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All right. 
Hey, everyone. 

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This is from Konstein and you're
listening to Bitcoin for 

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Millennials. 
Together with my guests on this 

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podcast, I go on a journey to 
discover how our current 

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financial system works, why it's
flawed, and why Bitcoin is the 

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most relevant technology that 
you should understand and adopt.

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Today, I'm joined by Knut 
Swannom. 

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He's a prolific thinker and 
author of several books on 

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Bitcoin. 
He writes about the 

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philosophical impacts of Bitcoin
and how it changes the world for

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the better. 
Yeah, there they are. 

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Some describe his writings. 
I don't know if you heard this 

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clute, but as a guided 
meditation that suits the 

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experience and tutors the 
uninitiated in the ways of 

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Bitcoin, I like that a lot. 
In his latest book about 

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praxeology, he talks about this 
approach to economics and social

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science, where logic and 
deductive reasoning alone could 

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provide more robust explanations
for people's actions than 

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empiricism ever could. 
I've already learned so much 

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from him and I'm very excited to
talk to him. 

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Knuth welcome. 
Happy to be here. 

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Good to see you, Ram. 
Thanks so much for coming on. 

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I just told you like I love your
thinking and your writing, and 

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it's just fun to see how far it 
it it travels. 

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And actually, when I read up on 
you more, I saw you were a tall 

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ship sailor before. 
Yeah, yeah, I did that for for 

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eight years. 
So I was the officer on a tall 

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ship of high school students on 
board. 

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Sailing around the the North 
Atlantic Ocean mostly and all 

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throughout Europe, Mediterranean
and the Caribbean and the US 

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East Coast. 
Yeah, nice. 

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I'll, I'll get back to that 
later because you have a 

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Robinson cruiserweight example 
in your book. 

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We'll we'll talk about that. 
But like first thing I want to 

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ask you like you are now a very 
prolific Bitcoin or Bitcoin 

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thinker. 
You share a lot about it, but 

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what made you not understand 
Bitcoin when you first 

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encountered it? 
Oh, that's a good question. 

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What made me not understand it 
the first time I encounter it? 

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Well, I guess like everyone 
before you do a deep dive you 

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you sort of dismiss it as an 
Internet fad. 

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And something that may or may 
not become something, but it's 

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only when you do the deep dive 
and you you try to like devil's 

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advocate your way through 
through the learning process and

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try to debunk everything because
it sounds too good. 

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And then at the end of the 
10,000 hours, or whatever you 

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need to put in to actually 
understand it, you realize that,

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holy shit, this this could 
actually deliver on its 

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promises, I guess. 
An important point for me was 

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the block size wars and how that
whole thing played out. 

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After that, my my conviction, if
you will, in Bitcoin became 

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much, much more robust because I
I saw that the users were 

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actually in charge and not the 
big companies and not the miners

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and that's that's. 
Key. 

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Yeah, Yeah. 
I find it very interesting that 

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also when when people talk about
Bitcoin, they mentioned humility

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a lot, right? 
Like, it humbles you once you 

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understand it. 
And I also think that when 

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everyone dismisses it at first, 
nobody understands it at first, 

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right? 
And like, a dismissal of a new 

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idea is actually very 
intellectually lazy and easy, 

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right? 
You just say like, oh, you know,

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it's a fad or it's a simple 
thing. 

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But once you actually do the 
work, I think that what humbles 

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you is your own, like the 
realization of your own 

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ignorance or something, right? 
Like that you actually. 

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Yeah. 
Honest in the beginning or 

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something. 
No, not honest to yourself. 

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I mean, I'm the obviously the 
most humble person in the world,

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no. 
But but on a on a serious note 

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there like the the humbling part
for for me personally the 

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humbling is all. 
I mean it does humble you, but 

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at the same time I had, I had 
personal success with my own 

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personal journey as a official 
person in Bitcoin, which I more 

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or less deliberately became. 
I mean my books got a little way

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more recognition that I that I 
expected and the other stuff as 

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well. 
So, so at the same time I I. 

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That Bitcoin humbled me. 
I I started to get all this 

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appreciation for for my work so 
but I'm going to embrace that 

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and like of course I every every
single time I get a a like or a 

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kind comment it it still warms 
my heart. 

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I mean, I still appreciate 
everything so and I'm, I'm going

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to live my life to the fullest 
and I'm going to embrace this 

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and. 
If if people see value in what I

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do, I'm going to do more of it. 
I would probably do more of it 

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regardless. 
But but, but it does help fuel 

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the fire, if you will. 
Yeah, yeah, that's nice. 

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I talked with Thomas Ferrer in a
previous episode and once we 

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stopped recording, we just 
chatted about what we like, if 

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we like the conversation, you 
know? 

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And he said, well, it's actually
really nice to talk to someone 

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outside of my, like local social
circle and and see that like 

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another person came to the same 
conclusion or has the same 

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thoughts, right, that that 
because if you are alone on this

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journey to understand it, then 
sometimes you end up at a point 

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where you think like, no, it 
cannot be this big, right? 

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Like I I'm a bit crazy or 
something. 

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But it's nice to see the 
recognition in the thinking of 

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other people. 
Yeah, And The funny thing is 

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that that is true regardless of 
what what religion you belong 

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to, where you come from. 
Like you could have read a 

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completely different set of 
books but still end up at the 

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same conclusion. 
And I find that highly 

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fascinating to me. 
That's further proof that 

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there's something real in this 
that it it maps onto all sorts 

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of different world views, as 
long as you're. 

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Honest in your ex examination of
of this phenomenon, yeah, it's 

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actually, yeah you can interpret
it in a certain in, in different

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ways I'd say or maybe maybe it's
more like you can view Bitcoin 

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in certain ways but like the 
base layer of understanding is 

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is something that we share or 
something like that, right? 

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That it goes across the 
interpretations of certain 

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religions or, you know, whatever
you whatever you adhere to, I'd 

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say. 
Yeah, you need a certain level 

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of understanding of some of the 
concepts, and for not only one 

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field. 
So you need to know some basic 

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economics, specifically Austrian
economics. 

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Oh, excuse me. 
And you need some mathematics. 

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You need some computer skills, 
some knowledge about how the 

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Internet. 
Works I guess. 

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And yeah, you need to understand
game theory to a certain extent 

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as well to do 2 points, a lot of
dimensions. 

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And there's a. 
Lot of touch points and you need

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to know. 
I guess for. 

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A deeper knowledge you need to 
know about the energy sector and

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how that works and electricity 
and how electricity prices form 

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and all sorts of other stuff. 
But but still if you have a. 

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A pretty good understanding 
about a little bit of this and a

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little bit of that. 
In each of these fields, you can

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connect the dots and see that 
there's something here. 

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Yeah, yeah, I agree. 
Like I I don't have a like a 

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finance or economics background,
so I had no clue about those 

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dimensions. 
But that's maybe also why it 

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takes so long to fully grasp 
what you know. 

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This could be and like as long 
as you are curious and like 

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intellectually honest. 
Yeah. 

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And then sometimes that's. 
Yeah. 

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And sometimes that's an 
advantage rather than a 

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disadvantage to to not know too 
much about economics because 

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then you're untainted by 
Keynesian economics, the 

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Keynesian economics taught in 
modern universities. 

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So. 
So. 

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You ask yourself. 
Very basic questions, like how 

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could printing more money create
more wealth than like if if they

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can print money, why do we pay 
taxes? 

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And you know, why do people in 
the public, say, pay sector pay 

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taxes at all? 
Like simple questions like that,

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Yeah, yeah and yeah. 
Why a target of 3% inflation? 

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Why not 100? 
Yeah. 

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If and then and then you also 
get to these points I think 

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where you for example I liked 
in. 

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I don't know if we spoke about 
the example in the previous 

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episode, but like if all the 
money is amount is totaled in a 

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pizza with eight pieces, right? 
And then they print money. 

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The pizza doesn't get bigger but
the but the slices get smaller, 

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right? 
Yeah, it's a very good analogy 

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when you think about the total 
energy captured in the in the 

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first piece that's now divided 
in two pieces. 

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But if you buy the same thing 
that caused the same energy to 

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make, you still need the same 
energy. 

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So now you need instead of 1 
pizza unit, you need two pizza 

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units. 
Right? 

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When I heard that for the first 
time, without all my background,

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without having a background in 
this, I was like, yeah, that 

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makes sense. 
But then if you start thinking 

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and think like, Oh well, the 
people who are in charge of the 

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money supply, they do this and 
blah, blah, but it doesn't make 

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sense logically, doesn't make 
sense. 

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So then you quickly come to the 
conclusion that it must be 

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ideological in a way, right. 
They are beyond the beyond the 

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logic and reason. 
And it's more certain, yeah, 

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ideology that they follow. 
And that's where I think, well, 

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for me, some things clicked 
where I was like, yeah, I don't 

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adhere to the ideology. 
I adhere to the logic in this in

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this. 
Example and and when you unpack 

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it and when you realize what it 
means it's it's the hurdle is a 

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bit too big for people because 
they can't comprehend that that 

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all bankers are criminals and 
all central bankers are you 

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know. 
Really. 

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Really. 
Really. 

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Bad criminals, and there's no 
other way to explain it if if 

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you have. 
If you're allowed to counterfeit

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money, you're no better than any
other counterfeiter. 

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Like, why should anyone have the
privilege? 

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It's it's just vulgar and absurd
to think that's any human being 

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should be allowed the power to 
to print money for themselves, 

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which is basically what they're 
doing. 

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They're exchanging it for 
government bonds and whatnot 

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and. 
Fiat money gets created out of 

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thin air when when the bank 
gives out a a mortgage or a loan

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to someone. 
But but still it's at the heart 

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of the the whole system is is 
fraud and and that realization I

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think that's a bit too much for 
for people because they they 

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want to believe that. 
They're living in a society 

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that's functioning and that 
there's. 

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I mean, they're just also right?
Like if you think, yeah, I would

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never do that, then you think 
that someone else would never do

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that too. 
But that's not reality. 

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No, no. 
And also like the even the 

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people who run the Central. 
Banks at this point may not be 

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criminals themselves, or may 
not. 

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In their own minds, be criminals
because they they were born, 

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they were also born into a 
system that is broken at its 

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core and fraudulent at its core.
And then they know of nothing 

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else. 
I mean inflationary currencies 

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have been around for a long 
time, thousands of years. 

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I mean we we've had more or less
stable systems historically and 

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it wasn't until. 
You know 1971 where where the 

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dollar was finally cut 
completely loose from from any 

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connection to gold that that 
things have gone S the way they 

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have now during the last 50 
years but or 60 years but but it

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was always fraudulent to to. 
More or less fraudulent. 

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00:13:07,640 --> 00:13:11,880
Let's say that yeah we'll we'll 
get to that in a second but if 

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we take a step back. 
So as a former tall ship sailor 

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you of course Robinson Cruz away
example in the in your in your 

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book about praxeology which I 
think is is cool but like you 

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share his journey and that his 
journey mirrors the journey of 

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someone who discovers and 
understands Bitcoin. 

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Can you elaborate a bit on that 
how? 

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Yeah, I I. 
Deliberately left Bitcoin out of

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the Praxeology book. 
I'm not so subtly hinting at it 

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here and there, but I never 
mentioned the word Bitcoin. 

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And I mean crucial. 
Economics is a term in itself, 

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right? 
And and it's it's a good 

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00:13:51,680 --> 00:13:55,040
framework because it starts from
the individual and explains 

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00:13:55,040 --> 00:13:57,320
economics from the individual 
and up. 

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And I got the idea. 
For. 

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00:14:01,320 --> 00:14:04,000
For the Crusoe theme for the 
book, halfway through the 

229
00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:06,400
writing process. 
So like oh this is this is how 

230
00:14:06,400 --> 00:14:09,720
we tie this thing together. 
We we use Crusoe for all 

231
00:14:09,720 --> 00:14:17,400
examples and a lot can be 
learned from from just reasoning

232
00:14:17,400 --> 00:14:23,280
yourself to what would happen to
Crusoe if he did X or if he. 

233
00:14:23,280 --> 00:14:27,800
Did Y like if it's the first 
example I think is him catching 

234
00:14:27,800 --> 00:14:31,480
fish with his hands? 
And then he can catch X amount 

235
00:14:31,480 --> 00:14:36,520
of fish per time unit. 
And if he's if he saves up some 

236
00:14:36,520 --> 00:14:41,960
fish and chooses not to fish 
with his hands for X amount of 

237
00:14:41,960 --> 00:14:45,640
hours per day, but instead 
spends his time producing a net,

238
00:14:45,720 --> 00:14:52,040
then that sacrifice of capital 
allows him to catch more fish 

239
00:14:52,040 --> 00:14:54,720
per time unit later on in his 
life. 

240
00:14:55,280 --> 00:14:59,160
And that's the importance of of 
capital and the importance of 

241
00:14:59,160 --> 00:15:03,320
being able to save the fruits of
your labour for a later date, 

242
00:15:04,400 --> 00:15:08,640
yeah? 
So even there, you can see you 

243
00:15:08,640 --> 00:15:12,920
can draw parallels to how money 
printing is a crime. 

244
00:15:13,720 --> 00:15:16,000
Yeah. 
And it also kind of ties in with

245
00:15:16,920 --> 00:15:20,600
what Jeff Boots talks about. 
You know when he says that 

246
00:15:20,640 --> 00:15:26,440
technology should eventually 
make things cheaper, slash more 

247
00:15:26,440 --> 00:15:28,800
efficient, right? 
Like instead of catching fish 

248
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with your hands, when you invent
technology, like a net, in the 

249
00:15:33,280 --> 00:15:37,560
same time you have more fruits 
of the same labor, right? 

250
00:15:37,560 --> 00:15:39,760
So that is that the same 
illustration there. 

251
00:15:41,360 --> 00:15:46,600
Yeah, I I. 
Guess sorry I had to send a 

252
00:15:46,600 --> 00:15:52,600
message here. 
So can you repeat the question? 

253
00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:56,160
So the example that Jeff Booth 
gives about, you know, 

254
00:15:56,160 --> 00:15:59,320
technology makes everything 
cheaper slash more productive, 

255
00:15:59,320 --> 00:16:01,400
right. 
And so Robinson catches fish 

256
00:16:01,400 --> 00:16:04,720
with his hands, then he invents 
the technology of his net or he 

257
00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:08,640
creates a net and then in the 
same time frame slash energy 

258
00:16:08,640 --> 00:16:13,200
expenditure, he gets more fruit 
for the same labor, which 

259
00:16:13,520 --> 00:16:17,240
eventually, well, conceptually 
goes on and on, right. 

260
00:16:17,280 --> 00:16:21,880
But when you look at the current
system, that is that is what's 

261
00:16:21,920 --> 00:16:24,280
been broken in a sense. 
Yeah, yeah. 

262
00:16:24,480 --> 00:16:28,760
The the the thing with Jeff's 
argument there is that it's 

263
00:16:28,760 --> 00:16:32,320
absolutely true. 
It's not only that it would have

264
00:16:32,320 --> 00:16:35,560
been true. 
It is true at all times that the

265
00:16:36,680 --> 00:16:40,040
marginal cost of production in a
free market, the marginal cost 

266
00:16:40,040 --> 00:16:45,760
of production for all goods and 
services, all, all prices fall 

267
00:16:45,760 --> 00:16:47,600
to their marginal cost of 
production. 

268
00:16:47,600 --> 00:16:51,880
That's the sentence. 
So overtime, things get cheaper 

269
00:16:51,880 --> 00:16:55,280
and cheaper, and if they don't, 
you're using the wrong 

270
00:16:55,280 --> 00:16:58,480
denominator. 
It's as simple as that if you're

271
00:16:58,480 --> 00:17:00,960
using Bitcoin as your 
denominator, right? 

272
00:17:01,080 --> 00:17:04,599
Yeah yeah you could use Bitcoin.
You could use kilowatt hours. 

273
00:17:04,599 --> 00:17:08,440
The they that will give you a 
better result than using dollars

274
00:17:08,440 --> 00:17:13,000
and cents like yeah how how much
did what's the price of this in 

275
00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:16,359
kilowatt hours and or or what's 
the price of. 

276
00:17:16,359 --> 00:17:19,160
This in Bitcoin and that will 
give you a different figure than

277
00:17:19,160 --> 00:17:21,800
if you. 
If you denominate in dollars, 

278
00:17:22,560 --> 00:17:24,760
yeah yeah, I find that 
fascinating. 

279
00:17:24,920 --> 00:17:27,440
I had this example already on 
once. 

280
00:17:27,440 --> 00:17:34,080
If you go to tradingview.com and
you pick any stock, any index 

281
00:17:34,080 --> 00:17:38,720
and you put it against USD, then
the the numbers, the price goes 

282
00:17:38,720 --> 00:17:41,880
up mostly. 
But if you put it in the money 

283
00:17:41,880 --> 00:17:47,000
supply, it's mostly down. 
And actually the most 

284
00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:51,840
fascinating one I found was the 
NASDAQ about the tech stocks, 

285
00:17:51,840 --> 00:17:55,040
where the value of the current 
tech stocks. 

286
00:17:55,280 --> 00:18:00,840
So the value in M2 is less than 
at the height of the 2000.com 

287
00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:06,880
bubble, which arguably is. 
We can view that it's not less 

288
00:18:06,880 --> 00:18:09,400
valuable, right? 
Like we have more technology. 

289
00:18:09,400 --> 00:18:10,560
We have better technology. 
We. 

290
00:18:10,560 --> 00:18:12,040
Yeah, yeah, yeah, all these 
things. 

291
00:18:12,240 --> 00:18:14,800
But in value, it's absolute 
value. 

292
00:18:14,800 --> 00:18:19,080
It's down. 
Yeah, that's crazy. 

293
00:18:19,080 --> 00:18:21,160
Yeah. 
And it's because of money for 

294
00:18:21,280 --> 00:18:22,960
it. 
It's because someone is 

295
00:18:22,960 --> 00:18:25,520
counterfeiting money. 
That's our currency. 

296
00:18:25,520 --> 00:18:29,560
That's that is the problem. 
It's stealing from everyone, 

297
00:18:29,560 --> 00:18:32,120
everywhere at the same time, at 
all times. 

298
00:18:32,840 --> 00:18:39,280
And it's it's. 
Greatest scam ever committed and

299
00:18:39,280 --> 00:18:42,040
why is that so hard? 
To see why is that so hard to 

300
00:18:42,040 --> 00:18:44,080
see. 
Because everyone, because 

301
00:18:44,080 --> 00:18:48,040
everyone is living in it. 
Like everyone is so used to it 

302
00:18:48,440 --> 00:18:51,640
and have been for generations. 
So. 

303
00:18:51,640 --> 00:18:53,840
So we can't we can't see the 
truth. 

304
00:18:53,960 --> 00:18:59,000
It's like this is like. 
There are a lot of Christian 

305
00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:02,520
Bitcoiners out there who won't 
like this next thing, but but I 

306
00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:06,000
view Bitcoin as financial 
atheism. 

307
00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:10,200
Like we're we're not the cult, 
we're the ones leaving the cult.

308
00:19:10,280 --> 00:19:14,560
The cult is Fiat, because Fiat 
requires you to believe in 

309
00:19:14,560 --> 00:19:18,160
something that you can't verify.
Bitcoin does not. 

310
00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:20,680
It doesn't require you to 
believe anything. 

311
00:19:20,680 --> 00:19:23,520
It requires understanding which 
is another. 

312
00:19:24,000 --> 00:19:28,200
Another thing altogether so so I
don't think bitcoiners are 

313
00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:31,960
religious cult. 
We're we're the ones who are who

314
00:19:32,840 --> 00:19:37,360
have dared to left to leave the 
cult that we were in which was 

315
00:19:37,360 --> 00:19:40,520
the Fiat monetary cult. 
Yeah. 

316
00:19:41,160 --> 00:19:43,360
Yeah. 
Is this what you in the book you

317
00:19:43,360 --> 00:19:46,360
also talk about the truth 
goggles right is. 

318
00:19:46,360 --> 00:19:49,320
This. 
Yeah, Yeah, from that Carpenter 

319
00:19:49,320 --> 00:19:53,360
movie. 
It it gives you truth goes when,

320
00:19:53,360 --> 00:19:56,520
when you start seeing things 
from this perspective and from 

321
00:19:56,520 --> 00:20:00,640
an individualist perspective, a 
consensualist perspective if you

322
00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:03,760
will, or a bitcoiner 
perspective, and you denominate 

323
00:20:03,760 --> 00:20:07,080
stuff in Bitcoin, you see the 
world for what it truly is 

324
00:20:07,080 --> 00:20:10,920
instead of seeing this 
deliberate facade. 

325
00:20:12,360 --> 00:20:16,200
And how sometimes you hear 
people say like once you see it 

326
00:20:16,200 --> 00:20:19,200
you cannot Unsee it right in 
Bitcoin but how does that apply 

327
00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:23,640
to to then the current world 
like the current system If we 

328
00:20:23,640 --> 00:20:27,560
like the one of the goals of of 
this podcast is of course to 

329
00:20:27,840 --> 00:20:31,000
help people find the threats 
that they can pull right to 

330
00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:35,200
start their own like rabbit hole
journey. 

331
00:20:38,560 --> 00:20:42,720
What are these things that you 
that you couldn't Unsee anymore 

332
00:20:42,720 --> 00:20:45,800
once you saw? 
Like the once you stepped out of

333
00:20:45,800 --> 00:20:48,920
what you call the cult? 
Well. 

334
00:20:50,080 --> 00:20:52,040
You're seeing money printing for
what it is. 

335
00:20:52,840 --> 00:20:56,480
It's it's stealing from 
everyone's time everywhere. 

336
00:20:56,600 --> 00:20:58,400
Like that's that's the key 
thing. 

337
00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:03,760
But also seeing what the effects
of that is that everything gets 

338
00:21:03,760 --> 00:21:08,120
politicized. 
So in like in a totally free 

339
00:21:08,120 --> 00:21:14,760
market, the whoever can provide 
you the best goods and services 

340
00:21:14,760 --> 00:21:19,160
for the lowest price wins the 
market and. 

341
00:21:20,240 --> 00:21:24,400
Therefore they they are rewarded
and in the current system where 

342
00:21:24,400 --> 00:21:28,240
where the game is rigged so that
the closer you are to the 

343
00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:33,400
monetary spigot due to the the 
the cantilon effect kicks in, 

344
00:21:33,400 --> 00:21:36,960
which is that people who are 
closer to it get richer faster 

345
00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:44,720
and everyone else pays for that.
That asymmetry, so So what that 

346
00:21:44,720 --> 00:21:49,280
means in in real term is in real
terms is that it becomes more 

347
00:21:49,280 --> 00:21:53,560
important for a market market 
actor to be to have friends in 

348
00:21:53,560 --> 00:21:58,520
high places than to actually 
provide good good goods and good

349
00:21:58,520 --> 00:22:02,440
services. 
So for instance, for an airline 

350
00:22:02,440 --> 00:22:07,440
today, it's way more important 
to be connected politically so 

351
00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:10,680
that you can get bailed out when
when you don't sell enough 

352
00:22:10,680 --> 00:22:17,960
flight tickets than it is to 
actually provide a good flight 

353
00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:19,760
experience. 
Yeah, so. 

354
00:22:19,760 --> 00:22:23,800
So this is the thing. 
Everything becomes a political 

355
00:22:23,800 --> 00:22:26,560
game where lobbyism becomes very
important. 

356
00:22:27,120 --> 00:22:31,080
If you ever go to Brussels, I I 
urge you to drive through the 

357
00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:35,640
the, the block where all the 
lobbyists live, because that was

358
00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:40,800
very eye opening for me to see 
this luxurious apartments. 

359
00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:48,920
That is where the real power 
resides, whoever, because money 

360
00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:54,000
is a stronger force than than 
than political will. 

361
00:22:54,320 --> 00:22:57,960
So so. 
Politicians can be bought as 

362
00:22:58,200 --> 00:23:01,880
scientists can be bought. 
Everyone can be bought for the 

363
00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:06,160
for the right price, and if not 
outright bribed, they can be 

364
00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:11,960
pushed into focusing their 
attention and efforts in in 

365
00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:15,160
directions that they wouldn't 
have chosen on the free market 

366
00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:18,600
which which produces clown 
world. 

367
00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:23,760
Why we get these? 
Arbitrary things to to fight 

368
00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:30,040
about Instead of focusing on how
do we make like life better for 

369
00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:35,120
most amount of people, how do we
free up people so that they can 

370
00:23:35,120 --> 00:23:39,120
pursue life, liberty and and 
property and prosperity like 

371
00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:47,360
instead it becomes this game of 
appeasing no or or. 

372
00:23:48,120 --> 00:23:51,640
Pleasing the bureaucrats and 
pleasing the politicians and 

373
00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:54,360
pleasing the media. 
Yeah. 

374
00:23:54,360 --> 00:23:57,760
And is it also your airline 
examples? 

375
00:23:57,760 --> 00:24:00,040
Interesting. 
I think last week I read that 

376
00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:02,200
Delta. 
I think it was Delta Airlines 

377
00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:06,840
makes more money on the 
interests of their of the credit

378
00:24:06,840 --> 00:24:08,840
cards they they give out like 
their. 

379
00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:12,400
You know how do you call it like
flight points or whatever like 

380
00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:15,600
how you can say, yeah points 
like they get more revenue from 

381
00:24:15,600 --> 00:24:19,920
the interest on the cards than 
revenue from the flights that 

382
00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:24,240
the seats that that they sell. 
Yeah, Isn't that Then also like,

383
00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:32,400
does the brokenness of the money
also open up like the like I 

384
00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:36,240
almost want to say like the 
exploitation of the people who 

385
00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:38,760
are kind of, like subject to the
broken money, kind of like how 

386
00:24:38,760 --> 00:24:40,960
Delta has. 
Absolutely everyone. 

387
00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:43,800
What happens when money is 
broken and can't store value 

388
00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:48,800
over time is that people invent 
new money and they they use 

389
00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:51,720
other things as money. 
Like, yeah, real estate for 

390
00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:55,120
instance. 
People save in houses instead of

391
00:24:55,120 --> 00:24:58,560
saving in cash in a bank account
because that makes no sense 

392
00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:01,000
today since you lose money over 
time doing that. 

393
00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:05,000
So instead they invest in risky 
things. 

394
00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:07,320
That do not have a guaranteed 
return. 

395
00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:11,640
Nothing has a guaranteed return 
but but the money is broken so 

396
00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:17,000
you can't save in money so so 
air miles for instance becomes 

397
00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:22,480
becomes a a new means of of 
saving for the airline company 

398
00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:29,520
mostly but and yeah so every 
that is the air Miles are are 

399
00:25:29,520 --> 00:25:34,120
are. 
One aspect of every company 

400
00:25:34,120 --> 00:25:37,360
becoming a bank, when they're 
big enough they start to become 

401
00:25:37,360 --> 00:25:39,520
a bank. 
Like you can see supermarkets 

402
00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:43,800
having their own banks and like 
yeah, if you if you become a 

403
00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:46,560
member here you get this and 
that discount. 

404
00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:49,720
The same with you know large 
electronics stores and 

405
00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:54,320
everything. 
Every every large chain becomes 

406
00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:58,640
this bank like entity where 
where you're supposed to be 

407
00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:01,040
rewarded for being loyal to 
them. 

408
00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:05,080
And that is that is a product of
Fiat currency. 

409
00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:10,720
It it wouldn't exist if money 
wasn't broken And how about 

410
00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:15,800
because I I think you probably 
believe in a in a meritocracy 

411
00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:20,840
and and then also kind of in 
capitalism or what you said, 

412
00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:22,480
right. 
Like if I make the best products

413
00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:25,680
for the lowest price then I win.
And if you don't if if I make 

414
00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:28,080
better cakes than than your 
cakes then you lose. 

415
00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:29,400
You have to do something else 
right. 

416
00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:35,360
But yeah, the the capitalism in 
that definition is then also 

417
00:26:35,360 --> 00:26:37,840
broken because the money is 
broken, right? 

418
00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:39,840
Yeah, Well, it. 
Is capitalism? 

419
00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:43,560
Well, yeah. 
We've never had such a thing as 

420
00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:46,160
real capitalism. 
Like just like the argument the 

421
00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:50,040
the socialists used. 
Like the we've never seen real 

422
00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:52,600
socialism. 
I would argue that we've never 

423
00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:56,040
seen real capitalism. 
We we have seen real socialism. 

424
00:26:56,040 --> 00:27:00,640
It sucks, but we haven't seen 
real capitalism all we've seen. 

425
00:27:01,120 --> 00:27:03,600
Is more or less central 
planning, but it's always 

426
00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:08,960
centrally planned and so we'll 
see what happens in Argentina 

427
00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:11,080
here in the come forthcoming 
months. 

428
00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:17,440
But yeah, it's interesting to 
see the the reactions on that 

429
00:27:17,440 --> 00:27:19,560
also. 
I feel, but when the money's 

430
00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:21,320
broken, it's all central 
planning. 

431
00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:24,960
It doesn't matter if you're a 
Liberal or Conservative or a 

432
00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:30,480
Green Party or whatever other 
political. 

433
00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:35,240
I mean, it's all central 
planning at the end of the day, 

434
00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:38,360
because there's a central bank 
planning the supply of money. 

435
00:27:38,360 --> 00:27:42,760
So they that mechanism allows 
for political influence 

436
00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:47,720
everywhere, and politicians 
steering society into whatever 

437
00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:50,520
directions they see fit for 
their own interests. 

438
00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:54,720
And this ties into something I 
wanted to ask about the book you

439
00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:57,880
talk about. 
You discuss the relationship 

440
00:27:57,880 --> 00:28:02,400
between irrefutable statements 
about human beings in in the 

441
00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:07,720
book and what is the 
relationship with how Bitcoin is

442
00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:10,920
decentralized like? 
My interpretation is that you 

443
00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:12,400
know and we just talked about 
it. 

444
00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:17,680
I think like once we all accept 
that when people like you and I,

445
00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:21,320
when we are given the choice to 
exploit the system that we are 

446
00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:24,960
part of, like, but most people 
will do that although we think 

447
00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:28,280
we wouldn't like that is when a 
system is corruptible and you 

448
00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:32,480
can get a benefit from that, 
then you know there are people 

449
00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:37,400
who who do that right. 
And Bitcoin helps us mitigate 

450
00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:42,240
that human flaw because we 
cannot trust ourselves and 

451
00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:46,280
others like individually. 
We need a protocol or a set of 

452
00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:49,360
layers we can trust so that we 
don't have to trust other 

453
00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:51,800
humans, right? 
Like, that's the trustlessness 

454
00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:54,480
of Bitcoin. 
That's kind of like my 

455
00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:58,520
interpretation of that. 
Yeah it's a it's a pretty pretty

456
00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:02,760
solid explanation and I think 
the word decentralization gets 

457
00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:06,280
thrown around too much and and 
it's used in the wrong context 

458
00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:11,280
because decentralization is a an
unfortunate means to much 

459
00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:14,560
greater end. 
So the only reason that we need 

460
00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:18,600
decentralization is that what 
you said like that we can't 

461
00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:21,080
trust one another with. 
Controlling the money supply 

462
00:29:21,080 --> 00:29:24,640
would be way easier if there was
a trustworthy guy who could just

463
00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:29,120
keep one Excel sheet of 
everyone's transactions and we 

464
00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:32,680
could trust that guy, That would
be way cheaper, way faster, way 

465
00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:35,320
better in every sense. 
It's just that we have this 

466
00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:38,720
problem that we can't because 
the incentive to to abuse that 

467
00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:39,760
is too. 
Large. 

468
00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:43,560
So that's what the 
decentralization does it it 

469
00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:48,200
allows for a global. 
Free market. 

470
00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:49,680
Sound money. 
Sound money. 

471
00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:50,960
Free market. 
To exist. 

472
00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:54,440
And that is the real deal. 
Because that's what leads to the

473
00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:57,040
meritocracy. 
That's what leads what leads to 

474
00:29:57,040 --> 00:30:00,680
ever falling prices and better 
everything for everyone, 

475
00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:06,400
everywhere, all at once. 
And why is that then? 

476
00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:11,480
If like the money, so the 
technology we use to exchange 

477
00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:17,280
value with each other is 
transparent and open and all 

478
00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:20,840
these things, why does that make
it better? 

479
00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:23,160
It does. 
Does it then actually give us 

480
00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:25,280
more trust or what? 
What does it say about? 

481
00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:28,480
The well, it's not, it's not the
transparent and open here that 

482
00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:32,240
we need transparent and open to 
assure that this is actually the

483
00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:33,840
case. 
But the key point is the 

484
00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:38,720
absolute supply like the the 
finite supply the the the supply

485
00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:42,200
cap that that no one can ever 
make more of this thing. 

486
00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:48,880
So instead of having. 
This is actually a pizza that 

487
00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:53,880
that gets cut into 21 million 
pieces, or a 2.1 quadrillion 

488
00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:57,760
pieces to be exact. 
But this pizza can grow larger 

489
00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:03,120
and your share of the pizza 
stays the same no matter how 

490
00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:06,400
large the pizza gets. 
So abundance in in in. 

491
00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:12,560
In money scarcity everywhere 
else, and vice versa, abundance 

492
00:31:12,560 --> 00:31:16,200
and everything else requires 
scarce money. 

493
00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:20,200
And so that's also the meme 
right on the shirts that you're 

494
00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:22,360
wearing is everything. 
Divided. 

495
00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:27,520
Yeah, but but like 111 like a 
bit deeper on that. 

496
00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:32,040
I like the analogy of actually 
you have like all the money 

497
00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:34,160
units, right. 
Like what you said the 21 

498
00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:38,800
quadrillion is like the in 
Satoshi's like the smallest part

499
00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:42,840
of a Bitcoin. 
Those are the numbers to keep 

500
00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:47,880
count 1 satoshi equals etcetera,
but the pizza represents the 

501
00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:51,400
value, right. 
So those are two different 

502
00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:53,120
things. 
Yeah, it's. 

503
00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:58,600
Represents all economic value in
currently in Bitcoin. 

504
00:31:58,640 --> 00:32:01,200
Like, yeah, exactly. 
Yeah. 

505
00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:04,920
What people decided to save or 
store in Bitcoin then? 

506
00:32:05,320 --> 00:32:09,800
Yeah, yeah, exactly. 
It like we the the point of the 

507
00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:13,400
equation is that theoretically 
the entire world economy could 

508
00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:21,320
be be denominated in this not 
ever changing number which yeah.

509
00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:25,400
Translated easily to the least 
amount of characters, that's 

510
00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:27,160
everything divided by 21 
million. 

511
00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:31,760
That's what it means, yeah? 
Yeah, and it also means 

512
00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:33,880
everything now, but also 
everything in the future then, 

513
00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:34,640
right? 
Like. 

514
00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:37,760
Everything exactly, which is a 
completely mind blowing thought 

515
00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:41,240
because it changes everything 
about how everything works. 

516
00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:44,000
Like you could even imagine 
starting a company in the 

517
00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:47,280
future, not to have black 
numbers on your balance sheet, 

518
00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:51,960
but just to slow slow down the 
pace of your diminishing stack. 

519
00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:54,880
Because you need to pay for 
everything in Bitcoin, so your 

520
00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:58,040
stacks will eventually diminish 
even though your purchasing 

521
00:32:58,040 --> 00:33:00,960
power can still go up. 
So it's going to be very hard 

522
00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:05,520
for humanity to wrap their heads
around this, especially in the 

523
00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:08,160
long run. 
I think two more next week. 

524
00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:10,720
I'm talking to Michael Dunworth.
You know him. 

525
00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:12,800
Oh, great, great. 
Yeah, yeah, we're good friends, 

526
00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:17,680
so I love his mind too. 
But he talks about sending 

527
00:33:17,680 --> 00:33:20,760
Bitcoin to the future and 
basically doing what you just 

528
00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:23,040
said, right. 
You can send it to the future so

529
00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:26,600
you don't have it now. 
You can program basically a time

530
00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:29,600
lock, right, that you can only 
access it in 30 years. 

531
00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:35,680
And despite having the same 
amount, the number of whatever 

532
00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:39,640
satoshi's in the future, it will
represent a different value than

533
00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:41,280
what it represents now. 
Yeah, I. 

534
00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:46,520
Tell him, tell him I said that 
he should focus more on the on 

535
00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:50,760
weird numerology and stop 
worrying about magnets. 

536
00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:56,560
OK, I'll set this up before. 
Yeah, yeah, yeah, we talk, yeah,

537
00:33:56,640 --> 00:33:59,160
But. 
But I think that's also the fun 

538
00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:01,400
part. 
I think that there's something 

539
00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:04,640
in Bitcoin for everyone, right? 
Like whatever you find 

540
00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:07,760
absolutely or whatever floats 
your boat, like you can find it 

541
00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:11,280
in Bitcoin. 
And that's also why I think for 

542
00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:14,360
me at least, it's some sometimes
hard to communicate, that's 

543
00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:15,880
sort. 
Of like, yeah. 

544
00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:18,840
But of course there's something 
for everyone because it's money.

545
00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:21,920
Like there's something for 
everyone in money. 

546
00:34:21,920 --> 00:34:26,320
Like if if there's a thing that 
you can buy other things with, 

547
00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:29,880
the people are willing to trade 
for other things, of course 

548
00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:34,040
there's something in it for you.
Like it's the ultimate thing, 

549
00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:35,840
actually. 
Yeah, it is. 

550
00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:40,400
It's it's the thing with the 
with the least diminishing 

551
00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:45,920
marginal utility ever. 
If you follow that. 

552
00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:50,080
That's a long, complicated 
sentence, but it's one of the 

553
00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:54,159
loss of economics, the law of 
diminishing the marginal 

554
00:34:54,159 --> 00:34:57,880
returns. 
So if you if you have an apple. 

555
00:34:58,080 --> 00:35:01,880
If you're hungry, you can eat 
the apple if you have two 

556
00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:04,400
apples. 
The first apple will give you 

557
00:35:04,920 --> 00:35:06,880
more pleasure than the second. 
It will. 

558
00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:15,160
It will you're probably fed up 
after after the first apple. 

559
00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:18,560
OK, at least the first apple 
will give you nourishment to 

560
00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:21,120
find another apple to eat like 
so. 

561
00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:24,440
The each additional unit of a 
homogeneous good. 

562
00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:27,560
Which is also subjective, by the
way, but that's another story. 

563
00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:33,520
Has a diminishing return to you,
so like more of stuff, more 

564
00:35:33,520 --> 00:35:37,920
stuff of the same stuff doesn't 
really make you richer, because 

565
00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:41,520
like each unit of something has 
less and less value, and The 

566
00:35:41,520 --> 00:35:47,480
thing is money has a. 
This effect is in money too, but

567
00:35:47,480 --> 00:35:50,120
not to the same extent, since 
you can exchange money for 

568
00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:54,520
absolutely anything else. 
It has a very low diminish, 

569
00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:57,920
diminishment of the its marginal
utility. 

570
00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:02,680
But there's still a point where 
no where more money doesn't make

571
00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:09,400
any sense, like where it doesn't
bring you that much more joy or 

572
00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:10,760
what? 
It's one of the things I 

573
00:36:10,760 --> 00:36:17,800
actually wanted to ask like what
is wealth for you and does 

574
00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:23,400
wealth equates happiness? 
Well, wealth is like when you 

575
00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:26,880
study praxeology, you really 
realize the importance of using 

576
00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:30,440
the using correct worth the 
correct words. 

577
00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:32,560
Now you use the wrong word just 
because. 

578
00:36:33,200 --> 00:36:36,520
But wealth is different than 
being rich. 

579
00:36:36,520 --> 00:36:41,400
Like being wealthy sort of means
you have capital, and capital 

580
00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:48,320
can be capital goods or it can 
be money, or it can be some some

581
00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:52,840
way of storing time. 
So being wealthy to me is having

582
00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:57,680
a lot of capital, regardless of 
which shape or form, way, shape 

583
00:36:57,680 --> 00:37:01,640
or form that capital is. 
But being rich is to me is 

584
00:37:01,640 --> 00:37:10,000
another thing. 
Being rich sort of means getting

585
00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:16,080
to decide what to do for 
yourself as much as possible 

586
00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:20,080
during your life, like a person.
Who comes to the insight that 

587
00:37:20,080 --> 00:37:23,760
that's which they can do without
their own early on in life? 

588
00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:28,480
In my mind, it is a richer 
person than someone who's keeps 

589
00:37:28,480 --> 00:37:31,160
on chasing more money throughout
his life without really 

590
00:37:31,160 --> 00:37:39,240
questioning why. 
So if you really want to be free

591
00:37:39,720 --> 00:37:43,400
and able to do whatever you want
to do. 

592
00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:46,200
Then that is the thing to aim 
for. 

593
00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:49,120
Of course money helps with that 
since money is support. 

594
00:37:49,520 --> 00:37:55,560
At least true money as Bitcoin. 
Because money is supposed to 

595
00:37:56,000 --> 00:38:00,840
store store up time for you for 
later use so you can trade your 

596
00:38:02,440 --> 00:38:05,800
and the more of it you have, the
more you the the freer you are 

597
00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:08,280
because you can you can buy 
yourself time. 

598
00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:12,080
But another thing that frees you
up is realizing that you don't 

599
00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:15,000
need to be a materialist. 
You don't really need much more 

600
00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:22,760
than a toothbrush and and a 
laptop and a phone maybe, and I 

601
00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:26,080
would add a guitar to that, but 
other than that I have very few 

602
00:38:26,080 --> 00:38:29,920
material cravings and that frees
up a lot of time too. 

603
00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:35,280
So why do you think that is? 
I I I love that. 

604
00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:41,640
I see that as a common theme 
with a lot of people that see 

605
00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:46,200
and understand Bitcoin and own 
it, but it makes you more. 

606
00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:49,520
I don't think frugal is the 
right word, but it's. 

607
00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:54,320
Less materialistic, Yeah. 
Yeah, it's like and I think 

608
00:38:54,320 --> 00:38:56,120
there's. 
There's a very good explanation 

609
00:38:56,120 --> 00:38:58,040
for that. 
If you have inflationary money, 

610
00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:01,720
you're incentivized to spend it,
because if you don't spend it, 

611
00:39:01,720 --> 00:39:04,800
it loses its value. 
So you're always incentivized to

612
00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:10,840
buy more shit to get the the 
energy that it represents now. 

613
00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:11,760
Exactly. 
Exactly. 

614
00:39:11,800 --> 00:39:13,680
Future Whatever. 
You don't know how much. 

615
00:39:13,680 --> 00:39:14,080
Yeah. 
Yeah. 

616
00:39:14,080 --> 00:39:14,920
You have, right. 
Yeah. 

617
00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:18,000
Exactly. 
So you have a high time 

618
00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:20,160
preference. 
Basically, if you if you have a 

619
00:39:20,560 --> 00:39:23,320
money with a fixed supply, you 
have a low time preference. 

620
00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:27,440
And because you know that if you
don't spend but save instead, 

621
00:39:27,720 --> 00:39:30,120
you'll have more tomorrow, 
you'll have access to more 

622
00:39:30,120 --> 00:39:34,480
things, more goods, more 
services later on, and this is 

623
00:39:34,560 --> 00:39:38,440
the path to seeing that. 
Stuff isn't that important. 

624
00:39:38,560 --> 00:39:43,800
Like this is the path to seeing 
that living a more modest life 

625
00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:49,560
is key to to becoming wealthy in
the in the true sense of the 

626
00:39:49,560 --> 00:39:53,480
word in the in the long run and 
being or I should reduce the 

627
00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:56,960
word rich here in order to live,
live a rich life. 

628
00:39:58,040 --> 00:40:00,600
Yeah, I think two things. 
They're like, it slows your time

629
00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:02,600
down. 
Right. 

630
00:40:02,600 --> 00:40:06,160
It's we all have the same time. 
Well, whatever you think time 

631
00:40:06,160 --> 00:40:08,160
is, yeah. 
Everyone lives 100% of their 

632
00:40:08,160 --> 00:40:10,720
lives? 
Yeah, exactly. 

633
00:40:12,560 --> 00:40:14,360
No. 
But the lower time preference 

634
00:40:14,360 --> 00:40:20,000
also gives you the most mental 
space to think about. 

635
00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:22,080
What do I actually want to 
contribute? 

636
00:40:22,080 --> 00:40:25,160
Like, what do I want to do? 
Like the space for you to figure

637
00:40:25,160 --> 00:40:28,240
that out is created instead of 
consumed by whatever. 

638
00:40:28,240 --> 00:40:34,280
Quick, how do you say figure you
can get to satisfy? 

639
00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:37,200
Exactly. 
And here we come into the thing 

640
00:40:37,200 --> 00:40:39,600
that I just can't stop thinking 
about. 

641
00:40:39,600 --> 00:40:42,680
Because you get more time as a 
Bitcoin. 

642
00:40:42,680 --> 00:40:46,160
You get more time on your hands.
Because you realize this, these 

643
00:40:46,160 --> 00:40:48,960
things like you, you become 
incentivized to have a lower 

644
00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:51,920
time preference. 
So you so you save rather than 

645
00:40:51,920 --> 00:40:57,600
spend you you start prioritizing
quality over quantity and also. 

646
00:40:58,520 --> 00:41:02,400
For this to In order for this to
work, Bitcoin needs to work, and

647
00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:06,000
Bitcoin needs to succeed and 
grow its purchasing power over 

648
00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:08,120
time. 
So how do we make that happen? 

649
00:41:08,280 --> 00:41:12,760
We we help other Bitcoiners with
whatever they do. 

650
00:41:13,800 --> 00:41:17,360
So we're incentivized to save 
rather than spend and we're 

651
00:41:17,360 --> 00:41:19,040
incentivized to help one 
another. 

652
00:41:19,320 --> 00:41:21,160
So I'm that's why I'm on this 
pod. 

653
00:41:21,160 --> 00:41:24,600
I'm incentivized to help you and
that's why you're interviewing 

654
00:41:24,600 --> 00:41:25,960
me. 
You're incentivized to help me. 

655
00:41:25,960 --> 00:41:29,960
We want we both want the same 
goals here, not a 0 sum exchange

656
00:41:29,960 --> 00:41:30,480
no. 
Right. 

657
00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:33,960
So we're. 
So we're giving each other our 

658
00:41:33,960 --> 00:41:37,120
time right now. 
We're in a trade right now. 

659
00:41:37,640 --> 00:41:40,680
Yeah, without sending a single 
Satoshi, yes. 

660
00:41:40,840 --> 00:41:43,800
Which means that bitcoiners are 
incentivized to be fucking 

661
00:41:43,800 --> 00:41:46,560
awesome to one another and not 
spend. 

662
00:41:47,320 --> 00:41:51,320
So I see the the usage of money 
going down on a Bitcoin standard

663
00:41:51,320 --> 00:41:54,720
so that we won't need money as 
much as we did before because we

664
00:41:54,720 --> 00:41:58,280
just become better people, more 
trustworthy. 

665
00:41:58,280 --> 00:42:01,920
Because we have this base layer 
of trust already which allows 

666
00:42:01,920 --> 00:42:06,600
for more trust on the human 
layers on top of it because 

667
00:42:06,720 --> 00:42:08,800
because you can't cheat the 
system. 

668
00:42:09,920 --> 00:42:13,360
So so I see this. 
It's a wonderful transition, 

669
00:42:13,400 --> 00:42:16,040
basically. 
Yeah, because the the killer app

670
00:42:16,040 --> 00:42:18,840
of Bitcoin is you. 
It's not, it's not something 

671
00:42:18,920 --> 00:42:23,160
technical, it's the the human 
being that is changed from the 

672
00:42:23,160 --> 00:42:27,480
inside. 
So it it allows us to wear our 

673
00:42:27,480 --> 00:42:32,640
hearts on our sleeves and be be 
excellent to one another. 

674
00:42:33,880 --> 00:42:38,160
And this is fine when you yeah, 
I'll, I'll keep on the ramp. 

675
00:42:38,160 --> 00:42:41,880
This is sort of my shtick here. 
But if you think about what 

676
00:42:41,880 --> 00:42:49,320
Bitcoin is, so like Bitcoin has 
been described as anything from 

677
00:42:49,320 --> 00:42:55,360
from a potato to, you know, 
digital cash or hope or 

678
00:42:55,360 --> 00:42:58,760
whatever. 
Everyone frames it differently, 

679
00:42:58,760 --> 00:43:01,600
but at its core, it's ones and 
zeros. 

680
00:43:02,000 --> 00:43:09,600
It's just binary bits of 
information and we every 

681
00:43:09,600 --> 00:43:17,960
bitcoiner if to own a Bitcoin or
to possess a Bitcoin is just 

682
00:43:17,960 --> 00:43:21,600
keeping a secret. 
That's all it is if you memorize

683
00:43:21,600 --> 00:43:25,440
your 12 words and you destroy 
every other location the 12 

684
00:43:25,440 --> 00:43:28,880
words are in. 
You, You literally are the 

685
00:43:28,880 --> 00:43:30,840
bitcoins. 
There's no distinction between 

686
00:43:30,840 --> 00:43:34,400
the bitcoins and you. 
Yes, but unpack that a bit more.

687
00:43:34,400 --> 00:43:38,400
Every other Bitcoin that is not 
in someone's head, It still is 

688
00:43:38,520 --> 00:43:41,440
in someone's head because it 
requires that person to keep a 

689
00:43:41,440 --> 00:43:45,520
secret, the secret of the PIN 
code, the location of the 

690
00:43:45,520 --> 00:43:48,680
device, whatever. 
It always involves keeping a 

691
00:43:48,680 --> 00:43:52,840
secret somehow. 
So we are all our bitcoins. 

692
00:43:53,120 --> 00:43:56,000
We are the same entity. 
And if you think about what a 

693
00:43:56,000 --> 00:43:59,880
node is, it's a it's a 
consciousness becomes a 

694
00:43:59,880 --> 00:44:01,240
consciousness. 
No. 

695
00:44:01,240 --> 00:44:04,880
Well, it's the node is just a 
fancy Abacus. 

696
00:44:05,400 --> 00:44:09,080
The only thing it does it it 
helps its owner do the 

697
00:44:09,080 --> 00:44:12,680
verification. 
Yeah, which is just a bunch of 

698
00:44:12,680 --> 00:44:15,960
calculations. 
So it helps its owner with the 

699
00:44:15,960 --> 00:44:20,520
maths, but it's still the owner.
There needs to be human action. 

700
00:44:21,720 --> 00:44:26,040
The A guy needs to or girl needs
to buy this thing, plug it in, 

701
00:44:26,040 --> 00:44:28,880
run the software, and do the 
verification himself. 

702
00:44:29,520 --> 00:44:33,840
Same is true for a miner. 
A miner is just it's not an 

703
00:44:33,840 --> 00:44:37,160
ASIC. 
It's a guy trying to guess a 

704
00:44:37,160 --> 00:44:41,160
number and he buys ASICS to help
him guess numbers faster. 

705
00:44:41,640 --> 00:44:44,360
That's all they do. 
They guess numbers. 

706
00:44:45,800 --> 00:44:50,680
So, so everything in Bitcoin is 
the people in Bitcoin? 

707
00:44:51,680 --> 00:44:55,760
They're using mental tools to 
help them calculate. 

708
00:44:55,840 --> 00:45:00,680
That's all there is to it. 
Yeah, so we are the bitcoins and

709
00:45:00,680 --> 00:45:06,280
they help us be more awesome to 
one another, which is just what 

710
00:45:06,280 --> 00:45:08,960
the fuck is this thing? 
It's, it's. 

711
00:45:09,280 --> 00:45:14,160
And that makes me think that 
means to me it also means taking

712
00:45:14,160 --> 00:45:16,640
ownership, right? 
Like that the the don't trust 

713
00:45:16,640 --> 00:45:21,640
verify you do the action to. 
To verify that other people 

714
00:45:21,640 --> 00:45:23,720
verifying but also adding so 
it's again. 

715
00:45:23,720 --> 00:45:25,960
This. 
No, no, it's it's it's yeah it's

716
00:45:25,960 --> 00:45:28,040
verifying that other people are 
truthful. 

717
00:45:28,600 --> 00:45:33,520
But if they if, if everyone was,
if there were no scammers, we 

718
00:45:33,520 --> 00:45:35,520
wouldn't need this thing. 
Yeah. 

719
00:45:35,520 --> 00:45:40,160
Which means that we all had this
with within us all along. 

720
00:45:40,320 --> 00:45:43,640
To me that's what this says that
we we never really needed this 

721
00:45:43,640 --> 00:45:45,880
in the 1st place. 
We only need it because we. 

722
00:45:46,400 --> 00:45:49,640
We didn't figure out any other 
way of how to unlock that 

723
00:45:49,640 --> 00:45:52,360
fucking immense power that is 
already within us. 

724
00:45:52,760 --> 00:45:59,240
Yes I yeah I I have to think 
about what you just said but 

725
00:45:59,240 --> 00:46:02,920
yeah I think I think for me like
I love this angle of Bitcoin 

726
00:46:02,920 --> 00:46:08,440
where the I saw I I I also think
like you see it almost and more 

727
00:46:08,440 --> 00:46:11,560
as a philosophy right. 
It's a philosophy that's kind of

728
00:46:11,560 --> 00:46:15,920
like backed by the in the the 
discovered technology in a 

729
00:46:15,920 --> 00:46:18,240
sense. 
But eventually it's it's not 

730
00:46:18,360 --> 00:46:22,120
just the technology. 
It's absolutely not way, way 

731
00:46:22,120 --> 00:46:26,040
more than that. 
I mean, the technology would be 

732
00:46:26,040 --> 00:46:30,920
nothing without the human actors
acting upon the technology. 

733
00:46:30,920 --> 00:46:34,200
Like if if humans didn't act, we
wouldn't have like we wouldn't 

734
00:46:34,200 --> 00:46:36,400
have any technology. 
But that's beside the point. 

735
00:46:36,400 --> 00:46:40,920
Like this specific technology is
literally nothing without these 

736
00:46:40,920 --> 00:46:45,760
users, yeah? 
A car is still a car whether or 

737
00:46:45,760 --> 00:46:48,520
not it has a driver in the in it
or or not. 

738
00:46:48,920 --> 00:46:52,680
But a Bitcoin is not a Bitcoin 
until a person interacts with 

739
00:46:52,680 --> 00:46:56,960
it, yes. 
And here's another because I'm 

740
00:46:57,760 --> 00:47:01,640
on A roll here. 
Like, here's another funny 

741
00:47:01,640 --> 00:47:06,560
thought. 
All all the numbers in Bitcoin, 

742
00:47:08,440 --> 00:47:12,120
that is to say all the private 
keys, all the bitcoins have 

743
00:47:12,120 --> 00:47:15,880
always existed. 
It's just that the hashing power

744
00:47:15,880 --> 00:47:24,400
was 0 up until 2009 or or 2011 
so but all the numbers were 

745
00:47:24,400 --> 00:47:27,480
already there. 
It's just that we didn't know 

746
00:47:27,680 --> 00:47:30,520
about this way to use them. 
So in that sense, it's way much 

747
00:47:30,520 --> 00:47:32,440
more of a discovery than an 
invention. 

748
00:47:32,800 --> 00:47:35,320
Yes. 
Yeah, I like to, I like to talk 

749
00:47:35,320 --> 00:47:37,800
about a discovery as well 
because, yes, I agree. 

750
00:47:37,960 --> 00:47:41,760
Just you also mean like just in 
general math exists. 

751
00:47:41,760 --> 00:47:46,120
The numbers existed already, 
it's how you utilize them and 

752
00:47:46,120 --> 00:47:51,080
then create the the the effect 
in the in the in the physical 

753
00:47:51,080 --> 00:47:53,360
realm in a sense, right? 
Exactly. 

754
00:47:53,680 --> 00:47:57,080
It's. 
And I don't know what I like in 

755
00:47:57,080 --> 00:47:58,400
Bitcoin. 
There's a lot of these. 

756
00:47:59,560 --> 00:48:02,040
What's the word in English? 
I don't want to say funny but 

757
00:48:02,040 --> 00:48:06,040
it's like it's like consequences
of Bitcoin that are actually 

758
00:48:09,560 --> 00:48:14,280
like soul things for the people 
that don't see Bitcoin at all 

759
00:48:14,640 --> 00:48:16,520
which I don't know how to call 
that in English. 

760
00:48:16,520 --> 00:48:19,400
But for example when we just 
talked about you know you your 

761
00:48:19,440 --> 00:48:22,480
time gets slower so you get more
mental space to figure out how 

762
00:48:22,480 --> 00:48:26,680
can I add value to mutual 
exchanges not the all these zero

763
00:48:26,680 --> 00:48:33,080
sum games etcetera. 
We by doing that, we well, by 

764
00:48:33,080 --> 00:48:38,160
adopting Bitcoin, the people 
slowly also undermine the system

765
00:48:38,160 --> 00:48:45,440
that other people keep afloat. 
And because they are so 

766
00:48:45,440 --> 00:48:48,000
entrenched in keeping this 
current system afloat, they 

767
00:48:48,000 --> 00:48:51,240
don't pay attention. 
Well, they they see Bitcoin, but

768
00:48:51,360 --> 00:48:53,320
well, we'll see. 
We'll see what happens, right. 

769
00:48:53,320 --> 00:48:55,440
But their the incentives are not
aligned. 

770
00:48:55,800 --> 00:48:59,720
So the people who are currently 
have the biggest incentive to 

771
00:49:00,160 --> 00:49:03,400
exploit the system. 
They will be the last to 

772
00:49:03,400 --> 00:49:06,520
actually. 
Yeah, that's wanted. 

773
00:49:07,160 --> 00:49:10,000
That's one aspect of it. 
But you can you can do that 

774
00:49:10,000 --> 00:49:13,880
thought experiment even deeper, 
like since this Bitcoin. 

775
00:49:14,160 --> 00:49:18,200
So as more and more money flows 
into Bitcoin, it also flows out 

776
00:49:18,200 --> 00:49:20,480
of the Fiat system, 
disempowering that and 

777
00:49:20,480 --> 00:49:24,000
empowering Bitcoin. 
Yes, but that's another thing as

778
00:49:24,000 --> 00:49:26,600
Bitcoin. 
As the Bitcoin economy grows, 

779
00:49:27,120 --> 00:49:32,240
that allows for a very well 
oiled global trading machine 

780
00:49:32,240 --> 00:49:34,840
that can trade goods and 
services over which. 

781
00:49:35,440 --> 00:49:38,960
Pushes costs down, production 
costs and transportation costs 

782
00:49:38,960 --> 00:49:44,560
down because of a free market 
competition for everyone, not 

783
00:49:44,560 --> 00:49:49,280
just bitcoiners, yes. 
Even Fiat people benefit, 

784
00:49:49,280 --> 00:49:52,200
whether they like to or not. 
From the success of Bitcoin, 

785
00:49:52,560 --> 00:49:54,000
yes. 
So. 

786
00:49:54,000 --> 00:49:58,360
So it's a success for absolutely
everyone except dishonest people

787
00:49:58,360 --> 00:50:01,800
who try to steal from others. 
That's those are the only ones 

788
00:50:01,800 --> 00:50:05,840
that have something to lose from
this do you think that's also 

789
00:50:05,840 --> 00:50:09,520
the biggest kind of like 
paradigm shift in a sense the 

790
00:50:09,760 --> 00:50:14,200
the like the the the you know 
don't trust verify is kind of 

791
00:50:14,200 --> 00:50:19,080
like aligned with you know we 
follow rules instead of rulers 

792
00:50:19,080 --> 00:50:22,280
and we follow the rules because 
we cannot trust ourselves and 

793
00:50:22,280 --> 00:50:26,000
therefore on also not the rulers
that's you know one realization 

794
00:50:26,000 --> 00:50:29,160
we talked about is that the 
biggest kind of like paradigm 

795
00:50:29,160 --> 00:50:35,640
shift that people also will need
to learn as in well it will make

796
00:50:35,640 --> 00:50:39,320
you more sovereign and more in 
control and give you more space 

797
00:50:39,320 --> 00:50:42,680
but you do need to do the work 
as well you you will get the 

798
00:50:42,680 --> 00:50:50,080
responsibility for also getting 
the the the those new positive 

799
00:50:50,640 --> 00:50:53,680
elements in the sense in your 
life like you also it's not free

800
00:50:54,240 --> 00:50:57,040
right where some stuff in the 
current system is free this is 

801
00:50:57,040 --> 00:50:59,840
not free. 
No, there's no such thing as a 

802
00:50:59,840 --> 00:51:01,720
free lunch. 
And there is also no second 

803
00:51:01,840 --> 00:51:04,480
breakfast as Michael Saylor 
would have put it. 

804
00:51:04,800 --> 00:51:13,600
So no, it's not free. 
But but over time as as number 

805
00:51:13,600 --> 00:51:20,400
grows up, people who who put in 
work and to put in the work to 

806
00:51:20,400 --> 00:51:25,880
understand this thing and get 
some Bitcoin and start changing 

807
00:51:25,880 --> 00:51:28,120
their lives in order to be able 
to. 

808
00:51:28,880 --> 00:51:34,360
Be more Bitcoiny are going to be
rewarded for that behaviour and 

809
00:51:34,360 --> 00:51:38,160
other people are going to see 
that, see that play out. 

810
00:51:38,800 --> 00:51:41,760
And then they're going to see, 
you know, they're going to keep 

811
00:51:41,760 --> 00:51:45,920
on seeing videos and photos of 
us bitcoiners having a swell 

812
00:51:45,920 --> 00:51:50,200
time at any everywhere in the 
world and just living our lives 

813
00:51:50,280 --> 00:51:55,120
as we see fit. 
And that is going to rub off on 

814
00:51:55,120 --> 00:51:57,880
other people. 
I mean, I. 

815
00:51:59,280 --> 00:52:03,080
When I quit my Fiat job, for 
instance, like, I think that at 

816
00:52:03,080 --> 00:52:07,400
least the more curious minded 
people in that office keep an 

817
00:52:07,400 --> 00:52:11,160
eye on me now and see what 
happens to me after I made that 

818
00:52:11,160 --> 00:52:14,440
move, if I'm doing OK or if it 
was a catastrophe. 

819
00:52:15,440 --> 00:52:19,600
And so it is. 
Whenever you choose to devote 

820
00:52:19,600 --> 00:52:22,440
your life to this thing, people 
will notice. 

821
00:52:22,440 --> 00:52:26,120
And that they will notice if you
fare well or not like. 

822
00:52:28,080 --> 00:52:30,400
So it is setting an example, I 
guess. 

823
00:52:30,640 --> 00:52:35,000
Yeah. 
And that's also that that number

824
00:52:35,000 --> 00:52:39,040
go up, right, Like the price 
that people see, the people that

825
00:52:39,040 --> 00:52:42,840
are also not yet into Bitcoin 
that is obviously like one of 

826
00:52:42,840 --> 00:52:48,200
the primary drivers because they
will be like OK, am I well they 

827
00:52:48,400 --> 00:52:50,040
they can still dismiss it 
obviously. 

828
00:52:50,040 --> 00:52:53,360
But some people, it's kind of 
like every cycle you get like a 

829
00:52:53,360 --> 00:52:56,200
new chunk of of people. 
That's. 

830
00:52:58,000 --> 00:53:04,800
It's going to take a while but 
yeah, but yeah, well what will 

831
00:53:04,800 --> 00:53:08,840
happen if we I I hear Peter 
Dunworth, like Michael Michael's

832
00:53:08,840 --> 00:53:10,520
brother. 
He talks about, you know, one 

833
00:53:10,520 --> 00:53:15,320
day we're going to wake up and 
one Bitcoin will be 1,000,000. 

834
00:53:15,960 --> 00:53:19,000
Will that be shocking enough for
most people to pay attention? 

835
00:53:19,000 --> 00:53:21,320
You think or hope I? 
Hope, I guess. 

836
00:53:22,040 --> 00:53:24,320
I guess we'll have to wait and 
see this, this. 

837
00:53:24,480 --> 00:53:26,600
It's hard to predict the future 
like that. 

838
00:53:27,280 --> 00:53:36,040
But I expect, like, I think 
we'll see, like if if I'm going 

839
00:53:36,040 --> 00:53:40,120
to make any predictions about 
the future, is that one of these

840
00:53:40,120 --> 00:53:44,400
bull runs is going to be the big
one where it goes absolutely 

841
00:53:44,400 --> 00:53:46,960
bonkers. 
Like where there's because 

842
00:53:46,960 --> 00:53:51,000
there's simply aren't enough 
bitcoins around, And when people

843
00:53:51,000 --> 00:53:55,000
realize that they they have 
everything to gain from not 

844
00:53:55,000 --> 00:53:56,600
selling, Not even in the bull 
run. 

845
00:53:57,560 --> 00:53:59,280
Then things will start to get 
weird. 

846
00:54:00,120 --> 00:54:05,440
So we might see these cycles a 
couple of more times before that

847
00:54:05,440 --> 00:54:10,200
happens, but one of these bull 
runs is going to be the bull run

848
00:54:10,200 --> 00:54:13,360
that that that triggers 
hyperbacronization. 

849
00:54:14,120 --> 00:54:20,200
And if like which sounds weird 
and sounds wild, but how 

850
00:54:20,200 --> 00:54:23,720
couldn't it be like? 
How? 

851
00:54:23,720 --> 00:54:26,040
How could you stop that from 
from happening? 

852
00:54:26,320 --> 00:54:31,400
How could you what how could you
stop people from realizing that 

853
00:54:31,400 --> 00:54:34,680
there's a better system? 
Like, it's unstoppable. 

854
00:54:34,760 --> 00:54:36,920
You you can't. 
Anything you will do will 

855
00:54:36,920 --> 00:54:39,880
legitimize it, I think, right? 
Like what you said, if people 

856
00:54:39,880 --> 00:54:42,920
move, that was one of my 
insights at one point. 

857
00:54:42,920 --> 00:54:45,480
Yeah, I thought like, I don't 
see it as buying Bitcoin 

858
00:54:45,480 --> 00:54:48,160
anymore. 
I see it as moving my my energy 

859
00:54:48,160 --> 00:54:51,640
from one system to another. 
So that's when I started doing 

860
00:54:51,640 --> 00:54:58,080
that and once they you know they
the the current system in the 

861
00:54:58,080 --> 00:55:00,160
current system they don't like 
it of course because they cannot

862
00:55:00,160 --> 00:55:02,400
make more money out of your 
money. 

863
00:55:02,400 --> 00:55:05,480
So they will start closing the 
doors probably that will happen 

864
00:55:05,480 --> 00:55:08,400
at some point and well you've 
we've already seen it happen and

865
00:55:08,880 --> 00:55:12,560
like those are these these 
things that will show some 

866
00:55:12,560 --> 00:55:16,680
people that hey is is the is the
money in the bank actually mine 

867
00:55:16,680 --> 00:55:20,560
and then what is money and why 
don't they want me to take out 

868
00:55:20,560 --> 00:55:25,040
that what I own and then you 
know slowly find out more about 

869
00:55:25,040 --> 00:55:27,880
how it works. 
But, but if any one of us runs 

870
00:55:27,880 --> 00:55:33,000
into legal trouble or whatever, 
I mean, look at how much they 

871
00:55:33,000 --> 00:55:36,840
raised for Hodlin odds trial 
against Craig Wright, for 

872
00:55:36,840 --> 00:55:39,360
instance. 
Yeah, like instantly everyone 

873
00:55:39,360 --> 00:55:43,960
shipped in and he raised a lot 
of money in no time. 

874
00:55:44,240 --> 00:55:46,760
And nobody knows knows him 
personally. 

875
00:55:46,760 --> 00:55:49,640
Well, I do, but most most 
bitcoiners don't. 

876
00:55:52,040 --> 00:55:55,680
And still they're on his side, 
because that's that battle was 

877
00:55:55,680 --> 00:55:59,200
important, and many future 
battles would be important too. 

878
00:55:59,200 --> 00:56:04,000
But there are a lot of wealthy 
people in this already, and we 

879
00:56:04,000 --> 00:56:06,720
got each other's backs, and 
we're everywhere around the 

880
00:56:06,720 --> 00:56:10,400
globe. 
The meet ups are small, but 

881
00:56:10,400 --> 00:56:13,200
they're everywhere. 
They're literally everywhere. 

882
00:56:15,280 --> 00:56:19,440
In in in Germany, there's a meet
up in every major city every 

883
00:56:19,440 --> 00:56:26,320
week in Spain, like, I went to 
one the other day here and I've 

884
00:56:26,320 --> 00:56:28,720
realized that they're almost 
everywhere here too. 

885
00:56:29,960 --> 00:56:34,160
They're in Valencia, Alicante, 
Madrid, Sevilla. 

886
00:56:34,160 --> 00:56:35,680
How can you stop it everywhere, 
right? 

887
00:56:35,680 --> 00:56:39,480
Yeah, that's it. 
I think it's more an idea. 

888
00:56:40,040 --> 00:56:43,120
Yeah, you can't. 
An idea whose time has come. 

889
00:56:43,120 --> 00:56:45,400
It's it's completely 
unstoppable. 

890
00:56:46,000 --> 00:56:48,240
Yeah. 
One thing I wanted to ask you 

891
00:56:48,240 --> 00:56:52,320
about as well, I think it was 
you who gave the example, and 

892
00:56:52,480 --> 00:56:59,000
correct me if I'm wrong, but 
about you can put a a seed, a 

893
00:56:59,160 --> 00:57:03,080
seed phrase in a in a vault 
somewhere in the world. 

894
00:57:03,800 --> 00:57:06,040
This was you, right? 
I think, I think so, yeah. 

895
00:57:06,040 --> 00:57:09,160
Yeah, you can put a seed phrase 
so the access to a Bitcoin 

896
00:57:09,160 --> 00:57:14,720
wallet in a vault somewhere and 
as long as you know the the 

897
00:57:14,720 --> 00:57:18,400
public key of it, so the wallet 
address, you can send value to 

898
00:57:18,400 --> 00:57:21,800
that without no. 
No, no, it's no, it's the other 

899
00:57:21,800 --> 00:57:24,560
way wrong. 
Yeah. 

900
00:57:24,600 --> 00:57:31,280
I mean so you you, but the the 
thought experiment is make a 

901
00:57:31,280 --> 00:57:37,080
paper wallet. 
And you obviously need the 

902
00:57:37,160 --> 00:57:39,080
private key outside of the 
vault. 

903
00:57:39,080 --> 00:57:40,960
Oh yeah, that was it. 
Yeah. 

904
00:57:40,960 --> 00:57:43,440
So you can access default 
without going to default. 

905
00:57:44,280 --> 00:57:48,240
Yeah, yeah, yeah. 
Or let me see if I if I Yeah. 

906
00:57:48,240 --> 00:57:49,920
Yeah. 
No, you're right. 

907
00:57:49,920 --> 00:57:53,160
You need the public. 
You only need the public key in 

908
00:57:53,160 --> 00:57:56,240
the vault, but you need to scan 
it first. 

909
00:57:56,880 --> 00:57:58,800
And then you can send money into
the vault. 

910
00:57:59,120 --> 00:58:02,280
It's a it's a ridiculous thought
experiment, but it's it comes 

911
00:58:02,280 --> 00:58:05,520
from a a true story. 
One of my first mind blow 

912
00:58:05,520 --> 00:58:10,080
moments in in Bitcoin was just 
fiddling around at home with 

913
00:58:10,080 --> 00:58:16,160
paper wallets. 
And I had one and I scanned the 

914
00:58:16,560 --> 00:58:21,080
the public key. 
And I put it in an envelope. 

915
00:58:21,320 --> 00:58:25,760
And then I sent Bitcoin to the 
paper in that envelope. 

916
00:58:26,400 --> 00:58:30,880
So I realized, like, I just 
beamed money through the through

917
00:58:30,880 --> 00:58:35,200
the envelope. 
Like how, though, how, how, how 

918
00:58:35,200 --> 00:58:37,040
can that work? 
And if I. 

919
00:58:37,200 --> 00:58:40,360
But The funny thing is, if I can
beam it through paper, I can 

920
00:58:40,360 --> 00:58:43,120
beam it through concrete as 
well. 

921
00:58:43,120 --> 00:58:45,000
I can beam it through anything, 
yeah. 

922
00:58:45,600 --> 00:58:47,800
Because it's information. 
This is the thing. 

923
00:58:47,800 --> 00:58:50,880
This is what element 0 is it. 
It has no weight. 

924
00:58:50,880 --> 00:58:54,520
It doesn't care about physical 
reality. 

925
00:58:54,520 --> 00:58:58,120
It's all in our heads, yeah. 
I think this is one of the 

926
00:58:58,160 --> 00:59:06,280
things that once you see this 
then I think you go all in on on

927
00:59:06,880 --> 00:59:09,640
understanding more of Bitcoin, I
want to say or Bitcoin itself. 

928
00:59:09,640 --> 00:59:16,160
But it's such a different way of
framing how something works. 

929
00:59:16,160 --> 00:59:20,120
Like it's actually feels way 
simpler in a sense than how a 

930
00:59:20,120 --> 00:59:23,320
lot of current things work 
because it's just the ones and 

931
00:59:23,320 --> 00:59:26,520
the zeros change and it 
corresponds with, you know, this

932
00:59:26,520 --> 00:59:30,800
hash etc. 
It's just I also had one thought

933
00:59:31,160 --> 00:59:33,840
some weeks ago that it's it's 
only text. 

934
00:59:33,840 --> 00:59:40,000
I read the the full blockchain 
is like 500 gigabytes I think 

935
00:59:40,000 --> 00:59:42,600
ish 600 gigabytes. 
And then I thought this is just 

936
00:59:42,600 --> 00:59:47,440
text it's only text it's just 
one big crazy text file in the 

937
00:59:47,440 --> 00:59:50,560
sense. 
And yes, when you give that 

938
00:59:50,560 --> 00:59:55,440
example of how you send a part 
of a Bitcoin to another number, 

939
00:59:55,560 --> 00:59:59,800
it just adds just numbers are 
added to this long list of 

940
00:59:59,880 --> 01:00:01,640
numbers and that is just it 
like. 

941
01:00:01,880 --> 01:00:04,720
It's crazy. 
Tie back to the example of the 

942
01:00:04,720 --> 01:00:06,600
paper wallet in the in the 
vault. 

943
01:00:06,920 --> 01:00:10,200
Because if if that money is to 
be usable, you need both the 

944
01:00:10,200 --> 01:00:14,200
private key you you need a a 
public key and a private key 

945
01:00:14,400 --> 01:00:17,000
printed on the same paper in the
wall in the vault. 

946
01:00:17,280 --> 01:00:20,400
Well, not the same paper, but 
you need both keys to be in the 

947
01:00:20,400 --> 01:00:22,520
vault in order for anyone to be 
able to spend it. 

948
01:00:23,320 --> 01:00:26,320
But you don't need to put the 
the The thing is you don't need 

949
01:00:26,320 --> 01:00:29,040
to put the money on the paper 
before you put it into the 

950
01:00:29,040 --> 01:00:31,520
vault. 
You can lock the vault first as 

951
01:00:31,520 --> 01:00:33,520
long as you you have the public 
key. 

952
01:00:34,080 --> 01:00:37,360
And also once you hold the 
paper, you can say this this 

953
01:00:37,360 --> 01:00:43,000
paper with in pen, written 
numbers, letters on it is worth 

954
01:00:43,480 --> 01:00:46,560
XYZ value right? 
Like like you can actually say 

955
01:00:46,560 --> 01:00:51,680
that and and that's what it 
represents is totally somewhere 

956
01:00:51,680 --> 01:00:55,280
else, actually. 
And how cool is a mnemonic seed 

957
01:00:55,280 --> 01:00:58,120
phrase really? 
Like that you can travel with 

958
01:00:58,120 --> 01:01:02,520
money in your head. 
Like it's it's it still blows my

959
01:01:02,520 --> 01:01:06,280
mind every day that that is 
absolutely, 100% real 

960
01:01:06,280 --> 01:01:08,360
impossible. 
It changes everything. 

961
01:01:09,320 --> 01:01:11,640
Yeah, I agree. 
I love. 

962
01:01:11,760 --> 01:01:14,120
I love these thoughts. 
So this is, yeah, yeah, the 1st.

963
01:01:14,200 --> 01:01:16,400
Talking to you, I love it the 
first time. 

964
01:01:16,480 --> 01:01:18,880
First time I had an epiphany 
about the 12 words. 

965
01:01:18,880 --> 01:01:23,840
It was like going through 
airport security a long time ago

966
01:01:23,920 --> 01:01:33,520
and like, and they emptied my my
bathroom bag and threw away my 

967
01:01:33,520 --> 01:01:37,440
toothpaste. 
And I'm like, all right, you can

968
01:01:37,440 --> 01:01:40,880
have my toothpaste. 
You can't have my 12 words. 

969
01:01:41,080 --> 01:01:45,960
Like, like there's no way you 
can have my 12 words. 

970
01:01:46,080 --> 01:01:48,800
There's not. 
You can't even know that I have 

971
01:01:48,800 --> 01:01:50,880
them. 
But go ahead and take the 

972
01:01:50,880 --> 01:01:51,400
toothpaste. 
Yeah. 

973
01:01:51,640 --> 01:01:54,240
No, no, this is absolutely true.
Like the the, the, the. 

974
01:01:56,920 --> 01:02:02,480
Not many people have felt that. 
Sovereign in a no in his. 

975
01:02:02,520 --> 01:02:05,560
Power in general, right? 
Yeah, exactly. 

976
01:02:05,560 --> 01:02:09,400
No, not never, never. 
It's it's a completely new mode 

977
01:02:09,400 --> 01:02:14,000
of being like and it allows you 
to be yourself to the fullest 

978
01:02:14,000 --> 01:02:16,920
extent possible. 
You don't have to play any Fiat 

979
01:02:16,920 --> 01:02:19,880
games. 
You can like, yeah, it's it's 

980
01:02:19,880 --> 01:02:23,440
like the example before you said
you appreciated me telling you 

981
01:02:23,440 --> 01:02:25,800
that I was lazy. 
So, like, So what? 

982
01:02:25,840 --> 01:02:30,200
Yeah, yeah, yeah. 
Yeah yeah fun. 

983
01:02:30,600 --> 01:02:33,640
It's fun it makes you it makes 
it simpler life or something 

984
01:02:33,640 --> 01:02:37,880
like I I find it fascinating to 
and also really really fun to 

985
01:02:37,880 --> 01:02:41,640
talk to more honest also helps 
you challenge my own fault. 

986
01:02:41,640 --> 01:02:44,120
Yeah, it's more honest. 
It's it's it's real. 

987
01:02:44,120 --> 01:02:47,280
It's also, I never really met a 
Bitcoin or I didn't like because

988
01:02:47,280 --> 01:02:53,400
we have some sort of common 
understanding about very. 

989
01:02:54,880 --> 01:02:57,720
Things that are very core to 
humans, I think, right? 

990
01:02:57,720 --> 01:03:00,840
Like that you discovered 
something within yourself that 

991
01:03:00,840 --> 01:03:03,720
you know is hard work. 
Like it. 

992
01:03:03,760 --> 01:03:07,640
It takes it takes work to figure
that out. 

993
01:03:07,640 --> 01:03:10,080
And and when you meet other 
bitcoiners, you know they did 

994
01:03:10,080 --> 01:03:14,200
the same thing and everyone has 
their own individual struggle in

995
01:03:14,200 --> 01:03:17,240
a sense, right? 
But that is what the bond is, I 

996
01:03:17,320 --> 01:03:19,160
think. 
So you can skip all the bullshit

997
01:03:19,160 --> 01:03:25,680
conversations about the weather 
and go go into how how entropy 

998
01:03:26,880 --> 01:03:29,360
is a requirement for 
consciousness or something 

999
01:03:29,760 --> 01:03:33,880
instead of like have these great
philosophical things instantly, 

1000
01:03:34,400 --> 01:03:37,200
yeah? 
So I I have two two last 

1001
01:03:37,200 --> 01:03:40,880
questions for you. 
One is like what are you talk to

1002
01:03:40,880 --> 01:03:43,200
a lot of people about Bitcoin, 
obviously, like what are the 

1003
01:03:43,200 --> 01:03:46,480
most common counter arguments 
you still face? 

1004
01:03:46,480 --> 01:03:51,320
And like how how do you respond 
to to them the counter 

1005
01:03:51,320 --> 01:03:55,120
arguments? 
Yeah, there are only bad ones. 

1006
01:03:56,440 --> 01:03:58,960
Like it's only used by 
criminals. 

1007
01:03:59,040 --> 01:04:02,960
And yeah, then you try to point 
out that the real criminals are 

1008
01:04:02,960 --> 01:04:06,400
the bankers and the central 
bankers and the politicians. 

1009
01:04:06,400 --> 01:04:08,760
But most people don't see the 
world that way. 

1010
01:04:10,080 --> 01:04:12,920
The other thing. 
When you say like when you say, 

1011
01:04:12,920 --> 01:04:14,640
there are no informed critiques,
right? 

1012
01:04:14,640 --> 01:04:16,040
That's also what Michael Saylor 
says. 

1013
01:04:16,040 --> 01:04:20,560
Like it sounds so it's a 
hyperbolic yeah, it sounds a bit

1014
01:04:20,560 --> 01:04:24,360
arrogant maybe yes, but like, 
well, there isn't none. 

1015
01:04:24,360 --> 01:04:28,600
Like they I I got the question 
for a questionnaire once, like, 

1016
01:04:28,600 --> 01:04:30,440
what's the biggest threat to 
Bitcoin? 

1017
01:04:30,440 --> 01:04:33,360
And the biggest threat I could 
think of was Godzilla. 

1018
01:04:34,040 --> 01:04:38,040
Godzilla is a laser eyed monster
with the, you know, fire breath 

1019
01:04:38,040 --> 01:04:43,800
and whatever 200 meters tall and
can destroy buildings that that.

1020
01:04:43,800 --> 01:04:46,240
That's probably the biggest 
threat to Bitcoin there is. 

1021
01:04:48,640 --> 01:04:51,520
Can you elaborate, like why this
is just a random answer, or 

1022
01:04:52,440 --> 01:04:57,040
well, well, it's at least as 
real as all the other threats? 

1023
01:04:57,080 --> 01:04:59,800
Like that, Yes. 
Just as. 

1024
01:05:00,400 --> 01:05:00,720
Yeah. 
Yeah. 

1025
01:05:01,080 --> 01:05:01,960
Unfounded. 
Yeah. 

1026
01:05:02,600 --> 01:05:04,560
All right. 
Yeah, fun. 

1027
01:05:04,760 --> 01:05:07,760
I I do think this is one of our 
challenges in the sense, like it

1028
01:05:07,880 --> 01:05:09,720
it sounds arrogant, but it's 
true. 

1029
01:05:09,720 --> 01:05:13,560
Like I would love to see debates
between, I don't know, you and 

1030
01:05:13,560 --> 01:05:17,560
someone who actually truly 
believes and can argument why 

1031
01:05:17,560 --> 01:05:19,680
Bitcoin is a Ponzi or this or 
that or whatever. 

1032
01:05:19,680 --> 01:05:21,800
But there are Show me that 
personal. 

1033
01:05:21,800 --> 01:05:23,440
There's nothing. 
There's nothing. 

1034
01:05:23,440 --> 01:05:24,680
Yeah. 
And that is also. 

1035
01:05:27,320 --> 01:05:30,680
Yeah, it's a rationale, right? 
Like, well, if you think it 

1036
01:05:30,680 --> 01:05:33,920
sucks, come and talk. 
You know, like, let's really 

1037
01:05:33,920 --> 01:05:36,520
talk about it. 
And because people don't do 

1038
01:05:36,520 --> 01:05:40,800
that, you know, they don't 
believe what they say they 

1039
01:05:40,800 --> 01:05:42,800
believe, right? 
Well, there are legitimate 

1040
01:05:42,800 --> 01:05:47,560
criticisms about some of the 
functionalities like the the fee

1041
01:05:47,560 --> 01:05:50,680
structure and that there always 
has to be a trade off between 

1042
01:05:50,680 --> 01:05:55,120
block size and fees and whatever
and also the. 

1043
01:05:55,560 --> 01:05:58,840
But the answer to that is, have 
you had never heard about the 

1044
01:05:58,840 --> 01:06:01,440
Lightning Network? 
And then there's criticisms 

1045
01:06:01,440 --> 01:06:04,920
about that, that 70% of the 
Lightning Network users use 

1046
01:06:04,920 --> 01:06:07,520
custodial services and not their
own thing. 

1047
01:06:07,960 --> 01:06:11,760
Yeah, but still it's better than
a fucking bank and you can still

1048
01:06:11,760 --> 01:06:15,560
put the stuff in cold storage 
when you can come home and just 

1049
01:06:15,560 --> 01:06:18,600
use this as a, you know, 
facilitator. 

1050
01:06:19,480 --> 01:06:25,360
And then there's criticisms 
about what else is there. 

1051
01:06:25,360 --> 01:06:27,960
Well, that's the 
environmentalist FUD, but that's

1052
01:06:27,960 --> 01:06:30,320
very easily debunked. 
There's nothing better for the 

1053
01:06:30,680 --> 01:06:34,640
for the planet than Bitcoin 
because you it leads the world 

1054
01:06:34,640 --> 01:06:37,760
where resources aren't 
misallocated anymore and that's 

1055
01:06:37,760 --> 01:06:43,280
the key thing and the consensus 
mechanism is yeah, I did this in

1056
01:06:43,280 --> 01:06:50,280
the Satoshi versus Oppenheimer 
video we made a couple of months

1057
01:06:50,280 --> 01:06:59,920
back about how the so Bitcoin, 
the Bitcoin network has has used

1058
01:07:00,160 --> 01:07:05,480
around 2000 Terra joules of 
energy so far or Exa joules or 

1059
01:07:05,480 --> 01:07:07,360
so. 
I don't remember exactly the 

1060
01:07:07,360 --> 01:07:14,960
figure or or the prefixes for 
it, but the point of the video 

1061
01:07:14,960 --> 01:07:20,920
is that the largest atomic bomb 
ever, the largest explosion made

1062
01:07:20,920 --> 01:07:25,720
by men, consume more energy than
the Bitcoin network has so far. 

1063
01:07:26,840 --> 01:07:32,000
So the worst thing you can do if
you want the the absolute worst 

1064
01:07:32,000 --> 01:07:37,160
thing you can do for the, for 
the, for the earth, for the 

1065
01:07:37,160 --> 01:07:41,440
environment is give money to the
state because they are the ones 

1066
01:07:41,960 --> 01:07:45,920
that keep exploiting it and keep
destroying it. 

1067
01:07:46,160 --> 01:07:49,360
Like that's the worst use case 
for. 

1068
01:07:51,600 --> 01:07:54,080
I mean, it's way worse than 
Bitcoin. 

1069
01:07:54,080 --> 01:07:58,720
Bitcoin is is enabling us to to 
not do that to the same extent 

1070
01:07:58,720 --> 01:08:04,200
anymore and to instead just have
a system where as few resources 

1071
01:08:04,200 --> 01:08:08,480
are misallocated as possible and
where people don't crave as much

1072
01:08:08,920 --> 01:08:11,080
consumers bullshit stuff every 
day. 

1073
01:08:12,560 --> 01:08:14,880
That's a that's a great, that's 
a great summary. 

1074
01:08:16,279 --> 01:08:18,200
All right. 
Last question, I asked everyone 

1075
01:08:18,200 --> 01:08:21,439
the same question. 
And that is what is a core 

1076
01:08:21,439 --> 01:08:23,200
belief that you will never let 
go. 

1077
01:08:26,279 --> 01:08:31,680
I believe that communication is 
the best tool we have for for 

1078
01:08:31,680 --> 01:08:34,279
anything. 
As long as we can communicate, 

1079
01:08:36,080 --> 01:08:39,160
we will figure stuff out. 
Awesome. 

1080
01:08:39,439 --> 01:08:41,200
Well, thanks for sharing. 
Thanks so much for this 

1081
01:08:41,200 --> 01:08:44,800
conversation. 
And I will link to all the 

1082
01:08:44,800 --> 01:08:47,520
places where people can can 
follow you your website. 

1083
01:08:47,520 --> 01:08:48,840
I'll link to the Oppenheimer 
video. 

1084
01:08:48,840 --> 01:08:50,720
I think that that's great. 
Yeah. 

1085
01:08:50,760 --> 01:08:53,760
And please link to the Freedom 
Footprint show as well and go 

1086
01:08:53,760 --> 01:08:56,920
and subscribe to that. 
People do that. 

1087
01:08:56,920 --> 01:09:01,800
So we'll have a lot of 
interesting stuff to come there 

1088
01:09:01,800 --> 01:09:05,359
on that Channel and we're doing 
a lot of great interviews here 

1089
01:09:05,680 --> 01:09:11,399
in the upcoming ones. 
So yeah, that's my main what I 

1090
01:09:11,399 --> 01:09:15,040
mainly do these days because I 
love talking to interesting 

1091
01:09:15,040 --> 01:09:16,880
people. 
Awesome. 

1092
01:09:16,920 --> 01:09:18,960
I'll make sure to to link to 
that. 

1093
01:09:18,960 --> 01:09:22,000
And yeah, everyone subscribe. 
And so thanks again, Knuth. 

1094
01:09:22,000 --> 01:09:24,040
And I hope, I hope to stay in 
touch. 

1095
01:09:25,399 --> 01:09:26,240
Thanks. 
Bye. 

1096
01:09:26,439 --> 01:09:29,160
Thanks, Cheers. 
I hope you enjoyed this episode.

1097
01:09:29,160 --> 01:09:32,160
If you did, it would be amazing 
if you could rate, review and 

1098
01:09:32,160 --> 01:09:34,760
subscribe on the podcast 
platform of your choice. 

1099
01:09:35,160 --> 01:09:37,720
It will help us educate more 
millennials on the importance of

1100
01:09:37,720 --> 01:09:39,760
Bitcoin. 
You can follow and connect with 

1101
01:09:39,760 --> 01:09:43,760
me on Twitter. 
I'm Bram K That's at BR AM K and

1102
01:09:43,760 --> 01:09:46,240
if you are or know someone who 
has an interesting perspective 

1103
01:09:46,240 --> 01:09:48,200
on Bitcoin that's worth sharing,
hit me up. 

1104
01:09:48,560 --> 01:09:50,319
I read and reply to every single
message. 

1105
01:09:50,319 --> 01:09:53,080
I appreciate your support and 
hope you'll be here for the next

1106
01:09:53,080 --> 01:09:54,560
episode. 
Thanks for listening. 

1107
01:09:54,840 --> 01:09:55,080
Bye.