1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:03,280 The hardest part about your Bitcoin journey isn't learning 2 00:00:03,280 --> 00:00:07,200 how it works, it's unlearning everything that you were taught 3 00:00:07,200 --> 00:00:11,120 about how the world functions. Jeff Booth is back on Bitcoin 4 00:00:11,120 --> 00:00:14,240 for millennials and we discussed the prisoner's dilemma of modern 5 00:00:14,240 --> 00:00:18,560 money, why we've never actually lived in a free market, and how 6 00:00:18,560 --> 00:00:22,600 the current debt based money system forces everyone, even the 7 00:00:22,600 --> 00:00:25,520 winners, into a game of voluntary serve them. 8 00:00:25,920 --> 00:00:28,720 Jeff reveals why the system's attempts to control money are 9 00:00:28,720 --> 00:00:31,480 mathematically doomed and why the truth of the Bitcoin 10 00:00:31,480 --> 00:00:34,480 protocol is the only assets that cannot be captured. 11 00:00:34,760 --> 00:00:38,040 This episode is the big picture reality check that I think a lot 12 00:00:38,040 --> 00:00:40,840 of people need right now. Don't forget that you are 13 00:00:40,840 --> 00:00:44,200 playing a crucial role in the biggest transition of our 14 00:00:44,200 --> 00:00:46,720 lifetimes. All right, let's dive in. 15 00:00:50,440 --> 00:00:53,800 All right, Jeff Booth, welcome back to Bitcoin for Millennials. 16 00:00:54,160 --> 00:00:56,800 Great to see you buddy. Yeah, we have about an hour. 17 00:00:56,800 --> 00:00:59,480 So let's see how far we how far we get. 18 00:00:59,480 --> 00:01:02,440 I put on XI was talking to you and a lot of people send me 19 00:01:02,440 --> 00:01:05,400 questions. So I've I've quite a few, but I 20 00:01:05,400 --> 00:01:09,880 wanted to start with, I don't want to say a bone to pick with 21 00:01:09,880 --> 00:01:12,840 you, but I really wonder if we can get to some sort of 22 00:01:12,840 --> 00:01:16,960 consensus on on the topic of medium of exchange and and store 23 00:01:16,960 --> 00:01:19,800 value. So as, as you know, I love your 24 00:01:19,800 --> 00:01:21,800 philosophy. You've taught me a huge amount 25 00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:24,760 along the way, But there's one thing that I really disagree 26 00:01:24,760 --> 00:01:28,200 with you on, which is you say that Bitcoin will fail if it 27 00:01:28,200 --> 00:01:30,800 doesn't come become a medium of exchange. 28 00:01:31,280 --> 00:01:34,720 But wouldn't you agree that before it can be that it should 29 00:01:34,720 --> 00:01:38,520 be abundantly clear that it is the best store of value, right? 30 00:01:38,520 --> 00:01:40,360 That the hardest money to ever exist? 31 00:01:40,360 --> 00:01:45,080 Like it isn't cash or any stable coin or any whatever any other 32 00:01:45,080 --> 00:01:48,760 person accepts as a reward in a value exchange way better to 33 00:01:48,760 --> 00:01:53,280 discard off than the best store of value to to ever exist. 34 00:01:53,280 --> 00:01:56,680 If, if Bitcoin is kind of like this measurement for value, the 35 00:01:57,040 --> 00:02:00,560 the ruler and we measure everything in Bitcoin, does it 36 00:02:00,560 --> 00:02:07,920 really matter what people exchange value in eventually if 37 00:02:07,920 --> 00:02:11,440 the underpinning is Bitcoin? I hope, I hope that makes sense. 38 00:02:11,440 --> 00:02:14,160 I just, I just, you know, there's a sequence in, in 39 00:02:14,160 --> 00:02:17,440 getting there where, where you think we should go. 40 00:02:17,760 --> 00:02:19,760 Yeah. No, I don't, I don't believe 41 00:02:19,760 --> 00:02:22,360 that. And I can tell you tell you why 42 00:02:22,360 --> 00:02:25,640 and I just tell you the why the risks of what that what you just 43 00:02:25,640 --> 00:02:29,080 described would be the risks. So from that, from that 44 00:02:29,080 --> 00:02:32,920 viewpoint of it's a store of value first, right, We've always 45 00:02:32,920 --> 00:02:36,160 had stores about why do you need a store of value underneath the 46 00:02:36,160 --> 00:02:40,520 monetary system? Have you ever thought about 47 00:02:40,520 --> 00:02:45,000 that? Well, I, I would, I would say 48 00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:48,600 it's a function of of of something that I don't want to 49 00:02:48,600 --> 00:02:50,640 spend today. So so. 50 00:02:51,400 --> 00:02:54,400 So let me let me poke on that. You've needed a store value 51 00:02:54,400 --> 00:02:58,360 because you couldn't store your value value in money because 52 00:02:58,360 --> 00:03:00,200 because money's always been broken. 53 00:03:00,920 --> 00:03:04,600 So what gives the financial system a belief that it won't be 54 00:03:04,600 --> 00:03:07,360 centralized and and work? And that's what's happened to 55 00:03:07,360 --> 00:03:10,760 gold is a store of value is everybody thinks that it's 56 00:03:10,800 --> 00:03:13,800 underneath the monetary system. And then you have a broken 57 00:03:13,800 --> 00:03:17,360 monetary system that is the opposite of the free market that 58 00:03:17,360 --> 00:03:19,920 has to concentrate faster and faster. 59 00:03:20,320 --> 00:03:23,880 And that monetary system that's centralizing and is it's it's 60 00:03:23,880 --> 00:03:29,160 still theft on top of that system because and it's faster 61 00:03:29,160 --> 00:03:31,760 and faster theft. And then it has to break the 62 00:03:31,760 --> 00:03:34,240 rules of the centralization, right? 63 00:03:34,240 --> 00:03:37,440 Yeah. So so it has to change gold the 64 00:03:37,440 --> 00:03:41,200 rules, it has to confiscate or attack another country to stay, 65 00:03:41,200 --> 00:03:44,080 to take it, to maintain its advantage. 66 00:03:44,680 --> 00:03:46,640 And so that's the world that we've always known. 67 00:03:46,840 --> 00:03:49,840 And that's why people think things turn into a store of 68 00:03:49,840 --> 00:03:52,880 value 1st and then a monetary system because we've never known 69 00:03:53,320 --> 00:03:56,520 something that was a protocol that was a network that was both 70 00:03:56,520 --> 00:04:00,680 at the same time. Yeah, we'd we've never so so, 71 00:04:00,760 --> 00:04:04,160 but, but so I understand why you would believe that and I 72 00:04:04,160 --> 00:04:11,280 understand and and but now ask if everybody did that and it had 73 00:04:11,280 --> 00:04:15,440 to be a store of value first, what would be the implications 74 00:04:15,440 --> 00:04:20,600 of those actions? It was centralized, right? 75 00:04:21,399 --> 00:04:24,800 What would be the implications of the centralized actions Then 76 00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:28,680 all of the governments would would all the rails to it. 77 00:04:30,240 --> 00:04:33,160 And then what would they do now? You know, remember, we're not 78 00:04:33,160 --> 00:04:36,280 dealing with any type of technology we've ever dealt 79 00:04:36,280 --> 00:04:37,400 with. We're talking about a 80 00:04:37,400 --> 00:04:40,760 surveillance state with AI and surveillance state and 81 00:04:40,760 --> 00:04:43,600 capabilities that you can't even imagine how fast it's 82 00:04:43,600 --> 00:04:46,280 centralizing. When you look at Palantir, when 83 00:04:46,280 --> 00:04:48,400 you look at Pegasus and everything that's they're 84 00:04:48,400 --> 00:04:51,680 already monitoring everything you're doing, right? 85 00:04:51,840 --> 00:04:53,720 Yeah. You're, you can be shut off on 86 00:04:53,720 --> 00:04:56,000 YouTube tomorrow. You can your voice can be drawn 87 00:04:56,320 --> 00:04:59,880 inside the surveillance state X all of this thing. 88 00:05:00,320 --> 00:05:04,480 And there's right now almost a fight between the bankers and 89 00:05:04,480 --> 00:05:07,440 the technocrats. And the technocrats own the 90 00:05:07,440 --> 00:05:11,800 means of production today. And people are taking sides 91 00:05:11,800 --> 00:05:16,000 within that, believing that they're safe, they're new God, 92 00:05:16,960 --> 00:05:20,200 which is centralizing faster, right? 93 00:05:20,480 --> 00:05:23,680 And they're using all of the same rails into that. 94 00:05:24,000 --> 00:05:26,920 So now if you just keep on asking that question, what would 95 00:05:26,920 --> 00:05:29,400 it look like if you had surveillance capabilities over 96 00:05:29,400 --> 00:05:33,400 the entire population? They were even if they were in 97 00:05:33,400 --> 00:05:38,440 self custody, but you were still operating in the other system. 98 00:05:39,920 --> 00:05:42,480 Do you think, do you, do you think Bitcoin could? 99 00:05:42,640 --> 00:05:45,920 Because what would happen after that is you would launch an 100 00:05:45,920 --> 00:05:48,680 attack, you'd launch a chain split that you can only use my 101 00:05:48,680 --> 00:05:50,360 Bitcoin. Yeah. 102 00:05:51,080 --> 00:05:54,720 And that chain split would be really dangerous for the people 103 00:05:54,720 --> 00:05:59,240 that were, were the small number of people and, and the people 104 00:05:59,240 --> 00:06:01,280 that weren't using it as a medium of exchange. 105 00:06:01,280 --> 00:06:05,560 And there was no privacy in it. And, and, and such it would down 106 00:06:05,680 --> 00:06:08,080 now the nodes, people running nodes. 107 00:06:08,440 --> 00:06:12,080 And you'd only have to I'm just going through kind of what you 108 00:06:12,080 --> 00:06:15,160 would expect to see, even though some of those are dark things. 109 00:06:15,840 --> 00:06:20,360 What you'd expect to see is put a couple people in jail, kill a 110 00:06:20,360 --> 00:06:26,000 couple people, say that, say that there is have an event so 111 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:30,960 bad that this this, this group over here created a false flag 112 00:06:31,720 --> 00:06:34,680 and drive people into saying you can only use US coin. 113 00:06:35,360 --> 00:06:38,880 Yeah. And, and, and I, I think under 114 00:06:38,880 --> 00:06:43,400 that type of attack, most people running Bitcoin right now, 115 00:06:43,400 --> 00:06:46,120 especially if they made a whole bunch of money in US coin 116 00:06:46,920 --> 00:06:52,880 wouldn't be Bitcoiners anymore. I mean, I totally follow the 117 00:06:52,880 --> 00:06:57,640 reasoning and I also think just by the characteristics of 118 00:06:57,640 --> 00:07:00,960 Bitcoin, it is already superior money, right? 119 00:07:00,960 --> 00:07:04,560 And you and I could use it as a medium of exchange if if you 120 00:07:04,560 --> 00:07:07,800 would accept it when Ioffer it to you when you deliver value to 121 00:07:07,800 --> 00:07:11,040 me, right? So like conceptually I'm I'm 122 00:07:11,040 --> 00:07:13,280 fully aligned. Why I want to ask the question 123 00:07:13,280 --> 00:07:20,720 is that although I agree with you get getting there is a very, 124 00:07:22,480 --> 00:07:24,320 I want to say social thing, right. 125 00:07:24,320 --> 00:07:29,200 You you cannot force the adoption of of the of the medium 126 00:07:29,200 --> 00:07:31,760 of exchange. And I think it is a rational 127 00:07:31,760 --> 00:07:35,920 choice that you spend the money that is losing value, just, you 128 00:07:35,920 --> 00:07:41,240 know, as, as the incentive that someone has and storing value 129 00:07:41,240 --> 00:07:46,520 today, I'm talking about today in, in Bitcoin until Bitcoin 130 00:07:46,520 --> 00:07:49,520 becomes more accepted. And yes, I agree, you can 131 00:07:49,520 --> 00:07:52,040 participate in that, right? You, you, you can, you know, I 132 00:07:52,040 --> 00:07:54,320 can start asking for more Bitcoin, I can start spending. 133 00:07:54,320 --> 00:07:59,560 So I understand I can do that. But I wonder if that pace or 134 00:07:59,560 --> 00:08:02,360 well, how do you think about that pace towards this future 135 00:08:02,360 --> 00:08:05,600 that that you're describing? How do you think that goes? 136 00:08:05,880 --> 00:08:09,760 It's funny how everybody is wondering what is is so 137 00:08:09,760 --> 00:08:11,560 concerned, what other people should do. 138 00:08:12,760 --> 00:08:15,800 Right. And, and in in this, you're, 139 00:08:15,800 --> 00:08:18,800 you're really saying is I, I don't want to store it. 140 00:08:18,800 --> 00:08:21,240 I don't want to spend it as a medium of exchange. 141 00:08:21,240 --> 00:08:25,280 And that is your right to do. But if people don't, then, then 142 00:08:25,280 --> 00:08:28,640 you won't activate the network as fast you won't, you won't. 143 00:08:28,800 --> 00:08:30,480 There has to be people that do it early. 144 00:08:30,880 --> 00:08:35,320 And I've made a decision to put my energy into the world that I 145 00:08:35,320 --> 00:08:39,080 want to see. And I have no problem spending 146 00:08:39,080 --> 00:08:41,600 in in Bitcoin and then trying to make more in Bitcoin. 147 00:08:41,600 --> 00:08:44,360 I have zero problem with that. I think it's from. 148 00:08:44,400 --> 00:08:47,640 So when you said there was a rational thing, there were the 149 00:08:47,640 --> 00:08:50,680 rational actor is making the best interests of their their 150 00:08:51,800 --> 00:08:54,080 against their beliefs and what they want the world to turn 151 00:08:54,080 --> 00:08:55,080 into. Yeah. 152 00:08:55,640 --> 00:08:58,960 And so, so there's a whole bunch of rational actors and then 153 00:08:58,960 --> 00:09:02,240 there's also rational actors that will take that and say 154 00:09:03,360 --> 00:09:08,520 instead of accepting a system where I'm losing money, I'm 155 00:09:08,520 --> 00:09:14,640 paying 2 1/2 or to 3 1/2% credit card fees or bank fees to take 156 00:09:14,640 --> 00:09:17,680 money that's losing money. Yeah, right. 157 00:09:17,920 --> 00:09:20,240 But which? Which is most of the rational 158 00:09:20,240 --> 00:09:22,480 actors in your in the world that you're talking about? 159 00:09:22,640 --> 00:09:25,160 Well, or oblivious, but they're just doing it right. 160 00:09:25,320 --> 00:09:28,080 They're just doing it. Began They're they're they think 161 00:09:28,080 --> 00:09:30,880 they're rational actors and there's other people are going 162 00:09:30,880 --> 00:09:35,160 to say the fuck at all I am going to give a discount to my 163 00:09:35,160 --> 00:09:39,800 to people who are using my service that pay in Bitcoin yeah 164 00:09:40,080 --> 00:09:41,720 and I'm going to make more margin. 165 00:09:42,080 --> 00:09:44,560 Yes. And so I'm going to win the 166 00:09:44,560 --> 00:09:49,200 market by by by cutting out the middle men and being 167 00:09:49,240 --> 00:09:52,040 peer-to-peer. And as I do that, and, and so 168 00:09:52,280 --> 00:09:55,560 all of these things are happening at the same time and 169 00:09:55,560 --> 00:10:00,080 there is no one audience. And, and in some countries, it's 170 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:05,560 not 2 1/2 to 3 1/2 percent, it might be 10 to 12%, right? 171 00:10:05,760 --> 00:10:08,720 And some countries that they don't have banking that this is 172 00:10:08,720 --> 00:10:11,480 a lifeline. And so, so, and I've said this 173 00:10:11,480 --> 00:10:14,400 on many different podcasts in many different ways, but a 174 00:10:14,400 --> 00:10:18,440 protocol like this, so always fit the monopoly does a 175 00:10:18,440 --> 00:10:21,320 consistent thing to try to protect a monopoly. 176 00:10:21,400 --> 00:10:25,200 We're seeing a monopoly of money trying to stop Bitcoin, right? 177 00:10:26,600 --> 00:10:29,880 When it comes to holding Bitcoin securely, Peace of Mind starts 178 00:10:29,880 --> 00:10:32,640 with architecture. On ramps multi institution 179 00:10:32,640 --> 00:10:36,040 custody model distributes control access across three 180 00:10:36,160 --> 00:10:39,760 independent regulated key holders in a two of three multi 181 00:10:39,760 --> 00:10:42,200 state quorum. No single point of failure, no 182 00:10:42,200 --> 00:10:46,240 pooled or omnibus exposure, just segregated client titled vaults. 183 00:10:46,680 --> 00:10:50,040 You retain full legal ownership or on ramp coordinate security 184 00:10:50,040 --> 00:10:52,800 compliance and operational workflows behind the scenes. 185 00:10:53,400 --> 00:10:56,400 Multi institution custody is the foundation for everything that 186 00:10:56,400 --> 00:10:59,320 on ramp builds sound infrastructure that distributes 187 00:10:59,320 --> 00:11:02,440 counterparty risk and provides fault tolerant resilience with 188 00:11:02,440 --> 00:11:04,760 clear audits and institutional controls. 189 00:11:05,200 --> 00:11:08,880 And now on ramp is piloting flat predictable pricing to make best 190 00:11:08,880 --> 00:11:11,800 in class Bitcoin custody and financial products more 191 00:11:11,800 --> 00:11:15,160 accessible than ever. Visit on rampbitcoin.com to 192 00:11:15,160 --> 00:11:17,280 learn more and sign up with code Bram. 193 00:11:17,280 --> 00:11:22,120 That's BR AM to receive $150.00 in Bitcoin after your first 194 00:11:22,120 --> 00:11:25,480 deposit on ramp. Strength in many, simplicity in 195 00:11:25,480 --> 00:11:27,400 one. When you have a protocol or a or 196 00:11:27,400 --> 00:11:30,040 a new technology, it always starts not from the monopoly. 197 00:11:30,360 --> 00:11:32,640 Who has vested interests inside the monopoly? 198 00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:36,760 And you, and in Europe and me in the US, we're in the top of the 199 00:11:36,760 --> 00:11:38,560 monopoly. Yes. 200 00:11:38,880 --> 00:11:43,600 So we wouldn't see what happens at the at the people that were 201 00:11:43,600 --> 00:11:47,680 extracting from from being at the top of the monopoly, how 202 00:11:47,680 --> 00:11:51,240 they might use this and move move value, value from the 203 00:11:51,240 --> 00:11:53,840 bottom up. And technology always moves from 204 00:11:53,920 --> 00:11:57,240 so it moves from the furthest pit way that people most hurt by 205 00:11:57,240 --> 00:12:01,640 a monopoly go first. So why El Salvador went first is 206 00:12:01,880 --> 00:12:06,200 totally logical, right? Why other countries are racing. 207 00:12:06,200 --> 00:12:10,760 We invested in a company they did 800 million in in, in 208 00:12:10,760 --> 00:12:14,800 transactions 2 years ago, 2.2 billion in transaction in 209 00:12:14,800 --> 00:12:18,600 Africa, 2.2 billion last year, probably does 7 billion in 210 00:12:18,600 --> 00:12:23,200 transactions and enlightening and Bitcoin transactions this 211 00:12:23,200 --> 00:12:24,920 year. Makes perfect sense. 212 00:12:26,480 --> 00:12:29,520 Yeah, but and so and what? And it makes perfect sense why 213 00:12:29,520 --> 00:12:32,520 people in the monopoly would be making different decisions, 214 00:12:32,520 --> 00:12:34,880 because they haven't had to make those decisions. 215 00:12:35,120 --> 00:12:38,360 Yeah, again, I agree with that. And this is also where my 216 00:12:38,560 --> 00:12:41,560 question comes from. So it's not necessarily from my 217 00:12:41,560 --> 00:12:43,760 own point of view. I'm just when I'm looking at 218 00:12:44,680 --> 00:12:48,040 other people and I think I agree with you, you know, in in our 219 00:12:48,040 --> 00:12:52,160 sphere of, of the world, their, their need for understanding 220 00:12:52,480 --> 00:12:55,600 that their money is broken. Although, you know, a lot of 221 00:12:55,600 --> 00:12:58,960 things around them are happening as, as we can see, because we 222 00:12:58,960 --> 00:13:01,120 are, you know, interested or curious or whatever. 223 00:13:01,120 --> 00:13:04,920 There's a lot of people that are totally oblivious to monetary 224 00:13:04,920 --> 00:13:06,360 debasement. They're pointing all the all, 225 00:13:06,360 --> 00:13:11,080 all, all different types of ways not at the at the source of 226 00:13:11,080 --> 00:13:13,800 this, right. So that is kind of where I'm 227 00:13:13,800 --> 00:13:17,200 coming from. It's like, OK, and I don't want 228 00:13:17,200 --> 00:13:19,040 to trick you because there's no good answer, right? 229 00:13:19,040 --> 00:13:22,000 But like what is big enough? Like what is a big enough 230 00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:25,160 acceptance? When, when, when Bitcoin does 231 00:13:25,160 --> 00:13:26,720 survive as this medium of exchange? 232 00:13:26,720 --> 00:13:29,200 I just think there's it's it's really hard to put a number on 233 00:13:29,200 --> 00:13:32,680 it, but I do see the same challenge as in, OK, how do we 234 00:13:32,680 --> 00:13:38,000 convince people to not only first protect their wealth from 235 00:13:38,000 --> 00:13:41,160 the basement that is I think step one that is getting into 236 00:13:41,160 --> 00:13:44,880 Bitcoin and then Step 2 is continuing to use this better 237 00:13:44,880 --> 00:13:47,040 money right as a medium of exchange. 238 00:13:47,040 --> 00:13:50,800 So it does proliferate and you know, more people get in touch 239 00:13:50,800 --> 00:13:53,600 with etcetera. And that is how it how it gets 240 00:13:54,280 --> 00:13:56,920 adopted. And so my main thing is more 241 00:13:56,920 --> 00:14:01,440 like, OK, if that is why I said the rational thing, right? 242 00:14:01,440 --> 00:14:04,920 If you know, your first step is, OK, I got to protect my wealth 243 00:14:04,920 --> 00:14:07,920 in Bitcoin. And the thing that I still spend 244 00:14:07,920 --> 00:14:10,560 in this transition period is perhaps Fiat money or stable 245 00:14:10,560 --> 00:14:13,480 coins or, you know, whatever whoever Walmart coins something 246 00:14:13,720 --> 00:14:16,520 right there is this transition phase. 247 00:14:16,520 --> 00:14:20,560 And I just, I'm just curious about the, the pace of how fast 248 00:14:20,560 --> 00:14:25,520 that should go versus the future that you are projecting, because 249 00:14:25,760 --> 00:14:30,960 you already see that a lot of centralized forces are paying 250 00:14:30,960 --> 00:14:34,080 attention to Bitcoin or are trying to choke it, right? 251 00:14:34,080 --> 00:14:37,680 Like in in the EU, there's also already a lot of regulation 252 00:14:38,080 --> 00:14:41,680 where, you know, people have to register KYCML, all all these 253 00:14:41,680 --> 00:14:44,520 things. So there, there is a notion of a 254 00:14:44,520 --> 00:14:47,520 certain threat. I would say, although they're 255 00:14:47,520 --> 00:14:51,880 not calling it that, but they're doing a lot of things to kind of 256 00:14:51,880 --> 00:14:56,080 narrow, I would say the group of people that that would adopt and 257 00:14:56,080 --> 00:14:59,080 and use it. So I'm just just wondering about 258 00:14:59,080 --> 00:15:02,840 this timeline because again, I agree with you, but I also think 259 00:15:02,840 --> 00:15:06,760 that you cannot force the medium of exchange use on people that 260 00:15:06,760 --> 00:15:11,560 is a very individual so. If you have, I see people 261 00:15:11,560 --> 00:15:14,640 starting from medium of exchange before store value. 262 00:15:16,280 --> 00:15:18,760 OK, I've been to many circular economies around the world where 263 00:15:18,760 --> 00:15:22,080 it starts at meaning of exchange instead of your perception as it 264 00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:23,000 starts. Exactly. 265 00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:25,440 Yeah, yeah, yeah. And and, and many other people 266 00:15:25,440 --> 00:15:29,760 in in first world countries start star value. 267 00:15:29,760 --> 00:15:34,160 So it's it's a very unique thing to you that you're ascribing to. 268 00:15:34,160 --> 00:15:38,720 It has to look like that for everyone, yes, and, and, and it 269 00:15:38,720 --> 00:15:43,320 doesn't it people should use this how they determine to use 270 00:15:43,320 --> 00:15:46,160 it in their best interests and what they think the the world 271 00:15:46,160 --> 00:15:48,400 looks like. When I think, when I think about 272 00:15:48,400 --> 00:15:52,520 our own agency in this, each of our own agency, which we've 273 00:15:52,520 --> 00:15:57,400 always given to somebody else. If you're operating in the Fiat 274 00:15:57,400 --> 00:15:59,760 system, if you're spending all of your time and energy in the 275 00:15:59,760 --> 00:16:04,640 Fiat system and yelling at the same Fiat system, who's to 276 00:16:04,640 --> 00:16:07,760 blame? No, I I agree. 277 00:16:07,760 --> 00:16:10,400 We we've talked about this before, but I think it's just 278 00:16:10,440 --> 00:16:13,440 interesting. That's kind of what I'm getting 279 00:16:13,440 --> 00:16:16,120 at. And but and I don't again, 280 00:16:16,800 --> 00:16:19,280 people don't have to agree. They disagree. 281 00:16:19,280 --> 00:16:24,200 I love the disagreement right from, from, from this, but what 282 00:16:24,200 --> 00:16:29,840 I what makes me so positive that this is going to work and stay 283 00:16:29,840 --> 00:16:33,480 decentralized and secure and impose its building and layers 284 00:16:33,480 --> 00:16:39,960 and everything else and, and do exactly what I suspect is I'm in 285 00:16:39,960 --> 00:16:43,920 that environment every day. Yeah, I'm talking to those 286 00:16:43,920 --> 00:16:46,640 people every day. I'm talking to the builders who 287 00:16:46,640 --> 00:16:49,640 are never going back, who are building this. 288 00:16:49,640 --> 00:16:51,520 I'm going into the circular economies. 289 00:16:51,520 --> 00:16:55,080 I'm watching what's changing. I'm watching the people move 290 00:16:55,080 --> 00:17:00,600 from fear to hope, thousands of them, right who who are adding 291 00:17:00,600 --> 00:17:03,600 their voice to this network and him and spending more time and 292 00:17:03,600 --> 00:17:05,680 building into the to this network. 293 00:17:05,960 --> 00:17:12,760 And I'm also watching people who never knew this unlock and move 294 00:17:12,760 --> 00:17:15,839 and move and move exactly what you just described. 295 00:17:16,440 --> 00:17:19,520 Pieces sometimes store value first, then I want to learn a 296 00:17:19,520 --> 00:17:21,960 little bit more. How do I move more time into it? 297 00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:25,280 I'm watching the entire thing, but what would it feel like if 298 00:17:25,280 --> 00:17:31,280 there's, let's call it 10,000 people over here and 8 billion 299 00:17:31,280 --> 00:17:35,440 people over here with all the misunderstandings of everything 300 00:17:35,440 --> 00:17:38,200 else about what Bitcoin is, that it's a protocol, that it's 301 00:17:38,200 --> 00:17:41,200 emerging in layers. What would the world look like 302 00:17:42,080 --> 00:17:47,480 in the noise of the world today? It would look exactly like this. 303 00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:51,400 It would be really confusing because because most people, 304 00:17:51,440 --> 00:17:56,040 most of the people were in every single person, whether you were 305 00:17:56,040 --> 00:17:58,880 in the like the thing I was talking about Peter with the 306 00:17:59,120 --> 00:18:03,360 your version of the world, you would think you knew better than 307 00:18:03,360 --> 00:18:04,920 everybody else. And those other people were 308 00:18:04,920 --> 00:18:11,280 crazy. And I and and so so it. 309 00:18:11,680 --> 00:18:15,040 Again, the change is not Bitcoin, the change is US. 310 00:18:15,360 --> 00:18:17,880 Yeah. Yeah, I agree. 311 00:18:17,880 --> 00:18:21,480 I mean, I, I'm seeing these comments on X every day. 312 00:18:21,560 --> 00:18:25,560 You don't see them anymore. But yes, from a lot of other 313 00:18:25,560 --> 00:18:28,480 people's point of view, you know, we, we are obviously the 314 00:18:28,480 --> 00:18:31,960 crazy ones and part of the Ponzi and all these things, right? 315 00:18:31,960 --> 00:18:34,560 This is how they judge it. And I think we, we've talked 316 00:18:34,560 --> 00:18:38,320 about this extensively. So I, I, I want to thank you for 317 00:18:38,320 --> 00:18:41,160 the reflection. I will, I will think about it, 318 00:18:41,160 --> 00:18:44,320 but I think it's interesting to kind of tie it back and also 319 00:18:44,320 --> 00:18:45,840 want to double click on a thread. 320 00:18:47,040 --> 00:18:51,000 It's Bitcoin is very big. I, I would say, right, this is 321 00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:53,240 kind of what I take from, from this back and forth. 322 00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:56,560 It's like it, it is, it is so paradigm shifting. 323 00:18:56,560 --> 00:19:00,360 There's also something we've talked about before and it, it, 324 00:19:00,360 --> 00:19:04,560 it is my individual experience is different from yours and your 325 00:19:04,560 --> 00:19:07,840 actions are different from mine and and so on and so on and, and 326 00:19:07,840 --> 00:19:11,440 all these other people, right. But there is a, there's a, 327 00:19:11,440 --> 00:19:14,120 there's a North Star. We're moving towards something 328 00:19:14,120 --> 00:19:18,480 and everyone is at a different level of action, interest and 329 00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:20,920 and knowledge, I would say. But it's more about the the 330 00:19:20,920 --> 00:19:23,920 moving, I would say, right. And yeah. 331 00:19:25,320 --> 00:19:27,920 Because of the consensus mechanism and what this looks 332 00:19:27,920 --> 00:19:30,200 like, there's a North Star for you. 333 00:19:30,800 --> 00:19:33,600 And that North star might be different for somebody else 334 00:19:33,840 --> 00:19:36,320 who's trying to create an empire inside. 335 00:19:36,320 --> 00:19:38,760 Like let's just say if you wanted to create a new financial 336 00:19:38,760 --> 00:19:41,840 system that you were the king of the financial system and it was 337 00:19:41,840 --> 00:19:45,600 still a broken financial system. You might see Bitcoin as a store 338 00:19:45,600 --> 00:19:47,040 of value. And I'm going to accept, I'm 339 00:19:47,040 --> 00:19:50,040 going to collect as much as possible and I'm going to keep 340 00:19:50,040 --> 00:19:54,000 this exact same rails of a broken monetary system to based 341 00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:57,560 on extraction. And if you were talking like 342 00:19:57,560 --> 00:20:02,600 that, you would polarize an audience, completely polarize an 343 00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:04,360 audience. You could say you're both 344 00:20:04,360 --> 00:20:08,680 Bitcoiners and the people that that looked from outside to 345 00:20:08,680 --> 00:20:12,600 Bitcoiners, they would wonder what the hell is of these crazy 346 00:20:12,600 --> 00:20:13,880 fights. Right. 347 00:20:14,560 --> 00:20:18,160 Because they were looking at it from two different frameworks, 1 348 00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:22,240 is as an asset like you just described it and 1 is a protocol 349 00:20:22,240 --> 00:20:25,520 that changes the world And both those assets and both of those 350 00:20:25,520 --> 00:20:29,560 frameworks produced completely different forward views. 351 00:20:30,320 --> 00:20:36,360 And so I don't, again, I don't judge anybody by their actions 352 00:20:36,360 --> 00:20:41,440 and whatever things, I also expect that if we've never lived 353 00:20:41,440 --> 00:20:45,560 in a global free market, then we would have to be then we also 354 00:20:45,560 --> 00:20:50,040 have to accept that we are part of the problem through getting 355 00:20:50,040 --> 00:20:53,240 Co opted, right? And most people would get Co 356 00:20:53,240 --> 00:20:57,840 opted because because they, because they'll tell them sums 357 00:20:57,840 --> 00:21:00,040 of story. I need to just, I need to do 358 00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:04,400 enough for my family, right? And I'll take the short term win 359 00:21:05,120 --> 00:21:07,880 to get Co opted. The the financial system 360 00:21:07,880 --> 00:21:12,040 wouldn't look like it does if that wasn't true. 361 00:21:12,560 --> 00:21:14,760 We wouldn't go into these endless wars. 362 00:21:14,760 --> 00:21:16,680 We wouldn't go into all this. We wouldn't. 363 00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:20,800 We wouldn't see Jeffrey Epstein and all of the all of what that 364 00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:25,480 means and then still operate in that same money thinking that we 365 00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:31,200 could have a different result. But we do, meaning that all of 366 00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:35,440 that power that's accruing more and more from our actions inside 367 00:21:35,440 --> 00:21:38,960 that system that centralized more and more that we keep on 368 00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:41,120 telling ourselves, it's not us, it's them. 369 00:21:42,120 --> 00:21:45,680 There's always an external validator to say it can't be us, 370 00:21:46,160 --> 00:21:50,960 but it is US. And so, so that's why this is 371 00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:54,720 such a, This is why this is such a deep conversation and 372 00:21:54,760 --> 00:21:57,320 therefore has to be a deep conversation. 373 00:21:57,600 --> 00:22:02,000 If it's the first time in, in, in history, we could, we could 374 00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:06,520 actually have a protocol that that essentially enshrined rules 375 00:22:06,560 --> 00:22:10,560 of the best of us into something for the best for us that 376 00:22:10,560 --> 00:22:13,480 couldn't be cheated. But you would have to expect the 377 00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:18,280 entire path along that way it it will try to be cheated. 378 00:22:18,560 --> 00:22:22,080 And many people that are saying today that they're bitcoiners 379 00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:27,640 won't make the journey. And I think this is exactly why 380 00:22:27,640 --> 00:22:30,080 I just said, you know, This is why Bitcoin is so big. 381 00:22:30,280 --> 00:22:32,400 It's so big because it goes so deep, right? 382 00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:35,360 I mean, I, I just saw a picture of Howard Lutnick with Jeffrey 383 00:22:35,360 --> 00:22:40,200 Epstein on his island, right? And Lutnick loves Bitcoin and 384 00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:43,720 therefore other people like Lutnick or, or whatever, right? 385 00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:47,040 And I think this is what you're partially also alluding to with 386 00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:51,120 what you're saying, right? This is why this is so difficult 387 00:22:51,120 --> 00:22:54,520 and so big and, and something I wanted to zoom in on this. 388 00:22:54,680 --> 00:22:58,240 You know, I think you and I fully agree Bitcoin is a is a 389 00:22:58,240 --> 00:23:01,640 parallel system that embodies certain characteristics, right, 390 00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:04,800 like, like the force transparency, for example, hard 391 00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:08,960 cap supplies, you know that are totally opposite of Fiat money 392 00:23:09,240 --> 00:23:11,720 right And and, and we think that is a good thing. 393 00:23:11,720 --> 00:23:16,840 It serves IT services the the obvious and and and and very 394 00:23:16,840 --> 00:23:20,440 fundamental of of flaws of of Fiat money right. 395 00:23:20,760 --> 00:23:24,240 As long as Bitcoin stays decentralized as and and secure, 396 00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:27,680 as you say, right, as long as it stays like that, it will just 397 00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:30,480 keep on chugging along. We'll be doing what it's doing 398 00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:33,880 right and therefore it will show its characteristics as this 399 00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:37,080 mirror. You can call it the light first, 400 00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:40,400 the dark or whatever right and that is why more and more people 401 00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:41,760 will make the individual decision. 402 00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:48,000 OK, this is a a better money, but wouldn't you agree that that 403 00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:53,640 no government, you know, would would ever give up control the 404 00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:56,440 control they have now over issuing a currency, right, Like 405 00:23:56,440 --> 00:23:59,040 however that helps them. So in the US, you can kind of 406 00:23:59,040 --> 00:24:03,080 see these did this, this this this market of free market of 407 00:24:03,080 --> 00:24:06,400 money, you know, taking taking shape. 408 00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:08,720 Like I said, you're going to have Walmart coin and whatever 409 00:24:09,040 --> 00:24:12,400 coin and all these coins have to buy U.S. 410 00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:14,440 Treasury. So even though they let the 411 00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:18,560 currency kind of free, perhaps it all ties back to the debt of 412 00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:21,480 the country, which they cannot really magically make make 413 00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:23,920 disappear. Maybe they inflated away into 414 00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:26,440 Bitcoin, whatever. But I think what you're now 415 00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:32,000 saying is we shouldn't be be really sure if that is a a good 416 00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:34,760 thing, right? That is how they might see. 417 00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:38,000 It's a terrible. View using bit for their goals. 418 00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:41,840 So, so of course it's going to happen because because it 419 00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:45,880 extends their goals, it extend sends a reign of monopoly power. 420 00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:50,720 Of course it's going to happen and it's not a good thing for 421 00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:53,240 the decent because if it happened and you didn't do the 422 00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:56,880 counter to be able to make it a protocol spend in in private, 423 00:24:57,640 --> 00:25:01,800 then then it would centralized and Bitcoin would break. 424 00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:06,960 And when that coin, when that inevitable chain split comes, 425 00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:12,040 then then you you'd likely be on the wrong side of that that 426 00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:14,920 because because of that, now that's not going to happen. 427 00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:20,000 It's going to be tried. It's going to be, it's going to 428 00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:23,320 feel so chaotic because most of the energy of the world is 429 00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:25,360 there. And most of those people that 430 00:25:25,360 --> 00:25:29,840 are thinking in Bitcoin in the piece of paper will side with 431 00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:32,280 the piece of paper because they're looking at a store of 432 00:25:32,360 --> 00:25:34,400 they're not looking at a store of value in Bitcoin. 433 00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:36,960 They're looking at store of value against a piece of paper. 434 00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:39,400 Yes. And you can see. 435 00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:44,840 You can see it is a SO right now the, the hands in the air and 436 00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:47,600 everything else about the price and everything else, you have a 437 00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:50,200 network expansion that is exploding. 438 00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:53,680 I was in, I was in a network expansion that that was 439 00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:56,680 exploding in the early Internet. I built, built a company there 440 00:25:57,040 --> 00:26:01,640 and in 1999 to 2000 everything collapsed. 441 00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:04,680 Amazon, I think went from 128 down to $3. 442 00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:08,760 Everything collapsed. We, our company just barely 443 00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:11,520 survived through this. But when you looked at the 444 00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:14,640 Internet and they and the traffic and the people building 445 00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:17,400 things and what was happening, it was like straight up to the 446 00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:19,800 to the right. And then you had a pricing event 447 00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:22,440 that collapsed and everybody got flushed out. 448 00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:26,280 Nothing changed. No, nothing changed. 449 00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:30,560 You had a, you had a protocol network and a network effect 450 00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:35,000 that was exploding and nothing changed. 451 00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:39,280 And today you have the exact same thing in Bitcoin, the 452 00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:41,080 price, the price. And because they're all 453 00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:44,960 measuring it from a piece of paper, that is the, that is the 454 00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:47,440 thing that is giving the centralized control more 455 00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:52,960 structure, more and more power. So, so, so, so obviously that's 456 00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:56,040 a really hard concept to, for people to understand. 457 00:26:56,480 --> 00:27:00,400 It feels really easy to me because I've been saying it for 458 00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:04,560 so long, but when I watch people make decisions on this network, 459 00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:08,480 they're constantly making decisions from trying to compare 460 00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:11,920 the old to the new. And like you said, they're 180, 461 00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:14,880 they're totally different. The, the operating principles of 462 00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:17,240 everything change everything. So you have to start from the 463 00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:21,040 new and what that hoses if it stays decentralized and secure. 464 00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:25,360 And then you have to, then you have to say, what are the risks? 465 00:27:25,360 --> 00:27:29,600 Because if everybody's in this other system and it gains its 466 00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:32,560 power from everybody. Yes. 467 00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:35,920 Then you have to think about what the risk through that lens 468 00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:38,960 look like on this new, new protocol. 469 00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:40,920 And then you have to ask an honest question. 470 00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:43,160 Can it resolve? Can it stay decentralized and 471 00:27:43,160 --> 00:27:49,040 secure against those risks and, and, and come to a conclusion? 472 00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:53,360 Why or why not? All right, I'm, I'm going to 473 00:27:53,360 --> 00:27:57,440 stay on this threat because one of the things I, I wrote down 474 00:27:57,440 --> 00:28:01,920 was something you, you just mentioned, you know, this, this, 475 00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:05,920 there's a threat I think some people see, and I think you just 476 00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:09,680 alluded to it too, right? That you could see a, a change, 477 00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:14,120 split a fork by institutions. You know, in, in the beginning 478 00:28:14,120 --> 00:28:18,840 of the Black Rock ETF, there was this legal disclaimer that, you 479 00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:23,120 know, went kind of viral, which I think it is just a legal 480 00:28:23,120 --> 00:28:25,000 disclaimer. But on the other side, it also 481 00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:27,000 opens up what you just talked about, right? 482 00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:31,000 They, they, I think it said something like in the event of a 483 00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:33,840 chain split, we decide which one to go with. 484 00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:37,080 And that is what, you know, the I bit thing is, you know, the 485 00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:43,040 ETF is going to do they have a certain leverage because they 486 00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:50,640 can choose theirs over the the Bitcoin one, right by by dumping 487 00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:53,200 the old and and and switching it for the new, etcetera. 488 00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:57,760 So do you view this as a legitimate threat? 489 00:28:57,760 --> 00:29:01,240 Is this going to happen or is just this just something that 490 00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:03,400 also exists? So. 491 00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:08,040 Like how do you judge it? And This is why I'm trying to 492 00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:10,000 get people to claim their own agency. 493 00:29:10,520 --> 00:29:13,880 This is this is really what I'm trying to do in virtually every 494 00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:16,880 podcast as people understand it more, right? 495 00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:18,920 I'm trying to get them to claim their own agency. 496 00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:21,880 And if you're pricing it from a piece of paper, and if you're 497 00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:24,320 holding it on one of those exchanges, you haven't claimed 498 00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:27,960 your own agency. You're still inside the other 499 00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:30,960 system. And you're probably fear and 500 00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:32,560 you're probably talking about the fear. 501 00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:34,600 What about this? What about this all day long? 502 00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:38,120 Well, you're giving that a amplifying the, the ability for 503 00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:42,320 it to create that fear. That system lives on your fear. 504 00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:46,760 It lives on the next chaotic event to be able to create the 505 00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:50,120 fear, to be able to create the control system that you that you 506 00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:52,360 live in. You don't know it because you're 507 00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:57,120 measuring it from from that. From my European friends that 508 00:29:57,120 --> 00:29:59,920 want to buy Bitcoin with ease, check out Relay. 509 00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:02,840 I've been a long time fan and happy to partner up with what I 510 00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:05,960 think is the best Bitcoin only platform for Europeans. 511 00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:09,680 They offer a super simple beginner friendly app with no 512 00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:13,960 distractions and no shit coins. You can do a quick one time 513 00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:17,240 smash, buy or set up automatic purchases when you're stacking 514 00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:19,240 regularly. And here's the thing that 515 00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:22,760 matters most. Relay is 100% self custody. 516 00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:26,480 Every set you hold is yours, your keys, your coins. 517 00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:29,160 If you want to get started, download the app file in my link 518 00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:33,160 below or in the description and use code Brum, that's BR AM at 519 00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:35,360 checkout to get 10% of your fees. 520 00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:37,840 A huge shout out to relay for sponsoring the show. 521 00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:40,080 Now let's continue. I I think you are the perfect 522 00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:42,560 person to to unpack further again. 523 00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:45,840 Why this is so big right? Because our our whole entire 524 00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:49,640 lives is the creation of a paradigm in in this right. 525 00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:54,160 Like I have my entire life to thank for Fiat money until I got 526 00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:56,960 to Bitcoin right. I mean like that is in in the 527 00:30:56,960 --> 00:30:59,880 country that I grew up in it just it just worked, right. 528 00:30:59,880 --> 00:31:07,600 So I don't have any real urge to to figure out that the money is 529 00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:10,240 broken on that or that there are all these perverse incentives at 530 00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:12,920 the top right from my position right and. 531 00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:17,080 And and then we have to realize that because you were closer to 532 00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:21,600 the top of the monopoly than somebody in in the Democratic 533 00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:23,800 Republic of Congo, somewhere else. 534 00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:29,160 You don't realize that you extracted from them and you. 535 00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:32,800 I knew but yes but. Again and so so what's happening 536 00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:37,080 today is is there there's an honest protocol that says thou 537 00:31:37,320 --> 00:31:39,240 that shall not cheat. Yes. 538 00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:43,480 And every single person in on the planet can move to their 539 00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:46,920 energy to that protocol. The debt down is not cheat. 540 00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:49,560 And as they understand what their life looks like as they 541 00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:52,600 move more time and energy onto that protocol, that protocol 542 00:31:52,600 --> 00:31:54,560 expands. That is the network expansion. 543 00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:58,360 It's it's also the layers that are being built on top to 544 00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:02,280 provide the risk. And and the vast majority of the 545 00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:05,840 world has no idea that they can move their time and energy over 546 00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:07,400 to this. So they're stuck in this 547 00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:11,120 operating framework that you describe many bitcoiners stuck 548 00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:13,920 in that operating for and they're just measuring this 549 00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:17,520 asset through the piece of paper and getting and getting scared 550 00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:21,400 out when price and they they, they liquidate out when it falls 551 00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:24,280 because they're scared it's going to happen over and over 552 00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:29,360 and over again as we change and realize that the world is 553 00:32:29,360 --> 00:32:31,880 created from the sum of our actions. 554 00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:36,040 It doesn't, it doesn't happen to us. 555 00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:41,040 We have a say. And when you have agency NSA and 556 00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:44,360 you see a whole bunch of other people adding their agency and 557 00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:48,160 NSA to be able to create that you're not scared of any of this 558 00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:51,480 nonsense anymore. Yeah, but there will be chain 559 00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:54,120 spots. You you might you might be on 560 00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:55,560 the wrong side of that chain split. 561 00:32:56,240 --> 00:32:59,440 Yeah, many people will be right because there would be they 562 00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:03,600 would be scared of the of that and they were it just like be 563 00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:06,240 cash Lobo to zero. Yeah, it will be. 564 00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:10,400 Yes. So I, This is why I, I, I love 565 00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:16,640 this, but there's this. I think what is difficult is to 566 00:33:16,640 --> 00:33:22,360 connect the, the, the technical parts and the, the, the profound 567 00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:25,800 implication of having a open source protocol that 568 00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:28,320 conceptually no one can kill, right? 569 00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:33,000 The protocol for perfect money is out there and it can live on 570 00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:37,000 forever, even in the a dark corner of the Internet with 10 571 00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:40,240 people, right? And, and, and that is fact. 572 00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:44,680 And I think what you are saying is okay, what you need to do. 573 00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:48,280 I think that the, the jump or the translation is to okay, if, 574 00:33:48,280 --> 00:33:53,680 if you can understand what the implications are of this 575 00:33:54,760 --> 00:33:59,400 profound conceptual, technical thing, you should act on it, 576 00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:00,680 right? I, I sometimes tweet. 577 00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:02,520 It's like we're memeing it into existence. 578 00:34:02,520 --> 00:34:04,880 That's what we're doing, right? We're, we're manifesting it 579 00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:07,840 together, literally because we are putting our, our energy and, 580 00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:10,719 you know, attention actions toward it, etcetera. 581 00:34:12,040 --> 00:34:17,320 But there's this, it's a dual understanding of of you need to 582 00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:21,400 understand to a certain degree what the technological discovery 583 00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:26,199 is, but also what the moral implications are when you 584 00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:29,280 proliferate it into the world. Because if you can kind of 585 00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:34,840 visualize that destination, it gives you energy and motivation 586 00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:37,679 and an incentive to to do certain things today. 587 00:34:37,679 --> 00:34:39,960 Does that make sense? It's kind of how I, I would give 588 00:34:39,960 --> 00:34:41,159 that back to you. Yeah. 589 00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:45,760 Yeah. Well, then the knots and core I, 590 00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:50,159 I have not well, from time to time I've been in this 591 00:34:50,159 --> 00:34:53,320 discussion, but I think to an extent on, on what we're talking 592 00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:55,320 about right now. I think it's actually very good 593 00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:59,400 bridge to to touch upon that. I, I had a lot of people on X 594 00:34:59,800 --> 00:35:02,960 talking about this. You know, the question is more 595 00:35:02,960 --> 00:35:06,200 about how true this lens that you're describing. 596 00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:11,320 Can you view this, you know, the actions of of core V30, you 597 00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:15,040 know, increasing upper turn limit etcetera. 598 00:35:15,320 --> 00:35:20,080 There's a counterforce knots, you know, BIP 110 people talk 599 00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:24,200 about, you know, this Epstein thing he funded through the MIT 600 00:35:24,200 --> 00:35:26,360 Media Lab, people working on it, etcetera. 601 00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:30,720 So you know, stuff is happening. People have different opinions 602 00:35:30,720 --> 00:35:32,880 of what they should do. They have different motivations. 603 00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:37,640 I think it's very hard to really understand personal motivations 604 00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:40,680 of from my point of view as I'm following this with interest, 605 00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:43,920 but how do you think? Just through. 606 00:35:43,920 --> 00:35:46,480 This, there's different ideologies on one side and, and 607 00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:48,760 like moral implications and there is like different 608 00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:51,240 technical implications. So I, I think that's a good 609 00:35:51,240 --> 00:35:53,000 bridge to, to what we're talking about. 610 00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:59,120 OK, I'm going to start. And because these are so charged 611 00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:02,720 conversations, I'm going to, I'm going to start at a higher level 612 00:36:02,720 --> 00:36:06,480 and I'll break it down to, to, to, to this conversation because 613 00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:08,640 this is going to happen time and time again, right? 614 00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:10,320 And they're all going to be I agree, I agree. 615 00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:12,040 And they're all going to be charged. 616 00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:15,040 Yeah. And and they're going to be 617 00:36:15,040 --> 00:36:17,960 charged because to people have a different belief in their own 618 00:36:17,960 --> 00:36:20,320 way of action of what Bitcoin is, right. 619 00:36:20,600 --> 00:36:25,240 So let me start with with if you understand game theory and 620 00:36:25,240 --> 00:36:30,800 iterative game prisoners dilemma, iterative game theory 621 00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:33,560 and you understand the best rational choice or what you can 622 00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:37,120 make in that game. And then and then and all game 623 00:36:37,120 --> 00:36:40,320 theory is, is really how we act, right? 624 00:36:40,600 --> 00:36:43,520 What is what is the best interests of us and what, how do 625 00:36:43,520 --> 00:36:45,760 we act under different scenarios? 626 00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:50,280 So if you add payoff matrices to, to game theory and one 627 00:36:50,280 --> 00:36:52,960 payoff matrix, you won't get caught. 628 00:36:54,040 --> 00:36:56,560 And then another one. I'm going to keep on increasing 629 00:36:56,560 --> 00:36:58,480 the reward. I'm going to start at $10 630 00:36:58,480 --> 00:37:03,040 hundred dollars, $1000 million dollars, 10 billion dollars, 631 00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:05,440 $100 billion. I'm going to keep going higher 632 00:37:05,440 --> 00:37:09,920 and higher and higher. What you find is, is I've seen 633 00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:18,240 as low as as 2 1/2% of people will not take the money. 634 00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:24,880 But but that, by the way, what I just described shows why money's 635 00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:32,200 always been broken because 97 1/2% of people will say I won't. 636 00:37:32,200 --> 00:37:34,960 I won't, I won't. And by the way, if you watch Mr. 637 00:37:34,960 --> 00:37:38,200 Beast or if you watch, if you watch Survivor, if you these 638 00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:42,360 shows are built on that and why they're so compelling is because 639 00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:45,120 we're watching and asking ourselves, could we? 640 00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:48,840 Right. And, and what you see is the 97 641 00:37:48,840 --> 00:37:50,400 1/2% of people always take money. 642 00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:55,400 And you and and and and you. See over and over and over again 643 00:37:55,400 --> 00:37:58,920 and then the 2 1/2% and then we and then you you celebrate. 644 00:37:58,920 --> 00:38:03,120 Wow, that person was so great but they walked away with 0 and 645 00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:05,360 you forget about them right Sidestep. 646 00:38:05,360 --> 00:38:07,320 Do you know the? Percentage of people that are 647 00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:10,000 INTJ, yeah, I know it's around the same. 648 00:38:10,200 --> 00:38:11,560 Let's do it after. Yeah, I. 649 00:38:12,520 --> 00:38:15,880 Know. So, so, so which which might be 650 00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:18,680 a different version of what we're talking about, but what, 651 00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:22,880 but what the 2 1/2% of people and that this has been 652 00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:26,880 consistent throughout history. I think the because that's how 653 00:38:26,880 --> 00:38:28,160 we're wired. What they're, what they're 654 00:38:28,160 --> 00:38:33,120 saying is, is I couldn't live with myself if I did that right. 655 00:38:33,720 --> 00:38:37,160 And what most people are saying is I need to do this before 656 00:38:37,160 --> 00:38:39,800 somebody else does it to me for my family. 657 00:38:40,720 --> 00:38:42,560 They're not bad people. They're not everything. 658 00:38:42,560 --> 00:38:46,400 Else so if that's been the entire history and by the way, 659 00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:49,600 you could actually probably tie this into you might be able to 660 00:38:49,600 --> 00:38:51,720 tie this into religions. You might be able to tie in 661 00:38:51,720 --> 00:38:55,600 everything else because or, or any significant leader that was 662 00:38:55,600 --> 00:38:58,400 killed. What would it look like if you 663 00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:02,080 were the lone wolf that was that was so dangerous to the system? 664 00:39:04,160 --> 00:39:06,600 To and then. What would it look like to those 665 00:39:06,600 --> 00:39:10,880 people as we celebrated in them? The thing we couldn't hold in 666 00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:13,280 ourselves, right? What? 667 00:39:13,280 --> 00:39:15,520 Would the observer. Effect from the person who was 668 00:39:15,520 --> 00:39:18,720 standing standing out there. It would be really dangerous for 669 00:39:18,720 --> 00:39:22,960 a control system because they were above it, but they would be 670 00:39:23,240 --> 00:39:25,800 that there. It would be lonely and they 671 00:39:25,800 --> 00:39:29,160 would most likely be killed over time from the control system. 672 00:39:29,720 --> 00:39:33,640 So what Bitcoin gives us is through the consensus mechanism 673 00:39:33,640 --> 00:39:38,720 and what this is those 2 1/2% of people typically aggregate. 674 00:39:38,720 --> 00:39:43,960 They run nodes, Cypher punks, they run and, and in anonymity, 675 00:39:44,040 --> 00:39:45,560 right. And and so you don't have to 676 00:39:45,560 --> 00:39:49,080 poke your head up and everything else, but as there's thousands 677 00:39:49,080 --> 00:39:53,280 of these people. That is the backbone that. 678 00:39:53,280 --> 00:39:59,440 Protects Bitcoin and and now it gives the 97 1/2% of people who 679 00:39:59,440 --> 00:40:02,560 aren't just bad people, some probably 2 1/2 percent on the 680 00:40:02,560 --> 00:40:05,280 other might be for the 97 1/2 Purdue. 681 00:40:05,520 --> 00:40:09,280 They just don't have the just given a choice if somebody's 682 00:40:09,280 --> 00:40:11,160 going to cheat them or they're going to get cheated. 683 00:40:12,080 --> 00:40:15,920 They'll cheat somebody before they get cheated, but now they 684 00:40:15,920 --> 00:40:17,000 can. Cooperate in an. 685 00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:20,760 Honest chain and so it. Moves the entire. 686 00:40:20,760 --> 00:40:23,920 World in the direction of what we're talking about and more and 687 00:40:23,920 --> 00:40:25,520 more people can see themselves in it. 688 00:40:25,760 --> 00:40:29,320 OK. So now with with, with just with 689 00:40:29,320 --> 00:40:33,680 that as a frame. So my expectation and and 0 sum 690 00:40:33,800 --> 00:40:36,080 versus. What I got from you, the 691 00:40:36,080 --> 00:40:37,760 cooperative competitive? Yeah, exactly. 692 00:40:37,760 --> 00:40:40,120 An infinite game 0 sum. Game to an infinite game. 693 00:40:40,120 --> 00:40:42,400 Yeah, OK. And, and once you see yourself 694 00:40:42,400 --> 00:40:45,720 in the infinite game, if you truly see yourself in the 695 00:40:45,720 --> 00:40:49,520 infinite game, then you, you and you know yourself, you know 696 00:40:49,520 --> 00:40:51,760 you're never going to go to the 0 sum game. 697 00:40:51,760 --> 00:40:54,080 But each person has to ask that for themselves. 698 00:40:54,080 --> 00:40:58,840 And, and what my expectation is is 97 1/2% of people that I know 699 00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:02,040 today. So people think I'm an optimist, 700 00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:04,160 right? Or or utopian. 701 00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:08,520 I'm just looking at the. Data and, and all of these 702 00:41:08,520 --> 00:41:13,520 things and, and I know how big the challenge is, but I also 703 00:41:13,520 --> 00:41:18,120 know that if there's 2 1/2% of people that'll do this, that's a 704 00:41:18,120 --> 00:41:22,560 huge number of people that aren't going back and that'll 705 00:41:22,560 --> 00:41:24,840 swing in favor more and more people. 706 00:41:25,080 --> 00:41:27,240 So now that's kind of the highest level. 707 00:41:27,240 --> 00:41:31,640 So my expectation is most people will cheat my expectation. 708 00:41:31,640 --> 00:41:34,200 Is when they say. Don't slay your heroes or go 709 00:41:34,200 --> 00:41:37,960 spear slay your heroes is because most people will cheat 710 00:41:39,680 --> 00:41:40,800 right? That's the meme. 711 00:41:40,840 --> 00:41:44,400 That's the meme. Saying what I just said. 712 00:41:44,880 --> 00:41:48,920 So now underneath, underneath that, if you had one. 713 00:41:48,920 --> 00:41:53,800 Instance. Core and you had a world that 714 00:41:53,800 --> 00:41:58,480 looked like that. You could expect that that group 715 00:41:58,480 --> 00:42:02,960 of people to be whether they knew they were being Co opted or 716 00:42:02,960 --> 00:42:05,240 they're whether they're being Co opted, you could expect 717 00:42:05,240 --> 00:42:06,800 overtime. And I'm not saying they were or 718 00:42:06,800 --> 00:42:10,480 weren't right. I'm saying you're he would have 719 00:42:10,480 --> 00:42:14,120 to have an expectation if the entire political establishment 720 00:42:14,120 --> 00:42:18,320 looks like this and. And and and. 721 00:42:18,440 --> 00:42:22,000 And through money and power and everything else, and you had a 722 00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:25,000 group of people with power, a narrow group of people with 723 00:42:25,000 --> 00:42:28,080 power. And that that narrow group of 724 00:42:28,080 --> 00:42:32,560 people was a risk to this entire power structure. 725 00:42:33,360 --> 00:42:39,200 You would have to expect that those people would be, would be 726 00:42:39,200 --> 00:42:41,320 attacked. And when I say attacked, I 727 00:42:41,320 --> 00:42:44,760 wouldn't, you wouldn't. Do it in a way. 728 00:42:44,760 --> 00:42:46,840 That they would know they were being attacked. 729 00:42:47,080 --> 00:42:48,720 You would do it in a friendly way. 730 00:42:48,960 --> 00:42:52,200 You would do it in these things are needed and everything else. 731 00:42:52,960 --> 00:42:56,800 And so, but the consensus mechanism and, and I'm sorry, 732 00:42:56,840 --> 00:42:59,680 I'm going in kind of layers because it's such a deep topic 733 00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:06,480 and, but, but so the consensus mechanism and what it means to 734 00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:11,160 me is I get to see everything we've. 735 00:43:11,160 --> 00:43:14,040 Always lived in a world. Where we lived in the small box, 736 00:43:15,080 --> 00:43:16,840 the. The crazies were either. 737 00:43:16,840 --> 00:43:21,720 Killed or or made to look crazy and we couldn't see their ideas 738 00:43:21,720 --> 00:43:26,880 even if they were genius because we lived in the small box and 739 00:43:26,880 --> 00:43:31,000 the consensus mechanism breaks that box wide open that we all 740 00:43:31,000 --> 00:43:35,520 get to the see see the entire thing we get to see the the the 741 00:43:35,640 --> 00:43:40,720 person who could be a genius over here right and and 99% of 742 00:43:40,720 --> 00:43:43,480 the time they're genius and 1% of the time they do something 743 00:43:43,480 --> 00:43:48,080 that does massive harm and we. Can see the person over here 744 00:43:48,080 --> 00:43:49,800 that. Is exactly the same the same, 745 00:43:50,360 --> 00:43:53,160 right? And we get to decide what 746 00:43:53,160 --> 00:43:57,800 Bitcoin means for us. And so given all. 747 00:43:57,800 --> 00:44:03,160 Of this and what I would expect the world to look like when and 748 00:44:03,240 --> 00:44:07,520 and and I want to say I really like a bunch of people in in in 749 00:44:07,520 --> 00:44:11,200 core. I like Jerry Akimo I I I like a 750 00:44:11,200 --> 00:44:17,480 bunch of the people on on Odell. Many of the people and as I say 751 00:44:17,480 --> 00:44:20,800 these names, I know I'm going to get attacked right from the 752 00:44:20,800 --> 00:44:24,720 other side. And then I love other people 753 00:44:24,800 --> 00:44:32,040 mechanic Luke, because I'm looking at the idea, not the 754 00:44:32,040 --> 00:44:36,160 person constantly I and and the debate. 755 00:44:36,160 --> 00:44:39,200 And as people fight more and more, I want to dig in more. 756 00:44:39,200 --> 00:44:41,720 And at any time there's an ad hominem attack. 757 00:44:42,760 --> 00:44:46,360 I I think that's my clue to look deeper because most people can't 758 00:44:46,440 --> 00:44:50,360 look deeper, right, because they're so caught up in their in 759 00:44:50,360 --> 00:44:52,800 Group bias out group bias. I'm better. 760 00:44:52,920 --> 00:44:56,320 That person's bad that they can't see the genius on both 761 00:44:56,320 --> 00:45:00,440 sides. And so so how do I do this? 762 00:45:01,160 --> 00:45:07,160 I run knots today. I run knots because because I 763 00:45:07,160 --> 00:45:11,560 thought what core did on on on version 30 was dangerous. 764 00:45:12,040 --> 00:45:15,960 And when I looked at the, when I, when I looked at that and, 765 00:45:15,960 --> 00:45:20,520 and, and it was and I, and, and I suspect that as, as you're a 766 00:45:20,520 --> 00:45:25,040 group of people and people are attacking you and saying this is 767 00:45:25,040 --> 00:45:28,720 dangerous, then it's easier to create an echo Chamber of other 768 00:45:28,720 --> 00:45:32,040 people that are your friends and everything else to stop 769 00:45:32,040 --> 00:45:34,520 listening. I'm not saying it would be a 770 00:45:34,520 --> 00:45:37,920 really hard job to, to do this because you're constantly under 771 00:45:37,920 --> 00:45:44,040 attack, but you have and, and the human condition is you want 772 00:45:44,040 --> 00:45:46,640 to talk to people who like you instead of people that, who 773 00:45:46,640 --> 00:45:50,120 don't like you. And so that would create this, 774 00:45:51,080 --> 00:45:56,640 this essentially narrow group think that expelled people like 775 00:45:56,640 --> 00:45:58,920 Luke. And when I look at some of the 776 00:45:58,920 --> 00:46:03,240 stuff that Luke Dasher has done, he's brilliant, right when I 777 00:46:03,240 --> 00:46:05,360 look at some of the stuff that he's done. 778 00:46:06,840 --> 00:46:10,000 And so I made a decision for myself to run knots. 779 00:46:12,080 --> 00:46:16,200 Now the risk of. Knots is is there enough 780 00:46:16,200 --> 00:46:19,080 maintainers? Does it, does it grow? 781 00:46:19,080 --> 00:46:23,840 Does it and and then what if there's just a new a new version 782 00:46:23,840 --> 00:46:27,080 of a of a risk that that? Then. 783 00:46:27,600 --> 00:46:30,520 That then consolidated power and under under a control. 784 00:46:30,520 --> 00:46:33,080 So that is very real risk that you have to understand as well. 785 00:46:33,080 --> 00:46:37,080 But knowing all of these things, I made a choice to to run knots. 786 00:46:37,440 --> 00:46:43,920 I have not made a choice yet to run pip 1-10, but I understand 787 00:46:43,920 --> 00:46:47,480 the the both sides of the issue and I part of the reason I 788 00:46:47,480 --> 00:46:51,080 haven't made a choice yet and everybody wants me to is I 789 00:46:51,080 --> 00:46:53,000 understand the risks to that choice too. 790 00:46:53,000 --> 00:46:56,320 And when I do and, and I don't want me people to do things 791 00:46:56,320 --> 00:47:01,520 because I did them. I want them to do them because 792 00:47:01,520 --> 00:47:05,920 they've done the work themselves to decide what what that looks 793 00:47:05,920 --> 00:47:08,480 like. But when I when I when I look at 794 00:47:08,480 --> 00:47:11,480 all of these people and the fights on either side, then I 795 00:47:11,480 --> 00:47:17,200 get a it actually helps me get. Smarter on these On these. 796 00:47:17,200 --> 00:47:19,080 Issues. So I'm thankful for all of them. 797 00:47:19,560 --> 00:47:22,680 Yeah, I think a. Few thoughts here. 798 00:47:22,680 --> 00:47:26,400 This there's a few things I always say, you know, the fact 799 00:47:26,400 --> 00:47:31,680 that that people were paying attention to, you know, people 800 00:47:31,680 --> 00:47:36,200 like Epstein and surroundings in in in 2011 to Bitcoin, right? 801 00:47:36,200 --> 00:47:40,320 Or just in in general. You know, Gavin Andreessen went 802 00:47:40,320 --> 00:47:45,160 to this CIA presentation that he later wrote about on the forums 803 00:47:45,160 --> 00:47:47,880 where he said, like, they all thought I was a weird guy or, or 804 00:47:47,880 --> 00:47:51,600 whatever, right? Like the, the fact that people 805 00:47:51,600 --> 00:47:54,400 in that in those realms were already paying attention to 806 00:47:54,400 --> 00:47:57,240 Bitcoin for me is actually a very positive thing, right? 807 00:47:57,240 --> 00:47:59,840 I mean, how, how many random ideas are released on the 808 00:47:59,840 --> 00:48:04,040 Internet every day, let alone on obscure cyberpunk Internet 809 00:48:04,040 --> 00:48:07,720 forums, right? Why would you even pay attention 810 00:48:07,720 --> 00:48:10,680 to that? And it's still alive and growing 811 00:48:11,440 --> 00:48:14,760 today, right? So for me that is, that is a, a, 812 00:48:14,760 --> 00:48:18,920 a signal that this is something special and, and something big, 813 00:48:20,840 --> 00:48:25,080 something that that takes a long time and that everyone, like you 814 00:48:25,080 --> 00:48:30,800 said, will look at the profoundness importance of it 815 00:48:30,800 --> 00:48:34,480 in, in their own way. And they will fight or, or 816 00:48:34,480 --> 00:48:38,000 contribute to that in again, in their, in their own way. 817 00:48:38,440 --> 00:48:44,360 But the beauty in the technical sense is that, well, I would 818 00:48:44,360 --> 00:48:47,360 say, well, there's a beauty and there's a, a, a, a challenge 819 00:48:47,360 --> 00:48:51,520 because it is so absolutely transparent, right? 820 00:48:52,240 --> 00:48:54,520 You can verify everything for yourself. 821 00:48:54,560 --> 00:48:58,400 And therefore I would say you should to make a. 822 00:48:58,400 --> 00:49:01,800 Decision as to how. You adopt Bitcoin and goes back, 823 00:49:01,800 --> 00:49:04,200 I think to the beginning of this conversation as as as well, 824 00:49:04,200 --> 00:49:06,920 right? The the fun or interesting thing 825 00:49:06,920 --> 00:49:09,440 is that with Fiat money, you never had a clue, right? 826 00:49:09,480 --> 00:49:12,840 You just, you just, you know, used the card and it beeped and 827 00:49:12,840 --> 00:49:15,160 you got something from a store and you were like, yeah, 828 00:49:15,160 --> 00:49:17,480 whatever this is, apparently This is Money, right? 829 00:49:17,480 --> 00:49:19,440 And when you were younger, it was with coins and bills. 830 00:49:19,440 --> 00:49:24,560 And so you never questioned it, although it makes you a subject 831 00:49:24,560 --> 00:49:27,520 in, in a, in a system, right, Not, not an actor. 832 00:49:27,520 --> 00:49:31,720 So your ignorance is basically used to abuse you steal your 833 00:49:31,720 --> 00:49:33,160 time and energy and all these things. 834 00:49:33,480 --> 00:49:36,440 But again, because Bitcoin is this mirror and it is the total 835 00:49:36,440 --> 00:49:41,720 transparent opposite, all this agency is put on you. 836 00:49:41,920 --> 00:49:44,800 I, I would say, right. So you have to do the work. 837 00:49:45,120 --> 00:49:48,640 And therefore, I think we also see all these struggles because 838 00:49:48,640 --> 00:49:53,320 different kinds of people with different kinds of no morals or, 839 00:49:53,320 --> 00:49:57,160 or understanding or IQ whatever, it doesn't really matter. 840 00:49:57,320 --> 00:50:01,000 They all get confronted with that forced transparency and 841 00:50:01,000 --> 00:50:04,480 this, this fighting this, this tension basically. 842 00:50:04,720 --> 00:50:06,160 And and think about some of the things. 843 00:50:06,160 --> 00:50:10,640 That that a bunch of developers might or might not know because 844 00:50:10,640 --> 00:50:12,680 they're good at code, they and, but they might not. 845 00:50:13,000 --> 00:50:17,840 They might be making the same intuitive mistake by measuring a 846 00:50:18,240 --> 00:50:21,480 Fiat system into a Bitcoin system that most people make 847 00:50:21,800 --> 00:50:23,080 right. A free market operates 848 00:50:23,080 --> 00:50:26,000 different. So, so so when I watched the 849 00:50:26,000 --> 00:50:32,000 debate on on some of the stuff that the why, why they why some 850 00:50:32,000 --> 00:50:34,520 of this stuff happened to protect miners fees. 851 00:50:36,880 --> 00:50:42,040 I'm going this is insane, right? The the mining mining doesn't 852 00:50:42,040 --> 00:50:45,680 need fees the the block. Reward if. 853 00:50:45,680 --> 00:50:52,760 Measured in Bitcoin right, it's a isn't is enough to 2140 and 854 00:50:52,760 --> 00:50:56,440 and what you're saying is is right right now the through 855 00:50:56,440 --> 00:50:58,200 lightning pediment and other stuff. 856 00:50:58,440 --> 00:51:02,360 It's removing that capacity to be able to to so you have an 857 00:51:02,360 --> 00:51:06,880 anchor at the bottom it and why I say this is if you tried to 858 00:51:06,880 --> 00:51:10,080 drive fees and and mining, if you were a bad actor trying to 859 00:51:10,080 --> 00:51:14,360 drive fees, Andre Standard. So what would you be doing? 860 00:51:15,080 --> 00:51:20,160 You'd be locking in a high cost data center around high cost 861 00:51:20,160 --> 00:51:24,600 energy and you'd get wiped out faster by the free market. 862 00:51:25,920 --> 00:51:27,600 Yeah. Because because the. 863 00:51:27,720 --> 00:51:32,640 The mining always is always driving to to to the new 864 00:51:32,640 --> 00:51:36,640 equipment, new compute and the lowest cost energy. 865 00:51:37,160 --> 00:51:41,000 So if you're if you're trying to extend your life on fees to try 866 00:51:41,000 --> 00:51:44,960 to extend your life on a data center, you're driving yourself 867 00:51:44,960 --> 00:51:47,560 off a Cliff faster because you're not driving at the free 868 00:51:47,560 --> 00:51:50,280 market to the edge of edge of energy. 869 00:51:50,680 --> 00:51:52,160 And so that's what you're seeing right now. 870 00:51:52,160 --> 00:51:54,320 And you're seeing this like I'm on the board, of course, 871 00:51:54,320 --> 00:51:58,400 scientific and Bitcoin mining it and they have some of the lowest 872 00:51:58,400 --> 00:52:01,240 cost energy in the US. Bitcoin mining doesn't work 873 00:52:01,240 --> 00:52:05,480 anymore, right, because because now at the hash rate, it's 874 00:52:05,480 --> 00:52:08,080 unprofitable. And so so when when, when I 875 00:52:08,080 --> 00:52:12,440 watched the debate around what we should do to protect miners 876 00:52:13,720 --> 00:52:15,480 or the. Centralization of miners. 877 00:52:15,480 --> 00:52:16,640 And that's going to be a problem. 878 00:52:17,160 --> 00:52:20,240 It's because they don't understand how markets work, and 879 00:52:20,240 --> 00:52:23,600 the centralization of market mining cannot happen in this 880 00:52:23,600 --> 00:52:27,360 industry. Because it operates on the. 881 00:52:27,360 --> 00:52:30,920 Free market principle. It's interesting that. 882 00:52:32,240 --> 00:52:38,160 The The thing that Bitcoin philosophically promises to 883 00:52:38,320 --> 00:52:43,160 accelerate their fuel, right? This free market is also the 884 00:52:43,160 --> 00:52:46,880 thing that is happening in the journey to to getting there, 885 00:52:46,880 --> 00:52:49,520 right? Like like bit the proof of work. 886 00:52:50,400 --> 00:52:53,640 I wonder what you think I want to check like proof of work is 887 00:52:53,640 --> 00:52:56,200 true on every fractal of bit, right? 888 00:52:56,200 --> 00:53:00,120 Like from the technical to the philosophical to to the, the, 889 00:53:00,120 --> 00:53:02,680 the whole personal, the spiritual parts, whatever, 890 00:53:02,680 --> 00:53:05,360 right? And so I think the interesting 891 00:53:05,360 --> 00:53:08,840 thing is that if you want to participate in this free market 892 00:53:08,840 --> 00:53:12,000 of this idea in general, whether philosophically or you know, I'm 893 00:53:12,000 --> 00:53:14,360 doing a cost, other people, mine, whatever. 894 00:53:15,640 --> 00:53:17,280 Yeah, you got you got to. Do it right like. 895 00:53:17,280 --> 00:53:18,920 It's it's walk your talk, basically. 896 00:53:18,920 --> 00:53:22,240 So if you want to do a change split because you don't agree 897 00:53:22,240 --> 00:53:27,400 with XYZ, you should do it because you can and you should. 898 00:53:27,720 --> 00:53:31,280 And you're going to figure out if enough people care and if 899 00:53:31,280 --> 00:53:33,440 not, they're not. And if they do they, they do 900 00:53:33,440 --> 00:53:36,920 right? And I, I, I really like that we 901 00:53:36,920 --> 00:53:38,560 went here because this is the essence now. 902 00:53:38,560 --> 00:53:40,080 This is the essence. Like if you want to do it, you 903 00:53:40,080 --> 00:53:42,520 should like you. It's not only talk, you have to 904 00:53:42,520 --> 00:53:44,600 do it. It's what is Bitcoin to you? 905 00:53:45,320 --> 00:53:48,720 Right. And why I aligned with with 906 00:53:48,720 --> 00:53:52,240 knots is Bitcoin is a protocol to me and it's, and it's coming 907 00:53:52,240 --> 00:53:55,000 in layers and it's money and everything else and it's not a 908 00:53:55,000 --> 00:53:58,240 database. And so I so I line more with 909 00:53:58,240 --> 00:54:00,520 that side. Now I understand why other 910 00:54:00,520 --> 00:54:03,200 people would want this. I understand why in entire 911 00:54:03,200 --> 00:54:06,760 construct of the way the world works today would want the 912 00:54:06,760 --> 00:54:10,840 existing things to be to be be different and Bitcoin is always 913 00:54:10,840 --> 00:54:14,080 resolved against us. Now, whether this works for 914 00:54:14,080 --> 00:54:16,600 right now on Bitcoin 10 or or not. 915 00:54:16,600 --> 00:54:18,440 And I don't want to change, but, right. 916 00:54:18,680 --> 00:54:23,040 And so, so, but, but, but at some point I'm going to be 917 00:54:23,040 --> 00:54:26,920 called to which one which, what Bitcoin, what is Bitcoin for me, 918 00:54:27,320 --> 00:54:30,080 right? And I'm going to, and, and 919 00:54:30,680 --> 00:54:34,880 whether that's now whether when it, when it gets centralized 920 00:54:34,880 --> 00:54:37,720 more and centralized exchanges and comes after Bitcoin. 921 00:54:37,720 --> 00:54:40,360 But at some point these things are going to happen and we're 922 00:54:40,360 --> 00:54:43,200 all going to be called on to make the decision on what that, 923 00:54:43,640 --> 00:54:45,760 what that looks like to us, right? 924 00:54:46,120 --> 00:54:54,440 And there's probably and, and because I think because this is 925 00:54:54,440 --> 00:54:59,400 such a complicated conversation and because of the transition 926 00:54:59,400 --> 00:55:01,720 and because we're measure and most people are measuring from 927 00:55:01,720 --> 00:55:06,480 the other system still, it's going to it's going to elicit 928 00:55:06,480 --> 00:55:10,840 these crazy responses and fighting for what people believe 929 00:55:10,840 --> 00:55:15,160 on both sides. Yeah. 930 00:55:15,160 --> 00:55:18,840 And I I I almost want to say. As as we should, if we think 931 00:55:18,840 --> 00:55:21,880 about how That's the beauty of about the consent. 932 00:55:21,880 --> 00:55:23,280 Important. We have to see it all. 933 00:55:23,640 --> 00:55:26,560 Yeah, we have to see it all. And it should be that important 934 00:55:26,560 --> 00:55:27,800 to you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 935 00:55:27,800 --> 00:55:32,880 But it it is. Not changing the technology of 936 00:55:32,880 --> 00:55:35,320 money is not an easy in the world, right? 937 00:55:35,320 --> 00:55:40,440 Is not an easy feat and also not a quick journey. 938 00:55:40,480 --> 00:55:44,720 And, and I think this is the, you know, I, I like to talk a 939 00:55:44,720 --> 00:55:47,840 lot about the, the, the, the personal journey, spiritual part 940 00:55:47,840 --> 00:55:50,280 of this. I think this is where you 941 00:55:50,280 --> 00:55:54,080 eventually want to get that that you are. 942 00:55:56,320 --> 00:55:58,040 It is why some people say Bitcoin is like. 943 00:55:58,040 --> 00:56:00,280 A religion, right? But you give your, you, you give 944 00:56:00,280 --> 00:56:03,600 your attention and your energy to this thing in the in the 945 00:56:03,600 --> 00:56:08,520 future, which maybe will only happen after you die, right? 946 00:56:08,520 --> 00:56:12,480 Like and then take a very long time and and then and that's 947 00:56:12,480 --> 00:56:15,360 why. You just said before we started, 948 00:56:15,680 --> 00:56:18,080 you still get triggered sometimes of everything else. 949 00:56:18,400 --> 00:56:21,520 I just realized that this is a personal journey from every 950 00:56:21,520 --> 00:56:25,000 single person going through this, all of the people going 951 00:56:25,000 --> 00:56:28,040 through it. If this was going to continue, 952 00:56:28,040 --> 00:56:31,720 it has to look like this. And all of this misinformation 953 00:56:31,880 --> 00:56:33,840 has to look like this. And all of the different 954 00:56:33,840 --> 00:56:37,720 versions of what reality look like have to look like this. 955 00:56:38,160 --> 00:56:41,600 And I don't begrudge somebody from their what their version 956 00:56:41,600 --> 00:56:44,040 is. I can, I can completely. 957 00:56:45,000 --> 00:56:50,600 I can respect somebody immensely that has a different idea for 958 00:56:50,600 --> 00:56:54,040 for what this is and a different, different version. 959 00:56:54,040 --> 00:56:57,320 And I can still learn from them, even if I might not agree with 960 00:56:57,320 --> 00:57:00,160 them on this, on a on, on what it is to me. 961 00:57:00,880 --> 00:57:04,200 Yeah. Well, I'm happy you got that 962 00:57:04,200 --> 00:57:06,560 insight too. This is also what I think it's, 963 00:57:06,560 --> 00:57:09,760 it's a 1 by 1 conversion, right? It, it is, dude. 964 00:57:09,760 --> 00:57:13,400 Are you making the choice? And it's on on on every level, 965 00:57:14,200 --> 00:57:16,160 Yeah. Of taking on that absolute 966 00:57:16,160 --> 00:57:18,240 agency. That's why I think it it is. 967 00:57:18,240 --> 00:57:20,200 It is, you know, some people don't like it. 968 00:57:20,240 --> 00:57:22,800 I think what I say, but it's partially, partially 969 00:57:23,120 --> 00:57:27,160 enlightening to, you know, to to a degree where you really say 970 00:57:27,160 --> 00:57:32,680 like, OK, I'm really going to take control or attempt to take 971 00:57:32,680 --> 00:57:36,160 control with this technology that is given to us. 972 00:57:36,680 --> 00:57:40,480 And there's a lot of scary stuff that comes with taking control, 973 00:57:40,480 --> 00:57:43,320 right? Taking on that agency versus in, 974 00:57:43,320 --> 00:57:47,720 in a Fiat money world, just outsourcing almost everything to 975 00:57:47,720 --> 00:57:52,160 other people no better than you and, and, and on a different 976 00:57:52,160 --> 00:57:55,480 level of their own, you know, spiritual or personal journey 977 00:57:55,480 --> 00:57:58,720 in, in their lives, right. And so I think it is just again, 978 00:57:58,720 --> 00:58:01,440 this, this fractal idea of the proof of work is just so 979 00:58:01,440 --> 00:58:03,200 interesting. Like if you say yes on one 980 00:58:03,200 --> 00:58:06,200 level, you basically have to go to all these other levels and 981 00:58:06,200 --> 00:58:10,440 also say yes, but they might take different times before you 982 00:58:10,440 --> 00:58:13,840 personally get there, right? That's what, That's what's. 983 00:58:13,840 --> 00:58:16,880 Happening and it's a this is imposing this across the world 984 00:58:16,880 --> 00:58:20,960 and it's our choice whether to I understand and and when and how 985 00:58:20,960 --> 00:58:27,600 and what it looks like and you you watch I watch people even 986 00:58:27,600 --> 00:58:34,160 even with my body of work right that have seen it 100. 987 00:58:34,160 --> 00:58:38,040 Times. And still not yet or or or fight 988 00:58:38,040 --> 00:58:42,080 against me and say like the worst things about me, right? 989 00:58:42,080 --> 00:58:46,880 How stupid I am everything else. And then and then one one day 990 00:58:46,880 --> 00:58:50,160 click and they get it right and it was. 991 00:58:50,160 --> 00:58:52,840 Never about me. It was something, it was 992 00:58:52,840 --> 00:58:57,080 something it was, it wasn't. It was how they viewed the 993 00:58:57,080 --> 00:58:59,080 world. And this thing was too hard to 994 00:58:59,080 --> 00:59:03,480 be able to grab on to. And it was about them. 995 00:59:03,800 --> 00:59:06,760 And it wasn't about it wasn't about me when they yelled at me. 996 00:59:06,760 --> 00:59:08,200 It wasn't about me when they loved me. 997 00:59:08,200 --> 00:59:12,280 It was about them. And as and so watching people 998 00:59:12,280 --> 00:59:16,600 make this, this journey into this thing and, and, and the 999 00:59:16,600 --> 00:59:21,760 number of people that have why I'm so, so excited and just 1000 00:59:21,760 --> 00:59:25,080 grateful to be here right in this time in the world. 1001 00:59:25,400 --> 00:59:30,240 Is it when, when, when I know the thousands of people on the 1002 00:59:30,240 --> 00:59:33,720 front lines of this who were fighting for a better few and 1003 00:59:33,720 --> 00:59:36,160 and they're not even fighting for a better future. 1004 00:59:36,160 --> 00:59:38,640 They're they're building a better future. 1005 00:59:38,640 --> 00:59:42,520 They're in in they're literally their energy is inside this 1006 00:59:42,520 --> 00:59:44,520 thing and and more and more all the time. 1007 00:59:45,440 --> 00:59:49,360 It's so crazy hopeful that the little fights and everything 1008 00:59:49,360 --> 00:59:51,920 else that you should expect along the way, if this is going 1009 00:59:51,920 --> 00:59:56,840 to to to work, they just they just they're nothing burgers to 1010 00:59:56,840 --> 00:59:59,240 me. Yeah, I think the word. 1011 00:59:59,240 --> 01:00:01,720 Would be striving. We're striving towards 1012 01:00:01,720 --> 01:00:04,760 something, right? All right, We're actually, we're 1013 01:00:04,760 --> 01:00:07,120 actually building. It right, Yeah, it's not it's 1014 01:00:07,120 --> 01:00:12,360 not happening to us. We're Co creating it, yeah. 1015 01:00:14,280 --> 01:00:15,720 I agree, and that's also what I really. 1016 01:00:15,720 --> 01:00:17,440 Like is like what is Bitcoin to you? 1017 01:00:17,440 --> 01:00:20,000 What you said, right, like whatever Bitcoin is to you. 1018 01:00:20,000 --> 01:00:24,080 If, if, if there is a certain calling in there where you think 1019 01:00:24,080 --> 01:00:27,000 like I want to contribute, you can basically do anything, 1020 01:00:27,320 --> 01:00:28,520 right? It doesn't really, it doesn't 1021 01:00:28,520 --> 01:00:30,840 really matter what all right, too. 1022 01:00:30,840 --> 01:00:34,200 I, I know we have to wrap up. I, I still had a lot of 1023 01:00:34,200 --> 01:00:37,760 questions from everyone on X, but I think this was the, the, 1024 01:00:38,000 --> 01:00:41,120 the, the right conversation at the right time for this, because 1025 01:00:41,120 --> 01:00:46,880 I feel that a lot of people miss the bigger picture within all 1026 01:00:46,880 --> 01:00:50,000 the noise, basically, right? But, and you can extract 1027 01:00:50,000 --> 01:00:52,760 yourself from the noise. I mean, I know that that you did 1028 01:00:52,760 --> 01:00:56,280 that, but I also think there's still a lot of people that need 1029 01:00:56,280 --> 01:01:00,080 to. Hear. 1030 01:01:00,320 --> 01:01:04,400 What this bigger picture is and what it asks from them as well, 1031 01:01:04,400 --> 01:01:07,280 that that it's not an easy feat, that it's going to take a lot of 1032 01:01:07,280 --> 01:01:09,320 time, that it is the proof of work. 1033 01:01:11,240 --> 01:01:13,920 Can I just the? And and potentially the same 1034 01:01:13,920 --> 01:01:16,120 thing that happened in core and the potentially thing that 1035 01:01:16,120 --> 01:01:19,720 happens in all human beings in all societies and why we we 1036 01:01:19,720 --> 01:01:22,560 gravitate through these small groups and everything else in 1037 01:01:22,560 --> 01:01:25,600 Group out group bias you would likely. 1038 01:01:25,600 --> 01:01:28,200 Never belong to the. To the group that you thought 1039 01:01:28,200 --> 01:01:35,400 was inferior, right? Yeah, so, so, so when you when 1040 01:01:35,400 --> 01:01:39,840 you're in Group, you think you, you automatically assume that 1041 01:01:39,840 --> 01:01:42,840 group is better. You you might not come across 1042 01:01:42,840 --> 01:01:47,800 that away, but that's your natural thing to to and and it 1043 01:01:47,880 --> 01:01:52,960 and you're easily exploited and to those other people, right. 1044 01:01:52,960 --> 01:01:56,000 When I see when I see the things when the derangement on both 1045 01:01:56,000 --> 01:02:00,040 sides of the this and some of it's the right and people 1046 01:02:00,040 --> 01:02:02,680 fighting for when they can do it whatever where they want. 1047 01:02:04,000 --> 01:02:08,680 But but that that's what I see is that in Group out group bias 1048 01:02:09,160 --> 01:02:12,560 and people and and people missing the signal. 1049 01:02:13,120 --> 01:02:15,240 The people missing the signal that they can learn. 1050 01:02:15,240 --> 01:02:18,000 They can learn from their enemy. They can learn from somebody in 1051 01:02:18,000 --> 01:02:21,000 a different group. They can, they can say, they can 1052 01:02:21,000 --> 01:02:26,880 still just rationally make decisions and say, even if I 1053 01:02:26,880 --> 01:02:30,040 didn't agree with somebody, 99% of the time I might have, there 1054 01:02:30,040 --> 01:02:33,840 might be a nugget here to to really look. 1055 01:02:34,240 --> 01:02:37,960 And it just why we wanted to end on that is it's just who we are 1056 01:02:37,960 --> 01:02:40,880 as humans, right? And so if everyone else you see 1057 01:02:40,880 --> 01:02:44,280 falling into the same trap, how do you know that you're not a 1058 01:02:44,880 --> 01:02:48,600 falling into the same trap? I think that's a great. 1059 01:02:48,640 --> 01:02:49,720 That's. A great ender. 1060 01:02:49,720 --> 01:02:53,480 So yeah, thanks so much. I hope people appreciate this 1061 01:02:53,480 --> 01:02:56,000 and and find it valuable. I I know I did. 1062 01:02:56,000 --> 01:02:59,240 So thanks for your time and your insights, and we'll stay in 1063 01:02:59,240 --> 01:03:00,360 touch. Thanks, Bram. 1064 01:03:00,760 --> 01:03:01,360 All right. Cheers. 1065 01:03:01,920 --> 01:03:03,320 I hope you. Enjoyed this episode? 1066 01:03:03,400 --> 01:03:06,680 If you did, you can click here to find more just like it and 1067 01:03:06,680 --> 01:03:09,520 click here to find all Bitcoin for Millennials podcast 1068 01:03:09,600 --> 01:03:11,880 episodes. Also, if you want to help me 1069 01:03:11,880 --> 01:03:15,720 shine a light on the message of Bitcoin, please like this video 1070 01:03:15,720 --> 01:03:19,280 and subscribe to stay connected. I hope to see you for a next 1071 01:03:19,280 --> 01:03:20,200 episode. Bye.