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Coming up in this episode of 
Bitcoin for Millennials, what is

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the main thing people need to 
unlearn before they can 

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understand Bitcoin I. 
Think the it's a really good 

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question because I like I'm, I'm
trying to think of like, what 

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did I unlearn? 
But that's going to be different

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for everyone. 
I think a lot of people who 

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currently are in bit corners, 
what they'll need to unlearn is 

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like, it really just starts in a
way with information where they 

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feel like, like if they get 
told, like if you vote for this 

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other party, if you vote for 
this other politician, they're 

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going to make life better. 
They're going to make the system

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better. 
And I think the unlearning that 

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people need to do is assuming 
that someone else is going to 

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make their life better and they 
just vote for that and that 

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person makes the change happen. 
Like sort of like if you point 

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me to the critical thing, like 
if you can make people unlearn 

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one thing and that will get the 
most Bitcoin adoption, that's 

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the thing I'd point at like just
making more people realize that 

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nobody is going to like 
materially in the long run, make

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your life way better, better 
than you can do it yourself. 

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So if people were to unlearn 
that part, then they'll 

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eventually kind of like, I think
a lot of them will eventually 

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end up a Bitcoin because they'll
realize, OK, I need to do it 

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myself. 
And this is a really powerful 

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tool to be able to do that. 
All right, hey there. 

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This is from Constant and you're
listening to Bitcoin for 

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millennials. 
In this episode, I'm joined by 

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some vouchers. 
He's a renowned Bitcoin 

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researcher and analyst from the 
Netherlands, and he currently 

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leads the marketing and content 
efforts at River, a prominent US

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based Bitcoin brokerage. 
With a passion for Bitcoin 

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education. 
Sam has contributed extensively 

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to the field, including 
producing Rivers renowned 

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Lightning reports. 
Welcome, Sam. 

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Thanks Blaam. 
It's refreshing to hear a 

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podcaster who can pronounce my 
last name. 

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Yeah, it's actually funny. 
You know, like I, I think I am a

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bit lucky with my name, but a 
lot of Dutch people, English, if

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I their names and then it it 
sounds kind of weird, right? 

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So I just say Vauthers, what do?
English people say, I guess, do 

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people, do people call you like 
Bram or how do they do it? 

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Yeah, they say Bram. 
So that's that's OK. 

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And then I say, yeah, Canstein 
like Goldstein. 

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Yeah, I. 
Like that but you have in your 

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Twitter bio, I think Walters 
right? 

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Like pronounces, but. 
Like Walters to help them 

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pronounce it. 
That's great. 

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Honestly, I don't care that 
much. 

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It's just becoming a thing at 
this point where people look at 

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that and they all think it's 
like Wooters or something and I 

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just want to help them out 
because they feel bad and. 

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Yeah, I like Walters. 
That's great. 

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That's, that's a good one. 
Yeah, man. 

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Well, thanks for coming on. 
I I think it's nice to talk to a

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fellow fellow Dutchie. 
We're doing it in English, but I

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think, I think we'll manage. 
And yeah, I, I wanted to start 

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with, you know, you're, you're a
millennial too. 

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And I usually ask, you know, 
like, because the podcast is 

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focused on millennials and I 
kind of started when I realized 

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that lots of millennials aren't 
really thinking about Bitcoin or

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money or inflation, you know, 
And so this is like one of the 

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goals I have. 
And I usually ask other 

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millennials, like, how do you 
experience talking about Bitcoin

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with our generational peers? 
Like what is? 

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What is your experience? 
There's, I think there's a lot 

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of variety there. 
There are some people who like, 

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obviously like us. 
There are some people who get it

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or who are at least concerned 
about kind of their future. 

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And then there are people who 
absolutely don't want to hear 

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it. 
Kind of to your point, I think a

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lot of people just concern 
themselves with other stuff, 

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with partying, with like just 
being super focused on trying to

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buy a house. 
I think happens a lot of our 

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generation too. 
And like they're so focused on 

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that that they're not really 
thinking about sort of like the 

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bigger game of money that's 
being played around that. 

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So yeah, I think like for a lot 
of people, they don't really 

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want to think about it. 
They're busy with their jobs, 

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with their careers, with their 
relationships, with working out,

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with all kinds of things. 
And for them, it's like it's 

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just not top of mind. 
Like they've they've seen a lot 

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of their friends as well get 
into like the wider crypto space

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and start gambling and messing 
around, but they're just not as 

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interested. 
Like they've heard about it 

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before. 
They feel like it's kind of past

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at this point. 
And now they're just looking, 

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you know, to keep living their 
life and do what it is that 

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you're doing. 
So it's it's tricky, like you 

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get a lot of different 
reactions, I think. 

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What about you? 
What's your experience been? 

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Well, what I think is 
interesting, I, I see the same, 

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but I find it just so 
fascinating that once I came to 

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the realization that like that 
the quality of the money 

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influences all the choices in 
your life, you know, even even 

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subconsciously, that makes it 
like the most important subject 

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that we should talk about and 
fix at the same time, right? 

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And so people are building their
careers or focusing on it, 

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right? 
Or they want to try to start a 

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family or buy a house, etcetera.
Those are very big things, 

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right? 
Those are main activities in 

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everyone's life basically. 
And also those activities are 

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also influenced by the quality 
of the money. 

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And so I think it's actually 
very surprising that people 

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don't think about it because 
they are so connected. 

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But on the other side, they have
no clue. 

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I I said this many times on the 
podcast, too, like, you know, we

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grew up in this country. 
We got some coins or some bills.

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We went to the bakery, we got a 
bread. 

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And, you know, the money works. 
Like there's there's nothing 

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that you have to doubt or think 
about or ask about, right. 

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And so I think it is, yeah, just
kind of like how we grew up. 

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We never had to challenge it or 
think about it. 

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And, and I think that permeates 
to, you know, the adult life 

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right now. 
But I cannot imagine that, you 

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know, like yesterday I went, I 
went to the supermarket just to 

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get like some dinner and 
something for breakfast. 

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And it was €30 or €33 or 
something. 

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And other people have to see 
that too and think like that is 

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not normal. 
Like it, it wasn't like that. 

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It wasn't like that when we grew
up. 

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And so it, it is within our 
lifetime already way different 

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now compared to our youth. 
So that is actually what 

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surprises me in the fact that 
not a lot of people actually 

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focus on this. 
And I, I have the same 

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experience as you. 
So that is kind of it. 

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And, and even, and, and this was
one of my motivations to start a

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podcast. 
Like I had a week where I talked

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to several friends, some that 
are really well off and they 

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have no Bitcoin. 
Well, one has one Bitcoin now 

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because I, I pushed him. 
But yeah, if I ask a question 

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like, hey, if you call your bank
and you want to get, you know, 

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this, this is a guy who has 
money, but like, if you want to 

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get 100K cash out, what do you 
think happens? 

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You know, and he was like, yeah,
I don't know, maybe I have to 

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wait two days or something and 
then, yeah, I don't know, I get 

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it. 
Maybe they ask what I'm going to

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use it for or something. 
But you know, it's fine. 

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Like that, that type of 
reaction, you know, and so he 

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sees that waiting maybe is a 
little nuisance, but not like a 

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big problem. 
Whereas, you know, I was on the 

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other side of this conversation 
and this was during a 2 hour car

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ride actually, where I was like,
but you worked really hard, you 

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saw the company and now if you 
want to get access to the reward

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you got, there's some random 
entity between you and that 

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reward, you know, and, and the 
woman or the man you talk to on 

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the on the phone, they just have
a job, they have their 

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instructions. 
They don't really care about 

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you. 
And they're going to be like, 

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well, what are you going to use 
it for, Sir? 

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You know, like, I see that as a 
problem, you know, like you 

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don't really own what you think 
you own, but he just didn't see 

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that. 
Hey there, I want to ask you for

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00:08:01,720 --> 00:08:04,400
a quick favor. 
I noticed something interesting.

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75% of my viewers aren't 
subscribed yet. 

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Subscribing helps me grow this 
channel, ensuring more great 

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00:08:10,280 --> 00:08:13,200
content each week. 
So if you're enjoying our 

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00:08:13,200 --> 00:08:15,840
conversations on Bitcoin for 
millennials, please consider 

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hitting the subscribe button on 
YouTube or the follow button on 

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I'm super grateful for everyone 

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who already joined and shared 
their thoughts. 

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Your feedback really keeps me 
going, and I want to ask you to 

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continue doing that. 
I tried to respond to all the 

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comments and also the emails 
that I get and DMS on Twitter, 

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etcetera. 
So don't stop doing that. 

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I'll keep going. 
Now let's get back to the 

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conversation. 
A lot of people have to 

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experience that first. 
I think like there's a, there's 

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a lot of resistance, I think 
especially over here because 

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we're, we're pretty well off. 
Like that just causes a lot of 

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people to be like, yeah, it's 
annoying, but it's not that 

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annoying that I'm not able to 
live my life and enjoy the 

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things that I want to do. 
And I think beyond that, there's

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also a lot of people that like 
this kind of this, this problem 

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of money gets pushed onto their 
lives. 

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Like you suddenly have to start 
caring about money, but a lot of

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people don't want to care about 
it to the extent of like, we 

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have to fix this big system. 
That's not their life mission. 

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They want to accomplish other 
things or have other goals or 

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interests. 
And even though they don't 

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really want to, they suddenly 
get dragged into this kind of, 

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like, global monetary conflict 
that's just, like, way beyond 

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the scope of things that they 
care about, even if society 

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forces you to care about it. 
And it's like increasingly 

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forcing people into a position 
where you cannot leave your 

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money idle in the bank because 
it's just losing value over 

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00:09:39,520 --> 00:09:41,480
time. 
And that's a very painful 

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reality that gets pushed onto 
people that they like. 

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They're just not happy with it. 
And they would rather stick 

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their head in the sand to not 
have to deal with it. 

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And, you know, then face reality
and be like, OK, maybe I need to

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00:09:54,440 --> 00:09:58,040
start becoming more financially 
literate, start making smarter 

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00:09:58,040 --> 00:10:01,080
decisions with my money. 
Because if I don't, then it's 

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going to start losing its value 
over time. 

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It's a very difficult reality to
accept, and a lot of people will

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00:10:06,400 --> 00:10:09,560
accept it a lot later than they 
might have wished they had in 

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00:10:09,560 --> 00:10:12,240
hindsight. 
But it is the world that we're 

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moving towards. 
Even if you're privileged enough

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00:10:14,120 --> 00:10:17,640
to live in a wealthier country. 
Yeah, yeah, 100%. 

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00:10:17,640 --> 00:10:22,200
But I think that's also what 
kind of like pushes me to talk 

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00:10:22,200 --> 00:10:25,720
about this more. 
Like IA 100% agree with the 

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00:10:25,720 --> 00:10:28,400
concept of you have to 
experience the problem before 

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you can see a solution. 
But if this is going to be the 

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problem that you and I kind of 
see coming and envision, right, 

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like I want to help people think
about this before they actually 

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have that problem. 
Because at that moment when 

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they're like, oh shit, I have to
get my money out of the bank, 

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you know, Ding Dong, the money 
is not there, you know? 

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00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:53,600
So or, or you'll just be super 
busy because everyone suddenly 

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00:10:53,600 --> 00:10:57,120
wants to help at the same time. 
Yeah, I I mean, I totally get 

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00:10:57,120 --> 00:10:58,840
this. 
I agree, but it's just. 

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00:10:58,880 --> 00:11:03,720
Hard, it's, it's hard, but it, 
it's actually a few episodes 

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00:11:03,720 --> 00:11:08,480
back I, I talked with Maya Barbu
who's from Suriname and she kind

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00:11:08,480 --> 00:11:10,960
of opened my eyes to the fact 
that, you know, I always thought

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00:11:10,960 --> 00:11:13,680
that, you know, people who 
experienced this problem 

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00:11:13,680 --> 00:11:18,440
already, they are probably 
studying Bitcoin and adopting it

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00:11:18,440 --> 00:11:21,520
and trying to get out of their 
system, you know, of the money 

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00:11:21,520 --> 00:11:23,800
that they're, that they're 
forced to use and, and well, you

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00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:25,760
kind of see that in Nigeria, for
example. 

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00:11:26,320 --> 00:11:30,400
But then Maya told me, you know,
the people here make on average 

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00:11:30,400 --> 00:11:34,400
like $200.00 a month or or 300 
ish, something like that. 

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00:11:34,800 --> 00:11:39,200
And they're all just struggling 
and, and hustling to survive. 

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00:11:39,280 --> 00:11:42,880
They don't have time to actually
think about it and study. 

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00:11:42,880 --> 00:11:47,200
And that kind of humbled me 
more, I would say, because I 

224
00:11:47,200 --> 00:11:50,360
always thought, you know, I 
figured out Bitcoin without 

225
00:11:50,360 --> 00:11:53,480
having the actual problem. 
I may see the problem. 

226
00:11:53,480 --> 00:11:56,280
I don't have the problem and I'm
still acting on it, right? 

227
00:11:56,520 --> 00:11:59,840
But that is super privileged, 
super, super privileged, right? 

228
00:12:00,200 --> 00:12:03,920
And I think that's a great, 
that's a great realization. 

229
00:12:03,920 --> 00:12:08,640
And it also shows that and and 
that's I think also why we are 

230
00:12:08,640 --> 00:12:11,040
both advocating for this. 
Like the people who are already 

231
00:12:11,040 --> 00:12:15,240
experiencing the problem, they 
have no time to study this, 

232
00:12:15,560 --> 00:12:17,440
right. 
And so I yeah, that's kind of. 

233
00:12:17,920 --> 00:12:21,280
What I feel very often, even if 
they have time to study it, it 

234
00:12:21,280 --> 00:12:25,800
is too complicated for the 
average person to understand why

235
00:12:25,800 --> 00:12:27,880
exactly the financial system is 
so messed up. 

236
00:12:28,560 --> 00:12:32,520
And even if you understand every
little detail about it, that 

237
00:12:32,520 --> 00:12:35,200
still doesn't give you any 
influence to, to change it. 

238
00:12:35,400 --> 00:12:37,720
And, and I think like part of 
the reason why we started 

239
00:12:37,720 --> 00:12:41,400
talking was a couple of weeks 
ago, I think it's been now there

240
00:12:41,400 --> 00:12:44,240
was this video that went viral 
of like Biden's economic 

241
00:12:44,240 --> 00:12:46,680
advisor. 
I was like struggling to explain

242
00:12:46,680 --> 00:12:49,400
how the financial system works. 
And you know, all the Bitcoiners

243
00:12:49,400 --> 00:12:52,440
laugh at that and go like, oh, 
that's crazy that he can't 

244
00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:54,640
explain it. 
But to be honest, for me, I'm 

245
00:12:54,640 --> 00:12:58,000
looking at that and thinking 
like, like, it doesn't even 

246
00:12:58,000 --> 00:13:00,080
matter that much whether he 
would understand all of the 

247
00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:03,440
details or not. 
The core principle here is that 

248
00:13:03,440 --> 00:13:05,800
all of them are OK with how it 
works. 

249
00:13:06,200 --> 00:13:09,760
So like who exactly is printing 
the money, whether that's the 

250
00:13:09,760 --> 00:13:12,360
central bank or whether it's the
government or who made the exact

251
00:13:12,360 --> 00:13:15,720
decision? 
For me, it's like like, sure, in

252
00:13:15,760 --> 00:13:20,760
in practice it matters, but like
even if everyone knew exactly 

253
00:13:20,760 --> 00:13:22,640
who was doing that, I don't 
think anything would change 

254
00:13:22,640 --> 00:13:24,440
about it. 
Nobody has an interest in 

255
00:13:24,440 --> 00:13:26,840
changing that big system from 
the inside. 

256
00:13:27,400 --> 00:13:30,480
So that's essentially why we 
Bitcoin, because we think it's 

257
00:13:30,480 --> 00:13:31,760
just not going to happen over 
there. 

258
00:13:31,960 --> 00:13:34,800
So let's make it happen 
ourselves in a different kind of

259
00:13:34,800 --> 00:13:37,880
way. 
So people get kind of stuck up 

260
00:13:37,960 --> 00:13:41,880
on that, like, oh, if these guys
can't even explain it, then, you

261
00:13:41,880 --> 00:13:43,320
know, like, we've got a real 
problem. 

262
00:13:44,160 --> 00:13:46,920
But even if that guy would be 
able to perfectly explain it, 

263
00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:49,960
the vast majority of the global 
population can't replicate that 

264
00:13:49,960 --> 00:13:53,360
explanation, can't explain to 
the average person in a way that

265
00:13:53,360 --> 00:13:56,080
they're going to care how the 
financial system works. 

266
00:13:56,080 --> 00:13:59,160
So that just doesn't really get 
us anywhere. 

267
00:13:59,160 --> 00:14:01,720
It's like it's kind of a 
distraction, kind of a waste of 

268
00:14:01,720 --> 00:14:02,920
time. 
I agree. 

269
00:14:02,920 --> 00:14:05,320
Like if he would be able to 
explain it, he would still 

270
00:14:05,320 --> 00:14:08,960
advocate for it. 
Like we need inflation to 

271
00:14:09,080 --> 00:14:12,640
incentivize people to spend 
money and grow the Yeah, yeah. 

272
00:14:12,640 --> 00:14:17,480
So, but this is, this is a good 
point because I think the, I 

273
00:14:17,480 --> 00:14:19,960
think it was Hayek who said, you
know, like we have to circumvent

274
00:14:19,960 --> 00:14:22,320
this in like a slide about the 
way, right? 

275
00:14:22,680 --> 00:14:25,200
I think that's what we're doing.
And that's also how I see 

276
00:14:25,200 --> 00:14:29,880
Bitcoin. 
Like I don't see moving into 

277
00:14:29,880 --> 00:14:32,560
Bitcoin as buying Bitcoin. 
I literally see it as moving, 

278
00:14:33,040 --> 00:14:35,320
right? 
So I have economic energy saved 

279
00:14:35,320 --> 00:14:39,480
in a system that, you know, is 
not working, and I'm just moving

280
00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:41,560
it to a totally different 
system. 

281
00:14:41,600 --> 00:14:44,640
I'm literally getting on another
boat or another planet almost. 

282
00:14:44,640 --> 00:14:48,640
Yeah. 
So I know your introduction to 

283
00:14:48,640 --> 00:14:52,760
Bitcoin was true, like an online
game economy. 

284
00:14:53,160 --> 00:14:56,560
Can you share a bit about that 
experience and and how it shaped

285
00:14:56,560 --> 00:15:00,760
your understanding of Bitcoin? 
Well, like in a way that also 

286
00:15:00,760 --> 00:15:03,720
made me very privileged because 
I first learned about Bitcoin, 

287
00:15:03,920 --> 00:15:07,800
as you mentioned, like through 
this online economy in a game 

288
00:15:08,040 --> 00:15:10,480
where basically you have like a 
lot of people know World of 

289
00:15:10,480 --> 00:15:13,560
Warcraft, I played like kind of 
an equivalent of that. 

290
00:15:13,560 --> 00:15:16,760
The second biggest game, it was 
called Runescape and it had its 

291
00:15:16,760 --> 00:15:20,000
own trading economy in there. 
And similar to World of 

292
00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:22,600
Warcraft, if you had things in 
that game, you could exchange it

293
00:15:22,600 --> 00:15:25,480
for real world money because you
had some people who are like, 

294
00:15:25,560 --> 00:15:28,520
you know, why am I going to 
spend my whole weekend trying to

295
00:15:28,600 --> 00:15:31,240
gather enough resources to pay 
for this expensive thing in the 

296
00:15:31,240 --> 00:15:34,080
game if I just have money that I
can change it for and then I 

297
00:15:34,080 --> 00:15:37,920
have it immediately. 
So an economy emerged there and 

298
00:15:38,920 --> 00:15:41,520
you could basically change the 
value that you had in the game 

299
00:15:41,520 --> 00:15:43,520
for real life money. 
The issue that you have with 

300
00:15:43,520 --> 00:15:47,160
that is when you're trading 
virtual goods, you like, you 

301
00:15:47,160 --> 00:15:49,800
can't really use something like 
PayPal because you don't have a 

302
00:15:49,880 --> 00:15:53,040
physical proof of the delivery 
that was made. 

303
00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:57,200
So people can just charge back. 
So in this kind of like online 

304
00:15:57,440 --> 00:16:00,760
marketplace, you need payment 
methods that can just be charged

305
00:16:00,760 --> 00:16:04,120
back or you get tons of fraud 
and then the cost of trading 

306
00:16:04,120 --> 00:16:06,800
just becomes really high. 
So in there, people started 

307
00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:10,400
accepting Bitcoin gradually and 
that's when I first started 

308
00:16:10,400 --> 00:16:13,160
looking into into it like, OK, 
that's interesting. 

309
00:16:13,760 --> 00:16:16,080
And as I started learning more 
about it, I realized like this 

310
00:16:16,080 --> 00:16:19,920
can be used by anyone anywhere, 
hence the appeal of course. 

311
00:16:20,440 --> 00:16:23,240
And sort of like in that whole 
journey, also realized that a 

312
00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:27,240
lot of people who were gathering
a lot of resources in that game 

313
00:16:27,240 --> 00:16:30,440
where in some cases from poorer 
countries, because if they would

314
00:16:30,440 --> 00:16:33,960
spend 10 hours a day gathering 
resources on there and exchange 

315
00:16:33,960 --> 00:16:39,280
that for dollars, ultimately 
then they would earn like $10 a 

316
00:16:39,280 --> 00:16:42,400
day or something, which for them
was a lot of money in some 

317
00:16:42,560 --> 00:16:43,840
places. 
There were a lot of people from 

318
00:16:43,840 --> 00:16:45,680
Venezuela, for example, that 
we're doing this. 

319
00:16:46,400 --> 00:16:50,000
So that really started opening 
my eyes to like, as a like 

320
00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:54,040
pretty young dude, like hold on,
like not every country in the 

321
00:16:54,040 --> 00:16:56,920
world has a well functioning 
economy because there's 

322
00:16:56,920 --> 00:17:00,240
literally people who can earn 
better money playing a game and 

323
00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:04,160
gathering some stuff on there. 
Then they could like working a 

324
00:17:04,160 --> 00:17:06,760
real job. 
So that kind of started making 

325
00:17:06,760 --> 00:17:09,359
me, you know, it's like humbling
in a way where you realize like,

326
00:17:09,359 --> 00:17:12,640
wow, this is the best money 
these people can earn. 

327
00:17:13,040 --> 00:17:16,400
Like there is no not necessarily
much of A future for them to be 

328
00:17:16,400 --> 00:17:19,040
able to build up much of A 
career to have like financial 

329
00:17:19,040 --> 00:17:22,160
stability and things they need 
to resort to stuff like this. 

330
00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:25,319
So that really opened my eyes to
a lot of things as well. 

331
00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:28,400
I find that so interesting, 
right? 

332
00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:32,920
Like that is what we previously 
talked about like not not seeing

333
00:17:32,920 --> 00:17:36,680
the problem, right? 
But money creates incentives, 

334
00:17:36,720 --> 00:17:38,880
right? 
Like we can agree on a certain 

335
00:17:38,880 --> 00:17:43,840
value exchange and an amount for
the reward, right? 

336
00:17:43,840 --> 00:17:48,040
Like the, the number of units of
a currency that that I get, but 

337
00:17:48,040 --> 00:17:52,000
the quality of the money 
determines the quality of my 

338
00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:55,040
work also, right? 
So I could say one thing, but if

339
00:17:55,040 --> 00:17:59,680
my reward is, is bad, you know, 
is, is, is broken, then you 

340
00:17:59,680 --> 00:18:03,800
know, I'm not going to put like 
all the value that I could put 

341
00:18:03,800 --> 00:18:06,800
in or, or all the energy. 
I, I'm not putting that into the

342
00:18:06,800 --> 00:18:09,320
work, right? 
Like, I love there's these like 

343
00:18:09,320 --> 00:18:12,160
Tik Toks and short videos about 
like these building inspectors 

344
00:18:12,160 --> 00:18:16,760
in America and they go to like 
newly built homes and they show 

345
00:18:17,280 --> 00:18:19,200
how it should be done and how it
is done. 

346
00:18:19,200 --> 00:18:22,200
And it's just such poor, poor 
quality, right? 

347
00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:27,280
But and so I think that's slowly
the case up until the point, as 

348
00:18:27,280 --> 00:18:30,080
you, I think illustrated, there 
are people in countries that 

349
00:18:30,080 --> 00:18:33,800
would rather play games. 
They are more incentivized to 

350
00:18:33,800 --> 00:18:39,920
play games all day than to help 
build homes or make food for 

351
00:18:39,920 --> 00:18:42,680
people. 
Or, you know, do whatever is 

352
00:18:42,680 --> 00:18:47,760
actually valuable for like, a 
community, right? 

353
00:18:48,280 --> 00:18:50,760
And I, I think there's a really 
extreme example of this as well.

354
00:18:50,760 --> 00:18:52,960
Like your, like your target 
audience is obviously 

355
00:18:52,960 --> 00:18:56,560
millennials, but even younger 
generations in a lot of cases. 

356
00:18:56,560 --> 00:18:59,400
Like if you ask them what do you
want to be when you grow up or 

357
00:18:59,400 --> 00:19:01,080
what would you ideally like to 
become? 

358
00:19:01,080 --> 00:19:02,800
All of them want to be like 
streamers. 

359
00:19:03,040 --> 00:19:05,240
Yeah. 
Like YouTube celebrities, TikTok

360
00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:09,360
celebrities, like that's sort of
idealized as this is the sort of

361
00:19:09,360 --> 00:19:11,960
the peak of, of what you could 
accomplish in a career. 

362
00:19:12,520 --> 00:19:16,400
So we're just seeing like, well,
that's more related to the 

363
00:19:16,400 --> 00:19:18,200
attention game, I think, than 
the money game. 

364
00:19:18,200 --> 00:19:20,880
It's like more related to status
than money necessarily. 

365
00:19:21,440 --> 00:19:24,360
But we're just seeing 
generations change because of 

366
00:19:24,720 --> 00:19:28,600
digital stuff in general. 
Well, it's what you aspire to 

367
00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:30,960
also, right, Because there's 
this survey, right? 

368
00:19:32,000 --> 00:19:34,880
What you refer to in America 
they say like I want to be an 

369
00:19:34,880 --> 00:19:37,720
influencer and in China they say
I want to be an astronaut or a 

370
00:19:37,720 --> 00:19:44,760
physical physicist or something.
So you know, it's also it, it, 

371
00:19:45,040 --> 00:19:49,880
it also changes that entire 
culture in a sense and and 

372
00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:55,720
therefore also the the society 
in, in a few years. 

373
00:19:55,720 --> 00:20:01,200
Because if it feels, if you feel
way more incentivized to try to 

374
00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:04,800
do like TikTok dances on the 
streets when you're 23 instead 

375
00:20:04,800 --> 00:20:10,440
of starting a physics study or 
master whatever, right? 

376
00:20:10,440 --> 00:20:14,520
Like eventually. 
We're gonna miss some physicists

377
00:20:15,040 --> 00:20:19,120
and like people who can actually
propel the societies forward 

378
00:20:19,120 --> 00:20:21,880
instead of Oh yeah, there's 
there's on the Internet. 

379
00:20:22,280 --> 00:20:24,360
There's a fun thing about this 
in the Netherlands, I think, 

380
00:20:24,360 --> 00:20:26,960
where it's like Amsterdam is 
something like 200,000 

381
00:20:26,960 --> 00:20:29,800
marketers. 
And I mean, I'm one of them so 

382
00:20:29,800 --> 00:20:33,200
I'm one to talk, but 200,000 
marketers and barely any of them

383
00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:35,200
can fix their own tap or 
something like that. 

384
00:20:35,320 --> 00:20:41,000
Yeah, that's a good one. 
So when, when you saw that like 

385
00:20:41,080 --> 00:20:45,120
and and you look at Bitcoin now 
what, what are aspects of of the

386
00:20:45,240 --> 00:20:50,160
value proposition of Bitcoin 
that attracted you first and and

387
00:20:50,160 --> 00:20:54,560
how do you view them now? 
I think what attracted me first 

388
00:20:54,560 --> 00:20:58,000
was the digital scarcity aspect,
because the game that I had 

389
00:20:58,000 --> 00:21:00,480
played, it also had scarce 
digital goods in there. 

390
00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:04,240
And that was, and they were 
worth a lot as a result because 

391
00:21:04,240 --> 00:21:05,680
they would never be created 
again. 

392
00:21:05,960 --> 00:21:08,960
And that for me was the thing 
that made it easiest for me to 

393
00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:12,840
understand Bitcoin because it's 
like it's just a thing that 

394
00:21:12,840 --> 00:21:15,560
wasn't common between the game 
and Bitcoin itself. 

395
00:21:16,120 --> 00:21:19,400
And for me, it just helped me 
understand like, OK, digital 

396
00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:21,880
scarcity I get. 
And now apparently we have a 

397
00:21:21,880 --> 00:21:24,960
system to do that where nobody's
in charge. 

398
00:21:24,960 --> 00:21:27,440
That was the weird part to me 
and the part where I felt like 

399
00:21:27,440 --> 00:21:28,880
there's got to be some kind of 
catch here. 

400
00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:30,520
Like, how could there be nobody 
in charge? 

401
00:21:31,080 --> 00:21:33,320
And took a little while for me 
to figure that out. 

402
00:21:33,800 --> 00:21:37,800
But that resonated the strongest
with me, not necessarily because

403
00:21:37,920 --> 00:21:43,120
I saw it as like, I really want 
to hold this and like hope that 

404
00:21:43,120 --> 00:21:46,360
it becomes worth a lot today, 
but more like technologically as

405
00:21:46,360 --> 00:21:48,840
an invention. 
That seems super fascinating to 

406
00:21:48,840 --> 00:21:52,000
me because it's not something I 
thought we'd previously had in 

407
00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:54,360
the world. 
So I was mostly just interested 

408
00:21:54,360 --> 00:21:58,240
from that perspective is like, 
how is this going to change the 

409
00:21:58,240 --> 00:22:00,920
world that we live in? 
Like, like, are people actually 

410
00:22:00,920 --> 00:22:02,680
going to adopt this in a similar
way? 

411
00:22:03,040 --> 00:22:06,200
And are all of those kind of 
like economies and trading 

412
00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:09,600
mechanics and everything that 
I've witnessed in my youth, are 

413
00:22:09,600 --> 00:22:12,200
they going to replicate around 
this thing in the real world 

414
00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:14,160
now? 
And you know, like, what kind of

415
00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:18,200
role can I play in that? 
And as well, like when I got 

416
00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:21,120
into IT, people were constantly 
talking about Bitcoin as a 

417
00:22:21,120 --> 00:22:24,360
medium of exchange, like really 
celebrating whenever a company 

418
00:22:24,360 --> 00:22:28,480
like Microsoft or like Newegg or
all of these marketplaces 

419
00:22:29,440 --> 00:22:32,240
started being like, oh, we start
accepting Bitcoin as a payment 

420
00:22:32,240 --> 00:22:34,320
method, like everyone was 
talking about that. 

421
00:22:34,320 --> 00:22:37,080
So I was also really interested 
for the digital payments 

422
00:22:37,080 --> 00:22:40,600
perspective, which is initially 
kind of like how I first 

423
00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:43,880
interfaced with it from trading 
goods in the game for real life 

424
00:22:43,880 --> 00:22:47,240
money, as we talked about. 
So it's really those two things 

425
00:22:47,240 --> 00:22:49,760
for me, it's the payments aspect
and just purely from a 

426
00:22:49,760 --> 00:22:53,120
technological level, I'm not a 
technical person by background, 

427
00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:56,880
but I was fascinated by how we 
could put something out there in

428
00:22:56,880 --> 00:22:59,040
the world in a real functioning 
way. 

429
00:22:59,920 --> 00:23:02,240
And it seemed to be working. 
There were just so many 

430
00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:04,080
questions around, like is it 
going to stick around, 

431
00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:07,840
obviously, but that really 
caught my attention. 

432
00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:10,080
Just just, I was just really 
impressed. 

433
00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:13,560
Do you feel it like still the 
same now? 

434
00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:17,280
Is it more proven or are there 
now also other things that that 

435
00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:19,320
you really see? 
Yeah, I think both. 

436
00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:23,480
It's definitely more proven like
I am, I'm less concerned that 

437
00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:26,320
it's going to go away than I was
back then. 

438
00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:28,320
Like back then, I mean, people 
had no clue. 

439
00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:29,520
Like, is this going to stick 
around? 

440
00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:32,000
Is it going to be worth much? 
That's completely changed. 

441
00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:37,360
But nowadays, like things I'm 
concerned about is like what 

442
00:23:37,360 --> 00:23:40,560
kind of people have we gotten 
interested in Bitcoin? 

443
00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:44,240
Because when I got into it 
initially, like you had a lot 

444
00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:47,520
more people who care about the 
privacy and the freedom aspect 

445
00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:50,200
of it and being able to transact
with anyone around the world. 

446
00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:53,360
And it feels like nowadays we 
have a like witches do. 

447
00:23:53,360 --> 00:23:56,520
We have way more people that 
care about the number going up, 

448
00:23:56,520 --> 00:23:59,400
about making a whole bunch of 
money and they aren't 

449
00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:02,640
necessarily as interested in 
sort of preserving the core 

450
00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:06,120
values of the network. 
So I'm a little more concerned 

451
00:24:06,120 --> 00:24:10,160
now than I was then about like, 
like, OK, this I'm, I'm sure now

452
00:24:10,160 --> 00:24:11,560
the system will continue to 
exist. 

453
00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:14,600
The question I have now is like,
what's it going to look like? 

454
00:24:14,600 --> 00:24:16,080
Like it's the vast majority of 
people. 

455
00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:19,240
Are they only going to focus on 
making more money and then 

456
00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:21,120
exchanging that for dollars or 
whatever? 

457
00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:25,560
Or will they still care about 
actually switching over to a 

458
00:24:25,560 --> 00:24:28,640
system with a limited supply? 
Like is that, is that for some 

459
00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:30,920
people just like a talking point
in the hopes that it will make 

460
00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:32,360
the price go up? 
Or do they actually 

461
00:24:32,360 --> 00:24:35,120
fundamentally care that we don't
just have a small group of 

462
00:24:35,120 --> 00:24:37,080
people that decide how many 
dollars there's going to be 

463
00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:39,840
tomorrow or how many euros or 
whatever currency? 

464
00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:44,320
Like if we lose that kind of 
like that aspect, that core 

465
00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:47,480
principle of the network where 
people will just like happily 

466
00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:51,920
grasp any narrative that 
accomplishes the outcome they 

467
00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:55,640
want, which is having more 
money, then that would be a true

468
00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:57,800
pity, I think. 
So that's what I'm a bit 

469
00:24:57,800 --> 00:25:01,280
concerned about because you just
see a lot of hype around price 

470
00:25:01,280 --> 00:25:05,880
going up and a lot of people who
will just watch anything happen 

471
00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:08,080
that makes the price go up and 
cheer them on. 

472
00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:13,640
Well, to be honest, I think we 
also have had that phase. 

473
00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:17,600
I think a lot of people get into
Bitcoin because number go up. 

474
00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:23,680
I, I, I think it's good 
marketing actually, but it takes

475
00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:28,160
some time to get to I'd say 
where we are, where we are now, 

476
00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:30,120
right. 
And so I think every cycle 

477
00:25:30,120 --> 00:25:35,480
there's this new batch of people
that that get into it mainly, 

478
00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:40,840
I'd say because number go up and
well, yeah, if if you're curious

479
00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:44,960
enough and you die, you like 
want to understand what this is 

480
00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:46,800
then. 
Well, we both know that the 

481
00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:49,320
rabbit hole is kind of like an 
endless thing, right? 

482
00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:54,160
And and you get into Bitcoin 
based on, you know, your age, 

483
00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:58,400
experience, whatever interests 
from from a different dimension.

484
00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:05,840
So I would agree, but I think it
it also takes time to feel maybe

485
00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:10,800
for us that the people new to 
this actually, you know, go 

486
00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:13,600
beyond the the number number go 
up. 

487
00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:16,520
I mean, took me several years 
to. 

488
00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:21,000
Yeah, I mean, to get there, I 
know it takes time for sure. 

489
00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:25,560
I'm just like I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm
wondering if it's going to keep 

490
00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:28,640
happening at the same kind of 
rate or if less and less people 

491
00:26:28,640 --> 00:26:30,960
will get interested in it for 
that reason. 

492
00:26:31,360 --> 00:26:34,080
And then in the long term, just 
like what, what kind of effects 

493
00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:35,920
will that have? 
Are we eventually just going to 

494
00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:39,360
have like a almost like a 
PayPal, but with the 21 million,

495
00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:44,240
will that be the outcome or are 
people going to keep trying to 

496
00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:48,320
fight for having like proper 
tools that allow us to have a 

497
00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:50,680
decentralized system? 
So we're kind of at a 

498
00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:53,760
interesting point in time, I 
think, for that with all of the 

499
00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:57,120
regulatory conversations and 
people trying to figure out 

500
00:26:57,120 --> 00:26:59,400
like, really like, how do we 
make this thing scale and what 

501
00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:02,680
should be built there? 
So I think we live in a super 

502
00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:05,920
interesting time for it. 
Like I'm glad we're no longer 

503
00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:10,160
wondering like, is this thing 
going to get banned or limited 

504
00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:12,200
somehow? 
And it's much more like how you 

505
00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:14,440
know what shape is it going to 
take moving forward. 

506
00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:20,000
Yeah, I think my view didn't 
really change that much on it. 

507
00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:25,000
I I always saw Bitcoin as like a
zero or everything thing, you 

508
00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:29,480
know, like there's no, I I don't
see a world where Bitcoin ends 

509
00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:36,600
up in like this in between phase
or, or, or like, yeah, and ends 

510
00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:41,440
up at, at, at some mediocre 
store value asset. 

511
00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:45,800
I think the arguments for that 
are super clear. 

512
00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:51,120
I think finite, provable, finite
supply is the main thing. 

513
00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:55,800
Everything else where you could 
store wealth in can be created 

514
00:27:58,600 --> 00:28:01,440
of those things. 
More of those things can be 

515
00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:05,040
created, right? 
So therefore Bitcoin is superior

516
00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:07,680
in that sense. 
But yeah, so I always thought 

517
00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:10,360
it's either zero or like, you 
know what some people say the 

518
00:28:10,360 --> 00:28:12,600
black hole value like 
everything, everyone's going to 

519
00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:15,240
store their productivity, the 
reward for the productivity in 

520
00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:19,760
in Bitcoin, I think. 
I would agree, but but I would 

521
00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:22,960
mostly credit that remote. 
Like a large part of that I 

522
00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:25,640
would credit to the fact that we
just know that they'll keep 

523
00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:30,120
printing Fiat currencies and not
necessarily to Bitcoin. 

524
00:28:30,120 --> 00:28:32,600
It's like, I mean, Bitcoin's 
design just needs to be what it 

525
00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:36,200
is for a lot of the store value 
to move over to it. 

526
00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:39,120
Like it just needs to continue 
to not screw up for that to 

527
00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:42,400
happen. 
So I agree with you on the like 

528
00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:46,040
the store of value sense. 
I just like even from a store of

529
00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:48,640
value perspective, I'm just 
concerned that in the long run, 

530
00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:51,520
the vast majority of people 
would just store their money on 

531
00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:57,800
an exchange or with some kind of
custodian and like everything 

532
00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:01,760
fully KYC D and controlled by 
the government, governments 

533
00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:03,800
rather. 
And I just wondered like, what 

534
00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:05,320
implications is that going to 
have? 

535
00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:08,960
Like once they really start 
screwing up so hard that they 

536
00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:11,560
just don't know where to get the
money to pay off their debts. 

537
00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:14,360
That's where I start wondering 
like are they going to start 

538
00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:17,760
touching those exchanges and 
like collecting bigger and 

539
00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:21,080
bigger taxes from people who 
stored our value in Bitcoin? 

540
00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:25,920
And are we then kind of like 
back to where like, I guess, I 

541
00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:28,360
guess like back to where we are 
now in the sense that, you know,

542
00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:31,320
they're just able to touch all 
of the assets so they can keep 

543
00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:33,240
printing and just taking more 
money from the people. 

544
00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:37,600
That's a bit like, it's a bit of
a dark, gloomy view, but it's 

545
00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:39,880
just something that I think 
about and I'm concerned about 

546
00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:43,680
because we're trying to get away
from that point where they can 

547
00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:47,280
just like right now, they're 
confiscating mass amounts of 

548
00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:48,800
wealth from people through 
inflation. 

549
00:29:49,280 --> 00:29:51,440
But if at that point they can 
just directly take it from 

550
00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:54,680
people's Bitcoin accounts, then.
Yeah, I would agree. 

551
00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:56,280
I think this is the biggest 
challenge. 

552
00:29:56,640 --> 00:30:01,640
What I would say is that the 
inflation is covert in some, 

553
00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:05,280
well, to some degree super true.
You know, it's, it's, it's 

554
00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:11,560
covert and a lot of people have 
been led to believe that it's 

555
00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:14,320
necessary and normal and blah, 
blah, like, like all these 

556
00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:16,880
things, right? 
And I think the confiscation, 

557
00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:23,120
you know, like, like the gold 
confiscation, you know, as as 

558
00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:28,000
the prime example also was in a 
time where information was way 

559
00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:32,120
more scattered, right? 
And so I think it's good to look

560
00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:34,360
at the past to see what could 
happen. 

561
00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:42,840
But in doing that exact thing in
2024 is never going to fly. 

562
00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:45,480
I think it just doesn't work 
like that. 

563
00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:51,040
You know, that overtly doing 
that in in such an open fashion,

564
00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:53,680
I, I don't think that's going to
fly. 

565
00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:58,920
There's also, well, we see what 
political, you know, power this 

566
00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:01,560
brings in a sense, you know, 
with, with the votings in, in 

567
00:31:01,560 --> 00:31:05,960
the Congress, like in the, in 
the, in the past two weeks, this

568
00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:11,960
has now become a thing. 
And I, I agree with you that 

569
00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:14,280
this is the biggest challenge. 
Like how are we going to 

570
00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:17,720
overcome the fact that 
governments will come for the 

571
00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:19,720
Bitcoin? 
You know, I think that is very 

572
00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:24,920
clear. 
But I think if we zoom out a bit

573
00:31:24,920 --> 00:31:27,800
more, I think conceptually, so I
don't know how it's going to 

574
00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:32,440
work, but I feel like there's 
going to be a power shift 

575
00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:36,320
towards the Bitcoiners in a 
sense, right? 

576
00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:44,840
Because if a tax person is going
to investigate a Bitcoiner and 

577
00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:49,000
they say like, well, I got your 
KYC Coinbase account here, you 

578
00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:50,760
bought this, you stored it 
there. 

579
00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:53,960
You know, you took it off 
Coinbase to this wallet. 

580
00:31:54,560 --> 00:31:57,880
Now you have to pay. 
And then when you say, you know,

581
00:31:57,880 --> 00:32:01,840
I lost it in a boating accident 
and they talk to 100 Bitcoiners 

582
00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:05,800
that all say that there's going 
to be an interesting moment 

583
00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:08,720
where they're going to sue 
someone. 

584
00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:11,640
I'd say, right? 
And they're going to be like, 

585
00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:15,760
well, Sam, you're fucked. 
You know, you have this amount 

586
00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:17,480
of Bitcoin and you're going to 
have to pay. 

587
00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:20,120
And you say, I am not in the 
possession of these Bitcoin. 

588
00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:24,400
And that's going to be an it's 
like the most classic power 

589
00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:25,840
struggle. 
It's like he said, she said, 

590
00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:28,040
right? 
And then there's going to be a 

591
00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:32,840
person that's going to go to 
court and they're going to say, 

592
00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:36,120
I just don't have access. 
I don't know. 

593
00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:39,560
And then the government's going 
to say, well, you should share 

594
00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:42,080
your password. 
And then we'll we'll be at the 

595
00:32:42,360 --> 00:32:45,040
lowest point of the lowest 
point, which is they're going to

596
00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:50,800
compel speech, which no judge is
going to be in favor of. 

597
00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:56,120
I would say, I would argue, but 
I mean, with the ETF, we've seen

598
00:32:56,240 --> 00:32:58,120
things, you know, can go 
different. 

599
00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:01,880
But this is so public. 
It's it's 2024. 

600
00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:03,440
It's so public, right? 
And. 

601
00:33:03,640 --> 00:33:05,400
I fully agree with everything 
you're saying, so I. 

602
00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:08,800
Think that that is really the 
the thing it's so public and so 

603
00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:13,400
transparent and Bitcoin is a 
worldwide movement or community,

604
00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:15,560
right. 
There's very powerful and 

605
00:33:15,560 --> 00:33:18,240
influential people that are also
already bitcoiners. 

606
00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:20,400
They're also in the Senate, you 
know, all all these things like 

607
00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:25,160
so it it permeates to all these 
individuals and so the 

608
00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:29,400
collectives that are trying to, 
you know, assert this this power

609
00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:32,560
in different ways. 
They will slowly be be broken 

610
00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:33,840
up. 
That doesn't change the fact 

611
00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:38,360
that America will probably and 
desperately look for, you know, 

612
00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:42,680
funds to pay for their for their
interests, you know, But yeah, 

613
00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:45,960
that's kind of how I view it. 
I mean, I fully agree with with 

614
00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:48,880
everything you said there, but I
would like maybe the nuance what

615
00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:51,360
I previously said. 
I'm not, I'm not saying they 

616
00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:55,960
will specifically like like 
necessarily tax you directly and

617
00:33:55,960 --> 00:33:59,560
just overtly take the money. 
They can also just run the same 

618
00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:02,520
game that they've run for a long
time, which is just starting to 

619
00:34:02,520 --> 00:34:04,400
run fractional reserves on 
exchanges. 

620
00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:07,240
And if you're in a scenario 
where let's say like all the 

621
00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:11,600
miners are KYC so you can't send
like, and they decide who gets 

622
00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:16,360
to send money or not, which is 
like, again, this is like, it's 

623
00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:18,400
a hypothetical scenario. 
But if you get to that point 

624
00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:21,520
where all the minors are or the 
vast majority of them are very 

625
00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:24,000
much controlled and the exchange
even decides whether you're 

626
00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:28,360
allowed to withdraw or not, then
it can get a bit tricky where 

627
00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:30,840
people can't move their money 
off an exchange so easily. 

628
00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:34,239
And if they can move it off an 
exchange or only from one to 

629
00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:35,920
another. 
But the government basically 

630
00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:38,800
says the way we're going to 
collect these taxes is just by 

631
00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:43,400
forcing the exchange to inflate 
the supply, like to pretend that

632
00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:46,000
there's Bitcoin there that isn't
actually there and all you're 

633
00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:48,719
holding our numbers on this one 
exchange that you're using or on

634
00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:51,320
another exchange. 
But across the system, we start 

635
00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:55,400
going beyond the 21,000,000. 
So for me, like the, the point 

636
00:34:55,400 --> 00:34:58,600
I'm trying to say is like, I 
think the like sort of the core 

637
00:34:58,600 --> 00:35:01,720
values of Bitcoin, the ability 
to freely transacted, they're 

638
00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:04,680
they're almost intertwined with 
that 21 million because the 

639
00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:07,280
moment that stops existing and 
we all just keep our money at 

640
00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:11,040
Bitcoin bank, so to speak. 
And like I'm hoping like a way 

641
00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:13,360
to counteract that, for example,
is having like proper proof of 

642
00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:15,440
reserves and proof of 
liabilities and all of this 

643
00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:19,160
stuff that can help a lot there,
But that's not really something 

644
00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:22,040
we're seeing happen in practice 
with most exchanges today. 

645
00:35:23,080 --> 00:35:25,520
And even when they do proof of 
reserves, there's no proof of 

646
00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:28,920
liabilities and just all kinds 
of other questions around that. 

647
00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:33,520
So that's just a bit of a like 
an unanswered direction of like 

648
00:35:33,640 --> 00:35:36,360
are we properly covering that to
make sure we don't get in those 

649
00:35:36,360 --> 00:35:41,080
kinds of issues? 
Yeah, I'd say last, last reply 

650
00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:42,680
to that. 
I, I also agree. 

651
00:35:42,680 --> 00:35:48,200
I think I, I think they could 
try it. 

652
00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:53,280
But one of the things that I 
think is really great about 

653
00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:55,760
Bitcoin is that we can force 
this transparency, right? 

654
00:35:55,760 --> 00:35:58,120
Like as you said, like proof, 
proof of reserves. 

655
00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:04,800
I think it's just one thing. 
Yeah, it's a, it's a fairpoint. 

656
00:36:04,920 --> 00:36:06,920
Eventually these are also 
businesses, right? 

657
00:36:06,920 --> 00:36:12,880
So if, if there are exchanges 
that that would not comply with 

658
00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:16,520
this, you know, ask for 
transparency, then customers 

659
00:36:16,520 --> 00:36:19,280
should be able to move if they 
are then blocked, etcetera, 

660
00:36:19,280 --> 00:36:21,280
right? 
Like, I mean, this is my, my 

661
00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:26,040
entire thing like that, that I 
don't know if that's going to 

662
00:36:26,040 --> 00:36:29,120
happen, man, because it's just 
so it's just so it's just so 

663
00:36:29,120 --> 00:36:31,680
public, right? 
So if you're a public traded, if

664
00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:34,800
Coinbase is going to halt 
Bitcoin withdrawals, they have a

665
00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:38,480
real huge problem. 
I think I think so too, but I, I

666
00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:41,120
would like caveat that by 
saying, I think by that point 

667
00:36:41,120 --> 00:36:43,440
the world will also have changed
quite significantly. 

668
00:36:44,080 --> 00:36:46,960
And, and, and the part that I 
guess like back to our 

669
00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:50,640
discussion of like what kind of 
responses do you get when you 

670
00:36:50,640 --> 00:36:53,560
talk to millennials, for 
example, is like, I, I think 

671
00:36:53,560 --> 00:36:56,840
we're potentially going to move 
towards a world where like the 

672
00:36:56,840 --> 00:37:00,040
people who are interested in 
Bitcoin, they're largely in and 

673
00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:02,280
a lot of the rest of the 
population feel like they've 

674
00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:04,480
just missed out. 
And we're now trying to get them

675
00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:06,960
in to be able to offload our 
Bitcoin or whatever, which is 

676
00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:09,520
like, if you talk to an actual 
Bitcoiner, we don't want to do 

677
00:37:09,520 --> 00:37:10,760
that. 
We want to keep as much as 

678
00:37:10,760 --> 00:37:12,480
possible. 
We don't want to share it. 

679
00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:14,760
We just care about the people 
around us and that's why we 

680
00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:16,200
share it. 
But I think. 

681
00:37:16,200 --> 00:37:18,680
That point illustrates why we 
need to talk about this. 

682
00:37:18,680 --> 00:37:23,680
Because just that fault is such 
a Fiat 0 sum game fault, right? 

683
00:37:23,680 --> 00:37:26,600
That's what sorry for the 
boomers, but a lot of like 

684
00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:29,360
boomer critics, especially in 
our country will be like, yeah, 

685
00:37:29,720 --> 00:37:31,760
you know, you want to get me 
into Bitcoin because then you 

686
00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:33,840
can dump it on me. 
Like dump for what? 

687
00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:35,800
Dude? 
Like the entire reason like 

688
00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:40,720
Bitcoin is that I don't like the
our political currency like 

689
00:37:40,720 --> 00:37:42,120
that. 
That's the entire point. 

690
00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:45,400
So that shows they don't 
understand, but it also shows 

691
00:37:45,400 --> 00:37:49,040
still that the people who listen
to that also are not thinking 

692
00:37:49,040 --> 00:37:51,640
for themselves and they don't 
understand, you know, And well, 

693
00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:53,920
then we get back to the 
beginning when we talked about, 

694
00:37:53,920 --> 00:37:57,280
you know, I think we are both 
feel the urge to talk about this

695
00:37:57,280 --> 00:37:58,680
more. 
And, yeah, of course, like, some

696
00:37:58,680 --> 00:38:01,240
people are going to get it and 
some people are not going to get

697
00:38:01,240 --> 00:38:04,680
it. 
Now, I get lots of messages, to 

698
00:38:04,680 --> 00:38:06,880
be honest, from all sorts of 
people. 

699
00:38:07,160 --> 00:38:11,440
Last week I got a message from a
guy who is a high school teacher

700
00:38:12,240 --> 00:38:15,800
and he and his wife, he he 
messaged me like a year ago or 

701
00:38:15,800 --> 00:38:18,160
something also about Bitcoin. 
And then he was like, yeah, I'm 

702
00:38:18,160 --> 00:38:19,520
going to trade a bit this and 
that. 

703
00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:24,360
I said, just let me know how 
that goes and I'll, I'll hear 

704
00:38:24,360 --> 00:38:26,640
from you, right. 
And then like six months ago or 

705
00:38:26,640 --> 00:38:29,720
something, he sent me a message.
So he's also, he's like 33, I 

706
00:38:29,720 --> 00:38:33,800
think 34 or something like that.
And he sent me a message. 

707
00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:36,120
He's like, yeah, you were right.
I'm a shit trader. 

708
00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:39,000
I cannot compete. 
I panic sold Bitcoin. 

709
00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:40,960
Now I have less Bitcoin than 
before, right? 

710
00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:44,080
So he, he went through it and 
then like last week, he sent me 

711
00:38:44,080 --> 00:38:46,040
a message. 
He's like, yeah, me and my 

712
00:38:46,040 --> 00:38:48,720
girlfriend have this crazy idea.
We're going to sell everything 

713
00:38:48,720 --> 00:38:51,840
we have, sell our house, We're 
going to travel around the world

714
00:38:51,840 --> 00:38:55,120
with our child. 
I'm going to have 500K cash. 

715
00:38:55,120 --> 00:38:58,160
How would you approach this, you
know, buying Bitcoin and, and 

716
00:38:58,160 --> 00:39:01,440
living off and I'm like, damn, 
you know, like that's one year, 

717
00:39:01,880 --> 00:39:06,160
the one year of this high school
teacher guy who went through 

718
00:39:06,160 --> 00:39:09,560
this entire learning curve, you 
know, and, and so it is 

719
00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:14,360
happening. 
People are are starting to think

720
00:39:14,360 --> 00:39:19,800
for themselves from all levels 
of, of society, I'd say. 

721
00:39:19,840 --> 00:39:24,360
And so I think it is happening, 
but it's a slow thing because 

722
00:39:24,360 --> 00:39:27,960
it's it's, you know, I like the 
mind virus concept, you know, 

723
00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:30,960
like it is that. 
And I think so too. 

724
00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:33,920
Like I'm not saying bitcoins not
going to grow, but I think like 

725
00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:36,840
a large number of the people at 
this point, like it's existed 

726
00:39:36,840 --> 00:39:39,400
for 15 years. 
A large number of the people who

727
00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:42,760
are like kind of like 
intellectually curious about it.

728
00:39:43,440 --> 00:39:45,640
Like I'd say a pretty big 
portion is already in at this 

729
00:39:45,640 --> 00:39:48,360
point and the rest will have 
more and more resistance. 

730
00:39:48,360 --> 00:39:51,520
So then my concern is kind of 
like moving towards the future. 

731
00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:56,200
As things get more dire 
financially for everyone, people

732
00:39:56,200 --> 00:39:59,200
will start finding scapegoats 
for like, where can we now get 

733
00:39:59,200 --> 00:40:02,360
the money to pay for the 
situation we've gotten ourselves

734
00:40:02,360 --> 00:40:04,360
in? 
And they'll try to pit US 

735
00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:06,680
against them in a way, or them 
against us. 

736
00:40:07,080 --> 00:40:09,480
Yeah, well, that, that's also 
one point I wanted to make is 

737
00:40:09,480 --> 00:40:13,400
that when I said like powers are
going to also shift to Bitcoin, 

738
00:40:13,400 --> 00:40:16,680
as I think also Balashi talks 
about this a lot, you know, he 

739
00:40:16,680 --> 00:40:20,040
eventually goes to, you know, 
well then you just move, right? 

740
00:40:21,280 --> 00:40:23,680
I don't think a lot of people 
would actually want to move. 

741
00:40:23,880 --> 00:40:30,760
Totally agreed. 
But the, the, the, the, the, the

742
00:40:30,760 --> 00:40:35,560
power projection of no 
government towards people or 

743
00:40:35,560 --> 00:40:38,400
people towards the government. 
I, I, I do think like that can 

744
00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:42,760
shift right, because even though
if you know, I, I don't see 

745
00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:46,480
hyper bitcoinization, as you 
know, like an entire country on 

746
00:40:46,480 --> 00:40:49,280
a Bitcoin standard. 
I, I don't, I, I just don't 

747
00:40:49,280 --> 00:40:53,840
think that will be practical. 
But having like a Bitcoin backed

748
00:40:53,840 --> 00:40:59,680
currency where you actually 
follow the entire ethos of 

749
00:40:59,680 --> 00:41:02,040
Bitcoin and being ultra 
transparent, the proof of 

750
00:41:02,040 --> 00:41:03,640
reserves and on all these 
things, right. 

751
00:41:03,640 --> 00:41:08,000
And if you can have like a paper
currency on top of that, I think

752
00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:12,320
that is fine because then you 
have Bitcoin as the base layer 

753
00:41:12,720 --> 00:41:16,960
asset that forces the 
transparency of the, you know, 

754
00:41:17,040 --> 00:41:19,720
the well, then it's kind of 
like, no, that's not Fiat, but 

755
00:41:19,720 --> 00:41:21,840
like the, the, the paper. 
Currency, you know. 

756
00:41:23,240 --> 00:41:26,480
I I kind of see that model 
being. 

757
00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:30,120
A possibility. 
Yeah, like more than only 

758
00:41:30,120 --> 00:41:32,360
Bitcoin. 
I I would say that that is 

759
00:41:32,360 --> 00:41:34,800
probably. 
And, and I would agree like, 

760
00:41:34,920 --> 00:41:38,440
yeah, maybe the nuance of stuff 
I've said as well is like I 

761
00:41:38,480 --> 00:41:43,080
remain optimistic about Bitcoin 
and like I'm, I'm just hopeful 

762
00:41:43,080 --> 00:41:46,640
that the worst case scenario we 
end up with would be that like, 

763
00:41:46,720 --> 00:41:49,200
you know, we enforce the 21 
million and people will try to 

764
00:41:49,200 --> 00:41:51,040
mess with that. 
And whether they'll succeed or 

765
00:41:51,040 --> 00:41:52,920
not is, you know, that's a big 
question. 

766
00:41:52,920 --> 00:41:54,800
Mark you. 
Can mess with that now you can 

767
00:41:54,800 --> 00:41:57,120
start your Bitcoin Sam whatever 
so. 

768
00:41:57,120 --> 00:42:00,560
Yeah, well, well, more like in a
sense of like try to dilute it 

769
00:42:00,560 --> 00:42:04,000
via exchanges and what alt? 
And kind of like like SBF with 

770
00:42:04,120 --> 00:42:07,360
FTX, they also ran this whole 
model and it goes on for a 

771
00:42:07,360 --> 00:42:09,400
while. 
They just went a little too 

772
00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:11,360
extreme with it. 
If they wouldn't have been in it

773
00:42:11,360 --> 00:42:14,280
as extreme, maybe it would have 
gone on for a decade for all you

774
00:42:14,280 --> 00:42:17,680
know until people find out. 
Oh, actually the Bitcoin isn't 

775
00:42:17,680 --> 00:42:22,640
there, so. 
But also if, if we get more 

776
00:42:22,640 --> 00:42:25,480
wealthy or Bitcoiners get more 
wealthy and more influential, 

777
00:42:25,720 --> 00:42:29,120
and it looks like, you know, 
Coinbase as a random example is 

778
00:42:29,120 --> 00:42:31,840
cooking the books, you know, and
then they have paper Bitcoin. 

779
00:42:34,040 --> 00:42:37,600
I don't know who said this, but 
I, I believe it like Bitcoiners 

780
00:42:37,600 --> 00:42:40,880
that gain power are also 
incentivized to protect Bitcoin,

781
00:42:41,120 --> 00:42:42,720
right? 
So it's like it's it's it's like

782
00:42:42,720 --> 00:42:46,200
a nice loop. 
And so there will be people that

783
00:42:46,280 --> 00:42:49,640
will sue Coinbase, right? 
And force them to be actually 

784
00:42:49,640 --> 00:42:52,600
transparent and show all these 
things like that is I think the 

785
00:42:52,600 --> 00:42:55,320
main point I would follow is the
fact that, you know, banks are 

786
00:42:55,320 --> 00:42:58,200
cooking books and you had the 
whole 2008 financial crisis. 

787
00:42:58,200 --> 00:43:01,760
All, you know, everything is 
abstracted and obscured and all 

788
00:43:01,760 --> 00:43:04,400
these things and general 
population has no clue. 

789
00:43:04,400 --> 00:43:10,600
They still don't understand it. 
You know, if the base layer 

790
00:43:10,600 --> 00:43:14,240
asset is Bitcoin, that is just 
going to be way, way more 

791
00:43:14,240 --> 00:43:16,120
difficult I. 
Totally, yeah. 

792
00:43:16,120 --> 00:43:18,960
And this to me is one of the 
most fascinating things about 

793
00:43:18,960 --> 00:43:22,120
Bitcoin is because what we're 
seeing in the Fiat system, it's 

794
00:43:22,120 --> 00:43:24,080
like, to your point earlier, 
it's all incentives. 

795
00:43:24,080 --> 00:43:28,280
Like if we recreated a financial
system from scratch, we'd get a 

796
00:43:28,280 --> 00:43:30,320
lot of that same stuff all over 
again. 

797
00:43:30,640 --> 00:43:33,120
And it's now that we're 
introducing this one base rule 

798
00:43:33,120 --> 00:43:37,240
that people can't change through
their opinions or, or mistakes 

799
00:43:37,240 --> 00:43:42,160
or whatever it is that they've 
done to make them do things they

800
00:43:42,160 --> 00:43:44,600
should not be doing. 
Like that's really what's 

801
00:43:44,600 --> 00:43:47,440
interesting to me. 
And I really wonder in general, 

802
00:43:47,440 --> 00:43:49,880
like that's part of my interest 
in Bitcoin is, does that 

803
00:43:49,880 --> 00:43:52,600
principle hold up? 
Like, is it strong enough to 

804
00:43:52,640 --> 00:43:56,360
fight back against human 
stupidity over decades and over 

805
00:43:56,360 --> 00:43:59,760
centuries to really 
fundamentally change the way 

806
00:43:59,760 --> 00:44:01,480
society works? 
And I'm very hopeful that it 

807
00:44:01,480 --> 00:44:03,360
does. 
That's a big part of why I'm so 

808
00:44:03,360 --> 00:44:08,040
fascinated by Bitcoin. 
I just like sometimes I, I feel 

809
00:44:08,040 --> 00:44:10,760
like a lot of Bitcoiners take it
for granted, like that's how 

810
00:44:10,760 --> 00:44:12,560
stuff is going to play out. 
I agree. 

811
00:44:12,560 --> 00:44:15,760
I'm sure someone will like, oh, 
if, if a government's too 

812
00:44:15,760 --> 00:44:17,800
oppressive, I'm sure loads of 
bit corners will move. 

813
00:44:17,800 --> 00:44:19,920
And then to your point, a lot of
them actually don't end up 

814
00:44:19,920 --> 00:44:21,920
moving. 
It's more like, it's more like a

815
00:44:21,920 --> 00:44:25,120
talking point to feel good about
if, if things get bad, then I'm 

816
00:44:25,120 --> 00:44:27,360
sure I'll move out. 
But then in practice, it's like 

817
00:44:27,360 --> 00:44:29,520
they're non big corner family 
and friends. 

818
00:44:29,760 --> 00:44:32,240
They don't want to move. 
So then they also don't want to 

819
00:44:32,240 --> 00:44:33,600
move. 
And then a lot of people just 

820
00:44:33,680 --> 00:44:35,360
end up staying where they are. 
Yeah. 

821
00:44:35,360 --> 00:44:38,240
So I'm like, I'm constantly 
trying to figure out like how 

822
00:44:38,240 --> 00:44:41,160
many of the arguments that we 
use when we say bitcoins going 

823
00:44:41,160 --> 00:44:43,760
to succeed, how many of them we 
do we actually believe in are 

824
00:44:43,760 --> 00:44:47,440
actually happening versus how 
many of them are things people 

825
00:44:47,440 --> 00:44:51,280
like to believe because they 
sound good and give them hope 

826
00:44:51,280 --> 00:44:54,120
about the future and all of that
kind of stuff. 

827
00:44:54,600 --> 00:44:57,080
So I think it's it's a super 
interesting development. 

828
00:44:57,480 --> 00:45:00,560
I think part of it is hope on 
the other side, I think, you 

829
00:45:00,560 --> 00:45:03,960
know, it's lots of people, 
Bitcoiners will talk about this 

830
00:45:03,960 --> 00:45:08,160
like once if we fix the, the, 
the base layer, right? 

831
00:45:08,160 --> 00:45:11,760
Of, of the, of the value or, or 
what represents value in an 

832
00:45:11,760 --> 00:45:13,760
economy. 
If we fix that and it's 

833
00:45:13,800 --> 00:45:19,360
ultimately transparent, then 
like incentive #1 is the purest 

834
00:45:19,360 --> 00:45:23,040
incentive, right? 
If, if, if, if, if, if you get 

835
00:45:23,040 --> 00:45:24,880
the, the reward, right? 
Does that make sense? 

836
00:45:24,880 --> 00:45:27,880
Like, like, yeah, like incentive
number one of a whole chain of 

837
00:45:28,080 --> 00:45:34,000
things that people do, right? 
And if you want to do something 

838
00:45:34,000 --> 00:45:38,960
for me and your rewards going to
be Bitcoin, I can force you to 

839
00:45:38,960 --> 00:45:42,920
do the best you can or be the 
most transparent as you can be, 

840
00:45:43,120 --> 00:45:44,680
right? 
Or else I'm just not going to 

841
00:45:45,520 --> 00:45:47,840
pay you for your surface or your
or your product. 

842
00:45:47,840 --> 00:45:52,280
And I think just like how now 
people are subconsciously 

843
00:45:52,640 --> 00:45:56,520
complying to something they 
don't understand, hopefully they

844
00:45:56,520 --> 00:45:58,960
will understand Bitcoin better 
later on, right? 

845
00:45:58,960 --> 00:46:03,120
And I think we are both trying 
to, to add to that, but 

846
00:46:04,280 --> 00:46:08,040
complying is easier than trying 
to figure out how can I go 

847
00:46:08,320 --> 00:46:11,880
against this, right? 
So I, I do also see that in like

848
00:46:12,280 --> 00:46:16,480
human behavior, right? 
That it's like, OK, well, I'm, 

849
00:46:16,480 --> 00:46:19,280
I'm forced to actually do the 
work that I promised to do for 

850
00:46:19,280 --> 00:46:23,120
you. 
OK, well, I guess I'm going to 

851
00:46:23,120 --> 00:46:25,720
do that, you know, so. 
I, I, I love that aspect. 

852
00:46:25,720 --> 00:46:27,600
And that's really interesting 
about, I think like all the 

853
00:46:27,600 --> 00:46:30,880
stuff Jeff Booth says around 
like a deflationary world, how 

854
00:46:31,040 --> 00:46:33,400
you have economists who complain
about that, that it doesn't 

855
00:46:33,400 --> 00:46:36,080
function. 
I'm like, on the other hand, I'm

856
00:46:36,080 --> 00:46:39,040
like, you know, pretty damn 
exciting to see a world in which

857
00:46:39,040 --> 00:46:43,040
everyone's like, like we have to
all work a bit harder or like, 

858
00:46:43,040 --> 00:46:46,400
like put in our best effort to 
make quality things and to not 

859
00:46:46,400 --> 00:46:49,040
cut corners and everything. 
The Fiat thinking, as you would 

860
00:46:49,040 --> 00:46:52,680
probably call it. 
I, I really like that aspect of 

861
00:46:52,680 --> 00:46:54,360
it too. 
And seeing like, where does that

862
00:46:54,360 --> 00:46:57,640
take society? 
If we can really like embed that

863
00:46:57,640 --> 00:47:01,400
kind of incentive system in the 
world, I think we can accomplish

864
00:47:01,400 --> 00:47:04,040
wonderful things. 
The question is like, to what, 

865
00:47:04,320 --> 00:47:06,200
to what extent can we can we 
embed it? 

866
00:47:06,200 --> 00:47:09,720
Like how far does that grow? 
Where I become such a large 

867
00:47:09,720 --> 00:47:13,280
force that just more and more 
people start thinking that way. 

868
00:47:13,280 --> 00:47:15,960
Like I want to get up every day 
and I want to build something I 

869
00:47:15,960 --> 00:47:18,920
don't make. 
I want to make my surroundings, 

870
00:47:18,920 --> 00:47:21,280
my community and everything 
better than they are now. 

871
00:47:21,680 --> 00:47:25,120
I think, yeah, I'm 100% aligned 
with this. 

872
00:47:25,160 --> 00:47:34,160
I think that if you are happier 
with what you do to earn rewards

873
00:47:34,160 --> 00:47:37,720
in an economy, right? 
And you're proud of what you do,

874
00:47:38,680 --> 00:47:40,960
then that will show in your 
life, right? 

875
00:47:40,960 --> 00:47:44,960
Like there's so many people who 
are stuck in bullshit jobs or, 

876
00:47:45,160 --> 00:47:48,160
you know, all all these things 
or they create, you know, 

877
00:47:48,160 --> 00:47:52,560
there's people who who create 
like, you know, sucky plastic 

878
00:47:52,560 --> 00:47:55,800
toys in some sort of factory. 
Like are you, are you, like, 

879
00:47:55,800 --> 00:47:58,960
does that make you happy? 
Like, no, you know, and, and so 

880
00:47:58,960 --> 00:48:04,160
I think eventually if, and of 
course this is kind of utopia 

881
00:48:04,160 --> 00:48:07,120
for some people, but I believe 
like if, if the incentives are 

882
00:48:07,120 --> 00:48:09,720
really aligned and people are 
more happy with what they 

883
00:48:09,720 --> 00:48:14,280
contribute to society, right? 
Like, or we're going to build 

884
00:48:14,280 --> 00:48:16,920
like crazy buildings again, 
right? 

885
00:48:16,920 --> 00:48:20,080
Or, you know, like these statues
that they had in Greece, like 

886
00:48:20,080 --> 00:48:21,960
overlooking the harbors or 
whatever. 

887
00:48:21,960 --> 00:48:26,520
Like if you are, if you, if you 
can be proud of contributing to 

888
00:48:26,520 --> 00:48:30,040
that, you know, that will rub 
off on other people. 

889
00:48:30,480 --> 00:48:33,680
Because if you are sad and you 
see another person who is happy 

890
00:48:33,680 --> 00:48:36,880
and content with themselves and 
the world and whatever, you know

891
00:48:36,880 --> 00:48:39,440
that that is inspiring, 
definitely. 

892
00:48:39,520 --> 00:48:42,120
And safe. 
Yeah, that's an example. 

893
00:48:42,120 --> 00:48:43,880
We also should give. 
Yeah. 

894
00:48:44,280 --> 00:48:46,480
And, and if we look at other 
millennials, like so many 

895
00:48:46,480 --> 00:48:49,960
millennials are like kind of 
hopeless about the future. 

896
00:48:49,960 --> 00:48:53,200
And like they, they, you know, 
they feel like I won't be able 

897
00:48:53,200 --> 00:48:55,320
to have my own house and 
actually afford that. 

898
00:48:55,680 --> 00:48:57,280
Climate change is like a big 
deal. 

899
00:48:57,280 --> 00:49:00,440
And it, it's like a very gloomy 
outlook on the future. 

900
00:49:01,120 --> 00:49:04,680
And that's the message I tried 
to bring to Bitcoin, sort of 

901
00:49:04,680 --> 00:49:06,240
like through Bitcoin as well to 
people. 

902
00:49:06,240 --> 00:49:08,520
It's like, it's not necessarily 
about the money. 

903
00:49:08,520 --> 00:49:12,160
It's how you look at the future.
And like, you know, I want to 

904
00:49:12,160 --> 00:49:15,160
talk because I just, like, kind 
of painted a potential scenario 

905
00:49:15,160 --> 00:49:18,640
in which I'm not as optimistic 
about how things play out. 

906
00:49:18,880 --> 00:49:21,600
But in general, I do try to 
think of it as, like, how is 

907
00:49:21,600 --> 00:49:24,280
this going to change your life 
and the ability to take 

908
00:49:24,280 --> 00:49:26,880
ownership of your life and 
actually make something of it? 

909
00:49:27,600 --> 00:49:30,880
And like, I think good to 
mention with what you said as 

910
00:49:30,880 --> 00:49:32,720
well as, like, a lot of people 
hear that and think, like, yeah,

911
00:49:32,720 --> 00:49:34,680
but in which world is everyone 
going to be happy? 

912
00:49:35,000 --> 00:49:37,640
But you're not suggesting, you 
know, it's not a binary thing 

913
00:49:37,640 --> 00:49:40,400
where it's all or nothing. 
It's just a larger percentage of

914
00:49:40,400 --> 00:49:44,040
people will love what they do 
when the right incentives are in

915
00:49:44,040 --> 00:49:45,680
place. 
And it's still not going to be, 

916
00:49:46,040 --> 00:49:48,080
still not going to be everyone, 
it might not even be half the 

917
00:49:48,080 --> 00:49:50,880
people, but an improvement over 
where we are today. 

918
00:49:52,080 --> 00:49:58,320
But that argument is so empty. 
It's like you are a part of, you

919
00:49:58,320 --> 00:50:00,600
know, one, 1/2 of that 
conversation and you are 

920
00:50:00,600 --> 00:50:02,440
positive and you have a positive
outlook, etcetera. 

921
00:50:02,720 --> 00:50:04,680
Yeah, yeah. 
But not everyone can be happy 

922
00:50:04,680 --> 00:50:05,720
eventually. 
Yeah, OK. 

923
00:50:06,520 --> 00:50:09,800
But that is not like like no one
is going to solve your 

924
00:50:09,800 --> 00:50:13,600
happiness. 
So it, it, it's, I've become a 

925
00:50:13,600 --> 00:50:16,280
become a bit allergic for like 
those types of things. 

926
00:50:16,280 --> 00:50:19,080
It's like, and it's actually one
of the things I wanted to ask 

927
00:50:19,080 --> 00:50:22,720
you, you know, like I often 
talked with, with like guests on

928
00:50:22,720 --> 00:50:26,840
on the podcast with Tomer 
Strollight or Eric Case and how,

929
00:50:28,120 --> 00:50:30,600
you know, Bitcoin turns nihilism
into optimism. 

930
00:50:30,600 --> 00:50:33,160
I think that is exactly what we 
are talking about right now. 

931
00:50:33,240 --> 00:50:37,000
Like comments like that, they 
are like, those are nihilistic, 

932
00:50:37,080 --> 00:50:40,880
right? 
Like the we are so wired into 

933
00:50:40,880 --> 00:50:44,560
this like yeah, yeah, the 0 sum 
game, like if I win, you lose, 

934
00:50:44,560 --> 00:50:46,560
if someone wins, other people 
lose, etcetera. 

935
00:50:47,400 --> 00:50:53,400
That is what I think is the seed
of like comments like that. 

936
00:50:53,400 --> 00:50:55,240
It's. 
Like a mind virus. 

937
00:50:55,760 --> 00:50:57,960
Yeah, right. 
So but like, do you experience 

938
00:50:57,960 --> 00:51:00,920
this a lot in your social circle
like the the nihilism? 

939
00:51:01,440 --> 00:51:04,840
Yeah, you get it. 
And I, I find it super 

940
00:51:04,840 --> 00:51:07,520
interesting to deal with every 
single time because you can, 

941
00:51:07,800 --> 00:51:10,480
there are a lot of interesting 
ways in which you can disarm it.

942
00:51:11,080 --> 00:51:13,600
Because people immediately like 
they tried to put Bitcoin in a 

943
00:51:13,600 --> 00:51:17,200
certain box or they, they tried 
to introduce certain arguments 

944
00:51:17,200 --> 00:51:19,640
like yes, but I heard on the 
news that this or that or that 

945
00:51:19,640 --> 00:51:23,240
scam happened or thing. 
And there's a lot of arguments 

946
00:51:23,240 --> 00:51:26,920
that you could typically use to 
kind of like they're very 

947
00:51:26,920 --> 00:51:29,000
negative about it. 
I'm not trying to turn them into

948
00:51:29,000 --> 00:51:31,480
a Bitcoin believer or someone 
who's super positive about it. 

949
00:51:31,480 --> 00:51:35,240
But but to just neutralize that 
argument and show them that the 

950
00:51:35,240 --> 00:51:38,640
facts don't back up what they're
thinking or seeing, which for a 

951
00:51:38,640 --> 00:51:40,560
lot of people it's, it's like a 
bit of a shock. 

952
00:51:40,560 --> 00:51:42,600
Like, oh, you're not trying to 
convince me. 

953
00:51:42,600 --> 00:51:45,240
You're just telling me that what
I currently know about this 

954
00:51:45,240 --> 00:51:48,280
thing isn't right. 
And if you do that a couple 

955
00:51:48,280 --> 00:51:51,200
times over, in a lot of cases, 
people start becoming a bit more

956
00:51:51,920 --> 00:51:55,560
like mindful about what they 
think about things. 

957
00:51:55,560 --> 00:51:58,760
And that's like, I think a big 
part of the nihilism is people 

958
00:51:58,760 --> 00:52:02,640
who just repeat what they hear 
elsewhere to be able to explain 

959
00:52:02,640 --> 00:52:06,280
to others and to be interesting 
about how they see the world and

960
00:52:06,280 --> 00:52:10,080
what they know about the world. 
But like kind of like pushing 

961
00:52:10,080 --> 00:52:12,960
back against that, but not in a 
way where you tell them, I know 

962
00:52:12,960 --> 00:52:16,240
even better than you that that 
can work with some people. 

963
00:52:16,280 --> 00:52:19,560
So I, I definitely see a bunch 
of it, but I don't try to fight 

964
00:52:19,720 --> 00:52:22,760
those people and like start 
arguments and, and try to 

965
00:52:22,760 --> 00:52:24,440
convince them of something 
different. 

966
00:52:24,880 --> 00:52:27,680
I only try to show them that 
like what it is that they're 

967
00:52:27,680 --> 00:52:30,880
currently so stuck on. 
Like, you know, you can even ask

968
00:52:30,880 --> 00:52:33,240
them the question. 
Like, OK, even if you think this

969
00:52:33,240 --> 00:52:36,120
is true, even if you think all 
of all of Bitcoin is a scam or 

970
00:52:36,120 --> 00:52:40,560
whatever, Like do you then think
that over a trillion dollars in 

971
00:52:40,560 --> 00:52:42,880
value is in this and all those 
people think it's a scam? 

972
00:52:42,880 --> 00:52:46,000
Do you think all these big 
investors are involved, all 

973
00:52:46,000 --> 00:52:48,840
these big companies because 
they've all just been fooled. 

974
00:52:49,760 --> 00:52:51,160
And if that's. 
True, and you are not. 

975
00:52:51,600 --> 00:52:53,480
Yeah, and you are not. 
And if that's true, what can we 

976
00:52:53,480 --> 00:52:54,880
do about that? 
Yeah. 

977
00:52:55,960 --> 00:52:57,720
And then you. 
You get into very interesting 

978
00:52:57,720 --> 00:52:59,880
discussions with people because 
then they also don't know. 

979
00:52:59,880 --> 00:53:02,520
They're like, wait, you're 
agreeing with me? 

980
00:53:03,320 --> 00:53:05,840
Oh damn. 
Like, like now I don't know what

981
00:53:05,840 --> 00:53:08,080
I'm supposed to say. 
Like I guess we can just move on

982
00:53:08,080 --> 00:53:09,240
and talk about the weather or 
something. 

983
00:53:10,000 --> 00:53:13,520
I think that is also my main 
goal is I want to show them 

984
00:53:13,520 --> 00:53:15,360
that. 
I just ask why? 

985
00:53:15,760 --> 00:53:19,720
Why do you say this? 
Yeah, because someone blah, 

986
00:53:19,720 --> 00:53:22,240
blah, blah said I said, but did.
But did you verify it? 

987
00:53:22,240 --> 00:53:22,760
Right? 
Like did you? 

988
00:53:22,800 --> 00:53:26,560
So I'm just asking questions. 
And I think my main goal is to 

989
00:53:26,560 --> 00:53:30,120
get them to a point where they 
realize that what they think is 

990
00:53:30,120 --> 00:53:34,200
their opinion. 
It is not based on their own 

991
00:53:34,200 --> 00:53:37,200
thinking, right? 
Like it's based on on something 

992
00:53:37,200 --> 00:53:40,000
they heard. 
And then I kind of like turn it 

993
00:53:40,000 --> 00:53:42,280
around and say, like, for 
example, people that know me for

994
00:53:42,280 --> 00:53:44,560
a long time, I said like, OK, 
well, you know me for a long 

995
00:53:44,560 --> 00:53:46,640
time. 
You I think, you know, I'm a 

996
00:53:46,640 --> 00:53:50,440
diligent risk averse person and 
I'm curious. 

997
00:53:51,800 --> 00:53:56,280
And perhaps you could also be 
thinking like, why is my friend 

998
00:53:56,280 --> 00:54:00,200
91% in Bitcoin? 
You could also ask the curious 

999
00:54:00,200 --> 00:54:03,640
question instead of posing this 
opinion, you know, whatever, 

1000
00:54:03,640 --> 00:54:06,000
you're just trying to get me in 
because then it goes up, blah, 

1001
00:54:06,000 --> 00:54:07,320
blah. 
And then if I say, I don't 

1002
00:54:07,320 --> 00:54:10,680
really care, I'm good, you know,
that, that, that already. 

1003
00:54:10,680 --> 00:54:13,000
I think that's a fun game. 
And then you don't even have to 

1004
00:54:13,120 --> 00:54:16,640
talk about Bitcoin specifically.
I think it's more about kind of 

1005
00:54:16,640 --> 00:54:20,760
like showing them that how they 
are thinking is is not, not a 

1006
00:54:20,760 --> 00:54:25,040
conscious thing, right? 
And I think to what what we just

1007
00:54:25,080 --> 00:54:28,200
talked about, I just want to 
show like how it improved my 

1008
00:54:28,200 --> 00:54:31,960
life and my clarity of thinking 
and my happiness and, and all 

1009
00:54:31,960 --> 00:54:34,600
these things, right? 
And that's why I'm spending time

1010
00:54:34,600 --> 00:54:36,320
on it. 
So I'm just trying to set that 

1011
00:54:36,320 --> 00:54:42,120
example and yeah, kind of like 
challenged them to reflect on. 

1012
00:54:43,040 --> 00:54:44,760
What they are thinking? 
What they are thinking? 

1013
00:54:45,120 --> 00:54:47,600
Which for a lot of people is 
very confrontational, actually, 

1014
00:54:47,600 --> 00:54:50,720
because they like they're, you 
know, yeah, they're blaming 

1015
00:54:50,720 --> 00:54:52,080
something else. 
They're talking about how 

1016
00:54:52,120 --> 00:54:54,280
something else is messed up. 
And then you kind of like, you 

1017
00:54:54,280 --> 00:54:57,760
deflect that in a way where it 
points back to them and they're 

1018
00:54:58,040 --> 00:55:01,720
like, they will immediately get 
defensive or, like, much more 

1019
00:55:01,720 --> 00:55:04,200
pushy about it. 
And that's why it's so important

1020
00:55:04,200 --> 00:55:06,520
whenever you do this stuff. 
And I can already tell from the 

1021
00:55:06,520 --> 00:55:10,120
way you speak and behave that in
general you remain calm. 

1022
00:55:10,600 --> 00:55:13,160
And that just makes such a big 
difference because a lot of 

1023
00:55:13,160 --> 00:55:16,040
people when they're at also 
about a topic, one of them will 

1024
00:55:16,040 --> 00:55:19,000
start raising their voice or 
getting more and more upset or 

1025
00:55:19,400 --> 00:55:21,360
the arguments get more. 
But that's the signal. 

1026
00:55:21,600 --> 00:55:25,480
That's the signal that if you're
triggered, you're not with 

1027
00:55:25,480 --> 00:55:30,360
yourself, right? 
And so, yeah, 100% people, 

1028
00:55:30,520 --> 00:55:33,440
people are confronted with that.
And that is what is hard. 

1029
00:55:33,440 --> 00:55:35,400
It's not the subject that we're 
talking about. 

1030
00:55:35,400 --> 00:55:39,800
It's the fact that someone else 
can show you that you're not 

1031
00:55:39,800 --> 00:55:41,600
thinking for yourself. 
That's not nice. 

1032
00:55:41,760 --> 00:55:44,360
You know, that's not a nice 
experience. 

1033
00:55:44,360 --> 00:55:47,400
And I, I, yeah, I, I totally 
understand that. 

1034
00:55:47,640 --> 00:55:52,360
And that's also why I think it 
takes a few years, you know, 

1035
00:55:52,360 --> 00:55:55,880
with regards to, you know, what 
is money and inflation and 

1036
00:55:55,880 --> 00:55:57,760
finance. 
And then eventually Bitcoin is 

1037
00:55:57,760 --> 00:56:00,760
that like it takes a few years 
because it's not nice to realize

1038
00:56:01,200 --> 00:56:03,920
that you are participating in 
the system that you have no 

1039
00:56:03,920 --> 00:56:07,320
fucking clue about how it works.
Like that is not, it's just not 

1040
00:56:07,320 --> 00:56:09,200
nice to realize that. 
And that is OK. 

1041
00:56:09,320 --> 00:56:15,400
I think everyone in Bitcoin had 
that exact same experience, 

1042
00:56:15,400 --> 00:56:17,160
right? 
But I, I think then eventually 

1043
00:56:17,160 --> 00:56:19,200
it's about what do you do with 
it? 

1044
00:56:19,200 --> 00:56:22,960
You know, and once you 
understand that the things you 

1045
00:56:23,000 --> 00:56:27,560
thought were true were not true,
then you have a a big choice. 

1046
00:56:28,080 --> 00:56:28,960
Yeah. 
How far? 

1047
00:56:29,120 --> 00:56:30,360
How? 
Far, do you want to take that? 

1048
00:56:30,400 --> 00:56:32,240
And that then becomes a really 
interesting. 

1049
00:56:32,240 --> 00:56:35,400
Or do you want to conform to 
what it is and not pay any 

1050
00:56:35,400 --> 00:56:38,040
attention to it, you know, and 
keep complaining about what 

1051
00:56:38,040 --> 00:56:40,160
other people do, blah, blah. 
Like that is. 

1052
00:56:40,160 --> 00:56:43,040
Yeah, yeah. 
I used the word matrix a lot. 

1053
00:56:43,040 --> 00:56:44,720
But that's the stake of the 
matrix, right? 

1054
00:56:44,720 --> 00:56:46,240
Yeah. 
Like I want to keep eating the 

1055
00:56:46,240 --> 00:56:47,880
steak. 
That's fine. 

1056
00:56:47,880 --> 00:56:53,320
But that's eventually that's not
that's not a happy life. 

1057
00:56:53,480 --> 00:56:54,920
It's not a conscious life. 
Right. 

1058
00:56:55,560 --> 00:56:59,200
And this is something I've been 
noticing a lot, like, like how 

1059
00:56:59,200 --> 00:57:02,680
can you describe a bit corner? 
And like, how can you identify 

1060
00:57:02,680 --> 00:57:06,120
people who aren't bit corners 
yet, but would actually be 

1061
00:57:06,120 --> 00:57:08,360
interested in it? 
And for me, this is a very 

1062
00:57:08,360 --> 00:57:11,760
common theme is like who 
actually wants to make something

1063
00:57:11,760 --> 00:57:14,000
out of their life? 
Who wants to take ownership of 

1064
00:57:14,000 --> 00:57:17,320
their life and like make a 
better life for themselves 

1065
00:57:17,320 --> 00:57:20,040
rather than what you're saying? 
Like the constant complaining or

1066
00:57:20,200 --> 00:57:23,320
just blaming other things for 
issues but never really doing 

1067
00:57:23,320 --> 00:57:26,120
anything about it. 
And that for me is increasingly 

1068
00:57:26,120 --> 00:57:28,600
becoming a thing I'm looking at.
It's like it can be in a 

1069
00:57:28,600 --> 00:57:31,240
different area where you just 
see someone who's like, OK, 

1070
00:57:31,680 --> 00:57:35,080
instead of just following the 
system and doing what I'm 

1071
00:57:35,080 --> 00:57:37,880
expected to do and gradually 
paying more for everything in my

1072
00:57:37,880 --> 00:57:41,440
life and gradually becoming 
unhealthier with all of the crap

1073
00:57:41,440 --> 00:57:45,760
that gets thrown into your food.
Just taking steps yourself to 

1074
00:57:45,760 --> 00:57:49,360
start improving things. 
It's a very common theme within 

1075
00:57:49,360 --> 00:57:53,120
Bitcoiners as well. 
And it doesn't need to be like 

1076
00:57:53,120 --> 00:57:55,520
you take full financial 
ownership of your life and you 

1077
00:57:55,840 --> 00:57:58,560
change up everything about it so
that you're fully self sovereign

1078
00:57:58,560 --> 00:58:00,840
and everything. 
But it's kind of where it starts

1079
00:58:00,840 --> 00:58:02,680
for a lot of people. 
It's just that spark where you 

1080
00:58:02,680 --> 00:58:06,160
can tell that someone isn't just
following all of the news and 

1081
00:58:06,160 --> 00:58:08,000
accepting everything they're 
being told there. 

1082
00:58:09,640 --> 00:58:12,160
Like that's a really big shift. 
I think it's like a first thing 

1083
00:58:12,160 --> 00:58:15,480
I tried to identify and people. 
Is there an area in which they 

1084
00:58:15,480 --> 00:58:18,720
are already trying to take 
ownership of their lives, or are

1085
00:58:18,720 --> 00:58:21,120
they just following the system 
the way it's kind of, like, 

1086
00:58:21,120 --> 00:58:23,880
played out and been designed? 
Yeah. 

1087
00:58:26,360 --> 00:58:30,080
Yeah, it's, it's, it's, I love 
this topic, you know, because I 

1088
00:58:30,200 --> 00:58:35,280
think, I, I think you can find 
and research and, and understand

1089
00:58:35,280 --> 00:58:44,360
like how Bitcoin works, but 
figuring out why you should 

1090
00:58:44,360 --> 00:58:47,320
adopt it, that's way harder, you
know, like that personal 

1091
00:58:47,320 --> 00:58:50,000
journey. 
And so I also, I love more like 

1092
00:58:50,000 --> 00:58:53,640
the philosophy and like 
spiritual angle of adopting 

1093
00:58:53,640 --> 00:58:56,680
Bitcoin a lot because, well, and
I think we are, we are talking 

1094
00:58:56,680 --> 00:58:58,800
about it, right? 
Like that personal challenge, I 

1095
00:58:58,800 --> 00:59:04,040
think is the main thing that we 
probably should also talk about 

1096
00:59:04,080 --> 00:59:07,400
and show and be empathetic 
about, right? 

1097
00:59:07,400 --> 00:59:10,120
And show that we had this same 
journey. 

1098
00:59:10,120 --> 00:59:13,440
It's not looking down on people.
It's just showing like, OK, if 

1099
00:59:13,440 --> 00:59:17,240
you take that little scary leap,
it's going to free your mind. 

1100
00:59:17,240 --> 00:59:20,040
And when it's free your minds, 
you know, your life gets better.

1101
00:59:20,040 --> 00:59:23,880
Like it's yeah, it's. 
It is that simple, but it's not.

1102
00:59:24,840 --> 00:59:27,880
Easy. 
It's simple in hindsight, like 

1103
00:59:27,880 --> 00:59:30,880
once you can look back at sort 
of with clarity and understand 

1104
00:59:30,880 --> 00:59:33,240
the path that you've walked, 
then it makes sense. 

1105
00:59:33,240 --> 00:59:37,080
But when you look forward, it's 
like like people are throwing 

1106
00:59:37,160 --> 00:59:38,960
complicated technical terms at 
me. 

1107
00:59:38,960 --> 00:59:42,080
And you know, I see a lot of 
people lose their money doing 

1108
00:59:42,080 --> 00:59:44,560
all kinds of crypto stuff. 
And people don't know the 

1109
00:59:44,560 --> 00:59:46,200
difference between Bitcoin and 
crypto. 

1110
00:59:46,600 --> 00:59:50,200
So they don't understand, like 
you are way further on that path

1111
00:59:50,200 --> 00:59:52,200
and you're looking back and 
you're seeing it very different 

1112
00:59:52,200 --> 00:59:55,040
Rd. than they are. 
And as a big corner, it's so 

1113
00:59:55,040 --> 00:59:58,840
critical to be that far in the 
road and never forget what it 

1114
00:59:58,840 --> 01:00:00,840
was like standing earlier in 
that journey. 

1115
01:00:01,200 --> 01:00:03,880
And all of Bitcoiners, because 
they've heard the same stories 

1116
01:00:03,880 --> 01:00:06,480
and arguments and read all these
books and watched all these 

1117
01:00:06,480 --> 01:00:11,080
videos, they are so far along 
that they lose touch with having

1118
01:00:11,080 --> 01:00:13,440
that empathy for someone so 
early in their journey. 

1119
01:00:13,680 --> 01:00:16,640
And that's something I try to 
push myself every single day as 

1120
01:00:16,640 --> 01:00:21,000
part of my job to not lose track
of because it's so critical to 

1121
01:00:21,000 --> 01:00:24,440
be able to have a conversation 
with the average person and help

1122
01:00:24,440 --> 01:00:27,240
them through the like, get 
started on their journey or 

1123
01:00:27,480 --> 01:00:31,040
learn more about it. 
Yeah, I, I, I love that you say 

1124
01:00:31,040 --> 01:00:35,160
that because that is actually, 
you know, the example of the of 

1125
01:00:35,160 --> 01:00:36,800
the teacher guy who was in my 
DM. 

1126
01:00:36,800 --> 01:00:40,520
Like, I feel like I want to tell
him like, just don't do it. 

1127
01:00:40,520 --> 01:00:43,680
But I'm not, you know, don't go 
into the shit coins, don't do 

1128
01:00:43,680 --> 01:00:46,120
the trading and blah, blah, 
blah, because I know how it's 

1129
01:00:46,120 --> 01:00:49,360
going to end up, right. 
And it's funny that it was a 

1130
01:00:49,360 --> 01:00:51,760
good feeling that I was proven 
right that he came back to me. 

1131
01:00:51,760 --> 01:00:54,600
And I love that he came back to 
me actually, because that that 

1132
01:00:54,600 --> 01:00:58,400
that is actually really nice 
feedback. 

1133
01:00:58,520 --> 01:01:01,360
And that's a big signal, right? 
He's like, OK, you were right. 

1134
01:01:01,360 --> 01:01:04,360
But I think like this in 
general, you cannot tell this to

1135
01:01:04,360 --> 01:01:06,880
people and they will be like, 
well, OK, Brahm or some says it.

1136
01:01:06,880 --> 01:01:09,520
So then I'm not gonna I'm not 
gonna do it. 

1137
01:01:09,520 --> 01:01:11,400
Like they're gonna be like, 
yeah, F you. 

1138
01:01:11,760 --> 01:01:15,800
I'm gonna do this anyway. 
Like it it it is interesting 

1139
01:01:15,800 --> 01:01:17,720
that it just really works like 
that. 

1140
01:01:17,720 --> 01:01:21,040
But I find it hard sometimes, 
especially with people that I 

1141
01:01:21,440 --> 01:01:26,280
know and like or love to be 
like, yeah, you know, yeah, 

1142
01:01:26,280 --> 01:01:27,680
sorry, but you have to figure it
out. 

1143
01:01:27,680 --> 01:01:31,120
So, you know, I'm open to 
questions, but I know I cannot, 

1144
01:01:31,360 --> 01:01:34,800
I, I cannot change your mind. 
So yeah, just if you're curious 

1145
01:01:34,800 --> 01:01:37,400
enough, try to figure it out. 
Let me know if you have 

1146
01:01:37,400 --> 01:01:39,320
questions. 
And then I'm happy to spend 

1147
01:01:39,880 --> 01:01:42,560
hours to answer the questions. 
Right. 

1148
01:01:42,600 --> 01:01:45,600
But just that first part is, 
yeah, I mean, like that. 

1149
01:01:45,640 --> 01:01:47,200
Yeah. 
It's just, it's just part of it.

1150
01:01:47,720 --> 01:01:51,080
So we talked a bit about, you 
know, like also, you know, 

1151
01:01:51,080 --> 01:01:55,440
moving from 1 system to another.
I kind of see Bitcoin not as 

1152
01:01:56,080 --> 01:02:00,400
investing with risk, but I see 
it as saving in, right. 

1153
01:02:00,400 --> 01:02:06,640
So you have a job or a venture, 
you earn a reward for, for your 

1154
01:02:06,640 --> 01:02:09,640
output. 
You can save that in Fiat money 

1155
01:02:09,640 --> 01:02:13,400
or you can save that in Bitcoin.
I, I, I see the Fiat money as 

1156
01:02:13,400 --> 01:02:16,280
risky and I'm saving in into 
Bitcoin. 

1157
01:02:17,560 --> 01:02:21,840
How has this changed for you? 
Like how, how did you first few 

1158
01:02:22,080 --> 01:02:25,560
risk or did you even perceive 
risk? 

1159
01:02:27,400 --> 01:02:30,640
Like what is your approach to 
risk with with regards to to 

1160
01:02:31,120 --> 01:02:35,000
financial things? 
Well, when I first got into 

1161
01:02:35,000 --> 01:02:39,960
Bitcoin, I was AI was just kind 
of like starting my studies and 

1162
01:02:40,080 --> 01:02:42,240
at the like as a student, you 
don't really have a lot of 

1163
01:02:42,240 --> 01:02:44,960
money. 
And you also think from like, I 

1164
01:02:44,960 --> 01:02:48,480
was very much centered on like I
have certain skills, I'm going 

1165
01:02:48,480 --> 01:02:52,320
to be expanding those skills a 
lot over the next while. 

1166
01:02:53,280 --> 01:02:54,800
And I don't have much money 
anyway. 

1167
01:02:54,800 --> 01:02:58,160
So even if I lose the money that
I have at this point, then I'll 

1168
01:02:58,360 --> 01:03:01,280
like, I'm privileged enough, 
fortunately that that's not 

1169
01:03:01,280 --> 01:03:03,680
going to be a problem for me. 
And I'll be able to build that 

1170
01:03:03,680 --> 01:03:07,720
up and just like go be a waiter 
or wash dishes or whatever it is

1171
01:03:07,720 --> 01:03:09,680
I need to do to, to make enough 
money. 

1172
01:03:09,680 --> 01:03:12,920
Which Fast forward to now, if I 
was in a position, again, I 

1173
01:03:12,920 --> 01:03:15,880
don't know if that would be 
enough to pay for a life living 

1174
01:03:15,880 --> 01:03:18,560
in the country that I live in 
because it's just freaking 

1175
01:03:18,560 --> 01:03:21,640
expensive now. 
But back then, like I was 

1176
01:03:22,080 --> 01:03:24,920
fortunate enough to not have to 
worry as much about risk. 

1177
01:03:25,440 --> 01:03:28,240
But at the same time, I was 
looking at like the way I've 

1178
01:03:28,240 --> 01:03:30,160
kind of always looked at the 
financial system. 

1179
01:03:30,160 --> 01:03:34,960
And a Bitcoin is like, if I put 
€10,000 or dollars or whatever 

1180
01:03:34,960 --> 01:03:39,600
currency in the bank, like how 
much faith do I have that in 10 

1181
01:03:39,600 --> 01:03:42,120
years from now, it's going to be
there and it's still going to 

1182
01:03:42,120 --> 01:03:45,800
have as much purchasing power. 
Versus if I put it into Bitcoin,

1183
01:03:45,800 --> 01:03:49,360
how much faith do I have that I 
will still own that amount of 

1184
01:03:49,360 --> 01:03:54,440
Bitcoin in that period of time 
and that it will be worth the 

1185
01:03:54,440 --> 01:03:56,840
same or less or more than it is 
now. 

1186
01:03:57,080 --> 01:03:59,160
And when you weigh those two 
things against each other and 

1187
01:03:59,160 --> 01:04:01,080
you know, well, the Fiat 
currency in the bank will 

1188
01:04:01,080 --> 01:04:04,760
definitely devalue. 
There is no scenario I can 

1189
01:04:04,960 --> 01:04:08,320
imagine in which it will become 
worth more than it is now. 

1190
01:04:09,040 --> 01:04:13,440
So knowing that it like you're, 
you can already kind of like 

1191
01:04:13,440 --> 01:04:15,880
subtract a big part of that 
value and it's like that money 

1192
01:04:15,880 --> 01:04:18,640
is gone anyway. 
So if if for example, you have 

1193
01:04:18,640 --> 01:04:22,640
€10,000 and you know that in 10 
years from now, like it will 

1194
01:04:22,640 --> 01:04:25,600
lose 3000 of its value or 
whatever, then you can already 

1195
01:04:25,600 --> 01:04:29,520
say well, like semi risk free, 
kind of like a stupid example, 

1196
01:04:29,520 --> 01:04:31,400
but you could just put that 
money into Bitcoin already 

1197
01:04:31,400 --> 01:04:34,920
because you lost it anyway. 
If your if your alternative plan

1198
01:04:34,920 --> 01:04:37,520
is to put it in the back and 
then a lot of people will say, 

1199
01:04:37,520 --> 01:04:39,920
yeah, but you shouldn't think 
that way because you know, you 

1200
01:04:39,920 --> 01:04:42,440
can invest it in stocks and 
assets and do all kinds of 

1201
01:04:42,440 --> 01:04:45,840
things with it. 
But the average person is not a 

1202
01:04:45,960 --> 01:04:49,000
like a an investor. 
They're not ACFO in their 

1203
01:04:49,000 --> 01:04:51,440
personal life. 
So I think your metaphor of like

1204
01:04:51,440 --> 01:04:54,960
you're just saving in this is 
much more sensible than trying 

1205
01:04:54,960 --> 01:04:58,760
to turn people into investors, 
which a lot of people they don't

1206
01:04:58,760 --> 01:05:01,320
really want to be. 
They get forced into being more 

1207
01:05:01,320 --> 01:05:03,120
of an investor. 
And I think it's really 

1208
01:05:03,120 --> 01:05:06,920
interesting in like Peter 
McCormack did a couple of 

1209
01:05:08,440 --> 01:05:11,360
documentaries in countries like 
Lebanon and Argentina. 

1210
01:05:11,760 --> 01:05:13,800
And when you hear from the 
people there, they're like, 

1211
01:05:13,800 --> 01:05:17,240
everyone here is forced to be a 
financial expert, like a CFO 

1212
01:05:17,240 --> 01:05:20,280
over their own lives. 
Because if you're not like, 

1213
01:05:20,880 --> 01:05:23,520
like, you just can't live. 
You have to spend tons of time 

1214
01:05:23,520 --> 01:05:27,120
understanding like what are the 
market rates between your local 

1215
01:05:27,120 --> 01:05:28,880
currency and a dollar, for 
example. 

1216
01:05:28,880 --> 01:05:31,320
And like, how can I protect my 
purchasing power? 

1217
01:05:31,600 --> 01:05:34,480
So people get forced into that 
direction even if they don't 

1218
01:05:34,480 --> 01:05:37,600
want to be. 
And that I think is like, we're 

1219
01:05:37,600 --> 01:05:40,240
still like in first world 
countries, we're less pressured 

1220
01:05:40,240 --> 01:05:41,680
that way. 
But when I look at the US, for 

1221
01:05:41,680 --> 01:05:45,000
example, people that are much 
more financially literate 

1222
01:05:45,200 --> 01:05:48,120
because they kind of have to be 
like it's, it's hard for a lot 

1223
01:05:48,120 --> 01:05:50,200
of people there. 
A lot of people live paycheck to

1224
01:05:50,200 --> 01:05:52,680
paycheck, which is also the case
in Europe. 

1225
01:05:52,680 --> 01:05:55,360
But I think potentially, I don't
know the numbers, but it might 

1226
01:05:55,360 --> 01:05:58,040
be a bit less. 
But in the US, lots of people 

1227
01:05:58,040 --> 01:06:00,400
live paycheck to paycheck. 
So they have to be super 

1228
01:06:00,760 --> 01:06:04,400
conscious about like where all 
the money is going and how it is

1229
01:06:04,400 --> 01:06:08,120
that they're saving it. 
So I, I, I like, I think about 

1230
01:06:08,120 --> 01:06:11,080
this a lot. 
Like for me personally, I'm, you

1231
01:06:11,080 --> 01:06:15,400
know, I'm fortunate enough to 
not think of risk as like this 

1232
01:06:15,400 --> 01:06:19,680
is like existential. 
If I don't protect my money and 

1233
01:06:19,680 --> 01:06:22,520
I lose this money, then I'm 
going to be in big trouble. 

1234
01:06:22,520 --> 01:06:25,000
I won't be able to afford my 
bills and I'm done for. 

1235
01:06:25,800 --> 01:06:28,240
But for a lot of people, that's 
the kind of thinking that they 

1236
01:06:28,240 --> 01:06:30,360
need to have. 
So for them, investing in 

1237
01:06:30,360 --> 01:06:34,000
something that the entire world 
tells them is risky, like 

1238
01:06:34,000 --> 01:06:37,080
Bitcoin, it's just too big of a 
leap. 

1239
01:06:37,200 --> 01:06:38,640
If they're in that kind of 
position. 

1240
01:06:39,720 --> 01:06:41,720
If you're not in that kind of 
position and you have some 

1241
01:06:41,720 --> 01:06:45,360
savings, then you can make the, 
you know, the relatively easy 

1242
01:06:45,360 --> 01:06:49,240
thought experiment of if I just 
keep it in the bank, then I know

1243
01:06:49,240 --> 01:06:50,760
it's definitely going to lose 
its money. 

1244
01:06:51,200 --> 01:06:54,200
And that's the way I view 
Bitcoin, similar to you, is it 

1245
01:06:54,200 --> 01:06:56,520
just doesn't seem like a great 
plan to keep it there. 

1246
01:06:57,320 --> 01:07:00,360
So what else can I do then? 
And it doesn't have to be OK, 

1247
01:07:00,360 --> 01:07:02,000
that means I'll put everything 
in Bitcoin. 

1248
01:07:03,200 --> 01:07:05,840
But it's just that that one 
realization that keeping it in 

1249
01:07:05,840 --> 01:07:08,880
the bank and doing nothing with 
it, that is definitely a bad 

1250
01:07:08,880 --> 01:07:10,520
plan. 
That's where I tend to start. 

1251
01:07:11,560 --> 01:07:15,840
Well, and, and people then think
I need to invest. 

1252
01:07:15,920 --> 01:07:18,360
No, the problem is you cannot 
save anymore. 

1253
01:07:18,360 --> 01:07:21,800
So you first save and then 
invest what, what you can 

1254
01:07:21,800 --> 01:07:25,400
actually lose, right? 
And I had Peter Dunworth on the 

1255
01:07:25,400 --> 01:07:29,160
on the podcast, I think second 
episode, and he said, you know, 

1256
01:07:29,160 --> 01:07:33,160
my full time job is to figure 
out what people should be doing 

1257
01:07:33,160 --> 01:07:35,560
with their money, right? 
As a, as a financial advisor, 

1258
01:07:35,560 --> 01:07:39,880
he's like, that's my job. 
I spend the entire day each day 

1259
01:07:40,040 --> 01:07:43,720
on this, right? 
And the fact that people are 

1260
01:07:43,720 --> 01:07:48,720
forced to emulate that job 
besides their normal job when 

1261
01:07:48,720 --> 01:07:50,920
they get home, like that is the 
actual problem. 

1262
01:07:50,920 --> 01:07:54,040
Like you have a job, but you 
don't know you have it. 

1263
01:07:54,560 --> 01:07:58,680
You know, when you come home 
from taking risk by having a 

1264
01:07:58,960 --> 01:08:02,040
certain type of job or a certain
type of venture, like that is 

1265
01:08:02,040 --> 01:08:06,800
risk because you're spending 
your, your time and energy on, 

1266
01:08:07,440 --> 01:08:10,080
you know, working for a certain 
company that someone else 

1267
01:08:10,080 --> 01:08:13,280
controls or you try your own 
company in a certain market, 

1268
01:08:13,280 --> 01:08:15,400
right? 
And so you were taking risk 

1269
01:08:15,400 --> 01:08:17,080
anyway. 
But then when you get home, 

1270
01:08:17,080 --> 01:08:18,760
you're forced to take more risk,
right? 

1271
01:08:18,760 --> 01:08:23,520
And I think that is where that 
that pressure to invest comes 

1272
01:08:23,520 --> 01:08:24,760
from. 
People think they have to 

1273
01:08:24,760 --> 01:08:31,040
invest, but they don't 
understand that they are they, 

1274
01:08:31,040 --> 01:08:34,000
they think that's because they 
cannot save in the currency 

1275
01:08:34,000 --> 01:08:35,319
that, that they're paid in, 
right. 

1276
01:08:35,680 --> 01:08:38,760
But I, I heard you talk before 
about like scams and stuff. 

1277
01:08:39,120 --> 01:08:42,040
So how do you, you know, in your
opinion, like how does that 

1278
01:08:42,040 --> 01:08:47,120
pressure to invest and the 
threat of scams like impact our,

1279
01:08:48,600 --> 01:08:52,520
I would say generation, you 
know, our outlook on financial 

1280
01:08:52,520 --> 01:08:55,439
stability and the future does 
is, is that where the nihilism 

1281
01:08:55,439 --> 01:08:59,279
comes from, you think? 
I think like those people prey 

1282
01:08:59,279 --> 01:09:02,120
on the nihilism because you see 
a lot of people that like this 

1283
01:09:02,120 --> 01:09:05,560
is part of why crypto in general
is so big because people feel 

1284
01:09:05,560 --> 01:09:08,279
like well I missed out on 
Bitcoin so now I need to find a 

1285
01:09:08,279 --> 01:09:12,120
new way to 100 X my money. 
And even if historically like 

1286
01:09:12,120 --> 01:09:15,760
Bitcoin would return them like 
6070% per year or something, 

1287
01:09:15,800 --> 01:09:20,439
that's not enough because they 
want to turn their 1000 or 5000 

1288
01:09:20,439 --> 01:09:25,520
or 20,000 or whatever it is into
a 100X or it's for them, it's 

1289
01:09:25,520 --> 01:09:27,399
like just not worth playing 
around with. 

1290
01:09:28,040 --> 01:09:30,640
And they don't have, in some 
ways, they don't have the 

1291
01:09:30,640 --> 01:09:33,760
patience to build something up 
over the long run or they don't 

1292
01:09:33,760 --> 01:09:36,720
have the self-confidence or 
belief that they're able to get 

1293
01:09:36,720 --> 01:09:40,640
to a point where they can live a
more comfortable life and not 

1294
01:09:40,640 --> 01:09:43,000
have to work stress and worry 
about the money as much. 

1295
01:09:43,600 --> 01:09:47,120
So then that feeds into all of 
these people that promised them 

1296
01:09:47,120 --> 01:09:49,800
the next big thing that will 
make them a ton of money. 

1297
01:09:50,319 --> 01:09:52,640
And people think like, well, 
I'll never be able to afford a 

1298
01:09:52,640 --> 01:09:55,120
house anyway. 
I'll never be able to do this or

1299
01:09:55,120 --> 01:09:57,560
that or that. 
So I might as well just take the

1300
01:09:57,560 --> 01:10:00,200
risk with the little money that 
I have in the hopes that it's 

1301
01:10:00,200 --> 01:10:04,880
going to make me a whole lot. 
And that is like the true shame.

1302
01:10:04,880 --> 01:10:07,760
Like, I think like the true pity
that I see with, with our 

1303
01:10:07,760 --> 01:10:10,520
generation is that you have a 
lot of people who kind of lose 

1304
01:10:10,520 --> 01:10:15,560
hope in the long run and start 
taking stupid risks and lose 

1305
01:10:15,560 --> 01:10:17,800
their money that way. 
And then just like a lump 

1306
01:10:17,800 --> 01:10:21,840
Bitcoin in with all of crypto 
and blame all of that stuff. 

1307
01:10:22,200 --> 01:10:26,160
So that's yeah, it's, it's 
really sad to see, I think, and 

1308
01:10:26,160 --> 01:10:29,000
I really hope that more and more
of those people will start 

1309
01:10:29,000 --> 01:10:32,120
realizing like this is to your 
point earlier, like go ahead and

1310
01:10:32,120 --> 01:10:34,440
trade and you'll see that it's 
just not really going to work 

1311
01:10:34,440 --> 01:10:37,760
hard for the like 90% plus of 
the people. 

1312
01:10:38,560 --> 01:10:42,600
Yeah, it would be nicer if we 
can educate people before they 

1313
01:10:42,640 --> 01:10:46,440
pay their fee to the scammers. 
Very difficult. 

1314
01:10:46,760 --> 01:10:48,600
Yeah, it is. 
Yeah, it really. 

1315
01:10:48,600 --> 01:10:51,520
Is the high time preference that
safety no Moose talks about, 

1316
01:10:51,520 --> 01:10:53,600
right? 
Like discounting the future even

1317
01:10:53,600 --> 01:10:56,800
more, right? 
The future is uncertain anyway, 

1318
01:10:57,280 --> 01:11:02,520
but you can you know, your mind 
can help you make it even more 

1319
01:11:02,520 --> 01:11:06,080
uncertain. 
And therefore, you know, you're 

1320
01:11:06,080 --> 01:11:10,280
you're gonna gamble now because 
yeah, if you don't have any 

1321
01:11:10,280 --> 01:11:12,800
hope, then, you know, why 
wouldn't you? 

1322
01:11:12,840 --> 01:11:15,200
Why wouldn't you gamble? 
You know, and therefore I think 

1323
01:11:15,200 --> 01:11:17,840
like for me, like that is a very
big topic. 

1324
01:11:17,840 --> 01:11:20,720
Why I think this is a spiritual 
battle. 

1325
01:11:21,720 --> 01:11:23,560
I'm crazy that your spirit is 
crushed. 

1326
01:11:23,640 --> 01:11:25,280
Your spirit towards the future 
is crushed. 

1327
01:11:25,560 --> 01:11:28,400
And especially as a millennial, 
if you wanna, you know, build a 

1328
01:11:28,400 --> 01:11:34,000
family or some people decide not
not to build a family because of

1329
01:11:34,000 --> 01:11:37,080
that, you know, wow. 
Because they can't afford it or 

1330
01:11:37,120 --> 01:11:40,200
because they they think like I 
already live a bad life, then my

1331
01:11:40,200 --> 01:11:41,920
kids can. 
My kids going to be off even 

1332
01:11:41,920 --> 01:11:45,000
worse, Yeah. 
But then that realization, yeah,

1333
01:11:45,000 --> 01:11:47,360
I I shared this before too. 
I sometimes say that because 

1334
01:11:47,360 --> 01:11:51,640
for, you know, for people that 
that listen to to most episodes.

1335
01:11:51,640 --> 01:11:56,320
But I had a conversation with 
the guy CTO of a company think a

1336
01:11:56,320 --> 01:11:59,480
bit older. 
I think he's super intelligent. 

1337
01:11:59,720 --> 01:12:02,240
He understood everything about 
the bad money. 

1338
01:12:02,240 --> 01:12:04,160
He stood, understood everything 
about Bitcoin. 

1339
01:12:04,600 --> 01:12:09,040
He didn't have any Bitcoin. 
He said like, yeah, I just don't

1340
01:12:09,040 --> 01:12:13,080
think, you know, I don't, I 
don't trust that the incentives 

1341
01:12:13,080 --> 01:12:14,800
will be aligned. 
I still think people are going 

1342
01:12:14,800 --> 01:12:16,160
to misuse it, etcetera, blah, 
blah. 

1343
01:12:16,640 --> 01:12:19,520
So eventually, and so this was a
real life conversation. 

1344
01:12:19,520 --> 01:12:22,760
We were sitting at the table and
I asked him like, well, don't 

1345
01:12:22,760 --> 01:12:25,120
you have kids? 
And he's like, no, no, but 

1346
01:12:25,120 --> 01:12:27,640
that's also the reason. 
And then I thought like, wow, 

1347
01:12:27,640 --> 01:12:29,960
you know, this was the first 
experience for me actually 

1348
01:12:29,960 --> 01:12:32,760
having that conversation with 
someone in real life, not 

1349
01:12:32,760 --> 01:12:35,360
reading about it or seeing some 
TikTok or whatever. 

1350
01:12:35,560 --> 01:12:40,480
I'd like an actual conversation 
with someone who I regard as an 

1351
01:12:40,480 --> 01:12:46,560
intelligent, curious person. 
And that was really like, what 

1352
01:12:46,560 --> 01:12:50,040
he decided. 
And that was very saddening to 

1353
01:12:50,400 --> 01:12:52,520
experience, I'd say, like, in 
that conversation. 

1354
01:12:52,520 --> 01:12:54,920
And then I also asked him like, 
OK, but with all due respect, 

1355
01:12:54,920 --> 01:12:59,040
like, so you just gave up. 
He's like, yeah, I'm like, what?

1356
01:12:59,040 --> 01:13:00,560
That's. 
Crazy. 

1357
01:13:01,080 --> 01:13:05,480
It's so far away from how I 
feel, you know, but it's also 

1358
01:13:05,480 --> 01:13:09,920
real, you know, it's his, it's 
his experience, you know, his, 

1359
01:13:10,440 --> 01:13:12,680
his, oh, his map of the world, 
right. 

1360
01:13:12,680 --> 01:13:16,200
And and how he fused it and I 
don't know man. 

1361
01:13:16,200 --> 01:13:18,680
Like, I don't know. 
I find that so saddening you. 

1362
01:13:18,760 --> 01:13:20,720
Know. 
Even when you're already there, 

1363
01:13:20,760 --> 01:13:23,000
when you see the problem, you 
see a possible solution and you 

1364
01:13:23,000 --> 01:13:27,720
still don't have enough. 
Yeah, I think it is hope, right?

1365
01:13:27,880 --> 01:13:30,000
I think we talked about 
challenges, you know, that 

1366
01:13:30,000 --> 01:13:32,400
Bitcoin could face and with 
people that are going to be in 

1367
01:13:32,400 --> 01:13:36,760
charge of blah blah. 
But we cannot predict the future

1368
01:13:36,760 --> 01:13:38,480
100%. 
So you always have to have a 

1369
01:13:38,480 --> 01:13:42,680
little hope that, you know, 
eventually we will figure it 

1370
01:13:42,680 --> 01:13:44,680
out. 
And if not, then not, you know, 

1371
01:13:44,680 --> 01:13:47,520
like you cannot change that 
anyway, right? 

1372
01:13:47,520 --> 01:13:49,720
So you better try. 
This is our best shot man. 

1373
01:13:50,280 --> 01:13:52,360
This is what I think. 
I think so, yeah. 

1374
01:13:52,800 --> 01:13:55,480
But also the fact is something I
would think about this week, 

1375
01:13:55,480 --> 01:13:59,560
like the fact that we are living
in this moment in time is 

1376
01:13:59,840 --> 01:14:03,800
absolutely wild. 
That is really hard to realize, 

1377
01:14:04,080 --> 01:14:07,680
right? 
The the the falling of a certain

1378
01:14:07,680 --> 01:14:13,160
empire, the monetization of an 
asset that that no one has ever 

1379
01:14:13,160 --> 01:14:18,720
experienced before such such a 
huge discovery, right? 

1380
01:14:18,720 --> 01:14:22,760
And and changes also in the 
world that like everything we 

1381
01:14:22,760 --> 01:14:27,040
look at to to create like a 
benchmark for our perspective 

1382
01:14:27,040 --> 01:14:32,560
right now is so far away in the 
future or in the past that it 

1383
01:14:32,560 --> 01:14:34,920
doesn't feel real. 
I would say, right, like it 

1384
01:14:34,920 --> 01:14:39,760
doesn't feel real that that we 
could also live in this moment 

1385
01:14:39,760 --> 01:14:41,480
in time. 
But then like last week, someone

1386
01:14:41,480 --> 01:14:44,640
told me like there will there 
were there were people living in

1387
01:14:44,640 --> 01:14:47,360
the Great Depression, there were
people living during the the 

1388
01:14:47,360 --> 01:14:51,200
first and Second World War, like
just like us, that the same same

1389
01:14:51,200 --> 01:14:54,640
type of people with the same 
dreams and hopes and feelings 

1390
01:14:54,640 --> 01:14:56,120
and all and all these things, 
right. 

1391
01:14:57,240 --> 01:15:00,000
And that's just fascinating to 
think about that, that. 

1392
01:15:00,120 --> 01:15:01,160
Yeah. 
In some way. 

1393
01:15:02,360 --> 01:15:04,040
Yeah. 
Well, not in some way, but we 

1394
01:15:04,040 --> 01:15:07,160
are here at this time when that 
stuff is happening, right? 

1395
01:15:07,280 --> 01:15:11,160
This is not the 70s and not the 
early 80s or the 60s like it's 

1396
01:15:12,000 --> 01:15:13,680
it's a. 
Distinct kind of time period. 

1397
01:15:13,800 --> 01:15:15,360
Exactly. 
It's very, very different, 

1398
01:15:15,360 --> 01:15:19,280
right? 
And, and yeah, I don't know, I 

1399
01:15:19,280 --> 01:15:21,000
feel optimistic about that 
actually. 

1400
01:15:21,000 --> 01:15:25,800
Like it's I, I think if you can 
really see the problems that are

1401
01:15:25,800 --> 01:15:29,160
there and you feel that that you
can contribute to the solution 

1402
01:15:29,160 --> 01:15:31,960
in some way, that is a really 
good feeling. 

1403
01:15:33,040 --> 01:15:34,720
I think it's some. 
Purpose. 

1404
01:15:35,400 --> 01:15:38,440
And I, and I hope in general 
like to, to some of my points 

1405
01:15:38,440 --> 01:15:41,360
earlier, like a lot of 
Bitcoiners take this for granted

1406
01:15:41,360 --> 01:15:43,120
and they feel like they're 
spectators now. 

1407
01:15:43,520 --> 01:15:46,320
But you're not a spectator, 
you're a participant, right? 

1408
01:15:46,320 --> 01:15:48,360
Like you can make stuff happen 
too. 

1409
01:15:48,800 --> 01:15:51,840
And a lot of people don't know 
like where to start or how to do

1410
01:15:51,840 --> 01:15:54,400
that. 
Doesn't matter, I'd say. 

1411
01:15:54,600 --> 01:15:57,320
What you. 
Do, but like, just figure it 

1412
01:15:57,320 --> 01:15:57,880
out. 
Yeah. 

1413
01:15:58,200 --> 01:16:01,720
Even if it's like helping 
people, just translate whatever 

1414
01:16:02,280 --> 01:16:06,120
book or book or content or 
website or app or thing like 

1415
01:16:06,120 --> 01:16:08,160
just start there, get involved 
with others. 

1416
01:16:08,760 --> 01:16:12,920
Yeah, I, I don't like the it's 
inevitable meme. 

1417
01:16:13,280 --> 01:16:18,600
I, I don't, I, I, I think no, I 
think we are underestimating the

1418
01:16:18,600 --> 01:16:21,560
power that we have as bitcoiners
already. 

1419
01:16:22,040 --> 01:16:26,360
You see it, the old presidential
election thing, like these 

1420
01:16:26,360 --> 01:16:29,560
politicians do not care about 
crypto and Bitcoin, but they're 

1421
01:16:29,560 --> 01:16:32,520
in some way they are 
incentivized to say like I'm 

1422
01:16:32,520 --> 01:16:36,440
pro, I'm pro this and that. 
They, they have no clue. 

1423
01:16:36,440 --> 01:16:39,600
They don't know they couldn't. 
Do you think Trump can use a 

1424
01:16:39,600 --> 01:16:42,120
browser? 
I have no idea. 

1425
01:16:42,120 --> 01:16:44,920
I never think about it. 
Now, But I mean like, you know, 

1426
01:16:44,920 --> 01:16:50,520
like, yeah, we we are, we are so
far ahead of all these people 

1427
01:16:50,520 --> 01:16:53,280
that are in charge. 
And I think that is what we 

1428
01:16:53,280 --> 01:16:56,640
should actually be aware of, 
like the now the, the woman I 

1429
01:16:56,640 --> 01:16:58,760
mentioned, Maya from Suriname, 
she's going to run in the 

1430
01:16:58,760 --> 01:17:01,280
presidential election in May 
next year. 

1431
01:17:01,600 --> 01:17:07,520
And I told her you, you should 
understand that there's like 50 

1432
01:17:07,520 --> 01:17:11,160
million people on the Internet 
that could amplify your message.

1433
01:17:12,080 --> 01:17:13,400
And that is why you're going to 
win. 

1434
01:17:13,640 --> 01:17:15,920
They, they, they don't have to 
be from Suriname. 

1435
01:17:16,600 --> 01:17:22,360
You know, like Bitcoiners online
are a huge, huge, huge group, 

1436
01:17:23,360 --> 01:17:28,120
super powerful in terms of 
narrative messaging and, and, 

1437
01:17:28,120 --> 01:17:31,960
and all these things right. 
And so I think if more people 

1438
01:17:31,960 --> 01:17:37,400
realize that we can do crazy, 
crazy stuff because we can 

1439
01:17:37,400 --> 01:17:40,600
support the people that we align
with all over the world, 

1440
01:17:40,720 --> 01:17:45,920
wherever they are, you know, and
I think that is a very I I love 

1441
01:17:45,920 --> 01:17:49,440
that as that's my main hopeful 
kind of like thought also 

1442
01:17:49,440 --> 01:17:51,200
currently, like we are there 
already. 

1443
01:17:51,320 --> 01:17:53,360
We are there. 
You can travel to any part in 

1444
01:17:53,360 --> 01:17:55,440
the world, put on Twitter. 
Are there Bitcoiners? 

1445
01:17:55,480 --> 01:17:57,240
Can we hang out? 
Yeah, like anywhere. 

1446
01:17:58,120 --> 01:18:02,360
We are there already, right. 
And yeah, well, anyway, like 

1447
01:18:02,360 --> 01:18:04,440
that's, that's fascinating. 
I love that we are there. 

1448
01:18:06,560 --> 01:18:07,920
I think you have like 10 
minutes. 

1449
01:18:09,640 --> 01:18:15,040
OK, I'm thinking about what what
question I wanted to ask you, 

1450
01:18:15,040 --> 01:18:19,040
but I, I think I want to ask you
like what is the main thing 

1451
01:18:19,040 --> 01:18:23,560
people need to unlearn before 
they can understand Bitcoin? 

1452
01:18:26,880 --> 01:18:35,610
I think the, it's a really good 
question because I like, I'm, 

1453
01:18:35,610 --> 01:18:37,610
I'm trying to think of like, 
what did I unlearn? 

1454
01:18:38,170 --> 01:18:39,890
But that's going to be different
for everyone. 

1455
01:18:41,890 --> 01:18:45,400
I think a lot of people who 
currently are in bit corners, 

1456
01:18:45,400 --> 01:18:48,560
what they'll need to unlearn is 
like, it really just starts in a

1457
01:18:48,560 --> 01:18:54,040
way with information where they 
feel like, like if they get 

1458
01:18:54,040 --> 01:18:57,200
told, like if you vote for this 
other party, if you vote for 

1459
01:18:57,200 --> 01:19:00,160
this other politician, they're 
going to make life better. 

1460
01:19:00,160 --> 01:19:01,600
They're going to make the system
better. 

1461
01:19:02,080 --> 01:19:05,720
And I think the unlearning that 
people need to do is assuming 

1462
01:19:06,160 --> 01:19:09,760
that someone else is going to 
make their life better and they 

1463
01:19:09,760 --> 01:19:12,120
just vote for that. 
And that person makes the change

1464
01:19:12,120 --> 01:19:15,560
happen. 
Like sort of like if you'd point

1465
01:19:15,560 --> 01:19:18,080
me to the critical thing, like 
if you can make people unlearn 

1466
01:19:18,080 --> 01:19:21,680
one thing and that will get the 
most Bitcoin adoption, that's 

1467
01:19:21,680 --> 01:19:24,840
the thing I'd point at like just
making more people realize that 

1468
01:19:24,840 --> 01:19:28,600
nobody is going to like 
materially in the long run, make

1469
01:19:28,600 --> 01:19:32,120
your life way better, better 
than you can do it yourself. 

1470
01:19:32,800 --> 01:19:35,480
So if people were to unlearn 
that part, then they'll 

1471
01:19:35,640 --> 01:19:38,520
eventually kind of like, I think
a lot of them will eventually 

1472
01:19:38,520 --> 01:19:41,160
end up a Bitcoin because they'll
realize, OK, I need to do it 

1473
01:19:41,160 --> 01:19:43,360
myself. 
And this is a really powerful 

1474
01:19:43,360 --> 01:19:47,760
tool to be able to do that. 
Yeah, couldn't agree more. 

1475
01:19:47,960 --> 01:19:52,960
It's the and it sounds. 
So how do you say it? 

1476
01:19:53,000 --> 01:19:55,800
Like it's arrogant sometimes or 
corny. 

1477
01:19:55,800 --> 01:19:57,880
Like, yeah, you have to start 
thinking for yourself. 

1478
01:19:57,880 --> 01:19:59,520
Like, dude, what? 
What do you mean? 

1479
01:19:59,520 --> 01:20:03,520
But like, yeah, like really, you
know, like, think, think about 

1480
01:20:03,520 --> 01:20:05,280
that. 
And and that is that taking that

1481
01:20:05,280 --> 01:20:07,280
responsibility. 
Like no one is coming to save 

1482
01:20:07,280 --> 01:20:10,800
you in a good way. 
Like it's in a, It's in a good 

1483
01:20:10,800 --> 01:20:13,160
way like that. 
Yes, that person that you're 

1484
01:20:13,160 --> 01:20:17,560
voting for does not have the 
same interest in your specific 

1485
01:20:17,560 --> 01:20:19,480
individual life that you have, 
right? 

1486
01:20:19,480 --> 01:20:23,520
So how can that other person 
make your life better? 

1487
01:20:23,600 --> 01:20:25,240
You know? 
And by the way, in general, I 

1488
01:20:25,240 --> 01:20:28,880
wanted to say this before, but 
this is AI think this is a way 

1489
01:20:28,880 --> 01:20:32,360
bigger thing in Western 
countries as opposed to, I don't

1490
01:20:33,360 --> 01:20:37,320
know, third world ish countries.
Like their people already have 

1491
01:20:37,320 --> 01:20:42,160
that entire mentality. 
Very sad because they are forced

1492
01:20:42,160 --> 01:20:47,840
by you know, you know how their 
societies are, you know, 

1493
01:20:47,840 --> 01:20:52,640
maintained and also abused by 
our societies right still. 

1494
01:20:53,960 --> 01:20:58,520
But but they have a way more 
clear perspective to life. 

1495
01:20:59,800 --> 01:21:01,240
Literally no one is coming to 
save you. 

1496
01:21:01,240 --> 01:21:05,680
You are instantly humbled and we
still, and, and it's also how we

1497
01:21:05,680 --> 01:21:09,400
grew up here is, yeah, other 
people take care of me and my 

1498
01:21:09,840 --> 01:21:11,320
surroundings and all these 
things. 

1499
01:21:11,320 --> 01:21:13,160
But no, like you have to do 
that. 

1500
01:21:13,160 --> 01:21:15,600
And I think also then when you 
think like that, you can also 

1501
01:21:15,600 --> 01:21:19,760
start contributing in whatever 
way you would contribute to 

1502
01:21:20,040 --> 01:21:23,480
whatever instead of being more 
of like a consumer. 

1503
01:21:23,760 --> 01:21:26,480
Yeah, and it's not binary like 
it's, it's not that people 

1504
01:21:26,480 --> 01:21:28,480
should just give up on politics 
altogether. 

1505
01:21:28,480 --> 01:21:31,800
And politicians can never make 
your life better in any way. 

1506
01:21:31,880 --> 01:21:35,880
I think anyway, it's more that 
you can't outsource the thing 

1507
01:21:35,880 --> 01:21:38,480
entirely. 
You will have to do things 

1508
01:21:38,480 --> 01:21:40,560
yourself. 
And I'd say like, maybe that's 

1509
01:21:40,560 --> 01:21:44,240
like, call it like 80% and a 20%
does whatever society does. 

1510
01:21:45,160 --> 01:21:47,720
I don't know whether that's a 
proper weighting, but that's 

1511
01:21:47,720 --> 01:21:50,520
kind of the idea. 
Like my message isn't like, 

1512
01:21:50,520 --> 01:21:52,920
forget about all that stuff and 
just do everything yourself. 

1513
01:21:53,520 --> 01:21:55,120
But it is. 
You're going to have to play a 

1514
01:21:55,120 --> 01:21:59,520
bigger role in taking ownership 
of your own life than you 

1515
01:21:59,520 --> 01:22:01,840
currently are. 
If if you're like, you know, if 

1516
01:22:01,840 --> 01:22:04,080
you're someone who's not into 
Bitcoin yet, who looks at the 

1517
01:22:04,120 --> 01:22:09,280
future in a very doomy and 
gloomy way, then start there, I 

1518
01:22:09,280 --> 01:22:13,080
think. 
Yeah, so how has Bitcoin changed

1519
01:22:13,080 --> 01:22:17,680
your world view or views? 
Well, to be honest, like if I 

1520
01:22:17,680 --> 01:22:21,160
look back at my world view 
before Bitcoin, it's like I was 

1521
01:22:21,400 --> 01:22:24,080
relatively young. 
I've, I've been interested for 

1522
01:22:24,080 --> 01:22:27,440
the past decade or so. 
So I feel like what was my world

1523
01:22:27,440 --> 01:22:28,840
through? 
You know, it's just like inform 

1524
01:22:28,840 --> 01:22:33,400
based on the school or schools 
that I went to and like the 

1525
01:22:33,400 --> 01:22:35,560
stuff I heard on the news and 
the things that you read and the

1526
01:22:35,560 --> 01:22:38,000
people you talk to, but it's 
much more narrow. 

1527
01:22:38,000 --> 01:22:41,000
So for me, if anything, Bitcoin 
has just helped me understand 

1528
01:22:41,000 --> 01:22:44,880
that the world is incredibly 
like simultaneously incredibly 

1529
01:22:45,120 --> 01:22:48,040
simplistic, just driven by 
incentives and all of the 

1530
01:22:48,120 --> 01:22:51,120
outcomes that you see just kind 
of like come from that. 

1531
01:22:51,800 --> 01:22:53,920
And at the same time, so many 
things are so nuanced. 

1532
01:22:53,920 --> 01:22:56,840
Like it's, it's not so black and
white of this specific thing 

1533
01:22:56,840 --> 01:23:00,760
'cause that thing entirely or 
these people all think this way.

1534
01:23:01,080 --> 01:23:04,480
Just almost everything out 
there, both in Bitcoin itself 

1535
01:23:04,480 --> 01:23:07,840
and outside of it are just on 
some kind of spectrum of 

1536
01:23:08,280 --> 01:23:11,120
extremities. 
And the extremities are often 

1537
01:23:11,120 --> 01:23:12,640
like where the loudest people 
are. 

1538
01:23:13,320 --> 01:23:17,760
So in general, it's just like 
opened my view to knowing that I

1539
01:23:17,760 --> 01:23:21,880
don't know that much about the 
world as I as I think I do, and 

1540
01:23:22,240 --> 01:23:25,080
that typically most things that 
you dive into just have far more

1541
01:23:25,080 --> 01:23:28,840
complexities and reasons behind 
it and are perceived differently

1542
01:23:28,880 --> 01:23:31,080
by different people. 
So for me, if anything, it's 

1543
01:23:31,080 --> 01:23:34,000
just been very humbling and 
interesting because it's 

1544
01:23:34,040 --> 01:23:37,120
introduced me to so many things 
I never thought I'd learn about 

1545
01:23:37,120 --> 01:23:39,960
deep to your point earlier, like
going anywhere in the world and 

1546
01:23:39,960 --> 01:23:43,120
just talking to other Bitcoiners
and hearing how they live their 

1547
01:23:43,120 --> 01:23:46,560
life, how the people around them
very often face very similar 

1548
01:23:46,560 --> 01:23:48,640
problems or have similar, 
similar questions. 

1549
01:23:49,520 --> 01:23:52,560
But just gradually as I get 
older, learning more and more 

1550
01:23:52,560 --> 01:23:54,680
about the how the world actually
works. 

1551
01:23:55,240 --> 01:23:58,160
I think, I mean, you assume 
anyway, maybe I still don't get 

1552
01:23:58,160 --> 01:24:01,120
it. 
But first is how it's presented 

1553
01:24:01,160 --> 01:24:04,520
as working, which is just super 
fascinating to me. 

1554
01:24:05,040 --> 01:24:09,160
Yeah, I agree. 
I, I love to saying, you know, 

1555
01:24:10,400 --> 01:24:12,840
once you know that you don't 
know everything, you know, then 

1556
01:24:12,840 --> 01:24:17,920
you are humbled quickly and, 
and, and because of that, at 

1557
01:24:17,920 --> 01:24:20,720
least for me and I think also 
for you like it, it triggers 

1558
01:24:20,720 --> 01:24:24,440
that, you know, being 
intellectually curious part and 

1559
01:24:24,440 --> 01:24:28,720
therefore you start seeing that 
the world works different. 

1560
01:24:28,960 --> 01:24:32,400
You don't have to understand how
exactly, but the fact that you 

1561
01:24:32,400 --> 01:24:36,720
understand that it works 
different than what is being fed

1562
01:24:36,720 --> 01:24:42,960
to you through the TV, for 
example, that is already mind 

1563
01:24:42,960 --> 01:24:46,960
opening, I would say, right. 
That draws you in even more 

1564
01:24:46,960 --> 01:24:51,240
like, OK, well, but do the 
people think that actually look 

1565
01:24:51,240 --> 01:24:53,440
at the TV and only think about 
that, you know, and then and 

1566
01:24:53,440 --> 01:24:54,440
then you start seeing those 
things. 

1567
01:24:54,440 --> 01:25:00,320
So yeah, I think I, I think just
that curious curiosity comes 

1568
01:25:00,320 --> 01:25:02,640
back a lot in my conversations 
like that. 

1569
01:25:02,760 --> 01:25:05,760
That is just it. 
And that is, I think also part 

1570
01:25:05,760 --> 01:25:08,560
of taking that responsibility 
and thinking for yourself and 

1571
01:25:08,560 --> 01:25:16,600
not just, yeah, assuming that 
what someone else says, you 

1572
01:25:16,600 --> 01:25:19,480
know, that looks like a benefit 
for you is also actually a 

1573
01:25:19,480 --> 01:25:21,240
benefit for you. 
Like you still have to think for

1574
01:25:21,240 --> 01:25:22,560
yourself. 
You know, there's, there's 

1575
01:25:22,560 --> 01:25:24,600
reasons people say things. 
So yeah. 

1576
01:25:25,920 --> 01:25:26,600
Yeah. 
Interesting. 

1577
01:25:26,600 --> 01:25:28,360
It's fascinating. 
I use the word fascinating also 

1578
01:25:28,360 --> 01:25:30,600
a lot because it's like a never 
ending thing, right? 

1579
01:25:30,600 --> 01:25:33,360
It's just, it just keeps going 
and you learn about all these 

1580
01:25:33,360 --> 01:25:38,120
different subjects. 
And yeah, I like all these 

1581
01:25:38,120 --> 01:25:41,000
things. 
So yeah, that's a question 

1582
01:25:41,000 --> 01:25:43,720
because I think you have to go. 
But I asked everyone the same 

1583
01:25:43,720 --> 01:25:45,400
question. 
And that is what is a core 

1584
01:25:45,400 --> 01:25:56,080
belief you will never let go. 
I think the fact that human 

1585
01:25:56,080 --> 01:26:00,960
beings are incredibly 
resourceful and will continue to

1586
01:26:00,960 --> 01:26:04,040
kind of like surprise people 
with where we can take this. 

1587
01:26:04,640 --> 01:26:08,240
I, that's for me, like one of 
the things that I remain very 

1588
01:26:08,240 --> 01:26:10,160
hopeful about where we can take 
this space. 

1589
01:26:10,520 --> 01:26:13,600
Like I would never bet against 
core developers coming up with 

1590
01:26:13,600 --> 01:26:16,920
ways to make Bitcoin scale or, 
or coming up with ways to make 

1591
01:26:16,920 --> 01:26:21,000
it more private or for the 
Bitcoin community in general to 

1592
01:26:21,160 --> 01:26:24,000
enact like really beautiful and 
wonderful things in the world. 

1593
01:26:24,720 --> 01:26:28,440
So that's, that's something that
I that I hold on to and that I 

1594
01:26:28,440 --> 01:26:32,040
hope we can, you know, make make
a huge impact on the world with,

1595
01:26:32,080 --> 01:26:34,840
even if Bitcoin for some reason 
doesn't scale to billions of 

1596
01:26:34,840 --> 01:26:38,240
people, as long as, you know, we
look back at our lives and think

1597
01:26:38,240 --> 01:26:41,080
like, you know, to our point 
earlier, we gave it a shield and

1598
01:26:41,080 --> 01:26:45,120
we made the most out of this. 
I think that's, yeah, that's a 

1599
01:26:45,120 --> 01:26:48,600
belief that I hold on to dearly.
Love that man. 

1600
01:26:48,600 --> 01:26:51,520
So great ending. 
Thanks so much for your time. 

1601
01:26:52,160 --> 01:26:54,800
And Yemen. 
I think we'll do this again and 

1602
01:26:55,560 --> 01:26:57,240
we should meet sometimes. 
We're not. 

1603
01:26:57,240 --> 01:26:58,920
We're not that far apart. 
Yeah. 

1604
01:26:59,280 --> 01:27:02,480
I mean, we have in Madeira I 
think, but beyond that not too 

1605
01:27:02,520 --> 01:27:05,000
much. 
But yeah, we could probably talk

1606
01:27:05,000 --> 01:27:07,120
for hours. 
Thanks for having me of. 

1607
01:27:08,000 --> 01:27:10,960
Course man my pleasure. 
I hope you enjoyed this episode.

1608
01:27:10,960 --> 01:27:13,920
If you did, it would be amazing 
if you could rate, review and 

1609
01:27:13,920 --> 01:27:16,520
subscribe on the podcast 
platform of your choice. 

1610
01:27:16,800 --> 01:27:19,480
It will help us educate more 
millennials on the importance of

1611
01:27:19,480 --> 01:27:21,520
Bitcoin. 
You can follow and connect with 

1612
01:27:21,520 --> 01:27:25,080
me on Twitter. 
I'm Bram K that's at BR AM K, 

1613
01:27:25,360 --> 01:27:27,520
and if you are or know someone 
who has an interesting 

1614
01:27:27,520 --> 01:27:29,960
perspective on Bitcoin that's 
worth sharing, hit me up. 

1615
01:27:30,320 --> 01:27:32,080
I read and reply to every single
message. 

1616
01:27:32,360 --> 01:27:34,840
I appreciate your support and 
hope you'll be here for the next

1617
01:27:34,840 --> 01:27:36,320
episode. 
Thanks for listening. 

1618
01:27:36,560 --> 01:27:36,840
Bye.