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All right. 
Hey there. 

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This is from Konstantin. 
You're listening to Bitcoin for 

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Millennials. 
In this episode, I'm joined by 

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two de Maester Tour is a 
prominent Bitcoin investor, 

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economist, and early adopter 
who's been involved with Bitcoin

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since 2011. 
He's the founder of the Bitcoin 

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investment fund Adamant Capital 
and has been a longtime 

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proponent of Bitcoin as a sound 
and audible form of money. 

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Tour has been one of my most 
influential researchers and 

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educators in understanding 
Bitcoin, So I'm super grateful 

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and excited to talk with him 
today. 

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Welcome. 
And. 

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Thanks for having me. 
Thanks, Brent. 

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Yeah. 
Thanks so much for coming on. 

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Yeah. 
Like I mentioned, like, First 

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off, I really want to say like 
you're one of the people whose 

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work has been like super 
influential in, in my 

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understanding of of Bitcoin and 
especially like the economic 

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implications, the philosophy 
part, Austrian economics, like 

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all of that is not my 
background. 

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And yeah, you're one of the 
people that I learned a lot 

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from. 
So I want to thank you for that 

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because like, I know how nice it
is to to hear that, but like 

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you, when you do stuff on the 
Internet, like you don't know 

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how far it travels, right? 
So I think. 

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You you, it's absolutely right. 
You have no idea and and of 

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course yeah, it's it's it's so 
cool to hear it and and at the 

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same time it feels right because
there's been people that I've 

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learned so much from and this is
just a way to pay it forward. 

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Yeah, exactly. 
I think you would agree that 

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once you understand Bitcoin and 
you talk about it, it it feels 

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like an altruistic motivation 
compared to what the critics 

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might say, that we are pumping 
our bags. 

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Pumping our bags. 
Yeah, I mean, in some way, I 

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feel like often times it's also 
just a way to deal with their 

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own insecurities about this. 
Like you just have to study it 

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because it's so different and 
it's and so in order to feel 

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comfortable having a lot of your
future physic like your literal 

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personal future in invested in 
it it it requires a lot of study

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and then it just helps to to 
talk and and share thoughts and 

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and discuss. 
Yeah, yeah, definitely. 

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So before we really jump in, I I
heard before like you discovered

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Bitcoin while you were 
travelling in Argentina. 

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What was it that you saw and 
what drew you in? 

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Yeah, I mean, it helped of 
course that I was already afraid

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of what's happening in Europe 
and we had the first wave of 

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bailouts in 2008 nine and the 
banks were just teetering 

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really. 
Like Belgium has very big banks 

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and it's a small country. 
So I was already scared and 

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trying to find answers. 
And so that background really 

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helped to then, you know, visit 
my friends and see that they're 

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mining Bitcoin and learning 
about it and seeing also how 

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easy it was for them to move 
money in and out of the country.

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Even though it was on financial 
lockdown like Cristina Kirchner 

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was very harsh on capital 
controls and things like that. 

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So it really was a almost a 
perfect environment to learn 

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about it. 
And my friends there were very 

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educated about it, so it really 
helped to set the tone and and 

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give me motivation to dive in 
deeper. 

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Yeah. 
And so it took a little time, 

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but eventually, I think just a 
few months, you recommended it 

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to people who followed your 
newsletter, right? 

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I think Bitcoin was like $5 I. 
Think I took about. 

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What was the most? 
Six months or something. 

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I think I first learned about it
like in in in spring 2011 and 

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then I I the newsletter only 
launched. 

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I believe the 1st edition was 
like was maybe August or 

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September of that year and and I
was very nervous because I had 

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never I'd never owned a stock 
before in my life. 

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And then here I was going to 
recommend people to buy stocks 

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and pretend that I knew what I 
was talking about. 

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So it was. 
There was also some hesitation 

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to come out and go full blast 
talk about Bitcoin to this, you 

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know, completely new audience. 
But also for myself, I needed 

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some time to to digest it more 
and talk to more people. 

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So I think I first wrote about 
it later in 2011. 

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Yeah. 
So what was the biggest thing 

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like? 
Like it looks like you got it 

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right pretty, pretty quick. 
You know, I think a lot of 

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people talk about that it takes 
some time to learn certain 

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things or unlearn certain 
things. 

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So I was wondering if there were
like any specific things that 

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you ran into or was it pretty 
clear cut? 

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No, the thing that worried me 
was counterfeiting was can't 

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people just make more of it? 
It's digital. 

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Like how? 
How come you can't just make 

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more of it? 
And so then that's why it was so

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helpful to talk to a few 
engineers early on to really get

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an education on how Bitcoin 
works specifically. 

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But even then, Even so, I was 
still hedging for quite a while.

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I was talking about 
cryptocurrencies and I said that

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Bitcoin is the most prominent 
one for the moment. 

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And and, you know, maybe some 
others would come out, but. 

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But yeah, that counterfeiting 
thing was big. 

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And then if I had these, of 
course we all have the same 

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doubts come up over time like Oh
well can't they hard fork it? 

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What about the miners? 
Can't they attack it like you? 

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You know you just go through the
worries and but of course 

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Bitcoin talk back then the 
forums, that was the most 

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important online venue to 
discuss Bitcoin, bitcointalk.org

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because it was so non 
commercial, it was practically 

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all engineers who were talking. 
So the level of conversation was

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very high and the level of 
people with ulterior motives and

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scammers was very low. 
So in in some way, it was a 

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special environment to do 
research in and and and the and 

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from the economic sense, there 
was not a lot of understanding 

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about where this could go. 
And so you know, like a lot of 

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engineers who are focused on 
security tend to have this 

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pessimistic mindset and that 
makes them so good, they're 

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constantly paranoid about what 
could go wrong. 

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And so I had several developers,
Bitcoin developers stressed to 

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me, like, hey, this is a beta 
product. 

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Bitcoin isn't beta you, you, you
can't just recommend. 

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I mean they didn't give me 
advice on what to do, but you 

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could feel their hesitation 
about like, oh, you're going to 

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talk about this like an 
investment. 

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Like it's it's it's we're just 
testing here, you know? 

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So. 
So the challenge was more on the

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economic side. 
Yeah. 

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And so from from those early 
days till now, how do you think 

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what has been the biggest shift 
in your perspective over 11 

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years like on on Bitcoin? 
It just gradually, gradually 

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learning and and believing more 
and more that Bitcoin is is a 

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lever that can lift the world. 
Like that can really change 

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everything. 
It just there's so many 

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implications. 
And of course then you also 

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start to think about the 
implications of the introduction

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of Fiat money and how that has 
changed everything. 

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It really is quite incredible. 
So the the the the realization 

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that there is a cultural shift 
going on here and that has been 

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it just it's it's it, it there's
so many things that are affected

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by it that you just can't wrap 
your head around it in in six 

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months or in a year, I don't 
think. 

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Not that I'm not that I feel 
like I've I've, I see it, right?

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I mean maybe there's blind spots
that I have or survivors bias 

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because Bitcoin has been so good
to me. 

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Maybe I'm overlooking some 
serious issues with it. 

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Hey there. 
I want to ask you for a quick 

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favor. 
I noticed something interesting.

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75% of my viewers aren't 
subscribed yet. 

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Subscribing helps me grow this 
channel, ensuring more great 

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content each week. 
So if you're enjoying our 

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millennials, please consider 

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hitting the subscribe button on 
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I'm super grateful for everyone 

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who already joined and shared 
their thoughts. 

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Your feedback really keeps me 
going and I want to ask you to 

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continue doing that. 
I tried to respond to all the 

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comments and also the emails 
that I get and DMS on Twitter, 

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etcetera. 
So don't stop doing that. 

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I'll keep going. 
Now let's get back to the 

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conversation. 
Yeah, I like that. 

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You said believing. 
You know, I think the believing 

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comes from the research and the 
scrutiny and the verification. 

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You can do yourself, right? 
And like, I know that and you 

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know that. 
But when people hear that you 

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believe in it, right, like from 
a field world point of view that

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sounds like more ideological 
right? 

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Or someone else told you and now
you believe it, you know. 

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So I I think it's interesting 
you you said the words to leave 

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like I believe the same, but it 
has a different meaning. 

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Now at least you know with 
regards to to Bitcoin. 

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So do you feel like you're a 
different person because of it? 

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Yeah, I mean it it is help me 
lean into a real optimism about 

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the future. 
I do think that things are going

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to get a lot worse economically 
than before they get better. 

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But I do believe that once we 
hit the bottom, we are going to 

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be able to rebuild for real the 
the world economy and and of 

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course some countries, some 
people are not going to want to 

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play ball. 
They're not going to want to go 

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along. 
They're going to want to stay in

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the the inflationary mindset and
their economies will not 

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recover. 
But we can absolutely work with 

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people who want to and and yeah 
it it has made me a lot more 

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optimistic and because what I 
feared was that we were going to

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go into perpetual 
hyperinflationary cycles like 

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every 10 years a wipeout event. 
And then you you can just never 

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build up capital stock in the 
economy. 

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Which then you get countries 
that look like the developing 

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countries in in Latin America. 
You know and and and also Africa

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and places like that where 
there's just constantly 

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inflation raging. 
And people need to be able to 

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save before they they have 
enough confidence and low time 

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preference and comfort to build 
the factories, the buildings, 

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the, the cultural institutions 
that will have longevity and 

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that can make life better for 
everyone, right? 

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But if, if, if every time you're
being stolen from, then all you 

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care about obviously is just, 
you know, trying to survive and 

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feeding your family. 
And you don't think about the 

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long term because you can't. 
Yeah, yeah, it's going from 

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consuming to building, right? 
And well, I think what's safe? 

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Dean says about high time 
preference. 

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Not even consciously, right? 
People are forced to. 

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Exactly. 
A high time preference. 

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So what do you see is kind of 
like key threats or or 

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challenges for you know more 
growth and and adoption? 

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Yeah, for Bitcoin. 
Well, we talked about faith. 

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I think the threat is for people
to lose faith and for people to 

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think that the values, the 
cypherpunk values are not strong

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enough or not important enough 
to keep defending. 

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And and you do that by running 
full notes, by contributing to 

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the Bitcoin ecosystem, by 
holding Bitcoin. 

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You know even if you just own 
some Bitcoin and you don't do 

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anything else, you are 
contributing because you are 

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basically signaling to the world
that the Bitcoin needs to have a

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certain value and you you you 
are contributing to keeping that

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fact. 
And there is going to be a lot 

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of fear mongering the next in 
this cycle probably and and and 

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the next bear market probably 
even more. 

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I do feel like we are now going 
to see governments actively 

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resisting Bitcoin adoption, 
trying to slow it down, trying 

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to boycott, trying to trying to 
paint Bitcoin adoption as you 

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know, Bitcoin as a technology, 
as something that perhaps 

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creates inflation. 
Like believe it or not, I 

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believe they're going to use 
Bitcoin to to blame the 

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inflation on and say that oh, 
you guys are self promoting all 

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the time and you're sucking the 
value out of the dollar and the 

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euro and that's destabilizing 
everything. 

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And also they're going to say 
that Bitcoin is used for 

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terrorism and all these 
criminals are using it. 

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So it's basically the kind of 
reformation, you know, Bitcoin 

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is like that push for, you know,
breaking the shackles between 

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the government and the money. 
That is what Bitcoin is. 

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And the government is going to 
say no, we want to keep it that 

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way. 
Not all governments, some of 

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them of course are going to 
embrace Bitcoin. 

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But so yeah, it's it's very 
challenging because it basically

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00:13:50,680 --> 00:13:53,600
means that you are a heritage. 
You know if if you embrace 

229
00:13:53,600 --> 00:13:58,760
Bitcoin you are going to be seen
as somebody who is a non 

230
00:13:58,760 --> 00:14:02,520
conformist and this is 
potentially A volatile element 

231
00:14:02,520 --> 00:14:06,680
in society and and so in certain
countries you'll be less welcome

232
00:14:06,720 --> 00:14:12,200
like you will be you know life 
will be a bit more difficult for

233
00:14:12,200 --> 00:14:15,000
you. 
And of course we're going to do 

234
00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:18,800
everything we can to make the 
experience of a bitcoiner as as 

235
00:14:18,800 --> 00:14:21,040
good as possible. 
Meaning that if you can hold 

236
00:14:21,040 --> 00:14:26,600
Bitcoin in a discreet way you 
can it can always be in in your 

237
00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:28,720
possession no matter where you 
live. 

238
00:14:30,400 --> 00:14:32,800
But it there it's a mental 
challenge you know and and it's 

239
00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:36,880
kind of a a moral test as well 
like how much are you willing to

240
00:14:38,040 --> 00:14:41,680
to put on the line to to invest 
in this kind of future. 

241
00:14:41,680 --> 00:14:45,280
And and I'm absolutely not 
judging people who who want to 

242
00:14:45,280 --> 00:14:48,360
be more careful depending on the
countries they live in. 

243
00:14:50,440 --> 00:14:53,040
You know absolutely not. 
But I just think that, you know,

244
00:14:53,040 --> 00:14:55,880
to answer your question, that I 
think is the biggest challenge 

245
00:14:55,880 --> 00:14:59,080
that we are, we are now in a 
stage where Bitcoin is going to 

246
00:14:59,080 --> 00:15:04,360
go from 1 trillion to 1050, a 
hundred trillion. 

247
00:15:04,360 --> 00:15:08,960
And then, you know, 1 trillion 
is only less than a percent of 

248
00:15:08,960 --> 00:15:11,240
the global wealth. 
But once you start talking about

249
00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:15,040
50 trillion, well then that's 
10% of global wealth And a lot 

250
00:15:15,040 --> 00:15:16,840
of the global wealth is actually
a bubble. 

251
00:15:16,840 --> 00:15:21,120
So maybe the real global wealth 
is only 200 trillion instead of 

252
00:15:21,120 --> 00:15:24,120
500, you know, once the bubble 
shrinks. 

253
00:15:24,560 --> 00:15:27,920
So yeah, once we start talking 
about $50 trillion Bitcoin then 

254
00:15:28,680 --> 00:15:33,760
then it you could be talking 
about 20, 25% of global wealth 

255
00:15:33,760 --> 00:15:36,200
all of a sudden is is investing 
in Bitcoin. 

256
00:15:37,320 --> 00:15:41,160
So it's similar you know to what
what we saw in the in the 

257
00:15:41,160 --> 00:15:45,640
Netherlands and and Flanders 
with the with the merchant class

258
00:15:45,640 --> 00:15:48,600
who became very, very wealthy 
because they embraced global 

259
00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:51,400
trade and they embraced freedom 
of religion. 

260
00:15:52,760 --> 00:15:55,440
Of course there was. 
It was a threat to the status 

261
00:15:55,440 --> 00:16:01,680
quo and it it's it's a quite, I 
believe, a quite monumental 

262
00:16:02,080 --> 00:16:06,760
shift in in the the the culture 
of the world. 

263
00:16:07,040 --> 00:16:09,880
And the difference of course is 
that it's less geographically 

264
00:16:11,680 --> 00:16:15,000
bounded, right? 
So if you can adopt Bitcoin no 

265
00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:17,640
matter where you live, if you do
it discreetly, you could 

266
00:16:17,640 --> 00:16:20,480
probably have Bitcoin even while
living in North Korea. 

267
00:16:21,040 --> 00:16:24,240
So, so that is different 
compared to previous 

268
00:16:24,240 --> 00:16:26,480
technological revolutions. 
Yeah. 

269
00:16:27,120 --> 00:16:32,160
Would you say that? 
I don't want to. 

270
00:16:32,160 --> 00:16:34,920
The word is harsh, but I don't 
know another word. 

271
00:16:34,920 --> 00:16:38,480
But it it feels like a war in a 
sense. 

272
00:16:38,800 --> 00:16:44,000
Like either it it it's a war of 
power in a sense. 

273
00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:46,400
It's a philosophical war in a 
sense. 

274
00:16:46,920 --> 00:16:50,720
You know, the power to the 
people kind of thing is is that 

275
00:16:50,720 --> 00:16:57,120
something you think people who 
are new to this should, should 

276
00:16:57,240 --> 00:17:00,920
understand? 
It's actually a word I want to 

277
00:17:00,920 --> 00:17:03,240
be using. 
Likely I will be using in my 

278
00:17:03,240 --> 00:17:06,839
presentation in Prague coming up
the the conference there next 

279
00:17:06,839 --> 00:17:09,800
month because it's so 
interesting. 

280
00:17:09,800 --> 00:17:15,040
The World War literally WAR 
comes from Indo Indo European 

281
00:17:15,079 --> 00:17:21,480
Vera, which originally meant 
chaos and confusion and it's 

282
00:17:21,480 --> 00:17:25,079
still you see it in Dutch right 
to be in the what means I am 

283
00:17:25,079 --> 00:17:32,040
confused And so we don't need 
for bullets to be flying or 

284
00:17:32,040 --> 00:17:36,200
bombs to be dropping to be in 
the war like environment. 

285
00:17:37,360 --> 00:17:40,240
I believe we're already there. 
Definitely in Europe and in 

286
00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:44,720
other places there is so much 
confusion about what is really 

287
00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:50,520
happening. 
And of course the reality is in 

288
00:17:50,520 --> 00:17:55,120
many ways we are we have been 
subject to Ponzi schemes, you 

289
00:17:55,120 --> 00:17:59,560
know, Social Security, 
fractional reserve banking, all 

290
00:17:59,560 --> 00:18:03,080
those things. 
Basically there's a lot of empty

291
00:18:03,080 --> 00:18:08,120
promises and and it it there 
will come a time when the music 

292
00:18:08,120 --> 00:18:11,280
stops, like it's the musical 
chairs game and a lot of people 

293
00:18:11,280 --> 00:18:13,720
are going to realize there's not
enough chairs to sit on. 

294
00:18:15,240 --> 00:18:19,080
And then that's usually when the
real when people get into the 

295
00:18:19,080 --> 00:18:23,840
streets and there's more, 
there's more protests and then 

296
00:18:23,840 --> 00:18:27,920
you can have civil war or 
eventually governments feel like

297
00:18:27,920 --> 00:18:30,480
they have to find an enemy 
outside of the country. 

298
00:18:30,480 --> 00:18:35,280
So they start blaming minorities
or outside, outside countries 

299
00:18:35,280 --> 00:18:39,760
and then you can have, you know,
the classical warfare and to to 

300
00:18:39,760 --> 00:18:41,040
an extent it's already 
happening. 

301
00:18:41,040 --> 00:18:44,520
This civil unrest of course 
because of the inflation, you 

302
00:18:44,520 --> 00:18:47,560
know that that is already a way 
that the Ponzi scheme is 

303
00:18:47,560 --> 00:18:51,360
starting to really the pain is 
being felt that that's the 

304
00:18:51,360 --> 00:18:54,680
inflation people are, are, are, 
they're saying like I'm, I'm 

305
00:18:54,680 --> 00:18:58,600
doing the same type of work, I 
am a nurse, I am a blue collar 

306
00:18:58,600 --> 00:19:04,280
worker, I'm a dentist, whatever.
And yet I can no longer pay the 

307
00:19:04,280 --> 00:19:06,680
bills. 
Like what's going on, you know, 

308
00:19:07,720 --> 00:19:12,440
So, so yeah, I mean, I think war
is a good word, definitely a 

309
00:19:12,440 --> 00:19:16,360
good word to to explore about 
what's what's happening. 

310
00:19:17,040 --> 00:19:21,240
Yeah, yeah, I am thinking about 
what you just said about the the

311
00:19:21,320 --> 00:19:23,640
threats. 
You know I'm, I'm going to look 

312
00:19:23,640 --> 00:19:27,480
up a tweet while I'm talking. 
You know the, the, the gas 

313
00:19:27,480 --> 00:19:30,880
lighting that we're going to see
is all well that we're already 

314
00:19:30,880 --> 00:19:36,360
seeing is off the charts, right?
I I saw the Dutch National Bank 

315
00:19:36,720 --> 00:19:44,480
April seven they said higher 
loans are fueling inflation and 

316
00:19:44,480 --> 00:19:49,000
today they said again Dutch 
Dutch National Bank, high 

317
00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:54,520
inflation. 
Oh no, sorry, April seven, they 

318
00:19:54,520 --> 00:19:58,560
said higher loans do not fuel 
inflation. 

319
00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:02,000
And today they said. 
Higher inflation is due to 

320
00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:05,160
higher loans, you know, so if, 
if they don't. 

321
00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:07,880
Know, I think Madeline Voss 
tweeted that, right? 

322
00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:10,480
Oh yeah, Also she there there 
were some Dutch. 

323
00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:11,200
People. 
Yeah, that. 

324
00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:13,080
Oh, I see. 
But yeah, I mean, like, 

325
00:20:13,240 --> 00:20:15,000
absolutely, absolutely. 
They don't understand. 

326
00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:17,000
How can you, you know, like or 
or? 

327
00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:20,840
Well, they pretend, you know. 
Well, So what happens in again 

328
00:20:20,840 --> 00:20:26,480
in this situation of war of of 
people of confusion and and it's

329
00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:34,040
it's it really goes very deep. 
I think people already sense 

330
00:20:34,040 --> 00:20:37,880
basically that something is off 
and they feel threatened. 

331
00:20:37,920 --> 00:20:41,520
They feel like their livelihood 
is threatened, their future is 

332
00:20:41,520 --> 00:20:43,120
threatened. 
They don't know if they will get

333
00:20:43,120 --> 00:20:46,320
a pension or not, even though 
it's still too early for them to

334
00:20:46,320 --> 00:20:49,720
really say it out loud. 
Even regular people I believe 

335
00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:53,640
are starting to feel something 
is very wrong here. 

336
00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:57,360
Something is wrong and what you 
what you get in those kind of 

337
00:20:57,360 --> 00:21:03,880
environments is that much more 
quickly people tend to go in 

338
00:21:03,880 --> 00:21:09,960
fight or flight, which means 
their their prefrontal cortex 

339
00:21:09,960 --> 00:21:13,280
gets shut off and their reptile 
brain is more active. 

340
00:21:13,280 --> 00:21:16,800
It's all about trying to get out
of the moment, trying to get out

341
00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:19,600
of this situation, this kind of 
panicky feeling. 

342
00:21:20,040 --> 00:21:23,640
And then that means that this 
simple gaslighting, when you and

343
00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:27,360
I look at these headlines and 
think it doesn't make any sense 

344
00:21:27,840 --> 00:21:32,200
somehow for a person who is 
close to fight or flight, it's 

345
00:21:32,320 --> 00:21:33,920
it's enough. 
It's OK. 

346
00:21:34,280 --> 00:21:38,760
There's a reason the experts 
said they don't even think about

347
00:21:38,760 --> 00:21:41,160
what it really means or what the
reasoning is. 

348
00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:43,760
It's enough that they have a 
little, it's like a popsicle 

349
00:21:43,760 --> 00:21:45,640
they had. 
They're soothed for a little bit

350
00:21:46,240 --> 00:21:50,600
and and so I believe that's what
we're seeing is, is that more 

351
00:21:50,600 --> 00:21:54,360
and more people are starting to 
panic and that's why populism is

352
00:21:54,360 --> 00:21:59,760
able to grow because people 
don't have bandwidth to to go 

353
00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:02,400
into an in depth discussion 
about what's really going on 

354
00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:05,520
because they feel so insecure 
both emotionally and 

355
00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:09,160
financially, they're starting to
feel more and more insecure. 

356
00:22:09,560 --> 00:22:14,080
Yeah, now that's also why I 
said, you know, spiritual war in

357
00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:17,400
a sense, right? 
Your mind is obligated with this

358
00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:21,680
daily stuff basically and you 
don't. 

359
00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:24,040
You don't. 
Well, if you get the little 

360
00:22:24,040 --> 00:22:27,320
popsicle taste, you know like 
there's no, there's not really 

361
00:22:27,320 --> 00:22:32,440
space to actually view this from
a bit further than you know, 

362
00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:37,160
probably your ego that that you 
know gets talked to basically. 

363
00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:42,080
And you know it's of course very
off off center or not centered 

364
00:22:42,080 --> 00:22:44,880
if you just go along with you 
know the gas lighting that has 

365
00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:46,480
been in front of you. 
I I. 

366
00:22:47,600 --> 00:22:50,600
And and I just want to add, I 
just want to add before we go to

367
00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:53,760
The next thing is that if 
there's also a cycle at work 

368
00:22:53,760 --> 00:22:58,240
because the people who are 
panicking are then also they try

369
00:22:58,240 --> 00:23:02,480
to prevent getting triggered 
again. 

370
00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:05,240
And so they start censoring 
other people. 

371
00:23:05,240 --> 00:23:07,200
They start saying like, oh, you 
can't say that. 

372
00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:10,600
And so now we're seeing more and
more censorship happening and 

373
00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:13,880
and silencing, but that of 
course creates more anxiety 

374
00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:18,240
because then you, you know that 
you cannot ask certain questions

375
00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:20,400
and you won't even go there, 
right. 

376
00:23:20,400 --> 00:23:26,720
So there is a there is almost 
like we're we're all being 

377
00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:33,400
pushed into a state of delusion 
like that's we're being 

378
00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:37,240
encouraged to go there more and 
more utopian, delusional. 

379
00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:41,040
And of course, you know, it's 
unsustainable, but I think 

380
00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:53,880
that's how it works. 
Yeah, I lost you for a second. 

381
00:23:54,440 --> 00:24:03,800
But I was just I'm I'm done. 
Yeah, it's the it's kind of like

382
00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:06,720
the don't think for yourself, 
we'll take care of you or 

383
00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:09,960
something, right. 
Like I just saw a video of these

384
00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:13,800
demonstrations on the colleges 
in in America and they are like,

385
00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:16,880
we are hungry and we are called 
you should take care of us. 

386
00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:19,880
And it's so paradoxical and you 
look at that, right. 

387
00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:23,920
It's like I'm protesting the 
government but please take care 

388
00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:25,280
of me, right. 
I'm like what? 

389
00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:26,720
What? 
You know. 

390
00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:30,720
But but they are serious, right?
So we can kind of laugh about it

391
00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:32,800
maybe. 
But they are, they really feel 

392
00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:34,280
that and they're acting like 
that, right. 

393
00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:36,800
So I think that's an 
illustration of what what you 

394
00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:38,400
just said. 
Yeah. 

395
00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:40,880
It's it's, it's fascinating to 
see. 

396
00:24:41,120 --> 00:24:45,360
I feel a bit, I don't know, like
helpless in the sense like I 

397
00:24:45,360 --> 00:24:46,840
don't, I don't know what to do 
about it. 

398
00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:48,680
Right. 
Like you you're viewing it and I

399
00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:50,680
think you you illustrated it in 
a great way. 

400
00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:53,000
But what do you think? 
Like what? 

401
00:24:53,040 --> 00:24:59,640
What should we do? 
Well, I believe one there, there

402
00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:04,920
is some, there is some good 
knowledge in the world of 

403
00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:08,240
addictions and how to deal with 
people who are addicted. 

404
00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:13,720
And I do believe it's accurate 
to to talk about people who are 

405
00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:17,520
emotionally immature and who are
both the students in your 

406
00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:21,240
example and the government. 
They are both acting like 

407
00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:24,960
emotional children really and 
they are both Co dependent on 

408
00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:27,080
each other like the the 
government needs the 

409
00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:30,600
helplessness from the people and
the people need the government 

410
00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:35,640
to to tell them they cannot fix 
it themselves and and we are 

411
00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:40,000
going to take care of you so. 
So there is that destructive 

412
00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:43,600
cycle that's happening, which is
similar to if you live in a in a

413
00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:48,800
family with lots of addicts, 
everybody is is creating more 

414
00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:51,600
and more chaos. 
And what you need to do to 

415
00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:56,440
survive and to just become 
healthy is to to create distance

416
00:25:56,440 --> 00:25:59,160
between yourself and that. 
And it doesn't mean you have to 

417
00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:04,640
necessarily leave the country 
you live in but it does mean 

418
00:26:05,120 --> 00:26:09,840
that you you think carefully 
about how to expose yourself to 

419
00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:12,880
this and and how much you can 
handle. 

420
00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:16,720
And because if you get sucked 
into for example, lots of 

421
00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:22,160
political debates and things 
like that, I think it's crazy 

422
00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:26,560
making and and you're more 
likely to actually become part 

423
00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:28,680
of the problem. 
Because you just become so 

424
00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:32,480
reactive and and you feel more 
and more helpless than if you 

425
00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:37,120
make more distance and have 
cultivate some compassion and 

426
00:26:37,120 --> 00:26:39,880
hang out with people who 
understand where you're coming 

427
00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:43,880
from and who are willing to have
just interesting conversations 

428
00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:48,360
in a more cool headed way, then 
it's also better. 

429
00:26:48,360 --> 00:26:50,200
You can much better take care of
yourself. 

430
00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:53,520
And because honestly, like 
living a kind of a Bitcoin 

431
00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:56,720
oriented life is challenging, 
there's lots of volatility. 

432
00:26:56,720 --> 00:26:59,200
Like people always say oh 
Bitcoin is so volatile. 

433
00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:03,480
But really what the volatility 
is just reflecting is how 

434
00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:06,640
emotionally volatile the rest of
the world is. 

435
00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:09,560
Because if you just buy Bitcoin 
once and you hold it, you are 

436
00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:11,880
not contributing to volatility, 
right? 

437
00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:15,200
It's it's the people who are 
just, oh, they're jumping on the

438
00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:18,080
gravy train and then they're 
selling and panicking and then 

439
00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:20,640
they're euphoric. 
They are creating it. 

440
00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:24,800
So we and it's a it's another 
way that we are already 

441
00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:27,520
confronted with the madness of 
the world. 

442
00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:30,960
So that's kind of my general 
thinking about this stuff is 

443
00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:35,240
that things are going to get 
worse economically and 

444
00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:40,040
politically and we we have to 
think of this. 

445
00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:44,480
Or it helps at least for me to 
think about this as these are 

446
00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:47,760
people who have a specific type 
of addiction, like they are 

447
00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:52,680
trying to avoid looking at the 
reality and they're making up a 

448
00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:54,840
lot of stories to help them do 
that. 

449
00:27:55,480 --> 00:28:00,280
And it's it's kind of a crazy 
life to be living that way, but 

450
00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:03,160
it's just where we are and it's 
going to last a while. 

451
00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:06,440
Yeah. 
I I love what you said about the

452
00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:09,880
volatility right. 
Like it's I've, I was a little 

453
00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:13,520
later than you but also eleven 
years now into Bitcoin right. 

454
00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:17,880
Like these. 
Yeah. 

455
00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:20,320
Literally what you said right. 
Like you do the work you 

456
00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:22,760
understand what this is. 
You understand its importance. 

457
00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:28,080
You understand the implications.
And I I once saw a tweet of 

458
00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:31,920
someone who said, like, if you 
even remotely think Bitcoin, you

459
00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:33,360
know Bitcoin is an experiment, 
right? 

460
00:28:33,360 --> 00:28:35,840
It's either zero or everything. 
That's always how I saw it. 

461
00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:39,640
And if you and then I saw a 
tweet once that said if you even

462
00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:44,320
think remotely think Bitcoin is 
not going to be 0, then you 

463
00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:45,960
should get a seat in the 
stadium, right? 

464
00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:49,360
And that's basically when I 
moved way, way more in. 

465
00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:53,120
But now we have the seat in the 
stadium, right. 

466
00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:58,120
And we see the fluctuations as 
you mentioned and actually 

467
00:28:58,120 --> 00:29:01,760
because we did the work and we 
are there, we are actually 

468
00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:05,040
improving also ourselves like 
what we just talked about, 

469
00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:07,640
right, like you, you're getting 
to know yourself because you're 

470
00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:10,120
looking at these other people 
that go, you know, they, they 

471
00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:12,400
follow the price, they go up and
down and there's hysteria and 

472
00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:15,360
the bubble pops a bit etcetera 
and you're still sitting there 

473
00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:19,960
on your hands, right. 
And you're learning to follow 

474
00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:22,080
yourself. 
You're learning to trust your 

475
00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:26,840
yourself and the feeling that 
you, I think, created or 

476
00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:29,600
manifested in a sense because 
you did the work right. 

477
00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:33,320
So that's I think also in part 
for me like how it changed me or

478
00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:36,880
improved my life is that I know 
that I can understand like trust

479
00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:42,480
myself with my diligence or my, 
you know, energy that I put in 

480
00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:44,760
into something. 
So I like that you said that 

481
00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:46,760
because I think that's a good 
analogy, right? 

482
00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:49,320
It's the other people that not 
understanding what this is, 

483
00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:50,560
yeah. 
Yeah. 

484
00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:53,880
And so the the weathering, the 
volatility is almost like an 

485
00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:58,280
emotional gym like you you go to
the gym and and there's times 

486
00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:02,280
when it's really hard and that's
the bear market or that's the 

487
00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:05,440
doubt or the the even the FOMO 
is also challenging. 

488
00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:10,280
I find often that the the the 
euphoria is actually the the 

489
00:30:10,280 --> 00:30:13,560
most difficult period for me 
when when there's everybody's 

490
00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:17,560
going crazy and and the the taxi
drivers are all talking about 

491
00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:21,720
Bitcoin that that's often the 
most challenging but so yeah but

492
00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:24,800
but I think it's great training 
like you say to like learn to 

493
00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:31,040
know yourself and and grow 
resilience to to just you know 

494
00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:35,040
irrational stuff for the world 
you know and and and take care 

495
00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:35,840
of ourselves. 
Sorry. 

496
00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:39,240
Yeah, not like it's resilience 
against irrationality. 

497
00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:41,600
Yeah, I'd say, yeah. 
Absolutely. 

498
00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:47,280
So if people want to get into 
into into Bitcoin and study it 

499
00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:51,240
right, what is like a very 
common misconception or 

500
00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:56,360
misunderstanding that you still 
encounter and how do you address

501
00:30:56,360 --> 00:30:59,360
it? 
Well, the gold bugs are 

502
00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:04,120
interesting people who love 
gold, because a lot of them have

503
00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:06,200
known about Bitcoin for 10 years
now. 

504
00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:10,960
And and of course there have 
been gold bugs that have adapted

505
00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:13,760
and are now just they own 
Bitcoin and gold. 

506
00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:18,040
But there are the holdouts who 
are still very adamant about 

507
00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:21,240
that Bitcoin cannot work. 
And so they are a pretty 

508
00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:25,280
interesting source of objections
against Bitcoin, because at 

509
00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:29,840
least they understand, yes, in 
order for money to really work, 

510
00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:33,240
it needs to be scarce. 
So, you know, at least there's a

511
00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:37,800
category of objections that are 
honestly ridiculous that you 

512
00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:39,840
could, that at least they don't 
have any more. 

513
00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:45,000
But they still really struggle 
with Bitcoin in, for example, 

514
00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:48,400
that it's not tangible, That's 
difficult for them, that you you

515
00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:51,440
cannot hold a Bitcoin in your 
hand, which is part of why it's 

516
00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:55,560
so powerful, of course, because 
it means you can store it in all

517
00:31:55,560 --> 00:31:58,280
kinds of ways that you cannot do
with gold. 

518
00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:02,880
And also that you can verify it 
much more accurately and rapidly

519
00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:05,840
than you can do with gold, which
people often don't think about. 

520
00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:09,640
But if you have a gold coin or a
gold bar, you don't know if it's

521
00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:11,280
real. 
It could be coated, you know it 

522
00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:13,680
could be tungsten with with the 
coating around it. 

523
00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:17,960
And then you really need some 
serious skill to be able to to 

524
00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:26,680
verify if if it's real or not. 
So, so yeah, like I said, like 

525
00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:29,080
those guys have some interesting
objections. 

526
00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:32,320
They often struggle also with 
the divisibility. 

527
00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:36,440
Weirdly, they think that the 
fact that or not everybody. 

528
00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:40,440
But there are a few who think 
that, oh, you can divide Bitcoin

529
00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:43,800
into a million pieces, one 
Bitcoin into a million pieces. 

530
00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:49,720
That means it's not scarce. 
Like the pizza lady. 

531
00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:52,480
Yeah, exactly. 
So yeah, I mean, and then of 

532
00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:55,800
course there's doom scenarios 
that they have about, yeah, what

533
00:32:55,800 --> 00:33:00,080
if all the electricity fails on 
the planet, there's some kind of

534
00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:04,480
Carrington event, a big solar 
flare and all the electricity 

535
00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:06,760
falls out, then what are you 
going to do? 

536
00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:10,200
But the fact is that as long as 
we have one copy of the 

537
00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:13,600
blockchain he's even on could be
on the surface of the moon or in

538
00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:16,880
a satellite somewhere, one copy 
of the blockchain, and we find a

539
00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:22,200
way to store that copy and then 
later recreate some computers, 

540
00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:24,560
then we can actually reboot the 
network. 

541
00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:27,280
And no matter when. 
And of course, you know, once 

542
00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:29,640
we're in the Stone Age, like, I 
don't know if you'll be able to 

543
00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:31,440
do a lot with your gold coins 
either. 

544
00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:38,440
You know, I think that the fact 
that like their counter 

545
00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:46,320
arguments of a solar flare on 
the scale of probability is very

546
00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:48,600
far. 
It's probably on the other end 

547
00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:52,520
of the spectrum. 
Then you know our argument and 

548
00:33:52,520 --> 00:33:56,280
the probability of what if you 
want to sell your gold right now

549
00:33:56,840 --> 00:34:02,280
to someone in China when you are
in the US at 3:00 AM in the 

550
00:34:02,280 --> 00:34:05,400
night, right? 
That's a more probable scenario,

551
00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:07,280
yeah. 
What if you lived in Ukraine and

552
00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:09,840
war breaks out and you have a 
kilo of gold? 

553
00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:11,920
Are you going to, are you going 
to be able to take it with you 

554
00:34:11,920 --> 00:34:13,880
across the border? 
Yeah, I don't know. 

555
00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:17,800
No, we do know a bunch of 
stories of people who had 

556
00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:22,000
Bitcoin and and actually used it
to get out, so. 

557
00:34:22,880 --> 00:34:26,239
Yeah, I like the I don't know if
you saw the talk by Jack Mahlers

558
00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:29,360
at Bitcoin Atlantis. 
I haven't seen it yet, no. 

559
00:34:30,159 --> 00:34:33,000
Yeah, for me, that's one of the 
best explanations I've seen in 

560
00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:36,600
in 10 years. 
But he said you can store, you 

561
00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:39,440
know, Bitcoin is stored in your 
head and gold is stored in your 

562
00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:41,280
butt, he said. 
And then he had like this 

563
00:34:41,280 --> 00:34:44,920
article of someone who tried to 
smuggle gold right in the in the

564
00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:49,520
plane, you know, And I think, 
you know, it's it's it's a fun, 

565
00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:53,320
silly equation, but it's just 
very true, you know, once you 

566
00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:57,920
understand kind of like the 
metaphysical nature of Bitcoin 

567
00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:02,520
and you are like, you know, I I 
flew to Thailand a few months 

568
00:35:02,520 --> 00:35:05,240
ago and they're like if you have
more than 10,000 U.S. dollars 

569
00:35:05,240 --> 00:35:08,520
equivalent, you know, fill in 
this form And I thought I have 

570
00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:10,320
more but you don't know that, 
right? 

571
00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:12,080
And. 
Also, it's in the cloud. 

572
00:35:12,160 --> 00:35:13,800
That was it. 
You don't have it physically 

573
00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:15,520
with you. 
It's stored on the blockchain. 

574
00:35:15,520 --> 00:35:17,280
You only have the key with you 
maybe. 

575
00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:19,120
Yeah. 
Well, yes, maybe. 

576
00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:22,920
So if you ask me tomorrow and I 
say no, like, how do you prove 

577
00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:24,360
it? 
You know, like, I I think this 

578
00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:27,400
is the entire point for me. 
That's the magic in a sense, 

579
00:35:27,400 --> 00:35:29,160
right? 
Like you're the only one who 

580
00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:32,720
knows if you, if you own it. 
And like that is real. 

581
00:35:33,200 --> 00:35:34,640
That's real sovereignty in a 
sense. 

582
00:35:35,080 --> 00:35:38,760
Well, and I think Jack's, Jack's
way of describing it is actually

583
00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:45,120
also it's not as trivial what 
he's saying because he's 

584
00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:49,480
describing duress scenarios. 
He's he's basically saying if it

585
00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:53,400
really comes down to it and 
you're really under stress, how 

586
00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:55,800
are you going to store gold 
versus how you're going to store

587
00:35:55,800 --> 00:35:57,960
Bitcoin? 
And that's always the true test 

588
00:35:57,960 --> 00:36:01,440
of technology is will it stand 
withstand duress. 

589
00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:03,160
That's why Bitcoin is so 
redundant. 

590
00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:05,440
There's 75,000 nodes around the 
world. 

591
00:36:07,520 --> 00:36:10,200
So yeah, it's it's it's an 
interesting way to think about 

592
00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:13,120
it. 
Yeah. 

593
00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:17,840
So you mentioned briefly, I 
think the the article or well 

594
00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:20,400
you mentioned reformation, but 
you wrote a paper called the 

595
00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:26,120
Bitcoin Reformation and you 
argue that you know Bitcoin is a

596
00:36:26,120 --> 00:36:28,840
is a catalyzer for huge change. 
I think we just touched upon 

597
00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:33,760
that, right, like on our views 
on on money, our views on and 

598
00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:37,520
how we use money, what drives, 
what drives this? 

599
00:36:37,520 --> 00:36:38,960
Can you elaborate a little bit 
on it? 

600
00:36:38,960 --> 00:36:43,600
Like, why does Bitcoin catalyze 
this this huge change in the 

601
00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:47,520
world? 
Because it challenges the 

602
00:36:47,520 --> 00:36:50,960
monopoly of the global monetary 
order. 

603
00:36:53,360 --> 00:36:58,840
The analogy that I made was that
back in the early 1500s, the 

604
00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:04,320
Catholic Church had a monopoly 
on you could call it access to 

605
00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:07,160
heaven, something like that, 
like a peaceful afterlife. 

606
00:37:07,160 --> 00:37:10,400
That was what the Church had a 
monopoly on a service that it 

607
00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:14,080
was providing. 
And the the Protestants early on

608
00:37:14,080 --> 00:37:18,520
they did not have a a a common 
set of beliefs. 

609
00:37:18,520 --> 00:37:23,240
The only thing that they thought
was, well, why do we need the 

610
00:37:23,240 --> 00:37:26,800
church to do that? 
Can we just on on our own find 

611
00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:32,040
other ways to to to find 
salvation and and then that 

612
00:37:32,040 --> 00:37:37,360
meant that they just would stop 
paying the taxes to Italy to and

613
00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:39,520
and of course it's it's 
complicated too because back 

614
00:37:39,520 --> 00:37:44,440
then the Catholic Church was 
instrumental also I believe at 

615
00:37:44,440 --> 00:37:50,640
least via their alliances with 
Catholic governments to push the

616
00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:56,560
the Islamic threat because there
was a lot of a lot of warfare 

617
00:37:56,560 --> 00:37:59,880
happening in the Mediterranean 
and of course you probably know 

618
00:37:59,880 --> 00:38:04,080
at some point Spain got occupied
this is in the early Middle Ages

619
00:38:04,280 --> 00:38:08,600
Spain got almost entirely 
occupied by the the Ottoman 

620
00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:10,400
Empire. 
So. 

621
00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:15,000
So it's there is an argument to 
be made why the Catholics felt 

622
00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:18,440
like it was so important that 
they had that power to basically

623
00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:22,160
maintain the peace in Europe. 
But anyway, like the the Dutch 

624
00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:27,520
said like, hey, like we want to 
do things differently and some 

625
00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:32,800
some Germans of course and and 
French and so similarly now we 

626
00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:37,840
are subject to a monopoly of the
IMF, the, you know, the the 

627
00:38:38,040 --> 00:38:41,280
global financial system 
basically that is working kind 

628
00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:43,040
of similarly to the Catholic 
Church. 

629
00:38:43,040 --> 00:38:47,560
It's a hierarchical system and 
there's a lot of separate 

630
00:38:47,560 --> 00:38:50,920
organizations that are involved 
in it and that get benefits from

631
00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:53,440
it. 
And in order to get financial 

632
00:38:53,440 --> 00:38:56,120
salvation, you have to work with
the banks. 

633
00:38:56,120 --> 00:38:59,960
You know that that's that you 
are tied to this system and that

634
00:38:59,960 --> 00:39:02,920
means your money is in a bank 
and they can take it away if 

635
00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:05,840
they want to. 
They can inflate it away. 

636
00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:08,360
There's so much power that they 
have over your financial life. 

637
00:39:08,360 --> 00:39:12,320
And Bitcoin is saying, hey, can 
we just do this independently? 

638
00:39:12,320 --> 00:39:15,920
Why do we need you guys? 
And so in that sense it's 

639
00:39:15,920 --> 00:39:18,040
heresy. 
It is, it is breaking that 

640
00:39:18,040 --> 00:39:21,440
convention and and that is 
historic. 

641
00:39:21,560 --> 00:39:25,040
You know that that is a once in 
a 500 year type event in my 

642
00:39:25,040 --> 00:39:27,920
opinion. 
Yeah, yeah. 

643
00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:30,920
I really love that analogy, 
right. 

644
00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:36,320
Or that that illustration, the 
fact that a third party creates 

645
00:39:36,320 --> 00:39:40,920
an application that you use in 
your daily life of which you 

646
00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:45,240
think you know improves your 
life, but the issuer of the 

647
00:39:45,240 --> 00:39:48,080
application has the real 
influence, right? 

648
00:39:48,080 --> 00:39:51,320
Or or the real, the real 
benefits. 

649
00:39:51,360 --> 00:39:56,720
Yeah, I I I think that's right. 
They they there's a lot of they 

650
00:39:56,840 --> 00:39:58,640
they they, yeah. 
They tell you that they're 

651
00:39:58,720 --> 00:40:00,440
they're offering you this 
service. 

652
00:40:00,440 --> 00:40:04,600
But they keep skimming. 
They keep taxing you in in a way

653
00:40:04,600 --> 00:40:09,160
that's invisible. 
That is the the That's the thing

654
00:40:09,160 --> 00:40:11,520
that's uncomfortable and and 
wrong in my. 

655
00:40:11,520 --> 00:40:12,960
Opinion. 
Yeah. 

656
00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:19,000
And in the book you mentioned 
millennials, I think as the 

657
00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:23,160
primary like adopters that that 
will drive the Reformation 

658
00:40:23,160 --> 00:40:28,200
because they will inherit, you 
know, more wealth from from 

659
00:40:28,200 --> 00:40:30,040
their parents, grandparents, 
etcetera. 

660
00:40:31,080 --> 00:40:33,160
How do you see this progressing 
now? 

661
00:40:33,160 --> 00:40:37,320
I I think you saw the video of 
the, the graduation speech. 

662
00:40:37,320 --> 00:40:39,440
You know, that generation is 
probably a bit younger. 

663
00:40:39,440 --> 00:40:40,200
That's Gen. 
Z. 

664
00:40:41,240 --> 00:40:43,440
They were booing, which it's 
it's interesting. 

665
00:40:43,440 --> 00:40:44,800
It's an interesting 
conversation. 

666
00:40:44,800 --> 00:40:46,880
But like how? 
How do you see it with regards 

667
00:40:46,880 --> 00:40:49,960
to to millennials? 
Of course, This is why I started

668
00:40:49,960 --> 00:40:52,080
this podcast. 
But yeah, interesting. 

669
00:40:52,080 --> 00:40:53,000
Interesting. 
Yeah. 

670
00:40:53,600 --> 00:40:55,840
Yeah. 
I believe millennials. 

671
00:40:56,880 --> 00:41:01,840
What's your, I believe I'm, I'm 
part of the oldest slice of the 

672
00:41:01,840 --> 00:41:05,600
millennials. 
I believe that if you, if you 

673
00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:10,840
were 16 years old when 911 
happened, you are a millennial. 

674
00:41:11,240 --> 00:41:12,520
I. 
Yeah. 

675
00:41:12,520 --> 00:41:16,000
Yeah. 
It's between 8081 and 96. 

676
00:41:16,360 --> 00:41:18,760
OK, Yeah. 
Well. 

677
00:41:19,720 --> 00:41:23,200
I was 14. 
I think, yeah, I think we of 

678
00:41:23,200 --> 00:41:27,200
course Gen. 
Z as well, but we have the 

679
00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:32,440
privilege of or yeah, really the
luck that there is some 

680
00:41:32,680 --> 00:41:35,920
prosperity that we saw in our 
younger life, like hopefully we 

681
00:41:35,920 --> 00:41:38,000
were able to build up some 
savings as well. 

682
00:41:38,320 --> 00:41:41,760
We are most likely to inherit 
from the boomers more, let me 

683
00:41:41,760 --> 00:41:44,120
more sooner than the Gen. 
Z generation. 

684
00:41:46,080 --> 00:41:50,760
And then also we grew up. 
Not everyone, but, but a bunch 

685
00:41:50,760 --> 00:41:53,920
of us grew up experiencing 
things like BitTorrent, for 

686
00:41:53,920 --> 00:41:59,040
example, where you download 
music and videos in a completely

687
00:41:59,040 --> 00:42:02,960
decentralized way. 
And that's I feel pretty certain

688
00:42:02,960 --> 00:42:07,080
that that's something that 
helped me a lot in grasping 

689
00:42:07,080 --> 00:42:09,120
Bitcoin on a kind of a core 
level. 

690
00:42:09,120 --> 00:42:11,080
It's like, oh, it's like 
BitTorrent but money. 

691
00:42:11,520 --> 00:42:15,560
Whereas older people, they don't
understand the idea that a 

692
00:42:15,560 --> 00:42:18,080
technology exists and nobody's 
in charge. 

693
00:42:18,080 --> 00:42:21,120
Like that's weird to them or 
especially digital technology. 

694
00:42:23,480 --> 00:42:27,520
So yeah I think we have a lot 
going for us and to an extent 

695
00:42:27,520 --> 00:42:29,480
now it's harder to build up 
wealth. 

696
00:42:29,560 --> 00:42:31,920
Of course if you're active in 
the Bitcoin economy more and 

697
00:42:31,920 --> 00:42:34,160
more there's more and more 
opportunities to do that. 

698
00:42:35,880 --> 00:42:38,720
But of course, yeah there is 
going to be some some money 

699
00:42:38,720 --> 00:42:41,680
that's going to be inherited and
and I think that a lot of the 

700
00:42:41,680 --> 00:42:44,480
gold bars that people inherit 
are going to be sold for 

701
00:42:44,480 --> 00:42:47,880
Bitcoin. 
So I I'm, I'm not I haven't 

702
00:42:47,880 --> 00:42:52,440
studied it more especially the 
the the difference with Gen. 

703
00:42:52,440 --> 00:42:55,440
Z for example. 
I'm not, I'm not I don't feel 

704
00:42:55,480 --> 00:42:57,720
particularly confident about 
that but I do feel the 

705
00:42:57,720 --> 00:43:05,800
millennials have a little have a
just some some extra benefit to 

706
00:43:05,800 --> 00:43:08,080
the things that they've 
experienced compared to Gen. 

707
00:43:08,080 --> 00:43:09,760
X for example. 
Yeah. 

708
00:43:10,320 --> 00:43:13,760
I think, like how I look at 
this, I I, I think I had two 

709
00:43:13,760 --> 00:43:17,120
tweets about gold this week. 
One was I saw a video of a 

710
00:43:17,120 --> 00:43:19,480
woman, like emptying a bag of 
like gold bars. 

711
00:43:19,480 --> 00:43:21,600
Right. 
And then you know, talking about

712
00:43:21,600 --> 00:43:23,760
also what you just said, like 
you need three machines to 

713
00:43:23,760 --> 00:43:26,280
verify if it's real, right? 
Like, how are you going to move 

714
00:43:26,280 --> 00:43:27,640
this? 
How are you going to sell this 

715
00:43:27,640 --> 00:43:29,520
in the middle of the night? 
I got for these things. 

716
00:43:29,640 --> 00:43:32,240
It's just stupid. 
Like, I could download the song,

717
00:43:32,800 --> 00:43:36,880
you know, during my 1:00 AM 
Internet surfing period. 

718
00:43:36,880 --> 00:43:39,920
Or, you know, when I was 15 and 
I saw a song, I downloaded it 

719
00:43:39,920 --> 00:43:41,280
instantly. 
I got it right. 

720
00:43:41,640 --> 00:43:45,040
And I don't know who hosted it, 
maybe not even anyone in the 

721
00:43:45,040 --> 00:43:47,720
Netherlands, right? 
And so I think that experience 

722
00:43:47,720 --> 00:43:49,520
is interesting. 
But also the other one, like, 

723
00:43:50,720 --> 00:43:54,480
really, I'm going to store value
in a shiny Rock, You know, like 

724
00:43:54,480 --> 00:43:58,440
the the fact that we were on the
border of, you know, the 

725
00:43:58,440 --> 00:44:01,160
physical and the digital world 
and we got introduced to this 

726
00:44:01,160 --> 00:44:05,400
digital world, right. 
But we still used in our youth 

727
00:44:05,400 --> 00:44:07,760
stuff from from the physical 
world, right. 

728
00:44:07,760 --> 00:44:12,480
I think it gives us a great 
perspective on, yeah, I don't 

729
00:44:12,480 --> 00:44:14,840
know, like, I just think like 
shiny rocks, you know, like it 

730
00:44:14,880 --> 00:44:19,000
is, it's just it's weird. 
It feels so antiquated, right. 

731
00:44:19,200 --> 00:44:21,880
And. 
And it's 2024. 

732
00:44:22,360 --> 00:44:26,400
It's just, yeah, I don't know. 
I think it's fascinating, but 

733
00:44:26,400 --> 00:44:27,800
confusing at the same time, 
right. 

734
00:44:27,800 --> 00:44:30,720
But for me, like gold, I never 
even looked at gold, right? 

735
00:44:30,840 --> 00:44:34,880
Even when I found Bitcoin and 
and and and started getting more

736
00:44:34,880 --> 00:44:36,360
into the store value stuff, 
etcetera. 

737
00:44:36,360 --> 00:44:39,720
Like I never looked at gold. 
Because it's just like, you 

738
00:44:39,720 --> 00:44:41,360
know, Cleopatra had gold. 
Like what? 

739
00:44:41,360 --> 00:44:44,480
What are we doing? 
You know, like that's kind of my

740
00:44:44,480 --> 00:44:47,240
feeling. 
In some way we should thank the 

741
00:44:47,240 --> 00:44:50,840
central bankers because they 
really promoted the idea that 

742
00:44:50,840 --> 00:44:53,600
you can store monetary value on 
a Ledger. 

743
00:44:53,600 --> 00:44:56,200
The only thing we're saying is 
why does it have to be your 

744
00:44:56,200 --> 00:44:57,080
Ledger? 
Yeah. 

745
00:44:57,080 --> 00:44:58,520
This is a better Ledger. 
Exactly. 

746
00:44:58,640 --> 00:45:00,200
Right. 
So you're moving to another 

747
00:45:00,200 --> 00:45:03,120
system that is controlled by by 
no one. 

748
00:45:03,120 --> 00:45:07,760
But yeah, I I pasted the little 
I want a tweet from you in my in

749
00:45:07,760 --> 00:45:10,840
my in my notion that I used to 
to to prep. 

750
00:45:10,840 --> 00:45:16,480
But this was you tweeted the 
gold price kilo of gold in 

751
00:45:16,480 --> 00:45:20,080
Bitcoin, I think yeah. 
So you said this is a market 

752
00:45:20,080 --> 00:45:23,200
battle of the ages. 
Once one Bitcoin trades over 10 

753
00:45:23,200 --> 00:45:26,000
kilograms of gold bitcoins, 
market capital has surpassed 

754
00:45:26,480 --> 00:45:28,800
that of the world's above ground
gold stock. 

755
00:45:28,800 --> 00:45:31,080
Right. 
And one of the things I find 

756
00:45:31,080 --> 00:45:36,000
super interesting is, you know, 
if we replace gold as the most 

757
00:45:36,000 --> 00:45:39,120
valuable asset on Earth, you 
know, when we grew up, we 

758
00:45:39,120 --> 00:45:42,640
learned well to have, you know, 
you, you should have gold and 

759
00:45:42,640 --> 00:45:45,200
you should have silver, right. 
And if you ever buy like real 

760
00:45:45,200 --> 00:45:47,920
forks and ice like cut free for 
yourself, it should be like nice

761
00:45:47,920 --> 00:45:50,680
silver, you know, And this is 
like the narrative, right? 

762
00:45:50,680 --> 00:45:54,440
But we have been above silver, 
so that narrative was then 

763
00:45:54,440 --> 00:45:57,040
already destroyed, right? 
Then it's gold, Bitcoin, silver.

764
00:45:57,640 --> 00:46:02,000
And once we pass gold, it's the 
that entire narrative that 

765
00:46:02,560 --> 00:46:05,880
hundreds of millions of people 
grew up with is dead. 

766
00:46:06,240 --> 00:46:09,760
You know, I I'm waiting for that
day because I think that is 

767
00:46:09,760 --> 00:46:15,960
really one of the big inflection
points also in, yeah, kind of 

768
00:46:15,960 --> 00:46:19,440
substantiating the value of 
Bitcoin, right? 

769
00:46:19,440 --> 00:46:22,920
Like, yes, there is more value 
and it's all like none of it is 

770
00:46:22,920 --> 00:46:28,560
paper by the way, right. 
Which with gold and silver, you 

771
00:46:28,560 --> 00:46:30,040
know is still very unclear, 
right. 

772
00:46:30,040 --> 00:46:34,120
So I think it solidifies lots of
the arguments that we now share.

773
00:46:34,360 --> 00:46:37,240
Yeah. 
And and because I I was pretty 

774
00:46:37,240 --> 00:46:40,200
deeply involved in the gold 
world before I discovered 

775
00:46:40,200 --> 00:46:45,480
Bitcoin as, as a way to think 
about protecting against 

776
00:46:45,480 --> 00:46:49,640
inflation. 
And it really has been kind of 

777
00:46:49,640 --> 00:46:54,160
where the conservative impulse 
has been stored in a way like 

778
00:46:54,160 --> 00:46:59,240
the the, the, the investment 
conservative impulse that most 

779
00:46:59,240 --> 00:47:01,960
people who have that they've 
always had some gold. 

780
00:47:03,960 --> 00:47:06,960
And I think you're right, I 
think that people underestimate 

781
00:47:06,960 --> 00:47:10,960
the psychological power that 
gold still has in this world. 

782
00:47:11,000 --> 00:47:15,440
And it's so interesting that the
resistance that we're seeing 

783
00:47:15,760 --> 00:47:21,560
just priced technically actually
in 2021 and 2022 we we were 

784
00:47:22,160 --> 00:47:25,040
very, very close to 1K of gold 
in Bitcoin. 

785
00:47:25,040 --> 00:47:28,960
And then we went to it again and
then we went down and now we're 

786
00:47:28,960 --> 00:47:31,880
again, even though the dollar 
price has been higher because 

787
00:47:31,880 --> 00:47:35,520
gold has gone up as well, we're 
basically again pushing against 

788
00:47:35,520 --> 00:47:38,200
the limit of 1K of gold per 
Bitcoin. 

789
00:47:38,200 --> 00:47:40,640
And I think it's probably not a 
coincidence there is something 

790
00:47:40,640 --> 00:47:44,400
psychological similar to there's
been dollar barriers as well 

791
00:47:44,400 --> 00:47:48,440
where there is resistance at 
$1.10 and 100 and 1000 because 

792
00:47:48,440 --> 00:47:51,400
people think like, oh, but 
Bitcoin cannot be worth more 

793
00:47:51,400 --> 00:47:54,240
than that. 
And so once we go above a kilo, 

794
00:47:54,240 --> 00:47:57,200
then the next target is 10K, 
which is literally what you're 

795
00:47:57,200 --> 00:48:00,800
saying, that parity with gold. 
It means Bitcoin is worth as 

796
00:48:00,800 --> 00:48:05,840
much as gold once we hit 10K, 
And I think you're right, if we 

797
00:48:05,840 --> 00:48:10,800
go above 10K, it's going to be 
pretty monumental. 

798
00:48:10,800 --> 00:48:15,600
It's it's going to because all 
the conservative people will 

799
00:48:15,600 --> 00:48:19,760
then have to deal with Bitcoin. 
They can no longer say, oh, it's

800
00:48:19,760 --> 00:48:22,080
the little brother and who 
cares? 

801
00:48:22,320 --> 00:48:25,560
It's like, no, no, no. 
This is bigger than gold now, in

802
00:48:25,560 --> 00:48:27,960
20 years or however long it's 
going to take. 

803
00:48:28,520 --> 00:48:32,560
Yeah, or you can flip the 
delusional script on the gold 

804
00:48:32,560 --> 00:48:35,520
box, right? 
You know, because then more 

805
00:48:35,520 --> 00:48:38,480
people trust Bitcoin at that 
point than than gold to store 

806
00:48:38,480 --> 00:48:39,120
their. 
Value right. 

807
00:48:39,120 --> 00:48:43,280
Yeah I think I'll always I'll 
always have some some kind words

808
00:48:43,280 --> 00:48:46,880
for gold bugs no matter if they 
hate Bitcoin because they they 

809
00:48:46,880 --> 00:48:53,480
still really care about scarcity
and and generally you know don't

810
00:48:53,480 --> 00:48:55,840
spend more than you have and 
those kind of things. 

811
00:48:55,840 --> 00:49:01,160
So I I, I I don't know I I will 
always have some sympathy and of

812
00:49:01,160 --> 00:49:05,160
course you know it's it's there 
is some merit in general to 

813
00:49:05,160 --> 00:49:08,720
being a little bit conservative 
and not just jumping on board of

814
00:49:08,720 --> 00:49:12,360
a new train if it's only 15 
years old like they they are 

815
00:49:12,360 --> 00:49:16,400
right to say gold's been around 
for 6000 years Bitcoin is 15 

816
00:49:16,400 --> 00:49:21,360
years old you know that's we 
need time to I don't know I I I 

817
00:49:21,400 --> 00:49:23,360
don't judge anyone for for 
waiting. 

818
00:49:23,360 --> 00:49:26,080
No, me neither. 
I I what I just meant with like,

819
00:49:26,080 --> 00:49:29,240
you know, shiny rocks, like that
is for me, like I grew up. 

820
00:49:29,320 --> 00:49:29,760
Yeah. 
Yeah. 

821
00:49:30,400 --> 00:49:32,280
On the Internet, right. 
Yeah. 

822
00:49:32,920 --> 00:49:35,800
One side question, when you said
like, yes, it's it's just 15 

823
00:49:35,800 --> 00:49:37,560
years old, right. 
I think if you see the 

824
00:49:37,560 --> 00:49:41,360
comparison, you know, the the 
table between Bitcoin and gold, 

825
00:49:41,800 --> 00:49:44,720
right. 
The only thing which is more 

826
00:49:44,720 --> 00:49:48,160
negative on the Bitcoin side 
than gold is like the the age 

827
00:49:48,160 --> 00:49:50,760
right. 
They say you know and then from 

828
00:49:50,760 --> 00:49:57,720
age people derive trust them I'm
I'm assuming would you say that 

829
00:49:57,720 --> 00:50:05,160
something like that having right
where we basically see are we 

830
00:50:05,160 --> 00:50:08,480
kind of like celebrate that you 
know the monetary policy of the 

831
00:50:08,480 --> 00:50:13,320
protocol is still enforced and 
adopted right, because we we 

832
00:50:13,320 --> 00:50:17,400
dropped the the block rewards. 
Would you say that that like 

833
00:50:18,280 --> 00:50:23,560
repeating event slash 
transparency would actually 

834
00:50:24,120 --> 00:50:27,680
should actually like speed up 
the time if that makes sense, 

835
00:50:27,680 --> 00:50:29,040
right. 
It's not 15 years like it. 

836
00:50:29,040 --> 00:50:31,920
It's something that's added to 
the quality of Bitcoin, 

837
00:50:31,920 --> 00:50:34,000
something that we do not have 
with gold, right. 

838
00:50:34,000 --> 00:50:38,360
Like the the 2% inflation number
for gold. 

839
00:50:38,360 --> 00:50:40,920
They say it's not a scientific 
number. 

840
00:50:40,920 --> 00:50:43,480
It's not a proven number, right.
Nobody can, nobody can really 

841
00:50:43,480 --> 00:50:46,720
check it and when there's 
asteroid mining, you know, then 

842
00:50:46,720 --> 00:50:48,560
then that narrative also dies 
right. 

843
00:50:48,560 --> 00:50:51,080
So yeah, I just want to ask 
your, your thoughts on that, 

844
00:50:51,080 --> 00:50:53,760
because for me that is something
that adds to Bitcoin that 

845
00:50:53,760 --> 00:50:57,440
nothing else has basically. 
Does that make sense? 

846
00:50:58,040 --> 00:50:58,760
No. 
Yeah. 

847
00:50:58,760 --> 00:51:03,880
It makes sense that that it's so
elegant, you know, to have one 

848
00:51:03,880 --> 00:51:08,920
event every four years to to cut
the inflation in half because he

849
00:51:08,920 --> 00:51:12,040
could have done it in a 
different way that it was more a

850
00:51:12,040 --> 00:51:17,040
smooth curve. 
But I I find it, yeah, it's 

851
00:51:17,040 --> 00:51:19,360
fascinating. 
It's really elegant and it's 

852
00:51:19,400 --> 00:51:21,600
almost so like a global PR 
event. 

853
00:51:21,600 --> 00:51:24,760
It advertises that, hey, like 
Bitcoin is just cutting. 

854
00:51:24,760 --> 00:51:27,240
That's what I mean. 
Once more, we just we keep 

855
00:51:27,240 --> 00:51:30,840
trucking. 
It's it's it's like the solar 

856
00:51:30,840 --> 00:51:33,000
eclipse, like it's predicted. 
And then it happens. 

857
00:51:33,000 --> 00:51:34,680
It's like, Oh my God, this is 
real. 

858
00:51:35,680 --> 00:51:42,080
It's it's so powerful. 
In that sense, Yeah, I you're 

859
00:51:42,080 --> 00:51:43,360
right. 
Gold doesn't have that. 

860
00:51:43,360 --> 00:51:47,400
And actually when gold becomes 
more popular, the inflation goes

861
00:51:47,400 --> 00:51:50,840
up because the price goes up, so
it's more profitable to mine. 

862
00:51:50,840 --> 00:51:55,800
And you saw that in the 1850s 
there was a valuation boom and 

863
00:51:55,800 --> 00:51:59,400
also there was a mining boom in 
the 1930s because the gold price

864
00:51:59,400 --> 00:52:02,920
went up a lot. 
So yeah, it's kind of the 

865
00:52:02,920 --> 00:52:05,800
opposite with Bitcoin, where 
it's so inert, it doesn't care 

866
00:52:05,800 --> 00:52:08,400
about the price at all. 
So it's just going to keep doing

867
00:52:08,400 --> 00:52:10,280
what it does. 
Very powerful. 

868
00:52:10,280 --> 00:52:12,640
Yeah, I agree It it's it sets it
apart. 

869
00:52:13,560 --> 00:52:16,120
Yeah. 
So from from like a 

870
00:52:16,120 --> 00:52:19,280
philosophical standpoint, how 
how do you look at like the 

871
00:52:19,280 --> 00:52:23,120
incentives in Bitcoin game 
theory you touched upon before 

872
00:52:23,120 --> 00:52:27,280
and like how that influences our
our behavior? 

873
00:52:30,080 --> 00:52:32,960
Oh, you mean, as with regards 
to, for example, time 

874
00:52:32,960 --> 00:52:35,480
preference? 
Yeah, exactly. 

875
00:52:35,480 --> 00:52:36,240
Like what? 
What? 

876
00:52:36,320 --> 00:52:38,120
How? 
How do you see like those 

877
00:52:38,120 --> 00:52:44,040
elements influence our our life?
I think the Austrians just have 

878
00:52:44,040 --> 00:52:46,640
fantastic methodology there 
because people tend to over 

879
00:52:46,640 --> 00:52:49,880
complicate things usually when 
they think about oh economic 

880
00:52:49,880 --> 00:52:53,680
laws and and how this influences
that and it's all very abstract 

881
00:52:53,680 --> 00:52:55,360
and maybe you need formulas and 
stuff. 

882
00:52:55,360 --> 00:53:01,600
But what the Austrians say is 
that human action has certain 

883
00:53:01,600 --> 00:53:05,480
laws and and incentives that 
work for the individual, create 

884
00:53:05,480 --> 00:53:08,680
effects on a global scale just 
because. 

885
00:53:09,600 --> 00:53:13,240
And, and so you can basically 
imagine situations that are 

886
00:53:13,240 --> 00:53:18,480
very, very small and easy to to 
put in your mind, like a 

887
00:53:18,480 --> 00:53:22,520
Robinson Cruz who's stranded on 
an island or just a family 

888
00:53:22,520 --> 00:53:25,560
living together in a house. 
And then you change one variable

889
00:53:25,560 --> 00:53:30,160
and you, you look what happens. 
So it's actually really accurate

890
00:53:30,160 --> 00:53:35,840
to say your story or my story. 
You know, how did Bitcoin change

891
00:53:35,840 --> 00:53:42,000
my life? 
Well, it allowed me to not to to

892
00:53:42,880 --> 00:53:47,840
to appreciate the value of 
saving my money a lot more than 

893
00:53:47,840 --> 00:53:50,880
when I was living in a Fiat 
world where my savings were 

894
00:53:50,880 --> 00:53:55,080
expressed in euros and they kept
lowering in value over time. 

895
00:53:56,040 --> 00:53:59,920
Because in Bitcoin, every every 
year on average it goes up 

896
00:54:00,000 --> 00:54:03,560
however much like 115% on 
average or something. 

897
00:54:04,120 --> 00:54:05,920
Yeah. 
So either you are very much 

898
00:54:05,920 --> 00:54:08,960
incentivized to wait, you just 
wait and wait and you cultivate 

899
00:54:08,960 --> 00:54:12,640
patients and and and and and 
there's so many implications 

900
00:54:12,640 --> 00:54:14,720
from that. 
A low time preference society is

901
00:54:14,720 --> 00:54:17,600
a society is a society that 
builds cathedrals that are built

902
00:54:17,600 --> 00:54:21,920
over 203 hundred years to low 
time preference Society is a 

903
00:54:21,920 --> 00:54:28,760
society that produces artists 
like Beethoven and Bach and and 

904
00:54:28,760 --> 00:54:32,840
and and and and. 
And there is a certain spiritual

905
00:54:32,840 --> 00:54:37,080
element as well I believe where 
where society tends to 

906
00:54:37,080 --> 00:54:41,240
appreciate things that are 
universal and eternal in in a in

907
00:54:41,240 --> 00:54:44,240
a more profound way than a 
society that is always trying to

908
00:54:44,240 --> 00:54:47,360
survive. 
Because tomorrow who knows, they

909
00:54:47,360 --> 00:54:49,160
might steal our all our money 
again. 

910
00:54:49,160 --> 00:54:53,160
They might do another stimulus 
that you saw if you talk to 

911
00:54:53,240 --> 00:54:57,800
business owners about COVID, it 
was so disruptive, you know, 

912
00:54:57,800 --> 00:55:01,560
even the stimulus event was 
disruptive because then you are 

913
00:55:01,560 --> 00:55:04,680
chasing the subsidies and you 
forget about your customers and 

914
00:55:04,680 --> 00:55:09,760
it it just it's so confusing and
and that's what Mises also says,

915
00:55:09,760 --> 00:55:13,960
is that interventionism makes 
economic calculations so 

916
00:55:13,960 --> 00:55:17,880
difficult, almost impossible. 
And the opposite is just a free 

917
00:55:17,880 --> 00:55:21,800
market with hard money that is 
actually when the economic 

918
00:55:21,800 --> 00:55:26,520
machine can does it does its 
best work and creates prosperity

919
00:55:26,520 --> 00:55:29,800
for for everybody. 
So yeah, I mean that's something

920
00:55:29,800 --> 00:55:32,160
to, you know, you can write 
books and books about it, but 

921
00:55:32,160 --> 00:55:36,240
the the core element is, is the 
time preference, change like it.

922
00:55:36,240 --> 00:55:40,360
It helps you breathe and and 
think long term. 

923
00:55:41,200 --> 00:55:44,160
Yeah, yeah, you said eternal. 
I like that. 

924
00:55:44,160 --> 00:55:47,040
You know, like the the. 
Then I think like Fiat money is 

925
00:55:47,040 --> 00:55:50,160
ephemeral, right? 
It's fading and everything you 

926
00:55:50,160 --> 00:55:53,880
do with it is fleeting and all 
the the the the time you spend 

927
00:55:53,880 --> 00:55:56,000
on it is fleeting. 
It's not stored, right. 

928
00:55:56,000 --> 00:56:00,200
Like I think, I think that's a. 
Well one thing for example that 

929
00:56:00,200 --> 00:56:03,120
I notice all the time now if I 
walk around as I see the 

930
00:56:03,120 --> 00:56:06,960
difference between like I went 
to a little sculpture park and 

931
00:56:07,360 --> 00:56:09,720
and so there were a few 
sculptures that were made out of

932
00:56:09,720 --> 00:56:16,920
stone and and others that were 
made out of like flimsy metal or

933
00:56:16,920 --> 00:56:19,720
not even that like some kind of 
other material. 

934
00:56:20,120 --> 00:56:22,960
And you could already see after 
it was 10 years old this park 

935
00:56:22,960 --> 00:56:25,800
and you could already see a a 
bunch of the sculptures are 

936
00:56:25,800 --> 00:56:30,360
starting to deteriorate. 
Just that apparently those 

937
00:56:30,360 --> 00:56:32,880
artists, I don't know if they 
didn't care or they didn't have 

938
00:56:32,880 --> 00:56:36,440
the money to actually, you know,
create art that would last, you 

939
00:56:36,440 --> 00:56:38,040
know, and. 
And yeah, I think you see it in,

940
00:56:38,560 --> 00:56:41,840
I'm sure, in Europe as well with
the difference between art that 

941
00:56:41,840 --> 00:56:46,800
was created in the 1800s that is
still beautiful today, and then 

942
00:56:47,240 --> 00:56:49,840
art that was put there 20 years 
ago that's already falling 

943
00:56:49,840 --> 00:56:51,240
apart. 
Yeah. 

944
00:56:52,440 --> 00:56:58,320
Sometimes I go to Belgium known 
to you, obviously, and then when

945
00:56:58,320 --> 00:57:03,000
I drive around sometimes I think
when was this nice, you know, 

946
00:57:03,000 --> 00:57:05,560
when this was made. 
But I, I in Belgium, I think, 

947
00:57:05,560 --> 00:57:08,320
like, I cannot really even see, 
like when something was made 

948
00:57:08,320 --> 00:57:09,480
right. 
But sometimes I think, like, 

949
00:57:09,480 --> 00:57:12,560
when was this nice, right? 
Is there no one who who drives 

950
00:57:12,560 --> 00:57:16,160
here and thinks like maybe maybe
we should upgrade this, right. 

951
00:57:16,160 --> 00:57:20,600
Or, you know, demolish it and 
put in something new or make it 

952
00:57:20,600 --> 00:57:24,040
better or whatever, right. 
Like it's just it's very out 

953
00:57:24,040 --> 00:57:26,840
there, I would say, right. 
And then of course there's 

954
00:57:26,840 --> 00:57:29,880
there's, there's places also in 
Belgium, you know, where there 

955
00:57:29,880 --> 00:57:34,560
are actual things from 23400 
years ago, I mean some something

956
00:57:34,560 --> 00:57:39,760
like Bruges is amazing, right? 
But yeah, that's it's so 

957
00:57:39,760 --> 00:57:44,640
interesting that it's kind of 
like quality over quantity or 

958
00:57:44,640 --> 00:57:47,880
something. 
Also, yeah, I mean it's also, 

959
00:57:47,880 --> 00:57:51,960
it's just who who gets to be 
powerful in a Fiat world. 

960
00:57:51,960 --> 00:57:56,080
It's people that have short time
preference and who who know how 

961
00:57:56,080 --> 00:57:59,760
to play the political game and 
how to how to be close to where 

962
00:57:59,760 --> 00:58:03,680
the money comes out where it's 
being produced and and that's 

963
00:58:03,720 --> 00:58:06,440
you know means you have to be 
around psychopaths and it means 

964
00:58:06,440 --> 00:58:09,080
you have to be in a very toxic 
environment. 

965
00:58:09,680 --> 00:58:11,640
So. 
So people that have low time 

966
00:58:11,640 --> 00:58:15,800
preference even in a Fiat world,
they will be more private, more 

967
00:58:15,800 --> 00:58:21,320
entrepreneurial away from 
politics and so yeah that it's 

968
00:58:21,920 --> 00:58:25,440
that's why the taxes like Milay 
says like they just there's no 

969
00:58:25,440 --> 00:58:30,400
limit to how much taxes 
socialists will will want it. 

970
00:58:30,400 --> 00:58:33,640
It's infinite. 
So that's why the tax pressure 

971
00:58:33,640 --> 00:58:35,680
in Belgium I believe it's 52% 
now. 

972
00:58:35,680 --> 00:58:41,000
It's like every dollar that's 
being produced is is more than 

973
00:58:41,000 --> 00:58:45,680
half of it is taxed just yeah. 
And so that's why there's no 

974
00:58:45,680 --> 00:58:48,400
money to maintain all the 
beautiful buildings and and 

975
00:58:48,400 --> 00:58:53,080
build new stuff. 
It's it's a, it's a tragedy. 

976
00:58:53,080 --> 00:58:54,760
People, people die from this 
stuff. 

977
00:58:54,760 --> 00:58:57,960
You know it because it also goes
into healthcare and all kinds of

978
00:58:57,960 --> 00:59:01,440
things. 
It's it's, well, that's one of 

979
00:59:01,440 --> 00:59:05,440
the things that economics taught
me is is to to see the 

980
00:59:05,440 --> 00:59:09,400
alternative world in your mind's
eye, to look at like you're 

981
00:59:09,400 --> 00:59:11,440
saying you're you know, driving 
through Belgium. 

982
00:59:11,440 --> 00:59:15,200
It's like what if there was no 
Fiat money 100 years ago and 

983
00:59:15,200 --> 00:59:18,520
they stayed on a gold standard 
or hard money somehow? 

984
00:59:18,880 --> 00:59:20,400
How would this country look 
like? 

985
00:59:20,520 --> 00:59:22,360
And it's it's would be night and
day. 

986
00:59:22,360 --> 00:59:26,440
You you cannot even imagine the 
the wealth and the beauty I 

987
00:59:26,440 --> 00:59:29,800
believe. 
Yeah, it's it's funny when 

988
00:59:29,800 --> 00:59:33,440
people say like, you know, if if
the whole purpose of Bitcoin is 

989
00:59:33,440 --> 00:59:36,960
to hold it, nothing will ever 
happen, you know? 

990
00:59:36,960 --> 00:59:38,600
And my answer to that is always 
no. 

991
00:59:38,600 --> 00:59:42,040
You get to live your life also 
together with other people. 

992
00:59:42,040 --> 00:59:44,960
It's not the lonely thing, but 
you get to live your life your 

993
00:59:44,960 --> 00:59:49,640
you get the freedom back that is
now also spiritually taken from 

994
00:59:49,640 --> 00:59:51,440
you, right? 
Like, how can you come up with a

995
00:59:51,440 --> 00:59:55,240
new cathedral? 
If you're worried about getting 

996
00:59:55,240 --> 00:59:56,840
dinner tonight? 
You know, like that. 

997
00:59:57,680 --> 01:00:00,360
Even if you're a stone Mason, 
you know you don't have time for

998
01:00:00,360 --> 01:00:01,440
that. 
Literally, yeah. 

999
01:00:01,440 --> 01:00:03,880
And. 
And we like to kind of, you 

1000
01:00:03,880 --> 01:00:08,960
know, poo poo or look down on on
centuries ago how people lived 

1001
01:00:08,960 --> 01:00:12,720
and everybody was dirt poor. 
And but in some ways, especially

1002
01:00:12,720 --> 01:00:16,280
up to the 1500s, there was more 
stability for people. 

1003
01:00:16,480 --> 01:00:19,360
If you think about the last 100 
years, we had two world wars. 

1004
01:00:19,360 --> 01:00:24,200
We had several drastic 
devaluations that happened. 

1005
01:00:26,080 --> 01:00:28,600
But like just look at the 
paintings, you know, like look 

1006
01:00:28,600 --> 01:00:32,920
at Bruegel and and and the 
Rembrandt and and France halls 

1007
01:00:32,920 --> 01:00:36,000
and all those people like that. 
That was in many ways a 

1008
01:00:36,000 --> 01:00:38,680
beautiful life that people had. 
It doesn't mean that it wasn't. 

1009
01:00:38,680 --> 01:00:42,960
It wasn't maybe as long as ours,
but I don't think it's, you 

1010
01:00:42,960 --> 01:00:46,560
know, I think it might be a 
little arrogant to just assume 

1011
01:00:46,560 --> 01:00:51,440
we have it better now in in a in
a kind of a social sense. 

1012
01:00:53,600 --> 01:00:57,000
Yeah, yeah, I agree. 
So I want to ask you two more 

1013
01:00:57,000 --> 01:01:01,760
things before before we wrap up 
about the global adoption and 

1014
01:01:01,760 --> 01:01:05,400
game theory. 
Do you have any thoughts on like

1015
01:01:05,400 --> 01:01:08,720
countries or regions that you 
think would have the greatest 

1016
01:01:08,720 --> 01:01:13,960
potential to to adopt Bitcoin or
contribute to to its 

1017
01:01:13,960 --> 01:01:16,400
development? 
Well, if you follow my tweets, 

1018
01:01:16,400 --> 01:01:18,960
you can probably already guess. 
I'm going to at least mention 

1019
01:01:19,040 --> 01:01:25,560
the Texas and Argentina I think 
I mean honestly I am more 

1020
01:01:25,640 --> 01:01:30,400
gradually more impressed by by 
El Salvador as well. 

1021
01:01:30,400 --> 01:01:34,320
Although I still don't know if I
understand the culture very 

1022
01:01:34,320 --> 01:01:37,600
well. 
I I just don't know how how 

1023
01:01:37,600 --> 01:01:42,760
sustainable these changes are 
and and how for example rule of 

1024
01:01:42,760 --> 01:01:47,880
law I think is very important 
and very, very difficult to to 

1025
01:01:47,880 --> 01:01:53,600
change once a certain system of 
of courts and and and and juries

1026
01:01:53,600 --> 01:01:58,080
and lawyers and once that's put 
in place it's very resistant to 

1027
01:01:58,080 --> 01:02:06,640
change and so yeah so so I'm I'm
I'm very bullish on on Latin 

1028
01:02:06,640 --> 01:02:10,360
America in general. 
I I although the Americas have 

1029
01:02:10,360 --> 01:02:14,200
the advantage that it's a it's a
continent of immigrants and 

1030
01:02:14,200 --> 01:02:16,000
Europe does not have that 
advantage. 

1031
01:02:16,640 --> 01:02:21,120
We we do have immigrants, but 
they were not bootstrapped. 

1032
01:02:21,120 --> 01:02:26,000
A lot of them have been 
attracted by giving subsidies 

1033
01:02:26,000 --> 01:02:28,440
and and welfare checks and those
kind of things. 

1034
01:02:28,440 --> 01:02:32,200
And that's a different type of 
person that you attract versus 

1035
01:02:32,480 --> 01:02:36,560
just saying you can come here 
and make something but we're not

1036
01:02:36,560 --> 01:02:40,120
going to give you any money. 
And that's what I think the 

1037
01:02:40,120 --> 01:02:41,280
Americas is. 
So. 

1038
01:02:41,280 --> 01:02:46,800
So I think Asia has the 
challenge of this consensus 

1039
01:02:46,800 --> 01:02:51,600
culture like they they like to 
agree on a lot of things and and

1040
01:02:51,600 --> 01:02:55,040
that can create to lead to a lot
of volatility in times of 

1041
01:02:55,120 --> 01:02:57,000
change. 
You know, if if there's a regime

1042
01:02:57,000 --> 01:03:00,640
change needed or there's a big 
technological revolution that 

1043
01:03:00,640 --> 01:03:05,480
changes a lot of variables, then
I think you have the risk of 

1044
01:03:05,480 --> 01:03:09,120
warfare and those kind of things
and and and populism. 

1045
01:03:09,800 --> 01:03:12,800
So yeah, I'm very, very bullish 
on the Americas. 

1046
01:03:12,800 --> 01:03:14,800
Of course, Canada is, is 
worrisome. 

1047
01:03:14,800 --> 01:03:18,920
I think the US is also tricky. 
You know, there's a lot of, a 

1048
01:03:20,080 --> 01:03:24,160
lot of collectivism there too. 
I think the dollar is there's if

1049
01:03:24,160 --> 01:03:26,400
you think about the federal 
government for example, 3 

1050
01:03:26,400 --> 01:03:28,720
million people are directly 
employed by the federal 

1051
01:03:28,720 --> 01:03:32,480
government, 15,000,000 
contractors apparently or 12 

1052
01:03:32,480 --> 01:03:35,240
million I'm not sure. 
So that's that's a lot of people

1053
01:03:35,240 --> 01:03:39,040
whose paychecks are dependent on
the value of the US dollar and 

1054
01:03:39,040 --> 01:03:42,680
people who could potentially get
very angry if if there is a 

1055
01:03:42,680 --> 01:03:45,280
change in in the the monetary 
system. 

1056
01:03:46,200 --> 01:03:47,880
So, yeah, that remains to be 
seen. 

1057
01:03:50,640 --> 01:03:54,440
But so and and in Europe, I 
think on the edges it'll be 

1058
01:03:54,440 --> 01:03:57,160
interesting. 
You know there's always little 

1059
01:03:57,160 --> 01:03:59,320
countries. 
You know of course it could be a

1060
01:03:59,320 --> 01:04:04,480
Switzerland or a Monaco or a who
knows maybe a Portugal. 

1061
01:04:04,480 --> 01:04:08,920
Like AI think that these figures
that we're now seeing like a 

1062
01:04:08,920 --> 01:04:12,760
Malay and Bukele, that is just 
the beginning. 

1063
01:04:12,760 --> 01:04:16,720
Like we are going to see more 
and more new political figures 

1064
01:04:16,720 --> 01:04:20,240
that embody the Bitcoin spirit 
in some way. 

1065
01:04:20,240 --> 01:04:23,080
And of course in some countries 
it'll be just like with the 

1066
01:04:23,080 --> 01:04:28,520
Reformation, you know some some 
people took the word Protestant 

1067
01:04:28,520 --> 01:04:30,920
and they made something crazy 
out of it. 

1068
01:04:30,920 --> 01:04:34,320
Like, you know I honestly maybe 
I'm people will be offended by 

1069
01:04:34,320 --> 01:04:37,760
this, but I think in in Germany 
for example, the Protestantism 

1070
01:04:37,760 --> 01:04:41,000
was pretty extreme there. 
So they kind of instead of 

1071
01:04:41,000 --> 01:04:44,400
saying oh we we we embrace 
freedom of religion. 

1072
01:04:44,400 --> 01:04:47,600
They say no, no, no, we have a 
new system and a new monopoly 

1073
01:04:47,600 --> 01:04:51,080
and this is how it is. 
So I definitely don't want to 

1074
01:04:51,080 --> 01:04:56,000
say a blank check for all the 
future presidents who are pro 

1075
01:04:56,000 --> 01:04:59,920
Bitcoin, like some of them are 
going to be crazy, but at least 

1076
01:05:00,200 --> 01:05:02,280
I there is going to be a Bitcoin
vote. 

1077
01:05:02,280 --> 01:05:04,560
I believe that that is going to 
shake things up. 

1078
01:05:06,400 --> 01:05:10,320
Yeah, well, and I think also 22 
episodes back, If you didn't see

1079
01:05:10,320 --> 01:05:12,480
it, check it out. 
I have Maya Parbu. 

1080
01:05:12,480 --> 01:05:16,160
She's going to be a presidential
candidate in Suriname in May 

1081
01:05:16,160 --> 01:05:19,440
2025. 
Again, like Africa as well. 

1082
01:05:19,440 --> 01:05:22,320
You know, Africa could make an 
enormous leap because they have 

1083
01:05:22,320 --> 01:05:25,320
been financially enslaved for 
such a long time. 

1084
01:05:26,240 --> 01:05:30,120
Yeah, a Serena is South America.
Oh wait, why am I? 

1085
01:05:31,240 --> 01:05:34,840
Sorry, I said Suriname above 
Brazil. 

1086
01:05:36,120 --> 01:05:39,480
See. 
Now wait, why am I so confused? 

1087
01:05:40,800 --> 01:05:44,680
I I that's that's very 
embarrassing because I on the 

1088
01:05:44,680 --> 01:05:47,080
study. 
Oh, you're right next to Guiana.

1089
01:05:47,520 --> 01:05:49,480
Yeah, yeah. 
Oh, I see. 

1090
01:05:49,960 --> 01:05:55,320
But we talked, yeah, I I talked 
about it with her and I said, 

1091
01:05:55,320 --> 01:05:59,160
you know, I think, I think you 
have more than a nation behind 

1092
01:05:59,160 --> 01:06:01,280
you, right. 
I think that is so interesting 

1093
01:06:01,560 --> 01:06:05,320
that that this you know, you you
you're probably known with the 

1094
01:06:05,320 --> 01:06:07,480
biology network state idea, 
right? 

1095
01:06:07,480 --> 01:06:09,880
You know Bitcoin is a network 
state in that sense. 

1096
01:06:09,880 --> 01:06:14,640
So anything that she would share
that is interesting, like it's 

1097
01:06:14,640 --> 01:06:18,280
going to be super amplified 
versus no, I don't know the 

1098
01:06:18,280 --> 01:06:23,160
random opponent that she will 
have, you know, that is totally 

1099
01:06:23,160 --> 01:06:26,080
not into Bitcoin. 
So I think that's gonna be just 

1100
01:06:26,080 --> 01:06:27,880
super interesting. 
Super. 

1101
01:06:28,400 --> 01:06:32,600
Similar to the the history of 
the United States, where the the

1102
01:06:32,680 --> 01:06:38,440
places that were friendly to the
crazy Dutchies who just wanted 

1103
01:06:38,440 --> 01:06:41,880
to trade, you know, and who 
maybe not because there were 

1104
01:06:41,880 --> 01:06:46,520
some very religious colonies in 
the early days, very, you know, 

1105
01:06:46,520 --> 01:06:51,080
very specific religious colonies
and those became less prosperous

1106
01:06:51,080 --> 01:06:55,680
than for example, New Amsterdam 
where it was just about trade 

1107
01:06:55,680 --> 01:06:58,760
and freedom. 
And so I think similarly in 

1108
01:06:58,760 --> 01:07:02,200
Latin America just remains to be
seen like wherever freedom is 

1109
01:07:02,200 --> 01:07:05,440
welcome, that's where the money 
and the the economic 

1110
01:07:05,440 --> 01:07:07,360
opportunities is going to flow 
towards. 

1111
01:07:07,840 --> 01:07:10,040
Yeah. 
And I mean, I do think there's 

1112
01:07:10,040 --> 01:07:13,320
an element too with energy where
where countries that have a lot 

1113
01:07:13,320 --> 01:07:17,680
of untapped stranded energy, 
they will of course love to get 

1114
01:07:17,680 --> 01:07:20,840
involved with mining. 
Yeah, I agree. 

1115
01:07:20,840 --> 01:07:24,360
I think Suriname takes a lot of 
boxes actually. 

1116
01:07:24,360 --> 01:07:28,360
Also with this energy part, but 
also I learned I thought there 

1117
01:07:28,360 --> 01:07:31,200
were more people, but it's only 
600,000 people, but the country 

1118
01:07:31,200 --> 01:07:34,440
is huge, right? 
So it's not that many people to 

1119
01:07:35,240 --> 01:07:37,000
convince. 
Actually, yeah, it's. 

1120
01:07:37,720 --> 01:07:40,600
Like Iceland is 300,000. 
Yeah, exactly. 

1121
01:07:40,600 --> 01:07:43,160
Yeah. 
So yeah, you can, you can. 

1122
01:07:43,320 --> 01:07:46,880
Like small countries can be 
surprisingly fast in changing 

1123
01:07:46,880 --> 01:07:48,720
things and and making things 
happen. 

1124
01:07:50,080 --> 01:07:52,400
By the way, I noticed that I was
confusing it with Senegal. 

1125
01:07:52,400 --> 01:07:57,160
That's why I was so. 
Oh yeah, so I think yeah, you 

1126
01:07:57,160 --> 01:08:00,120
you argued a lot. 
Also currently you know, Bitcoin

1127
01:08:00,120 --> 01:08:04,480
is very undervalued considering 
how you see it as like a long 

1128
01:08:04,480 --> 01:08:07,920
term store value. 
Where do you see Bitcoin going 

1129
01:08:07,920 --> 01:08:12,680
in the next 5-10 years in terms 
of price, if you want to say 

1130
01:08:12,680 --> 01:08:15,200
price, but like adoption, 
overall impact? 

1131
01:08:16,279 --> 01:08:21,840
Yeah, I think that this we are 
now in finally in the 1995 

1132
01:08:21,840 --> 01:08:26,240
moment compared to if you 
compare Bitcoin to the Internet 

1133
01:08:26,240 --> 01:08:33,200
adoption, 1995 Bitcoin Internet 
adoption was around 9% in the US

1134
01:08:33,800 --> 01:08:37,960
And I think that's about where 
Bitcoin is probably at least in 

1135
01:08:37,960 --> 01:08:42,080
in developing countries, but 
developed countries, but maybe 

1136
01:08:42,080 --> 01:08:46,560
even globally that that people 
are really starting to have some

1137
01:08:46,560 --> 01:08:49,319
exposure to Bitcoin. 
And so that means I think from 

1138
01:08:49,319 --> 01:08:51,520
here it will accelerate. 
There'll be more and more on 

1139
01:08:51,520 --> 01:08:55,399
ramps like the ETF is like that 
is like the Windows 1995 

1140
01:08:55,640 --> 01:08:58,720
operating system. 
It just, you know, just you just

1141
01:08:58,840 --> 01:09:04,760
push a button and you go online.
So I think this cycle is huge 

1142
01:09:04,920 --> 01:09:08,359
and even within this cycle, I 
think we could go above 

1143
01:09:08,359 --> 01:09:12,680
$200,000, we could go as high as
600,000. 

1144
01:09:14,000 --> 01:09:16,399
So that means for the next 2-3 
years basically. 

1145
01:09:16,720 --> 01:09:20,080
And then after I do think like I
said, I think governments feel 

1146
01:09:20,080 --> 01:09:22,720
very threatened and so there's 
going to be backlash. 

1147
01:09:23,920 --> 01:09:25,680
So things are going to get 
interesting. 

1148
01:09:26,640 --> 01:09:29,760
Maybe we'll we'll have countries
that try to make central banks 

1149
01:09:29,760 --> 01:09:32,800
of Bitcoin, they'll like take an
exchange and nationalize it or 

1150
01:09:32,800 --> 01:09:35,640
something like that. 
So that's why I always caution 

1151
01:09:35,640 --> 01:09:39,640
people to to try and store your 
own Bitcoin and not not just go 

1152
01:09:39,640 --> 01:09:42,680
ahead with these ETFs and stuff 
because that's the low hanging 

1153
01:09:42,680 --> 01:09:44,760
fruit. 
Like that's very easy to, that's

1154
01:09:44,760 --> 01:09:48,760
very easy to dominate. 
But yeah, very, I'm very, very 

1155
01:09:48,760 --> 01:09:52,240
bullish for the Bitcoin price. 
This is just the early, early 

1156
01:09:52,240 --> 01:09:54,360
days of a new bull market, I 
think. 

1157
01:09:55,120 --> 01:09:58,720
Yeah, I think what what you 
mentioned before, you know like 

1158
01:09:58,720 --> 01:10:05,600
we are in a one in 500 year 
paradigm shift and it's 

1159
01:10:05,600 --> 01:10:08,480
something I share a lot with 
people that the fact that we are

1160
01:10:08,560 --> 01:10:13,680
living in that moment is so mind
blowing actually that you just 

1161
01:10:13,680 --> 01:10:17,360
dismiss it right. 
But I think we should keep 

1162
01:10:17,360 --> 01:10:20,680
repeating that we are actually 
there and that you can 

1163
01:10:20,680 --> 01:10:24,080
participate. 
Although the finance guys have 

1164
01:10:24,080 --> 01:10:27,000
figured it out. 
You know, you can still, you can

1165
01:10:27,000 --> 01:10:31,200
still participate. 
And yeah, it's just it's going 

1166
01:10:31,200 --> 01:10:33,120
to be fascinating to see where 
it goes. 

1167
01:10:33,120 --> 01:10:35,920
And I think, you know, we have 
our seats in the stadium. 

1168
01:10:35,920 --> 01:10:37,280
This is kind of how I see it, 
right? 

1169
01:10:37,280 --> 01:10:39,600
Like we have the seats in the 
stadium and we're watching. 

1170
01:10:39,960 --> 01:10:43,480
And for me, it kind of became 
like entertaining because I know

1171
01:10:43,480 --> 01:10:46,920
what I know, right? 
And and there are some unknown 

1172
01:10:46,920 --> 01:10:50,480
unknowns, right. 
You never know what the 

1173
01:10:50,480 --> 01:10:53,200
government's could do, you know,
or the examples that you give. 

1174
01:10:53,200 --> 01:10:56,560
But but I know I know that I'm 
sitting and I'm sitting there 

1175
01:10:56,560 --> 01:11:01,200
solidly you know and it's just 
it's it's actually I'm totally 

1176
01:11:01,200 --> 01:11:03,960
captivated by it right. 
Like this is what I think about 

1177
01:11:03,960 --> 01:11:07,520
every every day and it's 
entertaining like I want to see 

1178
01:11:07,520 --> 01:11:11,640
this right and and like all the 
memes of you know the most 

1179
01:11:11,640 --> 01:11:15,040
entertaining outcome is the most
likely like I believe that you 

1180
01:11:15,080 --> 01:11:18,480
know like we're we're going to 
see that and and even when we 

1181
01:11:18,480 --> 01:11:21,400
have a draw down after this tool
run like there's it's going to 

1182
01:11:21,400 --> 01:11:24,720
be a bigger group of people that
understand what that is and it's

1183
01:11:24,720 --> 01:11:29,040
it's you know it's it's growing.
Yeah, it's just better 

1184
01:11:29,040 --> 01:11:30,800
technology. 
That's why it's going to get 

1185
01:11:30,800 --> 01:11:32,000
adopted. 
About the future. 

1186
01:11:32,240 --> 01:11:34,800
It's just better, yeah. 
Exactly. 

1187
01:11:35,160 --> 01:11:36,240
Yeah. 
Like do you want to stick with 

1188
01:11:36,240 --> 01:11:39,880
horses or you know swords 
instead of gunpowder like what 

1189
01:11:39,880 --> 01:11:42,240
are you talking about? 
And also that I think is a good 

1190
01:11:42,240 --> 01:11:47,560
way to put that, you know, one 
in 500 year paradigm thing in 

1191
01:11:47,560 --> 01:11:50,200
perspective. 
Like the I think the gunpowder 

1192
01:11:50,200 --> 01:11:54,920
example is great because you 
know, everyone understands that,

1193
01:11:54,920 --> 01:11:56,600
right. 
OK, so you have swords, I adopt 

1194
01:11:56,600 --> 01:11:58,680
gunpowder. 
What do you think is going to 

1195
01:11:58,680 --> 01:12:01,920
happen, you know and and like, 
yeah, well, I hope that triggers

1196
01:12:01,920 --> 01:12:04,200
enough people. 
I want to be mindful of your 

1197
01:12:04,200 --> 01:12:06,600
time, but I want to ask you my 
last question that I ask 

1198
01:12:06,600 --> 01:12:09,920
everyone and that's what's a 
core belief that you will never 

1199
01:12:09,920 --> 01:12:15,080
let go. 
Well well it's. 

1200
01:12:15,680 --> 01:12:18,920
I mean on the verge of the first
thing that came to mind is just 

1201
01:12:19,280 --> 01:12:21,240
believing that the truth is 
real. 

1202
01:12:21,240 --> 01:12:23,800
Like the truth is out there and 
we we can. 

1203
01:12:24,280 --> 01:12:26,160
It's like The X-Files. 
The truth is out there. 

1204
01:12:27,600 --> 01:12:31,560
But know that we, we can 
actually identify truth as human

1205
01:12:31,560 --> 01:12:36,480
beings and and if we we work at 
it, we can actually surprisingly

1206
01:12:36,480 --> 01:12:40,040
learn a lot of things about the 
world and about ourselves. 

1207
01:12:40,040 --> 01:12:46,000
And and that is to me really the
catalyst of so much optimism and

1208
01:12:46,000 --> 01:12:48,920
hope. 
Because it also means if the 

1209
01:12:48,920 --> 01:12:52,680
truth is real, then it's 
something universal and then we 

1210
01:12:52,680 --> 01:12:56,400
can all connect to that and then
connect to each other via that 

1211
01:12:56,400 --> 01:12:58,920
means. 
So we don't have to be isolated 

1212
01:12:58,920 --> 01:13:03,480
and living in our own delusions.
We can actually, yeah, just all 

1213
01:13:03,480 --> 01:13:06,160
be connected and and and and 
and. 

1214
01:13:06,160 --> 01:13:11,800
And collaborate and and and make
this into a wonderful existence 

1215
01:13:11,960 --> 01:13:13,560
that that was the first thing 
that came to mind. 

1216
01:13:15,160 --> 01:13:17,840
Off that, I think that's a 
perfect, perfect ending. 

1217
01:13:18,880 --> 01:13:21,480
Wait, before you close, can I 
just say I I think you're you're

1218
01:13:21,960 --> 01:13:23,800
a really great host. 
I think you asked great 

1219
01:13:23,800 --> 01:13:28,280
questions and it's very obvious 
that you you are very well 

1220
01:13:28,280 --> 01:13:34,960
versed in in the Bitcoin you 
know universe and and so I think

1221
01:13:34,960 --> 01:13:36,920
you do your listeners a great 
service. 

1222
01:13:37,120 --> 01:13:39,480
I'm I'm definitely going to 
check out some of your content. 

1223
01:13:40,600 --> 01:13:43,840
Thanks so much. 
Like that's I I don't think you 

1224
01:13:43,840 --> 01:13:46,280
know what that means for me, but
I think I really, really 

1225
01:13:46,280 --> 01:13:49,640
appreciate that. 
And yeah, man, I want to thank 

1226
01:13:49,640 --> 01:13:52,200
you for your time and maybe we 
can do this again in the future.

1227
01:13:52,680 --> 01:13:56,720
And yeah, let's stay in touch. 
I'll make sure to link to your 

1228
01:13:56,720 --> 01:13:58,760
profiles and stuff so people can
follow you. 

1229
01:13:59,160 --> 01:14:02,520
And Kevin, thanks again. 
My pleasure. 

1230
01:14:03,080 --> 01:14:05,840
I hope you enjoyed this episode.
If you did, it would be amazing 

1231
01:14:05,840 --> 01:14:08,680
if you could rate, review and 
subscribe on the podcast 

1232
01:14:08,680 --> 01:14:11,600
platform of your choice. 
It will help us educate more 

1233
01:14:11,600 --> 01:14:13,720
millennials on the importance of
Bitcoin. 

1234
01:14:13,960 --> 01:14:15,760
You can follow and connect with 
me on Twitter. 

1235
01:14:15,760 --> 01:14:20,360
I'm Brom K That's at BR AM K and
if you are or know someone who 

1236
01:14:20,360 --> 01:14:22,960
has an interesting perspective 
on Bitcoin that's worth sharing,

1237
01:14:22,960 --> 01:14:25,240
hit me up. 
I read and reply to every single

1238
01:14:25,240 --> 01:14:27,160
message. 
I appreciate your support and 

1239
01:14:27,160 --> 01:14:28,800
hope you'll be here for the next
episode. 

1240
01:14:29,120 --> 01:14:30,400
Thanks for listening. 
Bye.