1 00:00:01,280 --> 00:00:03,440 All right, hey there, this is Pram Konstein and you're 2 00:00:03,440 --> 00:00:05,200 listening to Bitcoin for Millennials. 3 00:00:05,200 --> 00:00:07,600 If you enjoyed this podcast, please consider giving a thumbs 4 00:00:07,600 --> 00:00:11,360 up and subscribing on YouTube or your favorite podcasting app. 5 00:00:11,760 --> 00:00:14,200 In this episode, I'm joined by Will Reeves. 6 00:00:14,400 --> 00:00:17,320 He's the CEO and Co founder of Fold, a company on a mission to 7 00:00:17,320 --> 00:00:19,480 bring Bitcoin to everyone through innovative and 8 00:00:19,480 --> 00:00:22,040 accessible methods. His experience in product design 9 00:00:22,040 --> 00:00:24,920 and user experience has made Fold a stand out in making 10 00:00:24,920 --> 00:00:27,040 Bitcoin more approachable to the general public. 11 00:00:27,440 --> 00:00:30,400 And Will's known for his insights on Bitcoin adoption and 12 00:00:30,400 --> 00:00:33,240 his efforts to lower entry barriers for everyone interested 13 00:00:33,240 --> 00:00:35,680 in engaging with the best money to ever exist. 14 00:00:35,680 --> 00:00:38,560 I've been a fan of what Will is building with faults, so I'm 15 00:00:38,560 --> 00:00:41,240 excited to talk with him again today. 16 00:00:41,240 --> 00:00:44,600 I think last time was over a year ago, but yeah, happy to see 17 00:00:44,600 --> 00:00:48,400 you again man. It's it's great to be here 18 00:00:48,400 --> 00:00:50,800 again, long time coming, but I think we have a lot of good 19 00:00:50,800 --> 00:00:54,560 stuff to talk about so. Yeah, man, as I said, or as you 20 00:00:54,560 --> 00:00:57,800 said, you, you are a bit rusty when it comes to podcast, but I 21 00:00:57,800 --> 00:01:01,280 think this is just a catch up of us and we're recording it and 22 00:01:01,280 --> 00:01:03,160 then of course thousands of people are going to hear it. 23 00:01:03,160 --> 00:01:06,760 But no, no pressure. We're just, we're just catching 24 00:01:06,760 --> 00:01:09,400 up. Just two friends talking about 25 00:01:09,400 --> 00:01:11,680 Bitcoin. I mean, that's a date that's 26 00:01:11,720 --> 00:01:13,240 probably every day for both of us. 27 00:01:13,240 --> 00:01:14,920 So we should, I should be OK, We'll see. 28 00:01:15,240 --> 00:01:16,440 I think you'll be fine. Yeah. 29 00:01:16,600 --> 00:01:21,200 So from what I remember from when when we talked previously, 30 00:01:21,200 --> 00:01:24,440 you were somewhat of a Bitcoin ogi think, right. 31 00:01:25,240 --> 00:01:28,840 What was your first encounter with Bitcoin and how did it 32 00:01:28,840 --> 00:01:32,720 change your perspective on? Well, let's start with money. 33 00:01:34,320 --> 00:01:37,000 Wow. Well, First off, I need to pause 34 00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:43,200 and say I reserve the title of Bitcoin OG for the giants on 35 00:01:43,200 --> 00:01:44,880 which I stand on their shoulders. 36 00:01:44,880 --> 00:01:51,720 So I well, definitely there's been probably 90% of the people 37 00:01:51,720 --> 00:01:55,000 that we currently interact with on Twitter or currently into the 38 00:01:55,000 --> 00:01:57,760 space weren't here even before 2017. 39 00:01:57,760 --> 00:02:00,040 And definitely I have a few years on them. 40 00:02:00,400 --> 00:02:04,360 There is definitely people who I consider the O GS and would be 41 00:02:05,320 --> 00:02:11,480 nowhere near that pantheon of of kind of luminaries and heroes 42 00:02:11,480 --> 00:02:13,600 that have that have come before. But I think that's always the 43 00:02:13,600 --> 00:02:15,320 case, right? There's always the O GS that 44 00:02:15,320 --> 00:02:19,760 come before. Now, it took me a while to get 45 00:02:19,800 --> 00:02:23,280 into Bitcoin per SE when when I mean into Bitcoin, it's like I'm 46 00:02:23,280 --> 00:02:26,720 going to dedicate not only my savings into it, but also my 47 00:02:26,720 --> 00:02:30,840 time and energy, which right now I'm about as far leveraged long 48 00:02:30,840 --> 00:02:32,560 in Bitcoin as you could possibly be. 49 00:02:32,560 --> 00:02:36,880 I live on Bitcoin every day. My company is a Bitcoin company. 50 00:02:37,880 --> 00:02:42,200 My friends are Bitcoiners. It's a, it's a, it's about as 51 00:02:42,200 --> 00:02:45,240 far on the spectrum as you can possibly get, but it wasn't 52 00:02:45,240 --> 00:02:48,960 always that way. And you know, I think it's 53 00:02:48,960 --> 00:02:55,760 definitely been a journey of, you know, education of, of 54 00:02:55,920 --> 00:02:59,160 learning humility and putting your ego aside because I had 55 00:02:59,160 --> 00:03:02,000 some of the most incredible experiences with Bitcoin in my 56 00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:04,720 early years before I got into it. 57 00:03:04,720 --> 00:03:10,080 I got to see how Bitcoin was being used as a, as a means of 58 00:03:10,280 --> 00:03:15,240 unstoppable remittances across borders to connect laborers and 59 00:03:15,240 --> 00:03:19,880 migrant workers in one country to their home country and in a 60 00:03:19,880 --> 00:03:21,200 way that they weren't being exploited. 61 00:03:21,200 --> 00:03:24,880 I got to see that very early. I grew up in the Sonoma Valley 62 00:03:24,880 --> 00:03:28,640 and my, my primary first jobs were just working on wineries 63 00:03:29,040 --> 00:03:32,960 during the summers and harvest. And so I got to see quite a bit 64 00:03:32,960 --> 00:03:37,760 of that. I spent time in Argentina and 65 00:03:38,080 --> 00:03:42,160 through after one of their major defaults and I met people there 66 00:03:42,160 --> 00:03:44,880 who were saving in Bitcoin, not not using it for payments, but 67 00:03:44,880 --> 00:03:50,600 just purely saving it to escape the effects of devaluation and 68 00:03:50,640 --> 00:03:55,280 and poor monetary policy. And so all of these are and I 69 00:03:55,280 --> 00:03:58,320 was living in San Francisco and seeing people, you know, create 70 00:03:58,320 --> 00:04:00,800 incredible startups from the first early San Francisco 71 00:04:00,800 --> 00:04:03,360 Bitcoin meetups. You know, you have a lot of the 72 00:04:03,720 --> 00:04:07,120 people behind some of the most, you know, the largest 73 00:04:07,120 --> 00:04:08,960 international exchanges started there. 74 00:04:09,760 --> 00:04:11,240 And that's where fold started too. 75 00:04:11,240 --> 00:04:15,080 Was was in those early years. We actually shared office space 76 00:04:15,320 --> 00:04:20,519 with Casa and bit refill in the very early days. 77 00:04:20,519 --> 00:04:24,160 And so it was a very small spot. But going from those first 78 00:04:24,160 --> 00:04:27,640 moments of experiencing Bitcoin to I'm, you know, I'm working on 79 00:04:27,640 --> 00:04:32,040 Bitcoin full time there. It took, it took me years and I 80 00:04:32,040 --> 00:04:34,880 think that's, I think it's pretty similar with with many 81 00:04:34,880 --> 00:04:36,080 people. Some people, I've heard people 82 00:04:36,080 --> 00:04:38,440 say it needed to hit you over the head three times before you 83 00:04:38,440 --> 00:04:39,840 truly can fall down the rabbit hole. 84 00:04:41,160 --> 00:04:46,480 Yeah, I can certainly attest to that like 10 years on and off 85 00:04:46,480 --> 00:04:53,320 until I think the last 3-4 ish years that have been really 86 00:04:53,640 --> 00:04:58,040 committed to to Bitcoin only maybe even maybe even shorter. 87 00:04:58,040 --> 00:04:59,880 But yeah, the understanding comes in waves. 88 00:04:59,880 --> 00:05:04,160 Was there was there anything that made you like not get it? 89 00:05:04,160 --> 00:05:07,040 Can you remember what like was part? 90 00:05:07,040 --> 00:05:12,280 Of your dismissal at first my own, my own ego, my own ego, my 91 00:05:12,280 --> 00:05:16,320 own, you know, thinking I am smarter or not understanding. 92 00:05:16,320 --> 00:05:17,520 So I think it was actually two things. 93 00:05:17,520 --> 00:05:19,800 It was both my own ego, it was also number. 94 00:05:19,800 --> 00:05:23,960 It was also not understanding the problem it was solving and 95 00:05:23,960 --> 00:05:26,800 thinking that the problem it was solving was something not 96 00:05:26,800 --> 00:05:29,880 relevant to me. I really came up and experienced 97 00:05:29,880 --> 00:05:34,920 Bitcoin first and foremost from a unstoppable payments and 98 00:05:34,920 --> 00:05:37,440 remittance perspective about being able to transfer value 99 00:05:37,440 --> 00:05:40,760 without intermediaries. I saw that in with the kind of 100 00:05:40,800 --> 00:05:43,480 situation I spoke about with migrant workers sending money 101 00:05:43,480 --> 00:05:48,120 back home. I dabbled a little bit in Occupy 102 00:05:48,120 --> 00:05:51,240 Wall Street in Oakland and we are actually all of Venmo and 103 00:05:51,240 --> 00:05:54,600 PayPal accounts were being shut down and so we started taking 104 00:05:55,200 --> 00:05:57,960 donations in Bitcoin. And I really just looked at it 105 00:05:57,960 --> 00:06:03,360 as this kind of fringe side, this tool for a limited set of 106 00:06:03,360 --> 00:06:04,680 people, but who really needed it. 107 00:06:04,680 --> 00:06:07,360 But maybe most of my life, I wouldn't need it, right? 108 00:06:07,360 --> 00:06:10,880 Being, you know, fairly privileged, living in the United 109 00:06:10,880 --> 00:06:14,800 States at the time of, you know, and growing up in the 90s when 110 00:06:15,080 --> 00:06:20,200 probably the last decade of full American, you know, ascension 111 00:06:20,200 --> 00:06:24,800 and dominance, it just didn't feel like it was necessarily for 112 00:06:24,800 --> 00:06:27,440 me. But I knew it could be valuable 113 00:06:27,440 --> 00:06:31,000 to other people. And so I think it was a little 114 00:06:31,000 --> 00:06:32,880 bit of that. It was also a little bit of my 115 00:06:32,880 --> 00:06:36,520 own ego about thinking I knew about money when I really 116 00:06:36,520 --> 00:06:40,400 didn't. Also a lot of smart people 117 00:06:40,400 --> 00:06:44,640 around me who I could, you know, who I, I, I trust they've been 118 00:06:44,640 --> 00:06:46,480 also not getting it. So it was this kind of self 119 00:06:46,480 --> 00:06:49,800 referential bubble that you had going. 120 00:06:49,800 --> 00:06:53,160 And it was really only until, you know, moments of meeting 121 00:06:53,160 --> 00:06:55,640 other Bitcoiners who had a different perspective on it and 122 00:06:55,640 --> 00:06:58,000 bringing it, which a lot happened in San Francisco at 123 00:06:58,000 --> 00:07:01,480 those Bitcoin meetups, meeting my Co founder, Matt Luongo, who 124 00:07:01,480 --> 00:07:05,200 brought his perspective, changed my mind. 125 00:07:05,200 --> 00:07:07,600 And a lot of it started to change when I realized, you 126 00:07:07,600 --> 00:07:09,800 know, hey, I, I'm an entrepreneur. 127 00:07:09,800 --> 00:07:13,080 I I'm always just going to be building things, bringing teams 128 00:07:13,080 --> 00:07:16,960 together to create cool stuff. Wait, I can do this with 129 00:07:16,960 --> 00:07:19,560 Bitcoin. I can run my business on this. 130 00:07:19,920 --> 00:07:24,680 That that skin in the game that both my money, my time 131 00:07:25,600 --> 00:07:27,840 accelerated everything. And so it started off with a 132 00:07:27,840 --> 00:07:31,360 curiosity, but went deeper. And I think one of the things 133 00:07:31,360 --> 00:07:33,800 that we try to do at fold because I think it is so 134 00:07:33,800 --> 00:07:37,080 powerful, is that it's hard for people to learn about Bitcoin 135 00:07:37,080 --> 00:07:40,320 and become convinced about Bitcoin by reading about it. 136 00:07:40,320 --> 00:07:42,720 Only you. There's a moment where you just 137 00:07:42,720 --> 00:07:46,080 have to actually get involved. You actually have to put some 138 00:07:46,080 --> 00:07:48,400 skin in the game. You actually have to start 139 00:07:48,400 --> 00:07:51,640 saving some of your your value of Bitcoin where you really 140 00:07:51,640 --> 00:07:55,720 start to learn that in a way that just being told or reading 141 00:07:55,720 --> 00:07:57,760 about something is not going to not going to really get you 142 00:07:57,760 --> 00:07:59,760 there. Can it can prime the pump, it 143 00:07:59,760 --> 00:08:03,280 can do a lot of good, but there's a, there's comes a point 144 00:08:03,280 --> 00:08:07,880 where you really need to jump in and that that can accelerate 145 00:08:07,880 --> 00:08:09,880 things and and change that process quite a bit. 146 00:08:10,520 --> 00:08:13,040 Does your Bitcoin custody setup keep you up at night? 147 00:08:13,280 --> 00:08:16,400 Gain Peace of Mind with On Ramp and their multi institution 148 00:08:16,400 --> 00:08:19,720 custody solution. 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I love what Zach and the team at 175 00:09:41,560 --> 00:09:44,120 Foundation are building and to learn more about their mission, 176 00:09:44,120 --> 00:09:47,160 please check out episode 27 of this podcast. 177 00:09:47,320 --> 00:09:49,960 If you consider buying a Foundation Passport, you can use 178 00:09:49,960 --> 00:09:56,240 code Brom that's Bram to get $10 off at Foundation dot XYZ slash 179 00:09:56,400 --> 00:09:58,960 Brom. I think a side question, you 180 00:09:58,960 --> 00:10:01,280 said you were with Occupy Wall Street. 181 00:10:01,280 --> 00:10:07,600 I remember I talked to Eric Case and and he said when he he was 182 00:10:07,600 --> 00:10:11,600 kind of disappointed with the Occupy Wall Street movement 183 00:10:11,600 --> 00:10:14,440 because like they understood the problem, they pointed to the 184 00:10:14,440 --> 00:10:17,040 problem. You just gave an example of you 185 00:10:17,080 --> 00:10:20,600 actually experienced, you know, your accounts being shut off, 186 00:10:20,600 --> 00:10:25,360 which I think you know is the is the perfect example of what the 187 00:10:25,360 --> 00:10:28,440 problem is. And and you even started using 188 00:10:28,440 --> 00:10:30,720 Bitcoin. Like, why do you think? 189 00:10:31,280 --> 00:10:34,000 Because what I got from Eric and and I think I have the same 190 00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:38,960 feeling is like the the problem is known for a long time, right? 191 00:10:39,400 --> 00:10:42,480 But just camping outside and protesting like that doesn't 192 00:10:42,480 --> 00:10:45,120 really work like now. And I think you view it as the 193 00:10:45,120 --> 00:10:46,880 same, like you have to start moving. 194 00:10:46,880 --> 00:10:51,120 You have to stop, stop using this old Fiat system and you 195 00:10:51,280 --> 00:10:54,320 have to start adopting the Bitcoin system, right? 196 00:10:54,320 --> 00:10:57,040 Like literally put your money where your mouth is. 197 00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:01,320 How, how was your experience with with Occupy Wall Street or 198 00:11:01,320 --> 00:11:03,040 how how do you look back on that time? 199 00:11:03,080 --> 00:11:06,760 I mean, I, I think if I look back at my, my coming into my, 200 00:11:06,960 --> 00:11:11,400 you know, political self or what it, you know, was a lot about 201 00:11:12,520 --> 00:11:15,160 recognizing a problem and seeing a lot of people recognize the 202 00:11:15,160 --> 00:11:18,320 problem and having complete, you know, diagnosing in the wrong 203 00:11:18,320 --> 00:11:19,400 way of how we're going to fix it. 204 00:11:19,840 --> 00:11:21,560 And so I'd agree with Eric there. 205 00:11:22,400 --> 00:11:25,640 And I generally think that's, if you look back at the, you know, 206 00:11:25,640 --> 00:11:28,320 a lot of the movements that have happened, that's kind of the 207 00:11:28,320 --> 00:11:31,480 thing that's gone wrong is that there's a real problem being 208 00:11:31,480 --> 00:11:34,440 pointed to, but the path to fixing it isn't there. 209 00:11:34,560 --> 00:11:39,080 It, it's wrong or it, or it's it, it's, it's, it misfires, 210 00:11:39,080 --> 00:11:40,560 it's guides in the wrong direction. 211 00:11:41,840 --> 00:11:45,120 And there are some, there were some early, you know, some of my 212 00:11:45,120 --> 00:11:50,280 friends during the Occupy Wall Street timeline, they created a, 213 00:11:51,360 --> 00:11:53,840 a site called Move Your Money. And essentially it was saying, 214 00:11:53,840 --> 00:11:58,280 hey, opt out of banks, move your money out of banks and put them 215 00:11:58,280 --> 00:12:02,320 in a credit union. And so it was, it was there 216 00:12:02,320 --> 00:12:04,160 where it was like, OK, we get it. 217 00:12:04,720 --> 00:12:08,040 We, we understand that where we choose to hold our value is a 218 00:12:08,080 --> 00:12:10,240 political action in and of itself. 219 00:12:10,520 --> 00:12:12,680 So that's, that's a very important step. 220 00:12:13,720 --> 00:12:17,840 The second step is OK to, to truly affect political change, 221 00:12:17,840 --> 00:12:21,560 you need to actually exit that and you need to put your go 222 00:12:21,560 --> 00:12:24,120 elsewhere. The problem was Bitcoin was 223 00:12:24,120 --> 00:12:28,680 nowhere on their radar as the, as the of the place to actually 224 00:12:28,680 --> 00:12:31,200 fix it. And so this whole website was 225 00:12:31,200 --> 00:12:34,920 all about people showing they moved, you know, 10,000 of their 226 00:12:34,920 --> 00:12:40,240 own savings from Wells Fargo to, you know, firefighters Credit 227 00:12:40,240 --> 00:12:42,760 Union in San Francisco or so you know, whatever it was. 228 00:12:43,200 --> 00:12:46,000 And so it was like almost there and it was spiritually in the 229 00:12:46,000 --> 00:12:48,840 right direction, but the tool doesn't didn't exist. 230 00:12:48,840 --> 00:12:51,280 And I think that's where Bitcoin is such an incredible thing. 231 00:12:51,280 --> 00:12:55,280 It is more than anything, it's just it is a extremely powerful 232 00:12:55,280 --> 00:12:58,360 tool that can be leveraged to many different political ends. 233 00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:05,640 And so I would, I would say the best thing about and why, why 234 00:13:05,640 --> 00:13:08,120 Bitcoin is here and why I think it that its message is so 235 00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:12,480 salient today is because we have gone through two to three 236 00:13:12,480 --> 00:13:17,080 decades of identifying the right problem, trying a bunch of 237 00:13:17,080 --> 00:13:20,400 different ways to to fix that problem. 238 00:13:20,800 --> 00:13:26,320 And all of them leading to either detrimental effects, null 239 00:13:26,320 --> 00:13:30,720 neutral effects or no actual changes being done after that. 240 00:13:30,720 --> 00:13:35,600 And so we kind of, we kind of pursued all the paths and now 241 00:13:35,600 --> 00:13:40,080 we're still left with Bitcoin. And I think people are having, 242 00:13:40,160 --> 00:13:42,800 you know, especially over the last five years, increasingly 243 00:13:42,800 --> 00:13:46,000 seen especially over the COVID years and the money printing, 244 00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:50,400 what a powerful counterpoint it plays to the existing system and 245 00:13:50,400 --> 00:13:54,240 what a what a powerful tool it gives you to opting out of that 246 00:13:54,240 --> 00:13:57,400 system. Yeah, well, maybe it's also that 247 00:13:57,400 --> 00:14:00,360 the, the, the, the timing is better, right? 248 00:14:00,360 --> 00:14:02,600 Like, I mean, you, you have a starter background too. 249 00:14:02,600 --> 00:14:05,320 Sometimes you can have a good idea and a good solution, but 250 00:14:05,320 --> 00:14:08,680 the people aren't ready yet and you're too, too early, you know, 251 00:14:08,680 --> 00:14:15,640 and a company still dies, although sometimes even 10 years 252 00:14:15,640 --> 00:14:19,360 later, a similar idea pops up and that works right, because 253 00:14:19,360 --> 00:14:23,360 the people are are are ready. I feel with Bitcoin. 254 00:14:23,560 --> 00:14:25,800 I, I, I like how you illustrated it there. 255 00:14:25,800 --> 00:14:29,400 Like, I do think people understand the the problem, but 256 00:14:29,400 --> 00:14:33,400 the fact that it has been tried to, to do something about it so 257 00:14:33,400 --> 00:14:35,600 many times with a lot of talking, right? 258 00:14:35,600 --> 00:14:38,280 I mean, if you see what's his name, Rand Paul. 259 00:14:38,280 --> 00:14:41,840 And you know, like the libertarians, libertarian 260 00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:45,960 politicians, early 90s, they're already talking about the, the 261 00:14:45,960 --> 00:14:48,600 deficit in America. You know, we need to change it. 262 00:14:48,600 --> 00:14:54,320 But but until that time, there wasn't really a tool that was 263 00:14:54,840 --> 00:14:58,200 totally disconnected with that existing system, right? 264 00:14:58,200 --> 00:15:01,560 And so there wasn't really anything to to actually get in 265 00:15:01,960 --> 00:15:03,720 into, you know, there was no lifeboat. 266 00:15:03,720 --> 00:15:08,720 So, yeah, it's interesting to see now I feel also that why 267 00:15:08,720 --> 00:15:13,160 people currently don't see Bitcoin or don't want to see 268 00:15:13,160 --> 00:15:19,280 Bitcoin because it's been so you know, how to say like combined 269 00:15:19,280 --> 00:15:22,560 with crypto and all the flaws in crypto and all the scams and all 270 00:15:22,560 --> 00:15:25,760 that stuff that, you know, crypto and Bitcoin Bros and we 271 00:15:25,760 --> 00:15:27,200 are all the same for a lot of people. 272 00:15:27,600 --> 00:15:30,000 But I think it's interesting because the the problem is 273 00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:34,760 bigger, way, way bigger than, you know, 1010 years ago and way 274 00:15:34,760 --> 00:15:37,360 more prominent, right? Especially and, and that's also 275 00:15:37,360 --> 00:15:39,320 why I want to focus on millennials like starting a 276 00:15:39,320 --> 00:15:43,680 family, buying a house, like all these things that our parents 277 00:15:43,680 --> 00:15:47,640 and grandparents just did, because, you know, have become 278 00:15:48,800 --> 00:15:51,880 way more unattainable for for a lot of people, you know, So I 279 00:15:51,880 --> 00:15:55,360 think the the problem is way more prominent, but perhaps also 280 00:15:55,880 --> 00:16:00,440 Bitcoin as a solution is once you dive into it, you understand 281 00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:02,880 it's more solidified than, you know, 10 years of. 282 00:16:03,280 --> 00:16:05,920 Course, I think you, I think you said it right both on the timing 283 00:16:05,920 --> 00:16:09,560 piece that every problem, you know, every solution needs to be 284 00:16:09,560 --> 00:16:11,320 coupled with the right timing, right? 285 00:16:11,320 --> 00:16:13,960 The problem can always exist, but without the right timing 286 00:16:13,960 --> 00:16:16,720 instead of circumstances that the solution's not going to 287 00:16:17,080 --> 00:16:21,800 achieve its full, you know, potential. 288 00:16:22,160 --> 00:16:25,520 And I do think the demographic shift that you're talking about 289 00:16:25,520 --> 00:16:30,080 is very important here and plays a big role where, you know, if 290 00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:35,960 you look at Occupy Wall Street, it was primarily, you know, 291 00:16:35,960 --> 00:16:38,800 heavily supported by millennials. 292 00:16:38,800 --> 00:16:41,520 But millennials at the time were not, you know, they weren't 293 00:16:41,520 --> 00:16:44,880 coming into their own of building a family, needing to 294 00:16:44,880 --> 00:16:48,160 build long term security for something beyond the next two 295 00:16:48,160 --> 00:16:54,120 years of their lives in a time when nihilism in their life 296 00:16:54,120 --> 00:16:55,720 about hey, there's no jobs for me. 297 00:16:55,720 --> 00:16:57,960 The economy is bad. You know it's going to get worse 298 00:16:58,160 --> 00:17:01,040 was rampant. Now you actually see people in a 299 00:17:01,040 --> 00:17:03,120 different phase of looking more optimistically. 300 00:17:03,120 --> 00:17:05,640 I have a family. I want to build something that 301 00:17:05,640 --> 00:17:07,839 lasts in the future for a long time. 302 00:17:07,839 --> 00:17:11,560 And there's really not great examples of how to do that in 303 00:17:11,560 --> 00:17:16,760 this new world that we live in. And Bitcoin is definitely a tool 304 00:17:17,319 --> 00:17:21,960 that we believe is central to that and so relevant to the 305 00:17:21,960 --> 00:17:24,160 lives of where millennials are today. 306 00:17:24,160 --> 00:17:28,119 You know, you look at the first product that Fold launched was 307 00:17:28,200 --> 00:17:34,720 our rewards product. One of the most powerful drivers 308 00:17:34,720 --> 00:17:38,640 of the success of that product is not just to earn Bitcoin 309 00:17:38,640 --> 00:17:42,560 rewards, It's it's coupled with the path the the addition that 310 00:17:42,560 --> 00:17:46,840 our purchasing power in terms of the wages that we're earning 311 00:17:46,840 --> 00:17:49,800 versus how much inexpensive things are getting has been 312 00:17:50,240 --> 00:17:53,440 moving in the wrong direction. And when you combine a reward on 313 00:17:53,440 --> 00:17:56,360 top of that that's earned in Bitcoin, you actually can blunt 314 00:17:56,720 --> 00:18:00,440 a lot of the major effects of inflation or the driving down of 315 00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:02,720 your purchasing power because not only you're earning a 316 00:18:02,720 --> 00:18:06,400 percent back, but it's in Bitcoin finite supply. 317 00:18:06,640 --> 00:18:11,920 It is an A inflation resistant asset that is actually 318 00:18:11,920 --> 00:18:14,200 counteracting some of that. So actually Bitcoiners who have 319 00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:17,840 been using fold for a long time, you know, we have thousands and 320 00:18:17,840 --> 00:18:21,520 thousands and thousands of people who have earned more in 321 00:18:21,520 --> 00:18:25,320 their Bitcoin rewards than their peers do in their savings 322 00:18:25,320 --> 00:18:28,720 accounts that they've been saving their entire lives in 323 00:18:28,720 --> 00:18:30,440 their rewards. It seems silly, right? 324 00:18:30,440 --> 00:18:34,000 Seems silly that somehow the rewards could do that but that 325 00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:35,280 is true all the way down the stack. 326 00:18:35,280 --> 00:18:39,480 You're thinking about mortgages you're thinking about saving for 327 00:18:39,480 --> 00:18:42,960 your family about saving investments things like this. 328 00:18:43,040 --> 00:18:45,280 It goes all that's true all the way down the stack. 329 00:18:45,280 --> 00:18:49,720 Once you for millennials to be able to integrate Bitcoin into 330 00:18:49,720 --> 00:18:52,480 their lives, perhaps one of the most important financial 331 00:18:52,480 --> 00:18:54,920 decisions that they make yesterday. 332 00:18:55,560 --> 00:18:58,040 Not you know as as it has to be as early as possible. 333 00:18:58,040 --> 00:19:01,760 And really that's kind of been the driving light of where we've 334 00:19:01,760 --> 00:19:07,400 been taking fold is creating a banking experience for this 335 00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:10,680 cohort for these people that are coming into their own planning 336 00:19:10,680 --> 00:19:14,840 for a future and allowing them to the to bank on the on money 337 00:19:14,840 --> 00:19:19,720 that works for them money that they actually that they prefer, 338 00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:22,840 but also giving them access to all the financial tools they 339 00:19:22,840 --> 00:19:27,160 need debit cards, checking accounts, mortgages, insurance 340 00:19:27,160 --> 00:19:29,880 loans, because we still live in this world, right. 341 00:19:29,880 --> 00:19:31,040 We still need to be able to interact. 342 00:19:31,040 --> 00:19:34,400 We can't all go, you know, full cypher punk off the grid. 343 00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:37,200 When we have our, you know, kids and we're figuring out what kind 344 00:19:37,200 --> 00:19:40,720 of elementary school or home school path we're going to send 345 00:19:40,720 --> 00:19:42,480 them on, you know, we have to have a little bit more 346 00:19:42,480 --> 00:19:45,520 structure. And that that is, you know, kind 347 00:19:45,520 --> 00:19:47,520 of been the central guiding force about Fold. 348 00:19:47,520 --> 00:19:52,320 It's about creating this platform for people to maximize 349 00:19:52,320 --> 00:19:54,080 their financial life. And the only way to do that 350 00:19:54,080 --> 00:19:56,800 today is by integrating Bitcoin in some way. 351 00:19:56,800 --> 00:20:00,240 Whether you're 1% or 100%, you got to have some skin in the 352 00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:05,480 game. Yeah, Yeah, I agree once, once I 353 00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:14,040 realized what Bitcoin gives you in, in terms of actually owning 354 00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:17,840 the asset, right. Like like when you look in, in 355 00:20:17,840 --> 00:20:21,000 your wallet and you see a transaction, you know that, that 356 00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:24,120 when you are on the receiving end that you really own it, you 357 00:20:24,120 --> 00:20:29,240 know, and that, that's what I also think that's difficult when 358 00:20:29,240 --> 00:20:32,440 you talk about Bitcoin, right? That is so that's so conceptual. 359 00:20:32,440 --> 00:20:34,120 We don't even have to talk about Bitcoin, right? 360 00:20:34,120 --> 00:20:37,320 But if you say like, OK, what if, you know, there's a money 361 00:20:37,760 --> 00:20:42,120 that if you see the account, the, the, the amount in, in an 362 00:20:42,120 --> 00:20:46,040 app that it's not just like a view, right? 363 00:20:46,040 --> 00:20:50,680 Like in your current banking app, the view of your, your, the 364 00:20:50,680 --> 00:20:53,760 amount in your bank account is literally just a number in a 365 00:20:53,760 --> 00:20:55,640 database. It represents nothing. 366 00:20:57,080 --> 00:21:00,240 It's nothing. But if you see the number in a 367 00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:02,000 Bitcoin app, it's the real thing. 368 00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:05,120 You know, I love how Jack Mahler says like the information is the 369 00:21:05,120 --> 00:21:07,720 asset, right? The the fact that you have the 370 00:21:07,720 --> 00:21:13,920 key to a certain part of Bitcoin also makes you have the asset 371 00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:17,160 itself like that. That I think is part of the, I 372 00:21:17,160 --> 00:21:19,080 like the word like the paradigm shift, right? 373 00:21:19,080 --> 00:21:21,240 Like it's something that has not existed. 374 00:21:21,680 --> 00:21:24,160 And especially because it's digital, it's just really hard 375 00:21:24,160 --> 00:21:27,080 to understand, even for millennials that grew up, you 376 00:21:27,080 --> 00:21:30,760 know, partially in, in the, the, the non digital world and then 377 00:21:30,760 --> 00:21:32,240 of course, also in digital world. 378 00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:37,200 And I, I think that that is one of the big things people need to 379 00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:42,280 understand that, you know, you can truly own the value that you 380 00:21:42,280 --> 00:21:46,080 got as a reward for your work. I mean, you, you look at even 381 00:21:46,080 --> 00:21:49,040 millennials. So I, I, I remember, of course, 382 00:21:49,040 --> 00:21:52,400 not myself, but those around me. And, you know, college dorms and 383 00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:55,680 high school would be peer-to-peer sharing files back 384 00:21:55,680 --> 00:21:59,160 and forth. And, you know, we were native 385 00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:01,280 growing up native. That was the primary way we were 386 00:22:01,280 --> 00:22:03,000 getting access to our contents and media. 387 00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:09,040 And in some ways it gave us it, it showed us something true 388 00:22:09,120 --> 00:22:11,120 about the rest of the world where there is really no 389 00:22:11,120 --> 00:22:14,120 ownership, right? You can, things can just be 390 00:22:14,120 --> 00:22:19,440 shared and copied and inflated and that's kind of true of the, 391 00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:21,400 you know, physical, non digital world. 392 00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:24,120 It's just we haven't had that much access to really see it. 393 00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:29,520 And that's why I think it took bitcoiners like or people for 394 00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:33,160 Bitcoin to even have an even higher hurdle to jump is how 395 00:22:33,160 --> 00:22:35,240 many times have you heard, Hey, can't they just copy and paste 396 00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:36,960 the code base and create another Bitcoin? 397 00:22:36,960 --> 00:22:39,840 Or how do you know someone can't just add more Bitcoin? 398 00:22:39,840 --> 00:22:42,480 You know, all these things to it because we have real world 399 00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:44,600 examples of, you know, file sharing and things where 400 00:22:44,600 --> 00:22:48,160 scarcity for a digital asset wasn't real at all and they were 401 00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:53,280 exploiting that massively. And you know, to your point of 402 00:22:54,160 --> 00:22:58,240 that, that realization, the the weird thing that Bitcoiners go 403 00:22:58,240 --> 00:23:04,320 through is when your life starts to get more complicated, you 404 00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:06,760 have more responsibilities, you're starting to plan for 405 00:23:06,760 --> 00:23:12,040 longer periods of time. Traditionally, that has a, an 406 00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:15,600 effect that makes people more conservative on the risk that 407 00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:17,680 they're willing to take when they have a family, when they 408 00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:20,680 are trying to plan for a long, long period of time. 409 00:23:21,160 --> 00:23:24,360 And people have asked me before, well, isn't that, doesn't that, 410 00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:26,720 you know, now that you have a kid and you're, you know, all 411 00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:28,760 these things are going on your life now, don't you wanna pull 412 00:23:28,760 --> 00:23:31,720 back from Bitcoin 'cause it's so risky, it's so volatile. 413 00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:36,560 And in fact, my life has only led me in the opposite path. 414 00:23:36,840 --> 00:23:41,200 The more that my life had put these responsibilities on me, 415 00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:43,320 the more I wanted to plan for the future. 416 00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:47,160 I found myself adopting Bitcoin more and more and more. 417 00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:50,040 That's a very counter intuitive thing for most people to know. 418 00:23:50,040 --> 00:23:53,400 But I think it comes back to exactly like what you said is if 419 00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:58,000 you can realize the core of it that never ever has it been 420 00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:03,320 possible to truly bear to hold your, the value that you create 421 00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:05,920 ever. And now you do have a tool for 422 00:24:05,920 --> 00:24:08,960 that. It becomes the most conservative 423 00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:14,560 decision that you could make. And that that learning curve is 424 00:24:14,600 --> 00:24:18,880 not widely understood because number one, people are not used 425 00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:20,520 to having such a tool in their life. 426 00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:24,360 And a lot of the their understandings about Bitcoin is 427 00:24:24,360 --> 00:24:29,080 just about its volatility or its riskiness or all these other 428 00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:32,960 things that are essentially there to to scare you away from 429 00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:36,680 the essential insight that Bitcoin is the only thing that 430 00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:41,560 you can truly own. Yes, could not agree more right. 431 00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:47,280 And I think especially when you have these life changing events, 432 00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:53,400 right, when you have a family, you, you need to secure or or 433 00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:56,680 lower your uncertainty around the future, right? 434 00:24:56,680 --> 00:25:00,080 Like that is that is the consequence of when you have a 435 00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:04,480 family to make to at least have an outlook on the future where 436 00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:07,960 you can build towards with your family, right? 437 00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:12,680 And I fully agree. For me, it's the same, it's the 438 00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:14,640 same thing. You know, adopting Bitcoin is 439 00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:18,400 the most rational, risk averse decision I could ever make. 440 00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:26,680 It's, it's, it's, it's the most predictable, most stable assets 441 00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:31,040 than that you can own. Because anything about it, any 442 00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:34,320 underlying, you know, the underlying protocol, the rules, 443 00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:36,520 all these things you can verify for yourself. 444 00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:41,960 There's nothing that you have to rely on on, on another person 445 00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:46,120 with, with other assets. It's, it's, it's only relying on 446 00:25:46,120 --> 00:25:48,760 other people. It's only relying on stories of 447 00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:51,080 other people or promises of other people. 448 00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:54,600 You know, And that is actually what is uncertain and brings 449 00:25:54,600 --> 00:25:57,600 risk, right? Because although, you know, 450 00:25:57,640 --> 00:26:01,880 understanding Bitcoin is simple, not easy, like it, it, it, it 451 00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:06,680 takes work there. I think there's a clear end to 452 00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:09,960 understanding it. You know, if you do the work at 453 00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:11,760 one point, you will understand it. 454 00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:15,440 And I think, you know, with all these other assets, it's, it's, 455 00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:18,840 it's, it's just, it's, they are totally different games. 456 00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:23,320 And I think the abstractions and the obscurities that come with 457 00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:26,920 those assets are, are there for a reason, right? 458 00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:33,360 So, you know, not everyone can get value from adopting those 459 00:26:33,360 --> 00:26:35,400 assets. And yeah, I, I have exactly the 460 00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:37,480 same thing. For me, it's the most rational 461 00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:40,320 decision to make. And I think it's also why, you 462 00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:43,480 know, the people that don't see Bitcoin yet are actually way 463 00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:46,640 more pessimistic and, and nihilistic, right? 464 00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:49,480 And they don't get kids and they don't get married and they don't 465 00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:52,000 start families. But we we cannot really blame 466 00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:55,320 them because they are, you know, the, the, the foundation of 467 00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:58,920 their life, the, the, the money, the tool that they use for money 468 00:27:00,120 --> 00:27:02,760 or as money. It's just very unpredictable. 469 00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:05,360 So their future is very unpredictable, right. 470 00:27:05,360 --> 00:27:08,400 And yeah, of course then why, why would you have a kid if you 471 00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:12,040 feel like your future? You know, although everyone's 472 00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:16,640 future is uncertain, their future is probably way more 473 00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:20,080 uncertain. And I think us by adopting 474 00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:24,080 Bitcoin, we, we still have an uncertain future, but it's way, 475 00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:26,600 way lower. You know, I would say it's 476 00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:31,600 almost back to the normal level of no one knows how much time 477 00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:33,080 they have in their life basically. 478 00:27:33,120 --> 00:27:36,960 And that's it, right? But we know that we adopted an 479 00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:40,160 asset to store our monetary energy in that nobody can mess 480 00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:42,320 with. And that I think it's the main 481 00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:45,080 thing that that lowers that, that uncertainty. 482 00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:47,280 So I think it's interesting you see it in the same way. 483 00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:51,520 I I tweeted about this before like I am a risky first person 484 00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:53,200 and Bitcoin is the most logical decision. 485 00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:56,200 I don't I don't know how to explain differently. 486 00:27:57,400 --> 00:28:00,640 Yeah. I think the good framing that 487 00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:04,480 you said is that, you know, ultimately life is, is about 488 00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:11,800 managing risks in many ways. And we have enough being people 489 00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:16,480 that rely on a heart to continue to beat is, is one of the most, 490 00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:19,320 you know, the, the, the one that just looms large. 491 00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:24,600 And if you're able to put aside some of these other 492 00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:27,760 uncertainties in life, the ones that are actually maybe 493 00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:32,880 artificially created in many ways, like our money, you 494 00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:38,480 actually get to just focus on the, the, the, the aspects of 495 00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:40,640 life that you know, you, you're not going to escape. 496 00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:44,200 We don't get to control how long we are here, our time or the 497 00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:47,040 things that could shorten that or lengthen it. 498 00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:50,360 But just being able to focus on that. 499 00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:54,240 What does that ultimately do it? It makes us think and desire to 500 00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:57,880 spend the time that we want in beautiful places with the people 501 00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:01,240 that we love. And that's a really sober, clear 502 00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:03,840 eyed way of approaching life. And you really can't even get 503 00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:08,400 there if all your other life is just in chaos and you know, you 504 00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:11,000 feel like you're constantly subject to rug poles or built 505 00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:15,800 your your foundation on sand. Just removing some of these 506 00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:18,720 other uncertainties can, can truly transform your life. 507 00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:22,920 And it's not about getting rich. It's about it's about being able 508 00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:25,560 to see your life clearly and what's important to you. 509 00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:30,600 Yeah, couldn't agree more. So how do you experience talking 510 00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:34,120 to other Bitcoiners or other other millennials? 511 00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:36,360 I want to say you, you just mentioned lots of your friends 512 00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:40,240 are Bitcoiners, so I think that's nice, but how do you 513 00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:43,600 experience? You know, my, my, my life has 514 00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:46,920 really gone. You know, I obviously there 515 00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:49,800 weren't that many bitcoiners for for a long time and you can find 516 00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:53,160 them at meetups or online. And but the idea of like a 517 00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:57,760 community that could make up the majority of friend group wasn't 518 00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:01,720 really there. But I have a really rich group 519 00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:05,280 of friends that I have and some most of them I would consider, 520 00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:08,160 you know, are probably only interested in Bitcoin just 521 00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:13,160 because I am. But for the most part, even the 522 00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:16,400 example of my life and what I've, you know, talked their 523 00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:19,040 ears off and everything they they still haven't gotten there 524 00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:24,880 a lot of them themselves. But I that's kind of part of the 525 00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:28,240 reason where fold even comes from is that hey, I I'm not very 526 00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:33,160 successful at at orange peeling people directly full on 527 00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:34,600 onslaught. Maybe that's not the right way 528 00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:36,120 to do it. People need to come to it when 529 00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:41,680 they're ready and so I get love to maintain those friendships. 530 00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:45,640 I may have made so many friends in in the world of Bitcoin, but 531 00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:50,680 you know, even if you get too many bitcoiners together, you're 532 00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:53,040 going to be, you know, your head's going to be spinning and 533 00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:55,120 be like, wait, didn't we just talk about that again because 534 00:30:55,120 --> 00:30:57,600 we, we, we circle. We are all kind of refining 535 00:30:57,600 --> 00:31:01,120 these concepts over and over, sharing them, sharing them back 536 00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:03,960 and sometimes you just need to take a break from it even even 537 00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:06,440 leaving this world and is important. 538 00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:10,240 So I'm, I'm, I advocate to have friends outside of Bitcoin as 539 00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:13,840 well, absolutely just for the, the health of your life. 540 00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:18,360 But it's good having the balance to see, to see both sides. 541 00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:24,120 And I think it goes back to the same same thing we started this 542 00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:26,760 conversation off with. I think every single one of my 543 00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:29,640 good friends understand the problem. 544 00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:33,440 They deeply see that there's the problems that are there. 545 00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:38,040 They may have different language about speaking about it, and I 546 00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:40,840 think a lot of them have what they think is the solution for 547 00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:43,240 it. The problem is a lot of the 548 00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:46,200 solutions that they would point to are completely out of their 549 00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:50,200 control. It is reliant on some major 550 00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:54,520 political transformation of, you know, hundreds of thousands to 551 00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:57,360 millions of people. It is reliant on some sort of 552 00:31:57,360 --> 00:31:58,920 collapse. And then from there we get to 553 00:31:58,920 --> 00:32:01,920 rebuild. It's it's some sort of idea 554 00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:04,600 that, hey, I'm just going to opt out and just live a life as 555 00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:07,040 minimal as possible. And that's how I'll control my 556 00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:12,200 risk and uncertainty. But all of them are choosing 557 00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:14,960 things that, you know, are, are hard for you to control like you 558 00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:17,240 don't you? That's not a lever you can pull. 559 00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:21,120 And the so I think a lot of the things that I have chosen to 560 00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:23,520 focus on when I talk to people who are outside of Bitcoin and 561 00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:27,040 say, hey, you see the problem, you see challenges in your life. 562 00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:31,000 What are the things that you can do today, not reliant on anybody 563 00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:33,520 else that could meaningfully make an impact? 564 00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:35,600 And that's where you do get some interesting stuff. 565 00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:38,640 And, you know, 90% of the time, they're not talking about 566 00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:42,200 Bitcoin at all, but they're talking about, you know, eating 567 00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:45,160 better or being healthier or developing healthier 568 00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:46,560 relationships with those around them. 569 00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:51,280 That's all extremely positive, directionally correct things to 570 00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:56,000 do and much healthier than saying, hey, I'm going to live a 571 00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:59,640 life in this world that I don't agree with and that I'm, you 572 00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:02,640 know, a victim of. But I'm only going to change it 573 00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:05,080 if everyone else suddenly decides to change at the same 574 00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:06,480 time. That's a very unhealthy way of 575 00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:10,000 living. And so I for me, it is really 576 00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:13,280 always comes down to, hey, you know, we can bond over and agree 577 00:33:13,280 --> 00:33:16,280 on these problems, but what are the things that you could change 578 00:33:16,280 --> 00:33:17,720 in your own life? And actually there's a lot of 579 00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:20,600 great things outside of Bitcoin that are within your control. 580 00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:24,480 And I think of Bitcoiners happened to also talk about 581 00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:27,080 those things too. Yeah, yeah. 582 00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:29,880 I think it's interesting. Once you see the problem and you 583 00:33:29,880 --> 00:33:34,280 know that you're living in a system, you know where that 584 00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:37,800 creates that problem, you just have, you know, it's a fork in 585 00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:40,600 the road, I'd say, right. And if you don't, if you choose 586 00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:43,600 to stay there, right, Like I always use the, the the matrix 587 00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:45,800 example, like the I like to eat a steak. 588 00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:50,240 You know that that this guy wants to stay in the matrix, 589 00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:51,480 right? Because he loves the steak so 590 00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:55,320 much. Like it's, it's fine, but it 591 00:33:55,320 --> 00:33:59,120 will probably give you some sort of perpetual anxiety, right? 592 00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:02,080 Because you realize that you have this problem and you cannot 593 00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:04,920 change it and you consciously choose to live with it. 594 00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:08,719 You know, like, so eventually I do. 595 00:34:08,719 --> 00:34:11,600 I do believe that people will turn around in a sense because 596 00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:15,480 you can only live with the problem of, you know, unlimited 597 00:34:15,679 --> 00:34:20,040 money creation and devaluation for a certain amount of time 598 00:34:20,040 --> 00:34:22,600 before before you don't accept it anymore. 599 00:34:22,600 --> 00:34:23,639 Right. Yeah. 600 00:34:24,560 --> 00:34:28,679 So you just mentioned it before, but I wanted to ask you like 601 00:34:28,679 --> 00:34:32,600 when did you really decide to contribute to Bitcoin and and 602 00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:36,719 start a Bitcoin company and and why did you commit to that? 603 00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:45,520 So I had always been someone who I, I early, early in life. 604 00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:51,400 I, I've got the bug that I want to be building startups and new 605 00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:54,080 ideas. I want to have small teams think 606 00:34:54,080 --> 00:34:59,160 about big ideas, pursue them, fail along the way, be OK with 607 00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:03,520 that and ultimately find success along that that journey That was 608 00:35:03,520 --> 00:35:08,040 just immensely valuable for me. I just love that mode of living. 609 00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:11,880 Number one, you know, extreme risk, extreme high, you know, 610 00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:15,880 uncertainty, but at the same time, total control over what 611 00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:20,480 you're doing day-to-day. Like total control over constant 612 00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:23,440 challenges being thrown at you and you get to decide how you're 613 00:35:23,440 --> 00:35:25,200 going to make it. How are you going to route 614 00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:26,640 around it? How are you going to. 615 00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:29,360 And I love that. I just, I love that I loved 616 00:35:29,720 --> 00:35:31,920 being around people who liked doing that. 617 00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:37,120 And I, I, I thought it was, it was something I knew what 618 00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:39,160 happened. But when I got my first couple 619 00:35:39,160 --> 00:35:41,400 experiences are like, I can't believe this is a real way to 620 00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:43,200 live your life. This is so exciting. 621 00:35:43,720 --> 00:35:46,360 The problem was I, I didn't really care about a lot of the 622 00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:49,920 things that I actually was working on a lot of the problems 623 00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:53,680 that I was there. And you know, my, my start up 624 00:35:53,680 --> 00:35:57,560 background is everything from, you know, social apps to 625 00:35:57,560 --> 00:36:06,120 e-commerce to peer-to-peer lending to I've done car, car, 626 00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:10,360 used car marketplaces, I've done insurance, I've done so many 627 00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:11,960 things. I just don't really care about 628 00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:13,320 the end thing like what I'm trying. 629 00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:17,000 I love the process. I absolutely love the process. 630 00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:24,320 It was only when I was in between, in between some of my 631 00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:28,480 projects and I was, I was working at a unnamed large tech 632 00:36:28,480 --> 00:36:33,520 company and I was in product there that I met my counterpart 633 00:36:33,520 --> 00:36:35,760 who ran technology in the group I was at. 634 00:36:36,160 --> 00:36:39,120 And he was deeply into Bitcoin and his side project that he was 635 00:36:39,120 --> 00:36:46,640 building was a Bitcoin start up. And I had by that time kind of 636 00:36:46,640 --> 00:36:48,680 be on to fall down the rabbit hole in a big way. 637 00:36:48,720 --> 00:36:51,440 I was probably at where a lot of people get when they're maybe 638 00:36:51,440 --> 00:36:54,520 one year in and just every podcast, everything they've 639 00:36:54,520 --> 00:36:57,640 read, they're, they're, they know they can quote everybody. 640 00:36:59,360 --> 00:37:03,360 And I just saw someone who was showing me the way, a successful 641 00:37:03,360 --> 00:37:06,040 way of living their life, both as an entrepreneur, building 642 00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:09,120 something in the teams, the way I like to live, but on a problem 643 00:37:09,120 --> 00:37:12,280 that I deeply cared about. And that changed everything. 644 00:37:12,280 --> 00:37:16,080 I was like, I can bring these two things together and I can 645 00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:19,560 provide for my family and I can still maintain all of this 646 00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:23,920 lifestyle that I love so much. And it was there that, you know, 647 00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:26,880 fold came about and that's, that's that's the origination. 648 00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:31,440 And fold went through many different chapters because a lot 649 00:37:31,440 --> 00:37:34,400 about being a start up is, is figuring out what problem you're 650 00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:37,840 solving of. There's maybe a big problem 651 00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:39,720 they're going after, but ultimately you have to be 652 00:37:39,800 --> 00:37:43,120 focused on what smaller problem of that big problem you're 653 00:37:43,120 --> 00:37:45,880 solving. And we went through a couple 654 00:37:45,880 --> 00:37:48,640 cycles and, you know, ultimately, you know, found some 655 00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:51,600 great success. And that's what propelled me 656 00:37:51,600 --> 00:37:54,680 there today. But really, it was holy shit. 657 00:37:54,680 --> 00:37:58,600 I can live a life, a day-to-day life that I want to do in 658 00:37:58,600 --> 00:38:00,520 pursuit of something I truly care about. 659 00:38:00,520 --> 00:38:03,920 That was that was the win. Yeah, yeah, very cool. 660 00:38:03,960 --> 00:38:07,040 I, I also wanted to ask like how, how do you look back on 661 00:38:07,120 --> 00:38:09,920 that decision now? But also what would you say to 662 00:38:09,920 --> 00:38:15,400 any entrepreneurial person, entrepreneurial Bitcoiner who's 663 00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:19,000 thinking about contributing to, to Bitcoin? 664 00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:21,200 What? What advice would you give them? 665 00:38:23,480 --> 00:38:27,440 First answer, I, I, I look back and I think, oh, I've been doing 666 00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:32,160 this for three years, probably it's a lot longer than that. 667 00:38:32,200 --> 00:38:36,440 It's, it's crazy. I don't like it's, it's, it is 668 00:38:36,440 --> 00:38:41,000 warped to my sense of time because this space changes so 669 00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:44,560 fast and it is so brutal in many ways. 670 00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:46,640 There's it's hard to run a start up. 671 00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:49,800 It's it's extremely difficult to run a Bitcoin start up. 672 00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:53,720 Number one, because your, your pool of willing customers right 673 00:38:53,720 --> 00:38:57,080 now are smaller than many markets. 674 00:38:57,240 --> 00:39:00,480 They also change and contract with market cycles. 675 00:39:00,840 --> 00:39:04,880 You're dealing with an asset that is itself undergoing 676 00:39:04,880 --> 00:39:08,560 product market fit as well as your product that is related to 677 00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:10,920 that asset. So you're, you have a couple 678 00:39:10,920 --> 00:39:14,240 things that you're you're accounting for. 679 00:39:14,720 --> 00:39:18,120 It is deeply political. It has been deeply maligned. 680 00:39:18,120 --> 00:39:23,520 It is it is hard to get partners that truly are in it for the 681 00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:26,520 long haul with you. So I can make partnerships with 682 00:39:26,640 --> 00:39:30,680 other companies that I need their act, their services and 683 00:39:32,280 --> 00:39:34,400 Bitcoin is in one day and out the other for them. 684 00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:35,880 They're not like a line for the long haul. 685 00:39:35,880 --> 00:39:38,520 So it's it's just, it's extremely brutal. 686 00:39:40,600 --> 00:39:44,000 But again, there's no more fulfilling path once you find 687 00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:46,160 that little piece of it that makes sense for you. 688 00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:52,320 And so for people getting into it, you know, I would say, you 689 00:39:52,320 --> 00:39:55,400 know, there's a problem in traditional startups where, you 690 00:39:55,400 --> 00:39:58,120 know, there's a joke where everyone's first startup that 691 00:39:58,120 --> 00:40:02,840 they make is a local recommendation app or a, some 692 00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:05,680 type of social app, because that's just like where everyone 693 00:40:05,680 --> 00:40:08,720 thinks to go 1st. And so you just get a bunch of 694 00:40:08,720 --> 00:40:12,200 people rushing to solve maybe something that doesn't actually 695 00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:15,160 have a problem. But you know, it's, it's, it's 696 00:40:15,160 --> 00:40:17,920 just a, there's a graveyard of millions of, you know, these 697 00:40:17,920 --> 00:40:21,120 social startups that are there. And there's in Bitcoin, you 698 00:40:21,120 --> 00:40:23,680 don't have that reliance #1 there's a lot less money 699 00:40:23,680 --> 00:40:26,680 available to you. You're going to have much more 700 00:40:26,680 --> 00:40:28,920 brutal cycles and the markets are going to be generally 701 00:40:28,920 --> 00:40:31,960 smaller. And So what I like to do is, and 702 00:40:31,960 --> 00:40:37,400 my advice has always been is look at what Bitcoin brings to 703 00:40:37,400 --> 00:40:41,600 people that cannot be solved anywhere else and go so much go 704 00:40:41,600 --> 00:40:45,920 deep into that, whether that is unconfiscatable, whether that is 705 00:40:46,240 --> 00:40:50,280 bare asset ownership, whether that is unstoppability, whether 706 00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:53,320 that is just custody, whether that is, you know, there's so 707 00:40:53,320 --> 00:40:56,800 many angles you can go, but choose one and go really deep 708 00:40:56,920 --> 00:40:58,840 into it and become the best at that. 709 00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:03,120 And you know, sometimes with a a space like Bitcoin, sometimes 710 00:41:03,120 --> 00:41:04,560 that's going to end up being a start up. 711 00:41:05,240 --> 00:41:07,800 Sometimes it's going to be a really fulfilling open source 712 00:41:07,800 --> 00:41:10,600 career where you are contributing and getting grants 713 00:41:10,600 --> 00:41:12,920 and there and that's the best way for you to contribute. 714 00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:16,320 There's just so many different ways there's, there's providing 715 00:41:17,840 --> 00:41:22,720 ideas and content and helping others get educated on this is 716 00:41:22,720 --> 00:41:26,960 as important as building something, a tool for them to 717 00:41:26,960 --> 00:41:31,760 use. So I'd say #1 be prepared for an 718 00:41:31,760 --> 00:41:37,520 extremely brutal gauntlet. Be very open to finding where 719 00:41:37,520 --> 00:41:40,520 your piece is, and come in with a broad perspective. 720 00:41:40,520 --> 00:41:42,000 There's a lot of ways to contribute. 721 00:41:42,880 --> 00:41:46,040 Yeah. Yeah, I love that I I sometimes 722 00:41:46,040 --> 00:41:49,400 get these messages for people like, yeah, I, I am a bitcoiner 723 00:41:49,400 --> 00:41:51,360 and I want to contribute like what should I do? 724 00:41:51,360 --> 00:41:56,080 And I always just say like, just do whatever you're good at. 725 00:41:56,080 --> 00:42:00,160 Like there's so much still needed to be done right. 726 00:42:00,160 --> 00:42:05,640 And I think it, it, it, it does. It doesn't even matter like 727 00:42:05,640 --> 00:42:08,640 where you, where you come from. Like I talked to a guy who was a 728 00:42:08,640 --> 00:42:12,200 teacher and I said, well, you know, if you like teaching, you 729 00:42:12,200 --> 00:42:14,840 know, there's a lot of people who still need to teach about 730 00:42:15,200 --> 00:42:17,000 Bitcoin. And there's all these different 731 00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:20,720 angles about Bitcoin. Like I sent him to, you know, 732 00:42:20,720 --> 00:42:25,280 BTC sessions YouTube who has 300,000 subscribers and he only 733 00:42:25,280 --> 00:42:29,680 talks about, you know, how does this software hardware work, 734 00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:32,040 right? And and I send it to this guy 735 00:42:32,040 --> 00:42:36,440 and he was like, wow, OK, you know this. 736 00:42:36,480 --> 00:42:38,040 This you can go, Niche you can go. 737 00:42:38,120 --> 00:42:41,040 Specific, you can go very, very niche yeah, yeah, exactly. 738 00:42:41,040 --> 00:42:44,080 Or, you know, for a specific target audience or, you know, 739 00:42:44,080 --> 00:42:45,520 well, that's what I'm doing a little. 740 00:42:45,520 --> 00:42:50,920 But you know, any way you think there's probably value in that 741 00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:53,720 to be honest, right? Because we still have the 742 00:42:53,720 --> 00:42:59,880 majority, you know, 99.9% of people in the world to, to 743 00:42:59,920 --> 00:43:04,200 educate on this. So, you know, any, any focus is, 744 00:43:04,600 --> 00:43:07,720 is good. I think I, I wanted to ask you 745 00:43:07,720 --> 00:43:14,000 about, about fault where, where you're at right now, but also a 746 00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:17,960 bit before that. You started with this, you know, 747 00:43:17,960 --> 00:43:23,520 reward system and eventually you also now can show the results, 748 00:43:23,520 --> 00:43:27,480 right, of how people who save their rewards actually, you 749 00:43:27,480 --> 00:43:33,360 know, have more economic value or, or, or financial power than 750 00:43:34,520 --> 00:43:40,280 than other options. How does you know this gamified 751 00:43:40,880 --> 00:43:43,760 platform or app that you create? How do you think that 752 00:43:43,760 --> 00:43:48,520 contributes to kind of like broader financial education or 753 00:43:48,520 --> 00:43:53,120 or understanding? I think it's, it's hard to get 754 00:43:53,120 --> 00:43:56,160 people to care like we know about Bitcoin and money. 755 00:43:56,160 --> 00:43:58,560 It's hard to get people to care about money because everyone's 756 00:43:58,560 --> 00:44:01,200 taught not to think about money. There's and there, everyone's 757 00:44:01,200 --> 00:44:04,800 taught to think about everything else that money can do or what 758 00:44:04,800 --> 00:44:07,120 it gives you, but don't ever think about the money. 759 00:44:07,120 --> 00:44:11,480 And right, it's A and your finances are the same way. 760 00:44:11,480 --> 00:44:13,800 Your personal financial tools are the same way. 761 00:44:14,520 --> 00:44:19,760 And we've used education gamification as a way to get you 762 00:44:19,760 --> 00:44:23,400 to focus more to to pay more attention to your money. 763 00:44:23,760 --> 00:44:26,480 Hey, come in every single day. Come look at how Bitcoin is 764 00:44:26,480 --> 00:44:29,000 volatile. Look at how Bitcoin is volatile 765 00:44:29,000 --> 00:44:31,400 to the upside. Look at look at where you were 766 00:44:31,400 --> 00:44:33,480 six months ago. Look at the progress you've made 767 00:44:33,480 --> 00:44:35,240 six months, look at where you would have been. 768 00:44:36,240 --> 00:44:40,760 And so gamification has been a powerful tool to get people to 769 00:44:40,760 --> 00:44:44,600 focus on the money in a way that's every single day. 770 00:44:44,600 --> 00:44:49,640 That was one of our things was, hey, sometimes Bitcoin 771 00:44:49,640 --> 00:44:52,840 conversations can come and they can go, but what could we create 772 00:44:53,280 --> 00:44:56,400 that has people focusing and thinking about Bitcoin every 773 00:44:56,400 --> 00:44:59,200 single day? And so that started off things 774 00:44:59,200 --> 00:45:01,840 with, you know, giving a free Bitcoin to people every single 775 00:45:01,840 --> 00:45:03,400 day. Open the app, do it. 776 00:45:03,400 --> 00:45:06,440 That's another chance for us to educate them, to show them how 777 00:45:06,680 --> 00:45:10,200 where they are today is better than where they were yesterday. 778 00:45:10,200 --> 00:45:12,960 It's better than the other options that they could have 779 00:45:12,960 --> 00:45:14,520 had. And so I think it's been 780 00:45:14,520 --> 00:45:18,800 extremely powerful in that from that perspective. 781 00:45:20,120 --> 00:45:24,520 And what it is also done is is because we're getting this daily 782 00:45:25,120 --> 00:45:27,800 engagement, You know, we started off with rewards, very simple, 783 00:45:27,800 --> 00:45:31,160 hey, instead of, you know, earning points or airline miles, 784 00:45:31,160 --> 00:45:34,480 earn Bitcoin. But the convert, once you're 785 00:45:34,480 --> 00:45:37,680 successful and people feel how powerful just changing their 786 00:45:37,680 --> 00:45:41,320 reward asset could be, they start thinking more, Oh, wait, 787 00:45:41,400 --> 00:45:44,280 maybe I should think about Bitcoin as my my primary 788 00:45:44,280 --> 00:45:46,600 investment. We're not at savings yet. 789 00:45:46,600 --> 00:45:49,240 They're just like, hey, maybe I should, you know, stop investing 790 00:45:49,240 --> 00:45:53,000 so much in the S&P or a given stock that I've been gambling 791 00:45:53,000 --> 00:45:55,320 on. Maybe my investment should be in 792 00:45:55,320 --> 00:45:57,080 Bitcoin. OK, let's we do that. 793 00:45:57,080 --> 00:45:59,600 Then we start showing comparing against the rest of the market 794 00:45:59,600 --> 00:46:02,960 to where they are over periods of time how that could compound 795 00:46:02,960 --> 00:46:06,960 in the future if bitcoins appreciation continues as it 796 00:46:06,960 --> 00:46:10,800 had. Then you get them to savings and 797 00:46:10,800 --> 00:46:14,480 then you start to get this really funny thing where wow, 798 00:46:16,040 --> 00:46:20,080 80% of my net worth is in Bitcoin and I never really made 799 00:46:20,080 --> 00:46:23,280 that decision. It just happened because the 800 00:46:23,280 --> 00:46:26,360 dollars that I hold in various things are just being devalued. 801 00:46:26,360 --> 00:46:31,080 That is just going down. And over the last 5-6 years my 802 00:46:31,080 --> 00:46:34,560 Bitcoin has ballooned into a major piece of My Portfolio. 803 00:46:35,040 --> 00:46:39,320 So we did a, A, a survey just the other day for our users and 804 00:46:39,320 --> 00:46:42,360 said, hey, you've been, you've been earning Bitcoin and buying 805 00:46:42,360 --> 00:46:47,760 Bitcoin for a long time. Do you feel that you will have 806 00:46:47,760 --> 00:46:51,720 an urgent need for financial services specifically built 807 00:46:51,720 --> 00:46:55,080 around Bitcoin in the in the near term? 808 00:46:55,560 --> 00:47:00,240 And it was overwhelmingly 70% said I will need a mortgage that 809 00:47:00,240 --> 00:47:03,880 involves my Bitcoin. I will need credit lines that 810 00:47:03,880 --> 00:47:09,080 involve my Bitcoin. I will need credit scores, I 811 00:47:09,080 --> 00:47:14,080 will need financial advisors to recognize my Bitcoin, but none 812 00:47:14,080 --> 00:47:16,720 of the world does any of that. They all want to give you these 813 00:47:16,720 --> 00:47:22,200 very Fiat credit products or credit scores, but none of it is 814 00:47:22,200 --> 00:47:25,200 focusing on that. There is a huge hundreds of 815 00:47:25,200 --> 00:47:30,560 thousands of people who now find their net worth is a significant 816 00:47:30,560 --> 00:47:34,000 portion related to to their Bitcoin and they will need now 817 00:47:34,000 --> 00:47:36,400 they start asking, wait, the whole thing has to change for 818 00:47:36,400 --> 00:47:38,200 me. And a lot of these products 819 00:47:38,200 --> 00:47:40,920 don't exist. And what Fold has been able to 820 00:47:40,920 --> 00:47:42,760 do has been grow alongside of them. 821 00:47:42,760 --> 00:47:48,280 We started earning rewards, we went into roundups and DCA and 822 00:47:49,240 --> 00:47:51,520 all these ways to accumulate more and more Bitcoin. 823 00:47:51,960 --> 00:47:54,520 And what you're going to see from Fold now is really taking 824 00:47:54,520 --> 00:47:57,760 that next chapter of, hey, we know you want to buy your first, 825 00:47:57,800 --> 00:48:01,080 your next home, not because you think it's a big investment, but 826 00:48:01,080 --> 00:48:02,360 because you're building a family. 827 00:48:02,880 --> 00:48:04,840 Hey, we know you're going to need insurance. 828 00:48:04,840 --> 00:48:06,840 We know you're going to need XYZ. 829 00:48:07,480 --> 00:48:11,200 And there's nobody there who's providing that to you in any 830 00:48:11,200 --> 00:48:13,440 meaningful way. And if they are, it's clunky, 831 00:48:13,440 --> 00:48:16,960 it's weird, it's expensive, it doesn't compete well with the 832 00:48:16,960 --> 00:48:20,880 traditional products. And what Fold is going to do is 833 00:48:20,960 --> 00:48:24,560 provide that entire banking kind of platform for you, but built 834 00:48:24,560 --> 00:48:29,040 for Bitcoiners that you get an experience that truly leverages 835 00:48:29,320 --> 00:48:32,360 the power of what Bitcoin gives that you can't get from any 836 00:48:32,360 --> 00:48:36,000 other tool. And that's what you'll see us I 837 00:48:36,000 --> 00:48:40,760 think on over the next, you know, few months and into 2025, 838 00:48:40,760 --> 00:48:42,560 we'll be focusing on quite a bit. 839 00:48:42,560 --> 00:48:45,000 We have a a very fun road map ahead. 840 00:48:46,320 --> 00:48:48,480 So how? How do you see the relationship 841 00:48:48,480 --> 00:48:52,760 between Bitcoin focused companies like faults and 842 00:48:52,760 --> 00:48:57,680 traditional finance institutions evolved? 843 00:48:57,680 --> 00:49:01,960 And like what I, I, I love what you are building. 844 00:49:01,960 --> 00:49:06,640 I also really like on ramp. You know, this is like you, you 845 00:49:06,640 --> 00:49:12,120 can build a Bank of the future without, you know, the being a 846 00:49:12,120 --> 00:49:14,000 bank before. Like you can, you can build a 847 00:49:14,000 --> 00:49:17,040 bank from scratch in a Bitcoin way. 848 00:49:17,920 --> 00:49:21,720 And I, I, I think it's interesting that current 849 00:49:21,720 --> 00:49:24,360 financial institutions, although you know, some of ETFs, 850 00:49:24,360 --> 00:49:29,160 etcetera, like for them to reinvent themselves and become 851 00:49:29,640 --> 00:49:32,320 that Bank of the future where. Business, they don't even 852 00:49:33,080 --> 00:49:35,000 realize. They don't even realize the 853 00:49:35,000 --> 00:49:37,400 problem yet. They don't exactly we are 854 00:49:37,600 --> 00:49:41,080 because they profit from the problems they experience, right. 855 00:49:41,760 --> 00:49:45,000 So it's it's, it's, it's, it's, it's a part of their business 856 00:49:45,000 --> 00:49:47,360 model. And our problem is that most 857 00:49:47,360 --> 00:49:50,080 people don't know that, you know, that is part of their 858 00:49:50,080 --> 00:49:52,400 business model. So, yeah. 859 00:49:52,400 --> 00:49:55,920 How do you see that evolve? I mean, I think just like 860 00:49:55,920 --> 00:49:59,600 Bitcoin, you know, Bitcoin will operate kind of at the at the 861 00:49:59,600 --> 00:50:02,960 fringes, it's going to be most valuable to the people that are 862 00:50:02,960 --> 00:50:06,680 currently most under the thumb of inflation, of monetary 863 00:50:06,680 --> 00:50:09,840 controls, of unfair financial systems. 864 00:50:11,000 --> 00:50:14,920 The inevitable thing is that problem is increasingly moving 865 00:50:14,920 --> 00:50:17,880 to the center is eating the core of everybody. 866 00:50:18,920 --> 00:50:24,280 And so the financial tools that are there to facilitate your 867 00:50:24,280 --> 00:50:29,040 usage, your experience of Bitcoin is it follows that same 868 00:50:29,040 --> 00:50:31,960 trajectory. And we have never been moving 869 00:50:31,960 --> 00:50:37,360 faster to the core. We have never been more the core 870 00:50:37,360 --> 00:50:39,920 has never been more understanding of the problem in 871 00:50:39,920 --> 00:50:43,880 awaiting a solution. And like you said, all the 872 00:50:43,880 --> 00:50:47,520 incumbents are too entrenched in not only profiting off the way 873 00:50:47,520 --> 00:50:50,720 things are, but even their approach to the problems because 874 00:50:50,720 --> 00:50:53,320 they see it as well. You know, JP Morgan just today 875 00:50:53,320 --> 00:50:56,880 said, hey, we're going to start charging everybody to hold money 876 00:50:56,880 --> 00:50:59,880 in their accounts. We're we're going to hold 877 00:50:59,880 --> 00:51:02,520 instead of paying you an interest rate, which was the 878 00:51:02,520 --> 00:51:06,400 whole point of Fiat anyway, we're going to now be charging 879 00:51:06,400 --> 00:51:07,600 you. And it's going to 'cause this 880 00:51:07,600 --> 00:51:12,040 paradigm shift where not only do people feel the heat from this 881 00:51:12,040 --> 00:51:16,280 general problem, but the tools themselves that have been used 882 00:51:16,280 --> 00:51:19,680 to facilitate that economy will be turning on them customers. 883 00:51:20,120 --> 00:51:22,080 And they're going to turn on the customers. 884 00:51:22,280 --> 00:51:24,760 They're not going to be aligned. And what you're going to be 885 00:51:24,760 --> 00:51:27,760 seeing with Bitcoin focused companies who are building a 886 00:51:27,760 --> 00:51:32,760 world that not only is there to help them use Bitcoin, but 887 00:51:32,800 --> 00:51:37,600 reimagine the in financial and economic infrastructure in the 888 00:51:37,600 --> 00:51:45,720 image of Bitcoin will provide unfair advantages that even the 889 00:51:45,720 --> 00:51:50,400 core, the most normally core in the center will not be able to 890 00:51:50,560 --> 00:51:52,560 live without. And they that is going to happen 891 00:51:52,560 --> 00:51:55,720 very, very quickly. And, you know, we're already 892 00:51:55,720 --> 00:51:59,000 looking at some of the products that will be launching our 893 00:51:59,000 --> 00:52:05,600 mortgage product unlocks things like, hey, you can get a home 894 00:52:05,600 --> 00:52:10,000 that you want for no money down. You can get a home that you want 895 00:52:10,000 --> 00:52:12,800 that earns you Bitcoin. As you contribute to your 896 00:52:12,800 --> 00:52:15,200 mortgage, it actually increases your Bitcoin stack. 897 00:52:15,800 --> 00:52:19,440 Or, hey, do you just want a lower monthly mortgage rate? 898 00:52:19,760 --> 00:52:21,560 And you'll have a lower interest rate. 899 00:52:21,880 --> 00:52:24,600 Once you start introducing Bitcoin into all of these 900 00:52:24,600 --> 00:52:28,640 financial products and services, you get to create unfair 901 00:52:28,640 --> 00:52:33,040 advantages that the existing financial system not only 902 00:52:33,040 --> 00:52:36,520 increasingly has less and less of, but increasingly is eating 903 00:52:36,520 --> 00:52:39,640 itself and again, charging you for having a savings account 904 00:52:39,640 --> 00:52:42,480 with them. And that will inevitably hit a a 905 00:52:43,160 --> 00:52:46,640 breaking point and the incumbents will not be there to 906 00:52:46,640 --> 00:52:52,080 move fast enough to respond. Yeah, yeah, couldn't agree more. 907 00:52:52,080 --> 00:52:55,360 I think this is really in line with my own trad FI experience 908 00:52:55,360 --> 00:52:59,840 at at two big banks. I, I, I do not see them steering 909 00:52:59,840 --> 00:53:04,560 that fast. But also just, yeah, it's just 910 00:53:04,560 --> 00:53:08,280 the base layer values, views on money, all the ownership, all 911 00:53:08,280 --> 00:53:12,480 these things are just totally different than, you know, in 912 00:53:12,480 --> 00:53:14,880 Bitcoin as, as compared to traditional banks. 913 00:53:14,880 --> 00:53:18,960 So, yeah, I'm excited to see what what you're going to build 914 00:53:18,960 --> 00:53:21,320 there. I have a little idea now, but 915 00:53:22,960 --> 00:53:26,960 I'm excited to see it unfold. That was a good pun, by the way. 916 00:53:26,960 --> 00:53:30,600 Unfold. Yeah. 917 00:53:30,600 --> 00:53:36,400 So if if you and probably after you more companies, you know, 918 00:53:36,400 --> 00:53:40,840 will start to build these services, how do you how do you 919 00:53:40,840 --> 00:53:45,640 envision, you know, Bitcoin integration into like everyday 920 00:53:45,640 --> 00:53:48,400 consumer activities? But also, you know, I like the 921 00:53:48,400 --> 00:53:52,240 quote, it goes something like good design will make technology 922 00:53:52,240 --> 00:53:54,040 invisible. You know what, what do you think 923 00:53:54,040 --> 00:53:57,040 is needed for Bitcoin to become invisible? 924 00:53:57,040 --> 00:53:58,880 Do you have any any ideas about that? 925 00:53:59,440 --> 00:54:01,600 Yeah. I mean, I, I think, I think 926 00:54:01,600 --> 00:54:05,240 we're very, very close there already with what we built at 927 00:54:05,240 --> 00:54:07,480 Fold. So when you download Fold, you 928 00:54:07,480 --> 00:54:13,600 can deposit your paycheck, it instantly is converted into into 929 00:54:13,600 --> 00:54:16,280 Bitcoin for zero fees. You're you're not, you're not 930 00:54:16,280 --> 00:54:18,320 losing any Bitcoin in that conversion. 931 00:54:18,720 --> 00:54:22,520 From there, your Bitcoin can immediately be used to pay a 932 00:54:22,520 --> 00:54:26,440 bill over the ACH network. You can use it to spend on a 933 00:54:26,440 --> 00:54:29,000 debit card. You can send it to someone 934 00:54:29,000 --> 00:54:31,440 peer-to-peer. You can keep it in Bitcoin. 935 00:54:31,440 --> 00:54:33,760 You can pull it out as cash at an ATM. 936 00:54:34,080 --> 00:54:36,560 All of this is completely under the hood. 937 00:54:36,880 --> 00:54:40,280 So essentially you just can go about living your life and you 938 00:54:40,280 --> 00:54:42,200 look like a normal person from the outside. 939 00:54:42,200 --> 00:54:45,240 You're swiping a card, you're getting cash out of an ATM, 940 00:54:45,240 --> 00:54:49,680 you're buying a home. But all of it is built on top of 941 00:54:49,680 --> 00:54:53,480 your foundation on Bitcoin. And it comes with insurance 942 00:54:53,480 --> 00:54:56,200 assurances like good custody models for you. 943 00:54:56,440 --> 00:54:59,560 It comes with insurance on your on your on your Bitcoin. 944 00:55:00,400 --> 00:55:04,440 It, it creates an environment where you know all of the things 945 00:55:04,440 --> 00:55:06,680 that you were worried about holding Bitcoin are gone and all 946 00:55:06,680 --> 00:55:09,920 the limitations you used to have by holding Bitcoin are gone. 947 00:55:10,200 --> 00:55:14,280 So we're we're very much there where you can live your life on 948 00:55:14,280 --> 00:55:19,320 Bitcoin, but be purely and easily accessing every service 949 00:55:19,320 --> 00:55:22,040 you need. What we like to say is live with 950 00:55:22,040 --> 00:55:25,240 the money you prefer, but the financial tools you need. 951 00:55:25,560 --> 00:55:28,640 And that's all to that exact quote you have. 952 00:55:28,640 --> 00:55:32,440 We kind of abstract away all of it, but it's very traditional 953 00:55:32,440 --> 00:55:34,920 looking banking experience and structure. 954 00:55:35,280 --> 00:55:39,400 But under the hood, it's on the high foundation of bedrock of 955 00:55:39,400 --> 00:55:42,560 Bitcoin versus, you know, other, other assets that you could 956 00:55:42,560 --> 00:55:47,360 choose to hold your wealth in. I love the live with the money 957 00:55:47,360 --> 00:55:50,320 that you prefer. That's great. 958 00:55:50,360 --> 00:55:55,720 I, I just had a conversation with last episode was with Scott 959 00:55:55,720 --> 00:56:02,040 Deedles and we talked about, you know, the, the currency that you 960 00:56:02,040 --> 00:56:04,800 are using you in your country and me in my country. 961 00:56:04,800 --> 00:56:09,360 We never opted into that. We never consciously decided, 962 00:56:09,360 --> 00:56:11,680 you know, this is the money that I'm going to use now. 963 00:56:12,280 --> 00:56:14,680 You know, when you were younger, you got some coins, you went to 964 00:56:14,680 --> 00:56:17,600 the store, you got a bread and you know, like that's how the 965 00:56:17,600 --> 00:56:19,800 money works. You never questioned it, right? 966 00:56:19,800 --> 00:56:26,800 So even the fact that you can now say live with the money, I'm 967 00:56:26,800 --> 00:56:30,960 butchering it, but you know. The currency you might prefer 968 00:56:31,040 --> 00:56:32,960 with the financial tools you need, Yes. 969 00:56:33,160 --> 00:56:36,160 Exactly right like live with the with the money that you prefer I 970 00:56:36,520 --> 00:56:39,640 the fact that that is even possible, I think is the entire 971 00:56:39,640 --> 00:56:42,240 point of Bitcoin showing that that is possible. 972 00:56:42,240 --> 00:56:46,920 And before that, you know, as we talked about, you know, people 973 00:56:46,920 --> 00:56:49,840 were aware of the fact that the money that they are forced to 974 00:56:49,840 --> 00:56:52,360 use is not good enough, but there was no option, right? 975 00:56:52,360 --> 00:56:55,520 And it sounds like there's now really an option. 976 00:56:55,520 --> 00:56:59,880 And also at at a user experience level, you know, something that 977 00:56:59,880 --> 00:57:04,360 is on par with what some what, what, what people already know, 978 00:57:04,480 --> 00:57:06,840 right? So that can only be a positive, 979 00:57:07,080 --> 00:57:09,240 a positive, a positive development. 980 00:57:09,240 --> 00:57:12,680 I think I wanted to, I wanted to be mindful of your time. 981 00:57:12,680 --> 00:57:15,720 So, so wrap up with with with three last questions, but I 982 00:57:15,720 --> 00:57:18,400 wanted to ask you, are there any other companies in the Bitcoin 983 00:57:18,400 --> 00:57:22,960 space that excites you? So the the companies and the the 984 00:57:22,960 --> 00:57:29,400 things that I think are the most important problems to be solving 985 00:57:30,400 --> 00:57:35,880 are making custody and improving the custody experience. 986 00:57:35,880 --> 00:57:39,200 So how do we get Bitcoins core value proposition? 987 00:57:39,200 --> 00:57:43,080 We start at the beginning of the day that the call with of you 988 00:57:43,080 --> 00:57:45,680 know, Bitcoin is a bare asset. Just the fact that you can 989 00:57:45,680 --> 00:57:50,480 actually own it and and hold that yourself without an 990 00:57:50,480 --> 00:57:54,160 intermediary is a revolutionary quality of Bitcoin. 991 00:57:54,680 --> 00:58:01,080 And I feel like that is a lot of times an under served aspect of 992 00:58:01,080 --> 00:58:01,880 Bitcoin. Now. 993 00:58:02,080 --> 00:58:05,240 It's great because Satoshi gave us the ability to hold custody 994 00:58:05,240 --> 00:58:09,240 over Bitcoin right out the gate and it's been amazing and it's 995 00:58:09,240 --> 00:58:12,800 worked very well. But I think companies that are 996 00:58:12,880 --> 00:58:18,720 working on custody and improving that, not only how to custody 997 00:58:18,960 --> 00:58:22,680 yourself, but how to transfer that wealth to new generations 998 00:58:22,680 --> 00:58:25,920 with inheritance and things like that is an increase is, is such 999 00:58:25,920 --> 00:58:29,680 an important thing to be working on. 1000 00:58:29,720 --> 00:58:32,720 And so non custodial products are huge. 1001 00:58:32,720 --> 00:58:36,280 And so I, I love what and that can come in many ways. 1002 00:58:36,280 --> 00:58:38,320 I love what Unchained at Casa do. 1003 00:58:38,640 --> 00:58:44,120 I love what wallets like Zeus do to allow you to hold in control 1004 00:58:44,120 --> 00:58:47,360 of your money as well as be able to use it in your day-to-day. 1005 00:58:47,720 --> 00:58:52,280 So I think that is working on that. 1006 00:58:52,280 --> 00:58:56,040 There's probably no better or more important aspect of Bitcoin 1007 00:58:56,040 --> 00:58:59,480 than that then contributing to making that better. 1008 00:59:01,240 --> 00:59:11,720 I also think that, you know, a lot of the, the user experience 1009 00:59:11,840 --> 00:59:15,080 about living on Bitcoin and allowing people to use it as 1010 00:59:15,080 --> 00:59:21,200 kind of a circular economy has been a lot of the focus has been 1011 00:59:21,200 --> 00:59:24,680 on custodial solutions that, you know, are available 1012 00:59:24,680 --> 00:59:27,280 internationally. And I, I just, I think that's 1013 00:59:27,280 --> 00:59:29,400 great and I think it's an important thing that's 1014 00:59:29,400 --> 00:59:33,200 happening, but it's not the most important thing that Bitcoin is 1015 00:59:33,200 --> 00:59:35,400 solving for it. It, you know, a lot of, in a lot 1016 00:59:35,400 --> 00:59:41,920 of ways, custodial experiences of Bitcoin in many ways are just 1017 00:59:42,080 --> 00:59:46,040 degrees different than what we currently have versus non 1018 00:59:46,040 --> 00:59:49,600 custodial or self custodied experiences that allow you to 1019 00:59:49,600 --> 00:59:54,880 hold, send and receive are, are the most important, but they get 1020 00:59:54,960 --> 00:59:59,560 a lot less of the mind share and discussion and funding, frankly. 1021 00:59:59,880 --> 01:00:01,760 So I would like to see that changed. 1022 01:00:01,800 --> 01:00:03,800 I think there's a lot of good companies that are doing that 1023 01:00:04,720 --> 01:00:07,680 and especially you're going to see a lot of these models. 1024 01:00:08,840 --> 01:00:12,920 Start to propagate in a very, in a very kind of open source 1025 01:00:12,920 --> 01:00:15,280 manner. And as we make some big 1026 01:00:15,280 --> 01:00:18,640 breakthroughs on the user experience side, you're going to 1027 01:00:18,640 --> 01:00:23,480 see open source be able to do what it does best and replicate 1028 01:00:23,480 --> 01:00:26,520 very, very fast. And ultimately take over a lot 1029 01:00:26,520 --> 01:00:30,840 of these custodial band aids that we have around the world 1030 01:00:30,840 --> 01:00:32,640 right now that people currently use. 1031 01:00:32,640 --> 01:00:35,360 So I think there's there's no better place to put your time as 1032 01:00:35,360 --> 01:00:39,760 an entrepreneur than helping people hold their money in 1033 01:00:39,760 --> 01:00:42,040 better and easier ways. That's the most important thing 1034 01:00:42,040 --> 01:00:43,600 of Bitcoin. Yeah. 1035 01:00:44,920 --> 01:00:49,520 So is there any misconception that you wish to debunk and how 1036 01:00:49,520 --> 01:00:55,200 would you debunk it? Any misconception? 1037 01:00:55,200 --> 01:01:01,600 Oh my gosh, I think the number one thing, and we've seen this, 1038 01:01:02,280 --> 01:01:07,440 you see this a lot in Bitcoin. So there's a, a thing that 1039 01:01:07,440 --> 01:01:12,360 happened in early, early waves of Bitcoin where some people got 1040 01:01:12,360 --> 01:01:22,320 in so early and they miss, they misappropriate their, the 1041 01:01:22,320 --> 01:01:27,000 randomness and aspect of luck that they were in it so early. 1042 01:01:27,520 --> 01:01:32,280 And they miss attribute that to being extremely smart or seeing 1043 01:01:32,280 --> 01:01:37,520 something that nobody else does. And a lot of that moved into 1044 01:01:38,800 --> 01:01:45,040 them putting their next their next project into weird places. 1045 01:01:45,200 --> 01:01:48,040 A lot of it went to go, you know, propagating a lot of the 1046 01:01:48,040 --> 01:01:52,560 scams that you see and, you know, in the altcoin world said, 1047 01:01:52,560 --> 01:01:54,400 hey, I'm so genius to catch Bitcoin early. 1048 01:01:54,400 --> 01:01:56,200 I'm not. Now I get to show my next 1049 01:01:56,200 --> 01:01:57,920 project. It's even more genius and it's 1050 01:01:57,920 --> 01:02:00,080 better than Bitcoin. And, you know, there's just this 1051 01:02:00,080 --> 01:02:03,200 weird thing that can happen when you're early to something. 1052 01:02:03,200 --> 01:02:06,560 And I consider people who even adopted Bitcoin last year, the 1053 01:02:06,560 --> 01:02:12,640 year before, as early is that they can get their ego back into 1054 01:02:12,640 --> 01:02:15,920 clouding, you know, what Bitcoin is or where it should be going. 1055 01:02:16,400 --> 01:02:18,960 And I think you're going to see a lot of that over this next 1056 01:02:19,120 --> 01:02:23,080 year. You're going to see a huge push 1057 01:02:23,320 --> 01:02:27,440 to change Bitcoin in in certain ways, for better or for worse. 1058 01:02:27,840 --> 01:02:32,080 But I think it's going to be a lot of this is fueled by by ego. 1059 01:02:32,600 --> 01:02:37,160 And if Bitcoin is good at anything, it's smashing that. 1060 01:02:37,200 --> 01:02:40,760 But it's also proven to us that it can take many years to 1061 01:02:40,760 --> 01:02:45,600 recover from very big successful movements based on this ego or 1062 01:02:45,600 --> 01:02:49,280 this this kind of coercive approach to where Bitcoin should 1063 01:02:49,280 --> 01:02:52,280 be. And we're definitely going to be 1064 01:02:52,280 --> 01:02:54,920 experiencing that over the next year in a in a big way. 1065 01:02:55,600 --> 01:02:59,000 Yeah, yeah, One of the things I feel, and I think it ties into 1066 01:02:59,000 --> 01:03:02,120 what we talked about, about, you know, the waves and timing. 1067 01:03:02,120 --> 01:03:06,080 I you know, if you are in Bitcoin for a long time and you 1068 01:03:06,080 --> 01:03:08,840 know it for a long time and you're also a technical person, 1069 01:03:10,160 --> 01:03:12,760 yeah, of course you could build anything on Bitcoin. 1070 01:03:12,760 --> 01:03:15,800 But I think the main question is, should you be right? 1071 01:03:15,920 --> 01:03:22,360 And I think the answer to should you is probably no, because with 1072 01:03:22,440 --> 01:03:27,120 what it is right now, there's still so many more people to 1073 01:03:27,120 --> 01:03:31,640 reach, you know, and, and, and we are already like the analogy, 1074 01:03:31,640 --> 01:03:36,000 like we are, we are already at game time, you know, at the end 1075 01:03:36,000 --> 01:03:39,200 of a game and other people are still unpacking their shoes, you 1076 01:03:39,200 --> 01:03:42,960 know, and if you're building all this other crazy stuff now on 1077 01:03:42,960 --> 01:03:45,440 Bitcoin, it's like you're, they're still putting on their 1078 01:03:45,440 --> 01:03:48,000 shoes and you're just off the pitch, you're shooting up a 1079 01:03:48,000 --> 01:03:50,800 rocket in space or whatever that you could be right. 1080 01:03:50,800 --> 01:03:54,480 But like it, it shouldn't go too fast. 1081 01:03:55,960 --> 01:03:58,200 It should have got too fast. Just because you see it as one 1082 01:03:58,200 --> 01:04:00,720 of the, I don't know, 20 people in the world that that sees 1083 01:04:00,720 --> 01:04:03,960 certain possibility to, to to build on our extent. 1084 01:04:03,960 --> 01:04:05,760 Bitcoin doesn't mean you should, I think. 1085 01:04:05,760 --> 01:04:12,280 And I don't know if it was Sailor who said like, I don't 1086 01:04:12,280 --> 01:04:14,280 know, it's something with conservatism, but I think, I 1087 01:04:14,280 --> 01:04:18,880 think, I think that's spot on. Like we should not ossify the 1088 01:04:18,880 --> 01:04:22,520 code, I think, but we should take it slowly. 1089 01:04:22,520 --> 01:04:25,080 And it's very precarious, right? I think Sailor has a great 1090 01:04:25,080 --> 01:04:28,080 example of, you know, if you if you build that rocket into 1091 01:04:28,080 --> 01:04:32,600 space, you know, even the tiniest bolt on the tiniest part 1092 01:04:32,600 --> 01:04:36,120 of, of a of a little wing has to be correct. 1093 01:04:36,280 --> 01:04:39,320 You know, if you move it a centimeter to the right and you 1094 01:04:39,320 --> 01:04:41,880 know, maybe it goes off course and the entire thing explodes. 1095 01:04:41,880 --> 01:04:44,280 And I feel the same with Bitcoin. 1096 01:04:44,280 --> 01:04:45,680 I think that's a good analogy, right? 1097 01:04:45,680 --> 01:04:50,760 So yes, we should, we should keep building, but at a, at a 1098 01:04:50,760 --> 01:04:54,040 very slow conservative, conservative pace. 1099 01:04:54,120 --> 01:04:57,840 Yeah, yeah. Sorry, I wouldn't say something. 1100 01:04:59,400 --> 01:05:00,760 No, couldn't have said that better. 1101 01:05:00,760 --> 01:05:06,320 Yeah, the the the IT is increasingly the development of 1102 01:05:06,320 --> 01:05:12,200 Bitcoin starts to look a lot like, you know, life critical 1103 01:05:12,480 --> 01:05:14,920 engineering problems. And it has been for a while. 1104 01:05:14,920 --> 01:05:18,320 And we some of the, you know, some people don't think about it 1105 01:05:18,320 --> 01:05:20,760 that as that way. But you know, ultimately, you 1106 01:05:20,760 --> 01:05:24,040 know, what do we all what do we, what a lot of what we have just 1107 01:05:24,040 --> 01:05:27,760 said, what the what the space has said, you know, Bitcoin is, 1108 01:05:28,200 --> 01:05:33,400 is the is where you should be holding the fruit of your labor 1109 01:05:33,480 --> 01:05:36,120 to preserve time here and that what is that time? 1110 01:05:36,120 --> 01:05:41,320 It's your life. And so they're they're in needs 1111 01:05:41,320 --> 01:05:45,240 to have an approach that recognizes the seriousness of 1112 01:05:45,240 --> 01:05:48,200 that. Yeah, yeah, I agree. 1113 01:05:48,840 --> 01:05:52,120 All right, last question, and I ask everyone the same question, 1114 01:05:52,560 --> 01:05:55,960 which is what is a core belief that you will never let go? 1115 01:05:59,080 --> 01:06:02,760 Oh, I think and one of this is again related. 1116 01:06:02,760 --> 01:06:11,400 What we're talking about. I I truly believe the a a a life 1117 01:06:11,400 --> 01:06:18,800 path that is geared towards expanding and driving optimism 1118 01:06:18,800 --> 01:06:23,760 in your life is is the one thing that you should follow. 1119 01:06:23,760 --> 01:06:26,960 So what what leads you and those around you to a brighter, 1120 01:06:27,200 --> 01:06:33,960 healthier, happier future is absolutely critical. 1121 01:06:33,960 --> 01:06:38,600 And you know, whenever you see yourself in any type of 1122 01:06:38,960 --> 01:06:46,440 nihilistic or, or bleak understanding of the future, 1123 01:06:46,920 --> 01:06:51,760 that is a subject of you are probably not optimizing for the 1124 01:06:51,760 --> 01:06:54,920 tools you have around you to change your situation and, and 1125 01:06:55,280 --> 01:07:02,320 living a path where, hey, if I'm not in a state of optimism, I, I 1126 01:07:02,320 --> 01:07:06,920 have, I have let go my own agency in my life in certain 1127 01:07:06,920 --> 01:07:09,240 ways for someone else to tell a story. 1128 01:07:09,560 --> 01:07:13,760 And so I'd say that's one thing I've always tried to pursue is 1129 01:07:13,760 --> 01:07:17,840 work on things that I believe Dr. optimism in my life and 1130 01:07:17,840 --> 01:07:21,560 those around me. So it's and you know, maybe some 1131 01:07:21,560 --> 01:07:25,160 naivete is in there, but I think that's required to to make it 1132 01:07:25,160 --> 01:07:28,000 through. Love that man, thanks for 1133 01:07:28,000 --> 01:07:29,960 sharing. Thanks so much for your time, I 1134 01:07:29,960 --> 01:07:34,080 really appreciate it. I will link to your social 1135 01:07:34,200 --> 01:07:37,800 accounts, your Folds website so people can check that out. 1136 01:07:37,800 --> 01:07:41,680 And yeah man, appreciate you and happy to to be talking it. 1137 01:07:43,560 --> 01:07:46,120 Was great to be here, always a good conversation. 1138 01:07:47,040 --> 01:07:49,360 Cheers man. I hope you enjoyed this episode 1139 01:07:49,360 --> 01:07:52,200 and if you did, check out some of my other episodes to learn 1140 01:07:52,200 --> 01:07:54,680 why Bitcoin is the most important subject you must 1141 01:07:54,680 --> 01:07:57,640 understand and adopt. If you want, you can follow and 1142 01:07:57,640 --> 01:08:02,920 connect with me on Twitter X I'm at bom K, that's at BR AM K, and 1143 01:08:02,920 --> 01:08:06,000 if you have any feedback or questions, just reach out. 1144 01:08:06,200 --> 01:08:08,880 I read and reply to every single message. 1145 01:08:09,200 --> 01:08:11,640 I appreciate your support and hope you'll be here for our next 1146 01:08:11,640 --> 01:08:13,160 episode. Thanks for listening. 1147 01:08:13,480 --> 01:08:13,720 Bye.