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All right. 
Hey there. 

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This is Bob Constant and you're 
listening to Bitcoin for 

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Millennials. 
Together with my guests on this 

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podcast, I go on a journey to 
discover how our current 

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financial system works, why it's
flawed, and why Bitcoin is the 

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most relevant technology that 
you should understand and adopt.

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In this episode I'm joined by 
Zack and Art. 

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He runs education for Thea AY 
combinator backed startup 

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providing the world's simplest 
Bitcoin multi sick and self 

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custody service. 
He's also a student of economics

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at the University of Victoria 
and prolific writer with his own

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publication, The Bit Economist 
on Sub Stack. 

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Welcome, Zach. 
Thanks for having me. 

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Thanks for coming on. 
I I enjoy. 

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I enjoyed your writing and one 
of the goals with this podcast 

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is to just have lots of 
different bitcoiners on and here

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about you know their learnings 
and and in your case your 

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writings and yeah man I'm super 
happy you you're here. 

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Like I I would love to talk 
about, like one of the articles 

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you wrote, which is about, you 
know, breaking down myths around

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Bitcoin. 
But first I wanted to ask you 

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like which generation do you 
belong to? 

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Because I think you're quite a 
bit younger than me. 

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Yeah. 
So I am part of Gen. 

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Z1 of the older people in this 
generation. 

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So I think it spans from like 97
to to the 2000 tens or so. 

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OK, yeah, And do you find it 
hard to, like, help your 

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generation understand Bitcoin? 
I think there are. 

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Positive and negatives to it. 
So one of the things that makes 

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Bitcoin much more accessible to 
our, to my generation is the 

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fact that we've grown up in a 
very digitally native way. 

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So we we witnessed the advent of
of most of the largest social 

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media companies as well as just 
basically the digitization of of

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everything from our photos to 
writing, you know, to emails to 

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to movies to TV to music. 
Everything is now just within 

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reach on our smartphones. 
So from that perspective. 

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Bitcoin I think is relatively 
easy to understand, but even 

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still, I think there's a big 
barrier around education, 

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especially in Canada. 
I can speak from experience in 

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the in the public education 
system here that we don't really

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learn at all about. 
We don't really get any 

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financial literacy, we don't 
learn about finance or 

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economics. 
And even if you get to the 

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university level, it's something
you really only learn about if 

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you are choosing to study a 
degree related related to these 

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fields. 
So. 

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Yeah. 
It's a little it's a little it's

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difficult but it's also like the
there are, there are there's 

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yeah, we we we have a certain 
amount of knowledge already that

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that does help. 
Yeah. 

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Yeah. 
What I find interesting is that 

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like for my generation, I think 
what people and and this was one

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of the things when it also 
really clicked for me, how 

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special Bitcoin is that, you 
know you can actually own 

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something which is digital but 
true its nature like how it's 

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engineered, it's actually 
almost, I say physical or 

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tangible, right. 
The fact that that digital thing

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you own, you know, one bit one 
Bitcoin for example, is actually

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in your possession. 
It's not stored anywhere or 

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whatever just because you have 
access to it with your private 

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key, it's verifiably yours. 
And because you can store it in 

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your head, that's when I call it
tangible, right? 

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But I think that's where most 
people kind of, like, have a cut

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off in understanding if that 
makes sense, right. 

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Because everything we know up 
until now, and I think also for 

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your generation, it's like, 
yeah, digital, like everything 

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can be copied. 
Everything can be shared. 

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It's like an infinite way of 
doing so, like, how do you look 

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at that? 
Like would you also say it's 

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tangible or what? 
What? 

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What's the word you use? 
Yeah, I would agree with you 

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there. 
It's kind of strikes this this 

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weird balance where it's both 
digital in nature but also has 

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tangible qualities and exists 
kind of in the physical world, 

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both through the way new 
bitcoins are created with 

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Bitcoin mining, but also through
the way that we store our seed 

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phrases. 
So when you, you know, you open 

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a Bitcoin wallet and you get 
those 12 words and those 

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represent your Bitcoin and 
that's a physical representation

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of your Bitcoin and and and 
those words are what give you 

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access to it. 
So it definitely has both these 

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tangible and digital qualities. 
And it kind of takes the best, 

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the best of both worlds. 
Almost. 

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Yeah. 
It's actually interesting when 

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you say, like you let's say you 
write down those words, right? 

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That's like the access key to 
your Bitcoin. 

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I kind of have like this 
cashier's check feeling, right? 

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Like because it's, it could be 
like a very, it's like a very 

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viable, viable code, right? 
You could have it like written 

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down and then you could check 
online or just digitally. 

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You can check if you actually, 
if that code actually gives 

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access to, you know, a Bitcoin. 
So I'm gonna start using that 

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actually. 
Like, I think that's great 

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because that's not with any 
other things, right. 

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That's not with digital photos. 
It's not with music. 

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Or like, you cannot verify that 
ownership. 

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Yeah, you can show it on your 
computer, but then you always 

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have to take your computer, 
right. 

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OK, let's. 
I'll think about that. 

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That's that's fun. 
Yeah. 

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So you wrote an article called 
Bitcoin Myths and breaking down 

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the Most Common misconceptions. 
I would love to go like through 

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it, but what made you like? 
What inspired you to to write 

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the article? 
Yeah, totally. 

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Well, I was mostly inspired to 
write that article because I 

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think Bitcoin is something that 
everyone has heard about at this

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point, especially over the last 
couple years over the during the

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pandemic and things like that, 
we kind of like it was almost 

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like a a leap forward in the 
digital nature of everything 

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that we're doing. 
You know people went online to 

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to. 
To do work through zoom and 

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things like that and then 
Bitcoin really broke onto the 

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scenes for for the for more like
mainstream public. 

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And so given that that had 
happened everyone kind of knows 

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what Bitcoin is. 
But I think very few people have

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actually taken the time to 
research it. 

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Like beyond kind of just what 
the narrative is around like 

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media, what they say about 
Bitcoin or what political 

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figures are saying about 
Bitcoin, I think it's really 

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important to. 
Research it on your own and and 

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come to your own conclusions. 
And so that was kind of one of 

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the reasons I wrote this 
article, because there's a lot 

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of narratives around Bitcoin 
that are simply not true and are

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a result of the fact that people
haven't done enough research to 

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understand how Bitcoin works. 
And so that's why I often say 

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that I think Bitcoin is one of 
the most misunderstood 

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technologies of our time. 
Yeah, I think so too. 

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I I I think I once tweeted 
something like if you're if 

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you're really progressive and 
care like about the environment 

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you should definitely research 
Bitcoin. 

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You know like it's just I find 
it so interesting that 

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especially that side there's no 
one who is like an outspoken 

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let's say environmentalist 
besides maybe Daniel Batten on 

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on on Twitter. 
You know who is talking about 

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this. 
And and and I fully agree with 

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with what you say like it's hard
to understand Bitcoin but I 

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think there's so many yeah 
there's so many people with very

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strong opinions but they're kind
of loosely held in a sense that 

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I don't know if you ever 
encountered like a legitimate 

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Bitcoin counter arguments. 
We can talk about that later but

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I find it very hard to actually 
find them. 

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Right. 
Like it's more feelings or you 

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know these these simple thoughts
like how do you see that And I 

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think it's actually bad. 
Right. 

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Like it, it fuels skepticism and
and and also adoption. 

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While you know you, me and and 
lots of other people know that 

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this is a a revolutionary thing 
in the sense. 

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Yeah, absolutely. 
I think we're kind of living in 

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this age where like opinions and
beliefs have kind of become 

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almost as relevant as as like 
cold, hard facts. 

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And I I don't really know how 
that happened. 

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But yeah, I definitely noticed 
it as well. 

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And it's definitely a big 
problem because it it fosters 

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misinformation and false 
narratives about things that 

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actually can be really helpful 
to the world. 

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Like Bitcoin. 
Yeah. 

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All right. 
So the first one that you that 

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you talk about is Bitcoin is a 
Ponzi scheme. 

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I love. 
I love that when people tell 

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tell that to me on on Twitter. 
How, how does how does Bitcoin 

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set itself apart from Ponzi 
schemes? 

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You you talk about like open 
source, nature, transparency, 

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the open, you know, the full 
accessibility. 

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Basically, yeah, how would you 
bust the Bitcoin is a Ponzi 

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myth. 
Yeah, totally. 

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So I think it's important to 
understand like what what a 

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Ponzi scheme is. 
So a Ponzi scheme is sort of is 

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an investment scheme where 
basically. 

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New money is taken from from new
investors coming into the 

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investment scheme and it's 
funneled up to other investors 

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and some of them keep a little 
bit of money for themselves And 

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these sorts of schemes they rely
a lot on secrecy to obfuscate 

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the fraud that they're 
committing. 

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So they're they're not open at 
all in nature and they often 

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make promises of things like 
high returns and little risk and

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so when you when you take into 
these account. 

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Into these, these factors of of 
what a Ponzi scheme is and then 

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you look at what Bitcoin is, you
can see that they are very 

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distinctly different. 
So we're we're a Ponzi scheme 

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sometimes, right? 
Like, because when people say 

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like Bitcoin is the future, it's
going up forever, etcetera. 

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Like I you know, these could be 
the same words used by people in

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a Ponzi scheme in a sense, 
right? 

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Yes, I hear what you're saying 
there, but I think I think we 

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get sometimes people get a 
little carried away as with any 

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investment. 
Bitcoin has the potential for 

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very high returns, but it's also
accompanied by the possibility 

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of financial loss. 
I think that that is just a how 

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investing works. 
And as much as I'm very 

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confident in the future of 
Bitcoin, nobody knows the future

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exactly, so you probably 
shouldn't trust anybody telling 

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you that. 
But also so for example, Ponzi 

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schemes also tend to benefit 
insiders, right? 

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So Bitcoin contradicts that 
notion very heavily. 

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Because when Bitcoin came onto 
the scene in 2009. 

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It was not initially distributed
to insiders or anything like 

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that. 
Right from the get go it was 

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open to anyone. 
They anyone could mine Bitcoin 

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and obtain some coins for 
themselves. 

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Ultimately who got to do that or
not was based on just who was 

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paying enough attention or who 
heard about it. 

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So it's a very fair and 
inclusive launch. 

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Whereas with with Ponzi schemes 
you would have money coming in 

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favoring insiders and then when 
those those insiders cash out of

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that investment scheme that that
tends to collapse. 

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Which again I think Bitcoin kind
of contradicts that as well 

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because we've seen for almost 15
years now Bitcoins gone through 

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market cycles. 
It's gone through ups and downs,

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but it continuously recovers and
makes a new all time high and I 

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think that's sort of reflecting 
the the growing strength and 

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resilience of the underlying 
network. 

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And then finally, of course, 
Ponzi schemes rely on a lot of 

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secrecy. 
They they don't want you to know

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what's exactly happening to the 
money behind the scenes. 

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They're just saying give me your
money and I will invest it and 

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get you really high returns. 
With Bitcoin, it is, it is very 

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transparent. 
So in in two different ways. 

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One is that it's open source 
code, so anyone can verify the 

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Bitcoin code itself. 
Verify the code that you're 

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running when you run a node. 
And then as well the the Bitcoin

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blockchain is is an immutable, 
transparent Ledger of of all the

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Bitcoin transactions that have 
ever happened. 

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So the idea that it it is in no 
way like secretive, it's very, 

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very open. 
It's open to screw me in an 

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entire point. 
It's the entire point, right? 

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Yeah, yeah. 
But why do you think people say 

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that? 
Like I I I get it in replies. 

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I think. 
I think people focus more on 

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like the investment part, quote 
UN quote of it, right, that you 

230
00:12:06,860 --> 00:12:10,300
can actually buy it. 
And then when someone, well, I 

231
00:12:10,300 --> 00:12:14,540
say to someone like talk about 
the value going up or something 

232
00:12:14,540 --> 00:12:18,380
and then then they kind of throw
this in, right? 

233
00:12:18,380 --> 00:12:21,420
Like, yeah, you you just want 
the next sucker to buy it or 

234
00:12:21,420 --> 00:12:24,260
something like, but it's also 
kind of where that stops, right.

235
00:12:24,260 --> 00:12:27,980
Like the definitions that you 
just gave, I've never seen a 

236
00:12:28,020 --> 00:12:31,620
company, you know this this 
argument being accompanied with,

237
00:12:32,180 --> 00:12:35,120
right? 
Yeah. 

238
00:12:35,120 --> 00:12:39,400
So perhaps it's kind of an 
education thing in the sense on 

239
00:12:39,480 --> 00:12:42,160
both sides of the subjects that 
we're talking about. 

240
00:12:42,960 --> 00:12:46,560
I think there's something to be 
said about like possibly the way

241
00:12:46,560 --> 00:12:50,000
that a lot of people promote 
Bitcoin, Like it invokes a lot 

242
00:12:50,000 --> 00:12:53,240
of passion in individuals, and 
that can result in people just 

243
00:12:53,240 --> 00:12:56,840
being very forward about it. 
And I think that that 

244
00:12:57,080 --> 00:12:59,600
forwardness can also kind of 
come off as like. 

245
00:13:00,580 --> 00:13:02,620
This is a little this seems 
fake. 

246
00:13:02,620 --> 00:13:05,580
This seems too good to be true 
or or whatever, right? 

247
00:13:06,860 --> 00:13:08,420
And the truth is, it's not too 
good to be true. 

248
00:13:08,420 --> 00:13:10,500
It actually is. 
It's true and it's that good, 

249
00:13:10,940 --> 00:13:12,700
which is, which is totally 
crazy. 

250
00:13:13,860 --> 00:13:16,220
But, but that's kind of how you 
realize when you've looked into 

251
00:13:16,220 --> 00:13:18,300
it more. 
Yeah, I agree. 

252
00:13:18,300 --> 00:13:21,860
I think it also is kind of like 
I, I I think this episode is 

253
00:13:21,860 --> 00:13:24,660
gonna be really good, but that 
we talked about this. 

254
00:13:24,660 --> 00:13:28,260
And then what I think is 
interesting is that I now think 

255
00:13:28,260 --> 00:13:33,990
it should invoke something in 
you when you hear someone so 

256
00:13:34,310 --> 00:13:37,910
passionately talk about anything
in general, right? 

257
00:13:38,270 --> 00:13:40,910
If someone says like, OK, I 
don't know. 

258
00:13:40,910 --> 00:13:43,630
Sometimes I take myself in this 
as an example, like, I, I don't 

259
00:13:43,630 --> 00:13:46,990
know, I spent 10 less, 10 years 
on and off learning about this. 

260
00:13:46,990 --> 00:13:48,630
Right. 
Is it 10,000 hours? 

261
00:13:48,950 --> 00:13:51,110
I don't know. 
Probably more, you know. 

262
00:13:51,110 --> 00:13:56,200
And when I encounter people who 
I know have been spending more 

263
00:13:56,200 --> 00:14:00,240
time but also have, for example,
a sort of career in finance or 

264
00:14:00,240 --> 00:14:02,920
something, you know, and they 
say like, well, I mentioned Greg

265
00:14:02,920 --> 00:14:05,480
Foss a lot, right? 
He says, I've been 35 years in 

266
00:14:05,480 --> 00:14:07,280
the risk chair. 
I've seen all these things. 

267
00:14:08,080 --> 00:14:11,640
Bitcoin is the best asset that 
I've ever come across, right? 

268
00:14:11,640 --> 00:14:15,000
Like that sparks something in me
where I think like, OK, I want 

269
00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:19,720
to understand why this guy, you 
know with this track record says

270
00:14:19,720 --> 00:14:22,220
something like this. 
You know, instead of thinking, 

271
00:14:22,220 --> 00:14:25,660
well he must be talking shit or 
supporting a policy in a sense, 

272
00:14:27,300 --> 00:14:32,620
yeah, well the next myth is 
Bitcoin is too volatile to 

273
00:14:32,620 --> 00:14:37,340
function as money, right? 
And you argue that the 

274
00:14:37,340 --> 00:14:40,220
volatility is is a natural 
aspect of price discovery, 

275
00:14:40,220 --> 00:14:42,860
right? 
People are are investigating 

276
00:14:42,860 --> 00:14:46,720
what could this be worth and you
also mentioned the term 

277
00:14:46,720 --> 00:14:48,880
monetization. 
I read that before. 

278
00:14:48,880 --> 00:14:51,640
Maybe you can explain that like 
what that actually means. 

279
00:14:51,640 --> 00:14:56,320
I think as it as it is getting 
valued, I would say something 

280
00:14:56,320 --> 00:14:59,160
something like that that's would
be my explainer right now. 

281
00:15:00,360 --> 00:15:01,720
Yeah. 
So, So what is this? 

282
00:15:01,720 --> 00:15:05,760
And and you know what will lead 
to a reduction in volatility or 

283
00:15:05,840 --> 00:15:07,800
will it stay like this? 
Totally. 

284
00:15:07,880 --> 00:15:11,840
So yeah, I I think I'd love to 
start by just saying like. 

285
00:15:13,210 --> 00:15:17,570
The idea that Bitcoin is 
volatile, I can understand that 

286
00:15:17,570 --> 00:15:20,130
people would be turned off by 
that as an investment. 

287
00:15:20,490 --> 00:15:22,810
Most people don't want to see 
the fluctuation of their wealth 

288
00:15:23,290 --> 00:15:28,210
to sweat it to quite a large 
degree, but I think it's also 

289
00:15:28,210 --> 00:15:30,730
important to recognize that 
volatility is not. 

290
00:15:31,400 --> 00:15:34,840
Intrinsic characteristic of 
Bitcoin as a technology but 

291
00:15:34,840 --> 00:15:38,000
rather a reflection of its young
and evolving nature. 

292
00:15:38,240 --> 00:15:42,280
The fact that it is a truly free
market and also the fact that 

293
00:15:42,280 --> 00:15:44,600
there's a lot of speculation of 
the Bitcoin space because it's 

294
00:15:44,600 --> 00:15:47,840
such a new technology. 
So often these these price 

295
00:15:47,840 --> 00:15:50,680
corrections where we see massive
run UPS in price and and then 

296
00:15:50,680 --> 00:15:55,360
massive crashes is also driven 
by people over leveraging and 

297
00:15:55,400 --> 00:15:57,760
and leveraging long or 
leveraging short on either 

298
00:15:57,760 --> 00:15:59,520
direction which causes much more
violent. 

299
00:16:00,660 --> 00:16:05,140
Price fluctuations in Bitcoin, 
but it's not necessarily a part 

300
00:16:05,140 --> 00:16:11,060
of what Bitcoin is. 
And if we look at one of the 

301
00:16:11,060 --> 00:16:13,020
reasons I think people are also 
really turned off by this is 

302
00:16:13,020 --> 00:16:17,820
because is the idea that that 
the volatility is kind of part 

303
00:16:17,820 --> 00:16:20,060
of the the price discoveries 
phase of Bitcoin. 

304
00:16:20,060 --> 00:16:23,060
So Bitcoin is undergoing 
monetization as we speak. 

305
00:16:23,060 --> 00:16:25,740
The market is trying to figure 
out how to properly price 

306
00:16:25,740 --> 00:16:27,420
Bitcoin. 
What is it? 

307
00:16:27,420 --> 00:16:32,760
What is its equilibrium value? 
And and I can understand why 

308
00:16:32,760 --> 00:16:35,640
people find that kind of off 
putting because no one alive 

309
00:16:35,640 --> 00:16:37,600
today has actually ever 
witnessed the real time 

310
00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:40,240
monetization of a good. 
So really this is like the last 

311
00:16:40,240 --> 00:16:43,480
time this would have happened 
was probably with with gold and 

312
00:16:43,480 --> 00:16:46,840
obviously no one alive today 
witnessed gold become money. 

313
00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:49,560
Whereas we are actually 
witnessing in real time Bitcoin 

314
00:16:49,560 --> 00:16:54,760
becoming a dominant medium of 
exchange in the world, which I 

315
00:16:54,760 --> 00:16:58,480
think it is is really cool and 
that's also part of why it is so

316
00:16:58,480 --> 00:17:02,380
volatile. 
And then also I think it's also 

317
00:17:02,380 --> 00:17:05,099
important to recognize that 
while Bitcoin is volatile, it 

318
00:17:05,099 --> 00:17:07,339
experiences strong price 
fluctuations. 

319
00:17:07,859 --> 00:17:10,260
It is consistently recovered and
reached new all time high. 

320
00:17:11,099 --> 00:17:13,740
So I think it's more accurately 
characterized as being like 

321
00:17:13,740 --> 00:17:17,780
upward volatility. 
So even though it is changing in

322
00:17:17,780 --> 00:17:22,940
price a lot, it continues to go 
up in value and then 

323
00:17:23,339 --> 00:17:26,660
additionally. 
Volatility in Bitcoin has been 

324
00:17:26,660 --> 00:17:28,740
decreasing over time. 
So if you you can look at the 

325
00:17:28,740 --> 00:17:32,860
Bitcoin volatility index and it 
basically measures the the the 

326
00:17:32,860 --> 00:17:35,620
standard deviation of of of 
moves in the in the price of 

327
00:17:35,620 --> 00:17:38,500
Bitcoin over time. 
And you can see over it's 14 

328
00:17:38,500 --> 00:17:41,140
year existence it has 
significantly decreased in 

329
00:17:41,140 --> 00:17:44,540
volatility. 
And I think this is a reflection

330
00:17:44,540 --> 00:17:46,220
of the fact that the market is 
maturing. 

331
00:17:46,740 --> 00:17:48,460
There is growing liquidity in 
Bitcoin. 

332
00:17:48,460 --> 00:17:50,710
There's a growing investor base.
And these things are 

333
00:17:50,710 --> 00:17:54,270
contributing to the maturation 
of Bitcoin as an asset and that 

334
00:17:54,270 --> 00:17:56,790
decreasing involve the 
decreasing volatility. 

335
00:17:57,470 --> 00:18:01,270
So I think as as time goes 
forward, as more investors come 

336
00:18:01,270 --> 00:18:05,230
to the Bitcoin network, as 
liquidity grows, we're probably 

337
00:18:05,230 --> 00:18:08,230
going to see volatility decrease
even further. 

338
00:18:09,310 --> 00:18:13,150
Yeah, yeah, I very, very good 
points. 

339
00:18:13,150 --> 00:18:17,590
I think the point about this is 
something none of us has ever 

340
00:18:17,950 --> 00:18:20,510
witnessed before. 
I think is a is a very good 

341
00:18:20,510 --> 00:18:23,150
point. 
I have not thought about that 

342
00:18:23,150 --> 00:18:27,110
before. 
I I actually it's not not along 

343
00:18:27,110 --> 00:18:30,230
the same lines. 
But what I think is that people 

344
00:18:30,230 --> 00:18:35,950
don't know, like at what 
timeline this should judge this,

345
00:18:36,270 --> 00:18:38,230
right? 
And especially currently, 

346
00:18:38,430 --> 00:18:41,350
everything is on demand. 
Everything happens when you want

347
00:18:41,350 --> 00:18:42,550
it. 
You know, you have instant 

348
00:18:42,550 --> 00:18:47,450
gratification and there's no 
real patience currently in the 

349
00:18:47,450 --> 00:18:49,650
world, right? 
Like most people don't have any 

350
00:18:49,650 --> 00:18:52,450
patience. 
And when you mentioned this is 

351
00:18:52,450 --> 00:18:54,970
something that most people 
haven't seen before. 

352
00:18:54,970 --> 00:18:57,090
But combine that with no 
patience, right. 

353
00:18:57,090 --> 00:19:01,730
That's why I think this argument
also comes up a lot, right? 

354
00:19:03,370 --> 00:19:06,410
Because as an answer to when 
someone says, like, Bitcoin is 

355
00:19:06,410 --> 00:19:08,970
too volatile, then I also think,
yeah, but what do you, what is 

356
00:19:08,970 --> 00:19:11,650
the other side like? 
Like, what do you expect from 

357
00:19:11,650 --> 00:19:12,930
that? 
Like what is the other side that

358
00:19:12,930 --> 00:19:18,140
does something just get invented
and then instant this is what it

359
00:19:18,140 --> 00:19:20,260
were. 
This is what it's worth, right? 

360
00:19:20,260 --> 00:19:23,980
Like I I don't think it happens 
like like that. 

361
00:19:24,500 --> 00:19:25,500
How does it happen? 
Yeah. 

362
00:19:25,500 --> 00:19:27,540
We don't know right. 
That's why it goes up and down 

363
00:19:27,540 --> 00:19:31,100
and maybe, yeah, it it takes, we
don't know how long it's gonna 

364
00:19:31,100 --> 00:19:34,950
take. 
So yeah, that's kind of how I 

365
00:19:34,950 --> 00:19:36,310
sometimes view it. 
Like what? 

366
00:19:36,310 --> 00:19:38,590
What do you think about that? 
Like that, that short time 

367
00:19:38,590 --> 00:19:40,510
frame, basically, that a lot of 
people have. 

368
00:19:40,590 --> 00:19:43,310
Absolutely. 
I think, I mean Safedine touches

369
00:19:43,310 --> 00:19:47,110
on this a lot and just the idea 
that basically people have very 

370
00:19:47,630 --> 00:19:51,070
high time preferences right now.
They want instant gratification.

371
00:19:51,070 --> 00:19:55,350
We, we, we there's rampant 
consumerism president and 

372
00:19:55,350 --> 00:19:59,350
cultures around the world. 
And yeah, to your point, like 

373
00:19:59,350 --> 00:20:01,910
something like this something 
does not just become money 

374
00:20:01,910 --> 00:20:04,080
overnight. 
Something doesn't even become an

375
00:20:04,080 --> 00:20:06,000
asset overnight. 
It takes time. 

376
00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:10,200
It takes especially with an 
emerging digital network it's 

377
00:20:10,200 --> 00:20:13,440
going to take time for people 
that kind of place their trust 

378
00:20:13,440 --> 00:20:15,720
in it. 
I so I I remember reading one 

379
00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:18,800
time that I think that like it's
around 20 years after a digital 

380
00:20:18,800 --> 00:20:23,280
network launches that people 
begin to think of it as being 

381
00:20:23,280 --> 00:20:25,760
there forever. 
So we passed that point a little

382
00:20:25,760 --> 00:20:29,080
while ago with the Internet and 
most people believe that the 

383
00:20:29,080 --> 00:20:30,840
Internet is is always going to 
be here. 

384
00:20:30,840 --> 00:20:33,480
I think that's a pretty 
reasonable assumption and we're 

385
00:20:33,480 --> 00:20:35,600
kind of nearing that point now 
with Bitcoin. 

386
00:20:36,000 --> 00:20:39,120
So as long as Bitcoin continues 
to function as intended, as it 

387
00:20:39,120 --> 00:20:43,960
has for the last almost 15 
years, I think people will place

388
00:20:43,960 --> 00:20:47,240
more confidence and bestow more 
trust in the protocol, in the 

389
00:20:47,240 --> 00:20:51,200
network. 
And yeah, like that'll that'll 

390
00:20:51,200 --> 00:20:54,640
that'll help drastically, yeah. 
I think that coincides with the 

391
00:20:54,640 --> 00:20:57,880
tweet I saw yesterday because 
yeah, that that 20 years, right 

392
00:20:57,880 --> 00:21:02,470
Then there's grown-ups adults. 
Who have not lived in a world 

393
00:21:02,470 --> 00:21:07,150
without Bitcoin, right. 
So it's always been there and 

394
00:21:08,830 --> 00:21:12,750
well they probably won't have 
like you know the capital to to 

395
00:21:12,750 --> 00:21:15,950
buy it or whatever. 
Like they just know that it's it

396
00:21:15,950 --> 00:21:18,670
has has been there all their 
lives, right? 

397
00:21:18,670 --> 00:21:24,270
And then from there on, I also 
think that that adoption would 

398
00:21:24,270 --> 00:21:28,230
be. 
Not easier in a sense, but more 

399
00:21:28,230 --> 00:21:30,390
people would probably be 
educated on it. 

400
00:21:30,390 --> 00:21:34,110
Hopefully more people, the more 
people get educated on Bitcoin 

401
00:21:34,110 --> 00:21:37,470
that are now then are now 
educated in school on economics 

402
00:21:37,590 --> 00:21:39,510
in general, right? 
I hope so. 

403
00:21:39,870 --> 00:21:43,390
That we don't learn a lot about.
Yeah, those, those are, those 

404
00:21:43,390 --> 00:21:44,270
are very good points. 
Yeah. 

405
00:21:44,270 --> 00:21:47,230
Well, then then we don't really 
have to wait that long, right? 

406
00:21:47,230 --> 00:21:51,350
Like in in in five years we'll 
have really like the first 

407
00:21:51,350 --> 00:21:53,590
adults who who've never lived in
the world without Bitcoin. 

408
00:21:53,590 --> 00:21:55,310
So that's exciting. 
Totally. 

409
00:21:56,850 --> 00:22:01,290
Third Point about Bitcoin having
no intrinsic value. 

410
00:22:02,690 --> 00:22:07,090
Yeah, people often say this, 
this is just the argument is it 

411
00:22:07,090 --> 00:22:10,530
has no intrinsic value. 
It comes from the error or 

412
00:22:10,530 --> 00:22:14,090
nothing. 
I I, I think this is one of the 

413
00:22:14,090 --> 00:22:18,650
weakest myths actually. 
How do you counter this when 

414
00:22:18,650 --> 00:22:21,930
someone says this? 
And yeah, like, particularly 

415
00:22:21,930 --> 00:22:26,150
when people compare to gold or 
real estate, diamonds, whatever,

416
00:22:26,150 --> 00:22:28,830
yeah. 
So just to clarify, intrinsic 

417
00:22:28,830 --> 00:22:32,230
value is basically the idea that
an asset has some sort of 

418
00:22:32,230 --> 00:22:35,590
inherent worth, usually 
associated with some sort of 

419
00:22:35,590 --> 00:22:37,350
tangible qualities that it 
possesses. 

420
00:22:37,910 --> 00:22:40,910
So take, for example, gold is a 
great example. 

421
00:22:41,310 --> 00:22:45,670
It has uses beyond its monetary 
uses. 

422
00:22:45,670 --> 00:22:49,130
So it's used in jewelry. 
It's used in industry and it's 

423
00:22:49,130 --> 00:22:51,490
also physical. 
So people are, you know, gold 

424
00:22:51,490 --> 00:22:53,690
has intrinsic value. 
And I think this, this argument 

425
00:22:53,690 --> 00:22:56,210
that Bitcoin does not have 
intrinsic value comes a lot from

426
00:22:56,210 --> 00:22:59,570
like gold bugs and things like 
that, who feel that for 

427
00:22:59,570 --> 00:23:02,410
something to have intrinsic 
value, it needs to have tangible

428
00:23:02,410 --> 00:23:05,090
qualities, it needs to have a 
tangible backing and so because 

429
00:23:05,090 --> 00:23:07,570
Bitcoin. 
Is is that it or is it? 

430
00:23:07,890 --> 00:23:12,090
Sometimes I understood it as, 
you know, gold gets formed 

431
00:23:12,130 --> 00:23:15,370
underground by lots of pressure 
and whatever you don't like. 

432
00:23:15,970 --> 00:23:18,370
Stuff happens, energy is 
expended, etcetera. 

433
00:23:18,370 --> 00:23:21,210
I know this is short leap to 
Bitcoin mining, but you know, I 

434
00:23:21,210 --> 00:23:23,290
I I kind of understand it as 
that, right? 

435
00:23:23,290 --> 00:23:28,370
Like something happened for gold
to exist, something happened for

436
00:23:28,370 --> 00:23:32,370
diamonds to exist, someone built
a house that now someone can 

437
00:23:32,410 --> 00:23:35,130
live in. 
Is that the intrinsic value or 

438
00:23:35,130 --> 00:23:38,850
that that also plays into it? 
For sure, yeah. 

439
00:23:38,850 --> 00:23:41,370
And I mean, and you can kind of 
say the same thing about Bitcoin

440
00:23:41,370 --> 00:23:43,290
mining in a way, but I won't 
even go there yet. 

441
00:23:45,870 --> 00:23:47,270
Yeah. 
And I think also it's it's 

442
00:23:47,270 --> 00:23:51,790
important to to kind of think, 
realize that that intrinsic 

443
00:23:51,790 --> 00:23:55,190
value comes in, in many forms. 
And that is because really value

444
00:23:55,190 --> 00:23:57,870
is, is subjective, right. 
So I think in the article I 

445
00:23:57,870 --> 00:24:00,870
quoted Mises and he says value 
is not intrinsic. 

446
00:24:00,870 --> 00:24:03,950
It's not within things. 
It is within ourselves. 

447
00:24:04,030 --> 00:24:06,830
It's in the way in which man 
reacts to the conditions of his 

448
00:24:06,830 --> 00:24:08,830
environment. 
And that just kind of underpins 

449
00:24:08,830 --> 00:24:10,510
the idea that value is 
subjective. 

450
00:24:10,510 --> 00:24:13,510
People value things differently 
based on their own preferences, 

451
00:24:13,510 --> 00:24:17,530
needs and life experiences. 
So for someone to say that 

452
00:24:17,530 --> 00:24:19,610
Bitcoin doesn't have intrinsic 
value is sort of to like 

453
00:24:19,650 --> 00:24:22,530
heighten their own preferences 
over someone else's. 

454
00:24:23,450 --> 00:24:26,170
And when you think about it, 
while Bitcoin is not physical, 

455
00:24:26,410 --> 00:24:30,890
it's it derives value and an 
intrinsic value in its own way, 

456
00:24:30,970 --> 00:24:33,690
in its own way. 
And the ways that it does that 

457
00:24:33,690 --> 00:24:38,170
is through it's it's the way it 
was a technological innovation, 

458
00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:42,160
through its scarcity of having 
only 21 million coins, as well 

459
00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:45,240
as through its network effects 
and the like, the real world 

460
00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:48,920
utility that it possesses. 
So the ability for Bitcoin to be

461
00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:52,960
sent anywhere in the world at 
very low cost almost instantly 

462
00:24:53,360 --> 00:24:55,600
is that's a very valuable 
service. 

463
00:24:55,680 --> 00:24:58,400
I mean we have entire industries
built around just doing that, 

464
00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:01,440
but Bitcoin literally just 
obsoletes those things. 

465
00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:06,640
And then you when you consider 
also like the the, the growing 

466
00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:10,680
network and the network effect 
that Bitcoin has where the more 

467
00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:13,320
people using Bitcoin, the more 
valuable it becomes, the more 

468
00:25:13,320 --> 00:25:15,920
merchants accepting Bitcoin, the
more easy it is to use your 

469
00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:17,680
Bitcoin to spend on goods and 
services. 

470
00:25:19,120 --> 00:25:21,560
And yeah, so those those things 
combined kind of solidify the 

471
00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:23,600
idea that Bitcoin does indeed 
have value. 

472
00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:29,880
It has, it has real world 
utility kind of challenging that

473
00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:33,500
that conception that it has no 
solid backing or intrinsic 

474
00:25:33,500 --> 00:25:36,780
value. 
Again here, I think this is such

475
00:25:36,780 --> 00:25:43,380
a simplification of this entire 
argument, This entire, well, 

476
00:25:43,380 --> 00:25:46,220
myth is is like a 
oversimplification of what 

477
00:25:46,220 --> 00:25:49,900
Bitcoin actually is, right? 
Because as you mentioned, you 

478
00:25:49,900 --> 00:25:51,780
can send Bitcoin anywhere in the
world. 

479
00:25:51,780 --> 00:25:55,580
It's decentralized. 
It solves a crazy old problem 

480
00:25:55,580 --> 00:25:58,420
and the Byzantine general 
problem and. 

481
00:25:59,250 --> 00:26:02,970
Actually, just how the 
technology is configured does 

482
00:26:02,970 --> 00:26:06,250
already imply intrinsic value in
a sense, right. 

483
00:26:06,250 --> 00:26:12,410
Because we can do things that we
weren't able to do before, which

484
00:26:12,810 --> 00:26:14,850
kind of sounds like intrinsic 
value in a sense. 

485
00:26:14,850 --> 00:26:17,690
Like it has value. 
It's not a random thing, right? 

486
00:26:17,690 --> 00:26:20,290
It's not a Yeah. 
It's not a random. 

487
00:26:20,370 --> 00:26:21,770
It's not a random thing. 
Yeah. 

488
00:26:21,770 --> 00:26:23,970
Interesting. 
Again, like I I that's again, 

489
00:26:23,970 --> 00:26:25,530
like, I think this is a good 
episode, right? 

490
00:26:25,530 --> 00:26:27,570
Like I always kind of chuckle 
when I see. 

491
00:26:28,610 --> 00:26:33,490
Oversimplification of Bitcoin 
and then used as an argument in 

492
00:26:33,490 --> 00:26:37,370
a sense that just really signals
that you did not do the work, 

493
00:26:37,570 --> 00:26:41,450
you know, like you do you, you 
do not understand what this, 

494
00:26:41,610 --> 00:26:44,730
what this actually is. 
Yeah. 

495
00:26:44,890 --> 00:26:47,570
And I think another really good 
point, too is like, for the 

496
00:26:47,570 --> 00:26:50,490
people who say Bitcoin has no 
value, you got to ask yourself, 

497
00:26:50,810 --> 00:26:53,930
you know, what about the 100 
million people who are using 

498
00:26:53,930 --> 00:26:55,130
Bitcoin? 
Right. 

499
00:26:55,130 --> 00:26:57,120
Like, do those. 
What? 

500
00:26:57,120 --> 00:26:58,920
What is it that those people are
valuing? 

501
00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:02,280
What do they see in Bitcoin? 
Because clearly, maybe you don't

502
00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:05,240
value Bitcoin, but others are. 
And there are an increasing 

503
00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:08,560
number of people who are valuing
Bitcoin from individuals to 

504
00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:11,000
institutions to even nation 
states. 

505
00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:12,800
Right. 
So you kind of got to ask 

506
00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:15,080
yourself, like, what do they see
in Bitcoin? 

507
00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:17,360
And when you ask yourself that, 
and then you do the research, 

508
00:27:17,360 --> 00:27:20,200
you realize, like, wait a 
minute, this is a, this is a 

509
00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:22,560
breakthrough technology. 
This has value. 

510
00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:23,920
There's something here. 
Exactly. 

511
00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:27,590
Well, that goes back to. 
What I just said, right? 

512
00:27:27,590 --> 00:27:30,910
Like it should and what you just
say now, right? 

513
00:27:30,910 --> 00:27:33,910
Like it should spark something 
in you, right? 

514
00:27:33,910 --> 00:27:36,990
Like, it's. 
I've always been super intrigued

515
00:27:36,990 --> 00:27:40,310
in like technology and like 
startups, people building new 

516
00:27:40,310 --> 00:27:43,310
businesses. 
And what I always thought was 

517
00:27:43,310 --> 00:27:46,470
like judging. 
Like seeing an idea or concept 

518
00:27:46,470 --> 00:27:49,950
and saying, oh this sucks or 
this could never work or this is

519
00:27:49,950 --> 00:27:54,110
so stupid, you know, like that 
it's simple and lazy to do that 

520
00:27:54,590 --> 00:27:56,990
because. 
If someone is working on 

521
00:27:56,990 --> 00:28:01,070
something or 100 million people 
are adopting something and, you 

522
00:28:01,070 --> 00:28:03,950
know, sharing information about 
it and trying to educate other 

523
00:28:03,950 --> 00:28:06,950
people, there is something there
because they are spending their 

524
00:28:07,990 --> 00:28:12,270
their energy, their time, maybe 
their money on actually, you 

525
00:28:12,270 --> 00:28:15,790
know, working on that idea or 
contributing to that idea, 

526
00:28:15,790 --> 00:28:17,990
right. 
So I always thought, well, if I 

527
00:28:17,990 --> 00:28:21,470
think something is stupid, but 
there's three people on the team

528
00:28:21,470 --> 00:28:23,710
working on an idea. 
They see something that I don't 

529
00:28:23,710 --> 00:28:26,190
see. 
Maybe I'm right, but they are 

530
00:28:26,190 --> 00:28:30,070
still working on it, right? 
So I I I want to understand what

531
00:28:30,070 --> 00:28:33,470
they see and then I can actually
have an opinion, right. 

532
00:28:33,470 --> 00:28:37,350
Then I have my own idea and then
I hear how they see it and and 

533
00:28:37,350 --> 00:28:40,670
then I can have actually a a 
better opinion on, you know, 

534
00:28:40,670 --> 00:28:42,310
whatever whatever the subject is
here. 

535
00:28:42,310 --> 00:28:44,790
But yeah, I, I, I think it's the
same here, right? 

536
00:28:44,790 --> 00:28:49,550
Like when when people are so are
simplifying all these arguments.

537
00:28:51,140 --> 00:28:53,620
I don't think it's bad faith. 
I think it's also sometimes 

538
00:28:53,620 --> 00:28:57,020
maybe a bit daunting, right? 
Like Bitcoin is just hard to 

539
00:28:57,020 --> 00:28:59,700
understand. 
There's a lot of dimensions that

540
00:28:59,700 --> 00:29:04,220
it touches, right? 
And one of those things is, you 

541
00:29:04,220 --> 00:29:07,620
know, what you think you know 
about money and economics and 

542
00:29:07,620 --> 00:29:12,780
finance and you know, so it's 
also, I think, and not only 

543
00:29:12,780 --> 00:29:15,940
daunting, but it also challenges
your narrative and that's that 

544
00:29:15,940 --> 00:29:18,940
could be scary also. 
Yeah. 

545
00:29:19,540 --> 00:29:22,840
OK, well. 
The next one is Bitcoin is bad 

546
00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:25,800
for the environment. 
I think this is the biggest it 

547
00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:29,160
is probably this is probably the
biggest and and I think between 

548
00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:33,000
when you wrote your article and 
now a lot has changed. 

549
00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:43,400
There have been KPMG reports on 
the ESG aspect of Bitcoin. 

550
00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:47,600
I I mentioned Daniel Batten 
before on Twitter has like a big

551
00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:50,600
fund investing in. 
I think it's. 

552
00:29:51,380 --> 00:29:55,900
Methane flaring and lowering 
emissions from landfills using 

553
00:29:55,900 --> 00:30:00,740
Bitcoin mining and he has 
amazing tweets and stats on 

554
00:30:00,740 --> 00:30:02,900
this. 
So a lot has changed since you 

555
00:30:03,100 --> 00:30:08,020
since you wrote about it. 
What we see is that Bitcoin is 

556
00:30:08,020 --> 00:30:12,140
increasingly powered by 
sustainable energy or making use

557
00:30:12,140 --> 00:30:16,220
of other otherwise, you know, 
wasted resources. 

558
00:30:17,140 --> 00:30:19,900
Can you elaborate on this? 
Like what is this trend? 

559
00:30:19,900 --> 00:30:23,820
Where where is it at? 
Like, how is it growing and why 

560
00:30:23,820 --> 00:30:26,500
could this make Bitcoin one of 
the cleanest industries on the 

561
00:30:26,500 --> 00:30:28,220
planet? 
Yeah, totally. 

562
00:30:29,980 --> 00:30:33,860
So I think there is sort of 
this, there's an, there was, 

563
00:30:34,060 --> 00:30:35,380
there was this narrative 
growing. 

564
00:30:35,380 --> 00:30:38,940
I think it came a lot from like 
legacy media that Bitcoin is bad

565
00:30:38,940 --> 00:30:43,020
for the environment where they 
try to paint Bitcoin mining as 

566
00:30:43,020 --> 00:30:46,590
sort of a black and white issue.
Of course, nothing in nothing in

567
00:30:46,590 --> 00:30:48,590
the world is that simple. 
So when you start doing some 

568
00:30:48,590 --> 00:30:51,070
more research, you realize that 
there's a much more nuanced 

569
00:30:51,070 --> 00:30:55,670
reality around Bitcoin. 
So just because Bitcoin uses a 

570
00:30:55,670 --> 00:30:58,870
lot of energy does not 
necessarily mean that it is bad 

571
00:30:58,870 --> 00:31:01,750
for the environment. 
Almost everything we do in our 

572
00:31:01,750 --> 00:31:06,550
lives uses energy. 
And so it it's not a, it's not a

573
00:31:06,550 --> 00:31:09,630
valid criterion for deciding 
whether or not something is good

574
00:31:09,630 --> 00:31:12,430
or bad for the environment. 
So when you look into it, I'll 

575
00:31:12,430 --> 00:31:15,370
just kind of knock off a couple 
facts to start here. 

576
00:31:15,930 --> 00:31:17,050
Go for it. 
Yeah. 

577
00:31:17,050 --> 00:31:20,970
So for starters, according to 
the the Cambridge Bitcoin 

578
00:31:20,970 --> 00:31:26,450
Electricity Consumption Index, 
Bitcoin consumes about .2% of 

579
00:31:26,450 --> 00:31:28,850
global energy production on an 
annual basis. 

580
00:31:29,370 --> 00:31:33,290
So it's a pretty, pretty small 
amount of energy in the grand 

581
00:31:33,290 --> 00:31:35,450
scheme of things. 
It's, it's. 

582
00:31:35,530 --> 00:31:37,170
On par tumble dryers. 
Exactly. 

583
00:31:37,250 --> 00:31:39,090
Yeah. 
So it's it's on par with tumble 

584
00:31:39,090 --> 00:31:43,020
dryers in the US alone. 
So just in the USA, it uses 

585
00:31:43,020 --> 00:31:47,700
about the same amount of as as 
tumble dryers, which is a very 

586
00:31:47,900 --> 00:31:50,740
minuscule actually. 
Yeah, well, clearly tumble 

587
00:31:50,740 --> 00:31:52,940
dryers use more energy than I 
realized. 

588
00:31:52,940 --> 00:31:56,460
But you know, a lot of places 
kind of they like to make 

589
00:31:56,460 --> 00:32:00,260
comparisons to countries, which 
is just not a good comparison at

590
00:32:00,260 --> 00:32:01,540
all. 
It's not really fair. 

591
00:32:01,580 --> 00:32:03,700
Countries are made-up of of 
millions of millions and 

592
00:32:03,700 --> 00:32:06,340
sometimes billions of people. 
And also kind of this notion 

593
00:32:06,340 --> 00:32:11,020
that energy is bad, right like. 
I once heard someone say, look 

594
00:32:11,020 --> 00:32:14,940
outside and then everything you 
see is made by energy. 

595
00:32:14,940 --> 00:32:18,660
Everything from the trees to the
bricks to the just everything 

596
00:32:18,660 --> 00:32:21,580
costs energy. 
And that's also the entire point

597
00:32:21,580 --> 00:32:24,500
about money, right? 
It's to exchange energy with 

598
00:32:24,900 --> 00:32:26,540
energy with each other. 
Totally. 

599
00:32:26,700 --> 00:32:27,780
Yeah. 
Well, like, yeah, every 

600
00:32:27,780 --> 00:32:30,140
everything is, everything is is 
made from energy. 

601
00:32:30,140 --> 00:32:33,540
Everything is energy. 
Energy is the the key to human 

602
00:32:33,580 --> 00:32:35,900
flourishment, Right. 
I don't know if you've probably 

603
00:32:35,900 --> 00:32:37,900
seen that chart where it's like 
there's no such thing as an 

604
00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:42,920
energy poor country where like 
if you if you are developing as 

605
00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:45,920
a country, you are an energy 
rich country and that's there's 

606
00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:48,920
a there's a very tight 
correlation between development 

607
00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:54,040
and energy usage. 
Yeah, so, so, so Bitcoin uses a 

608
00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:56,280
a pretty small amount of energy 
in the grand scheme of things in

609
00:32:56,280 --> 00:32:59,320
the world. 
It is also like you were saying 

610
00:32:59,360 --> 00:33:03,120
powered by a majority of 
sustainable energy already and 

611
00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:05,840
this this number is something I 
it has been increasing and 

612
00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:09,870
something I do expect to 
increase as time goes on. 

613
00:33:10,830 --> 00:33:14,030
And as you were saying Daniel 
Batten is a is a climate VC and 

614
00:33:14,030 --> 00:33:16,950
and Bitcoin advocate and he so 
one of his his recent research 

615
00:33:16,950 --> 00:33:20,710
found that 52.6% of all Bitcoin 
mining is being done with 

616
00:33:20,710 --> 00:33:24,790
sustainable energy. 
I think the Bitcoin mining 

617
00:33:24,790 --> 00:33:28,750
council also has a report that 
finds around 60% as well. 

618
00:33:28,790 --> 00:33:31,670
So I mean somewhere in that 
range of of 50 to 60% of all 

619
00:33:31,670 --> 00:33:34,870
Bitcoin mining is being done 
with sustainable energy, which 

620
00:33:34,870 --> 00:33:38,890
is actually higher than almost 
most industries in the world. 

621
00:33:39,850 --> 00:33:42,650
So even though Bitcoin is a very
new technology and coming onto 

622
00:33:42,650 --> 00:33:45,530
the scene just now, it's already
using more sustainable energy 

623
00:33:45,530 --> 00:33:48,850
than than most other industries.
And then the even more stunning 

624
00:33:48,850 --> 00:33:51,410
part, and this is more. 
Again, shout out to Daniel 

625
00:33:51,410 --> 00:33:55,690
Batten for this one. 
He he did a report with Willy 

626
00:33:55,690 --> 00:34:00,210
Woo and they found that over the
last three years the emissions 

627
00:34:00,210 --> 00:34:03,770
intensity of the Bitcoin network
has fallen by over 50%. 

628
00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:06,560
And what's really stunning about
this is that the emissions 

629
00:34:06,560 --> 00:34:10,040
intensity of Bitcoin mining is 
falling while the network is 

630
00:34:10,040 --> 00:34:12,159
growing and scaling. 
And there. 

631
00:34:12,199 --> 00:34:15,840
This was an argument before, so 
I can't think of any other 

632
00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:18,159
industries that can make a claim
like that. 

633
00:34:18,560 --> 00:34:21,600
And the reason why this is 
happening is because Bitcoin 

634
00:34:21,600 --> 00:34:25,560
miners are increasingly adopting
renewable energy. 

635
00:34:25,560 --> 00:34:28,760
They're they're adopting wasted 
energy and just sustainable 

636
00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:31,520
energy sources in general. 
Why are they doing that? 

637
00:34:31,639 --> 00:34:35,550
Because Bitcoin miner Bitcoin 
mining is a very cost 

638
00:34:35,590 --> 00:34:40,110
competitive industry. 
It necessitates access to to to 

639
00:34:40,110 --> 00:34:43,989
low cost energy and that often 
comes in the form of 

640
00:34:44,070 --> 00:34:48,389
intermittent renewables, 
stranded renewable energy as 

641
00:34:48,389 --> 00:34:53,150
well as wasted energy like 
things like flared gas from from

642
00:34:53,150 --> 00:34:56,469
from oil and gas operations, but
also methane leaking from 

643
00:34:56,469 --> 00:34:59,310
landfills and things like that. 
So Bitcoin miners are 

644
00:34:59,310 --> 00:35:03,980
increasingly utilizing 
sustainable energy sources to 

645
00:35:03,980 --> 00:35:06,980
power their operations. 
And I think this is really 

646
00:35:07,620 --> 00:35:11,980
magnificent because it's 
completely absent of any 

647
00:35:12,220 --> 00:35:15,420
regulatory requirement from 
anyone for them to do this. 

648
00:35:15,420 --> 00:35:18,780
They're adopting this because 
basically they have an incentive

649
00:35:18,780 --> 00:35:22,180
to use renewable energy over 
fossil fuels, and that's because

650
00:35:22,180 --> 00:35:25,580
fossil fuels are typically too 
expensive for for mining Bitcoin

651
00:35:25,580 --> 00:35:28,100
in most cases. 
That's not always the case, but 

652
00:35:29,030 --> 00:35:31,870
it's kind of the reason why 
we're seeing such a large 

653
00:35:31,870 --> 00:35:34,830
portion of it being done using 
sustainable energy. 

654
00:35:36,230 --> 00:35:39,110
Yeah I think it's amazing. 
I I, I actually, I love this 

655
00:35:39,110 --> 00:35:42,510
aspect of Bitcoin and and and 
and what I meant by it was the 

656
00:35:42,510 --> 00:35:45,990
argument before that well if 
Bitcoin is going to grow it's 

657
00:35:45,990 --> 00:35:49,630
going to consume all the energy 
of France or something. 

658
00:35:49,630 --> 00:35:52,190
I don't know there was like this
this thing before, but it's 

659
00:35:52,190 --> 00:35:56,190
actually really great to see 
that now that it's growing that.

660
00:35:57,970 --> 00:36:00,370
It could actually be. 
It's actually like on track to 

661
00:36:00,370 --> 00:36:04,930
become the first carbon negative
industry in the world. 

662
00:36:04,970 --> 00:36:09,130
And yeah, what I Love Actually 
about Bitcoin in general, like, 

663
00:36:09,130 --> 00:36:12,410
we are going to talk about this 
for the next 40 years, right? 

664
00:36:12,730 --> 00:36:17,410
So we are going to see this 
industry become carbon negative,

665
00:36:17,410 --> 00:36:20,450
right? 
And yeah, I just cannot wait for

666
00:36:20,450 --> 00:36:22,770
that moment. 
Like I also really wonder if 

667
00:36:22,770 --> 00:36:25,570
Satoshi thought about this 
before. 

668
00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:29,000
I don't, I don't know, like it's
not really mentioned, you know, 

669
00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:32,840
like in a white paper, but but 
just that the incentive for 

670
00:36:32,840 --> 00:36:39,760
miners to find the cheapest 
energy kind of ish, but not 

671
00:36:39,760 --> 00:36:42,480
really, you know, but like this 
this kind of the 2nd order 

672
00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:47,200
effect of Bitcoin that yeah, I 
think it's just truly amazing. 

673
00:36:47,200 --> 00:36:49,920
And again, you know, if you 
listen to this and you think 

674
00:36:49,920 --> 00:36:53,840
you're a progressive person who 
loves the environment and the 

675
00:36:53,840 --> 00:36:56,640
planet, you should just. 
Really dive into this because 

676
00:36:56,640 --> 00:37:00,520
it's actually pretty crazy it's 
there's less emissions than the 

677
00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:06,080
banking system right and and all
these other things that most 

678
00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:10,800
people will probably find way 
more important currently you 

679
00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:14,680
know if they're learning about 
Bitcoin and so no I think you I 

680
00:37:14,680 --> 00:37:17,440
think you did a great job in 
explaining this and and again if

681
00:37:17,440 --> 00:37:20,840
people want to see numbers right
they can look for what did you 

682
00:37:20,840 --> 00:37:23,280
mention the Cambridge. 
What's it called? 

683
00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:27,720
Point Yeah, Cambridge Bitcoin 
Electricity consumption index, 

684
00:37:27,720 --> 00:37:30,800
yeah. 
Yes and yeah and Google. 

685
00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:32,320
Well, find Daniel Bethel on 
Twitter. 

686
00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:39,040
Shout out Yeah and also the KPMG
Bitcoin ESG report. 

687
00:37:39,040 --> 00:37:42,640
If you type that in into Google,
then you will probably find that

688
00:37:43,160 --> 00:37:47,480
All right next myth, Bitcoin is 
anonymous and only used for 

689
00:37:47,480 --> 00:37:51,190
illicit activities. 
You describe Bitcoin 

690
00:37:51,190 --> 00:37:56,630
transactions as pseudonymous 
rather than anonymous. 

691
00:37:56,630 --> 00:37:59,710
Can you explain why this makes 
Bitcoin less suitable? 

692
00:38:00,230 --> 00:38:02,590
Yeah, so. 
So basically there is that kind 

693
00:38:02,590 --> 00:38:04,990
of that misconception that 
Bitcoin is anonymous, so it 

694
00:38:04,990 --> 00:38:07,590
would be a good tool for for 
criminals or for just for 

695
00:38:07,590 --> 00:38:11,070
illicit activity in general. 
But Bitcoin transactions are not

696
00:38:11,070 --> 00:38:12,590
anonymous, they are 
pseudonymous. 

697
00:38:13,070 --> 00:38:16,910
And what this means is basically
like your address for for both 

698
00:38:16,910 --> 00:38:20,620
sending and receiving Bitcoin. 
It serves as a custom identifier

699
00:38:20,620 --> 00:38:23,060
for you, but it does not have 
any of your personal information

700
00:38:23,060 --> 00:38:25,460
attached to it. 
So you can kind of. 

701
00:38:25,700 --> 00:38:27,780
I think a good comparison is 
like an e-mail address, an 

702
00:38:27,780 --> 00:38:30,260
e-mail address that serves as a 
custom identifier for you, but 

703
00:38:30,260 --> 00:38:33,180
it doesn't necessarily attach 
your your personal details to 

704
00:38:33,180 --> 00:38:34,620
it. 
You know your e-mail address 

705
00:38:34,620 --> 00:38:37,300
couldbehelloworld@gmail.com, 
right? 

706
00:38:39,140 --> 00:38:41,820
So for that exactly. 
So that basically means that 

707
00:38:42,380 --> 00:38:47,170
it's not anonymous for starters,
which means it's it's definitely

708
00:38:47,170 --> 00:38:48,850
not a great tool for illicit 
activity. 

709
00:38:49,810 --> 00:38:52,050
And why is that? 
And it's also has to do with the

710
00:38:52,050 --> 00:38:55,330
fact that the Bitcoin blockchain
itself is very transparent. 

711
00:38:55,970 --> 00:38:58,370
So as we were saying before, the
Bitcoin blockchain is basically 

712
00:38:58,370 --> 00:39:00,490
a permanent record of all the 
Bitcoin transactions that have 

713
00:39:00,490 --> 00:39:05,370
occurred and will occur. 
So you would kind of be like 

714
00:39:05,370 --> 00:39:09,290
leaving a a paper trail of the 
transactions you made if you 

715
00:39:09,290 --> 00:39:10,650
were conducting illicit 
activity. 

716
00:39:11,170 --> 00:39:14,290
And you know, while it's still 
hard to associate an address 

717
00:39:14,290 --> 00:39:18,850
with a specific individual, you 
know, there are additional 

718
00:39:18,850 --> 00:39:22,850
investigative techniques that 
can put into play that allow 

719
00:39:22,930 --> 00:39:25,450
people to kind of trace the flow
of funds over time. 

720
00:39:26,890 --> 00:39:29,930
Even still, I I would like to 
emphasize, even though it's 

721
00:39:29,970 --> 00:39:32,490
undesirable for illicit 
activities, one of the things 

722
00:39:32,490 --> 00:39:35,970
that Bitcoin does still have, 
despite this transparency and 

723
00:39:35,970 --> 00:39:40,020
traceability is that censorship 
and seizure resistance. 

724
00:39:40,340 --> 00:39:43,780
So the Bitcoin network does not 
discriminate at all. 

725
00:39:43,780 --> 00:39:47,740
So if you were to send through a
transaction in any way, it's not

726
00:39:47,740 --> 00:39:50,540
going to stop that transaction, 
even if it's for an illicit use,

727
00:39:50,540 --> 00:39:53,980
it doesn't know the difference 
between you sending money for an

728
00:39:53,980 --> 00:39:56,740
illicit activity and you sending
money home to your family in 

729
00:39:56,740 --> 00:40:00,180
another country, right? 
So in that sense you could still

730
00:40:00,180 --> 00:40:03,680
use it in that way, but. 
You'd be leaving a a paper trail

731
00:40:03,720 --> 00:40:06,440
and there are there are privacy 
tools that can be built on on 

732
00:40:06,440 --> 00:40:08,160
top of it. 
And I I do hope that privacy 

733
00:40:08,160 --> 00:40:10,480
becomes a little something that 
we address more on Bitcoin. 

734
00:40:11,240 --> 00:40:14,960
But in general that that 
transparency, that immutability 

735
00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:18,640
of the Bitcoin blockchain paired
with this Sudan and Sudan 

736
00:40:18,640 --> 00:40:23,160
amenity of of of transactions 
definitely doesn't make it the 

737
00:40:23,160 --> 00:40:26,160
ideal tool for any kind of 
criminal activity. 

738
00:40:26,480 --> 00:40:30,230
And we see that already if you 
look at the data like out of all

739
00:40:30,230 --> 00:40:34,270
cryptocurrency transactions, 
only .34% are estimated to be 

740
00:40:34,270 --> 00:40:37,750
used for list activity, whereas 
something like Fiat cash is 

741
00:40:37,830 --> 00:40:41,270
obviously a much preferred 
medium for conducting illicit 

742
00:40:41,270 --> 00:40:42,550
activity. 
And why is that? 

743
00:40:42,550 --> 00:40:46,430
Because cash is actually 
anonymous and you can't trace 

744
00:40:46,430 --> 00:40:49,550
the the flow of it, right. 
So it's it's, you know, in 

745
00:40:49,550 --> 00:40:52,590
person transactions, there's no 
attaching your identity to that 

746
00:40:52,590 --> 00:40:54,470
piece of paper that you've 
handed to somebody else. 

747
00:40:54,830 --> 00:40:58,960
And if you look at the data 
again, up to 5% of all cash 

748
00:40:58,960 --> 00:41:01,600
transactions in the US are used 
for illicit activity. 

749
00:41:01,600 --> 00:41:04,640
So that's a significantly higher
proportion than than with all of

750
00:41:04,640 --> 00:41:06,520
crypto, not just Bitcoin. 
Yeah. 

751
00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:08,040
Great. 
You got that percentage. 

752
00:41:08,040 --> 00:41:11,640
I was, I was Googling real quick
to see if I could find it. 

753
00:41:12,120 --> 00:41:14,800
Yeah, no, I think that's great. 
And especially like you now have

754
00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:18,680
firms as what's it called, Chain
chain analysis. 

755
00:41:18,680 --> 00:41:23,600
For example, they work with 
public and private organizations

756
00:41:23,720 --> 00:41:26,400
to do research on blockchain and
tech. 

757
00:41:27,990 --> 00:41:31,470
Wallets tag transactions and 
monitor. 

758
00:41:31,470 --> 00:41:36,110
Just, yeah, known criminal, 
criminal wallets for example, 

759
00:41:36,110 --> 00:41:40,350
for people who are hackers, you 
know, with these attacks where 

760
00:41:40,630 --> 00:41:43,150
you know the BitLocker attacks 
where people have to buy Bitcoin

761
00:41:43,150 --> 00:41:45,030
to unlock their computers and 
stuff like that. 

762
00:41:45,030 --> 00:41:51,030
So yeah, you can do it as you 
mentioned, but yeah, it's 

763
00:41:51,030 --> 00:41:54,990
probably not the smartest or the
the best thing that that you 

764
00:41:54,990 --> 00:41:57,120
could use. 
Where do you actually think this

765
00:41:57,120 --> 00:41:59,720
myth came from? 
Is that just Silk Road legacy? 

766
00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:03,520
Yeah, I'm actually, I'm not sure
where it came from, but I just 

767
00:42:03,520 --> 00:42:04,520
hear it a lot. 
Yeah. 

768
00:42:04,520 --> 00:42:07,200
So a lot of these myths are kind
of just like I base this off of 

769
00:42:07,200 --> 00:42:10,840
what I heard in both like legacy
media as well as just word of 

770
00:42:10,840 --> 00:42:15,440
mouth and talking to people that
were like didn't know a lot 

771
00:42:15,440 --> 00:42:17,760
about Bitcoin and that the 
concerns they have right off the

772
00:42:17,760 --> 00:42:19,680
bat. 
I I honestly think it's kind of 

773
00:42:19,680 --> 00:42:22,320
like a false narrative that got 
spread around in the early days 

774
00:42:22,320 --> 00:42:26,410
of Bitcoin, probably associated 
with like the Silk Road, with 

775
00:42:26,410 --> 00:42:31,090
Silk Road and things like that. 
I mean, yeah, so not 100% sure 

776
00:42:31,090 --> 00:42:34,890
of the origin, but. 
Yeah, yeah, it's it's probably 

777
00:42:34,890 --> 00:42:37,690
that. 
I think that's just also one of 

778
00:42:37,690 --> 00:42:39,970
the things how Bitcoin got 
known, right? 

779
00:42:40,210 --> 00:42:42,970
Yeah, exactly. 
And to more, more broader 

780
00:42:42,970 --> 00:42:44,490
public. 
Yeah, All right. 

781
00:42:44,490 --> 00:42:49,410
Next one is Bitcoin will be 
hacked or shut down and you say 

782
00:42:49,410 --> 00:42:51,980
that. 
Due to Bitcoin's decentralized 

783
00:42:51,980 --> 00:42:57,300
nature and the security makes it
resistant to hacking, what's 

784
00:42:57,700 --> 00:43:01,020
What are? 
How does this contribute to its 

785
00:43:01,020 --> 00:43:02,980
resilience, and are there any 
other things? 

786
00:43:03,500 --> 00:43:07,260
Yeah, so a lot of people, 
because Bitcoin is, as we were 

787
00:43:07,260 --> 00:43:09,940
kind of touching on, like it's 
a, it's a relatively new digital

788
00:43:09,940 --> 00:43:12,620
network. 
So people aren't necessarily 

789
00:43:12,620 --> 00:43:17,180
sure about its permanence yet. 
And they think that it'll like 

790
00:43:17,300 --> 00:43:20,220
because it's digital, it might, 
it can get hacked. 

791
00:43:21,340 --> 00:43:23,140
And that's something that kind 
of stems from the fact that a 

792
00:43:23,140 --> 00:43:27,500
lot of digital products can be 
hacked as well as the idea that,

793
00:43:27,500 --> 00:43:30,260
you know, like governments are 
are going to ban Bitcoin or 

794
00:43:30,260 --> 00:43:34,420
something like that. 
And really governments can only 

795
00:43:34,420 --> 00:43:36,300
ban themselves from from 
Bitcoin. 

796
00:43:36,300 --> 00:43:38,020
They can't actually ban Bitcoin 
itself. 

797
00:43:38,300 --> 00:43:40,860
And the reason for that is 
because, well, one Bitcoin is a 

798
00:43:40,860 --> 00:43:43,900
decentralized network. 
So there is, there are people, 

799
00:43:45,170 --> 00:43:48,530
what we call nodes, running the 
Bitcoin software in all corners 

800
00:43:48,530 --> 00:43:51,250
of the world and there are also 
people mining Bitcoin in all the

801
00:43:51,250 --> 00:43:54,370
corners of the world. 
And these people running the 

802
00:43:54,370 --> 00:43:59,530
Bitcoin net software are are all
keeping a separate version of 

803
00:43:59,530 --> 00:44:01,690
the Bitcoin Ledger right there 
on their computer. 

804
00:44:03,010 --> 00:44:06,090
And they're verifying it every 
10 minutes as new blocks come 

805
00:44:06,090 --> 00:44:08,570
in. 
And the the beauty of this is 

806
00:44:08,570 --> 00:44:13,170
that like you could have a 
nation state ban Bitcoin and say

807
00:44:13,170 --> 00:44:16,990
you know like you can't mine 
here, you can't run the Bitcoin 

808
00:44:16,990 --> 00:44:20,070
software if that would be 
extremely difficult to enforce 

809
00:44:20,070 --> 00:44:21,910
of course. 
But even if some were not 

810
00:44:21,910 --> 00:44:25,350
happen, like say somewhere in 
the US and you know Bitcoin just

811
00:44:25,350 --> 00:44:29,710
went dark in the US, the network
itself would continue to 

812
00:44:29,710 --> 00:44:32,390
function as intended pretty much
perfectly. 

813
00:44:32,390 --> 00:44:34,550
Like obviously the hash rate 
would take a little bit of a hit

814
00:44:35,350 --> 00:44:38,310
but because there are nodes 
everywhere else in the world the

815
00:44:38,470 --> 00:44:40,630
the Bitcoin network continues to
function. 

816
00:44:41,190 --> 00:44:45,450
So it would take like widespread
blackout to be actually able to 

817
00:44:45,450 --> 00:44:48,210
affect the the network, but even
in that case like you know, I've

818
00:44:48,210 --> 00:44:49,650
seen people broadcasting 
Bitcoin. 

819
00:44:49,690 --> 00:44:52,170
There's two nodes, 2 nodes. 
There's even satellite. 

820
00:44:52,170 --> 00:44:54,090
Exactly. 
There's even satellite nodes, 

821
00:44:54,090 --> 00:44:55,210
right? 
Yeah, exactly. 

822
00:44:55,210 --> 00:44:58,410
So we have, we have Bitcoin in 
space on satellites. 

823
00:44:58,410 --> 00:45:00,410
We have Bitcoin that's being 
sent over radio. 

824
00:45:00,410 --> 00:45:03,210
We have Bitcoin on the Internet.
Like, like the Internet is just 

825
00:45:03,210 --> 00:45:05,370
the most efficient way to use 
Bitcoin. 

826
00:45:05,690 --> 00:45:09,310
It's not necessarily attach the 
Internet or or reliant on the 

827
00:45:09,310 --> 00:45:11,150
Internet in any way. 
I mean you can actually like 

828
00:45:11,310 --> 00:45:14,070
create a wallet and mine Bitcoin
using pen and paper if you 

829
00:45:14,070 --> 00:45:16,550
wanted to, which is totally 
crazy to think about. 

830
00:45:17,270 --> 00:45:19,950
And then the other thing too is,
is the idea that Bitcoin can be 

831
00:45:19,950 --> 00:45:23,830
hacked and that to me is is 
technically infeasible. 

832
00:45:24,630 --> 00:45:27,550
Why is that? 
Because Bitcoin is 1 

833
00:45:27,550 --> 00:45:30,630
decentralized 2 uses some of the
most advanced cryptography that 

834
00:45:30,630 --> 00:45:34,150
we know as well as just the 
immense amount of computational 

835
00:45:34,150 --> 00:45:38,940
power backing the network. 
So if people aren't familiar, 

836
00:45:39,140 --> 00:45:41,260
one of the one of the things 
people say is like a call the 

837
00:45:41,260 --> 00:45:45,060
51% attack and that would 
basically involve harnessing a 

838
00:45:45,060 --> 00:45:50,900
majority of the network's 
computing power to to to conduct

839
00:45:50,900 --> 00:45:53,100
faulty transactions or get some 
more Bitcoin for yourself. 

840
00:45:53,500 --> 00:45:58,170
But what what you realize is 
that that at this point is 

841
00:45:58,170 --> 00:46:01,970
pretty much impossible given 
that how decentralized multi 

842
00:46:01,970 --> 00:46:03,610
billion dollar. 
Yeah. 

843
00:46:03,650 --> 00:46:08,410
And how much that that energy 
backing the network and is is 

844
00:46:08,490 --> 00:46:12,450
quite immense so. 
So people kind of realize like 

845
00:46:13,050 --> 00:46:15,170
and and it would have been 
easier right if if if Bitcoin 

846
00:46:15,170 --> 00:46:16,930
was going to be hacked it would 
have already happened. 

847
00:46:17,410 --> 00:46:21,610
Every day it becomes 
increasingly harder to hack and 

848
00:46:21,610 --> 00:46:24,650
and more secure and I think that
that kind of is it's it's a 

849
00:46:24,650 --> 00:46:26,170
thing of beauty. 
Yeah. 

850
00:46:26,410 --> 00:46:29,990
Yeah. 
Yeah, I I once saw a video by 

851
00:46:30,430 --> 00:46:35,830
Andreas Antonopoulos, I I think 
it's probably like over eight 

852
00:46:35,830 --> 00:46:40,270
years ago or something where he 
explains that even back at that 

853
00:46:40,270 --> 00:46:45,870
moment an attack as you 
mentioned it was already a multi

854
00:46:45,870 --> 00:46:52,790
billion dollar endeavor and even
when you would be able to do it.

855
00:46:52,790 --> 00:46:55,270
So now it's. 
Increasingly more. 

856
00:46:55,270 --> 00:46:58,110
I wonder if there's actually 
like numbers out there, right, 

857
00:46:58,110 --> 00:47:00,870
if people could actually 
calculate like what it what it 

858
00:47:00,870 --> 00:47:04,430
would take. 
But even when you would have 

859
00:47:04,430 --> 00:47:10,270
like more control over the 
network, there's only 10 minutes

860
00:47:10,390 --> 00:47:14,950
actually in in which you could 
make money, right? 

861
00:47:15,870 --> 00:47:19,430
Because it will be noticed very 
quickly and then you would be 

862
00:47:19,430 --> 00:47:22,560
locked out. 
That node from which you are 

863
00:47:22,560 --> 00:47:25,560
basically, you know, or the 
nodes from which you are 

864
00:47:25,560 --> 00:47:29,480
basically attacking the network,
they would be excluded by all 

865
00:47:29,480 --> 00:47:33,600
the people that are not part of 
the of the attack, which is the 

866
00:47:33,600 --> 00:47:37,880
majority again, Right. 
So yeah, you would just be 

867
00:47:37,880 --> 00:47:43,160
ignored basically. 
And yeah, so, so they're like an

868
00:47:43,160 --> 00:47:43,720
attack. 
Yeah. 

869
00:47:43,720 --> 00:47:45,280
What? 
What would even be an attack, 

870
00:47:45,400 --> 00:47:46,760
right. 
You cannot take it down. 

871
00:47:47,220 --> 00:47:48,220
You can attack it. 
Yeah. 

872
00:47:48,220 --> 00:47:49,860
You can have some fake 
transactions. 

873
00:47:49,860 --> 00:47:54,140
Yes, you will steal something. 
But actually, if the network 

874
00:47:54,140 --> 00:47:57,700
then forks, right, And you are 
excluded, then yeah, there's 

875
00:47:57,700 --> 00:47:59,460
nothing. 
There's no problem there. 

876
00:47:59,620 --> 00:48:00,860
Yeah, there's not even a 
problem. 

877
00:48:01,220 --> 00:48:04,060
Yeah. 
And and actually, while you're 

878
00:48:04,060 --> 00:48:06,140
talking, I I Googled like, 
what's the size of the 

879
00:48:06,140 --> 00:48:08,260
blockchain? 
It's only 15 gigabytes. 

880
00:48:08,680 --> 00:48:11,560
And actually, also, while we're 
talking, I was thinking, what is

881
00:48:11,560 --> 00:48:14,160
just so amazing about Bitcoin? 
It's just code. 

882
00:48:14,400 --> 00:48:16,080
It's just code. 
It's one since there's like the 

883
00:48:16,080 --> 00:48:19,360
15 gigabytes is text. 
It's literal text. 

884
00:48:19,840 --> 00:48:23,160
It's just text, right? 
It's just a chain of text. 

885
00:48:23,600 --> 00:48:26,840
And it's funny. 
Like, sometimes I have these 

886
00:48:26,840 --> 00:48:28,480
moments in Bitcoin where I 
think, like, wow, that's 

887
00:48:28,480 --> 00:48:31,860
actually pretty. 
Insane, right? 

888
00:48:31,860 --> 00:48:35,900
That is just text. 
And also I sometimes I heard, I 

889
00:48:35,900 --> 00:48:38,100
heard people say like bit 
Bitcoin is actually freedom of 

890
00:48:38,100 --> 00:48:40,220
speech. 
Like even even if you have 

891
00:48:40,220 --> 00:48:44,100
because text and creative 
expression or you know a thought

892
00:48:44,100 --> 00:48:47,260
in your head which could be your
private key, it's just free 

893
00:48:47,260 --> 00:48:49,180
speech, right. 
So how how could you even ban 

894
00:48:49,180 --> 00:48:51,620
that or shut that down? 
Like it's just, it's just not. 

895
00:48:51,900 --> 00:48:53,500
It's just totally, you can't. 
Yeah. 

896
00:48:54,110 --> 00:48:55,470
It's totally impossible. 
Yeah. 

897
00:48:55,710 --> 00:48:56,910
Yeah. 
I'm not afraid to say the. 

898
00:48:58,070 --> 00:48:59,310
Yeah, no, it's totally 
impossible. 

899
00:48:59,310 --> 00:49:00,230
Yeah. 
And it would be. 

900
00:49:02,590 --> 00:49:06,030
It's actually like one of the 
the, the, the, the, the things 

901
00:49:06,030 --> 00:49:07,470
about the rules in Bitcoin, 
right? 

902
00:49:07,470 --> 00:49:11,030
It's like follow the rules 
instead of rulers. 

903
00:49:11,030 --> 00:49:14,430
How we follow rulers now, right?
And everyone who wants to use 

904
00:49:14,430 --> 00:49:18,190
Bitcoin, they can say they can 
see the rules, they can see how 

905
00:49:18,190 --> 00:49:20,910
everyone else is playing by the 
rules, they can, they can see 

906
00:49:20,910 --> 00:49:23,480
anything. 
And the most important thing is 

907
00:49:23,480 --> 00:49:25,840
that when you want to play in 
Bitcoin, you have to play 

908
00:49:25,840 --> 00:49:28,720
according to the rules and you 
have to also show everything, 

909
00:49:28,720 --> 00:49:30,320
right. 
So you're it's forced 

910
00:49:30,360 --> 00:49:34,800
transparency on the base layer 
and then every everything that's

911
00:49:34,800 --> 00:49:38,440
built on top. 
And I think for me that's one of

912
00:49:38,440 --> 00:49:41,240
the things, you know, when we 
talk about hacking or shutting 

913
00:49:41,240 --> 00:49:45,800
down or you know, it's it's also
better to play by the rules that

914
00:49:45,800 --> 00:49:49,000
actually try to bend the rules 
or you know. 

915
00:49:50,410 --> 00:49:54,250
Try to misuse the rules or or or
change them or whatever. 

916
00:49:54,250 --> 00:49:56,930
Like it's just it's just easier 
to play along. 

917
00:49:57,050 --> 00:49:58,610
Right. 
And and same for countries. 

918
00:49:58,610 --> 00:50:02,770
You know, as you mentioned, it's
just the entire endeavor of 

919
00:50:02,770 --> 00:50:05,930
trying to kill Bitcoin is super 
futile. 

920
00:50:05,930 --> 00:50:10,020
Like makes no makes no sense. 
Yeah, exactly. 

921
00:50:10,020 --> 00:50:13,700
Like the the incentives of the 
network itself encourage you to 

922
00:50:13,700 --> 00:50:16,100
play by the rules. 
Instead of using that that 

923
00:50:16,100 --> 00:50:20,020
computational power that you got
to try to to to mess with the 

924
00:50:20,020 --> 00:50:21,700
Bitcoin network. 
What you should do instead is 

925
00:50:21,700 --> 00:50:24,500
dedicate that to playing by the 
rules of the network and get 

926
00:50:24,500 --> 00:50:25,660
some coins for yourself. 
Right. 

927
00:50:26,020 --> 00:50:28,420
Like so that it has like this 
sort of like economic incentive 

928
00:50:28,420 --> 00:50:31,260
to to play by the rules and to 
actually not hack the network 

929
00:50:31,260 --> 00:50:34,220
because you would be more 
beneficial for you to play by 

930
00:50:34,220 --> 00:50:36,020
the rules and just mine some 
Bitcoin. 

931
00:50:36,020 --> 00:50:37,220
Yeah. 
And you know what? 

932
00:50:37,220 --> 00:50:39,260
Like I, I would say like who? 
Who would be able? 

933
00:50:39,340 --> 00:50:42,540
Able to to try to stage an 
attack right? 

934
00:50:42,540 --> 00:50:48,380
Like that's, well it's by now 
it's nation states think about 

935
00:50:48,380 --> 00:50:52,020
what what what would the PR 
value be in legitimizing Bitcoin

936
00:50:52,020 --> 00:50:55,740
If someone would if there would 
be like a nation state attack 

937
00:50:56,260 --> 00:51:01,540
attempt on Bitcoin, like in my 
mind that legitimizes this as a 

938
00:51:01,580 --> 00:51:04,020
thing, right? 
Like as it's a legit. 

939
00:51:04,790 --> 00:51:08,550
Threat to a current system or 
whatever the argument is 

940
00:51:08,550 --> 00:51:11,390
actually for for attacking 
Bitcoin in that sense. 

941
00:51:11,390 --> 00:51:15,630
But for me, it would be like the
ultra legitimization of Bitcoin 

942
00:51:15,670 --> 00:51:17,910
as a whole. 
Yeah, I don't know. 

943
00:51:19,670 --> 00:51:21,830
Well, let's see. 
Let's see if that would happen 

944
00:51:22,230 --> 00:51:23,750
any, any day. 
I don't. 

945
00:51:23,750 --> 00:51:25,150
I don't. 
I don't think it would ever 

946
00:51:25,150 --> 00:51:27,490
happen as well either. 
All right. 

947
00:51:27,490 --> 00:51:30,170
So last myth is Bitcoin is a 
bubble. 

948
00:51:30,170 --> 00:51:33,850
I think for me the one about the
environment and the bubble are 

949
00:51:33,850 --> 00:51:38,170
the biggest ones that I hear. 
Yeah, you mentioned labeling 

950
00:51:38,170 --> 00:51:40,090
Bitcoin as a as a bubble. 
Yeah. 

951
00:51:40,090 --> 00:51:44,250
Again, it's like a over 
simplification of how it works 

952
00:51:44,250 --> 00:51:46,730
and and how it's growing in 
adoption. 

953
00:51:49,050 --> 00:51:51,490
How? 
How is it not a bubble, and how 

954
00:51:51,490 --> 00:51:53,930
does it set it apart from actual
bubbles? 

955
00:51:54,570 --> 00:51:59,250
Yeah, well, so when the idea of 
a bubble is basically that an 

956
00:51:59,250 --> 00:52:02,770
asset, or in finance at least, 
would be the idea that the value

957
00:52:02,770 --> 00:52:06,250
of the asset is inflated well 
beyond its intrinsic worth. 

958
00:52:08,210 --> 00:52:11,530
And so, you know, many people 
will will call Bitcoin a bubble 

959
00:52:11,930 --> 00:52:13,810
because it kind of, it's still 
very new. 

960
00:52:14,090 --> 00:52:16,490
They'll compare it to the Tulip 
mania at the end of the Dutch 

961
00:52:16,490 --> 00:52:21,330
golden age in 1634 where tulips 
became, you know, a very highly 

962
00:52:21,330 --> 00:52:24,650
valued commodity and then came 
crashing down a couple years 

963
00:52:24,650 --> 00:52:28,450
later. 
But I think that kind of so 

964
00:52:28,450 --> 00:52:30,890
labeling Bitcoin is a bubble 
sort of oversimplifies it. 

965
00:52:30,930 --> 00:52:34,410
It's the growing technology 
underneath it and like, the way 

966
00:52:34,410 --> 00:52:38,210
that it works. 
So, and I think also one thing 

967
00:52:38,210 --> 00:52:40,370
that that draws people to saying
it's a bubble is because of 

968
00:52:40,370 --> 00:52:43,850
these big run UPS in price. 
So like you know going from 

969
00:52:43,930 --> 00:52:51,010
$20,000 to to almost $70,000 US 
in 2021, like to that that 

970
00:52:51,090 --> 00:52:54,250
amount of appreciation makes 
people kind of think oh this is 

971
00:52:54,250 --> 00:52:58,230
a bubble, right, But it's not. 
And why is that? 

972
00:52:58,230 --> 00:53:02,470
Because what we've seen 
throughout Bitcoins 14 year 

973
00:53:02,470 --> 00:53:06,630
existence is these big run UPS 
in price and then a price 

974
00:53:06,630 --> 00:53:09,750
correction as it goes back down.
But what it keeps doing is it 

975
00:53:09,990 --> 00:53:13,470
every time it's it is even 
though it's crashing, it 

976
00:53:14,030 --> 00:53:17,270
consistently recovers and makes 
a new all time high in the next 

977
00:53:17,270 --> 00:53:20,910
cycle. 
And that kind of just highlights

978
00:53:20,910 --> 00:53:24,670
like that, that the underlying 
network that is that is Bitcoin.

979
00:53:24,670 --> 00:53:27,990
And it's not just it's not just 
like this, this artificially 

980
00:53:27,990 --> 00:53:31,550
inflated asset by any means. 
Or yeah, exactly. 

981
00:53:31,550 --> 00:53:33,870
It's it's it's a reflection of 
the fact that the network is 

982
00:53:33,870 --> 00:53:36,790
growing that there are more 
investors involved in it that 

983
00:53:36,790 --> 00:53:40,670
they're like yeah like the the 
asset itself is is maturing and 

984
00:53:40,670 --> 00:53:44,790
becoming more relevant in the in
the on the global stage and that

985
00:53:44,790 --> 00:53:46,390
and that's just going to 
continue to happen. 

986
00:53:46,390 --> 00:53:50,620
And I you know probably over the
next few years probably honestly

987
00:53:50,620 --> 00:53:54,340
when when we make the next all 
time high I think people will 

988
00:53:54,860 --> 00:53:58,900
kind of realize that Bitcoin is 
here to stay that that it's not 

989
00:53:58,900 --> 00:54:00,860
a bubble. 
It wasn't a bubble when it made 

990
00:54:00,860 --> 00:54:02,620
it to 70,000. 
It's not going to be a bubble 

991
00:54:02,620 --> 00:54:06,940
when it breaks through 100,000. 
And yeah, so I think it's kind 

992
00:54:06,940 --> 00:54:08,700
of just one of those things 
that's just going to take time. 

993
00:54:09,220 --> 00:54:12,100
But once you understand like you
know how Bitcoin works, the 

994
00:54:12,100 --> 00:54:16,150
decentralization of it, it's 
inherent scarcity, it's growing 

995
00:54:16,150 --> 00:54:18,470
network effects. 
You know, it's it's it's a 

996
00:54:18,470 --> 00:54:20,790
revolutionary technology. 
It's it's not a bubble. 

997
00:54:20,790 --> 00:54:24,110
I mean if you want to talk about
bubbles, we can, we can talk 

998
00:54:24,110 --> 00:54:26,110
about a lot of different 
financial assets in the world 

999
00:54:26,110 --> 00:54:28,750
right now. 
I mean I'm living in Canada and 

1000
00:54:28,750 --> 00:54:31,390
I mean we're we have what I 
would argue is probably one of 

1001
00:54:31,390 --> 00:54:35,710
the the largest housing bubbles 
the country has ever seen since 

1002
00:54:35,710 --> 00:54:37,510
I was born. 
Housing prices have increased 

1003
00:54:37,510 --> 00:54:43,280
over 400%, which is obviously 
completely detached from their 

1004
00:54:43,280 --> 00:54:44,120
intrinsic. 
Value. 

1005
00:54:44,120 --> 00:54:51,920
Are there 400% more people who 
know And OK, no, no, I mean, we 

1006
00:54:51,920 --> 00:54:54,360
know our population is growing, 
but we're a pretty small country

1007
00:54:54,360 --> 00:54:57,080
in general. 
But like, the really, the 

1008
00:54:57,280 --> 00:54:59,480
depressing thing is that our 
incomes aren't growing at that 

1009
00:54:59,480 --> 00:55:00,440
speed, right. 
So. 

1010
00:55:00,480 --> 00:55:02,880
So there's a, there's a 
divergent between the the 

1011
00:55:02,880 --> 00:55:05,760
average income that a Canadian 
is earning and the and the cost 

1012
00:55:05,760 --> 00:55:08,430
of buying a house. 
So it becomes increasingly more 

1013
00:55:08,430 --> 00:55:11,750
difficult for for people to buy 
houses here in Canada, 

1014
00:55:12,030 --> 00:55:13,590
especially if you're if you're 
part of Gen. 

1015
00:55:13,590 --> 00:55:14,630
Z. 
And this is something that I 

1016
00:55:14,630 --> 00:55:18,950
talked about quite a bit and 
it's like, so the question is 

1017
00:55:18,950 --> 00:55:21,590
like why, why is this happening?
And and in large part it's being

1018
00:55:21,590 --> 00:55:26,070
driven by like the the 
financialization of real estate 

1019
00:55:26,870 --> 00:55:29,510
because our money is constantly 
losing value. 

1020
00:55:30,550 --> 00:55:34,150
Investors and just people in 
general need a place to store 

1021
00:55:34,150 --> 00:55:37,670
their wealth for the long term 
because they can't just hold 

1022
00:55:38,030 --> 00:55:40,830
Canadian dollars or or U.S. 
dollars because those those are 

1023
00:55:40,830 --> 00:55:43,190
basically you can kind of think 
of it like holding a bag with a 

1024
00:55:43,190 --> 00:55:45,150
hole in it. 
They're constantly losing value 

1025
00:55:45,150 --> 00:55:48,150
to inflation. 
And so holding a large amount of

1026
00:55:48,150 --> 00:55:52,950
wealth in in, in Fiat currency 
is a guaranteed way to lose 

1027
00:55:52,950 --> 00:55:55,070
money. 
So what do people do, They 

1028
00:55:55,070 --> 00:55:58,990
invest in assets, they invest in
the S&P, they invest in houses, 

1029
00:56:00,360 --> 00:56:03,440
especially housing, real estate 
has been must be like probably 

1030
00:56:03,440 --> 00:56:06,560
the most popular way to store 
wealth over the long term. 

1031
00:56:07,400 --> 00:56:09,880
And that's why we've kind of 
seen these these massive run UPS

1032
00:56:09,880 --> 00:56:11,880
in price, right. 
It's it's basically being driven

1033
00:56:11,880 --> 00:56:15,160
by this, this preference for 
long term wealth storage because

1034
00:56:15,160 --> 00:56:19,120
of the inflation that that is 
present over a long time and as 

1035
00:56:19,120 --> 00:56:21,280
well as short periods like we've
seen in this last couple of 

1036
00:56:21,280 --> 00:56:24,320
years. 
Yeah, do you also feel that this

1037
00:56:24,320 --> 00:56:27,160
like bubble argument for Bitcoin
is also again? 

1038
00:56:29,560 --> 00:56:32,280
So weak, dismissive arguments in
a sense, right. 

1039
00:56:32,280 --> 00:56:36,280
It's for me when someone says 
that it's also really signals 

1040
00:56:36,280 --> 00:56:38,120
like I don't really want to 
study this. 

1041
00:56:38,280 --> 00:56:44,840
I just assume that it's nothing 
or it's bad or something and 

1042
00:56:44,840 --> 00:56:46,240
then I'm just not going to study
it. 

1043
00:56:46,240 --> 00:56:48,560
But I'm still, you know, I'm 
still going to say it's a it's a

1044
00:56:48,560 --> 00:56:51,680
bubble, I think especially for 
this, you know, combined with 

1045
00:56:51,680 --> 00:56:55,230
what you mentioned before like. 
The price discovery of a new 

1046
00:56:55,230 --> 00:56:59,230
asset that that no one has 
actually ever you know 

1047
00:56:59,230 --> 00:57:04,150
experienced and witnessed before
like you you have to try and it 

1048
00:57:04,150 --> 00:57:08,030
I, I, I also find it hard right 
to to go to some sort of more 

1049
00:57:08,030 --> 00:57:13,550
like meta level you know like 
just higher than your own 

1050
00:57:13,550 --> 00:57:17,790
position or or your community or
whatever like it's it's it's 

1051
00:57:17,790 --> 00:57:21,400
about something that is. 
Way, way, way bigger. 

1052
00:57:21,400 --> 00:57:23,600
And that you just don't really 
understand, right. 

1053
00:57:23,600 --> 00:57:28,400
Like the same as or when they 
say like the price goes up and 

1054
00:57:28,400 --> 00:57:30,480
then maybe it's too much or then
we call it the bubble. 

1055
00:57:30,480 --> 00:57:34,320
But yeah, you you don't. 
Well, nowadays, OK, you hear 

1056
00:57:34,320 --> 00:57:36,760
more people talk about like a 
housing bubble, right? 

1057
00:57:36,760 --> 00:57:40,010
But if you look up like what? 
Is the total value of real 

1058
00:57:40,010 --> 00:57:42,850
estate in the world. 
I think it's 300,000,000. 

1059
00:57:42,850 --> 00:57:46,250
If I say correctly, it's like 
that's 400 trillion. 

1060
00:57:46,250 --> 00:57:48,450
I think, if I'm sorry, did I say
trillion? 

1061
00:57:48,730 --> 00:57:50,210
You said million, but that's OK 
Oh. 

1062
00:57:50,250 --> 00:57:50,610
No. 
Yeah. 

1063
00:57:50,930 --> 00:57:54,090
It's like somewhere between 300 
and 400 trillion number is just 

1064
00:57:54,130 --> 00:57:55,370
unfathomable. 
Right. 

1065
00:57:55,370 --> 00:57:58,330
Like how you you like. 
We don't understand. 

1066
00:57:58,330 --> 00:58:01,570
We cannot Rep our brains. 
Our brains cannot, yeah, exactly

1067
00:58:01,570 --> 00:58:04,010
comprehend numbers that large. 
Which is a lot of time. 

1068
00:58:04,010 --> 00:58:06,930
I love those kind of 
visualization photos of like, 

1069
00:58:07,130 --> 00:58:11,850
you know, dollar bills stack, 
you know, 100 stacks as tall as 

1070
00:58:11,850 --> 00:58:14,770
the Statue of Liberty around 
like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 

1071
00:58:16,210 --> 00:58:19,770
Or like 1,000,000 seconds. 
Is 11 days and a billion 

1072
00:58:19,770 --> 00:58:22,530
seconds. 
Is 32 years and a trillion 

1073
00:58:22,530 --> 00:58:25,570
seconds is 32,000 years. 
Wow. 

1074
00:58:26,530 --> 00:58:30,530
You know, so it helps put in and
and and yeah, to come back to my

1075
00:58:30,530 --> 00:58:33,970
point, like the dismissive part,
it's just, it's just not that 

1076
00:58:33,970 --> 00:58:36,390
simple. 
You know, like understanding 

1077
00:58:36,390 --> 00:58:38,670
this is really hard or 
understanding trying to 

1078
00:58:38,670 --> 00:58:42,030
understand finance and economics
and it's just really hard, you 

1079
00:58:42,030 --> 00:58:43,750
know. 
So again, I think because this 

1080
00:58:43,750 --> 00:58:46,310
was also the last myth, you know
that that that you talked about 

1081
00:58:46,310 --> 00:58:50,830
in your article. 
I I feel in general that most of

1082
00:58:50,830 --> 00:58:56,630
them are yeah, kind of like easy
dis dismissals of what Bitcoin 

1083
00:58:56,630 --> 00:59:00,070
is, you know, I think you made 
great points about. 

1084
00:59:00,520 --> 00:59:03,480
You know, showing that it's not 
as black and white, you know, 

1085
00:59:03,560 --> 00:59:08,360
obviously I I fully agree. 
But I I think it's something and

1086
00:59:08,360 --> 00:59:11,320
especially nowadays that a lot 
of people think it's left or 

1087
00:59:11,320 --> 00:59:15,080
right or yes or no or good or 
bad or whatever, like something 

1088
00:59:15,080 --> 00:59:16,680
like this. 
And especially because this 

1089
00:59:16,680 --> 00:59:22,320
touches, yeah, again, so many 
dimensions and also a core of 

1090
00:59:22,320 --> 00:59:25,920
what most people think about, 
probably on a daily or weekly 

1091
00:59:25,920 --> 00:59:29,380
basis, which is money. 
It's just a really hard subject,

1092
00:59:29,500 --> 00:59:32,500
you know, to understand. 
But yeah, I I think you did 

1093
00:59:32,500 --> 00:59:36,540
great. 
What are some counter arguments 

1094
00:59:36,540 --> 00:59:39,380
that you hear against your 
points? 

1095
00:59:39,380 --> 00:59:41,900
Have you, have you heard them 
and how do you address them? 

1096
00:59:42,780 --> 00:59:46,420
There are there are very few 
counter arguments that I've 

1097
00:59:46,420 --> 00:59:48,740
encountered with that like kind 
of hold their veracity, 

1098
00:59:49,460 --> 00:59:52,140
especially against all like the 
points that we kind of made 

1099
00:59:52,140 --> 00:59:54,900
here. 
I think some of them are more 

1100
00:59:54,900 --> 00:59:57,310
like things that I can just 
understand like we were talking 

1101
00:59:57,310 --> 00:59:58,870
about like the volatility for 
example. 

1102
00:59:59,270 --> 01:00:02,470
I can, I can absolutely 
understand investors not wanting

1103
01:00:02,470 --> 01:00:05,230
to have their wealth fluctuate 
that much. 

1104
01:00:06,470 --> 01:00:09,230
But like like we said, that's 
not an intrinsic characteristic 

1105
01:00:09,230 --> 01:00:11,510
of the technology, but rather 
just the young and evolving 

1106
01:00:11,510 --> 01:00:16,110
nature of Bitcoin. 
I think that a lot of the time 

1107
01:00:16,670 --> 01:00:19,070
sometimes we get a little ahead 
of ourselves on certain things 

1108
01:00:19,070 --> 01:00:22,390
and we we base, we talk a lot of
like. 

1109
01:00:22,820 --> 01:00:25,900
In like kind of future 
speculation of of what Bitcoin 

1110
01:00:25,940 --> 01:00:32,140
will do or what it can do which 
can get a little carried away a 

1111
01:00:32,140 --> 01:00:34,660
little bit. 
I mean anything is possible 

1112
01:00:34,660 --> 01:00:36,580
right? 
And Bitcoin is is demonstrating 

1113
01:00:36,580 --> 01:00:41,340
remarkable resilience and and 
growth and and just emerging 

1114
01:00:41,340 --> 01:00:44,660
with so many like real world use
cases. 

1115
01:00:47,220 --> 01:00:50,940
Yeah I I'm not sure there's like
any specific arguments how about

1116
01:00:50,940 --> 01:00:54,220
you, have you encountered any 
sort of like really good 

1117
01:00:54,340 --> 01:00:58,260
arguments against it you there's
the whole like deflation thing I

1118
01:00:58,260 --> 01:01:01,220
guess. 
But I personally I I don't 

1119
01:01:01,220 --> 01:01:04,460
believe that. 
I don't think like deflation is 

1120
01:01:04,460 --> 01:01:06,580
necessarily as bad as people 
make it out to be. 

1121
01:01:08,700 --> 01:01:10,660
Nay, I agree. 
I actually had. 

1122
01:01:12,580 --> 01:01:14,500
A conversation today about 
Bitcoin with. 

1123
01:01:14,920 --> 01:01:20,000
Two people who both own Bitcoin 
but they were both like, you 

1124
01:01:20,000 --> 01:01:24,320
know, very, very small 
percentage of of their of their 

1125
01:01:24,320 --> 01:01:27,360
wealth and they we were talking 
about that. 

1126
01:01:27,360 --> 01:01:31,200
They were asking like, OK, how 
you know, these are the things 

1127
01:01:31,200 --> 01:01:35,820
that kind of hold me back from. 
Allocating more. 

1128
01:01:35,820 --> 01:01:38,140
Right. 
And I think we touched on a few 

1129
01:01:38,140 --> 01:01:42,140
of these myths, actually. 
And I also try to kind of like, 

1130
01:01:42,580 --> 01:01:44,940
you know disprove them. 
And we talked about it, but it's

1131
01:01:44,940 --> 01:01:47,100
just it's really. 
And then I said like, well, 

1132
01:01:47,100 --> 01:01:48,660
yeah, I could go along with 
this. 

1133
01:01:48,660 --> 01:01:50,140
But, you know like, so it's 
still. 

1134
01:01:50,580 --> 01:01:54,540
I don't think it's it's well, I 
hope this podcast would will be 

1135
01:01:54,540 --> 01:01:57,980
for a lot of people, but it's, 
it's, it's hard to dismiss these

1136
01:01:57,980 --> 01:01:59,940
things in like 1 conversation. 
Right. 

1137
01:01:59,940 --> 01:02:04,330
So you can even hear this. 
As you explained it well in this

1138
01:02:04,330 --> 01:02:07,610
episode, I think, But you still 
have to kind of like do your own

1139
01:02:07,610 --> 01:02:10,970
research in a sense, right? 
Like, yeah, well, maybe some 

1140
01:02:10,970 --> 01:02:13,410
people will think like, well, 
what Bob Morris access. 

1141
01:02:13,490 --> 01:02:17,610
I'm just going to adopt that and
then I'm going full into 

1142
01:02:17,610 --> 01:02:19,490
Bitcoin. 
I don't think that's going to 

1143
01:02:19,490 --> 01:02:22,330
happen, right. 
So you still have to do your own

1144
01:02:22,330 --> 01:02:26,570
work in a sense, and and yeah, 
challenge your own own beliefs. 

1145
01:02:28,900 --> 01:02:31,460
But no, yeah. 
So back to that conversation. 

1146
01:02:31,460 --> 01:02:35,420
Like, yeah, they had like these 
general, general counter 

1147
01:02:36,020 --> 01:02:38,500
feelings. 
I almost want to say, right, 

1148
01:02:39,060 --> 01:02:41,940
Yeah, in the future it could be 
this or that or XYZ. 

1149
01:02:41,940 --> 01:02:46,380
And then I say, yeah, that's a 
lot of that stuff is kind of 

1150
01:02:46,380 --> 01:02:48,300
like a straw man in a sense, 
right? 

1151
01:02:48,660 --> 01:02:51,980
It could go bad because 
something, something, you know, 

1152
01:02:51,980 --> 01:02:55,300
a lot of ifs and yeah, ifs, 
buts, whens, yeah. 

1153
01:02:55,300 --> 01:02:59,300
And. 
So I kind of tried to steer like

1154
01:02:59,300 --> 01:03:02,700
those conversations more 
towards, you know, giving them 

1155
01:03:02,700 --> 01:03:05,380
some resources or things to read
or to watch. 

1156
01:03:05,380 --> 01:03:10,180
Like, you know, this is what 
turned on, you know, some lights

1157
01:03:10,180 --> 01:03:14,300
and switches in my head that 
made me dive into this more. 

1158
01:03:16,180 --> 01:03:18,850
Yeah, but. 
Yeah, I also have not really 

1159
01:03:18,850 --> 01:03:21,130
seen any good counter arguments 
in general. 

1160
01:03:21,130 --> 01:03:25,210
Also not on Twitter from, you 
know, all these critics or even 

1161
01:03:25,210 --> 01:03:27,770
someone like Peter Schiff or 
something, you know, like that. 

1162
01:03:28,570 --> 01:03:30,650
Yeah, it just sounds like an 
angry old man. 

1163
01:03:30,650 --> 01:03:35,450
Like there's no real debate, you
know, And it's just, it's just 

1164
01:03:35,450 --> 01:03:38,410
hating in a sense. 
And then I think like, yeah, 

1165
01:03:39,250 --> 01:03:42,690
yeah, I don't know, I, I pity 
that as kind of what I mentioned

1166
01:03:42,690 --> 01:03:43,330
before. 
Right. 

1167
01:03:43,330 --> 01:03:48,360
Like if there's so many people. 
Very, very smart people, 

1168
01:03:48,360 --> 01:03:51,320
actually. 
Every day I see, I see people 

1169
01:03:51,320 --> 01:03:54,120
that, well, every day. 
I almost get my mind blown in a 

1170
01:03:54,120 --> 01:03:57,360
sense of just how intelligent 
people are Bitcoin and how they 

1171
01:03:57,360 --> 01:04:00,360
look at things and share, you 
know, And then, yeah, if someone

1172
01:04:00,360 --> 01:04:03,400
like Peter Schiff, well, for 
people listening, it's like a. 

1173
01:04:03,900 --> 01:04:06,380
Apparently a famous gold 
investor or something. 

1174
01:04:06,660 --> 01:04:08,860
I don't know. 
He's just always screaming like 

1175
01:04:08,860 --> 01:04:10,380
all these Bitcoin idiots and 
blah, blah. 

1176
01:04:10,420 --> 01:04:12,700
I don't know, Like, I kind of 
pity that, right? 

1177
01:04:12,700 --> 01:04:14,860
Like, I don't really care what 
he does with gold, right? 

1178
01:04:14,860 --> 01:04:17,660
Like, why would we scream about 
our gold socks or something? 

1179
01:04:17,660 --> 01:04:20,060
I don't, I don't know enough 
about gold to even say that. 

1180
01:04:20,820 --> 01:04:23,300
So yeah, why? 
You know, why would I even do 

1181
01:04:23,300 --> 01:04:25,340
that? 
So yeah, I don't know. 

1182
01:04:25,420 --> 01:04:27,060
Yeah. 
Again, like I pity that a bit. 

1183
01:04:27,380 --> 01:04:29,860
He gets, he gets a lot of 
engagement from the Bitcoin 

1184
01:04:29,860 --> 01:04:31,860
content. 
If you like, look at at the 

1185
01:04:31,860 --> 01:04:34,100
tweets where he's like 
criticizing Bitcoin, they are 

1186
01:04:34,100 --> 01:04:37,100
like, you know, twice as many 
views, likes and engagements 

1187
01:04:37,100 --> 01:04:38,500
than anything else that he 
tweets. 

1188
01:04:38,980 --> 01:04:42,140
So, like, he's probably doing 
that to just like broaden his 

1189
01:04:42,140 --> 01:04:44,940
audience. 
But yeah, like I like you were 

1190
01:04:44,940 --> 01:04:47,220
saying, like I I definitely 
encourage that actually makes me

1191
01:04:47,220 --> 01:04:48,420
pity it more. 
Yeah. 

1192
01:04:49,340 --> 01:04:54,100
You know, but yeah, yeah, 
totally, Yeah and yeah. 

1193
01:04:55,150 --> 01:04:57,070
No, go ahead. 
Yeah, I think the most important

1194
01:04:57,070 --> 01:04:59,550
thing like for anybody watching 
is, yeah, do your do your own 

1195
01:04:59,550 --> 01:05:02,190
research and come to your own 
conclusions. 

1196
01:05:03,110 --> 01:05:06,030
I mean this was sort of one of 
the reasons I I started writing 

1197
01:05:06,310 --> 01:05:10,510
my newsletter in general was 
because I just saw so much so 

1198
01:05:10,510 --> 01:05:14,230
much misinformation swirling 
around and I really wanted to 

1199
01:05:14,230 --> 01:05:17,590
just like kind of cut cut 
through that and provide like 

1200
01:05:17,590 --> 01:05:24,870
clear concise facts instead of 
just a lot of of wishy washy 

1201
01:05:24,870 --> 01:05:28,310
misinformation and and competing
narratives and stuff like that. 

1202
01:05:28,310 --> 01:05:31,270
And it also is a way it's like I
knew that a lot of my friends 

1203
01:05:31,270 --> 01:05:34,350
and family were not going to be,
you know tuning in to to Bitcoin

1204
01:05:34,350 --> 01:05:35,830
podcasts or reading Bitcoin 
books. 

1205
01:05:35,830 --> 01:05:38,630
But they might actually, you 
know read read the newsletter 

1206
01:05:38,630 --> 01:05:40,990
that I'm writing about this 
realize that I'm taking this 

1207
01:05:41,030 --> 01:05:43,590
very seriously. 
And I hope that they can they 

1208
01:05:43,590 --> 01:05:47,150
take it seriously as well 
because like and particularly 

1209
01:05:47,150 --> 01:05:50,790
this article Bitcoin myths. 
Like I I wrote it in the hope 

1210
01:05:50,790 --> 01:05:55,310
that people realize that this 
like we were saying, it's not a 

1211
01:05:55,470 --> 01:05:56,790
not a black and white issue at 
all. 

1212
01:05:56,790 --> 01:06:01,710
Bitcoin is not black and white. 
It is a very new innovative and 

1213
01:06:01,710 --> 01:06:05,230
breakthrough technology that's 
going to change so many of the 

1214
01:06:05,230 --> 01:06:08,670
ways that we interact with the 
world and our economic systems. 

1215
01:06:08,710 --> 01:06:11,870
And it has so many benefits when
you, whether you're thinking 

1216
01:06:11,870 --> 01:06:15,150
about economic benefits, social 
benefits, environmental 

1217
01:06:15,150 --> 01:06:17,950
benefits, it it touches all of 
these areas of our lives. 

1218
01:06:17,950 --> 01:06:22,170
And that's because money is is 
one of the most important things

1219
01:06:22,170 --> 01:06:25,010
that we use right. 
Like it it forms the foundation 

1220
01:06:25,010 --> 01:06:28,690
of all savings and trade and 
investment and that that they're

1221
01:06:28,690 --> 01:06:31,450
kind of like from there 
influences so many different 

1222
01:06:31,450 --> 01:06:36,210
aspects of our lives that it's 
so subtle, it's so it's so deep 

1223
01:06:36,290 --> 01:06:38,290
that people don't even realize 
it, right. 

1224
01:06:38,290 --> 01:06:40,250
And we don't think about the 
money that we use. 

1225
01:06:40,490 --> 01:06:43,130
But when you start to think 
about the money that we use and 

1226
01:06:43,130 --> 01:06:47,210
the possibility for Bitcoin to 
serve as a new form of money 

1227
01:06:47,210 --> 01:06:51,410
that we use and returning to the
to sound money, to hard money, 

1228
01:06:51,850 --> 01:06:55,170
money free from inflation and 
what that means for our current 

1229
01:06:55,170 --> 01:06:57,850
systems and how we interact with
the world and the problems we're

1230
01:06:57,850 --> 01:07:00,930
facing, it's it's immensely 
powerful and it's it's an 

1231
01:07:00,930 --> 01:07:03,330
incredibly rewarding journey. 
So I I encourage anyone watching

1232
01:07:03,330 --> 01:07:06,690
to to really to do their own 
research and and look more into 

1233
01:07:06,690 --> 01:07:09,730
Bitcoin because this is, it's 
not going anywhere. 

1234
01:07:11,130 --> 01:07:12,330
Awesome man. 
I love that. 

1235
01:07:12,370 --> 01:07:14,450
I have I have two final 
questions. 

1236
01:07:14,450 --> 01:07:18,210
Are there any myths between when
you wrote this article and now 

1237
01:07:18,650 --> 01:07:21,770
that came up that you think are 
worth mentioning? 

1238
01:07:23,410 --> 01:07:26,010
Not really. 
Are there are there any ones 

1239
01:07:26,010 --> 01:07:28,810
that you kind of you were 
getting that that I didn't touch

1240
01:07:28,810 --> 01:07:31,370
on? 
I'm I'm curious honestly if I 

1241
01:07:31,370 --> 01:07:35,610
missed any important ones. 
I wrote down the question but I 

1242
01:07:35,610 --> 01:07:43,600
didn't think about it. 
Well, I, I, I, I do think 

1243
01:07:43,600 --> 01:07:46,280
there's people who say like oh 
there's not enough, you know 

1244
01:07:46,280 --> 01:07:51,680
there's only 21 million. 
I think we need to tell people 

1245
01:07:51,680 --> 01:07:55,840
more people that you can, you 
know, it's it's divisible by 100

1246
01:07:55,840 --> 01:07:59,800
million exactly. 
And I don't know the exact 

1247
01:07:59,800 --> 01:08:02,800
numbers, but I once read an 
article that that it could have 

1248
01:08:02,800 --> 01:08:07,560
like some parity being like 1. 
One set, you know the the 

1249
01:08:07,560 --> 01:08:13,920
smallest like 1100 million of a 
Bitcoin, if that's one cent it 

1250
01:08:13,920 --> 01:08:19,279
would still it would work 
basically as a as a money. 

1251
01:08:21,359 --> 01:08:24,800
I think that's like the main 
the, the, the maybe the one 

1252
01:08:24,800 --> 01:08:27,040
extra thing. 
But I I think in general it's 

1253
01:08:27,040 --> 01:08:30,120
the ones you you touched upon, 
right. 

1254
01:08:30,600 --> 01:08:34,590
Yeah, even today. 
It's a it's a bubble. 

1255
01:08:34,590 --> 01:08:36,990
Do you still think it could be 
higher or whatever like people 

1256
01:08:37,830 --> 01:08:41,149
and the environment one I think 
for me again like those are the 

1257
01:08:41,149 --> 01:08:44,270
main ones that that that I hear.
Yeah. 

1258
01:08:46,270 --> 01:08:48,750
Yeah. 
So last question I ask everyone 

1259
01:08:48,750 --> 01:08:52,630
the same question what's what's 
a core belief you will never let

1260
01:08:52,630 --> 01:08:55,069
go. 
I core believe I will never let 

1261
01:08:55,069 --> 01:08:58,069
go, man. 
I wish I'd thought about this 

1262
01:08:58,069 --> 01:09:00,229
before. 
Everyone has to think about this

1263
01:09:06,819 --> 01:09:08,979
I guess freedom of choice and 
expression. 

1264
01:09:08,979 --> 01:09:12,300
I think that that is like at the
core of a a peaceful and 

1265
01:09:12,300 --> 01:09:14,939
civilized society. 
And I think that's also really 

1266
01:09:14,939 --> 01:09:18,420
reinforced by Bitcoin and like 
like the idea of really strong 

1267
01:09:18,420 --> 01:09:19,700
property rights and things like 
that. 

1268
01:09:19,779 --> 01:09:24,100
Because that that that kind of 
builds the the basis for 

1269
01:09:24,580 --> 01:09:27,300
functioning A functioning 
economy And and as someone who 

1270
01:09:27,300 --> 01:09:30,500
kind of views the world through 
the world of economics and 

1271
01:09:30,500 --> 01:09:32,779
through the like a very monetary
lens. 

1272
01:09:32,779 --> 01:09:35,620
I believe like the economic 
system we use just is so 

1273
01:09:35,620 --> 01:09:39,620
important in our day-to-day 
lives that using the best system

1274
01:09:39,620 --> 01:09:43,340
possible is extremely important.
Awesome. 

1275
01:09:43,340 --> 01:09:47,140
Well, thanks for busting. 
Bitcoin myths here. 

1276
01:09:47,939 --> 01:09:50,779
My pleasure. 
Can people find you online? 

1277
01:09:50,779 --> 01:09:52,700
Where can I follow you totally 
and use your stuff? 

1278
01:09:53,260 --> 01:09:59,040
Yeah, I'm on Twitter a lot at 
Zach Guinard or just Zach G 

1279
01:09:59,400 --> 01:10:04,320
You'll find me on there tweeting
quite a bit as well as my 

1280
01:10:04,320 --> 01:10:06,400
newsletter through Sub Stack 
which is called the Bit 

1281
01:10:06,400 --> 01:10:08,800
Conomist. 
Those are mainly the two, the 

1282
01:10:08,800 --> 01:10:12,040
two places Twitter I use mostly 
for like short form stuff and 

1283
01:10:12,040 --> 01:10:14,160
then anytime I want to write 
like a more lengthly article 

1284
01:10:14,160 --> 01:10:16,880
touching on topics within 
Bitcoin and economics, it goes 

1285
01:10:16,880 --> 01:10:20,800
right onto my sub stack. 
So either of those are are great

1286
01:10:20,800 --> 01:10:23,360
places to to keep in touch and 
and see the work that I'm doing.

1287
01:10:24,790 --> 01:10:26,190
Awesome. 
I will link to your. 

1288
01:10:26,630 --> 01:10:32,070
Twitter X profile and and sub 
stack in in the show notes. 

1289
01:10:32,190 --> 01:10:35,230
Thanks again for coming on and 
yeah, let's stay in touch and 

1290
01:10:35,270 --> 01:10:38,110
and do this sometime again in 
the future. 

1291
01:10:38,390 --> 01:10:39,990
Absolutely. 
Thank you so much for having me.

1292
01:10:40,150 --> 01:10:42,550
I hope you enjoyed this episode.
If you did, it would be. 

1293
01:10:42,950 --> 01:10:45,750
If you could rate, review and 
subscribe on the podcast 

1294
01:10:45,750 --> 01:10:49,190
platform of your choice, it will
help us educate more millennials

1295
01:10:49,190 --> 01:10:52,180
on the importance of Bitcoin. 
You can follow and connect with 

1296
01:10:52,180 --> 01:10:55,460
me on Twitter. 
I'm Brom K That's at Bramk. 

1297
01:10:56,020 --> 01:10:58,180
And if you are or know someone 
who has an interesting 

1298
01:10:58,180 --> 01:11:00,620
perspective on Bitcoin that's 
worth sharing, hit me up. 

1299
01:11:00,980 --> 01:11:02,740
I read and reply to every single
message. 

1300
01:11:03,020 --> 01:11:05,540
I appreciate your support and 
hope you'll be here for the next

1301
01:11:05,540 --> 01:11:06,980
episode. 
Thanks for listening. 

1302
01:11:07,260 --> 01:11:07,500
Bye.