:38,160 as long as people don't understand the predicament 409 00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:40,320 they're in, then don't. Understand a problem right? 410 00:21:40,560 --> 00:21:43,080 Yeah, exactly. So that that's, that's I think 411 00:21:43,080 --> 00:21:46,120 also why why Sailor is eventually so visionary. 412 00:21:46,120 --> 00:21:48,720 And I want to I want to dive into micro strategy. 413 00:21:48,720 --> 00:21:52,560 But first, yeah, he he was the 1st. 414 00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:56,600 Now, as you mentioned, you know, he has more products, right? 415 00:21:56,600 --> 00:21:59,920 He he's got, he's making basically very specific 416 00:21:59,920 --> 00:22:04,920 financial products to raise money to eventually buy Bitcoin, 417 00:22:04,920 --> 00:22:06,280 right? They have Stark, they have 418 00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:08,880 strife. There's other companies like 419 00:22:08,880 --> 00:22:12,640 Metaplanet, similar Scientific, you know, there, there's, 420 00:22:12,640 --> 00:22:14,760 there's many other companies that are following Rumble, I 421 00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:18,560 think is a company that many people might know. 422 00:22:19,360 --> 00:22:21,240 Yeah. Where, where is this going? 423 00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:27,520 I mean, well, GameStop, you know, last week shared that 424 00:22:27,640 --> 00:22:29,480 they're going to put Bitcoin on the balance sheet. 425 00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:31,440 Yeah. Can you share a bit about this 426 00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:35,120 development and and where do you think this will spread further? 427 00:22:35,840 --> 00:22:38,600 Yeah, it's, it's developing very quickly. 428 00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:41,760 And I, I think, you know, everybody, we're, we're in this 429 00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:45,360 modern society where everybody thinks things move like really, 430 00:22:45,360 --> 00:22:47,160 really fast, right? Like if I make an order on 431 00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:49,920 Amazon, it shows up to my house in less than 24 hours, right? 432 00:22:49,920 --> 00:22:54,240 Like it, it's it we're in this like fast moving ideology 433 00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:57,440 economy, but the reality is some of the stuff takes time, right, 434 00:22:57,440 --> 00:23:01,080 Like having communicating with your board or making changes to 435 00:23:01,080 --> 00:23:04,000 your business model or understanding that I need to 436 00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:07,000 change my business mix or like sell a piece of real estate in 437 00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:09,240 order to buy Bitcoin or, or you know, whatever that might be. 438 00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:11,760 That takes that takes a lot of time. 439 00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:15,960 And, and where, where I do think this this market is going is 440 00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:18,160 that we're going to see significantly more corporate 441 00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:20,640 adoption of Bitcoin on the horizon. 442 00:23:20,640 --> 00:23:26,120 And I know there are material number of people that are, that 443 00:23:26,120 --> 00:23:31,440 are working in this space to basically tell the market, it's 444 00:23:31,440 --> 00:23:33,400 OK to dip your toe in the water here, right? 445 00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:35,640 Like the water's warm, like come, come check it out. 446 00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:39,320 And here's in it requires a bunch of people talking and 447 00:23:39,320 --> 00:23:42,440 communicating about, you know, what, what can this asset be, 448 00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:44,080 right? You have to, you have to tell 449 00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:47,000 the story of the asset. So a lot of people are working 450 00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:49,200 to tell the story of the asset, what it could potentially be, 451 00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:52,400 how could benefit your company, how to think about it as a long 452 00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:56,160 term asset and a network asset. Tell them some of the basics, 453 00:23:56,160 --> 00:23:58,520 right like this, this thing isn't going anywhere. 454 00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:00,360 It's backed by math. It's backed by the largest 455 00:24:00,360 --> 00:24:02,080 decentralized computer network on the planet. 456 00:24:02,120 --> 00:24:04,400 And you know, getting people to understand that is that just 457 00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:07,800 takes a lot of time, right. You 100 hours at least before 458 00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:11,400 you start to really grasp what's going on with Bitcoin. 459 00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:15,680 But I, I think we're, I think we're in this scenario where 460 00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:18,120 significant number of companies are going to start adopting 461 00:24:18,120 --> 00:24:20,680 this. And you know, success brings, 462 00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:23,600 brings more success, right? So you, you start to see 463 00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:27,320 companies that thrive and you start to ask why, why is that 464 00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:30,920 company thriving? You know, why is my competitor 465 00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:33,320 thriving? Why am I losing business to this 466 00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:35,120 competitor? What are they doing better than 467 00:24:35,120 --> 00:24:38,600 I am doing? And how can I, how can I copy 468 00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:40,840 them, right? How do I, how do I beat them? 469 00:24:41,080 --> 00:24:43,880 Can I beat them? And, and we start to see the 470 00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:48,320 scenario that is a little bit of a domino effect where, you know, 471 00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:51,520 every in the traditional finance world, a lot of people think 472 00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:56,040 strategy, MicroStrategy, strategy is a, is a Ponzi scheme 473 00:24:56,040 --> 00:24:57,800 pyramid scheme. They've gone from a $2 billion 474 00:24:57,800 --> 00:24:59,800 market cap to an $80 billion market cap. 475 00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:03,120 And the traditional financial world like can't wrap their head 476 00:25:03,120 --> 00:25:05,640 around it. Now it's going to go from 80 477 00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:08,320 billion to 200 billion to 500 billion. 478 00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:10,960 And the traditional financial world is going to have to say, 479 00:25:11,360 --> 00:25:14,360 wait a minute, was I wrong? Right. 480 00:25:14,360 --> 00:25:16,000 What was I wrong about this company? 481 00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:18,680 And what what the hell is going on here? 482 00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:21,400 And what what do? What do they know that I don't 483 00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:23,440 know? And that's one of the reasons I 484 00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:26,200 think this is going to be the most hated rally of all time, 485 00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:28,400 right? Like so many people just hate 486 00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:30,720 that there's so much success happening in a space because 487 00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:32,320 they just don't can't conceptualize it and don't 488 00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:38,040 understand it. And so, so we're, we're going to 489 00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:40,640 see this evolve over time where more, more people are starting 490 00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:43,160 to dip their toe in the water and say, OK, well, maybe I'll, 491 00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:46,120 maybe I'll buy it for myself 1st and understand how this thing 492 00:25:46,120 --> 00:25:47,320 works. And then they're like, whoa, 493 00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:49,440 hold on. This is if it's good for me, 494 00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:52,120 it's good for a company, right? If it's good for me, it's good 495 00:25:52,120 --> 00:25:53,560 for a company. If it's good for a company, it's 496 00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:56,400 good for a country, it's good for a nation, right? 497 00:25:56,400 --> 00:25:59,120 And you, you start to, you start to go down this orange pill 498 00:25:59,120 --> 00:26:01,320 rabbit hole. And, and I think, I think we're, 499 00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:05,000 we're in this point where like adoption is accelerating, like 500 00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:08,440 we're still like increasing at an increasing rate. 501 00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:13,240 And I think the next 4 to 8 years, we're going to see that, 502 00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:17,800 that continue significantly. I think we're going to see a lot 503 00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:19,360 of companies that are adopting a strategy. 504 00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:22,800 We're already in communication with, you know, a dozen 505 00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:26,000 companies on a smaller scale, like private companies that 506 00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:30,960 don't have a board of directors to report to, right? 507 00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:33,240 They're, they're individually owned companies. 508 00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:37,640 The, the owners are orange pilled and they're like, well, 509 00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:39,880 I, I want to add this to my back, my corporate balance 510 00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:42,280 sheet. I want my employees to succeed 511 00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:44,160 here. I want to attract good talent. 512 00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:47,360 I want to, you know, do bigger, better things in the future. 513 00:26:47,360 --> 00:26:49,920 And like, I don't think I could beat AI. 514 00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:52,840 So I have to do something. And this is this is the option. 515 00:26:53,760 --> 00:27:00,040 Do you think we'll see like a big company like adopting like 516 00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:03,440 Zuckerberg has a majority voting rights and Michael Dell is 517 00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:06,320 hinting at Bitcoin for over a year now. 518 00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:09,360 You know, I tweeted at him jokingly, like if you adopt 519 00:27:09,360 --> 00:27:12,800 Bitcoin, I'm going to buy like Dell computers and make miners 520 00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:14,080 of it. Like you should launch miners 521 00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:18,760 like I mean, I think he's totally into Bitcoin or maybe 522 00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:20,640 Amazon. Like, do you think it needs like 523 00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:25,120 a big company to actually really take away, let's call it career 524 00:27:25,120 --> 00:27:29,440 risk or image risk or whatever? You think about some of these 525 00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:33,480 larger companies and I don't know, you got a the CFO of Dell, 526 00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:35,840 like I don't know who the CFO of Dell is, but I'm sure he's 527 00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:37,720 sitting there like, dude, what? Are you? 528 00:27:38,120 --> 00:27:41,320 Yeah, what are you doing right? Like you're paying me like 529 00:27:41,360 --> 00:27:45,160 $1,000,000 a year, you know, like I, I'm not going to buy 530 00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:46,760 this shit. Like you're crazy, right. 531 00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:50,440 And so, so I'm sure there's so much of that going on, on the on 532 00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:53,200 like a large if, if your company's worth more than $10 533 00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:55,800 billion, I'm sure like, you know, see if I was getting paid 534 00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:57,960 more than more than 1,000,000 bucks a year. 535 00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:01,200 And that's the, that's the way that those, you know, they're, 536 00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:03,400 they're like, you're crazy. I, I don't, I don't, I'm not 537 00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:07,000 doing this. And so I think there's a, a 538 00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:09,720 lower probability that we see some of those large, large scale 539 00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:13,840 movers move now because they, they don't need to, right? 540 00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:16,920 They're successful in their own way, particularly like mag 7, 541 00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:19,160 right? They're MAG 7 because they've 542 00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:20,520 succeeded doing what they're doing. 543 00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:25,760 So they don't, they don't really need to adopt something new, but 544 00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:27,760 but they can. And I, I don't think we're going 545 00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:29,800 to see a scenario where, you know, Meta comes out and buys 546 00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:32,520 $50 billion worth of Bitcoin and there's a low probability that 547 00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:35,440 maybe they dip their toe in the water and say, Hey, you know, 548 00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:38,520 we're going to run a new, we're going to run Bitcoin for our, 549 00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:43,840 you know, commerce in the metaverse, right? 550 00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:45,640 And all, all of a sudden you're like, wow, OK, that's an 551 00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:48,320 interesting concept. And you're like, maybe that 552 00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:50,520 works. And I mean, let's, let's be 553 00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:53,640 honest, we already have basically a mag seven that holds 554 00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:56,360 Bitcoin in the balance sheet. You got Tesla that holds 10,000 555 00:28:56,360 --> 00:29:00,240 or 11,000 Bitcoin. And you've got, I mean, SpaceX 556 00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:02,280 is a private company. I think they hold something like 557 00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:04,640 9008 thousand 9000 Bitcoin as well. 558 00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:07,760 So you've already got a couple big companies that are holding 559 00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:09,880 it on their balance sheet as an asset. 560 00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:13,440 I, I think kind of where, you know, looking back at what's 561 00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:16,640 going on with Elon Musk being in the political sphere, being 562 00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:20,120 around Trump and what's going on politically with the Doge, I, I 563 00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:23,240 wouldn't be surprised if he maybe leans in a little bit 564 00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:28,600 harder to Bitcoin. But once he's done with his doge 565 00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:31,520 term, which I think is July. Which is I think it's. 566 00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:35,000 July of this year. Well, he's notoriously quiet 567 00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:37,240 about it, don't you think? Yeah, I think he's like 568 00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:40,480 exceptionally quiet. And I found out the other day 569 00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:43,040 that SpaceX holds Bitcoin. And I was like, holy shit. 570 00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:45,800 Yeah, Yeah, that that was a surprise to me. 571 00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:47,840 And that was just completely under the radar. 572 00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:52,720 If you have your Bitcoin in self custody, where are you keeping 573 00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:55,880 your Bitcoin seed words? For me, there's only one way and 574 00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:58,200 it's backing up my seed phrase with stamp seats. 575 00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:02,240 It's a single durable plate without any parts or materials. 576 00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:05,360 Stamp your words into solid titanium, which is fire 577 00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:07,880 resistant, water resistant and built to last. 578 00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:10,760 Unlike etching or engraving, stamp seats better. 579 00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:14,280 The tools help you to deeply stamp every letter for permanent 580 00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:17,680 readability, making it easy for you to protect your generational 581 00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:19,680 wealth. Don't risk losing your seat 582 00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:22,120 phrase on paper. Get a stamp seat plate for 583 00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:25,920 unmatched protection. You can use code Brom that's BR 584 00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:29,560 AM for 15% off at stamp seat dot. 585 00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:33,600 Com Oh yeah, now they hold it for like I think 3-4 years 586 00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:35,720 already. Yeah, it's it's all like old 587 00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:38,800 news. But maybe, you know, if I put my 588 00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:42,440 crazy strategy, you know, not strategy company, but strategy 589 00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:46,520 cap on, you know, just as like sailors talking about, you know, 590 00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:49,360 we should devalue the gold, buy Bitcoin and then we, you know, 591 00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:52,400 wreck, wreck all the other countries that hold the gold. 592 00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:55,600 I mean you, you said they are the Max 7, you know because they 593 00:30:55,600 --> 00:30:58,680 did stuff, but they are also the Max 7 because they are the Max 594 00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:00,520 7. And innovators and. 595 00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:02,720 Yeah, no, but I mean, also because they have the highest 596 00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:05,840 allocation in S&P 500, like they're passive investing 597 00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:09,320 whether they mess up or not. I mean, today I saw a lot of 598 00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:12,680 tweets about the I, you know, new Mac update that breaks 599 00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:16,040 iCloud or whatever. People hate the photo app on on, 600 00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:19,160 on the iPhone, right? But people invest in Apple 601 00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:20,840 because they are part of the Mac 7. 602 00:31:21,760 --> 00:31:24,520 Let's say you are, let's say Zuckerberg, right? 603 00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:29,120 If you adopt A Bitcoin strategy, I mean, I think it's you who's 604 00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:32,080 tweeting about, you know, strategy move this amount of 605 00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:35,680 companies in the S&P 500. You know, let's say you are in 606 00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:39,760 the Mac 7 and you adopt Bitcoin, you know, or so could be Amazon, 607 00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:44,440 then yeah, you kind of pull away from the Mac 7. 608 00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:46,680 You're going to be in in a league of your own, right? 609 00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:49,320 And then correct other companies that have Bitcoin on their 610 00:31:49,320 --> 00:31:52,320 balance sheet like strategy, which is then the biggest. 611 00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:54,800 Yeah, they're going to, they're going to move up. 612 00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:58,520 So I do think there's an interesting potential for some 613 00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:02,000 sort of game theory there because in essence, they are 614 00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:07,520 also battling for these passive flows from the S&P 500, like I 615 00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:09,840 mean, it helps them of course, to operate their business. 616 00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:13,000 Right. It it always it always helps to 617 00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:15,680 be higher up on the on the ranking. 618 00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:18,960 I'm, I'm obsessed with the ranking of the market cap 619 00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:21,040 ranking of all these companies, because once you get up to the 620 00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:26,000 top, like top 20, there's, there's no real good way to 621 00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:29,680 compare one equity to another equity, right? 622 00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:35,200 Like how do you compare Exxon to JP to to JP Morgan Chase and to 623 00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:36,480 Meta? Right. 624 00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:40,600 Like yeah, you tweet micro strategies between garbage bags 625 00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:43,840 and something I don't know. Yeah, between Sherwin-Williams 626 00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:46,080 paint and, you know, waste management garbage. 627 00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:47,920 Yeah, exactly. We're going higher, right? 628 00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:50,640 Like this thing is going higher. Yes, but that's good. 629 00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:54,440 That's rational translation and I'd say, you know, just not 630 00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:56,680 looking at the numbers, but more like, yeah, is micro strategy 631 00:32:56,760 --> 00:32:58,560 worth more than a waste management company? 632 00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:01,720 Yeah, that's like, yeah, yeah, I think Bitcoin's worth way more 633 00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:04,880 than a trash like the the trash companies of the world, right. 634 00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:09,000 So that's, that's kind of the frame, the general long term 635 00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:14,560 framework that I operate within, like either either everything 636 00:33:14,560 --> 00:33:18,360 else is way overvalued or strategy and Bitcoin companies 637 00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:21,400 are way undervalued. And it's like, OK, I, I'm, I'm 638 00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:24,760 going to take the, the position that strategy is way undervalued 639 00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:28,360 and Bitcoin is way undervalued. That's, that's kind of how I how 640 00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:31,440 I view it, but I mean, go back to the point here is once, once 641 00:33:31,440 --> 00:33:34,600 you're in the top 20, the, the only way you can compare these 642 00:33:34,600 --> 00:33:37,040 companies is market cap, right? Like that. 643 00:33:37,040 --> 00:33:39,360 They all have different PE ratios, they all have different 644 00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:41,000 price to book ratios. They all have different 645 00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:43,120 financial structures. They all have different revenue 646 00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:45,680 that all, you know, different products, like all this stuff is 647 00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:48,240 completely different. So there's only one way you can, 648 00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:53,600 you know, take a logical, you know, valuation metric in it and 649 00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:56,960 it's really market cap. So and and once you're once 650 00:33:56,960 --> 00:33:59,400 you're higher in market, cap those, those dollar flows that 651 00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:03,120 are coming in the door is is exponential, not not linear. 652 00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:06,320 Yeah. I'm just thinking like, does the 653 00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:10,120 S&P 500 make sense based on what you just said, You know, like 654 00:34:10,120 --> 00:34:11,639 does the ranking then make sense? 655 00:34:11,639 --> 00:34:16,560 Because what does is it kind of like 8020, you would say like 656 00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:20,840 adverse burrito? Is it like 80% of the S&P 500 657 00:34:20,840 --> 00:34:25,040 flows go to the top 20% or like? Yeah, yeah, it's, it's something 658 00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:27,040 like that. It it's really high, like of the 659 00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:30,520 of the S&P 500. I think MAG 7 makes up like 35%. 660 00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:34,280 No way. Yeah, 35% of the flows is MAG 7. 661 00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:37,320 So it's like it's really heavily weighted towards the top. 662 00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:41,199 And just to put it in perspective, right, like at the 663 00:34:41,199 --> 00:34:47,040 S&P 500 index itself and all the index ETFs that follow the S&P 664 00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:52,920 500 hold 6% of Apple. And like that's just that's just 665 00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:57,560 one index, like bucket holds 6% of that company. 666 00:34:57,920 --> 00:34:59,880 Now, if you take that bucket away, what's Apple worth? 667 00:34:59,880 --> 00:35:02,200 Yeah. But this is what I mean like 668 00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:05,080 this if if you, I mean, I don't want to take it too far, but 669 00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:08,880 like the the Fiat, the Fiat game, you know, is not that 670 00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:12,600 transparent in the sense like if if all the financial advisors in 671 00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:17,160 the world, almost all I would say, right, They say like, well, 672 00:35:17,160 --> 00:35:20,920 you should at least put some percentage in the S&P 500, 673 00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:22,760 right? Like basically that's that's a 674 00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:27,200 money funneling operation towards, you know, keeping these 675 00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:32,600 mostly American companies by the way, up up there. 676 00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:33,480 Yeah. So. 677 00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:36,440 Yeah, and it's really curious when you look at the SP500I mean 678 00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:42,480 those, the Max, it's something like 10% of the equities in the 679 00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:46,760 S&P 500 generate 9597% of the return. 680 00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:51,000 And so then the rest of the companies are just floating, 681 00:35:51,720 --> 00:35:53,160 right? They're zombie companies just 682 00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:57,120 kind of floating there and, you know, moving around and they've 683 00:35:57,120 --> 00:35:59,520 got good credit quality because they're in the S&P 500. 684 00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:01,520 They're getting passive flows because of the architecture of 685 00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:03,400 the market. The S&P, the design of the S&P 686 00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:07,640 500 has only been around like I don't know how long, but it's, 687 00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:12,120 it's got a history, right? Like we're here today in 2025, 688 00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:16,200 built upon this architecture of a financial world that was 689 00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:21,160 designed, you know, 75 years ago and has evolved into where we 690 00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:23,440 are today. And it it's inefficient based on 691 00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:26,600 the new assets that are around today, the new design of like 692 00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:30,680 the economy and how fast the the, the world's moving. 693 00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:34,160 Yeah, I think that's a great way to think about it, right. 694 00:36:34,160 --> 00:36:37,920 Like just think about, OK, there is this, there's this thing that 695 00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:40,040 is Bitcoin and it just exists, right? 696 00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:43,920 And I think, you know, you, you probably also come across a lot 697 00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:46,560 of critics, right? People cannot handle the fact 698 00:36:46,560 --> 00:36:49,560 that this thing just exists. You know, Jeff Booth talks about 699 00:36:49,560 --> 00:36:51,200 it like it's a paradigm. It's a different thing. 700 00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:54,000 And people look from their current paradigm, they look at 701 00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:56,560 this new thing and they try to judge it with, you know, all 702 00:36:56,560 --> 00:36:59,520 the, all the things or all the ingredients or all the 703 00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:01,960 characteristics that they know from their current paradigm. 704 00:37:02,640 --> 00:37:04,680 And therefore, it's just really hard to grok. 705 00:37:04,680 --> 00:37:08,520 Like you really have to step out of it in order to, to see it. 706 00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:12,440 And maybe to go back to the S&P 500 before we go further into 707 00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:14,480 MicroStrategy, because this is one of the things I want things 708 00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:15,760 I wanted to ask. So you're tracking 709 00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:18,120 MicroStrategy. Of course, it is not in the S&P 710 00:37:18,120 --> 00:37:20,880 500, right? But you're, you're, you're 711 00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:24,800 tracking it as if it was right based on market cap, as you just 712 00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:27,600 explained. Like that's the most logical way 713 00:37:28,080 --> 00:37:31,880 to to track, I think, yeah, kind of like 2 questions into one 714 00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:35,840 because I think there was a certain price of Bitcoin, like 715 00:37:35,840 --> 00:37:42,320 9596 thousand dollars that should have been held at like 716 00:37:42,320 --> 00:37:46,280 the end of March for micro strategy to have potential to, 717 00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:50,320 to perhaps be included of obviously that that that price 718 00:37:50,320 --> 00:37:55,080 wasn't reached. So yeah, what does that track of 719 00:37:55,080 --> 00:37:57,480 micro strategy look like? And then maybe to add to that, 720 00:37:57,480 --> 00:38:01,680 what is the position or the market cap where it would be 721 00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:06,320 clear for you that it's kind of like off to the races I want to 722 00:38:06,320 --> 00:38:12,160 say or like undeniable that this is the way to, you know, build a 723 00:38:12,160 --> 00:38:15,400 corporate treasury? Yeah, OK. 724 00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:17,040 Yeah. So 2 good questions. 725 00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:25,800 S&P 500 inclusion, we're, we're thinking how this works strategy 726 00:38:25,800 --> 00:38:28,360 has already hit all of the requirements to get included in 727 00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:32,040 the S&P 500 with the exception of 1, which is positive earnings 728 00:38:32,600 --> 00:38:35,040 at positive earnings of the last four quarters, some together. 729 00:38:35,120 --> 00:38:38,040 That's the final, you know, box that they need to tech in order 730 00:38:38,040 --> 00:38:43,280 to be, to be considered, to be considered for inclusion. 731 00:38:43,880 --> 00:38:46,760 And there's a committee that, you know, goes through and 732 00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:48,520 determines whether or not they get included or not. 733 00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:52,800 And so the, with the adoption of fasby fair value accounting, 734 00:38:52,800 --> 00:38:55,520 which will happen in Q1 here. So it'll happen at, at the end 735 00:38:55,520 --> 00:38:58,120 of Q1 with the May earnings report. 736 00:38:58,120 --> 00:39:01,680 We'll, we'll hear, you know, the, the new accounting 737 00:39:01,680 --> 00:39:05,400 framework, which will be able to allow companies to mark the 738 00:39:05,400 --> 00:39:08,320 Bitcoin to fair value at the end of the each quarter, which is 739 00:39:08,320 --> 00:39:10,480 different than how it, it's been done in the past. 740 00:39:10,560 --> 00:39:14,720 So this if there is a large gain or if there's any gain on the 741 00:39:14,720 --> 00:39:17,040 balance sheet for the Bitcoin held during the period, there's 742 00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:23,040 potential for Strategy to have significant accounting net 743 00:39:23,040 --> 00:39:27,680 income earnings per share, which would then, you know, check that 744 00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:31,000 last box that needs to be checked for them to be included 745 00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:34,600 in the S&P 500. So, all right, last year 746 00:39:34,840 --> 00:39:40,640 Strategy made $12 billion on their Bitcoin holdings, and you 747 00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:44,480 know that the accounting wasn't adopted last year. 748 00:39:44,480 --> 00:39:46,640 So if they would have adopted the accounting last year, I 749 00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:48,160 think there's a high likelihood that they would have had 750 00:39:48,160 --> 00:39:50,520 positive earnings, which could potentially get them included. 751 00:39:50,840 --> 00:39:53,600 But they've kind of held off on the adoption of the accounting 752 00:39:53,600 --> 00:39:56,400 for, you know, as long as they can, which is I think a 753 00:39:56,400 --> 00:39:59,320 strategic move recognizing how all of these things move 754 00:39:59,320 --> 00:40:02,840 together. Oh, you know, what would it 755 00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:04,560 take? I think the price of Bitcoin is 756 00:40:04,560 --> 00:40:08,680 to go up to $95,700 and at the end of Q2 now. 757 00:40:09,280 --> 00:40:12,280 In order for their positive, for the earnings, for strategy to be 758 00:40:12,280 --> 00:40:14,240 positive over the last four quarters, some together. 759 00:40:14,720 --> 00:40:17,080 And at that point they would then, you know, be technically 760 00:40:17,080 --> 00:40:21,680 qualified for the S&P 500. At that point, there's a 761 00:40:21,680 --> 00:40:23,600 committee that needs to come together and say, hey, should 762 00:40:23,600 --> 00:40:25,840 this company be included? And I suspect that there's going 763 00:40:25,840 --> 00:40:27,640 to be a lot of things that they're not going to like about 764 00:40:27,640 --> 00:40:29,520 strategy, They're not going to like the volatility. 765 00:40:29,520 --> 00:40:31,360 They're not going to like Bitcoin, they're not going to 766 00:40:31,360 --> 00:40:34,000 understand Bitcoin. And there's there's going to be 767 00:40:34,440 --> 00:40:36,160 bewilderment, right? Like there's going to be a lot 768 00:40:36,160 --> 00:40:39,440 of hatred, I think, because the market thinks they they should 769 00:40:39,440 --> 00:40:42,560 be in and the committee may not think they should be in. 770 00:40:42,720 --> 00:40:44,840 And I think that the game theory around this is really 771 00:40:44,840 --> 00:40:47,120 interesting as well, because you think about who makes money on 772 00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:50,120 the S&P 500. It's everybody that's offering 773 00:40:50,120 --> 00:40:53,760 these index products, right? So it's, it's BlackRock, it's 774 00:40:53,760 --> 00:40:57,280 Fidelity, it's Vanguard. And there's going to be pressure 775 00:40:57,560 --> 00:41:01,320 from the the those companies to say, hey, I think you should 776 00:41:01,320 --> 00:41:03,680 need to add strategy to the S&P 500. 777 00:41:03,840 --> 00:41:06,400 You know, I saw that you excluded them based on your 778 00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:08,560 committee meeting last last quarter and. 779 00:41:08,800 --> 00:41:11,240 Maybe I should send less people to the S&P 500. 780 00:41:11,240 --> 00:41:13,600 Yeah, right. Maybe I'll, maybe I'll shift 781 00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:17,960 over to buying more of QQQ, maybe NASDAQ 100 instead of the 782 00:41:17,960 --> 00:41:21,160 S&P 500 unless you include them. So there, there's going to be a 783 00:41:21,160 --> 00:41:23,880 lot of gamesmanship and just just to be a family on the wall 784 00:41:23,880 --> 00:41:25,840 and some of those conversations, I know they're, they're going to 785 00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:29,840 happen. So it'll just, it'll be an 786 00:41:29,840 --> 00:41:31,720 interesting, I think that will be one of the biggest stories in 787 00:41:31,720 --> 00:41:34,600 2025 is this concept, which it looks like we're going to have 788 00:41:34,600 --> 00:41:37,360 to wait another quarter at least to see what that what might play 789 00:41:37,360 --> 00:41:40,440 out there. But it could be an incredibly 790 00:41:40,440 --> 00:41:45,800 exciting thing to watch if, if Bitcoin goes back up to all time 791 00:41:45,800 --> 00:41:49,200 highs around 108,000, you're looking at strategy having a $12 792 00:41:49,200 --> 00:41:53,560 billion net earnings quarter, which, which would be massive, 793 00:41:53,600 --> 00:41:55,400 right? The company was valued at 2 794 00:41:55,400 --> 00:41:58,840 billion dollars 24 months ago. And like having an A single 795 00:41:58,840 --> 00:42:01,480 quarter with $12 billion of earnings in a single quarter, 796 00:42:02,040 --> 00:42:05,680 that's a huge accomplishment. So it, it will, it will be just 797 00:42:05,680 --> 00:42:08,720 so fascinating to watch this stuff play out because you know, 798 00:42:08,720 --> 00:42:13,320 the market is going to disagree on so many things, right? 799 00:42:13,320 --> 00:42:17,080 Like is, is every one of those dollars of earnings from the 800 00:42:17,080 --> 00:42:18,880 Bitcoin? Is that should that be treated 801 00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:23,760 the same as earnings from NVIDIA or you know, Meta? 802 00:42:24,120 --> 00:42:26,120 PE wise also. Yeah, right. 803 00:42:26,720 --> 00:42:29,080 How do you value the company? It should be valued on a Bitcoin 804 00:42:29,080 --> 00:42:31,480 standard, should be valued at a Fiat standard like and there's 805 00:42:31,480 --> 00:42:34,000 just going to be so much push pull argument, right? 806 00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:35,960 Like we're we're going to see that happen. 807 00:42:35,960 --> 00:42:37,880 And I think that, you know, we're going to see a lot of 808 00:42:37,880 --> 00:42:41,200 oscillation in the in the price of the of the stock moving 809 00:42:41,200 --> 00:42:44,200 forward because of that. Yeah, I I love that. 810 00:42:44,560 --> 00:42:46,560 You know what? What you just explained, I'm 811 00:42:46,560 --> 00:42:50,680 thinking like this is the this is the clash of the 0 sum game 812 00:42:50,680 --> 00:42:52,520 and the mutually beneficial game, right? 813 00:42:52,520 --> 00:42:58,360 If BlackRock is going to advocate for, you know, S&P 500 814 00:42:58,360 --> 00:43:01,880 inclusion of micro strategy because, you know it would 815 00:43:01,920 --> 00:43:05,120 benefit them. That's the entire point. 816 00:43:05,200 --> 00:43:07,640 And therefore benefit more of Bitcoin, you know, like that. 817 00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:11,720 Yeah, that, that I love, you know, because you are, you're 818 00:43:11,720 --> 00:43:14,920 forced to change your thinking basically once you're confronted 819 00:43:14,920 --> 00:43:17,160 with Bitcoin, whether you like it or not, right? 820 00:43:17,160 --> 00:43:21,280 So even if you're in the S&P 500, let's say the top 20 and 821 00:43:21,280 --> 00:43:24,680 like 3 companies adopt Bitcoin and you hate it, you still have 822 00:43:24,680 --> 00:43:26,880 to look at it. You know, that's why I love that 823 00:43:26,880 --> 00:43:29,320 thought, right? Like you have to, you have to do 824 00:43:29,320 --> 00:43:32,160 that. So you just mentioned also, you 825 00:43:32,160 --> 00:43:37,000 know, micro strategy is is is is a Ponzi is a pyramid scheme. 826 00:43:37,000 --> 00:43:40,080 Whatever people use and intertwine and mix, you know, 827 00:43:40,080 --> 00:43:42,560 they, they usually don't really know the definitions. 828 00:43:43,520 --> 00:43:46,080 Yeah. What what if I would ask you 829 00:43:46,080 --> 00:43:49,160 like, what's the top three FOD or misunderstanding of micro 830 00:43:49,160 --> 00:43:51,640 strategy? Like how would you disperse that 831 00:43:51,640 --> 00:43:55,080 that FOD or just kind of explain what they are doing? 832 00:43:55,080 --> 00:43:58,640 And one thing to add, because I also wrote down they borrow free 833 00:43:58,640 --> 00:43:59,920 money. How does that work? 834 00:43:59,960 --> 00:44:01,560 You know, I've seen people say that. 835 00:44:02,040 --> 00:44:04,880 Yeah, yeah. I think, I think one of the 836 00:44:04,880 --> 00:44:10,800 biggest things that most that the market misses is that, you 837 00:44:10,800 --> 00:44:14,520 know, they say that strategy is going to fail, right? 838 00:44:14,520 --> 00:44:17,200 Or they say like that this is this is going to be the next 839 00:44:17,200 --> 00:44:19,320 FTX, right? This is going to be a blow up, 840 00:44:19,320 --> 00:44:20,360 right? Like this whole thing is going 841 00:44:20,360 --> 00:44:22,440 to blow up. They're they're they're super 842 00:44:22,440 --> 00:44:24,800 over leveraged, right? Like we've seen the articles 843 00:44:24,800 --> 00:44:28,320 come out. Anybody that says that hasn't 844 00:44:28,320 --> 00:44:30,840 looked at the financial, so they don't like, they haven't looked 845 00:44:30,840 --> 00:44:34,400 at the, the actual balance sheet of the company or the financial 846 00:44:34,400 --> 00:44:36,720 strength, right? And so I, I've got some of the 847 00:44:36,720 --> 00:44:38,600 numbers pulled up here just for reference, right. 848 00:44:38,640 --> 00:44:41,920 Strategy holds $43 billion of assets. 849 00:44:42,080 --> 00:44:45,520 So their Bitcoin as of today is worth 43 billion and the debt 850 00:44:45,520 --> 00:44:50,160 that they have on the balance sheet is 8 to 8.2 billion, OK. 851 00:44:50,640 --> 00:44:54,440 So there's a huge buffer, right? They've got effectively five 852 00:44:54,440 --> 00:44:56,720 times as many assets as they do debt. 853 00:44:57,240 --> 00:44:59,760 And so their, their leverage ratio is around 20%. 854 00:45:00,920 --> 00:45:03,240 So when you, when you put that into perspective here, you're 855 00:45:03,240 --> 00:45:06,200 like, OK, well, what, what are other companies leverage ratios? 856 00:45:06,360 --> 00:45:07,920 You start to look at the rest of the market. 857 00:45:07,920 --> 00:45:11,760 And you know, the rest of the market has seventy 8090% 858 00:45:11,760 --> 00:45:14,240 leverage ratios. Like they just have, yeah, 859 00:45:14,240 --> 00:45:15,520 right. They, they've got a lot of debt 860 00:45:15,520 --> 00:45:17,920 relative to their assets. And that's, that's what I'm what 861 00:45:17,920 --> 00:45:20,200 I mean when you, when you start to compare like some of the top 862 00:45:21,040 --> 00:45:24,440 companies, the financial companies or even just companies 863 00:45:24,440 --> 00:45:27,880 in the, in the mag 7, right? They, they've got pretty high 864 00:45:27,880 --> 00:45:29,760 leverage ratios. They're, they're leveraged, 865 00:45:29,760 --> 00:45:31,440 right? Like that's, that's how the Fiat 866 00:45:31,440 --> 00:45:34,720 system works. You borrow money to take on a 867 00:45:34,720 --> 00:45:37,800 project to, you know, make more money. 868 00:45:38,080 --> 00:45:39,960 I would say you are incentivized to. 869 00:45:40,040 --> 00:45:42,240 Incentivize to do it. It's tax efficient, right? 870 00:45:42,240 --> 00:45:45,320 Like there's, there's so many, there's so many designs that it 871 00:45:45,320 --> 00:45:48,680 makes sense to just take on debt and, and build, build a business 872 00:45:48,680 --> 00:45:51,040 that way. And if you say assets, right, of 873 00:45:51,040 --> 00:45:54,840 these other companies, that would be that could be real 874 00:45:54,840 --> 00:45:58,160 estate or land like that, that that that is probably pretty 875 00:45:58,160 --> 00:46:01,280 solid. But everything after that IP 876 00:46:01,640 --> 00:46:04,080 machinery or computers, whatever. 877 00:46:04,080 --> 00:46:08,080 Like, you know, I like this because if you go down, you 878 00:46:08,080 --> 00:46:11,440 know, the steps and then compare that to Bitcoin and then Bitcoin 879 00:46:11,440 --> 00:46:15,160 is superior to every other asset that the company can hold, 880 00:46:15,160 --> 00:46:18,560 right? So yeah, how do you what's the 881 00:46:18,560 --> 00:46:24,240 fair value for micro strategy if they have more a lot of the best 882 00:46:24,600 --> 00:46:27,600 asset to hold in the world? Right, exactly, that's a good 883 00:46:27,600 --> 00:46:28,760 question. All right, like that's what 884 00:46:28,760 --> 00:46:30,920 everybody's trying to figure out. 885 00:46:30,920 --> 00:46:33,440 And and the reason I bring up this leverage ratio, which is 886 00:46:33,440 --> 00:46:34,800 important. You know, a lot of people are 887 00:46:34,800 --> 00:46:37,600 really focused on this, this cost basis, right? 888 00:46:37,600 --> 00:46:40,560 I think strategies cost basis for their 520,000 Bitcoin, 889 00:46:40,560 --> 00:46:44,760 something like, I don't know, 67,069 thousand, I don't know, 890 00:46:44,760 --> 00:46:47,520 something like that. And they, they think that if the 891 00:46:47,520 --> 00:46:49,880 price of Bitcoin goes below that, like strategies going to 892 00:46:49,880 --> 00:46:53,960 blow up, which is just the most false statement of all time, 893 00:46:54,480 --> 00:46:56,720 right? Like the, if the price of the 894 00:46:56,720 --> 00:46:59,800 Bitcoin goes down to just 69,000 or 67,000. 895 00:47:00,640 --> 00:47:04,000 Oh, oh darn. They have $35 billion of assets 896 00:47:04,000 --> 00:47:07,160 and $8 billion of debt. Right, like the point. 897 00:47:07,160 --> 00:47:08,840 This is like. Oh, darn. 898 00:47:08,840 --> 00:47:10,000 Right. Let's say it goes down to 899 00:47:10,000 --> 00:47:13,440 50,000. OK, well, now you've got $27 900 00:47:13,440 --> 00:47:16,080 billion of assets and $8 billion of debt. 901 00:47:16,080 --> 00:47:18,200 Like the company still works, right? 902 00:47:18,200 --> 00:47:20,600 These companies still actually incredibly financially strong. 903 00:47:21,160 --> 00:47:25,840 Isn't the goal of leverage to, yeah, borrow money to actually 904 00:47:25,840 --> 00:47:29,080 do something that is eventually worth more than what you 905 00:47:29,080 --> 00:47:31,440 borrowed? I mean, this is a simple 906 00:47:31,960 --> 00:47:36,440 financial mind here, but isn't that the whole goal as as long 907 00:47:37,240 --> 00:47:41,280 as you have something that is worth more than what you owe or 908 00:47:41,280 --> 00:47:43,800 basically in the green, let's call it in the in the green. 909 00:47:44,120 --> 00:47:49,880 And even companies that are 90% leveraged, you know that stock 910 00:47:49,880 --> 00:47:51,520 is still being bought. So yeah. 911 00:47:51,640 --> 00:47:52,640 Yeah, right. It's a. 912 00:47:53,000 --> 00:47:54,840 It's a weird argumentation. Yeah. 913 00:47:54,840 --> 00:47:59,120 And and like just a number to put it in perspective, right? 914 00:47:59,120 --> 00:48:02,560 Like first of all, of the debt that they hold on the balance 915 00:48:02,560 --> 00:48:05,240 sheet, none of it is encumbered. That means none of it is 916 00:48:05,240 --> 00:48:08,160 actually tied to the Bitcoin that they hold, right? 917 00:48:08,160 --> 00:48:11,520 There's no margin call. It doesn't exist, right? 918 00:48:12,240 --> 00:48:14,560 There are people yelling on the Internet, they're going to get 919 00:48:14,560 --> 00:48:16,680 margin called, they're going to have to sell their Bitcoin. 920 00:48:16,680 --> 00:48:19,400 It's like, no, that's just so, so wrong. 921 00:48:19,400 --> 00:48:20,840 Like it couldn't, couldn't be more wrong. 922 00:48:21,600 --> 00:48:23,800 And just to put it in perspective, the price of 923 00:48:23,800 --> 00:48:28,920 Bitcoin would need to fall to like $16,500 for an extended 924 00:48:28,920 --> 00:48:32,440 period of time before the assets are worth less than the debt 925 00:48:32,440 --> 00:48:33,520 that they hold on the balance sheet. 926 00:48:34,800 --> 00:48:36,880 So it's just, it's an astonishing number. 927 00:48:36,880 --> 00:48:38,880 And you start to think about like, OK, how do you manage risk 928 00:48:38,880 --> 00:48:40,120 here? Like what does that look like? 929 00:48:41,200 --> 00:48:43,680 And, and that's, that's some of the stuff that the strategy team 930 00:48:43,680 --> 00:48:46,280 is conceptualizing. The reason this works, right? 931 00:48:46,320 --> 00:48:48,160 As I, as I mentioned earlier, right? 932 00:48:48,160 --> 00:48:51,080 And thinking about how insurance companies can add these new 933 00:48:51,080 --> 00:48:53,640 products with different risk return metrics to their balance 934 00:48:53,640 --> 00:48:55,360 sheet, right? Like they, an insurance company 935 00:48:55,360 --> 00:48:59,640 can hold strategy preferred stock, but they can't hold 936 00:48:59,640 --> 00:49:03,720 Bitcoin. Now what strategy is doing is 937 00:49:03,720 --> 00:49:07,720 they're using their bound, the position within their capital 938 00:49:07,720 --> 00:49:12,440 stack as collateral. So that risk position within 939 00:49:12,440 --> 00:49:14,640 their capital stack, they're using that as collateral to 940 00:49:14,640 --> 00:49:17,920 design these products with different risk return metrics 941 00:49:17,920 --> 00:49:20,800 for the market. So the convertible debt, for 942 00:49:20,800 --> 00:49:24,240 example, in the event of a bankruptcy, the convertible 943 00:49:24,240 --> 00:49:27,880 debt, the convertible bond holders get paid first and then 944 00:49:27,880 --> 00:49:30,840 it's the preferred stockholders and then it's the convertible 945 00:49:30,840 --> 00:49:33,480 preferred stockholders, then it's the common stockholder. 946 00:49:35,040 --> 00:49:38,360 So you think about, OK, now I just monetized the collateral 947 00:49:38,360 --> 00:49:42,400 position of my capital stack. And the reason this is the 948 00:49:42,400 --> 00:49:45,760 reason this is like really valuable is because the products 949 00:49:45,760 --> 00:49:48,000 that they're offering to these different tranches of risk, 950 00:49:48,000 --> 00:49:51,160 right? They have, they have reduced 951 00:49:51,160 --> 00:49:54,240 upside. So the upside is capped and that 952 00:49:54,240 --> 00:49:57,080 they have reduced downside and the downside is capped, right? 953 00:49:57,080 --> 00:50:00,960 You've reduced the risk, you've de risked this, this product 954 00:50:00,960 --> 00:50:02,000 that they're offering to the market. 955 00:50:02,440 --> 00:50:06,480 Now the benefit, right, like the common stock shareholder 956 00:50:06,760 --> 00:50:09,600 benefits by taking on the excess volatility to the upside. 957 00:50:09,600 --> 00:50:12,600 So you get to take on excess upside, but you also take on 958 00:50:12,600 --> 00:50:17,240 excess downside. Now for most Bitcoiners, you're 959 00:50:17,240 --> 00:50:19,280 like, Bitcoins going to be here forever. 960 00:50:19,280 --> 00:50:22,160 It's not going to 0 like 0 is chopped off in my mind on 961 00:50:22,400 --> 00:50:26,040 Bitcoin. So, so for me, it's like, yeah, 962 00:50:26,040 --> 00:50:28,040 I want to take that excess volatility that these 963 00:50:28,040 --> 00:50:31,000 bondholders or these insurance companies or pension funds can't 964 00:50:31,000 --> 00:50:33,880 stomach because I believe in Bitcoin. 965 00:50:34,600 --> 00:50:37,960 And that's, that's the, that's why they're increasing Bitcoin 966 00:50:37,960 --> 00:50:41,360 per share into perpetuity. They're offering these reduced 967 00:50:41,360 --> 00:50:45,280 volatility products to the market and that excess excess 968 00:50:45,280 --> 00:50:47,880 upside and excess downside is getting delivered to the common 969 00:50:47,880 --> 00:50:50,360 stock shareholder via Bitcoin yield. 970 00:50:50,840 --> 00:50:54,880 Yeah. I kind of say, you know, Bitcoin 971 00:50:54,880 --> 00:50:58,400 is a asymmetric opportunity based on publicly available 972 00:50:58,400 --> 00:51:01,840 information. Would you say that MicroStrategy 973 00:51:01,840 --> 00:51:06,440 is similar but in the Transfi world? 974 00:51:08,320 --> 00:51:10,760 Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. 975 00:51:11,160 --> 00:51:15,080 I mean, I used to work in reinsurance and insurance. 976 00:51:15,760 --> 00:51:18,720 I left three months ago and it was hilarious. 977 00:51:18,720 --> 00:51:23,280 So I get, I would walk around and talk to some of these people 978 00:51:23,280 --> 00:51:26,480 in London and Bermuda and New York, and I'd talk about Bitcoin 979 00:51:26,480 --> 00:51:29,320 and I just get laughed at. Just get totally laughed at. 980 00:51:30,200 --> 00:51:32,560 It's so fun. And meanwhile, meanwhile, I, my 981 00:51:32,560 --> 00:51:36,760 response to getting laughed at is like, at the time, strategy 982 00:51:36,760 --> 00:51:38,920 was holding $20 billion of Bitcoin. 983 00:51:39,680 --> 00:51:42,400 And I would say like, look, this company is holding $20 billion 984 00:51:42,400 --> 00:51:48,400 of Bitcoin, 20 times larger than than your company, you know, and 985 00:51:48,440 --> 00:51:51,600 that that like made people pause a little bit and then they would 986 00:51:51,600 --> 00:51:52,720 just keep laughing at me and go on. 987 00:51:52,720 --> 00:51:56,000 It's like you're crazy and. I think this is field brain. 988 00:51:56,000 --> 00:51:59,040 I mean, I experienced the same. It's because you when you work 989 00:51:59,040 --> 00:52:01,520 in traffic by you're, you're playing around with money that's 990 00:52:01,520 --> 00:52:03,800 not yours. Like there's zero agency, you 991 00:52:03,800 --> 00:52:09,280 know, like there's no conceptualization of yeah, just 992 00:52:09,280 --> 00:52:12,440 of the numbers. Like it's like in in my 993 00:52:12,440 --> 00:52:16,120 experience, the people in Transfi work with money as if 994 00:52:16,120 --> 00:52:19,680 it's not real, you know, you know, the real value basically. 995 00:52:20,000 --> 00:52:23,440 But yeah, there's a certain mindset to that. 996 00:52:23,440 --> 00:52:26,800 And and yeah, once you step out, I mean, I always walked into the 997 00:52:26,840 --> 00:52:29,800 big bank in the business district in Amsterdam with my 998 00:52:29,920 --> 00:52:32,320 Bitcoin button on my backpack and I walked in and. 999 00:52:32,480 --> 00:52:34,560 I did the same. I had a little badge. 1000 00:52:34,600 --> 00:52:36,280 Yeah, I had a little bit good. Yeah. 1001 00:52:37,320 --> 00:52:38,920 I would go into meetings and people would be like, what is 1002 00:52:38,920 --> 00:52:41,880 that pin on your on your suit check And I was as a Bitcoin 1003 00:52:41,880 --> 00:52:45,000 pin. I love that, yeah. 1004 00:52:46,160 --> 00:52:48,040 What's Micro Strategy's end goal? 1005 00:52:48,040 --> 00:52:51,960 So how I've understood it, I checked that with, I think I 1006 00:52:51,960 --> 00:52:54,360 checked it with you, but also with Ben Workman before I 1007 00:52:54,360 --> 00:52:57,480 literally poured like everything that I still had liquid into 1008 00:52:57,480 --> 00:53:03,440 micro strategy. For me, it's it's, it's it's I 1009 00:53:03,440 --> 00:53:06,480 think the simplification is a portal from the old money to the 1010 00:53:06,480 --> 00:53:08,600 new money. They have basically opened the 1011 00:53:08,600 --> 00:53:15,480 door and are facilitating trad Fi with, let's call it custom 1012 00:53:15,480 --> 00:53:18,960 products for different type of buyers as you mentioned before. 1013 00:53:19,360 --> 00:53:25,080 And yeah, they're turning that dirty field money into pristine 1014 00:53:25,320 --> 00:53:28,640 Bitcoin collateral. And then it's rinse and repeat. 1015 00:53:28,920 --> 00:53:34,000 Yeah, my mind strategy is the bridge and the road to a fully 1016 00:53:34,000 --> 00:53:36,120 Bitcoin denominated future, right? 1017 00:53:36,120 --> 00:53:38,760 They, they are, they were going to be the largest financial 1018 00:53:38,760 --> 00:53:41,440 company in the world, right. If Bitcoin continues to go up 1019 00:53:41,440 --> 00:53:44,520 and we think that this network is capable of holding capacity, 1020 00:53:44,520 --> 00:53:47,000 like monetary capacity of the world, they're going to be the 1021 00:53:47,000 --> 00:53:50,280 largest company in the world. So a Bitcoin native bank. 1022 00:53:50,800 --> 00:53:54,720 Yeah, I, I think so. I mean, in, in terms of what 1023 00:53:54,720 --> 00:53:58,880 that exact future looks like, I mean, who knows, right? 1024 00:53:58,880 --> 00:54:02,720 Like we the, the, the world is moving so quickly and so fast 1025 00:54:02,720 --> 00:54:05,480 and evolving so quickly and so fast that it's, there are going 1026 00:54:05,480 --> 00:54:07,800 to be designs and products of things that we can't even 1027 00:54:07,800 --> 00:54:09,960 fathom. Five years from now we're going 1028 00:54:09,960 --> 00:54:12,560 to look back and say, wow, holy cow, five years from now, you 1029 00:54:13,000 --> 00:54:15,400 know, five years ago, we had no idea this, this existed. 1030 00:54:16,600 --> 00:54:19,280 I, I think some sort of financial operations absolutely 1031 00:54:19,280 --> 00:54:24,040 makes sense, whether that be offering lending products or 1032 00:54:24,040 --> 00:54:28,200 stable coins or insurance or, you know, different, different 1033 00:54:28,200 --> 00:54:29,400 types of products into the future. 1034 00:54:29,400 --> 00:54:33,160 But I, I, I think one of the biggest, one of the things I'm 1035 00:54:33,160 --> 00:54:35,600 most excited about is just the optionality, right? 1036 00:54:36,320 --> 00:54:40,320 It, it almost doesn't matter right now because they're 1037 00:54:40,320 --> 00:54:42,880 already leveraging the, the Bitcoin on the balance sheet to 1038 00:54:42,880 --> 00:54:45,280 make more Bitcoin, right, to buy more Bitcoin. 1039 00:54:45,440 --> 00:54:47,000 And that's something that a lot of people don't realize. 1040 00:54:47,000 --> 00:54:48,800 Everybody's like, what are they going to do in the future? 1041 00:54:49,520 --> 00:54:51,840 The future is now, like the future is already happening. 1042 00:54:51,840 --> 00:54:53,840 They're already leveraging, they're creating these new 1043 00:54:53,840 --> 00:54:58,760 financial products for the traditional financial world by 1044 00:54:58,760 --> 00:55:03,520 leveraging the collateral of the position of the capital stack. 1045 00:55:05,040 --> 00:55:07,640 People don't get that people, people don't get that right. 1046 00:55:07,640 --> 00:55:09,720 They, they're already using it like their Bitcoin is the 1047 00:55:09,720 --> 00:55:11,720 collateral. It's the best collateral on the 1048 00:55:11,720 --> 00:55:14,680 planet now. Now you have this unit, the 1049 00:55:14,680 --> 00:55:18,120 corporate balance sheet itself that sits around all the Bitcoin 1050 00:55:18,360 --> 00:55:21,960 is the transformer, right? The corporate balance sheet 1051 00:55:22,080 --> 00:55:27,880 transforms the the asset into a different tranche of risk that 1052 00:55:27,880 --> 00:55:29,440 has got different risk return metrics. 1053 00:55:29,480 --> 00:55:31,960 And that is already so interesting because they're only 1054 00:55:32,520 --> 00:55:35,960 edge. Only edge is Bitcoin, right? 1055 00:55:35,960 --> 00:55:41,280 So Bitcoin is already putting its stamp are, are planting its 1056 00:55:41,280 --> 00:55:45,600 flag like in in let's call it the, the finance world, right. 1057 00:55:45,600 --> 00:55:48,960 And yeah, like you said, I think the direction is towards 1058 00:55:48,960 --> 00:55:52,880 Bitcoin, you know, eventually. And I what I liked from what I 1059 00:55:52,880 --> 00:55:56,680 took away from 1 of Saders presentations was yeah, when we 1060 00:55:56,680 --> 00:55:59,440 bought Manhattan, we didn't know it was going to be, you know, 1061 00:55:59,560 --> 00:56:02,080 New York or when we bought, you know, what is it? 1062 00:56:02,800 --> 00:56:04,720 I don't I don't know that I'm not American, so I don't know 1063 00:56:04,720 --> 00:56:06,920 like the other things. But, you know, Louisiana, New 1064 00:56:06,960 --> 00:56:10,800 York is just that example. Like if you understand that 1065 00:56:10,800 --> 00:56:13,800 they're just like a pristine piece of land, you know, with 1066 00:56:13,800 --> 00:56:15,360 the ocean and the rivers and etcetera. 1067 00:56:15,360 --> 00:56:18,240 Like, OK, that's. And like the Dutch, you know, 1068 00:56:18,240 --> 00:56:21,280 I'm Dutch and the Dutch were really smart and they put it 1069 00:56:21,280 --> 00:56:23,480 like near this, you know, place in the water and they know 1070 00:56:23,480 --> 00:56:25,120 they're stuff like, yeah, that's what we need. 1071 00:56:25,120 --> 00:56:27,960 Like that's where we need to build, you know, a colony in the 1072 00:56:27,960 --> 00:56:29,720 city, etcetera. But how that's going to look 1073 00:56:29,720 --> 00:56:33,360 like, Yeah, no clue. But that bet was a great bet. 1074 00:56:33,360 --> 00:56:35,480 And I think that's how Sailor talks about it, right? 1075 00:56:35,480 --> 00:56:38,680 Like, OK, if this is the the capital of the future, if this 1076 00:56:38,680 --> 00:56:41,720 is the land of the future, like I need to plant my flag and be 1077 00:56:41,800 --> 00:56:44,480 in that land. And if people flock to that 1078 00:56:44,480 --> 00:56:47,200 land, then the opportunities will arise. 1079 00:56:47,560 --> 00:56:49,920 Yeah, yeah. And, and as I mean, just just 1080 00:56:49,920 --> 00:56:51,000 like what happened with me, right? 1081 00:56:51,000 --> 00:56:53,920 I mean, as, as the value of these assets continue to grow, 1082 00:56:54,600 --> 00:56:58,320 more people are going to, to use the term like, like escape the 1083 00:56:58,320 --> 00:57:00,200 matrix, right? Like more people are going to 1084 00:57:00,200 --> 00:57:03,600 exit and identify opportunities of how to continue to grow this 1085 00:57:03,600 --> 00:57:05,840 ecosystem. Because because I, I almost, 1086 00:57:05,880 --> 00:57:09,840 I'm, I'm indebted to it, right? I'm like indebted to the Bitcoin 1087 00:57:10,040 --> 00:57:13,320 ecosystem and, and indebted to, you know, growing and building 1088 00:57:13,320 --> 00:57:17,360 this thing because it will just continue to add more value to me 1089 00:57:17,360 --> 00:57:20,880 and my family and my friends like into, into the future, into 1090 00:57:20,880 --> 00:57:23,000 perpetuity. And I love the concept to write. 1091 00:57:23,000 --> 00:57:25,200 It's not a 0 sum game. We can all work together and 1092 00:57:25,200 --> 00:57:29,760 win, which in the Fiat world, it's I just, I got, it's such a 1093 00:57:29,760 --> 00:57:32,280 sick feeling when you, when you go to New York and you're like 1094 00:57:32,280 --> 00:57:35,520 talking to some of these people and like, it's just very clear 1095 00:57:35,520 --> 00:57:37,360 that it's like just kind of dirty, right? 1096 00:57:37,360 --> 00:57:41,160 Like they're just all trying to get an edge and they try to beat 1097 00:57:41,160 --> 00:57:43,520 somebody or steal somebody's business or do something like 1098 00:57:43,520 --> 00:57:45,840 that. And it's just incredibly 1099 00:57:45,840 --> 00:57:48,360 refreshing meeting and chatting with Bitcoiners about business 1100 00:57:48,360 --> 00:57:51,000 and finance and capital and what this stuff could be. 1101 00:57:51,720 --> 00:57:54,280 Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I think it was Jeff Booth that 1102 00:57:54,280 --> 00:57:56,680 said it's cooperative competitiveness. 1103 00:57:56,680 --> 00:57:58,960 And I really, like I said mutually beneficial, but he said 1104 00:57:58,960 --> 00:58:01,520 cooperative competitiveness. Yeah, that's it. 1105 00:58:01,720 --> 00:58:04,480 You know, you go from zero sum, you go to that. 1106 00:58:04,720 --> 00:58:09,200 So even if we don't really know where micro strategy is going, I 1107 00:58:09,200 --> 00:58:12,480 mean, like, yeah. So in my mind it's yeah, I call 1108 00:58:12,480 --> 00:58:14,880 it like Bitcoin native bank, like yeah, yeah, like you said, 1109 00:58:15,600 --> 00:58:19,040 there could be strategy coin, you know, like a stable coin 1110 00:58:19,960 --> 00:58:22,640 properly backed by by Bitcoin, for example. 1111 00:58:24,040 --> 00:58:26,320 It could be anything. But what do you mean this? 1112 00:58:26,760 --> 00:58:29,880 What do you think this means for for banks, insurers, etcetera? 1113 00:58:29,880 --> 00:58:32,560 Like think what we talked about is like there's an imperative to 1114 00:58:32,560 --> 00:58:35,440 move. You see more and more banks, by 1115 00:58:35,440 --> 00:58:39,520 the way, also talking about, you know, with the repeal of the Seb 1116 00:58:39,520 --> 00:58:42,400 121, you know, they can offer these custody services, 1117 00:58:42,400 --> 00:58:43,720 etcetera. They're, they're going to move 1118 00:58:43,720 --> 00:58:47,400 into it, you know, because there are many there, there's many 1119 00:58:47,400 --> 00:58:50,880 research that also already shows, you know, millennials, 1120 00:58:50,880 --> 00:58:52,440 Gen. Z are way more into crypto, 1121 00:58:52,440 --> 00:58:54,280 Bitcoin, etcetera. Like this is the new world. 1122 00:58:54,280 --> 00:58:58,480 They have to move towards that. But the insurer that I worked 1123 00:58:58,480 --> 00:59:02,320 at, we always called, so I worked in the innovation 1124 00:59:02,920 --> 00:59:05,000 department. They always talked about like 1125 00:59:05,000 --> 00:59:09,160 burning platform. I'd like they know that I don't 1126 00:59:09,160 --> 00:59:12,080 know, there's like 30,000 fintech startups in the world 1127 00:59:12,080 --> 00:59:13,320 and they all. Pick. 1128 00:59:13,680 --> 00:59:17,640 Like a little piece of of a big financial corporation, but then 1129 00:59:17,640 --> 00:59:20,400 they do that better, right? Like home, just home insurance 1130 00:59:20,400 --> 00:59:22,320 or you know, stuff, stuff like that. 1131 00:59:22,920 --> 00:59:26,080 These these big track five companies are basically already 1132 00:59:26,080 --> 00:59:30,320 all unbundled and they see that it's happening, but the premiums 1133 00:59:30,320 --> 00:59:33,280 that they collected will last them for, you know, probably 1134 00:59:33,280 --> 00:59:36,160 like 20 more years if they just keep it as a cash cow. 1135 00:59:36,160 --> 00:59:42,840 Basically. My question is more what what do 1136 00:59:42,840 --> 00:59:44,880 you think will happen in that space? 1137 00:59:44,880 --> 00:59:49,400 Do you think Bitcoin will be the big, let's call it the unbundler 1138 00:59:49,400 --> 00:59:51,800 or maybe the the, the Yeah, yeah. 1139 00:59:51,800 --> 00:59:53,120 I don't know how it's even called it. 1140 00:59:53,120 --> 00:59:55,360 I wanted to say like the bomb. That's not what I mean, but 1141 00:59:55,360 --> 00:59:58,000 like, yeah. Yeah, I think we're approaching 1142 00:59:58,000 --> 01:00:02,160 an adapter die scenario for like the, the larger, the larger part 1143 01:00:02,160 --> 01:00:04,840 of the financial services industry, right? 1144 01:00:05,800 --> 01:00:06,880 And it's going to happen over time. 1145 01:00:06,880 --> 01:00:09,240 It's going to take so much time. Again, I think a lot of people 1146 01:00:09,240 --> 01:00:12,320 underestimate how, how like how much time it takes for a large 1147 01:00:12,320 --> 01:00:15,360 capital to move and, and really understand what, what's going, 1148 01:00:15,360 --> 01:00:19,360 what's going on. So, you know, I, I don't think 1149 01:00:19,360 --> 01:00:21,720 it's this year, I don't think it's next year. 1150 01:00:21,760 --> 01:00:24,520 I, I think within the next 4 years, though, 4 to 8 years, 1151 01:00:24,520 --> 01:00:27,320 we're in this adapt or die scenario where companies are 1152 01:00:27,320 --> 01:00:29,320 really going to have to rethink their business model. 1153 01:00:30,400 --> 01:00:36,160 If if you've got other companies like, you know, like strategy, 1154 01:00:36,160 --> 01:00:38,680 just eating their lunch, whether it's, you know, offering a 1155 01:00:38,680 --> 01:00:44,720 lending product or a new, you know, it can evolve, it can 1156 01:00:44,720 --> 01:00:46,640 evolve very quickly. I think there could be some 1157 01:00:46,640 --> 01:00:50,800 decoupling, right? If the companies that do adapt 1158 01:00:50,800 --> 01:00:53,280 here are, are going to continue to win. 1159 01:00:54,240 --> 01:01:00,120 If if they are truly, you know, buying this asset to hold for a 1160 01:01:00,120 --> 01:01:02,400 long term and and adjusting their business model to 1161 01:01:02,400 --> 01:01:07,800 accommodate it. Yeah, you mentioned before. 1162 01:01:08,640 --> 01:01:11,360 Well, basically I wanted to ask you why or when will the 1163 01:01:11,360 --> 01:01:14,560 bewilderment intensify? You mentioned before, you know, 1164 01:01:14,560 --> 01:01:18,000 you think it's going to 100 billion, two, 34500 billion, I 1165 01:01:18,000 --> 01:01:22,280 heard you say 1 trillion before. Like when will it be apparent 1166 01:01:22,280 --> 01:01:29,640 that this is undeniable? Yeah, I, I what I, what I think 1167 01:01:29,640 --> 01:01:32,440 can happen is right. Like strategy could go to 200 1168 01:01:32,440 --> 01:01:35,640 billion, five, 100 billion or a trillion and the market's going 1169 01:01:35,640 --> 01:01:38,160 to freak out, right? Like the, the whole market's 1170 01:01:38,160 --> 01:01:40,520 going to just totally freak out. What's going on? 1171 01:01:40,520 --> 01:01:43,640 What is this company Bitcoins of Ponzi, all the narratives that 1172 01:01:43,640 --> 01:01:47,440 we've already heard like 6 times in the in the last few run ups 1173 01:01:47,440 --> 01:01:50,400 and blow off tops, right? Like March and November, same 1174 01:01:50,400 --> 01:01:51,920 thing's going to happen again. It's just going to be on a 1175 01:01:51,920 --> 01:01:54,240 larger scale and then everybody's going to short it. 1176 01:01:54,240 --> 01:01:56,480 It's going to go back down. And you know, strategy is going 1177 01:01:56,480 --> 01:01:59,440 to have raised a ton of capital in the meantime, bought a ton 1178 01:01:59,440 --> 01:02:01,520 more Bitcoin. They're going to go down and 1179 01:02:01,520 --> 01:02:05,200 it's going to go from, you know, $750 billion market cap down to 1180 01:02:05,200 --> 01:02:09,000 a $250 billion market cap. And then everybody's going to 1181 01:02:09,000 --> 01:02:11,160 get bullish again and it's going to go right back up. 1182 01:02:11,160 --> 01:02:14,880 And then so I, I think you know, where, where people really start 1183 01:02:14,880 --> 01:02:18,200 to recognize this is like a sustained, A sustained $1 1184 01:02:18,200 --> 01:02:20,840 trillion market cap. Like with the, with the bottom 1185 01:02:20,840 --> 01:02:23,800 being a trillion dollars, like all of a sudden you have to take 1186 01:02:23,800 --> 01:02:27,480 it seriously like this. This company is if they go up to 1187 01:02:27,480 --> 01:02:31,360 2 trillion and come back down to 1, that's like that. 1188 01:02:31,400 --> 01:02:33,320 That company's going to stay here and that's going to be 1189 01:02:33,320 --> 01:02:36,240 around for a while. What's your timeline for that? 1190 01:02:37,200 --> 01:02:41,880 Like do I buy calls? No, no, I just. 1191 01:02:41,880 --> 01:02:46,520 Model. Yeah, it's, I think it, I mean, 1192 01:02:46,520 --> 01:02:48,000 I got. To be like overly bullish, but 1193 01:02:48,000 --> 01:02:51,400 more like what's just objectively or just realistic? 1194 01:02:51,480 --> 01:02:53,440 Not realistically, but just like rationally. 1195 01:02:53,440 --> 01:02:56,080 Like what? Yeah, like I, I right, we're 1196 01:02:56,080 --> 01:02:58,400 2025. Four years from now it's 2029 1197 01:02:58,400 --> 01:03:00,680 and eight years from now it's 2033, right. 1198 01:03:01,680 --> 01:03:05,520 Like honestly, the 2032 horizon I think is, you know, when we 1199 01:03:05,520 --> 01:03:08,600 get to this 1% of Bitcoin left behind over the next 100 years, 1200 01:03:09,120 --> 01:03:12,440 that's like that's, I want to, I don't want to say the end of the 1201 01:03:12,440 --> 01:03:15,400 gold rush, but like it's saturated, right? 1202 01:03:15,400 --> 01:03:17,280 Like it, it should be saturated by a point. 1203 01:03:17,280 --> 01:03:20,200 And the eight years of working in this stuff, now we're going 1204 01:03:20,200 --> 01:03:22,160 to see just, it's going to be fireworks, dude. 1205 01:03:22,160 --> 01:03:24,920 The next eight years are going to be just all sorts of just 1206 01:03:24,920 --> 01:03:28,280 crazy news and this stuff like it's going to be a lot of fun. 1207 01:03:28,760 --> 01:03:31,680 Yeah, I love it. Yeah, I got this question from X 1208 01:03:31,680 --> 01:03:34,360 and I'm going to ask our friends Richard Byworth the same. 1209 01:03:34,520 --> 01:03:37,160 But now that I'm talking to you, I thought this is this is a fun 1210 01:03:37,160 --> 01:03:39,320 question for you too. Yeah. 1211 01:03:39,440 --> 01:03:44,960 You are the CEO of Strategy for a week or a month or what's your 1212 01:03:44,960 --> 01:03:46,680 next move? What's your first next move? 1213 01:03:47,920 --> 01:03:54,280 That's a really good question. I would I would start a 1214 01:03:54,280 --> 01:03:58,000 Bermedian based reinsurance entity and start attacking the 1215 01:03:58,000 --> 01:04:00,400 insurance market. That's what I would do. 1216 01:04:01,120 --> 01:04:03,160 Like that. I know Richard's answer already, 1217 01:04:03,160 --> 01:04:04,840 but I'll, I'll let you know later on, yeah. 1218 01:04:05,200 --> 01:04:08,640 Yeah, look forward to seeing it. Yeah, Yeah, I would, I would be. 1219 01:04:08,640 --> 01:04:11,560 Well, I've, I'm obviously biased because I've got an insurance 1220 01:04:11,560 --> 01:04:15,680 background, but the, the, the insurance industry, I think is 1221 01:04:15,680 --> 01:04:18,480 ripe for innovation and just to get eaten by this industry 1222 01:04:18,480 --> 01:04:21,680 completely, Yeah. Yeah, I agree because. 1223 01:04:21,840 --> 01:04:24,360 Because there's these lids on innovation and by from 1224 01:04:24,360 --> 01:04:26,440 regulation and rating agencies and stuff. 1225 01:04:26,440 --> 01:04:30,480 It's just like if you start, if you find a way in or which I I 1226 01:04:30,480 --> 01:04:33,360 know of a few ways in and so does Ross Stevens at Stone 1227 01:04:33,360 --> 01:04:36,800 Ridge. But once like there's just a 1228 01:04:36,800 --> 01:04:40,240 huge Moat like you can, you can just start eating the industry 1229 01:04:40,240 --> 01:04:44,360 without the industry having any ability to fight back because of 1230 01:04:44,360 --> 01:04:47,080 the regulation and the rating agency involvement. 1231 01:04:47,080 --> 01:04:51,800 So that's an interesting space. Maybe you should start that 1232 01:04:51,800 --> 01:04:54,800 company. Yeah, it's all right. 1233 01:04:54,800 --> 01:04:58,480 It's a thought. So just like we're memeing 1234 01:04:58,480 --> 01:05:01,600 Bitcoin into existence, you know, decentralized retail 1235 01:05:01,600 --> 01:05:04,800 investing communities are becoming imperative for success 1236 01:05:04,800 --> 01:05:08,440 in a modern day, as we've seen with, you know, you guys teaming 1237 01:05:08,440 --> 01:05:12,000 up talking about MicroStrategy. I don't know how big the 1238 01:05:12,000 --> 01:05:15,960 irresponsibly long MSTR group is now, but 10s of thousands of 1239 01:05:15,960 --> 01:05:18,520 people. I think now you're joining Seder 1240 01:05:18,520 --> 01:05:21,280 on stage at the, you know, their event strategy world. 1241 01:05:21,600 --> 01:05:23,080 Yeah. How do you see the future of 1242 01:05:23,080 --> 01:05:25,600 investing or like these communities evolve? 1243 01:05:25,600 --> 01:05:28,240 I mean, this this is really showing the power of the 1244 01:05:28,240 --> 01:05:29,520 Internet, I think. Yeah. 1245 01:05:29,520 --> 01:05:32,040 Is this kind of like the new school of investing you think? 1246 01:05:32,520 --> 01:05:34,200 Yeah, absolutely. I, I think this is the way 1247 01:05:34,200 --> 01:05:36,160 investing is, is trending, right? 1248 01:05:36,640 --> 01:05:41,600 GameStop really kind of kicked the door open on taking down 1249 01:05:41,600 --> 01:05:43,240 Tradfi, right? Tackling Tradfi. 1250 01:05:43,760 --> 01:05:46,280 And this is, this is the new evolution, right? 1251 01:05:46,280 --> 01:05:48,520 Where you've got this new product, new innovation, 1252 01:05:48,520 --> 01:05:51,920 companies adopting Bitcoin, The Wall Street Journal isn't 1253 01:05:51,920 --> 01:05:54,480 covering this, right. Like Nope, nobody's exactly 1254 01:05:54,680 --> 01:05:56,600 right. Like I'm not grabbing my coffee 1255 01:05:56,600 --> 01:05:58,920 and a Wall Street Journal and sitting down in my cafe looking 1256 01:05:58,920 --> 01:06:01,280 at what strategies doing like it's just not happening. 1257 01:06:01,280 --> 01:06:02,640 The world doesn't move like that anymore. 1258 01:06:03,080 --> 01:06:05,200 And like last night I talked about it in our live stream, 1259 01:06:05,200 --> 01:06:07,400 right. Like everybody knows if like 1260 01:06:07,640 --> 01:06:10,560 Jerome Powell picks his nose, like is that is that dovish or 1261 01:06:10,560 --> 01:06:15,200 bullish or bearish, right? Like so you know, everybody's in 1262 01:06:15,200 --> 01:06:19,240 this hyper speed trajectory. You've got bots that are moving 1263 01:06:19,240 --> 01:06:21,880 at the speed of light and just fast as shit. 1264 01:06:22,280 --> 01:06:26,320 So but I think that the decentralized nature of people 1265 01:06:26,320 --> 01:06:29,280 that are following stocks and and communities building around 1266 01:06:29,280 --> 01:06:31,280 that is the way this just continues to move. 1267 01:06:31,280 --> 01:06:33,360 I think it's completely inevitable and we've seen it 1268 01:06:33,360 --> 01:06:35,760 with Palantir, we've seen it with gap lovin, we've seen it 1269 01:06:35,760 --> 01:06:41,560 with NVIDIA, honestly, Tesla and and even even Amazon, like when, 1270 01:06:41,560 --> 01:06:43,640 when Amazon first came out, like you've got these communities of 1271 01:06:43,640 --> 01:06:46,600 people that know what's going on, but the, the Internet has 1272 01:06:46,600 --> 01:06:50,000 made that more accessible and, and the, the, the cream rises to 1273 01:06:50,000 --> 01:06:51,640 the top, right? Like the people that are talking 1274 01:06:51,640 --> 01:06:53,680 about the stuff that know what they're talking about and care 1275 01:06:53,680 --> 01:06:55,280 and put our time and energy into it. 1276 01:06:55,880 --> 01:06:58,640 They're, they kind of like elevate into these leadership 1277 01:06:58,640 --> 01:07:01,280 roles, which is what I've really kind of found myself in. 1278 01:07:01,760 --> 01:07:04,960 And it was one of these like, Oh my God, I have to do something 1279 01:07:04,960 --> 01:07:08,320 with this or like, this is just going to fall apart. 1280 01:07:08,800 --> 01:07:13,040 It's like, I just felt this and this need to create something 1281 01:07:13,640 --> 01:07:16,400 because this movement is larger than me, right? 1282 01:07:16,400 --> 01:07:18,440 This is this thing is this is way larger than me. 1283 01:07:18,440 --> 01:07:24,080 And if there's a if there's a group of cohesive people that 1284 01:07:24,080 --> 01:07:28,560 have a calm head and understand the trajectory and the long term 1285 01:07:28,560 --> 01:07:31,960 nature of this, like this equity and this trade like that, 1286 01:07:31,960 --> 01:07:34,600 there's a ton of value in that. Whereas, you know, some of the 1287 01:07:34,880 --> 01:07:37,400 challenges that I think GameStop had is like roaring Kitty was 1288 01:07:37,400 --> 01:07:41,520 out here is like one guy, like posting his screenshots of like, 1289 01:07:41,520 --> 01:07:45,240 I made $200 billion. And then like everybody relied 1290 01:07:45,240 --> 01:07:47,440 on that one guy. There's a ton of pressure on one 1291 01:07:47,440 --> 01:07:48,760 person, right? Ton of pressure. 1292 01:07:49,320 --> 01:07:51,720 And now we're in this new scenario. 1293 01:07:51,720 --> 01:07:54,960 It's like, OK, well, now let's let's think about a group and a 1294 01:07:54,960 --> 01:07:57,360 group where everybody's got a role or everybody's working on 1295 01:07:57,360 --> 01:08:00,680 different things. Everybody's operating 1296 01:08:00,920 --> 01:08:04,880 efficiently and providing info and alpha to the environment of, 1297 01:08:05,440 --> 01:08:07,800 you know, what's going on here because it's a complicated 1298 01:08:07,800 --> 01:08:09,080 equity, right? It's like, that's why we're 1299 01:08:09,080 --> 01:08:11,040 talking, right? No, nobody, like a lot of people 1300 01:08:11,040 --> 01:08:14,480 don't get it. So, you know, my, my role is to 1301 01:08:14,480 --> 01:08:20,000 talk to people about it and continue to, you know, spread 1302 01:08:20,000 --> 01:08:22,439 the word, I guess. I think I love that because 1303 01:08:22,439 --> 01:08:25,319 it's, it's, I think it's similar with with Bitcoin in general. 1304 01:08:25,319 --> 01:08:28,120 I mean, I experienced it with, with doing a podcast like this. 1305 01:08:28,120 --> 01:08:32,600 It's and, and, and for micro strategy, for example, you, you 1306 01:08:32,600 --> 01:08:37,640 guys have helped me a lot to get insights and, and learning along 1307 01:08:37,640 --> 01:08:40,120 the way, right. But it's, it's, I, I think 1308 01:08:40,160 --> 01:08:43,800 that's where the edge really is. Like that's where you, you, you, 1309 01:08:43,840 --> 01:08:49,000 you, the opportunity is only apparent if you kind of like 1310 01:08:49,080 --> 01:08:51,080 look at it. That sounds very simplistic, 1311 01:08:51,080 --> 01:08:53,880 right? But it's more like, yeah, if I 1312 01:08:53,880 --> 01:08:58,279 think I got like MicroStrategy built in three days and like 4 1313 01:08:58,279 --> 01:09:00,760 videos and then seeing discussions and I'm like, yeah, 1314 01:09:00,760 --> 01:09:02,160 OK, these guys know what they're talking about. 1315 01:09:02,160 --> 01:09:04,439 And I knew that already because it was the same with Bitcoin, 1316 01:09:05,399 --> 01:09:06,920 right? Like if I look at someone who 1317 01:09:06,960 --> 01:09:10,120 has like 35 years in the risk chair, Greg Falls, and he said 1318 01:09:10,120 --> 01:09:12,359 he, he gives me a rational explanation of Bitcoin. 1319 01:09:12,359 --> 01:09:13,960 I'm like, yeah, what the fuck do I know? 1320 01:09:14,000 --> 01:09:18,399 You know, like, OK, this guy just explained it to me and I'm 1321 01:09:18,399 --> 01:09:20,840 totally following along. Like, OK, this is it like just, 1322 01:09:21,560 --> 01:09:24,600 yeah, you know, like that. And so I I love that. 1323 01:09:24,600 --> 01:09:27,920 And that's also still why I love Twitter X in that sense. 1324 01:09:27,920 --> 01:09:31,680 Like you can find people like yourself, like like Ben Workman 1325 01:09:31,680 --> 01:09:35,000 just yeah, like I said, you know, before we started talking 1326 01:09:35,000 --> 01:09:37,520 like we're just nerds, nerd in and just sharing that on the 1327 01:09:37,520 --> 01:09:41,040 Internet and anyone can pick that up, you know, and then you 1328 01:09:41,040 --> 01:09:43,640 can do your own due diligence and, and and, you know, take 1329 01:09:43,640 --> 01:09:45,720 your own action on that. But yeah, that's a super 1330 01:09:45,720 --> 01:09:47,720 accessible now. All right, I want to ask you my 1331 01:09:47,720 --> 01:09:50,800 last question because I I ask everyone the same question at 1332 01:09:50,800 --> 01:09:54,000 the end, which is what is a core belief that you will never let 1333 01:09:54,000 --> 01:09:56,480 go of. That is a good question man. 1334 01:09:56,480 --> 01:09:58,200 I should have prepared for this one as a core. 1335 01:09:58,200 --> 01:09:59,440 Belief. That's why I don't send it to 1336 01:09:59,440 --> 01:10:01,160 you. What is core belief that I'll 1337 01:10:01,160 --> 01:10:05,120 never let go of, man, honestly. Stay true to your, true to your 1338 01:10:05,120 --> 01:10:06,160 heart. Like listen. 1339 01:10:06,160 --> 01:10:10,600 Listen to your listen to your gut and keep keep the people 1340 01:10:10,600 --> 01:10:13,120 around you, right. So one of the things that I 1341 01:10:13,160 --> 01:10:16,000 continuously live by that you were the you're the average of 1342 01:10:16,000 --> 01:10:17,920 the five people that you spend the most time around. 1343 01:10:19,040 --> 01:10:22,400 Like I, I always strive to spend my time around some of the, you 1344 01:10:22,400 --> 01:10:25,040 know, brightest people that make me a better person and make me 1345 01:10:25,040 --> 01:10:27,600 positive and, and happy to happy to live. 1346 01:10:27,600 --> 01:10:29,840 So. And for me, it's like my wife, 1347 01:10:29,840 --> 01:10:32,240 my dogs and my friends that I've made in this community and some 1348 01:10:32,240 --> 01:10:34,800 of my close friends from college. 1349 01:10:34,800 --> 01:10:37,240 So yeah, I think. That's it man. 1350 01:10:37,920 --> 01:10:40,120 Thanks for sharing and thanks for this insightful 1351 01:10:40,120 --> 01:10:43,040 conversation, man Happy, happy we connected and happy to do it 1352 01:10:43,040 --> 01:10:43,640 again. Thank you. 1353 01:10:43,640 --> 01:10:44,680 Absolutely looking forward to it. 1354 01:10:44,680 --> 01:10:46,160 Thanks for having me on. I appreciate it. 1355 01:10:46,680 --> 01:10:49,600 We, we've got a show, MSTR True North happens every Wednesday. 1356 01:10:50,440 --> 01:10:52,880 Also have a podcast called the Hurdle Rate podcast that I'm 1357 01:10:52,880 --> 01:10:56,720 running with Ben Workman, Tim Kotzman and Strive CEO Matt 1358 01:10:56,720 --> 01:10:59,080 Cole. And we've got a lot of exciting 1359 01:10:59,080 --> 01:11:02,240 things in the horizon that I know that the MSTR True North 1360 01:11:02,240 --> 01:11:04,640 community is, is building a lot of things at the moment. 1361 01:11:04,640 --> 01:11:08,320 So a lot of things going to pop out here the next six months. 1362 01:11:08,320 --> 01:11:12,920 So stay tuned, follow along and yeah, excited, glad, glad I got 1363 01:11:12,920 --> 01:11:14,800 a chance to talk on here and yeah, look forward to the 1364 01:11:14,800 --> 01:11:16,560 future. Also man, I'm linking to 1365 01:11:16,640 --> 01:11:18,720 everything in the description of course so people can check it 1366 01:11:18,720 --> 01:11:19,320 out. Cheers. 1367 01:11:19,320 --> 01:11:19,800 Cheers. Thank you. 1368 01:11:20,000 --> 01:11:20,720 Thanks. See ya. 1369 01:11:21,600 --> 01:11:24,400 I hope you enjoyed this episode. If you did, you can click here 1370 01:11:24,400 --> 01:11:27,760 to find more just like it and click here to find all Bitcoin 1371 01:11:27,760 --> 01:11:29,800 for Millennials podcast episodes. 1372 01:11:30,160 --> 01:11:33,320 Also, please like this video if you want to help shine a light 1373 01:11:33,320 --> 01:11:36,320 on the message of Bitcoin and subscribe to my channel to stay 1374 01:11:36,320 --> 01:11:38,520 connected. I hope to see you for a next 1375 01:11:38,520 --> 01:11:39,520 episode. Bye.