Coming up in this episode of Bitcoin for Millennials, what is
the main thing people need to unlearn before they can
understand Bitcoin I. Think the it's a really good
question because I like I'm, I'm trying to think of like, what
did I unlearn? But that's going to be different
for everyone. I think a lot of people who
currently are in bit corners, what they'll need to unlearn is
like, it really just starts in a way with information where they
feel like, like if they get told, like if you vote for this
other party, if you vote for this other politician, they're
going to make life better. They're going to make the system
better. And I think the unlearning that
people need to do is assuming that someone else is going to
make their life better and they just vote for that and that
person makes the change happen. Like sort of like if you point
me to the critical thing, like if you can make people unlearn
one thing and that will get the most Bitcoin adoption, that's
the thing I'd point at like just making more people realize that
nobody is going to like materially in the long run, make
your life way better, better than you can do it yourself.
So if people were to unlearn that part, then they'll
eventually kind of like, I think a lot of them will eventually
end up a Bitcoin because they'll realize, OK, I need to do it
myself. And this is a really powerful
tool to be able to do that. All right, hey there.
This is from Constant and you're listening to Bitcoin for
millennials. In this episode, I'm joined by
some vouchers. He's a renowned Bitcoin
researcher and analyst from the Netherlands, and he currently
leads the marketing and content efforts at River, a prominent US
based Bitcoin brokerage. With a passion for Bitcoin
education. Sam has contributed extensively
to the field, including producing Rivers renowned
Lightning reports. Welcome, Sam.
Thanks Blaam. It's refreshing to hear a
podcaster who can pronounce my last name.
Yeah, it's actually funny. You know, like I, I think I am a
bit lucky with my name, but a lot of Dutch people, English, if
I their names and then it it sounds kind of weird, right?
So I just say Vauthers, what do? English people say, I guess, do
people, do people call you like Bram or how do they do it?
Yeah, they say Bram. So that's that's OK.
And then I say, yeah, Canstein like Goldstein.
Yeah, I. Like that but you have in your
Twitter bio, I think Walters right?
Like pronounces, but. Like Walters to help them
pronounce it. That's great.
Honestly, I don't care that much.
It's just becoming a thing at this point where people look at
that and they all think it's like Wooters or something and I
just want to help them out because they feel bad and.
Yeah, I like Walters. That's great.
That's, that's a good one. Yeah, man.
Well, thanks for coming on. I I think it's nice to talk to a
fellow fellow Dutchie. We're doing it in English, but I
think, I think we'll manage. And yeah, I, I wanted to start
with, you know, you're, you're a millennial too.
And I usually ask, you know, like, because the podcast is
focused on millennials and I kind of started when I realized
that lots of millennials aren't really thinking about Bitcoin or
money or inflation, you know, And so this is like one of the
goals I have. And I usually ask other
millennials, like, how do you experience talking about Bitcoin
with our generational peers? Like what is?
What is your experience? There's, I think there's a lot
of variety there. There are some people who like,
obviously like us. There are some people who get it
or who are at least concerned about kind of their future.
And then there are people who absolutely don't want to hear
it. Kind of to your point, I think a
lot of people just concern themselves with other stuff,
with partying, with like just being super focused on trying to
buy a house. I think happens a lot of our
generation too. And like they're so focused on
that that they're not really thinking about sort of like the
bigger game of money that's being played around that.
So yeah, I think like for a lot of people, they don't really
want to think about it. They're busy with their jobs,
with their careers, with their relationships, with working out,
with all kinds of things. And for them, it's like it's
just not top of mind. Like they've they've seen a lot
of their friends as well get into like the wider crypto space
and start gambling and messing around, but they're just not as
interested. Like they've heard about it
before. They feel like it's kind of past
at this point. And now they're just looking,
you know, to keep living their life and do what it is that
you're doing. So it's it's tricky, like you
get a lot of different reactions, I think.
What about you? What's your experience been?
Well, what I think is interesting, I, I see the same,
but I find it just so fascinating that once I came to
the realization that like that the quality of the money
influences all the choices in your life, you know, even even
subconsciously, that makes it like the most important subject
that we should talk about and fix at the same time, right?
And so people are building their careers or focusing on it,
right? Or they want to try to start a
family or buy a house, etcetera. Those are very big things,
right? Those are main activities in
everyone's life basically. And also those activities are
also influenced by the quality of the money.
And so I think it's actually very surprising that people
don't think about it because they are so connected.
But on the other side, they have no clue.
I I said this many times on the podcast, too, like, you know, we
grew up in this country. We got some coins or some bills.
We went to the bakery, we got a bread.
And, you know, the money works. Like there's there's nothing
that you have to doubt or think about or ask about, right.
And so I think it is, yeah, just kind of like how we grew up.
We never had to challenge it or think about it.
And, and I think that permeates to, you know, the adult life
right now. But I cannot imagine that, you
know, like yesterday I went, I went to the supermarket just to
get like some dinner and something for breakfast.
And it was €30 or €33 or something.
And other people have to see that too and think like that is
not normal. Like it, it wasn't like that.
It wasn't like that when we grew up.
And so it, it is within our lifetime already way different
now compared to our youth. So that is actually what
surprises me in the fact that not a lot of people actually
focus on this. And I, I have the same
experience as you. So that is kind of it.
And, and even, and, and this was one of my motivations to start a
podcast. Like I had a week where I talked
to several friends, some that are really well off and they
have no Bitcoin. Well, one has one Bitcoin now
because I, I pushed him. But yeah, if I ask a question
like, hey, if you call your bank and you want to get, you know,
this, this is a guy who has money, but like, if you want to
get 100K cash out, what do you think happens?
You know, and he was like, yeah, I don't know, maybe I have to
wait two days or something and then, yeah, I don't know, I get
it. Maybe they ask what I'm going to
use it for or something. But you know, it's fine.
Like that, that type of reaction, you know, and so he
sees that waiting maybe is a little nuisance, but not like a
big problem. Whereas, you know, I was on the
other side of this conversation and this was during a 2 hour car
ride actually, where I was like, but you worked really hard, you
saw the company and now if you want to get access to the reward
you got, there's some random entity between you and that
reward, you know, and, and the woman or the man you talk to on
the on the phone, they just have a job, they have their
instructions. They don't really care about
you. And they're going to be like,
well, what are you going to use it for, Sir?
You know, like, I see that as a problem, you know, like you
don't really own what you think you own, but he just didn't see
that. Hey there, I want to ask you for
a quick favor. I noticed something interesting.
75% of my viewers aren't subscribed yet.
Subscribing helps me grow this channel, ensuring more great
content each week. So if you're enjoying our
conversations on Bitcoin for millennials, please consider
hitting the subscribe button on YouTube or the follow button on
your favorite podcasting app. I'm super grateful for everyone
who already joined and shared their thoughts.
Your feedback really keeps me going, and I want to ask you to
continue doing that. I tried to respond to all the
comments and also the emails that I get and DMS on Twitter,
etcetera. So don't stop doing that.
I'll keep going. Now let's get back to the
conversation. A lot of people have to
experience that first. I think like there's a, there's
a lot of resistance, I think especially over here because
we're, we're pretty well off. Like that just causes a lot of
people to be like, yeah, it's annoying, but it's not that
annoying that I'm not able to live my life and enjoy the
things that I want to do. And I think beyond that, there's
also a lot of people that like this kind of this, this problem
of money gets pushed onto their lives.
Like you suddenly have to start caring about money, but a lot of
people don't want to care about it to the extent of like, we
have to fix this big system. That's not their life mission.
They want to accomplish other things or have other goals or
interests. And even though they don't
really want to, they suddenly get dragged into this kind of,
like, global monetary conflict that's just, like, way beyond
the scope of things that they care about, even if society
forces you to care about it. And it's like increasingly
forcing people into a position where you cannot leave your
money idle in the bank because it's just losing value over
time. And that's a very painful
reality that gets pushed onto people that they like.
They're just not happy with it. And they would rather stick
their head in the sand to not have to deal with it.
And, you know, then face reality and be like, OK, maybe I need to
start becoming more financially literate, start making smarter
decisions with my money. Because if I don't, then it's
going to start losing its value over time.
It's a very difficult reality to accept, and a lot of people will
accept it a lot later than they might have wished they had in
hindsight. But it is the world that we're
moving towards. Even if you're privileged enough
to live in a wealthier country. Yeah, yeah, 100%.
But I think that's also what kind of like pushes me to talk
about this more. Like IA 100% agree with the
concept of you have to experience the problem before
you can see a solution. But if this is going to be the
problem that you and I kind of see coming and envision, right,
like I want to help people think about this before they actually
have that problem. Because at that moment when
they're like, oh shit, I have to get my money out of the bank,
you know, Ding Dong, the money is not there, you know?
So or, or you'll just be super busy because everyone suddenly
wants to help at the same time. Yeah, I I mean, I totally get
this. I agree, but it's just.
Hard, it's, it's hard, but it, it's actually a few episodes
back I, I talked with Maya Barbu who's from Suriname and she kind
of opened my eyes to the fact that, you know, I always thought
that, you know, people who experienced this problem
already, they are probably studying Bitcoin and adopting it
and trying to get out of their system, you know, of the money
that they're, that they're forced to use and, and well, you
kind of see that in Nigeria, for example.
But then Maya told me, you know, the people here make on average
like $200.00 a month or or 300 ish, something like that.
And they're all just struggling and, and hustling to survive.
They don't have time to actually think about it and study.
And that kind of humbled me more, I would say, because I
always thought, you know, I figured out Bitcoin without
having the actual problem. I may see the problem.
I don't have the problem and I'm still acting on it, right?
But that is super privileged, super, super privileged, right?
And I think that's a great, that's a great realization.
And it also shows that and and that's I think also why we are
both advocating for this. Like the people who are already
experiencing the problem, they have no time to study this,
right. And so I yeah, that's kind of.
What I feel very often, even if they have time to study it, it
is too complicated for the average person to understand why
exactly the financial system is so messed up.
And even if you understand every little detail about it, that
still doesn't give you any influence to, to change it.
And, and I think like part of the reason why we started
talking was a couple of weeks ago, I think it's been now there
was this video that went viral of like Biden's economic
advisor. I was like struggling to explain
how the financial system works. And you know, all the Bitcoiners
laugh at that and go like, oh, that's crazy that he can't
explain it. But to be honest, for me, I'm
looking at that and thinking like, like, it doesn't even
matter that much whether he would understand all of the
details or not. The core principle here is that
all of them are OK with how it works.
So like who exactly is printing the money, whether that's the
central bank or whether it's the government or who made the exact
decision? For me, it's like like, sure, in
in practice it matters, but like even if everyone knew exactly
who was doing that, I don't think anything would change
about it. Nobody has an interest in
changing that big system from the inside.
So that's essentially why we Bitcoin, because we think it's
just not going to happen over there.
So let's make it happen ourselves in a different kind of
way. So people get kind of stuck up
on that, like, oh, if these guys can't even explain it, then, you
know, like, we've got a real problem.
But even if that guy would be able to perfectly explain it,
the vast majority of the global population can't replicate that
explanation, can't explain to the average person in a way that
they're going to care how the financial system works.
So that just doesn't really get us anywhere.
It's like it's kind of a distraction, kind of a waste of
time. I agree.
Like if he would be able to explain it, he would still
advocate for it. Like we need inflation to
incentivize people to spend money and grow the Yeah, yeah.
So, but this is, this is a good point because I think the, I
think it was Hayek who said, you know, like we have to circumvent
this in like a slide about the way, right?
I think that's what we're doing. And that's also how I see
Bitcoin. Like I don't see moving into
Bitcoin as buying Bitcoin. I literally see it as moving,
right? So I have economic energy saved
in a system that, you know, is not working, and I'm just moving
it to a totally different system.
I'm literally getting on another boat or another planet almost.
Yeah. So I know your introduction to
Bitcoin was true, like an online game economy.
Can you share a bit about that experience and and how it shaped
your understanding of Bitcoin? Well, like in a way that also
made me very privileged because I first learned about Bitcoin,
as you mentioned, like through this online economy in a game
where basically you have like a lot of people know World of
Warcraft, I played like kind of an equivalent of that.
The second biggest game, it was called Runescape and it had its
own trading economy in there. And similar to World of
Warcraft, if you had things in that game, you could exchange it
for real world money because you had some people who are like,
you know, why am I going to spend my whole weekend trying to
gather enough resources to pay for this expensive thing in the
game if I just have money that I can change it for and then I
have it immediately. So an economy emerged there and
you could basically change the value that you had in the game
for real life money. The issue that you have with
that is when you're trading virtual goods, you like, you
can't really use something like PayPal because you don't have a
physical proof of the delivery that was made.
So people can just charge back. So in this kind of like online
marketplace, you need payment methods that can just be charged
back or you get tons of fraud and then the cost of trading
just becomes really high. So in there, people started
accepting Bitcoin gradually and that's when I first started
looking into into it like, OK, that's interesting.
And as I started learning more about it, I realized like this
can be used by anyone anywhere, hence the appeal of course.
And sort of like in that whole journey, also realized that a
lot of people who were gathering a lot of resources in that game
where in some cases from poorer countries, because if they would
spend 10 hours a day gathering resources on there and exchange
that for dollars, ultimately then they would earn like $10 a
day or something, which for them was a lot of money in some
places. There were a lot of people from
Venezuela, for example, that we're doing this.
So that really started opening my eyes to like, as a like
pretty young dude, like hold on, like not every country in the
world has a well functioning economy because there's
literally people who can earn better money playing a game and
gathering some stuff on there. Then they could like working a
real job. So that kind of started making
me, you know, it's like humbling in a way where you realize like,
wow, this is the best money these people can earn.
Like there is no not necessarily much of A future for them to be
able to build up much of A career to have like financial
stability and things they need to resort to stuff like this.
So that really opened my eyes to a lot of things as well.
I find that so interesting, right?
Like that is what we previously talked about like not not seeing
the problem, right? But money creates incentives,
right? Like we can agree on a certain
value exchange and an amount for the reward, right?
Like the, the number of units of a currency that that I get, but
the quality of the money determines the quality of my
work also, right? So I could say one thing, but if
my reward is, is bad, you know, is, is, is broken, then you
know, I'm not going to put like all the value that I could put
in or, or all the energy. I, I'm not putting that into the
work, right? Like, I love there's these like
Tik Toks and short videos about like these building inspectors
in America and they go to like newly built homes and they show
how it should be done and how it is done.
And it's just such poor, poor quality, right?
But and so I think that's slowly the case up until the point, as
you, I think illustrated, there are people in countries that
would rather play games. They are more incentivized to
play games all day than to help build homes or make food for
people. Or, you know, do whatever is
actually valuable for like, a community, right?
And I, I think there's a really extreme example of this as well.
Like your, like your target audience is obviously
millennials, but even younger generations in a lot of cases.
Like if you ask them what do you want to be when you grow up or
what would you ideally like to become?
All of them want to be like streamers.
Yeah. Like YouTube celebrities, TikTok
celebrities, like that's sort of idealized as this is the sort of
the peak of, of what you could accomplish in a career.
So we're just seeing like, well, that's more related to the
attention game, I think, than the money game.
It's like more related to status than money necessarily.
But we're just seeing generations change because of
digital stuff in general. Well, it's what you aspire to
also, right, Because there's this survey, right?
What you refer to in America they say like I want to be an
influencer and in China they say I want to be an astronaut or a
physical physicist or something. So you know, it's also it, it,
it also changes that entire culture in a sense and and
therefore also the the society in, in a few years.
Because if it feels, if you feel way more incentivized to try to
do like TikTok dances on the streets when you're 23 instead
of starting a physics study or master whatever, right?
Like eventually. We're gonna miss some physicists
and like people who can actually propel the societies forward
instead of Oh yeah, there's there's on the Internet.
There's a fun thing about this in the Netherlands, I think,
where it's like Amsterdam is something like 200,000
marketers. And I mean, I'm one of them so
I'm one to talk, but 200,000 marketers and barely any of them
can fix their own tap or something like that.
Yeah, that's a good one. So when, when you saw that like
and and you look at Bitcoin now what, what are aspects of of the
value proposition of Bitcoin that attracted you first and and
how do you view them now? I think what attracted me first
was the digital scarcity aspect, because the game that I had
played, it also had scarce digital goods in there.
And that was, and they were worth a lot as a result because
they would never be created again.
And that for me was the thing that made it easiest for me to
understand Bitcoin because it's like it's just a thing that
wasn't common between the game and Bitcoin itself.
And for me, it just helped me understand like, OK, digital
scarcity I get. And now apparently we have a
system to do that where nobody's in charge.
That was the weird part to me and the part where I felt like
there's got to be some kind of catch here.
Like, how could there be nobody in charge?
And took a little while for me to figure that out.
But that resonated the strongest with me, not necessarily because
I saw it as like, I really want to hold this and like hope that
it becomes worth a lot today, but more like technologically as
an invention. That seems super fascinating to
me because it's not something I thought we'd previously had in
the world. So I was mostly just interested
from that perspective is like, how is this going to change the
world that we live in? Like, like, are people actually
going to adopt this in a similar way?
And are all of those kind of like economies and trading
mechanics and everything that I've witnessed in my youth, are
they going to replicate around this thing in the real world
now? And you know, like, what kind of
role can I play in that? And as well, like when I got
into IT, people were constantly talking about Bitcoin as a
medium of exchange, like really celebrating whenever a company
like Microsoft or like Newegg or all of these marketplaces
started being like, oh, we start accepting Bitcoin as a payment
method, like everyone was talking about that.
So I was also really interested for the digital payments
perspective, which is initially kind of like how I first
interfaced with it from trading goods in the game for real life
money, as we talked about. So it's really those two things
for me, it's the payments aspect and just purely from a
technological level, I'm not a technical person by background,
but I was fascinated by how we could put something out there in
the world in a real functioning way.
And it seemed to be working. There were just so many
questions around, like is it going to stick around,
obviously, but that really caught my attention.
Just just, I was just really impressed.
Do you feel it like still the same now?
Is it more proven or are there now also other things that that
you really see? Yeah, I think both.
It's definitely more proven like I am, I'm less concerned that
it's going to go away than I was back then.
Like back then, I mean, people had no clue.
Like, is this going to stick around?
Is it going to be worth much? That's completely changed.
But nowadays, like things I'm concerned about is like what
kind of people have we gotten interested in Bitcoin?
Because when I got into it initially, like you had a lot
more people who care about the privacy and the freedom aspect
of it and being able to transact with anyone around the world.
And it feels like nowadays we have a like witches do.
We have way more people that care about the number going up,
about making a whole bunch of money and they aren't
necessarily as interested in sort of preserving the core
values of the network. So I'm a little more concerned
now than I was then about like, like, OK, this I'm, I'm sure now
the system will continue to exist.
The question I have now is like, what's it going to look like?
Like it's the vast majority of people.
Are they only going to focus on making more money and then
exchanging that for dollars or whatever?
Or will they still care about actually switching over to a
system with a limited supply? Like is that, is that for some
people just like a talking point in the hopes that it will make
the price go up? Or do they actually
fundamentally care that we don't just have a small group of
people that decide how many dollars there's going to be
tomorrow or how many euros or whatever currency?
Like if we lose that kind of like that aspect, that core
principle of the network where people will just like happily
grasp any narrative that accomplishes the outcome they
want, which is having more money, then that would be a true
pity, I think. So that's what I'm a bit
concerned about because you just see a lot of hype around price
going up and a lot of people who will just watch anything happen
that makes the price go up and cheer them on.
Well, to be honest, I think we also have had that phase.
I think a lot of people get into Bitcoin because number go up.
I, I, I think it's good marketing actually, but it takes
some time to get to I'd say where we are, where we are now,
right. And so I think every cycle
there's this new batch of people that that get into it mainly,
I'd say because number go up and well, yeah, if if you're curious
enough and you die, you like want to understand what this is
then. Well, we both know that the
rabbit hole is kind of like an endless thing, right?
And and you get into Bitcoin based on, you know, your age,
experience, whatever interests from from a different dimension.
So I would agree, but I think it it also takes time to feel maybe
for us that the people new to this actually, you know, go
beyond the the number number go up.
I mean, took me several years to.
Yeah, I mean, to get there, I know it takes time for sure.
I'm just like I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm wondering if it's going to keep
happening at the same kind of rate or if less and less people
will get interested in it for that reason.
And then in the long term, just like what, what kind of effects
will that have? Are we eventually just going to
have like a almost like a PayPal, but with the 21 million,
will that be the outcome or are people going to keep trying to
fight for having like proper tools that allow us to have a
decentralized system? So we're kind of at a
interesting point in time, I think, for that with all of the
regulatory conversations and people trying to figure out
like, really like, how do we make this thing scale and what
should be built there? So I think we live in a super
interesting time for it. Like I'm glad we're no longer
wondering like, is this thing going to get banned or limited
somehow? And it's much more like how you
know what shape is it going to take moving forward.
Yeah, I think my view didn't really change that much on it.
I I always saw Bitcoin as like a zero or everything thing, you
know, like there's no, I I don't see a world where Bitcoin ends
up in like this in between phase or, or, or like, yeah, and ends
up at, at, at some mediocre store value asset.
I think the arguments for that are super clear.
I think finite, provable, finite supply is the main thing.
Everything else where you could store wealth in can be created
of those things. More of those things can be
created, right? So therefore Bitcoin is superior
in that sense. But yeah, so I always thought
it's either zero or like, you know what some people say the
black hole value like everything, everyone's going to
store their productivity, the reward for the productivity in
in Bitcoin, I think. I would agree, but but I would
mostly credit that remote. Like a large part of that I
would credit to the fact that we just know that they'll keep
printing Fiat currencies and not necessarily to Bitcoin.
It's like, I mean, Bitcoin's design just needs to be what it
is for a lot of the store value to move over to it.
Like it just needs to continue to not screw up for that to
happen. So I agree with you on the like
the store of value sense. I just like even from a store of
value perspective, I'm just concerned that in the long run,
the vast majority of people would just store their money on
an exchange or with some kind of custodian and like everything
fully KYC D and controlled by the government, governments
rather. And I just wondered like, what
implications is that going to have?
Like once they really start screwing up so hard that they
just don't know where to get the money to pay off their debts.
That's where I start wondering like are they going to start
touching those exchanges and like collecting bigger and
bigger taxes from people who stored our value in Bitcoin?
And are we then kind of like back to where like, I guess, I
guess like back to where we are now in the sense that, you know,
they're just able to touch all of the assets so they can keep
printing and just taking more money from the people.
That's a bit like, it's a bit of a dark, gloomy view, but it's
just something that I think about and I'm concerned about
because we're trying to get away from that point where they can
just like right now, they're confiscating mass amounts of
wealth from people through inflation.
But if at that point they can just directly take it from
people's Bitcoin accounts, then. Yeah, I would agree.
I think this is the biggest challenge.
What I would say is that the inflation is covert in some,
well, to some degree super true. You know, it's, it's, it's
covert and a lot of people have been led to believe that it's
necessary and normal and blah, blah, like, like all these
things, right? And I think the confiscation,
you know, like, like the gold confiscation, you know, as as
the prime example also was in a time where information was way
more scattered, right? And so I think it's good to look
at the past to see what could happen.
But in doing that exact thing in 2024 is never going to fly.
I think it just doesn't work like that.
You know, that overtly doing that in in such an open fashion,
I, I don't think that's going to fly.
There's also, well, we see what political, you know, power this
brings in a sense, you know, with, with the votings in, in
the Congress, like in the, in the, in the past two weeks, this
has now become a thing. And I, I agree with you that
this is the biggest challenge. Like how are we going to
overcome the fact that governments will come for the
Bitcoin? You know, I think that is very
clear. But I think if we zoom out a bit
more, I think conceptually, so I don't know how it's going to
work, but I feel like there's going to be a power shift
towards the Bitcoiners in a sense, right?
Because if a tax person is going to investigate a Bitcoiner and
they say like, well, I got your KYC Coinbase account here, you
bought this, you stored it there.
You know, you took it off Coinbase to this wallet.
Now you have to pay. And then when you say, you know,
I lost it in a boating accident and they talk to 100 Bitcoiners
that all say that there's going to be an interesting moment
where they're going to sue someone.
I'd say, right? And they're going to be like,
well, Sam, you're fucked. You know, you have this amount
of Bitcoin and you're going to have to pay.
And you say, I am not in the possession of these Bitcoin.
And that's going to be an it's like the most classic power
struggle. It's like he said, she said,
right? And then there's going to be a
person that's going to go to court and they're going to say,
I just don't have access. I don't know.
And then the government's going to say, well, you should share
your password. And then we'll we'll be at the
lowest point of the lowest point, which is they're going to
compel speech, which no judge is going to be in favor of.
I would say, I would argue, but I mean, with the ETF, we've seen
things, you know, can go different.
But this is so public. It's it's 2024.
It's so public, right? And.
I fully agree with everything you're saying, so I.
Think that that is really the the thing it's so public and so
transparent and Bitcoin is a worldwide movement or community,
right. There's very powerful and
influential people that are also already bitcoiners.
They're also in the Senate, you know, all all these things like
so it it permeates to all these individuals and so the
collectives that are trying to, you know, assert this this power
in different ways. They will slowly be be broken
up. That doesn't change the fact
that America will probably and desperately look for, you know,
funds to pay for their for their interests, you know, But yeah,
that's kind of how I view it. I mean, I fully agree with with
everything you said there, but I would like maybe the nuance what
I previously said. I'm not, I'm not saying they
will specifically like like necessarily tax you directly and
just overtly take the money. They can also just run the same
game that they've run for a long time, which is just starting to
run fractional reserves on exchanges.
And if you're in a scenario where let's say like all the
miners are KYC so you can't send like, and they decide who gets
to send money or not, which is like, again, this is like, it's
a hypothetical scenario. But if you get to that point
where all the minors are or the vast majority of them are very
much controlled and the exchange even decides whether you're
allowed to withdraw or not, then it can get a bit tricky where
people can't move their money off an exchange so easily.
And if they can move it off an exchange or only from one to
another. But the government basically
says the way we're going to collect these taxes is just by
forcing the exchange to inflate the supply, like to pretend that
there's Bitcoin there that isn't actually there and all you're
holding our numbers on this one exchange that you're using or on
another exchange. But across the system, we start
going beyond the 21,000,000. So for me, like the, the point
I'm trying to say is like, I think the like sort of the core
values of Bitcoin, the ability to freely transacted, they're
they're almost intertwined with that 21 million because the
moment that stops existing and we all just keep our money at
Bitcoin bank, so to speak. And like I'm hoping like a way
to counteract that, for example, is having like proper proof of
reserves and proof of liabilities and all of this
stuff that can help a lot there, But that's not really something
we're seeing happen in practice with most exchanges today.
And even when they do proof of reserves, there's no proof of
liabilities and just all kinds of other questions around that.
So that's just a bit of a like an unanswered direction of like
are we properly covering that to make sure we don't get in those
kinds of issues? Yeah, I'd say last, last reply
to that. I, I also agree.
I think I, I think they could try it.
But one of the things that I think is really great about
Bitcoin is that we can force this transparency, right?
Like as you said, like proof, proof of reserves.
I think it's just one thing. Yeah, it's a, it's a fairpoint.
Eventually these are also businesses, right?
So if, if there are exchanges that that would not comply with
this, you know, ask for transparency, then customers
should be able to move if they are then blocked, etcetera,
right? Like, I mean, this is my, my
entire thing like that, that I don't know if that's going to
happen, man, because it's just so it's just so it's just so
public, right? So if you're a public traded, if
Coinbase is going to halt Bitcoin withdrawals, they have a
real huge problem. I think I think so too, but I, I
would like caveat that by saying, I think by that point
the world will also have changed quite significantly.
And, and, and the part that I guess like back to our
discussion of like what kind of responses do you get when you
talk to millennials, for example, is like, I, I think
we're potentially going to move towards a world where like the
people who are interested in Bitcoin, they're largely in and
a lot of the rest of the population feel like they've
just missed out. And we're now trying to get them
in to be able to offload our Bitcoin or whatever, which is
like, if you talk to an actual Bitcoiner, we don't want to do
that. We want to keep as much as
possible. We don't want to share it.
We just care about the people around us and that's why we
share it. But I think.
That point illustrates why we need to talk about this.
Because just that fault is such a Fiat 0 sum game fault, right?
That's what sorry for the boomers, but a lot of like
boomer critics, especially in our country will be like, yeah,
you know, you want to get me into Bitcoin because then you
can dump it on me. Like dump for what?
Dude? Like the entire reason like
Bitcoin is that I don't like the our political currency like
that. That's the entire point.
So that shows they don't understand, but it also shows
still that the people who listen to that also are not thinking
for themselves and they don't understand, you know, And well,
then we get back to the beginning when we talked about,
you know, I think we are both feel the urge to talk about this
more. And, yeah, of course, like, some
people are going to get it and some people are not going to get
it. Now, I get lots of messages, to
be honest, from all sorts of people.
Last week I got a message from a guy who is a high school teacher
and he and his wife, he he messaged me like a year ago or
something also about Bitcoin. And then he was like, yeah, I'm
going to trade a bit this and that.
I said, just let me know how that goes and I'll, I'll hear
from you, right. And then like six months ago or
something, he sent me a message. So he's also, he's like 33, I
think 34 or something like that. And he sent me a message.
He's like, yeah, you were right. I'm a shit trader.
I cannot compete. I panic sold Bitcoin.
Now I have less Bitcoin than before, right?
So he, he went through it and then like last week, he sent me
a message. He's like, yeah, me and my
girlfriend have this crazy idea. We're going to sell everything
we have, sell our house, We're going to travel around the world
with our child. I'm going to have 500K cash.
How would you approach this, you know, buying Bitcoin and, and
living off and I'm like, damn, you know, like that's one year,
the one year of this high school teacher guy who went through
this entire learning curve, you know, and, and so it is
happening. People are are starting to think
for themselves from all levels of, of society, I'd say.
And so I think it is happening, but it's a slow thing because
it's it's, you know, I like the mind virus concept, you know,
like it is that. And I think so too.
Like I'm not saying bitcoins not going to grow, but I think like
a large number of the people at this point, like it's existed
for 15 years. A large number of the people who
are like kind of like intellectually curious about it.
Like I'd say a pretty big portion is already in at this
point and the rest will have more and more resistance.
So then my concern is kind of like moving towards the future.
As things get more dire financially for everyone, people
will start finding scapegoats for like, where can we now get
the money to pay for the situation we've gotten ourselves
in? And they'll try to pit US
against them in a way, or them against us.
Yeah, well, that, that's also one point I wanted to make is
that when I said like powers are going to also shift to Bitcoin,
as I think also Balashi talks about this a lot, you know, he
eventually goes to, you know, well then you just move, right?
I don't think a lot of people would actually want to move.
Totally agreed. But the, the, the, the, the, the
power projection of no government towards people or
people towards the government. I, I, I do think like that can
shift right, because even though if you know, I, I don't see
hyper bitcoinization, as you know, like an entire country on
a Bitcoin standard. I, I don't, I, I just don't
think that will be practical. But having like a Bitcoin backed
currency where you actually follow the entire ethos of
Bitcoin and being ultra transparent, the proof of
reserves and on all these things, right.
And if you can have like a paper currency on top of that, I think
that is fine because then you have Bitcoin as the base layer
asset that forces the transparency of the, you know,
the well, then it's kind of like, no, that's not Fiat, but
like the, the, the paper. Currency, you know.
I I kind of see that model being.
A possibility. Yeah, like more than only
Bitcoin. I I would say that that is
probably. And, and I would agree like,
yeah, maybe the nuance of stuff I've said as well is like I
remain optimistic about Bitcoin and like I'm, I'm just hopeful
that the worst case scenario we end up with would be that like,
you know, we enforce the 21 million and people will try to
mess with that. And whether they'll succeed or
not is, you know, that's a big question.
Mark you. Can mess with that now you can
start your Bitcoin Sam whatever so.
Yeah, well, well, more like in a sense of like try to dilute it
via exchanges and what alt? And kind of like like SBF with
FTX, they also ran this whole model and it goes on for a
while. They just went a little too
extreme with it. If they wouldn't have been in it
as extreme, maybe it would have gone on for a decade for all you
know until people find out. Oh, actually the Bitcoin isn't
there, so. But also if, if we get more
wealthy or Bitcoiners get more wealthy and more influential,
and it looks like, you know, Coinbase as a random example is
cooking the books, you know, and then they have paper Bitcoin.
I don't know who said this, but I, I believe it like Bitcoiners
that gain power are also incentivized to protect Bitcoin,
right? So it's like it's it's it's like
a nice loop. And so there will be people that
will sue Coinbase, right? And force them to be actually
transparent and show all these things like that is I think the
main point I would follow is the fact that, you know, banks are
cooking books and you had the whole 2008 financial crisis.
All, you know, everything is abstracted and obscured and all
these things and general population has no clue.
They still don't understand it. You know, if the base layer
asset is Bitcoin, that is just going to be way, way more
difficult I. Totally, yeah.
And this to me is one of the most fascinating things about
Bitcoin is because what we're seeing in the Fiat system, it's
like, to your point earlier, it's all incentives.
Like if we recreated a financial system from scratch, we'd get a
lot of that same stuff all over again.
And it's now that we're introducing this one base rule
that people can't change through their opinions or, or mistakes
or whatever it is that they've done to make them do things they
should not be doing. Like that's really what's
interesting to me. And I really wonder in general,
like that's part of my interest in Bitcoin is, does that
principle hold up? Like, is it strong enough to
fight back against human stupidity over decades and over
centuries to really fundamentally change the way
society works? And I'm very hopeful that it
does. That's a big part of why I'm so
fascinated by Bitcoin. I just like sometimes I, I feel
like a lot of Bitcoiners take it for granted, like that's how
stuff is going to play out. I agree.
I'm sure someone will like, oh, if, if a government's too
oppressive, I'm sure loads of bit corners will move.
And then to your point, a lot of them actually don't end up
moving. It's more like, it's more like a
talking point to feel good about if, if things get bad, then I'm
sure I'll move out. But then in practice, it's like
they're non big corner family and friends.
They don't want to move. So then they also don't want to
move. And then a lot of people just
end up staying where they are. Yeah.
So I'm like, I'm constantly trying to figure out like how
many of the arguments that we use when we say bitcoins going
to succeed, how many of them we do we actually believe in are
actually happening versus how many of them are things people
like to believe because they sound good and give them hope
about the future and all of that kind of stuff.
So I think it's it's a super interesting development.
I think part of it is hope on the other side, I think, you
know, it's lots of people, Bitcoiners will talk about this
like once if we fix the, the, the base layer, right?
Of, of the, of the value or, or what represents value in an
economy. If we fix that and it's
ultimately transparent, then like incentive #1 is the purest
incentive, right? If, if, if, if, if, if you get
the, the reward, right? Does that make sense?
Like, like, yeah, like incentive number one of a whole chain of
things that people do, right? And if you want to do something
for me and your rewards going to be Bitcoin, I can force you to
do the best you can or be the most transparent as you can be,
right? Or else I'm just not going to
pay you for your surface or your or your product.
And I think just like how now people are subconsciously
complying to something they don't understand, hopefully they
will understand Bitcoin better later on, right?
And I think we are both trying to, to add to that, but
complying is easier than trying to figure out how can I go
against this, right? So I, I do also see that in like
human behavior, right? That it's like, OK, well, I'm,
I'm forced to actually do the work that I promised to do for
you. OK, well, I guess I'm going to
do that, you know, so. I, I, I love that aspect.
And that's really interesting about, I think like all the
stuff Jeff Booth says around like a deflationary world, how
you have economists who complain about that, that it doesn't
function. I'm like, on the other hand, I'm
like, you know, pretty damn exciting to see a world in which
everyone's like, like we have to all work a bit harder or like,
like put in our best effort to make quality things and to not
cut corners and everything. The Fiat thinking, as you would
probably call it. I, I really like that aspect of
it too. And seeing like, where does that
take society? If we can really like embed that
kind of incentive system in the world, I think we can accomplish
wonderful things. The question is like, to what,
to what extent can we can we embed it?
Like how far does that grow? Where I become such a large
force that just more and more people start thinking that way.
Like I want to get up every day and I want to build something I
don't make. I want to make my surroundings,
my community and everything better than they are now.
I think, yeah, I'm 100% aligned with this.
I think that if you are happier with what you do to earn rewards
in an economy, right? And you're proud of what you do,
then that will show in your life, right?
Like there's so many people who are stuck in bullshit jobs or,
you know, all all these things or they create, you know,
there's people who who create like, you know, sucky plastic
toys in some sort of factory. Like are you, are you, like,
does that make you happy? Like, no, you know, and, and so
I think eventually if, and of course this is kind of utopia
for some people, but I believe like if, if the incentives are
really aligned and people are more happy with what they
contribute to society, right? Like, or we're going to build
like crazy buildings again, right?
Or, you know, like these statues that they had in Greece, like
overlooking the harbors or whatever.
Like if you are, if you, if you can be proud of contributing to
that, you know, that will rub off on other people.
Because if you are sad and you see another person who is happy
and content with themselves and the world and whatever, you know
that that is inspiring, definitely.
And safe. Yeah, that's an example.
We also should give. Yeah.
And, and if we look at other millennials, like so many
millennials are like kind of hopeless about the future.
And like they, they, you know, they feel like I won't be able
to have my own house and actually afford that.
Climate change is like a big deal.
And it, it's like a very gloomy outlook on the future.
And that's the message I tried to bring to Bitcoin, sort of
like through Bitcoin as well to people.
It's like, it's not necessarily about the money.
It's how you look at the future. And like, you know, I want to
talk because I just, like, kind of painted a potential scenario
in which I'm not as optimistic about how things play out.
But in general, I do try to think of it as, like, how is
this going to change your life and the ability to take
ownership of your life and actually make something of it?
And like, I think good to mention with what you said as
well as, like, a lot of people hear that and think, like, yeah,
but in which world is everyone going to be happy?
But you're not suggesting, you know, it's not a binary thing
where it's all or nothing. It's just a larger percentage of
people will love what they do when the right incentives are in
place. And it's still not going to be,
still not going to be everyone, it might not even be half the
people, but an improvement over where we are today.
But that argument is so empty. It's like you are a part of, you
know, one, 1/2 of that conversation and you are
positive and you have a positive outlook, etcetera.
Yeah, yeah. But not everyone can be happy
eventually. Yeah, OK.
But that is not like like no one is going to solve your
happiness. So it, it, it's, I've become a
become a bit allergic for like those types of things.
It's like, and it's actually one of the things I wanted to ask
you, you know, like I often talked with, with like guests on
on the podcast with Tomer Strollight or Eric Case and how,
you know, Bitcoin turns nihilism into optimism.
I think that is exactly what we are talking about right now.
Like comments like that, they are like, those are nihilistic,
right? Like the we are so wired into
this like yeah, yeah, the 0 sum game, like if I win, you lose,
if someone wins, other people lose, etcetera.
That is what I think is the seed of like comments like that.
It's. Like a mind virus.
Yeah, right. So but like, do you experience
this a lot in your social circle like the the nihilism?
Yeah, you get it. And I, I find it super
interesting to deal with every single time because you can,
there are a lot of interesting ways in which you can disarm it.
Because people immediately like they tried to put Bitcoin in a
certain box or they, they tried to introduce certain arguments
like yes, but I heard on the news that this or that or that
scam happened or thing. And there's a lot of arguments
that you could typically use to kind of like they're very
negative about it. I'm not trying to turn them into
a Bitcoin believer or someone who's super positive about it.
But but to just neutralize that argument and show them that the
facts don't back up what they're thinking or seeing, which for a
lot of people it's, it's like a bit of a shock.
Like, oh, you're not trying to convince me.
You're just telling me that what I currently know about this
thing isn't right. And if you do that a couple
times over, in a lot of cases, people start becoming a bit more
like mindful about what they think about things.
And that's like, I think a big part of the nihilism is people
who just repeat what they hear elsewhere to be able to explain
to others and to be interesting about how they see the world and
what they know about the world. But like kind of like pushing
back against that, but not in a way where you tell them, I know
even better than you that that can work with some people.
So I, I definitely see a bunch of it, but I don't try to fight
those people and like start arguments and, and try to
convince them of something different.
I only try to show them that like what it is that they're
currently so stuck on. Like, you know, you can even ask
them the question. Like, OK, even if you think this
is true, even if you think all of all of Bitcoin is a scam or
whatever, Like do you then think that over a trillion dollars in
value is in this and all those people think it's a scam?
Do you think all these big investors are involved, all
these big companies because they've all just been fooled.
And if that's. True, and you are not.
Yeah, and you are not. And if that's true, what can we
do about that? Yeah.
And then you. You get into very interesting
discussions with people because then they also don't know.
They're like, wait, you're agreeing with me?
Oh damn. Like, like now I don't know what
I'm supposed to say. Like I guess we can just move on
and talk about the weather or something.
I think that is also my main goal is I want to show them
that. I just ask why?
Why do you say this? Yeah, because someone blah,
blah, blah said I said, but did. But did you verify it?
Right? Like did you?
So I'm just asking questions. And I think my main goal is to
get them to a point where they realize that what they think is
their opinion. It is not based on their own
thinking, right? Like it's based on on something
they heard. And then I kind of like turn it
around and say, like, for example, people that know me for
a long time, I said like, OK, well, you know me for a long
time. You I think, you know, I'm a
diligent risk averse person and I'm curious.
And perhaps you could also be thinking like, why is my friend
91% in Bitcoin? You could also ask the curious
question instead of posing this opinion, you know, whatever,
you're just trying to get me in because then it goes up, blah,
blah. And then if I say, I don't
really care, I'm good, you know, that, that, that already.
I think that's a fun game. And then you don't even have to
talk about Bitcoin specifically. I think it's more about kind of
like showing them that how they are thinking is is not, not a
conscious thing, right? And I think to what what we just
talked about, I just want to show like how it improved my
life and my clarity of thinking and my happiness and, and all
these things, right? And that's why I'm spending time
on it. So I'm just trying to set that
example and yeah, kind of like challenged them to reflect on.
What they are thinking? What they are thinking?
Which for a lot of people is very confrontational, actually,
because they like they're, you know, yeah, they're blaming
something else. They're talking about how
something else is messed up. And then you kind of like, you
deflect that in a way where it points back to them and they're
like, they will immediately get defensive or, like, much more
pushy about it. And that's why it's so important
whenever you do this stuff. And I can already tell from the
way you speak and behave that in general you remain calm.
And that just makes such a big difference because a lot of
people when they're at also about a topic, one of them will
start raising their voice or getting more and more upset or
the arguments get more. But that's the signal.
That's the signal that if you're triggered, you're not with
yourself, right? And so, yeah, 100% people,
people are confronted with that. And that is what is hard.
It's not the subject that we're talking about.
It's the fact that someone else can show you that you're not
thinking for yourself. That's not nice.
You know, that's not a nice experience.
And I, I, yeah, I, I totally understand that.
And that's also why I think it takes a few years, you know,
with regards to, you know, what is money and inflation and
finance. And then eventually Bitcoin is
that like it takes a few years because it's not nice to realize
that you are participating in the system that you have no
fucking clue about how it works. Like that is not, it's just not
nice to realize that. And that is OK.
I think everyone in Bitcoin had that exact same experience,
right? But I, I think then eventually
it's about what do you do with it?
You know, and once you understand that the things you
thought were true were not true, then you have a a big choice.
Yeah. How far?
How? Far, do you want to take that?
And that then becomes a really interesting.
Or do you want to conform to what it is and not pay any
attention to it, you know, and keep complaining about what
other people do, blah, blah. Like that is.
Yeah, yeah. I used the word matrix a lot.
But that's the stake of the matrix, right?
Yeah. Like I want to keep eating the
steak. That's fine.
But that's eventually that's not that's not a happy life.
It's not a conscious life. Right.
And this is something I've been noticing a lot, like, like how
can you describe a bit corner? And like, how can you identify
people who aren't bit corners yet, but would actually be
interested in it? And for me, this is a very
common theme is like who actually wants to make something
out of their life? Who wants to take ownership of
their life and like make a better life for themselves
rather than what you're saying? Like the constant complaining or
just blaming other things for issues but never really doing
anything about it. And that for me is increasingly
becoming a thing I'm looking at. It's like it can be in a
different area where you just see someone who's like, OK,
instead of just following the system and doing what I'm
expected to do and gradually paying more for everything in my
life and gradually becoming unhealthier with all of the crap
that gets thrown into your food. Just taking steps yourself to
start improving things. It's a very common theme within
Bitcoiners as well. And it doesn't need to be like
you take full financial ownership of your life and you
change up everything about it so that you're fully self sovereign
and everything. But it's kind of where it starts
for a lot of people. It's just that spark where you
can tell that someone isn't just following all of the news and
accepting everything they're being told there.
Like that's a really big shift. I think it's like a first thing
I tried to identify and people. Is there an area in which they
are already trying to take ownership of their lives, or are
they just following the system the way it's kind of, like,
played out and been designed? Yeah.
Yeah, it's, it's, it's, I love this topic, you know, because I
think, I, I think you can find and research and, and understand
like how Bitcoin works, but figuring out why you should
adopt it, that's way harder, you know, like that personal
journey. And so I also, I love more like
the philosophy and like spiritual angle of adopting
Bitcoin a lot because, well, and I think we are, we are talking
about it, right? Like that personal challenge, I
think is the main thing that we probably should also talk about
and show and be empathetic about, right?
And show that we had this same journey.
It's not looking down on people. It's just showing like, OK, if
you take that little scary leap, it's going to free your mind.
And when it's free your minds, you know, your life gets better.
Like it's yeah, it's. It is that simple, but it's not.
Easy. It's simple in hindsight, like
once you can look back at sort of with clarity and understand
the path that you've walked, then it makes sense.
But when you look forward, it's like like people are throwing
complicated technical terms at me.
And you know, I see a lot of people lose their money doing
all kinds of crypto stuff. And people don't know the
difference between Bitcoin and crypto.
So they don't understand, like you are way further on that path
and you're looking back and you're seeing it very different
Rd. than they are. And as a big corner, it's so
critical to be that far in the road and never forget what it
was like standing earlier in that journey.
And all of Bitcoiners, because they've heard the same stories
and arguments and read all these books and watched all these
videos, they are so far along that they lose touch with having
that empathy for someone so early in their journey.
And that's something I try to push myself every single day as
part of my job to not lose track of because it's so critical to
be able to have a conversation with the average person and help
them through the like, get started on their journey or
learn more about it. Yeah, I, I, I love that you say
that because that is actually, you know, the example of the of
the teacher guy who was in my DM.
Like, I feel like I want to tell him like, just don't do it.
But I'm not, you know, don't go into the shit coins, don't do
the trading and blah, blah, blah, because I know how it's
going to end up, right. And it's funny that it was a
good feeling that I was proven right that he came back to me.
And I love that he came back to me actually, because that that
that is actually really nice feedback.
And that's a big signal, right? He's like, OK, you were right.
But I think like this in general, you cannot tell this to
people and they will be like, well, OK, Brahm or some says it.
So then I'm not gonna I'm not gonna do it.
Like they're gonna be like, yeah, F you.
I'm gonna do this anyway. Like it it it is interesting
that it just really works like that.
But I find it hard sometimes, especially with people that I
know and like or love to be like, yeah, you know, yeah,
sorry, but you have to figure it out.
So, you know, I'm open to questions, but I know I cannot,
I, I cannot change your mind. So yeah, just if you're curious
enough, try to figure it out. Let me know if you have
questions. And then I'm happy to spend
hours to answer the questions. Right.
But just that first part is, yeah, I mean, like that.
Yeah. It's just, it's just part of it.
So we talked a bit about, you know, like also, you know,
moving from 1 system to another. I kind of see Bitcoin not as
investing with risk, but I see it as saving in, right.
So you have a job or a venture, you earn a reward for, for your
output. You can save that in Fiat money
or you can save that in Bitcoin. I, I, I see the Fiat money as
risky and I'm saving in into Bitcoin.
How has this changed for you? Like how, how did you first few
risk or did you even perceive risk?
Like what is your approach to risk with with regards to to
financial things? Well, when I first got into
Bitcoin, I was AI was just kind of like starting my studies and
at the like as a student, you don't really have a lot of
money. And you also think from like, I
was very much centered on like I have certain skills, I'm going
to be expanding those skills a lot over the next while.
And I don't have much money anyway.
So even if I lose the money that I have at this point, then I'll
like, I'm privileged enough, fortunately that that's not
going to be a problem for me. And I'll be able to build that
up and just like go be a waiter or wash dishes or whatever it is
I need to do to, to make enough money.
Which Fast forward to now, if I was in a position, again, I
don't know if that would be enough to pay for a life living
in the country that I live in because it's just freaking
expensive now. But back then, like I was
fortunate enough to not have to worry as much about risk.
But at the same time, I was looking at like the way I've
kind of always looked at the financial system.
And a Bitcoin is like, if I put €10,000 or dollars or whatever
currency in the bank, like how much faith do I have that in 10
years from now, it's going to be there and it's still going to
have as much purchasing power. Versus if I put it into Bitcoin,
how much faith do I have that I will still own that amount of
Bitcoin in that period of time and that it will be worth the
same or less or more than it is now.
And when you weigh those two things against each other and
you know, well, the Fiat currency in the bank will
definitely devalue. There is no scenario I can
imagine in which it will become worth more than it is now.
So knowing that it like you're, you can already kind of like
subtract a big part of that value and it's like that money
is gone anyway. So if if for example, you have
€10,000 and you know that in 10 years from now, like it will
lose 3000 of its value or whatever, then you can already
say well, like semi risk free, kind of like a stupid example,
but you could just put that money into Bitcoin already
because you lost it anyway. If your if your alternative plan
is to put it in the back and then a lot of people will say,
yeah, but you shouldn't think that way because you know, you
can invest it in stocks and assets and do all kinds of
things with it. But the average person is not a
like a an investor. They're not ACFO in their
personal life. So I think your metaphor of like
you're just saving in this is much more sensible than trying
to turn people into investors, which a lot of people they don't
really want to be. They get forced into being more
of an investor. And I think it's really
interesting in like Peter McCormack did a couple of
documentaries in countries like Lebanon and Argentina.
And when you hear from the people there, they're like,
everyone here is forced to be a financial expert, like a CFO
over their own lives. Because if you're not like,
like, you just can't live. You have to spend tons of time
understanding like what are the market rates between your local
currency and a dollar, for example.
And like, how can I protect my purchasing power?
So people get forced into that direction even if they don't
want to be. And that I think is like, we're
still like in first world countries, we're less pressured
that way. But when I look at the US, for
example, people that are much more financially literate
because they kind of have to be like it's, it's hard for a lot
of people there. A lot of people live paycheck to
paycheck, which is also the case in Europe.
But I think potentially, I don't know the numbers, but it might
be a bit less. But in the US, lots of people
live paycheck to paycheck. So they have to be super
conscious about like where all the money is going and how it is
that they're saving it. So I, I, I like, I think about
this a lot. Like for me personally, I'm, you
know, I'm fortunate enough to not think of risk as like this
is like existential. If I don't protect my money and
I lose this money, then I'm going to be in big trouble.
I won't be able to afford my bills and I'm done for.
But for a lot of people, that's the kind of thinking that they
need to have. So for them, investing in
something that the entire world tells them is risky, like
Bitcoin, it's just too big of a leap.
If they're in that kind of position.
If you're not in that kind of position and you have some
savings, then you can make the, you know, the relatively easy
thought experiment of if I just keep it in the bank, then I know
it's definitely going to lose its money.
And that's the way I view Bitcoin, similar to you, is it
just doesn't seem like a great plan to keep it there.
So what else can I do then? And it doesn't have to be OK,
that means I'll put everything in Bitcoin.
But it's just that that one realization that keeping it in
the bank and doing nothing with it, that is definitely a bad
plan. That's where I tend to start.
Well, and, and people then think I need to invest.
No, the problem is you cannot save anymore.
So you first save and then invest what, what you can
actually lose, right? And I had Peter Dunworth on the
on the podcast, I think second episode, and he said, you know,
my full time job is to figure out what people should be doing
with their money, right? As a, as a financial advisor,
he's like, that's my job. I spend the entire day each day
on this, right? And the fact that people are
forced to emulate that job besides their normal job when
they get home, like that is the actual problem.
Like you have a job, but you don't know you have it.
You know, when you come home from taking risk by having a
certain type of job or a certain type of venture, like that is
risk because you're spending your, your time and energy on,
you know, working for a certain company that someone else
controls or you try your own company in a certain market,
right? And so you were taking risk
anyway. But then when you get home,
you're forced to take more risk, right?
And I think that is where that that pressure to invest comes
from. People think they have to
invest, but they don't understand that they are they,
they think that's because they cannot save in the currency
that, that they're paid in, right.
But I, I heard you talk before about like scams and stuff.
So how do you, you know, in your opinion, like how does that
pressure to invest and the threat of scams like impact our,
I would say generation, you know, our outlook on financial
stability and the future does is, is that where the nihilism
comes from, you think? I think like those people prey
on the nihilism because you see a lot of people that like this
is part of why crypto in general is so big because people feel
like well I missed out on Bitcoin so now I need to find a
new way to 100 X my money. And even if historically like
Bitcoin would return them like 6070% per year or something,
that's not enough because they want to turn their 1000 or 5000
or 20,000 or whatever it is into a 100X or it's for them, it's
like just not worth playing around with.
And they don't have, in some ways, they don't have the
patience to build something up over the long run or they don't
have the self-confidence or belief that they're able to get
to a point where they can live a more comfortable life and not
have to work stress and worry about the money as much.
So then that feeds into all of these people that promised them
the next big thing that will make them a ton of money.
And people think like, well, I'll never be able to afford a
house anyway. I'll never be able to do this or
that or that. So I might as well just take the
risk with the little money that I have in the hopes that it's
going to make me a whole lot. And that is like the true shame.
Like, I think like the true pity that I see with, with our
generation is that you have a lot of people who kind of lose
hope in the long run and start taking stupid risks and lose
their money that way. And then just like a lump
Bitcoin in with all of crypto and blame all of that stuff.
So that's yeah, it's, it's really sad to see, I think, and
I really hope that more and more of those people will start
realizing like this is to your point earlier, like go ahead and
trade and you'll see that it's just not really going to work
hard for the like 90% plus of the people.
Yeah, it would be nicer if we can educate people before they
pay their fee to the scammers. Very difficult.
Yeah, it is. Yeah, it really.
Is the high time preference that safety no Moose talks about,
right? Like discounting the future even
more, right? The future is uncertain anyway,
but you can you know, your mind can help you make it even more
uncertain. And therefore, you know, you're
you're gonna gamble now because yeah, if you don't have any
hope, then, you know, why wouldn't you?
Why wouldn't you gamble? You know, and therefore I think
like for me, like that is a very big topic.
Why I think this is a spiritual battle.
I'm crazy that your spirit is crushed.
Your spirit towards the future is crushed.
And especially as a millennial, if you wanna, you know, build a
family or some people decide not not to build a family because of
that, you know, wow. Because they can't afford it or
because they they think like I already live a bad life, then my
kids can. My kids going to be off even
worse, Yeah. But then that realization, yeah,
I I shared this before too. I sometimes say that because
for, you know, for people that that listen to to most episodes.
But I had a conversation with the guy CTO of a company think a
bit older. I think he's super intelligent.
He understood everything about the bad money.
He stood, understood everything about Bitcoin.
He didn't have any Bitcoin. He said like, yeah, I just don't
think, you know, I don't, I don't trust that the incentives
will be aligned. I still think people are going
to misuse it, etcetera, blah, blah.
So eventually, and so this was a real life conversation.
We were sitting at the table and I asked him like, well, don't
you have kids? And he's like, no, no, but
that's also the reason. And then I thought like, wow,
you know, this was the first experience for me actually
having that conversation with someone in real life, not
reading about it or seeing some TikTok or whatever.
I'd like an actual conversation with someone who I regard as an
intelligent, curious person. And that was really like, what
he decided. And that was very saddening to
experience, I'd say, like, in that conversation.
And then I also asked him like, OK, but with all due respect,
like, so you just gave up. He's like, yeah, I'm like, what?
That's. Crazy.
It's so far away from how I feel, you know, but it's also
real, you know, it's his, it's his experience, you know, his,
his, oh, his map of the world, right.
And and how he fused it and I don't know man.
Like, I don't know. I find that so saddening you.
Know. Even when you're already there,
when you see the problem, you see a possible solution and you
still don't have enough. Yeah, I think it is hope, right?
I think we talked about challenges, you know, that
Bitcoin could face and with people that are going to be in
charge of blah blah. But we cannot predict the future
100%. So you always have to have a
little hope that, you know, eventually we will figure it
out. And if not, then not, you know,
like you cannot change that anyway, right?
So you better try. This is our best shot man.
This is what I think. I think so, yeah.
But also the fact is something I would think about this week,
like the fact that we are living in this moment in time is
absolutely wild. That is really hard to realize,
right? The the the falling of a certain
empire, the monetization of an asset that that no one has ever
experienced before such such a huge discovery, right?
And and changes also in the world that like everything we
look at to to create like a benchmark for our perspective
right now is so far away in the future or in the past that it
doesn't feel real. I would say, right, like it
doesn't feel real that that we could also live in this moment
in time. But then like last week, someone
told me like there will there were there were people living in
the Great Depression, there were people living during the the
first and Second World War, like just like us, that the same same
type of people with the same dreams and hopes and feelings
and all and all these things, right.
And that's just fascinating to think about that, that.
Yeah. In some way.
Yeah. Well, not in some way, but we
are here at this time when that stuff is happening, right?
This is not the 70s and not the early 80s or the 60s like it's
it's a. Distinct kind of time period.
Exactly. It's very, very different,
right? And, and yeah, I don't know, I
feel optimistic about that actually.
Like it's I, I think if you can really see the problems that are
there and you feel that that you can contribute to the solution
in some way, that is a really good feeling.
I think it's some. Purpose.
And I, and I hope in general like to, to some of my points
earlier, like a lot of Bitcoiners take this for granted
and they feel like they're spectators now.
But you're not a spectator, you're a participant, right?
Like you can make stuff happen too.
And a lot of people don't know like where to start or how to do
that. Doesn't matter, I'd say.
What you. Do, but like, just figure it
out. Yeah.
Even if it's like helping people, just translate whatever
book or book or content or website or app or thing like
just start there, get involved with others.
Yeah, I, I don't like the it's inevitable meme.
I, I don't, I, I, I think no, I think we are underestimating the
power that we have as bitcoiners already.
You see it, the old presidential election thing, like these
politicians do not care about crypto and Bitcoin, but they're
in some way they are incentivized to say like I'm
pro, I'm pro this and that. They, they have no clue.
They don't know they couldn't. Do you think Trump can use a
browser? I have no idea.
I never think about it. Now, But I mean like, you know,
like, yeah, we we are, we are so far ahead of all these people
that are in charge. And I think that is what we
should actually be aware of, like the now the, the woman I
mentioned, Maya from Suriname, she's going to run in the
presidential election in May next year.
And I told her you, you should understand that there's like 50
million people on the Internet that could amplify your message.
And that is why you're going to win.
They, they, they don't have to be from Suriname.
You know, like Bitcoiners online are a huge, huge, huge group,
super powerful in terms of narrative messaging and, and,
and all these things right. And so I think if more people
realize that we can do crazy, crazy stuff because we can
support the people that we align with all over the world,
wherever they are, you know, and I think that is a very I I love
that as that's my main hopeful kind of like thought also
currently, like we are there already.
We are there. You can travel to any part in
the world, put on Twitter. Are there Bitcoiners?
Can we hang out? Yeah, like anywhere.
We are there already, right. And yeah, well, anyway, like
that's, that's fascinating. I love that we are there.
I think you have like 10 minutes.
OK, I'm thinking about what what question I wanted to ask you,
but I, I think I want to ask you like what is the main thing
people need to unlearn before they can understand Bitcoin?
I think the, it's a really good question because I like, I'm,
I'm trying to think of like, what did I unlearn?
But that's going to be different for everyone.
I think a lot of people who currently are in bit corners,
what they'll need to unlearn is like, it really just starts in a
way with information where they feel like, like if they get
told, like if you vote for this other party, if you vote for
this other politician, they're going to make life better.
They're going to make the system better.
And I think the unlearning that people need to do is assuming
that someone else is going to make their life better and they
just vote for that. And that person makes the change
happen. Like sort of like if you'd point
me to the critical thing, like if you can make people unlearn
one thing and that will get the most Bitcoin adoption, that's
the thing I'd point at like just making more people realize that
nobody is going to like materially in the long run, make
your life way better, better than you can do it yourself.
So if people were to unlearn that part, then they'll
eventually kind of like, I think a lot of them will eventually
end up a Bitcoin because they'll realize, OK, I need to do it
myself. And this is a really powerful
tool to be able to do that. Yeah, couldn't agree more.
It's the and it sounds. So how do you say it?
Like it's arrogant sometimes or corny.
Like, yeah, you have to start thinking for yourself.
Like, dude, what? What do you mean?
But like, yeah, like really, you know, like, think, think about
that. And and that is that taking that
responsibility. Like no one is coming to save
you in a good way. Like it's in a, It's in a good
way like that. Yes, that person that you're
voting for does not have the same interest in your specific
individual life that you have, right?
So how can that other person make your life better?
You know? And by the way, in general, I
wanted to say this before, but this is AI think this is a way
bigger thing in Western countries as opposed to, I don't
know, third world ish countries. Like their people already have
that entire mentality. Very sad because they are forced
by you know, you know how their societies are, you know,
maintained and also abused by our societies right still.
But but they have a way more clear perspective to life.
Literally no one is coming to save you.
You are instantly humbled and we still, and, and it's also how we
grew up here is, yeah, other people take care of me and my
surroundings and all these things.
But no, like you have to do that.
And I think also then when you think like that, you can also
start contributing in whatever way you would contribute to
whatever instead of being more of like a consumer.
Yeah, and it's not binary like it's, it's not that people
should just give up on politics altogether.
And politicians can never make your life better in any way.
I think anyway, it's more that you can't outsource the thing
entirely. You will have to do things
yourself. And I'd say like, maybe that's
like, call it like 80% and a 20% does whatever society does.
I don't know whether that's a proper weighting, but that's
kind of the idea. Like my message isn't like,
forget about all that stuff and just do everything yourself.
But it is. You're going to have to play a
bigger role in taking ownership of your own life than you
currently are. If if you're like, you know, if
you're someone who's not into Bitcoin yet, who looks at the
future in a very doomy and gloomy way, then start there, I
think. Yeah, so how has Bitcoin changed
your world view or views? Well, to be honest, like if I
look back at my world view before Bitcoin, it's like I was
relatively young. I've, I've been interested for
the past decade or so. So I feel like what was my world
through? You know, it's just like inform
based on the school or schools that I went to and like the
stuff I heard on the news and the things that you read and the
people you talk to, but it's much more narrow.
So for me, if anything, Bitcoin has just helped me understand
that the world is incredibly like simultaneously incredibly
simplistic, just driven by incentives and all of the
outcomes that you see just kind of like come from that.
And at the same time, so many things are so nuanced.
Like it's, it's not so black and white of this specific thing
'cause that thing entirely or these people all think this way.
Just almost everything out there, both in Bitcoin itself
and outside of it are just on some kind of spectrum of
extremities. And the extremities are often
like where the loudest people are.
So in general, it's just like opened my view to knowing that I
don't know that much about the world as I as I think I do, and
that typically most things that you dive into just have far more
complexities and reasons behind it and are perceived differently
by different people. So for me, if anything, it's
just been very humbling and interesting because it's
introduced me to so many things I never thought I'd learn about
deep to your point earlier, like going anywhere in the world and
just talking to other Bitcoiners and hearing how they live their
life, how the people around them very often face very similar
problems or have similar, similar questions.
But just gradually as I get older, learning more and more
about the how the world actually works.
I think, I mean, you assume anyway, maybe I still don't get
it. But first is how it's presented
as working, which is just super fascinating to me.
Yeah, I agree. I, I love to saying, you know,
once you know that you don't know everything, you know, then
you are humbled quickly and, and, and because of that, at
least for me and I think also for you like it, it triggers
that, you know, being intellectually curious part and
therefore you start seeing that the world works different.
You don't have to understand how exactly, but the fact that you
understand that it works different than what is being fed
to you through the TV, for example, that is already mind
opening, I would say, right. That draws you in even more
like, OK, well, but do the people think that actually look
at the TV and only think about that, you know, and then and
then you start seeing those things.
So yeah, I think I, I think just that curious curiosity comes
back a lot in my conversations like that.
That is just it. And that is, I think also part
of taking that responsibility and thinking for yourself and
not just, yeah, assuming that what someone else says, you
know, that looks like a benefit for you is also actually a
benefit for you. Like you still have to think for
yourself. You know, there's, there's
reasons people say things. So yeah.
Yeah. Interesting.
It's fascinating. I use the word fascinating also
a lot because it's like a never ending thing, right?
It's just, it just keeps going and you learn about all these
different subjects. And yeah, I like all these
things. So yeah, that's a question
because I think you have to go. But I asked everyone the same
question. And that is what is a core
belief you will never let go. I think the fact that human
beings are incredibly resourceful and will continue to
kind of like surprise people with where we can take this.
I, that's for me, like one of the things that I remain very
hopeful about where we can take this space.
Like I would never bet against core developers coming up with
ways to make Bitcoin scale or, or coming up with ways to make
it more private or for the Bitcoin community in general to
enact like really beautiful and wonderful things in the world.
So that's, that's something that I that I hold on to and that I
hope we can, you know, make make a huge impact on the world with,
even if Bitcoin for some reason doesn't scale to billions of
people, as long as, you know, we look back at our lives and think
like, you know, to our point earlier, we gave it a shield and
we made the most out of this. I think that's, yeah, that's a
belief that I hold on to dearly. Love that man.
So great ending. Thanks so much for your time.
And Yemen. I think we'll do this again and
we should meet sometimes. We're not.
We're not that far apart. Yeah.
I mean, we have in Madeira I think, but beyond that not too
much. But yeah, we could probably talk
for hours. Thanks for having me of.
Course man my pleasure. I hope you enjoyed this episode.
If you did, it would be amazing if you could rate, review and
subscribe on the podcast platform of your choice.
It will help us educate more millennials on the importance of
Bitcoin. You can follow and connect with
me on Twitter. I'm Bram K that's at BR AM K,
and if you are or know someone who has an interesting
perspective on Bitcoin that's worth sharing, hit me up.
I read and reply to every single message.
I appreciate your support and hope you'll be here for the next
episode. Thanks for listening.
Bye.