I love that we talked for two hours last time and we didn't
really record and I messed up, so I'm happy we're back.
But yeah, yesterday I talked for almost 2 hours with Michael
Dunworth. Right.
Brain fried. Amazing.
Like I love I he he just goes all over the place and I'm
trying to follow and you know it's just very interesting way
of thinking and very interesting brain you know and I love that
about you know having a podcast and I think you have the same
experience. Like it's just fun to talk to
people in the same space and discover their thoughts and
their journeys and how they well in your case were once bitten
and stayed or went further down the rabbit hole.
Yeah, it's just super cool. And so it's fun to to make like,
a dual episode like this, right? It's daily therapy I find
talking to a bitcoiner. I agree.
Well for this podcast we yeah, I think you invited me but we were
like let's let's just make a dual episode and we do it on our
our both of our channels trying to think about because we don't
want to replicate our previous conversation or try to to to do
that. But I think and what is fun to
share like I I I wanted to hear about like your journey into
into Bitcoin and and of course we talked about that a bit but
maybe that's like a nice place to start or something.
I don't know what's your, What's your thought?
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I can give the the Cliff
notes. I started in financial markets
at the age of 19 in foreign exchange markets on the spot
dollar market desk. In London in 1995 and by 1999 I
had the opportunity to to move out to Singapore, to carry on my
career out there, to further my career in a slightly different
area. It was in foreign exchange
options and that was, that was an incredible experience.
What was supposed to be a few years turned into 15 years and
my wife and I got married over the excuse me.
We moved over there together from the UK and we came back and
we got married. But we had all of our kids over
there, our four children. And in 2013 I read a book called
The Four Hour Workweek by Tim Ferriss, which made me think
about life completely differently.
And I realized that I had painted myself into a corner,
into a career which I thought was a great career, was paying
great money. And I thought I'd, you know, I
was winning at the game of life. And realized I was losing.
I was losing everything. I was losing my time.
I was losing my My energy was being expended because being
completely corralled by somebody else for somebody else's gain.
My kids were losing because the father wasn't around.
Hardly ever my wife was losing because I wasn't there to help
support the family. And I was losing because
mentally, I thought I was doing absolutely everything I could to
support the family, everything I could to build a good career,
Everything I could to follow this social construct of keep
your head down, do good work, get a job, get your promotion,
climb the corporate ladder, get the 2.4 kids, get the white
picket fence. You know, I, you know, I was
doing all that stuff. It was all good and I was good
at it. But no.
Way in the world where we what you could ever, you know,
describe as, you know, fully content.
There was always worries, there was always stress, There was
always, you know, anxiety. We're always running 1000 miles
an hour just to stand still. Did you feel free if you look
back? Did you feel free if you look?
Back. No, no.
Completely trapped. Totally in that moment also or
only when you reflect. No, in that moment too.
I knew we were trapped. I knew there was, you know, I
was just thinking, daydreaming 10/15/20 years ahead when I
could finally walk away, do the big retirement thing.
Finally the time would be mine. Then I could spend my time on
the golf course and whatever else.
But guess what? The kids have begun and I
wouldn't have seen them. And this is what many people.
Suffer with, like, the biggest regrets in life as as they even
come to like 50 or 60. It's like, huh, I didn't spend
any time with my kids. Wow.
But it's even worse when you hit your deathbed and you know
you're reflecting on your life and you realize how your time on
this planet had been completely controlled since the age of 3-4
or five when you entered into the, you know, the schooling
system. That's it.
It's all over. It's all over from there.
Like somebody else is running your time and you are not free
and you're not able to make your own decisions or your choices.
You're not allowed to have free thoughts, you're not allowed to
spare time. And you're you're certainly not
allowed to express your creativity.
You know, you, you're you're shackled into that system of the
education system, 1520 years and then straight into a corporate
role if you're lucky. Because that's all the kids want
to do. They want to get out there,
become. Bankers, lawyers, surgeons,
doctors, you know, all the big fancy jobs.
Nobody wants to take the risk, you know, perceived risk of
starting their own thing, starting their own business,
expressing their creativity, filling a a gap in the market.
No, no, no. That's just for those weirder
entrepreneurs. You know, there's only a few of
those amongst us, right? There's probably one in 100.
They know we all are. This is our natural.
Our natural state is to be entrepreneurial.
Our natural state as human beings is to solve problems with
problem solving machines and this gets beaten out of us.
And so there I was reading this book, I'm like, fuck I I can't
have this. You know, I was 36.
I I can't sit here for another 20 years just wishing this away.
And what happens? Even if I get I might get fired
in 18 months time. Who knows?
Who knows what you know. Market conditions could happen.
How many people lost their jobs between 2020 and 2022?
No fault of their own. Just gone.
Thank you. See you later.
But our business has to close, and that's the end of your job.
You did everything right up until that point.
Then you got rug bull, you know, from situations that you just
couldn't control. So I feel that this is a team,
right? The team of understanding the
different external for forces that control your life, but also
your thinking, right? And that once you start peeling
away that then you discover all these things where you are
actually not even aware of the fact that you were unaware that
you were participating in something that you actually or
never thought about. Like where did I sign up for
this right? Or why?
Why do I think this? And also where some people
realize, well, what I think about this is the total opposite
of of what I was participating in, right?
I I see that as a common theme that, that once you see that,
you know, all other people are no different than you.
Yeah. Why are they controlling my
life? You know why?
Why are there things in place that control my life?
And a great example of this, of how we've had the world pulled
over our eyes to engage in in in behaviors that we would never
even. Ever consider but now think is
just commonplace and perfectly fine.
And that would be so. A perfect example of this is,
you know, taking out a loan or a mortgage to buy a property now.
We that's the only way you can buy a property, right?
That's the literally that we've been backed into the corner to
do this and everybody thinks that is perfectly OK.
This is a perfectly OK way to behave, and you get so.
Would you willingly debase the purchasing power of everybody
else around you by counterfeiting money into the
system? Well, I would say no, you
wouldn't, because you're a good human being.
Everybody listening or watching. This is a good human being.
But that's literally what you are doing, all of us are doing
when we enter into these agreements with the banks to
take out mortgage for a house or a loan for a car or a loan, buy
something on finance, you know, for your house and you so for
whatever it is. And So what, what is happening
there when you when you take out that loan, you enter into that
mortgage agreement, you validate the game that they are playing
exactly right. Yeah, you you validate you green
light, the bank to counterfeit money on your behalf into the
system, which inflates the monetary supply which debases
the purchasing power of everybody else around you.
And the default answer to this from most people is.
Well, everybody else is doing it, so why shouldn't I do that?
You know, So you now you enter into this zero sum game, and we
we every time we do that, we are perpetually inflating the
monetary supply, which is debasing the purchasing power of
our currency, which is pushing the prices of everything else
that we need up against us. We've been tricked into it.
It's very clever. Very clever.
So now who owns all of the property?
100 years ago, 150 years ago or two or three generations ago,
the people, people would have owned their own property.
Sure, they were paying land tax and we can get into whether or
that you ever own anything, but they would have owned the
property right until this idea of let's flood the market with
cheap money and cheap mortgages. So now somebody can afford.
A nicer house or a better house. So, but the only way they can
afford that is to take the loan and the money from the bank.
So who owns the property now? All the banks.
Very few people own their own property.
So we've had this transfer of ownership from property from
homeowners. Maybe your, you know, great
grandfather owned his actual house.
Then your grandfather maybe owned that.
But then your mum and dad didn't.
And then you certainly won't. So it's been a gradual, gradual
March of this transfer of ownership of private property
from the people who actually need the roofs over their heads
to the banks. And how do the banks get that?
Well, they offer you this dangled carrot and then you
enter into this contract of, well, we need a deposit of real
money that you have actually expended energy to get, yes?
€50,000, let's say your life savings.
I'll tell you what, you give us your life savings, we'll
counterfeit the rest, and then you pay us interest on the
counterfeit money. How does that sound?
Like they make double money. Almost, yeah.
Right. Yeah, that that is pure usury
in, in the purest form of usury. That is criminal.
That is immoral. That is illegal.
But somehow they've managed to write.
Loopholes around the legalities of this and tricked everybody
into participating in this awful game of 0 sum outcome where
everybody ends up poorer, including you.
You think you've got the house, but you don't.
And they can take it back whenever they want and they can
change the interest rates on you whenever they want.
And is this as simple as, like, not teaching you?
Because I think you can only come to this realization.
I also can think about like people who listen to this.
And I mean I was one of those people.
So you know, you you think about, no, this could not be
that bad, right. It.
No that, you know, this sounds very, very bad.
Like it's really it's a complete 180 from the perception that I
think most people have as to how it works, right.
Yeah, of course there's loans and then I can I can buy a house
because everyone needs a house, etcetera, right.
But once you if, if, if you don't know it, right, then what
you just said sounds very foreign, right?
Sounds very far away. And also also as you said,
right? Like, yeah, I'm a if you think
of yourself that, that you're a good human being and you would
never exploit a system if you found like a way to corrupt it,
the reality, and it's not an opinion, is that other people
do, right? So just because you think that
you would never do that because you think you're righteous
doesn't mean that other people would.
And of course people would. I mean you have kids.
I have a kid like the whole self preservation thing.
Like give me from first. That's just in everyone, right?
And I feel like it's not acknowledging that.
Yeah. You're kind of fooling yourself
in a sense, right. Just because you don't want to
adopt that reality. That's that's where you stay in,
well, almost dreamland in a sense that you're just, like,
unaware of how how it actually works, Right.
And I mean, like, when I say I was the same, like I was 30 and
I was working at a bank and I had a mortgage and I had no clue
how it works. And then I had a colleague who
who told me, do you, did you know that the money in the bank
is not yours? And I said, sorry, what?
And then we had a lunch for an hour and he explained to me
like, how how banking works. And then I thought, well, that's
a great business model for banks.
But I'm an idiot. Like, I felt I was like, happy
to learn. But also like, dude, like you're
participating in a system that you have no, you don't even know
how how this works and you're happy with the house.
But on the other side, as you mentioned like you were also
trapped in a sense in, in an agreement that yeah, that you
just don't understand, you know, and I I feel that like when when
you think about that more and more and more than at one point
you feel you understand that that is taking away your, your
sovereignty and freedom in a sense, right.
Because if you, if you go further in getting loans or you
well you have a house, you have kids or maybe some people lease
a car or whatever like you, you were just further down that path
and it's also way harder to actually backtrack that and and
get out of that, right? What was your role within the
bank? I was working as?
So my background is in like building start-ups and new
digital businesses. So I was working in like the
innovation department guiding, helping teams to explore new
ideas and build them out, etcetera.
But I was so in different business lines, they had
different innovation teams and I was at risk.
So there were all these PhD economic people who were working
in Excel every day to make reports for the European Central
Bank, which was also just a real eye opener, right?
Like just seeing super smart people making a report that was
always, you know you have a green, orange, red.
It was always orange, right orange.
But and then some explainer like it it it was really like the
cubicle thing where people were just sitting down and like doing
and I always thought. What a waste of what?
A waste of brain power and life. Yeah, just energy, right?
Yeah. And.
And at one point I walked around with the head of Risk and he
told me if I send all these people home, nothing's going to
break. Because you know, if you get
your, your, your, your loan payment, like first thing you
pay for is your house. So there are almost no defaults
on mortgages and stuff like that.
Yeah, only if people lose their jobs, some really bad stuff
happens. But in general, once people
commit to that, then, you know, that's that's the first thing
they pay every month, obviously. And so then I also thought,
well, why are these people here? And then he explained to me
while they're making the the report, right.
Yeah, it's just a sad, sad scene.
So that that time for me was really interesting to learn
about how it actually worked, actually realizing that I had no
clue and that I was participating in something that
I, yeah, just did not understand.
And then also seeing these people who were obviously very
smart, but yeah, chose to be in this career, as you also said.
Right. And then yeah, you see, like
these bosses, like the golden cage and banking, like all that
stuff is real. Like, I I met people at two
houses in a boat. And then we're like, yeah, I'm
not going to fix anything. I'm not going to stick my head
out, you know, I don't want to have my head chopped off inside
here. Like, I don't, I don't want to
be fired because I have all these other obligations and
loans and stuff. And so it's kind of like I think
it can start with the right incentives, right.
If you start your career you want to contribute to something
but along the way the the, the reward system changes that to
very yeah prefers it turns around basically.
So that's what made you get there will also if you continue
like that, it will also make sure you you you get removed
from that place so you stop being you know the different
thinker or the innovator or the whatever because then yeah, it's
not, it's unsafe to do that basically.
And you're never yourself. That's also set, right?
Yeah. Yeah.
Because you're always wearing a mask.
You you you always try it. I didn't wear the suit, but
yeah, the suit is is I think the visual example of that.
Yeah, in a sense, you you can't. You can't be yourself because
you get moulded by the people and the incentive structure
around you and you have to become a chameleon of sorts to
you're you're one person with your peers, you're another
person with your customers, you're another person with your
higher ups then just being yourself like you know, showing
up every day and being yourself and adding value to something
that you actually truly believe in instead.
You're adding value to something just to get by, and like,
there's the psychological drain of that.
People talk about burnouts all of the time and it's just
because you're doing the same monotonous bullshit every day
that you are not finding any kind of value in.
And that is also not challenging because it's people can play
around, you know, these political games and like just
fuck around basically because the business model of this is so
damn good, right? Like it's fascinating that you
have banks with thousands of employees where you know if you
just have to manage the pile of money that you loan out and
calculate the risk and do you know the payments etcetera.
I don't think you need more than 100 people to run just you know
multi billion mortgage portfolio, right.
Like it's it's a very simple business model, very clear and I
think on one side to be honest like it does the the origin of
banks does make sense to me. You know if it's credits for
businesses, you know where if if they have a good projection
towards the future. But they need a loan, which is
money, you know, energy from the future right now.
To, you know, accelerate their journey.
I mean like I, I, I can agree with that.
Like that's I think that's a great function.
I think when you take the step to mortgages and houses like I
think that's already where it gets a bit murky, right, because
it's the same model. But then if you start to like
financialize housing, which is I don't know is that the number 2
human right or something, you know that that already gets
murky, right? And that then, you know,
different banks with different piles of money start to compete
with each other based on the rates and the service and blah
blah. I don't know that that already
starts to become kind of unethical if you want to go
there, right? But then because it's such good
money, these banks instead of just being a creditors, they
start to become these institutions and you can you
know do investing and there's a high net worth white glove
service Like they they do all this other stuff which is
basically being paid for by the profits of all the loans.
And that's where kind of like this, the business is so good.
And that's why people can mess around, you know, because the
money will be made anyway, Like if you, if you fuck up along the
way, but you can, but you're politically gifted, then you can
stick around, you know, and then you can get the two houses in
the boat and whatever. So it's kind of like when I
walked around there, it was funny.
Like, I was also, I worked there as a freelancer and so I had a
MacBook sneakers and AT shirt and tattoos.
And so 50% was like, who's that? I'm not going to listen to him.
And the other 50% was like, oh, he's external.
Maybe I should listen to him, you know, it's really fun.
So I loved being in that space just to experience it right.
Like everyone has a picture of it and how that is.
So I, I, I and I also learned a lot you know about communication
and stuff like that. But it was just it's just yes,
fascinating. It's fascinating to see and also
to that in in only worked well a total four years in banking.
But like in a short period of time you see that game, like
within two weeks, you understand that there's people who are just
playing the internal game and creating nothing, nothing of
value basically. And they're just, yeah, just
because there's so much money they can play the game.
It's actually, that's very sad, right?
And and funny because in my like space of work, we had like all
these new ideas, right? And some failed and some would
continue. And then my argument all the
time was, well, would you put your own money into this if I
asked you for 100K of your own money right now?
Like, would you put that money into this?
And obviously a lot of the answers were like, no.
And then I said, but well, why would you put 100K of the bank
in it? Like it's not, yeah, that's not
my money, you know, And that's where a lot of, I think waste
comes from. And it's just that all the
efforts are so scattered. You know, it's there's, yeah,
there's just not a lot of value being created.
And if it's created, yeah, it's they're using other people's
money. Right.
So it's just, it's fair. Very.
I don't know. It was a long rant, but it's
just, it taught me a lot, right? Like it it really opened my eyes
to how some things work and then triggered me to think about it.
Like, what do I actually think about it, right?
Like, now that I saw the this information, it really forced me
to, yeah, create an opinion I'd say.
And that's why we love Bitcoin. And it's hard cap.
You can't just create money out of dinner exactly.
And and also the trustlessness is like the past few weeks, like
that dimension of Bitcoin has really popped up for me.
Like everyone has their own issues with their own ego and
their own life and we all have the same journey of what as you
expressed, right? Like I did something yesterday I
talked to Michael Dunworth, we had the Confucius quotes about
man has two lives and the second begins when he only realizes he
has, when he realizes he only has one right.
Like everyone has their journey. Everyone, right?
And we are all the same. No one is better than than you
or me. Like we we are just all the
same, right? And once you realize that, you
can also, I think, accept that if we are all the same and
eventually in the right place, we are all corruptible because
we want to. I want you to die before me
basically, right? I want to live if there's a
choice, right? So I will always choose myself
as the survival instinct. Like once you accept that, you
also will see that you don't want to follow rulers, you don't
want to follow other people who create rules that become like
the external influence of other people's lives.
And once you think that that should not be the case, then
you, I think, automatically end up at Bitcoin because that is
just rules enforced by all the people in in the network.
And therefore, because you can trust no one, you can trust
everyone basically. Right.
So we are all, you know, the people that contribute to the
network. We are, yeah, accepting that we
should trust rules and not rulers.
And I that is something that has really become like a main point
for me that I find very fascinating.
Like I I feel that Bitcoin in that sense is way more kind of
like a personal journey and understanding of life and
incentives and stuff like that than the the technical part, for
example. Yeah, how's that for you?
Oh. Yeah, for sure, for sure.
Like, you know, so you have this 21 million hard cap and that's a
thing I think most people struggle with because of they've
spent their whole life. You know being gas lit by by
Keynesian economics and and a lot of people think well you
know there's not enough Bitcoin to go around for everybody so
it's going to fail when the then you have the conversation well
it's digital so it can be divided down to 100 million
units. So you know you are now looking
at whatever the number is. 2.1 quad trillion whatever the 21 or
2.1. Now one of the two, Yeah, I
don't know. There's too many zeros to even
comprehend like, so there's plenty and but also if something
is scarce it's worth working for.
So you have to be creative and add value and therefore you can
capture value. Exactly.
And you can't just create more of it out of thin air like we we
can in the the banking system as we've just been discussing.
So under such a system. The reverse would happen.
Prices wouldn't go up forever. Prices would go down forever.
And that's when you lose a lot of people again.
Because no, this can't be true like that.
What a world would that be. Everybody would be poorer.
You like, huh? But then people are looking at
price, right? I think that's the trick.
People are looking at the units numbers, the price of stuff.
I think that's the deception is in the the numbers and the
height of a numbers and that that represents fail you.
Sorry, I didn't want to interrupt you, but that's no.
No, no. And getting stuck on looking at
the the price of Bitcoin priced in, in euro terms or dollar
terms or pound terms, whatever it is, you you get stuck looking
at that number and and you're still trapped in this Fiat
mindset of, oh, I'm going to have lots more dollars.
That's great, but everyone's going to have lots more dollars
because they keep printing it. And that just still means the
prices of things that you want and desire are going to go up
priced in that. But they're going to go down
priced in Bitcoin. Yeah.
And then when you turn it around, if you think about just
priced in Bitcoin, if you think about Bitcoin, it's just the
protocol that just is like one. The the meme of one Bitcoin is 1
Bitcoin. That's the whole point, $1.00 is
not $1.00. Yeah, maybe now, but now, not
anymore, right? Like 3 seconds later, it's
already different, right? And so the dollar in, dollar in.
1980, another mortgage has been written somewhere exactly right.
So in 19, the dollar in 1980 is not the same dollar as as the
$1.00 now. And I think that in general when
we talk about Bitcoin or or trying to educate people, right.
Because as you mentioned in the beginning, all this stuff, it's
never talked about even when people do a master in economics.
I have some people on Twitter that reply to me and they said
like, oh, bitcoins, fake money, this and that, blah blah.
And then I ask what is money? And then I get replies like,
well, I'm a master of economics and I couldn't tell you.
And then I think like, wow, sorry, what?
But so we don't get we're not being taught this right.
And so the I forgot where I was going but like the the the money
thing like we don't know what is money and we just look at the
one thing one USD is 1 USD but that's it's just not true and we
are it's still kind of laughable sometimes when people say like
oh Coca-Cola, whatever was one dollar 1980 and now it's three.
OK like nobody asks a question why why That is right.
And yeah I find that angle fascinating.
I think that that angle is very important to hopefully show
people that something is really wrong that's right and that we
have to talk about the problem more or less the we we think or
we know that Bitcoin is the solution, but that is not I
think where. No, it's not like this, this
definition of inflation that people believe.
They actually believe what the central bank says.
They actually believe that. A little bit of inflation in the
economy is good for the economy. Like a an economic PhD will come
word for word. Repeat that to you.
And like you said that they don't know because it's they
haven't been taught. They've been taught what they
need to be taught to keep this, this game afoot, And here we go.
I went to the It's a Ponzi. Yeah, it is.
I went to the home page of the Bank of England the other day.
It's like a knowledge Ponzi Funny.
I tweeted this. Let let me pull this up, because
this is what's actually said on the Bank of England's home page.
Here we go. Inflation is a measure of how
much the prices of goods such as food or televisions and services
such as haircuts or train tickets have gone up over time.
It literally says that on the landing page of the Bank of
England. I mean.
That is a lie. The actual definition of
inflation is an increase of the monetary supply, not an increase
of prices. The increase of prices is a
knock on effect of increasing monetary supply.
Now they go on to say after that, here we go, the money we
So they then go on to talk about quantitative easing.
And increasing the the monetary supply into into the into the
system. Quote from the landing page of
the Bank of England. The money we used to buy bonds
when we were doing QE did not come from government taxation or
borrowing. Instead, like other central
banks, we can create money digitally.
They're not even hiding it. Yeah, it's there translation.
I bought something of perceived value without actually creating
value that. Translation.
We counterfeit money. We literally counterfeit money.
The Bank of England might as well just say
bankofengland.co.uk. Your local money counterfeiters
like it. And the same for the Fed.
And the same for Bank of Japan, and the same for Royal Bank of
Australia. Every single central bank around
the world. Are counterfeiting money and
then the the banks that sit underneath them that the only
people that can bank in such a fashion are the ones that are
licensed to do that in their country by their central bank,
by their self ordained central bank which is not part of the
government. So we we are.
When people start waking up to this, you can't Unsee it and you
get angry and you go through these like 7 stages of grief,
you know? Yeah, yeah.
Yeah. Well, how could we word it
differently, right? Because when you say it's
counterfeiting, I talked with Jeff Boots about this, right,
about inflation is theft and stuff.
Like the words for a lot of people are very hard.
Even when you say counterfeiting, I still feel
that somewhere, right? Like it's just and it's so
fascinating because that belief that everything is OK and people
are righteous and they're doing it for you, like that runs
really deep if you, especially if you grew up.
I said there's a lot like in a Western country where, you know,
I had food and water and a roof and grew up in the best time
ever to grow up for any person, whoever lived, Right.
So I never had had or saw a problem, right.
So even now that I see Bitcoin and all these problems, I still
feel it when you say counterfeiting, right?
I feel like, no, that that can't be true, right?
It must not be true. Because if you once you really
integrate that, your whole worldview changes, I'd say,
right? Yeah, so well.
I I've just, I've just looked up these these stages of grief.
There are five or seven, so let's let's just do the five
because it'd be quicker and they're pretty much the same
anyway. Denial is the first one.
Yeah. So when, you know you have this
conversation with somebody out at lunch or whatever and you
bring this up, the first thing they do whenever you're trying
to orange peel someone is deny. You know what?
What are you talking about? Rolling the eyes.
What are you. Yeah, Yeah, yeah.
What's not? Are you crazy?
Are you out of your mind? Yeah.
Is good for the economy. What website have you been on,
Daniel? Exactly.
Take your tinfoil hat off at the lunch table.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So right, there you go, Bam,
denial. So then what comes next?
Maybe because you, you know, as you know, you plant the seed and
it just slowly, like it might keep you awake at night.
Or you think about it. You see something that connects
a dot with what you've been told.
You're like, huh, That reminds me of that conversation.
Boom. You know, something happened
inside you. You see it, then it's anger.
Is the next stage. You're angry because you should
be. We have been duped.
We've all been completely and utterly, totally stolen from.
This is theft. Counterfeiting is immoral, and
we've all been bought into this system of destruction.
And yet you should be angry. But the problem is, a lot of
people get stuck there, right? We still see it even in the.
Bitcoin space today I have to think about before you continue,
I have to think about yesterday. I think there was an episode, Oh
yeah, Peter McCormack with RFK saw a nice tweet, the response
by RFK on what brought Bitcoin to his attention.
And then he says if the government can punish you by
shutting down your bank account without even charging you with a
crime, they have the ultimate power to turn us into slaves.
Again, hard words, but that ties into this angrieness.
Like once you realize that that is that that is actually the
case, it's so messed up like you that that's what I meant with
then it changes your world view because you realize that not
everything you've been taught was loving or caring or true
right and and that there's a lot of things that have not been
taught to you and then on purpose.
This is almost describing somebody's descent into the
rabbit hole. Actually it's it's probably
memeable if it's not been done already because the next stage.
Is anger. Excuse me?
No, we've done anger, denial, anger and then.
Is guilt or bargaining, which is what we were talking about.
Like, you know, you bargain in your mind.
It's like, well, I I needed to take out that loan for that
extra money for that. Holiday.
You know, a mortgage. Most people, yes.
Justifying your ignorance or something.
Yeah, basically that, yeah, I I needed to do that.
And you're bargaining with yourself and you're trying to
find a way around the the guilt that you slowly to be
disappointed in yourself. Yeah, that's a good one.
Yeah. Yeah.
Which many people that have been through the Bitcoin Rabbit Hole
arc have felt they felt all of these feelings?
And then depression. A lot of people, and you see it,
A lot of people are very depressed about, huh, how did we
get here? No wonder society acts in such a
way. No wonder this is broken.
No wonder that is broken. No, you know, like this is this
is bleak and a lot of people can get very, very stuck there.
And it's very dangerous to to linger in in that part of the
that's basically when you embrace the deception, right?
And that you lived. Tough times tough times and then
finally you get you get to acceptance and you you you kind
of like work your way through it you're like right.
OK, that was tough, but at least I know now and and what can I do
to change course and. That's why Bitcoin is so
important to to those of us that have found it, because we can
opt out of that system. We can opt out of that coercion
and that manipulation. And we can save it, gives it,
you know, Bitcoin is savings technology.
It's like, my God, I can save again just by exchanging this
Fiat currency that is designed to lose purchasing power.
I can. Flip that into something that is
designed to keep or increase in purchasing power, Yeah.
Wow. OK, it's really a 180.
I'm thinking maybe we should make a video on the stages of
grief. And then, yeah, just as you
said, like you, because it is only when you go fully through
it and you accept that you were unaware that you've been duped,
that you now know that you were disappointed in yourself.
But now understand, because the acceptance is actually only the
1st part, right? It's the acceptance is OK.
I see the problem now. I see the effect on my life.
I have made the decision that that is, I don't agree with
that. I don't want to live this life,
the one life, right? And that I'm influenced by all
these other people who are no better than me, etcetera.
Only then the rest of the Bitcoin journey starts, right?
Because Bitcoin is only the the solution.
I think. I think it's actually a very
good like a method to Orange Bill perhaps, right?
Because per stage you can talk about these different things and
it's actually interesting because the the.
The, the, the denial is only after you heard the facts,
right? It's all a personal journey.
It's not even about the facts. They they come before.
It's really a personal journey. And then after that you can
research, you know, a new subject, Bitcoin in this case,
right? Yeah.
It's just now that you share this, I think like that.
I think that's a great, great idea.
Also because you're not going to orange peel people with facts.
No, they're not going to help them see the problem just with
the with the facts, right? It's.
The way I and it's why I explained it to my daughter once
like would you, would you carry on playing a game with somebody
that you knew was always going to win?
Because like the the they control the manual.
Yeah, they they they change the rules on you.
Or you know, nobody likes playing with a cheat.
If you're sitting down, like 5 of you are playing a game of
Monopoly and one person keeps sliding the five hundreds under
their lap and everybody else knew, but you were just carried
on playing the game because you know, oh maybe, maybe I'll still
win. Like, no, you you're in. 0 Sum
like you are going to lose. It's funny because it's like
it's like I don't know if if this is like a thing, but I feel
like if you are a righteous person or you you have your
morals in order or something so to say.
Then when someone breaks that, let's say in this little game
example, it takes some strength to actually believe in those
morals at that like a confrontation moment and then
like act upon it, right? But the weird thing here is that
if you don't act upon it, you actually condone it, right?
And you never test yourself on your own beliefs because you can
think the beliefs, but if you don't act, it's worthless
basically because you still allow the other person to to
cheat. So it does take some courage in
a sense to actually live your your, your beliefs in a moment
of confrontation, even in a Monopoly game, right?
I think that's a great example. But what if it's a bigger game
and and the person who is changing the rules to benefit
themselves is actually pretty faceless or very far away from
you physically? Or, you know, like I cannot
drive to the central bank right now and knock on the door and
say, like, hey, can I talk to Christine?
Like that is just unrealistic, right?
So. But she is the cheat at the
table. Yes, exactly.
Or well the the head, the head of the gang of cheats, but yes,
right. That's that's great.
And so if we translate that into OK, you can probably not reach
her. You cannot ring the bell and say
can I talk to her. So what are ways to lift those
beliefs is you can do in her work first and then.
Yeah, you can get up and you can walk away from the table.
Just walk away. And that's what you do when you
buy Bitcoin. You're walking away.
You are saying no more. I'm not playing this game
anymore. Why would I sit here, wasting my
time playing this game when I know you're cheating, when I
know it? I've seen you cheat.
I know what you're doing. I know how you're doing it.
I'm walking away. You just get up.
But is this where we? Is this where we take the step
to like the bread and circus distraction, low vibration, all
that stuff? But I think so, right?
Because if you if you understand or feel right, we see all the
TikTok and short videos you know of people who have degrees but
make 16 hours, $16.00 an hour when they're a teacher and
whatever. Like people feel that something
is going on, they're not acting upon it.
They're making selfies for likes, right?
Even that well, how, how can we help people be more aware that
they the only thing they can do is act right like you have to.
You have to start moving in a sense, right?
Move to another system like how? How I lost my train of thought
here, but like how? How can we do that?
Because it is this personal thing, right?
Like if you feel like this is not OK, what can I do about it?
Well, if your answer is I cannot do anything about it and you
wake up every morning depressed or stressed or whatever, along
with the bread and circus distractions of there.
You go, that's that's where you were going with this, the bread
along along with that then that inner journey is very difficult
to to understand. OK, these are my beliefs.
I am actually right. Holy shit.
This thing outside of me is corrupted.
I have to move. I have to do something right.
But I I feel that the bread and circus part is part of keeping
you away from that. Yeah, inner work or realization,
however you want to call it, to actually get to the point where
you believe yourself, basically. Yeah, let let's unpack that for
those people that you know must might be wondering what we're
talking about. Bread and circuses and I I don't
remember which Roman. Philosopher or advisor to
whichever Roman emperor. But basically it was said we'll
give them bread and circuses and they will not revolt.
So basically, make sure you've got some kind of cheap form of
food on the table. So even today we have subsidized
bread in most countries, and we're mono cropping wheat at
ridiculous rates just to make sure that there's enough grain
to keep bread. For example, on the table or the
OR all of the derivatives that you're not starving and you get
happy dopamine feeling from crazy fights in the Colosseum
and they had lotteries and clown shows and whatever
entertainment. Exactly.
Whatever you want to say is circus.
And and the circuses today are all of that.
All of television is a circus. All of politics is a circus.
All of the sporting events are, you know, circuses directly
comparable to the Colosseum. Because you you go to a
Colosseum, there's 80,000 people there and they're baying for
blood in many, many circumstances that you know that
your team has to win at all costs.
You can't go there and enjoy a game of football or a game of
hockey or a game of whatever if you're emotionally involved in
it, which. Almost certainly every person
there is. And wow, there is 2 to 3 hours
of your life completely and utterly totally controlled your
your emotions are raised, you're you're not thinking clearly and
you'll go home. And your intention is on
something that is made-up basically, right?
You're certainly not thinking about 21 million hard cap and
finite scarcity. Exactly.
You're not. Yeah.
It's fascinating how we can
trick ourselves, right. And like also I feel that it's
important for for us when when we have the feeling that we are,
you know, we see Bitcoin, we see the problems etcetera that we,
we, we, we we do still discuss with compassion because we were
also and are still in some fact like as I just said to you, like
when you use the word like counterfeiting, I still feel it,
right. So I'm still kind of trapped in
this old thinking and identity and stuff, right.
Like I I feel that once we talk about this, it should be with
compassion and like understand that yes, we are all easily
trapped with with food and dopamine basically, right.
Like that is just that's just how it is how it is, right.
It's no one's, no one's individual faults and.
Then how do you break out of that?
Well, this is something that a lot of bitcoiners have talked
about before. So many people have changed what
they eat. They've changed their diet
completely, They've changed their their lifestyle
completely. And I've seen so many accounts
of, and I felt this myself, I I have not watched a full game of
football. I used to watch football.
I used to be a season ticket holder when I was in the UK.
Football. Soccer for you American
listeners used to take up. So much of my time and energy
and money as well, that that was all I was ever talking about.
And this is such a reversal in my mind.
It's like, huh, I look at it now, it's just a pure
distraction I have. I can actually sit down and
watch a game of football if I want to without being that
emotionally tied to it. But to be devil's advocate,
right? If people, if people hear this,
they would say like, yeah, but come on Daniel, I can have some
fun in my life, you know, but. Of course, isn't that the whole
point, The fact that you need fun in your life?
What? You know, like that?
That's already very interesting sentence, don't you think?
Like, OK, so my life is not fun, so I'm escaping to have fun.
If you think about why is my life not fun, maybe then you end
up, you know, at the money problem.
In a sense, right? So but that is maybe also the
denial instinct like yeah, but I should have fun.
I mean like what are you talking about and give people their
their football game on Sunday. They're not wrong in Yeah
they're not wrong right. But I feel like that's already I
agree with you but I think it's interesting how what the the
perceived how people can perceive that.
Yeah, it's interesting how it all slowly unravels over time,
yeah. And how you start guarding your
time and actually interacting with the things that do truly
make you happy and do truly make you you truly are interested in,
Yeah. It will expose the the things
that you you are just doing for doing's sake.
Yeah. I also feel like you are more
conscious of your time when you understand Bitcoin, like you are
conscious of what you spend time on, but also what you spend
money on or if you want to buy more stuff.
And like, I feel like I've been living really frugal in a sense,
you know, like I think everyone likes nice things in a sense,
right? Whatever you like.
Doesn't really matter. But I've had so many moments
where I was like, oh, I want this, Oh no, like do I really
need it? No, not really.
Like that is really difference a real difference in in my
thinking, I'd say like less of this, that the whole
consumerism, you know, world where you grow up in and that
you also see, I think in places where people are less fortunate,
right? Or or have less prosperity and
stuff like that. Thinking did trickle down like
these places. And sometimes when I think about
that, like that, that is very sad.
Like like like that is the purpose of life.
Get more shit that you don't need.
You know that I like to impress people that you don't like.
I love that quote. Yeah, that's but.
There's even. There's even like a term for it,
right? Retail therapy.
People will say that. Oh really?
You just go out, you'll go out and buy shit.
They don't need to impress people they don't like, but it
makes them feel good in the moment.
It makes them feel good when they bring it home and they can
display it. Two or three days later, you've
forgotten about it and you're straight back in that loop of
depression and anxiety and, you know, completely, totally
unfulfilled. So what do you think?
Basically, I need a bit more retail therapy, so you'll go out
and you'll buy another. It's just an endless cycle, this
consumption era in which we live.
Is and look at. Look at the crap it gets churned
out. You know it's just incredible.
The amount of products that are out there that shouldn't exist
wouldn't exist under a sound money standard.
Have you ever seen that video in in China or Indonesia or
something? It's a warehouse and they have
like all these not cubicles but like square, like 25 square
meters, like places. There's women working there.
They are live on TikTok and they sell stuff.
It's like a full, it's like a warehouse full.
And there's someone like walking through it and showing you all
these little cabins, all these little studios, and they're just
selling crap. It's like Aliexpress stuff and
they're selling it on TikTok and it's like the epitome of the
wastefulness of this wrong, like the Fiat world, right?
They're on your phone scrolling, buying stuff.
It's crazy. It's crazy.
But. And how now that we were talking
about this, I was thinking about, you know, the people that
talk about the environment. We need to save the planet, all
these things. Like, I think we need to take
care of the planet. The, you know, the nature was
here before us. So we have to respect that.
I love that. By the way, I think it's in New
Zealand. You have like these tribes and
they they put nature first. So whenever they think of
chopping down a tree to build a house or a road or whatever,
like they they realized that the nature was there before them.
And so they really reflect on if they should actually do that,
right. But when we talk about this
mindset and people being trapped, I feel that in some
ways this environmental activism type is also kind of, I don't
want to say circus, but it's like a social thing that people
gather around without actually talking about the the real
problems, right? It's it's sometimes, although I
agree that we have to take better care of the world, like
it feels like this is also like a distraction in a sense.
Like what? What do you think of that are
for these people or type of people or whatever?
It's such an easy sign up. It's like, oh what?
You don't care about the planet. How dare you?
You know you could cancel someone immediately with like
one sentence, but you yeah, like the social justice warriors that
would just like scream about anything without doing any kind
of research and will just blatantly mouth flap.
Repeat. What they've heard on mainstream
media about the environment and what Greta has recently said
that there is no, it's way more nuanced.
I'd say, like the world and everything is way more nuanced
than how people discuss it nowadays, Right?
Like now it's like, I'm right, you're wrong.
Oh, do you also think I'm right? Well, now we're a group, you
know, but that's and, and and and Daniel's an idiot or
something, you know, like, I don't think it works like that.
You know, it's way more nuanced and because these people find
each other in this very narrow agreement of thoughts or
something, that's why I said circus in the sense that, Oh
yeah, then we're together and we feel something and we are
validated and blah, blah. But you are not actually.
Right, Like, right, right. You're directionally perhaps
doing a good thing. But yeah, it's also you're
spending time on this and that is actually the whole point that
it's also a distraction from the real reasons why.
The real reasons are behaviour and stuff.
Yeah, the real reasons why this narrative is being pushed,
though heavy by such interested parties and lobby groups that
are benefiting and making money from this narrative.
You know that the narrative has been curated to make money for.
By certain few people that have very, very big interests in the
the narratives getting spread around and we just swallow it
and we're just like, yeah, OK, we believe that now, you know,
like the current thing meme. I love that.
You know, I believe the current thing and people just have their
minds changed by the news mainstream media daily.
Daily like that, they would wake up, check their phone.
It used to be on the train. You you would buy the morning
paper when I was going in and out of of work, and the
headlines would be your conversational topics throughout
that day. You were programmed, Your
conversations were being programmed for the next 12
hours. And that's nuts.
Yeah, that's absolutely nuts. There wouldn't be any.
Discord about it. There won't be any conversation.
True debate. It would just be, oh, did you
see this? Oh yeah, that's amazing.
I better agree with him because, you know, seems everybody else
in the office is agreeing on that side.
And I don't want to be the one that has the opposing view.
Yeah, Voila. Funny.
Yeah it's it's just so interesting that it takes a lot
of work to to not step into that trap.
It's an easy it's easy it's it's it's an easy it's easy reward to
just follow what someone else is doing and it's hard to actually
yeah do the work I think that you that you actually it's it's
more the inner journey is way more important than however you
connect with others. I'd say like how can you connect
with others if you don't know yourself right.
And I think that's why that that trap is so easy that.
Yeah. And and and a lot of people
obviously step into that. I mean, I've definitely done
that in the past, you know, but that's why I think this is so
difficult that people have you. Found have you found that like
you're not only has your personality changed people have
started moving away from you because the you you're you're
happy. You're happy to speak your mind
now because you have truth on your side.
You understand. You've seen what you've seen.
You're not willing to be the guy in the bar that just goes along
with the conversation. You're the guy now who's going
to turn around and say, well, like, no, like, yeah, I think I
do that more. I think I do that more.
I was already kind of like that in a sense that you know, even
if if there's a guy who comes here to the house like a plumber
and he has to do stuff like I still I watch what he does not
to control him. But I want to understand how it
works because I cannot do it and he can literally why I'm paying
him. And so I've always been.
I was always the annoying guy in class like oh, there's Plum
again with this question. And I think like, yeah, like,
duh. Like I want I ask a question
because I want to understand. And sometimes I feel like
there's not that many people that think like that.
Right. Like, I I I found it so
fascinating when people say that like, oh are you asking
questions again? And I think like, yeah, like
it's a conversation, right. I'm, I'm being taught something
in in you know this in college. And I just want to understand
better, like, why? Why would I adopt one thing, one
person says, You know, like, I think it's we are discovering
together. How something, for example, has
happened in the past, how we view it right now and how you
can apply it in the future, right?
I I feel like that's a conversation or at least should
be your conversation, right? So I was always like that.
But now with this, I, I, yeah, like I said before, like I think
I grew up just in a very safe, nice place.
Not. Yeah, just in a Western world.
Like, no, yeah, you have no problems.
Like there's no, there's no problems, right.
Although everyone has, you know, personal struggles or traumas or
whatever, like all these things. But I mean like real life
threatening stuff, you know, Not, not, no.
And it after I really understood not only Bitcoin but actually
you know what it's solving. And all the things that we
talked about. I really realized that I could
not Unsee it. And because I cannot Unsee it, I
cannot have these simple sound. This is not a nice word.
But like these conversations, like I just don't care.
I think it's. Yeah.
I just don't care like yeah. What's the.
I used to watch soccer as well. Like I don't watch that.
Like I nothing on. I don't.
I only have Internet at home. I don't watch TV.
Yeah, I I I think it's just naturally like you don't get
energy from other people. And I feel like in Bitcoin at
least like how you connect with each other is that you know that
when you when you talk to someone who really understands
Bitcoin apart from the subject Bitcoin, you know that they did
the personal work that was needed for them to end up to
this point. And I think that is what
connects people in Bitcoin, that you, whatever your background or
experience or whatever, it doesn't really matter.
Religion, like all these things, don't matter in Bitcoin.
It's about that personal journey that you went through or still
are going through. Like you know that as we
mentioned before, it takes courage.
Courage towards yourself. Not too impressive, just towards
yourself. Like, OK, it's me, no one's
coming to save me. I have a belief.
I see. It's not true.
I can deny that or I can investigate it.
What you will find, you know upfront is not fun to
experience, right? Because you will go to these
grief stages and once you do that you recognize and click
with people who also did that. And then again, like a religion
or any preference to whatever subjects is irrelevant because
it's not what it's about. And so.
I don't know if you answer your question, but yeah, I see that
if people don't do that work, you you recognize when people
are not like that, right? So putting a lot of things on
other people or external forces, like not talking about yourself,
you know, like your own or kind of you know, the reflection talk
that we have now, it's like you know this my journey, that's
your journey and and and discussing that, that gives me
energy because I know that I don't know anything, right.
But once I talk to someone who talks about, well this person is
a sucker or whatever like whatever, like putting the the
evidence or the reasoning outside way outside of
themselves, then you know that that they did not do the work.
And that's not a judgement, but yeah, it's just hard to connect
with with those people. And this is the.
What I think is so important about building out the the
social layer of Bitcoin and that's why I'm a big fan of
going to the conferences, going to meetups, going to events,
getting to meet other bitcoiners.
And I'll shield Orange Pill app, because I think they've done an
incredible job over the last year of bringing people together
and the the success stories that we hear from people that have.
Randomly met each other on that app, didn't realize they were
like 10 to 15 miles away from each other.
I've been the lonely bitcoiner in their family for the last 18
months. Three years, however long, go
and meet have the most amazing discussion they've ever had.
With somebody they would never have met otherwise.
And to your point that you could have somebody.
Two people from completely different sectors, completely
different ages, completely different races, completely
different religions, completely different beliefs across the
whole spectrum. One might even be a Manchester
United fan and one might be a Manchester City fan.
But you bring the Bitcoin element to the table, None of
that shit matters and you will form a relationship.
And go forward and create a meet up for your local area.
Or you you'll create a company or you'll create an article
together or you'll create a podcast together or something to
help other people understand. To help your local community
understand. Maybe you'll get together and go
around and try and orange pill all your favorite bars and
cafes. And just can you please accept
Bitcoin? This is how you do it.
And then we can put you on BTC maps.
And then other people, when they visit the city or this town,
they can come and you've just opened up a whole new business
line, whole new revenue line you didn't know existed.
So you're adding value to the community, but you're also
giving yourself the opportunity to bring other bitcoiners to
come and meet you, and to come and find you, and to build out
this social layer. It's huge.
And it can't go under appreciated so.
Yeah, more of it. More more of conversations like
this more more podcasts. More YouTube videos.
And it's so amazing to see. I saw one the other day that I
didn't even know existed. Like Bitcoin veterans, three ex
military guys interviewing ex military guys.
Like this is awesome. Like you know this is bring it
on and and what's next you know I I can't wait to the for the
day where we have a high profile.
I know it's happened in the States.
We've got high profile athletes, but high profile athlete, maybe
in Europe that starts their own podcast and starts bringing on
other athletes to either orange peel them or they are orange
peeled and they want to come on and share their story because
their reach will just explode. Yeah, but that is still just
building out the the social layer of Bitcoin and getting
people connected and understanding that there's
something going on here. It's good for me.
It's good for you. It's good for our community.
And all the way back to what you said at the beginning, you know,
it's rules. Without rulers we don't have
anybody telling us what to do, what we can build, what we can't
build, what we can say, what we can't say.
OK, maybe in the maybe your YouTube channel gets shut down
or whatever for for spreading medical misinformation, but you
know, but you are protecting yourself with people around you.
Who have the same, who have seen this, have been on the same
journey, have the same beliefs, understand the problem at hand,
know what the fix is and are willing to put their neck on the
line and educate others. Whereas many, many people
wouldn't. They don't want to stand up,
they just want to stay anonymous and that's perfectly fine as
well. But these conversations and
building out this, this, this layer, the social layer is, is
very, very important as we go forward into next.
Yeah, we go to Harvard next year.
How many people are going to come?
Yeah, When? Like.
So we've got to be ready as a community.
We've got to be ready to have all of the tools ready and all
of the education ready. And with each cycle, yeah,
whatever someone's angle is, right.
I mean, you have the veterans. I focus on millennials, right.
And it's just like, it doesn't matter.
And I think I had the exact same experience actually, if you
like. A month ago I went to Bitcoin
Amsterdam conference, my first Bitcoin conference and like my
personal Bitcoin journey has been in a in a very tiny like
local social circle. Also changed over the years,
right. Right now I think I have maybe
three people who I actively, you know, meet and and and and talk
to. But when I went to the
conference and I was in the back of the room of talk by a
Rational Root and I was like them, all these people like the
same thing and are interested in this same thing.
That felt really amazing actually to see that, right,
that that. And I also talked with Thomas
Ferrer about this, that It's just so nice also these
conversations to realize that, you know, sometimes you end up
in your research or in your challenging your own thinking or
trying to be rational. You end up in a place where you
think, like, really, is this really how it works?
Or is this now really my viewpoint on this, right?
And it's hard to accept that. But once you have a conversation
and you reflect with someone else and you understand that
you're not the only one who's seeing the same thing like that
is that's just that's a good feeling.
Because then you see that you can also trust your own like bar
of how you are are putting in the work and trying to better
yourself and and challenge yourself.
And so yeah, I completely agree. I absolutely lost that.
For the last, the last 10 minutes here, let's talk about
that that feeling that you get when you were at the conference
you you would have felt an energy right frequency, a higher
frequency. Than you would have done if you
were at a a new a new car convention or a or you know a
soft furnishing home convention or whatever, you know, industry.
It's totally not entertainment. It's not like you have to pay
attention if you want to, right? And that's why if.
You're if you're at the new car exhibition.
You'd think, right, Everybody's here for the same reason I'm
going to vibe with everybody here.
But you walk around, ignore everyone because you just want
to see the cars and you don't care who else is there.
Whereas you go to a Bitcoin conference, you end up missing
all of the freaking presentations because you're
talking. Yes, exactly.
Everybody. That's all you sent through.
Yeah. And that's also and.
And I met some people that I only knew from online, and it's
just like, I don't know, like you hug each other and it's like
a high five. It's just like you already have
some sort of mutual understanding.
And that is just really inviting to explore further, right?
And then again, it doesn't really matter where someone
comes from or what else they believe.
Like that is fair. I don't know, maybe this is big,
but I think like that is what the human connection is about,
right? That that you connect, literally
connect with each other more in a in in in in like a spiritual
way. Ish.
Then if you like Men United together, right?
It's different. It's not that, you know, I'm not
bashing on Men United fans or whatever, but it's just a
different experience. And yeah, I think that's very,
very rewarding. And it definitely does not imply
that we know everything. Absolutely not, right?
But it's fun and and and and engaging, naturally.
Engaging to have that connection and then meet other people you
know. And also now with this podcast,
I I find it interesting to see that I because you've been doing
a podcast way longer, right? And I'm just starting out and I
felt like, should there be another podcast?
And then I think I felt like why not?
And now I'm doing it. It's so much fun, like it's just
I'm meeting people all over the world and it's just really
rewarding, right? So few numbers and all that
stuff, it doesn't really matter because it's already really
rewarding to just exchange ideas and that's already enough. 100%,
right? Man, we we've got a I've just
seen a time when I know we both have a hard, hard stop in around
6-6 minutes or so. So if you had one last orange
pill left to give to somebody, who would you give it to and
why? Who I would give that to?
Wow. Well to be honest I I would love
for someone who is very well known to actually understand it
and well known. I mean like just information
distribution wise that a lot of people would listen to what this
person has to say just to get the information out right?
So I don't know, I'm thinking about like there should be a
Bitcoin on Joe Rogan, right? Or someone like, I don't know,
Leonardo DiCaprio or The Rock or whatever.
Just a person who has like a megaphone should actually like
discuss the problem that that we touched upon just to have like
an information symmetry so that people can start you know
because I think orange billing is the is the individual journey
you cannot orange bill someone right I I I think that's yeah
you you know it's it's a person's belief so I think that
that would be my answer. So explaining the problem less
orange billing explaining the problem you can talk about
Bitcoin but more like explaining the problem information symmetry
from someone or by someone with just enough reach because I've I
I also feel sometimes that if there's 8 or 800 million or 1
billion people that understand this it it's enough like not
everyone has to understand it to and they don't all have to move
away from the current system. Right.
I think. I think the people that have to
move away from the current system, the the total number is
way less than what we actually think.
What is needed to make a change. I I don't, I don't think it
should be 5 billion people or something.
I I I feels like it. It's less to show an actual
signal. Yeah.
Gradually, then, suddenly, ladies and gentlemen, we'll see.
Well people can find you at Brown K Yeah on on Twitter and
the podcast is Bitcoin for Millennials.
Well and your podcast is once bitten, right We're gonna we're
gonna cross publish this I'll add your Twitter in the show
notes and yeah thanks so much for this conversation.
I love that we just, you know without any prep we just did
this. I think that's super fun.
Let's definitely do it again and maybe, yeah, we can talk through
the stages of grief and connected to Bitcoin.
I think that's that's a fun. Fun fun exercise.
I'm looking forward to your PDF presentation.
Yes, OK, The Rabbit Hole journey and Five stages of Grief.
And sure. Anyway, enjoy the rest of your
day brother. Great to have another
conversation. Cheers.
I hope you enjoyed this episode. If you did, it would be amazing
if you could rate, review and subscribe on the podcast
platform of your choice. It will help us educate more
millennials on the importance of Bitcoin.
You can follow and connect with me on Twitter.
I'm Bram K That's at BR. AM K, and if you are or know
someone who has an interesting perspective on Bitcoin that's
worth sharing, hit me up. I read and reply to every single
message. I appreciate your support and
hope you'll be here for the next episodes.
Thanks for listening. Bye.