1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:02,240 Today on the Winning with Shopify podcast. 2 00:00:02,480 --> 00:00:06,280 The current logo was the one that was served up first and I 3 00:00:06,280 --> 00:00:07,000 hated it. I. 4 00:00:07,000 --> 00:00:09,440 Think it's definitely been a balance of keeping it authentic 5 00:00:09,440 --> 00:00:12,960 with those core users who really started and helped organically 6 00:00:12,960 --> 00:00:15,080 grow the brand. If you're carrying the stuff out 7 00:00:15,080 --> 00:00:17,800 into the Backcountry or into the mountains, like wait, really 8 00:00:17,800 --> 00:00:19,560 does matter. Show me some mud. 9 00:00:19,680 --> 00:00:21,360 Like I want to see mud being splattered. 10 00:00:21,360 --> 00:00:23,640 I want to see it in a lake. It really comes down to making 11 00:00:23,640 --> 00:00:25,520 sure that everything we're adding is based off of a 12 00:00:25,520 --> 00:00:26,840 necessity. People are cut. 13 00:00:26,840 --> 00:00:29,200 They're stopping and asking, hey, what is that? 14 00:00:29,200 --> 00:00:32,240 Like, why are you who's smiling when you're busting your butt 15 00:00:32,240 --> 00:00:40,000 going up a trail? Hello and welcome to another 16 00:00:40,000 --> 00:00:41,680 episode of the Winning with Shopify podcast. 17 00:00:41,680 --> 00:00:43,160 If you've never tuned in before, my name's Nick. 18 00:00:43,160 --> 00:00:44,920 You're going to get very bored of my voice if you hit that 19 00:00:44,920 --> 00:00:46,840 subscribe button. If you're listening and haven't 20 00:00:46,840 --> 00:00:51,000 subscribed, though, you are in the 80 to 90% of our viewers on 21 00:00:51,000 --> 00:00:53,080 YouTube and some of the other channels as well, but YouTube 22 00:00:53,080 --> 00:00:54,880 especially, please hit that subscribe button. 23 00:00:54,880 --> 00:00:57,240 It really helps us out. If you haven't already, check 24 00:00:57,240 --> 00:00:58,520 out the Growth Hub, our community. 25 00:00:58,760 --> 00:01:02,000 And one thing I'm flagging more and more 'cause we're doing more 26 00:01:02,000 --> 00:01:04,440 and more with it, and there's a lovely new design on it that 27 00:01:04,440 --> 00:01:07,280 Saguna have created for us as well, is join our newsletter. 28 00:01:07,280 --> 00:01:09,520 We're sending out offers and a whole range of other bits of 29 00:01:09,520 --> 00:01:11,480 info, bits of news and other stuff. 30 00:01:11,480 --> 00:01:13,360 And you might even see some podcast content or might have 31 00:01:13,360 --> 00:01:15,720 seen some already along a similar thread. 32 00:01:15,720 --> 00:01:18,840 So make sure you sign up and get involved with us on my notes 33 00:01:18,840 --> 00:01:20,400 today. We've got an amazing brand. 34 00:01:20,400 --> 00:01:21,880 I've actually met these guys before. 35 00:01:21,880 --> 00:01:23,440 One of them is part of our community. 36 00:01:23,440 --> 00:01:25,480 The products are incredible and I'm very excited to hear a 37 00:01:25,480 --> 00:01:26,960 little bit more. They're called Hyper like 38 00:01:26,960 --> 00:01:28,520 Mountain gear. And we're delighted to be joined 39 00:01:28,520 --> 00:01:31,400 by not one, but two guests, Mike, who's the founder, and 40 00:01:31,400 --> 00:01:32,720 Jackie, who is marketing director. 41 00:01:32,920 --> 00:01:34,360 So without further ado, we're going to start with you. 42 00:01:34,360 --> 00:01:36,440 Mike, welcome to the show. How are you? 43 00:01:36,760 --> 00:01:38,080 I'm great. Thank you for having me. 44 00:01:38,080 --> 00:01:40,600 It's good to be here. Well, it's a pleasure to have 45 00:01:40,600 --> 00:01:42,480 you on. And if anyone's not watching on 46 00:01:42,480 --> 00:01:44,880 video, Mike, you have some products behind you as well to 47 00:01:44,880 --> 00:01:47,520 grab some a bit later and show us some of the bits and pieces 48 00:01:47,520 --> 00:01:49,800 while we're talking about them. But just before that, you are 49 00:01:49,800 --> 00:01:51,320 the founder. I mean, just give us a quick 50 00:01:51,320 --> 00:01:53,560 overview to your background. How long have you been running 51 00:01:53,560 --> 00:01:55,120 this business? Why did you start it in the 52 00:01:55,120 --> 00:01:56,360 first place? Yeah, great. 53 00:01:57,400 --> 00:01:58,720 Yeah. So my background's a little 54 00:01:58,720 --> 00:02:01,280 varied. I've had kind of three major 55 00:02:01,280 --> 00:02:06,400 passions in life that I've pursued, which revolved around 56 00:02:06,480 --> 00:02:11,280 music, food and the outdoors. So, you know, most of my life, 57 00:02:11,280 --> 00:02:13,560 like prior to starting this business, was in the music 58 00:02:13,560 --> 00:02:17,960 industry. I started as a guitar player and 59 00:02:17,960 --> 00:02:20,880 then quickly realized that I could make more money as an 60 00:02:20,880 --> 00:02:23,840 audio engineer. So it transitioned into that 61 00:02:23,840 --> 00:02:28,320 world and that led me to touring the world with major rock'n'roll 62 00:02:28,320 --> 00:02:34,480 bands, including the Eagles, and solo tours with Don Henley and 63 00:02:34,480 --> 00:02:37,920 other other major bands. I got kind of tired of living on 64 00:02:37,920 --> 00:02:44,680 the road and dove into the culinary world, not necessarily 65 00:02:44,680 --> 00:02:48,760 as a career path, but I said if I have to eat, I want to learn 66 00:02:48,760 --> 00:02:53,440 how to eat well and cook well. So I devoted 3 years to working 67 00:02:53,600 --> 00:02:56,800 my way up into the best restaurants in the country, 68 00:02:57,280 --> 00:03:00,520 which ended up at Per SE in New York City, which is Thomas 69 00:03:00,520 --> 00:03:05,480 Keller. From there I started getting 70 00:03:05,520 --> 00:03:07,280 more and more. I mean, I've always been 71 00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:11,160 backpacking and hiking and doing things in the outdoors, but it 72 00:03:11,160 --> 00:03:14,440 was my time in New York at the end of that three-year culinary 73 00:03:15,360 --> 00:03:18,960 adventure that I really started thinking about how I could do 74 00:03:18,960 --> 00:03:21,920 something in the other passion that I had in my life, which was 75 00:03:21,920 --> 00:03:26,280 the outdoors. And at the time, you know, there 76 00:03:26,280 --> 00:03:30,440 was a, the products that I was looking for were not available. 77 00:03:30,560 --> 00:03:36,640 And so that kind of led to the search for, you know, new, more 78 00:03:36,640 --> 00:03:40,440 stripped down minimalist designs, more efficient designs, 79 00:03:40,440 --> 00:03:45,800 and then coupling that with the amazing fabrics that we use that 80 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:48,680 led to, you know, the growth of Hyperlite Mountain gear. 81 00:03:48,680 --> 00:03:51,280 And that was a little over 15 years ago. 82 00:03:52,200 --> 00:03:54,200 Amazing. See 15 years it's been running 83 00:03:54,200 --> 00:03:55,680 and we're going to come back to some of those points. 84 00:03:55,920 --> 00:03:59,360 I've already sharpened my pen, if that's a phrase and and taken 85 00:03:59,360 --> 00:04:02,000 a few notes on this. But Jackie, I want to welcome 86 00:04:02,000 --> 00:04:03,760 you to the show as well. We don't always get 2 guests. 87 00:04:03,760 --> 00:04:05,520 It's an absolute pleasure. And last time they were both 88 00:04:05,520 --> 00:04:07,800 called Brian's. This is much easier for me to 89 00:04:07,800 --> 00:04:09,200 remember the difference between the both of you. 90 00:04:09,200 --> 00:04:10,880 So Jackie, how are you as well? Good. 91 00:04:11,040 --> 00:04:14,760 Hi, thanks for having me. Yeah, Jackie Berlage at Hyper 92 00:04:15,200 --> 00:04:18,160 Mountain Gear. I lead the E com team marketing 93 00:04:18,320 --> 00:04:21,600 and yeah sales. So it's it's great to be here 94 00:04:21,600 --> 00:04:24,200 too with Mike. Amazing, amazing. 95 00:04:24,200 --> 00:04:26,320 And I'm going to ask you a question that's completely off 96 00:04:26,320 --> 00:04:28,160 piece. It's only just come to mind, but 97 00:04:28,280 --> 00:04:30,680 I thought it's a good joke about mountaineering as well going off 98 00:04:30,680 --> 00:04:33,760 piece. But quick question to to to both 99 00:04:33,760 --> 00:04:36,280 of you and either of you guys can go first. 100 00:04:36,600 --> 00:04:38,720 Obviously, Mike, you're you're the founder. 101 00:04:38,720 --> 00:04:40,960 It's based on the story you've just told us. 102 00:04:40,960 --> 00:04:43,400 It's very much initially around yourself. 103 00:04:43,960 --> 00:04:46,120 How does it work for someone like yourself and Jackie who's 104 00:04:46,120 --> 00:04:48,440 come in and obviously got your own ideas? 105 00:04:48,440 --> 00:04:49,880 You want to grow things your own way. 106 00:04:50,080 --> 00:04:52,560 How do you guys manage like everything from the dynamic to 107 00:04:52,560 --> 00:04:55,800 processes to bringing some of Mike's ideas and dreams to 108 00:04:55,800 --> 00:04:58,080 fruition? I know as a founder saying to my 109 00:04:58,080 --> 00:04:59,960 team, hey, let's do this. And they're like, what on earth 110 00:04:59,960 --> 00:05:02,360 does that mean? You have to kind of explain, but 111 00:05:02,560 --> 00:05:04,280 how do you guys manage that? How does that kind of 112 00:05:04,280 --> 00:05:07,560 communication happen? Yeah, I think it's been great. 113 00:05:07,560 --> 00:05:09,800 I think it's a lot of balance and I think a lot of open 114 00:05:09,800 --> 00:05:12,680 communication. My background isn't as exciting 115 00:05:12,680 --> 00:05:15,000 as Mike's. I was definitely more from like 116 00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:17,920 the traditional brand side. So I have more like the business 117 00:05:17,920 --> 00:05:20,440 side with retail and consumer facing brands. 118 00:05:20,440 --> 00:05:24,440 I was at Timberland for a while and I worked at VF with Vans, 119 00:05:24,440 --> 00:05:26,120 North Face and Timberland as well. 120 00:05:26,120 --> 00:05:31,240 So I think definitely having more of that process and bigger 121 00:05:31,240 --> 00:05:35,040 business mindset on growth, which balancing that with how 122 00:05:35,040 --> 00:05:38,800 fast and how nimble and how flexible and how open we can be 123 00:05:38,800 --> 00:05:40,640 at Hyperlite Mountain Gear I think is great. 124 00:05:40,640 --> 00:05:43,200 I think it's a really good collaboration and balance of 125 00:05:43,680 --> 00:05:46,920 taking some ideas, but then also being able to kind of really 126 00:05:46,920 --> 00:05:49,400 make it our own and do what's right for our brand. 127 00:05:50,480 --> 00:05:52,840 Amazing, amazing. I I love that as well because I 128 00:05:52,840 --> 00:05:55,120 think, I mean, the first thing you said is it's been great. 129 00:05:55,120 --> 00:05:57,880 And I think earlier in my career when I started hiring people, 130 00:05:57,880 --> 00:06:00,680 actually understanding the, the cultural dynamics and things 131 00:06:00,680 --> 00:06:04,000 that happen within a team. I mean, in hindsight, spoiler 132 00:06:04,000 --> 00:06:05,800 alert, we're going to ask a question kind of similar to this 133 00:06:05,800 --> 00:06:08,760 later, But if I started it again, like completely different 134 00:06:08,760 --> 00:06:11,160 set of hiring decisions, but then it's like, would I have the 135 00:06:11,160 --> 00:06:13,160 knowledge I have today when I started it again? 136 00:06:13,160 --> 00:06:15,280 That's always the thing of the journey is really, really 137 00:06:15,280 --> 00:06:17,720 important. And but Mike, I'm going to come 138 00:06:17,720 --> 00:06:19,200 back to you. Let's, let's talk, let's talk 139 00:06:19,200 --> 00:06:21,800 about high play mountain gear in a bit more detail then. 140 00:06:21,800 --> 00:06:24,520 So that was the inspiration behind it. 141 00:06:24,520 --> 00:06:27,280 But I've got in my notes, there was a real gap in the market 142 00:06:27,280 --> 00:06:30,440 that you wanted to fill. And obviously the word Hyperlite 143 00:06:30,520 --> 00:06:32,880 is a, is a really important part around the materials that you 144 00:06:32,880 --> 00:06:35,080 guys do and mounting gear kind of says what, what, what the 145 00:06:35,080 --> 00:06:37,800 product is, it delivers. What was the gap in the market 146 00:06:37,800 --> 00:06:40,560 that you specifically saw and how have you managed that over 147 00:06:40,560 --> 00:06:42,480 the last 15 years as things have grown and developed? 148 00:06:43,000 --> 00:06:44,280 Sure. Great question. 149 00:06:45,000 --> 00:06:48,120 So, you know, 1520 years ago when I was really kind of doing 150 00:06:48,120 --> 00:06:50,520 a lot more backpack, well, when I was really getting into 151 00:06:50,520 --> 00:06:54,840 backpacking, you know, all the products that were available, it 152 00:06:54,840 --> 00:06:57,720 seemed like most manufacturers kind of forgot about what the 153 00:06:57,720 --> 00:07:00,880 consumer really needs or they weren't really going out and 154 00:07:00,880 --> 00:07:03,680 doing the activities as much. And it was all about like the 155 00:07:03,720 --> 00:07:07,240 newest bells and whistles and how many more features you can 156 00:07:07,240 --> 00:07:11,840 add and how many more pockets. And and so, you know, I quickly 157 00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:17,440 realized, you know, shopping for packs 2025 years ago that, you 158 00:07:17,440 --> 00:07:20,840 know, everything was overbuilt. And if you're carrying the stuff 159 00:07:20,840 --> 00:07:23,480 out into the Backcountry or into the mountains, like weight 160 00:07:23,480 --> 00:07:26,840 really does matter, you know, and durability really matters at 161 00:07:26,840 --> 00:07:30,560 that point, too. So yeah, I remember, you know, 162 00:07:30,960 --> 00:07:34,000 buying my first couple bags and they were really big, big 163 00:07:34,000 --> 00:07:35,600 backpacks. You know, I'm like, this is 164 00:07:36,040 --> 00:07:38,880 overkill. And then I went all the way the 165 00:07:38,920 --> 00:07:43,520 other way to finding little kids book bags and, you know, 166 00:07:43,880 --> 00:07:46,760 anything that had shoulder straps that I could like carry 167 00:07:46,800 --> 00:07:49,080 the products I needed to go out for multiple days into the 168 00:07:49,080 --> 00:07:51,600 Backcountry. And if that really kind of led 169 00:07:51,600 --> 00:07:54,880 to, you know, a true understanding of what is 170 00:07:54,880 --> 00:08:00,400 required and needed out there. And we started designing and 171 00:08:00,760 --> 00:08:03,400 building the products that we felt would really fit that 172 00:08:03,400 --> 00:08:05,800 market. I, I love that. 173 00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:08,040 And I'm going to ask a quick sub question and this might actually 174 00:08:08,040 --> 00:08:10,440 be more directed at yourself, Jackie, I think kind of on the 175 00:08:10,440 --> 00:08:13,800 ground in marketing that is, given the, the movement into 176 00:08:13,800 --> 00:08:16,920 influencer marketing and influencers using stuff, how, 177 00:08:16,920 --> 00:08:19,440 how much do you think that's changed for both big brands and 178 00:08:19,440 --> 00:08:21,960 small brands like you guys? I say I, I don't want to say 179 00:08:21,960 --> 00:08:24,040 small, sorry, but very nimble. Like you said earlier, Jackie, 180 00:08:24,040 --> 00:08:25,440 very nimble. We make decisions, we can pivot 181 00:08:25,440 --> 00:08:27,880 quickly when something changes. I just want to give a quick 182 00:08:27,880 --> 00:08:30,720 shout out to our sponsors, Yost. They are the go to tool for 183 00:08:30,720 --> 00:08:33,559 getting your content SEO ready and Google loved from keywords 184 00:08:33,559 --> 00:08:35,760 to readability and those all important meta tags, which I 185 00:08:35,760 --> 00:08:38,200 know a lot about. Yost makes it easy. 186 00:08:38,280 --> 00:08:41,919 Right now, our listeners can get 15% off all WordPress purchases 187 00:08:41,919 --> 00:08:45,320 if you use the Yost plug in and WordPress and also on monthly 188 00:08:45,360 --> 00:08:47,560 Shopify plans. For your first six months, just 189 00:08:47,560 --> 00:08:53,240 use the code WWS 1/5. So WWS 15 at checkout@yost.com. 190 00:08:53,240 --> 00:08:56,800 That's WWS 1550% of for better visibility, more clicks and a 191 00:08:56,800 --> 00:08:59,720 healthier website, let Yost handle the SEO so you can focus 192 00:08:59,720 --> 00:09:03,120 on what you do best. Now back to the show, how is the 193 00:09:03,120 --> 00:09:05,600 influence of the world and the rise of YouTube and and 194 00:09:05,600 --> 00:09:08,760 Instagram and TikTok changed? Actually watching people using 195 00:09:08,760 --> 00:09:12,680 products outdoors to go, there's clearly a problem here and we 196 00:09:12,680 --> 00:09:15,320 can solve that very quickly. And it's wasn't, it's not 197 00:09:15,320 --> 00:09:17,360 something someone would write on a customer feedback survey, But 198 00:09:17,360 --> 00:09:19,880 having watched them try and open the bag or put it on their back 199 00:09:19,880 --> 00:09:21,360 or as you say, my it's really bulky. 200 00:09:21,360 --> 00:09:23,160 Like how much, how much do you guys use? 201 00:09:23,440 --> 00:09:25,560 Kind of just watching what people are doing in the outdoors 202 00:09:25,560 --> 00:09:27,840 online to then drive how we're going to build a product to 203 00:09:27,840 --> 00:09:30,080 solve something they might not even know is a problem. 204 00:09:31,200 --> 00:09:32,400 Yeah. I think the first part of that 205 00:09:32,400 --> 00:09:36,760 is kind of the influencer side of this is more, you know, the 206 00:09:36,760 --> 00:09:39,360 brand really started kind of organically with that 207 00:09:39,360 --> 00:09:42,840 influential movement on professionals and users who were 208 00:09:42,840 --> 00:09:45,800 really looking for the products that Mike was creating to solve 209 00:09:45,800 --> 00:09:48,120 what they were trying to do. So you have like really 210 00:09:48,120 --> 00:09:50,680 professional people, very technical people who kind of 211 00:09:50,680 --> 00:09:53,320 really led the charge of building and starting kind of at 212 00:09:53,320 --> 00:09:56,880 the beginning of it. So they were influential in that 213 00:09:56,880 --> 00:09:59,320 way, but not like the influential marketing that we 214 00:09:59,320 --> 00:10:01,680 kind of have now. So I think it's definitely been 215 00:10:01,680 --> 00:10:05,080 a balance of keeping it authentic with those core users 216 00:10:05,080 --> 00:10:08,040 who really started and helped organically grow the brand, but 217 00:10:08,040 --> 00:10:12,320 then also balancing it with the social aspect of this across 218 00:10:12,320 --> 00:10:17,000 YouTube reviewers and Instagram people who want to kind of use 219 00:10:17,000 --> 00:10:20,280 the products. But sometimes it's more the, 220 00:10:21,080 --> 00:10:22,880 it's still the intent of the product cuz you can use it 221 00:10:22,880 --> 00:10:25,120 however you want, but it's just kind of finding that right 222 00:10:25,120 --> 00:10:28,680 balance of the new shiny white packs on top of a mountain 223 00:10:28,680 --> 00:10:31,920 compared to the really dirty packs that have kind of been 224 00:10:31,920 --> 00:10:33,720 used. And you know that they're using 225 00:10:33,720 --> 00:10:36,200 it for a while and have gone on all these adventures with it. 226 00:10:36,200 --> 00:10:38,880 So again, I kind of think it's more of a balance. 227 00:10:38,880 --> 00:10:42,600 And yeah, we get a lot of great feedback from online, from 228 00:10:42,600 --> 00:10:45,640 YouTube and from Instagram, and we get a lot of feedback from 229 00:10:45,640 --> 00:10:47,240 people who aren't on those platforms. 230 00:10:47,240 --> 00:10:50,520 So I think that's kind of the balance for us is really trying 231 00:10:50,520 --> 00:10:53,880 to stay authentic with that core group of people that really kind 232 00:10:53,880 --> 00:10:55,600 of helped grow the business at the beginning. 233 00:10:55,800 --> 00:10:58,280 I'd add to that, you know, that authenticity piece is really 234 00:10:58,280 --> 00:11:01,000 important for, you know, especially for our users or 235 00:11:01,080 --> 00:11:03,440 people that are going to these places and have big goals in 236 00:11:03,440 --> 00:11:07,880 their life and big objectives. And, you know, so, you know, 237 00:11:07,880 --> 00:11:13,120 working with, with athletes and guides and, and people who would 238 00:11:13,120 --> 00:11:15,880 just have ambitious goals. I mean, and we're helping them 239 00:11:15,880 --> 00:11:18,160 achieve those goals. You know, we'll, we'll get more 240 00:11:18,160 --> 00:11:21,240 orders and, and more influence in the market through that 241 00:11:21,240 --> 00:11:25,600 versus some of the actual influencer programs where you'll 242 00:11:25,600 --> 00:11:29,680 see someone wearing a pair of jeans, you know, and a button 243 00:11:29,680 --> 00:11:32,200 down shirt on the top of a mountain like, and it's a staged 244 00:11:32,200 --> 00:11:34,400 photo that that does not work for us. 245 00:11:35,240 --> 00:11:37,560 Yeah, absolutely. And I, I sometimes when I'm 246 00:11:37,560 --> 00:11:40,840 buying certainly outdoor stuff, I, I mean, obviously people are 247 00:11:40,840 --> 00:11:43,320 always going to show the cleanest, most pristine product 248 00:11:43,320 --> 00:11:45,960 in all settings. I sometimes am like, OK, I'm 249 00:11:45,960 --> 00:11:49,640 buying a 4 by 4 to go and drive like off road, show me some mud. 250 00:11:49,640 --> 00:11:51,320 Like I want to see mud being splattered. 251 00:11:51,320 --> 00:11:53,440 I want to see it in a lake, you know, like all these, all these 252 00:11:53,440 --> 00:11:54,680 kind of going through a river like that. 253 00:11:54,680 --> 00:11:56,480 That's where I want to see the products being used. 254 00:11:57,520 --> 00:11:59,600 Complete side question. And this just came off actually 255 00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:02,200 talking about the authenticity and those initial users, so 256 00:12:02,440 --> 00:12:05,080 initial kind of influences or customers that you guys had, 257 00:12:05,360 --> 00:12:08,560 where did the logo come from? Like is there any story behind 258 00:12:08,560 --> 00:12:11,960 how you guys actually developed that as a as a logo to create 259 00:12:11,960 --> 00:12:13,600 the symbol that people now recognize? 260 00:12:14,320 --> 00:12:15,440 Yeah. I mean, that was the second 261 00:12:15,440 --> 00:12:19,520 iteration of our logo. The very first one was like a 262 00:12:19,520 --> 00:12:21,480 little bit of a mountain that just said Hyperlight mountain 263 00:12:21,480 --> 00:12:24,200 gear underneath and and that worked for us for the first like 264 00:12:24,200 --> 00:12:28,600 5-6 years. But in time we felt the logo 265 00:12:28,600 --> 00:12:32,680 didn't match the quality and the aesthetics and the feel of the 266 00:12:32,680 --> 00:12:36,160 products. So we worked with a local agency 267 00:12:36,160 --> 00:12:41,640 here that's a amazing group of people, and we went through 50 268 00:12:41,640 --> 00:12:44,120 different logo designs. And I remember this was this. 269 00:12:44,120 --> 00:12:46,840 The current logo was the one that was served up first. 270 00:12:47,280 --> 00:12:49,840 And I hated it when I first saw it. 271 00:12:49,840 --> 00:12:52,280 But then it quickly started growing on me. 272 00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:54,880 And then that's when I knew there's probably something 273 00:12:54,880 --> 00:12:58,000 there, and it's been a great logo ever since. 274 00:12:59,520 --> 00:13:01,720 Yeah, absolutely. And I'm just going to, if you 275 00:13:01,720 --> 00:13:04,400 guys just wait there one moment, I'm going to grab one of our 276 00:13:04,400 --> 00:13:07,440 T-shirts for the podcast to make the exact point of something I 277 00:13:07,440 --> 00:13:09,720 hated. So we've got these bright pink 278 00:13:09,720 --> 00:13:12,040 T-shirts and I absolutely loathe them. 279 00:13:12,040 --> 00:13:14,040 Pink is not my color. It's not. 280 00:13:14,320 --> 00:13:16,880 I like subtle branding. My house is quite minimal 281 00:13:16,880 --> 00:13:18,240 colors. My wife and I are quite 282 00:13:18,240 --> 00:13:20,200 minimalist. This is bright, which is why I 283 00:13:20,200 --> 00:13:22,760 don't wear it very often, but we keep it locked away in the 284 00:13:22,760 --> 00:13:24,480 studio. So no one says you should wear 285 00:13:24,480 --> 00:13:26,640 that to this conference because then I end up wearing it and 286 00:13:26,640 --> 00:13:27,920 it's bright pink and it's not my color. 287 00:13:27,920 --> 00:13:30,480 But the point being, actually, I love the fact you built the logo 288 00:13:30,480 --> 00:13:32,680 for the audience. Like when the designer said to 289 00:13:32,680 --> 00:13:34,880 me, we're going to make it bright pink because like now 290 00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:36,280 you're fired. That's a stupid. 291 00:13:36,280 --> 00:13:38,640 And then when he showed me on actually the podcast casting 292 00:13:38,640 --> 00:13:41,040 platforms and said, look what happens when you scroll past the 293 00:13:41,040 --> 00:13:43,480 bright pink one, they're all dark backgrounds. 294 00:13:43,480 --> 00:13:46,280 Yellow doesn't really pink bang. Everybody sees it. 295 00:13:46,480 --> 00:13:48,520 And he was absolutely right. And that's what we paid him for. 296 00:13:48,520 --> 00:13:50,760 So he wasn't fired. Our listenership went up because 297 00:13:50,760 --> 00:13:53,520 more people were intrigued. What is that bright, bright pink 298 00:13:53,520 --> 00:13:55,960 thing? And I've quite a loud voice and 299 00:13:55,960 --> 00:13:57,680 I can talk a lot as my wife would vouch. 300 00:13:57,920 --> 00:14:00,320 So actually pink does suit the brand overall, even though I 301 00:14:00,320 --> 00:14:02,200 wouldn't want to wear that T-shirt on a regular basis. 302 00:14:02,200 --> 00:14:05,520 But I think it's interesting. Again, you just described to me 303 00:14:05,520 --> 00:14:08,600 the, the way you develop the products, how you got your first 304 00:14:08,600 --> 00:14:12,240 few sales in, even the logo, it's all orientated around the 305 00:14:12,240 --> 00:14:14,640 customers. And am I right in saying then 306 00:14:14,640 --> 00:14:17,400 that that's been a huge part of the brand story, the success, 307 00:14:17,400 --> 00:14:20,480 the growth is having that communication with customers so, 308 00:14:20,520 --> 00:14:25,360 so directly? Absolutely, you know that we 309 00:14:25,360 --> 00:14:29,000 strive very hard to be a consumer centric brand and we 310 00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:31,800 need that, you know, like, you know, even to your earlier 311 00:14:31,800 --> 00:14:34,520 question, like you never know where a good idea is going to 312 00:14:34,520 --> 00:14:38,120 come from. So I love to collaborate. 313 00:14:38,240 --> 00:14:41,600 That's one of our core values here at Hyperlight Mountain 314 00:14:41,600 --> 00:14:43,720 Gear. And, you know, if we want to do 315 00:14:43,720 --> 00:14:46,280 something, a lot of times we take an idea and it's, you know, 316 00:14:46,280 --> 00:14:49,040 just drop it on the table and it's a seed at that point. 317 00:14:49,040 --> 00:14:51,640 And we pull the right teams together and we start 318 00:14:51,640 --> 00:14:54,920 brainstorming like, hey, what could we do with this idea? 319 00:14:54,920 --> 00:14:57,880 And, and we get some crazy ideas and then we get some that are 320 00:14:57,880 --> 00:15:00,320 not so awesome. But then we start to sift 321 00:15:00,320 --> 00:15:03,320 through that and we figure out what makes the most sense for 322 00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:06,440 our customers, for us. And and that's how we kind of 323 00:15:06,440 --> 00:15:09,840 develop, you know, the ideas that we go forward with. 324 00:15:10,800 --> 00:15:13,040 Amazing, amazing. And I mean, I've kind of, I've 325 00:15:13,040 --> 00:15:15,680 got it in my notes about an amazing question about your 326 00:15:15,680 --> 00:15:16,720 growth. And I feel like we've spoken 327 00:15:16,720 --> 00:15:18,800 quite a lot about this, but there's a second part that I 328 00:15:19,120 --> 00:15:20,840 really want to ask. It's one of my favorite 329 00:15:20,840 --> 00:15:23,320 questions to ask. With all your growth, are there 330 00:15:23,320 --> 00:15:26,480 any pivotal moments that completely stand out to you guys 331 00:15:26,480 --> 00:15:29,760 as being like that was a game changer or that was a day when 332 00:15:29,760 --> 00:15:32,080 just things things changed better or worse, but that's a 333 00:15:32,080 --> 00:15:35,600 day things changed. Yeah, one for me was the actual 334 00:15:35,600 --> 00:15:40,760 transition to the new logo. We saw, you know, significant 335 00:15:40,760 --> 00:15:43,640 growth through those years and, and, and several years beyond. 336 00:15:44,960 --> 00:15:48,720 You know, I'd say COVID was another, you know, a big pivotal 337 00:15:48,720 --> 00:15:51,720 moment when, you know, the lockdowns were happening and the 338 00:15:51,720 --> 00:15:53,560 only thing people could do was get outside. 339 00:15:54,800 --> 00:15:57,080 So I mean, that was a great time for the industry. 340 00:15:58,160 --> 00:16:00,480 But yeah, there, I mean, there's, there's, there's some 341 00:16:00,480 --> 00:16:02,200 big ones and there's so many little ones. 342 00:16:02,440 --> 00:16:06,400 Every day I wake up, I hear some new story, something really cool 343 00:16:06,400 --> 00:16:09,600 that happened, and it makes me proud to know that we were part 344 00:16:09,640 --> 00:16:11,760 of making those experiences happen for our users. 345 00:16:11,880 --> 00:16:14,560 Amazing, yeah, yeah, amazing, amazing. 346 00:16:14,560 --> 00:16:15,880 And, and over to your side as well. 347 00:16:15,880 --> 00:16:19,200 Jackie, from a marketing perspective, what have been some 348 00:16:19,200 --> 00:16:21,040 of the biggest strengths in the growth of the brand? 349 00:16:21,040 --> 00:16:24,040 Because this is one reason I love having you both on as well 350 00:16:24,040 --> 00:16:25,560 as Mike. You're looking at stuff from the 351 00:16:25,560 --> 00:16:28,240 cockpit and going what a beautiful set of scenery. 352 00:16:28,240 --> 00:16:29,600 Like we've made some tough decisions. 353 00:16:29,600 --> 00:16:32,160 We've made some really good decisions like over the time and 354 00:16:32,160 --> 00:16:34,240 all this is kind of change. But you're Jackie, you're much 355 00:16:34,240 --> 00:16:36,760 more on the ground of like, what are we spending on Google Ads? 356 00:16:36,760 --> 00:16:38,960 What's Meta doing? What's SEO doing right now? 357 00:16:38,960 --> 00:16:41,600 Who are we acquiring? What does that look like on the 358 00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:43,760 ground? Then having the weight of these 359 00:16:43,760 --> 00:16:46,960 kind of big ideas, very, very customer kind of centric brands, 360 00:16:47,560 --> 00:16:49,200 what are some of the things that have been pivotal to the growth 361 00:16:49,200 --> 00:16:50,560 kind of on the ground with marketing then? 362 00:16:50,680 --> 00:16:52,120 Yeah. I think we're in a moment right 363 00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:54,440 now for sure on kind of like pivotal growth for us. 364 00:16:54,440 --> 00:16:57,640 I think a lot of the strategies we had last year coming into 365 00:16:57,640 --> 00:17:02,320 this year was how do we really identify a lot of the internal 366 00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:05,000 kind of value propositions that we know people are choosing 367 00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:06,720 Hyperlate, why they're coming back to the brand. 368 00:17:06,720 --> 00:17:08,839 And then how do we think about packaging that up and 369 00:17:08,839 --> 00:17:12,079 communicating it externally to consumers in a way that can 370 00:17:12,119 --> 00:17:15,400 really be like digested and understood? 371 00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:18,520 Because we would talk about in the office and rattle things off 372 00:17:18,520 --> 00:17:20,640 like, oh, like the products are just so durable and it's so 373 00:17:20,640 --> 00:17:22,560 lightweight. And we'd go to like these values 374 00:17:22,560 --> 00:17:25,319 kind of it, but we never really packaged it together as like 375 00:17:25,319 --> 00:17:29,280 this whole proposition that could be a real big benefit for 376 00:17:29,280 --> 00:17:31,640 the consumers in a way that they can understand it. 377 00:17:31,640 --> 00:17:34,760 So we're doing a lot of campaign pushes right now specifically 378 00:17:34,760 --> 00:17:38,480 around this better backpacking idea where it's all about 379 00:17:38,480 --> 00:17:40,520 education. And it's about kind of sharing 380 00:17:40,520 --> 00:17:43,360 our value proposition and what we built and how we're standing 381 00:17:43,360 --> 00:17:46,640 on it and just why at the end of the day, going with lighter gear 382 00:17:46,640 --> 00:17:49,920 is just better for anyone trying to do any kind of adventure. 383 00:17:49,920 --> 00:17:52,880 So we're leveraging different platforms, we're trying new 384 00:17:52,880 --> 00:17:56,880 strategies and we're really kind of pushing how we're serving up 385 00:17:56,880 --> 00:17:59,840 some of these ideas to our existing consumers and to some 386 00:17:59,840 --> 00:18:03,800 new consumers, so. And as a fellow marketeer, I 387 00:18:03,800 --> 00:18:07,720 know I can almost sort of hear some of the pain in that of 388 00:18:07,720 --> 00:18:11,600 going, we've got 50 reasons why this is amazing product, which 389 00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:14,480 two or three of those 50 is the best one to say to a customer to 390 00:18:14,480 --> 00:18:17,120 get the best conversion rate. And the reality is like every 391 00:18:17,120 --> 00:18:19,080 customer is like, I want those three and someone else like 392 00:18:19,080 --> 00:18:20,720 those three were the reason these three, The reason is 393 00:18:21,120 --> 00:18:23,080 getting that across on pixels on a screen. 394 00:18:23,080 --> 00:18:26,480 And then some genius decided to develop the phone that you could 395 00:18:26,480 --> 00:18:28,840 go on the Internet on. And it was like, like, now we've 396 00:18:28,840 --> 00:18:31,120 got less pixels on the screens. Like, OK, we're going to scroll. 397 00:18:31,120 --> 00:18:32,160 We're going to scroll up and down. 398 00:18:32,680 --> 00:18:34,680 But it is a real challenge, isn't it, to work out what 399 00:18:34,680 --> 00:18:37,880 really makes the brand tick. And I guess to ask the sub 400 00:18:37,880 --> 00:18:41,000 question on this, have there been any really important 401 00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:43,160 moments for you guys where you've had to make a decision 402 00:18:43,160 --> 00:18:45,680 and almost go? We love the hyper light, the 403 00:18:45,680 --> 00:18:48,800 durability, but actually there's something really, we think very 404 00:18:48,800 --> 00:18:52,160 plain, boring and quite vanilla that people buy the product or 405 00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:53,680 based on. Like it's actually, it's got 406 00:18:53,680 --> 00:18:55,640 amazing packaging and it's a gift and I just want to watch 407 00:18:55,640 --> 00:18:58,080 someone open the packaging. Or have there been any learnings 408 00:18:58,080 --> 00:19:00,600 like that that have come out of the woodwork at the same time or 409 00:19:00,760 --> 00:19:02,640 or do you feel actually we managed to get quite close to 410 00:19:02,640 --> 00:19:05,320 the core from the get go? I mean, I'd say there's a couple 411 00:19:05,320 --> 00:19:07,400 and we've obviously tried lots of things over the years. 412 00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:12,240 And you know, another like real kind of value to us is trying to 413 00:19:12,240 --> 00:19:15,520 keep it as simple as possible, whether that's the messaging or 414 00:19:15,520 --> 00:19:17,120 the processes that we put in place. 415 00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:21,320 And as some of us may know, like getting to that simplicity is 416 00:19:21,320 --> 00:19:24,560 actually very difficult. And to me, it's a process of 417 00:19:24,560 --> 00:19:26,600 elimination. Like tell me everything that we 418 00:19:26,600 --> 00:19:30,680 could possibly do, OK, how are we going to whittle that down to 419 00:19:30,680 --> 00:19:33,000 the two or three things that are the most impactful? 420 00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:35,400 And we do that on campaign ideas. 421 00:19:35,400 --> 00:19:38,000 We do that on our products. We do that on everything. 422 00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:41,280 I mean, you look at even the color scheme that we have, it's 423 00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:43,440 black or white. That's your only choice for 424 00:19:43,440 --> 00:19:45,680 colors of products. We joke. 425 00:19:45,760 --> 00:19:48,640 Apparently color's too heavy, so we don't offer. 426 00:19:49,520 --> 00:19:53,360 I love that. But you know, but striving for 427 00:19:53,360 --> 00:19:57,280 that simplicity is something that we're constantly doing and 428 00:19:57,560 --> 00:19:59,520 and I think that's what resonates with people when they 429 00:19:59,520 --> 00:20:04,040 see our marketing messaging or our value propositions or or the 430 00:20:04,040 --> 00:20:07,400 features on the products. I, you reminded me of a really 431 00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:10,200 funny, I'm half writing it down. I don't know why I'm saying it 432 00:20:10,200 --> 00:20:13,640 now, but the, the thing I remember is there was an agency 433 00:20:13,640 --> 00:20:15,800 we used to partner with quite a lot called Monochrome. 434 00:20:15,800 --> 00:20:17,240 And obviously monochrome is black and white. 435 00:20:17,640 --> 00:20:20,120 And they had a thing on their website where you basically like 436 00:20:20,120 --> 00:20:22,320 a little light switch like on a lamp that was hanging down. 437 00:20:22,320 --> 00:20:24,760 And you could click on it and it would make the website full 438 00:20:24,760 --> 00:20:26,200 colour. And then you click it and it 439 00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:29,080 would go black and white. And it would say you are now if 440 00:20:29,080 --> 00:20:30,960 you, if you were to look at this site, and I think it's for 441 00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:34,920 something like 7 1/2 years in black and white versus 7 1/2 442 00:20:34,920 --> 00:20:38,120 years in colour, because black and white is easier for a screen 443 00:20:38,120 --> 00:20:40,760 to project. You've planted like 1/3 of a 444 00:20:40,760 --> 00:20:43,280 tree. And it was like a statistic like 445 00:20:43,280 --> 00:20:46,040 that, that there's less server capacity and screen capacity 446 00:20:46,040 --> 00:20:48,280 itself to show something that's black and white versus colour, 447 00:20:48,280 --> 00:20:50,560 which I thought was hilarious. But I mean, it almost sounds 448 00:20:50,560 --> 00:20:52,600 like Henry Ford that you can have whatever colour you want, 449 00:20:52,600 --> 00:20:55,000 but it's black and almost saying, let's take the choices 450 00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:58,320 out that actually people struck. And I wonder, I don't know if 451 00:20:58,320 --> 00:21:01,080 you've got any stats on this, but I wonder if, and maybe it's 452 00:21:01,080 --> 00:21:04,800 just that today it's purely, I wonder, I wonder how many people 453 00:21:05,080 --> 00:21:07,440 and now buy more products because you've taken too many of 454 00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:09,720 the hard decisions away from them of going 0. 455 00:21:09,720 --> 00:21:12,000 Do I like the green, the blue? I mean, even just think about 456 00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:14,480 this polo shirt I'm wearing and it's first polo shirt I've owned 457 00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:16,640 in years. And even then I was like, I was 458 00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:18,440 like, I'm just going to buy a blue polo shirt and I bought a 459 00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:19,720 green one. But there was like another 460 00:21:19,720 --> 00:21:22,480 minute decision of like, oh, look at all the models wearing 461 00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:24,240 all the different colours. And so I don't know if you guys 462 00:21:24,240 --> 00:21:26,800 have any stats now or people say like, you know, it's so easy to 463 00:21:26,800 --> 00:21:28,040 buy from you because I don't have to. 464 00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:30,600 The colours of the two colours are just really nice and that's 465 00:21:30,600 --> 00:21:31,640 it. And I don't have to think about 466 00:21:31,640 --> 00:21:33,560 it. You know, there's a lot more 467 00:21:33,800 --> 00:21:37,040 thought and process and technology behind that whole 468 00:21:37,320 --> 00:21:40,520 conversation, which we can we can get into as we start 469 00:21:40,520 --> 00:21:42,920 thinking about fabrics. But really it was the fabrics 470 00:21:42,920 --> 00:21:45,360 that drove that to use, the fabrics that we do and the 471 00:21:45,360 --> 00:21:48,640 fibers we use, which is dynamic fiber, which is the strongest 472 00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:52,400 man made fiber in the world and that's what's incorporated into 473 00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:53,760 every single one of our products. 474 00:21:54,200 --> 00:21:57,480 But they cannot add colour to that fibre because it basically 475 00:21:57,480 --> 00:22:01,280 is an impurity and the fibre loses its strengths by adding 476 00:22:01,280 --> 00:22:03,680 colours. OK, I'm slightly stumped now 477 00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:06,200 because I was thinking like it's just a marketing. 478 00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:08,520 I mean it probably makes your job slightly easier Jackie like 479 00:22:08,880 --> 00:22:10,880 we don't have to muck about with all the different things. 480 00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:13,520 But I mean that that in itself then said to ask you guys 481 00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:16,320 probably quite a tough question. It might be for you Jackie on 482 00:22:16,320 --> 00:22:18,080 web content here. It might be for you Mike and 483 00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:20,320 just how we but how do you present that? 484 00:22:20,360 --> 00:22:22,800 How do you you explain everything you've just said in 485 00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:25,520 like a sentence that where you've got 2 seconds to get that 486 00:22:25,520 --> 00:22:28,120 message across on the mobile web page they scroll through? 487 00:22:28,320 --> 00:22:30,920 How do you guys achieve that? I think that's a really good 488 00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:32,560 point. We don't even really go into too 489 00:22:32,560 --> 00:22:35,840 much on just the color choice between black and right, because 490 00:22:35,840 --> 00:22:38,160 I think it's just comes down to the material choice. 491 00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:40,600 And like Mike said, you know, the innovative materials that 492 00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:44,520 we're using, that's our limitation on color, which is 493 00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:47,000 almost harder from our side. Like, yeah, it might be easier 494 00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:48,680 on the consumer side. You've got 2 choices. 495 00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:50,440 But then if you think about growth and you think about 496 00:22:50,440 --> 00:22:53,360 product innovation and how you're going to add skews into a 497 00:22:53,360 --> 00:22:56,400 line, like it really comes down to making sure that everything 498 00:22:56,400 --> 00:22:58,400 we're adding is based off of a necessity. 499 00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:01,480 And to Mike's point early about like the simplicity on design, 500 00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:04,600 like we really lean into the functions that are there. 501 00:23:04,600 --> 00:23:07,400 Why do we make this choice? What's the design element? 502 00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:11,440 So I don't want to say it's as frivolous as is it blue or is it 503 00:23:11,520 --> 00:23:14,080 green? Like, like it it's, you know, 504 00:23:14,080 --> 00:23:17,080 it's going to be black or white because of the innovation on 505 00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:19,200 technology there. But then it comes into like the 506 00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:21,920 feature sets that are being built out and what's needed and 507 00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:25,440 what's really the consumers and use of the product and why is it 508 00:23:25,440 --> 00:23:27,600 right for them? And yeah. 509 00:23:28,680 --> 00:23:31,160 Yeah, amazing. I would add it goes even kind of 510 00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:33,200 deeper than that too. I mean, like to use the 511 00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:35,400 strongest fibers in the world. These are the lightest, 512 00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:39,040 strongest fibers in the world, you know, 10 times stronger than 513 00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:41,840 steel by weight. And it's basically an extruded 514 00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:44,520 polyethylene fiber that they do some magic to, right? 515 00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:47,920 But if you're talking about lighter weight products to get 516 00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:50,680 up mountains and be in the Backcountry, whether you're 517 00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:53,200 skiing or climbing or hiking or whatever it is that you're 518 00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:57,320 doing, the lighter things go, the tendency, there's a tendency 519 00:23:57,320 --> 00:24:01,920 to be less durable. So that's why we use the fibers 520 00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:04,880 and the fabrics in the Dyneema name that we use is because it 521 00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:08,360 brings that durability while also bringing the lightweight 522 00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:11,000 nature that we need for products that are going up mountains. 523 00:24:11,840 --> 00:24:15,400 Amazing, amazing. And I love how much like I love 524 00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:18,040 how much both of you go into so much detail about we know 525 00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:21,880 exactly what we're doing. In my opinion, and I could 526 00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:24,520 probably prove this with data, there are too many brands in the 527 00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:26,720 world that are just like, we're selling the same product as 528 00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:28,160 everyone else. We're going to find a faster 529 00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:30,960 delivery, slightly lower price. You guys are like, no, no, no, 530 00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:32,840 forget all of that. Like the competition can go and 531 00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:34,920 do whatever the, you know the heck it wants. 532 00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:37,080 We're doing this and this is our product range. 533 00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:40,000 I just want to take a moment out today's show to tell you about 534 00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:42,360 sales tax, which you probably find overwhelming. 535 00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:45,080 Never mind the stress that comes with when you're working with a 536 00:24:45,080 --> 00:24:47,520 provider that's overpriced, unreliable, and leaves you 537 00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:50,040 waiting days to get to a reply. Tax Cloud is here here to tell 538 00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:51,880 you that there's a better way. They're not just at all. 539 00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:54,600 They're a trusted filing partner for growing Shopify brands. 540 00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:57,480 They'll work directly with the states on your behalf to handle 541 00:24:57,480 --> 00:25:00,560 registrations, filings, and ongoing compliance so you can 542 00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:02,200 stay focused on growing your business. 543 00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:05,600 Plus, with a 4.9 star rating on the Shopify App Store, merchants 544 00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:07,720 trust Tax Cloud to get it right. And you can too. 545 00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:11,160 Go ahead and check them out taxcloud.com/winning or mention 546 00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:13,480 us when you sign up. Us being the winning Shopify 547 00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:15,720 podcast. Listeners get a free migration 548 00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:18,160 and boarding service when they decide to make the switch. 549 00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:22,000 That's taxcloud.com forward slash winning back to the show. 550 00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:25,840 What what is I mean, I think you kind of went into some of that, 551 00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:28,480 Jackie and a little bit you mentioned as well, Mike, what is 552 00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:30,960 the product development process when you guys are like there's a 553 00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:33,240 new product coming out? If we work backwards, what was 554 00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:35,600 the first thing that happened then LED into the discovery, 555 00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:37,600 into building the product, testing the product and then 556 00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:39,480 putting it on the shelf? Yeah. 557 00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:42,200 I mean kind of the necessity is like the mother of invention, 558 00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:44,720 right. So I mean, we, we are constantly 559 00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:51,160 looking at opportunities for new products and some products that 560 00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:55,000 we get feedback from consumers that have needs other products. 561 00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:59,240 We've designed things that we see how it could really benefit 562 00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:01,400 you out doing whatever it is that you're doing. 563 00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:04,720 And the consumer had no idea that they even needed that. 564 00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:08,160 And there's plenty of examples of products that we've launched 565 00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:10,880 that have been wildly successful that no one ever knew they 566 00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:13,600 needed, but then they'd use them and they're like, wow, how did I 567 00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:17,240 do without this? But I mean, we, we, we, we're 568 00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:20,200 constantly striving for, I mean, this is purpose driven 569 00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:23,640 equipment, you know, so we have to understand the activities and 570 00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:26,160 the consumers. Once we do that, we can kind of 571 00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:29,560 take the idea again, we'll drop it on a table or into a room and 572 00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:32,840 we start brainstorming and getting creative around it. 573 00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:34,880 Or what could we do here to solve these problems? 574 00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:36,880 And, and how do we keep it super simple? 575 00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:41,960 And then I'm a big fan of going straight to rapid prototyping. 576 00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:45,880 I would rather take a concept and build something rude and 577 00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:48,840 crude that we could go use that weekend and go try it out. 578 00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:52,960 We're going to learn more from the failures of that product in 579 00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:58,600 its very early stages than doing CAD drawings and you know, 580 00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:03,560 computer design, whatever. And you know, it just takes too 581 00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:06,920 long to do that. So we come up with a concept we 582 00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:11,160 will cut and so that as fast as we possibly can get it into the 583 00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:14,440 field and into our hands in in the field as fast as possible. 584 00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:18,120 And then we start this iteration product of continuing fine 585 00:27:18,120 --> 00:27:21,760 tuning until we get the product to where we want it to be. 586 00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:23,760 And I, and I never really know where that is. 587 00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:27,920 What I do know is that the product, the product tells me 588 00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:32,720 when once we've kind of run out of things to tweak and we can't 589 00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:36,080 find a way to make it better, like things start getting quiet 590 00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:39,560 around that product idea, that's when the product is becoming 591 00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:41,760 ready in my opinion. I think to like your earlier 592 00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:43,800 question too about the collaboration and even like 593 00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:46,200 working styles together coming into this. 594 00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:49,200 I think even what Mike's talking about is a really good example 595 00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:53,200 of kind of that collaboration on different styles coming 596 00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:55,800 together, right? Like taking what Mike said and 597 00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:58,680 then how do you turn that into a replicable process that can 598 00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:01,520 actually like kind of bring product out in a cadence and in 599 00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:04,440 a calendar? We created like a timeline in a 600 00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:06,720 product development go to market calendar. 601 00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:10,400 That really took a lot of those principles, but made it into 602 00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:13,120 something that was repeatable and actionable to kind of bring 603 00:28:13,120 --> 00:28:15,600 product to gear. But it really always LED with 604 00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:18,400 what is the right product at the end of the day that's going to 605 00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:21,200 be right for the consumer. And something that I think is 606 00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:24,160 really different and and special about what we do at Hyperlate 607 00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:27,440 Mountain Gear is our entire calendar on bringing product to 608 00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:29,400 market is built around a testing window. 609 00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:32,760 So that's one area that like we'll never skimp on is like, 610 00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:36,320 you know, it has six months, three months, a year worth of 611 00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:40,000 like real rigorous testing with the kind of users who are going 612 00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:44,520 to really push it and understand the elements of where they're 613 00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:48,440 going or the elements of design to, to get that kind of final 614 00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:51,000 product. That's like definitely a hyper 615 00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:52,200 light product. Yeah, yeah. 616 00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:54,920 That's, I mean, that's amazing. And there must be so, so many 617 00:28:54,920 --> 00:28:57,680 frustrations going. This product's amazing and we've 618 00:28:57,680 --> 00:29:00,800 got 11 months still to go testing before we can launch it. 619 00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:03,520 But but also, I mean, even that that testing process that you go 620 00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:06,120 through of taking it up a mountain, see how it performs. 621 00:29:06,520 --> 00:29:09,320 How much of that do you guys then use in social content, web 622 00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:12,120 content to tell the story of you're not just buying something 623 00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:15,080 that, as you say, CAD drawing sent to someone in China, 624 00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:17,680 Vietnam product made. We sold it before it even hit 625 00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:19,920 the shelf and you know, you've sold it off to you guys. 626 00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:22,000 How do you bring that story to life again? 627 00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:25,240 Then in social content, in web content to say you're buying, 628 00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:27,320 this is brand new, but it's already a year old. 629 00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:29,560 It's tried and tested and here's how it performed. 630 00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:31,560 Like do you kind of create scores and stuff like that 631 00:29:31,560 --> 00:29:33,960 within the marketing? And I think a really good 632 00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:36,040 example of that is kind of something that's happening right 633 00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:38,160 now in relaunching our core packs. 634 00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:40,840 So the core packs that might kind of have talked about the 635 00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:44,600 Junction Wind rider in Southwest really built the brand that was 636 00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:49,240 started over the past 15 years. And this is the first time on 637 00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:52,880 July 15th that we're relaunching these products with new 638 00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:54,840 materials that I'm sure Mike will dig into. 639 00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:57,600 But when we started this project, it was really daunting 640 00:29:57,600 --> 00:30:00,160 of like making sure that you're making changes that are right 641 00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:03,440 for the product that improve them, but not too far away from 642 00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:06,240 what consumers originally love about the products. 643 00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:09,000 So when we started thinking about this a year ago, the 644 00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:11,920 people who we tested with are the ones who kind of been core 645 00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:14,760 users of these products for the past however many years. 646 00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:17,880 And so we gave it to them first. And we're like, OK, like take 647 00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:19,160 it. Really let us know what you 648 00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:20,840 think. Is this too far off what you 649 00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:23,080 love about the core packs? Like what are improvements that 650 00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:25,280 do need to be made and document the whole story? 651 00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:28,440 So we have photos of the different iterations that 652 00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:31,360 they've used from a year ago. And we kind of continued the 653 00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:34,760 entire like product evolution story with some of the same 654 00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:36,360 users. So we can go back and like, oh, 655 00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:38,240 that was version one. That was version 2. 656 00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:41,200 And we have their feedback on like, OK, when you tweaked this, 657 00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:43,880 we really liked it compared to whatever the version was or the 658 00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:45,840 original pack. And you know, in a lot of the 659 00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:50,120 launch assets we use, it's, it's photos from them testing, it's 660 00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:52,800 blog posts with their quotes and their journey. 661 00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:54,960 And then they talking about it from their perspective. 662 00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:58,160 And they're really documenting the process for us. 663 00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:01,080 And they're also the users and the testers and a lot of kind of 664 00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:04,760 our, I wanna call them like social, but social proof users 665 00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:07,240 at that point too. Amazing. 666 00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:09,840 I'm going to explain something in my world that relates, I 667 00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:12,440 think perfectly to what you've just described that I think 668 00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:14,560 business miss a lot when they're looking at, certainly when 669 00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:15,800 they're looking at content for web. 670 00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:19,480 And The thing is, I sat down a few of our clients and said, why 671 00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:21,120 do you buy agencies? And one of the things that came 672 00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:23,640 back is it's the people and who's referred me. 673 00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:25,600 And then the obvious thing, which kind of Trump's both of 674 00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:27,800 those is the result. But actually I could even get a 675 00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:30,040 good result if I if I didn't like the people, I probably 676 00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:32,800 still wouldn't work with them or if no one had said or no one had 677 00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:34,960 endorsed them. So I took that referral thing to 678 00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:39,200 think, how do you refer some how do you feel referred without Bob 679 00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:42,160 telling Dave to phone Nick? But how do you make that happen 680 00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:44,920 or make them feel like that? And the answer is case studies, 681 00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:47,680 which in your world is customer reviews and customer review 682 00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:50,520 content and customer reviews, which is what you've you've 683 00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:53,040 created in a kind of nice little lab environment with those 684 00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:55,080 specific customers about the products and the development. 685 00:31:55,280 --> 00:31:57,640 Use that as the story, the amount of brands. 686 00:31:57,640 --> 00:32:00,280 And we and we see this in AB tests that have reviews from 687 00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:02,360 customers. They have emails from customers, 688 00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:04,680 they have blogs happening, they have Reddit threads going on 689 00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:07,560 their Facebook groups, they have Instagram comments, and they're 690 00:32:07,560 --> 00:32:10,440 all happening in silo. And not one of them, not one 691 00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:12,920 person internally is grabbing all of that and saying, hey, 692 00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:14,720 you've landed on our website because you like the look of 693 00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:16,040 this product. You're a potential customer. 694 00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:18,520 People love this. Look at the journey we've been 695 00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:20,400 on this community and all this sort of stuff. 696 00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:23,280 And we did an AB test. I've pretty much 1000 times in 697 00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:25,400 the podcast already, so I won't go into the detail, but we did 698 00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:28,000 an AB test and basically just went rather than saying we're 699 00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:30,560 rated excellent and Trustpilot, here are some of the actual 700 00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:32,920 reviews from customers, presented them a bit more and 701 00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:35,360 revenue pretty much doubled across the whole site. 702 00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:37,800 And we've had that happen more than five Times Now. 703 00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:39,800 And we're talking just in the last sort of nine months. 704 00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:43,560 It's that powerful. So I love, I love what you've 705 00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:45,840 just described of just by doing that exercise. 706 00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:47,880 Yeah, there's some really cool Instagram posts and some tick 707 00:32:47,880 --> 00:32:49,720 tock posts. But actually the blog posts are 708 00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:51,720 saying, here's how we've developed this product. 709 00:32:52,240 --> 00:32:53,920 Again, it comes with the challenge of there's only so 710 00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:56,640 many pixels on the screen. But that's where I think, like 711 00:32:56,760 --> 00:32:58,760 you were saying earlier, I think you mentioned it, Mike, of like, 712 00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:00,480 we've got all this information. How do we drill it down and keep 713 00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:02,600 it simple? And it's just like 5 people took 714 00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:04,880 this backpack out. It broke for four of them. 715 00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:07,040 So we've changed the material as an example of something that 716 00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:10,040 might have come out. But Mike, tell us about what you 717 00:33:10,040 --> 00:33:11,680 just mentioned, Jackie. Tell us, Mike, about the new 718 00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:14,080 material as well. Like how has that come about? 719 00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:17,200 Was that A, we found an issue here and we need to find a new 720 00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:18,960 material? Did it come out by accident? 721 00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:20,240 Tell us about that. I'd love to. 722 00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:23,080 I'd love to just expand one second on the top here just on 723 00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:25,280 too. Obviously we market and social 724 00:33:25,280 --> 00:33:27,560 proof, it's usually important, but you know, it's really 725 00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:30,680 interesting. You know, there's a lot of 726 00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:32,160 people that still don't know who we are. 727 00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:37,600 And we see usually a significant increase in orders on Mondays. 728 00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:42,480 And that's, I think because people are going out on the 729 00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:44,280 weekends and doing these activities. 730 00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:48,320 And the people with the Hyperlite products you're seeing 731 00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:51,960 are exerting less energy. They're having more fun. 732 00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:54,760 They they can go farther, they can go faster. 733 00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:59,760 And when other people see that and, and they see this iconic 734 00:33:59,760 --> 00:34:03,480 white backpack out there, people are, they're stopping and 735 00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:06,920 asking, Hey, what is that? Like, why are you smiling when 736 00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:09,120 you're busting your butt going up a trail? 737 00:34:09,120 --> 00:34:13,000 Like, like, and, and we, we hear that a lot, right? 738 00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:15,239 And then, then they kind of like, oh, it's a hyper like 739 00:34:15,239 --> 00:34:16,880 mountain gear. So then they come into the 740 00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:18,920 website and they start seeing all the stuff. 741 00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:22,880 That's awesome. It's a really cool process. 742 00:34:22,880 --> 00:34:26,280 You know, the people are like real world, you know, seeing the 743 00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:28,520 results of the products out there from other people. 744 00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:31,960 Which I think I'll add something as well before we come back to 745 00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:35,120 my my question, just to say that I mean that is, that is real 746 00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:37,880 world evidence that if you invest in your product and your 747 00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:40,639 product development Monday morning, we're just making more 748 00:34:40,639 --> 00:34:42,960 money. It's not a we, we spent this on 749 00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:44,560 Meta ads and we had a return of it. 750 00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:46,679 It's like Monday morning, we just made more money because 751 00:34:46,679 --> 00:34:47,880 people aren't using our products. 752 00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:50,000 We've got the branding, right? We've got the product, right. 753 00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:52,480 Yeah, we're still evolving it. We're still evolving it to make 754 00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:54,080 it better. And I think that is absolutely, 755 00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:55,960 you know, people always say like, oh, the product is king. 756 00:34:55,960 --> 00:34:57,360 You've got to have the best product, whatever. 757 00:34:57,800 --> 00:34:59,680 A lot of people then go, oh, I've got to spend more on the 758 00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:01,960 product and try and work away. Not that at all. 759 00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:04,000 It's I think it's absolutely evidence that like it's a 760 00:35:04,040 --> 00:35:06,240 product that fixes a problem that lots of people have. 761 00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:08,240 And if anyone else sees it, they want it. 762 00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:09,840 And I think you've absolutely nailed it in that. 763 00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:11,000 So thank you. It's amazing. 764 00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:13,360 Not even in the Backcountry, but you walk through an airport with 765 00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:15,960 our products and, and people will run after you and be like, 766 00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:17,720 I have one of those or what is that? 767 00:35:17,720 --> 00:35:20,440 That's amazing. It's it's really interesting. 768 00:35:21,360 --> 00:35:24,080 We had a, sorry, just just on that, just a funny Side Story 769 00:35:24,080 --> 00:35:27,440 quickly is we had a company that had so many pictures of their 770 00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:29,720 T-shirts and hoodies and trousers and shoes and stuff 771 00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:33,240 relating to surfers. And we did a customer feedback 772 00:35:33,240 --> 00:35:35,520 survey. How many of you do surf? 773 00:35:35,520 --> 00:35:39,480 And it was like 10% of the 10%. Like, you know, how many of you 774 00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:41,480 guys have taken our products when you've gone surfing? 775 00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:43,600 It was like 2% of the total customer base. 776 00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:46,080 It was like, but when we put surfboards, people buy stuff. 777 00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:48,240 It's like brilliant. That's, that's fine. 778 00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:50,360 But it shows there's lots of use cases for every product. 779 00:35:50,560 --> 00:35:51,600 Right, right. Sorry. 780 00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:54,120 So back to the question then. So the new fabrics, how did you 781 00:35:54,160 --> 00:35:56,320 evolve the new fabrics? Yeah. 782 00:35:56,320 --> 00:36:00,120 So you know, we depending on whether whether it's a backpack 783 00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:03,320 or a tent, those are separate fabrics, but it's also made by 784 00:36:04,120 --> 00:36:06,800 Dyneema. That is the number one fiber, 785 00:36:06,800 --> 00:36:08,440 again, the strongest fiber in the world. 786 00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:11,520 It's an extruded polyethylene. It's, it's basically called 787 00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:16,080 Ultra ultra high molecular weight, ultra high molecular 788 00:36:16,080 --> 00:36:18,120 weight polyethylene fiber, right? 789 00:36:18,240 --> 00:36:19,480 So. You said about keeping things 790 00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:21,080 simple. You need an acronym. 791 00:36:23,320 --> 00:36:24,920 Yeah, it's an extruded polyethylene fiber. 792 00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:27,600 They found a way to align the molecules in these long form 793 00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:29,320 change, which makes it unbelievably strong. 794 00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:32,840 It's what you see in all dock lines for major ships now, 795 00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:37,880 military ships. You know, it's, it's, it's 796 00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:40,680 replacing steel cables in a lot of different industries. 797 00:36:41,240 --> 00:36:44,960 All bulletproof vests have gone to these kinds of fibers now 798 00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:48,440 instead of Kevlar. But you know, our fabrics, you 799 00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:53,680 know, we, we started with a tent fabric 15 years ago and then we 800 00:36:53,680 --> 00:36:55,480 were like, OK, we need something a little more durable for 801 00:36:55,480 --> 00:36:57,960 backpacks. So we worked with Dyneema and 802 00:36:57,960 --> 00:37:03,960 we, you know, basically put a face fabric on top of these non 803 00:37:03,960 --> 00:37:08,520 woven composite laminates that they were creating and that face 804 00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:10,800 fabric was giving more durability to the product. 805 00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:14,200 And we ran with that for the last 15 years. 806 00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:17,280 But the technology of the dynamic fiber was really 807 00:37:17,280 --> 00:37:20,040 embedded inside layers of this fabric. 808 00:37:20,720 --> 00:37:23,720 So over the last several year, actually the conversations 809 00:37:23,720 --> 00:37:27,040 probably started about four years ago, but it's been 2 years 810 00:37:27,040 --> 00:37:30,680 of development and testing that we not only took the fibers that 811 00:37:30,680 --> 00:37:34,600 were embedded inside that material, but we had them, that 812 00:37:34,600 --> 00:37:40,000 fiber woven into a cloth and which is extremely difficult to 813 00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:42,800 do in its own right because of how strong these fibers are. 814 00:37:43,240 --> 00:37:46,320 So if something got caught up in the machinery or in the weaving 815 00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:48,840 process, chances are it's going to break the machines. 816 00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:54,360 So they needed very specialized equipment and and expertise to 817 00:37:54,400 --> 00:37:57,640 actually even weave this stuff into a woven cloth. 818 00:37:58,200 --> 00:38:01,920 So we then took that woven cloth and laminated it back to these 819 00:38:02,080 --> 00:38:07,120 non woven composite laminates and made this huge sandwich that 820 00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:10,640 brings the Dyneema from the inside to the outside and vice 821 00:38:10,640 --> 00:38:14,640 versa. And it is just an unbelievably 822 00:38:14,840 --> 00:38:20,640 lightweight, very durable, very brazen, resistant and 100% 823 00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:25,760 waterproof fabric. 100% I see. I, I, I was a marketing person. 824 00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:27,240 I don't know if you get the sword jacket, but as soon as you 825 00:38:27,240 --> 00:38:30,400 mentioned Mike about statistics, it is the strongest fabric in 826 00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:33,360 the world is 100% waterproof. Suddenly my world lights up 827 00:38:33,360 --> 00:38:35,760 because I'm like there's boxes on Google Shopping I can fill 828 00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:38,400 out now with these bits of information where most people 829 00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:41,120 are saying like it's a cool colour, it's a good price. 830 00:38:41,120 --> 00:38:44,000 It's actually we're saying we're really hitting people's things 831 00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:46,240 like it's the most lightweight backpack in the world. 832 00:38:46,240 --> 00:38:49,120 It's the strongest backpack in the world, It's 100% waterproof. 833 00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:51,880 I won't say the brands because they're not anywhere near as 834 00:38:51,880 --> 00:38:54,240 cool as you guys, but I did buy waterproof backpack a while ago. 835 00:38:54,560 --> 00:38:56,160 I filled it when I first got it for Christmas. 836 00:38:56,160 --> 00:38:59,800 I filled it with newspaper and I sprayed it with my get washer in 837 00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:01,600 my front garden. My neighbors thought I'd gone 838 00:39:01,600 --> 00:39:03,960 mad and I left it for a couple of minutes just for the 839 00:39:03,960 --> 00:39:06,960 drippings, opened it and the newspaper was still dry. 840 00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:09,320 And it was one of those like, I've never worried about putting 841 00:39:09,320 --> 00:39:12,800 my laptop, my MacBook in a waterproof bag before, but now 842 00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:14,240 I've got one. We're testing that. 843 00:39:14,680 --> 00:39:17,840 And I love the detail you've gone to though, and we won't 844 00:39:17,840 --> 00:39:19,640 cover this again because I know we said it several times, but 845 00:39:19,800 --> 00:39:22,240 what an incredible brief. Then you get Jackie and the 846 00:39:22,240 --> 00:39:24,800 marketing team to go. I've got so much to work with 847 00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:26,680 here. Like I can basically drilling 848 00:39:26,680 --> 00:39:29,040 down to what, as I said, the most important points out of 849 00:39:29,040 --> 00:39:32,200 these these things. And but I want to finish on this 850 00:39:32,200 --> 00:39:34,080 last question. I mentioned this at the start. 851 00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:37,240 I think, I think it's a really good question to ask is if you 852 00:39:37,240 --> 00:39:40,760 could go back, Mike and start Hyperlite again, Hyperlite 853 00:39:40,760 --> 00:39:43,240 Mountain gear is going to reform itself. 854 00:39:43,440 --> 00:39:45,200 It's we've re round the clock 15 years. 855 00:39:45,640 --> 00:39:48,080 What would you guys change? What would you do differently? 856 00:39:48,080 --> 00:39:50,080 And I'd love to ask you the question after as well, Jackie, 857 00:39:50,080 --> 00:39:52,320 from your point of someone who's come in and grabbed all these 858 00:39:52,320 --> 00:39:53,920 tools and made made things happen with them. 859 00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:55,520 But yeah, over to you first, Mike. 860 00:39:56,240 --> 00:39:58,600 Yeah, I mean, I've been kind of thinking about this one for a 861 00:39:58,600 --> 00:40:00,560 while. And, and it's a question that's 862 00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:04,920 been I've been asked before and you know, there's definitely a 863 00:40:04,920 --> 00:40:07,600 couple learnings that I've made over the years and you know, 864 00:40:07,920 --> 00:40:13,240 especially around hiring, hiring the right people from the get go 865 00:40:13,240 --> 00:40:15,800 or learning to let go of people when you need to in a timely 866 00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:18,560 fashion. But you know, when I, when I 867 00:40:18,560 --> 00:40:21,840 really think back on this, you know to, to build a brand that 868 00:40:21,840 --> 00:40:24,200 has that level of authenticity that we have. 869 00:40:24,840 --> 00:40:27,200 Like, I don't know if we could have done it any other way than 870 00:40:27,200 --> 00:40:30,640 what we're currently doing. I don't know if I would change a 871 00:40:30,640 --> 00:40:33,800 whole lot outside of some of the, you know, operational 872 00:40:33,800 --> 00:40:38,600 things with, with inside the business, you know, But as far 873 00:40:38,600 --> 00:40:42,600 as like how we design products, how we seed the products to 874 00:40:42,600 --> 00:40:46,040 people, how we build, you know, how we get them into the right 875 00:40:46,040 --> 00:40:47,400 hands. Whether you're on the top of 876 00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:51,000 Mount Everest or in the bottom of the Grand Canyon, you know, 877 00:40:52,240 --> 00:40:55,000 the products have to go through their paces with these users 878 00:40:55,000 --> 00:40:59,240 and, and, and they have to be on these adventures and, and on 879 00:40:59,240 --> 00:41:01,720 more than one adventure. So you can start to learn that 880 00:41:01,720 --> 00:41:05,040 durability and then how, how, how much better this is than a 881 00:41:05,040 --> 00:41:08,200 competitor. So, you know, I don't, I don't, 882 00:41:08,320 --> 00:41:11,080 there's not a whole lot. I feel like I would change 883 00:41:11,080 --> 00:41:15,360 around how we built Hyperlite. You know, there's things myself 884 00:41:15,360 --> 00:41:18,760 as an executive that I've there that I would change or learnings 885 00:41:18,760 --> 00:41:21,040 that I've had over the years and, and how I could do 886 00:41:21,040 --> 00:41:22,640 something better, maybe speed something up. 887 00:41:22,640 --> 00:41:26,000 But when it comes to Hyperlite, like, I don't see a better way 888 00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:28,000 forward than what we've kind of done. 889 00:41:28,960 --> 00:41:30,760 That's amazing. I'm just going to echo something 890 00:41:30,760 --> 00:41:32,920 you said about the hiring bit as well. 891 00:41:32,920 --> 00:41:36,080 I, I get asked a lot by store owners like when should I hire 892 00:41:36,080 --> 00:41:40,040 my first person or I get people who've got 2050 a hundred staff 893 00:41:40,040 --> 00:41:42,840 say your team's amazing like, and it's kind of like they are 894 00:41:42,840 --> 00:41:46,080 amazing, but it's been hard work to get them there like and to 895 00:41:46,080 --> 00:41:48,520 with both personnel training my leadership. 896 00:41:48,520 --> 00:41:50,520 People buy into the small business owner. 897 00:41:50,520 --> 00:41:53,280 I I mean I'm, I'm sold. I'm sold into you Mike, if 898 00:41:53,280 --> 00:41:55,200 you're hiring I'm I'm definitely interested. 899 00:41:55,400 --> 00:41:57,800 Just the way, the way you talk about the product, the passion 900 00:41:57,800 --> 00:42:00,880 behind it, the fact that we know exactly what we stand for, where 901 00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:02,360 we're going. People buy into that. 902 00:42:02,800 --> 00:42:05,480 I years ago I used to kind of moan and be like this staff 903 00:42:05,480 --> 00:42:06,600 member. They're just so wrong. 904 00:42:06,600 --> 00:42:08,760 I can't replace them. And actually what I've learned 905 00:42:08,760 --> 00:42:12,360 over the years is everyone has their place in any economy, any 906 00:42:12,360 --> 00:42:14,240 set of jobs. And actually just because 907 00:42:14,240 --> 00:42:19,280 someone, someone I find kind of, I would say boring, not much 908 00:42:19,280 --> 00:42:22,080 personality actually. You get 10 of those in the right 909 00:42:22,080 --> 00:42:24,880 job exactly where you don't want people kind of, you know, 910 00:42:25,160 --> 00:42:28,440 drinking Diet Coke, wearing trainers and having banter all 911 00:42:28,440 --> 00:42:30,800 the time, which I like a level of that in the office. 912 00:42:31,160 --> 00:42:33,840 Actually, some environments I'd think about and go, I wouldn't 913 00:42:33,840 --> 00:42:36,440 want to like, you know, go into a courtroom and find that I 914 00:42:36,440 --> 00:42:38,080 wouldn't want to go to my local accountant. 915 00:42:38,080 --> 00:42:39,600 And they're all just having a bit of bands. 916 00:42:39,600 --> 00:42:41,840 Like you're accountants. I'm expecting you to be on top 917 00:42:41,840 --> 00:42:44,560 of the numbers, you know, and like focus on a very kind of 918 00:42:44,560 --> 00:42:45,760 focus. I want you to be smart. 919 00:42:45,760 --> 00:42:47,640 I want you to be in suits. Depends on what sort of 920 00:42:47,640 --> 00:42:50,160 accountancy you want. But I think everyone's got their 921 00:42:50,160 --> 00:42:51,560 environment. And I've certainly, I can 922 00:42:51,560 --> 00:42:54,040 certainly echo I've made, I don't want to say mistakes 923 00:42:54,040 --> 00:42:55,640 because I used to call them that and I don't think they are 924 00:42:55,640 --> 00:42:57,400 mistakes. They're absolutely learnings. 925 00:42:57,640 --> 00:42:59,840 And I wouldn't know what I know now unless I'd had some 926 00:42:59,840 --> 00:43:02,160 situations we've had to deal with over the years, which I 927 00:43:02,160 --> 00:43:03,920 definitely shouldn't announce on the podcast in front of 928 00:43:03,920 --> 00:43:06,680 thousands of people. And but it's a journey, isn't 929 00:43:06,680 --> 00:43:07,680 it? It is, it is. 930 00:43:07,880 --> 00:43:10,640 And I'd love to give you 1 quick example before Jackie has a 931 00:43:10,640 --> 00:43:11,920 moment. Yeah, please, with question. 932 00:43:12,000 --> 00:43:16,800 You know, and this is something that we learned or I learned 933 00:43:16,800 --> 00:43:18,840 over the years of, you know, running Hyperlite. 934 00:43:18,840 --> 00:43:23,880 And but we, you know, we, we've tried hiring all these big 935 00:43:24,320 --> 00:43:28,920 outdoor industry marketing executives and CMOS and, you 936 00:43:28,920 --> 00:43:32,520 know, and I, and to be honest, none of them really worked. 937 00:43:32,680 --> 00:43:37,640 We, we hired Jackie originally as a director of operational 938 00:43:37,640 --> 00:43:41,000 integration. I wanted to tear down the walls 939 00:43:41,000 --> 00:43:43,920 between the departments and have more of this horizontal 940 00:43:44,360 --> 00:43:47,720 organization where everyone's talking no matter what 941 00:43:47,720 --> 00:43:51,880 department you're in. And we then promoted Jackie. 942 00:43:51,880 --> 00:43:54,560 She did such a great job. We promoted her to the the 943 00:43:55,080 --> 00:43:56,360 director of the marketing department. 944 00:43:56,720 --> 00:44:00,560 And I think that was interesting because, you know, we trusted 945 00:44:00,560 --> 00:44:05,400 someone who didn't have this playbook of how you do it. 946 00:44:05,520 --> 00:44:09,000 You know, we and, and I found we're trying to differentiate 947 00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:11,000 ourselves from the rest of the outdoor industry. 948 00:44:11,400 --> 00:44:14,240 So by bringing in the season, the outdoor industry marketing 949 00:44:14,240 --> 00:44:17,640 executives, all we were doing was just looking like everybody 950 00:44:17,640 --> 00:44:19,920 else. So I mean, Jackie's done a great 951 00:44:19,920 --> 00:44:22,320 job for us. She's really grown into the role 952 00:44:22,320 --> 00:44:26,000 and it's, it's an amazing, it's, it's so fun to work together. 953 00:44:26,000 --> 00:44:28,080 And I think she's done a great job. 954 00:44:28,680 --> 00:44:30,360 And we took it. We took a chance there, but it 955 00:44:30,360 --> 00:44:33,360 paid off. Yeah, and most of my team are 956 00:44:33,360 --> 00:44:34,880 like that as well. We hired them with very little 957 00:44:34,880 --> 00:44:36,040 experience in what they're doing today. 958 00:44:36,040 --> 00:44:38,040 But it was like, I want problem solvers. 959 00:44:38,040 --> 00:44:40,080 I want positive thinkers. I want people that are 960 00:44:40,080 --> 00:44:42,560 proactive, people that are polite, people that offer to 961 00:44:42,560 --> 00:44:44,080 take their cup back to the kitchen when they come to a 962 00:44:44,080 --> 00:44:45,720 meeting. Like that's someone I want to 963 00:44:45,720 --> 00:44:46,680 share a working environment with. 964 00:44:46,680 --> 00:44:47,920 You know, you kind of start stick of these. 965 00:44:47,920 --> 00:44:50,600 But what a segue, Jackie, I mean, over to you. 966 00:44:50,600 --> 00:44:54,840 What you know, what would you change if you could go back to 967 00:44:54,840 --> 00:44:56,400 when you first started? You know, are there any 968 00:44:56,400 --> 00:44:57,560 learnings? Would you just repeat the 969 00:44:57,560 --> 00:44:59,560 journey again? And, similar to Mike, have been 970 00:44:59,560 --> 00:45:02,320 any kind of key moments? I think repeat the journey 971 00:45:02,320 --> 00:45:04,000 again. I don't think there's any real. 972 00:45:04,000 --> 00:45:06,360 I think everything had to happen the way it happened in order to 973 00:45:06,360 --> 00:45:09,000 get to where we are now, which seems probably like a lame 974 00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:14,520 response, but I feel like, I feel like to answer your yeah, 975 00:45:14,520 --> 00:45:17,640 you can't. No, but I feel like to answer 976 00:45:17,640 --> 00:45:21,360 that question, I think I think in a few years it's going to be 977 00:45:21,360 --> 00:45:23,720 where we are right now. Because just even how fast 978 00:45:23,720 --> 00:45:27,680 looking at Shopify and what's happening on kind of like the AI 979 00:45:27,680 --> 00:45:30,240 front and different things that are happening within our 980 00:45:30,240 --> 00:45:32,960 specific Shopify platform. There's a lot of things that 981 00:45:32,960 --> 00:45:35,240 we're testing and we're trying and there's new technologies 982 00:45:35,240 --> 00:45:38,360 coming out every day. And it's changing so fast that I 983 00:45:38,360 --> 00:45:41,360 think in a few years we'll look back to this time and kind of be 984 00:45:41,360 --> 00:45:44,080 like, oh, I wish I knew that that was the right tech stack 985 00:45:44,080 --> 00:45:46,240 that we needed to kind of get to this growth. 986 00:45:46,240 --> 00:45:49,760 And I wish this personalization or this A&B testing or you know, 987 00:45:49,760 --> 00:45:51,640 I mean, like I think that there's just so much happening 988 00:45:51,640 --> 00:45:54,000 right now that we're trying and we're testing and we're dabbling 989 00:45:54,000 --> 00:45:57,440 that once we figure out the right way, it's just going to 990 00:45:57,440 --> 00:46:00,720 kind of really propel growth. But it's going to, it's coming 991 00:46:00,720 --> 00:46:03,800 with some trial and some errors and some growing and, you know, 992 00:46:03,880 --> 00:46:06,080 everything's just kind of changing really quickly right 993 00:46:06,080 --> 00:46:08,360 now, so. Yeah, yeah, which is it's a 994 00:46:08,360 --> 00:46:10,720 really interesting point and something we, and this is for 995 00:46:10,720 --> 00:46:13,600 all of you guys listening at home as well as as Mike and 996 00:46:13,600 --> 00:46:16,080 Jackie here. But something we're exploring at 997 00:46:16,080 --> 00:46:18,480 the moment is something that's come out of looking at where 998 00:46:18,480 --> 00:46:20,680 we're getting the most success as an agency for brands. 999 00:46:21,000 --> 00:46:22,960 And one of the things we found is people don't use the 1000 00:46:22,960 --> 00:46:25,080 technology they've got anywhere near well enough. 1001 00:46:25,360 --> 00:46:27,720 It's almost like you've got the most incredible armoury of 1002 00:46:27,720 --> 00:46:30,760 swords and Shields and bows and arrows and everything else, and 1003 00:46:30,760 --> 00:46:33,720 people like you've got swords, people firing arrows in the 1004 00:46:33,720 --> 00:46:36,640 wrong direction. And so it's like, Oh yeah, SEO. 1005 00:46:36,640 --> 00:46:38,440 Yeah, we've got SCM Rush that does all our SEO. 1006 00:46:38,440 --> 00:46:40,840 It's like, no, it doesn't. It's just it tells you what's 1007 00:46:40,840 --> 00:46:42,320 wrong. You still got to get up and do 1008 00:46:42,360 --> 00:46:43,720 so. And it tells you there's a box 1009 00:46:43,720 --> 00:46:45,520 missing, isn't it? What to put in it doesn't say 1010 00:46:45,520 --> 00:46:48,080 how to do marketing. That's what SCO really is, is 1011 00:46:48,080 --> 00:46:50,760 marketing. And and I think it's, it's 1012 00:46:50,840 --> 00:46:53,040 really interesting, as you say, about what's the best tech 1013 00:46:53,040 --> 00:46:55,400 stack. Shopify has reached that point, 1014 00:46:55,400 --> 00:46:57,920 I think at the moment where it's on the, the sharpest part of its 1015 00:46:57,920 --> 00:47:00,040 bell curve of growth. And AI is part of that. 1016 00:47:00,040 --> 00:47:02,960 And we, we've got AI don't know if we've even released it yet, 1017 00:47:02,960 --> 00:47:04,560 but we've got a trailer for winning Shopify. 1018 00:47:04,560 --> 00:47:07,080 That's basically there's all this noise of like, download 1019 00:47:07,080 --> 00:47:08,360 this app. It's the best app ever. 1020 00:47:08,360 --> 00:47:10,080 It's going to help. The guy writes it down and then 1021 00:47:10,080 --> 00:47:11,680 it kind of says he watches the next video. 1022 00:47:11,680 --> 00:47:14,200 It's like, never use this app. It's the worst app ever. 1023 00:47:14,200 --> 00:47:16,240 It will share your info you'll get ohh. 1024 00:47:16,280 --> 00:47:18,880 Then he like crosses it out and it's we're trying to just help 1025 00:47:18,880 --> 00:47:20,840 people with like here's the information go and find the tech 1026 00:47:20,840 --> 00:47:23,360 that's going to work or the process or the the way of doing 1027 00:47:23,360 --> 00:47:24,800 things. But I completely echo what both 1028 00:47:24,800 --> 00:47:26,200 of you guys have said about the growth. 1029 00:47:26,240 --> 00:47:29,160 I think they're I, I always look back on the journey and I used 1030 00:47:29,160 --> 00:47:30,760 to look back being like, I still haven't nailed it. 1031 00:47:30,760 --> 00:47:33,080 I'm still not a billionaire. And I actually look back now and 1032 00:47:33,080 --> 00:47:36,040 be like, wow, what a great ton of lessons we've made and just 1033 00:47:36,040 --> 00:47:37,760 change. I say just changing. 1034 00:47:37,760 --> 00:47:39,440 It takes a lot of things to change that mindset. 1035 00:47:39,440 --> 00:47:41,680 And part of it is the people you have around you and part of it 1036 00:47:41,680 --> 00:47:44,160 is the decisions you make. But I mean, look, guys, I've 1037 00:47:44,160 --> 00:47:46,960 written a page and a half of notes that's like at least three 1038 00:47:46,960 --> 00:47:48,320 times what I normally write in one of these. 1039 00:47:48,320 --> 00:47:50,680 So first to you, Mike, I want to say a massive thank you for 1040 00:47:50,680 --> 00:47:52,000 joining us. Appreciate your time, appreciate 1041 00:47:52,000 --> 00:47:54,320 your honesty sharing so much in the journey as well. 1042 00:47:54,320 --> 00:47:55,560 So thank you so much for joining us. 1043 00:47:56,080 --> 00:47:57,680 Thank you very much. It's great to be here and it was 1044 00:47:57,680 --> 00:47:59,520 a pleasure to share this time with you. 1045 00:48:00,640 --> 00:48:02,560 Amazing. And to you as well, Jackie, like 1046 00:48:02,600 --> 00:48:04,520 Mike loves you to bits and I can see why. 1047 00:48:04,520 --> 00:48:07,080 So thank you so much, including some amazing things for the 1048 00:48:07,080 --> 00:48:08,360 brand. But yeah, thank you as well for 1049 00:48:08,360 --> 00:48:10,080 your time and for joining us. Yeah, thanks. 1050 00:48:10,080 --> 00:48:12,760 It's a great brand and a great team to be a part of, so it's 1051 00:48:12,760 --> 00:48:14,760 cool. Awesome, awesome. 1052 00:48:14,760 --> 00:48:16,840 And I think some of us at home would be sitting there thinking, 1053 00:48:17,080 --> 00:48:18,440 I wish I could say that about my job. 1054 00:48:18,440 --> 00:48:21,400 Well, there's a big place. So maybe have a quick look or 1055 00:48:21,400 --> 00:48:23,760 change what you're doing and be a massive thanks to these guys. 1056 00:48:23,760 --> 00:48:25,920 Thanks a lot to your your colleague Matt, who's put this 1057 00:48:25,920 --> 00:48:28,160 together and it's part of our community here as well. 1058 00:48:28,440 --> 00:48:30,600 And yeah, if you want to join us next week, guys, we post every 1059 00:48:30,600 --> 00:48:32,720 single week. We also they might not be out. 1060 00:48:32,720 --> 00:48:34,960 I was I'm going to mention these, but Tuesdays we're going 1061 00:48:35,000 --> 00:48:37,320 to start launching little solo episodes from me with some 1062 00:48:37,320 --> 00:48:39,880 really cool little bits and pieces and very short snippets 1063 00:48:39,880 --> 00:48:41,520 compared to these long form episodes. 1064 00:48:41,520 --> 00:48:43,400 But if you haven't already, hit subscribe button. 1065 00:48:43,400 --> 00:48:45,400 Hope you can join us, our newsletter as well so we can 1066 00:48:45,400 --> 00:48:47,240 send you some really cool things and we'll see you again next 1067 00:48:47,240 --> 00:48:48,120 week. Thanks for joining. 1068 00:48:48,640 --> 00:48:50,840 Hey guys, I just want to take a moment aside from today's 1069 00:48:50,840 --> 00:48:53,200 episode to introduce one of our amazing sponsors, Kavella. 1070 00:48:53,200 --> 00:48:55,720 They are the all in one platform that helps you design, sample 1071 00:48:55,720 --> 00:48:58,520 and launch your product lines. Kavella are helping Shopify 1072 00:48:58,520 --> 00:49:03,040 brands save up to 40% on stock costs thanks to their smart, 1073 00:49:03,040 --> 00:49:05,960 streamlined supply chain. That means more profit for you, 1074 00:49:06,200 --> 00:49:10,360 less costs, and loads of time saved in trying to get stock on 1075 00:49:10,360 --> 00:49:13,320 your shelves right now. You can fast track their waiting 1076 00:49:13,320 --> 00:49:17,560 list and get 50% of your first sample order just by using the 1077 00:49:17,560 --> 00:49:20,760 code winning at checkout. This exclusive offer for winning 1078 00:49:20,760 --> 00:49:23,360 with Shopify podcast listeners. Just go to the link in our 1079 00:49:23,360 --> 00:49:25,920 description or in our bio to unlock the savings and skip the 1080 00:49:25,920 --> 00:49:27,640 queue. You build your brand, save on 1081 00:49:27,640 --> 00:49:30,240 stock, and step into the future of e-commerce with Covella. 1082 00:49:30,400 --> 00:49:31,840 That code again winning.