1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:03,960 Every single person that I met, including myself, starts with 2 00:00:04,040 --> 00:00:06,960 this is a scam and a Ponzi scheme and then you discover 3 00:00:06,960 --> 00:00:08,840 that it's not. And that's the journey. 4 00:00:09,040 --> 00:00:14,760 And Bitcoin really does sit uniquely in its own place as you 5 00:00:14,760 --> 00:00:18,120 know, digital hard sound money because everything is changing. 6 00:00:18,120 --> 00:00:22,440 People are out flowing into gold and Bitcoin because gold and 7 00:00:22,440 --> 00:00:25,240 Bitcoin, you know what it is. The rules don't change. 8 00:00:25,760 --> 00:00:29,080 But Bitcoin even has less things that change. 9 00:00:29,160 --> 00:00:33,360 Most people have IOU gold. There are way more claims on 10 00:00:33,360 --> 00:00:39,520 gold than there is gold. Very excited you're here. 11 00:00:39,520 --> 00:00:44,840 You are a true OG and I think one of the few people I'd say 12 00:00:44,840 --> 00:00:47,360 that can really explain Bitcoin eloquently. 13 00:00:47,360 --> 00:00:52,560 And I reached out to you after I listened to to what I think is a 14 00:00:52,560 --> 00:00:55,920 legendary Bitcoin explanation during a discussion you had with 15 00:00:56,000 --> 00:01:00,280 with Peter Schiff back in February, which, you know, some 16 00:01:00,280 --> 00:01:03,360 people might know Peter Schiff. He's like a well known gold bug 17 00:01:03,360 --> 00:01:06,120 and he, but he tweets about Bitcoin a lot, which is, which 18 00:01:06,120 --> 00:01:09,480 is interesting, you know. And so today I was thinking it 19 00:01:09,480 --> 00:01:13,280 would be interesting for my audience and and also your 20 00:01:13,280 --> 00:01:17,360 audience to kind of like dive deeper into Bitcoin as a 21 00:01:17,360 --> 00:01:21,200 paradigm shift that it is and how it helps us like reshape 22 00:01:21,200 --> 00:01:23,240 value and and money in the world. 23 00:01:23,240 --> 00:01:26,640 And and kind of like go down to anti Bitcoin arguments with you 24 00:01:26,640 --> 00:01:29,200 and see if we can unpack them and help people better 25 00:01:29,200 --> 00:01:31,800 understand Bitcoin. OK, let's do it. 26 00:01:32,600 --> 00:01:35,880 I do think with Peter Schiff, there's an element of 'cause I 27 00:01:35,880 --> 00:01:39,400 remember like back in, I think he was really early. 28 00:01:39,440 --> 00:01:44,600 Like so I got in in 2011, he was around in 2012. 29 00:01:45,400 --> 00:01:48,480 And there's an element of he committed to a decision early, 30 00:01:49,600 --> 00:01:52,920 and then he built this whole marketing strategy out of 31 00:01:53,880 --> 00:01:57,000 sticking to that decision. So I do think he actually knows 32 00:01:57,000 --> 00:02:00,240 the difference. I think there was an element of 33 00:02:01,160 --> 00:02:04,120 as the Bitcoin community got bigger, he ended up in this 34 00:02:04,120 --> 00:02:08,000 really weird situation where he thought rather than capitulating 35 00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:12,040 and joining the community, I'll do this anti Bitcoin thing. 36 00:02:12,040 --> 00:02:15,920 So I get all the marketing and I'll just stick to my original 37 00:02:16,280 --> 00:02:18,360 investment thesis and business model. 38 00:02:19,000 --> 00:02:22,200 And he just never adjusted it and just ended up as the last 39 00:02:22,200 --> 00:02:26,880 man standing against Bitcoin. You know in in in somebody that 40 00:02:26,880 --> 00:02:30,920 gets all the reasons for Bitcoin but pretends that Bitcoin 41 00:02:30,920 --> 00:02:36,160 doesn't solve them. I might as well be, but that's 42 00:02:36,160 --> 00:02:38,800 an interesting shtick for 13 years, don't you think? 43 00:02:40,000 --> 00:02:43,880 Well, I mean, I mean, if you're a an advisor and he is in the 44 00:02:43,880 --> 00:02:47,000 wealth management business, you know, he's got his, he gets his 45 00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:49,880 theses right. He bets against the Fed, but 46 00:02:49,880 --> 00:02:51,880 betting against the Fed cost you a lot of money. 47 00:02:51,880 --> 00:02:53,680 You end up in gold for many years. 48 00:02:54,040 --> 00:02:56,800 You end up in foreign stocks and foreign currencies. 49 00:02:57,160 --> 00:02:59,800 And then eventually you are right, which is he is right 50 00:02:59,800 --> 00:03:02,520 today. But then you get that one moment 51 00:03:02,520 --> 00:03:05,200 and you've missed everything that could have happened in 52 00:03:05,200 --> 00:03:10,040 between and so many people are in that and and Bitcoin was the 53 00:03:10,040 --> 00:03:13,160 highest performing asset in history and a lot of people 54 00:03:13,160 --> 00:03:17,560 listen to him and so didn't buy and they he must get a lot of, 55 00:03:17,920 --> 00:03:19,880 you know, hate from that really I. 56 00:03:19,920 --> 00:03:20,920 I would agree. Yeah. 57 00:03:20,920 --> 00:03:24,640 It's it's an interesting figure in, in in this space, to to say 58 00:03:24,640 --> 00:03:27,080 the least. But that I mean, when I hear 59 00:03:27,080 --> 00:03:32,560 him, you know, debate you, he does share his anti Bitcoin 60 00:03:32,560 --> 00:03:35,440 arguments with quite some conviction, I'd say. 61 00:03:35,920 --> 00:03:39,520 And again, yeah, I think how how you are you your rebuttals 62 00:03:39,520 --> 00:03:43,040 against it were actually, I think very clear and rational, 63 00:03:43,040 --> 00:03:46,560 just as I've experienced explaining Bitcoin right, like 64 00:03:46,640 --> 00:03:51,080 it just is a certain thing and there are certain, you know, 65 00:03:51,080 --> 00:03:55,040 characteristics and also values that emanate from it just being 66 00:03:55,040 --> 00:03:57,240 the thing it is. And yeah, you can recognize them 67 00:03:57,240 --> 00:03:59,120 or not. You know, I think it's, it's 68 00:03:59,120 --> 00:04:03,280 more that's why people I think also say that Bitcoin is an ego, 69 00:04:03,480 --> 00:04:08,200 ego test to that degree, right? Like, are you able to, you know, 70 00:04:08,400 --> 00:04:11,360 see this different truth and kind of compare it to what you 71 00:04:11,360 --> 00:04:13,360 think is the truth? And if you, if you can, you 72 00:04:13,360 --> 00:04:17,600 know, you can obviously have a benefit from the asymmetric 73 00:04:17,600 --> 00:04:20,079 opportunity that Bitcoin is, but it's not for everyone in that 74 00:04:20,079 --> 00:04:22,120 sense. Yeah, and every single person 75 00:04:22,120 --> 00:04:26,160 that I met, including myself, starts with this is a scam and a 76 00:04:26,160 --> 00:04:29,280 Ponzi scheme, and then you discover that it's not, and 77 00:04:29,280 --> 00:04:31,480 that's the journey. All right, perfect. 78 00:04:32,480 --> 00:04:36,880 Yeah, let's let's just dive into the first argument that that or, 79 00:04:36,880 --> 00:04:38,360 or the topic that you talked about. 80 00:04:38,360 --> 00:04:42,120 So my idea here is that I have the anti Bitcoin argument, I 81 00:04:42,120 --> 00:04:44,160 have your rebuttal from the discussion. 82 00:04:44,160 --> 00:04:46,640 I also link to the discussion in the description so people can 83 00:04:46,640 --> 00:04:48,840 check it out for themselves. And then I'll have a question 84 00:04:48,840 --> 00:04:50,880 for you to kind of unpack that further. 85 00:04:51,320 --> 00:04:54,600 So the first anti Bitcoin argument is Bitcoin isn't unique 86 00:04:54,840 --> 00:04:57,720 as there are other cryptocurrencies that can also 87 00:04:57,720 --> 00:05:00,600 be self custodied and transferred globally, often 88 00:05:00,600 --> 00:05:03,080 faster, cheaper and more anonymously. 89 00:05:03,640 --> 00:05:07,440 And your rebuttal was Bitcoin uniquely combines secure self 90 00:05:07,440 --> 00:05:11,720 custody, global transferability and a reliable fixed monetary 91 00:05:11,720 --> 00:05:14,840 policy protected by the largest decentralized proof of work 92 00:05:14,960 --> 00:05:17,920 computer network in the world. No other cryptocurrency 93 00:05:17,920 --> 00:05:19,800 replicates these combined strengths. 94 00:05:20,120 --> 00:05:23,480 So my question for you is what specifically makes bitcoins 95 00:05:23,480 --> 00:05:26,960 fixed supply and the proof of work network uniquely resilient 96 00:05:26,960 --> 00:05:29,280 compared to other cryptocurrencies? 97 00:05:30,040 --> 00:05:32,080 Well, we have this concept in Bitcoin. 98 00:05:32,680 --> 00:05:35,000 In the early days, no one cares about us. 99 00:05:35,000 --> 00:05:37,080 Like we were such a niche community. 100 00:05:37,400 --> 00:05:39,480 You know, we were a bunch of cypher punks. 101 00:05:40,120 --> 00:05:43,280 We were trying to figure out how to do transactions outside the 102 00:05:43,280 --> 00:05:47,440 banking system. And, you know, before I got 103 00:05:47,440 --> 00:05:51,520 involved, the very, very early, early people, you know, had this 104 00:05:51,680 --> 00:05:56,560 Immaculate Conception, which is that Satoshi and the cypherpunk 105 00:05:56,560 --> 00:05:58,920 mailing list. Some people got involved with 106 00:05:58,920 --> 00:06:00,640 it. You know, you had some early 107 00:06:00,640 --> 00:06:03,800 miners like Hal Finney and various other early Bitcoin 108 00:06:03,800 --> 00:06:08,680 community members, and no one believed it would succeed. 109 00:06:08,680 --> 00:06:12,560 There were previous attempts, You know, they were trying to 110 00:06:12,560 --> 00:06:17,040 make it work, code it together, but there was only one person. 111 00:06:17,040 --> 00:06:19,040 There were a couple of people that were willing to mine. 112 00:06:19,040 --> 00:06:23,120 And so they started mining. And as the market continued, 113 00:06:23,120 --> 00:06:24,600 more and more people started mining. 114 00:06:24,600 --> 00:06:27,920 And then they transferred a few transactions. 115 00:06:28,760 --> 00:06:32,520 And then people started to decide, well, how do we create a 116 00:06:32,520 --> 00:06:34,840 market price for people that want to buy and sell? 117 00:06:35,680 --> 00:06:39,880 And so more and more people were mining and it went on. 118 00:06:39,880 --> 00:06:41,800 People were doing it from their laptops. 119 00:06:42,480 --> 00:06:46,080 And then as the network got more popular, you know, it is built 120 00:06:46,080 --> 00:06:48,840 into the protocol that the more people that are mining, the more 121 00:06:48,840 --> 00:06:52,120 difficult it is to mine, which means you have to consume more 122 00:06:52,120 --> 00:06:55,080 electricity, which is why it's called proof of work, because 123 00:06:55,080 --> 00:06:57,280 you have to prove that you're doing the work. 124 00:06:57,280 --> 00:07:01,560 And the more people that are contributing to proving that 125 00:07:01,560 --> 00:07:06,000 they're doing the work, the more difficult it gets to, you know, 126 00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:10,960 receive a, a block. And so eventually so many people 127 00:07:10,960 --> 00:07:13,360 were doing it that people decided, well, why can't I 128 00:07:13,360 --> 00:07:15,880 compete with everyone else and create a graphics card? 129 00:07:16,520 --> 00:07:20,320 So they then started doing it with GPUs, which is, you know, 130 00:07:20,320 --> 00:07:24,280 for more intense gaming types of console consoles. 131 00:07:25,240 --> 00:07:29,720 And then eventually it hit a stage where as the, the 132 00:07:29,960 --> 00:07:34,120 ecosystem grew, people started to speculate on the prices. 133 00:07:34,120 --> 00:07:36,440 People started to use it in the dark web. 134 00:07:37,080 --> 00:07:39,520 People started to use it for online gaming. 135 00:07:40,280 --> 00:07:43,760 And then people started slowly to recognize that they could, 136 00:07:44,160 --> 00:07:47,960 you know, own their own money, spend their own money, and the 137 00:07:47,960 --> 00:07:51,280 money supply doesn't change. And so over time, it went up in 138 00:07:51,280 --> 00:07:53,520 value and it was very, very volatile. 139 00:07:54,400 --> 00:07:56,960 And so more and more exchanges were created. 140 00:07:56,960 --> 00:08:01,480 The ecosystem just grew and grew and grew very organically until 141 00:08:01,480 --> 00:08:04,280 eventually it hit the stage where the price of Bitcoin was 142 00:08:04,280 --> 00:08:08,560 worth so much that, you know, a group of people in China said, 143 00:08:08,560 --> 00:08:12,920 let's plug some, you know, some semiconductor chips from Taiwan 144 00:08:13,200 --> 00:08:17,680 and manufacture a special machine, an ASIC and let's plug 145 00:08:17,680 --> 00:08:20,400 it into the cheapest form of electricity in China. 146 00:08:21,200 --> 00:08:24,160 And let's see if we can mine these things and, and out 147 00:08:24,160 --> 00:08:27,400 compete all the GP US. And then they decided, well, 148 00:08:27,400 --> 00:08:28,880 let's create an industry out of it. 149 00:08:28,880 --> 00:08:30,760 There were more people that want to mine as well. 150 00:08:31,200 --> 00:08:34,240 And so as the price went up organically, as we went through 151 00:08:34,240 --> 00:08:37,799 more halving events, more people started to mine and we just 152 00:08:37,799 --> 00:08:41,520 bootstrapped through this Immaculate Conception where 153 00:08:41,520 --> 00:08:45,800 Satoshi, you know, I believe that Satoshi is no longer with 154 00:08:45,800 --> 00:08:48,320 us. So they can't move their coins, 155 00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:51,280 but it doesn't really matter anyway because they never 156 00:08:51,280 --> 00:08:54,080 actually move their coins. And it would only, you know, 157 00:08:54,640 --> 00:08:57,440 they mined all those coins. The the work was done. 158 00:08:57,720 --> 00:09:01,160 It wasn't pre mined. It wasn't, you know, done 159 00:09:01,160 --> 00:09:05,320 connected to a character Satoshi when some of the early 160 00:09:05,320 --> 00:09:09,000 developers were invited to speak at ACIA conference around 161 00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:12,480 Bitcoin, Satoshi decided to leave the product the project. 162 00:09:13,400 --> 00:09:17,240 You know, when Julian Assange decided the banks won't let me 163 00:09:17,240 --> 00:09:21,840 run WikiLeaks, decentralized media, can I use Bitcoin? 164 00:09:21,840 --> 00:09:24,880 And you know, it just organically went through this 165 00:09:25,440 --> 00:09:28,280 this thing and, and in the end, nobody controlled it. 166 00:09:29,080 --> 00:09:32,040 There was no one dominant miner. There were mining pools that 167 00:09:32,040 --> 00:09:35,440 were set up and it just went more and more decentralized. 168 00:09:35,480 --> 00:09:39,320 And so everybody that joined it didn't have an unfair advantage. 169 00:09:40,040 --> 00:09:41,880 Somebody may have been involved earlier. 170 00:09:41,880 --> 00:09:45,320 So that and and kept it. Some were involved really early 171 00:09:45,320 --> 00:09:50,120 and sold it to somebody else. It was, I would say, Austrian 172 00:09:50,120 --> 00:09:54,000 economics on a blockchain, a pure free market that had an 173 00:09:54,000 --> 00:09:56,120 Immaculate Conception, fair launch. 174 00:09:56,520 --> 00:10:00,240 And ever since then, we've had probably at this stage 22 175 00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:05,360 million attempts at creating any type of some competing proof of 176 00:10:05,360 --> 00:10:10,000 work, some other consensus models and a million different 177 00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:14,040 iterations are cheaper, faster, better, and they all end up more 178 00:10:14,200 --> 00:10:17,440 centralized. They compromise something in 179 00:10:17,440 --> 00:10:21,320 order to achieve cheaper, faster, better, and none of them 180 00:10:21,320 --> 00:10:25,120 end up achieving the properties of Bitcoin, which is kind of 181 00:10:25,120 --> 00:10:29,120 like a network effect. The size of the Internet and 182 00:10:29,120 --> 00:10:33,800 trying to get everybody to rebuild on top of a new Internet 183 00:10:34,320 --> 00:10:38,120 when no one can create a better version and get the network 184 00:10:38,120 --> 00:10:42,880 effect that Bitcoin has now. Bitcoin custody is evolving and 185 00:10:42,880 --> 00:10:46,360 on Ramp is leading this change with multi institution custody 186 00:10:46,640 --> 00:10:48,400 eliminating single points of failure. 187 00:10:48,760 --> 00:10:52,080 Instead of relying on one institution on ramp secures your 188 00:10:52,080 --> 00:10:55,280 Bitcoin in a cold storage multi sig Volt backed by three 189 00:10:55,280 --> 00:10:58,560 independent custodians where no single party can move your funds 190 00:10:58,560 --> 00:11:01,560 alone, providing an unprecedented level of security. 191 00:11:01,840 --> 00:11:05,240 Your assets are protected by a 100 million Lloyds of London 192 00:11:05,240 --> 00:11:08,560 insurance policy, with all transactions fully auditable on 193 00:11:08,560 --> 00:11:11,280 chain and only executed at your direct. 194 00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:15,600 This means complete transparency and control over your assets at 195 00:11:15,600 --> 00:11:18,120 all time. Beyond Custody on RAM provides 196 00:11:18,120 --> 00:11:21,760 comprehensive Bitcoin services that include trading, lending, 197 00:11:21,760 --> 00:11:25,120 inheritance, planning and Iras. You can view them as your 198 00:11:25,120 --> 00:11:28,280 private Bitcoin banking partner tailored to your wealth 199 00:11:28,280 --> 00:11:31,200 preservation goals. Whether you're new to Bitcoin or 200 00:11:31,200 --> 00:11:34,680 an experienced holder, Onramp's approach helps you secure your 201 00:11:34,680 --> 00:11:38,080 generational wealth with unmatched security and Peace of 202 00:11:38,080 --> 00:11:39,600 Mind. You can sign up at 203 00:11:39,600 --> 00:11:44,080 onrampbitcoin.com and use codebrum that's BR AM to receive 204 00:11:44,080 --> 00:11:47,520 $150.00 in Bitcoin after your first deposit. 205 00:11:48,040 --> 00:11:50,240 If you first want to learn more, you can also book a free 206 00:11:50,240 --> 00:11:53,120 consultation via their website to speak with one of their 207 00:11:53,120 --> 00:11:56,360 Bitcoin custody experts. Tell them you came to me and 208 00:11:56,440 --> 00:11:57,960 they'll take extra good care of you. 209 00:11:59,880 --> 00:12:02,400 Bitcoin is financial sovereignty, so why compromise 210 00:12:02,400 --> 00:12:05,520 when you need liquidity? Meet Debify, the Bitcoin backed 211 00:12:05,520 --> 00:12:08,520 lending platform made by Bitcoiners for bitcoiners. 212 00:12:08,560 --> 00:12:11,240 Debify connects you to institutional grade liquidity 213 00:12:11,240 --> 00:12:14,880 and allows you to borrow Fiat or stable coins all while keeping 214 00:12:14,880 --> 00:12:19,360 your Bitcoin 100% under your control with a non custodial. 3 215 00:12:19,360 --> 00:12:21,840 out of four multi sig escrow solution. 216 00:12:21,920 --> 00:12:24,560 Get competitive rates from a global marketplace of 217 00:12:24,560 --> 00:12:28,040 institutional grade lenders with loan terms that you choose from 218 00:12:28,040 --> 00:12:30,720 one month up to to a year. There are no hidden fees and 219 00:12:30,720 --> 00:12:33,760 there is no rehypothecation. Just pure Bitcoin aligned 220 00:12:33,760 --> 00:12:37,000 lending with the highest level of transparency and security. 221 00:12:37,120 --> 00:12:39,440 Are you ready to unlock liquidity without ever selling a 222 00:12:39,440 --> 00:12:42,120 single set? Go to debify.com/brom. 223 00:12:42,360 --> 00:12:45,880 That's Bram to check out their current lending offers. 224 00:12:46,000 --> 00:12:49,960 That's debify.com/brom. Yeah, I love that. 225 00:12:50,160 --> 00:12:55,600 It's actually 37 million crypto tokens are out there now, like a 226 00:12:55,600 --> 00:12:57,680 million a month are are getting at it. 227 00:12:57,680 --> 00:13:01,040 I had a great video with Jesse Myers about this where we 228 00:13:01,040 --> 00:13:04,760 unpacked why, you know, we think a crypto is dead. 229 00:13:04,760 --> 00:13:07,160 But yeah, I agree. I think what many people have 230 00:13:07,160 --> 00:13:10,680 forgotten is that is that, and I really like what you said, it 231 00:13:10,680 --> 00:13:13,360 was like a free market, right? It was just like, OK, there's 232 00:13:13,360 --> 00:13:16,200 this protocol on the Internet, you know, the, you know, 233 00:13:16,400 --> 00:13:18,360 protocol for money, computer protocol for money. 234 00:13:18,560 --> 00:13:20,080 These are the rules. You can adopt it. 235 00:13:20,360 --> 00:13:23,440 And then as you said, you know, once people understood, hey, 236 00:13:23,440 --> 00:13:27,040 this is interesting, they were actually putting real world 237 00:13:27,360 --> 00:13:33,960 assets, energy, time, money, machinery towards expending 238 00:13:33,960 --> 00:13:39,160 energy to create this digital, let's call it the token for now. 239 00:13:39,480 --> 00:13:41,400 Yeah. And very importantly, there was 240 00:13:41,400 --> 00:13:44,200 no price for a long time. So people are doing it for the 241 00:13:44,200 --> 00:13:47,800 technology. And then the price kind of was a 242 00:13:47,800 --> 00:13:51,320 function of a market wanting to figure out whether they could 243 00:13:51,320 --> 00:13:53,080 buy and sell. Yeah, I agree. 244 00:13:53,280 --> 00:13:56,720 So do you think we should talk about Bitcoin as not even part 245 00:13:56,720 --> 00:13:58,960 of of of crypto? I don't know what you think when 246 00:13:58,960 --> 00:14:01,600 people conflate Bitcoin and crypto with each other, but I'd 247 00:14:01,600 --> 00:14:07,040 say they are totally different. Yeah, I do think crypto has been 248 00:14:07,040 --> 00:14:08,720 a massive psyop for the industry. 249 00:14:08,720 --> 00:14:11,120 It's a free market, so anyone can create in the thing and I 250 00:14:11,120 --> 00:14:14,640 don't believe in, you know, stopping anyone. 251 00:14:14,640 --> 00:14:18,680 But I think it's been such a distraction for the industry 252 00:14:19,960 --> 00:14:23,360 that everyone that I know that hangs around for the long time, 253 00:14:23,360 --> 00:14:27,800 they come in, you know, they come into crypto and hopefully 254 00:14:27,800 --> 00:14:31,320 they end up at Bitcoin. And most people do, but some 255 00:14:31,320 --> 00:14:35,240 people, they come in crypto, you know, they, they're basically 256 00:14:35,240 --> 00:14:37,560 investing in these characters like a stock. 257 00:14:38,440 --> 00:14:42,440 And slowly but surely they find out why Bitcoin is different. 258 00:14:43,400 --> 00:14:49,000 And Bitcoin really does sit uniquely in its own place, as, 259 00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:51,000 you know, digital hard sound money. 260 00:14:51,960 --> 00:14:56,920 I do think that the analogy of digital gold is useful and 261 00:14:57,160 --> 00:15:01,760 everything else is like a, you know, more like a stock that 262 00:15:01,960 --> 00:15:07,040 depends upon the management of certain communities that have 263 00:15:07,080 --> 00:15:11,560 almost like a foundation or a company and a bunch of pre mined 264 00:15:11,560 --> 00:15:15,560 tokens that they're looking to monetize over time and 265 00:15:15,840 --> 00:15:20,200 eventually have to sell those on to you if they create enough 266 00:15:20,200 --> 00:15:23,480 perception or value. And very, very few of them 267 00:15:23,840 --> 00:15:26,520 actually end up with anything like Bitcoin. 268 00:15:28,640 --> 00:15:33,480 There's a massive premium for it will never change in a major in 269 00:15:33,480 --> 00:15:38,080 a significant way without hitting massive consensus on a 270 00:15:38,080 --> 00:15:42,640 network that has got significant adoption from competing players, 271 00:15:42,640 --> 00:15:45,640 whether it's nodes, whether it's miners, whether it's exchanges, 272 00:15:45,640 --> 00:15:50,280 whether it's users, you know, they, they all, you know, have 273 00:15:50,440 --> 00:15:54,800 the, the way that it was designed is, is significant. 274 00:15:54,800 --> 00:15:57,960 And if you look at everything today, even the environment 275 00:15:57,960 --> 00:16:01,360 we're in today, you know, people thought they understood the US 276 00:16:01,360 --> 00:16:04,880 government, the Trump administration comes in, it 277 00:16:04,880 --> 00:16:09,360 rages a tariff war. And now the rules of investing 278 00:16:09,360 --> 00:16:13,080 in the US government through treasuries and bonds completely 279 00:16:13,080 --> 00:16:15,560 changes. If you're investing in stocks, 280 00:16:15,920 --> 00:16:20,040 you know you're dealing with humans and boards and decisions 281 00:16:20,040 --> 00:16:24,760 and wrong decisions and changes. If you're in dealing and 282 00:16:24,760 --> 00:16:27,080 anything other than a commodity, you've got all these 283 00:16:27,080 --> 00:16:30,720 counterparty risk, human risks. Things can change. 284 00:16:31,040 --> 00:16:34,160 And so people like gold right now because everything is 285 00:16:34,160 --> 00:16:36,200 changing. They don't know whether the US 286 00:16:36,240 --> 00:16:38,720 empire is going to be there. They don't know what the value 287 00:16:38,720 --> 00:16:41,400 of the dollar is relative to other currencies. 288 00:16:41,720 --> 00:16:44,440 And because everything is changing, people are out flowing 289 00:16:44,440 --> 00:16:48,560 into gold and Bitcoin because gold and Bitcoin, you know what 290 00:16:48,560 --> 00:16:53,480 it is, the rules don't change. But Bitcoin even has less things 291 00:16:53,480 --> 00:16:56,680 that change because there is still the possibility. 292 00:16:56,680 --> 00:16:59,480 Like there was an announcement recently that I think El 293 00:16:59,480 --> 00:17:03,880 Salvador said it's got $3 trillion of gold under its 294 00:17:03,880 --> 00:17:06,400 ground that it could try and extract. 295 00:17:06,920 --> 00:17:10,680 And so you always have these these changes that can happen. 296 00:17:10,680 --> 00:17:13,000 And while it's not common in gold, which is why it's 297 00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:16,800 preserved its value with Bitcoin, it never changes. 298 00:17:16,920 --> 00:17:21,880 The rules are identical and enforced by the community on, 299 00:17:21,960 --> 00:17:25,920 you know, backed up on nodes all around the world and enforced by 300 00:17:25,920 --> 00:17:29,880 the largest distributed supercomputer in the world that 301 00:17:29,880 --> 00:17:34,440 is hosted in many different countries by anyone that wants 302 00:17:34,440 --> 00:17:37,040 to fire it up with countries that hate each other and can 303 00:17:37,040 --> 00:17:41,160 never geopolitically strategically align to take down 304 00:17:41,160 --> 00:17:43,520 the network. And it would cost them billions, 305 00:17:43,520 --> 00:17:46,720 if not trillions, to try and execute such an attack. 306 00:17:47,800 --> 00:17:49,840 We talked about speculation. I also think you know, like if 307 00:17:49,840 --> 00:17:52,840 you invest in Tesla, you speculate on Elon waking up in 308 00:17:52,840 --> 00:17:55,520 the morning, right? Like if, if Elon doesn't wake up 309 00:17:55,520 --> 00:17:57,800 in the morning, guess what happens with with the stock, 310 00:17:57,800 --> 00:17:59,200 right? I think that's also the 311 00:17:59,200 --> 00:18:00,640 counterparty risk that you mentioned. 312 00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:04,320 So the the second argument is bitcoins value anti Bitcoin 313 00:18:04,320 --> 00:18:07,680 argument is bitcoins value is driven primarily by speculation. 314 00:18:08,200 --> 00:18:11,200 Bitcoins current market price is mainly speculative driven by 315 00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:14,760 ETFs into institutional investors and leverage positions 316 00:18:14,760 --> 00:18:17,200 risking large liquidation events. 317 00:18:17,200 --> 00:18:20,360 And your rebuttal was though speculation is present, Bitcoins 318 00:18:20,360 --> 00:18:23,520 long term value and adoption are anchored by committed holders 319 00:18:23,520 --> 00:18:27,600 who regularly accumulate Bitcoin regardless of price, providing 320 00:18:27,600 --> 00:18:31,040 stability during volatility. My question for you is how do 321 00:18:31,040 --> 00:18:35,600 speculative activities like ETFs or the leverage positions impact 322 00:18:35,600 --> 00:18:38,600 Bitcoins adoption as a reliable store of value? 323 00:18:38,600 --> 00:18:42,480 And maybe also can you can you see some merit also in in Peters 324 00:18:43,800 --> 00:18:46,920 position maybe maybe we can also mention that in like the other 325 00:18:47,280 --> 00:18:49,080 arguments that that we come across? 326 00:18:50,320 --> 00:18:52,400 Yeah. So I mean, it's a bit of a a 327 00:18:52,520 --> 00:18:55,560 nuanced term because people have a different definition. 328 00:18:55,560 --> 00:19:00,520 So for me, I, I, I distinguish between a trader and investor. 329 00:19:00,520 --> 00:19:03,960 I think a trader is somebody that has a certain unit of 330 00:19:03,960 --> 00:19:09,240 account IE dollars and says I would like to invest in this 331 00:19:09,240 --> 00:19:13,600 asset class short term because I believe that it's going to be, 332 00:19:13,600 --> 00:19:16,720 it's going to make me more dollars and I could even short 333 00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:19,840 it or something. And so speculation is what 334 00:19:19,840 --> 00:19:25,400 drives markets and speculations. Even in the most liquid markets 335 00:19:25,400 --> 00:19:30,040 in the world, let's say U.S., Treasuries and bonds, you know, 336 00:19:30,160 --> 00:19:35,360 they, there is a massive rampant amount of speculation that makes 337 00:19:35,360 --> 00:19:38,280 these markets. And then you have different 338 00:19:38,280 --> 00:19:41,280 types of products that are built around that in order to get 339 00:19:41,280 --> 00:19:43,000 exposure to them in different ways. 340 00:19:43,800 --> 00:19:47,760 But in the end, the fundamental value prevails. 341 00:19:47,760 --> 00:19:52,560 And so with a stock, you know that it has key person risk, it 342 00:19:52,560 --> 00:19:55,920 has counterparty risk, it is there to achieve a goal. 343 00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:59,360 It has quarterly reports. If those quarterly reports are 344 00:19:59,360 --> 00:20:01,600 better than expected, the value goes up. 345 00:20:01,840 --> 00:20:04,320 If it's worse than expected, the value goes down. 346 00:20:05,040 --> 00:20:08,920 People make fake news and they speculate and they try and do 347 00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:11,920 all sorts of stuff. Some people accumulate massive 348 00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:15,640 positions and they use the fact that they can gain access to 349 00:20:15,640 --> 00:20:17,920 leverage to short the stock, manipulate it. 350 00:20:18,560 --> 00:20:22,280 This happens in every single market, and Bitcoin is no 351 00:20:22,280 --> 00:20:24,320 different. In fact, because Bitcoin is so 352 00:20:24,320 --> 00:20:28,960 volatile, it's got a rampant community of speculators that 353 00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:32,000 are always either looking to make more dollars or make more 354 00:20:32,000 --> 00:20:34,760 Bitcoin. And so this is the the market 355 00:20:34,760 --> 00:20:37,920 dynamics. But the real question is, of all 356 00:20:37,920 --> 00:20:42,520 the assets in the world, which one is the hardest to manipulate 357 00:20:42,520 --> 00:20:47,000 long term is the real question. And I'd argue to you, the one 358 00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:52,760 that has a fixed supply is probably long term the hardest 359 00:20:52,760 --> 00:20:56,440 to manipulate provided that it has a sufficient amount of 360 00:20:56,440 --> 00:20:58,800 liquidity. And so with all the shit coins, 361 00:20:58,800 --> 00:21:02,120 because liquidity is so low, one person can come along and 362 00:21:02,120 --> 00:21:04,560 completely corner and manipulate the market. 363 00:21:04,560 --> 00:21:07,720 With Bitcoin, you have to be a serious player to be able to 364 00:21:07,720 --> 00:21:10,800 impact price. So you you've eliminated all 365 00:21:10,800 --> 00:21:13,920 those that have access to low capital or pre mines or various 366 00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:16,560 other things in the stock market. 367 00:21:16,560 --> 00:21:20,640 You know that at any one time there is an authorized share 368 00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:23,520 capital and someone could increase the number of shares. 369 00:21:23,720 --> 00:21:27,080 They could do a rights issue, they could do a split, they 370 00:21:27,080 --> 00:21:29,720 could decide to do a share buyback, they could engage in. 371 00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:34,000 So there's all these human things that can happen that make 372 00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:37,640 it more subject to having to have rules around it, like 373 00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:41,640 insider trading rules and Chinese rules and, you know, 374 00:21:41,640 --> 00:21:44,560 having to disclose if you're going to be doing a public bids 375 00:21:44,560 --> 00:21:47,240 at the company and you have all these different rules. 376 00:21:48,400 --> 00:21:51,960 You know, with Treasuries, you've got, you know, kind of 377 00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:54,840 your understanding of the creditworthiness of the US 378 00:21:54,840 --> 00:21:56,240 government. But the feds can make a 379 00:21:56,240 --> 00:21:58,240 decision. They can decide to change 380 00:21:58,240 --> 00:22:01,840 interest rates. the US government could increase the 381 00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:05,160 debt ceiling and therefore there's more treasuries in the 382 00:22:05,160 --> 00:22:07,920 market. A bank could suddenly have a 383 00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:11,680 bunch of assets go into distress, have to sell those 384 00:22:11,680 --> 00:22:15,200 assets in distress. There could be a carry trade 385 00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:17,640 where Japan is trying to control their inflation. 386 00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:21,240 They, they increase rates and suddenly that creates A 387 00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:24,720 speculative attack and people have to liquidate from their 388 00:22:24,720 --> 00:22:27,760 hedge fund the assets that were purchasing all these different 389 00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:30,000 stocks. So all of these things exist and 390 00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:32,080 they, they also exist in Bitcoin. 391 00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:35,600 And the same with gold. You know, gold is because the 392 00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:41,480 asset is held by central banks. For decades, central banks have 393 00:22:41,480 --> 00:22:44,360 been planning what a change of empire looks like, like we're 394 00:22:44,360 --> 00:22:48,080 experiencing today. And so they can use futures 395 00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:52,840 markets to oppress prices, and then they can accumulate more 396 00:22:52,840 --> 00:22:55,880 and more gold based upon people getting bored and going into 397 00:22:55,880 --> 00:22:59,920 different asset classes. But eventually, as we are seeing 398 00:22:59,920 --> 00:23:04,360 today, the manipulation stops and it returns to its 399 00:23:04,360 --> 00:23:07,640 fundamental value, which is that no countries are trusting each 400 00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:10,640 other, so they don't know what the next World reserve currency 401 00:23:10,640 --> 00:23:12,120 is. So they're going into gold right 402 00:23:12,120 --> 00:23:15,480 now. Now with Bitcoin, I'd say that 403 00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:19,160 there is the least number of variables that can change. 404 00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:24,080 And it is the, the, the only asset in the world that I know 405 00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:27,480 of where you can guarantee a fixed supply. 406 00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:30,160 Even gold inflates at 2% per annum. 407 00:23:30,600 --> 00:23:34,960 And so therefore we would be at, we would be lying if we said you 408 00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:36,320 can't short term manipulate that. 409 00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:39,120 And it always has happened. You know, people Chuck loads of 410 00:23:39,120 --> 00:23:42,520 money into Coinbase, People speculate whether it's selling, 411 00:23:43,280 --> 00:23:46,600 announce something on Telegram, and you know, all sorts of games 412 00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:49,800 are played in order to manipulate the price of Bitcoin. 413 00:23:50,360 --> 00:23:53,560 But fundamentally, if you look at a chart of Bitcoin, if you 414 00:23:53,560 --> 00:23:58,160 zoom out and say it has been alive for 16 years and in those 415 00:23:58,160 --> 00:24:01,880 sixteen years put it on a logarithmic chart and you just 416 00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:06,000 see that it it's not manipulated, you know, long 417 00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:08,600 term. And I believe that it is harder 418 00:24:08,600 --> 00:24:14,680 to long term manipulate Bitcoin adjusted for liquidity than any 419 00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:19,200 other asset class in the world. And as the liquidity increases, 420 00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:22,000 it becomes even harder and harder and harder. 421 00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:27,320 And every four years in Bitcoin, you get new levels of market 422 00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:31,400 capitalization, new levels of liquidity, new use cases, and 423 00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:35,600 more and more people that say, well, you know, I would come 424 00:24:35,600 --> 00:24:38,800 here because this market cap is worth about 10 million, highly 425 00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:41,200 speculative. Then there was the people that 426 00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:43,360 would come in because it's worth a billion market cap. 427 00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:45,760 Then you get the people that will come in because it's a 428 00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:48,800 trillion market cap. And then you get the people that 429 00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:51,000 won't come in until it's worth 10 trillion. 430 00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:54,280 And then eventually maybe a central bank says we got $100 431 00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:58,800 trillion market cap asset here with vast liquidity at that 432 00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:02,960 point will come in. And so I would argue, yes, 433 00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:04,680 there's manipulation. You can't change that. 434 00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:09,600 It is a free market, but it's probably the hardest and as 435 00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:12,640 liquidity goes up, even harder. And that has just been the 436 00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:14,560 trends and I didn't see why that trend would stop. 437 00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:17,680 I agree, like it takes some time, but maybe another 438 00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:19,280 question. What is then speculation 439 00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:22,200 actually? Like why are anti Bitcoin people 440 00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:25,120 using speculation? I mean, when I think about that, 441 00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:28,280 it's speculating on the fact that Bitcoin remains the same, 442 00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:29,960 right? That it fulfills its promises. 443 00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:33,720 That's what I'm speculating on. Or the dollar falling, right? 444 00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:36,480 I mean, are critics using it in the wrong way? 445 00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:40,920 Is it just like simple word to use in an anti Bitcoin argument? 446 00:25:41,120 --> 00:25:42,760 Yeah. I mean, it's not unique to 447 00:25:42,760 --> 00:25:44,440 Bitcoin. That's the whole point here. 448 00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:46,800 There's nothing different in that argument that you could 449 00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:49,680 apply to any other asset class. But what I would argue as well, 450 00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:54,080 I guess what he's what the argument is, is, is it 100% 451 00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:58,640 speculation? And so to me, you know, there 452 00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:02,440 are many people like me and I would argue that when, you know, 453 00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:07,040 an asset class cannot change in terms of its fundamentals, of 454 00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:09,720 course it can change in price and demand and all sorts of 455 00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:12,200 stuff. But in terms of the fundamentals 456 00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:17,360 of it, when you have reliability, I would argue that 457 00:26:17,360 --> 00:26:21,000 more people can make longer term financial decisions around 458 00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:24,600 reliability than you can around something that would change. 459 00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:29,280 And so because of that unique property, I found that once 460 00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:33,720 people get Bitcoin, they, they do all sorts of crazy stuff. 461 00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:36,880 They go around the, the distractions and crypto and all 462 00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:40,320 that stuff. But most people end up realizing 463 00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:45,400 Bitcoin is where the value is. And my job is not to do things 464 00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:49,000 with Bitcoin. My job is to actually I earn my 465 00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:53,600 Fiat currency and I save it in Bitcoin after I've covered all 466 00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:55,560 my expenses with my Fiat currency. 467 00:26:56,440 --> 00:26:59,640 And there are many, many people like just like me that will do 468 00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:01,600 that. And I will buy the Bitcoin every 469 00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:04,360 single month. Not because I need more Bitcoin, 470 00:27:04,360 --> 00:27:08,840 You know, I've been involved since $3, but I'm asking myself 471 00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:10,720 the question, what am I going to save in? 472 00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:14,560 And when I answer that question, the only question I have, 473 00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:17,760 because I know I've got a more than four year time frame, I'm 474 00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:21,640 not trying to, you know, sell it, save it and then sell it to 475 00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:25,760 pay my rent next month. I'm, I'm going to answer that 476 00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:27,760 question. The best place for me to park my 477 00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:32,240 funds if I've got a more than four year time frame is Bitcoin. 478 00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:35,360 And, and, and because throughout the whole history, I can't tell 479 00:27:35,360 --> 00:27:37,280 you it will happen in the future, I believe it will. 480 00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:40,720 But it has outperformed every hedge fund manager, every asset 481 00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:44,960 class, everyone there. So I would argue that this type 482 00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:48,520 of predictability and reliability has only grown the 483 00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:51,840 number of people, the dollar cost average buy at whatever 484 00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:55,920 price it is that month and actually become long term 485 00:27:55,920 --> 00:28:00,400 investors and they can do it in self custody. 486 00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:05,840 So the ability to actually have full financial autonomy and be 487 00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:10,400 able to own your own money and know that if my country gets 488 00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:14,080 authoritarianism or I don't like where it's going, I can 489 00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:17,000 transport my value wherever I want in the world. 490 00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:21,000 So obviously I have to adhere to the, the rules, but that value 491 00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:24,720 can come with me. And there is no, there is no 492 00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:28,640 border around the constraints of trying to ship vast amounts of 493 00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:33,120 gold that can lead to confiscation, taxation, all 494 00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:36,560 sorts of questions that even if you're, you know, all sorts of 495 00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:39,080 problems. And we're, we're experiencing 496 00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:42,880 that right now where there's repatriation of gold and they're 497 00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:44,880 trying to get it insured. They don't have the gold. 498 00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:46,440 They're trying to accumulate the gold. 499 00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:48,840 They're trying to put it in ships and airplanes and all 500 00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:51,160 sorts of stuff. You know, Argentina just sent 501 00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:55,680 all of its gold to London. And you know, London has a 502 00:28:55,680 --> 00:28:58,920 history like with Venezuela of just taking the gold if they 503 00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:01,480 don't like the current leadership of the government. 504 00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:06,760 And so because you have that self custody, you have that 505 00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:10,120 reliability, you have that predictability and monetary 506 00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:14,920 policy, and you can take that value anywhere in the world, I'd 507 00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:17,560 argue that there are way more people that will become 508 00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:21,960 investors and less people that will speculate over time. 509 00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:24,440 And the speculators, what are they? 510 00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:28,560 They're, they're people that are trying to get fancy and trying 511 00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:31,880 to use leverage in order to end up with more dollar value. 512 00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:37,600 And those people haven't quite understood that it's when you 513 00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:41,920 value your wealth in Bitcoin that you actually end up 514 00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:44,800 preventing all those mistakes and speculation. 515 00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:48,680 And, and we've got a community of people that try to impart 516 00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:52,720 these experience and lessons upon other new people to it more 517 00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:56,000 than anywhere else. Because the end rule is just buy 518 00:29:56,000 --> 00:30:01,960 it every month, hold it for the long term and and stop all the 519 00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:07,120 speculation. If you want to self custody your 520 00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:10,160 Bitcoin stack, I recommend the Blockstream Jade Plus. 521 00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:13,440 I've been using this premium Bitcoin only hardware wallet for 522 00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:16,560 a few months now and I love its design and ease of use. 523 00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:19,720 What makes it stand out is it's open source hardware and 524 00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:23,440 software and Blockstreams unique genuine check which make sure 525 00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:27,280 that your device is authentic, no back doors or compromises. 526 00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:31,680 You can connect with the J plus however you want Bluetooth USBC 527 00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:34,640 or you can go fully air gapped with its building camera for 528 00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:38,160 cable free QR transactions. The metal case feels solid and 529 00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:40,880 the color screen is easy to read and it connects with your 530 00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:44,280 favorite Bitcoin apps like Blockstream, green Sparrow and 531 00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:46,560 electron. Get your J Plus today at 532 00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:50,640 store.blockstream.com and use Code Bomb to get 10% of your 533 00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:54,800 entire order. Let's talk about something that 534 00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:57,320 not a lot of people think about before it's too late. 535 00:30:57,520 --> 00:30:59,880 Where are you storing your Bitcoin seed words? 536 00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:03,160 Are they truly secure? I found my solution with Stamp 537 00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:05,160 Seat. It's an elegant all in one 538 00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:08,760 titanium plate solution with no separate pieces to lose or 539 00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:10,760 manage. Your seat phrase gets 540 00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:14,440 permanently stamped into pure titanium that withstands fire, 541 00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:17,200 survives water, and lasts for generations. 542 00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:19,800 And like shallow etching methods, stamp seats better. 543 00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:23,120 The tools help you to deeply stamp every letter for permanent 544 00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:26,000 readability, protecting your financial legacy. 545 00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:29,360 When you order a titanium seat plate from Stamp seat, you can 546 00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:32,760 also upload a custom design or your logo to customize the back 547 00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:35,280 of your plate to make it fully personalized. 548 00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:38,440 Paper seat phrases are a disaster waiting to happen. 549 00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:41,400 Secure your Bitcoin with Stamp Seat for decades to come. 550 00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:46,240 Visit stampseat.com and use Cobram that's BR AM to get 15% 551 00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:50,000 of your order and chill. I'd say, you know, it's, it's a, 552 00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:53,560 I talk about this a lot. It, it sounds too good to be 553 00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:56,640 true, right, because many people feel that they should play this 554 00:31:56,640 --> 00:32:00,120 investment game and be on top of it in the news and then Powell 555 00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:03,680 and whatever. Whereas, well, of course the 556 00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:07,800 Bitcoin study is, is hard. But once you get it, you that's 557 00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:10,040 already the reward, right? Because then you can chill like 558 00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:12,560 you don't have to to play these games. 559 00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:14,720 And yeah, what what you were talking about? 560 00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:18,560 Bigger market as well, the market of people that don't want 561 00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:21,480 to know what the Fed's doing, don't want to analyze stocks, 562 00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:24,040 don't want to figure out any of this stuff. 563 00:32:24,600 --> 00:32:28,280 They just need an easy where they can get on with their life 564 00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:32,720 and they can have an asset that has historically beats in every 565 00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:34,280 other asset. They can't say it will happen 566 00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:39,160 again, but I believe it will and and there is a lot more people 567 00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:44,560 that want to have a life but want the finances beating the 568 00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:47,680 Federal Reserve and the shenanigans of inflation. 569 00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:52,200 Well, I think that that again is a good bridge to the next one 570 00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:55,720 because I'd say that is actually the use case, right? 571 00:32:55,800 --> 00:32:58,200 That's the value that that people are looking for. 572 00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:01,080 Eventually that's the the the problem or the the need that 573 00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:03,520 they have. And the third argument I wanted 574 00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:07,080 to talk about is anti Bitcoin argument is Bitcoin lacks 575 00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:09,760 intrinsic value. So Peter Schiff said something 576 00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:12,160 like Bitcoin has no intrinsic backing like gold. 577 00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:15,200 It relies solely on collective belief or adoption. 578 00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:18,840 And your rebuttal was Bitcoins intrinsic value derives from its 579 00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:22,600 secure decentralized proof of work network, immutability of 580 00:33:22,600 --> 00:33:26,200 its Ledger, instant auditability and digital scarcity making it 581 00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:29,280 verifiable and trust minimized compared to physical assets 582 00:33:29,280 --> 00:33:31,360 requiring third party validation. 583 00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:33,960 Yeah. And my, my question to gold box 584 00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:38,000 is always, well, if I buy a gold coin in your little store, how 585 00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:40,000 do I know it's real? You know, and then they're going 586 00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:42,120 to be like, yeah, they're, they're very easy ways. 587 00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:45,600 I just need 4 machines and somewhere, you know, some 588 00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:48,400 chemicals and then I can show you, you know, that it's real. 589 00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:51,680 Yeah. So my question for you is, what 590 00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:55,920 would you consider an actual credible threat to any of these 591 00:33:55,920 --> 00:33:58,160 elements that give Bitcoin its value? 592 00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:06,920 Well, I would say that to me the true value is self custody. 593 00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:10,120 So the ability to own your own and have full financial 594 00:34:10,120 --> 00:34:11,880 autonomy. Not everyone will do that. 595 00:34:13,080 --> 00:34:18,280 The ability to transport value anywhere in the world without 596 00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:22,000 all the limitations of physicality, auditability, you 597 00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:25,400 know, any of that stuff and, and middle people to verify. 598 00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:29,719 And then finally, the reliability of the, the monetary 599 00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:32,679 policy, knowing that there is no central banker that can change 600 00:34:32,679 --> 00:34:35,600 that. And so once you understand all 601 00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:38,840 those rules that you can transport it and move it and 602 00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:42,679 send it whenever you want, you know what the the supply is and 603 00:34:42,679 --> 00:34:46,600 you know the economics of it. Then the real utility for me 604 00:34:46,600 --> 00:34:51,600 comes self sovereignty and the ability to have full financial 605 00:34:51,600 --> 00:34:56,000 autonomy and own your own assets in a, in a very, very scalable 606 00:34:56,000 --> 00:35:00,360 way. And you know, some people will 607 00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:05,720 choose to outsource that. And so some people will make a 608 00:35:05,720 --> 00:35:08,160 bad decision like putting it on an exchange. 609 00:35:08,720 --> 00:35:13,760 And then historically exchanges create, you know, fractional 610 00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:17,880 reserve Bitcoin because when everyone tries to get their 611 00:35:17,880 --> 00:35:21,120 Bitcoin like an exchange like FDX, it turned out that they 612 00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:24,400 didn't have that Bitcoin because they were speculating with it. 613 00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:28,680 And so we, you know, we have about a couple of million 614 00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:34,400 bitcoins on exchanges and you know, those aren't bitcoins, 615 00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:37,720 those are IOU bitcoins. And The funny thing is, is most 616 00:35:37,720 --> 00:35:43,800 people in gold have IOU gold. And we know for a fact, like, I 617 00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:46,840 don't think this is even indisputable, that there are way 618 00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:48,960 more claims on gold than there is gold. 619 00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:53,560 And, you know, it's only in times like COVID when they get 620 00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:57,040 tested and suddenly you can't get your gold. 621 00:35:57,040 --> 00:36:00,040 You're trying to get it from Singapore and you can't get it. 622 00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:03,160 And you, you know, you might be the, the bag holder, the last 623 00:36:03,160 --> 00:36:06,560 man standing. And even then, the government 624 00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:10,280 could just go to the custodian as they did in 1933 and say, 625 00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:15,960 hand in your gold. You know, we'll take it now you 626 00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:20,160 having it in self custody is just removing many, many of 627 00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:24,920 these problems by you having full financial autonomy. 628 00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:30,440 Now there is a downside to that that actually it is an unnatural 629 00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:35,040 process that requires you learning how to set up a device 630 00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:38,000 where you can't rely on anybody and there is no insurance. 631 00:36:38,560 --> 00:36:40,720 And for some people that's petrifying. 632 00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:45,240 And so they end up buying a Bitcoin ETF because, you know, 633 00:36:45,240 --> 00:36:48,120 there may be tax incentives or they may have their money in 634 00:36:48,120 --> 00:36:51,520 their retirement fund. And so they end up in a honey 635 00:36:51,520 --> 00:36:54,040 pot where BlackRock controls your Bitcoin for you. 636 00:36:54,520 --> 00:36:56,000 And sometimes you need to be there. 637 00:36:56,640 --> 00:37:00,200 Then you plan things like inheritance, and you want to 638 00:37:00,200 --> 00:37:01,640 learn when you can own your own money. 639 00:37:01,640 --> 00:37:03,360 There's like, how do you pass it on? 640 00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:06,560 Who do you trust it with? You know, these questions, as 641 00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:09,360 you grow your wealth, become fairly tricky questions. 642 00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:15,240 And we have answers to all of them, but they're not as simple 643 00:37:15,240 --> 00:37:19,800 as just hold it at a bank and hope that the government will 644 00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:22,320 bail it out and then understand it. 645 00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:25,360 The privatizing the profits, socializing the losses. 646 00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:28,160 And that's the reason why you got less money at the end of the 647 00:37:28,160 --> 00:37:30,400 year because of the way the Fiat system works. 648 00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:36,680 So that whole trade off, but I, but I think if too many people 649 00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:40,600 end up with the easy option and then they start storing it at 650 00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:43,360 banks and then banks can do fractional reserve and all that 651 00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:46,360 type of stuff. It does not systemically change 652 00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:49,480 Bitcoin because a Bitcoin and a Bitcoin IU is not the same 653 00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:52,440 thing. But it does change the dynamics 654 00:37:52,440 --> 00:37:56,120 and some people will get stung by that and some people that 655 00:37:56,120 --> 00:38:01,360 self custody tragically, sadly, will not take the correct 656 00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:04,960 security measures and they may end up losing their Bitcoin. 657 00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:10,160 And throughout history that is a a brutal, ruthless reality that 658 00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:13,360 you have the responsibility and the solutions for it are there. 659 00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:17,600 But you know that that is a trade off and some people are 660 00:38:17,600 --> 00:38:21,880 uncomfortable with that. And but that is the utility of 661 00:38:21,880 --> 00:38:23,520 it. And if we ended up just all 662 00:38:23,520 --> 00:38:26,360 giving it to banks, then we'd recreate the system. 663 00:38:26,600 --> 00:38:29,280 So there needs to be, at the moment there's a very healthy 664 00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:33,520 ratio of people that choose full financial autonomy and self 665 00:38:33,520 --> 00:38:36,560 custody. But I think our job is the 666 00:38:36,560 --> 00:38:39,680 Bitcoin community is to ensure that people understand those 667 00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:44,720 features, utilize that utility, because that is what makes 668 00:38:44,720 --> 00:38:47,680 Bitcoin so useful and it also protects you. 669 00:38:47,960 --> 00:38:50,520 I don't know if you saw there was like a press conference of 670 00:38:50,520 --> 00:38:53,240 the Bank of England where they explained why they were so slow 671 00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:55,400 giving out the gold. I don't know if you saw that, 672 00:38:55,400 --> 00:38:57,800 but they had like a presser and they said like, well, yeah, we 673 00:38:57,800 --> 00:38:59,640 have a certain system and they're numbered in a certain 674 00:38:59,640 --> 00:39:01,080 way. And sometimes we move them there 675 00:39:01,080 --> 00:39:03,560 and then we move them there. And yeah, we had a little snafu 676 00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:07,360 in the Excel sheet or whatever. It's them talking. 677 00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:12,080 That's their way of verifying the trust me Bro type attitude, 678 00:39:12,080 --> 00:39:13,560 right? Like I'm the Bank of England and 679 00:39:13,560 --> 00:39:15,920 I have a press conference and now I'm telling you, you know 680 00:39:15,920 --> 00:39:17,960 how it works. Whereas, you know, with Bitcoin, 681 00:39:17,960 --> 00:39:19,440 you can just say, like, do you have it or not? 682 00:39:19,720 --> 00:39:22,280 You know, it just takes away all that nonsense. 683 00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:25,280 Yeah, No, I mean to, to be able to just say to somebody I'm, I'm 684 00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:28,280 good for 100 million, here's my address and I can send a 685 00:39:28,280 --> 00:39:30,680 message. You know, you know that that is 686 00:39:30,720 --> 00:39:34,800 a, that is a use case. And you know, at the moment, if 687 00:39:34,800 --> 00:39:38,480 I, for example, I'm, I was looking at some houses and when 688 00:39:38,480 --> 00:39:42,800 you're in the high value house market, people don't want to 689 00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:44,760 waste time with people just looking at houses. 690 00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:46,920 So you have to verify your net worth. 691 00:39:48,200 --> 00:39:51,400 And, you know, normally you go to an accountant and an 692 00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:54,960 accountant writes a letter, and then they don't actually know 693 00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:58,280 whether you've got a paper contract against that or 694 00:39:58,280 --> 00:40:02,360 something, you know, so the ability to just actually prove 695 00:40:02,360 --> 00:40:03,840 that, yeah, you're good for the money. 696 00:40:04,800 --> 00:40:07,640 This is my wallet address. It is something you can 697 00:40:07,640 --> 00:40:10,440 technically do. And as more people integrate 698 00:40:10,440 --> 00:40:14,440 these technical processes, as it becomes a backbone of a 699 00:40:14,520 --> 00:40:20,880 financial system, you're able to programmatically and disprove 700 00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:23,760 these things. In a trustless network, and 701 00:40:23,760 --> 00:40:26,040 that's the whole point, trustlessness is the key. 702 00:40:26,400 --> 00:40:29,760 I'd say that's the probably the key utility of Bitcoin is, isn't 703 00:40:29,760 --> 00:40:31,240 it? Where else is there an 704 00:40:31,240 --> 00:40:33,000 environment where you don't need to trust? 705 00:40:33,600 --> 00:40:35,840 And that is Bitcoin. I don't know anywhere else where 706 00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:38,800 you click, where you there's an environment where you don't have 707 00:40:38,800 --> 00:40:42,440 to trust. And so the Bitcoin network is 708 00:40:42,480 --> 00:40:45,360 secured obviously by computing power, right? 709 00:40:45,360 --> 00:40:50,840 The the biggest computer network in the in the world and the next 710 00:40:50,840 --> 00:40:53,720 argument I wanted to talk about that chiff used is bit bitcoins 711 00:40:53,720 --> 00:40:56,120 network security is vulnerable to price drops. 712 00:40:56,120 --> 00:40:59,680 So he says a significant Bitcoin price drop like 90%. 713 00:40:59,880 --> 00:41:02,160 We can even debate if that's going to happen anymore. 714 00:41:02,160 --> 00:41:05,120 But you know, that could severely decrease mining 715 00:41:05,120 --> 00:41:07,880 activity, undermining network security and reliability. 716 00:41:07,880 --> 00:41:10,560 And thus, you know, the future promise of Bitcoin of staying 717 00:41:10,560 --> 00:41:12,800 the same being resilient against attacks. 718 00:41:13,200 --> 00:41:16,480 So your rebuttal was bitcoins built in difficulty adjustment 719 00:41:16,920 --> 00:41:20,040 automatically recalibrates mining profitability allowing 720 00:41:20,040 --> 00:41:23,200 network security to rapidly stabilize even after significant 721 00:41:23,200 --> 00:41:25,240 price corrections. Yeah. 722 00:41:25,240 --> 00:41:28,040 And so my question is, I think this answer could also be very 723 00:41:28,040 --> 00:41:31,400 short, but do you think any prolonged low Bitcoin prices 724 00:41:31,400 --> 00:41:35,240 could actually damage network security or the decentralization 725 00:41:35,480 --> 00:41:38,440 and maybe tie in what we talked about in the beginning where, 726 00:41:38,760 --> 00:41:42,960 you know, depending on the attractiveness of being a 727 00:41:42,960 --> 00:41:46,720 Bitcoin miner, there's actually a real world market that adapts 728 00:41:46,720 --> 00:41:50,200 to that's that's called a debt business opportunity. 729 00:41:51,280 --> 00:41:53,240 Yeah. I mean, you know, people from 730 00:41:53,240 --> 00:41:55,960 the beginning, they've always created these theoretical 731 00:41:55,960 --> 00:41:58,120 concepts. And these theoretical concepts 732 00:41:58,120 --> 00:42:02,000 were debated before Bitcoin was actually launched or they, you 733 00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:07,880 know, And so the design of Bitcoin was to factor in these, 734 00:42:08,080 --> 00:42:11,280 you know, these types of events. And I've been through them all. 735 00:42:11,960 --> 00:42:15,600 So I went from a $30 Bitcoin that crashed to $3.00 in a 736 00:42:15,600 --> 00:42:17,720 couple of days. That was a 90% correction. 737 00:42:18,680 --> 00:42:23,920 I've been through, you know, a $20,000 Bitcoin that crashed to 738 00:42:23,920 --> 00:42:28,400 $3000. I've been to a $69,000 Bitcoin 739 00:42:28,400 --> 00:42:31,000 that crashed to $17,000 over time. 740 00:42:31,960 --> 00:42:35,960 And so the way that Bitcoin works is it's secured by miners. 741 00:42:37,360 --> 00:42:43,400 And you know when when you're mining, basically all it does is 742 00:42:43,400 --> 00:42:49,600 it means that a Bitcoin is verified every 10 minutes. 743 00:42:50,680 --> 00:42:54,720 And if there is, you could end up in a scenario where for two 744 00:42:54,720 --> 00:42:59,560 weeks there's a big, big queue to get in a block and then those 745 00:42:59,560 --> 00:43:03,560 transactions take longer to be confirmed. 746 00:43:03,560 --> 00:43:06,440 It doesn't mean you can still send it instantly, but to get a 747 00:43:06,440 --> 00:43:08,800 miner to confirm your transaction, it could take 748 00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:13,120 longer than 10 minutes. And when that happens, the 749 00:43:13,120 --> 00:43:15,640 difficulty rate adjusts. And you don't need to know any 750 00:43:15,640 --> 00:43:18,480 of this stuff, but it's useful if you're, if you're interested 751 00:43:18,480 --> 00:43:21,760 in understanding it. And what that means that as the 752 00:43:21,760 --> 00:43:27,720 time to confirm a block extends, it means that you we need to 753 00:43:27,720 --> 00:43:31,040 adjust the difficulty rate. And so therefore, it either gets 754 00:43:31,040 --> 00:43:33,160 easier to mine or harder to mine. 755 00:43:34,000 --> 00:43:37,480 And as it gets harder to mine, those that are less profitable 756 00:43:37,480 --> 00:43:41,760 miners may need to switch off their equipment deshelf if 757 00:43:41,760 --> 00:43:43,320 they're completely out of business. 758 00:43:44,200 --> 00:43:46,880 And only those that are more efficient are able to mine. 759 00:43:47,640 --> 00:43:51,000 But in an environment where the price radically corrects, if a 760 00:43:51,000 --> 00:43:54,200 business has managed, you know, a mining business has managed 761 00:43:54,200 --> 00:43:57,000 their expenses, they can ride through it. 762 00:43:57,520 --> 00:44:00,360 Another business will go bust because they didn't have enough 763 00:44:00,360 --> 00:44:04,560 cash flow to sustain the lower prices because a lot of their 764 00:44:04,560 --> 00:44:07,000 costs of electricity are in dollars and they're going to 765 00:44:07,000 --> 00:44:10,560 sell some Bitcoin to pay for it. And you just get a re 766 00:44:10,560 --> 00:44:13,560 collaboration of some businesses that go bust, others that are 767 00:44:13,560 --> 00:44:16,880 efficient. And as less and less people mine 768 00:44:17,280 --> 00:44:20,240 the difficulty, the IT becomes easier and easier to mine a 769 00:44:20,240 --> 00:44:24,080 Bitcoin, which creates a new profit opportunity for another 770 00:44:24,080 --> 00:44:27,920 new miner to come along and set up a business or that business 771 00:44:27,920 --> 00:44:31,320 that switched off his miners and de shelved can then switch them 772 00:44:31,320 --> 00:44:34,480 back on and you just get a re collaboration. 773 00:44:34,480 --> 00:44:38,320 So there's, there's a corrective mechanism designed for, for 774 00:44:38,320 --> 00:44:40,560 that. And people, every time people 775 00:44:40,560 --> 00:44:44,400 have talked about this death spiral thing and I, I've been 776 00:44:44,400 --> 00:44:46,480 through all the crashes and it, it, it never happened. 777 00:44:46,480 --> 00:44:50,400 It's a it's an ultra efficient market that we call anti 778 00:44:50,400 --> 00:44:54,520 fragile, where every time there is a disaster, the market just 779 00:44:54,520 --> 00:44:59,680 adjusts to that new reality and Bitcoin just carries on and, and 780 00:44:59,680 --> 00:45:03,680 everyone else panics and some people sell, other people buy, 781 00:45:04,360 --> 00:45:07,400 but the, the, the, the network just continues because it's 782 00:45:07,400 --> 00:45:11,160 already factored in these these different mechanisms. 783 00:45:12,320 --> 00:45:15,400 I think this ties into what we talked about before. 784 00:45:15,400 --> 00:45:20,760 There are so many say, market and psychological elements that 785 00:45:20,760 --> 00:45:25,560 work together that create certain incentives well before 786 00:45:25,560 --> 00:45:28,040 you adopt Bitcoin, when you adopt Bitcoin, even when you're 787 00:45:28,040 --> 00:45:34,200 mining Bitcoin, right, that all play into your contribution to 788 00:45:34,200 --> 00:45:37,400 Bitcoin in in that sense, right? Like even if we would drop to a 789 00:45:37,400 --> 00:45:42,240 level where you can mine with a GPU again, maybe even in a day, 790 00:45:42,240 --> 00:45:44,560 100,000 miners would come online, right? 791 00:45:44,560 --> 00:45:48,880 Because there are that many people that then see an up an 792 00:45:48,880 --> 00:45:51,080 economic opportunity to then start mining, which then 793 00:45:51,080 --> 00:45:54,160 increases difficulty adjustment, which then eventually makes 794 00:45:54,160 --> 00:45:56,160 mining with GPU's obsolete again, right. 795 00:45:56,160 --> 00:45:59,680 And then so it's, it's just that cycle. 796 00:45:59,760 --> 00:46:02,400 I, I, I think, yeah, I don't know, like, I, I, I think this 797 00:46:02,400 --> 00:46:04,320 is a great answer. I don't think there's anything 798 00:46:04,320 --> 00:46:07,080 else to to to say to that. Right. 799 00:46:07,080 --> 00:46:10,760 Like it's just economic incentives that align or that 800 00:46:10,760 --> 00:46:17,480 that adjust based on in, in this context, the the how, how easy 801 00:46:17,480 --> 00:46:19,320 it is to mine Bitcoin. Yeah, I don't, I don't know what 802 00:46:19,320 --> 00:46:22,560 else to add to that. All right. 803 00:46:23,600 --> 00:46:26,240 The next one is Bitcoin wealth is concentrated. 804 00:46:26,240 --> 00:46:29,000 So the argument is Bitcoin ownership and wealth are highly 805 00:46:29,000 --> 00:46:31,240 concentrated among a small number of early investors, 806 00:46:31,240 --> 00:46:34,040 exchanges, and large institutions, raising concerns 807 00:46:34,040 --> 00:46:36,760 about manipulation. Your rebuttal was significant. 808 00:46:36,760 --> 00:46:39,160 Bitcoin holdings among large entities often represent 809 00:46:39,160 --> 00:46:42,360 millions of users, like on exchanges, and are transparently 810 00:46:42,360 --> 00:46:44,760 auditable. The distribution becomes more 811 00:46:44,760 --> 00:46:47,120 decentralized over time as adoption grows. 812 00:46:48,560 --> 00:46:51,840 And yeah, I think this is a really good question to tackle 813 00:46:51,840 --> 00:46:56,720 because people conflate the decentralization of the the 814 00:46:56,720 --> 00:47:01,080 proof of work network that the security of Bitcoin with the 815 00:47:01,080 --> 00:47:04,240 ownership. And so yeah, do you think 816 00:47:04,880 --> 00:47:08,720 Bitcoin wealth concentration poses any meaningful risk to 817 00:47:09,160 --> 00:47:13,040 decentralization or governance? Maybe I already answered this 818 00:47:13,040 --> 00:47:13,960 question, but. Yeah. 819 00:47:14,040 --> 00:47:17,760 I mean, so to me, ideologically, I would like Bitcoin to be in 820 00:47:17,760 --> 00:47:19,880 the hands of as many people as possible. 821 00:47:19,880 --> 00:47:22,760 But the reality is you're dealing with human psychology. 822 00:47:23,160 --> 00:47:25,800 And so there's nothing fundamentally different about 823 00:47:25,800 --> 00:47:27,800 Bitcoin than any other asset class. 824 00:47:28,160 --> 00:47:31,240 In fact, there's less things. You know, when you create a new 825 00:47:31,240 --> 00:47:35,040 company, you create some private equity, you end up with 100% of 826 00:47:35,040 --> 00:47:37,400 that company. And over time, you give little 827 00:47:37,400 --> 00:47:41,600 chunks of it to investors and employees and share schemes and 828 00:47:41,600 --> 00:47:44,320 various other things. But most companies have a 829 00:47:44,320 --> 00:47:47,520 massive concentration of wealth, and eventually it goes public. 830 00:47:47,840 --> 00:47:50,400 And when it goes public, it distributes to more people. 831 00:47:51,600 --> 00:47:55,080 But, you know, even gold, I mean, gold is hugely 832 00:47:55,080 --> 00:47:59,560 concentrated in the hands of central banks, you know, because 833 00:47:59,760 --> 00:48:02,600 they are the natural accumulators of the vast amounts 834 00:48:02,600 --> 00:48:05,200 of gold. The interesting thing about 835 00:48:05,200 --> 00:48:08,160 Bitcoin is the fact that you even know how to ask that 836 00:48:08,160 --> 00:48:12,080 question because you can go on the website and you can pull all 837 00:48:12,080 --> 00:48:16,000 the data, that which is backed up on 10s of thousands of nodes 838 00:48:16,000 --> 00:48:18,680 all around the world. And you can see the exact 839 00:48:18,680 --> 00:48:22,200 concentration of wealth and how much Bitcoin is in every single 840 00:48:22,200 --> 00:48:25,280 wallet without necessarily knowing who it is. 841 00:48:25,280 --> 00:48:29,360 But the larger wallets, we tend to know who they are because 842 00:48:29,680 --> 00:48:31,720 people have reverse engineered it over time. 843 00:48:31,720 --> 00:48:35,840 Like we know the term Satoshi and those wallets have about a 844 00:48:35,840 --> 00:48:38,760 million Bitcoin. I personally believe that 845 00:48:38,760 --> 00:48:41,000 Satoshi's no longer with us, so it won't move. 846 00:48:41,480 --> 00:48:44,240 But we know that, and that's factored into the equation. 847 00:48:45,200 --> 00:48:48,960 We know that the Chinese government confiscated, you 848 00:48:48,960 --> 00:48:51,600 know, a bunch of Bitcoin. We know the US government 849 00:48:51,600 --> 00:48:53,720 constantly confiscated a bunch of Bitcoin. 850 00:48:54,040 --> 00:48:58,760 And certain players decide to disclose their wallet address 851 00:49:00,000 --> 00:49:02,760 for verifying reasons like exchanges. 852 00:49:02,760 --> 00:49:06,200 So, you know, Binance or Bitfinex or Bitstamp or 853 00:49:06,200 --> 00:49:10,200 Coinbase, they reveal the wallet addresses because they want to 854 00:49:10,200 --> 00:49:13,280 do proof of reserves. And so you can see this is a 855 00:49:13,280 --> 00:49:17,360 Coinbase wallet and a Coinbase wallet probably represent, you 856 00:49:17,360 --> 00:49:21,960 know, I know, I mean a Binance wallet, there's like 260 million 857 00:49:21,960 --> 00:49:25,480 users on Binance. How many of those make up, you 858 00:49:25,480 --> 00:49:28,240 know, that that wallet, who knows, but there's a lot of 859 00:49:28,240 --> 00:49:31,800 people. And so the point is that, yeah, 860 00:49:31,800 --> 00:49:36,040 concentration of wealth is something that I would love for 861 00:49:36,040 --> 00:49:39,440 Bitcoin to be more distributed, but we're not changing human 862 00:49:39,440 --> 00:49:41,720 psychology here. There are people that will 863 00:49:41,720 --> 00:49:43,880 accumulate Bitcoin as a free market. 864 00:49:44,280 --> 00:49:46,880 There are people that will get it earlier. 865 00:49:46,880 --> 00:49:50,640 There are people that will join later. 866 00:49:51,240 --> 00:49:57,200 And every single asset in the world always has a concentration 867 00:49:57,200 --> 00:50:01,880 of wealth of certain people that were a part of the game, created 868 00:50:01,880 --> 00:50:06,080 the game or or whatever it is. But with Bitcoin is completely 869 00:50:06,080 --> 00:50:08,640 different to all of the other cryptos where they pre mined the 870 00:50:08,640 --> 00:50:12,600 coins and there was massive concentration through an unfair 871 00:50:12,600 --> 00:50:17,520 mechanism. Bitcoin launched fairly and that 872 00:50:17,520 --> 00:50:21,360 ended up concentrating wealth in those that were that believed in 873 00:50:21,360 --> 00:50:24,760 it were around it. And many of them though have 874 00:50:24,760 --> 00:50:26,920 sold them. I, I know people, I spoke at the 875 00:50:26,920 --> 00:50:31,160 first Bitcoin conference in Prague, 2011 and I know a person 876 00:50:31,160 --> 00:50:36,800 there that was around had a lot of Bitcoin and doesn't have a 877 00:50:36,800 --> 00:50:39,240 lot of Bitcoin today. Like, you know, there's, there's 878 00:50:39,240 --> 00:50:42,280 people that have sold it, traded it, done stuff with it, lost it, 879 00:50:43,040 --> 00:50:46,920 various other things. So the reality is, is we'd, I'd 880 00:50:46,920 --> 00:50:50,200 love it to be more, I'd love more and more people to do it. 881 00:50:50,200 --> 00:50:53,160 And that's why we do these podcasts 'cause we want more and 882 00:50:53,160 --> 00:50:56,120 more people in, more and more people to, to get in and 883 00:50:56,120 --> 00:51:00,000 distribute that wealth. You know, I, I, I make a point 884 00:51:00,040 --> 00:51:04,480 of distributing some of my Bitcoin in areas through charity 885 00:51:04,480 --> 00:51:08,440 work or whatever it can be and various other things over time. 886 00:51:10,360 --> 00:51:13,240 But the point is, is it's not unique to Bitcoin. 887 00:51:13,240 --> 00:51:17,640 It's not systemically risky. And the fact is it's probably 888 00:51:17,640 --> 00:51:20,440 the only asset class where it was launched fairly. 889 00:51:20,760 --> 00:51:25,360 And you can verify without revealing people's identity, the 890 00:51:25,360 --> 00:51:30,520 exact concentration and the, the they tend to focus on the large 891 00:51:30,520 --> 00:51:32,800 wallets. And those large wallets tend to 892 00:51:32,800 --> 00:51:35,440 be services that are appalling Bitcoin for lots and lots of 893 00:51:35,440 --> 00:51:38,120 people. So pretty, it's pretty constant. 894 00:51:38,120 --> 00:51:42,120 It's pretty concentrated. I, I would love it to be, you 895 00:51:42,120 --> 00:51:45,680 know, more distributed. But human psychology doesn't 896 00:51:45,680 --> 00:51:50,200 change, you know, most many people know how to accumulate 897 00:51:50,200 --> 00:51:54,280 wealth, and some people don't. Well, Bitcoin is for anyone, but 898 00:51:54,280 --> 00:51:56,840 not everyone will get it right. Like that's the point. 899 00:51:56,840 --> 00:51:59,200 And I agree with you. Like I, I also hope, and I mean, 900 00:51:59,200 --> 00:52:01,720 this is, This is why we're talking right to, to just reach 901 00:52:02,320 --> 00:52:04,320 more and more people. And I agree. 902 00:52:04,320 --> 00:52:10,040 I think Bitcoin is especially now compared to, you know, when 903 00:52:10,040 --> 00:52:15,360 you got in, when I got in 2014, I got in, by the way, I also 904 00:52:15,360 --> 00:52:18,320 bought at between 100 and 300, sold it all at 4000. 905 00:52:18,320 --> 00:52:24,400 You know, like I, I didn't get it then, but but now I'd say, 906 00:52:24,680 --> 00:52:26,000 yeah, this is kind of my thing now. 907 00:52:26,000 --> 00:52:28,640 But I'm saying like Bitcoin is an asymmetric opportunity based 908 00:52:28,640 --> 00:52:30,320 on publicly available information. 909 00:52:30,320 --> 00:52:33,400 You know, like anyone can study this like it's all out there. 910 00:52:33,400 --> 00:52:37,840 There are no secrets to learning about Bitcoin. 911 00:52:37,840 --> 00:52:40,120 And even when you start using the tech, you can verify 912 00:52:40,120 --> 00:52:43,000 everything for yourself. You can verify the rules of the 913 00:52:43,560 --> 00:52:45,120 of the money protocol for yourself. 914 00:52:45,120 --> 00:52:47,800 Like there is no, you don't. You do not have to trust anyone 915 00:52:47,800 --> 00:52:49,640 else. That's a trustlessness that you 916 00:52:49,640 --> 00:52:51,640 mentioned, right? And so there isn't anything else 917 00:52:51,640 --> 00:52:54,480 that you can actually do that with. 918 00:52:54,480 --> 00:52:58,400 So the opportunity is there, but you just have to, yeah, do the 919 00:52:58,400 --> 00:53:01,040 work. I'd also argue from direct 920 00:53:01,040 --> 00:53:06,600 experience, haven't been here since $3 and met you know worked 921 00:53:06,600 --> 00:53:09,120 with hundreds of thousands of people I mean that have got into 922 00:53:09,120 --> 00:53:14,240 Bitcoin. I'd argue that I think it's 923 00:53:14,240 --> 00:53:21,160 easier to risk adjusted hold Bitcoin at $90,000 with the 924 00:53:21,160 --> 00:53:26,640 current understanding of where Bitcoin is going than holding 925 00:53:26,640 --> 00:53:32,560 Bitcoin at $3 and and holding on to that all the way to today. 926 00:53:33,240 --> 00:53:37,880 Very few people like the level of certainty that exists today, 927 00:53:37,880 --> 00:53:41,960 which is why it's lower returns relative to the level of 928 00:53:41,960 --> 00:53:45,320 uncertainty back then. I mean, we were, you know, a 929 00:53:45,320 --> 00:53:51,080 bunch of crazies the, you know, just had zero chances of 930 00:53:51,080 --> 00:53:53,200 success. It's Bitcoin is a miracle, quite 931 00:53:53,200 --> 00:53:56,920 frankly, like it should not have succeeded. 932 00:53:58,080 --> 00:54:02,000 It really shouldn't because it it's just such a wacky concept. 933 00:54:02,680 --> 00:54:07,120 It's actually remarkable that it's got here, but the level? 934 00:54:07,120 --> 00:54:10,840 Of signal by itself. You have today relative to risk 935 00:54:10,840 --> 00:54:13,120 adjusted. Back then, you were way more 936 00:54:13,120 --> 00:54:16,080 likely to sell your Bitcoin than you would be today. 937 00:54:16,560 --> 00:54:20,080 Yeah, I'd say that's the signal by itself, right? 938 00:54:20,080 --> 00:54:25,280 The fact that it still exists after 16 years, you know, All 939 00:54:25,280 --> 00:54:29,280 right, argument number six. The, the, the, not the last one. 940 00:54:29,680 --> 00:54:33,200 I have 7. Bitcoin is not effective for 941 00:54:33,200 --> 00:54:36,440 privacy. So the argument Schiff used is 942 00:54:36,440 --> 00:54:39,320 Bitcoin leaves an extensive digital drill undermining 943 00:54:39,320 --> 00:54:42,520 privacy, making it unsuitable for users needing protection 944 00:54:42,520 --> 00:54:45,520 from oppressive regimes. Your rebuttal was Bitcoin 945 00:54:45,520 --> 00:54:48,760 prioritizes censorship resistance and secure self 946 00:54:48,760 --> 00:54:52,680 custody, not complete anonymity. Privacy can be enhanced through 947 00:54:52,680 --> 00:54:55,240 supplementary methods, but Bitcoins primary strength 948 00:54:55,240 --> 00:54:58,000 remains secure global transferability. 949 00:54:58,760 --> 00:55:01,120 And my question for you is, do you think enhancing bitcoins 950 00:55:01,120 --> 00:55:03,480 privacy features would fundamentally improve its 951 00:55:03,480 --> 00:55:06,320 utility or would it induce new risks? 952 00:55:06,320 --> 00:55:10,280 And maybe to add to that, if you download the white paper, you 953 00:55:10,280 --> 00:55:15,160 search for privacy, the Satoshi talks about not exposing here 954 00:55:15,160 --> 00:55:18,720 public key. So if we're really honest, 955 00:55:18,720 --> 00:55:23,520 there's not that much about privacy in the in the white 956 00:55:23,520 --> 00:55:26,320 paper. But my personal idea is that, 957 00:55:26,320 --> 00:55:30,000 yeah, well, we we can build many technologies on top of Bitcoin 958 00:55:30,000 --> 00:55:32,360 as a base layer that eventually helps people. 959 00:55:32,360 --> 00:55:34,160 But yeah, what? What are your thoughts on this? 960 00:55:35,200 --> 00:55:41,200 Yes, and my thoughts on this is that bitcoins not private is 961 00:55:41,200 --> 00:55:44,520 pseudonymous and and everyone should know that you can have as 962 00:55:44,520 --> 00:55:48,240 many wallets as you want. You can engage in types of 963 00:55:48,240 --> 00:55:50,080 mixing activities. If you're a bit more 964 00:55:50,080 --> 00:55:54,760 sophisticated, you can get wallets that will do lots of 965 00:55:54,760 --> 00:56:00,080 things to try and obfuscate transactions, but it's not 966 00:56:00,080 --> 00:56:03,160 perfect because every transaction is on a public 967 00:56:03,160 --> 00:56:07,720 blockchain and services will get ever more sophisticated to try 968 00:56:07,720 --> 00:56:10,440 and reverse engineer those. And when you buy it at an 969 00:56:10,440 --> 00:56:13,160 exchange, you have to KYC. So then you have to reveal 970 00:56:13,160 --> 00:56:16,840 identity to that exchange and then if that exchange gets 971 00:56:16,840 --> 00:56:20,280 subpoenaed, then they may be able to attach your wallet 972 00:56:20,280 --> 00:56:23,520 address to that identity. These are all things that are 973 00:56:23,520 --> 00:56:28,200 known and are understood. And so for me, the important 974 00:56:28,200 --> 00:56:32,880 part is that that is the rules. And so if you want complete 975 00:56:32,880 --> 00:56:38,120 privacy, then you know they this isn't the solution for you 976 00:56:38,120 --> 00:56:40,200 because you've got all of those flaws. 977 00:56:40,400 --> 00:56:43,560 You can try and work on those flaws, but this is the rules of 978 00:56:43,560 --> 00:56:50,160 Bitcoin and I would argue that changing that at layer one might 979 00:56:50,160 --> 00:56:55,640 introduce uncertainty that ruins the fundamental principle of 980 00:56:55,640 --> 00:56:59,480 what Bitcoin is. And that's not a risk because it 981 00:56:59,480 --> 00:57:03,160 would only have the, the, the ability to fundamentally change 982 00:57:03,160 --> 00:57:08,200 Bitcoin is incredibly hard. So you have to get massive 983 00:57:08,200 --> 00:57:11,640 consensus amongst miners, node operators, the community, you 984 00:57:11,640 --> 00:57:13,880 have to propose Bitcoin improvement protocols. 985 00:57:14,120 --> 00:57:16,520 It has to go through a process, a code testing and all this 986 00:57:16,520 --> 00:57:18,640 stuff. And that is why Bitcoin is, is 987 00:57:18,880 --> 00:57:22,280 is is very, very hard to get these changes. 988 00:57:22,840 --> 00:57:25,880 And privacy was always something we've been debating the whole 989 00:57:25,880 --> 00:57:28,320 way through. Some people really think it's 990 00:57:28,320 --> 00:57:31,440 important, other people don't. But the rules are the rules 991 00:57:31,440 --> 00:57:37,600 today and what the community reached consensus on after a 992 00:57:37,600 --> 00:57:43,280 massive, massive public debate where there was a public war. 993 00:57:43,680 --> 00:57:46,640 And This is why I love Bitcoin because you're not going to get 994 00:57:46,640 --> 00:57:52,520 a major change without a massive public war that involves all 995 00:57:52,520 --> 00:57:54,720 people that want to be involved in that, which was the block 996 00:57:54,720 --> 00:57:56,240 war, you know, block size debate. 997 00:57:57,400 --> 00:58:01,840 The consensus that we ended up upon and there was a massive 998 00:58:01,840 --> 00:58:05,480 battle to achieve it is that some changes were made where you 999 00:58:05,480 --> 00:58:10,360 can have a layer 2 network and a layer 2 network meant that you 1000 00:58:10,360 --> 00:58:13,720 can lock up Bitcoin and companies can do it. 1001 00:58:14,680 --> 00:58:17,520 And then you can create what's called a lightning network. 1002 00:58:17,960 --> 00:58:20,560 And within that lightning network is not the same as 1003 00:58:20,560 --> 00:58:25,120 Bitcoin, but you can transact instantly and privately between 1004 00:58:25,120 --> 00:58:28,960 something called channels. Now that technology exists and 1005 00:58:28,960 --> 00:58:31,200 that's factored into where we are right now. 1006 00:58:32,080 --> 00:58:35,960 So if you do want private Bitcoin, then you have to either 1007 00:58:35,960 --> 00:58:39,320 wait for companies to make solutions around Lightning 1008 00:58:39,320 --> 00:58:42,280 Network channels. It does exist today, but it may 1009 00:58:42,280 --> 00:58:46,400 not exist in the form that you want, or you need to invest in 1010 00:58:46,400 --> 00:58:49,560 businesses or create businesses that creates the solution that 1011 00:58:49,560 --> 00:58:52,560 you want. So Bitcoin layer one, I would 1012 00:58:52,560 --> 00:58:56,680 say is a finished product without, you know, with tweaks 1013 00:58:57,280 --> 00:59:01,640 to enhance layer 2. And then layer 2 is a technology 1014 00:59:01,640 --> 00:59:05,680 play where we can make Bitcoin way, way, way more useful, but 1015 00:59:05,680 --> 00:59:09,400 we don't fundamentally change the principles by which people 1016 00:59:09,400 --> 00:59:16,200 said I'm committing my savings to this commodity knowing the 1017 00:59:16,200 --> 00:59:20,560 rules that exist today. So I think anything that 1018 00:59:20,560 --> 00:59:24,840 fundamentally changes layer one where the rules change, because 1019 00:59:24,960 --> 00:59:28,560 if you think about it, if you made it all private, now an 1020 00:59:28,560 --> 00:59:32,640 exchange might say or an ETF might say, yeah, we can't work 1021 00:59:32,640 --> 00:59:34,320 with that. And so you might get lots and 1022 00:59:34,320 --> 00:59:39,160 lots of exchanges saying as a regulated company, we are unable 1023 00:59:39,160 --> 00:59:43,680 to work with a private coin. And so therefore you 1024 00:59:43,680 --> 00:59:47,840 fundamentally change why people are saving in Bitcoin. 1025 00:59:48,320 --> 00:59:51,520 And I think avoiding that, I think, I think we're there now 1026 00:59:52,040 --> 00:59:55,760 the privacy solutions exist. The rules are understood in 1027 00:59:55,760 --> 00:59:59,480 layer one and anything that fundamentally changes layer one, 1028 00:59:59,480 --> 01:00:04,760 firstly it will probably not get through and secondly, you know, 1029 01:00:05,080 --> 01:00:10,960 if it's a drastic change then I think it would have a hit to 1030 01:00:11,240 --> 01:00:14,800 people's faith that Bitcoin is a commodity that will never 1031 01:00:14,800 --> 01:00:17,960 change. Yeah, all right. 1032 01:00:18,320 --> 01:00:23,600 And the last argument that the shift used was the uncertainty 1033 01:00:23,600 --> 01:00:26,160 around Satoshi's roughly 1,000,000 coins. 1034 01:00:26,160 --> 01:00:28,840 And you already mentioned it before that that represents 1035 01:00:28,840 --> 01:00:31,920 persistent market risk as selling them could severely 1036 01:00:31,920 --> 01:00:33,600 affect Bitcoins price and confidence. 1037 01:00:33,600 --> 01:00:37,000 I think we also heard or what's his name, Jamie Dimon say, you 1038 01:00:37,000 --> 01:00:40,120 know, when Satoshi comes back or, you know, he even set the 1039 01:00:40,120 --> 01:00:42,240 wrong name. I think, you know, he's going to 1040 01:00:42,240 --> 01:00:44,600 sell all that stuff and then it's going to 0, blah, blah. 1041 01:00:45,640 --> 01:00:49,080 You said if Satoshi, if Satoshi's coins move, the market 1042 01:00:49,080 --> 01:00:51,320 would quickly adapt. Bitcoin has historically 1043 01:00:51,320 --> 01:00:54,280 recovered from large sell offs due to its underlying 1044 01:00:54,280 --> 01:00:56,480 fundamentals of decentralization, scarcity and 1045 01:00:56,480 --> 01:00:58,960 global adoption. And yeah, my question for you is 1046 01:01:00,440 --> 01:01:03,280 how significant is the risk of Satoshi's coins being sold and 1047 01:01:03,280 --> 01:01:05,160 how could the market realistically adapt? 1048 01:01:05,440 --> 01:01:08,840 I think you mentioned you think Satoshi is no longer with us. 1049 01:01:09,320 --> 01:01:11,600 I I don't think so either. I wonder who you think it is. 1050 01:01:11,600 --> 01:01:14,000 But yeah, is there really any risk here? 1051 01:01:15,640 --> 01:01:17,360 Yeah. And I think it's factored into 1052 01:01:17,360 --> 01:01:21,720 the equation already. And so there are 1,000,000 1053 01:01:21,720 --> 01:01:26,320 Bitcoin approximately that belong to the, that were mined 1054 01:01:26,320 --> 01:01:30,640 through proof of work fairly by the group of people or people 1055 01:01:30,640 --> 01:01:35,360 that identify as Satoshi, that nobody has been able to prove 1056 01:01:35,360 --> 01:01:40,360 categorically who they are yet. That I have my own theory around 1057 01:01:40,360 --> 01:01:42,880 who it is. And I personally believe that, 1058 01:01:42,880 --> 01:01:45,120 that, that that person is no longer with us. 1059 01:01:45,120 --> 01:01:52,000 But the risk of those keys being found is a, a genuine risk that 1060 01:01:52,000 --> 01:01:55,320 exists within the market. Now, what does that actually 1061 01:01:55,320 --> 01:01:57,200 mean? How do you factor that risk into 1062 01:01:57,200 --> 01:01:59,840 the equation? Well, the answer is Bitcoin's 1063 01:01:59,840 --> 01:02:03,720 been through Black Swan events. So multiple occasions like, you 1064 01:02:03,720 --> 01:02:08,280 know, we had, we, we at one stage almost 60% of all the 1065 01:02:08,280 --> 01:02:12,240 mining hash power was in China. And China implemented a Bitcoin 1066 01:02:12,240 --> 01:02:16,440 mining ban and that crashed the price significantly. 1067 01:02:17,400 --> 01:02:20,520 And then it took like probably three to six months. 1068 01:02:20,520 --> 01:02:24,560 And then suddenly people started distributing those mining 1069 01:02:24,560 --> 01:02:28,600 machines all around the world. And industry evolved in Texas in 1070 01:02:28,800 --> 01:02:32,760 the US, where they saw a massive opportunity in supporting 1071 01:02:33,240 --> 01:02:38,280 Bitcoin mining because you could repurpose wasted electricity and 1072 01:02:38,280 --> 01:02:40,320 you can make the mining grids more efficient. 1073 01:02:40,920 --> 01:02:43,960 Others said this is an opportunity to transition to a 1074 01:02:43,960 --> 01:02:48,200 very efficient renewable form of energy where we think we can 1075 01:02:48,200 --> 01:02:53,080 mine better in this region. And, and, and essentially there 1076 01:02:53,080 --> 01:02:56,320 is a Black Swan event. There is a big correction in 1077 01:02:56,320 --> 01:02:57,920 price. Those that don't want that 1078 01:02:57,920 --> 01:03:00,480 Bitcoin anymore based upon that reality sell. 1079 01:03:00,760 --> 01:03:04,160 A lot of people will sell. Other people come along and say, 1080 01:03:04,160 --> 01:03:06,120 well, I'm in it for the long term, I'm going to buy. 1081 01:03:06,960 --> 01:03:10,000 And I know that this isn't systemic because none of the 1082 01:03:10,000 --> 01:03:13,560 rules of Bitcoin would change. It just means there's another 1083 01:03:13,560 --> 01:03:16,000 million to hit or Bitcoin to hit the market. 1084 01:03:16,000 --> 01:03:20,080 So at at the point, let's go to the extreme. 1085 01:03:20,080 --> 01:03:23,520 Firstly, I don't think it will happen because the person that I 1086 01:03:23,520 --> 01:03:25,720 believe can't move it. But let's say someone else found 1087 01:03:25,720 --> 01:03:28,600 those those private keys and was able to move it. 1088 01:03:29,160 --> 01:03:30,640 Or where they want to move it, you know? 1089 01:03:31,160 --> 01:03:34,680 Yeah, then they know it would or it was someone else that's got 1090 01:03:34,680 --> 01:03:35,760 it. Then they would know there would 1091 01:03:35,760 --> 01:03:38,880 be a big correction in the price as soon as they move, the market 1092 01:03:38,880 --> 01:03:42,440 would see that instantly that would crash the price. 1093 01:03:42,440 --> 01:03:46,880 That would re collaborate a lot of, as we discussed, you know, 1094 01:03:46,880 --> 01:03:52,240 with minors, some would suck that up and you know, some may 1095 01:03:52,240 --> 01:03:55,000 even do it as an OTC trade, you know, whatever it is. 1096 01:03:55,000 --> 01:03:58,160 But Satoshi would be known. There would be a whole bunch of 1097 01:03:58,160 --> 01:03:59,960 FUD around. Who is that character? 1098 01:04:01,520 --> 01:04:06,480 But already it is irrelevant. There's nothing Satoshi can do 1099 01:04:06,480 --> 01:04:09,560 to change the rules. So it's a distributed 1100 01:04:09,560 --> 01:04:15,760 supercomputer with open source code that is, you know, that has 1101 01:04:15,960 --> 01:04:19,520 a, you know, a way of contributing an upgrade in code 1102 01:04:19,520 --> 01:04:21,560 that has nothing to do with Satoshi. 1103 01:04:21,560 --> 01:04:25,560 So Satoshi has no impact, could not do anything. 1104 01:04:25,560 --> 01:04:29,560 The only thing Satoshi could do was move those coins and sell 1105 01:04:29,560 --> 01:04:33,320 those coins, which to me just impacts price and doesn't change 1106 01:04:33,320 --> 01:04:35,560 anything about the fundamentals of Bitcoin. 1107 01:04:35,880 --> 01:04:38,960 So to me, people like me would be like, hey, this is a great 1108 01:04:38,960 --> 01:04:45,240 opportunity to buy 10,000 more Bitcoin, you know, and other 1109 01:04:45,240 --> 01:04:48,160 people would see I think as an opportunity saying Bitcoin 1110 01:04:48,160 --> 01:04:51,160 doesn't change. But if we actually crash the 1111 01:04:51,160 --> 01:04:55,440 price down to something radical like $1000, there's so many 1112 01:04:55,440 --> 01:04:57,760 people that hold the belief in what that is, that they would 1113 01:04:57,760 --> 01:05:01,080 see this as a once in a lifetime opportunity to end up with a 1114 01:05:01,080 --> 01:05:04,920 bunch more Bitcoin. So it impacts price. 1115 01:05:04,920 --> 01:05:07,040 It doesn't fundamentally change anything. 1116 01:05:07,320 --> 01:05:10,440 It's factored into the equation right now, and I don't believe 1117 01:05:10,440 --> 01:05:14,040 it will happen, but it could. I fully agree. 1118 01:05:14,040 --> 01:05:16,560 I think this is also kind of like a flawed anti Bitcoin 1119 01:05:16,560 --> 01:05:21,160 argument because it's I think it's very Fiat thinking 1120 01:05:21,440 --> 01:05:26,040 actually, right? Like because what what you're 1121 01:05:26,040 --> 01:05:30,680 saying, yeah, it's just a huge supply coming online, but that's 1122 01:05:30,680 --> 01:05:34,160 basically it, right? So if you don't fully understand 1123 01:05:34,160 --> 01:05:37,800 what Bitcoin is, you might be distracted by this. 1124 01:05:37,800 --> 01:05:40,320 And then the price goes down and you'll give it up. 1125 01:05:42,840 --> 01:05:45,280 Even if that's why I mentioned quantum, right? 1126 01:05:45,280 --> 01:05:48,000 Because people are talking about like, OK, should we let all 1127 01:05:48,000 --> 01:05:51,840 these old addresses be hacked and actually have the supply, 1128 01:05:51,880 --> 01:05:53,720 the supply coming on to the market? 1129 01:05:55,000 --> 01:05:59,360 I, I, I tend to lean towards just that because that would be 1130 01:05:59,360 --> 01:06:04,040 the most organic way to get any stock Bitcoin, let's call them 1131 01:06:04,040 --> 01:06:10,200 stock Bitcoin back into circulation that that would be 1132 01:06:10,200 --> 01:06:13,000 the free market that I think we champion here, right? 1133 01:06:13,000 --> 01:06:17,040 So that that would just align and I think the price crash, I 1134 01:06:17,040 --> 01:06:19,680 think it would actually be a very interesting event if that 1135 01:06:19,680 --> 01:06:23,480 would be an anticipated event, you know, I think that would be 1136 01:06:23,480 --> 01:06:25,480 fairly entertaining actually to watch. 1137 01:06:25,560 --> 01:06:27,280 Yeah, let's get into it. Let's get it done. 1138 01:06:27,760 --> 01:06:28,920 Right. Yeah, I agree. 1139 01:06:29,120 --> 01:06:33,520 All right, if you have like 10 more minutes, I'll, I have a few 1140 01:06:33,520 --> 01:06:37,560 more fun questions that I think you would be perfect to to 1141 01:06:37,560 --> 01:06:40,480 answer. And I think the main one is we 1142 01:06:40,480 --> 01:06:44,000 talked about the security and the decentralization, right? 1143 01:06:44,000 --> 01:06:48,360 I think in the past there were lots of discussions around 51% 1144 01:06:48,360 --> 01:06:50,320 attack. You mentioned, you know how much 1145 01:06:50,320 --> 01:06:53,600 it cost for 10 minutes of control of the network. 1146 01:06:53,600 --> 01:06:59,600 I think estimates are around 10:10 billion plus, where I 1147 01:06:59,600 --> 01:07:01,720 think actually the conversation is interesting because you could 1148 01:07:01,720 --> 01:07:06,040 talk about, OK, do I want to spend 10 billion to mess with 1149 01:07:06,040 --> 01:07:08,600 the network for 10 minutes and then become irrelevant? 1150 01:07:08,600 --> 01:07:10,480 Or should I just buy 10 billion in Bitcoin? 1151 01:07:10,600 --> 01:07:15,560 You know, I think that that that trade off a risk reward question 1152 01:07:15,560 --> 01:07:19,840 already exists for any actor that would want to jeopardize 1153 01:07:19,840 --> 01:07:22,840 the integrity of the network for only 10 minutes, right? 1154 01:07:24,320 --> 01:07:27,440 But yeah, do do you think there could be some sort of 1155 01:07:28,880 --> 01:07:35,800 simultaneous ban or regulation or attack on Bitcoin by, let's 1156 01:07:35,800 --> 01:07:39,800 say state actors or even a commercial actor like, I don't 1157 01:07:39,800 --> 01:07:43,480 know, Google or something like is is there a relevant scenario 1158 01:07:43,480 --> 01:07:45,320 that goes through your mind there? 1159 01:07:46,080 --> 01:07:47,440 Yeah. So the fact that we're even 1160 01:07:47,440 --> 01:07:50,320 having this conversation shows the extreme level of 1161 01:07:50,320 --> 01:07:53,760 circumstances that people have fact that have to factor into 1162 01:07:53,760 --> 01:07:57,000 the equation of why Bitcoin might fundamentally change. 1163 01:07:58,000 --> 01:08:04,600 So let's go through one of those extreme circumstances, a known 1164 01:08:04,840 --> 01:08:08,640 attack vector called a 51% attack, which means it's more 1165 01:08:08,640 --> 01:08:12,680 like a 75% attack to do it in practicality. 1166 01:08:13,200 --> 01:08:18,000 But what it means is that if you can accumulate 50% or more of 1167 01:08:18,000 --> 01:08:23,920 the hash power, then you can, you can play a game where you 1168 01:08:23,920 --> 01:08:28,080 could end up stealing some Bitcoin, you know, writing a 1169 01:08:28,080 --> 01:08:30,520 version of the chain, verifying it yourself. 1170 01:08:30,920 --> 01:08:34,200 It's a theoretical attack. It has actually happened on all 1171 01:08:34,200 --> 01:08:37,120 other chains. It's never happened on Bitcoin. 1172 01:08:37,680 --> 01:08:40,840 So everything that tried to fork off from Bitcoin ended up being 1173 01:08:40,840 --> 01:08:43,640 51% attack. It's proven out to be a very 1174 01:08:43,640 --> 01:08:47,319 effective attack as showing the difference between Bitcoin and 1175 01:08:47,319 --> 01:08:50,319 the forks. People that try and a fork is 1176 01:08:50,319 --> 01:08:52,640 when you create a copy of Bitcoin like Bitcoin Cash, 1177 01:08:52,640 --> 01:08:54,960 Bitcoin SV are the famous examples. 1178 01:08:55,279 --> 01:08:58,600 They try and take the community with them, they try and take all 1179 01:08:58,600 --> 01:09:01,920 the miners with them and then you end up creating a 1180 01:09:01,920 --> 01:09:04,880 centralized mess that's 51% attacked, which is what's 1181 01:09:04,880 --> 01:09:09,040 happened every time, but it never happens with Bitcoin. 1182 01:09:09,479 --> 01:09:13,120 The reason it doesn't actually happen is because there is no 1183 01:09:13,120 --> 01:09:19,160 rational scenario by which you would attack the network to try 1184 01:09:19,160 --> 01:09:24,640 and create some fake Bitcoin to per scam an exchange and then 1185 01:09:24,640 --> 01:09:27,680 get that money off the exchange and then end up with more money 1186 01:09:27,680 --> 01:09:30,800 than the loss of value of trying to perform such an. 1187 01:09:30,800 --> 01:09:31,600 Impact. Exactly. 1188 01:09:31,920 --> 01:09:36,279 That would cost billions of dollars and you would have to 1189 01:09:36,279 --> 01:09:40,319 actually build the infrastructure or control the 1190 01:09:40,319 --> 01:09:45,560 infrastructure of over more than 50% of the miners, which at this 1191 01:09:45,560 --> 01:09:49,479 list stage, just so you know, we're at about 1000 extra hashes 1192 01:09:49,479 --> 01:09:53,479 per second. We are solving 1000 quadrillion 1193 01:09:53,479 --> 01:09:57,600 mass problems every second to secure this network. 1194 01:09:58,720 --> 01:10:01,120 There is never been anything like it. 1195 01:10:01,120 --> 01:10:05,560 It is incomparable to any the largest supercomputer in the 1196 01:10:05,560 --> 01:10:10,280 world, which it doesn't quite compare to is 1000 times less 1197 01:10:10,280 --> 01:10:13,880 powerful. And then any other proof of work 1198 01:10:13,880 --> 01:10:17,800 network is like a small, insignificant amount relative to 1199 01:10:18,480 --> 01:10:20,160 the amount that is secure in Bitcoin. 1200 01:10:20,160 --> 01:10:23,400 So that makes it harder and harder and harder and more 1201 01:10:23,400 --> 01:10:26,120 expensive to perform such an attack. 1202 01:10:26,520 --> 01:10:29,280 So then you have to look at the scenarios of, well, what if 1203 01:10:29,280 --> 01:10:33,320 somebody was doing it out of just trying to attack the 1204 01:10:33,320 --> 01:10:35,320 network? So what type of scenarios could 1205 01:10:35,320 --> 01:10:38,720 you imagine? Let's say the United States 1206 01:10:38,720 --> 01:10:43,200 government has already released an executive order by Trump to 1207 01:10:43,200 --> 01:10:45,040 build a Bitcoin strategic reserve. 1208 01:10:45,800 --> 01:10:50,240 So let's say America builds a Bitcoin strategic reserve and it 1209 01:10:50,240 --> 01:10:53,920 decides that it wants to own like over a million Bitcoin or 2 1210 01:10:53,920 --> 01:11:00,000 million Bitcoin to be to prop up its do a monetary reform and 1211 01:11:00,000 --> 01:11:03,440 transition to hard money. It would have to probably 1212 01:11:03,440 --> 01:11:05,560 nationalize a company like strategy. 1213 01:11:05,960 --> 01:11:09,240 It would have to do an executive order in order to confiscate all 1214 01:11:09,240 --> 01:11:11,360 the Bitcoin backing, the Bitcoin ETFs. 1215 01:11:12,040 --> 01:11:16,440 Then America could accumulate a couple of million Bitcoin and 1216 01:11:16,440 --> 01:11:20,680 control about 4%, not control, own about 4%. 1217 01:11:20,680 --> 01:11:23,880 And that's an important word in Bitcoin. 1218 01:11:23,880 --> 01:11:26,480 It's not proof at stake, which it's proof of work. 1219 01:11:26,480 --> 01:11:28,720 It means owning it doesn't mean control it. 1220 01:11:29,200 --> 01:11:31,320 I mean owning it means you can do stuff with it. 1221 01:11:31,320 --> 01:11:34,200 You can try and manipulate price, you can try and borrow 1222 01:11:34,200 --> 01:11:36,120 against it and create derivatives or whatever you 1223 01:11:36,120 --> 01:11:40,800 want, but you can't control it with proof of stake, which was a 1224 01:11:40,800 --> 01:11:43,800 competing model. Ownership equals a governance 1225 01:11:43,800 --> 01:11:47,160 vote in the network. And so if an, you know, if 1226 01:11:47,160 --> 01:11:50,360 somebody accumulates a massive position, they have all the 1227 01:11:50,360 --> 01:11:53,320 governance in that network. Bitcoin wasn't designed that 1228 01:11:53,320 --> 01:11:54,960 way. It was designed to not let this 1229 01:11:54,960 --> 01:11:57,680 happen. Which is Fiat basically, right? 1230 01:11:57,800 --> 01:12:01,840 That's that's Fiat basically. And maybe to add in Bitcoin, if 1231 01:12:01,840 --> 01:12:08,120 you decide to acquire Bitcoin as a nation or even as a company, I 1232 01:12:08,120 --> 01:12:10,480 think as a nation even more, you're also incentivized to 1233 01:12:10,480 --> 01:12:15,160 start mining to actually control a portion of the network work 1234 01:12:15,160 --> 01:12:20,200 that you can use to do your own transactions that, you know, 1235 01:12:20,440 --> 01:12:23,120 yeah, exactly, for example, doesn't have to approve for the 1236 01:12:23,160 --> 01:12:23,960 US. Yeah. 1237 01:12:23,960 --> 01:12:26,800 And if you look around the world like it's estimates, you can't 1238 01:12:26,800 --> 01:12:30,480 get exact, but about 40% of the hash power is in America, 1239 01:12:30,480 --> 01:12:34,360 distributed amongst 20 public companies, private miners and 1240 01:12:34,360 --> 01:12:37,800 various other things. About 21 percent is in China. 1241 01:12:39,040 --> 01:12:41,160 You know, you don't know who these miners are. 1242 01:12:41,800 --> 01:12:45,960 About 11 percent is done in Russia, there's about 6% in 1243 01:12:45,960 --> 01:12:48,120 Iran. And so these are all countries 1244 01:12:48,120 --> 01:12:50,960 that geopolitically and strategically are on the other 1245 01:12:50,960 --> 01:12:52,080 lines. You've got Europe, you've got 1246 01:12:52,080 --> 01:12:55,240 South America. So it's distributed where it's 1247 01:12:55,240 --> 01:12:58,440 it's impossible to coordinate. Then you have mining pools on 1248 01:12:58,440 --> 01:13:01,400 top of that, which is another distribution. 1249 01:13:01,800 --> 01:13:04,760 You know, we're, we're always working on trying to be better 1250 01:13:04,760 --> 01:13:07,880 and more decentralized. But still it's, it's impossible 1251 01:13:07,880 --> 01:13:11,600 to do a 51% attack unless you wanted to take down the network. 1252 01:13:11,600 --> 01:13:16,840 So then you would have to be in this scenario, Russia or someone 1253 01:13:16,840 --> 01:13:21,400 that wants to strategically take down the Bitcoin network in 1254 01:13:21,400 --> 01:13:24,960 order to crash the dollar because they've got 2 million 1255 01:13:24,960 --> 01:13:29,680 Bitcoin and America's transition to a hard money standard and 1256 01:13:29,680 --> 01:13:32,200 they want to crash the dollar by wiping out Bitcoin. 1257 01:13:33,160 --> 01:13:36,120 In this set of scenarios, they would have to print their 1258 01:13:36,120 --> 01:13:42,080 currency to accumulate such an amount of power to perform such 1259 01:13:42,080 --> 01:13:45,320 a 51% attack. And it would be more like a 70% 1260 01:13:45,320 --> 01:13:50,240 attack to get there and go unnoticed, which is impossible 1261 01:13:50,760 --> 01:13:53,920 because there's always adjustments to like, you know, 1262 01:13:53,920 --> 01:13:57,040 there was one example, a mining pool called G hash dot IO. 1263 01:13:57,600 --> 01:14:03,240 They started to approach about 40% of hash power at one time 1264 01:14:03,240 --> 01:14:05,920 way back in the day, I can't remember when it was maybe 14 or 1265 01:14:05,920 --> 01:14:09,040 something. And immediately once as soon as 1266 01:14:09,040 --> 01:14:11,360 it approached, everyone just started reallocating their 1267 01:14:11,360 --> 01:14:14,560 mining to a new pool. You know, we it just adjusts, it 1268 01:14:14,560 --> 01:14:18,840 adjusts to the reality. So if this were ever to happen, 1269 01:14:18,840 --> 01:14:23,520 then in theory, Russia could crash its own currency to try 1270 01:14:23,520 --> 01:14:30,360 and crash the Americans Bitcoin strategic reserve, when probably 1271 01:14:30,360 --> 01:14:34,760 it would have been just much, much better to actually start 1272 01:14:34,760 --> 01:14:38,720 mining and reallocating its energy to mining Bitcoin, build 1273 01:14:38,720 --> 01:14:44,120 its own position and compete. But that's the type of scenario 1274 01:14:44,600 --> 01:14:48,480 that would need to happen in order to theoretically perform 1275 01:14:48,480 --> 01:14:51,840 this 51% attack. And if you're not buying Bitcoin 1276 01:14:51,840 --> 01:14:55,760 because that might happen, then you just need to understand risk 1277 01:14:55,760 --> 01:15:00,080 rewards. Because, you know, if you think 1278 01:15:00,080 --> 01:15:03,960 that's a reason not to own Bitcoin, then you'll be the last 1279 01:15:03,960 --> 01:15:07,760 person in the world like Peter Schiff buying Bitcoin when you 1280 01:15:07,760 --> 01:15:11,560 realize every single problem in the world has done. 1281 01:15:11,560 --> 01:15:15,440 And by the way, there is never any asset class in the world 1282 01:15:15,960 --> 01:15:19,120 where every problem and every Black Swan event and everything 1283 01:15:19,680 --> 01:15:22,360 could disappear. But the level of extremity 1284 01:15:22,360 --> 01:15:26,320 that's required in order to allow for that scenario to 1285 01:15:26,320 --> 01:15:29,560 happen, I mean, I couldn't even put a probability on it. 1286 01:15:30,160 --> 01:15:33,600 Yeah, I think this is a whole different podcast, but that goes 1287 01:15:33,600 --> 01:15:37,120 towards, you know, the whole software theory of Jason Lowry, 1288 01:15:37,120 --> 01:15:40,600 you know the whole power projection trade off in this 1289 01:15:41,200 --> 01:15:44,280 example that that you are giving right? 1290 01:15:44,360 --> 01:15:46,680 Yeah. Should I print my own currency 1291 01:15:46,920 --> 01:15:52,520 by hardware to eventually perform this this attack or 1292 01:15:52,520 --> 01:15:56,400 should I just buy it conform to the rules of the Bitcoin network 1293 01:15:56,800 --> 01:16:01,080 and then, you know, gain value from that eventually? 1294 01:16:01,080 --> 01:16:03,840 I think that's very interesting just that that theory by itself. 1295 01:16:04,360 --> 01:16:09,080 All right, I think we went through a lot of things and I 1296 01:16:09,080 --> 01:16:10,480 want I want to thank you for your time. 1297 01:16:10,480 --> 01:16:14,080 I think it's really, really interesting to kind of go 1298 01:16:14,080 --> 01:16:17,480 through these arguments that that we hear a lot and hopefully 1299 01:16:17,880 --> 01:16:21,440 we unpack them a bit more with with with more rebuttals so, so 1300 01:16:21,440 --> 01:16:24,720 people can understand. Can I give the final one? 1301 01:16:24,760 --> 01:16:26,720 Can I get a bonus one? Of course. 1302 01:16:27,040 --> 01:16:32,400 Did the CIA create it? Well, the CIA did create some of 1303 01:16:32,400 --> 01:16:35,760 the cryptography technology that exists behind Bitcoin, but these 1304 01:16:35,760 --> 01:16:39,360 are open source libraries that the Federal Reserve, the whole 1305 01:16:39,360 --> 01:16:43,400 world relies upon. If you can crack these 1306 01:16:43,760 --> 01:16:49,120 cryptographies, then you know there is no back door because 1307 01:16:49,120 --> 01:16:50,840 it's a distributed supercomputer. 1308 01:16:50,840 --> 01:16:52,520 It doesn't matter who wrote the code. 1309 01:16:53,400 --> 01:16:57,440 It's got every type of developer that's been through all of these 1310 01:16:57,440 --> 01:17:00,720 audits. And, you know, this is the 1311 01:17:00,720 --> 01:17:05,440 entire Internet, the entire foundation of intelligence 1312 01:17:05,440 --> 01:17:10,040 agencies that don't want to leak information to each other, IE 1313 01:17:10,040 --> 01:17:14,320 the KGB and the CIA are using the same types of technologies. 1314 01:17:14,720 --> 01:17:18,840 And so if this is an issue for Bitcoin, it's also an issue for 1315 01:17:18,840 --> 01:17:21,440 the KGB. It's also an issue for Mossad. 1316 01:17:21,600 --> 01:17:25,560 It's also an issue for the CIA. It's also an issue for the 5IS. 1317 01:17:25,840 --> 01:17:28,320 And trust me, they don't want each other knowing each other's 1318 01:17:28,320 --> 01:17:33,000 information and so even if it was, we could change the version 1319 01:17:33,000 --> 01:17:35,520 of the cryptography. Which brings me to my final one. 1320 01:17:35,520 --> 01:17:40,400 What about quantum computing? Quantum computing is a known 1321 01:17:40,400 --> 01:17:45,320 Black Swan event that will happen in the future and it is a 1322 01:17:45,360 --> 01:17:48,840 global problem for the entire world to fix. 1323 01:17:48,840 --> 01:17:54,480 It's not unique to Bitcoin, but once the world has decided what 1324 01:17:54,480 --> 01:17:57,440 quantum resistant cryptography looks like, and there are many 1325 01:17:57,440 --> 01:18:01,920 people in the Bitcoin community working on this problem, it is 1326 01:18:01,920 --> 01:18:05,440 again one of those Black Swan events that would create 1327 01:18:05,440 --> 01:18:10,160 adjustments because we'd have to upgrade from SHA 256, which is a 1328 01:18:10,160 --> 01:18:13,880 version of cryptography that may not be quantum resistant in the 1329 01:18:13,880 --> 01:18:16,120 future. Then you have to adjust it to 1330 01:18:16,120 --> 01:18:19,840 quantum resistant cryptography, which is an area of computer 1331 01:18:19,840 --> 01:18:23,320 science that everybody's working on, which is used. 1332 01:18:23,360 --> 01:18:26,040 You know, it's a problem for everything you're talking about 1333 01:18:26,040 --> 01:18:30,080 Armageddon, nuclear power plants, nuclear weapons, the 1334 01:18:30,080 --> 01:18:33,240 Federal Reserve, you know, intelligence agencies, the 1335 01:18:33,240 --> 01:18:36,200 Internet, Google, everything breaking systemically. 1336 01:18:36,920 --> 01:18:39,240 That's when you want to own gold in that scenario. 1337 01:18:40,000 --> 01:18:45,320 But even Bitcoin has a mechanism where we would simply, we've 1338 01:18:45,320 --> 01:18:47,840 already hard fought. We know what that looks like. 1339 01:18:48,640 --> 01:18:53,080 It is disruptive event. It involves a a war, a civil war 1340 01:18:53,080 --> 01:18:57,800 online, but you switch to quantum resistant cryptography 1341 01:18:58,400 --> 01:19:00,920 and then the miners would actually have to upgrade their 1342 01:19:00,920 --> 01:19:02,520 equipment for that new cryptography. 1343 01:19:02,520 --> 01:19:05,840 So it would be a disruptive event, but it would be a similar 1344 01:19:05,840 --> 01:19:08,880 type of event where it doesn't break Bitcoin, it breaks the 1345 01:19:08,880 --> 01:19:12,280 whole world. And then we would adjust as the 1346 01:19:12,280 --> 01:19:17,040 whole world adjust to quantum resistant cryptography and it's 1347 01:19:17,040 --> 01:19:19,840 a Black Swan event that changes the dynamics and then Bitcoin 1348 01:19:19,840 --> 01:19:23,120 moves on. It would especially disrupt your 1349 01:19:23,120 --> 01:19:26,120 banking infrastructure. Written in COBOL software 1350 01:19:26,120 --> 01:19:30,520 language from the 1970s, right? I think you know, but when you 1351 01:19:30,520 --> 01:19:32,200 think about that, I fully agree. Maybe. 1352 01:19:32,200 --> 01:19:36,400 OK, I'll add one more. What about a global EMP attack 1353 01:19:36,640 --> 01:19:41,360 and or meteor impact? Yeah, well, look, if if the 1354 01:19:41,400 --> 01:19:44,960 Internet gets taken down, we've worked on satellites and various 1355 01:19:44,960 --> 01:19:48,560 other infrastructure. But at that stage there is a 1356 01:19:48,560 --> 01:19:51,800 role for gold. And the role for gold is that if 1357 01:19:51,800 --> 01:19:56,320 we move into the whole entire digital system blowing up, 1358 01:19:57,040 --> 01:19:59,360 firstly, we're probably dead. We're probably beating each 1359 01:19:59,360 --> 01:20:01,240 other up. And rather than using your gold 1360 01:20:01,240 --> 01:20:04,120 to store your value, you're probably using it to get people 1361 01:20:04,120 --> 01:20:06,600 out of your house and knocking them out because everyone's 1362 01:20:06,600 --> 01:20:11,080 trying to steal your gold. So there is a level of you know 1363 01:20:11,160 --> 01:20:15,160 and that is there is a role of the physical world in case the 1364 01:20:15,160 --> 01:20:18,880 whole digital infrastructure in the world as we know it today 1365 01:20:18,880 --> 01:20:20,360 and you just happen to survive that. 1366 01:20:20,880 --> 01:20:23,280 Yeah, I agree. I always, I call these like the 1367 01:20:23,280 --> 01:20:26,680 end of the road arguments. Whenever people say it to me, I 1368 01:20:26,680 --> 01:20:30,840 say like, OK, if I, if I answer this properly, will you get into 1369 01:20:30,840 --> 01:20:33,640 Bitcoin, right? Because there is no other bigger 1370 01:20:33,640 --> 01:20:36,480 anti argument than the EMP or the comet impact. 1371 01:20:36,480 --> 01:20:39,680 And yes, I I do use, you know, there's satellite in satellites 1372 01:20:39,680 --> 01:20:43,720 in space that run Bitcoin. So even if we get down to two 1373 01:20:43,720 --> 01:20:48,760 nodes that verify the truth letter, the time chain here, 1374 01:20:48,920 --> 01:20:53,560 after some time when you know more and more people connect to 1375 01:20:53,560 --> 01:20:57,040 this network again, it basically still survived, right? 1376 01:20:57,040 --> 01:21:00,040 And I think that's a nice loop back to the beginning. 1377 01:21:00,040 --> 01:21:02,840 You have to be able to conceptualize that and connect 1378 01:21:02,840 --> 01:21:05,600 that I think also to the probability of the event to then 1379 01:21:05,600 --> 01:21:08,520 make your decision, you know, whether Bitcoin will survive 1380 01:21:08,520 --> 01:21:10,960 something like that. So, yeah, thanks man. 1381 01:21:10,960 --> 01:21:13,480 Thanks so much for for your insights here. 1382 01:21:13,480 --> 01:21:17,240 I I hope it's valuable for our audience watching. 1383 01:21:17,240 --> 01:21:19,360 And yeah, man, it was great talking. 1384 01:21:19,360 --> 01:21:21,360 So thanks again. Awesome. 1385 01:21:21,360 --> 01:21:24,480 I just say get off 0 man. The best way to learn this stuff 1386 01:21:24,480 --> 01:21:27,320 is to do it. If you're on zero Bitcoin trying 1387 01:21:27,320 --> 01:21:31,240 to have all of these problems solved, the best thing to do is 1388 01:21:31,240 --> 01:21:33,760 say, what allocation am I comfortable with right now? 1389 01:21:34,360 --> 01:21:36,640 Get off 0. Learn what it's like to earn 1390 01:21:36,640 --> 01:21:39,560 your own money, spend your own money and have a monetary policy 1391 01:21:39,560 --> 01:21:42,400 you can rely upon. Play around with it, send it to 1392 01:21:42,400 --> 01:21:45,560 your wife, send it to yourself, secure it for yourself. 1393 01:21:46,280 --> 01:21:50,080 And even if all you did is say, I'm going to buy a little bit of 1394 01:21:50,080 --> 01:21:52,440 that every month for the next 4 years. 1395 01:21:52,440 --> 01:21:55,680 Every single person in the world that has done that has 1396 01:21:55,720 --> 01:21:59,600 outperformed every single asset class that has ever existed and 1397 01:21:59,600 --> 01:22:03,000 I think is irresponsible not to hedge for. 1398 01:22:03,000 --> 01:22:07,200 Maybe Bitcoin may just succeed. Good and agree more. 1399 01:22:07,400 --> 01:22:08,520 That's a great enter. Thank you. 1400 01:22:08,800 --> 01:22:11,640 I hope you enjoyed this episode. If you did, you can click here 1401 01:22:11,640 --> 01:22:15,000 to find more just like it and click here to find all Bitcoin 1402 01:22:15,000 --> 01:22:17,040 for millennials podcast episodes. 1403 01:22:17,400 --> 01:22:20,560 Also, please like this video if you want to help shine a light 1404 01:22:20,560 --> 01:22:23,560 on the message of Bitcoin and subscribe to my channel to stay 1405 01:22:23,560 --> 01:22:25,760 connected. I hope to see you for a next 1406 01:22:25,760 --> 01:22:26,760 episode. Bye.