All right. Hey there.
This is from Konstantin. You're listening to Bitcoin for
Millennials. In this episode, I'm joined by
two de Maester Tour is a prominent Bitcoin investor,
economist, and early adopter who's been involved with Bitcoin
since 2011. He's the founder of the Bitcoin
investment fund Adamant Capital and has been a longtime
proponent of Bitcoin as a sound and audible form of money.
Tour has been one of my most influential researchers and
educators in understanding Bitcoin, So I'm super grateful
and excited to talk with him today.
Welcome. And.
Thanks for having me. Thanks, Brent.
Yeah. Thanks so much for coming on.
Yeah. Like I mentioned, like, First
off, I really want to say like you're one of the people whose
work has been like super influential in, in my
understanding of of Bitcoin and especially like the economic
implications, the philosophy part, Austrian economics, like
all of that is not my background.
And yeah, you're one of the people that I learned a lot
from. So I want to thank you for that
because like, I know how nice it is to to hear that, but like
you, when you do stuff on the Internet, like you don't know
how far it travels, right? So I think.
You you, it's absolutely right. You have no idea and and of
course yeah, it's it's it's so cool to hear it and and at the
same time it feels right because there's been people that I've
learned so much from and this is just a way to pay it forward.
Yeah, exactly. I think you would agree that
once you understand Bitcoin and you talk about it, it it feels
like an altruistic motivation compared to what the critics
might say, that we are pumping our bags.
Pumping our bags. Yeah, I mean, in some way, I
feel like often times it's also just a way to deal with their
own insecurities about this. Like you just have to study it
because it's so different and it's and so in order to feel
comfortable having a lot of your future physic like your literal
personal future in invested in it it it requires a lot of study
and then it just helps to to talk and and share thoughts and
and discuss. Yeah, yeah, definitely.
So before we really jump in, I I heard before like you discovered
Bitcoin while you were travelling in Argentina.
What was it that you saw and what drew you in?
Yeah, I mean, it helped of course that I was already afraid
of what's happening in Europe and we had the first wave of
bailouts in 2008 nine and the banks were just teetering
really. Like Belgium has very big banks
and it's a small country. So I was already scared and
trying to find answers. And so that background really
helped to then, you know, visit my friends and see that they're
mining Bitcoin and learning about it and seeing also how
easy it was for them to move money in and out of the country.
Even though it was on financial lockdown like Cristina Kirchner
was very harsh on capital controls and things like that.
So it really was a almost a perfect environment to learn
about it. And my friends there were very
educated about it, so it really helped to set the tone and and
give me motivation to dive in deeper.
Yeah. And so it took a little time,
but eventually, I think just a few months, you recommended it
to people who followed your newsletter, right?
I think Bitcoin was like $5 I. Think I took about.
What was the most? Six months or something.
I think I first learned about it like in in in spring 2011 and
then I I the newsletter only launched.
I believe the 1st edition was like was maybe August or
September of that year and and I was very nervous because I had
never I'd never owned a stock before in my life.
And then here I was going to recommend people to buy stocks
and pretend that I knew what I was talking about.
So it was. There was also some hesitation
to come out and go full blast talk about Bitcoin to this, you
know, completely new audience. But also for myself, I needed
some time to to digest it more and talk to more people.
So I think I first wrote about it later in 2011.
Yeah. So what was the biggest thing
like? Like it looks like you got it
right pretty, pretty quick. You know, I think a lot of
people talk about that it takes some time to learn certain
things or unlearn certain things.
So I was wondering if there were like any specific things that
you ran into or was it pretty clear cut?
No, the thing that worried me was counterfeiting was can't
people just make more of it? It's digital.
Like how? How come you can't just make
more of it? And so then that's why it was so
helpful to talk to a few engineers early on to really get
an education on how Bitcoin works specifically.
But even then, Even so, I was still hedging for quite a while.
I was talking about cryptocurrencies and I said that
Bitcoin is the most prominent one for the moment.
And and, you know, maybe some others would come out, but.
But yeah, that counterfeiting thing was big.
And then if I had these, of course we all have the same
doubts come up over time like Oh well can't they hard fork it?
What about the miners? Can't they attack it like you?
You know you just go through the worries and but of course
Bitcoin talk back then the forums, that was the most
important online venue to discuss Bitcoin, bitcointalk.org
because it was so non commercial, it was practically
all engineers who were talking. So the level of conversation was
very high and the level of people with ulterior motives and
scammers was very low. So in in some way, it was a
special environment to do research in and and and the and
from the economic sense, there was not a lot of understanding
about where this could go. And so you know, like a lot of
engineers who are focused on security tend to have this
pessimistic mindset and that makes them so good, they're
constantly paranoid about what could go wrong.
And so I had several developers, Bitcoin developers stressed to
me, like, hey, this is a beta product.
Bitcoin isn't beta you, you, you can't just recommend.
I mean they didn't give me advice on what to do, but you
could feel their hesitation about like, oh, you're going to
talk about this like an investment.
Like it's it's it's we're just testing here, you know?
So. So the challenge was more on the
economic side. Yeah.
And so from from those early days till now, how do you think
what has been the biggest shift in your perspective over 11
years like on on Bitcoin? It just gradually, gradually
learning and and believing more and more that Bitcoin is is a
lever that can lift the world. Like that can really change
everything. It just there's so many
implications. And of course then you also
start to think about the implications of the introduction
of Fiat money and how that has changed everything.
It really is quite incredible. So the the the the realization
that there is a cultural shift going on here and that has been
it just it's it's it, it there's so many things that are affected
by it that you just can't wrap your head around it in in six
months or in a year, I don't think.
Not that I'm not that I feel like I've I've, I see it, right?
I mean maybe there's blind spots that I have or survivors bias
because Bitcoin has been so good to me.
Maybe I'm overlooking some serious issues with it.
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I'll keep going. Now let's get back to the
conversation. Yeah, I like that.
You said believing. You know, I think the believing
comes from the research and the scrutiny and the verification.
You can do yourself, right? And like, I know that and you
know that. But when people hear that you
believe in it, right, like from a field world point of view that
sounds like more ideological right?
Or someone else told you and now you believe it, you know.
So I I think it's interesting you you said the words to leave
like I believe the same, but it has a different meaning.
Now at least you know with regards to to Bitcoin.
So do you feel like you're a different person because of it?
Yeah, I mean it it is help me lean into a real optimism about
the future. I do think that things are going
to get a lot worse economically than before they get better.
But I do believe that once we hit the bottom, we are going to
be able to rebuild for real the the world economy and and of
course some countries, some people are not going to want to
play ball. They're not going to want to go
along. They're going to want to stay in
the the inflationary mindset and their economies will not
recover. But we can absolutely work with
people who want to and and yeah it it has made me a lot more
optimistic and because what I feared was that we were going to
go into perpetual hyperinflationary cycles like
every 10 years a wipeout event. And then you you can just never
build up capital stock in the economy.
Which then you get countries that look like the developing
countries in in Latin America. You know and and and also Africa
and places like that where there's just constantly
inflation raging. And people need to be able to
save before they they have enough confidence and low time
preference and comfort to build the factories, the buildings,
the, the cultural institutions that will have longevity and
that can make life better for everyone, right?
But if, if, if every time you're being stolen from, then all you
care about obviously is just, you know, trying to survive and
feeding your family. And you don't think about the
long term because you can't. Yeah, yeah, it's going from
consuming to building, right? And well, I think what's safe?
Dean says about high time preference.
Not even consciously, right? People are forced to.
Exactly. A high time preference.
So what do you see is kind of like key threats or or
challenges for you know more growth and and adoption?
Yeah, for Bitcoin. Well, we talked about faith.
I think the threat is for people to lose faith and for people to
think that the values, the cypherpunk values are not strong
enough or not important enough to keep defending.
And and you do that by running full notes, by contributing to
the Bitcoin ecosystem, by holding Bitcoin.
You know even if you just own some Bitcoin and you don't do
anything else, you are contributing because you are
basically signaling to the world that the Bitcoin needs to have a
certain value and you you you are contributing to keeping that
fact. And there is going to be a lot
of fear mongering the next in this cycle probably and and and
the next bear market probably even more.
I do feel like we are now going to see governments actively
resisting Bitcoin adoption, trying to slow it down, trying
to boycott, trying to trying to paint Bitcoin adoption as you
know, Bitcoin as a technology, as something that perhaps
creates inflation. Like believe it or not, I
believe they're going to use Bitcoin to to blame the
inflation on and say that oh, you guys are self promoting all
the time and you're sucking the value out of the dollar and the
euro and that's destabilizing everything.
And also they're going to say that Bitcoin is used for
terrorism and all these criminals are using it.
So it's basically the kind of reformation, you know, Bitcoin
is like that push for, you know, breaking the shackles between
the government and the money. That is what Bitcoin is.
And the government is going to say no, we want to keep it that
way. Not all governments, some of
them of course are going to embrace Bitcoin.
But so yeah, it's it's very challenging because it basically
means that you are a heritage. You know if if you embrace
Bitcoin you are going to be seen as somebody who is a non
conformist and this is potentially A volatile element
in society and and so in certain countries you'll be less welcome
like you will be you know life will be a bit more difficult for
you. And of course we're going to do
everything we can to make the experience of a bitcoiner as as
good as possible. Meaning that if you can hold
Bitcoin in a discreet way you can it can always be in in your
possession no matter where you live.
But it there it's a mental challenge you know and and it's
kind of a a moral test as well like how much are you willing to
to put on the line to to invest in this kind of future.
And and I'm absolutely not judging people who who want to
be more careful depending on the countries they live in.
You know absolutely not. But I just think that, you know,
to answer your question, that I think is the biggest challenge
that we are, we are now in a stage where Bitcoin is going to
go from 1 trillion to 1050, a hundred trillion.
And then, you know, 1 trillion is only less than a percent of
the global wealth. But once you start talking about
50 trillion, well then that's 10% of global wealth And a lot
of the global wealth is actually a bubble.
So maybe the real global wealth is only 200 trillion instead of
500, you know, once the bubble shrinks.
So yeah, once we start talking about $50 trillion Bitcoin then
then it you could be talking about 20, 25% of global wealth
all of a sudden is is investing in Bitcoin.
So it's similar you know to what what we saw in the in the
Netherlands and and Flanders with the with the merchant class
who became very, very wealthy because they embraced global
trade and they embraced freedom of religion.
Of course there was. It was a threat to the status
quo and it it's it's a quite, I believe, a quite monumental
shift in in the the the culture of the world.
And the difference of course is that it's less geographically
bounded, right? So if you can adopt Bitcoin no
matter where you live, if you do it discreetly, you could
probably have Bitcoin even while living in North Korea.
So, so that is different compared to previous
technological revolutions. Yeah.
Would you say that? I don't want to.
The word is harsh, but I don't know another word.
But it it feels like a war in a sense.
Like either it it it's a war of power in a sense.
It's a philosophical war in a sense.
You know, the power to the people kind of thing is is that
something you think people who are new to this should, should
understand? It's actually a word I want to
be using. Likely I will be using in my
presentation in Prague coming up the the conference there next
month because it's so interesting.
The World War literally WAR comes from Indo Indo European
Vera, which originally meant chaos and confusion and it's
still you see it in Dutch right to be in the what means I am
confused And so we don't need for bullets to be flying or
bombs to be dropping to be in the war like environment.
I believe we're already there. Definitely in Europe and in
other places there is so much confusion about what is really
happening. And of course the reality is in
many ways we are we have been subject to Ponzi schemes, you
know, Social Security, fractional reserve banking, all
those things. Basically there's a lot of empty
promises and and it it there will come a time when the music
stops, like it's the musical chairs game and a lot of people
are going to realize there's not enough chairs to sit on.
And then that's usually when the real when people get into the
streets and there's more, there's more protests and then
you can have civil war or eventually governments feel like
they have to find an enemy outside of the country.
So they start blaming minorities or outside, outside countries
and then you can have, you know, the classical warfare and to to
an extent it's already happening.
This civil unrest of course because of the inflation, you
know that that is already a way that the Ponzi scheme is
starting to really the pain is being felt that that's the
inflation people are, are, are, they're saying like I'm, I'm
doing the same type of work, I am a nurse, I am a blue collar
worker, I'm a dentist, whatever. And yet I can no longer pay the
bills. Like what's going on, you know,
So, so yeah, I mean, I think war is a good word, definitely a
good word to to explore about what's what's happening.
Yeah, yeah, I am thinking about what you just said about the the
threats. You know I'm, I'm going to look
up a tweet while I'm talking. You know the, the, the gas
lighting that we're going to see is all well that we're already
seeing is off the charts, right? I I saw the Dutch National Bank
April seven they said higher loans are fueling inflation and
today they said again Dutch Dutch National Bank, high
inflation. Oh no, sorry, April seven, they
said higher loans do not fuel inflation.
And today they said. Higher inflation is due to
higher loans, you know, so if, if they don't.
Know, I think Madeline Voss tweeted that, right?
Oh yeah, Also she there there were some Dutch.
People. Yeah, that.
Oh, I see. But yeah, I mean, like,
absolutely, absolutely. They don't understand.
How can you, you know, like or or?
Well, they pretend, you know. Well, So what happens in again
in this situation of war of of people of confusion and and it's
it's it really goes very deep. I think people already sense
basically that something is off and they feel threatened.
They feel like their livelihood is threatened, their future is
threatened. They don't know if they will get
a pension or not, even though it's still too early for them to
really say it out loud. Even regular people I believe
are starting to feel something is very wrong here.
Something is wrong and what you what you get in those kind of
environments is that much more quickly people tend to go in
fight or flight, which means their their prefrontal cortex
gets shut off and their reptile brain is more active.
It's all about trying to get out of the moment, trying to get out
of this situation, this kind of panicky feeling.
And then that means that this simple gaslighting, when you and
I look at these headlines and think it doesn't make any sense
somehow for a person who is close to fight or flight, it's
it's enough. It's OK.
There's a reason the experts said they don't even think about
what it really means or what the reasoning is.
It's enough that they have a little, it's like a popsicle
they had. They're soothed for a little bit
and and so I believe that's what we're seeing is, is that more
and more people are starting to panic and that's why populism is
able to grow because people don't have bandwidth to to go
into an in depth discussion about what's really going on
because they feel so insecure both emotionally and
financially, they're starting to feel more and more insecure.
Yeah, now that's also why I said, you know, spiritual war in
a sense, right? Your mind is obligated with this
daily stuff basically and you don't.
You don't. Well, if you get the little
popsicle taste, you know like there's no, there's not really
space to actually view this from a bit further than you know,
probably your ego that that you know gets talked to basically.
And you know it's of course very off off center or not centered
if you just go along with you know the gas lighting that has
been in front of you. I I.
And and I just want to add, I just want to add before we go to
The next thing is that if there's also a cycle at work
because the people who are panicking are then also they try
to prevent getting triggered again.
And so they start censoring other people.
They start saying like, oh, you can't say that.
And so now we're seeing more and more censorship happening and
and silencing, but that of course creates more anxiety
because then you, you know that you cannot ask certain questions
and you won't even go there, right.
So there is a there is almost like we're we're all being
pushed into a state of delusion like that's we're being
encouraged to go there more and more utopian, delusional.
And of course, you know, it's unsustainable, but I think
that's how it works. Yeah, I lost you for a second.
But I was just I'm I'm done. Yeah, it's the it's kind of like
the don't think for yourself, we'll take care of you or
something, right. Like I just saw a video of these
demonstrations on the colleges in in America and they are like,
we are hungry and we are called you should take care of us.
And it's so paradoxical and you look at that, right.
It's like I'm protesting the government but please take care
of me, right. I'm like what?
What? You know.
But but they are serious, right? So we can kind of laugh about it
maybe. But they are, they really feel
that and they're acting like that, right.
So I think that's an illustration of what what you
just said. Yeah.
It's it's, it's fascinating to see.
I feel a bit, I don't know, like helpless in the sense like I
don't, I don't know what to do about it.
Right. Like you you're viewing it and I
think you you illustrated it in a great way.
But what do you think? Like what?
What should we do? Well, I believe one there, there
is some, there is some good knowledge in the world of
addictions and how to deal with people who are addicted.
And I do believe it's accurate to to talk about people who are
emotionally immature and who are both the students in your
example and the government. They are both acting like
emotional children really and they are both Co dependent on
each other like the the government needs the
helplessness from the people and the people need the government
to to tell them they cannot fix it themselves and and we are
going to take care of you so. So there is that destructive
cycle that's happening, which is similar to if you live in a in a
family with lots of addicts, everybody is is creating more
and more chaos. And what you need to do to
survive and to just become healthy is to to create distance
between yourself and that. And it doesn't mean you have to
necessarily leave the country you live in but it does mean
that you you think carefully about how to expose yourself to
this and and how much you can handle.
And because if you get sucked into for example, lots of
political debates and things like that, I think it's crazy
making and and you're more likely to actually become part
of the problem. Because you just become so
reactive and and you feel more and more helpless than if you
make more distance and have cultivate some compassion and
hang out with people who understand where you're coming
from and who are willing to have just interesting conversations
in a more cool headed way, then it's also better.
You can much better take care of yourself.
And because honestly, like living a kind of a Bitcoin
oriented life is challenging, there's lots of volatility.
Like people always say oh Bitcoin is so volatile.
But really what the volatility is just reflecting is how
emotionally volatile the rest of the world is.
Because if you just buy Bitcoin once and you hold it, you are
not contributing to volatility, right?
It's it's the people who are just, oh, they're jumping on the
gravy train and then they're selling and panicking and then
they're euphoric. They are creating it.
So we and it's a it's another way that we are already
confronted with the madness of the world.
So that's kind of my general thinking about this stuff is
that things are going to get worse economically and
politically and we we have to think of this.
Or it helps at least for me to think about this as these are
people who have a specific type of addiction, like they are
trying to avoid looking at the reality and they're making up a
lot of stories to help them do that.
And it's it's kind of a crazy life to be living that way, but
it's just where we are and it's going to last a while.
Yeah. I I love what you said about the
volatility right. Like it's I've, I was a little
later than you but also eleven years now into Bitcoin right.
Like these. Yeah.
Literally what you said right. Like you do the work you
understand what this is. You understand its importance.
You understand the implications. And I I once saw a tweet of
someone who said, like, if you even remotely think Bitcoin, you
know Bitcoin is an experiment, right?
It's either zero or everything. That's always how I saw it.
And if you and then I saw a tweet once that said if you even
think remotely think Bitcoin is not going to be 0, then you
should get a seat in the stadium, right?
And that's basically when I moved way, way more in.
But now we have the seat in the stadium, right.
And we see the fluctuations as you mentioned and actually
because we did the work and we are there, we are actually
improving also ourselves like what we just talked about,
right, like you, you're getting to know yourself because you're
looking at these other people that go, you know, they, they
follow the price, they go up and down and there's hysteria and
the bubble pops a bit etcetera and you're still sitting there
on your hands, right. And you're learning to follow
yourself. You're learning to trust your
yourself and the feeling that you, I think, created or
manifested in a sense because you did the work right.
So that's I think also in part for me like how it changed me or
improved my life is that I know that I can understand like trust
myself with my diligence or my, you know, energy that I put in
into something. So I like that you said that
because I think that's a good analogy, right?
It's the other people that not understanding what this is,
yeah. Yeah.
And so the the weathering, the volatility is almost like an
emotional gym like you you go to the gym and and there's times
when it's really hard and that's the bear market or that's the
doubt or the the even the FOMO is also challenging.
I find often that the the the euphoria is actually the the
most difficult period for me when when there's everybody's
going crazy and and the the taxi drivers are all talking about
Bitcoin that that's often the most challenging but so yeah but
but I think it's great training like you say to like learn to
know yourself and and grow resilience to to just you know
irrational stuff for the world you know and and and take care
of ourselves. Sorry.
Yeah, not like it's resilience against irrationality.
Yeah, I'd say, yeah. Absolutely.
So if people want to get into into into Bitcoin and study it
right, what is like a very common misconception or
misunderstanding that you still encounter and how do you address
it? Well, the gold bugs are
interesting people who love gold, because a lot of them have
known about Bitcoin for 10 years now.
And and of course there have been gold bugs that have adapted
and are now just they own Bitcoin and gold.
But there are the holdouts who are still very adamant about
that Bitcoin cannot work. And so they are a pretty
interesting source of objections against Bitcoin, because at
least they understand, yes, in order for money to really work,
it needs to be scarce. So, you know, at least there's a
category of objections that are honestly ridiculous that you
could, that at least they don't have any more.
But they still really struggle with Bitcoin in, for example,
that it's not tangible, That's difficult for them, that you you
cannot hold a Bitcoin in your hand, which is part of why it's
so powerful, of course, because it means you can store it in all
kinds of ways that you cannot do with gold.
And also that you can verify it much more accurately and rapidly
than you can do with gold, which people often don't think about.
But if you have a gold coin or a gold bar, you don't know if it's
real. It could be coated, you know it
could be tungsten with with the coating around it.
And then you really need some serious skill to be able to to
verify if if it's real or not. So, so yeah, like I said, like
those guys have some interesting objections.
They often struggle also with the divisibility.
Weirdly, they think that the fact that or not everybody.
But there are a few who think that, oh, you can divide Bitcoin
into a million pieces, one Bitcoin into a million pieces.
That means it's not scarce. Like the pizza lady.
Yeah, exactly. So yeah, I mean, and then of
course there's doom scenarios that they have about, yeah, what
if all the electricity fails on the planet, there's some kind of
Carrington event, a big solar flare and all the electricity
falls out, then what are you going to do?
But the fact is that as long as we have one copy of the
blockchain he's even on could be on the surface of the moon or in
a satellite somewhere, one copy of the blockchain, and we find a
way to store that copy and then later recreate some computers,
then we can actually reboot the network.
And no matter when. And of course, you know, once
we're in the Stone Age, like, I don't know if you'll be able to
do a lot with your gold coins either.
You know, I think that the fact that like their counter
arguments of a solar flare on the scale of probability is very
far. It's probably on the other end
of the spectrum. Then you know our argument and
the probability of what if you want to sell your gold right now
to someone in China when you are in the US at 3:00 AM in the
night, right? That's a more probable scenario,
yeah. What if you lived in Ukraine and
war breaks out and you have a kilo of gold?
Are you going to, are you going to be able to take it with you
across the border? Yeah, I don't know.
No, we do know a bunch of stories of people who had
Bitcoin and and actually used it to get out, so.
Yeah, I like the I don't know if you saw the talk by Jack Mahlers
at Bitcoin Atlantis. I haven't seen it yet, no.
Yeah, for me, that's one of the best explanations I've seen in
in 10 years. But he said you can store, you
know, Bitcoin is stored in your head and gold is stored in your
butt, he said. And then he had like this
article of someone who tried to smuggle gold right in the in the
plane, you know, And I think, you know, it's it's it's a fun,
silly equation, but it's just very true, you know, once you
understand kind of like the metaphysical nature of Bitcoin
and you are like, you know, I I flew to Thailand a few months
ago and they're like if you have more than 10,000 U.S. dollars
equivalent, you know, fill in this form And I thought I have
more but you don't know that, right?
And. Also, it's in the cloud.
That was it. You don't have it physically
with you. It's stored on the blockchain.
You only have the key with you maybe.
Yeah. Well, yes, maybe.
So if you ask me tomorrow and I say no, like, how do you prove
it? You know, like, I I think this
is the entire point for me. That's the magic in a sense,
right? Like you're the only one who
knows if you, if you own it. And like that is real.
That's real sovereignty in a sense.
Well, and I think Jack's, Jack's way of describing it is actually
also it's not as trivial what he's saying because he's
describing duress scenarios. He's he's basically saying if it
really comes down to it and you're really under stress, how
are you going to store gold versus how you're going to store
Bitcoin? And that's always the true test
of technology is will it stand withstand duress.
That's why Bitcoin is so redundant.
There's 75,000 nodes around the world.
So yeah, it's it's it's an interesting way to think about
it. Yeah.
So you mentioned briefly, I think the the article or well
you mentioned reformation, but you wrote a paper called the
Bitcoin Reformation and you argue that you know Bitcoin is a
is a catalyzer for huge change. I think we just touched upon
that, right, like on our views on on money, our views on and
how we use money, what drives, what drives this?
Can you elaborate a little bit on it?
Like, why does Bitcoin catalyze this this huge change in the
world? Because it challenges the
monopoly of the global monetary order.
The analogy that I made was that back in the early 1500s, the
Catholic Church had a monopoly on you could call it access to
heaven, something like that, like a peaceful afterlife.
That was what the Church had a monopoly on a service that it
was providing. And the the Protestants early on
they did not have a a a common set of beliefs.
The only thing that they thought was, well, why do we need the
church to do that? Can we just on on our own find
other ways to to to find salvation and and then that
meant that they just would stop paying the taxes to Italy to and
and of course it's it's complicated too because back
then the Catholic Church was instrumental also I believe at
least via their alliances with Catholic governments to push the
the Islamic threat because there was a lot of a lot of warfare
happening in the Mediterranean and of course you probably know
at some point Spain got occupied this is in the early Middle Ages
Spain got almost entirely occupied by the the Ottoman
Empire. So.
So it's there is an argument to be made why the Catholics felt
like it was so important that they had that power to basically
maintain the peace in Europe. But anyway, like the the Dutch
said like, hey, like we want to do things differently and some
some Germans of course and and French and so similarly now we
are subject to a monopoly of the IMF, the, you know, the the
global financial system basically that is working kind
of similarly to the Catholic Church.
It's a hierarchical system and there's a lot of separate
organizations that are involved in it and that get benefits from
it. And in order to get financial
salvation, you have to work with the banks.
You know that that's that you are tied to this system and that
means your money is in a bank and they can take it away if
they want to. They can inflate it away.
There's so much power that they have over your financial life.
And Bitcoin is saying, hey, can we just do this independently?
Why do we need you guys? And so in that sense it's
heresy. It is, it is breaking that
convention and and that is historic.
You know that that is a once in a 500 year type event in my
opinion. Yeah, yeah.
I really love that analogy, right.
Or that that illustration, the fact that a third party creates
an application that you use in your daily life of which you
think you know improves your life, but the issuer of the
application has the real influence, right?
Or or the real, the real benefits.
Yeah, I I I think that's right. They they there's a lot of they
they they, yeah. They tell you that they're
they're offering you this service.
But they keep skimming. They keep taxing you in in a way
that's invisible. That is the the That's the thing
that's uncomfortable and and wrong in my.
Opinion. Yeah.
And in the book you mentioned millennials, I think as the
primary like adopters that that will drive the Reformation
because they will inherit, you know, more wealth from from
their parents, grandparents, etcetera.
How do you see this progressing now?
I I think you saw the video of the, the graduation speech.
You know, that generation is probably a bit younger.
That's Gen. Z.
They were booing, which it's it's interesting.
It's an interesting conversation.
But like how? How do you see it with regards
to to millennials? Of course, This is why I started
this podcast. But yeah, interesting.
Interesting. Yeah.
I believe millennials.
What's your, I believe I'm, I'm part of the oldest slice of the
millennials. I believe that if you, if you
were 16 years old when 911 happened, you are a millennial.
I. Yeah.
It's between 8081 and 96.
OK, Yeah. Well.
I was 14. I think, yeah, I think we of
course Gen. Z as well, but we have the
privilege of or yeah, really the luck that there is some
prosperity that we saw in our younger life, like hopefully we
were able to build up some savings as well.
We are most likely to inherit from the boomers more, let me
more sooner than the Gen. Z generation.
And then also we grew up. Not everyone, but, but a bunch
of us grew up experiencing things like BitTorrent, for
example, where you download music and videos in a completely
decentralized way. And that's I feel pretty certain
that that's something that helped me a lot in grasping
Bitcoin on a kind of a core level.
It's like, oh, it's like BitTorrent but money.
Whereas older people, they don't understand the idea that a
technology exists and nobody's in charge.
Like that's weird to them or especially digital technology.
So yeah I think we have a lot going for us and to an extent
now it's harder to build up wealth.
Of course if you're active in the Bitcoin economy more and
more there's more and more opportunities to do that.
But of course, yeah there is going to be some some money
that's going to be inherited and and I think that a lot of the
gold bars that people inherit are going to be sold for
Bitcoin. So I I'm, I'm not I haven't
studied it more especially the the the difference with Gen.
Z for example. I'm not, I'm not I don't feel
particularly confident about that but I do feel the
millennials have a little have a just some some extra benefit to
the things that they've experienced compared to Gen.
X for example. Yeah.
I think, like how I look at this, I I, I think I had two
tweets about gold this week. One was I saw a video of a
woman, like emptying a bag of like gold bars.
Right. And then you know, talking about
also what you just said, like you need three machines to
verify if it's real, right? Like, how are you going to move
this? How are you going to sell this
in the middle of the night? I got for these things.
It's just stupid. Like, I could download the song,
you know, during my 1:00 AM Internet surfing period.
Or, you know, when I was 15 and I saw a song, I downloaded it
instantly. I got it right.
And I don't know who hosted it, maybe not even anyone in the
Netherlands, right? And so I think that experience
is interesting. But also the other one, like,
really, I'm going to store value in a shiny Rock, You know, like
the the fact that we were on the border of, you know, the
physical and the digital world and we got introduced to this
digital world, right. But we still used in our youth
stuff from from the physical world, right.
I think it gives us a great perspective on, yeah, I don't
know, like, I just think like shiny rocks, you know, like it
is, it's just it's weird. It feels so antiquated, right.
And. And it's 2024.
It's just, yeah, I don't know. I think it's fascinating, but
confusing at the same time, right.
But for me, like gold, I never even looked at gold, right?
Even when I found Bitcoin and and and and started getting more
into the store value stuff, etcetera.
Like I never looked at gold. Because it's just like, you
know, Cleopatra had gold. Like what?
What are we doing? You know, like that's kind of my
feeling. In some way we should thank the
central bankers because they really promoted the idea that
you can store monetary value on a Ledger.
The only thing we're saying is why does it have to be your
Ledger? Yeah.
This is a better Ledger. Exactly.
Right. So you're moving to another
system that is controlled by by no one.
But yeah, I I pasted the little I want a tweet from you in my in
my in my notion that I used to to to prep.
But this was you tweeted the gold price kilo of gold in
Bitcoin, I think yeah. So you said this is a market
battle of the ages. Once one Bitcoin trades over 10
kilograms of gold bitcoins, market capital has surpassed
that of the world's above ground gold stock.
Right. And one of the things I find
super interesting is, you know, if we replace gold as the most
valuable asset on Earth, you know, when we grew up, we
learned well to have, you know, you, you should have gold and
you should have silver, right. And if you ever buy like real
forks and ice like cut free for yourself, it should be like nice
silver, you know, And this is like the narrative, right?
But we have been above silver, so that narrative was then
already destroyed, right? Then it's gold, Bitcoin, silver.
And once we pass gold, it's the that entire narrative that
hundreds of millions of people grew up with is dead.
You know, I I'm waiting for that day because I think that is
really one of the big inflection points also in, yeah, kind of
substantiating the value of Bitcoin, right?
Like, yes, there is more value and it's all like none of it is
paper by the way, right. Which with gold and silver, you
know is still very unclear, right.
So I think it solidifies lots of the arguments that we now share.
Yeah. And and because I I was pretty
deeply involved in the gold world before I discovered
Bitcoin as, as a way to think about protecting against
inflation. And it really has been kind of
where the conservative impulse has been stored in a way like
the the, the, the investment conservative impulse that most
people who have that they've always had some gold.
And I think you're right, I think that people underestimate
the psychological power that gold still has in this world.
And it's so interesting that the resistance that we're seeing
just priced technically actually in 2021 and 2022 we we were
very, very close to 1K of gold in Bitcoin.
And then we went to it again and then we went down and now we're
again, even though the dollar price has been higher because
gold has gone up as well, we're basically again pushing against
the limit of 1K of gold per Bitcoin.
And I think it's probably not a coincidence there is something
psychological similar to there's been dollar barriers as well
where there is resistance at $1.10 and 100 and 1000 because
people think like, oh, but Bitcoin cannot be worth more
than that. And so once we go above a kilo,
then the next target is 10K, which is literally what you're
saying, that parity with gold. It means Bitcoin is worth as
much as gold once we hit 10K, And I think you're right, if we
go above 10K, it's going to be pretty monumental.
It's it's going to because all the conservative people will
then have to deal with Bitcoin. They can no longer say, oh, it's
the little brother and who cares?
It's like, no, no, no. This is bigger than gold now, in
20 years or however long it's going to take.
Yeah, or you can flip the delusional script on the gold
box, right? You know, because then more
people trust Bitcoin at that point than than gold to store
their. Value right.
Yeah I think I'll always I'll always have some some kind words
for gold bugs no matter if they hate Bitcoin because they they
still really care about scarcity and and generally you know don't
spend more than you have and those kind of things.
So I I, I I don't know I I will always have some sympathy and of
course you know it's it's there is some merit in general to
being a little bit conservative and not just jumping on board of
a new train if it's only 15 years old like they they are
right to say gold's been around for 6000 years Bitcoin is 15
years old you know that's we need time to I don't know I I I
don't judge anyone for for waiting.
No, me neither. I I what I just meant with like,
you know, shiny rocks, like that is for me, like I grew up.
Yeah. Yeah.
On the Internet, right. Yeah.
One side question, when you said like, yes, it's it's just 15
years old, right. I think if you see the
comparison, you know, the the table between Bitcoin and gold,
right. The only thing which is more
negative on the Bitcoin side than gold is like the the age
right. They say you know and then from
age people derive trust them I'm I'm assuming would you say that
something like that having right where we basically see are we
kind of like celebrate that you know the monetary policy of the
protocol is still enforced and adopted right, because we we
dropped the the block rewards. Would you say that that like
repeating event slash transparency would actually
should actually like speed up the time if that makes sense,
right. It's not 15 years like it.
It's something that's added to the quality of Bitcoin,
something that we do not have with gold, right.
Like the the 2% inflation number for gold.
They say it's not a scientific number.
It's not a proven number, right. Nobody can, nobody can really
check it and when there's asteroid mining, you know, then
then that narrative also dies right.
So yeah, I just want to ask your, your thoughts on that,
because for me that is something that adds to Bitcoin that
nothing else has basically. Does that make sense?
No. Yeah.
It makes sense that that it's so elegant, you know, to have one
event every four years to to cut the inflation in half because he
could have done it in a different way that it was more a
smooth curve. But I I find it, yeah, it's
fascinating. It's really elegant and it's
almost so like a global PR event.
It advertises that, hey, like Bitcoin is just cutting.
That's what I mean. Once more, we just we keep
trucking. It's it's it's like the solar
eclipse, like it's predicted. And then it happens.
It's like, Oh my God, this is real.
It's it's so powerful. In that sense, Yeah, I you're
right. Gold doesn't have that.
And actually when gold becomes more popular, the inflation goes
up because the price goes up, so it's more profitable to mine.
And you saw that in the 1850s there was a valuation boom and
also there was a mining boom in the 1930s because the gold price
went up a lot. So yeah, it's kind of the
opposite with Bitcoin, where it's so inert, it doesn't care
about the price at all. So it's just going to keep doing
what it does. Very powerful.
Yeah, I agree It it's it sets it apart.
Yeah. So from from like a
philosophical standpoint, how how do you look at like the
incentives in Bitcoin game theory you touched upon before
and like how that influences our our behavior?
Oh, you mean, as with regards to, for example, time
preference? Yeah, exactly.
Like what? What?
How? How do you see like those
elements influence our our life? I think the Austrians just have
fantastic methodology there because people tend to over
complicate things usually when they think about oh economic
laws and and how this influences that and it's all very abstract
and maybe you need formulas and stuff.
But what the Austrians say is that human action has certain
laws and and incentives that work for the individual, create
effects on a global scale just because.
And, and so you can basically imagine situations that are
very, very small and easy to to put in your mind, like a
Robinson Cruz who's stranded on an island or just a family
living together in a house. And then you change one variable
and you, you look what happens. So it's actually really accurate
to say your story or my story. You know, how did Bitcoin change
my life? Well, it allowed me to not to to
to appreciate the value of saving my money a lot more than
when I was living in a Fiat world where my savings were
expressed in euros and they kept lowering in value over time.
Because in Bitcoin, every every year on average it goes up
however much like 115% on average or something.
Yeah. So either you are very much
incentivized to wait, you just wait and wait and you cultivate
patients and and and and and there's so many implications
from that. A low time preference society is
a society is a society that builds cathedrals that are built
over 203 hundred years to low time preference Society is a
society that produces artists like Beethoven and Bach and and
and and and and. And there is a certain spiritual
element as well I believe where where society tends to
appreciate things that are universal and eternal in in a in
a more profound way than a society that is always trying to
survive. Because tomorrow who knows, they
might steal our all our money again.
They might do another stimulus that you saw if you talk to
business owners about COVID, it was so disruptive, you know,
even the stimulus event was disruptive because then you are
chasing the subsidies and you forget about your customers and
it it just it's so confusing and and that's what Mises also says,
is that interventionism makes economic calculations so
difficult, almost impossible. And the opposite is just a free
market with hard money that is actually when the economic
machine can does it does its best work and creates prosperity
for for everybody. So yeah, I mean that's something
to, you know, you can write books and books about it, but
the the core element is, is the time preference, change like it.
It helps you breathe and and think long term.
Yeah, yeah, you said eternal. I like that.
You know, like the the. Then I think like Fiat money is
ephemeral, right? It's fading and everything you
do with it is fleeting and all the the the the time you spend
on it is fleeting. It's not stored, right.
Like I think, I think that's a. Well one thing for example that
I notice all the time now if I walk around as I see the
difference between like I went to a little sculpture park and
and so there were a few sculptures that were made out of
stone and and others that were made out of like flimsy metal or
not even that like some kind of other material.
And you could already see after it was 10 years old this park
and you could already see a a bunch of the sculptures are
starting to deteriorate. Just that apparently those
artists, I don't know if they didn't care or they didn't have
the money to actually, you know, create art that would last, you
know, and. And yeah, I think you see it in,
I'm sure, in Europe as well with the difference between art that
was created in the 1800s that is still beautiful today, and then
art that was put there 20 years ago that's already falling
apart. Yeah.
Sometimes I go to Belgium known to you, obviously, and then when
I drive around sometimes I think when was this nice, you know,
when this was made. But I, I in Belgium, I think,
like, I cannot really even see, like when something was made
right. But sometimes I think, like,
when was this nice, right? Is there no one who who drives
here and thinks like maybe maybe we should upgrade this, right.
Or, you know, demolish it and put in something new or make it
better or whatever, right. Like it's just it's very out
there, I would say, right. And then of course there's
there's, there's places also in Belgium, you know, where there
are actual things from 23400 years ago, I mean some something
like Bruges is amazing, right? But yeah, that's it's so
interesting that it's kind of like quality over quantity or
something. Also, yeah, I mean it's also,
it's just who who gets to be powerful in a Fiat world.
It's people that have short time preference and who who know how
to play the political game and how to how to be close to where
the money comes out where it's being produced and and that's
you know means you have to be around psychopaths and it means
you have to be in a very toxic environment.
So. So people that have low time
preference even in a Fiat world, they will be more private, more
entrepreneurial away from politics and so yeah that it's
that's why the taxes like Milay says like they just there's no
limit to how much taxes socialists will will want it.
It's infinite. So that's why the tax pressure
in Belgium I believe it's 52% now.
It's like every dollar that's being produced is is more than
half of it is taxed just yeah. And so that's why there's no
money to maintain all the beautiful buildings and and
build new stuff. It's it's a, it's a tragedy.
People, people die from this stuff.
You know it because it also goes into healthcare and all kinds of
things. It's it's, well, that's one of
the things that economics taught me is is to to see the
alternative world in your mind's eye, to look at like you're
saying you're you know, driving through Belgium.
It's like what if there was no Fiat money 100 years ago and
they stayed on a gold standard or hard money somehow?
How would this country look like?
And it's it's would be night and day.
You you cannot even imagine the the wealth and the beauty I
believe. Yeah, it's it's funny when
people say like, you know, if if the whole purpose of Bitcoin is
to hold it, nothing will ever happen, you know?
And my answer to that is always no.
You get to live your life also together with other people.
It's not the lonely thing, but you get to live your life your
you get the freedom back that is now also spiritually taken from
you, right? Like, how can you come up with a
new cathedral? If you're worried about getting
dinner tonight? You know, like that.
Even if you're a stone Mason, you know you don't have time for
that. Literally, yeah.
And. And we like to kind of, you
know, poo poo or look down on on centuries ago how people lived
and everybody was dirt poor. And but in some ways, especially
up to the 1500s, there was more stability for people.
If you think about the last 100 years, we had two world wars.
We had several drastic devaluations that happened.
But like just look at the paintings, you know, like look
at Bruegel and and and the Rembrandt and and France halls
and all those people like that. That was in many ways a
beautiful life that people had. It doesn't mean that it wasn't.
It wasn't maybe as long as ours, but I don't think it's, you
know, I think it might be a little arrogant to just assume
we have it better now in in a in a kind of a social sense.
Yeah, yeah, I agree. So I want to ask you two more
things before before we wrap up about the global adoption and
game theory. Do you have any thoughts on like
countries or regions that you think would have the greatest
potential to to adopt Bitcoin or contribute to to its
development? Well, if you follow my tweets,
you can probably already guess. I'm going to at least mention
the Texas and Argentina I think I mean honestly I am more
gradually more impressed by by El Salvador as well.
Although I still don't know if I understand the culture very
well. I I just don't know how how
sustainable these changes are and and how for example rule of
law I think is very important and very, very difficult to to
change once a certain system of of courts and and and and juries
and lawyers and once that's put in place it's very resistant to
change and so yeah so so I'm I'm I'm very bullish on on Latin
America in general. I I although the Americas have
the advantage that it's a it's a continent of immigrants and
Europe does not have that advantage.
We we do have immigrants, but they were not bootstrapped.
A lot of them have been attracted by giving subsidies
and and welfare checks and those kind of things.
And that's a different type of person that you attract versus
just saying you can come here and make something but we're not
going to give you any money. And that's what I think the
Americas is. So.
So I think Asia has the challenge of this consensus
culture like they they like to agree on a lot of things and and
that can create to lead to a lot of volatility in times of
change. You know, if if there's a regime
change needed or there's a big technological revolution that
changes a lot of variables, then I think you have the risk of
warfare and those kind of things and and and populism.
So yeah, I'm very, very bullish on the Americas.
Of course, Canada is, is worrisome.
I think the US is also tricky. You know, there's a lot of, a
lot of collectivism there too. I think the dollar is there's if
you think about the federal government for example, 3
million people are directly employed by the federal
government, 15,000,000 contractors apparently or 12
million I'm not sure. So that's that's a lot of people
whose paychecks are dependent on the value of the US dollar and
people who could potentially get very angry if if there is a
change in in the the monetary system.
So, yeah, that remains to be seen.
But so and and in Europe, I think on the edges it'll be
interesting. You know there's always little
countries. You know of course it could be a
Switzerland or a Monaco or a who knows maybe a Portugal.
Like AI think that these figures that we're now seeing like a
Malay and Bukele, that is just the beginning.
Like we are going to see more and more new political figures
that embody the Bitcoin spirit in some way.
And of course in some countries it'll be just like with the
Reformation, you know some some people took the word Protestant
and they made something crazy out of it.
Like, you know I honestly maybe I'm people will be offended by
this, but I think in in Germany for example, the Protestantism
was pretty extreme there. So they kind of instead of
saying oh we we we embrace freedom of religion.
They say no, no, no, we have a new system and a new monopoly
and this is how it is. So I definitely don't want to
say a blank check for all the future presidents who are pro
Bitcoin, like some of them are going to be crazy, but at least
I there is going to be a Bitcoin vote.
I believe that that is going to shake things up.
Yeah, well, and I think also 22 episodes back, If you didn't see
it, check it out. I have Maya Parbu.
She's going to be a presidential candidate in Suriname in May
2025. Again, like Africa as well.
You know, Africa could make an enormous leap because they have
been financially enslaved for such a long time.
Yeah, a Serena is South America. Oh wait, why am I?
Sorry, I said Suriname above Brazil.
See. Now wait, why am I so confused?
I I that's that's very embarrassing because I on the
study. Oh, you're right next to Guiana.
Yeah, yeah. Oh, I see.
But we talked, yeah, I I talked about it with her and I said,
you know, I think, I think you have more than a nation behind
you, right. I think that is so interesting
that that this you know, you you you're probably known with the
biology network state idea, right?
You know Bitcoin is a network state in that sense.
So anything that she would share that is interesting, like it's
going to be super amplified versus no, I don't know the
random opponent that she will have, you know, that is totally
not into Bitcoin. So I think that's gonna be just
super interesting. Super.
Similar to the the history of the United States, where the the
places that were friendly to the crazy Dutchies who just wanted
to trade, you know, and who maybe not because there were
some very religious colonies in the early days, very, you know,
very specific religious colonies and those became less prosperous
than for example, New Amsterdam where it was just about trade
and freedom. And so I think similarly in
Latin America just remains to be seen like wherever freedom is
welcome, that's where the money and the the economic
opportunities is going to flow towards.
Yeah. And I mean, I do think there's
an element too with energy where where countries that have a lot
of untapped stranded energy, they will of course love to get
involved with mining. Yeah, I agree.
I think Suriname takes a lot of boxes actually.
Also with this energy part, but also I learned I thought there
were more people, but it's only 600,000 people, but the country
is huge, right? So it's not that many people to
convince. Actually, yeah, it's.
Like Iceland is 300,000. Yeah, exactly.
Yeah. So yeah, you can, you can.
Like small countries can be surprisingly fast in changing
things and and making things happen.
By the way, I noticed that I was confusing it with Senegal.
That's why I was so. Oh yeah, so I think yeah, you
you argued a lot. Also currently you know, Bitcoin
is very undervalued considering how you see it as like a long
term store value. Where do you see Bitcoin going
in the next 5-10 years in terms of price, if you want to say
price, but like adoption, overall impact?
Yeah, I think that this we are now in finally in the 1995
moment compared to if you compare Bitcoin to the Internet
adoption, 1995 Bitcoin Internet adoption was around 9% in the US
And I think that's about where Bitcoin is probably at least in
in developing countries, but developed countries, but maybe
even globally that that people are really starting to have some
exposure to Bitcoin. And so that means I think from
here it will accelerate. There'll be more and more on
ramps like the ETF is like that is like the Windows 1995
operating system. It just, you know, just you just
push a button and you go online. So I think this cycle is huge
and even within this cycle, I think we could go above
$200,000, we could go as high as 600,000.
So that means for the next 2-3 years basically.
And then after I do think like I said, I think governments feel
very threatened and so there's going to be backlash.
So things are going to get interesting.
Maybe we'll we'll have countries that try to make central banks
of Bitcoin, they'll like take an exchange and nationalize it or
something like that. So that's why I always caution
people to to try and store your own Bitcoin and not not just go
ahead with these ETFs and stuff because that's the low hanging
fruit. Like that's very easy to, that's
very easy to dominate. But yeah, very, I'm very, very
bullish for the Bitcoin price. This is just the early, early
days of a new bull market, I think.
Yeah, I think what what you mentioned before, you know like
we are in a one in 500 year paradigm shift and it's
something I share a lot with people that the fact that we are
living in that moment is so mind blowing actually that you just
dismiss it right. But I think we should keep
repeating that we are actually there and that you can
participate. Although the finance guys have
figured it out. You know, you can still, you can
still participate. And yeah, it's just it's going
to be fascinating to see where it goes.
And I think, you know, we have our seats in the stadium.
This is kind of how I see it, right?
Like we have the seats in the stadium and we're watching.
And for me, it kind of became like entertaining because I know
what I know, right? And and there are some unknown
unknowns, right. You never know what the
government's could do, you know, or the examples that you give.
But but I know I know that I'm sitting and I'm sitting there
solidly you know and it's just it's it's actually I'm totally
captivated by it right. Like this is what I think about
every every day and it's entertaining like I want to see
this right and and like all the memes of you know the most
entertaining outcome is the most likely like I believe that you
know like we're we're going to see that and and even when we
have a draw down after this tool run like there's it's going to
be a bigger group of people that understand what that is and it's
it's you know it's it's growing. Yeah, it's just better
technology. That's why it's going to get
adopted. About the future.
It's just better, yeah. Exactly.
Yeah. Like do you want to stick with
horses or you know swords instead of gunpowder like what
are you talking about? And also that I think is a good
way to put that, you know, one in 500 year paradigm thing in
perspective. Like the I think the gunpowder
example is great because you know, everyone understands that,
right. OK, so you have swords, I adopt
gunpowder. What do you think is going to
happen, you know and and like, yeah, well, I hope that triggers
enough people. I want to be mindful of your
time, but I want to ask you my last question that I ask
everyone and that's what's a core belief that you will never
let go. Well well it's.
I mean on the verge of the first thing that came to mind is just
believing that the truth is real.
Like the truth is out there and we we can.
It's like The X-Files. The truth is out there.
But know that we, we can actually identify truth as human
beings and and if we we work at it, we can actually surprisingly
learn a lot of things about the world and about ourselves.
And and that is to me really the catalyst of so much optimism and
hope. Because it also means if the
truth is real, then it's something universal and then we
can all connect to that and then connect to each other via that
means. So we don't have to be isolated
and living in our own delusions. We can actually, yeah, just all
be connected and and and and and.
And collaborate and and and make this into a wonderful existence
that that was the first thing that came to mind.
Off that, I think that's a perfect, perfect ending.
Wait, before you close, can I just say I I think you're you're
a really great host. I think you asked great
questions and it's very obvious that you you are very well
versed in in the Bitcoin you know universe and and so I think
you do your listeners a great service.
I'm I'm definitely going to check out some of your content.
Thanks so much. Like that's I I don't think you
know what that means for me, but I think I really, really
appreciate that. And yeah, man, I want to thank
you for your time and maybe we can do this again in the future.
And yeah, let's stay in touch. I'll make sure to link to your
profiles and stuff so people can follow you.
And Kevin, thanks again. My pleasure.
I hope you enjoyed this episode. If you did, it would be amazing
if you could rate, review and subscribe on the podcast
platform of your choice. It will help us educate more
millennials on the importance of Bitcoin.
You can follow and connect with me on Twitter.
I'm Brom K That's at BR AM K and if you are or know someone who
has an interesting perspective on Bitcoin that's worth sharing,
hit me up. I read and reply to every single
message. I appreciate your support and
hope you'll be here for the next episode.
Thanks for listening. Bye.