The hardest part about your Bitcoin journey isn't learning
how it works, it's unlearning everything that you were taught
about how the world functions. Jeff Booth is back on Bitcoin
for millennials and we discussed the prisoner's dilemma of modern
money, why we've never actually lived in a free market, and how
the current debt based money system forces everyone, even the
winners, into a game of voluntary serve them.
Jeff reveals why the system's attempts to control money are
mathematically doomed and why the truth of the Bitcoin
protocol is the only assets that cannot be captured.
This episode is the big picture reality check that I think a lot
of people need right now. Don't forget that you are
playing a crucial role in the biggest transition of our
lifetimes. All right, let's dive in.
All right, Jeff Booth, welcome back to Bitcoin for Millennials.
Great to see you buddy. Yeah, we have about an hour.
So let's see how far we how far we get.
I put on XI was talking to you and a lot of people send me
questions. So I've I've quite a few, but I
wanted to start with, I don't want to say a bone to pick with
you, but I really wonder if we can get to some sort of
consensus on on the topic of medium of exchange and and store
value. So as, as you know, I love your
philosophy. You've taught me a huge amount
along the way, But there's one thing that I really disagree
with you on, which is you say that Bitcoin will fail if it
doesn't come become a medium of exchange.
But wouldn't you agree that before it can be that it should
be abundantly clear that it is the best store of value, right?
That the hardest money to ever exist?
Like it isn't cash or any stable coin or any whatever any other
person accepts as a reward in a value exchange way better to
discard off than the best store of value to to ever exist.
If, if Bitcoin is kind of like this measurement for value, the
the ruler and we measure everything in Bitcoin, does it
really matter what people exchange value in eventually if
the underpinning is Bitcoin? I hope, I hope that makes sense.
I just, I just, you know, there's a sequence in, in
getting there where, where you think we should go.
Yeah. No, I don't, I don't believe
that. And I can tell you tell you why
and I just tell you the why the risks of what that what you just
described would be the risks. So from that, from that
viewpoint of it's a store of value first, right, We've always
had stores about why do you need a store of value underneath the
monetary system? Have you ever thought about
that? Well, I, I would, I would say
it's a function of of of something that I don't want to
spend today. So so.
So let me let me poke on that. You've needed a store value
because you couldn't store your value value in money because
because money's always been broken.
So what gives the financial system a belief that it won't be
centralized and and work? And that's what's happened to
gold is a store of value is everybody thinks that it's
underneath the monetary system. And then you have a broken
monetary system that is the opposite of the free market that
has to concentrate faster and faster.
And that monetary system that's centralizing and is it's it's
still theft on top of that system because and it's faster
and faster theft. And then it has to break the
rules of the centralization, right?
Yeah. So so it has to change gold the
rules, it has to confiscate or attack another country to stay,
to take it, to maintain its advantage.
And so that's the world that we've always known.
And that's why people think things turn into a store of
value 1st and then a monetary system because we've never known
something that was a protocol that was a network that was both
at the same time. Yeah, we'd we've never so so,
but, but so I understand why you would believe that and I
understand and and but now ask if everybody did that and it had
to be a store of value first, what would be the implications
of those actions? It was centralized, right?
What would be the implications of the centralized actions Then
all of the governments would would all the rails to it.
And then what would they do now? You know, remember, we're not
dealing with any type of technology we've ever dealt
with. We're talking about a
surveillance state with AI and surveillance state and
capabilities that you can't even imagine how fast it's
centralizing. When you look at Palantir, when
you look at Pegasus and everything that's they're
already monitoring everything you're doing, right?
Yeah. You're, you can be shut off on
YouTube tomorrow. You can your voice can be drawn
inside the surveillance state X all of this thing.
And there's right now almost a fight between the bankers and
the technocrats. And the technocrats own the
means of production today. And people are taking sides
within that, believing that they're safe, they're new God,
which is centralizing faster, right?
And they're using all of the same rails into that.
So now if you just keep on asking that question, what would
it look like if you had surveillance capabilities over
the entire population? They were even if they were in
self custody, but you were still operating in the other system.
Do you think, do you, do you think Bitcoin could?
Because what would happen after that is you would launch an
attack, you'd launch a chain split that you can only use my
Bitcoin. Yeah.
And that chain split would be really dangerous for the people
that were, were the small number of people and, and the people
that weren't using it as a medium of exchange.
And there was no privacy in it. And, and, and such it would down
now the nodes, people running nodes.
And you'd only have to I'm just going through kind of what you
would expect to see, even though some of those are dark things.
What you'd expect to see is put a couple people in jail, kill a
couple people, say that, say that there is have an event so
bad that this this, this group over here created a false flag
and drive people into saying you can only use US coin.
Yeah. And, and, and I, I think under
that type of attack, most people running Bitcoin right now,
especially if they made a whole bunch of money in US coin
wouldn't be Bitcoiners anymore. I mean, I totally follow the
reasoning and I also think just by the characteristics of
Bitcoin, it is already superior money, right?
And you and I could use it as a medium of exchange if if you
would accept it when Ioffer it to you when you deliver value to
me, right? So like conceptually I'm I'm
fully aligned. Why I want to ask the question
is that although I agree with you get getting there is a very,
I want to say social thing, right.
You you cannot force the adoption of of the of the medium
of exchange. And I think it is a rational
choice that you spend the money that is losing value, just, you
know, as, as the incentive that someone has and storing value
today, I'm talking about today in, in Bitcoin until Bitcoin
becomes more accepted. And yes, I agree, you can
participate in that, right? You, you, you can, you know, I
can start asking for more Bitcoin, I can start spending.
So I understand I can do that. But I wonder if that pace or
well, how do you think about that pace towards this future
that that you're describing? How do you think that goes?
It's funny how everybody is wondering what is is so
concerned, what other people should do.
Right. And, and in in this, you're,
you're really saying is I, I don't want to store it.
I don't want to spend it as a medium of exchange.
And that is your right to do. But if people don't, then, then
you won't activate the network as fast you won't, you won't.
There has to be people that do it early.
And I've made a decision to put my energy into the world that I
want to see. And I have no problem spending
in in Bitcoin and then trying to make more in Bitcoin.
I have zero problem with that. I think it's from.
So when you said there was a rational thing, there were the
rational actor is making the best interests of their their
against their beliefs and what they want the world to turn
into. Yeah.
And so, so there's a whole bunch of rational actors and then
there's also rational actors that will take that and say
instead of accepting a system where I'm losing money, I'm
paying 2 1/2 or to 3 1/2% credit card fees or bank fees to take
money that's losing money. Yeah, right.
But which? Which is most of the rational
actors in your in the world that you're talking about?
Well, or oblivious, but they're just doing it right.
They're just doing it. Began They're they're they think
they're rational actors and there's other people are going
to say the fuck at all I am going to give a discount to my
to people who are using my service that pay in Bitcoin yeah
and I'm going to make more margin.
Yes. And so I'm going to win the
market by by by cutting out the middle men and being
peer-to-peer. And as I do that, and, and so
all of these things are happening at the same time and
there is no one audience. And, and in some countries, it's
not 2 1/2 to 3 1/2 percent, it might be 10 to 12%, right?
And some countries that they don't have banking that this is
a lifeline. And so, so, and I've said this
on many different podcasts in many different ways, but a
protocol like this, so always fit the monopoly does a
consistent thing to try to protect a monopoly.
We're seeing a monopoly of money trying to stop Bitcoin, right?
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one. When you have a protocol or a or
a new technology, it always starts not from the monopoly.
Who has vested interests inside the monopoly?
And you, and in Europe and me in the US, we're in the top of the
monopoly. Yes.
So we wouldn't see what happens at the at the people that were
extracting from from being at the top of the monopoly, how
they might use this and move move value, value from the
bottom up. And technology always moves from
so it moves from the furthest pit way that people most hurt by
a monopoly go first. So why El Salvador went first is
totally logical, right? Why other countries are racing.
We invested in a company they did 800 million in in, in
transactions 2 years ago, 2.2 billion in transaction in
Africa, 2.2 billion last year, probably does 7 billion in
transactions and enlightening and Bitcoin transactions this
year. Makes perfect sense.
Yeah, but and so and what? And it makes perfect sense why
people in the monopoly would be making different decisions,
because they haven't had to make those decisions.
Yeah, again, I agree with that. And this is also where my
question comes from. So it's not necessarily from my
own point of view. I'm just when I'm looking at
other people and I think I agree with you, you know, in in our
sphere of, of the world, their, their need for understanding
that their money is broken. Although, you know, a lot of
things around them are happening as, as we can see, because we
are, you know, interested or curious or whatever.
There's a lot of people that are totally oblivious to monetary
debasement. They're pointing all the all,
all, all different types of ways not at the at the source of
this, right. So that is kind of where I'm
coming from. It's like, OK, and I don't want
to trick you because there's no good answer, right?
But like what is big enough? Like what is a big enough
acceptance? When, when, when Bitcoin does
survive as this medium of exchange?
I just think there's it's it's really hard to put a number on
it, but I do see the same challenge as in, OK, how do we
convince people to not only first protect their wealth from
the basement that is I think step one that is getting into
Bitcoin and then Step 2 is continuing to use this better
money right as a medium of exchange.
So it does proliferate and you know, more people get in touch
with etcetera. And that is how it how it gets
adopted. And so my main thing is more
like, OK, if that is why I said the rational thing, right?
If you know, your first step is, OK, I got to protect my wealth
in Bitcoin. And the thing that I still spend
in this transition period is perhaps Fiat money or stable
coins or, you know, whatever whoever Walmart coins something
right there is this transition phase.
And I just, I'm just curious about the, the pace of how fast
that should go versus the future that you are projecting, because
you already see that a lot of centralized forces are paying
attention to Bitcoin or are trying to choke it, right?
Like in in the EU, there's also already a lot of regulation
where, you know, people have to register KYCML, all all these
things. So there, there is a notion of a
certain threat. I would say, although they're
not calling it that, but they're doing a lot of things to kind of
narrow, I would say the group of people that that would adopt and
and use it. So I'm just just wondering about
this timeline because again, I agree with you, but I also think
that you cannot force the medium of exchange use on people that
is a very individual so. If you have, I see people
starting from medium of exchange before store value.
OK, I've been to many circular economies around the world where
it starts at meaning of exchange instead of your perception as it
starts. Exactly.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And and, and many other people
in in first world countries start star value.
So it's it's a very unique thing to you that you're ascribing to.
It has to look like that for everyone, yes, and, and, and it
doesn't it people should use this how they determine to use
it in their best interests and what they think the the world
looks like. When I think, when I think about
our own agency in this, each of our own agency, which we've
always given to somebody else. If you're operating in the Fiat
system, if you're spending all of your time and energy in the
Fiat system and yelling at the same Fiat system, who's to
blame? No, I I agree.
We we've talked about this before, but I think it's just
interesting. That's kind of what I'm getting
at. And but and I don't again,
people don't have to agree. They disagree.
I love the disagreement right from, from, from this, but what
I what makes me so positive that this is going to work and stay
decentralized and secure and impose its building and layers
and everything else and, and do exactly what I suspect is I'm in
that environment every day. Yeah, I'm talking to those
people every day. I'm talking to the builders who
are never going back, who are building this.
I'm going into the circular economies.
I'm watching what's changing. I'm watching the people move
from fear to hope, thousands of them, right who who are adding
their voice to this network and him and spending more time and
building into the to this network.
And I'm also watching people who never knew this unlock and move
and move and move exactly what you just described.
Pieces sometimes store value first, then I want to learn a
little bit more. How do I move more time into it?
I'm watching the entire thing, but what would it feel like if
there's, let's call it 10,000 people over here and 8 billion
people over here with all the misunderstandings of everything
else about what Bitcoin is, that it's a protocol, that it's
emerging in layers. What would the world look like
in the noise of the world today? It would look exactly like this.
It would be really confusing because because most people,
most of the people were in every single person, whether you were
in the like the thing I was talking about Peter with the
your version of the world, you would think you knew better than
everybody else. And those other people were
crazy. And I and and so so it.
Again, the change is not Bitcoin, the change is US.
Yeah. Yeah, I agree.
I mean, I, I'm seeing these comments on X every day.
You don't see them anymore. But yes, from a lot of other
people's point of view, you know, we, we are obviously the
crazy ones and part of the Ponzi and all these things, right?
This is how they judge it. And I think we, we've talked
about this extensively. So I, I, I want to thank you for
the reflection. I will, I will think about it,
but I think it's interesting to kind of tie it back and also
want to double click on a thread.
It's Bitcoin is very big. I, I would say, right, this is
kind of what I take from, from this back and forth.
It's like it, it is, it is so paradigm shifting.
There's also something we've talked about before and it, it,
it is my individual experience is different from yours and your
actions are different from mine and and so on and so on and, and
all these other people, right. But there is a, there's a,
there's a North Star. We're moving towards something
and everyone is at a different level of action, interest and
and knowledge, I would say. But it's more about the the
moving, I would say, right. And yeah.
Because of the consensus mechanism and what this looks
like, there's a North Star for you.
And that North star might be different for somebody else
who's trying to create an empire inside.
Like let's just say if you wanted to create a new financial
system that you were the king of the financial system and it was
still a broken financial system. You might see Bitcoin as a store
of value. And I'm going to accept, I'm
going to collect as much as possible and I'm going to keep
this exact same rails of a broken monetary system to based
on extraction. And if you were talking like
that, you would polarize an audience, completely polarize an
audience. You could say you're both
Bitcoiners and the people that that looked from outside to
Bitcoiners, they would wonder what the hell is of these crazy
fights. Right.
Because they were looking at it from two different frameworks, 1
is as an asset like you just described it and 1 is a protocol
that changes the world And both those assets and both of those
frameworks produced completely different forward views.
And so I don't, again, I don't judge anybody by their actions
and whatever things, I also expect that if we've never lived
in a global free market, then we would have to be then we also
have to accept that we are part of the problem through getting
Co opted, right? And most people would get Co
opted because because they, because they'll tell them sums
of story. I need to just, I need to do
enough for my family, right? And I'll take the short term win
to get Co opted. The the financial system
wouldn't look like it does if that wasn't true.
We wouldn't go into these endless wars.
We wouldn't go into all this. We wouldn't.
We wouldn't see Jeffrey Epstein and all of the all of what that
means and then still operate in that same money thinking that we
could have a different result. But we do, meaning that all of
that power that's accruing more and more from our actions inside
that system that centralized more and more that we keep on
telling ourselves, it's not us, it's them.
There's always an external validator to say it can't be us,
but it is US. And so, so that's why this is
such a, This is why this is such a deep conversation and
therefore has to be a deep conversation.
If it's the first time in, in, in history, we could, we could
actually have a protocol that that essentially enshrined rules
of the best of us into something for the best for us that
couldn't be cheated. But you would have to expect the
entire path along that way it it will try to be cheated.
And many people that are saying today that they're bitcoiners
won't make the journey. And I think this is exactly why
I just said, you know, This is why Bitcoin is so big.
It's so big because it goes so deep, right?
I mean, I, I just saw a picture of Howard Lutnick with Jeffrey
Epstein on his island, right? And Lutnick loves Bitcoin and
therefore other people like Lutnick or, or whatever, right?
And I think this is what you're partially also alluding to with
what you're saying, right? This is why this is so difficult
and so big and, and something I wanted to zoom in on this.
You know, I think you and I fully agree Bitcoin is a is a
parallel system that embodies certain characteristics, right,
like, like the force transparency, for example, hard
cap supplies, you know that are totally opposite of Fiat money
right And and, and we think that is a good thing.
It serves IT services the the obvious and and and and very
fundamental of of flaws of of Fiat money right.
As long as Bitcoin stays decentralized as and and secure,
as you say, right, as long as it stays like that, it will just
keep on chugging along. We'll be doing what it's doing
right and therefore it will show its characteristics as this
mirror. You can call it the light first,
the dark or whatever right and that is why more and more people
will make the individual decision.
OK, this is a a better money, but wouldn't you agree that that
no government, you know, would would ever give up control the
control they have now over issuing a currency, right, Like
however that helps them. So in the US, you can kind of
see these did this, this this this market of free market of
money, you know, taking taking shape.
Like I said, you're going to have Walmart coin and whatever
coin and all these coins have to buy U.S.
Treasury. So even though they let the
currency kind of free, perhaps it all ties back to the debt of
the country, which they cannot really magically make make
disappear. Maybe they inflated away into
Bitcoin, whatever. But I think what you're now
saying is we shouldn't be be really sure if that is a a good
thing, right? That is how they might see.
It's a terrible. View using bit for their goals.
So, so of course it's going to happen because because it
extends their goals, it extend sends a reign of monopoly power.
Of course it's going to happen and it's not a good thing for
the decent because if it happened and you didn't do the
counter to be able to make it a protocol spend in in private,
then then it would centralized and Bitcoin would break.
And when that coin, when that inevitable chain split comes,
then then you you'd likely be on the wrong side of that that
because because of that, now that's not going to happen.
It's going to be tried. It's going to be, it's going to
feel so chaotic because most of the energy of the world is
there. And most of those people that
are thinking in Bitcoin in the piece of paper will side with
the piece of paper because they're looking at a store of
they're not looking at a store of value in Bitcoin.
They're looking at store of value against a piece of paper.
Yes. And you can see.
You can see it is a SO right now the, the hands in the air and
everything else about the price and everything else, you have a
network expansion that is exploding.
I was in, I was in a network expansion that that was
exploding in the early Internet. I built, built a company there
and in 1999 to 2000 everything collapsed.
Amazon, I think went from 128 down to $3.
Everything collapsed. We, our company just barely
survived through this. But when you looked at the
Internet and they and the traffic and the people building
things and what was happening, it was like straight up to the
to the right. And then you had a pricing event
that collapsed and everybody got flushed out.
Nothing changed. No, nothing changed.
You had a, you had a protocol network and a network effect
that was exploding and nothing changed.
And today you have the exact same thing in Bitcoin, the
price, the price. And because they're all
measuring it from a piece of paper, that is the, that is the
thing that is giving the centralized control more
structure, more and more power. So, so, so, so obviously that's
a really hard concept to, for people to understand.
It feels really easy to me because I've been saying it for
so long, but when I watch people make decisions on this network,
they're constantly making decisions from trying to compare
the old to the new. And like you said, they're 180,
they're totally different. The, the operating principles of
everything change everything. So you have to start from the
new and what that hoses if it stays decentralized and secure.
And then you have to, then you have to say, what are the risks?
Because if everybody's in this other system and it gains its
power from everybody. Yes.
Then you have to think about what the risk through that lens
look like on this new, new protocol.
And then you have to ask an honest question.
Can it resolve? Can it stay decentralized and
secure against those risks and, and, and come to a conclusion?
Why or why not? All right, I'm, I'm going to
stay on this threat because one of the things I, I wrote down
was something you, you just mentioned, you know, this, this,
there's a threat I think some people see, and I think you just
alluded to it too, right? That you could see a, a change,
split a fork by institutions. You know, in, in the beginning
of the Black Rock ETF, there was this legal disclaimer that, you
know, went kind of viral, which I think it is just a legal
disclaimer. But on the other side, it also
opens up what you just talked about, right?
They, they, I think it said something like in the event of a
chain split, we decide which one to go with.
And that is what, you know, the I bit thing is, you know, the
ETF is going to do they have a certain leverage because they
can choose theirs over the the Bitcoin one, right by by dumping
the old and and and switching it for the new, etcetera.
So do you view this as a legitimate threat?
Is this going to happen or is just this just something that
also exists? So.
Like how do you judge it? And This is why I'm trying to
get people to claim their own agency.
This is this is really what I'm trying to do in virtually every
podcast as people understand it more, right?
I'm trying to get them to claim their own agency.
And if you're pricing it from a piece of paper, and if you're
holding it on one of those exchanges, you haven't claimed
your own agency. You're still inside the other
system. And you're probably fear and
you're probably talking about the fear.
What about this? What about this all day long?
Well, you're giving that a amplifying the, the ability for
it to create that fear. That system lives on your fear.
It lives on the next chaotic event to be able to create the
fear, to be able to create the control system that you that you
live in. You don't know it because you're
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Now let's continue. I I think you are the perfect
person to to unpack further again.
Why this is so big right? Because our our whole entire
lives is the creation of a paradigm in in this right.
Like I have my entire life to thank for Fiat money until I got
to Bitcoin right. I mean like that is in in the
country that I grew up in it just it just worked, right.
So I don't have any real urge to to figure out that the money is
broken on that or that there are all these perverse incentives at
the top right from my position right and.
And and then we have to realize that because you were closer to
the top of the monopoly than somebody in in the Democratic
Republic of Congo, somewhere else.
You don't realize that you extracted from them and you.
I knew but yes but. Again and so so what's happening
today is is there there's an honest protocol that says thou
that shall not cheat. Yes.
And every single person in on the planet can move to their
energy to that protocol. The debt down is not cheat.
And as they understand what their life looks like as they
move more time and energy onto that protocol, that protocol
expands. That is the network expansion.
It's it's also the layers that are being built on top to
provide the risk. And and the vast majority of the
world has no idea that they can move their time and energy over
to this. So they're stuck in this
operating framework that you describe many bitcoiners stuck
in that operating for and they're just measuring this
asset through the piece of paper and getting and getting scared
out when price and they they, they liquidate out when it falls
because they're scared it's going to happen over and over
and over again as we change and realize that the world is
created from the sum of our actions.
It doesn't, it doesn't happen to us.
We have a say. And when you have agency NSA and
you see a whole bunch of other people adding their agency and
NSA to be able to create that you're not scared of any of this
nonsense anymore. Yeah, but there will be chain
spots. You you might you might be on
the wrong side of that chain split.
Yeah, many people will be right because there would be they
would be scared of the of that and they were it just like be
cash Lobo to zero. Yeah, it will be.
Yes. So I, This is why I, I, I love
this, but there's this. I think what is difficult is to
connect the, the, the technical parts and the, the, the profound
implication of having a open source protocol that
conceptually no one can kill, right?
The protocol for perfect money is out there and it can live on
forever, even in the a dark corner of the Internet with 10
people, right? And, and, and that is fact.
And I think what you are saying is okay, what you need to do.
I think that the, the jump or the translation is to okay, if,
if you can understand what the implications are of this
profound conceptual, technical thing, you should act on it,
right? I, I sometimes tweet.
It's like we're memeing it into existence.
That's what we're doing, right? We're, we're manifesting it
together, literally because we are putting our, our energy and,
you know, attention actions toward it, etcetera.
But there's this, it's a dual understanding of of you need to
understand to a certain degree what the technological discovery
is, but also what the moral implications are when you
proliferate it into the world. Because if you can kind of
visualize that destination, it gives you energy and motivation
and an incentive to to do certain things today.
Does that make sense? It's kind of how I, I would give
that back to you. Yeah.
Well, then the knots and core I,
I have not well, from time to time I've been in this
discussion, but I think to an extent on, on what we're talking
about right now. I think it's actually very good
bridge to to touch upon that. I, I had a lot of people on X
talking about this. You know, the question is more
about how true this lens that you're describing.
Can you view this, you know, the actions of of core V30, you
know, increasing upper turn limit etcetera.
There's a counterforce knots, you know, BIP 110 people talk
about, you know, this Epstein thing he funded through the MIT
Media Lab, people working on it, etcetera.
So you know, stuff is happening. People have different opinions
of what they should do. They have different motivations.
I think it's very hard to really understand personal motivations
of from my point of view as I'm following this with interest,
but how do you think? Just through.
This, there's different ideologies on one side and, and
like moral implications and there is like different
technical implications. So I, I think that's a good
bridge to, to what we're talking about.
OK, I'm going to start. And because these are so charged
conversations, I'm going to, I'm going to start at a higher level
and I'll break it down to, to, to, to this conversation because
this is going to happen time and time again, right?
And they're all going to be I agree, I agree.
And they're all going to be charged.
Yeah. And and they're going to be
charged because to people have a different belief in their own
way of action of what Bitcoin is, right.
So let me start with with if you understand game theory and
iterative game prisoners dilemma, iterative game theory
and you understand the best rational choice or what you can
make in that game. And then and then and all game
theory is, is really how we act, right?
What is what is the best interests of us and what, how do
we act under different scenarios?
So if you add payoff matrices to, to game theory and one
payoff matrix, you won't get caught.
And then another one. I'm going to keep on increasing
the reward. I'm going to start at $10
hundred dollars, $1000 million dollars, 10 billion dollars,
$100 billion. I'm going to keep going higher
and higher and higher. What you find is, is I've seen
as low as as 2 1/2% of people will not take the money.
But but that, by the way, what I just described shows why money's
always been broken because 97 1/2% of people will say I won't.
I won't, I won't. And by the way, if you watch Mr.
Beast or if you watch, if you watch Survivor, if you these
shows are built on that and why they're so compelling is because
we're watching and asking ourselves, could we?
Right. And, and what you see is the 97
1/2% of people always take money.
And you and and and and you. See over and over and over again
and then the 2 1/2% and then we and then you you celebrate.
Wow, that person was so great but they walked away with 0 and
you forget about them right Sidestep.
Do you know the? Percentage of people that are
INTJ, yeah, I know it's around the same.
Let's do it after. Yeah, I.
Know. So, so, so which which might be
a different version of what we're talking about, but what,
but what the 2 1/2% of people and that this has been
consistent throughout history. I think the because that's how
we're wired. What they're, what they're
saying is, is I couldn't live with myself if I did that right.
And what most people are saying is I need to do this before
somebody else does it to me for my family.
They're not bad people. They're not everything.
Else so if that's been the entire history and by the way,
you could actually probably tie this into you might be able to
tie this into religions. You might be able to tie in
everything else because or, or any significant leader that was
killed. What would it look like if you
were the lone wolf that was that was so dangerous to the system?
To and then. What would it look like to those
people as we celebrated in them? The thing we couldn't hold in
ourselves, right? What?
Would the observer. Effect from the person who was
standing standing out there. It would be really dangerous for
a control system because they were above it, but they would be
that there. It would be lonely and they
would most likely be killed over time from the control system.
So what Bitcoin gives us is through the consensus mechanism
and what this is those 2 1/2% of people typically aggregate.
They run nodes, Cypher punks, they run and, and in anonymity,
right. And and so you don't have to
poke your head up and everything else, but as there's thousands
of these people. That is the backbone that.
Protects Bitcoin and and now it gives the 97 1/2% of people who
aren't just bad people, some probably 2 1/2 percent on the
other might be for the 97 1/2 Purdue.
They just don't have the just given a choice if somebody's
going to cheat them or they're going to get cheated.
They'll cheat somebody before they get cheated, but now they
can. Cooperate in an.
Honest chain and so it. Moves the entire.
World in the direction of what we're talking about and more and
more people can see themselves in it.
OK. So now with with, with just with
that as a frame. So my expectation and and 0 sum
versus. What I got from you, the
cooperative competitive? Yeah, exactly.
An infinite game 0 sum. Game to an infinite game.
Yeah, OK. And, and once you see yourself
in the infinite game, if you truly see yourself in the
infinite game, then you, you and you know yourself, you know
you're never going to go to the 0 sum game.
But each person has to ask that for themselves.
And, and what my expectation is is 97 1/2% of people that I know
today. So people think I'm an optimist,
right? Or or utopian.
I'm just looking at the. Data and, and all of these
things and, and I know how big the challenge is, but I also
know that if there's 2 1/2% of people that'll do this, that's a
huge number of people that aren't going back and that'll
swing in favor more and more people.
So now that's kind of the highest level.
So my expectation is most people will cheat my expectation.
Is when they say. Don't slay your heroes or go
spear slay your heroes is because most people will cheat
right? That's the meme.
Saying what I just said.
So now underneath, underneath that, if you had one.
Instance. Core and you had a world that
looked like that. You could expect that that group
of people to be whether they knew they were being Co opted or
they're whether they're being Co opted, you could expect
overtime. And I'm not saying they were or
weren't right. I'm saying you're he would have
to have an expectation if the entire political establishment
looks like this and. And and and.
And through money and power and everything else, and you had a
group of people with power, a narrow group of people with
power. And that that narrow group of
people was a risk to this entire power structure.
You would have to expect that those people would be, would be
attacked. And when I say attacked, I
wouldn't, you wouldn't. Do it in a way.
That they would know they were being attacked.
You would do it in a friendly way.
You would do it in these things are needed and everything else.
And so, but the consensus mechanism and, and I'm sorry,
I'm going in kind of layers because it's such a deep topic
and, but, but so the consensus mechanism and what it means to
me is I get to see everything we've.
Always lived in a world. Where we lived in the small box,
the. The crazies were either.
Killed or or made to look crazy and we couldn't see their ideas
even if they were genius because we lived in the small box and
the consensus mechanism breaks that box wide open that we all
get to the see see the entire thing we get to see the the the
person who could be a genius over here right and and 99% of
the time they're genius and 1% of the time they do something
that does massive harm and we. Can see the person over here
that. Is exactly the same the same,
right? And we get to decide what
Bitcoin means for us. And so given all.
Of this and what I would expect the world to look like when and
and and I want to say I really like a bunch of people in in in
core. I like Jerry Akimo I I I like a
bunch of the people on on Odell. Many of the people and as I say
these names, I know I'm going to get attacked right from the
other side. And then I love other people
mechanic Luke, because I'm looking at the idea, not the
person constantly I and and the debate.
And as people fight more and more, I want to dig in more.
And at any time there's an ad hominem attack.
I I think that's my clue to look deeper because most people can't
look deeper, right, because they're so caught up in their in
Group bias out group bias. I'm better.
That person's bad that they can't see the genius on both
sides. And so so how do I do this?
I run knots today. I run knots because because I
thought what core did on on on version 30 was dangerous.
And when I looked at the, when I, when I looked at that and,
and, and it was and I, and, and I suspect that as, as you're a
group of people and people are attacking you and saying this is
dangerous, then it's easier to create an echo Chamber of other
people that are your friends and everything else to stop
listening. I'm not saying it would be a
really hard job to, to do this because you're constantly under
attack, but you have and, and the human condition is you want
to talk to people who like you instead of people that, who
don't like you. And so that would create this,
this essentially narrow group think that expelled people like
Luke. And when I look at some of the
stuff that Luke Dasher has done, he's brilliant, right when I
look at some of the stuff that he's done.
And so I made a decision for myself to run knots.
Now the risk of. Knots is is there enough
maintainers? Does it, does it grow?
Does it and and then what if there's just a new a new version
of a of a risk that that? Then.
That then consolidated power and under under a control.
So that is very real risk that you have to understand as well.
But knowing all of these things, I made a choice to to run knots.
I have not made a choice yet to run pip 1-10, but I understand
the the both sides of the issue and I part of the reason I
haven't made a choice yet and everybody wants me to is I
understand the risks to that choice too.
And when I do and, and I don't want me people to do things
because I did them. I want them to do them because
they've done the work themselves to decide what what that looks
like. But when I when I when I look at
all of these people and the fights on either side, then I
get a it actually helps me get. Smarter on these On these.
Issues. So I'm thankful for all of them.
Yeah, I think a. Few thoughts here.
This there's a few things I always say, you know, the fact
that that people were paying attention to, you know, people
like Epstein and surroundings in in in 2011 to Bitcoin, right?
Or just in in general. You know, Gavin Andreessen went
to this CIA presentation that he later wrote about on the forums
where he said, like, they all thought I was a weird guy or, or
whatever, right? Like the, the fact that people
in that in those realms were already paying attention to
Bitcoin for me is actually a very positive thing, right?
I mean, how, how many random ideas are released on the
Internet every day, let alone on obscure cyberpunk Internet
forums, right? Why would you even pay attention
to that? And it's still alive and growing
today, right? So for me that is, that is a, a,
a signal that this is something special and, and something big,
something that that takes a long time and that everyone, like you
said, will look at the profoundness importance of it
in, in their own way. And they will fight or, or
contribute to that in again, in their, in their own way.
But the beauty in the technical sense is that, well, I would
say, well, there's a beauty and there's a, a, a, a challenge
because it is so absolutely transparent, right?
You can verify everything for yourself.
And therefore I would say you should to make a.
Decision as to how. You adopt Bitcoin and goes back,
I think to the beginning of this conversation as as as well,
right? The the fun or interesting thing
is that with Fiat money, you never had a clue, right?
You just, you just, you know, used the card and it beeped and
you got something from a store and you were like, yeah,
whatever this is, apparently This is Money, right?
And when you were younger, it was with coins and bills.
And so you never questioned it, although it makes you a subject
in, in a, in a system, right, Not, not an actor.
So your ignorance is basically used to abuse you steal your
time and energy and all these things.
But again, because Bitcoin is this mirror and it is the total
transparent opposite, all this agency is put on you.
I, I would say, right. So you have to do the work.
And therefore, I think we also see all these struggles because
different kinds of people with different kinds of no morals or,
or understanding or IQ whatever, it doesn't really matter.
They all get confronted with that forced transparency and
this, this fighting this, this tension basically.
And and think about some of the things.
That that a bunch of developers might or might not know because
they're good at code, they and, but they might not.
They might be making the same intuitive mistake by measuring a
Fiat system into a Bitcoin system that most people make
right. A free market operates
different. So, so so when I watched the
debate on on some of the stuff that the why, why they why some
of this stuff happened to protect miners fees.
I'm going this is insane, right? The the mining mining doesn't
need fees the the block. Reward if.
Measured in Bitcoin right, it's a isn't is enough to 2140 and
and what you're saying is is right right now the through
lightning pediment and other stuff.
It's removing that capacity to be able to to so you have an
anchor at the bottom it and why I say this is if you tried to
drive fees and and mining, if you were a bad actor trying to
drive fees, Andre Standard. So what would you be doing?
You'd be locking in a high cost data center around high cost
energy and you'd get wiped out faster by the free market.
Yeah. Because because the.
The mining always is always driving to to to the new
equipment, new compute and the lowest cost energy.
So if you're if you're trying to extend your life on fees to try
to extend your life on a data center, you're driving yourself
off a Cliff faster because you're not driving at the free
market to the edge of edge of energy.
And so that's what you're seeing right now.
And you're seeing this like I'm on the board, of course,
scientific and Bitcoin mining it and they have some of the lowest
cost energy in the US. Bitcoin mining doesn't work
anymore, right, because because now at the hash rate, it's
unprofitable. And so so when when, when I
watched the debate around what we should do to protect miners
or the. Centralization of miners.
And that's going to be a problem.
It's because they don't understand how markets work, and
the centralization of market mining cannot happen in this
industry. Because it operates on the.
Free market principle. It's interesting that.
The The thing that Bitcoin philosophically promises to
accelerate their fuel, right? This free market is also the
thing that is happening in the journey to to getting there,
right? Like like bit the proof of work.
I wonder what you think I want to check like proof of work is
true on every fractal of bit, right?
Like from the technical to the philosophical to to the, the,
the whole personal, the spiritual parts, whatever,
right? And so I think the interesting
thing is that if you want to participate in this free market
of this idea in general, whether philosophically or you know, I'm
doing a cost, other people, mine, whatever.
Yeah, you got you got to. Do it right like.
It's it's walk your talk, basically.
So if you want to do a change split because you don't agree
with XYZ, you should do it because you can and you should.
And you're going to figure out if enough people care and if
not, they're not. And if they do they, they do
right? And I, I, I really like that we
went here because this is the essence now.
This is the essence. Like if you want to do it, you
should like you. It's not only talk, you have to
do it. It's what is Bitcoin to you?
Right. And why I aligned with with
knots is Bitcoin is a protocol to me and it's, and it's coming
in layers and it's money and everything else and it's not a
database. And so I so I line more with
that side. Now I understand why other
people would want this. I understand why in entire
construct of the way the world works today would want the
existing things to be to be be different and Bitcoin is always
resolved against us. Now, whether this works for
right now on Bitcoin 10 or or not.
And I don't want to change, but, right.
And so, so, but, but, but at some point I'm going to be
called to which one which, what Bitcoin, what is Bitcoin for me,
right? And I'm going to, and, and
whether that's now whether when it, when it gets centralized
more and centralized exchanges and comes after Bitcoin.
But at some point these things are going to happen and we're
all going to be called on to make the decision on what that,
what that looks like to us, right?
And there's probably and, and because I think because this is
such a complicated conversation and because of the transition
and because we're measure and most people are measuring from
the other system still, it's going to it's going to elicit
these crazy responses and fighting for what people believe
on both sides. Yeah.
And I I I almost want to say. As as we should, if we think
about how That's the beauty of about the consent.
Important. We have to see it all.
Yeah, we have to see it all. And it should be that important
to you. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But it it is. Not changing the technology of
money is not an easy in the world, right?
Is not an easy feat and also not a quick journey.
And, and I think this is the, you know, I, I like to talk a
lot about the, the, the, the personal journey, spiritual part
of this. I think this is where you
eventually want to get that that you are.
It is why some people say Bitcoin is like.
A religion, right? But you give your, you, you give
your attention and your energy to this thing in the in the
future, which maybe will only happen after you die, right?
Like and then take a very long time and and then and that's
why. You just said before we started,
you still get triggered sometimes of everything else.
I just realized that this is a personal journey from every
single person going through this, all of the people going
through it. If this was going to continue,
it has to look like this. And all of this misinformation
has to look like this. And all of the different
versions of what reality look like have to look like this.
And I don't begrudge somebody from their what their version
is. I can, I can completely.
I can respect somebody immensely that has a different idea for
for what this is and a different, different version.
And I can still learn from them, even if I might not agree with
them on this, on a on, on what it is to me.
Yeah. Well, I'm happy you got that
insight too. This is also what I think it's,
it's a 1 by 1 conversion, right? It, it is, dude.
Are you making the choice? And it's on on on every level,
Yeah. Of taking on that absolute
agency. That's why I think it it is.
It is, you know, some people don't like it.
I think what I say, but it's partially, partially
enlightening to, you know, to to a degree where you really say
like, OK, I'm really going to take control or attempt to take
control with this technology that is given to us.
And there's a lot of scary stuff that comes with taking control,
right? Taking on that agency versus in,
in a Fiat money world, just outsourcing almost everything to
other people no better than you and, and, and on a different
level of their own, you know, spiritual or personal journey
in, in their lives, right. And so I think it is just again,
this, this fractal idea of the proof of work is just so
interesting. Like if you say yes on one
level, you basically have to go to all these other levels and
also say yes, but they might take different times before you
personally get there, right? That's what, That's what's.
Happening and it's a this is imposing this across the world
and it's our choice whether to I understand and and when and how
and what it looks like and you you watch I watch people even
even with my body of work right that have seen it 100.
Times. And still not yet or or or fight
against me and say like the worst things about me, right?
How stupid I am everything else. And then and then one one day
click and they get it right and it was.
Never about me. It was something, it was
something it was, it wasn't. It was how they viewed the
world. And this thing was too hard to
be able to grab on to. And it was about them.
And it wasn't about it wasn't about me when they yelled at me.
It wasn't about me when they loved me.
It was about them. And as and so watching people
make this, this journey into this thing and, and, and the
number of people that have why I'm so, so excited and just
grateful to be here right in this time in the world.
Is it when, when, when I know the thousands of people on the
front lines of this who were fighting for a better few and
and they're not even fighting for a better future.
They're they're building a better future.
They're in in they're literally their energy is inside this
thing and and more and more all the time.
It's so crazy hopeful that the little fights and everything
else that you should expect along the way, if this is going
to to to work, they just they just they're nothing burgers to
me. Yeah, I think the word.
Would be striving. We're striving towards
something, right? All right, We're actually, we're
actually building. It right, Yeah, it's not it's
not happening to us. We're Co creating it, yeah.
I agree, and that's also what I really.
Like is like what is Bitcoin to you?
What you said, right, like whatever Bitcoin is to you.
If, if, if there is a certain calling in there where you think
like I want to contribute, you can basically do anything,
right? It doesn't really, it doesn't
really matter what all right, too.
I, I know we have to wrap up. I, I still had a lot of
questions from everyone on X, but I think this was the, the,
the, the right conversation at the right time for this, because
I feel that a lot of people miss the bigger picture within all
the noise, basically, right? But, and you can extract
yourself from the noise. I mean, I know that that you did
that, but I also think there's still a lot of people that need
to. Hear.
What this bigger picture is and what it asks from them as well,
that that it's not an easy feat, that it's going to take a lot of
time, that it is the proof of work.
Can I just the? And and potentially the same
thing that happened in core and the potentially thing that
happens in all human beings in all societies and why we we
gravitate through these small groups and everything else in
Group out group bias you would likely.
Never belong to the. To the group that you thought
was inferior, right? Yeah, so, so, so when you when
you're in Group, you think you, you automatically assume that
group is better. You you might not come across
that away, but that's your natural thing to to and and it
and you're easily exploited and to those other people, right.
When I see when I see the things when the derangement on both
sides of the this and some of it's the right and people
fighting for when they can do it whatever where they want.
But but that that's what I see is that in Group out group bias
and people and and people missing the signal.
The people missing the signal that they can learn.
They can learn from their enemy. They can learn from somebody in
a different group. They can, they can say, they can
still just rationally make decisions and say, even if I
didn't agree with somebody, 99% of the time I might have, there
might be a nugget here to to really look.
And it just why we wanted to end on that is it's just who we are
as humans, right? And so if everyone else you see
falling into the same trap, how do you know that you're not a
falling into the same trap? I think that's a great.
That's. A great ender.
So yeah, thanks so much. I hope people appreciate this
and and find it valuable. I I know I did.
So thanks for your time and your insights, and we'll stay in
touch. Thanks, Bram.
All right. Cheers.
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