It just takes a lot of time and effort to actually make good
art. Then like Bitcoin reintroduces
this into the society. So I'm actually hopeful that
Bitcoin will get us back onto this renaissance of art and
music because it gives you the this long term perspective to
actually be sure, OK, I can focus on my craft.
I have a little bit of money on the side which I know it's not
going to be inflated away. I can plan for the next 5 years.
Everyone quick thing before we start.
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Now let's dive into this episode.
All right, Max DeMarco, welcome to Bitcoin for Millennials.
Thanks for having me man, it's good to be here.
Yeah, well, good to see you again.
We met in real life now, now we're here.
So I think we'll have a fun, a fun jam.
You've been travelling all around.
I would definitely want to talk about that.
Of course, you are also attempting to live the Bitcoin
life. I would say, you know, sometimes
it works out, sometimes it doesn't.
So I think I think that's a fun topic to Gem about.
But yeah, I was thinking maybe maybe to start, you know, like
you are fully orange built right now.
You even got the orange, orange glasses on.
Yes. I wanted to ask you like, how
did you first become interested in Bitcoin or finance?
Yeah. So I was working in the music
industry before, before I was like Orange Build.
So even before I made videos, I actually wanted to become a
musician and like audio producer.
So I was working in that space for quite a while.
And then at some point there was this blockchain technology which
was marketed as revolutionary for the music industry.
So I was looking into it and I thought, Oh my God, the
blockchain is going to solve all of the problems the music
industry has. And then I was involved in
creating a basically a shit coin for the European Union.
It was a concept for the music industry to create, create one
coin, which is only usable in the music industry and which
then what was supposed to help musicians to actually earn a
living. And so I was on the business
side of that project. And while researching this, I
kind of at some point figured out that this actually doesn't
make sense and that Bitcoin is the only way or the only reason
for a blockchain. So that's how I basically got
Orange built. It took me a little bit longer
because I had no idea about finance, I had no idea about
money and only came towards the technology by thinking that the
new applications will be the thing, the killer app, so to
say. So then I dove down, learning
what money is, learning about the technology and so on, but
initially from the music industry and by by being
convinced that blockchain will actually make the music industry
a better place. Yeah, I love that the the the
killer app is money, right? And once you understand the
killer app is money, you also understand that, you know, all
the broken incentives that a lot of tokens, right, or systems try
to fix. Same for music industry, I would
say. I, I think, you know, I, I saw a
lot of crypto and web tree projects as well, right?
I I think the concept in the music industry, right, that
artists can sell tokens for their album, for example, and
share in the royalty and whatever.
Like conceptually it's all, you know, makes sense.
But yeah, once you realize that that is broken because, you
know, the entire chain of incentives in a creative
industry, which, you know, in this example is music, but you
could say art or whatever, you know, it's basically broken
then. Yeah, you, you slowly end up at
Bitcoin. I mean, yeah, I had a similar
experience when I looked at that.
And it's funny because like also the root cause is so deep
because you could even say that all the art, all the music and
everything is kind of corrupted by Fiat money.
And it's so hard to see this if you don't understand money.
It I, I had this problem in the music industry where I didn't
understand why people actually value good music anymore.
And so I worked for a major label and I was, I, I was the
guy it's called A and RI was the guy searching new music and then
actually developing it to, to make it successful.
And at some point basically the all industry pivoted into just
using influencers or using Tik tokers, putting them into a
studio and making shitty songs and actually just throwing money
on marketing to make the song workout and to recoup the money
that was invested. And I, I never understood why
this was the case until I understood money, because it's
just the cheap money which drives those wrongly set
incentives, which is not about actually creating good art like
it was in the 60s, seventies. And yeah, by getting orange
peeled, I actually understood why I had this this problem with
the music industry. And yeah, now that's why I think
it's so important to actually study money, because it touches
so many different aspects and can explain quite a lot, which
in the first instance you don't think that this is connected to
money. Yeah, yeah, I love that you
mentioned that. I would love to drill down on
that because it's kind of like I've talked about this before
more in like about like architecture or.
Yeah, I always use the fountain example, Like why is the traffic
fountain in Rome? That is just a beautiful thing,
right? And that is, it doesn't have to
be your taste, but you can agree that it's beautiful, right?
And nowadays I'm thinking like what?
What's, what is a beautiful fountain that we know that has
been built in the last 10 years or like a few months ago I was
in a building in Antwerp that was from 1552 or something.
And I was also thinking when, when was something built in the
last, I don't know, 40 years that will stand 500 years, you
know, like have that quality. And also when you look at the
like old ornaments and stuff on the building like that, like
it's just again, doesn't have to be your taste, but you know,
it's craftsmanship, right? Like, you know, it's beautiful.
And I think it's the same same with music.
But like how? And I like this path because it
goes pretty deep, pretty quick. But like, how would you take
people along that recognition, I would say, or how how did that
go for you? Like when, Where does that
click? So I mean, as you say, in music,
we have the same thing. It's kind of like all of these
big, big artists, like let's say even back to Bach, Mozart and
all of this kind of stuff. This is music which just it's
still being played around the world, right?
It's like it's the craftsmanship and the actual talent which
needed to get into building this craft was so immense that it
actually outlasted them for 500. I don't know how how many years,
but it's like it's like, if you think about it is it's insane
comparing this with somebody like, I don't know, Nicki Minaj,
for example, you know, who's highly successful and making a
lot of money. But I highly doubt that her
music is relevant within the next 5 to 10 years.
It's like, yeah, that she's going to probably produce new
songs, but it's just the cycle of appreciating this.
The music is is just so trend based right now.
It doesn't it's not about the quality anymore because quality
doesn't really help in the short term.
It's just about virality. And I think this virality which
is kind of introduced by social media and the algorithms, it
always has an impact on the music.
So if we look at different mediums, for example, that or
technologies, let's say technologies, because every
technology has an impact on the art and the craft.
So for example, every if you compare the classical music, all
of the songs or are like between 5 to 15 minutes, sometimes even
30 minutes and stuff like that. But today or most of the radio
songs are three minutes 30. And the only reason why that is,
is because the technology to put something into the radio was the
the vinyl, vinyl play, how do you call it the plates exactly?
Yeah, yeah. And the final words.
Yeah. Exactly.
You were not able to play longer songs than 3 minutes.
Thirty onto that, so it was just a technological technological
problem. So you could have even not even
put any bahhole Mozart on that. So This is why the musician
then, because this is how you made money.
Actually, the music changed as well by only producing or making
3 minutes thirty. And so we had this and then with
CDs this limitations kind of got a little bit lowered and we had
MP threes where this was a little bit it wasn't that much
of a problem anymore. But now we have streaming and
social media and all the algorithms which are new
technology which do exactly the same thing.
Whereas if you compare like Pink Floyd or even Queen or like all
of the old songs, they had like an intro, then at some point
it's like, did you have the chorus and then it's an outro at
the in between you have a different ripple parks.
But now because the attention span with social media is so low
and Spotify as well, Spotify counts a click or a song when
somebody listens more than 30 seconds.
So this is the incentive for an artist to make money by having
the 3030 seconds as cool as possible, let's say.
So this is when now the songs are not like they will spend 10
years ago. The songs now have all the
chorus and the referral at the 1st 30 seconds.
And then kind of the song starts.
And I think because of this, which is basically just also
about how do I make the most money in the short amount of
time the music changes. And I think it's, it's, it's,
it's OK in that sense because this is just the progress of
evolution. But by combining this with cheap
money where you can just pay marketing on like algorithms on
Google and so on, It kind of is like you can game the
appreciation of a song, which wasn't able to do before because
you needed to actually put in the proof of work to make a good
song. And now it's just you make it
viral, you pay tick tock, you pay on Facebook, and then you
get the get the same clicks. So it's kind of a deep rooted
problem and there's a lot of different trends interconnected
with that. But this is kind of how I would,
from a very high level view, explain it.
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their offering. Yeah, super interesting.
I'm thinking so, so many things have become so ephemeral, so
short lived, right. Like, and I think that's when we
talk about Bitcoin, we actually talk about the the low time
preference. So we do have like a view
towards the future and like a past towards the future, right.
And I think everything you just explained is more about like a
high time preference, like I need, I hit now, I need fans
now, etcetera. But you know, I think if you, I
wonder if you agree, but if I, if I think about if I would be
someone who made music, how amazing would it be that like
500 years after I died, people still listen to it, right?
Like that is that is a timeless creation that, that you made,
right? And that shows that over your
time, your lifetime or the trend at that time, you know, or
whatever, or or why ever people like boss made their music,
right? That doesn't really matter that
it still resonates in other times that are just constantly
changing, right? Like that achievement sounds way
more impressive than yeah, having the next TikTok hit,
right, Because it's really there.
There's more like one day hit type people now, I think then
and now I'm I sound really old, but like when I was 1620 years
ago, yeah, it it you had it also.
But now it's just way more like sometimes you hear a song and
they're like, oh, what what else did this person put out?
And then it's like two other songs and they just had a, they
had like a TikTok hit and and that was it.
Exactly. And it's like, it's almost like
this this low time preference, which is kind of required to
good make good art. It's kind of gone in the society
because you can amplify something and it can go viral.
You know, even there are like so many shitty songs which just got
viral because they're funny or whatever.
But I think this this skewed the perception of young people
especially that you can you just need to focus on gaming the
algorithm instead of actually making good art.
And it just takes a lot of time and effort to actually make good
art. And I think that as you said,
like Bitcoin reintroduces this into the society because I, I
started to understand this as well that I, you know, if I want
to make a good video, it might take me 6 months to work on it.
And if more like new skills. And I feel like in Bitcoin, the
artistry and all of the art which is happening goes back to
actually appreciating this low time preference.
So I'm actually hopeful that Bitcoin will get us back onto
this renaissance of art and music because it gives you the,
this long term perspective to actually be sure, OK, I can
focus on my craft. I have a little bit of money on
the side which I know it's not going to be inflated away.
I can plan for the next 5 years and say, OK, for the next 5
years. I just want to learn how to do
it. A nice fountain or something,
you know? Yes, yes, yeah.
I've talked about this a lot. 100% agree.
I kind of translate that to, you know, people have a high time
preference because I think inherently everyone feels or
knows that the future is uncertain, right?
Just very practical. You don't know how much time you
have in your life, but because the entire ability to save,
which is by the way, one of the three characteristics of money,
you know, it's just totally gone.
Like you can save more units, but you know, if, if each unit
gets devalued every year, then you, you are basically
increasing the uncertainty towards your future, right?
And Bitcoin brings that back to, I would say the normal
uncertainty or at least or, or, or maybe even lower than the
general uncertainty we have, right?
Because, you know, it cannot be debased.
And that gives you the time and space to try something or to.
Yeah. And then also try something big
like you said, like if you can create the time and space to try
something for five years, if you really try it and just do that
thing for five years, you're going to be one of the best in
the world at that. Thing.
In five years, right, That has just become increasingly more,
more difficult. And yeah, while you were
talking, I was thinking, I don't know if it's, I don't know who
that is, but a lot like Michelangelo, I think made these
marble statues also, right? And I saw an animation once
where you see like just a marble block and then chiseled from
that is I think his David statue.
How crazy is it that you can imagine that the statue in the
marble block, right? Then eventually also also just
get there like how much time and dedication that takes just to
make that for yourself. And then that stands the test of
time also, right? But.
And I think he was only 26 or 27 when he did that, which is just
amazing. But it kind of like now getting
a little bit away from the discussion.
But it's kind of like this thing where you say like if you really
focus on a craft and try to perfect it, you will get
somewhere. I don't know how it was back in
Michelangelo's times, but I could imagine we, we need
somebody to factor this. But I could imagine that like he
probably wasn't enrolled in a normal schooling system where
you're getting kind of a general overview of everything, but
you're not going to be good at anything because of this.
It's like, and this is kind of I made a video about homeschooling
where a lot of people say that this is kind of the positive
side of homeschooling, that if you have a kid who's actually
interested in something, they can actually already early on in
their life focus on this passion of theirs.
And I think they're similar with Bitcoin.
You know, if like if you're on a Bitcoin standard, you don't have
all of the other distractions of oh, what do I do with my money?
I think safety and said this if if you are a Barber or something
like this and you save it in in in Bitcoin, this will at some
point free the time for you to work for your with your passion.
That's like the Wright brothers on the gold standard.
That's how they actually discovered the plane, right,
because they had I think it was a bicycle shop or something that
they had and then then because you were able to save at some
point, they were able to reinvest into the passion, which
which was to figure out if the airplanes are can be a thing or
not. So I totally agree.
I think Bitcoin will hopefully lead us there.
It definitely did it to me because before that and then
like in the Fiat hamster wheel, I was never focused on actually
creating or making art. And now this is the only thing
I'm dedicating my life to. Yeah, it's funny how you know,
of course I talk to a lot of people, but I like the to
discover like the synchronicity in thoughts between people
because you just the last thing you said about the, you know,
kind of like the hamster wheel. Like last week, I tweeted.
When you adopt Bitcoin, you stop running the rat race and you
start walking your own path. Yes.
And, and I think it is, I mean, I've seen many examples.
You are a prime example. It is just really true.
And it's just, it's so funny because sometimes when when I
say stuff like this, I I think like, Oh yeah, that sounds too
good to me that that's what a snake oil salesman would say.
But if we want to make that practical, right?
Or if someone asks you like what is Bitcoin and why should I
care? Like what?
How can we make that a practical answer?
So not be like, oh, you're going to be rich and that's why you
have time and space. Like, is it what I said, like
the uncertainty towards the future or like how, how would
you say that? Or like how is it for you?
I mean, it's hard to describe it because it's for me, it's
something which nobody told me or something I needed to
experience it myself. And I think for me, if I come,
if I would boil it down, it's kind of by adopting Bitcoin and
by living on a Bitcoin standard and so on.
I had something to work towards in the future because this was
the first time that I was actually, OK, I can have a
better life in the future when I just do what I do the best and
save it in Bitcoin. And to be honest, there was a,
there was a certain financial freedom aspect of it where I was
like, OK, if I can stack this ads in maybe 4 to 8 years, it's
going to maybe give me a certain financial freedom to actually
focus on it. But it was really this, this
understanding that the you that I'm responsible for my own
future and I can make it better by focusing on something.
Integrating it with Bitcoin, building a business and then
from there, like all of the other learnings came and I know
this still sounds very abstract because, but it, I think it is
abstract. It's like so hard to put into
words when you don't recognize it, but I think it's just this
this natural thing I, I never met a bitcoiner who was in
Bitcoin longer than four years, but his and said his life was
worse off. So I think it's kind of a
combination of actually putting in the work of, of at least
being in the space or like saving Bitcoin for four years
that you are able to get up, get some financial freedom, but also
get fucked again, because it's also very important.
And then from there you can actually look into your life,
what your actual values are. But it's super abstract.
I don't I don't have a better answer this.
Yeah, I think that is why the goal of any person talking about
Bitcoin, you know, me doing this podcast, you doing what you do,
it's kind of like to invite people in with our own
experience. You know, we don't have to
convince other people. I don't think that works, by the
way, Right. So it's more about can we share
what it did for us And yeah, by having, you know, in my case,
trying to to create as many different touch points coming
from as many, you know, different possible people.
Yeah, just hopefully touch someone somewhere where they
think like, oh, OK, that's, that sounds relevant to me or I, I
can relate to that, you know, and then then you kind of like
get onto your own path of this, this studying and just, yeah,
well, getting hopefully where where where we went, we ended
up. I feel it's, it's a big blessing
and a big reward that we get to experience that and and
hopefully inspire some people along the way.
So, yeah, no, I love that you share it like that, I think.
Yeah, I think that's just it. Like you cannot go further than
that. Yeah, you have to go that go for
yourself. It's kind of the same like
trying to explain why going to the gym feels good afterwards.
It's like, because it's like, why working out as hard and so
on. And for people who never went to
the gym, they might not understand why the gym is
actually good or doing sports in general.
But once you went to the gym and experienced it, you're like, Oh
yeah, you don't even need to explain it to me.
I totally get it. And I think it's similar with
this where every Bitcoiners like, yeah, it's hard to put
into words, just you need to try it somehow.
But yeah, it's like, I can also like not convince somebody to do
go to the gym. You're going to feel so much
better. It needs to be an intrinsic
motivation to actually make the change within the person.
So. And I know you, you spoke about
this before, you also shared me, shared, shared this with me.
But like, how, how did adopting Bitcoin like influence your
thinking about other topics like health and food, you know,
family values stuff, stuff like that?
Like how how do we go from what we just talked about to do it
Well, even even more influence in in these other topics.
Yeah. It's it's kind of wild because
what I said with that, you have the perspective of future by
just having a money, which is kind of more future oriented
than justified money. This has an impact on every
aspect of my life. It's like I, I'm so much more
healthy. I have now podcast, which is
actually all about health. It's called proof of health.
And I haven't been that healthy before that it was I was living
my life here and there and didn't really care about it.
But once you shift your perspective onto the future and
actually think about, okay, I want to have a good life, I want
to have a healthy life, then it's also like, okay, the
decisions I do today always have an impact on my future.
So this changed massively for me where I was like, OK, my health,
I'm way more conscious about what I eat.
I will go to the gym, what I drink.
But it's also like family values, for example, like
family, I grew up in Europe and all my friends are kind of more,
they don't care that much about family anymore.
I feel like in Western societies, the importance of
family is decreasing slowly but surely.
And but Bitcoin showed me again that this is actually one of the
most important things in life to build a healthy functioning
family. And this this like massively
changed for me also. Like what does it mean to be
actually a man in this world? What, what do I need to do to
become the the man that I would want like to actually raise my
kids or like care for my wife, care for my friends and so on.
And all of this is kind of connected to Bitcoin because
with this, to adopt Bitcoin to all of this that happened, what
we said like 10 minutes ago, you kind of need to change your word
perspective as well and like be humble enough to actually
appreciate that the you did. I didn't understand how the
world works before I discovered Bitcoin.
And then from there I asked all of the other questions, OK,
maybe health. I was, for example, I was, it
was a vegetarian and I was like, maybe I don't really know why
I'm a vegetarian and need to change this and so on.
And so it's like this questioning a lot of different
aspects of the life, which then led me to a way healthier and
way happier life. And I'm assuming the same thing
happened for you as well. I think, I think what is behind
that or how you get to like these other topics is when, when
you research this well, the question of what is money and
you realize that no one ever told you.
And then you realize that your concept of money is not what
money is. That when you put money in the
bank, it's not yours anymore. Like all these things, right?
That once you go down that path and accept that what you thought
was true, the way you were operating was based, well, that
what you thought was true was not true.
That you were operating on something that you didn't
understand and that you were chasing something, right.
Money or reward for your job or your, your venture or whatever.
And you know, in my case, spending your finite energy and
time for reward that can infinitely be created.
And that's like the dumbest thing that you can do.
That's pretty eye opening, at least for me.
I, I think that's also been the case with other people that once
you recognize that this mechanism of, hey, I believe
certain things or I think, you know, think certain things are
true or operate in a certain way, I behave in a certain way.
Why do I actually do that? Why?
Why were you a vegetarian? I was I yeah, exactly.
It's like I didn't even question it.
I I was just like everybody at my friend from fostering it.
OK. It's healthy.
Exactly this, right? And then you realize, well,
maybe it's not OK, well, I should see what the other side
of this is, right? Why?
Why wouldn't it be? Or why is, well, we had some
nice steaks. Why are steaks better?
Why should we still eat meat? You know, stuff like that, that
once you recognize that there's a very big thing that you had no
clue about, you know, the money and that there is this other
thing that is provably, verifiably better to that.
OK, what are all the topics beneath money or next to money
that I also have no clue about, right.
And I think that's how you get to these, these other topics in
a, in a sense. And I think one important thing
is also that by actually understanding Bitcoin, you have
so many people telling you that you don't know what it really is
about. Everybody was against you.
And I think this gives you a confidence that you can actually
figure stuff out yourself, even though everybody else thinks
that you're wrong. And I think by having this, then
you also are able to actually venture into those other topics,
for example, health, which like everybody says meat is bad.
But if you understand that, I can understand it for myself and
actually verify and get my own opinion on it.
And like even all the health officials and all the health
governments in the world say meat is bad, you should eat less
of it by having figured out money yourself or Bitcoin
yourself, you are also, I think, most likely to figure out some
other topics for yourself because you're not that much
influenced anymore by official narratives and actually start
thinking for yourself. Yeah, yeah, I always, I describe
this as like, and it's also with the other topics, but like
adopting and holding Bitcoin is kind of like this, this
psychological journey where you're constantly challenged
with the question, can I still trust myself?
You know, something like that. And once you get a continuous
confirmation of the fact that yes, you can, I think that's
what kind of like instills this motivation or trust in in
yourself to then explore like the other topics.
I think I think this is the most important part of growing up to
actually start trusting yourself and to learn that you can trust
yourself. And even with like smaller
things like your gut feeling when you meet people or gut
feelings for new projects or some of them I've like for me at
least, this was is still one of the most important journeys that
I'm just like, OK, maybe I just knew all along already without
having the facts. My my gut was just like,
probably here is off. Exactly.
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things. One, everyone is winging it,
right? Like no one has it figured out.
Like once you realize that you kind of like move towards that
what you said. But it's also, I mean all the
all these doubts and belief in certain constructs and stuff.
That's all mind and ego talk, you know, And once you challenge
your mind and get to the conclusion that what your mind
constructed for you was false, you know, that's also, I think,
yeah, just an interesting signal that there's a there's a
difference between, well, the gut feeling and what the mind
constructs, which is usually aimed at protecting you from
doing something dangerous. Yeah.
You definitely need to learn how to navigate it because sometimes
it's like, you know, your rationality actually makes
sense. Like maybe you don't jump from
the tree cause. Yeah, well, dangerous danger,
but exactly. Yeah, that's true.
So you just mentioned, you know, some things take time to make.
You just released I think a month ago or something a very
cool. The video I saw it had like a
quarter million, almost like 300K views at least just on
YouTube. I mean, you published on other
channels as well about like your road to your first Muay Thai
fight, which I mean I I will link to your to your YouTube
channel. So everyone should check that
out. I think it was really dope so.
Thanks. Congrats on that.
Like very, very cool to see. And it starts with I'm not a
fighter. I don't have experience how I've
seen Baghdads. That's fun, but I think it
touches upon what we are talking about.
It's like this required a lot of discipline, right?
Like, I mean, you went to, I don't want to spoil too much,
right? But you went to gyms and you
were like, I'm a, I'm a super noob and I want to fight my
first fight. Like do you want to teach me?
And some people said no. And then eventually you found a
place where you could train, right?
And you know, eventually this just asked for a lot of
discipline from you and yeah, how do you compare like this
discipline? And maybe you answered it
already, right? But like, how do you compare
like this discipline to getting to a Muay Thai fight with
discipline that you need to like hold Bitcoin, adopt Bitcoin, you
know, and to actually like be able to continuously like trust
yourself and your judgement on. Yeah, like that's The funny
thing about the Muay Thai thing. It's basically, it was also way
deeper down the Bitcoin rabbit hole that I did this because it
was basically my, my motivation was what is the hardest thing
that I could could imagine that I could achieve.
That was like what I was thinking and like, OK, what is
the the thing when I say this now that it sounds so crazy that
I'm just laughing at myself and thinking, man, Max, you're
fucking crazy. And for me, this was to actually
go into the ring fight another man because I never had any
boxing experience. And as you say in the video, you
can actually see that I have no idea what I'm doing.
And so, so this was kind of like I wanted to challenge myself a
little bit in like what I can actually achieve by being
disciplined. And I think that, yeah, maybe I
think you get it. When did you see the video?
But it's it's incredibly hard to do this every day to go to the
gym and not not quit or just go out because there were days
where like I was injured, I was not feeling good, the weather
was shitty. So there were so many ways of
like excusing myself to not do it.
But this is kind of like the Bitcoin thinking again, where
was like to achieve something which is worth it.
It takes a lot of time and a lot of effort.
And I would say this is what I said before with if like with
like Bakamoto or all the people, they, they appreciated this.
And I think Bitcoin also showed me this that I know, OK, if I
want to achieve this goal, if I want to actually learn the skill
of fighting, I need to go through those hard times and
like I appreciate even those hard times.
And you asked me for the analogy to Bitcoin.
I think it's the same thing because once you're like even
the four year period of holding Bitcoin takes a a lot of
discipline to not selling, to not believing other people who
say, oh, it's just a bubble. But you kind of need to believe
in yourself that you figured out that Bitcoin is all right, that
the technology is fine, that you trusted and all that.
By going then through the, the shitty times of Bitcoin, you're
actually at the position where you can't really appreciate the,
the Bitcoin because then it's like, Oh yeah, I know that I
wasn't lucky, but I made it through all of those different
timings. And it's the same with Muay
Thai. It's like I the only person who
actually knows how hard it was to go there is myself.
I tried to portray it in the video, but nobody will ever
understand the pain and all of that.
It's still just a video. And I think this is like the
analogy with like the same with Bitcoin.
Like the only way you you can only know how good it feels to
now be in the bull market because you know how hard the
last couple of years were and you can't explain it.
And this is kind of the just the the proof of work thing where
it's like, OK to learn a skill, you need to put in the time,
whatever it is even holding Bitcoin.
Yeah, I, I think This is why I love the more like philosophical
or almost spiritual angle of Bitcoin because what you just
said, I mean that is eventually what it's all about, right?
I mean, if we go back to the examples of the, of the, the,
the high time preference music making and going viral and I
need fans, etcetera. That is not about, you know, now
I really sound like an older guy, but like about that's more
about the destination than the journey, right?
And what you describe is the journey.
The reward is really in the journey and anything that comes
after that, like whether you win or lose the the fight, right, or
whether the video does well or not, like that is all after the
reward that you already had. Yeah.
You know, and when, when we're talking about this, I have to
think, yeah, last week I really binged like a lot of Rick Rubin
stuff, like him talking about creativity and him talking
about, you know, you have to make the best thing that you can
make, you know, And if you're happy with that result, that is
all that you can achieve. And anything after that is not
up to you, right? Like any, any reward after that
weather something becomes very well known or not or expensive
when you have art or whatever like that is not something to
identify with, you know? And yeah, but.
But but society is kind of like teaching us this is all it is
about. Like it's only about the clicks.
It's only about how many people follow you.
Whereas like it kind of like I, I love recruitment.
Like he's one of my biggest inspirations of like for
creating and taught me a lot about especially how to
disconnect from the rewards of clicks and so on, but keeps you
just doing what you do. And at some point the universe,
if the universe wants to give you the rewards, it will come,
you know. But as you say, like as long as
you try to make every, every output that you create better
than the one before, I think that's all you need to do.
And it's the same with with Mutaev.
Every day I try to train a little bit harder, a little bit
better, and it's up. Like this is the journey that
life is about. As you said, it's not about
winning or losing the fight, it is about actually going through
those hard times and actually learning how to cope with them.
Yeah, yeah, I'm also thinking that, well, it goes even deeper.
I, I am reading, I'm really into like all the consciousness
stuff, like how does the universe work and stuff like
that. And I'm, I'm reading a book that
I shared before a lot that I can show you.
It's called Stalking the Wild Pendulum.
OK. By a guy named Itzhak bent off.
And you know, when people talk about manifestation is really
interesting, right? Like manifestation is not like I
want to be rich and then tomorrow there's like a million
you have a million in Bitcoin or whatever, right?
Like that's not how it works. It's more about literally what
you describe, right? Like OK, what's the craziest
thing I can think of? Right?
Like a fought is a metaphysical thing.
What's the craziest thing I can think of?
OK, that's doing a Muay Thai fight.
And by doing the action, you're manifesting it in the real
world. You actually did the fight,
right? Like that.
That is my understanding of manifestation.
Same as what Rick Rubin talks about.
Like it's the music. All the ideas are like for
anyone listening, anything you see around you was manifested
because it was an idea before and now you see it in the in the
physical world, right? But what this guy talks about in
the book is that you can force manifestation, right?
Like you can get like a piece of clay and you can create
something of it, but nothing will ever be, I don't want to
say recognized or something, but it's kind of like when you when
you believe that like the universal consciousness is
basically like an infinite love like that.
If that is where we come from, he basically says the only
things that are worthy to exist are things that are manifested
with love. So you can force song and put it
on TikTok and stuff like that. But if it's not made with love,
it won't stand the 500 years, right?
It won't live for for 1000 years.
And so the only person that can recognize, as you said, if you
put in the love is you like you are the only person that can put
in the love into the creation of whatever you are creating, you
know? And I, I think that's just
really cool that if you realize that, yeah, then it's only, you
are the only. Opponents are the only player in
whatever you're trying to do. Exactly.
And I think it's also that's why you see a lot of big artists who
are not happy because they don't put in the the love that they
should. And it's kind of like, I think
that that's also why a lot of imposter syndrome is happening
like in the big, big artists. And it's kind of like, I think a
lot of them are kind of miserable because it's just like
about making the money and being becoming bigger.
And it's not about actually creating the craft itself.
And it's like, as you say, I think if you yourself are happy
with what you're doing and know that you put the biggest love
into this, then this will automatically make you happy
because even if like the hards, the time's going to be hard to
to actually achieve something. But but this is like the the
self rewarding aspect of this path when you put it to love.
Yeah, yeah. And I think we are getting back
to that, like to that kind of like, you know, if you make
something with love, it is really authentic because you
made it just for yourself. And people appreciate seeing
that authenticity because I think that is what is actually
the inspiration. She's like, oh, he's really
doing his own thing or she is doing her own thing, right?
Like that is what people, I think eventually admire, that
you can do that, that they can do that, that anyone can
basically do that, right? But you have to let go of all
the, I don't know, validation of other people or something like
that. Because if, if you understand
everyone is winging it, then well, then that is really it.
And you can just do whatever you want.
And as I say, like actually everybody in this life is the
main player of this game. It's just like you can, you can
choose your next quest. What it is.
For me, it was, for example, Muay Thai.
And I knew if I want to do this, this would mean that for the
next six months I would let go through the hardest months of my
life. So, you know, it's kind of like
you choose a quest and if you really want to achieve it, you
also need to play by the rules of that quest.
So this is the only way how you achieve it.
And like as you say, you can, you can put the quest into
whatever you want. If you say, oh, I want to earn
$1,000,000 in the next five years or whatever, then there
are certain rules which mean, OK, you're not like you need to
work on the weekends, you need to learn the scale, which is
highly, highly monetizable and so on.
It's kind of like actually life. It can be simple.
It's not easy, but it's simple. You just, you choose a like
quest, be it building a family, whatever.
And then you look at, OK, what are the rules to actually be
able to achieve this? And then you need to play by
those rules and yeah, not fuck up on the on the way to getting
there. Yeah, this dies into what we
talked about. I think about challenging your
mind before is like, OK, I want this, but I don't have it.
So I have a problem. How do I get here?
And you play the game or the quest, whatever you decided
within that framework, right? So that could be the time you
set for yourself or the condition that you're in or I
don't know, maybe you were prone to getting injured, you know,
whatever. Like you don't really know you
only you only figured it out once you start, right?
But there's there's not it's not for free.
Like you have to do it right And, and there will be parts of
the framework that you didn't expect or that you really hate,
right? And I think that is the fact
that you accept it. Yeah, that it's there.
It's probably more than half of the work in that in that sense.
And it's also like often you don't know why this is happening
within the framework that the rule book is clear.
You need to go through this, let's say more time.
You like you need to experience so much pain on this period, but
in between you're like, oh, fuck this shit.
I don't I want to go out of the framework.
This is not this can't be right. This is like this.
Is me wrong? Exactly.
It's like, it's like, like for example, what happened for me
the last first three weeks, because when you kick, you like
you have your foot on the on the floor and you always need to do
this movement with your, with your foot.
So I had like big, big holes in my foot and I was like oh fuck,
shit, blah, blah, blah. But then I talked to other like
professional fighters and also and everyone is like, you're
probably in the first 3 weeks, right?
Yeah, everybody has it has this. And it's like when you go like
when you've played the the framework already, then you know
why this is there. But when you, while you go
through it, you don't really, you don't have the perception
yet. But as I say, you just need to
accept that this is there and the the reasoning you will
understand it further down the road.
You don't even need to understand it yet.
I love that because the last example I wanted to give about
this is, well, this podcast for me, like I started, I had no
experience with podcasting. Well, I tried a podcast once.
I recorded 10 episodes and never released any.
So I actually failed at a first, the first attempt.
But when I was thinking about, OK, I'm going to do a podcast,
you know, there's some sort of niche, a big enough niche, you
know, millennials, OK. And then kind of like my
business brain went on and I was thinking about, oh, how big in
the audience, this and that. And then I thought like, no, no,
no, no, like it has to be more simple because I know that
because if I want to create something, there will be
problems along the way. I have to make it as simple as
possible. And I saw a Mr. Beast video
where he, he said, you know, that his biggest tip was make
100 things, 100 episodes, 100 videos, whatever.
And then after 100 you will figure out if you like it, if
other people like it, if they want to follow you, like, how
does YouTube work? How does the recording work?
Like all these things you will figure out along the way.
And I thought, you know, I'm, I'm, I am pretty much, I'm a,
I'm a, I'm a perfectionist in that sense.
So I thought I, I understand that this making it that
simplistic would be very beneficial for me.
So I just was like, OK, I need to make a hundred, a hundred, a
hundred, a hundred. That's that's just it.
And I didn't want to do every recording And sometimes I was
tired or whatever, or I didn't have enough time to prep or what
I did just different things within the framework of making
100 exactly episodes, right? On the day that I released the
100, I signed for a job in Bitcoin, I signed for a sponsor
for the entire 2025. I released a paper that had like
50,000 views. I don't know, just like all the,
all these things that really came together in the week of the
100 that I could have never expected in the beginning.
But also I think wouldn't be there if I would have made it
more complicated. It was already complicated
enough. We're just trying to achieve one
thing right and keep it fun to experience that.
It's just it works like that. Yeah, keep it simple.
That's that's it. And it's like it's the same
thing. It's it's always going to be
simple, but it's not easy because those simple things to
actually record 100 podcasts is it sounds just just 100
podcasts, but it's not easy because you have to have the
discipline to record, you need to find guests and so on.
So I think that's with a lot of those with a lot of different
things in life with like in my like I did a carnivore video
where I tried to be carnivore or I was carnivore for a couple of
months. It's also quite simple.
You just eat meat. But this is like one of the
hardest things. Exactly yesterday.
I mean, this ties back into, I mean, this is a Bitcoin podcast,
of course, but the idea of Bitcoin is very simplistic,
right? The eventual output of Bitcoin,
like one Bitcoin is one Bitcoin forever.
That is my promise that is secured by the strongest
computer network in the world and over 20,000 nodes that keep,
you know, a copy of this Ledger to to maintain the ultimate
truth of this time chain of this Ledger.
And therefore it is the best constant store of value asset to
ever exist. OK.
It took a little bit more than simple sentences, but like that
is that is the promise. But understanding that and going
through this whole arc of what is money and what are the
influences, all these things we talked about, that is not easy.
That is definitely not not easy. And so I love these concepts and
I love that with different topics you get back to the same
kind of like first principle type, thinking about well,
achieving goals or, or understanding certain topics.
Yeah, yeah, I love that. So you, you started this
podcast, Proof of health, great name.
What made you dedicate then more time to Bitcoin?
Why? Why start another podcast?
Why? Why do that?
Yeah, it's, it's for me, basically I, I'm also on the
journey of figuring out what is healthy and what is not healthy.
And I'm definitely not somebody who knows everything.
So I just want to talk to people who know things better than I do
and figure out for myself what I want to incorporate for my life.
So like basically all my, my videos were or mostly all my
videos are about like health trends or health topics like
sleeping on the floor, the carnivore diet, even more time.
You could say it's, it's connected to health and I just
felt like I need, I wanted to go even further down the rabbit
hole in a lot of those topics. And it's like it needs to go
deeper down than just me trying stuff.
So this is kind of why I'm inviting a lot of experts now.
Experts is a shitty word, but people who who dedicated a long
period of their of their life towards one topic to learn from
them. And because this is my personal
journey, I'm super interested in this.
I also just wanted to take the people along with me to actually
figure out what a healthy life actually looks like because I
haven't figured it out yet. I want to figure it out together
with all the people out there who are interested to do the
same thing. So that's why I was like, also,
as I said, there are so many podcasts on there, but I also
like what regroup and says about this where it's like, although
there's so many things out there already, nobody can ever create
the same thing as you can because you have your own
perspective on life. You have your own
predispositions about learning and so on.
And that's why I was also like, yeah, why don't I just start a
podcast to try it out? I mean, I'm 4 episodes in right
now. I'm like 96 episodes behind you,
you know? But it's, it's already so much
fun. And I know that I actually enjoy
it a lot. So this is the most important
thing. And I don't care about the
clicks or whatever it is because I just know I need to go through
this journey here again to learn what it means to be a good
podcaster, to learn how to have a good conversation.
And hopefully with it, I I will reach the 100 episodes more, get
be happy with what I created, yeah.
Yeah, I love that man. I think it's very fun to see
you. I mean, I followed you before,
before I met you. I think it's just a really cool.
Also when you know, again, check out Max's YouTube channel.
But it's just it's very diverse and I love that.
Like you see that you are good at creating, but that you are
also on a journey to figure out what is my angle, right?
Like what, how do I show myself? And I I really love like there's
a real arc, I think in your content in that sense.
So I think that's really cool. But it's, it's totally true.
Like I, I don't think I yet figured 100% out what it is
because I'm I'm still in the figuring out phase.
Is it? I did now a lot of documentaries
then I did like even daily vlogs for a certain time.
And it's like I'm still in the process of figuring out what
works best for me, what I'm most enjoying about.
But it's it's like I see myself or my my life as my biggest
project. And I want to create.
I see myself as a creator. And therefore I just venture
into those different things. And I'm going to fail a lot of
times. But hopefully at some point I'm
going to have figured out, as you say, what this big life
project of mine will look like. Yeah.
I think one of your coolest documentaries is also the one on
Monster where Jack Dorsey is also in, I think.
I think that one was almost really well made.
So that's one of my favorites, to be honest.
Thanks. Well, you traveled a lot all
over the world and you had a lot of conversations with a lot of
different people about Bitcoin. What have been like your biggest
learnings or takeaways and where did you find them?
I think one of my biggest learnings is that I stopped
pushing Bitcoin onto people. So I stopped orange peeling them
completely in a certain degree. Like doing it directly by like
pushing them. It's more like an indirect way
of like positioning myself in a way that if they want to know
something about it, they know. OK, Max is somebody who knows
about Bitcoin, I can ask him. But there was a period of my
life where I was very toxic about it and it was like, you
don't get Bitcoin, you need Bitcoin and this is the way.
But by travelling a lot, it's kind of like I got an
appreciation that so many people are at different stages on their
life. For some, like Bitcoin doesn't
even make sense right now. It might might have other things
to solve before they're able to actually stack Bitcoin or save
in Bitcoin. And so one of my biggest
learnings is to always meet the people where they are.
And I think as Bitcoiners, we kind of need to have some
empathy for people that there are people out there who are not
ready for Bitcoin yet and they are still like dependent on
other things and they'll or like figuring out other things.
And then Bitcoin is kind of down the road.
So although it's a very humbling thing to see if you're like in
poorer countries and so on, those people don't have time.
Like I've been in Africa and there's like in Bitcoin and Kasi
there's that people trying to orange pill a lot of people
there and they do the right thing and like people actually
use it. But we Bitcoiners, I think we
tend to talk a lot about the ideal world, but the world is so
hyper complex and people are at different stages.
So I think this is one of my biggest learnings that the best
thing is doing something like you, you know, like if people
want to know more, they have all of the resources to actually
dive down the rapture. But for me personally I stopped
people pushing down the rabbit hole because this might even
have the opposite effect where they are dead like resenting
Bitcoin and not looking at it for the next 5 years.
I had a funny thought. I agree.
I had a funny thought. I think it's also why, you know,
we talked about crypto in the beginning, but that's also why I
think crypto is such a immense distraction, right?
It's like, I mean, Bitcoin is running at the forefront of just
general knowledge of people and crypto even runs, you know,
further than that, like, oh, we are quicker, faster or whatever,
you know, and all these tokens and blah, blah, blah.
It's just we need to pay more attention to the problem.
Like why, why does Bitcoin exist?
Why does it have a reason to exist, right?
How can we help people that are surviving every month on a few
$100? You know, how how can we even
help them because they don't have the time and space to even
think about this, right. So yeah, I'm just thinking like
that that is what we should talk about more rather than just
factually saying like this is how Bitcoin works and that's why
you have to adopt it. Like I don't think that works
with with any good quality product or service in in
general. Exactly.
Yeah, you need to, you need. That's also why I started doing
the videos because I felt like a lot of people talk too much
about the details and about the facts.
But Bitcoin is like can also be a highly emotional thing, which
like which when I think we Bitcoiners need to focus more
about why Bitcoin matters, not how it matters.
Like, because we always say like, oh, this just mathematical
equation does this and the hardware wallet does this.
But if we focus more on like this storytelling part of
Bitcoin where it's like, OK, by actually adopting Bitcoin, this
family was able to leave their home country without being taxed
into oblivion or something like this.
Then people understand it. Then it's like, you know,
there's a story people can understand.
But if you just say, oh, there's this, there's one Bitcoin,
there's one Bitcoin, it's that there's no inflation.
So it is, I think it's like I had troubles when you ask me
what Bitcoin did to me to actually put it into like words
because it's so abstract, but but telling a story about it.
I could tell my life story about how I was before until the Muay
Thai fight. You know, everybody will see the
change that I did and I don't need to put it into words.
But it's like the story of Max Max's life the last years.
And then they will see the impact which Bitcoin had on me
personally, and then might understand that if they adopted
as well, that they will actually have an impact on the Mets.
And I think that's why the podcasts, as you said, this is
what you're trying to do. And This is why I think it's so
important to actually make more content around this, figure out
how to tell the right stories, how to tell good podcasting
stories. And yeah, because this is
ultimately how people, I think, will understand.
Yeah, yeah, I agree. I just asked you before, before
we, we started recording your age, but you are like the
youngest millennial possible, right?
Like 9096. You're, you're of the last year
of the millennials you just mentioned, you know, like you
are not trying to orange bill anyone like directly anymore.
But how do you experience talking with other millennials
when, you know, I mean, for me, I don't find it difficult, but I
think it's interesting. Almost all the topics that
millennials talk about eventually are connected, you
know, or are downstream of the money.
So, you know, Bitcoin does come up in a lot of conversations
that I'm involved in because it's just it touches all the
topics that, you know, I think millennials discuss in this
stage of their life. But yeah, like how how do you
experience that when when you talk to fellow millennial?
Like I think most of them are now open to it because they they
hurt Bitcoin so often. It now it's like the third,
maybe the 4th, maybe the fifth touch point.
And a lot of people actually start to get more, more okay
with accepting Bitcoin as an asset or I don't think they
still see it as money, but they are at least like, OK, there's
something to it. It's still not that maybe I
should look into this. So I think there's a is a, an
appreciation to it to a certain degree.
And I think a lot of millennials also just have this inherent
feeling of something is wrong. They don't really know what is
wrong, but they know that it feels off and they know that
they won't, it won't be able to buy a house in in 10 years.
They are like, it's just like, again, this, this gut feeling
with a lot, which a lot of my friends have.
And I think over the last years, people are kind of are more open
to talk about this. Whereas like, you know, a couple
of years back when I was mentioning Bitcoins, like
Bitcoin, it was like, what the fuck are you even talking about?
It's you're a scammer. And it's, it kind of changed, I
think like the public perception, especially with
Trump endorsing it and like more and more public companies
actually adopting it as well. It's just, it's just a natural
way like Bitcoin to certain degrees.
Also going through the hero journey where it's like it's
playing the framework of becoming a money, like we said.
And part of becoming a money, there's probably also the part
where a lot of people need to deny it as a money and say it's
a scam. And it's just the same, same
thing we personally are doing, the Bitcoin network is doing now
as well. Yeah, yeah, I agree.
And you did a lot of experiments.
Again, if people check your videos, you will see, you know,
like living on Bitcoin while travelling.
Also like how do you look at Bitcoin like adoption of Bitcoin
payments and what do you think is needed for broader adoption
or to accelerate that? I think, I think the UX is
getting there now like we like now it's pretty easy to spend up
a wallet, even though it's custodial.
And I think we're now at a point where the UX is kind of
comparable to traditional banking apps even better just
because they they're like offline in a certain time or
like it's not re real time and you have like the weekends where
it takes time. So what's if Bitcoin is getting
there? I think there's still a lot of
education happening because a lot of people just don't know
why they should accept Bitcoin. It's like this, this, it's still
very abstract to them if they have a functioning Visa card and
so on. So it's like, there's still
this. I think we can just solve it by
telling more stories around it, and more stories will then
actually resonate with the people.
But I think the technology is going into the right direction.
Now. We just need to actually put
this into the minds of the people by actually showing how
it works. And so this is also how we said
that. This is why I made my videos
where it's like, can I actually travel the world by using
Bitcoin? This is, I think, just way more
powerful than any advertisement or any article or something.
If they actually see, OK, this guy can fly from Thailand to
Madeira and then go to Madeira and eat a steak with Brahm and
paying with Bitcoin for it, then they will understand, OK, it's
actually possible to do this already.
So I think we're in a good trajectory and it's just like
the same challenges everybody needs to overcome, Bitcoin needs
to overcome it with due course. This is going to happen
naturally. Yeah.
So when do you think we'll be living on a Bitcoin standard?
How long does that take? Probably, like still 10 to 20
years, yeah. I think 10 is pretty fast.
Yeah, 10 would be fast. Yeah, that's probably even too
far. Let's say 21 years.
That's a good number. 21 years, All right, Yeah, I want to ask
you my last question and I ask everyone the same question,
which is what is a core belief that you will never let go.
Core belief that I would never let go is people overestimate
what's possible in the the short term, but underestimate what's
possible in the long. And the long term is more
rewarding and the more happier way of living your life.
Awesome. Well, thanks for sharing and
thanks for this awesome conversation.
I love the I really love this. I think we went in an
interesting direction that I haven't gone into that much.
I think we went pretty deep on that.
So I I really appreciate you and good to see you again bro.
Same here brother and thanks for having me and see you around the
world at some point. 100% awesome, have a good one.
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