All right, hey there, this is Palm Constant and you're
listening to Bitcoin for Millennials.
With my guests on this podcast, I go on a journey to discover
how our current financial system works, why it's flawed, and why
Bitcoin is the most relevant technological discovery you
should understand and adopt. In this episode, I'm joined by
my anonymous friend Lau. He's been a small business owner
since he started working and has always been interested in
getting the best value for his time with the least compromise.
After he managed to own his own time, he started dedicating it
to studying Bitcoin socialism and Austrian economics to try
and understand where we all might be going in the future.
I've already had many wonderful conversations with him in real
life and I'm happy to welcome him finally, I might say on the
podcast. So welcome now.
Thank you, Brum. We're here, yeah.
We start. We start in Dutch.
Well, yeah, like I said, I think we had lots of nice
conversations. We we knew each other a bit from
the Internet and then we met in real life.
And I think, I don't know, first time we met, we talked for three
hours for something about every everything I might say.
So I'm super excited to to jump in.
You sent me some thoughts and statements before a recording
about the economy, philosophy, your insights in life and
Bitcoin. So I'd love to just go through
them together in this episode. And I wanted to start with what
your definition is of a paradigm and why you believe they are
essential for exploring ideas despite some of them not being
true, right. I think that's a big thing in
Bitcoin is I think you can factually learn how Bitcoin
works. That is all out there, all that
information is out there. But actually switching the
paradigm that you adhere to consciously or unconsciously,
like that's the biggest challenge for people.
So I'd love to hear your thoughts on that.
I think a paradigm is a structure that we can use in
different ways. I think we can use it to
understand a certain situation and how it develops.
And it is, I think, essential to understanding certain certain
situations in life and how they relate to one another.
And I see it as a, as a as a framework and a construct that
we are capable of creating. That doesn't necessarily need to
be true. That we can use as a tool for
reaching ideas and insights that are helpful for for discovering
truth, discovering how things could be.
And sometimes you just need to sidestep truth to see what isn't
true so that you can determine where to go with your mind.
And I think a paradigm is very helpful in this in this sense.
But you would agree that they are all created, right?
Yes. I actually wanted to ask what is
truth, right? What is?
How do we know what is true? Isn't that always?
Well. Subjective in a sense.
Not necessarily if. Well, yeah, it it it depends on
what you start, what you start with as the the basis of what
what we are as as as humans and what what knowledge really is.
Where. We can go very deep and
philosophical into whether a thought or an idea really exists
if if humans don't exist. But given the situation that
we're already talking to each other, I think it's safe to
assume that that thought is not necessary for discovering
knowledge, discovering understanding.
And yeah, so a paradigm is a construct.
It's it's it's a a framework that is designed by by people by
thinking about thinking. Yeah, exactly.
So but the danger there is that. That or danger?
Well, yeah, maybe you call it the danger, but that a paradigm
becomes an ideology, right. I mean, if we look at how, you
know, for for the dimension of economics that touches Bitcoin,
we live in a world where there's not really a challenge of the
paradigm, the economic paradigm that we live in, right?
And for lots of people that lead economics in our world it, it
became more of an ideology than a continuous kind of like
exploration of how can we improve, right.
So I've, I think you mentioned something like ideologies are
becoming redundant. How how do you put that in, you
know, a few on economics and then you know especially your
your angle comes from Austrian economics.
Can you share a bit about that? I think to use Austrian
economics as a as a way to describe economics, you're
looking for an epistemological basis for every thought you have
about it. You want to at least verify with
logic whatever you find to be to be true and then incorporate it
in how you can describe what economy is.
And I think Ludwig for Mises explains this perfectly in his
book Human Action. And I think if you don't do this
then you create an ideology. And an ideology is is something
that is per different per definition, not necessarily
true. It it actually requires some
fiction. Otherwise it isn't ideology.
But the danger isn't in there being an ideology.
The danger is in basing the the outcome, the goal of your
understanding what you're looking for, basing it on, on an
ideology, because that becomes a bias then for whatever happens
after that. And I think this is what
happened to modern economics and just neglecting research done by
other economists, and I think by by that becoming an ideology and
then claiming it isn't also didn't really help achieving any
real understanding of the of the actual reality that that economy
is. Hey there.
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this journey. Now back to the conversation.
Yeah. But like where we live in now,
you see that based on certain ideology around economics,
certain policy is created, I would agree in a biased way,
right. They they write the policy to
eventually achieve you know basically only the one goal of
the of the ideology they follow. But you've stated before and I
love that that like and I think that's from Mises to write about
human action, that human action always adjusts and continues
regardless of the policy, right. So these ideologues, they create
policy to influence human behavior.
But you state that the people will always find a way around
it. And how?
Like, I wanted to ask you, like, how do you, how do you see that
in the current state of economics?
Like when? Now that I'm saying this, I'm
thinking about stuff like prohibition.
You know, that's maybe a bit more classic, right?
But there's always, there's always people that do not adjust
their behavior based on a certain rule, and there's people
that do. So why?
Why do you think there there will always be more people that
will actually not adjust that the human action actually always
Trump's the policies? I think it it's just because
human action is is a phenomenon and if you change the conditions
for that phenomenon, it doesn't, it doesn't change the phenomenon
itself, it it changes the outcome of it.
So if you forbid somebody to do something, then they're going to
look for a way to achieve a better situation for themselves
in a different way. And they're going to look for
the thing that isn't forbidden anymore or they're going to risk
the the, the, the crime. That's what you see in the war
on drugs. But for example, people take
drugs. There's no way to stop people
from taking drugs. One in four people in the in the
United States uses cocaine. That's that's a given fact.
And they they will use cocaine no matter what the punishment
is. And having a policy like a ban
on drugs, I think it's idiotic because you you don't change
anything about the the desire of people and the and the economic
choices that they make. What you do create is is a is a
system that allows criminality to exist.
If you want to get rid of the criminality then you you have to
accept the fact that people take drugs and they desire to do so
no matter what. And I see even easier policy and
that is to make money on drugs. The the United States could
potentially make a lot of money on taxing the industry but they
don't. They spent a lot of public money
on the war on drugs and it's just all wasted.
So why don't more people think like this?
I'm thinking about you explain the paradigm like a lots of
people live in a paradigm or they follow a paradigm, right.
That kind of helps them structure their life and actions
etcetera. I think you know if you if
people listen to this now and they hear you say well people
just use drugs, right? And I can imagine some people
say, yeah, but drugs, drugs are bad.
I'm OK like that. But it's interesting because I I
feel that for example with this this topic, right, you can well,
you can feel like multiple things are true at the same
time, right? Like, I agree, human human
action will like that will never go away, right?
Like the need of people to do what they or the want of people
to do what they want to do or circumvent certain rules created
by just other people, right? Like why would these other
people know better than me what to do with my life?
Like I agree with that. But also, I do agree with, for
example, in in, let's say the drugs topic, right?
If you completely legalize drugs, there will be more people
that do drugs and not everyone should do drugs.
You know, like whatever, whatever drugs were you talking?
About do we? Do we know that for sure?
I I mean that's a that's a good reply.
I mean more like, I don't know kind of following this idea of
like the fact that you can doesn't mean you should or
something right Like and it's kind of ties into how?
There are more side effects. How can you of?
The War on drugs, So for example, illegal St. drugs
create a situation where somebody goes looking for weed
and they they go to a street dealer.
The street dealer doesn't only have weed in his pocket, he also
has some fentanyl. He also has some Oxycontin.
He also has some some GHP. Whatever.
Whatever the dealer carries is for sale, and people who are
tempted to try different things will eventually try it sooner
under the influence of an illegal dealer who is just there
to to scam them out of out of money.
I mean the ethics of a street dealer is pretty questionable.
So the the side effect of St. dealing is hazardous to the to
the user of the drugs. And this is, this is one of the
reasons that in the in the late 70s and early 80s in the
Netherlands coffee shops became allowed.
And this is because the the the guys who went to Nepal and came
back with a big slap of of hash, they also had heroin and it kind
of looks the same. So they would just sell it in
the streets to whoever uses wanted to buy it.
And this is this is how heroin became popular as a as a drug,
as a recreational drug in in those days.
And there were dealers who did have an idea how to conduct this
more safely. And they just started talk
talking with the governing bodies about potentially
creating shops that would just sell weed because weed is sort
of harmless and and hashis and because it's just THC and some
CBD and and it's it's not as impactful on your health and on
your on on your mental health and your further productivity as
heroin is. So the course that the Dutch
government took with that by allowing it and and working
together with people who sell drugs to at least allow weed and
hushies, I think is a very sane reaction to the availability of
of of several kinds of drugs that had extremely different
outcomes on on behaviour of people.
And I think people aren't looking to use heroin per
southeast, but if they are tempted to then there is a
higher chance of them actually trying it.
And of course it's it's pretty addictive so.
Yeah, yeah, I'm thinking about where to, where to go with this.
I think I started this with like, you know, multiple things
can be true because now that you're talking, I think about,
you know, like of course alcohol is legalized.
And I mean we could have a conversation about that Alcohol
is probably worse than smoking weed from from time to time,
right. But it's just so normalized that
you know, and there's a lobby of course.
So if if, if there would be like a complete legalization of
drugs, there would be some sort of lobby fight with the alcohol
industry and tobacco for sure. So and and as you said like not
people are not necessarily looking for heroin etcetera, but
I feel like it's kind of and that's why I talked about the
paradigm part. Like you you just said in the
beginning, you know paradigms are essential for exploring
ideas, right. But if you if you want to
explore ideas doesn't mean you can, right, Like you have to be
able to open your mind to a certain degree and park some of
the thoughts or the beliefs you have in order to also explore
new ideas, right. And I in my opinion, that's a
very conscious action, right? You you consciously search for
things that challenge your beliefs and thoughts to see what
you can learn from that. And I don't, I I think that not
everyone can do that, which is OK, right?
But then, you know, if you would open up for for example, like
all the drugs to to just be bought legally, that's kind of
my point. More like I don't think everyone
can actually be responsible, responsible, but perhaps this is
also something we we touch, we touch upon later.
But I feel like it's kind of, you know, the taking the
responsibility to consciously think about what do I spend my
time on or what drugs do I want to take or which book do I want
to read. I I don't think that's very
different from each other. Does that make sense?
Like what what you do, basically what what you spend your time on
or what action you take. So that's why I said like
multiple things can be true at the same time.
Like I agree with less policy and let people just do it.
But there is there are people that cannot handle that
responsibility. Well, I think in the in in
understanding human action, what that means is you have to make
the decision to to, you have to make the sane decision to stick
to sanity and to understand that if you want to implement a
policy you you need also to have an, you have to create a policy
that is enforceable. You can't.
Implement a policy that isn't
enforceable. It's just not it's it's insane.
So as soon as you discover that something is not enforceable,
you need to stop with the policy and then you need to figure
something else out and and you can find something.
Maybe there's a policy with drugs that does work, but
prohibition in this case has turned out to be a complete
disaster. I mean utter disaster for out of
all my American friends, everybody I know in in the
States, and this is hundreds of people, everybody, they out of
everybody they know there are people who died from overdoses.
And for me as a Dutch guy, this is unheard of.
I don't know anybody in the Netherlands who has ODD on
anything at all. I agree.
Me. Me neither.
No. Yeah.
So. It's, it's just.
Completely nuts. Yeah.
I think that's a great illustration by the way, where I
mean I think the the drug laws in the Netherlands are are
flawed, right. It's like a real Dutch solution
to this, like how they approach it now.
But it's still better than total crackdown on it.
I agree that that's already what you see with with this
illustration of do you know anyone who Od'd and died like
yeah, I don't know anyone either.
So I think I think that's a fairpoint.
So when you talk about or when people in Bitcoin especially,
you know, talk about Austrian economics, how, how does the
approach in Austrian economics help us in understanding like
those limitations of policy that you just mentioned?
I mean, you read way more about this than than I did, but I'd
love to get like an insight on how how does Austrian economics
approach this specific part. Well, it explains a lot about
what what is going wrong and it's it also explains how how to
fix it. But that's only through a hard
money standard. That's the reason why I became
so interested in it. I I got bitten by the Bitcoin
bug hard, as many, many of us were.
And I I thought there has to be some way to understand more more
about the consequences of Bitcoin.
And I think much good has been been said about this.
I've recently read Knut's Van Holm's Praxeology was a really
good book. It's a very, very good
introduction to human action to, I mean praxeology human action.
But I I think not many people who own Bitcoin currently are
aware of the of the topic and the and the broader consequences
of it. How the incentives of of people
change on a on a different money standard and it is being
hammered on constantly. But I still think by the way
people react to one another on Noster, for example in in
exchange of messages, there's there's still too much.
Sticking to the old mentality of having a high time preference
and not understanding that you can, you can now finally let go.
So what's the core of that? You'd say?
Like, what's the thing that people don't understand then
yet? I think that that they're still
selling their time and because they're still selling their time
in a way that is eroded by the system that's paying them out,
they they don't open their eyes for the the thing they should be
really doing. And many, many are doing it or
or halfway doing it or or for 90% doing it.
But still, lots of the old paradigm lingers in in the minds
of of many bitcoiners still, and I think it's just a matter of
time that this this just evolves towards a better understanding
of how to spend time efficiently and how to really master time
preference to make. Yeah, that's what I actually
wanted to say. I think if if if you would want
more people to move into this harder money, right, quicker
than that is of course a sign of high time preference, right?
We cannot. I think this is an interesting
subject because I think especially on Twitter and I know
Twitter, especially for us or Noster you know it's a real
bubble. We are at the forefront of of
this new thing. But I feel lots of people expect
way too much in way too little time, right?
They they want so many things to happen in a short period of
time, right? Their expectations are are are
way too high and I think we cannot expect me people to to
move to this new money very quickly in whatever way, right?
Like whether you sell your fee of currency for Bitcoin or you
start taking a job in Bitcoin or selling your product products or
services in Bitcoin, whatever that is for for someone right.
It it, it just takes time and I don't know how that is for you,
but I feel like that is also part of the personal challenge
for us. Like we already see this and we
want this to exist. And we know that a world on a
hard money will become super abundant and people will
actually do what they would, what they would love to do,
right in terms of job or or ventures or or whatever.
But it just doesn't change this fast because the paradigm that
we're battling right is very strong and most people don't
actually realize that they are operating in a certain system
that they just don't understand. So yeah, I just feel like we
should also temper our own time preference in that sense.
I think it's also because even though Bitcoin is focused on the
cyclical nature of Bitcoin all the time, they just do it to
watch price action and all the models are about price action
and I think price action is is interesting because it shows
what you then can do with it. And I think the the, the
cycling, cyclical nature of Bitcoin that I'm that I'm now
mostly interested in is what capital.
Capital is freed by the price action of Bitcoin.
So with every cycle the price goes up and then the budget of
people, us bitcoiners, becomes enormous.
So imagine going from having invested 100,000 in in in
Bitcoin a couple years ago and and then by that owning 2020
Bitcoin, you now have more than 20 of it.
You have now more than 10 times as as much.
And all this, all this money is now giving you a feeling of
safety and you're just smiling all day.
And this is, this is real capital.
It's real money. This is not, this is not
something that you became owner of because you leveraged into
debt. So it's not like you own 20
houses and only percentage of that is, is yours, and your
stream of income pays somebody else's stream of income.
No, this is Bitcoin. It's it's true.
It's hardness and it's it's in your possession and you can do
with it what you what you want. But now fast, Fast forward
another cycle and it it 10X again.
Then all of the sudden your lifestyle changes because you
now no longer need to work. You have you have 5015 million
and you don't know what to spend it on but you do have ideals.
Not you're you're not an idealogue.
You have come to see that Bitcoin really works.
You're an idealist. You you understand the the value
propositions of Bitcoin and now with that you can also invest
back into Bitcoin and you have every incentive to do so.
And what is your budget. It's it's literally the the
magic Internet money and now because you have $15 million,
you have 55 million to spend without there a need to be a
return because the return is already in in the Bitcoin that
you have. It's already it's already that
valuable. So this happens every cycle and
the the people who are in Bitcoin now for and have been
for a long time, they have every incentive to invest back into
Bitcoin. You see this with with Jeff
Booth coming to the realization that he is holding on to to
something which is not just an idea not just not just a wealth
that it that it brought, but but it's a it's a holistic thing
too. Bitcoin gave him a certain
freedom and he wants to give back to the community also.
And you see that he starts to spend his time in a certain way
so that as he calls it himself, he is no longer an hip, a
hypocrite. He is contributing to the
development of Bitcoin in the in the in the way he thinks is
best. And when we were at Bitcoin
Atlantis in Madeira, we saw Michael Saylor in his speech,
and he announced there to the public that MicroStrategy is no
longer just a Bitcoin investment company, it's a Bitcoin
development company. And the reason that he says this
is, is that he has every incentive to invest capital into
Bitcoin development, because the more he makes the ecosystem who
who more. The more value he creates for
the ecosystem, the more it also returns to the value that he
holds. So a certain fall off percentage
of acquired wealth can go to just distributing it to to
people who are building for him, creating creating a better
ecosystem. And he doesn't even need to own
it because everything that happens in the ecosystem is
better better for him. So he's every every incentive to
to give give a loan to a certain small company a start up that
that is is developing E cash on Bitcoin or a new a new kind of
wallet that does some something that is just more seamless in
integration or what whatever whatever you can think of or a
mining company for that matter, no.
I think there's also a really big shift in, you know, Fiat
economy or a Fiat world is kind of like a 0 sum game, right?
When I win, you lose. And a Bitcoin world is a
mutually beneficial game, basically.
So exactly like you like you said, right?
Like. We both play.
We both. Play.
Yeah, exactly. And that's also sometimes what I
see when I try to like bears true, like negative, negative
views on Bitcoin, right. People think it's too good to be
true basically, right? Like that they in a sense can
save themselves, right? Or actually build towards future
or be that lucky that we are living at this moment and in
time where a new money is being monetized that you know that
that that can actually be given to you in some sense, right.
And I think I talked about this a lot before but I think the the
conversation I had with the Eric case and really stands out like
it's a very nihilistic worldview, right.
The the 0 sum game type thing it's very negative like very
very very negative. And also it it doesn't give
people of course because it's nihilistic but like a positive
outlook on the future. I don't I I to be honest I don't
know a lot of people especially outside of the Bitcoin I know
that have a really positive outlook on the on the future you
know like it's pretty nihilistic.
I and I shared this I think a few episodes back.
But like I talked to a guy, RH, super smart guy, CTO of company,
and he totally understood like all the flaws of Fiat money
understands how Bitcoin works, but he still thinks it's not
going to work, you know, because it will be corrupted or
whatever. And then I asked him like, hey,
do you have children? And he said no, this is also the
reason I don't have children. And it was really like the first
time I had like a one-on-one personal conversation with
someone. Like I know these thoughts
exist. You know, like people, some
people think this, but like, that was really the first time I
had personal contact with someone who actually saw the
world like that. And it just, it really hit me.
Like, I thought it was so sad in a way.
And I also asked him, like, you know, with all due respect, but
like, like does this mean you gave up?
Like is this just it? And then he said, yeah I just, I
don't know I couldn't wrap my head around it's it's so far
away from how I view the world like I'm realistic in what's
going on but I'm and and that is not very positive right.
But I I do have a positive outlook towards the future but
that's probably because I understand or see Bitcoin.
I think that's the main reason. But I don't know it's just hard
to see that in other people especially like our age like
same you know like a millennial age.
Yeah, you're really building out your life.
And then this is your outlook. I don't know, like what?
What? Do you see this too?
Or what? What?
What are your thoughts there? Well, I'm I'm an optimist and I
would have never given up, but I have encountered people who are
less optimistic than I am, and I think I am more than average
optimist. But I think it's it.
It has to do more with people's individual traits and whether
they adhere to a positive world view.
I know mankind is is not doomed to fail as a as a as a product
of this universe wanting to get to know itself through our eyes
and that's that's something that I see because because I see what
people choose to do and I I see the good more than the bad.
But my my father was a a nihilist and he he tried to
battle it by becoming a supporter of of policies and
this is also why why I'm so adamant about this he he
believed he truly believed in globalism for the better of
mankind and and just coercion towards teaching people to make
better decisions. And I I knew this this was wrong
even before I understood what Bitcoin could do.
But yeah, I'll I will always have a positive view of the
future, just because of how I how I see the world and what
kind of person I am. It's interesting when you share
that. I think like that that is
already a pretty nihilistic thought, right?
Like teach other people how it should be done.
It's actually, yeah, it's actually very negative.
But about it does tie in with what I said before, like I don't
think everyone can make the right decision, right, when it
comes to drugs. So there, you know, if I reflect
on myself, I think there's also a bit of that in there.
When I said it kind of disguised as something that sounds caring,
interesting, I don't know, I'm just reflecting on, reflecting
on that. But yeah, like I, I, I, I agree.
I have to think about that for myself.
But I agree with, you know, if you think like, oh, I know how
this works and I'm going to write and support policy to
coerce other people into changing their behavior, like
that sounds horrible actually, actually.
Because what gives other people third, you know, third parties,
the authority to influence your life decisions, which is
basically, what do you spend your time on, right?
Or what do you spend your mind energy, your mental energy,
mental energy on? But like, how do you think,
like, how, how did we get here? I also wanted to ask you about
you know like LSD experience, like insights into how how you
view life. You just mentioned about the
universe. What you sent to me is the
universe is a self aware, is self aware through our
perception. I love that.
But like how? How did that help you understand
basically life or what what people do in their life?
Before I ever took LSD, I I studied cognitive science and
learning about the the functions of our brain.
And trying to understand what brain activity is, what
consciousness is, what learning is, gave me as a broad basis for
what? For understanding what LSD does
to your mind. And what LSD then showed me was
that actually everything is vibrations and our our brain
perceives only vibrations and enhancing this perception to
become more sensitive to these vibrations and their resonances
their their interference they they create to see all those
patterns Where interference is their synergy of of waves is
gave me the understanding that that if this is all we can
perceive then that is our that that's the only thing we'll
learn about our reality and and maybe you can have more insights
about what the what our reality is but you the the basis of it
is that everything is is vibrations because that's all we
can perceive. And one of the things that I
that I concluded from that also is that if if you want to know
what what time is, you have to understand how we perceive and
time isn't something that we perceive.
We have memories, we have retention of everything.
It happens that happens. And we do this chronologically
and this is through through retention and perceiving
memories is actually the creating the perception of time.
Interesting. Yeah.
I like to, I like, I like to think about the concept of time.
Because everything was always now, right?
Just like the memory. The memory at that moment when
it happened was was the now. But when you package it in the
memory, you and you and you and like you said you, you put it in
in time, I think it's kind of distorts.
It also distorts, distorts, distorts, distorts.
It also in a sense, what what are like the things that you
took away from those experiences, like how how did
you integrate them into your life, or your current views on
economics, for example, or your work.
I don't well, I don't know how how this integrates with
economics necessarily, but. Or like the human action that we
talked about. I think we have certain ideas
about what facts are, and many of them aren't really facts at
all. People just tend to believe a
certain consensus and people are susceptible to this and they
create a reality or a world view that's based on this ideology
that they built together. And I'm, I'm just not.
I'm never going to stop there. I'm I'm never going to accept a
certain way. Things are just because people
who call themselves experts say that it is so.
I will always want to know what the background is before this
knowledge to want to exist in books.
I'll always ask questions about it.
I'll always want to scrutinize the the ideas and and what I'm
searching for is the is the bias behind it.
Most. Most ideas have a researcher's
bias and that I think it's important for anyone who wants
to understand anything to realize that everything is
biased all the time. And you have.
You have to keep looking for the for this phenomenon in in your
work, in your thoughts, and LSD helps to pull you out of
fixations of ideas and show you something that is completely
different. For me, it really felt as though
I was finally out of the fishbowl.
I had been swimming around perfectly happy in this fishbowl
and I had my plants and my my my gravel.
And I saw, I saw the glass and I thought it's it's marvelous
there there, there must be something, something out there.
And I took LSD and for the first time I I held the the fishbowl
in my hands and this. This is also why I encourage
people to be interested in this. If even though that not
everybody is, not everybody should do it.
Still something to be careful with.
Most people don't really take it well when they have memory
impairment and this is this is something that people think is
very, very scary most of the time.
If you take a lot of LSD or or a psilocybin, there's there's a
possibility that you you become memory impaired and you lose all
sense of time and the trip just is perceived to last forever.
Because because your function of memory fails, then your sense of
time fails and then you're you're stuck in a sort of a a
hole. And if you don't know yourself
well enough and you have some demons that that have been
haunting you even though you've never really met them or
acknowledged them, then you can. You can be in for a very painful
trip, but it ends and people can get over those traumas and try
try again. And I think that most people
we'll have a good time and really learn beautiful things
about themselves, about reality, even if they just do it
recreationally. I've never considered taking LSD
as a recreational phenomenon. I've I've always done it with
spirituality in mind, with self development in mind.
I've always set this intention and I think set and setting in
in in LSD, the way there you can be conscious of what you get
into and what circumstances you are under matters matters a lot.
I think Paul, Paul Stamets talks a lot about that.
Yeah. Michael, Michael Pollan, I read
his book and I think he's summarized it well also.
Yeah. Yeah.
I love the fishbowl example. I think what you eventually
learn is that you are not the subject, you are the observer
watching the subject basically. And that you know if you can
look at the fishable that you what you think is you, right
your your body and your name and where you're from and all these
things you know that is what we ascribe as to the you or what
you are. But if you are the observer, the
self, then you observe what what is the subject.
And then once you realize that you know I, I, I love the
example of you know if the voice in your head is talking, then
who is listening, right? You are not talking and
listening at the at the same time.
You are listening to the voice. You are the listener.
You're the observer. But yeah, I agree.
I think I think that takes work to kind of like get there and be
open for that. But I was also thinking when you
talk about talked about consensus, right, like the
consensus is also in a sense the bias, right?
If you agree with a consensus without scrutinizing it in a
way, right? Or researching it in a way or
questioning it in a way and you just follow it, which is the
easiest, easiest thing to do, basically.
Because you know when you scrutinize the consensus, you
also scrutinize your own faults and beliefs about something.
And that's and that is hard for a lot of people.
That's a problem I have with the the mechanist materialist
paradigm that is currently the bias in science.
It's just blinding scientists to open their eyes to what I think
is a far more encompassing and understanding paradigm, which is
the acoustic paradigm. I see myself and my my central
nervous system as an acoustic instrument and with that I have
a, a, a a a paradigm that is extremely different, that
diverges from from the mechanistic paradigm that allows
to understand certain phenomena. For example placebo effect is
something that is is you can't explain it with the mechanist
paradigm and also the integration of what what
strength theory is trying to do the integration of office of
physics laws into into one encompassing theory.
I think it's impossible from the mechanistic paradigm and I I
think the problem with the mechanist paradigm is for
example this is something that Rupert Sheldrake has has written
a lot about. He's dedicated his life to this
and and I think it's it's beautiful the way he describes
it. The the mechanist paradigm is
determining for science that nature itself and the laws of
nature are are are fixed and can't evolve also.
And just assuming this for whatever science discovers
through research is just such a short minded vision of what
you're what you're trying to accomplish.
Because what you're trying to accomplish is is not to rule out
where you're what you're going to find out.
You need to have a framework that allows for more
possibilities. Because the the, the you don't
know what the outcome of your research is.
You have to you have to have an as an as open an eye as possible
to to also be able to recognize when you have discovered
something. I'm reading.
I'm reading this book by Gary Gary Klein now and he he calls
it he calls it stacks. Stacks of ideas that lead to the
discovery of new new ideas. I kind of like that in a sense
this this is this the rabbit hole I'm in now I'm I'm I'm
finding out more about Bitcoin mining and I'm I I spoke to
somebody who works in in the power sector and that person
said that 2020 gigawatts of power which is the total mining
capacity of of the world of of of all of Bitcoin mining is
minute, she called it. Compared to compared to energy
consumption. Yeah.
But not just that compared to what a typical energy company
has in consumption. Yeah, and at at first it it kind
of scared me. But then I and then I realized
something that I now with Gary Klein's idea of stacks can can
sort of articulate better. Bitcoin is already a niche.
There are very few people who understand Bitcoin.
And once you do, you become adamant and you start explaining
it to people and to yourself better and better.
But then there's Bitcoin mining, and that's the niche within the
niche, and there are very few bitcoiners who understand what a
an opportunity it is to be in mining and also what kind of
responsibility it brings. And I see it as the the
responsibility to to revolutionize the energy sector
because the energy sector sector is one of the most wasteful
wasteful industries one of the most wasteful products of
mankind ever to just because of low demand just throw away a a
large percentage of your production just because there's
there's no incentive and and no, no we no way to fix this
inefficiency and Bitcoin, Bitcoin mining really does fix
this inefficiency. Yeah.
What about this? Sorry.
Like when you say about stacking ideas, I think it does come from
kind of like first principle type thinking or I think it's
also a bit spiritual in a sense. Like like for me, I at one point
just adopted. I saw someone say like once you
know that you don't know everything, right, Then the
world opens up, you know it's and and kind of like combined
with you know, everybody's winging it and nobody knows what
they're doing. Like that is really true, right?
We are all trying to figure it out, whatever it is, right.
Like how however you, however you define it and I and and I, I
still try to wrap my head around what what is that right?
Because it is actually. It's also human action.
It's it's it's something. It's a hard decision.
It's a hard decision because if the world opens up, right,
that's a lot of information. That's a lot of things to think
about, right? That's a lot of things to
consider to constantly. I think it's also one of the
things you sent to me, right? But like, you know, sometimes
you have rational thoughts, you have ideas, but you're always
open, like you're never married to them because you know that
you don't know everything, right?
And you and I also, we we enjoy doing that.
It's enjoyable, right? And it gives us a certain energy
and fulfilment in a sense. But lots of people are not like
this and not to criticize, not at all.
But it's just like not not a lot of people are like are like
that. And these are the people that
yeah, basically get abused or they get put in this paradigm
right or they agree with the consensus and then they, you
know never have to think again. Maybe that's a bit short
sighted, but like they don't have to think for themselves,
right? Other people think, think for
them. And when you were talking about
science, one of the things I had to think about, and I loved that
I heard Bernardo you know Bernardo Kostrope?
No. I think he is a physicist, but
also like I don't know if it's into string theory or whatever,
but he had he studied like Adams and eventually I I heard an
interview with him but he ended up at same conclusion as that.
You know, Eastern philosophers already ended up, you know, like
everything has a consciousness, everything is conscious,
etcetera. But he talked about like how how
science is conducted that it's it's a bit flawed because and he
used this term like we follow observation is creation.
And then he had the example of Darwin sitting on his boat.
You know, he's observing, I don't know, certain types of
birds, whatever for two weeks. And he sees what they do.
And then he creates a law, a nature law or a model, you know,
like this. Yeah.
Theory. He talks about, you know, we
know a lot of laws of nature, but we don't know why they exist
like that. And the why they exist like that
is a way more interesting question than just stating what
you have observed, right. Like, OK, but why is it like
that? I'm always, you know, I have
this plant in the background like I and I just got like a new
leaf. I'm always fascinated like how
does the plant know how it should grow.
You know, like it's weird. So I can observe the plant and
how it grows, but it's still like why?
How was this plant programmed to grow like this?
Like how to. I don't know if you see it on
the video of people are watching, but it's like this
Trelicia big plant. And you have like a huge leaf,
almost a meter, and it's all like all rolled up and it grows
and then, you know, it opens up. And I'm with every leaf.
I'm just fascinated, like, how, how does this work?
Right. And this is kind of what he
talks about. Like we can be like, oh, this
plant grows like this. Yeah.
But the question is why? You know?
And the why is definitely not answered.
And we don't know anything about the why not a not a lot, right?
And so he talks about yeah that's also because the the why
is from reason and reason is human.
It's a it's a human phenomenon and we don't know whether the
universe itself also reasons we it's an assumption but it's an
assumption either. Either way, so if if the if if
the if the universe and all all matter in the universe has
purpose or not, If you decide either one is true for for your
work then that. That sets it and then you're
limiting yourself. So I I think a why question is
is point is interesting, but I think the if if you if you
notice that you can't really answer it truth truthfully or if
if you can't really find something that's meaningful
about asking the why why question.
The how question is also interesting and just to
understand the phenomenon from a from a different viewpoint.
Instead of reason just just to be able to observe without
evaluation and and to try to connect everything that is
happening and to understand the the process from what it's what
it produces and and then later you can you can bring the why
question back again and then and then see oh oh so maybe the
process was way longer than I thought and and now now I'm I
might be able to answer the the why question too.
Yeah, good point. I I think what I tried to say
was more like the if we end on the consensus of, you know, this
is a nature's law, whatever, then we also like stop thinking
further, right? And I think that's what I liked
in his point is like, OK, you can identify how something works
but not why it works like that, right.
So you cannot be so rigid as some people are about saying
something like this is how XYZ works and that is just it,
right? That that cannot be, that cannot
be the consensus, because there's there's something behind
that. As to the why, and you don't
necessarily have to answer the why, I agree.
But if you can agree that that stated truth or that stated
consensus is not the the final understanding, that's when you
keep an open mind to to keep exploring.
You know whatever could be different in not only
information, but also you know, the actions that that you can
take in, you know, whatever, whatever, whatever context.
But that there's also something I wanted to ask you about alike
that you describe Bitcoin as human potential energy, Can you
expand on the metaphor like how how can people understand what
you mean with that? Well, I I heard somebody say
Bitcoin is stored energy and I thought, no, that's that's
that's wrong because you can take that literally.
It is a human potential energy is because that that is exactly
what it represents. You can exchange it for you.
You can you can exchange it for somebody doing something for you
and you can describe what value that has for for for you or
somebody else can do it and can describe it and then you find
you find it as a as a payment you it it becomes the
representation of of of human energy and I like to say it's a
it's human potential energy because it it's also all the
energy that hasn't been spent yet So you have in your but with
the Bitcoin you own you have something that you can exchange
for something that needs to happen in the future.
Yeah. So it's it's a potential.
Well, it's basically what money should be.
Exactly, yeah. Yeah, but I, I, I I agree with
it. I think it is.
When I own it, it's like human potential energy.
I talked about this before, but like I I once heard like
everything you see around you, like literally everything you
see like costs energy to create or maintain either by other
people. No.
Or I'm looking at a tree, you know, that's the sun, the water,
etcetera, right? Like everything costs energy to
create. But and so like that's kind of
how I see you know with money to exchange between two parties if
I do something for you and you give me you know quote UN quote
money in return the energy that I expended, you know, in the
exchange that that that we have, well, you built houses before,
right. So, you know, if you build a
house and you use wood and you expend your time and energy and
I pay you in, you know, whatever the money is, then it is stored
energy right at that moment. I do see it as stored energy.
Well, or it was my, you know, how did you say, what did you
say, The human potential energy that I'm giving, I'm giving to
you. So yeah, I I like human
potential energy or stored energy, but that is what it
actually should be, right? Because then when I when you
receive that money and you want to spend it on something else,
on on anything else that cost energy to create or maintain,
then that is what actually money should be, at least in my
understanding. Or well, maybe it's opinion, but
I think we agree on on that. Let's call it an opinion, but
because definitely not everyone agrees in this world.
But yeah, it's just that, right? It's exchanging energy all the
time and it and at the moment that we make an exchange you say
you know takes two months to build a house and these these
are the materials I'm going to use etcetera.
It's X amount of units of XYZ money.
Then at that moment we have an equal exchange and it's it
should stay equal, right? Because you put all the energy
in the house and I should reward you in money.
That's also represents that same amount of energy and that it
keeps that amount of energy towards the future for whenever
you want to spend it on other human potential.
That's and that's why real estate isn't money and gold is
Gold doesn't have a a upkeep and a house has a upkeep.
Yeah, so if you exchange money for a house, then you're not
getting human potential energy. You've, you've you, you get
human. Spent energy or your house
leaked energy if something broke that was built before.
Yeah. Then it kind of leaked energy
and you have to to put that that energy back basically.
Yeah. So how, how do you think you
know your view on Bitcoin? How?
How does it? What are the implications on how
it can change the economy compared to how we use, well,
the money that we are forced to use now?
Well, I think what isn't being talked about enough is
efficiency and I I want to change that.
I want to start a mining company and talk about efficiency.
Efficiency is one of the one of my focal focal points in in
life. And I've noticed by having an
efficiency mindset I've been able to be more productive than
other other people. And I'm noticing with Bitcoin
that there is less loss of energy because people's
understand the the value when they transact it and they
understand that it it takes something of quality to be to
convince somebody to spend spend it on something.
And it isn't like it's it isn't like the way Fiat behaves it's
more like a like a flow. It's something that is
constantly exchanged and it doesn't it doesn't allow for
efficiency. It'll it.
It allows for a margin to be chased, margin to to fall off of
production. And I think Bitcoin is something
that changes people's choices so that people become aware of what
whatever they're wasting and especially time.
So it starts with time and then all all other forms of energy
that they that they have. So waste productivity is your
incentivize to use the to recapture your your waste
whether it's energy or things that have cost energy to
produce. I think it's.
I think it's about understanding the mindset of efficiency and I
think once people really understand this that just a
whole new way of develop developing starts to exist for
people. And I think this is the the sort
of next renaissance that bitcoiners predict.
And I think it's because of efficiency that people get the
the idea that things can be can be done better and more
efficiently. Yeah, I think how?
Like how I think about it is the most inefficient thing people
are doing now is trading their finite time or finite energy
expenditure in time for a reward that can be created infinitely.
Right? The fact that when you have a
job or a venture and you expend time and energy to get rewarded
when you come home and you understand that your reward is
being devalued every year, that you have to mitigate that risk
in some sense. So even take more risk right
next to the risk you take with your job or your venture.
The fact that you have to medicate that is already a very
inefficient thing. So you have you have to spend
even more time and energy to protect time and energy that you
already spent. You know it's it's like just
just only that situation I think is something that I really think
about and also want to be more vocal or coherent about to show
people like this is what you're already doing.
And yeah, I agree with that, Like once you can be rewarded in
the hardest money to ever exist, then you also have to do more.
You you have to put in more effort or be better at what you
do to actually be eligible to receive that reward, right.
Because the people that will pay you know that this is the
hardest money to ever exist and so they are looking for real
value. So I think it will help people
to actually discover what it is that they are meant to be
contributing to to society. You know, whatever that is from
being a doctor to baking bread or whatever, like doesn't really
matter. Everyone has his function, his
or her function in in society. I also believe that if we have a
better reward for the human action, then the human action
will be more efficient and more valuable because of that.
Yeah, people just tend to tend to make choices.
Individual choices that lead to collective choices that create
abundance and innovation. It's just when when considering
time, I see so many people just make the mistake of going for
security, which is a false representation of of efficiency
and what people do to negate what people do to battle their
their fears and to choose for what they see as security.
For example, getting a job. For me, getting getting a job
was never, never an option because I I understood that it
was a complete sell off of my time.
And I understood the the moment I was supposed to go work,
become productive, that I had only two choices.
One was do nothing and be happy with nothing or become
productive myself and embrace the insecurity that it gives.
But the the security that a job gives you is a false sense of
security because there's nothing secure about a job right now.
Billions of people have are so incorporated in their security
system of working, working for a steady stream of income and
having saved for a pension. But they don't know what keeps
that into place and they have no guarantees because this this
system can can collapse and the result is that you've worked for
nothing all your life and even somebody at the end of their
career in in the Netherlands for example if you if you die and
you've saved all your career then you've not only paid 30 to
50% taxes. So let's let's say you're you've
been, you've been well off and you've had a really good job in
the Netherlands. You've been paid, you've been
paying 50% taxes for for all all your career.
That's 50% gone. And you have no say of what what
the government does with that money.
And then 40% of that over for 40 year period is also gone because
of inflation. And then your son or daughter
inherits your savings and then the state takes another 18%.
Yeah, so whatever whatever security you went for was
immediately and you could calculate this beforehand.
You already know that if you start start doing this, then
you're wasting 1st 50, then then 40 and and then another 18% of
your savings is is going to be gone and and then you.
You haven't even accounted for what might go wrong in your life
that that the money then would be spent on.
So what are you giving your children?
It's just a lot of wasted, a lot of wasted energy.
And most most parents who make this decision consciously, out
of a sense false sense of security are not only spending
their own time, they're also spending the time they they
could spend on their kids. So this is also something that
I'm the conscious decision that I made.
I wanted to be there for my son. He needs to.
He needs to have me in his life. He needs to have me around in
his life. And I can't be.
I can't be gone 40 hours a week. I cannot.
I have to be there to pick him up from school.
I have maybe 20-5 hours to completely work on something to
engulf myself in. That's the time.
That's the time he spent at school.
That's the time I have to spend for on work.
Stuff that I believe in. And that doesn't mean that I'm
always in his face when he is free.
No, but I want to be there when he looks up and he has a
question. I want him to find me.
I want him to know where I am so that he can reach me.
Yeah. And I think this time is what
people are deprived of without them making any conscious
decision about it. I see so many of my friends,
they work. They they work.
Both parents work and and they're not even saving.
They're just wager earners going paycheck to paycheck and their
kids are being raised by somebody else.
And this is something I saw when I when I was a lot younger.
I saw it. I saw it before me.
This is where this is where it's going and this is, this is the
thing that I need to battle. This is the thing that I need to
solve for myself and and I feel, I feel strong and affirmed that
I was able to do it even if even in a Fiat economy.
This is the the thing that most investors talk about or most
entrepreneurs talk about. There is still the we still have
the ability to do something of value in this Fiat economy and
to create value and get a really good return for it.
But that is, that is productivity.
And I think it takes a conscious decision to accept that any any
form of security that is given to you and not arranged by
yourself is a is a forfeit is a. It's a false sense of security.
Yeah, that's a very good point. We talked about this a lot on
the podcast, like I call it, outsourcing your responsibility
basically, right. And and that's we do that in
different ways. And of course this podcast is
about Bitcoin and we talk a lot about Bitcoin.
But if you outsource your money basically and how you are
rewarded for spending your time and energy, that is the main
like the root cause of everything that comes after
that, right. Any decision in your life where
to live, build a family and you know.
Job, venture, whatever that is. That is what influences the the
rest of what what people do in their life.
So how how do you see like the whole CBDC idea you sent me, CBD
CS are a Ledger. That's it.
No room for commercial banks, no distribution of power or
consensus, No democracy. Like how how do you see this
happening? We are of course in Europe.
I see at least in America, some states are like they have some
pushback. Even Jerome Powell said
something about no, no CBDC. So I think it's a different,
different kind of battle over there.
But in Europe it feels like we are going that way.
Although the ECB says this is not a savings vehicle, which I
find interesting because that's one of the characteristics of
money. But yeah, what?
What are your ideas there? So the the difference between
the Fed and the ECB is that the Fed doesn't have a plan for it
yet. They're not open about it at
least and the ECB is, is open about the CBDC.
They're going to forward, they're they're going forward
with it. It's going to be in place.
I think it's late 2026. They all have the digital euro,
but like like every shit coin, if you if you don't solve the
Bitcoin trilemma, then you're either going to end up with
something that is centralized or something that is insecure.
And there's only one balance to do this correctly, and that is
the way Bitcoin, Bitcoin behaves.
So Bitcoin as a protocol is in perfect balance between
scalability, decentralization and and security.
And if you if you want to compromise for one of these
traits to get to scale better, then you get lightning, which
has less security or Liquid that which has less decentralization
or Federated means which are less decentralized.
So those are compromises that you can make and compromises you
can't make on the base layer. That's the whole point of of
having a base layer that is fixed and and there's enough in
incentive to keep this this way. And as long as as long as the
hash rate keeps going up, I have confidence that Bitcoin will
manifest in this way. But a CBDC doesn't have a
balanced answer to the Bitcoin trilemma.
So the CBDC will always be just a central Ledger and if you
understand where the central Ledger is, that is something
completely different from what commercial banks have.
Commercial banks have accounts and that's a decentralized
Ledger. It's not distributed,
decentralized. It's not in a in a beautiful way
decentralized, but there is no central control over what is,
what amount is in which account, and this is also the reason why
it's so, so good for fraud. There are many ways to have your
bookkeeping because it's only double entry bookkeeping to be
done creatively so that your your bookkeeping doesn't have to
match my bookkeeping. So if we if we keep sending each
other invoices with Fiat, there's there's no centralized
way to control who owns what. I can have a different
bookkeeping and that that sort of needs to match and that the
the Dutch tax authority will accept discrepancies and they
will accept it because they have no control over it.
And this is something that a CBDC can can solve.
And this is this is also why the central central bank the ECB
wants wants this. And then another another
consequence of this is if they have a central Ledger and all
the accounts are with the ECB then what is a commercial bank,
It doesn't need to exist anymore.
So what are they, what are they getting rid of?
And I say they central banks, what are central banks getting
rid of at the moment? That's what I think is happening
right now with the higher rates. They're getting rid of
commercial banks and they're not going to bail out the commercial
banks. And that's why I'm I'm also not
conclusive about what the Fed is doing.
I think they have a new secret man mandate and that is to to
get to a point where they have their new world order where they
have their their new money for the for the world which which is
a CBDCA Central, a central Ledger controlled by one one
single authority. And the the problem that happens
is that this is just another policy.
And what what I think is laughable about it is if you do
this and Bitcoin doesn't exist, then you still don't have a
foolproof way to to to treat something like the exchange of
gold. There will always be a search
for people to deal with the economic circumstances that they
wished they had a better store of value or a better means of
exchange to solve the situation they're in.
And if you if you present people with a true worthless money like
a CBDC, the first people to notice are the entrepreneurs and
they're going to stop. They're going to stop asking for
that as a payment. And there is no way to keep this
economy rolling with a CBDC. There's just and, and I say
this, I say this with with certainty, out of conviction.
Maybe, maybe this is an ideology, but I think it isn't.
I think based on empirical evidence of studying money
systems of of the of the past, we can see that there has never
been the installment of a of a of a non backed currency.
And a currency doesn't need intrinsic value, it just needs
to be backed by something when when installed.
And in the case of Bitcoin, it is proof of work and also proof
proof of verification. Yeah, value but.
It's just approvable being provable.
Verifiable. Yeah, so it has.
It has value propositions that match its its value and and CBDC
will not be able to do that for itself.
The the dollar at the moment is decoupled from oil for a large
part in it's in transition to becoming worthless.
And the only thing that keeps the dollar of any value as a
means of exchange is confidence. So at the moment the.
Basically. Well yeah it's it's also just
the people walk around with bills in their pockets or a
number on their bank account and they know.
They know it's redeemable for what what the price tag is.
This is this is confidence. The people have confidence that
their value is stored over at least a long enough time for
them to spend it. But if this changes then the
card, the House of Cards falls and and if you then try to bill
in the people with a CBDC to come in to be the savior of the
economy with the CBDC, it's only a matter of time that the people
don't see that the ball is actually not rolling anymore and
and that's going to be a disaster.
So if they do this, I think it's it's it's going to be disaster.
Yeah. Well I said fear because it's
hard to accept that it that the money is not real, right.
That's what you see in your bank account is not it's not actually
actually there that's kind of why I said fair.
But but yeah it's it's still that trust, right.
But the verifiability I think is the main part and as you said, I
like that about, you know, CBDC is just another another policy,
but you cannot verify it like it's again all talk, no walk,
right, where in Bitcoin. It's the verifiability that at
least gives you more information on making a decision if you
should trust it for you know, your option to save your energy.
And I think that's it like it is.
It is advertised in a certain way, but you can also verify it
for yourself, right? And every other form or type of
money, same as the CBD CS, it's only advertised, right.
When you see people talk about, it's like it's going to be more
inclusive. It's just, you know, cash.
But digital, it's just, it's all talk.
It's it's there's no options to actually verify it and make a
conscious choice whether you should adopt it or not.
And I think that is what Bitcoin constantly shows.
I mean it's the same with the halving, right?
The halving is just like, hey, this is the monetary policy is
advertised. See, it's still working.
I think that is what what it shows, right?
And every four year, every four years, it does.
And that doesn't need marketing, whereas the CBDC is going to be
heavily marketed into exactly into the market it needs to be.
Installed if you have to. I told my son this like we were
sitting in the car and you heard a commercial.
He's like, is it what they say is, is it true what they say?
I said, well, if you have to make advertisement for it,
probably not. You know, that's not totally
true. But I love to instill that.
Like, yeah, well, to to round it up because I have to pick him up
from school. You know, I asked everyone, you
know, what is a core belief you will never let go.
And you already sent me the following.
I don't have a belief or I tried to get rid of beliefs.
Ideology is becoming redundant. I have plausible outcomes and
crazy ideas and I can switch between all that without being
married to any of it. I think we talked about this a
lot already, but I do want to ask you.
There must be something you adhere to or or practice that
you find valuable in your life. I think I could answer that with
my my faith in humans. Even though I can see that
humans have a good in them, I see it in in the way people look
at each other and the way people treat each other.
If they have abundance, they will treat each other really
nicely and I think. But I think if I have an
ideology, it is my faith in mankind.
Great ending. Thanks man.
Last that we finally recorded something.
I will link to your ex profile Noster profile in the show notes
so people can follow you and your thoughts and I think I see
you in a few days. We go for lunch.
Yeah, awesome. Thank you.
Thank you too for talking to me. Awesome man.
Talk soon. See ya.
I hope you enjoyed this episode. If you did, it would be amazing
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Thanks for listening. Bye.