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Today on the Winning with 
Shopify podcast, unfortunately, 

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almost every AB test I've ever 
run, I've learned that customers

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are lazier than I even thought 
they were based on previous 

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tests. 
This is an e-commerce guy 

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telling you e-commerce 
conversion rate is garbage. 

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They always assume I will create
the content, I will do it once 

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and then I will post it like it 
or not. 

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I think that in 2025, paid ads 
are going to continue to go up. 

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Have you heard of the show How 
It's made? 

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Actually, yes. 
I loved that show so much. 

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Hello, welcome to the Winning 
Wish Shop 5 podcast. 

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As you may have noticed, I'm not
Nick. 

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My name is Byron and I usually 
work behind the scenes producing

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the show. 
I'm jumping in front of the 

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camera today because Nick is a 
brand new dad and he is busy 

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changing nappies. 
So this week we are going to do 

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a roundup of the best bits from 
the past six months. 

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I hope you enjoy it. 
This relates massively to Google

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Shopping, which is one of the 
things we spend a lot of time 

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and money investing in for our 
clients. 

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Now on Google Shopping, when 
somebody clicks on a product 

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listing, they land on a product 
page. 

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That bit is obvious. 
What's not so obvious to a lot 

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of brands, and something we've 
found a lot of fruit in doing, 

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and we've increased a lot of 
conversion rates by doing this, 

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is if you look at the page they 
land on, it's obviously a 

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product page, but the product 
pages are probably one of the 

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least welcoming pages on any 
store that I've ever looked at. 

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On the page, it doesn't say 
anything about who you are. 

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It doesn't say anything in 
enough detail about this 

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product. 
It also doesn't show similar 

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products they might be 
interested in if this one isn't 

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quite right. 
So actually there's a big 

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opportunity to change that. 
And again, if you did an AB 

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test, you could redesign your 
PDP, your product description 

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page and have two versions of 
them and run that in a test to 

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go the old version that's just 
got maybe like an image, your 

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pricing, little bit of 
information, little description.

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And the next thing underneath is
like people also bought this. 

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And then into your footer. 
There's not a lot of information

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actually on that page to make a 
buying decision. 

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Equally, if you just put 20 
paragraphs in there and had this

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big essay, long form content, 
piece of text, that also might 

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put people off because it's 
like, I'm not reading all of 

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that. 
You know, customers are lazy. 

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And unfortunately, almost every 
AB test I've ever run, I've 

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learned that customers are 
lazier than I even thought they 

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were based on previous tests. 
So customers are lazy. 

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Well, what you can do on APDP is
you can actually add a bit of 

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information, a bit of content, 
say who we are. 

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You can also extend the product 
description because most people 

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are buying a product for a 
specific reason, so they'll have

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some questions. 
So you can extend the product 

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description, you can add FAQs, 
you could feature your reviews 

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on the page and that sort of 
thing. 

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We've even done a test last year
where somebody had reviews, but 

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they had sort of five tabs. 
The first one was the product 

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description that was open and 
you can click over to go to 

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specifications, dimensions, 
reviews, FAQs, all on different 

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tabs when we actually just put 
them on rows of content on top 

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of one another and just had them
all visible down the page. 

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You don't have to Click to 
display anything. 

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Conversion rate on that one in 
particular actually lifted. 

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I think it was 35 or 40% more 
revenue because customers now 

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didn't have to click about and 
try and find how to find that 

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information under the tabs and 
then read the text. 

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It was all just presented down 
the page as they scrolled and we

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saw on mics of clarity, more 
people now were scrolling to the

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bottom of the page. 
So the content was working well 

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and it's broken down really, 
really nicely. 

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Lots of images, bullet point 
lists, using colouring in a 

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clever way just to keep the page
nice and entertaining to the 

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user to get that information 
across in a in a nice way. 

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When we've run PDP redesigned 
tests, I'm going to say 

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redesign. 
You don't need to get a designer

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and get your crayons out and try
and design something new. 

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Just by changing the content 
about and changing the length of

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content and adding more 
information to each product. 

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We've seen them, we've seen the 
20% uplift on on average across 

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all of our clients. 
And actually, it's quite an easy

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thing to do. 
It's just time consuming to 

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actually write to the content. 
But it's certainly not 

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complicated. 
And on Shopify, you shouldn't 

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really need a designer. 
It depends what a developer, 

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sorry, depends what theme, what 
templates you're using and that 

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kind of thing. 
This one's fascinating. 

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This is one of those ones that 
when I say what it is, you might

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go, what the heck has that got 
to do with anything? 

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And the results in this are 
absolutely astronomical. 

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And I don't use that word often.
I try not to exaggerate too 

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much, especially when I'm 
hosting a podcast, but this one,

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it's all around pre-order. 
So a lot of sites have pre-order

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on them. 
So you can order this product, 

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but we don't have it right now. 
We're going to order it in or 

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it's on the way and you can 
pre-order this product. 

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The conversion rate on 
pre-order, unless you've 

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absolutely nailed your marketing
and you're advertising 

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yourselves as a Kickstarter, 
Indiegogo brand, something like 

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that, where actually pre-order 
makes sense where we've seen 

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brands using pre-order and when 
we had three last year in 

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particular, we looked at 
pre-order and we use Microsoft 

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clarity and hot jar to watch 
people use the website and see 

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what the, you know, see see what
they were doing when they see 

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pre-order. 
Two out of the three sites, as 

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soon as someone saw pre-order, 
they left the site all together.

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They were just gone. 
So what we did, two of those 

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brands replaced pre-order with 
in stock and then the third 

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brand kept pre-order but also 
did the next thing that all 

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three brands did above the adsic
basket or buy it now button or 

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whatever, whatever your call to 
action is above that they gave 

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some sort of delivery estimates.
Our partners at Saguna released 

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a brand new app for Shopify and 
it's called Shopify Connect 4 

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Canva. 
You can essentially look at all 

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of your product images from 
Shopify directly in Canva and 

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export them straight back. 
This can save you a lot of time.

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If you want to find out a bit 
more about this or go and find 

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the app yourself, you can go to 
saguno.com/camber. 

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Enjoy. 
So what we learnt, and this 

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does, I mentioned Rory 
Sutherland already, it does go 

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back to something Rory 
Sutherland talks about quite a 

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lot, which is about expectation 
and entertainment. 

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So the unknown is scary to 
people. 

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So if you just say pre-order, 
it's like when's it going to 

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arrive? 
I've it basically is a tell me 

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when it's back in stock, but 
you're asking me to pay for it 

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now. 
People don't want to do that. 

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So if you give an expectation 
it's going to take three to six 

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weeks, suddenly people start 
ordering these products and 

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because they know it's going to 
be 3 to 6 weeks. 

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And if you've done your research
in marketing, well that three to

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six weeks is totally achievable.
It's actually going to be like 

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one to three. 
But we're going to put 3:00 to 

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4:00 as the estimate. 
So we're going to under promise 

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over deliver and customers, 
we're really happy. 

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We'll get better reviews. 
We can feature those reviews on 

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the site like I was talking 
about earlier and our whole 

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business starts to grow nicely 
and organically. 

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So this one's been amazing and 
the worst result we had out of 

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those 3, it was a 40% uplift on 
pre-order items. 

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So we we're now making 40% more 
revenue on pre-order and we were

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actually, I didn't get the stat 
for this, but we're making more 

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money on the non, the general, 
the non pre-order, the general 

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in stock stuff anyway, because 
people now weren't leaving the 

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site having seen one or two 
pre-order items. 

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So we're still browsing the 
site, found a few things in 

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stock and and bought stuff in 
stock, but just pre-order alone,

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40% uplift on pre-order items 
and that particular brand as 

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well. 
And they had I think about 30 or

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40% of their product range was 
pre-order. 

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So you get an idea as to how 
much revenue they made out of 

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this thing. 
And it wasn't obvious when we 

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first started any of these 
tests. 

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The best result, This is insane,
right? 

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We had a 1200% uplift on 
pre-order items. 

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Total site revenue doubled, 
total site revenue doubled and 

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we did that in September last 
year just in time for peak. 

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What I'm not saying it was an 
accident, like we did stuff to 

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make it happen, but we were not 
expecting that kind of result. 

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So if you have anything on your 
side that's pre-order or even if

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you've got stuff that's out of 
stock, but you know it's coming 

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back, if you can put something 
on those products to say we know

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it's going to be back by this 
date, say out of stock becomes 

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pre-order, you know, and 
delivery by this date, your 

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revenue could be significantly 
higher than it is at the moment.

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So that one really was a diamond
that we found by doing enough 

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mining, which is a little 
reference to Minecraft, which I 

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don't have any time to play 
anymore. 

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It's a fantastic game. 
I'll tell you one of the biggest

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problems I think with data as 
well is whether it's in the 

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separate systems and you're not 
looking at it or you bring it. 

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Even if you bring it all 
together and you're looking at 

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it or you're not looking at it. 
The biggest issue I find, I'd 

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love to get your thoughts on 
this is I feel that a lot of 

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brands that like, like the guys 
in the Netherlands, they've 

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reached one 1.5 million in a 
year. 

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There's a shelf somewhere 
between 1:00 and 2:00 million, 

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I'm convinced of it, where 
people can't burst through it. 

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They've got the data, they look 
at it, they analyze it, but they

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struggle to know what decisions 
now to make, what to do 

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differently. 
Like even if a product's 

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trending this week, all right, 
put the budgets up and it's 

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like, no, that's such a binary 
way of looking at it. 

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So how do you guys go about then
using that data to make changes 

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to impact something to make a 
difference? 

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So here's the thing you have to 
know, you have to know what the,

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what the data means, right? 
I'll give you an example, right?

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Everyone in e-commerce obsesses 
about the conversion rate, 

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right? 
That's one of the OGKPIS that 

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from day 0 till now, even today,
right? 

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Even after this podcast, you're 
going to hear about conversion 

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rate, right? 
The problem with conversion rate

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is it's not the right KPI, all 
right? 

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It's not the right KPI. 
And, and let me explain what 

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what that means. 
And, and I'll come back to 

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understanding broader question 
of data, understanding the data 

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insights. 
When you're looking at this 

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data, right? 
I'm going to, I'm going to cover

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that too. 
When you look at something like 

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conversion rate that everybody 
obsesses, I mean, it's 

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00:09:17,520 --> 00:09:21,280
conversion rate and it's row as 
if you know barely anything 

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about e-commerce. 
You know that those are the two 

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00:09:23,600 --> 00:09:25,680
things. 
And I'm telling you today with 

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25 years of experience, with $1 
billion in incremental 

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e-commerce revenue, a lot of 
experience, right, Conversion 

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rate is the wrong KPI, right? 
This is an e-commerce guy 

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telling you e-commerce 
conversion rate is garbage, 

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right? 
And I'll give you a very crude 

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example, right? 
You enter a room, right? 

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A hypothetical room this the 
right side of the room has fifty

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NBA basketball players from the 
US, right, very tall people, 

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right? 
And the other half are the 

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dwarfs from Lord of the Rings, 
the other 50 legends. 

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I say, Nick, based on this data,
tell me the average height of 

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the room. 
You'll come back and say 5 foot 

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7 inches. 
Then my follow up question, how 

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many 5 foot 7 inch people do you
have in there? 

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0, The answer is 0 conversion 
rate gives you that sort of 

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garbage information. 
It doesn't give you any 

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information. 
Nothing useful there. 

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In fact, in my case, in my 
program, I've replaced that and 

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I've done this for many years 
now. 

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The term is session value, 
right? 

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And what is a session value? 
A session value is, if you want 

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00:10:33,040 --> 00:10:36,160
to look at broad your entire 
website for a time period, let's

225
00:10:36,160 --> 00:10:40,160
say December 1 through December 
31, 2024, that just ended, 

226
00:10:40,280 --> 00:10:42,200
right? 
We're recording this at the end 

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00:10:42,200 --> 00:10:47,240
of January right now, right? 
So that time period you look at 

228
00:10:47,440 --> 00:10:50,880
the total revenue, net sales or 
gross sales, however you want to

229
00:10:50,880 --> 00:10:53,720
look at it, you take that 
number, you divide it by the 

230
00:10:53,720 --> 00:10:56,920
number of total sessions you 
had, right, for your site. 

231
00:10:57,240 --> 00:11:00,240
And that gives you a global 
session value for your site. 

232
00:11:00,640 --> 00:11:05,040
That dollar value, that pound 
sterling, that euro value that 

233
00:11:05,040 --> 00:11:09,000
you see, right? 
It tells you the productivity of

234
00:11:09,000 --> 00:11:11,680
the sessions. 
You bring in this whole mixed 

235
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bag of e-mail marketing, SEO, 
paid ads from Google Ads and 

236
00:11:16,480 --> 00:11:19,920
Meta ads and affiliate marketing
and influencer marketing, all of

237
00:11:19,920 --> 00:11:23,320
it, right? 
Your own branding it all that 

238
00:11:23,320 --> 00:11:25,560
mix tells you what the session 
value is. 

239
00:11:25,760 --> 00:11:28,920
So if you want to increase your 
business as is, you know, 

240
00:11:29,000 --> 00:11:32,000
there's an art and science to 
touching different channels. 

241
00:11:32,280 --> 00:11:35,640
But if you if you do the same 
thing or similar thing, if there

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00:11:35,640 --> 00:11:39,440
might be some reduction in the 
quality of the productivity that

243
00:11:39,440 --> 00:11:43,120
that dollar amount, like dollar 
27 per session, right? 

244
00:11:43,120 --> 00:11:45,320
That's how much revenue you 
collect for every session that 

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00:11:45,320 --> 00:11:48,720
shows up to your site. 
Right now what I would do is 

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00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:51,560
that's my global index, that's 
my number for my site. 

247
00:11:51,960 --> 00:11:55,680
Then I look at Meta ads, I look 
at outbound clicks, that's the 

248
00:11:55,800 --> 00:11:58,760
the number of sessions or 
equivalent of sessions that they

249
00:11:58,760 --> 00:12:00,960
sent to me, outbound clicks from
Meta ads. 

250
00:12:01,440 --> 00:12:05,560
And I look at what what Meta 
reports as attributed revenue, 

251
00:12:05,680 --> 00:12:07,960
right? 
We know it's a mixed bag, but 

252
00:12:07,960 --> 00:12:11,840
then let's say, let's say that 
let's say because they always 

253
00:12:11,840 --> 00:12:14,920
over report by the way, Meta ads
always over reports Google ads 

254
00:12:14,920 --> 00:12:18,520
because of lawsuits over the 
past almost 2530 years. 

255
00:12:19,160 --> 00:12:21,600
They under report attribution, 
right? 

256
00:12:21,680 --> 00:12:25,320
What Google ads tells you on 
their site on on their admin 

257
00:12:25,320 --> 00:12:29,400
portal, what your OS is for a 
campaign, it's usually off by 

258
00:12:29,480 --> 00:12:33,400
30%, thirty to 40%. 
In case of meta ads, they way 

259
00:12:33,400 --> 00:12:37,040
over report by multiples, right?
That's how how bad the data is. 

260
00:12:37,560 --> 00:12:40,320
So, but if you look at that 
number and you divide the 

261
00:12:40,320 --> 00:12:43,400
revenue from Meta, what is 
reporting as attributed revenue 

262
00:12:43,400 --> 00:12:47,320
divided by outbound clicks, it 
will give you the productivity 

263
00:12:47,320 --> 00:12:49,160
of the revenue for you to 
generate. 

264
00:12:49,480 --> 00:12:53,560
If you were to increase your 
budget on Meta ads and deliver 

265
00:12:53,720 --> 00:12:57,760
more traffic similar to modeled 
after AI advantage plus 

266
00:12:57,760 --> 00:13:00,680
whatever, right? 
It will generate more revenue 

267
00:13:00,680 --> 00:13:03,480
similar to that, right? 
Similar to it, not exactly, but 

268
00:13:03,480 --> 00:13:06,000
similar. 
We will talk about attribution a

269
00:13:06,240 --> 00:13:09,280
little bit later, right? 
With Google ads, you will look 

270
00:13:09,280 --> 00:13:12,480
at the same thing, right? 
When you are when you're looking

271
00:13:12,480 --> 00:13:16,640
at this, this is where you, you 
know, you talked about where do 

272
00:13:16,640 --> 00:13:19,160
you pull the lever, right? 
When you're looking at the data,

273
00:13:19,200 --> 00:13:21,400
where do you see like what am I 
seeing? 

274
00:13:21,440 --> 00:13:24,040
It's very clear with session 
value for me, right? 

275
00:13:24,280 --> 00:13:28,840
If I see that cost per click or 
cost per session on Google, 

276
00:13:29,000 --> 00:13:32,960
let's say it's dollar 50, right?
When it generates revenue per 

277
00:13:32,960 --> 00:13:36,760
session, it generates let's say 
7 bucks, right? 

278
00:13:37,320 --> 00:13:41,840
And then compared to that on, on
the Meta ad side, it costs $0.50

279
00:13:41,840 --> 00:13:46,240
to to get the get the traffic. 
However it generates revenue per

280
00:13:46,240 --> 00:13:49,960
session, maybe $2.00 or $3. 
Where do you put your money 

281
00:13:49,960 --> 00:13:52,240
between in that? 
In this hypothetical scenario? 

282
00:13:52,560 --> 00:13:55,800
It means that what you're doing 
is you're over investing in Meta

283
00:13:55,800 --> 00:13:59,320
ads and you're under investing 
and you're choking a channel 

284
00:13:59,320 --> 00:14:01,360
that could actually generate a 
lot more traffic. 

285
00:14:01,600 --> 00:14:04,760
Let's say even that $7.00 
revenue per session comes down 

286
00:14:04,760 --> 00:14:08,040
to $5. 
It's still is beating even you 

287
00:14:08,040 --> 00:14:10,600
have that inefficiency in Google
Ads. 

288
00:14:10,760 --> 00:14:13,560
It's still is beating Meta ads 
in in a bigger picture. 

289
00:14:13,800 --> 00:14:16,160
And I, I was going to ask like, 
how much did someone invest in 

290
00:14:16,160 --> 00:14:18,680
like Round 1? 
And I think $1000 to work with 

291
00:14:18,680 --> 00:14:22,560
five good micro influencers, but
doing exactly what you say. 

292
00:14:22,560 --> 00:14:24,880
And I'd love to kind of dig more
into this, especially when it's 

293
00:14:24,880 --> 00:14:27,600
around that kind of gifting 
piece that here's a product plus

294
00:14:27,800 --> 00:14:29,440
$200. 
As you say, each, you know, 

295
00:14:29,440 --> 00:14:30,520
that's what we're going to 
provide. 

296
00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:32,840
That will get us some I, I take 
it that'll get some good shop 

297
00:14:32,840 --> 00:14:35,600
window space and attention of a 
few goods micro influences. 

298
00:14:35,600 --> 00:14:37,960
Will it? 
If you put 200 per post amazing.

299
00:14:37,960 --> 00:14:39,720
And we, but I think the most 
important thing is like setting 

300
00:14:39,720 --> 00:14:41,800
that expectation, isn't it? 
Having a conversation with 

301
00:14:41,800 --> 00:14:45,840
saying we need to get like, if 
we're spending 1000 or $200.00 

302
00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:48,920
with you guys 1000 times. 
So we're giving you $200 to do a

303
00:14:48,920 --> 00:14:51,160
few posts with us. 
We put in to make four or five 

304
00:14:51,240 --> 00:14:54,800
of $100 back in revenue given 
our margins and almost set those

305
00:14:54,800 --> 00:14:57,400
as an expectation, say, look, if
you can help us achieve this, 

306
00:14:57,760 --> 00:15:00,360
then actually there's $200 
pretty much whenever you want 

307
00:15:00,360 --> 00:15:01,920
it. 
If you continue to deliver that 

308
00:15:01,920 --> 00:15:04,480
two to 1/3 to 1/4 to 1 almost 
ROI. 

309
00:15:04,480 --> 00:15:07,280
And it's, it's important to set 
that expectation, isn't it? 

310
00:15:08,000 --> 00:15:10,240
It is, yeah. 
Let them know, hey, here's our 

311
00:15:10,240 --> 00:15:12,000
goal, right? 
We, we want to sell. 

312
00:15:12,000 --> 00:15:15,040
So we want you to sell so that 
we can keep doing this. 

313
00:15:15,440 --> 00:15:18,040
And we look at these 
engagements, these collabs as 

314
00:15:18,040 --> 00:15:19,760
basically kind of like dating, 
right? 

315
00:15:19,760 --> 00:15:22,640
It's a it's, it's a one time. 
It's a one time thing. 

316
00:15:22,640 --> 00:15:25,560
But we would love to have dinner
again, right? 

317
00:15:25,560 --> 00:15:28,360
We would like this for this to 
be a regular thing. 

318
00:16:14,200 --> 00:16:16,840
And on the influencer side, 
influencers want nothing more 

319
00:16:16,840 --> 00:16:19,560
than regular brands to work with
a long term engagement. 

320
00:16:19,800 --> 00:16:22,800
And some will. 
It's kind of ironic because if 

321
00:16:22,800 --> 00:16:25,520
you go out to Instagram and you 
start D Ming influencers, 

322
00:16:25,720 --> 00:16:27,840
crickets, nobody is going to 
reply to you. 

323
00:16:27,840 --> 00:16:29,840
It's going to be very hard to 
get a hold of people. 

324
00:16:30,040 --> 00:16:33,400
And then you start talking to 
them on a platform like ours and

325
00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:36,760
they'll say, oh, hey, you want 
to sign up for three months, six

326
00:16:36,760 --> 00:16:38,440
months. 
But that's kind of the beauty of

327
00:16:38,440 --> 00:16:41,640
the collab is like, we're going 
to do this once and to see how 

328
00:16:41,640 --> 00:16:45,080
we do yes, let them know, hey, 
here's our goals and here's how 

329
00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:47,120
you can sell. 
Also, I think they kind of know 

330
00:16:47,120 --> 00:16:50,680
like from the content that 
they're creating. 

331
00:16:50,960 --> 00:16:53,840
I, I like to go hands off 
because they're called creators 

332
00:16:53,840 --> 00:16:55,160
for a reason. 
They can do a much better job 

333
00:16:55,160 --> 00:16:57,600
than I can come up with. 
And I like to be as hands off as

334
00:16:57,600 --> 00:16:59,440
I can. 
Like, hey you, I'm going to send

335
00:16:59,440 --> 00:17:01,560
you this and you do your thing, 
right? 

336
00:17:01,800 --> 00:17:05,040
But let them know for sure the 
business goals and especially 

337
00:17:05,040 --> 00:17:07,839
the mechanics of it. 
Like, hey, if we're selling this

338
00:17:07,839 --> 00:17:11,400
product, can you get people back
to this page specifically? 

339
00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:14,920
So here's the URL and here's 
where we want them to go so that

340
00:17:14,920 --> 00:17:17,040
we can sell. 
And I want to be able to track 

341
00:17:17,040 --> 00:17:19,200
the sale so that we can work 
together again next month. 

342
00:17:19,480 --> 00:17:23,240
In the kind of light of setting 
expectations and doing gifting 

343
00:17:23,240 --> 00:17:26,920
campaign, how should a brand 
kind of get up in the morning 

344
00:17:26,920 --> 00:17:29,800
and set themselves right with 
all the influencers to make sure

345
00:17:29,800 --> 00:17:32,680
that they can either use or not 
use, but know what they want to 

346
00:17:32,680 --> 00:17:34,760
do with the content or at least 
get their options open? 

347
00:17:35,600 --> 00:17:37,880
Yeah, great question. 
And that comes up a lot, Nick. 

348
00:17:37,880 --> 00:17:41,840
And often we'll have brands who 
want to do AB or C or some 

349
00:17:41,840 --> 00:17:46,400
combination or D or E or F and 
anything is possible. 

350
00:17:46,600 --> 00:17:49,160
But the expectations to your 
point are very important because

351
00:17:49,160 --> 00:17:52,960
by industry default, it's A. 
So if you just start working 

352
00:17:52,960 --> 00:17:57,000
with someone, the expectation on
the influencer on the creator 

353
00:17:57,000 --> 00:17:59,760
side is that it's going to be a,
they're going to create the 

354
00:17:59,760 --> 00:18:04,000
content, they are going to post 
it on their social media feeds 

355
00:18:04,280 --> 00:18:07,960
and it belongs to them. 
And you could then jump in with 

356
00:18:08,320 --> 00:18:13,320
B in terms of sharing it because
that's also possible via the 

357
00:18:13,320 --> 00:18:16,400
platforms. 
But then there's no hey, you 

358
00:18:16,400 --> 00:18:19,400
see, we're, we're, we're running
this on our side. 

359
00:18:19,640 --> 00:18:22,200
Not that it's, it's very doable 
to do that. 

360
00:18:22,200 --> 00:18:26,920
So if you would like the content
either after they post or in 

361
00:18:26,920 --> 00:18:31,320
lieu of the influencer posting, 
you wanna come out and let them 

362
00:18:31,320 --> 00:18:33,400
know that I like to do it just 
in the collab listing. 

363
00:18:33,400 --> 00:18:36,120
Like, hey, if we're just looking
for UGC, the user generated 

364
00:18:36,120 --> 00:18:39,120
content and let's say we just 
wanna post it to our site and we

365
00:18:39,120 --> 00:18:42,080
just want you to create it, 
let's just come out and say that

366
00:18:42,080 --> 00:18:44,560
like, hey, we are paying 150. 
Dollars. 

367
00:18:44,560 --> 00:18:46,960
This is the job, Yeah. 
We want you to do this. 

368
00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:48,080
Yeah. 
Yeah, this is the job. 

369
00:18:48,680 --> 00:18:52,000
And by the way, then I would 
like to review it before. 

370
00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:55,200
So I would like 1 revision and, 
and let's just outline 

371
00:18:55,240 --> 00:18:57,880
everything because that really 
clears a lot of things up. 

372
00:18:58,160 --> 00:19:03,160
You do see the disagreements 
later and and you don't want to 

373
00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:05,400
have the disagreements later 
because that's when both parties

374
00:19:05,600 --> 00:19:07,200
get offended and they get mad at
each other. 

375
00:19:07,200 --> 00:19:09,800
And that's what somebody like me
has to kind of step in and. 

376
00:19:10,320 --> 00:19:11,760
And. 
Mediate, right, because I and I,

377
00:19:12,720 --> 00:19:15,560
as I follow the communication 
change because they're both 

378
00:19:15,560 --> 00:19:18,320
asking me to look at it and I 
can see where the, the 

379
00:19:18,440 --> 00:19:21,640
communication fails because the 
generally the, the brand is not 

380
00:19:21,640 --> 00:19:25,080
specific and the influencer 
assumes a, they always assume I 

381
00:19:25,080 --> 00:19:27,800
will create the content. 
I will do it once and then I 

382
00:19:27,800 --> 00:19:30,840
will post it like it or not. 
And that's kind of the default. 

383
00:19:30,840 --> 00:19:34,000
So if you want something else as
a brand, make sure you say that 

384
00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:36,200
like, hey, I would like to see 
this before you post it. 

385
00:19:36,200 --> 00:19:39,400
I would like 1 give me one 
revision on it. 

386
00:19:39,640 --> 00:19:42,920
If you're sensitive to what the 
content is, you have to kind of 

387
00:19:42,920 --> 00:19:45,800
say that. 
I would say as a brand, it's not

388
00:19:45,800 --> 00:19:47,760
really fair to change the rules 
after. 

389
00:19:47,760 --> 00:19:50,440
You can't say, hey, I don't like
that. 

390
00:19:50,440 --> 00:19:53,080
If you didn't kind of provision 
for it or you can't say, hey, 

391
00:19:53,320 --> 00:19:55,280
this didn't sell anything, I'm 
not going to pay you. 

392
00:19:55,280 --> 00:19:59,160
That's not cool either because 
influencer made the video. 

393
00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:02,280
You know, to the best of their 
ability, right? 

394
00:20:02,280 --> 00:20:05,480
So as a brand, you want to 
define the rules early on. 

395
00:20:05,480 --> 00:20:07,280
And, and honestly, it's 
something you can do. 

396
00:20:07,280 --> 00:20:09,200
And this is something we do 
provide our clients with. 

397
00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:13,040
I had our, our attorney whipped 
up a nice little 4 page 

398
00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:18,080
agreement, very informal, but 
it'll, it's something that you 

399
00:20:18,080 --> 00:20:20,800
can put and you can put the 
bullet points in, Hey, here's 

400
00:20:20,800 --> 00:20:24,280
what we're looking for. 
We're looking for this XY and Z 

401
00:20:24,480 --> 00:20:27,040
and you send it via Hello sign 
and the influencer sign and 

402
00:20:27,040 --> 00:20:28,840
you're just, you're all the same
page going in. 

403
00:20:28,840 --> 00:20:31,960
And it's not something you're 
not going to sue them over $200 

404
00:20:31,960 --> 00:20:33,760
if things go awry. 
But it really helps set those 

405
00:20:33,760 --> 00:20:36,200
expectations and gets everyone 
on the same page. 

406
00:20:36,200 --> 00:20:38,920
Because I do think to your 
initial point, it's very 

407
00:20:38,920 --> 00:20:43,080
important that that the industry
default is that the influencers 

408
00:20:43,080 --> 00:20:45,720
can just can produce something 
and post it. 

409
00:20:45,880 --> 00:20:48,800
So if you want something 
different, it's very possible, 

410
00:20:48,800 --> 00:20:51,480
but just say it so that everyone
knows going into it. 

411
00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:54,800
Going into 2025, what do you 
think? 

412
00:20:54,800 --> 00:20:56,480
Let's start with challenges and 
then we'll talk about like 

413
00:20:56,480 --> 00:20:58,600
opportunities, but what do you 
think some of the biggest 

414
00:20:58,600 --> 00:21:03,000
challenges to globally and, and 
US specifically, some of the 

415
00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:04,840
biggest challenges merchants are
probably going to come up 

416
00:21:04,840 --> 00:21:06,840
against as soon as kind of 
everyone's recovered from 

417
00:21:06,840 --> 00:21:11,560
Christmas, yeah. 
I think that in 2025, paid ads 

418
00:21:11,560 --> 00:21:16,040
are going to continue to go up 
because what are we going to do?

419
00:21:16,040 --> 00:21:19,160
It's just it's the cost of doing
business on that end of the 

420
00:21:19,160 --> 00:21:23,960
spectrum. 
So you, they have you, that's 

421
00:21:23,960 --> 00:21:26,280
this, that's the agreement that 
you have with them, right? 

422
00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:29,240
So paid ads are going to go up. 
So merchants are going to look 

423
00:21:29,280 --> 00:21:35,040
to increase their return on ad 
spend, which means lowering 

424
00:21:35,040 --> 00:21:37,200
their cost per acquisition, 
right? 

425
00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:41,240
And so that can happen in a 
million different ways, right? 

426
00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:44,440
I'd already said before like 
there isn't one way to do this. 

427
00:21:45,840 --> 00:21:50,600
And so I, you know, a merchant 
looking back on what happened 

428
00:21:50,760 --> 00:21:53,960
during Black Friday, Cyber 
Monday and the Christmas 

429
00:21:53,960 --> 00:21:57,720
holiday, some, some things they 
want to look at would be like, 

430
00:21:57,800 --> 00:22:00,440
you know, did they get a bunch 
of customer service complaints 

431
00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:03,160
about their website because 
things were broken, right? 

432
00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:05,680
What does that tell you? 
Maybe you need to invest in a 

433
00:22:05,680 --> 00:22:10,080
new experience, right? 
You can look back at your 

434
00:22:10,080 --> 00:22:14,080
conversion rate on specific 
landing pages or offers. 

435
00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:16,600
If you don't have a landing page
strategy, that might be an 

436
00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:21,680
amazing thing to invest in in 
Q1, the performance of your 

437
00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:25,720
website. 
We're obviously a Shopify agency

438
00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:29,240
through and through. 
That's we anything we build is 

439
00:22:29,240 --> 00:22:34,560
on the Shopify platform. 
But you know, if you're on like 

440
00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:41,720
some bespoke platform or you 
know some legacy platform and 

441
00:22:41,720 --> 00:22:44,280
you're thinking about making a 
move to Shopify, do it in 

442
00:22:44,280 --> 00:22:46,120
January. 
Please start that conversation 

443
00:22:46,120 --> 00:22:48,680
in January if you reach out in 
October. 

444
00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:50,000
I'm going to. 
Stay. 

445
00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:53,440
We're doing it next January 
because that takes time to do it

446
00:22:53,440 --> 00:22:56,080
right. 
You'll get a better deal 

447
00:22:56,080 --> 00:22:58,120
actually in January, if I'm 
going to be honest with you, 

448
00:22:58,120 --> 00:23:02,040
because if we have to like work 
harder, we're going to charge 

449
00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:05,000
you more. 
And not even me, like that's all

450
00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:07,280
agencies do this. 
Like if you put us under a time 

451
00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:08,440
crunch, they're going to charge 
you more money. 

452
00:23:09,840 --> 00:23:12,600
So I guess another potentially 
quite tough question, but 

453
00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:14,760
something that you must be 
dealing with regularly is how do

454
00:23:14,760 --> 00:23:18,560
you bring that story to life 
when it's just there's only so 

455
00:23:18,560 --> 00:23:22,280
many pixels on a screen that you
can control, You know, how do 

456
00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:24,840
you actually bring that story to
life to people So they buy into 

457
00:23:24,840 --> 00:23:27,120
you, buy into the product, buy 
into your business. 

458
00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:30,000
I think it's. 
It's definitely a combination of

459
00:23:31,240 --> 00:23:34,680
what I put in my captions and 
posts, or I'll do certain videos

460
00:23:34,680 --> 00:23:37,080
that have voice overs that kind 
of give like a little background

461
00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:40,160
behind like everything that I 
put into this, all the thoughts 

462
00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:42,880
I put into it, how many 
different drafts I went through 

463
00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:45,760
for it. 
And then I also interact with 

464
00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:48,200
people on my story. 
So it's just like finding so 

465
00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:51,280
many different ways to interact 
with people and let them know 

466
00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:54,360
what I'm making and how I got to
this. 

467
00:23:55,520 --> 00:23:57,120
Yeah. 
Nice, nice. 

468
00:23:57,120 --> 00:24:00,000
And it's such a powerful age to 
be alive, I think to be able to 

469
00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:03,240
just like hit record and within 
a few minutes actually have, I 

470
00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:05,120
mean, the same way we're 
recording this now, like we 

471
00:24:05,120 --> 00:24:07,120
suddenly got something that to, 
you know, to some people is 

472
00:24:07,120 --> 00:24:09,240
really interesting and to others
is so powerful actually of 

473
00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:10,680
going, do you know what? 
That's it. 

474
00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:12,440
I'm going to build a business 
out the thing that I've been 

475
00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:14,800
passionate about before and 
listening to your story. 

476
00:24:15,600 --> 00:24:17,120
But it doesn't kind of stop 
there, does it? 

477
00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:20,360
You've got, well, you've got 
half a million followers, I 

478
00:24:20,360 --> 00:24:23,240
think across social at the 
moment that given that you've 

479
00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:26,360
only been running, what, 2 1/2 
years, just say April 20, two, 2

480
00:24:26,360 --> 00:24:29,760
1/2 years until now, how have 
you grown such an audience in 

481
00:24:29,760 --> 00:24:36,920
such a short space of time? 
OK, so definitely the the main 

482
00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:40,480
answer is process videos. 
Have you heard of the show, How 

483
00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:42,400
it's made? 
Actually, yes, yeah, yeah, of 

484
00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:42,960
course. 
I. 

485
00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:45,800
Loved that show so much watching
like. 

486
00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:48,080
Milk bottles being filled up in 
a factory and you're like, 

487
00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:50,920
that's how they get milk from a 
cow to a bottle to my house. 

488
00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:53,920
That makes sense and I don't. 
Think a lot of people realize 

489
00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:57,160
how much time goes behind, just 
like basic things, basic 

490
00:24:57,160 --> 00:25:01,000
everyday things. 
But also everyone's so 

491
00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:02,920
interested in it too. 
I think. 

492
00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:09,520
At least I am. 
Yeah, so I, I looked at creators

493
00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:11,760
that were similar to me or 
artists that were similar to me 

494
00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:17,120
and basically took their video 
style and made it into my own 

495
00:25:17,120 --> 00:25:22,240
with my own creations. 
And I also started a TikTok 

496
00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:26,520
account for our cats. 
We have 3 cats and it's, it did 

497
00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:28,080
really well. 
And that's when I was like, oh, 

498
00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:30,600
I can actually maybe do an 
online business and this is how 

499
00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:33,840
it would market it without 
paying for ads, which would be 

500
00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:37,520
like a huge amount of money that
I just didn't have to spend. 

501
00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:41,680
So process videos helped me grow
so quickly. 

502
00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:45,240
And the first summer that I 
started growing, I think I grew 

503
00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:50,400
like 80,000 in the summer or 
100,000, which is terrifying, by

504
00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:52,400
the way. 
It's much nicer to have a slow 

505
00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:54,240
burn, but I'm really happy it 
happened too. 

506
00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:58,000
Yeah, of course. 
When you say viral in a ceiling 

507
00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:01,680
painting video, I loved your 
comment of like why that video? 

508
00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:05,760
What I guess in your experience,
I know you kind of 10 1/2 years 

509
00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:09,960
into this, in your experience, 
like what, what determines do 

510
00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:12,720
you think that like to make a 
video go viral on kind of 

511
00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:15,560
Instagram, TikTok? 
What, what, where do you think 

512
00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:17,920
the algorithm goes? 
Like, OK, this is some really 

513
00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:19,680
good content. 
I'm going to push it to 

514
00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:21,360
everybody. 
Well. 

515
00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:25,720
You know, sometimes I have no 
idea, but me neither. 

516
00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:28,640
I think most. 
Of the time, it's when you have 

517
00:26:28,640 --> 00:26:31,360
something that's really 
eye-catching in the start. 

518
00:26:31,360 --> 00:26:34,960
Like sometimes I like to start 
my process videos just like in 

519
00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:37,440
the middle of a process. 
So just grab someone's attention

520
00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:39,920
or I put a title on it. 
I think with the ceiling 

521
00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:43,920
painting video, it was because 
I'm, you know, the views from 

522
00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:48,360
like below and it's looking up 
at me and I was just painting 

523
00:26:48,360 --> 00:26:51,920
it. 
I had these taped lines on my 

524
00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:55,040
ceiling because I painted like a
bunch of different colors going 

525
00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:58,120
up onto it. 
So it's just like a weird thing 

526
00:26:58,120 --> 00:26:59,720
to see. 
And it was a short video. 

527
00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:01,840
I meant to post it as a story on
TikTok. 

528
00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:05,840
And because of that, I I think 
that's why I took off. 

529
00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:07,720
It was short. 
It was a weird angle to start 

530
00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:08,720
from. 
And people were like, what the 

531
00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:11,200
heck's going on? 
And so they stayed and that just

532
00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:13,280
pushed it to a bunch of people. 
Yeah. 

533
00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:13,560
Yeah. 
I've. 

534
00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:16,880
Certainly been sold to by loads 
of videos going like, hey, you 

535
00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:20,120
can make your grass look really 
cool and the edges by trimming 

536
00:27:20,120 --> 00:27:21,640
them like this. 
And I'm like, I need that 

537
00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:24,040
product or like, I'm going to 
try that with my strimmer, see 

538
00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:26,200
what I can see what results I 
can get on the grass in the 

539
00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:28,400
garden. 
But yeah, I think, I think it's 

540
00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:29,880
going back to what you said 
earlier. 

541
00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:32,040
People are fascinated by how 
it's made, like where things 

542
00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:35,200
actually come from. 
I also love those. 

543
00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:37,360
I don't know if you've seen them
recently, but it just reminded 

544
00:27:37,360 --> 00:27:40,120
me of the when you put, they put
stuff in hydraulic presses. 

545
00:27:40,120 --> 00:27:42,880
So they put like a load of 
Skittles in and then they press 

546
00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:45,400
them and all these like this 
rainbow just pops out as 

547
00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:47,720
Skittles and stuff. 
And people are fascinated. 

548
00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:49,120
But they always build it up, 
don't they? 

549
00:27:49,120 --> 00:27:51,280
It's always like Skittles 
hydraulic press. 

550
00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:54,120
Down it goes and then it cuts 
and it's like, hey, it's such 

551
00:27:54,120 --> 00:27:55,960
and such laboratories. 
We're doing this, this and this,

552
00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:57,040
and you're like trying to 
Skittles. 

553
00:27:57,040 --> 00:27:58,280
I would be. 
So mad. 

554
00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:01,320
No, OK. 
I don't like that marketing. 

555
00:28:02,360 --> 00:28:04,200
No, it works, but it is it 
works. 

556
00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:05,760
Frustrating. 
But. 

557
00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:08,680
Yes, but I'm like, I want to see
that being squished.