1 00:00:00,520 --> 00:00:03,280 Hey there, it's Tom Gonstein. And in this episode of Bitcoin 2 00:00:03,280 --> 00:00:06,580 for Millennials, I'm joined by Michael Tanguma, who's the Co 3 00:00:06,580 --> 00:00:11,440 founder and CEO of On Ramp. We dive into how Bitcoin, AI and 4 00:00:11,440 --> 00:00:14,880 energy are converging to reshape finance, why corporate and 5 00:00:14,880 --> 00:00:17,920 sovereign adoption could redefine market cycles, and the 6 00:00:17,920 --> 00:00:21,680 importance of first principles thinking in navigating this new 7 00:00:21,760 --> 00:00:23,760 era. Michael shares his market 8 00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:26,800 insights, thoughts on risk, and what's next for Bitcoin as it 9 00:00:26,800 --> 00:00:30,360 enters the global mainstream. This is an exciting conversation 10 00:00:30,360 --> 00:00:33,680 about how to get ready for a crazy technological future. 11 00:00:34,040 --> 00:00:35,880 I hope you enjoy it as much as I did. 12 00:00:36,240 --> 00:00:40,320 And if you do, please subscribe and like on YouTube or follow me 13 00:00:40,320 --> 00:00:43,520 on your favorite podcasting platform that will help me to 14 00:00:43,520 --> 00:00:46,240 spread the message on Bitcoin even further. 15 00:00:46,440 --> 00:00:48,080 Now let's dive in to this episode. 16 00:00:48,600 --> 00:00:52,000 I wanted to start with something that that you've shared with me 17 00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:56,040 before and that is you've been talking about a great awakening 18 00:00:56,040 --> 00:00:59,280 that has happened happening and that a lot of mental models 19 00:00:59,600 --> 00:01:02,480 about money, technology, society are. 20 00:01:03,120 --> 00:01:06,680 Yeah, kind of breaking down. And yeah, I just want to kind of 21 00:01:06,680 --> 00:01:09,520 like start with that. Like can you unpack the thoughts 22 00:01:09,520 --> 00:01:12,520 you have around it? And, and maybe also, you know, 23 00:01:12,520 --> 00:01:15,360 if these mental models are breaking down, what is going to 24 00:01:15,360 --> 00:01:20,640 replace them? Yeah, I think trying to think 25 00:01:20,640 --> 00:01:22,480 there's there's different angles to take it. 26 00:01:22,480 --> 00:01:25,440 I think there's one and we've probably feel it in technology 27 00:01:25,440 --> 00:01:29,120 and you know you specifically on the kind of growth and how 28 00:01:29,120 --> 00:01:32,440 you've built your business on the podcast side and in a lens 29 00:01:32,440 --> 00:01:36,200 for technology and where it's heading that it like compounds 30 00:01:36,200 --> 00:01:38,400 when you start to understand these tools and leverage them 31 00:01:39,000 --> 00:01:41,160 and there's a lot of people going to be kind of left behind 32 00:01:41,160 --> 00:01:42,600 that. And that's a very small angle. 33 00:01:42,600 --> 00:01:46,080 But when you think about working in the traditional world and 34 00:01:46,080 --> 00:01:50,040 having a certain set of school toolkit and you really can't 35 00:01:50,040 --> 00:01:52,120 move outside of that. And we see this when we try to 36 00:01:52,120 --> 00:01:55,120 hire individuals at On Ramp. And I remember the specifically 37 00:01:55,120 --> 00:01:57,560 back in the day when we were supposed to be helping on the 38 00:01:57,560 --> 00:01:59,640 work side that we work with Mackenzie. 39 00:02:00,120 --> 00:02:02,240 And I just remember this visually like going into a 40 00:02:02,240 --> 00:02:05,000 presentation with them and they were like they saw fire for the 41 00:02:05,000 --> 00:02:06,920 first time when they saw Google Slides. 42 00:02:06,920 --> 00:02:10,360 And that you can in real time audit and edit or you can edit 43 00:02:11,039 --> 00:02:13,120 and you think about those individuals, like, imagine them 44 00:02:13,120 --> 00:02:15,320 today, like there's no way they're using AI tools, There's 45 00:02:15,320 --> 00:02:16,760 no way they're like compounding all these things. 46 00:02:16,760 --> 00:02:19,080 It's just like their, their, their brain got stuck and I 47 00:02:19,080 --> 00:02:22,360 don't know what it is. And so I think that there's this 48 00:02:22,360 --> 00:02:24,920 thing that's happening where some are, they're compounding. 49 00:02:24,920 --> 00:02:26,640 You kind of see this in the Bitcoin space and there's 50 00:02:26,640 --> 00:02:29,520 something to do with truth seeking and, and efficiency. 51 00:02:31,040 --> 00:02:34,440 But then we're I'm kind of where struggled to tie it back was on 52 00:02:34,520 --> 00:02:40,320 what we're just chatting about, which is Bitcoin being a common 53 00:02:40,320 --> 00:02:43,320 sense test. And it's this notion that 54 00:02:43,320 --> 00:02:45,680 independent of if you have all this baggage from the 55 00:02:45,680 --> 00:02:48,640 traditional world and you're 45 years old and you know what 56 00:02:48,640 --> 00:02:51,520 money is in real estate. It's like at the end of the day, 57 00:02:51,520 --> 00:02:54,280 if you're five years old and you say to the little girl or boy, 58 00:02:54,280 --> 00:02:57,760 do you want a unit that has a fixed supplier or one that can 59 00:02:57,760 --> 00:02:59,680 infinitely be created? They're going to pick the one 60 00:02:59,680 --> 00:03:02,680 that has some scarcity to it. And so it's like, well, what 61 00:03:02,680 --> 00:03:06,280 does it look like as the older individuals, these cohorts that 62 00:03:06,280 --> 00:03:10,120 refuse to kind of like, you know, adopt or or can't maybe 63 00:03:10,160 --> 00:03:13,200 maybe they can't. And this new wave, it's like 64 00:03:13,200 --> 00:03:17,240 ultimately gets to Bitcoin as kind of inevitability. 65 00:03:17,680 --> 00:03:20,080 But then the the last thing and what do you get to talk about on 66 00:03:20,080 --> 00:03:22,400 the other content I wanted to bring up, you told me to say was 67 00:03:22,600 --> 00:03:25,440 I still haven't fully wrapped my head around this. 68 00:03:25,440 --> 00:03:27,800 You're somebody in your listener group definitely has because you 69 00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:31,000 have a very big, you know, following is you kind of see 70 00:03:31,000 --> 00:03:34,280 this in like biblical text and there's different, there's 71 00:03:34,280 --> 00:03:36,960 different aspects of this. Like Noah's ark was an aspect 72 00:03:36,960 --> 00:03:38,480 where you could only save so many people. 73 00:03:38,480 --> 00:03:40,760 There's only so many people that were going to like actually get 74 00:03:40,760 --> 00:03:43,200 on and then understand and then they kind of rebuild. 75 00:03:43,680 --> 00:03:48,680 And then similarly with, I think it's Moses taking individuals or 76 00:03:48,760 --> 00:03:52,640 the Israelites out of Egypt, I believe, and then from Pharaoh. 77 00:03:52,640 --> 00:03:54,680 And then they had to go through the desert for 40 years and only 78 00:03:54,680 --> 00:03:57,000 so many people made it in, which were the younger people. 79 00:03:57,440 --> 00:04:00,040 And so it's just, it's a fascinating dynamic on this 80 00:04:00,040 --> 00:04:02,040 great awakening. I don't know if everyone's meant 81 00:04:02,040 --> 00:04:03,800 to see it. And then you kind of feel it 82 00:04:03,800 --> 00:04:05,680 around you where there's some people you can talk to about 83 00:04:05,680 --> 00:04:07,000 Bitcoin, there's some people that get it. 84 00:04:07,400 --> 00:04:10,240 No, I, I like that. I, I don't know if it happens in 85 00:04:10,240 --> 00:04:14,320 a very conscious way. It's more like, OK, my, like if 86 00:04:14,320 --> 00:04:17,040 I'm talking for myself, like my, my interest is piqued. 87 00:04:17,600 --> 00:04:20,600 I'm just studying. I'm finding more connected 88 00:04:20,600 --> 00:04:26,480 subjects and yeah, you, you create a view of where the world 89 00:04:26,480 --> 00:04:29,240 is going. And I think in a sense you're 90 00:04:29,240 --> 00:04:31,520 trying to protect yourself as well, right? 91 00:04:31,520 --> 00:04:34,240 Because it feels like, yeah, if you, if you don't adapt, you 92 00:04:34,240 --> 00:04:36,240 know, it's, it's like adapt or die. 93 00:04:37,040 --> 00:04:41,200 And I think people know that instinctively. 94 00:04:41,200 --> 00:04:44,240 And that is of course a big part of nature. 95 00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:49,000 But when you look at the, the speed of every technological 96 00:04:49,000 --> 00:04:53,720 innovation, it it's going faster, like the adoption is 97 00:04:53,720 --> 00:04:57,360 going faster. Well, whether it's voluntary or 98 00:04:57,360 --> 00:05:00,200 not, right? Because eventually the people 99 00:05:00,200 --> 00:05:03,840 in, in, in in another podcast we we had just now on the 100 00:05:03,840 --> 00:05:06,600 broadcast, we talked about, you know, the gunpowder example, 101 00:05:06,600 --> 00:05:08,120 that safety the moose talks about. 102 00:05:08,120 --> 00:05:11,760 It's like, yeah, you have to adopt something at some point or 103 00:05:11,760 --> 00:05:15,360 else you will literally die, you know, in the, in the, in the 104 00:05:15,360 --> 00:05:19,040 gunpowder example. And I think along the way, you 105 00:05:19,040 --> 00:05:21,240 know, like if you didn't have the Internet, you you didn't 106 00:05:21,240 --> 00:05:23,280 die. If you didn't have, you know, a 107 00:05:23,280 --> 00:05:25,880 voicemail at home or what's it like an answering machine at 108 00:05:25,880 --> 00:05:28,160 home, you didn't die. You know, if you didn't, if you 109 00:05:28,160 --> 00:05:31,760 didn't get like a digital newspaper, he didn't die. 110 00:05:31,760 --> 00:05:38,600 But like AI is going to be is a big threat. 111 00:05:38,600 --> 00:05:41,760 I don't know if you follow Adam Livingston, I'm going to have 112 00:05:41,760 --> 00:05:43,760 him on the pot. He talks a lot about AI and 113 00:05:43,760 --> 00:05:45,640 Bitcoin. And there he has an amazing 114 00:05:45,640 --> 00:05:48,280 video that we're going to dissect on the part. 115 00:05:48,280 --> 00:05:49,880 It's called like the great Harvesting. 116 00:05:49,880 --> 00:05:55,400 And he talks about how humans have secured their economic 117 00:05:55,400 --> 00:05:58,520 prosperity and their path towards the future by applying 118 00:05:58,520 --> 00:06:00,760 their intellect in different ways. 119 00:06:01,240 --> 00:06:07,760 But now your intellect is going to get demonetized by AI 120 00:06:07,760 --> 00:06:11,640 basically, which is which is eventually going to be free. 121 00:06:11,640 --> 00:06:15,800 So how do you adjust to that? So that's kind of how I'm 122 00:06:15,800 --> 00:06:17,800 looking at it. Like this is the first real, 123 00:06:18,200 --> 00:06:20,960 almost like existential technological progression that 124 00:06:20,960 --> 00:06:24,920 we're running against that you have to be aware of or you're 125 00:06:24,920 --> 00:06:28,720 going to be left behind. And when you meet people that 126 00:06:28,720 --> 00:06:32,920 also see that something is happening, it's very 127 00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:35,800 stimulating. You know, if I'm talking for 128 00:06:35,800 --> 00:06:38,680 myself to just learn from that, like, hey, how how can other 129 00:06:38,680 --> 00:06:40,960 people help me to survive the force, the future? 130 00:06:40,960 --> 00:06:44,440 That's kind of where my mind is at, Yeah. 131 00:06:45,560 --> 00:06:49,640 One aspect that you just keep on that remind me something I read 132 00:06:49,640 --> 00:06:51,880 earlier was about like the difference between knowledge and 133 00:06:51,880 --> 00:06:54,520 wisdom, where you can hear somebody pontificate, they go to 134 00:06:54,520 --> 00:06:56,440 school and they sound very knowledgeable. 135 00:06:58,360 --> 00:07:00,720 And you can kind of conflate in a world today. 136 00:07:00,720 --> 00:07:02,920 We talked about this in the last part too, about, you know, 137 00:07:02,920 --> 00:07:05,440 Senator Warren or these other people that sound knowledgeable, 138 00:07:05,440 --> 00:07:08,360 but they have no wisdom like and wisdom comes from just action. 139 00:07:09,040 --> 00:07:11,240 And so I think that's where you're referencing this all 140 00:07:11,240 --> 00:07:14,920 goes, is you can understand like knowledge is democratized. 141 00:07:14,920 --> 00:07:17,240 Everyone has access to everything now, but the wisdom 142 00:07:17,240 --> 00:07:20,560 comes from repetition and, you know, kind of getting punched in 143 00:07:20,560 --> 00:07:21,800 the face, metaphorically speaking. 144 00:07:21,800 --> 00:07:23,800 You got to go out in the world and do things and you can't 145 00:07:23,800 --> 00:07:25,480 actually like, you can't produce that. 146 00:07:25,880 --> 00:07:29,680 And so I think that ties into ultimately like Bitcoin and 147 00:07:29,680 --> 00:07:32,360 accountability because you have to produce things if you're 148 00:07:32,360 --> 00:07:33,720 going to have a push, it's a push system. 149 00:07:33,720 --> 00:07:35,920 So you have to have somebody send you the Bitcoin and produce 150 00:07:35,920 --> 00:07:40,440 some kind of value and it's going to, it's a very scary 151 00:07:40,440 --> 00:07:41,880 thought for a lot of individuals. 152 00:07:41,880 --> 00:07:45,040 I think Ubi is picking up more and more because to your point, 153 00:07:45,120 --> 00:07:47,080 a lot of jobs are going to be displaced. 154 00:07:47,080 --> 00:07:49,040 And I know there's a common narrative of like, well, you 155 00:07:49,040 --> 00:07:50,840 know, we got rid of the horse and then you get a car and more 156 00:07:50,840 --> 00:07:52,880 things are produced. And I do think there's some 157 00:07:52,880 --> 00:07:54,720 truth to that. But I think this is the first 158 00:07:54,720 --> 00:07:59,080 real kind of ultra like disruptive, deflationary, like 159 00:07:59,080 --> 00:08:01,280 technology that is going to leave a lot of people displaced. 160 00:08:01,280 --> 00:08:04,880 And there's going to need to be like societal, like refactoring 161 00:08:04,880 --> 00:08:06,800 of how do you actually make sure people don't starve? 162 00:08:08,560 --> 00:08:10,360 So I think that's where that kind of ties in and the whole 163 00:08:10,360 --> 00:08:15,120 Bitcoin AI thing is there. Here, I feel like this is this 164 00:08:15,120 --> 00:08:19,480 is really going to show the brutality of not only 165 00:08:19,480 --> 00:08:22,600 technological advancement, but in a sense also, yeah, just 166 00:08:22,600 --> 00:08:26,360 nature like your adaptability, like you have to you have to do 167 00:08:26,360 --> 00:08:30,200 it or else other people will figure it out for you. 168 00:08:30,200 --> 00:08:32,880 Even, you know, even even the Ubi example, right like 169 00:08:33,559 --> 00:08:37,679 conceptually I've I think that's that conceptually it's a great 170 00:08:37,679 --> 00:08:39,960 idea if you think about like abundance for everyone, 171 00:08:39,960 --> 00:08:41,640 etcetera. I I don't know if that should be 172 00:08:41,640 --> 00:08:43,720 UI. Maybe it's just Ubi. 173 00:08:43,720 --> 00:08:48,080 Maybe it's just accessibility to, you know, all the basic 174 00:08:48,080 --> 00:08:51,200 necessities to just have a life, for example, that that that that 175 00:08:51,200 --> 00:08:54,560 is free or just very, very accessible. 176 00:08:54,560 --> 00:08:59,320 But but I feel AI is just like a it's it's a crazy threat. 177 00:08:59,320 --> 00:09:03,680 So it's, it's going to force you to change your mental models of 178 00:09:03,880 --> 00:09:07,600 how comfortable you're having it in the world, etcetera. 179 00:09:07,600 --> 00:09:14,040 Like the need to adapt, I think is being reintroduced and that 180 00:09:14,040 --> 00:09:15,720 is going to be very difficult for people. 181 00:09:15,720 --> 00:09:18,520 But how, how, how do you look at that like practically? 182 00:09:18,520 --> 00:09:23,800 So if we talk about this convergence of of Bitcoin AI and 183 00:09:23,800 --> 00:09:28,360 energy, how do you look at or envision how, how these will 184 00:09:28,360 --> 00:09:31,800 interact to kind of like reshape and change everything that we 185 00:09:31,800 --> 00:09:35,440 know, whether that's, you know, financially or economically or 186 00:09:35,600 --> 00:09:37,280 you know, whatever you want to touch upon? 187 00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:39,640 Yeah. 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That's debify.com/brom. 234 00:12:00,440 --> 00:12:02,920 And I'm not smart enough to be on the like physics side. 235 00:12:02,920 --> 00:12:05,160 And everyone talks about like the state of entropy and like 236 00:12:05,160 --> 00:12:08,080 how the world, you know, wants to always like move into that 237 00:12:08,120 --> 00:12:10,000 framing. But the, the core idea that I 238 00:12:10,000 --> 00:12:12,080 think about is the state, the world wants to be more 239 00:12:12,080 --> 00:12:14,360 efficient. Like that's just the, that's the 240 00:12:14,360 --> 00:12:17,920 law of nature. And if that's true, we'll, it's, 241 00:12:17,920 --> 00:12:21,120 we've been very inefficient because we, the cost of capital, 242 00:12:21,160 --> 00:12:24,240 you know, the number of units, the false pricing signal and 243 00:12:24,240 --> 00:12:25,800 pricing mechanism has been false. 244 00:12:26,440 --> 00:12:30,080 And what happens is Bitcoin changes that because ultimately 245 00:12:30,080 --> 00:12:32,320 people now chase a unit with a fixed supply. 246 00:12:32,320 --> 00:12:34,480 They want more of that. And so at the end of the day, 247 00:12:34,480 --> 00:12:37,920 they want to do more with less. That's just for a micro example 248 00:12:37,920 --> 00:12:42,040 of an individual and then their spouse at home into starting 249 00:12:42,040 --> 00:12:44,040 businesses. And again, this is how on ramp 250 00:12:44,040 --> 00:12:47,000 kind of came about. And also the venture fund early 251 00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:50,120 riders is this notion of like, Oh my God, we're actually 252 00:12:50,120 --> 00:12:53,840 running laps around things because if you have everyone 253 00:12:53,840 --> 00:12:55,800 bought in that we're all partners in this. 254 00:12:55,800 --> 00:12:58,640 We all own equity in a business and the more efficient we build, 255 00:12:58,640 --> 00:13:01,240 the more units we get. You can't, people can't compete 256 00:13:01,240 --> 00:13:03,680 with that because they're usually looking at like, you 257 00:13:03,680 --> 00:13:06,440 know, loftier salaries and they're looking at, you know, 258 00:13:06,440 --> 00:13:09,280 the bonus or, and so you think about it like, how does this 259 00:13:09,280 --> 00:13:10,680 relate to a publicly traded company? 260 00:13:11,160 --> 00:13:13,920 Everyone or anybody that's worked at a large firm knows the 261 00:13:13,920 --> 00:13:17,080 amount of insane bureaucracy. This is where I like suffocated 262 00:13:17,080 --> 00:13:19,160 at the Googles and we work to the world because you can start 263 00:13:19,160 --> 00:13:21,480 off really hot, you know, hot and heavy there and really 264 00:13:21,480 --> 00:13:23,520 scale. But there's always as businesses 265 00:13:23,520 --> 00:13:28,240 grow the the pork and the nepotism and all these things 266 00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:30,680 that exist at large organizations that keep it from 267 00:13:30,680 --> 00:13:32,200 actually achieving its end results. 268 00:13:32,200 --> 00:13:35,440 Because when you have too much money, it just drowns out all 269 00:13:35,440 --> 00:13:37,280 the soundness and all the unit economics. 270 00:13:37,280 --> 00:13:41,760 And so where this ties back to an application, it goes back to 271 00:13:41,760 --> 00:13:45,200 what we talked about with Brian on it's bullish for merchants to 272 00:13:45,200 --> 00:13:47,880 be accepting Bitcoin. It's bullish for people to be 273 00:13:47,880 --> 00:13:50,000 accepting Bitcoin and recognize it for what it's worth. 274 00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:53,040 Because when those world class people understand this and then 275 00:13:53,040 --> 00:13:55,360 they understand that their companies are effectively like 276 00:13:55,360 --> 00:13:57,480 done and they don't know it yet because they can't actually 277 00:13:57,480 --> 00:14:01,080 pivot fast enough versus if they left and started a business that 278 00:14:01,080 --> 00:14:05,840 was 100 times more efficient with 101, one 100th of the 279 00:14:05,840 --> 00:14:07,920 capital. That's how we rebuild this 280 00:14:07,920 --> 00:14:09,760 world. And then it ties back to what we 281 00:14:09,760 --> 00:14:13,080 talked about in the purpose of Bitcoin is to give you room in 282 00:14:13,080 --> 00:14:16,240 space to really like do what you were meant to do. 283 00:14:16,280 --> 00:14:19,440 That's the key is meant to do like that's the, the huge 284 00:14:19,440 --> 00:14:21,680 insidious problem of like the the money. 285 00:14:21,680 --> 00:14:25,480 It is a it's, it's shackles, it's slavery because ultimately 286 00:14:25,480 --> 00:14:27,480 you're told to go to school and then you're told to go to 287 00:14:27,480 --> 00:14:29,760 college and you have the student debt and then you got to get the 288 00:14:29,760 --> 00:14:32,240 job and you got to like, and you're just shackled and you 289 00:14:32,240 --> 00:14:34,040 don't even know why. And then you need to your point 290 00:14:34,040 --> 00:14:35,920 about the real estate, you wake up and you're like, I have this 291 00:14:35,920 --> 00:14:38,040 huge portfolio of real estate. Why you're like, I don't know. 292 00:14:38,400 --> 00:14:41,160 And your life's gone. And so the second that somebody 293 00:14:41,160 --> 00:14:44,400 has the space and room to really think and what they're do, what 294 00:14:44,400 --> 00:14:47,280 they were designed to be on this planet Earth for, that's when 295 00:14:47,280 --> 00:14:48,960 society really starts to flourish. 296 00:14:48,960 --> 00:14:52,360 And so like, I don't know where I stand with him today because 297 00:14:52,640 --> 00:14:54,280 you know, whatever they're doing in Nakamoto. 298 00:14:54,280 --> 00:14:58,560 But like, Bailey had this really great quote a while ago, and 299 00:14:58,560 --> 00:15:01,040 it's like the real party starts when the dollar ends. 300 00:15:01,040 --> 00:15:03,640 And I really thought that was very profound because that's 301 00:15:03,640 --> 00:15:06,120 what that this really implying is like, we can actually go to 302 00:15:06,120 --> 00:15:08,600 where we were supposed to as a species when we get rid of like 303 00:15:08,600 --> 00:15:11,160 these shackles on everyone's productivity. 304 00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:13,640 Yeah. I mean, I do think that is also 305 00:15:13,640 --> 00:15:19,040 where the shock is, because when the dollar is gone, if we get to 306 00:15:19,040 --> 00:15:23,480 a place where there's a real free market competition of 307 00:15:23,480 --> 00:15:30,200 monies, that will also force a real free market economy of 308 00:15:31,280 --> 00:15:32,720 people. Ideas. 309 00:15:33,440 --> 00:15:34,280 Ideas. Yes. 310 00:15:34,280 --> 00:15:35,600 Ideas. That's a that's a better one. 311 00:15:35,600 --> 00:15:36,360 Yeah. Right. 312 00:15:36,560 --> 00:15:40,280 Which in essence is actually how I look at the world. 313 00:15:40,280 --> 00:15:42,600 It's like it's it's a war of ideas. 314 00:15:43,880 --> 00:15:46,960 Everyone has access to the infinite amount of ideas. 315 00:15:46,960 --> 00:15:50,040 And sometimes you receive an idea, but it can only exist in 316 00:15:50,040 --> 00:15:52,000 the world if you do something with it. 317 00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:54,560 And it's funny because this has been something that I've been 318 00:15:54,560 --> 00:15:56,960 thinking about. You know, I was talking with a 319 00:15:56,960 --> 00:16:00,360 friend and, and we were talking about, you know, even an idea as 320 00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:03,280 Kentucky Fried Chicken exists in the world. 321 00:16:03,560 --> 00:16:06,960 What a what a weird idea. The first time this guy had that 322 00:16:06,960 --> 00:16:08,520 idea, I'm going to make something that is called 323 00:16:08,520 --> 00:16:10,880 Kentucky Fried Chicken. And you have like buckets of 324 00:16:10,880 --> 00:16:13,080 fried chicken and milkshakes and stuff. 325 00:16:13,080 --> 00:16:18,400 Like, what a dumb idea, right? But there's probably ideas that 326 00:16:18,400 --> 00:16:24,600 we would judge to be better, but people didn't do anything with 327 00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:26,240 them, if that makes sense. Right. 328 00:16:26,240 --> 00:16:29,240 So Colonel Sanders actually did something with his idea and he 329 00:16:29,240 --> 00:16:32,200 manifested it in the world, whatever you think of Kentucky 330 00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:34,760 Fried Chicken. But the point is more even an 331 00:16:34,760 --> 00:16:38,920 idea that is Kentucky Fried Chicken can exist in the world 332 00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:40,560 if you do something with it, right? 333 00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:47,480 And where I want to go is that that competition of who is 334 00:16:47,480 --> 00:16:51,440 actually trying to manifest their idea into the world is 335 00:16:51,440 --> 00:16:57,560 going to be way, way harder, way stronger. 336 00:16:57,560 --> 00:17:01,480 Because I agree with you, right? Like the, the, the Internet gave 337 00:17:01,480 --> 00:17:04,240 everyone all the information. Now AI is giving everyone all 338 00:17:04,240 --> 00:17:07,599 the productivity. So even people that thought they 339 00:17:07,599 --> 00:17:11,280 would never have access to this global marketplace of ideas now 340 00:17:11,560 --> 00:17:15,480 have access and they can build anything, anything they want. 341 00:17:15,480 --> 00:17:19,680 So it's going to be way more about speed and adaptability and 342 00:17:19,680 --> 00:17:22,800 stuff like that. And again, that's why I think 343 00:17:23,040 --> 00:17:25,880 this is kind of like it's going to be a shock because that is 344 00:17:25,880 --> 00:17:29,840 something that even in Western societies where we think we have 345 00:17:29,880 --> 00:17:32,560 free capitalism and a free market and stuff like that, 346 00:17:32,560 --> 00:17:35,000 something like this has never existed before. 347 00:17:35,000 --> 00:17:38,240 And this is instantly on a, on a global scale, especially if you 348 00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:41,480 take into account Bitcoin, for example, if you use that as a as 349 00:17:41,480 --> 00:17:43,760 a medium of payment, like it doesn't, it doesn't matter 350 00:17:43,760 --> 00:17:47,280 anymore where the person who created a certain product 351 00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:49,200 resides. If you can pay them with, you 352 00:17:49,200 --> 00:17:53,520 know, a global decentralized money, then yeah, that that 353 00:17:53,520 --> 00:17:57,680 productivity could be exported to to any place in the world. 354 00:17:58,360 --> 00:18:01,040 Yeah, ideas. I mean, this is a complete 355 00:18:01,040 --> 00:18:03,000 aside, but like, ideas are interesting, right? 356 00:18:03,000 --> 00:18:06,160 Because they're almost like divinely, there's something like 357 00:18:06,160 --> 00:18:08,320 higher power or something sends it to you. 358 00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:11,560 And then it's similar to like if you know you should go to the 359 00:18:11,560 --> 00:18:14,440 gym, it's up to you if you actually cultivate it and do it 360 00:18:14,440 --> 00:18:15,840 or whatever you're supposed to do. 361 00:18:16,200 --> 00:18:19,160 It's very similar if you act on the idea, but the idea is that 362 00:18:19,160 --> 00:18:21,200 it's weird when it pops in your head and it feels like an 363 00:18:21,200 --> 00:18:24,680 unlock. But anyway, there's something 364 00:18:24,680 --> 00:18:26,640 that I don't think we've talked about, but it ties into what you 365 00:18:26,640 --> 00:18:29,880 shared is this notion of like Moore's Law and Metcalf's law. 366 00:18:29,880 --> 00:18:33,960 So like Metcalf's law naturally is like, I forgot if it's Dawn 367 00:18:33,960 --> 00:18:36,200 Metcalf, but it's like Ethernet squared. 368 00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:39,000 So it's like the connections of the amount of people in a user 369 00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:44,640 network extrapolate or grow that network in the value around it. 370 00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:47,880 And then Moore's laws obviously being able to do more with less. 371 00:18:47,880 --> 00:18:49,920 And you think about semiconductors and chips getting 372 00:18:49,920 --> 00:18:51,760 smaller, smaller, more efficient with capital. 373 00:18:52,120 --> 00:18:54,520 And so when you think about those two combined, that's where 374 00:18:54,520 --> 00:18:56,920 billions and billions and maybe trillions have been made in 375 00:18:56,920 --> 00:19:00,120 software and technology in the proliferation for the past 20 to 376 00:19:00,120 --> 00:19:02,680 30 years. But if you take those two 377 00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:07,600 directional angles of, you know, doing more with less and then 378 00:19:08,200 --> 00:19:11,840 connectivity, well, you can layer in Bitcoin and AI that 379 00:19:11,840 --> 00:19:14,880 they don't sit aside from them. They get basically like they sit 380 00:19:14,880 --> 00:19:18,280 together because AI is that version of Moore's law because 381 00:19:18,280 --> 00:19:20,600 you can do much more with less and these models and a lot of 382 00:19:20,600 --> 00:19:23,280 the software will be able to run with a lot less compute and 383 00:19:23,280 --> 00:19:26,120 individuals. And then the Metcalf's law is 384 00:19:26,120 --> 00:19:28,040 Bitcoin because of the connectivity aspect. 385 00:19:28,040 --> 00:19:30,960 So if you're in any country on the planet Earth, now your 386 00:19:30,960 --> 00:19:33,400 delivery of services and software is available to any 387 00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:36,000 other place on the planet Earth. And when you take those two on 388 00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:37,920 this side, these two on these side, that both are like 389 00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:40,160 accretive. It's not 1 + 1 = 2. 390 00:19:40,160 --> 00:19:43,040 It's, you know, 1 + 1 = 10 to, you know, whatever. 391 00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:46,840 And that's super fascinating to think about in like growth 392 00:19:46,840 --> 00:19:50,200 networks. Yeah, this is a video that I 393 00:19:50,200 --> 00:19:52,880 still want to make. Like I have a discussion with an 394 00:19:52,880 --> 00:19:57,680 AI to talk about. Would you rather adopt A money 395 00:19:57,680 --> 00:20:01,960 to exchange value with other AIS that's controlled by no one or 396 00:20:01,960 --> 00:20:05,760 controlled by humans? You know, like I think it makes 397 00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:10,640 perfect sense that the AIS will transact in Bitcoin, in a, in a, 398 00:20:11,520 --> 00:20:16,400 in a decentralized currency that no one else can influence just 399 00:20:16,400 --> 00:20:20,760 because. AIS are just computers in that 400 00:20:20,760 --> 00:20:23,520 sense, like they should make the most rational decision. 401 00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:27,280 So that's something I still would love to explore to see if 402 00:20:27,280 --> 00:20:33,200 the AIS actually agree with that or if they actually go for 403 00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:39,240 something that is maybe less less voluntary, for example. 404 00:20:39,240 --> 00:20:42,800 So yeah, I, I like what you said about this conversions. 405 00:20:42,800 --> 00:20:45,920 I, I see that happening to in, in a technological way, but also 406 00:20:45,920 --> 00:20:50,320 in a way that if there's going to be a shock with AI, you know, 407 00:20:50,320 --> 00:20:53,320 and, and this global productivity, how do you protect 408 00:20:53,320 --> 00:20:56,520 yourself? As in how do you create time and 409 00:20:56,520 --> 00:20:59,720 space to figure out what, what the hell is next for you? 410 00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:03,240 If that makes sense, Right. So, and we talked about this 411 00:21:03,240 --> 00:21:06,400 before, but Fiat money creates, gives you more uncertainty 412 00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:08,800 towards the future, where Bitcoin lowers your uncertainty 413 00:21:08,800 --> 00:21:11,400 towards the future. Well, if you know that there in 414 00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:14,680 in general is going to be more uncertainty towards the future, 415 00:21:15,360 --> 00:21:18,680 you know, Bitcoin is, in my opinion, the only way to protect 416 00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:22,080 yourself for this coming shock. So you actually have time and 417 00:21:22,080 --> 00:21:27,040 space to kind of like make sense of it and and see if you can 418 00:21:27,040 --> 00:21:29,240 create a path forward for yourself as well. 419 00:21:30,200 --> 00:21:33,280 Yeah. I mean, I'm curious like where 420 00:21:33,280 --> 00:21:38,080 you think where you think this goes in the sense of like 421 00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:41,800 there's a deflationary aspect and you I mentioned Ubi not 422 00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:43,600 because I'm in favor of it or against it. 423 00:21:43,600 --> 00:21:48,800 I just, it feels like, it feels like the changes are going to be 424 00:21:48,800 --> 00:21:52,320 so dramatic that things that are going to need to be developed 425 00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:54,960 that we've never seen before. And like an example of this is 426 00:21:55,480 --> 00:21:57,400 because there will be an increased cost of capital. 427 00:21:57,400 --> 00:21:59,800 It's not, it won't be a false call of cost. 428 00:21:59,800 --> 00:22:02,800 It won't be 0%, it won't be 6% or whatever the Fed funds rate 429 00:22:02,800 --> 00:22:04,240 is today. It's going to be whatever 430 00:22:04,240 --> 00:22:09,280 bitcoins, you know, growth rate is or appreciation on an 431 00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:13,200 analyzed basis of productivity. Most people aren't prepared for 432 00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:16,160 that because we've seen those like again, it's directionally, 433 00:22:16,160 --> 00:22:19,000 but like remember in 2020 and 2021 during COVID and they had 434 00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:22,280 the product manager that was at the like pool and she was making 435 00:22:22,280 --> 00:22:24,000 her under $50,000 not doing much like. 436 00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:26,120 There's a women. Yeah. 437 00:22:26,280 --> 00:22:29,240 There's a big part of society that just actually forgot how to 438 00:22:29,240 --> 00:22:31,760 produce value at an efficient scale. 439 00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:34,920 And if we think about deflationary tools like AI and 440 00:22:34,920 --> 00:22:37,760 then also individuals that are able to compound that growth. 441 00:22:37,760 --> 00:22:41,640 So one person may be able to do the work of 100 or 1000. 442 00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:44,520 That's where society goes. If you're chasing a a singular 443 00:22:44,520 --> 00:22:47,680 unit that has a finite supply, like it's, it's just again, self 444 00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:50,440 preservation because it's another tool is going to charge 445 00:22:50,440 --> 00:22:52,760 a little bit less Bitcoin, you're going to not be able to 446 00:22:52,760 --> 00:22:55,080 compete with the other company. So it's just you're going to be 447 00:22:55,080 --> 00:22:59,520 able to do more with less. But again, if the individual is 448 00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:02,920 used to this world the way I like and it is like going to a 449 00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:05,080 different planet, they're just not going to be able to breathe. 450 00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:08,400 Because I've seen this like, you know, I've worked with them, 451 00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:09,920 I've tried to hire them. It just doesn't work. 452 00:23:10,560 --> 00:23:12,600 And so I'm just curious, like, how do you think about that? 453 00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:15,560 Because that's the thing that seems very scary is that like, 454 00:23:15,560 --> 00:23:20,560 you take not only this aspect in the workplace or just how do you 455 00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:23,440 generate wealth? But then the the fact that like, 456 00:23:23,440 --> 00:23:25,960 we've been in a world for the past 100 years of an 457 00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:28,520 inflationary currency. And now people are going to have 458 00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:30,960 to manage the fact that like this thing's fixed supply. 459 00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:34,400 And how do you think about, you know, preserving that capital? 460 00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:36,560 It's just that it's a new world that I don't think people are 461 00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:39,760 prepared for. Yeah, that's that's why I call 462 00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:41,800 it a shock. I think it's a shock, but I'm 463 00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:46,160 actually looking at it in a very positive. 464 00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:51,480 Maybe it's a bit the utopian way, but let's let's say it like 465 00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:52,520 this. I think there's a shock. 466 00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:55,040 I think many people will not be able to handle it. 467 00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:58,560 Just just what you said I think is very true. 468 00:23:59,040 --> 00:24:02,800 And you know, if if you listen to people, I don't know, if you 469 00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:07,080 listen to there's a podcast with Tim Ferris and Chris Saka where 470 00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:09,800 they talk about AI in the future and like, would you send your 471 00:24:09,800 --> 00:24:11,960 kids to law school or finance school? 472 00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:14,880 And Chris Sacca just says, fuck no, you know, like this is this 473 00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:17,240 is all dead. Like he, he actually talks about 474 00:24:17,240 --> 00:24:19,760 a commencement speech he did where he just tells all the 475 00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:23,080 graduates like everything you worked for is is done. 476 00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:26,640 You know, so I I don't know where you're going, but where 477 00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:29,560 you think you're going is not ex non existent anymore. 478 00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:32,280 You know, that's a huge. Shocker of of course. 479 00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:34,080 And I think it also depends on on your age. 480 00:24:34,120 --> 00:24:37,200 So on one side, I think it's going to be very hard for a lot 481 00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:40,440 of people. I also think on the other side, 482 00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:44,520 maybe the caveat is if you protect yourself with Bitcoin to 483 00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:51,840 create the time and space to actually have the optionality to 484 00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:54,760 kind of take a step back and figure out, OK, what is going on 485 00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:57,320 here and how am I going to operate in this world? 486 00:24:57,800 --> 00:25:03,240 You actually have an opportunity to figure out what would I 487 00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:05,600 actually enjoy? You know, why am I here or how 488 00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:09,360 can I add value to to the world, you know, and if you you know, 489 00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:12,680 the video of these these these product managers in the pool 490 00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:15,760 being like, yeah, I'm a product manager, growth startup or I 491 00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:17,880 don't know, I don't even know what they're saying. 492 00:25:19,120 --> 00:25:21,360 Yeah. Do you think they really enjoyed 493 00:25:21,360 --> 00:25:24,120 that? You know, that probably they're 494 00:25:24,120 --> 00:25:27,320 like, yeah, I mean, I'm in the pool and I'm making 150 or 200 495 00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:29,160 KA year. So that sounds great. 496 00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:33,080 But yeah, is it eventually about money? 497 00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:34,760 Do you really think you're adding value? 498 00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:39,680 So I think people will be forced to start asking these these 499 00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:42,480 questions, which in general, I would say it's a good thing. 500 00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:46,160 I don't think it's going to be easy, but I do think it's a it's 501 00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:48,840 a good, it's a good thing. I actually look at it as kind of 502 00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:53,200 like possibility to to enlighten yourself a bit. 503 00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:55,840 Yeah, it's a good point like that. 504 00:25:55,840 --> 00:26:01,440 If abundance is is is unilateral or across the board, then you 505 00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:06,400 start to like money doesn't necessarily become this, I think 506 00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:07,280 it's. All what you. 507 00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:10,520 Need what you need in such a large focus because I feel like 508 00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:12,960 there's a lot of gaslighting that goes around that People say 509 00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:14,920 the economy is good in the US. It's like not good. 510 00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:18,280 It's just that it's good for if you sit in very small pockets of 511 00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:21,120 the United States. And so it, money just becomes a 512 00:26:21,120 --> 00:26:22,760 big thing because most people don't have it. 513 00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:27,040 One thing that I want to flag to you, because I've been thinking 514 00:26:27,040 --> 00:26:29,080 about it more and more and we're looking at a, at a company. 515 00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:31,520 I don't know if it'll be this company, but I think you'll 516 00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:34,320 appreciate it because now your, your father and, and multiple 517 00:26:34,480 --> 00:26:38,760 children and, and bright children is this is going to 518 00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:43,000 sound a little bit, a little bit controversial, but like there's 519 00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:46,160 a notion of where there was child labor laws, like people, 520 00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:49,240 like kids don't work, right. If you're 5715, you know, even 521 00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:52,720 like under 15 and a lot of it stem back from the industrial 522 00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:54,800 age and you know, if you went to work, they put them in there, 523 00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:59,720 they lost a finger. But imagine 5 to 15, you know, 524 00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:03,000 is kids are going to be able to really produce a lot of value. 525 00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:05,240 And they should because given that they're going to be 526 00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:07,080 digitally native, they're going to be able to go online. 527 00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:08,600 And nobody really taps into that today. 528 00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:11,360 There's no real like platform. There's no ability for them to 529 00:27:11,360 --> 00:27:13,800 grow in and learn what they care about and come into that. 530 00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:16,960 So if you take that just like small notion, and then I thought 531 00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:19,320 deeply about it for a while of just schooling being really 532 00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:20,920 messed up. Personally, I think about like 533 00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:24,120 high school in the US, it's just a big issue because you go in 534 00:27:24,120 --> 00:27:26,720 there, it's state-run, it's not really productive. 535 00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:29,080 And then it ultimately feeds you into what's I think was the 536 00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:30,560 ultimate like debt slavery is college. 537 00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:34,400 And then you get stuck with four years of debt, not learning 538 00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:36,520 anything, right. And so I've like, I've always 539 00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:38,480 kind of been interested in, well, what if like high school 540 00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:40,920 was like a, a business run enterprise. 541 00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:42,920 In the first two years, you got like the basics. 542 00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:45,880 In the next two years was almost like a trade where you had to 543 00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:48,960 like learn whatever you are most interested in for each quarter 544 00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:51,560 you would switch or every six months, so you know, the 545 00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:53,960 calendar year. But it was run like a private 546 00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:56,160 enterprise because then you would be like a placement into 547 00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:58,320 the company because they'd be producing these most efficient 548 00:27:58,320 --> 00:27:59,760 thing. And then if you were just like a 549 00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:01,760 shit head and and whatever your parents would pay for you to go 550 00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:04,400 to the school or pay more. But you see them going like it 551 00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:06,040 turns into something that actually has to produce an 552 00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:09,000 outcome. And then the last part is there 553 00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:12,440 really is no marketplace for bot for for vibe thinkers. 554 00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:13,480 You know, this is just a new term. 555 00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:15,760 It's like, how does somebody create a portfolio if they do 556 00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:19,960 content marketing, umm, tooling, uh, software. 557 00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:22,320 Like there's no way to just like look at Brom and see the 558 00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:24,280 repository of work that he's done. 559 00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:27,320 And if I'm at Coca-Cola and I want you to take over 1000 560 00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:29,200 person thing. And so we're looking at a 561 00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:31,280 company that's kind of like tying some of these themes 562 00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:33,640 together. And then obviously Bitcoin would 563 00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:37,240 fit into that because you can be able to, you know, be paid 564 00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:40,200 globally and you can even gamify some of the educational content. 565 00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:42,120 But I think this is some of the stuff that helps support what 566 00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:44,840 you're describing of in a world of abundance, you're going to 567 00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:47,560 naturally need to cultivate people from from very early ages 568 00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:49,920 to figure out what they're good at, get them involved. 569 00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:53,200 And it just changes the dynamic between work and life. 570 00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:58,400 If you want to self custody your Bitcoin stack, I recommend the 571 00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:01,560 Blockstream Jade Plus. I've been using this premium 572 00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:04,720 Bitcoin only hardware wallet for a few months now and I love its 573 00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:08,000 design and ease of use. What makes it stand out is its 574 00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:10,920 open source hardware and software and Blockstream's 575 00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:14,160 unique genuine check which make sure that your device is 576 00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:16,920 authentic, no back doors or compromises. 577 00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:21,360 You can connect with the J Plus however you want Bluetooth USBC 578 00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:24,320 or you can go fully air gapped with its building camera for 579 00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:27,840 cable free QR transactions. The metal case feels solid and 580 00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:30,560 the color screen is easy to read and it connects with your 581 00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:33,960 favorite Bitcoin apps like Blockstream, Green Sparrow and 582 00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:36,200 Electron. Get your J Plus today at 583 00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:40,320 store.blockstream.com and use code BOM to get 10% of your 584 00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:44,520 entire order. Let's talk about something that 585 00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:47,040 not a lot of people think about before it's too late. 586 00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:49,600 Where are you storing your Bitcoin seed words? 587 00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:52,880 Are they truly secure? I found my solution with Stamp 588 00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:54,840 Seed. It's an elegant all in one 589 00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:58,440 titanium plate solution with no separate pieces to lose or 590 00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:00,440 manage. Your seat phrase gets 591 00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:04,120 permanently stamped into pure titanium that withstands fire, 592 00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:06,880 survives water, and lasts for generations. 593 00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:09,480 And like shallow etching methods, stamp seats better. 594 00:30:09,480 --> 00:30:12,800 The tools help you to deeply stamp every letter for permanent 595 00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:15,680 readability, protecting your financial legacy. 596 00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:19,080 When you order a titanium seed plate from Stamp Seed, you can 597 00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:22,440 also upload a custom design or your logo to customize the back 598 00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:25,000 of your plate to make it fully personalized. 599 00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:28,120 Paper seed phrases are a disaster waiting to happen. 600 00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:31,120 Secure your Bitcoin with Stamp Seed for decades to come. 601 00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:33,560 Visit stampse-ed.com and use Kobrum. 602 00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:37,080 That's Bram to get 15% of your order. 603 00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:41,080 I like that. I mean, I think, I think that 604 00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:46,200 ties into how the future is just going to be different, like 605 00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:48,840 really different in the sense that if you have young children 606 00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:54,960 now, all your ideas around school and education and job and 607 00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:58,680 and stuff like that, whatever you how however you thought 608 00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:01,960 about it before for your child or your future child, like 609 00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:05,920 everything that is our experience is probably dead. 610 00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:13,520 So as a young parent, you have to adjust to actually 611 00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:17,600 understand, I think, what is dead, but also how you, how you 612 00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:19,880 can adjust. And so I, I, I think there's an 613 00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:22,680 interesting idea there, especially in general, I think 614 00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:25,160 we should listen more to children because the children 615 00:31:25,160 --> 00:31:27,400 are, have unpoisoned minds, right? 616 00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:32,520 And in, in general are very smart in, in, in, in my 617 00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:35,280 experience, just in, in general, like, like children have very 618 00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:37,960 innovative ideas, right? So if you can help them 619 00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:42,800 cultivate that mind I, I, I think that would be very, very 620 00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:47,520 beneficial, especially if, and I wonder what you think if you 621 00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:49,200 align. So my idea is, you know, the 622 00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:52,360 robots are going to build robots are going to build robots, you 623 00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:55,240 know, and AI is going to build AI is going to build AI. 624 00:31:55,240 --> 00:31:59,880 So like that pace is only going to accelerate and just keeping 625 00:31:59,880 --> 00:32:07,840 the existential threat case of, you know, AGI with a 300 plus IQ 626 00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:13,160 becoming our overlord, you know, matrix, whatever, which I think 627 00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:16,040 has a non 0 probability, but but we'll see where that goes, 628 00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:21,680 right? If we keep it positive like that 629 00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:23,720 is, it's only going to accelerate, it's going to be 630 00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:25,800 faster and faster. So like our children's 631 00:32:25,800 --> 00:32:32,480 children's lives are going to be different again. 632 00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:36,720 So I think that's going to compress like that, that rate of 633 00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:41,200 change. So even how we, you know, even 634 00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:44,360 the ways that we could help our children now will probably not 635 00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:47,880 be how our children are going to help their children. 636 00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:51,600 And so I think, yeah. I would say yes and no there 637 00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:55,360 that I'm glad you brought that up for for the the first part is 638 00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:59,000 not to get darker morbid, but there's something to the fact 639 00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:01,280 that it's so hard to see. I think we're both struggling to 640 00:33:01,280 --> 00:33:04,040 understand how the future looks that there is a non zero chance 641 00:33:04,040 --> 00:33:07,880 that it all just ends because it's all like that insane from 642 00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:11,720 when you think about the level of acceleration that people just 643 00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:13,240 we don't even know how to fathom. 644 00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:16,400 But let's say let's stay positive and that it doesn't. 645 00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:19,280 I think that there is a deep notion. 646 00:33:19,280 --> 00:33:21,120 I've been thinking about this deeply. 647 00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:25,360 That's why I kind of referenced this is as we get older, people 648 00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:29,280 start passing away, right? And you think about like some of 649 00:33:29,280 --> 00:33:32,680 your memories or stories you heard from grandparents and 650 00:33:32,680 --> 00:33:35,360 other individuals and you think put your like mind into where 651 00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:36,840 they went. Whether I like to think about 652 00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:40,560 like in a saloon and sitting around and the wisdom and the 653 00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:44,200 tells and the stories that are told, those thought to like move 654 00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:46,160 if we don't tell them anymore, right? 655 00:33:46,160 --> 00:33:47,480 Like they kind of die off with them. 656 00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:50,760 And I remember being told when I was younger and then he hear him 657 00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:54,200 and now you have a son and you think about like it's your job 658 00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:58,000 almost to relate those stories and that timeless wisdom. 659 00:33:58,040 --> 00:34:01,680 Because as we change, it's, it's even more important to not 660 00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:04,680 forget that these things, there are certain truths that will be 661 00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:08,199 true forever. And then and that's how it's 662 00:34:08,199 --> 00:34:10,040 always kind of changed. Now we're probably accelerating 663 00:34:10,040 --> 00:34:13,639 faster. But I think that I think that's 664 00:34:13,639 --> 00:34:15,560 an important function. And I think that is what will 665 00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:19,600 give people the ultimate edge and opportunity, because that's 666 00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:23,040 really how you can like win in, in life is that you have a base, 667 00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:25,000 you have to have an arc like an anchor point. 668 00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:27,239 And then everything else revolves around that versus 669 00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:29,280 everything's up for grabs. This is like the open border 670 00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:30,639 policy. It's like, if everyone's open 671 00:34:30,639 --> 00:34:31,880 borders there. And then it's like, well, what, 672 00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:32,920 what's our nationality? Like? 673 00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:34,159 Who are we? What's all those things? 674 00:34:34,679 --> 00:34:38,120 And anyway, this is what tied back to the last part and why it 675 00:34:38,159 --> 00:34:40,880 didn't immediately call out, but it goes into the, the corporate 676 00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:44,040 treasury and all that, the, the buying of, of those assets. 677 00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:46,320 It's like nobody really understands like what they're 678 00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:48,320 doing here and why they're chasing money. 679 00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:51,120 And if they understood why they're chasing it to your point 680 00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:53,760 in self preservation, then you would ultimately say, well, I 681 00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:57,360 want the thing that provides me the risk, the lowest risk to be 682 00:34:57,360 --> 00:34:59,920 able to hold that. And all that's embedded in 683 00:34:59,960 --> 00:35:02,360 everything that's publicly traded holding Bitcoin is by the 684 00:35:02,360 --> 00:35:05,120 definition of risk, you have execution risk, custody risk, 685 00:35:05,120 --> 00:35:07,480 all these things. And so like, that's the big 686 00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:09,600 problem here is that most people don't even understand what 687 00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:11,320 they're chasing. So they get excited about these 688 00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:12,800 things. And there's a lot of wealthy 689 00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:14,720 people similar to the real estate friends that you 690 00:35:14,720 --> 00:35:16,520 referenced, like, well, why are you doing this? 691 00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:18,720 It's like if you ask some of these people, like, I don't 692 00:35:18,720 --> 00:35:21,680 actually actually know why. So anyway. 693 00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:29,640 I think the the don't actually know why is in general, of 694 00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:34,920 course, what what we are talking about with regards to 695 00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:37,000 understanding Bitcoin first, right? 696 00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:42,720 It's just this this intricacy of well, yeah, the the stories that 697 00:35:42,720 --> 00:35:47,920 have been told to us, I think we actually had to shed off some of 698 00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:51,640 that stuff before we could understand Bitcoin, right. 699 00:35:51,640 --> 00:35:55,760 And, and maybe this is actually with each generation, like the 700 00:35:55,760 --> 00:35:58,800 parents tell their children something that has worked for 701 00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:02,240 them or, or how they've looked at life and and what's helped 702 00:36:02,240 --> 00:36:07,560 them along the way, right. But as just, I think the core of 703 00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:11,040 it is, is, is as technology progresses, it opens up the 704 00:36:11,040 --> 00:36:14,080 world even more. Or in a is case, you know, the 705 00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:17,720 productivity and the economy and the, and this this, this free 706 00:36:17,720 --> 00:36:25,960 market of, of ideas that the perspective that we have now is 707 00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:28,920 just something that is just irrelevant when our children are 708 00:36:28,920 --> 00:36:31,840 35. Like that perspective is just 709 00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:35,280 totally out outdated. And maybe this is just always 710 00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:37,520 the way it goes. Actually, maybe maybe we are 711 00:36:37,520 --> 00:36:40,960 talking in a circle and people listening are like, yeah, this 712 00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:43,840 is always how it goes, right? Like when when we get older, we 713 00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:47,400 we can't really look at the world in the same way anymore. 714 00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:50,680 It's like a like each generation is kind of like a paradigm shift 715 00:36:50,680 --> 00:36:53,440 in in that sense. But because it's going faster 716 00:36:53,440 --> 00:37:03,120 and faster, I think it will demand the constant, yeah, a 717 00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:07,720 constant effort to to try to understand where are we actually 718 00:37:07,720 --> 00:37:09,600 going. Yeah, I think that this ties a 719 00:37:09,600 --> 00:37:12,800 little bit into the previous topic of like uncharted 720 00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:14,600 territories. I think we're definitely in 721 00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:17,000 uncharted territories when it comes to this cycle and where we 722 00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:20,880 go from here. I'm increasingly thinking we go 723 00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:24,880 much higher than anybody's expecting TBD on what the 724 00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:28,240 downturn looks like given, you know, leverage and froth in the 725 00:37:28,240 --> 00:37:30,320 system that will will come with it. 726 00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:38,760 But when we think about the just this steady demand from these 727 00:37:38,760 --> 00:37:42,120 corporate treasuries coming in globally, and that's not coming 728 00:37:42,120 --> 00:37:45,000 in in a vacuum. Like the, you see this on 729 00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:46,320 Twitter and you see this in the mem pool. 730 00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:49,120 Like there's not anybody really from a transaction perspective, 731 00:37:49,120 --> 00:37:54,200 especially for the price it at 105 K using Bitcoin at levels 732 00:37:54,200 --> 00:37:57,120 that you would expect in, in like all time high period. 733 00:37:57,520 --> 00:38:00,040 And so, and then we, I've been saying this for the past like 2 734 00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:02,720 years, anecdotally, there's not a lot of demand from net new 735 00:38:02,720 --> 00:38:05,640 buyers. And, and like an anecdote that 736 00:38:05,640 --> 00:38:08,560 my wife told me yesterday was that rich were a big tech 737 00:38:08,560 --> 00:38:10,440 company and, and some all hands or something. 738 00:38:10,480 --> 00:38:13,480 They were talking about fads and like how AI wasn't a fad like 739 00:38:13,480 --> 00:38:15,080 other things. And they referenced crypto. 740 00:38:15,640 --> 00:38:19,000 And the boss of the person was like somebody like chimed in, 741 00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:19,880 right. There's a Bitcoin over there. 742 00:38:19,880 --> 00:38:22,480 They're like, well, Bitcoin's 105K and he's like, oh, not like 743 00:38:22,480 --> 00:38:24,760 Bitcoin or whatever. Like people don't even know that 744 00:38:24,760 --> 00:38:26,320 this thing's sitting at this level. 745 00:38:26,720 --> 00:38:28,640 And so I think that's the thing that like people that listen to 746 00:38:28,640 --> 00:38:32,360 this podcast in our groups, we're in this like super bubble 747 00:38:32,360 --> 00:38:34,960 that the rest of the world doesn't even know Bitcoin is at 748 00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:37,640 like this 100K price point. If they do, they still think 749 00:38:37,640 --> 00:38:41,400 it's all like a Ponzi. And it leads me to believe that 750 00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:44,320 this cycle, if we're still in cycles, it's going to play much 751 00:38:44,320 --> 00:38:49,720 into into 2026, if not longer or we're just in a new uncharted 752 00:38:49,720 --> 00:38:51,840 territory. And I think we are because of 753 00:38:51,840 --> 00:38:53,800 the SBR stuff. I think that's like the final 754 00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:55,720 positioning. If you have sovereign stacking, 755 00:38:56,360 --> 00:38:59,360 then that downward pressure, like they're not stacking to go 756 00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:01,880 into like, what are you going back into dollars stable coins? 757 00:39:01,880 --> 00:39:04,280 Like the only thing you're really buying is probably land. 758 00:39:04,760 --> 00:39:08,720 And that's where like I anchor. I know we kind of have, we, we 759 00:39:09,640 --> 00:39:12,440 prod each other about this, but I always anchor to the gold 760 00:39:12,440 --> 00:39:16,320 stuff because you can look at like what Tether and those guys, 761 00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:19,080 they just are seeing around corners and what their balance 762 00:39:19,080 --> 00:39:22,680 sheet looks like is BTC, gold and land. 763 00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:26,640 So like as Bitcoin runs and you realize those gains, what are 764 00:39:26,640 --> 00:39:29,680 you really doing with them is really, are you buying land or 765 00:39:29,680 --> 00:39:31,400 are you going to diversify into gold? 766 00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:33,480 But you're really not trading it for more dollars when 767 00:39:33,480 --> 00:39:35,480 historically that had been the pair you're trying to get more 768 00:39:35,480 --> 00:39:38,400 dollars. So I think we're just, to your 769 00:39:38,400 --> 00:39:40,120 point, we're just in a different place. 770 00:39:40,120 --> 00:39:44,320 I don't think anybody prepared for it, including us. 771 00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:50,360 Now I, I, I, I think that's a great answer that that's why 772 00:39:50,360 --> 00:39:54,520 this is obviously also so entertaining to follow, don't 773 00:39:54,520 --> 00:39:56,960 you think? Yeah, because it's, it's like 774 00:39:57,840 --> 00:40:00,200 it, it truly is entertaining to follow because the I think the 775 00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:03,320 definition of happiness is or like I'm not making this one up, 776 00:40:03,320 --> 00:40:06,240 but like the definition I thought of was you remember 777 00:40:06,240 --> 00:40:08,080 growing up when you were a kid and you had to go to school for 778 00:40:08,080 --> 00:40:10,000 the first day or there was something exciting, you woke up 779 00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:11,480 excited. Like that's the definition of. 780 00:40:11,480 --> 00:40:14,360 I think what everyone tries to get to is you wake up and you're 781 00:40:14,360 --> 00:40:16,840 excited to go to work. And that's part of what you're 782 00:40:16,840 --> 00:40:19,320 saying here is that we're just like in uncharted territories. 783 00:40:19,320 --> 00:40:20,600 We're right smack in the middle of it. 784 00:40:20,600 --> 00:40:24,000 We get to participate in it. Like what better timeline could 785 00:40:24,000 --> 00:40:28,760 you could you ask for? I know, yeah, it's insane. 786 00:40:29,000 --> 00:40:32,040 It's it's so crazy that when I think about this, right, like 787 00:40:32,720 --> 00:40:37,480 the fact that we are getting to live through this is insane. 788 00:40:39,320 --> 00:40:43,720 Just to have studied it, seeing it just like I feel like I'm 789 00:40:43,720 --> 00:40:46,360 having a chair, like a seat in a stadium and I'm just like 790 00:40:47,040 --> 00:40:50,120 watching it on the fault, you know, Like it's every day I 791 00:40:50,120 --> 00:40:53,320 still learn something new. In participate is the key. 792 00:40:53,320 --> 00:40:56,520 Like I think that this is the biggest thing and I'll shout 793 00:40:56,520 --> 00:41:00,400 forever and because I didn't understand this was nobody has 794 00:41:00,520 --> 00:41:03,040 any idea normally what they're doing in the real world. 795 00:41:03,040 --> 00:41:04,640 They definitely don't know what they're doing in Bitcoin. 796 00:41:04,760 --> 00:41:08,360 Like it's just absolutely true. There's no shortage of 10 797 00:41:08,360 --> 00:41:09,920 different angles. Not to pick on anybody. 798 00:41:09,920 --> 00:41:12,240 They have no clue, but they're looked at as the leader in 799 00:41:12,240 --> 00:41:15,640 whatever respectful, respected area in Bitcoin. 800 00:41:16,280 --> 00:41:19,240 And if that's the case and somebody's smart and understands 801 00:41:19,240 --> 00:41:21,440 this and comes from their professional experience, while 802 00:41:21,440 --> 00:41:23,520 also deeply understanding Bitcoin because you have to 803 00:41:23,520 --> 00:41:26,840 understand Bitcoin, your idea is very paramount and should be 804 00:41:26,840 --> 00:41:29,080 acted on because you can actually influence the 805 00:41:29,080 --> 00:41:31,400 trajectory of whatever that area of expertise. 806 00:41:31,440 --> 00:41:34,360 And so people should do that because the sooner they do that 807 00:41:34,360 --> 00:41:36,640 is, the sooner they're going to be, they're going to benefit the 808 00:41:36,640 --> 00:41:38,040 world benefits, Bitcoin benefits. 809 00:41:38,040 --> 00:41:40,520 And that's like what makes this exciting is you're not just 810 00:41:40,520 --> 00:41:42,280 watching it, you're participating by having these 811 00:41:42,280 --> 00:41:44,880 conversations, sparking ideas, maybe building businesses. 812 00:41:45,400 --> 00:41:47,680 And that's the exciting part is you can actually participate. 813 00:41:47,680 --> 00:41:50,160 You're not just viewing when historically in the Fiat world, 814 00:41:50,160 --> 00:41:52,840 you just get to watch like what the the lizards are are doing. 815 00:41:53,240 --> 00:41:57,760 Yeah, you've also been talking about corporate adoption being 816 00:41:57,760 --> 00:42:00,080 either the greatest asymmetric bet to the. 817 00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:03,120 Upside or the? Downside and I just really 818 00:42:03,120 --> 00:42:06,080 wanted to ask you about that what what you think about that I 819 00:42:06,080 --> 00:42:08,440 mean people are talking about you know Bitcoin treasury 820 00:42:08,440 --> 00:42:11,520 companies are the IC OS of this cycle etcetera. 821 00:42:12,320 --> 00:42:16,680 I've quite a different idea, I think I I think crypto killed 822 00:42:16,680 --> 00:42:20,160 itself with pumped out fun, you know, like there's, there's 823 00:42:20,160 --> 00:42:24,280 there's a million new tokens a week or a month, I don't even 824 00:42:24,280 --> 00:42:29,680 know. And the more serious game of 825 00:42:29,880 --> 00:42:37,040 creating new and exciting type of investments that, you know, I 826 00:42:37,040 --> 00:42:39,080 don't, I don't see Bitcoin as an investment, but a Bitcoin 827 00:42:39,080 --> 00:42:43,080 treasury company is definitely an investment that actually 828 00:42:43,080 --> 00:42:44,920 comes from the Bitcoin treasury company. 829 00:42:44,920 --> 00:42:50,240 So I think this is like an unlock for the people that are 830 00:42:50,360 --> 00:42:56,040 interested in Bitcoin or, or crypto broader and in connection 831 00:42:56,040 --> 00:42:59,520 to the existing, you know, Fiat financial system. 832 00:42:59,520 --> 00:43:04,160 I actually think that the treasury companies are just a 833 00:43:04,160 --> 00:43:07,520 very novel new, new thing that that that people that like 834 00:43:08,080 --> 00:43:11,760 trying to get an edge or, or, or or follow certain investments 835 00:43:11,840 --> 00:43:15,840 could actually have fun with and, and benefit from. 836 00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:18,560 You know, I'm not a crazy trader, so I'm not participating 837 00:43:18,560 --> 00:43:19,920 in that. But that, yeah, that's kind of 838 00:43:19,920 --> 00:43:22,920 how I look at it. But you're either this is up or 839 00:43:22,920 --> 00:43:27,440 crazy down. Yeah, I think that the lens of 840 00:43:27,440 --> 00:43:30,280 the treasury companies, I, I really, my favorite part about 841 00:43:30,280 --> 00:43:33,120 the treasury company craze is it's going to expose everyone 842 00:43:33,120 --> 00:43:35,400 that actually understands Bitcoin and where this goes. 843 00:43:35,400 --> 00:43:40,120 And that didn't, and with the one caveat that there's a non 844 00:43:40,120 --> 00:43:42,320 zero chance that this goes up into the right. 845 00:43:42,320 --> 00:43:44,680 And then everything I want to say I'm I'm completely stupid 846 00:43:44,680 --> 00:43:48,720 and wrong about. And for that to happen, meaning 847 00:43:48,880 --> 00:43:51,520 the treasury companies all adopt Bitcoin, then every other 848 00:43:51,520 --> 00:43:53,840 company adopts Bitcoin and it goes up into the right. 849 00:43:54,560 --> 00:43:58,440 And these companies have some nominal value over Bitcoin. 850 00:43:58,440 --> 00:44:01,040 You can trade those shares for BTC and you make money. 851 00:44:01,160 --> 00:44:03,400 And first people in like, I think that's the thesis. 852 00:44:04,200 --> 00:44:08,760 It discounts 2 things. So for that to happen, it means 853 00:44:08,760 --> 00:44:12,280 that there's no more humans running the companies and that 854 00:44:12,280 --> 00:44:15,920 there's no more hacks or any bad things that happen because 855 00:44:16,640 --> 00:44:19,480 ultimately humans are humans and there's a reason why it's called 856 00:44:19,480 --> 00:44:21,840 animal spirits. And ultimately, as leverage 857 00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:24,080 comes into the system and these companies have to compete with 858 00:44:24,080 --> 00:44:25,920 each other, they'll naturally blow themselves up. 859 00:44:25,920 --> 00:44:27,920 This is just like one-on-one business cycles. 860 00:44:28,400 --> 00:44:30,800 The other side of it, it's discounting that we'll never see 861 00:44:30,800 --> 00:44:33,400 any other hacker insolvency or something bad happened to the 862 00:44:33,400 --> 00:44:36,280 underlying where for 15 years if you centralized the underlying 863 00:44:36,280 --> 00:44:39,600 asset, it ends up. And so as long as if those two 864 00:44:39,600 --> 00:44:43,080 things don't happen, sure, this is that, but what's the chance 865 00:44:43,080 --> 00:44:45,600 of that? And now the downside is 866 00:44:45,600 --> 00:44:49,920 ultimately it goes back to what we talked about in the beginning 867 00:44:49,920 --> 00:44:54,480 of it, it they prey on like the naivete of the individual, 868 00:44:54,480 --> 00:44:57,480 understanding equities. And to your point being 869 00:44:57,480 --> 00:45:02,280 exciting, the sad part about bitcoins 100K is that it makes a 870 00:45:02,280 --> 00:45:04,400 lot of people feel like they missed the boat or they missed 871 00:45:04,400 --> 00:45:07,040 the boat on a on, on the appreciation. 872 00:45:07,040 --> 00:45:09,880 And so that's where you see this nihilism that's existed, whether 873 00:45:09,880 --> 00:45:12,960 it's with, you know, the proliferation of trading or 874 00:45:13,080 --> 00:45:17,040 trading, but also like gambling. And so people look for the next 875 00:45:17,040 --> 00:45:22,640 equity or the next 100 bagger. And what we all, what we talked 876 00:45:22,640 --> 00:45:26,200 about in the previous pod and a little bit earlier here is the 877 00:45:26,200 --> 00:45:31,040 whole, the reason money exists is to give, it's a intermediary 878 00:45:31,040 --> 00:45:35,240 good that captures the individual's productivity and is 879 00:45:35,240 --> 00:45:37,720 meant to be used to give optionality into the future. 880 00:45:37,800 --> 00:45:40,840 Like the person already went out on the risk curve because they 881 00:45:40,840 --> 00:45:43,880 had to develop and they got up in the morning to go hunt the 882 00:45:43,880 --> 00:45:47,040 wolf, build the business, go do whatever they did. 883 00:45:47,040 --> 00:45:48,200 They already were on the risk curve. 884 00:45:48,200 --> 00:45:51,320 So then now you have the money, you store it in something that's 885 00:45:51,320 --> 00:45:54,480 not speculative, and then it increases your optionality to 886 00:45:54,480 --> 00:45:57,200 invest in yourself and other productive endeavors or to 887 00:45:57,200 --> 00:45:59,280 provide for you and your family. That's what money is. 888 00:46:00,040 --> 00:46:01,720 That's not what any of this other stuff is. 889 00:46:01,720 --> 00:46:04,720 And so that's the reason why the meme is stay humble stacks. 890 00:46:04,720 --> 00:46:08,480 That's is you stay humble, you stack the hard money, it grows 891 00:46:08,480 --> 00:46:10,800 in purchasing power, and you live your life better off. 892 00:46:11,520 --> 00:46:14,080 What this other stuff is, is fundamentally the opposite of 893 00:46:14,080 --> 00:46:18,000 it. It's speculation, it's risk, but 894 00:46:18,000 --> 00:46:21,160 it's being conflated as the underlying and the common 895 00:46:21,160 --> 00:46:23,520 narrative when people bring this up is, oh, well, it's an 896 00:46:23,520 --> 00:46:24,920 exposure vehicle. It's all a lot. 897 00:46:24,920 --> 00:46:28,280 It's just a charade to explain that to people because it, it 898 00:46:28,360 --> 00:46:30,960 really reminds you of like, oh, I'm going to build a casino 899 00:46:30,960 --> 00:46:32,960 because somebody else is going to be build a casino. 900 00:46:32,960 --> 00:46:34,240 So I might as well like capture it. 901 00:46:34,240 --> 00:46:36,080 I'm going to build a gambling app because somebody else is 902 00:46:36,080 --> 00:46:38,000 going to build a gambling app. It's like, no, no, no, that's 903 00:46:38,000 --> 00:46:40,080 not the right response because ultimately you're going to be 904 00:46:40,080 --> 00:46:42,560 shown for what it is. It's no, you build productive 905 00:46:42,560 --> 00:46:45,640 tools and services that can allow for people to get into 906 00:46:45,640 --> 00:46:47,720 that right thing. And that's where the valuable 907 00:46:47,800 --> 00:46:50,520 familiar accrue. And so that's where I reference. 908 00:46:50,520 --> 00:46:54,080 It's like the last part to put like just weight behind that is 909 00:46:54,080 --> 00:46:57,480 it's illogical for people once they understand Bitcoin to not 910 00:46:57,520 --> 00:47:00,280 actually get out of these treasury positions. 911 00:47:00,720 --> 00:47:04,360 Because again, the common thought that the big, big people 912 00:47:04,360 --> 00:47:08,000 will say is this, the most sophisticated investors can't 913 00:47:08,000 --> 00:47:10,560 get access to Bitcoin. So they need my bonds or they 914 00:47:10,560 --> 00:47:13,600 need my, you know, equity. It's like, wait, so you're 915 00:47:13,600 --> 00:47:15,600 telling me that these people can't figure out how to get spot 916 00:47:15,600 --> 00:47:17,800 exposure? And I believe there's some truth 917 00:47:17,800 --> 00:47:19,760 to today. They don't understand Bitcoin so 918 00:47:19,760 --> 00:47:23,240 they buy these proxies. But by definition of as long as 919 00:47:23,240 --> 00:47:26,080 they get educated and grow their knowledge base like which all 920 00:47:26,080 --> 00:47:29,280 Bitcoin and holders do, they're going to want the thing that 921 00:47:29,280 --> 00:47:32,040 reduces the counterparty risk. Because mind you, by the while 922 00:47:32,040 --> 00:47:34,000 this is happening, these companies are blowing up and 923 00:47:34,000 --> 00:47:36,360 there's exchange hacks and there's geopolitical risk. 924 00:47:36,680 --> 00:47:40,240 If you have a treasury company and rain or wherever it is and 925 00:47:40,240 --> 00:47:41,920 they decide that this is competing with the local 926 00:47:41,920 --> 00:47:43,920 currency, well, what's the first thing you can do is just go 927 00:47:43,920 --> 00:47:46,080 seize the servers or wherever the the Bitcoin storage. 928 00:47:46,560 --> 00:47:48,800 When that happens, people are going to start to actually 929 00:47:48,960 --> 00:47:52,200 underwrite what these treasury companies are. 930 00:47:52,480 --> 00:47:54,600 And then on the micro level, it's the same thing. 931 00:47:54,600 --> 00:47:58,280 It's like somebody buys this equity and then they're like, oh 932 00:47:58,280 --> 00:48:00,320 wait, why am I not just holding the underline? 933 00:48:01,000 --> 00:48:03,200 And then I guess maybe the last part is like the volatility on 934 00:48:03,200 --> 00:48:05,000 these things is going to be absolutely insane and people 935 00:48:05,000 --> 00:48:06,720 can't even handle bitcoins volatility. 936 00:48:06,720 --> 00:48:08,840 And that's just money. And that's a thesis of long term 937 00:48:08,840 --> 00:48:10,160 storage. So how are you going to hold 938 00:48:10,160 --> 00:48:12,200 some of that? So all this together, it's just 939 00:48:12,200 --> 00:48:14,840 a, it's just nobody's incentivized to tell this story 940 00:48:14,840 --> 00:48:17,400 because people get excited about just like buying this stuff and 941 00:48:17,400 --> 00:48:21,160 then under like, even if people kind of know it, they own 942 00:48:21,160 --> 00:48:24,160 positions in these companies. So then they have to support the 943 00:48:24,160 --> 00:48:25,240 thesis. And the same thing with 944 00:48:25,240 --> 00:48:26,960 Ethereum. When you try to tell people that 945 00:48:26,960 --> 00:48:29,480 got Bitcoin but also Ethereum, it's like, no, it's binary. 946 00:48:29,480 --> 00:48:32,200 It's either one or or nothing. They'll be like, well, my 947 00:48:32,200 --> 00:48:34,680 treasury company is good because it does XY or Z. 948 00:48:38,400 --> 00:48:46,880 Yeah, it's I, I, I think This is why it's also hard to kind of 949 00:48:46,880 --> 00:48:50,440 prepare for the future because there's all these shiny things 950 00:48:50,440 --> 00:48:53,040 that you can do right now, right? 951 00:48:53,040 --> 00:48:55,880 And, and, and when you think about, you know, stay humble, 952 00:48:55,880 --> 00:49:01,720 stack sets and just chill, sit in your seat and wait for the 953 00:49:01,720 --> 00:49:05,320 future, right? I mean, I'm really enjoying 954 00:49:05,320 --> 00:49:07,960 that, but I also know that that's not for everyone, right? 955 00:49:07,960 --> 00:49:15,360 So there is always, always like a certain temptation to, I don't 956 00:49:15,360 --> 00:49:18,960 know, like be distracted is with the shiny things of, of, of 957 00:49:18,960 --> 00:49:20,640 today. I think there's, there's a 958 00:49:20,640 --> 00:49:23,320 natural thing there. But in general, again, if we, if 959 00:49:23,320 --> 00:49:27,160 we go back to the idea of survival of the fittest or adapt 960 00:49:27,160 --> 00:49:31,720 or adapt or die there, there there's, there's challenges with 961 00:49:31,720 --> 00:49:34,120 every choice that that you make, right? 962 00:49:34,120 --> 00:49:38,520 And I think, again, this kind of ties back to if you make this 963 00:49:38,520 --> 00:49:41,960 decision in a conscious way, then or a decision in a 964 00:49:41,960 --> 00:49:46,320 conscious way then, and it's always a good decision in that 965 00:49:46,320 --> 00:49:49,280 sense, no matter what, no matter what the outcome is. 966 00:49:49,280 --> 00:49:52,840 But I agree with you. And maybe that's also the 967 00:49:52,840 --> 00:49:54,160 technological age that we live in. 968 00:49:54,160 --> 00:49:56,920 There's just endless distraction, right? 969 00:49:56,920 --> 00:49:59,480 There's endless distraction. I mean, when I discovered 970 00:49:59,480 --> 00:50:02,360 Etherium at $7.00, I was like, holy shit, this is going to be 971 00:50:02,360 --> 00:50:06,080 the decentralized computer of the universe or something like 972 00:50:06,080 --> 00:50:10,760 that. I mean, it's logical that you 973 00:50:10,760 --> 00:50:14,280 find new and shiny things along the way, but the actual effort 974 00:50:14,280 --> 00:50:17,960 is in understanding what is the, what is the true thing that I 975 00:50:17,960 --> 00:50:20,240 should focus on. And once you get there, that's 976 00:50:20,240 --> 00:50:23,720 what actually gives you, I'd say rest there, a space in your head 977 00:50:23,720 --> 00:50:25,640 as well. That's exactly right. 978 00:50:25,640 --> 00:50:29,840 Like that. That is the wisdom versus the 979 00:50:29,840 --> 00:50:33,680 knowledge because I saw this in when I got into space like 980 00:50:33,680 --> 00:50:36,720 20/17/2018, I was living in New York and I end up working for 981 00:50:36,720 --> 00:50:40,160 the block for a very brief period. 982 00:50:40,320 --> 00:50:42,760 And they all thought I was an insane Luddite because I was a 983 00:50:42,760 --> 00:50:46,080 Bitcoiner and they loved everything under the sun. 984 00:50:46,080 --> 00:50:48,800 The tokenomics, and it was specifically people from 985 00:50:48,800 --> 00:50:50,600 Columbia. That's where a lot of the crypto 986 00:50:50,600 --> 00:50:53,280 people that came in from, you know, prominent school in New 987 00:50:53,280 --> 00:50:56,000 York City. And it ties to the same theme 988 00:50:56,000 --> 00:50:58,400 you're talking about. It's the same type of individual 989 00:50:58,400 --> 00:51:02,080 that loves the financialization of this asset and what's 990 00:51:02,080 --> 00:51:04,160 happening. It's just it's eerily similar to 991 00:51:04,160 --> 00:51:06,920 the tokenomics of how do you like structure a token to 992 00:51:06,920 --> 00:51:10,040 accrete value is very similar to what we're seeing at a higher 993 00:51:10,040 --> 00:51:14,440 level with larger liquidity pool where the real wisdom is the 994 00:51:14,440 --> 00:51:17,880 money is meant to be this, this notion of optionality for you to 995 00:51:17,880 --> 00:51:20,000 get the space to do what you were supposed to do, not 996 00:51:20,000 --> 00:51:22,800 financialize the products. And that's where like, you know, 997 00:51:22,800 --> 00:51:25,560 Parker has a great piece called the bitcoins, the great D 998 00:51:25,560 --> 00:51:28,880 financialization, right? It's the notion of getting away 999 00:51:28,880 --> 00:51:32,240 from this. And so I think that's just the 1000 00:51:32,240 --> 00:51:36,480 core part that goes back to and then this goes back. 1001 00:51:36,480 --> 00:51:39,520 I think what we all where I was referencing, explaining to our 1002 00:51:39,520 --> 00:51:42,920 children, like just these timeless wisdoms, it goes back 1003 00:51:42,920 --> 00:51:45,280 to these biblical texts. I'm not like overly religious, 1004 00:51:45,280 --> 00:51:47,560 but there's a reason why these texts have lasted for thousands 1005 00:51:47,560 --> 00:51:50,360 of years. And they ultimately breakdown 1006 00:51:50,360 --> 00:51:53,200 about like this notion of false idols and that everyone's 1007 00:51:53,200 --> 00:51:56,440 chasing these like shiny objects or whatever was in vogue at the 1008 00:51:56,440 --> 00:51:58,800 time. And they ultimately over like a 1009 00:51:58,800 --> 00:52:01,200 long enough time horizon, get smited or they're just kind of 1010 00:52:01,200 --> 00:52:03,400 like wiped away because they were missing the signal to the 1011 00:52:03,400 --> 00:52:05,040 noise, which was pretty straightforward. 1012 00:52:05,040 --> 00:52:08,480 It wasn't complex, but it's a hard thing to do when groupthink 1013 00:52:08,480 --> 00:52:11,160 is participating in that. And that's what the group think 1014 00:52:11,160 --> 00:52:13,280 is today. Is this like notion of public 1015 00:52:13,280 --> 00:52:15,680 treasury. It's demand liquidity, all these 1016 00:52:15,680 --> 00:52:18,240 things that are positive for pumping the bags, but ultimately 1017 00:52:18,240 --> 00:52:20,840 going to leave a lot of people with less Bitcoin than they 1018 00:52:20,840 --> 00:52:25,680 would have already had. And nobody's really I think 1019 00:52:25,680 --> 00:52:28,160 we're going to get more and more people talking about it because 1020 00:52:28,160 --> 00:52:31,680 the scary part is really in 105 K and this is happening. 1021 00:52:31,680 --> 00:52:35,280 I had a call this past week with an individual that owned a bunch 1022 00:52:35,280 --> 00:52:38,240 of restaurants and wanted to felt like he missed the boat. 1023 00:52:38,240 --> 00:52:40,760 This guy's wealthy feels like he missed the boat and buying 1024 00:52:40,760 --> 00:52:42,440 Bitcoin for his corporate balance sheet. 1025 00:52:42,800 --> 00:52:45,160 And so now wants to go and extend a bunch of leverage and 1026 00:52:45,160 --> 00:52:48,760 and was just bringing up all these different very like risky 1027 00:52:48,760 --> 00:52:51,520 concepts. And so that's where I think we 1028 00:52:51,520 --> 00:52:55,360 go much higher than we expect, but probably also retrace 1029 00:52:55,360 --> 00:52:58,560 significantly again with the volatility because I think 1030 00:52:58,560 --> 00:53:01,720 there's going to be a lot of leverage from the uninitiated 1031 00:53:01,720 --> 00:53:03,760 because like a lot of this stuff, we can have pattern 1032 00:53:03,760 --> 00:53:05,440 recognition from the past eight years. 1033 00:53:05,840 --> 00:53:09,680 And this like looks very similar just at a larger scale than what 1034 00:53:09,680 --> 00:53:13,080 we saw previously in crypto. But a lot of people have no idea 1035 00:53:13,080 --> 00:53:14,800 what happened before. And so they're going to think 1036 00:53:14,800 --> 00:53:17,480 about leverage who their counterpart is with custody when 1037 00:53:17,480 --> 00:53:20,520 they take out loans to the volatility and the profiles that 1038 00:53:20,520 --> 00:53:22,160 are created. And it's just going to end up 1039 00:53:22,240 --> 00:53:24,840 kind of we're going to redo the the same things we've done 1040 00:53:24,840 --> 00:53:28,480 before. Do you think the cycles then are 1041 00:53:28,480 --> 00:53:33,320 still in play or will there be like an 80% drawdown or 40 or 1042 00:53:33,320 --> 00:53:35,480 50? I mean, as you're sharing it 1043 00:53:35,480 --> 00:53:39,000 now, it seems like you are expecting like a big a big 1044 00:53:39,000 --> 00:53:42,800 retrace. Yeah, I think, I think we 1045 00:53:42,800 --> 00:53:45,760 probably go higher than we expect and then we do retrace 1046 00:53:45,760 --> 00:53:48,520 because of the leverage. I think the thing that's I don't 1047 00:53:48,520 --> 00:53:54,920 know what people sell for. So what I think happens is it's 1048 00:53:54,920 --> 00:53:57,400 not a popular sentiment, but like nobody ever talks about 1049 00:53:57,400 --> 00:54:00,200 what happened with Block Fi and FTX and all the people that blew 1050 00:54:00,200 --> 00:54:02,440 up and where did that Bitcoin went because a lot of people 1051 00:54:02,440 --> 00:54:04,320 thought they had Bitcoin and it just disappeared. 1052 00:54:05,120 --> 00:54:08,720 It reminds me of like, you know, the capital that goes into the 1053 00:54:08,720 --> 00:54:11,920 US political system and Ukraine specifically, or Afghanistan. 1054 00:54:11,920 --> 00:54:14,320 I think there was $2 trillion we went and we know a lot of it 1055 00:54:14,320 --> 00:54:15,880 ends up in different people's pockets. 1056 00:54:17,200 --> 00:54:19,600 And so FTX block file, all that people just wipe their hands, 1057 00:54:19,600 --> 00:54:22,880 animal spirits, crypto D Gen. san SPF and then we go away. 1058 00:54:23,480 --> 00:54:25,680 And I think similar thing happens here where a lot of 1059 00:54:25,680 --> 00:54:28,080 money is going to be lost in this next cycle. 1060 00:54:28,080 --> 00:54:30,320 And then maybe it doesn't get sold for dollars. 1061 00:54:30,320 --> 00:54:32,600 So it doesn't 'cause as much of A retrace, but people don't be 1062 00:54:32,600 --> 00:54:35,080 like, oh, where did it go? And it just got it, it blew up 1063 00:54:35,080 --> 00:54:37,240 and it's somewhere. And I think that's what these 1064 00:54:37,240 --> 00:54:40,400 large honeypots end up being is like ways where it gets funneled 1065 00:54:40,400 --> 00:54:43,160 into, you know, other other people's pockets that definitely 1066 00:54:43,160 --> 00:54:45,040 aren't the people that were putting in their dollars and 1067 00:54:45,040 --> 00:54:46,520 expecting more Bitcoin out of it. 1068 00:54:47,200 --> 00:54:53,080 Yeah, in in a previous conversation, I think I saw you 1069 00:54:53,080 --> 00:54:56,920 highlight something about the dangers of, of, of groupthink. 1070 00:54:56,920 --> 00:55:01,120 And especially now that we are talking about like the future, 1071 00:55:01,120 --> 00:55:03,600 how can you think for yourself, right? 1072 00:55:03,600 --> 00:55:08,880 Or how do you go back to kind of like first principles thinking? 1073 00:55:10,800 --> 00:55:12,200 Yeah. What are kind of like the blind 1074 00:55:12,200 --> 00:55:15,480 spots that you that you are noticing maybe maybe even in, in 1075 00:55:15,480 --> 00:55:21,440 Bitcoin as well of, of people that are yeah, kind of becoming 1076 00:55:21,440 --> 00:55:23,840 complacent or or maybe lazy in their thinking? 1077 00:55:25,360 --> 00:55:28,320 I think it goes back to what we talked about it of. 1078 00:55:28,320 --> 00:55:30,440 Like, I think the closer somebody really deeply 1079 00:55:30,440 --> 00:55:33,080 understands Bitcoin, everything starts to become a lot more 1080 00:55:33,160 --> 00:55:36,240 transparent or apparent, and it all just ties back to truth. 1081 00:55:36,240 --> 00:55:38,640 Like Bitcoin's just a fair Ledger. 1082 00:55:38,640 --> 00:55:42,320 It's the version of meritocracy, accountability, because you have 1083 00:55:42,320 --> 00:55:46,720 to produce value to get it. And so I think over time, as 1084 00:55:46,720 --> 00:55:51,440 individuals got Bitcoin, it's easy to romanticize whatever 1085 00:55:51,440 --> 00:55:54,400 version of the story you like. So if self custody, self 1086 00:55:54,400 --> 00:55:57,120 sovereignty is the thing and we're all going to be, you know, 1087 00:55:57,280 --> 00:56:00,440 in our citadels, well, then you stop really thinking past that 1088 00:56:00,440 --> 00:56:02,920 and thinking about what is the like commercial viability of 1089 00:56:02,920 --> 00:56:04,960 that? Like how is grandma going to buy 1090 00:56:04,960 --> 00:56:07,880 100% of her wealth there, right. And so like, that's part of 1091 00:56:07,880 --> 00:56:10,560 that. I think group think we're I, you 1092 00:56:10,560 --> 00:56:11,920 know, and I've been involved in a lot of this. 1093 00:56:11,920 --> 00:56:15,240 So like I can speak first hand to believe it, but also just see 1094 00:56:15,240 --> 00:56:17,680 that the blind spots, that's one angle. 1095 00:56:17,680 --> 00:56:20,360 The other angle is the opposite, which is like, oh, people can't 1096 00:56:20,360 --> 00:56:22,920 get exposure to Bitcoin so by my public treasury because that 1097 00:56:22,920 --> 00:56:25,560 gives them access. And that's like another version 1098 00:56:25,560 --> 00:56:27,440 of group think of like just rationally thinking, is this 1099 00:56:27,440 --> 00:56:29,640 going to end up good for everyone, including myself and 1100 00:56:29,640 --> 00:56:32,400 my reputation? And so I think those are the 1101 00:56:32,400 --> 00:56:35,760 notions of like just deeply thinking about like, what's the 1102 00:56:35,760 --> 00:56:38,320 logical progression? How would these things play out? 1103 00:56:38,320 --> 00:56:42,160 Where do they go? And then an angle again, I know 1104 00:56:42,160 --> 00:56:44,080 it sounds like talking our book, but it's like this notion of 1105 00:56:44,080 --> 00:56:47,320 multi institution custody. It's an aspect of like, how 1106 00:56:47,320 --> 00:56:50,280 could this really play out from a sovereign or individual that 1107 00:56:50,280 --> 00:56:54,080 actually was accretive and conducive to the network's 1108 00:56:54,080 --> 00:56:57,000 proliferation? If you saw yesterday, I, I think 1109 00:56:57,000 --> 00:56:58,880 the devil's in the details and they weren't saying they were 1110 00:56:58,880 --> 00:57:00,880 going to sell or seize their Bitcoin, but it was in 1111 00:57:00,880 --> 00:57:04,320 California about an exchange. If you leave it there and then 1112 00:57:04,320 --> 00:57:07,120 if you pass or you don't touch those assets for three years, 1113 00:57:07,560 --> 00:57:10,640 that the state could take them or or take them into possession. 1114 00:57:11,320 --> 00:57:14,640 But you can see how if they don't have the ability to, then 1115 00:57:14,640 --> 00:57:16,920 it kind of kneecaps that that proposition. 1116 00:57:16,920 --> 00:57:21,240 And in general or taxes, but also, so it's this notion. 1117 00:57:21,240 --> 00:57:24,640 Well, you don't want a single counterparty, whether you're a 1118 00:57:24,640 --> 00:57:26,920 sovereign or an individual, but you also don't want it all in 1119 00:57:26,920 --> 00:57:28,480 your house. Because if everyone knows Braun 1120 00:57:28,480 --> 00:57:30,400 keeps all this Bitcoin in his house, well, that's not good for 1121 00:57:30,400 --> 00:57:32,840 him or his family. And those are only, there's only 1122 00:57:32,840 --> 00:57:33,720 one. I did two options. 1123 00:57:33,720 --> 00:57:36,960 You have the hardcore Bitcoin that says, put it on my Ledger 1124 00:57:36,960 --> 00:57:38,960 or whatever and write down my 12 words. 1125 00:57:38,960 --> 00:57:41,480 Well, that's not really conducive to inheritance and all 1126 00:57:41,480 --> 00:57:43,840 the things associated. And then the other side of it is 1127 00:57:43,840 --> 00:57:48,440 like, trust my ETF, my corporate treasury or my single custodian. 1128 00:57:48,480 --> 00:57:51,240 And we know how gold failed. And so these are examples of 1129 00:57:51,240 --> 00:57:52,640 this. And just like really thinking 1130 00:57:52,680 --> 00:57:55,600 hard and earnestly, even if it's the joke of do you want to make 1131 00:57:55,600 --> 00:57:56,760 money or do you want to be right? 1132 00:57:57,760 --> 00:58:00,680 It's not really those topics. It's more of the notion, Do you 1133 00:58:00,680 --> 00:58:04,480 want to be right and have your version of the world because you 1134 00:58:04,480 --> 00:58:07,920 love that version, be the thing and you be hard nosed about it. 1135 00:58:07,920 --> 00:58:10,440 Or do you just want to like go with what will be commercially 1136 00:58:10,440 --> 00:58:12,720 viable? Because I think that's like 1137 00:58:12,760 --> 00:58:15,800 ultimately what is the deciding factor around good entrepreneurs 1138 00:58:15,800 --> 00:58:18,880 is around taste and it's taste for what the market's appetite 1139 00:58:18,880 --> 00:58:20,120 will be. And that's where Steve Jobs 1140 00:58:20,120 --> 00:58:22,640 understood that from the design of the phone all the way to the 1141 00:58:22,640 --> 00:58:25,120 experience through the application is you got to like 1142 00:58:25,120 --> 00:58:27,480 have a good feel for what the market will want. 1143 00:58:27,840 --> 00:58:30,680 And I think that's like a a big thing that's like missing in the 1144 00:58:30,680 --> 00:58:33,080 Bitcoin space is just understanding what is relevant. 1145 00:58:33,080 --> 00:58:36,280 Not for us that listen to this pod, but for the next 100 1146 00:58:36,280 --> 00:58:38,600 million, the next billion people, like what will they 1147 00:58:38,600 --> 00:58:41,560 actually consume that won't leave them scratching their head 1148 00:58:41,560 --> 00:58:44,640 or just rather go into negative yielding bonds or corporate 1149 00:58:44,640 --> 00:58:47,080 treasuries? Because it just makes more sense 1150 00:58:47,080 --> 00:58:51,160 to do that. It's funny because to understand 1151 00:58:51,160 --> 00:58:55,320 Bitcoin you have to kind of like diverge, right? 1152 00:58:55,320 --> 00:59:00,680 And really study multiple subjects. 1153 00:59:01,320 --> 00:59:06,080 But then when you're like totally in in Bitcoin, you have 1154 00:59:06,080 --> 00:59:11,080 to kind of like broaden your scope again to see how can I 1155 00:59:11,080 --> 00:59:13,400 help this actually fit into the world, right? 1156 00:59:13,400 --> 00:59:17,640 Because the first part of going very broad is to understand what 1157 00:59:17,640 --> 00:59:21,520 is Bitcoins place in the world? Like what is the problem that it 1158 00:59:21,520 --> 00:59:24,200 actually solves? Why is this problem really bad? 1159 00:59:24,200 --> 00:59:26,560 Why can't we get out of it in any other way? 1160 00:59:27,000 --> 00:59:29,160 Right. OK, so this Bitcoin thing should 1161 00:59:29,160 --> 00:59:30,920 exist. But then after that, OK, what 1162 00:59:30,920 --> 00:59:35,600 what, what can I actually do to either get more people onto this 1163 00:59:35,600 --> 00:59:39,560 thing or build products and services for them that can 1164 00:59:39,560 --> 00:59:43,640 actually help? I would say cement bitcoins 1165 00:59:43,640 --> 00:59:45,040 place actually in the world, right. 1166 00:59:45,040 --> 00:59:50,440 So it's kind of if if we talk in corporate consultants speak like 1167 00:59:50,440 --> 00:59:54,080 the double diamond, you know, you know that, you know the so 1168 00:59:54,080 --> 00:59:57,080 you like you, you divert, you convert, you divert, you 1169 00:59:57,080 --> 00:59:59,320 convert. So yeah, it's like 2-2 diamonds 1170 00:59:59,320 --> 01:00:01,800 next to each other I think. That's, I think that's like, 1171 01:00:03,520 --> 01:00:06,400 that's like life, right? You zig and zag and it reminds 1172 01:00:06,400 --> 01:00:08,160 me of poker. If you ever play poker, like the 1173 01:00:08,160 --> 01:00:12,240 best skilled poker players are play loose and tight because you 1174 01:00:12,240 --> 01:00:14,840 play tight and the more the the people against you start to 1175 01:00:14,840 --> 01:00:17,360 believe you're playing too tight and then you switch to being 1176 01:00:17,360 --> 01:00:18,760 loose. And then when they think you're 1177 01:00:18,760 --> 01:00:21,640 playing tight, you know, like that's how you actually win in 1178 01:00:21,640 --> 01:00:23,440 the game of life. You cannot actually, you can't 1179 01:00:23,440 --> 01:00:26,880 go in deep One Direction because you'll end up with a myopic view 1180 01:00:26,880 --> 01:00:28,320 of the world. And I think that's. 1181 01:00:28,760 --> 01:00:32,040 Yeah. So what's a contrarian or under 1182 01:00:32,040 --> 01:00:37,280 appreciated view you hold about Bitcoin or AI or or energy for 1183 01:00:37,280 --> 01:00:39,920 that matter that that you wish more people would consider? 1184 01:00:40,000 --> 01:00:42,360 And you cannot mention gold. No kidding. 1185 01:00:44,720 --> 01:00:46,840 God, I don't know. I feel like everything, I mean, 1186 01:00:46,840 --> 01:00:49,920 we, we do pods all the time. I feel like you hear me talk 1187 01:00:49,920 --> 01:00:52,400 about enough things that are potentially contrarian. 1188 01:00:53,800 --> 01:00:55,680 So I don't, I don't know if you're using. 1189 01:00:55,680 --> 01:00:58,720 I feel like everything I kind of said is a little bit taboo at 1190 01:00:58,720 --> 01:01:01,960 this point. Or maybe to think it gets you 1191 01:01:01,960 --> 01:01:03,240 most push. Back or something? 1192 01:01:05,560 --> 01:01:07,240 Well, I mean, I definitely think gold and Bitcoin are going to 1193 01:01:07,240 --> 01:01:11,360 persist much longer than people want or, or believe, but that's 1194 01:01:11,360 --> 01:01:15,360 not fun. I, I, I think there's something 1195 01:01:15,360 --> 01:01:20,320 to ultimately like the energy markets. 1196 01:01:20,720 --> 01:01:22,240 This would be fun that you'll appreciate. 1197 01:01:22,240 --> 01:01:24,360 And I still need to read this. It's back here. 1198 01:01:24,360 --> 01:01:26,960 And because I've only read like a portion of it, it's called the 1199 01:01:26,960 --> 01:01:29,360 prize, the epic quest for oil money and power. 1200 01:01:29,760 --> 01:01:33,440 And I'm convinced that that book has the answers to everything 1201 01:01:33,440 --> 01:01:36,280 you just asked because when you really extrapolate where all 1202 01:01:36,280 --> 01:01:39,280 geopolitical tensions come to, they have to deal with natural 1203 01:01:39,280 --> 01:01:44,600 resources, specifically oil. And there's a notion that's 1204 01:01:44,600 --> 01:01:47,840 talked to us called the Nakamoto point, where all the oil or 1205 01:01:47,840 --> 01:01:50,640 energy production starts to hit a 50% where it's either used for 1206 01:01:50,640 --> 01:01:54,000 Bitcoin mining or used for civilization and, and power 1207 01:01:54,000 --> 01:01:57,360 production. And I think once the markets 1208 01:01:57,360 --> 01:02:00,520 understand that you can take energy from the ground and then 1209 01:02:00,520 --> 01:02:03,800 either sell them into, you know, whatever the Fiat currency is or 1210 01:02:03,800 --> 01:02:09,280 mine it to Bitcoin, you basically you take out the 1211 01:02:09,280 --> 01:02:11,840 position for geopolitical tension because you don't have 1212 01:02:11,840 --> 01:02:14,280 to do these different trade agreements in different angles. 1213 01:02:14,280 --> 01:02:17,120 You can basically source it and then turn it into digital oil, 1214 01:02:17,120 --> 01:02:19,680 which is Bitcoin and then go. And I think that's something 1215 01:02:19,680 --> 01:02:21,920 that I haven't fully had the time to think through, but 1216 01:02:21,920 --> 01:02:24,400 that's where this all goes is you actually are able to reduce 1217 01:02:24,400 --> 01:02:26,400 because that's why the Middle East is the Middle East, right? 1218 01:02:26,680 --> 01:02:29,160 They have all this money, they have all this natural resources 1219 01:02:29,160 --> 01:02:31,520 and everyone's vying for how do they get that energy? 1220 01:02:31,520 --> 01:02:34,440 Like Arthur Hayes has a really good notion of everything he 1221 01:02:34,440 --> 01:02:37,440 measures in a barrel, a barrel of oil, like he doesn't hold the 1222 01:02:37,440 --> 01:02:39,360 barrels of oil, but like everything he's measuring when 1223 01:02:39,360 --> 01:02:41,800 he's to make in a trade is on the barrels of oil because 1224 01:02:41,880 --> 01:02:45,080 barrels of oil are a proxy for human productivity, because you 1225 01:02:45,080 --> 01:02:49,520 need more petroleum to, to live. And so it's like how much is 1226 01:02:49,720 --> 01:02:53,840 more gold in Bitcoin or in barrels of oil or gold and, or 1227 01:02:53,840 --> 01:02:56,840 other assets? And so I think that's the, and, 1228 01:02:56,840 --> 01:02:59,920 and then AI is that last piece because we know you need energy 1229 01:02:59,920 --> 01:03:02,720 for the data centers. And so those things are all 1230 01:03:02,720 --> 01:03:04,880 about to start to converge together. 1231 01:03:05,680 --> 01:03:08,760 And it's really hard to see without being studying those 1232 01:03:08,760 --> 01:03:10,160 disciplines and having those backgrounds. 1233 01:03:10,160 --> 01:03:13,840 But you can't like salt, but see how they all like intertwine. 1234 01:03:13,840 --> 01:03:17,240 And then the, the AI Bitcoin thing is like Bitcoin's what's 1235 01:03:17,240 --> 01:03:19,520 going to keep AI from killing us because you're actually going to 1236 01:03:19,520 --> 01:03:21,800 need to make, it's going to, it's going to keep it honest 1237 01:03:21,800 --> 01:03:25,680 versus being able to plug in and somebody just pay a dollars to 1238 01:03:25,680 --> 01:03:30,120 do what it needs to do. So last last question to wrap 1239 01:03:30,120 --> 01:03:36,440 up, what makes you most bullish on Bitcoins evolving role in the 1240 01:03:36,440 --> 01:03:40,360 global financial system over the next decade, let's say until 1241 01:03:40,560 --> 01:03:45,960 20332034 when you know 99% of all Bitcoin has been mined? 1242 01:03:47,520 --> 01:03:51,960 I think the truth the the truest thing that is so 1243 01:03:51,960 --> 01:03:54,200 underappreciated is the peer-to-peer stuff. 1244 01:03:54,880 --> 01:03:58,960 Like if we go down, the logical progression of this is where 1245 01:03:58,960 --> 01:04:01,200 I'll caveat with the public codes, like everything's good 1246 01:04:01,200 --> 01:04:03,440 for Bitcoin. So even though I said it's bad 1247 01:04:03,440 --> 01:04:07,080 for the individual, if the price goes up, that's the ultimate 1248 01:04:07,080 --> 01:04:10,320 like proxy for awareness. And then people start to learn 1249 01:04:10,320 --> 01:04:13,400 and they want to receive that asset, right? 1250 01:04:13,400 --> 01:04:15,960 It's just a logical thing that somebody would want to buy it or 1251 01:04:16,160 --> 01:04:17,840 accept for their goods and services. 1252 01:04:17,840 --> 01:04:21,520 That underlying asset. And the notion that me and you 1253 01:04:22,000 --> 01:04:25,120 can transact without any intermediary is the most bullish 1254 01:04:25,120 --> 01:04:27,040 thing on the planet earth because that means you can't 1255 01:04:27,040 --> 01:04:29,480 stop it. So as more and more people 1256 01:04:29,480 --> 01:04:32,480 recognize they want Bitcoin and their goods and services will 1257 01:04:32,480 --> 01:04:35,280 either be denominated or accepted in it, that's how this 1258 01:04:35,280 --> 01:04:37,400 all wins. Because you it's impossible to 1259 01:04:37,400 --> 01:04:39,240 stop. It's just like water flowing 1260 01:04:39,240 --> 01:04:42,600 downhill. And so that's that, that's 1261 01:04:42,600 --> 01:04:44,560 what's most like exciting. And it's like they're still, 1262 01:04:44,560 --> 01:04:46,720 it's still starting because Bitcoins like a store of value, 1263 01:04:46,720 --> 01:04:48,800 right? It's not really used as much as 1264 01:04:48,800 --> 01:04:51,880 we would want or see as an intermediary or medium of 1265 01:04:51,880 --> 01:04:53,120 exchange. But that's only going to 1266 01:04:53,120 --> 01:04:56,200 naturally grow as more people appreciate the underline and 1267 01:04:56,200 --> 01:05:00,640 want to be paid in it. Yeah, I, I, I fully agree. 1268 01:05:00,640 --> 01:05:05,440 I think this is also what many people miss in the sense is that 1269 01:05:06,600 --> 01:05:08,760 this monetary revolution is slow. 1270 01:05:09,160 --> 01:05:11,800 Like it's slow. So 1st, it's me. 1271 01:05:11,800 --> 01:05:18,560 It's, it's store of value, which has like 400 is an opportunity 1272 01:05:18,560 --> 01:05:23,600 of like 450 trillion or even 900 trillion if you, if you count 1273 01:05:23,600 --> 01:05:27,920 everything right. But that, that the problem that 1274 01:05:27,920 --> 01:05:30,840 that solves is way more prominent than the need for a 1275 01:05:30,840 --> 01:05:33,240 better currency to exchange with each other. 1276 01:05:33,240 --> 01:05:36,560 Because for many people, that works, right? 1277 01:05:36,560 --> 01:05:41,160 But keeping the value that that that the economic value or the, 1278 01:05:41,160 --> 01:05:44,560 OR the purchasing power that that you've gathered, keeping 1279 01:05:44,560 --> 01:05:46,720 that towards the future, lowering your uncertainty 1280 01:05:46,720 --> 01:05:53,640 towards the future is a more proficient use case and need 1281 01:05:53,640 --> 01:05:56,360 that people have now. And so I, I like what you said 1282 01:05:56,360 --> 01:05:58,280 because I think that's also where we are going. 1283 01:05:58,280 --> 01:06:04,280 But I think there are certain phases that people are very 1284 01:06:04,280 --> 01:06:07,360 rigid about when they read like the white paper and it's like 1285 01:06:07,360 --> 01:06:09,680 peer-to-peer electronic cash. And they're like, yeah, that's 1286 01:06:09,680 --> 01:06:11,960 what it should be. And then I, I usually think like 1287 01:06:11,960 --> 01:06:14,880 that's what it already is. Like I can buy your shirt and 1288 01:06:14,880 --> 01:06:17,360 send you Bitcoin now. Like we can already do that. 1289 01:06:17,360 --> 01:06:21,920 Like it, it is that, but the social adoption is just not 1290 01:06:21,920 --> 01:06:28,040 there because there are better air quotes solutions already 1291 01:06:28,040 --> 01:06:30,280 available for people and and they they don't really 1292 01:06:30,280 --> 01:06:33,000 understand yet why they would need a better currency as well. 1293 01:06:33,000 --> 01:06:37,280 So I think, I think many people need patience in that sense. 1294 01:06:38,200 --> 01:06:40,200 Yeah. I mean, I think, I know we need 1295 01:06:40,200 --> 01:06:42,440 a wrap, but that's where you to even bring it up. 1296 01:06:42,440 --> 01:06:43,920 And I know it's your favorite and I like it. 1297 01:06:43,920 --> 01:06:46,960 It's the gunpowder. I think you've probably been all 1298 01:06:46,960 --> 01:06:48,240 in. I'm assuming you have been 1299 01:06:48,240 --> 01:06:52,360 because you have this level of Zen that you've held gunpowder 1300 01:06:52,800 --> 01:06:54,440 for much longer than everyone else. 1301 01:06:54,600 --> 01:06:56,960 And what that means is being like, you know, recognizing 1302 01:06:56,960 --> 01:06:59,400 Bitcoin probably is the vast majority of your wealth and how 1303 01:06:59,400 --> 01:07:02,800 you store it. And you drastically, 1304 01:07:02,840 --> 01:07:07,000 disproportionately outpace everyone else from their return 1305 01:07:07,000 --> 01:07:09,960 profile to the opportunity set that you've created for yourself 1306 01:07:09,960 --> 01:07:12,640 versus others. Why I'm bringing this up is 1307 01:07:12,640 --> 01:07:15,200 because this is what the corporate treasury and a lot of 1308 01:07:15,200 --> 01:07:18,200 this other stuff has done is most people think of Bitcoin as 1309 01:07:18,200 --> 01:07:20,520 a trade or a small percentage of their portfolio. 1310 01:07:20,520 --> 01:07:23,160 So they're looking at other proxies to do it versus 1311 01:07:23,160 --> 01:07:28,160 understanding this is just money and it's super like profound and 1312 01:07:28,360 --> 01:07:30,120 revolutionary that you can buy this thing. 1313 01:07:30,120 --> 01:07:33,040 It doesn't get debased, it increases in purchasing power 1314 01:07:33,040 --> 01:07:34,680 and then you don't have to worry about it anymore. 1315 01:07:34,720 --> 01:07:38,320 Like that foundational thing is not absorbed by the market. 1316 01:07:38,320 --> 01:07:40,200 So they buy little percentages of it. 1317 01:07:40,200 --> 01:07:42,800 And even the hardest core people that you see on Twitter that are 1318 01:07:42,800 --> 01:07:46,000 like, you know, thought leaders where people allowed have like 1319 01:07:46,000 --> 01:07:49,160 5% or 1015%, they haven't come to this understanding that 1320 01:07:49,160 --> 01:07:51,560 Bitcoin is the thing. And then they can just go back 1321 01:07:51,560 --> 01:07:53,760 to their life and do it. Because once you get there, you 1322 01:07:53,760 --> 01:07:57,440 realize the counterparty risk reduction, you know, the aspect 1323 01:07:57,440 --> 01:07:59,000 of the execution, like everything that Bitcoins 1324 01:07:59,000 --> 01:08:00,920 properties have, you're like, well, why would I do anything 1325 01:08:00,920 --> 01:08:03,560 else other than hold it? And like, obviously there's 1326 01:08:03,600 --> 01:08:05,880 money's meant to be spent so you can do it, but it's not to like 1327 01:08:05,880 --> 01:08:08,720 make more Bitcoin based on these other things, but people that 1328 01:08:08,720 --> 01:08:11,040 have smaller position size and that's how they think because 1329 01:08:11,040 --> 01:08:13,880 they don't understand Bitcoin is the last trade. 1330 01:08:14,320 --> 01:08:17,520 And so that's like the big like unlock is to your point, these 1331 01:08:17,520 --> 01:08:20,399 people will eventually just wake up that have been mired by 1332 01:08:20,399 --> 01:08:24,279 hyperinflation and capital controls and cut and money being 1333 01:08:24,279 --> 01:08:26,680 seized from their banking accounts, realizing how powerful 1334 01:08:26,680 --> 01:08:29,399 it is to hold this asset, it not be debased at a creative 1335 01:08:29,399 --> 01:08:31,319 purchasing power. They're not going to sell it to 1336 01:08:31,319 --> 01:08:35,040 get into like MSTR or some pub Co because they might make a 1337 01:08:35,040 --> 01:08:36,920 little bit more Bitcoin. Like it's the most insane 1338 01:08:36,920 --> 01:08:39,240 proposition. And that guy ties back to it's 1339 01:08:39,240 --> 01:08:43,439 just an IKEA common sense test. But yeah, I. 1340 01:08:43,800 --> 01:08:46,840 I love that Bitcoin is the last trade. 1341 01:08:46,840 --> 01:08:48,840 That's a great. That's a great ender. 1342 01:08:49,160 --> 01:08:53,960 Well, there's a good place by that name. 1343 01:08:53,960 --> 01:08:55,120 Yeah. Check it out. 1344 01:08:55,640 --> 01:08:56,399 Check it out. Yeah. 1345 01:08:56,439 --> 01:08:58,040 Well, yeah. Thanks again, man. 1346 01:08:58,040 --> 01:09:01,800 Great conversation. And I hope, I hope this will 1347 01:09:01,800 --> 01:09:05,640 help some people prepare for a future where, you know, Bitcoin 1348 01:09:05,640 --> 01:09:09,080 and AI will probably reshape everything that we think we know 1349 01:09:09,080 --> 01:09:10,479 right now. So thanks, brother. 1350 01:09:10,600 --> 01:09:11,680 Thank you. Yeah. 1351 01:09:11,760 --> 01:09:12,760 Thanks for having me on. It's great. 1352 01:09:13,200 --> 01:09:15,200 Cheers. I hope you enjoyed this episode. 1353 01:09:15,279 --> 01:09:18,479 If you did, you can click here to find more just like it and 1354 01:09:18,479 --> 01:09:21,399 click here to find all Bitcoin for Millennials podcast 1355 01:09:21,479 --> 01:09:24,439 episodes. Also, please like this video if 1356 01:09:24,439 --> 01:09:27,040 you want to help shine a light on the message of Bitcoin and 1357 01:09:27,040 --> 01:09:29,279 subscribe to my channel. To stay connected. 1358 01:09:29,479 --> 01:09:31,200 I hope to see you for a next episode. 1359 01:09:31,640 --> 01:09:31,800 Bye.