1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:01,920 Hello and welcome to another episode, the Winning with 2 00:00:01,920 --> 00:00:04,720 Shopify podcast. We are currently underground in 3 00:00:04,720 --> 00:00:06,440 Central London in a beautiful studio. 4 00:00:06,440 --> 00:00:08,080 If you think it looks slightly different, we're going to be 5 00:00:08,080 --> 00:00:09,600 doing more of these over the next few weeks. 6 00:00:09,680 --> 00:00:11,800 So without further ado, Chris, welcome to the show. 7 00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:13,200 Hi, Nick. Great, thanks. 8 00:00:13,200 --> 00:00:14,600 Nice to be here. We're going to be talking. 9 00:00:14,600 --> 00:00:16,480 About cookie banners, we're going to be talking about some 10 00:00:16,480 --> 00:00:19,520 of the laws around data privacy, GDPR and a few other bits and 11 00:00:19,520 --> 00:00:22,520 pieces all kind of entwined into this because Chris, you and your 12 00:00:22,520 --> 00:00:24,480 team been working on something very, very exciting. 13 00:00:24,920 --> 00:00:27,200 But before we get into that, if someone's listening and 14 00:00:27,200 --> 00:00:30,040 thinking, who are the DMA? Are you just in the UK? 15 00:00:30,040 --> 00:00:32,759 What is, I mean, public affairs sounds like governments and 16 00:00:32,759 --> 00:00:34,240 things. Tell us a bit more about you, a 17 00:00:34,280 --> 00:00:36,520 bit more about your role and what's what the guys at the DMA 18 00:00:36,560 --> 00:00:38,560 actually do and what your involvement in that is. 19 00:00:38,800 --> 00:00:40,360 Sure. Well, the DMA is the data and 20 00:00:40,360 --> 00:00:44,160 marketing association. So we're an industry association 21 00:00:44,160 --> 00:00:47,480 that represents the data and marketing industry and we do 22 00:00:47,480 --> 00:00:50,360 that in a wide range of rates. We are the voice of the industry 23 00:00:50,360 --> 00:00:53,800 to government and regulators, so we work hard to get the 24 00:00:53,800 --> 00:00:57,560 legislation balanced in the right way so that privacy and 25 00:00:57,560 --> 00:01:01,120 innovation achieve the right balance that enables growth, 26 00:01:01,160 --> 00:01:04,440 innovation, development. You, you said something along 27 00:01:04,440 --> 00:01:06,880 the lines of like we might not need cookie banners in the very 28 00:01:06,880 --> 00:01:08,720 near future. And if somebody works in 29 00:01:08,720 --> 00:01:12,000 marketing and I'm looking at the black box of GA 4, the data we 30 00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:17,120 can't actually in actually record before we jump into that 31 00:01:17,120 --> 00:01:18,800 question, because it's a big question. 32 00:01:18,800 --> 00:01:20,800 And I know it's not going to be a yes or no, I'm fully aware of 33 00:01:20,800 --> 00:01:23,200 that. But what, what is the context of 34 00:01:23,200 --> 00:01:25,000 a cookie banner? What is a cookie banner supposed 35 00:01:25,000 --> 00:01:26,280 to do? How is it supposed to work? 36 00:01:26,480 --> 00:01:28,840 And why are they not? I don't know if you use this 37 00:01:28,840 --> 00:01:30,520 phrase, but from my point of view, when I look at how they 38 00:01:30,520 --> 00:01:32,880 work and how people use them, they're not fit for purpose, are 39 00:01:32,880 --> 00:01:33,960 they? They don't really do what 40 00:01:33,960 --> 00:01:36,000 they're supposed to. We'll start with one simple 41 00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:38,040 principle. I think everybody agrees with 42 00:01:38,040 --> 00:01:40,640 what you just said. Everybody I've spoke to in 43 00:01:40,640 --> 00:01:45,760 government, everyone on any side of the political spectrum all 44 00:01:45,760 --> 00:01:48,760 agrees that cookie pop up consent banners are not 45 00:01:48,760 --> 00:01:51,080 fulfilling any purpose whatsoever. 46 00:01:51,400 --> 00:01:55,280 They're interruptive to the customer journey people take, 47 00:01:55,360 --> 00:01:57,880 yes, just to get to where they want to go to. 48 00:01:58,560 --> 00:02:02,800 And that does not constitute consent in any way because it's 49 00:02:02,800 --> 00:02:04,600 not specific and informed consent. 50 00:02:04,600 --> 00:02:08,039 So it's not even real consent under GDP. 51 00:02:08,039 --> 00:02:10,680 And the design of like accept, reject and manage, there's 52 00:02:10,680 --> 00:02:13,400 arguments over what colour they should be, what size should be 53 00:02:13,400 --> 00:02:14,800 the same. Can you just make accept the 54 00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:18,080 bright red colour and tiny tiny little font for like reject or 55 00:02:18,080 --> 00:02:20,120 manage cookies or whatever and say people just trying to get 56 00:02:20,120 --> 00:02:21,760 past the banners aren't they? Exactly. 57 00:02:21,800 --> 00:02:24,760 And so the ultimate objective that that we share with the 58 00:02:24,760 --> 00:02:27,280 government and, and I'll go take you through a little bit 59 00:02:27,280 --> 00:02:30,680 philosophically, the argument that we make is that they are 60 00:02:30,680 --> 00:02:34,640 not fulfilling any purpose of making the individual safer 61 00:02:34,640 --> 00:02:37,800 online when they're interacting with the websites they're doing 62 00:02:37,800 --> 00:02:40,520 business with or the publishers they're engaging with content 63 00:02:40,520 --> 00:02:43,520 with. So it's not serving any purpose 64 00:02:43,520 --> 00:02:45,960 of improving data protection whatsoever. 65 00:02:45,960 --> 00:02:47,640 In fact, it's just annoying people. 66 00:02:48,360 --> 00:02:51,640 And when we look at our whole approach to get in that balance 67 00:02:51,640 --> 00:02:53,840 right, first, we always look at it from the customer's 68 00:02:53,840 --> 00:02:57,200 perspective because we're a marketing trade association and 69 00:02:57,200 --> 00:03:00,240 good marketing always starts with customer first principles. 70 00:03:00,880 --> 00:03:04,680 But interestingly enough, many of the obligations of data 71 00:03:04,680 --> 00:03:08,160 protection legislation are in fact customer first principles 72 00:03:08,160 --> 00:03:11,680 and ask you to think about what your customers doing and how 73 00:03:11,680 --> 00:03:14,120 what you're doing might impact your customer, which is 74 00:03:14,120 --> 00:03:16,640 something marketers should do anyway as a matter of course. 75 00:03:17,200 --> 00:03:21,400 But our guiding spirit and looking at the legislation as a 76 00:03:21,400 --> 00:03:26,880 part of GDPR called recital for. So the recitals in the text tell 77 00:03:26,880 --> 00:03:31,400 you how it should be interpreted and Recital for written by the 78 00:03:31,400 --> 00:03:36,880 EU and adopted by the UK says that data processing should be 79 00:03:36,880 --> 00:03:40,360 designed to serve mankind. And it goes further. 80 00:03:40,360 --> 00:03:44,800 It says privacy is not an absolute right, it's a 81 00:03:44,800 --> 00:03:49,040 fundamental right which must be balanced with other fundamental 82 00:03:49,040 --> 00:03:51,960 rights. And it gives a long list 83 00:03:51,960 --> 00:03:54,400 including the right to conduct a business. 84 00:03:55,320 --> 00:04:01,360 So what we always say is what we do in marketing and advertising 85 00:04:01,680 --> 00:04:03,800 is attracting and retaining customers. 86 00:04:04,520 --> 00:04:08,680 And if a business cannot attract and retain customers, it's not 87 00:04:08,680 --> 00:04:10,720 going to exist as a business without customers. 88 00:04:10,720 --> 00:04:13,040 You don't have a business. Without donors, you don't have a 89 00:04:13,040 --> 00:04:15,800 charity. And so when you look at getting 90 00:04:15,800 --> 00:04:18,959 that balance right between respecting the privacy of your 91 00:04:18,959 --> 00:04:21,800 individual and designing customer experiences that are 92 00:04:21,800 --> 00:04:25,080 right for them, using their data in a, in a way that gives them 93 00:04:25,080 --> 00:04:29,600 value. That's always balanced with the 94 00:04:29,600 --> 00:04:33,800 fact that a business has to be able to attract and retain 95 00:04:33,800 --> 00:04:36,960 customers or a charity has to attract and retain donors. 96 00:04:36,960 --> 00:04:41,200 So that's, that's the philosophy we bring to everything we do and 97 00:04:41,200 --> 00:04:44,400 we use the legislative text to design it. 98 00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:48,960 And then that creates the proportionality that sits at the 99 00:04:48,960 --> 00:04:50,320 heart. And you'll hear a lot of 100 00:04:50,320 --> 00:04:53,240 technical data protection experts talk about data 101 00:04:53,240 --> 00:04:56,440 protection impact assessment, legitimate interest impact 102 00:04:56,440 --> 00:04:58,800 assessments, and all kinds of. Legitimate interest was our way 103 00:04:58,800 --> 00:05:00,560 around it would be to be customers and things which we're 104 00:05:00,560 --> 00:05:02,000 not talking about today. We're talking about e-commerce 105 00:05:02,000 --> 00:05:03,320 and online shopping. But yes. 106 00:05:03,400 --> 00:05:05,320 But we're passionate about legitimate interest. 107 00:05:05,320 --> 00:05:07,120 But I won't sidetrack from the main topic. 108 00:05:07,120 --> 00:05:09,120 I, I will get into a little bit on that. 109 00:05:09,120 --> 00:05:13,480 But the important point is it's about balancing and each company 110 00:05:13,480 --> 00:05:15,280 has to think about what they're doing. 111 00:05:15,280 --> 00:05:18,640 There's no one answer under GDPR. 112 00:05:18,640 --> 00:05:22,080 The answer is you must find the right balance between your right 113 00:05:22,080 --> 00:05:25,960 to conduct a business and the individual's right to privacy 114 00:05:26,080 --> 00:05:29,480 and design it with your particular customer in mind. 115 00:05:29,840 --> 00:05:32,920 Because if you have an older audience like Age UK and the 116 00:05:32,920 --> 00:05:36,520 things you're talking about are very sensitive, health related 117 00:05:36,520 --> 00:05:40,600 issues, finance related issues, then the approach to privacy you 118 00:05:40,600 --> 00:05:44,000 design has to be appropriate to that audience. 119 00:05:44,080 --> 00:05:46,320 But if you're in another business, perhaps your business, 120 00:05:46,320 --> 00:05:50,240 you mentioned B2B digital marketing and advertising, A 121 00:05:50,240 --> 00:05:52,520 Shopify podcast. An advert you're clearly 122 00:05:52,520 --> 00:05:55,320 interested in, whatever this product is, this website, this 123 00:05:55,320 --> 00:05:56,160 brand. And if you're not, you're 124 00:05:56,160 --> 00:05:57,560 welcome to just leave the website. 125 00:05:57,560 --> 00:06:00,040 Say suddenly you look at cookie banners and go, why do we need 126 00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:02,680 that there? And, and, and I would argue you 127 00:06:02,680 --> 00:06:05,520 don't, if you look at that balance and if you look at 128 00:06:06,080 --> 00:06:10,840 legitimate interest, which is another lawful basis in GDP, are 129 00:06:11,800 --> 00:06:16,040 separate to consent but equal in the law, you could do the whole 130 00:06:16,040 --> 00:06:18,680 thing on the basis of legitimate interest because even when 131 00:06:18,680 --> 00:06:21,280 you're using legitimate interest, you need to be 132 00:06:21,280 --> 00:06:23,400 transparent. So you still need to tell people 133 00:06:23,400 --> 00:06:26,080 what you're doing in the privacy policy. 134 00:06:26,840 --> 00:06:31,480 You need to give people an opportunity to object, but not 135 00:06:31,480 --> 00:06:34,520 in the form of a banner asking consent in advance in the form 136 00:06:34,520 --> 00:06:37,480 of I don't like what you're doing, I want you to stop. 137 00:06:37,680 --> 00:06:40,320 Delete my data. Or delete your data and and have 138 00:06:40,320 --> 00:06:43,960 some control. And we think that's ultimately 139 00:06:44,160 --> 00:06:48,120 the right balance. So to come to your question, the 140 00:06:48,120 --> 00:06:52,840 DUA Act starts that journey where the government wants to 141 00:06:52,840 --> 00:06:57,040 get to a point where we don't need consent pop up banners for 142 00:06:57,040 --> 00:06:59,720 digital, for in in the digital space, which is great news. 143 00:06:59,720 --> 00:07:03,720 And we don't yeah, yeah. And so Duo Act has a down 144 00:07:03,720 --> 00:07:07,000 payment, if you will. It has the first extension of 145 00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:11,640 exemptions to consent things that you can do without consent. 146 00:07:11,880 --> 00:07:14,480 And that that's what you lobbied the government about in June 147 00:07:14,480 --> 00:07:16,760 last year, I think it was, where they have finally approved it 148 00:07:16,760 --> 00:07:18,000 and it came into force in January. 149 00:07:18,000 --> 00:07:20,720 Is that correct? Yeah, the IT got royal assent. 150 00:07:21,920 --> 00:07:24,000 I think it was June 19th. I love that phrase. 151 00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:26,720 It was the day we were speaking. It was the day we were speaking 152 00:07:26,720 --> 00:07:28,480 at that Digital Impact event. So I remember. 153 00:07:28,480 --> 00:07:30,520 You got a text halfway through your talk and I was like, I like 154 00:07:30,520 --> 00:07:32,800 this guy. Like he's he's on the money. 155 00:07:32,960 --> 00:07:38,240 And the Implementation Act that on this part of, of, of the bill 156 00:07:39,280 --> 00:07:41,600 went into effect Feb, Feb, Feb 5th. 157 00:07:41,920 --> 00:07:44,880 So the things that I'm talking about have gone in into effect 158 00:07:44,880 --> 00:07:48,800 Feb 5th. And, and the exemptions that 159 00:07:48,880 --> 00:07:52,960 that have been added are things like statistical and analytics 160 00:07:52,960 --> 00:07:57,320 purposes or appearances and functional cookies. 161 00:07:57,320 --> 00:08:00,320 So things that help your, your page render correctly and things 162 00:08:00,320 --> 00:08:02,520 like that. So operational and, and 163 00:08:02,520 --> 00:08:06,240 emergency assistance and, and strictly necessary. 164 00:08:06,840 --> 00:08:11,880 And it had been our hope that a whole group of companies, 165 00:08:12,880 --> 00:08:16,760 especially companies, e-commerce players who are not advertising, 166 00:08:16,760 --> 00:08:22,160 supported B to B websites, charities that don't take 167 00:08:22,160 --> 00:08:26,560 advertising, that that would be enough to make them exempt from 168 00:08:26,560 --> 00:08:28,760 banners. But unfortunately, with this 169 00:08:28,760 --> 00:08:31,880 topic, it's extraordinarily complex. 170 00:08:32,760 --> 00:08:35,200 There's always another layer of complexity. 171 00:08:35,200 --> 00:08:37,880 And as we've worked through with the ICO, the Information 172 00:08:37,880 --> 00:08:41,080 Commissioner's Office who has been consulting on their 173 00:08:41,080 --> 00:08:43,280 guidance, there's things we disagree. 174 00:08:43,280 --> 00:08:46,400 They've taken quite a a narrow interpretation. 175 00:08:46,400 --> 00:08:48,920 Language than you'll use today when we first spoke and there 176 00:08:48,920 --> 00:08:53,200 wasn't a camera. Work very closely with them and 177 00:08:53,320 --> 00:08:55,840 we have a very, very good relationship with them. 178 00:08:55,960 --> 00:09:00,400 But, but and and we fed in to the consultation process. 179 00:09:00,680 --> 00:09:04,480 But suffice it to say, I don't think we're going to have as 180 00:09:04,480 --> 00:09:08,360 many companies exempt from cookie consent banners at this 181 00:09:08,360 --> 00:09:10,880 stage as we would have liked, just because of various 182 00:09:10,880 --> 00:09:14,080 technical complexities. And we'll come on to one of 183 00:09:14,080 --> 00:09:16,360 those in a minute as well that I flagged saying this is something 184 00:09:16,360 --> 00:09:18,560 we install, we'll have to set up, which is about Google, 185 00:09:18,880 --> 00:09:20,200 Google consent. And we'll talk about Google 186 00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:23,040 consent in a minute. And just to bring kind of what 187 00:09:23,680 --> 00:09:25,880 Chris is incredibly technical. It was one reason I wanted you 188 00:09:25,880 --> 00:09:28,480 on is you, you're qualified to talk about this stuff in terms 189 00:09:28,480 --> 00:09:31,480 of what we can and can't do. I'm sitting on the other side of 190 00:09:31,480 --> 00:09:33,840 the fence almost from you with like the, the user case. 191 00:09:33,840 --> 00:09:36,280 So I'm the one who's sitting there going that blooming cookie 192 00:09:36,280 --> 00:09:38,000 banner. If people like so many people 193 00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:39,880 click and reject because we followed the letter of the 194 00:09:39,880 --> 00:09:43,160 European law on this and like the accept and reject buttons of 195 00:09:43,160 --> 00:09:46,600 the same size, same colour and, and reject, I think had to be 196 00:09:46,600 --> 00:09:48,560 first. One of our clients hired a 197 00:09:48,560 --> 00:09:50,760 lawyer who said that, you know, a legal expert, this is what it 198 00:09:50,760 --> 00:09:52,880 needs to do. And we did that and suddenly we 199 00:09:52,880 --> 00:09:55,200 lost 40% of our data. So when it comes back to you 200 00:09:55,200 --> 00:09:58,000 guys and where all of this I think is incredibly important 201 00:09:58,000 --> 00:10:00,240 is, and this is where I think the biggest issue that you've 202 00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:03,520 flagged and the biggest issue I see is it is so blooming 203 00:10:03,560 --> 00:10:06,640 complicated. And how is a small Shopify store 204 00:10:06,640 --> 00:10:08,560 with maybe you're working on your own, maybe you've got three 205 00:10:08,560 --> 00:10:09,960 or four staff. And like you said earlier, 206 00:10:10,280 --> 00:10:13,160 you're busy enough trying to get another sailing, get some 207 00:10:13,160 --> 00:10:15,240 revenue in, pay the bills, decide. 208 00:10:15,240 --> 00:10:17,720 We've got 400 products, only 15 of them are selling. 209 00:10:17,840 --> 00:10:19,280 We've got some decisions to make here. 210 00:10:19,520 --> 00:10:22,480 You're so busy and bogged down with those basic simple things, 211 00:10:22,480 --> 00:10:24,000 you don't have time for any of this. 212 00:10:24,400 --> 00:10:27,280 And actually there should just be a this is my set up and 213 00:10:27,280 --> 00:10:29,480 someone goes, you need this, but there's not. 214 00:10:29,480 --> 00:10:32,440 And it's with all the best intention of protecting customer 215 00:10:32,440 --> 00:10:34,680 rights, protecting customer. I mean, the average person 216 00:10:34,680 --> 00:10:35,760 doesn't even know what a cookie is. 217 00:10:36,120 --> 00:10:37,520 They don't even know what the cookie banner does. 218 00:10:37,680 --> 00:10:39,160 They don't know why it's there. And as you said right at the 219 00:10:39,160 --> 00:10:40,840 start, they're not fit for purpose at all. 220 00:10:40,840 --> 00:10:43,280 And again, you're allowed to say things like there's no purpose 221 00:10:43,280 --> 00:10:45,400 of a cookie banner. I don't have the technical know 222 00:10:45,400 --> 00:10:48,240 how the legal backing test. Well, if you think what the the 223 00:10:48,480 --> 00:10:51,960 original intent was and why and and and that part of data 224 00:10:51,960 --> 00:10:53,960 protection laws and what's called the privacy and 225 00:10:53,960 --> 00:10:56,200 electronic communication regulations, which are 226 00:10:56,200 --> 00:10:58,040 additional. Regulation names, don't they 227 00:10:58,040 --> 00:11:00,520 that. Apply to, to basically 228 00:11:00,520 --> 00:11:06,240 electronic channels and not always digital ones because they 229 00:11:06,240 --> 00:11:09,040 also apply to telephone, for instance, which is an electronic 230 00:11:09,040 --> 00:11:13,160 data-driven channel that pre predates the digital era. 231 00:11:13,160 --> 00:11:17,800 But the idea, a fundamental principle that we believe in, 232 00:11:17,800 --> 00:11:20,120 that the legislation captures this transparency. 233 00:11:20,120 --> 00:11:23,400 People need to roughly have an idea of what's going to happen 234 00:11:23,400 --> 00:11:26,480 with their data. They need to be able to make a 235 00:11:26,480 --> 00:11:29,320 judgement as to whether they trust the company who they're 236 00:11:29,320 --> 00:11:32,200 sharing data with and they expect you to believe in a 237 00:11:32,200 --> 00:11:37,040 certain way. So the cookie consent banners 238 00:11:37,040 --> 00:11:40,160 are designed to give people transparency to understand 239 00:11:40,160 --> 00:11:43,360 what's happening. But then if you say what you 240 00:11:43,360 --> 00:11:47,080 just said, that it's so complex, nobody understands it, and 241 00:11:47,080 --> 00:11:49,720 nobody even understands what an identifier is in their. 242 00:11:49,760 --> 00:11:52,280 Business there, there is all. Kinds of different because 243 00:11:52,280 --> 00:11:54,400 there's first party, cookie, second party cookie, third 244 00:11:54,400 --> 00:11:56,520 party. I know I'm giving you a nice 245 00:11:56,520 --> 00:11:58,040 segue and good. Thank you, Chris. 246 00:11:59,400 --> 00:12:05,160 But yeah, the consumer doesn't understand, you know, and it 247 00:12:05,160 --> 00:12:07,800 doesn't give them transparency. If you don't understand 248 00:12:07,800 --> 00:12:09,520 something, it's not giving you the transparency. 249 00:12:09,520 --> 00:12:12,920 The transparency that people need is at a level higher, and 250 00:12:12,920 --> 00:12:15,240 they need to know that. You're going to collect some 251 00:12:15,240 --> 00:12:17,880 information about me that I'm going to share with you. 252 00:12:17,880 --> 00:12:20,640 You're going to look at my behavioral actions on your 253 00:12:20,640 --> 00:12:24,880 website to see which products I want to look at, what I put in 254 00:12:24,880 --> 00:12:28,920 my basket but maybe didn't buy and then for. 255 00:12:28,920 --> 00:12:32,200 Me, it's vital if we, if we know that we start making big 256 00:12:32,200 --> 00:12:34,560 decisions of like people are adding to cart and not 257 00:12:34,560 --> 00:12:36,360 purchasing. I had a situation on Friday with 258 00:12:36,360 --> 00:12:38,880 a client where we had perspective over some of that 259 00:12:38,880 --> 00:12:41,680 data, not all of it, but the data we could see people adding 260 00:12:41,680 --> 00:12:44,480 to basket and not purchasing. So then we looked at what do you 261 00:12:44,480 --> 00:12:46,720 learn when you reach the checkout that you didn't learn 262 00:12:46,720 --> 00:12:48,840 when you added to cart. And the thing you learn is the 263 00:12:48,840 --> 00:12:51,760 cost of shipping and it was free over a certain point. 264 00:12:51,800 --> 00:12:53,360 So we've now lowered that threshold. 265 00:12:53,640 --> 00:12:56,000 That was on Friday last week, and it's which recording this on 266 00:12:56,000 --> 00:12:59,480 a Tuesday, Monday and Sunday were their best day of sales, 267 00:12:59,480 --> 00:13:01,160 the highest conversion rate they've had for years. 268 00:13:01,480 --> 00:13:02,720 Right. So that comes down to the 269 00:13:02,720 --> 00:13:05,200 fundamental principle that I mentioned earlier, that's the 270 00:13:05,200 --> 00:13:07,680 right to conduct a business. Yeah, you have the right. 271 00:13:07,680 --> 00:13:10,960 And what the government wants or they talk about, they say they 272 00:13:10,960 --> 00:13:13,640 want is growth and improved productivity. 273 00:13:13,640 --> 00:13:15,200 Yeah. 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Dot com to learn more and grab 296 00:14:30,160 --> 00:14:34,520 your discount. It's spam, it's junk, it's 297 00:14:34,520 --> 00:14:36,360 irrelevant. They're not interested. 298 00:14:36,520 --> 00:14:40,200 They unsubscribe from your emails, they go to another 299 00:14:40,200 --> 00:14:42,040 website. And today a marketing. 300 00:14:42,040 --> 00:14:44,200 Lesson for all of us across the board, regardless of what we're 301 00:14:44,200 --> 00:14:46,520 talking about today, it's just don't put irrelevant stuff in 302 00:14:46,520 --> 00:14:48,880 front of the wrong people. Well, and and let's face it, the 303 00:14:48,920 --> 00:14:51,360 the biggest challenge for Business Today is in the digital 304 00:14:51,360 --> 00:14:53,560 era, the consumer has all the power. 305 00:14:53,880 --> 00:14:57,560 So one of the fundamental approaches of the privacy 306 00:14:57,560 --> 00:15:02,840 activists is to think the consumer is lacking in 307 00:15:02,840 --> 00:15:05,720 knowledge, unable to take care of themselves and needs all the 308 00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:07,560 protection from these laws and so on. 309 00:15:07,960 --> 00:15:10,320 But actually people know if they're not happy with a 310 00:15:10,320 --> 00:15:13,200 company, how to shame them on social media if. 311 00:15:13,440 --> 00:15:16,480 Oh, don't we all? If your customer service is. 312 00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:19,600 Rob One star review post on social Yeah, Reddit. 313 00:15:19,600 --> 00:15:22,640 If you're not happy, you can comparison shop at the touch of 314 00:15:22,640 --> 00:15:25,680 a little search. AI enabled search these days. 315 00:15:25,840 --> 00:15:28,200 Or a plug in on Chrome and it just sees the product and goes 316 00:15:28,200 --> 00:15:29,440 find this product in other places. 317 00:15:29,440 --> 00:15:30,240 Check. Reviews. 318 00:15:30,240 --> 00:15:33,360 Write reviews. All of those things consumer has 319 00:15:33,400 --> 00:15:37,560 immense power in this day and age and what they want is for 320 00:15:37,560 --> 00:15:39,880 you. They don't object to companies 321 00:15:39,880 --> 00:15:43,360 using information to give them a better experience. 322 00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:47,320 They certainly don't object if you think of loyalty programs 323 00:15:47,760 --> 00:15:51,800 where you're getting value in the form of discount savings. 2 324 00:15:51,800 --> 00:15:53,480 for one offer. For your custom, yeah, yeah. 325 00:15:53,480 --> 00:15:57,840 But on things you actually buy as opposed to the old day pre 326 00:15:57,840 --> 00:16:02,200 data pre digital, you got lots of random offers through. 327 00:16:02,480 --> 00:16:05,720 The mailbox the. Mailbox potentially that were 328 00:16:05,720 --> 00:16:08,720 about things you might have no interest even in sampling for 329 00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:12,480 20P off. But if you like Brussels 330 00:16:12,480 --> 00:16:18,600 sprouts, say and you are allergic to OK, OK, what's your 331 00:16:18,600 --> 00:16:20,320 favorite vegetable? Nate, give me your favorite. 332 00:16:20,320 --> 00:16:21,800 Parrots. I'm all I'm all into carrots. 333 00:16:21,840 --> 00:16:23,600 OK, you're in. And what's your least favorite 334 00:16:23,600 --> 00:16:24,880 vegetable? Probably a Brussels sprout. 335 00:16:25,160 --> 00:16:27,840 OK, OK. So if I give you 2 for one on 336 00:16:27,840 --> 00:16:30,360 Brussels sprouts, it's not going to make any difference. 337 00:16:30,920 --> 00:16:34,440 But if I say because you're such a great customer of mine, I'm 338 00:16:34,520 --> 00:16:37,040 going to give you 2 for one on carrots because you frequently 339 00:16:37,040 --> 00:16:40,240 buy carrots that's useful to you, that's valuable. 340 00:16:40,520 --> 00:16:43,520 It incentivize used to remain with that retailer because 341 00:16:43,520 --> 00:16:45,240 they've taken the time to get to know you. 342 00:16:45,240 --> 00:16:48,840 They've taken the time to look at your shopping habits that and 343 00:16:48,880 --> 00:16:53,160 and people want that experience, but they don't really need to 344 00:16:53,160 --> 00:16:57,440 know the technical details at what level that you discovered 345 00:16:57,720 --> 00:16:59,960 because it's a type of cookie, but it means that there was a 346 00:16:59,960 --> 00:17:02,120 product in the shopping cart. They don't need to know 347 00:17:02,120 --> 00:17:04,920 technically how you did that and have visibility at that. 348 00:17:04,920 --> 00:17:06,920 But the business needs to collect some level of data to do 349 00:17:06,920 --> 00:17:08,040 that as well, which is your point. 350 00:17:08,040 --> 00:17:10,800 So I think it's yeah, I, I can see what you guys are trying to 351 00:17:10,800 --> 00:17:12,319 do. And I mean, thank the Lord that 352 00:17:12,319 --> 00:17:14,920 you exist because a lot of countries don't have ADMA or 353 00:17:14,920 --> 00:17:16,839 someone similar yourself lobbying the government about 354 00:17:16,839 --> 00:17:18,760 rules. And let's go back to the 355 00:17:18,760 --> 00:17:21,640 question about cookies, though. First party, third party. 356 00:17:21,960 --> 00:17:24,160 And I said to you on when we were getting ready to say what 357 00:17:24,160 --> 00:17:26,000 about second party? And you were like, oh, I did. 358 00:17:26,599 --> 00:17:28,560 We'll come say answer that in a second, but first. 359 00:17:28,760 --> 00:17:31,400 When I was your age, it was all first and third party data, 360 00:17:31,600 --> 00:17:34,000 first and third party cookies. What is first party? 361 00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:35,760 What is third party? When people are like, right? 362 00:17:35,800 --> 00:17:37,280 Tell me more, Chris. I need to know a bit more about 363 00:17:37,280 --> 00:17:38,400 this. I have to make decisions as a 364 00:17:38,400 --> 00:17:40,320 business. So let me give you the broader 365 00:17:40,560 --> 00:17:44,160 definition in terms of data overall, and then I'll, I'll 366 00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:47,320 apply it to cookies because it's exactly the same thing. 367 00:17:47,320 --> 00:17:50,960 OK, so first party data is collected, data collected by you 368 00:17:51,320 --> 00:17:55,480 on your customer, on your website, through your forms or 369 00:17:55,480 --> 00:17:58,200 whatever methods to check out. Translate information, they give 370 00:17:58,200 --> 00:17:58,960 it to you. OK. 371 00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:03,000 Second party data is 1 collected by a partner, but you have a 372 00:18:03,120 --> 00:18:05,920 simple relationship with. So for instance, think of an 373 00:18:05,920 --> 00:18:10,400 airline mileage program where you have car companies, hotels, 374 00:18:11,400 --> 00:18:14,840 airlines collaborating together and they need to combine the 375 00:18:14,840 --> 00:18:17,520 points that you earn from each of those partners. 376 00:18:17,520 --> 00:18:19,160 So they're sharing and collaborating. 377 00:18:20,480 --> 00:18:23,560 And then third party data is collected by an aggregator, 378 00:18:23,840 --> 00:18:25,720 someone, someone outside of that. 379 00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:29,840 So if you apply that, and I can go into more detail, but I think 380 00:18:29,840 --> 00:18:33,200 if you apply that to cookies, you have first party cookies. 381 00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:36,800 Those are ones created and stored directly by the website 382 00:18:36,800 --> 00:18:41,920 you are currently visiting. And that's where we hoped the 383 00:18:42,040 --> 00:18:44,520 exemption to consent for statistical would mean that 384 00:18:44,520 --> 00:18:48,360 websites only collecting first party data on on their website 385 00:18:48,360 --> 00:18:50,760 with first party would be exempt from cookie banners. 386 00:18:51,640 --> 00:18:57,440 Then you have second party cookies, which are, AH, not 387 00:18:57,440 --> 00:19:00,800 technically a distinct technical file type, but rather first 388 00:19:00,800 --> 00:19:03,520 party data shared between two partners. 389 00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:07,680 So you've got a specific relationship, say, between that 390 00:19:07,680 --> 00:19:10,840 airline and that hotel company and they're sharing data to give 391 00:19:10,840 --> 00:19:13,800 you more opportunities to save money or get. 392 00:19:13,800 --> 00:19:15,960 That's a cookie. Almost collected data by another 393 00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:18,240 party, but it's been granted access to you, Correct. 394 00:19:18,240 --> 00:19:19,680 You've got it. Second party, yeah. 395 00:19:20,280 --> 00:19:23,240 And then you have third party cookies, which are domains 396 00:19:23,240 --> 00:19:26,800 created other than the one the user is currently visiting, like 397 00:19:26,800 --> 00:19:29,560 ad networks, social media trackers and whatever. 398 00:19:29,560 --> 00:19:31,560 And they again the social media trackers. 399 00:19:31,560 --> 00:19:33,600 Giving you information as to how somebody is. 400 00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:35,280 So I'm trying to work out from my side. 401 00:19:35,280 --> 00:19:37,840 Like again, you're very technical and I'm I'm a bit 402 00:19:37,840 --> 00:19:39,720 more, what does the website look like? 403 00:19:39,920 --> 00:19:42,680 So the third party one would be like if somebody engaged with an 404 00:19:42,680 --> 00:19:45,520 advert still on like the publishers website, they haven't 405 00:19:45,520 --> 00:19:47,880 come to your store yet. They're not on your Shopify site 406 00:19:47,880 --> 00:19:50,200 yet, but you're getting some data of how many people have 407 00:19:50,280 --> 00:19:52,000 like seen that advert, for example. 408 00:19:52,040 --> 00:19:54,040 That's data that didn't happen on your side, but would be third 409 00:19:54,040 --> 00:19:59,440 party. Yes, or the ad network has 410 00:19:59,440 --> 00:20:04,040 placed a cookie and you want to on your website as part of that 411 00:20:04,040 --> 00:20:07,440 process of getting there and helping enable results because 412 00:20:07,680 --> 00:20:11,280 they need to collect the data sometimes for the commercial 413 00:20:11,280 --> 00:20:15,920 relationship between the place the ad was seen. 414 00:20:17,720 --> 00:20:21,760 And and the advertiser. So you're taking bringing people 415 00:20:21,760 --> 00:20:24,160 to your website. You've clicked, someone has 416 00:20:24,160 --> 00:20:26,520 clicked on a banner on someone else's website. 417 00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:31,120 There will be a third party cookie of some sort on your 418 00:20:31,120 --> 00:20:35,880 website that would enable that other company to know whether 419 00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:39,520 you bought something or that the click has gotten to you because 420 00:20:39,520 --> 00:20:42,920 you have to measure all of that. And they may be transaction 421 00:20:42,920 --> 00:20:47,120 between the advertiser and the publisher that but you're you're 422 00:20:47,120 --> 00:20:51,800 the person that the customer has landed on and for your 423 00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:55,320 relationship with the customer, they and you don't don't need to 424 00:20:55,320 --> 00:21:01,680 know that, but you need to pay the website where you place the 425 00:21:01,680 --> 00:21:02,920 ad. Exactly and. 426 00:21:02,920 --> 00:21:06,080 If you've got a cost per click or a cost per sale or that kind 427 00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:07,760 of relationship, so there's going to be 1/3. 428 00:21:07,760 --> 00:21:10,720 Which are fundamental to making profit from advertising. 429 00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:14,320 We should again, back to your point of why actually we don't 430 00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:16,800 need to ask, you know, if we have to ask customers for 431 00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:19,520 permission to that and they say no, there's an enormous 432 00:21:19,520 --> 00:21:21,360 commercial disadvantage to the business and possibly a 433 00:21:21,360 --> 00:21:23,440 detrimental 1. The amount of businesses that 434 00:21:23,440 --> 00:21:26,160 rely on advertising from Meta and Google alone to to run their 435 00:21:26,160 --> 00:21:30,600 entire business is incredible. So my, my, my argument would be 436 00:21:31,280 --> 00:21:33,520 your website where people are coming to because they were 437 00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:39,040 attracted by your ad, you from that point on should only be 438 00:21:39,040 --> 00:21:42,720 dealing in first party data and the consumer really doesn't have 439 00:21:42,720 --> 00:21:46,120 any interest in the transaction that took place where you paid 440 00:21:46,120 --> 00:21:49,280 somebody to place your ad and bring them to you. 441 00:21:49,600 --> 00:21:56,120 So I would exempt all of that and only the website that had 442 00:21:56,120 --> 00:21:59,320 the advertising should need to explain what happens. 443 00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:02,200 Because if someone needs to know, they need to know. 444 00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:04,720 If I click on an ad on your website, I'm going to go to 445 00:22:04,720 --> 00:22:08,240 another website and there's become some form of processing 446 00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:11,720 so that I can get paid for the ad appearing on my website. 447 00:22:12,320 --> 00:22:16,560 But for you there should be, in my view, not the IC OS view and 448 00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:19,240 not yet the government's view. But you're working. 449 00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:22,320 But this is this is where you get very technical and where the 450 00:22:22,360 --> 00:22:26,360 intent that we had of reducing the number of pop up banners 451 00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:31,600 becomes more difficult because the rules would state that you 452 00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:35,680 have to let people know about that third party and get consent 453 00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:37,480 for it. But the consents already 454 00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:39,320 happened somewhere else already. Yeah. 455 00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:43,400 But anyway, our view is all of that should be based on 456 00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:46,120 legitimate interest in Due. Course, and you've just reminded 457 00:22:46,120 --> 00:22:49,360 me as well with with those third party, that third party data, 458 00:22:49,360 --> 00:22:52,200 third party cookies, two of the most, I think there were two in 459 00:22:52,200 --> 00:22:54,640 the top five most used cookie banners on Shopify. 460 00:22:54,920 --> 00:22:56,920 So a lot of people to do the cook to make try to make it 461 00:22:56,920 --> 00:22:59,480 easier. They just pay like 5 lbs or $5 a 462 00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:01,160 month or whatever to have a cookie banner app. 463 00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:03,240 They just pay a small subscription and someone's made 464 00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:05,520 the banner for them. They click a button and it 465 00:23:05,680 --> 00:23:08,360 paying $5 a month puts the banner now on their website and 466 00:23:08,360 --> 00:23:09,760 it manages all the cookies for them. 467 00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:12,840 In the code of the website, two of the top five. 468 00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:17,400 When the cookie banner shows to a customer, it says how many 469 00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:21,160 third party people data is being shared to, and it is always in 470 00:23:21,160 --> 00:23:23,320 the hundreds, sometimes the thousands. 471 00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:25,680 And we've run tests on sites to go. 472 00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:28,720 When we use that banner that displays that number of 473 00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:31,440 hundreds, sometimes thousands of people that are going to get 474 00:23:31,440 --> 00:23:34,720 this data, guess what happens? We've paid for somebody to click 475 00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:36,600 on an advert. They've come into the site, seen 476 00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:39,040 that banner and left. We're just making a flat 477 00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:41,040 commercial loss. But the customer was 478 00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:43,000 legitimately interested in the product because they clicked on 479 00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:45,600 an advert that had the price, the image, the title of that 480 00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:47,800 product. They saw that phone case or that 481 00:23:47,800 --> 00:23:49,480 new watch and said that looks fantastic. 482 00:23:49,480 --> 00:23:51,280 I really want to buy that item. Click through it. 483 00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:54,000 We're going to give my and and they don't know what it means. 484 00:23:54,240 --> 00:23:56,120 So people's assumption is you're going to give my e-mail address 485 00:23:56,120 --> 00:23:58,200 and phone number to 1000 different companies? 486 00:23:58,400 --> 00:23:59,720 And that's not. What is going to? 487 00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:02,160 Happen. And that, that, yeah, speaks to 488 00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:10,040 challenges that that, you know, we, we don't specifically work 489 00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:15,320 on and the whole programmatic advertising supply chain because 490 00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:20,040 you've got all these companies bidding for eyeballs and 491 00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:23,680 everybody wants to bid on certain pages and that's why the 492 00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:25,400 packets are going out. But that's part of the 493 00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:28,800 advertising process. And where we were very, very 494 00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:33,320 much wanting to focus the effect of the exemptions was on those 495 00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:38,240 websites that don't take advertising, that are pureplay 496 00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:40,920 e-commerce companies like probably most of the Shopify 497 00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:42,320 audience. And they're seeing that banner I 498 00:24:42,320 --> 00:24:45,080 just described. And they may be using digital 499 00:24:45,080 --> 00:24:48,400 advertising to drive traffic to their website, but they're not 500 00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:52,640 involved except as someone who's trying to get customers. 501 00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:57,520 So that really shouldn't happen. Yeah, I agree on your website. 502 00:24:57,520 --> 00:24:59,080 Yeah. Yeah, it should happen. 503 00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:02,520 If you want to know what that publishers doing and how they're 504 00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:05,520 getting business and how advertisers, you know, but 505 00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:07,680 that's the part that that scares consumers. 506 00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:10,800 You're absolutely right. If I said to you when you visit 507 00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:13,960 a web page, 10,000 companies are going to bid on your eyeballs. 508 00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:19,400 And then you're like, Oh my God, 10,000 companies. 509 00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:25,800 No, I just went to, you know, a website A and I was doing 510 00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:28,480 something, I saw something that caught my attention that the 511 00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:30,680 website BI. Wish I'd got permission from one 512 00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:33,200 of my clients who's just put one of those banners on to share the 513 00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:34,360 stats. Apologies, I haven't guys. 514 00:25:34,360 --> 00:25:36,760 If I, if I get that, I'll put up one of the Tuesday tea break 515 00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:38,920 talks. But just the drop in revenue was 516 00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:40,680 insane. And then they, they were like, 517 00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:42,360 what's going wrong though? It must be our marketing is our 518 00:25:42,360 --> 00:25:44,520 SEO fall in, is our e-mail campaigns not performing? 519 00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:45,520 Is there a technical issue on the site? 520 00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:47,760 I was like, and we sort of looked at it for about an hour 521 00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:50,240 and eventually we're like, you change the cookie banner, It's 522 00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:52,240 the you put the new kick as we put the old banner back on and 523 00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:54,440 revenue went back up. And it's like, we're just, we're 524 00:25:54,440 --> 00:25:56,280 not annoying people. But also what was the damage of 525 00:25:56,280 --> 00:25:59,800 the few days when the new one was live for, of returning 526 00:25:59,800 --> 00:26:02,080 customers going, I'm never shopping with those guys again. 527 00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:03,440 They share my data with 1000 people. 528 00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:06,960 It's like, no, we're not there. No, it's not, it's not how it 529 00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:08,200 works. That's not the situation. 530 00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:09,840 And we're certainly not sharing your e-mail address and phone 531 00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:13,080 number. So I guess the big question and 532 00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:14,480 you've, you've covered this quite a lot. 533 00:26:15,360 --> 00:26:19,920 Can, can they now or soon? Can retailers, we start with the 534 00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:21,920 UK, Can they get rid of cookie banners? 535 00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:23,040 Do they still need a cookie banner? 536 00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:24,600 Do they still need a cookie banner? 537 00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:27,240 But it doesn't need to. But whether people accept or 538 00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:29,400 reject GA 4 and things can keep running. 539 00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:32,600 So the business has got data like where are we today at the 540 00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:37,840 time of recording in March 2026? Yeah, I think, I think if you're 541 00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:42,680 a pureplay e-commerce company that is collecting first party 542 00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:46,520 data for your own use, first party cookies and you're 543 00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:49,400 managing the experience for the benefit of your customers in 544 00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:54,760 your business. We had hoped that you would be 545 00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:59,040 exempt from banners. But because of use cases like 546 00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:01,920 the one we were just talking about or perhaps your social 547 00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:06,000 media plugins or other things in the way the legislation is 548 00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:09,240 currently constructed, you probably still need some consent 549 00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:13,480 banners, but covering less things, not covering, say, the 550 00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:19,320 statistics for your own website. But then again, the ICO is 551 00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:22,560 making in their draft guidance, not final guidance. 552 00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:26,440 OK, distinctions that we weren't anticipating. 553 00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:28,640 So I know one of the questions you want to ask me later on is 554 00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:30,400 about e-mail, but I'll jump there. 555 00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:34,000 Yeah, let's get to that in the interrupt because one of the 556 00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:38,000 identifiers in an e-mail that's similar to a cookie, a little 557 00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:43,160 pixel, Yeah, that tracks open rate and the open rate tracking 558 00:27:43,680 --> 00:27:47,040 such an important statistic and it should be exempt from consent 559 00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:50,400 under this legislation. That was our understanding and 560 00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:54,240 the ICO has gotten part way there in the sense that if 561 00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:57,440 you're using the aggregated statistics, say if you have a 562 00:27:57,440 --> 00:28:01,160 great e-mail campaign and you have 40% open rate and you know 563 00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:06,040 40% have opened and six it, at that level, they're saying fine, 564 00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:09,040 you don't need consent. It's absolutely OK and normal, 565 00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:13,240 but then what you want to do as a good e-commerce player has 566 00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:18,840 sent a follow up to people who did not open and they're saying 567 00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:23,080 that once you take that follow up behavioral action, it does 568 00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:27,000 need consent. Now our argument and we 569 00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:30,200 submitted on behalf of our members in response to the 570 00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:34,520 consultation would be that no, you shouldn't if that action, if 571 00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:38,560 that pixel, if that tracking of open rate is a statistical 572 00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:41,720 purpose that is exempt from consent, then you should track 573 00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:44,000 all the way through because otherwise, of course, you're 574 00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:46,040 never going to get rid of banners. 575 00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:47,600 And as I said at the beginning, this. 576 00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:49,600 Is post e-mail sign up though? So there's there's been a level 577 00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:51,320 of consent already. Yeah, or. 578 00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:53,520 Have their e-mail address on. Or you're operated on a 579 00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:57,000 legitimate interest based on a, on a soft opt in e-mail software 580 00:28:57,000 --> 00:29:00,560 basis to people who are your existing customers, but they 581 00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:03,120 will be your customers. So you will have collected data 582 00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:06,480 through the course of a transaction and you're allowed 583 00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:08,000 to. And the great thing about 584 00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:14,080 e-mail, and this is a good piece of legislation, it mandates that 585 00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:18,640 you have an unsubscribe link. So if I'm getting upset about my 586 00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:21,240 e-mail, I just click on subscribe. 587 00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:23,280 It's so easy. And we've come a long way from 588 00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:26,560 the days where companies try to avoid recognize. 589 00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:28,320 So you don't have to open a browser, you just click the 590 00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:30,200 unsubscribe link and it sends an e-mail to there. 591 00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:32,920 And you got to confirm, confirm you get in a landing page saying 592 00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:35,440 you're now unsubscribed. Or you might have some people 593 00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:38,360 who try a little bit harder and say, Are you sure that you meant 594 00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:39,320 to answer? Do you really? 595 00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:43,120 Or you let me know if you change your mind and all that but. 596 00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:44,800 There might have been a clear answer to this. 597 00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:48,200 I might have misunderstood the process but so somebody sends. 598 00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:50,360 So you send an e-mail and you can see the open rate and the 599 00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:53,680 non open rate of that e-mail, which is fine, but the ICO 600 00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:56,200 saying you you therefore need consent to then start emailing 601 00:29:56,200 --> 00:29:57,880 the people again who didn't open it. 602 00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:01,120 When you have follow up action. Yeah, with the follow up action, 603 00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:03,080 where are they supposed? Where's the customer supposed to 604 00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:04,920 have given consent? Like do you have to send them an 605 00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:07,320 e-mail first saying do I consent to e-mail you? 606 00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:08,600 Well, if you didn't open the last e-mail. 607 00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:11,120 You would cover that consent when they first come to your 608 00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:14,840 website in your cookie pop up. Gotcha, because you're supposed 609 00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:18,240 to serve a pop up banner. OK, notifying all the things you 610 00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:19,920 need to ask. Because at that moment, it's 611 00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:21,720 like, well, we're kind of stuffed if we haven't asked at 612 00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:23,320 this moment. Yeah, but you would have asked 613 00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:25,880 and you would have placed a cookie and they and you'll be, 614 00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:28,200 you'll be able to know the relationship. 615 00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:30,720 But that information therefore needs to be stored in the e-mail 616 00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:33,000 platform. So the e-mail platform knows if 617 00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:35,840 you can send a follow up or not at the point in which they click 618 00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:37,760 the cookie banner, which is separate to them signing up to 619 00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:38,600 the newsletter. The. 620 00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:42,280 Consent manner but but the point is without getting into too much 621 00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:43,960 detail. It's ridiculous, yeah. 622 00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:48,720 If if the intent of the government, if the intent of the 623 00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:51,880 legislation, if the intent of industry, if all the use cases 624 00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:55,360 we've just spoken about in which the consumer doesn't understand 625 00:30:55,360 --> 00:30:57,920 a word of it and it just confuses them and doesn't help 626 00:30:57,920 --> 00:31:05,800 them have more privacy, then carry the exemption to consent 627 00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:13,840 all the way through. Because if I if if you send me a 628 00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:19,400 follow up e-mail that says you didn't open my last e-mail. 629 00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:20,760 Here's a reminder. Are we? 630 00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:25,160 Still friends and. And if that upsets you, just 631 00:31:25,160 --> 00:31:27,240 click on subscribe. That's your protection. 632 00:31:27,240 --> 00:31:29,720 You have continued all for. Decades now as you have to have 633 00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:32,760 that clear and an e-mail, an e-mail provider won't let you 634 00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:35,520 send emails without a clear like a lot of them like MailChimp and 635 00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:37,360 and Clavia. So they put it in the footer or 636 00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:39,160 the automatic 1 and it's not optional. 637 00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:41,240 You as a business, you can't remove it. 638 00:31:41,240 --> 00:31:43,120 It's like we're not going to let you send emails from. 639 00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:45,200 Ourselves and it's good and it's good for the business too, 640 00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:47,880 because if I'm a business, I don't want to spend money 641 00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:49,520 talking to people who have lost interest. 642 00:31:49,520 --> 00:31:51,800 Me. Or I might recognize that my 643 00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:54,000 customer doesn't want to hear from me by e-mail, but it's 644 00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:56,920 still going to be my customer. Customer and maybe be delighted 645 00:31:56,920 --> 00:32:00,000 to get a catalog from me, maybe delighted to come up their own 646 00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:03,040 initiative when they want to. They may engage with my social 647 00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:05,440 media, they may come to my Facebook site. 648 00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:08,400 Whatever they do, just because they don't want your e-mail 649 00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:10,480 doesn't mean they don't want to be your customer. 650 00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:12,680 Although it does, of course. Everyone manages their inbox 651 00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:14,840 differently. I think it's Saguno are an 652 00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:17,200 e-mail provider within Shopify and they're one of our sponsors 653 00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:19,800 and they they say all the time that if you want more emails 654 00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:22,640 being delivered, then stop emailing the people that don't 655 00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:24,840 open them, don't click on them and aren't engaged with them. 656 00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:26,200 OK. When I was an e-mail 657 00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:29,040 practitioner, I used to tell everybody I can, I can double 658 00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:30,520 your click through rate tomorrow. 659 00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:31,920 Yeah. This episode of Winning with 660 00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:33,720 Shopify is brought to you by Tax Cloud. 661 00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:36,040 It's the busiest time of year for e-commerce. 662 00:32:36,040 --> 00:32:38,320 Your stores buzzing, orders flying in, and growth is at an 663 00:32:38,320 --> 00:32:39,960 all time high. But with all that momentum can 664 00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:43,800 come new sales tax exposure that you might not even see coming. 665 00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:45,960 That's why now is the perfect time to take a closer look at 666 00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:48,400 how you're handling sales tax and make sure your business is 667 00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:49,760 set up for the growth that you've earned. 668 00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:52,360 Tax Cloud is our trusted partner for sales tax compliance. 669 00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:54,600 Built for growing Shopify brands. 670 00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:57,400 They handle to regulations, filings, and ongoing compliance, 671 00:32:57,400 --> 00:33:01,120 working directly with the states on your behalf across the US so 672 00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:02,920 you can stay focused on running your store. 673 00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:05,240 They've got a five star rating in the Shopify App Store and 674 00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:07,640 listeners winning the Shopify get free migration and boarding 675 00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:10,120 when you make the switch. To apply for that and learn 676 00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:12,760 more, you can go to taxcloud.com/winning. 677 00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:17,640 That's taxcloud.com/winning. But we yeah, increase the 678 00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:19,640 postmaster scores by sending less emails to people that 679 00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:20,560 don't. Want them If I take out 680 00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:24,000 everybody who hasn't clicked in the last three years? 681 00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:27,320 Yeah, Half your base probably. Yeah, Yeah, you're going to get 682 00:33:27,320 --> 00:33:30,360 the same number of clicks, the same number of orders, but your 683 00:33:30,360 --> 00:33:32,040 click through rate will double. That's, I mean that's. 684 00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:34,040 The beauty of mathematics. And yeah, it is. 685 00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:37,000 And I think the marketing teams I think have some of the wrong 686 00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:39,840 internal metrics. The metric is always ROI on new 687 00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:42,160 customer acquisition. And then the second metric is 688 00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:44,080 how many people have we got on our e-mail database. 689 00:33:44,240 --> 00:33:47,720 The metrics in my opinion should be what's the lifetime value for 690 00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:49,960 how many purchases and revenue we're getting per customer and 691 00:33:50,120 --> 00:33:52,640 that needs to be going up. And the second thing is how much 692 00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:53,880 revenue we're making from e-mail. 693 00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:56,960 We're absolutely strong and passionate advocates of lifetime 694 00:33:56,960 --> 00:33:59,200 value. And if you get your lifetime 695 00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:02,960 value calculation correct it, it changes what we call the 696 00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:05,240 allowable. And that's the amount you can 697 00:34:05,240 --> 00:34:09,560 spend getting a customer that looks like your best customers 698 00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:12,400 because so, so you have to look at who are the 20% of my 699 00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:14,719 customers generating 80% of my profits. 700 00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:16,159 Get more of them. What are they worth? 701 00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:18,360 What do they look like? How do I get more of them? 702 00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:20,320 What can I afford to pay to get more of them? 703 00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:23,719 And one of the big mistakes digital advertising made from 704 00:34:23,719 --> 00:34:28,360 the early days was to be base everything on the cheapest route 705 00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:32,320 to eyeballs. But the cheapest customer is not 706 00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:34,360 necessarily your best customer. They may. 707 00:34:34,360 --> 00:34:36,719 Normally it's the opposite. They're a brand Switcher. 708 00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:38,199 They're a brand. Yeah. 709 00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:41,120 I used to work on toothpaste early on in my career and in a 710 00:34:41,120 --> 00:34:43,560 toothpaste franchise you only get a couple of different types 711 00:34:43,560 --> 00:34:46,080 of people you have but you. Don't avoid making jokes about 712 00:34:46,080 --> 00:34:46,679 toothpaste. Now. 713 00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:52,719 Breath of fresh air, Sorry. You have brand switchers who 714 00:34:52,719 --> 00:34:55,920 change brand every time they buy based on the price promotion. 715 00:34:55,920 --> 00:34:58,400 They tend to be economically disadvantaged. 716 00:34:58,400 --> 00:34:59,760 Cheapest. What's the cheapest? 717 00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:02,520 Whatever. Then you have people who are 718 00:35:02,520 --> 00:35:06,680 loyal to a same brand throughout their life and everybody else 719 00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:08,920 switches once or twice because of a certain. 720 00:35:08,920 --> 00:35:13,200 Maybe you get married and your partner is the different brand, 721 00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:15,400 your household switches or someone comes up with an 722 00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:19,920 innovation like Tartica or a new flavor or a new type of of a 723 00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:22,600 pump versus a tube and that catches your attention. 724 00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:26,520 So you'll switch two or three times in your life and that's 725 00:35:26,520 --> 00:35:30,400 really good and that kind of product and you don't want to 726 00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:32,200 invest. A lot of to know that, isn't it? 727 00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:33,560 It's so important. Exactly. 728 00:35:33,560 --> 00:35:36,160 And you don't necessarily want, it depends on your strategy, 729 00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:38,440 your business strategy, your marketing strategy, your 730 00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:42,280 approach to profitability. But most businesses don't want 731 00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:45,040 to invest in a customer that's going to buy from them one time 732 00:35:45,520 --> 00:35:49,120 and never buy from them again unless perhaps it's a high value 733 00:35:49,120 --> 00:35:51,960 good. But even if you buy an expensive 734 00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:55,320 item like a car, that brand will want you to try to persuade you 735 00:35:55,320 --> 00:35:58,320 to buy from them again. Because getting you to buy a car 736 00:35:58,320 --> 00:36:01,480 every five years from the same company, it's obviously more 737 00:36:01,480 --> 00:36:03,480 lucrative. It's building that loyalty and 738 00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:05,640 reminding them how lovely their car is compared to everybody 739 00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:07,200 else's. And then, oh, we're doing some 740 00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:09,000 discount offers if you trade it in. 741 00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:11,040 So there's always kind of marketing hooks aren't there to 742 00:36:11,040 --> 00:36:12,960 try and get somebody to come back to that that car brand 743 00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:14,040 again. Correct. 744 00:36:14,080 --> 00:36:16,760 And again, bring it back to today's topic, without the data, 745 00:36:17,240 --> 00:36:19,440 you're kind of stuffed. You don't know what's going on, 746 00:36:19,440 --> 00:36:21,200 you don't, you can't see those journeys. 747 00:36:21,200 --> 00:36:23,160 It's just anonymised. It's just those are our 748 00:36:23,160 --> 00:36:25,720 customers that have cars with us, who have bought cars from 749 00:36:25,720 --> 00:36:27,160 us. And here's loads of people just 750 00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:29,400 arriving on the website and it's totally disconnected because 751 00:36:29,800 --> 00:36:32,000 under legitimate interest, if you could connect those, what 752 00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:33,320 does it do for trade in the country? 753 00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:36,040 Yeah, when you have to. And the reason you're using data 754 00:36:36,040 --> 00:36:39,040 and the the the beauty of the data-driven era, and I think 755 00:36:39,040 --> 00:36:43,320 that's another consensus across the country from politicians 756 00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:47,080 right through to business owners, is that using data 757 00:36:47,080 --> 00:36:50,440 effectively is good for everybody. 758 00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:52,080 Yeah, yeah. And it's going to be good for 759 00:36:52,120 --> 00:36:55,240 the government to deliver customers services in a better 760 00:36:55,240 --> 00:36:57,080 way. It would be good for HMRC and 761 00:36:57,080 --> 00:36:59,040 helping you solve something. That she's and we, I should have 762 00:36:59,240 --> 00:37:01,480 mentioned this to you when we're preparing today, but we've got a 763 00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:05,520 statistic on our website that I think it's 97 or 98%, but it 764 00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:08,760 says that, that that's the percentage of brands that we go 765 00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:11,520 into pitch to or meet. I'm, I'm meeting two more today 766 00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:13,640 for example. And the first thing I'm probably 767 00:37:13,640 --> 00:37:16,200 going to talk to them about is your data's inaccurate and what 768 00:37:16,200 --> 00:37:18,200 do we need to do to get the right data or, or it might be 769 00:37:18,200 --> 00:37:19,880 accurate, but you're reading it wrong or you're looking at the 770 00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:22,160 wrong metrics. I mean, even ROI, return on 771 00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:25,160 investment, people say, well, we spent $10,000 and we made 772 00:37:25,160 --> 00:37:28,560 100,000 and we got 12:50 ROI that could make a loss. 773 00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:31,040 What products did you sell and what were the margins of those 774 00:37:31,040 --> 00:37:32,800 products? That's a completely different 775 00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:34,800 way to look at this. But I just think the point of. 776 00:37:34,800 --> 00:37:39,240 And what you need to know is, is who are those people that are 777 00:37:39,240 --> 00:37:42,480 visited from the first time, Yeah, are likely to become your 778 00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:44,800 customers. So if we had, how can I do a few 779 00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:48,760 things that will help me understand and then predict, you 780 00:37:48,760 --> 00:37:51,160 know, which we used to call and when people come back and start 781 00:37:51,160 --> 00:37:52,800 come back. Chris, we've got a new, we've 782 00:37:52,800 --> 00:37:54,800 got a new range of cars you might be interested in and 783 00:37:54,800 --> 00:37:57,160 they're all four door family salons because that's what you 784 00:37:57,160 --> 00:37:58,400 bought last time. Or actually, they're two seater 785 00:37:58,400 --> 00:38:00,120 sports cars and they're all convertible because that's what 786 00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:01,600 you bought last. Time, and that's what cookies 787 00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:04,240 enables, is the collection of that kind of data. 788 00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:08,040 And you know, yeah, of course there is always some serendipity 789 00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:10,200 and marketing. There's always some serendipity 790 00:38:10,200 --> 00:38:12,080 and customer behaviors. It's a great word, so. 791 00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:17,040 So you may have gone 20 years in a row to the same holiday 792 00:38:17,040 --> 00:38:20,720 destination and one year you wake up and think, wow, I think 793 00:38:20,720 --> 00:38:22,760 I'll try something new. This the one next door. 794 00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:27,560 So if I just offer you holidays to Greek islands, because that's 795 00:38:27,560 --> 00:38:29,800 where you've gone for the last five, might miss an opportunity 796 00:38:29,800 --> 00:38:33,160 to expand your horizons and and give you a chance to diversify 797 00:38:33,160 --> 00:38:34,520 your life a little. Bit have you thought about 798 00:38:34,520 --> 00:38:36,960 Spanish islands? Very similar, but typically 799 00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:40,240 people will repurchase frequently. 800 00:38:40,560 --> 00:38:43,080 Things you know and and like your vegetables. 801 00:38:43,080 --> 00:38:45,480 You'll buy a lot of carrots. I will. 802 00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:47,720 And that they're no Brussels. They're incredibly expensive in 803 00:38:47,720 --> 00:38:49,120 the UK these days. Carrots. 804 00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:51,920 That's a different story that we can. 805 00:38:52,040 --> 00:38:55,000 We can do that next time down into our last question about 806 00:38:55,000 --> 00:38:58,480 Google consent mode. So let's let's let's Fast 807 00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:02,200 forward to the future and let's say like, OK, the IICO, all the 808 00:39:02,200 --> 00:39:05,840 governments, EUUKUS, all the governments have agreed. 809 00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:08,200 Now we still need a cookie banner, but we don't need to put 810 00:39:08,200 --> 00:39:10,880 advertising cookies in it. So actually, if somebody lands 811 00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:13,400 on the site, GA 4 now will be a hundreds in accurate Google ads 812 00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:15,520 be a hundreds in accurate. One of the questions I put to 813 00:39:15,520 --> 00:39:16,920 you and you sort of said I'm going to read up on this. 814 00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:19,120 I'm quite interested to see what you found on this is if you 815 00:39:19,120 --> 00:39:22,400 don't have a Google Consent V2, it's called now as well. 816 00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:24,080 I couldn't even really tell you what the difference was. 817 00:39:24,080 --> 00:39:26,560 I just knew we need to make sure the banner had V2 tick. 818 00:39:26,840 --> 00:39:28,760 But anyway, I'm 20 years into my career. 819 00:39:28,760 --> 00:39:30,680 I'm an expert in this. I've been running Google ads 820 00:39:30,680 --> 00:39:33,320 since I was, I wouldn't tell you how old, but long before I was 821 00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:36,440 18 and I don't really know that it was V1 and V2. 822 00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:38,080 I could go and find out. It's irrelevant to me. 823 00:39:38,080 --> 00:39:41,200 As long as we're compliant. It's say we achieve all these 824 00:39:41,200 --> 00:39:43,240 things and we don't need those banners and things anymore. 825 00:39:43,240 --> 00:39:45,240 There's still going to be a lag, isn't there? 826 00:39:45,240 --> 00:39:47,840 Before Google and Meta and others pick up on the fact 827 00:39:47,840 --> 00:39:51,360 Google won't let you run ads without a cookie V2 consent, you 828 00:39:51,360 --> 00:39:53,600 know, enabled banner. There's going to be that lag 829 00:39:53,600 --> 00:39:56,520 then before the tech companies can then update the tech again 830 00:39:57,080 --> 00:40:00,000 to be in a position to actually run things like Google Analytics 831 00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:03,200 and e-mail analytics and some of the pixels for social 832 00:40:03,200 --> 00:40:05,480 advertising to give you the information you need without 833 00:40:05,560 --> 00:40:07,880 asking the customer for consent because legitimate interest or 834 00:40:07,880 --> 00:40:10,240 whatever the actual terminology is, there's still going to be 835 00:40:10,240 --> 00:40:12,600 that lag time, isn't there? Before the tech companies then 836 00:40:12,600 --> 00:40:14,360 update. And again, there's gonna be a 837 00:40:14,360 --> 00:40:15,640 whole other round of changes everyone's gonna. 838 00:40:15,640 --> 00:40:17,200 Have to make Yeah. And and again, it goes back to 839 00:40:17,200 --> 00:40:18,920 the use case we were talking about. 840 00:40:18,920 --> 00:40:22,520 So say you're a website that doesn't take advertising on your 841 00:40:22,520 --> 00:40:25,120 website. So you would think, why do I 842 00:40:25,120 --> 00:40:30,120 need consent? The reason Google believes you 843 00:40:30,120 --> 00:40:34,600 do is because when you come from that ad, when the customer comes 844 00:40:34,600 --> 00:40:39,400 from the ad you've placed to your website, Google will want 845 00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:42,040 to do some other things like arrange that financial 846 00:40:42,040 --> 00:40:46,640 transaction, but also help you make some other data to 847 00:40:46,640 --> 00:40:49,760 understand and build an understanding of that customer 848 00:40:50,200 --> 00:40:53,480 and, and, and take. So, So the argument is that 849 00:40:53,960 --> 00:40:57,240 there is additional data processing that's going on even 850 00:40:57,240 --> 00:41:01,080 after they reach your site and therefore they need consent to 851 00:41:01,080 --> 00:41:05,680 do that additional processing around behavioral analytics. 852 00:41:05,680 --> 00:41:09,840 Or maybe there's going to be some future retargeting, you 853 00:41:09,840 --> 00:41:13,520 know, which is another thing that that not just legally, but 854 00:41:13,520 --> 00:41:16,080 from a customer experience point of view, people need to think 855 00:41:16,080 --> 00:41:20,440 quite hard about what is the right approach to retargeting to 856 00:41:20,440 --> 00:41:23,360 avoid looking like you're stalking people all around the 857 00:41:23,360 --> 00:41:26,480 Internet or following them into inappropriate context. 858 00:41:28,000 --> 00:41:30,800 You know, so, so I think people can do a better job of that, but 859 00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:34,400 provided you're going to take advantage of some behavioral 860 00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:36,880 insight, you're going to take advantage of some retargeted 861 00:41:36,880 --> 00:41:39,280 opportunities. You're a good business who wants 862 00:41:39,280 --> 00:41:43,560 to pay the website who sent you the customer, then you're going 863 00:41:43,560 --> 00:41:47,200 to need that consent that that Google said. 864 00:41:47,240 --> 00:41:51,080 But again, or and I'm meeting with with the officials at the 865 00:41:51,080 --> 00:41:53,360 Department of Science, Innovation and Technology. 866 00:41:53,480 --> 00:41:56,920 On Thursday. Your diary is amazing to. 867 00:41:56,960 --> 00:41:59,400 Talk about further exemptions to consent. 868 00:41:59,400 --> 00:42:02,440 So one of the great things the government put into the 869 00:42:02,440 --> 00:42:06,840 legislation is the opportunity for the Secretary of State, IE 870 00:42:06,840 --> 00:42:11,280 the government of the time, to increase the exemptions to 871 00:42:11,280 --> 00:42:17,480 consent in this area once they see what has evolved and what 872 00:42:17,480 --> 00:42:20,760 the first phase enables. And what we're already 873 00:42:20,760 --> 00:42:24,880 discovering with all the things we talked about is that we 874 00:42:24,880 --> 00:42:30,480 haven't made as much progress into that world of no cookie 875 00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:33,880 banners as we had hoped to. And therefore we're going to 876 00:42:33,880 --> 00:42:37,320 have to look at things and, and the question is, does a behavior 877 00:42:37,320 --> 00:42:41,320 of an activity create harm? Is it really a problem? 878 00:42:42,480 --> 00:42:45,680 And therefore, does the consumer really know about the technical 879 00:42:45,680 --> 00:42:47,040 details? Because we're not talking about 880 00:42:47,040 --> 00:42:49,920 the principles. People do need to know that. 881 00:42:49,920 --> 00:42:52,680 If you come to visit my website, I'm going to try to understand 882 00:42:52,680 --> 00:42:55,120 you better so that I can offer you the right products and 883 00:42:55,120 --> 00:42:58,240 services and maybe give you some discounts on things you like to 884 00:42:58,240 --> 00:42:59,200 buy from me. Yeah, Yeah. 885 00:42:59,640 --> 00:43:01,720 That's in your benefit. Yeah, you should want that. 886 00:43:01,840 --> 00:43:04,960 You should want that. But to do that, we need to do 887 00:43:04,960 --> 00:43:07,560 some stuff, right? We can't do that without getting 888 00:43:07,560 --> 00:43:09,120 to know you. But if you do it in the right 889 00:43:09,120 --> 00:43:11,520 way, people don't object. So are. 890 00:43:11,600 --> 00:43:16,360 Again, the transparency can be achieved without even 891 00:43:16,360 --> 00:43:20,080 professionals like yourself don't understand all the 892 00:43:20,080 --> 00:43:24,080 different types of corsage session cookies and this kind 893 00:43:24,080 --> 00:43:25,600 and that kind of so many different types. 894 00:43:25,600 --> 00:43:27,400 It's too busy. Reading the data we have got and 895 00:43:27,400 --> 00:43:29,800 going based on that, to keep this business afloat and keep 896 00:43:29,800 --> 00:43:32,280 them making profit and keep them growing, we need to this. 897 00:43:32,280 --> 00:43:34,120 This needs to be more effective. We need more of that. 898 00:43:34,120 --> 00:43:36,240 When you stop doing this, it's quite simple. 899 00:43:36,240 --> 00:43:38,880 But what people don't like is 1 company sharing their 900 00:43:38,880 --> 00:43:41,480 information for another company without them knowing about it. 901 00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:44,800 And that's where some level of transparency is important. 902 00:43:45,040 --> 00:43:46,000 And. Nobody disagrees with. 903 00:43:46,240 --> 00:43:49,080 And in that example, you gave the fact that the person was 904 00:43:49,080 --> 00:43:52,680 told 10,000 companies just saw what you did. 905 00:43:52,880 --> 00:43:54,400 Yeah. Yeah, they ran away, right? 906 00:43:54,520 --> 00:43:56,840 Yeah, as fast as they could. Which is the wrong message in 907 00:43:56,840 --> 00:43:58,640 the wrong context without the right information. 908 00:43:58,640 --> 00:43:59,560 And it wasn't. Correct. 909 00:43:59,560 --> 00:44:01,080 And in a giant paragraph of text. 910 00:44:01,080 --> 00:44:03,280 And that that's the thing, that the fastest way to get somebody 911 00:44:03,280 --> 00:44:04,920 off your website is put a paragraph of text in front of 912 00:44:05,320 --> 00:44:06,480 them. In all the tests I've done over 913 00:44:06,480 --> 00:44:09,440 the years with the AB test, CRO optimization, we've done every 914 00:44:09,440 --> 00:44:11,600 you put a paragraph of text in front of anyone apart from a 915 00:44:11,600 --> 00:44:13,960 German customer. You put multiple paragraphs, 916 00:44:13,960 --> 00:44:15,440 text from the German customer and they love it. 917 00:44:15,600 --> 00:44:17,040 They'll challenge you on some of the details. 918 00:44:17,080 --> 00:44:19,320 The engineering background. Exactly, exactly. 919 00:44:19,320 --> 00:44:20,920 And it's, it's interesting watching different, the way 920 00:44:20,920 --> 00:44:24,240 different countries behave, which is sometimes like we won't 921 00:44:24,240 --> 00:44:25,120 get into this stage, we will talk. 922 00:44:25,120 --> 00:44:28,440 But I do sometimes wonder why. Why the EU tries to make 923 00:44:28,440 --> 00:44:31,000 legislation at blanket level across all countries. 924 00:44:31,080 --> 00:44:34,080 Different company countries have different different cultures and 925 00:44:34,080 --> 00:44:35,720 they have different legal heritages. 926 00:44:35,720 --> 00:44:39,680 So yeah, there's some, some of the legal systems are based on 927 00:44:39,920 --> 00:44:43,920 yeah, you can do it, unless I tell you, you can't do it, which 928 00:44:43,920 --> 00:44:44,880 is. More than a based. 929 00:44:44,920 --> 00:44:48,640 On some based on unless I tell you, you can do it, you can't do 930 00:44:48,640 --> 00:44:49,800 it. Yeah, yeah, exactly. 931 00:44:49,800 --> 00:44:52,240 And so there's, there's different approaches, but the 932 00:44:52,320 --> 00:44:57,080 principles and, and actually the legislation itself in GDPR in 933 00:44:57,080 --> 00:45:00,240 particular is principles based. It is proportionate. 934 00:45:00,240 --> 00:45:02,240 It does require those balancing tests. 935 00:45:02,880 --> 00:45:06,080 It's the way it's been interpreted that has been the 936 00:45:06,080 --> 00:45:07,560 problem. And that's why one of our 937 00:45:07,560 --> 00:45:10,440 biggest achievements in the legislation was to get greater 938 00:45:10,440 --> 00:45:12,280 certainty around legitimate interest. 939 00:45:12,280 --> 00:45:15,480 Yeah, yeah, of course. And what we've been able to 940 00:45:15,480 --> 00:45:19,000 achieve is the addition of three examples of legitimate interests 941 00:45:20,280 --> 00:45:22,600 into the legislative illustrative examples of what 942 00:45:22,600 --> 00:45:24,880 might be. But the first example is direct 943 00:45:24,880 --> 00:45:27,720 marketing and that's under the government's definition of 944 00:45:27,720 --> 00:45:31,280 direct marketing, which is any personally directed advertising 945 00:45:31,280 --> 00:45:34,880 or communication message. So that automatically covers 946 00:45:34,880 --> 00:45:38,600 personalized digital advertising is a form of direct marketing. 947 00:45:40,080 --> 00:45:44,280 And so it says right in the main text of the legislation now that 948 00:45:44,280 --> 00:45:47,400 legitimate interests, direct marketing is a legitimate 949 00:45:47,400 --> 00:45:51,240 interest subject for your balancing test. 950 00:45:51,240 --> 00:45:52,960 Yeah, yeah. And subject to that. 951 00:45:53,000 --> 00:45:55,040 Balancing test, I think it's the biggest take away I think from a 952 00:45:55,040 --> 00:45:57,880 lot of this is balancing that protecting and looking after the 953 00:45:57,880 --> 00:46:00,320 consumer whilst also we've got a business to run here. 954 00:46:00,320 --> 00:46:01,720 So what's the fair balance of that? 955 00:46:01,720 --> 00:46:04,240 I think it's a very good, very good way of a, a very good 956 00:46:04,240 --> 00:46:06,040 analogy you've given for that. So, yeah, thank you. 957 00:46:06,040 --> 00:46:07,920 Yeah. So, so that is important. 958 00:46:07,920 --> 00:46:10,280 So there's there's greater strength and the government 959 00:46:10,280 --> 00:46:12,840 would hope to encourage greater use of legitimate interest. 960 00:46:12,920 --> 00:46:14,560 Yeah, yeah. But you still have to be 961 00:46:14,560 --> 00:46:16,520 transparent. You still have to explain what 962 00:46:16,520 --> 00:46:18,880 you're doing. And if I give you another tip, 963 00:46:19,080 --> 00:46:20,800 'cause you were talking about that paragraph. 964 00:46:20,800 --> 00:46:22,760 Yeah, yeah, 'cause. If you get your data 965 00:46:22,760 --> 00:46:26,080 notifications in your privacy policies written by a lawyer, 966 00:46:26,680 --> 00:46:28,560 you will alienate your customers. 967 00:46:28,600 --> 00:46:29,960 You'll get a lawyer's output. You'll. 968 00:46:30,000 --> 00:46:34,240 Get a lawyer's output and people won't understand, and it will be 969 00:46:34,240 --> 00:46:37,560 very long and it'll be full of caveats and language that 970 00:46:37,760 --> 00:46:41,400 average people don't. But if you got your copywriter 971 00:46:41,400 --> 00:46:44,640 to write your data notifications, it's a very good 972 00:46:44,640 --> 00:46:46,880 idea. And your privacy policies in 973 00:46:46,880 --> 00:46:50,160 your brand, tone of voice and the way you want to explain and 974 00:46:50,360 --> 00:46:53,320 talk to people in real language, not legal terms. 975 00:46:53,840 --> 00:46:56,640 And we did lots of tested 20 years ago when I was a 976 00:46:56,640 --> 00:46:59,120 practitioner and we did a lot of testing. 977 00:46:59,880 --> 00:47:04,440 And you can get 40 to 50% increase in the number of people 978 00:47:04,720 --> 00:47:09,560 signing up for your e-mail newsletter, for instance, if the 979 00:47:09,560 --> 00:47:12,320 communication is in brand tone of voice and not written by 980 00:47:12,360 --> 00:47:14,640 lawyers. And explain simply what you're 981 00:47:14,640 --> 00:47:15,720 doing. Like if they're asking for date 982 00:47:15,720 --> 00:47:17,640 of birth, say we're asking because we want to send you a 983 00:47:17,640 --> 00:47:20,200 free gift on your birthday. Suddenly it's like there's a 984 00:47:20,200 --> 00:47:22,560 clear reason why and people are happy to freely give that 985 00:47:22,560 --> 00:47:26,200 information if they choose to. But if you just say name, date 986 00:47:26,200 --> 00:47:28,160 of birth, like why should you do this kind of Social Security 987 00:47:28,160 --> 00:47:29,600 information? It's Yeah, I completely. 988 00:47:29,600 --> 00:47:31,880 Agree and the best at the time and they're still is, you know a 989 00:47:31,880 --> 00:47:34,320 brand like Innocent, which carries through brand tone of 990 00:47:34,320 --> 00:47:38,200 voice onto the labeling on the bottle onto in every context. 991 00:47:38,200 --> 00:47:40,280 And that should be good marketing that your brand tone 992 00:47:40,280 --> 00:47:43,720 of voice, your personality, what you're trying to be carries 993 00:47:43,720 --> 00:47:47,800 through everything. So there's no reason why the 994 00:47:47,800 --> 00:47:50,160 communication you're giving about how data is going to be 995 00:47:50,160 --> 00:47:52,600 used should be any different. Yeah, Yeah. 996 00:47:52,600 --> 00:47:55,760 And then suddenly becomes, and you can even make it humorous if 997 00:47:55,760 --> 00:47:58,400 your brand is humor. You know, if you're if you're a 998 00:47:58,400 --> 00:48:01,720 bank selling life insurance, you maybe don't want to be too 999 00:48:01,720 --> 00:48:05,040 humorous about life insurance. Or funeral care or something. 1000 00:48:05,040 --> 00:48:05,880 Yeah, funeral. Care. 1001 00:48:05,920 --> 00:48:08,760 Yeah, so, so your brand tone of voice has to be appropriate to 1002 00:48:08,760 --> 00:48:10,760 what you're selling in the context and all those things. 1003 00:48:10,760 --> 00:48:13,760 But but think, what do my customers really need to know 1004 00:48:13,760 --> 00:48:16,440 about what I'm doing that's going to make them be confident 1005 00:48:16,520 --> 00:48:18,560 to trust me? We want to improve our recipes 1006 00:48:18,560 --> 00:48:21,480 or our products or whatever it is, so please share more 1007 00:48:21,480 --> 00:48:22,960 information about this. We'd love to know where you're 1008 00:48:22,960 --> 00:48:25,480 based because then we can because our products are 1009 00:48:25,480 --> 00:48:27,640 refrigerated. So actually locality across the 1010 00:48:27,640 --> 00:48:30,840 United States mega important to us and we can create more 1011 00:48:30,840 --> 00:48:33,920 recipes, more ranges and widen our delivery if we know more 1012 00:48:33,920 --> 00:48:36,120 information about you. And you may have localization, 1013 00:48:36,120 --> 00:48:39,480 you, you may have partnerships with local providers, fresh 1014 00:48:39,480 --> 00:48:41,920 foods. If people are interested in farm 1015 00:48:41,920 --> 00:48:45,720 to table and can afford an organic farm to table 1016 00:48:45,720 --> 00:48:50,080 experience, they may be interested to know that in each 1017 00:48:50,080 --> 00:48:51,920 area you have different providers. 1018 00:48:51,920 --> 00:48:53,480 Of course, you know, like. Cool. 1019 00:48:53,880 --> 00:48:55,360 Yeah, we're going to come into land there. 1020 00:48:55,360 --> 00:48:56,480 I've just suddenly seen the time. 1021 00:48:57,040 --> 00:48:59,080 But Chris, if people are listening to this and thinking 1022 00:48:59,440 --> 00:49:02,080 right, this is complicated, but I'm really interested now and I 1023 00:49:02,080 --> 00:49:03,840 appreciate there's a lot I need to do in my business, a lot I 1024 00:49:03,840 --> 00:49:06,400 need to understand. I say to all of you as well, all 1025 00:49:06,400 --> 00:49:09,240 the time, go on your website as a customer, see what it says, 1026 00:49:09,240 --> 00:49:11,320 see what it does. And, and we got a, we got a 1027 00:49:11,320 --> 00:49:14,200 motto in our agency as one of our values question everything. 1028 00:49:14,480 --> 00:49:15,720 Why does it say that? Does it need to say that? 1029 00:49:15,720 --> 00:49:18,200 Is it not? Where are some good places 1030 00:49:18,200 --> 00:49:21,040 people can follow you follow the DMA or just follow generally 1031 00:49:21,040 --> 00:49:23,960 what's going on globally with with this big conversation that 1032 00:49:23,960 --> 00:49:25,480 you guys have been running for years? 1033 00:49:26,200 --> 00:49:33,320 1st come to our website dma.org.uk Yep and have a look 1034 00:49:33,320 --> 00:49:36,880 at what we have a lot of our content is there to help you 1035 00:49:36,880 --> 00:49:40,000 understand what you need to do so we have a whole suite of bite 1036 00:49:40,000 --> 00:49:41,840 sized guides on these issues or even. 1037 00:49:41,840 --> 00:49:43,360 Worded very simply, which I love. 1038 00:49:43,360 --> 00:49:45,400 It's worded simply plain English. 1039 00:49:45,440 --> 00:49:48,920 Yeah, a lot of it is member only content because we can't do what 1040 00:49:48,920 --> 00:49:53,080 we do without people participating in a in a 1041 00:49:53,080 --> 00:49:56,040 relationship with us. But if you unlock our member 1042 00:49:56,040 --> 00:49:59,600 only content, you will have a wide range of resources, 1043 00:49:59,600 --> 00:50:03,040 including a free legal help desk that you can call and, and, and, 1044 00:50:03,360 --> 00:50:06,400 and contact for, for answers to these questions. 1045 00:50:06,400 --> 00:50:07,720 And they will give you the answers. 1046 00:50:07,840 --> 00:50:10,560 Amazing. And then on top of that, you can 1047 00:50:10,560 --> 00:50:12,360 contribute to these conversations. 1048 00:50:12,360 --> 00:50:17,000 So if you were a member, you could advocate this. 1049 00:50:17,000 --> 00:50:19,600 This particular part of the legislation is driving my 1050 00:50:19,600 --> 00:50:23,040 customers crazy and driving all Shopify customers crazy. 1051 00:50:23,720 --> 00:50:27,120 Can we work on getting that changed to make it go away so 1052 00:50:27,120 --> 00:50:29,160 you you get a voice into the process? 1053 00:50:29,160 --> 00:50:31,400 And it helps you guys having that here's a body of people 1054 00:50:31,400 --> 00:50:34,440 that are angry or something's not working or they're having to 1055 00:50:34,440 --> 00:50:36,400 do this, which is not quite correct, but they have to have 1056 00:50:36,400 --> 00:50:38,720 necessity that obviously helps you guys get get hurt. 1057 00:50:38,720 --> 00:50:40,880 Everything we do is what our members want. 1058 00:50:40,880 --> 00:50:44,400 So when we started the legislative process in 2001 on 1059 00:50:44,400 --> 00:50:48,400 on this range of legislative changes, we held round tables 1060 00:50:48,400 --> 00:50:52,160 with the government and our members and identify 10 to 12 1061 00:50:52,160 --> 00:50:54,680 things that would really fundamentally make a difference 1062 00:50:54,680 --> 00:50:58,440 to the business like getting rid of pop up consent banners for 1063 00:50:58,440 --> 00:51:02,840 cookies and the whole legislative process we follow to 1064 00:51:02,840 --> 00:51:04,720 try to deliver. Our movement, doesn't it? 1065 00:51:05,160 --> 00:51:08,280 And it becomes a movement, but in the same way as a business 1066 00:51:08,280 --> 00:51:11,480 should be customer or members or our customers, and we're 1067 00:51:11,480 --> 00:51:15,440 responsive to them and what will make their business better and 1068 00:51:15,440 --> 00:51:17,600 give them opportunities to grow their business. 1069 00:51:17,600 --> 00:51:20,360 And that's what we're here for, to get the legislative framework 1070 00:51:20,360 --> 00:51:25,080 right, but also to share best practice, to share case studies, 1071 00:51:25,600 --> 00:51:29,480 to help people know what works best, all those things. 1072 00:51:29,480 --> 00:51:33,480 So I would say the single best place to go is the DMA's 1073 00:51:33,480 --> 00:51:34,200 website. Oh. 1074 00:51:34,360 --> 00:51:36,160 Absolutely fine. And I mean, obviously we we 1075 00:51:36,200 --> 00:51:38,160 massively endorse you guys, hence why we invited you in 1076 00:51:38,160 --> 00:51:39,520 today. And I think the work you're 1077 00:51:39,520 --> 00:51:41,640 doing is amazing. So yeah, guys, definitely check 1078 00:51:41,640 --> 00:51:45,760 out dma.org.uk CRL go and check that out if you want to tune in 1079 00:51:45,760 --> 00:51:47,440 to more of our contents, The first thing you've ever seen 1080 00:51:47,440 --> 00:51:49,440 from us as well. Tuesday I run at my own little 1081 00:51:49,440 --> 00:51:52,040 show called Tuesday Tea Break Talks on the same podcast, same 1082 00:51:52,040 --> 00:51:53,560 place. And every week I have a little 1083 00:51:53,560 --> 00:51:55,520 rant about something, share some news that's going on. 1084 00:51:55,600 --> 00:51:57,400 We'll share some tips and things going on in the agency with our 1085 00:51:57,400 --> 00:51:59,360 clients. And also most Fridays we have a 1086 00:51:59,360 --> 00:52:01,720 guest like Chris on an episode like this as well. 1087 00:52:01,720 --> 00:52:03,480 We interview lots of brands. So make sure you check that out 1088 00:52:03,480 --> 00:52:05,240 if you haven't already. Hit subscribe on whatever 1089 00:52:05,240 --> 00:52:07,520 channel you're listening to and go to our website and sign up to 1090 00:52:07,600 --> 00:52:11,720 our newsletterwwspodcast.com. And there is an unsubscribe 1091 00:52:11,720 --> 00:52:14,240 button because Byron, who's just behind that camera sends it 1092 00:52:14,240 --> 00:52:15,720 every week. And Saguna run the platforms. 1093 00:52:15,720 --> 00:52:17,560 It's got an unsubscribe button as well, which you're welcome to 1094 00:52:17,560 --> 00:52:19,040 click at any point. But why on earth would you do 1095 00:52:19,040 --> 00:52:21,760 that podcast completely free? So thanks tuning in, Hope you 1096 00:52:21,760 --> 00:52:24,000 can join us again next time. Do you ever find that in your 1097 00:52:24,000 --> 00:52:25,520 warehouse? You have dead stuff. 1098 00:52:25,800 --> 00:52:27,680 You can't sell it, no one wants to buy it, and you can't get a 1099 00:52:27,680 --> 00:52:30,480 refund on it. Or alternatively, you're missing 1100 00:52:30,480 --> 00:52:31,880 inventory in your warehouse that you need. 1101 00:52:31,880 --> 00:52:34,320 You've got sales coming in and you're low on stock and you 1102 00:52:34,320 --> 00:52:36,480 haven't ordered more stock. In time. 1103 00:52:36,560 --> 00:52:38,520 All these things hit profit. And I've been there. 1104 00:52:38,520 --> 00:52:41,120 I've run my own Shopify store and had exactly that problem. 1105 00:52:41,280 --> 00:52:43,280 But we've partnered up with Inventory Planner who have the 1106 00:52:43,280 --> 00:52:46,880 most incredible app to help you manage that and forecast exactly 1107 00:52:46,880 --> 00:52:50,200 what products, what skews even down to what colour of products 1108 00:52:50,200 --> 00:52:53,280 you need to order in advance to make sure stock levels remain 1109 00:52:53,280 --> 00:52:56,000 consistent throughout. They're also running a seven day 1110 00:52:56,040 --> 00:52:57,440 boot camp. And if you want to go and start 1111 00:52:57,440 --> 00:53:00,320 to that, it's 7 emails over 7 days and it takes the same 1112 00:53:00,320 --> 00:53:01,920 amount of time as your morning coffee. 1113 00:53:01,960 --> 00:53:04,360 And in seven days, like me, you can become an inventory 1114 00:53:04,360 --> 00:53:05,240 management. Pro. 1115 00:53:05,680 --> 00:53:07,280 Both links are in the description. 1116 00:53:07,560 --> 00:53:07,920 Enjoy.