1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:02,840 Do you ever find that in your warehouse you have dead stock, 2 00:00:02,960 --> 00:00:04,840 you can't sell it, no one wants to buy it, and you can't get a 3 00:00:04,840 --> 00:00:07,640 refund on it. Or alternatively, you're missing 4 00:00:07,640 --> 00:00:09,840 inventory in your warehouse that you need, you got sales coming 5 00:00:09,840 --> 00:00:13,000 in and you're low on stock and you haven't ordered more stock 6 00:00:13,040 --> 00:00:14,960 in time. All these things hit profit. 7 00:00:15,000 --> 00:00:16,680 And I've been there. I've run my own Shopify store 8 00:00:16,680 --> 00:00:19,280 and had exactly that problem. 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Enjoy. 19 00:00:49,560 --> 00:00:51,560 Hello and welcome to another episode, the Winning with 20 00:00:51,560 --> 00:00:53,400 Shopify podcast. For anyone that's not seen 21 00:00:53,400 --> 00:00:56,120 before, my name is Nick and I believe this is the best Shopify 22 00:00:56,120 --> 00:00:59,160 podcast in the entire world. The reason I say that is our 23 00:00:59,160 --> 00:01:01,360 views are going up like crazy. Our subscribers are going up 24 00:01:01,360 --> 00:01:03,640 like crazy and the feedback we're getting from you guys is 25 00:01:03,640 --> 00:01:06,800 absolutely incredible. Not to mention our guests have 26 00:01:06,800 --> 00:01:10,000 been absolutely phenomenal in the information they share, the 27 00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:12,720 time they give up to come and record with us, and also 28 00:01:12,880 --> 00:01:14,960 answering some of your questions and follow-ups afterwards as 29 00:01:14,960 --> 00:01:16,720 well. If you're a brand that wants to 30 00:01:16,720 --> 00:01:20,040 grow and you're facing challenges like all brands do, 31 00:01:20,200 --> 00:01:23,200 then come and join the Growth Hub at wwspodcast.com. 32 00:01:23,360 --> 00:01:25,920 The Growth Hub is an exclusive community just for Shopify 33 00:01:25,920 --> 00:01:27,640 brands. We have round table sessions, 34 00:01:27,640 --> 00:01:31,000 focus groups, feedback sessions, and ask an expert portal and 35 00:01:31,000 --> 00:01:32,760 most importantly the community itself. 36 00:01:32,760 --> 00:01:34,840 You can ask questions and see what other people are talking 37 00:01:34,840 --> 00:01:37,360 about and you can also just follow other conversations and 38 00:01:37,360 --> 00:01:39,880 see what conclusions people come to in terms of how to run their 39 00:01:39,880 --> 00:01:42,240 business best. Today I'll caught up with McCoy, 40 00:01:42,240 --> 00:01:44,160 who's the CMO of Portland Leather goods. 41 00:01:44,160 --> 00:01:46,680 Mccoy's an absolute legend and he's been on the podcast before 42 00:01:46,680 --> 00:01:49,080 two years ago. Two years ago he told us that 43 00:01:49,080 --> 00:01:52,480 they've grown from 600,000 subscribers to 1.5 million 44 00:01:52,480 --> 00:01:56,400 subscribers on their e-mail campaigns in just four months. 45 00:01:56,560 --> 00:01:58,960 So in this episode we find out how much more have they grown 46 00:01:58,960 --> 00:02:00,600 and how is the business running overall. 47 00:02:00,960 --> 00:02:02,440 Couple of other topics that we do talk about. 48 00:02:02,440 --> 00:02:05,960 We talk about Etsy, women that are engaged, Shopify startups, 49 00:02:05,960 --> 00:02:08,919 shipping inefficiencies, lifetime value, e-mail, multi 50 00:02:08,919 --> 00:02:12,520 channel, limiting your own beliefs, CRO, the army and 51 00:02:12,520 --> 00:02:14,520 management. So today is not to be missed. 52 00:02:14,520 --> 00:02:17,080 We covered a lot of ground in a very short space of time. 53 00:02:17,080 --> 00:02:19,160 So if you haven't already, hit the subscribe button, sit back 54 00:02:19,160 --> 00:02:20,840 and relax. And I hope you enjoyed today's 55 00:02:20,880 --> 00:02:23,440 episode. McCoy, welcome back to the show. 56 00:02:23,440 --> 00:02:25,640 How are you? Nick, I'm doing fantastic. 57 00:02:25,640 --> 00:02:27,120 Thanks for having me back. I really appreciate it. 58 00:02:28,160 --> 00:02:29,080 Well, it's a pleasure to have you back. 59 00:02:29,080 --> 00:02:30,400 We've been desperate to get you back. 60 00:02:30,400 --> 00:02:32,320 I know you have a very busy schedule, but we're delighted to 61 00:02:32,320 --> 00:02:34,960 have you back with us today. For anyone that missed your 62 00:02:34,960 --> 00:02:36,680 first episode, it was a couple of years ago. 63 00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:40,000 Naturally, we've picked up loads of new subscribers since then. 64 00:02:40,000 --> 00:02:41,840 And if you're not subscribe, hit the subscribe button everybody. 65 00:02:42,200 --> 00:02:45,280 But tell us quickly, McCoy, a little bit about the business 66 00:02:45,280 --> 00:02:48,120 you're part of and your role within Portland Leather Goods as 67 00:02:48,120 --> 00:02:48,760 well. Perfect. 68 00:02:48,760 --> 00:02:51,400 Yeah, Well, I'm McCoy. I'm the CMO of Portland Leather 69 00:02:51,400 --> 00:02:53,360 Goods. I joined Portland Leather Goods 70 00:02:53,360 --> 00:02:56,880 in March of 2018. Portland Leather Goods at the 71 00:02:56,880 --> 00:02:59,640 time was very much an Etsy company, very small. 72 00:03:00,040 --> 00:03:02,600 We focused on like your traditional Etsy crafts. 73 00:03:02,600 --> 00:03:04,360 So obviously in the leather goods space. 74 00:03:04,360 --> 00:03:07,160 So this is like makeup bags and journals and you could monogram 75 00:03:07,160 --> 00:03:10,360 your name on it. That feels like a lifetime ago 76 00:03:10,360 --> 00:03:13,280 and a whirled away from where we are now or now one of the 77 00:03:13,280 --> 00:03:15,720 largest bag independent bag brands here in the United 78 00:03:15,720 --> 00:03:18,840 States. And again, as I mentioned, my 79 00:03:18,840 --> 00:03:21,280 role was the CMO. I run the all of the marketing 80 00:03:21,280 --> 00:03:24,720 teams and the advertising teams and it's been a whirlwind. 81 00:03:24,760 --> 00:03:28,200 Like I, I don't recognise the company today from where it was. 82 00:03:28,200 --> 00:03:31,760 We've gone through several rebirths of who we thought we 83 00:03:31,760 --> 00:03:34,840 were and where we thought we were going, leading us to where 84 00:03:34,840 --> 00:03:36,440 we are now. We're on the cusp of some really 85 00:03:36,440 --> 00:03:38,280 exciting things. Maybe we'll get into those 86 00:03:38,280 --> 00:03:39,600 today. Some of those are top secret, 87 00:03:39,600 --> 00:03:41,760 but well, I'll share as much as I possibly can. 88 00:03:42,800 --> 00:03:45,800 Good, good. And yeah, I've asked McCoy for 89 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:48,000 permission to mention some of the stats and he said yes to all 90 00:03:48,000 --> 00:03:49,520 of them so far. But as you said, there's always 91 00:03:49,520 --> 00:03:52,080 going to be top secret things and every business has it's 92 00:03:52,080 --> 00:03:54,080 secret sauce. And if you share it, it's no 93 00:03:54,080 --> 00:03:55,880 longer secret sauce. And you've got to find another 94 00:03:55,880 --> 00:03:56,960 one before you can pass this catch up. 95 00:03:56,960 --> 00:03:59,920 So I completely understand. But yeah, as I say, it's so good 96 00:03:59,920 --> 00:04:01,280 to have you back. Appreciate your introduction 97 00:04:01,280 --> 00:04:03,760 there as well. You mentioned a lot of change. 98 00:04:03,760 --> 00:04:06,280 Now, I said to you before we hit record, we're not going to stick 99 00:04:06,280 --> 00:04:08,120 to the agenda at all. I'm going to leave the agenda 100 00:04:08,120 --> 00:04:09,800 behind for now. We'll come back to it in a 101 00:04:09,800 --> 00:04:11,200 minute. But you mentioned, and I don't 102 00:04:11,200 --> 00:04:12,880 think you mentioned this last time actually you guys, you 103 00:04:12,880 --> 00:04:15,440 started on Etsy. So that was the main place you 104 00:04:15,440 --> 00:04:17,360 guys were selling when when you first joined the business, was 105 00:04:17,360 --> 00:04:18,800 it? Yeah, that's correct. 106 00:04:18,800 --> 00:04:20,440 Yeah, we were. We were doing about 3 1/2 107 00:04:20,440 --> 00:04:23,560 million on Etsy, which is not a small Etsy company by any means. 108 00:04:24,440 --> 00:04:27,000 We, Curt Curtis tells the story. Curtis is our founder. 109 00:04:27,400 --> 00:04:30,400 He actually had to call Etsy headquarters in New York to get 110 00:04:30,400 --> 00:04:34,000 the advertising daily capital limit lifted for the entire 111 00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:35,800 platform. So he was spending, I think it 112 00:04:35,800 --> 00:04:38,080 was a maybe $1000 a day. And he called New York and said, 113 00:04:38,160 --> 00:04:40,480 I have to spend more. And they're like, no one spends 114 00:04:40,480 --> 00:04:41,960 more than $1000. This is Etsy. 115 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:44,080 Like, excuse me, Sir, what are you talking about? 116 00:04:44,400 --> 00:04:46,920 So we're one of the original reasons why Etsy actually lifted 117 00:04:46,920 --> 00:04:48,680 their advertising capital $1000 a day. 118 00:04:48,680 --> 00:04:50,080 They kind of shrug their shoulders and like, we'd 119 00:04:50,080 --> 00:04:52,440 actually, we don't actually know why we limit it there, but 120 00:04:52,680 --> 00:04:55,120 we'll, we'll lift it for you. So yes, very much an Etsy. 121 00:04:55,120 --> 00:04:56,320 Company. How kind of them? 122 00:04:56,320 --> 00:05:00,640 Yes, generous. But I mean, it's interesting you 123 00:05:00,640 --> 00:05:02,840 started on Etsy then. So it was one of your first jobs 124 00:05:02,840 --> 00:05:05,360 when you came in the door then was like, hey, McCoy, we need a 125 00:05:05,360 --> 00:05:08,200 website or we've got a website. It's terrible, like get going. 126 00:05:08,200 --> 00:05:09,400 And that was your first remit, was it? 127 00:05:09,400 --> 00:05:11,320 Or did you start on Etsy and then kind of branch out? 128 00:05:11,680 --> 00:05:13,880 Yeah, so I'm, I'm a recovering wedding photographer. 129 00:05:13,880 --> 00:05:15,400 Like I just, I, that was my life. 130 00:05:15,400 --> 00:05:17,600 And now I've left that behind. I'm so sick of, you know, 131 00:05:17,760 --> 00:05:19,920 running around for 12 hours a day carrying tonnes of camera 132 00:05:19,920 --> 00:05:22,520 gear. But when I started, my job was 133 00:05:22,520 --> 00:05:24,880 very like undefined, I should say. 134 00:05:25,080 --> 00:05:27,840 I saw a crazy ad on Craigslist and decided to, you know, just 135 00:05:27,840 --> 00:05:29,280 walk in and try to join the team. 136 00:05:29,560 --> 00:05:31,880 I know. So my original title was digital 137 00:05:31,880 --> 00:05:34,120 media specialist. So when I walked in the door 138 00:05:34,120 --> 00:05:36,280 that first day, they said, you know, high Report leather goods, 139 00:05:36,800 --> 00:05:38,920 We have this Etsy company. And I was like, yeah, yeah, 140 00:05:38,920 --> 00:05:40,000 yeah. I don't want anything to do with 141 00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:41,680 that. I know how to run ads because I 142 00:05:41,680 --> 00:05:43,840 run ads for my wedding photography business so I can 143 00:05:43,840 --> 00:05:46,200 target engaged women. I know how to do that. 144 00:05:46,200 --> 00:05:49,320 I've used, you know, interest in demo targeting on Facebook, and 145 00:05:49,800 --> 00:05:53,520 that led me to start to try to advertise their makeup bags and 146 00:05:53,520 --> 00:05:56,000 toiletry bags for that. They were, we were advertising 147 00:05:56,000 --> 00:05:57,880 for bridesmaids and groomsmen at the time. 148 00:05:58,200 --> 00:05:59,720 And I was like, I don't want nothing to do with 149 00:05:59,720 --> 00:06:03,480 etsythislittle.com thing that's that's going to be my domain. 150 00:06:03,480 --> 00:06:07,080 So I very specifically didn't have an Etsy login, didn't know 151 00:06:07,080 --> 00:06:09,600 how to access the platform, and I spent all my time focusing on 152 00:06:09,600 --> 00:06:10,360 the website. Yeah. 153 00:06:12,000 --> 00:06:14,680 And I find it amazing because I mean, so where where my business 154 00:06:14,680 --> 00:06:17,040 is behind this Wolf spec. We get a lot of brands that come 155 00:06:17,040 --> 00:06:19,520 to us and it's not so much Etsy. We find it's more like more 156 00:06:19,520 --> 00:06:20,880 Amazon. It's like we're doing so much on 157 00:06:20,880 --> 00:06:22,120 Amazon. We want to launch our own direct 158 00:06:22,120 --> 00:06:24,920 to consumer. Now that comes with so many 159 00:06:24,920 --> 00:06:27,160 challenges. Of course, I'm going to share in 160 00:06:27,160 --> 00:06:29,640 a minute as well, just reference benefits, some stats that McCoy 161 00:06:29,640 --> 00:06:31,040 shared with us a couple of years ago when he was on. 162 00:06:31,040 --> 00:06:33,280 And we're going to find out if he's received the WhatsApp 163 00:06:33,280 --> 00:06:36,160 message in time, what the stats now are as well. 164 00:06:36,160 --> 00:06:38,440 And that that's part of the story as well, how connected or 165 00:06:38,440 --> 00:06:40,240 disconnected he's getting with some of the micro stuff. 166 00:06:40,960 --> 00:06:43,160 But yeah, we, we, we've been through that challenge with, 167 00:06:43,160 --> 00:06:45,480 with so many different brands of trying to go, OK, we've got this 168 00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:47,400 marketplace platform doing everything for us. 169 00:06:47,400 --> 00:06:50,040 They take a massive Commission. We have very little control. 170 00:06:50,040 --> 00:06:51,920 Obviously on Etsy at least you're still sending your own 171 00:06:51,920 --> 00:06:53,960 products out. Whereas on Amazon, it's like if 172 00:06:53,960 --> 00:06:56,400 we want to really harness Amazon, we've got to get and do 173 00:06:56,400 --> 00:06:58,280 that. That's more cost as well. 174 00:06:58,480 --> 00:07:00,680 But we offer an amazing service. But then if another company 175 00:07:00,680 --> 00:07:02,920 comes along and Amazon likes them more than us, we're 176 00:07:02,920 --> 00:07:04,240 bankrupt. We've lost everything. 177 00:07:04,520 --> 00:07:06,880 So what were some of those early challenges of getting that 178 00:07:06,880 --> 00:07:09,120 first? I assume Shopify was the 179 00:07:09,280 --> 00:07:10,680 platform. Was it a platform before that? 180 00:07:10,680 --> 00:07:12,560 What were some of those early challenges you guys started 181 00:07:12,560 --> 00:07:14,080 with? Man, that's a great question. 182 00:07:14,840 --> 00:07:17,280 Yeah, as as I mentioned, so we had this Etsy company and that 183 00:07:17,280 --> 00:07:20,720 was only about 3 1/2 million. The website, it, it existed 184 00:07:20,720 --> 00:07:23,040 there was kind of like a shell and a frame that that I had to 185 00:07:23,040 --> 00:07:25,200 play with. We were doing somewhere in the 186 00:07:25,200 --> 00:07:28,160 neighbourhood like $1600 a day on that website. 187 00:07:28,160 --> 00:07:33,640 So Shopify was very much like the, the little side project no 188 00:07:33,640 --> 00:07:35,720 one cared about. All of the company internally 189 00:07:35,720 --> 00:07:41,440 was focused on etsy.com. And from there, like the way we, 190 00:07:41,440 --> 00:07:43,720 we just, we focus on getting especially me, like the team at 191 00:07:43,720 --> 00:07:46,600 the time was Curtis, who I shared a desk with, like with 192 00:07:46,800 --> 00:07:49,760 our founder. And we had one other graphic 193 00:07:49,760 --> 00:07:52,520 designer who was titled creative designer named Erica. 194 00:07:52,960 --> 00:07:55,640 And every day I just would come in and try to focus on just 195 00:07:55,640 --> 00:07:59,440 getting a little bit better. And that, oh, where is it this 196 00:07:59,440 --> 00:08:01,560 way? When you're in the start of 197 00:08:01,560 --> 00:08:05,640 phase, you, you care so much about, you value motion because 198 00:08:05,640 --> 00:08:08,000 nothing exists. So the most valuable thing that 199 00:08:08,000 --> 00:08:12,280 happens to you usually on a given day is not what eventually 200 00:08:12,280 --> 00:08:15,200 you'll care about, you know, optimizations and, and trying to 201 00:08:15,960 --> 00:08:17,280 get a little bit more out of that every day. 202 00:08:17,520 --> 00:08:20,240 You care about somebody showing up in the door and making 203 00:08:20,240 --> 00:08:22,600 something, just making anything because nothing exists. 204 00:08:22,920 --> 00:08:24,520 So it's your primary metric for success. 205 00:08:24,520 --> 00:08:26,760 Somebody shows up and they had an idea and they did it. 206 00:08:26,760 --> 00:08:29,360 And now something exists in the corner and you can kind of use 207 00:08:29,360 --> 00:08:32,400 it as a tool. And, and then eventually at some 208 00:08:32,400 --> 00:08:35,039 point, the business transition where it's large enough to where 209 00:08:35,039 --> 00:08:38,400 you, your primary value being motion or somebody willing to 210 00:08:38,400 --> 00:08:40,880 show up and do something. You value the accuracy of that 211 00:08:40,880 --> 00:08:43,799 motion or the calibration of that motion to really hone in on 212 00:08:43,799 --> 00:08:45,560 what's most important at that time. 213 00:08:46,000 --> 00:08:48,080 Because eventually you get to a point where the business has 214 00:08:48,080 --> 00:08:50,960 more to lose with reckless motion than it does to gain. 215 00:08:51,120 --> 00:08:52,320 But in the beginning, that's not true. 216 00:08:52,320 --> 00:08:55,920 You just need things to exist. So I, when I think back to those 217 00:08:55,920 --> 00:08:59,880 early days, I mean, problems were infinite, right? 218 00:08:59,880 --> 00:09:03,200 There was no shortage of like, what can I do today to make the 219 00:09:03,200 --> 00:09:05,880 business better? I remember 1, like really famous 220 00:09:05,880 --> 00:09:10,440 example was I, I'm starting to hunt down optimizations on the 221 00:09:10,440 --> 00:09:13,880 website and I look for, I start again. 222 00:09:13,880 --> 00:09:15,640 I know nothing about Shopify at the time, I was a wedding 223 00:09:15,640 --> 00:09:17,480 photographer. So I start hunting down all the 224 00:09:17,480 --> 00:09:20,240 different stats in the dashboard and just try to find something 225 00:09:20,240 --> 00:09:22,480 that I can lock in on and say, OK, this is not good and I'm 226 00:09:22,480 --> 00:09:24,360 going to make it better. And one of the things at the 227 00:09:24,360 --> 00:09:28,240 time was we had an incredibly high spread between the number 228 00:09:28,240 --> 00:09:30,280 of people who reach checkout and the people who actually 229 00:09:30,280 --> 00:09:32,760 converted. And again, I'm very new and I'm 230 00:09:32,760 --> 00:09:34,760 like, OK, I don't know what that means, but I would like more 231 00:09:34,760 --> 00:09:37,440 people to convert. So let me attack that particular 232 00:09:37,440 --> 00:09:39,560 like subject. What's happening between when 233 00:09:39,560 --> 00:09:42,440 you reach checkout to when you actually make the purchase? 234 00:09:42,440 --> 00:09:45,800 And the thing I noticed was we had no concept whatsoever 235 00:09:45,800 --> 00:09:48,760 because we were on Etsy and shipping was much more simple to 236 00:09:48,760 --> 00:09:52,160 handle than trying to create custom rules or understand our 237 00:09:52,160 --> 00:09:53,920 volumetric weight and things like that. 238 00:09:53,920 --> 00:09:58,200 Where our shipping prices on Shopify where very, very, very, 239 00:09:58,200 --> 00:10:00,000 very high. We didn't have any negotiated 240 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:01,600 rates with any carriers. We haven't even, you know, 241 00:10:01,600 --> 00:10:04,760 attempted that relationship. And we were charging people 20 242 00:10:04,760 --> 00:10:07,640 and $25.00 to ship a bag. Now that's what we thought it 243 00:10:07,640 --> 00:10:09,200 cost. We just didn't know better. 244 00:10:09,960 --> 00:10:12,120 And I remember going to the shipping team and I said, hey, 245 00:10:12,120 --> 00:10:13,960 this seems, this seems really crazy. 246 00:10:14,040 --> 00:10:17,120 Like I, I, I, I don't think we're going to be able to scale 247 00:10:17,120 --> 00:10:20,400 this thing if we have to charge somebody $25.00 to ship them a 248 00:10:20,400 --> 00:10:22,120 small bag. You know, this is Amazon. 249 00:10:22,120 --> 00:10:25,840 They're used to free shipping. And I said, I believe we're 250 00:10:25,840 --> 00:10:27,640 losing. And this was the, quote, 251 00:10:27,640 --> 00:10:31,000 thousands of dollars per day. And I quite literally got 252 00:10:31,000 --> 00:10:32,720 laughed at because we were a small company. 253 00:10:32,720 --> 00:10:34,080 We didn't know. And they said, you think 254 00:10:34,080 --> 00:10:35,480 thousands of dollars? Really. 255 00:10:35,480 --> 00:10:37,240 We're losing thousands of dollars per day. 256 00:10:37,520 --> 00:10:40,920 And I was like, yeah, but that was the scale of our mind at the 257 00:10:40,920 --> 00:10:43,200 time. You know, we were doing $800 a 258 00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:44,640 day. And here I was saying, I think 259 00:10:44,640 --> 00:10:47,720 we're losing thousands. And that was just multiple times 260 00:10:47,720 --> 00:10:49,240 our daily revenue. There's no way that could 261 00:10:49,240 --> 00:10:51,680 possibly be true. So I think about stuff like 262 00:10:51,680 --> 00:10:53,720 that. It's it's this hunt and kill of 263 00:10:53,720 --> 00:10:57,240 inefficiency mode when you're in that start up phase to just make 264 00:10:57,240 --> 00:10:59,760 everything a little bit better every single day. 265 00:10:59,760 --> 00:11:02,160 And it's a little careless, it's a little reckless. 266 00:11:02,160 --> 00:11:04,560 And that's kind of what you want is somebody hunting down the 267 00:11:04,560 --> 00:11:07,400 lowest hanging fruit and just seeing if they can get you to a 268 00:11:07,400 --> 00:11:09,360 little bit higher the next day and a little bit higher the next 269 00:11:09,360 --> 00:11:10,640 day. And if you do that for 30 days 270 00:11:10,640 --> 00:11:13,400 in a row, you'll be shocked at how much further you were you 271 00:11:13,400 --> 00:11:14,840 are at now than when you started. 272 00:11:15,080 --> 00:11:17,520 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Someone said to me the day that 273 00:11:17,520 --> 00:11:20,000 to walk 1000 kilometres you've got to take. 274 00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:22,920 Was it a 100,000 steps so I was in the? 275 00:11:22,920 --> 00:11:24,960 United States, the kilometres blows my mind, yeah. 276 00:11:25,600 --> 00:11:27,640 It sounds right to me. Yeah, exactly. 277 00:11:27,640 --> 00:11:29,280 And it's probably not those exact numbers. 278 00:11:29,280 --> 00:11:31,440 So don't go out walking now and come back to me in a year's time 279 00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:32,800 and say I've done 100,000 kilometres. 280 00:11:32,800 --> 00:11:34,880 It wasn't, it was more steps than that, but you get the idea. 281 00:11:34,880 --> 00:11:37,080 It's one step at a time equals a long distance. 282 00:11:37,560 --> 00:11:39,720 And I I love that you focus on those things. 283 00:11:39,720 --> 00:11:44,440 And sometimes I think something seems so obviously wrong or 284 00:11:44,440 --> 00:11:47,240 obviously the wrong thing to look at until you start making a 285 00:11:47,240 --> 00:11:49,280 difference. And I take it that that 286 00:11:49,280 --> 00:11:51,640 particular story has the conclusion that like, yeah, we 287 00:11:51,640 --> 00:11:53,600 lowered the shipping cost and suddenly more people were buying 288 00:11:53,600 --> 00:11:55,000 stuff. You nailed it. 289 00:11:55,000 --> 00:11:57,760 Yeah, it really, it's one of the great, like, tragedies of 290 00:11:57,760 --> 00:12:00,640 business advice where it always sounds so simple. 291 00:12:00,840 --> 00:12:03,400 And if you do enough of those simple, you hear simple things 292 00:12:03,400 --> 00:12:05,360 like that, like, hey, it's probably a good idea to lower a 293 00:12:05,360 --> 00:12:07,400 shipping price. And it sounds too simple. 294 00:12:07,400 --> 00:12:09,280 And so it's not usually where people go out and they like 295 00:12:09,280 --> 00:12:11,160 focus their action because they're looking for the big hack 296 00:12:11,160 --> 00:12:13,400 or the big next thing. But the, I mean, the real 297 00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:14,960 tragedy is like, that's the truth. 298 00:12:14,960 --> 00:12:18,080 If you do enough simple small wins and you stack them over 299 00:12:18,080 --> 00:12:19,400 time, like that is how you get ahead. 300 00:12:19,400 --> 00:12:21,640 So you're exactly right. You lower shipping price, guess 301 00:12:21,640 --> 00:12:22,960 what happens? Conversion rate goes up. 302 00:12:23,000 --> 00:12:24,320 Guess what happens? More money hits the bank 303 00:12:24,320 --> 00:12:26,080 account. So you're, I didn't put a bull 304 00:12:26,080 --> 00:12:27,440 on that story. So thank you for wrapping that 305 00:12:27,440 --> 00:12:28,560 up for me. Correct. 306 00:12:28,640 --> 00:12:31,160 That's good. I mean, we, we did a test with a 307 00:12:31,160 --> 00:12:33,560 client that we I've only got the data back on it today. 308 00:12:33,600 --> 00:12:35,920 They've increased their guarantee on the products. 309 00:12:35,920 --> 00:12:37,680 So the product goes wrong, you can bring it back, it's 310 00:12:37,680 --> 00:12:40,320 currently two years and they've done an AB test of making it 311 00:12:40,320 --> 00:12:43,000 five years and they were like, surely it's going to have no 312 00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:44,360 impact. And I was like, OK, but no 313 00:12:44,360 --> 00:12:45,880 impact. It's still a good learning. 314 00:12:45,880 --> 00:12:48,120 The customers don't care and they'd come back and they have 315 00:12:48,120 --> 00:12:52,040 5% more sales when they do it. So it's a 5% uplift in total 316 00:12:52,040 --> 00:12:53,760 revenue. So not unfortunately not a 5% 317 00:12:53,760 --> 00:12:55,800 conversion rate uplift. That would be nice conversion 318 00:12:55,800 --> 00:12:57,520 rate, but it was still like nought .3%. 319 00:12:57,520 --> 00:13:00,000 I said, look, we find 10 of these things, we've over doubled 320 00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:01,960 our conversion rate. Everyone clear? 321 00:13:01,960 --> 00:13:03,640 Yeah, we've done one. We need 9 more now. 322 00:13:03,640 --> 00:13:05,240 Let's go. And that could be changing the 323 00:13:05,240 --> 00:13:06,280 colour of the button or something. 324 00:13:07,080 --> 00:13:09,840 Let's, I could talk about the early days all day, but I want 325 00:13:09,840 --> 00:13:11,840 to get on to some of these juicy numbers that we got last time. 326 00:13:12,080 --> 00:13:15,480 So let's Fast forward. I mean a long, long time for 327 00:13:15,480 --> 00:13:16,720 you. And certainly in this day and 328 00:13:16,720 --> 00:13:18,320 age where people are moving every two or three years in 329 00:13:18,320 --> 00:13:20,640 their roles. Let's Fast forward to two years 330 00:13:20,640 --> 00:13:23,400 ago when you came on, you had 600,000 subscribers and then the 331 00:13:23,400 --> 00:13:25,320 day we spoke to you was four months after that and you had 332 00:13:25,320 --> 00:13:29,400 1.5 million subscribers. And as e-mail subscribers 333 00:13:29,400 --> 00:13:31,680 receiving emails from you guys, it's a big part of your lifetime 334 00:13:31,680 --> 00:13:33,400 value. Anyone listening to that is 335 00:13:33,400 --> 00:13:37,200 like, Oh my gosh, how use retention.com and a whole series 336 00:13:37,200 --> 00:13:39,360 of very complicated marketing tactics as well. 337 00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:41,760 It wasn't as simple as just turning it on and bang, we're 338 00:13:41,760 --> 00:13:44,320 making more money. Tell us a little bit about the 339 00:13:44,320 --> 00:13:46,760 strategy to get from 600K to 1.5 million. 340 00:13:46,760 --> 00:13:49,320 And then where are you today, two years on from that as well? 341 00:13:49,480 --> 00:13:51,880 Yeah. I mean, we, we mentioned it last 342 00:13:51,880 --> 00:13:55,120 time, like obviously we, we were introduced to the podcast by 343 00:13:55,440 --> 00:13:57,960 retention.com and that was a software we were just starting 344 00:13:57,960 --> 00:14:00,800 to use and that's been incredibly successful for us. 345 00:14:02,080 --> 00:14:06,520 There's been a, definitely like an art to it, I should say, as 346 00:14:06,520 --> 00:14:09,320 with anything like, I mean, marketing is the art of being 347 00:14:09,320 --> 00:14:11,880 gentle and subtle, like not holding a gun to somebody's head 348 00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:13,280 and, and asking them to buy, right. 349 00:14:13,640 --> 00:14:16,880 And so from where we were, like, I remember the first time we 350 00:14:16,880 --> 00:14:18,960 heard about, you know, technologies like retention.com 351 00:14:18,960 --> 00:14:22,440 and this was early in our, our marketing team today. 352 00:14:22,440 --> 00:14:25,720 Like up up until very recently, it was just myself and my 353 00:14:25,720 --> 00:14:27,600 colleague Matt. So it was a very, very, very, 354 00:14:27,600 --> 00:14:30,400 and we were at the 9 figure scale when that we were hitting 355 00:14:30,720 --> 00:14:33,040 just two people. So it's been a very small as far 356 00:14:33,040 --> 00:14:35,920 as like the actual paid media and advertising and e-mail and 357 00:14:35,920 --> 00:14:38,640 SMS strategy. I remember when we first heard 358 00:14:38,640 --> 00:14:42,200 about technologies like retention.com and the technology 359 00:14:42,200 --> 00:14:44,200 was exciting. But what excited Matt and I the 360 00:14:44,200 --> 00:14:48,760 most about is like what we could do with that extra scale of 361 00:14:48,880 --> 00:14:52,200 volume inside of our accounts. Like we understand. 362 00:14:52,240 --> 00:14:57,200 And so there's a finesse to it, which is like, OK, more e-mail 363 00:14:57,200 --> 00:15:01,400 does not equal more revenue. It does not like it's plenty 364 00:15:01,440 --> 00:15:03,920 possible to degrade your, the quality of your e-mail list. 365 00:15:04,440 --> 00:15:07,160 It's plenty possible to degrade the quality of your segmentation 366 00:15:07,440 --> 00:15:13,400 to really mess up and not nurture correct flows and to not 367 00:15:13,400 --> 00:15:16,080 do the proper optimizations and AB testing on that. 368 00:15:16,680 --> 00:15:19,760 But from what you mentioned, we, we started with 600K at the time 369 00:15:20,480 --> 00:15:22,720 at the point of reference which in which we talked last and then 370 00:15:22,720 --> 00:15:24,360 we were ending at about 1.5 million. 371 00:15:25,040 --> 00:15:27,920 I am not going to, I'll, we'll edit in or I'll tell you later 372 00:15:28,040 --> 00:15:30,800 the exact number because I don't want to misspeak on the actual 373 00:15:30,800 --> 00:15:33,240 date and where we are now because I'm waiting for this to 374 00:15:33,240 --> 00:15:35,360 load here on my corner screen to tell you the exact number of 375 00:15:35,520 --> 00:15:37,480 number of e-mail subscribers. But I will share that with you. 376 00:15:38,800 --> 00:15:41,840 But it's, I mean, it's exploded to, to put it lightly, we're 377 00:15:41,840 --> 00:15:43,840 finishing on our second year over the 9 figure scale. 378 00:15:43,840 --> 00:15:46,600 So we're now officially stabilised over the $100 million 379 00:15:46,600 --> 00:15:48,240 mark, which we're very excited about. 380 00:15:49,160 --> 00:15:52,800 But e-mail in general, again, I'm, I'm mostly focused on the 381 00:15:52,800 --> 00:15:56,680 Meta and the paid ad sign e-mail is by far the domain of my 382 00:15:56,680 --> 00:15:59,360 colleague Matt. But I'll just say that we have 383 00:15:59,360 --> 00:16:02,520 adjusted how we look at e-mail, how we look at SMS and how we 384 00:16:02,520 --> 00:16:06,800 look at the customer journey since then in a completely new 385 00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:08,880 light. And I think that we're maturing 386 00:16:08,920 --> 00:16:11,920 as the brand hits new, larger and larger scales. 387 00:16:11,920 --> 00:16:14,800 And it's similar to the point I just mentioned before where you 388 00:16:14,800 --> 00:16:17,800 start with motion and then you slowly work into a calibration 389 00:16:17,800 --> 00:16:20,160 and accuracy of that motion. And I think that that's the 390 00:16:20,640 --> 00:16:23,680 phase that we're currently into is really getting specific and 391 00:16:23,680 --> 00:16:28,200 calibrated with our motion as it relates to ADS, emails, SMS, 392 00:16:28,200 --> 00:16:31,280 segmentation, you know, really putting people where they belong 393 00:16:31,520 --> 00:16:34,040 and not just trying to hammer a whole list like we used to do in 394 00:16:34,040 --> 00:16:36,600 the days of MailChimp where it was like 1 e-mail to the whole 395 00:16:36,600 --> 00:16:37,640 list. Go, go, go. 396 00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:41,880 In two years we went from 1.5 million, we're now at 4.6 397 00:16:41,880 --> 00:16:44,080 million active profiles on our Play View account. 398 00:16:44,080 --> 00:16:46,880 So massive, massive growth. The growth hasn't slowed down. 399 00:16:47,200 --> 00:16:49,080 It's only accelerated over the past few years. 400 00:16:49,080 --> 00:16:52,560 And I mean, we, we, we didn't imagine we would get to there 401 00:16:52,560 --> 00:16:53,720 this quick. We thought it would take many, 402 00:16:53,720 --> 00:16:56,600 many more years than where we're sitting at today to get to that, 403 00:16:56,600 --> 00:16:59,120 that total scale. I think it's amazing that the 404 00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:01,080 way you talk about that actually the way you think about e-mail 405 00:17:01,080 --> 00:17:03,960 and I, I think e-mail itself has changed as well, the way 406 00:17:04,280 --> 00:17:06,760 customers perceive it, the way they receive emails, the way 407 00:17:06,760 --> 00:17:10,240 spam philtres work. If if anyone's listening and and 408 00:17:10,240 --> 00:17:13,040 hasn't signed up yet, definitely get involved in our community. 409 00:17:13,119 --> 00:17:14,599 The William Shopify growth Hub it's called. 410 00:17:15,359 --> 00:17:18,079 We had a round table only a few days ago, about two days before 411 00:17:18,079 --> 00:17:21,440 we I'm filming this with McCoy right now. 2 days ago we had a 412 00:17:21,440 --> 00:17:23,359 round table about e-mail and one of the biggest things we were 413 00:17:23,359 --> 00:17:26,440 discussing actually is how Microsoft currently is giving 414 00:17:26,440 --> 00:17:29,280 really bad spam scores to lots and lots of people on e-mail. 415 00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:31,720 When we discussed actually how to come around that and 416 00:17:31,720 --> 00:17:34,240 someone's has gone as far as changing the IP address that 417 00:17:34,240 --> 00:17:35,640 emails are sent from. They're using a new e-mail 418 00:17:35,640 --> 00:17:38,480 platform and they're now even sending changing the actual name 419 00:17:38,480 --> 00:17:40,960 within the e-mail account that it's sending the emails out. 420 00:17:41,400 --> 00:17:44,040 But even that's going to start with like e-mail nought .1% of 421 00:17:44,040 --> 00:17:47,480 your audience, 1%, then e-mail 2%, then e-mail 5% and 10%. 422 00:17:47,480 --> 00:17:50,840 So slowly ramp your way up. And I think e-mail has changed 423 00:17:50,840 --> 00:17:53,400 so much, as you say, McCoy, from the days where we used to just 424 00:17:53,400 --> 00:17:55,440 blast something out. I think the only time we blast 425 00:17:55,440 --> 00:17:57,720 anything out these days when there's such a big announcement, 426 00:17:58,040 --> 00:18:00,360 even then you send at least 4 versions of it to go, like which 427 00:18:00,360 --> 00:18:02,840 one of the four was the most, you know, the most punchy. 428 00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:05,160 Or do we change the language slightly to any segmentations 429 00:18:05,160 --> 00:18:07,680 that we are aware of in our e-mail database? 430 00:18:08,200 --> 00:18:10,080 But I guess to ask a question is a bit more as you say, kind of 431 00:18:10,080 --> 00:18:12,560 in your field as opposed to what Matt's doing. 432 00:18:12,560 --> 00:18:14,520 And Matt's great by the way, we did have him on the other 433 00:18:14,520 --> 00:18:17,200 episode and a couple of he's going, he was fantastic in 434 00:18:17,200 --> 00:18:19,840 talking about some of this. But your field then of Google 435 00:18:19,840 --> 00:18:21,960 ads and Meta ads. How do how do you and Matt? 436 00:18:21,960 --> 00:18:26,040 Work together or get those two mechanisms of advertising and 437 00:18:26,040 --> 00:18:28,800 e-mail to work together? Like is it 1 brings the customer 438 00:18:28,800 --> 00:18:31,000 in and then almost like a completely second thing kicks in 439 00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:33,120 called e-mail? Or do you guys actually manage 440 00:18:33,120 --> 00:18:34,240 to sync some of that up together? 441 00:18:34,720 --> 00:18:35,600 Yeah, that's a really good question. 442 00:18:35,840 --> 00:18:37,920 As I mentioned, like we're we're in the process of really trying 443 00:18:37,920 --> 00:18:41,600 to mature in the way that we handle the, let's say, the 444 00:18:41,600 --> 00:18:44,520 generation of revenue. So the first thing that we do, 445 00:18:44,520 --> 00:18:46,600 and because that's how I'm going to attack this promise, like, 446 00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:48,760 OK, we as a business need to generate revenue and we're going 447 00:18:48,760 --> 00:18:51,080 to do it through the activities of one, acquisition and two, 448 00:18:51,080 --> 00:18:53,960 retention where that that's how we conceptualise it too. 449 00:18:54,960 --> 00:18:57,200 Matt is our Director of Marketing and now inside of his 450 00:18:57,200 --> 00:19:00,000 team he has somebody who's focused on media buying, which 451 00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:02,600 is shorthand for acquisition and he has somebody in the retention 452 00:19:02,600 --> 00:19:06,480 marketing space. So for us when it comes to, so 453 00:19:06,520 --> 00:19:08,880 I'll only make that point of clarification where is e-mail is 454 00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:12,200 a is a piece of the retention effort, but it also shares 455 00:19:12,200 --> 00:19:14,000 activities inside of the acquisition department. 456 00:19:14,240 --> 00:19:17,160 But for us and just for all intents and purposes, we, we 457 00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:19,080 tend to conceptualise that as much more involved in the 458 00:19:19,080 --> 00:19:21,880 retention side of things then per SE the acquisition, although 459 00:19:21,880 --> 00:19:25,440 that certainly is happening, it's just not dependable as 460 00:19:25,440 --> 00:19:29,560 dependable of a platform to like if you're going to predict 461 00:19:29,560 --> 00:19:32,680 future revenue or revenue for the next 30 days to depend on 462 00:19:32,680 --> 00:19:34,000 e-mail necessarily to bring that in. 463 00:19:34,760 --> 00:19:37,280 So in any case, we look at these two activities, which is 464 00:19:37,280 --> 00:19:40,360 acquisition and retention. When it comes to acquisition, 465 00:19:40,360 --> 00:19:42,440 there's no better platform on Earth than Meta. 466 00:19:42,560 --> 00:19:45,920 Like that's just the way in the world we live in and we're no 467 00:19:45,920 --> 00:19:47,840 different when it comes to Google. 468 00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:50,600 We've kind of adjusted our perspective on Google. 469 00:19:50,800 --> 00:19:53,840 Google also is one of the things that Matt runs very, very well 470 00:19:53,840 --> 00:19:55,920 for our business. It's one of the reasons he got 471 00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:57,600 brought on the team because I had no idea. 472 00:19:57,760 --> 00:19:59,360 Again, I was a wedding photographer six years ago. 473 00:19:59,520 --> 00:20:02,440 So I figured out Meta ads and I'm like, we had no Google ads 474 00:20:02,440 --> 00:20:03,440 running. I'm like, I don't know how to do 475 00:20:03,440 --> 00:20:04,520 it. Let's hire this guy. 476 00:20:04,520 --> 00:20:06,160 He knows how to do it. And Matt, it's been phenomenal. 477 00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:09,000 But when it comes to acquisition, right? 478 00:20:09,520 --> 00:20:13,080 We focus now as a business and these are obviously hotly 479 00:20:13,080 --> 00:20:15,520 debated topics online. I'm not interested in debating 480 00:20:15,520 --> 00:20:17,240 it. I like to frame things through 481 00:20:17,440 --> 00:20:20,200 the lens of like this is what Portland Leather Goods does and 482 00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:21,480 this is how we steer the business. 483 00:20:22,080 --> 00:20:25,720 And there's a lot of reasons that we act in a specific way. 484 00:20:25,840 --> 00:20:28,040 I'm sure with anyone, there's a lot of extra conditions that 485 00:20:28,040 --> 00:20:31,240 everyone, every business has to juggle that are not going to 486 00:20:31,240 --> 00:20:33,400 appear, you know, like on the hottest Twitter thread on how 487 00:20:33,440 --> 00:20:36,920 best to run your Med account. But in any case, we're moving to 488 00:20:36,920 --> 00:20:40,720 a a much more mature way. And again, in my perspective of 489 00:20:40,720 --> 00:20:45,080 how we handle the the pass off between acquisition and 490 00:20:45,080 --> 00:20:47,840 retention. And so the biggest one of the 491 00:20:47,840 --> 00:20:51,600 larger things that we focused on is the cost reduction of 492 00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:56,080 returning customer revenue. Now what that means for us is to 493 00:20:57,080 --> 00:21:01,160 not, not retarget, not not there we go not not retarget using 494 00:21:01,160 --> 00:21:03,240 platforms like Google and Meta. We're certainly involved in 495 00:21:03,240 --> 00:21:08,000 those activities, but to learn much more heavily on things like 496 00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:12,760 e-mail and SMS and really carefully curated segmentation 497 00:21:13,040 --> 00:21:16,280 and flows and optimization of all those things so that we can 498 00:21:16,280 --> 00:21:18,400 bring in the well. And also and there's a whole 499 00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:20,400 exercise so we can tackle it after this. 500 00:21:20,400 --> 00:21:24,560 But on those using those things, emails and segmentation and 501 00:21:24,560 --> 00:21:27,440 flows to put people where they belong inside of the returning 502 00:21:27,440 --> 00:21:32,240 customer segment so that we can get the most amount of revenue 503 00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:35,920 for the lowest possible cost. And it's really easy for your 504 00:21:35,920 --> 00:21:38,440 returning customer revenue cost to run away from you if you're 505 00:21:38,440 --> 00:21:42,800 involved in not segmenting or limiting your retargeting on 506 00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:45,160 platforms like Meta. So e-mail is the primary 507 00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:49,480 mechanism from which we we tend to facilitate retention, but 508 00:21:49,480 --> 00:21:52,280 there's a whole other business strategy side that we we really 509 00:21:52,280 --> 00:21:53,720 take into account when it comes to retention. 510 00:21:53,720 --> 00:21:55,640 But that that may be a conversation for another day. 511 00:21:55,640 --> 00:21:57,440 I'll leave it there as far as it relates to e-mail. 512 00:21:57,720 --> 00:21:59,920 No, no, I love it. And you mentioned about, yeah, 513 00:21:59,920 --> 00:22:01,560 about, about Matt knowing lots about Google Ads. 514 00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:04,560 I've been running Google Ads for 17 years and I can vouch you 515 00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:07,080 meet, there's some crazy people that know about Google Ads. 516 00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:09,880 And we are a very weird and rare breed, I'm afraid. 517 00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:12,400 And we're, some of us are difficult to work with, I'll say 518 00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:14,320 that as well. Like we think Google is the only 519 00:22:14,320 --> 00:22:16,200 thing and it's the best thing. But Matt's great. 520 00:22:16,200 --> 00:22:18,720 And I think that integrated strategy guys is really, really 521 00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:21,160 powerful. And we've certainly had, we've 522 00:22:21,160 --> 00:22:24,880 had endless debates with clients about how much we spend on like 523 00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:27,560 brand on Google, for example, knowing full well they're coming 524 00:22:27,560 --> 00:22:29,840 to us anyway. And it's more an assessment of 525 00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:33,040 like if we know someone's going to convert, we don't mind paying 526 00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:36,080 a tiny bit just at the final point of conversion to stop them 527 00:22:36,080 --> 00:22:38,480 going to a reseller of our products or a competitors 528 00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:41,840 advertising on us. Even then, I, I was on a call 529 00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:43,920 only 3-4 weeks ago with one of my clients and they're three 530 00:22:43,920 --> 00:22:46,280 biggest competitors and I managed to get all of them on a 531 00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:48,720 call together and say, can we all agree to a truce? 532 00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:51,960 We had all each other's names as a negative, you know, count 533 00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:53,720 wide. And they all said yes. 534 00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:56,240 So I said, right, I'm going to share my screen and I'm going to 535 00:22:56,240 --> 00:22:57,920 show you, I'm doing it on my client right now and you all 536 00:22:57,920 --> 00:22:59,400 need to follow along. And we all did it. 537 00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:02,640 And, and, and like the, the actual budget we're spending on 538 00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:05,640 Google Now is means we've all added our own brands as a 539 00:23:05,640 --> 00:23:07,360 negative as well. So if you search any of those 540 00:23:07,360 --> 00:23:10,480 four main brands, none of our ads show, not even on our own 541 00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:12,520 name, which means we're all getting it organically. 542 00:23:12,520 --> 00:23:15,360 Everyone's slightly more profitable and the clients now 543 00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:18,120 said like, can we just keep an eye on this because at some 544 00:23:18,120 --> 00:23:19,680 point someone's going to crack and go. 545 00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:20,880 Do you know? What I'm putting them all in, 546 00:23:20,880 --> 00:23:24,200 Yeah, they'll hire a new Google agency who will change it. 547 00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:27,400 But I do think, yeah, I mean, brand is one way of doing it. 548 00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:30,120 Audience exclusions, There's quite a few ways to do it. 549 00:23:30,120 --> 00:23:32,000 And I think you guys are very, very smart to do that. 550 00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:34,280 And I think when brands are smaller, you don't need to worry 551 00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:36,640 so much because every, almost every order is a new order 552 00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:38,120 anyway because you're still trying to get your name out 553 00:23:38,120 --> 00:23:39,240 there. But there's definitely a point 554 00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:41,800 where that needs to change. As you say, what you don't want 555 00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:45,360 to do is be paying Google or Meta like $40 per, per time a 556 00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:47,240 customer comes in and purchases from you. 557 00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:50,360 That's a terrible thing when you can send an e-mail to, you know, 558 00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:53,880 thousand of them for like $1.00. And it's, it's, it's such a 559 00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:55,640 better, better cost model. And so I completely agree with 560 00:23:55,640 --> 00:23:58,080 that. Does your e-mail marketing suck? 561 00:23:58,280 --> 00:24:01,240 Do you wish it converted better and integrated better with your 562 00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:03,080 store? Well, there is a solution. 563 00:24:03,080 --> 00:24:05,720 We've partnered with Saguno who are an e-mail platform that is 564 00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:08,640 built into Shopify, which means you don't have to leave Shopify 565 00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:10,920 to go and manage your e-mail campaigns. 566 00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:13,480 So you can run your marketing at the same place you run your 567 00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:14,760 shop. To learn more, you can claim 568 00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:17,800 your free customer analysis and strategy session and visit 569 00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:21,000 saguno.com. Winning your in Shopify, that's 570 00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:25,680 S e.g. uno.com/quinn English Shopify Saguno is made for 571 00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:28,920 merchants not marketers. I mean how do you guys report 572 00:24:28,920 --> 00:24:31,240 internally I guess is one of the questions that I remember from 573 00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:32,960 our last conversation. I loved what you said about 574 00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:34,680 attribution. How do you report it? 575 00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:36,760 Like how does Matt get credit for what's going on on Google? 576 00:24:36,760 --> 00:24:39,000 What's happening within the e-mail, How you get reported 577 00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:41,000 back on meta rads? Anyone else working on this? 578 00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:43,680 Yeah, that's a good question. I mean, like, so external 579 00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:46,280 attribution hardly exists. So the truth is internal 580 00:24:46,280 --> 00:24:47,600 attribution hardly exists, right. 581 00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:50,480 So we, we're a blended team. And so we're all, you know, 582 00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:53,040 working together in tandem to make sense of all this thing. 583 00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:58,320 Just to touch off your previous point, you know, the, it's not 584 00:24:58,320 --> 00:25:01,080 to say that we're, we're not involved in the retargeting, but 585 00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:05,200 one of the anecdotes I hear a lot, and especially you're going 586 00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:07,960 to hear from your meta Rep is like costs are always rising. 587 00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:11,360 Costs are always rising. And I always say like, no, like 588 00:25:11,360 --> 00:25:13,960 there has to be some sort of limiting factor to what right to 589 00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:16,280 thousands of dollars per new customer, Like that can't be 590 00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:18,080 true. So one of the things that I find 591 00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:22,040 that is a problem inside of the industry or just inside of like 592 00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:25,520 marketing and and acquisition retention in general is when 593 00:25:25,520 --> 00:25:28,040 people say, OK, the cost of new customers are rising. 594 00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:30,840 Usually I say, OK, well, how do you, how are you finding out the 595 00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:33,160 cost of your new customer? And this is again, one of the 596 00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:35,400 internal conversations we're having between these two teams. 597 00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:38,080 Now. Our main focus is that they're 598 00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:42,000 not warring against each other. They're working together to 599 00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:43,600 create the best mix for the business. 600 00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:46,080 So internal attribution is just basically like, hey, good job. 601 00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:47,960 Hey, good job. Like let's let's monitor this as 602 00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:49,800 best we can. We use information tools like 603 00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:51,520 triple whale. We're not, we're not on North 604 00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:53,400 beam or anything like that. We've used triple whale. 605 00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:57,320 It's pretty much exclusively. It's worked great for us, but to 606 00:25:57,320 --> 00:26:00,480 the point of the, the rising cost of new customers, I'll 607 00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:02,240 usually ask people like, how are you calculating that? 608 00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:06,520 Because if you're spending advertising dollars that you are 609 00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:13,720 not sure are absolutely segmented towards the action of 610 00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:15,880 new customer acquisition, then you don't actually know your new 611 00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:18,920 customer acquisition cost. What I tend to find people do is 612 00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:21,960 take the total blended ad spend and maybe there's a few 613 00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:24,880 subtractions like they, they subtract out, let's say like 614 00:26:25,120 --> 00:26:27,520 ASMS fee that they know they're sending to a return customer 615 00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:29,120 where the segmentation is exactly clear. 616 00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:31,440 But they're looking at this total pool of ad spend and then 617 00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:34,280 saying, Oh my gosh, my, my new customer acquisition cost is 618 00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:36,320 rising because they're just dividing the ad spend against 619 00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:38,960 their total, you know, number of new customers that month, that 620 00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:42,040 week, that year, whatever it is. And so for us, again, we 621 00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:44,120 especially as it relates to platforms like Google met, it's 622 00:26:44,120 --> 00:26:46,880 a little bit more simple to add inclusion and exclusion 623 00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:48,880 criteria. And there's still leakage as 624 00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:51,880 with anything, especially with new formats like ASE, which 625 00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:54,920 we're not massively a fan of. But in any case, if we can't 626 00:26:54,920 --> 00:26:58,240 cost segment and really point back internally and say this is 627 00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:00,680 how much dollars we're spending on the activity of acquisition 628 00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:02,440 and this is the amount of dollars we're spending on the 629 00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:06,840 activity of retention, then we find that like we don't actually 630 00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:09,680 know our NCPA for that month. We need to really hone in on it 631 00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:14,800 and then make sense of it. And to put A to wrap that up, 632 00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:18,240 it's basically like our goal is to create a stabilised revenue 633 00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:20,240 generation engine for the business. 634 00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:23,160 And one that is stabilised doesn't mean one that's not 635 00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:26,360 changing, it means one that we can understand the best of our 636 00:27:26,360 --> 00:27:28,240 ability. So if it goes up, because trend 637 00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:32,080 lines go up sometimes that we understand why and how and when 638 00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:33,440 and all of the factors surrounding it. 639 00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:35,800 And when it goes down that we understand conversely just the 640 00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:38,760 same factors. So in any case, it internally, 641 00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:42,120 we're working together every single day still with that same 642 00:27:42,120 --> 00:27:45,400 like scrappy mindset, like let's make small incremental changes 643 00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:47,560 there. It, it looks less like, hey, 644 00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:49,920 let's build this giant new, you know, product line or division 645 00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:51,360 of the company. It's much more like, hey, let's 646 00:27:51,360 --> 00:27:53,640 optimise these e-mail flows, Let's optimise these advertising 647 00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:55,000 flows. Let's make sure that they match, 648 00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:57,640 you know, the, the same message together and so that they're 649 00:27:57,640 --> 00:27:59,880 more cohesive. And so the journey between their 650 00:27:59,880 --> 00:28:01,760 what they buy on their first purchase and what they buy on 651 00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:03,160 their third purchase makes sense to us. 652 00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:06,480 But but internally, again, it's very cohesive as opposed to 653 00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:08,800 let's say if you had two agencies and they're both 654 00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:11,160 competing for the same pool of revenue and trying to take 655 00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:12,960 attribution to prove their worth to you. 656 00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:14,840 So we're in a fully internal team. 657 00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:17,120 Yeah, yeah. And we, we've, we've been there 658 00:28:17,120 --> 00:28:19,840 with that attribution model and we've got, we've got a couple of 659 00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:22,360 clients where they run some things internally and 660 00:28:22,360 --> 00:28:24,800 something's externally with us and they've got like one of them 661 00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:27,120 is just bought trip away a win. And we look fantastic and the 662 00:28:27,120 --> 00:28:30,600 internal team look awful. And fortunately it was that way 663 00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:32,440 around because I think if we were the ones that looked 664 00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:34,600 terrible, if we got the lower attribution that made it, we'd 665 00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:36,800 be fired. And it's, it is hilarious. 666 00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:39,120 It's the same situation either way. 667 00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:42,080 It's just how the internal politics just just work. 668 00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:44,600 It's just the nature of humans, I think internal, external. 669 00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:46,960 But one of the things I obviously love, and you came 670 00:28:46,960 --> 00:28:48,520 back to it anyway. I was going to come back to the, 671 00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:51,280 the kind of, if you make a creative change on the website, 672 00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:53,480 those micro things have let's change the colour of the button 673 00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:56,600 or let's put a statement next to the title of this product. 674 00:28:56,600 --> 00:28:59,840 Just saying like, you know, we believe this is we're happy to 675 00:28:59,840 --> 00:29:02,080 be proven wrong, but this is the best product in the United 676 00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:04,720 States of America right now so that you know, this is the best 677 00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:07,280 leather bag you can buy in the US and we're happy to be proven 678 00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:08,440 wrong. You put something like that and 679 00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:09,760 suddenly your conversion rates go up. 680 00:29:09,760 --> 00:29:12,600 And sometimes you find all the marketing guys are like, Oh yes, 681 00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:14,960 haven't we done well this month? And as you said, if you don't 682 00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:18,200 know what things have changed and when they changed, sometimes 683 00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:20,480 it is just I think just looking at the bottom line and just 684 00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:23,520 going like right conversion half to that day or double that day. 685 00:29:23,760 --> 00:29:25,880 What do we change? And we need to keep a log of 686 00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:27,520 that. And better still, if you're AB 687 00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:31,720 testing, so you can go version B of the site and a, one of them's 688 00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:33,680 gone up when it's clearly whatever we're testing or 689 00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:35,800 actually they've both gone up. So it was nothing to do with the 690 00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:37,280 tests we're running. It was something else. 691 00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:39,760 And you can quite quickly drill down and find it because the 692 00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:42,040 most important thing is if you know the things that have really 693 00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:44,480 turned your customers on to want to convert, you do more of them. 694 00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:47,440 It's nice and simple, but I do find, I don't know how much you 695 00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:51,880 guys do when AB testing, but I find some brands I'm really, I'm 696 00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:53,560 struggling with it a little bit. I'll be honest and say on the 697 00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:56,080 podcast front of thousands of people and I do struggle with a 698 00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:57,800 little bit and I'm like, we should they be test this? 699 00:29:57,800 --> 00:29:59,920 The clients like it's obviously better just roll it out. 700 00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:01,840 And I'm like, I don't know how much better it was. 701 00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:04,400 Like we've done 10 things and we've improved, but we don't 702 00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:06,760 know which of the 10 was the most important or what impact 703 00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:09,480 each of the 10 had to then actually just rebalance our 704 00:30:09,480 --> 00:30:12,440 content and go people really care about dimensions on this 705 00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:14,480 product or the weights or especially for a bag. 706 00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:16,160 How heavy is it? It's made of real leather. 707 00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:18,240 Leather sounds heavy, you know, how heavy is it? 708 00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:20,680 It's probably an important thing, but you might find it's 709 00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:22,800 the third most important thing. Yeah, for sure. 710 00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:25,080 I mean we are, I mean to answer your question, we are AB testing 711 00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:28,400 like you would not believe. We it was always been a focus, 712 00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:31,760 even when we were small to like we, we hired a kind of a 713 00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:34,840 boutique freelance web developer sheet was fantastic. 714 00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:37,320 And one of the things she introduced us to, and this is 715 00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:39,200 back in 2019. So it's just about, you know, 716 00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:44,000 again, I again, to re say this, I knew nothing walking in. 717 00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:46,240 So she introduced us to the idea of AB testing. 718 00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:48,000 I'm like, what is that? That sounds really interesting 719 00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:50,200 because I'm on here making changes all the time and to the 720 00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:51,960 point, like I think they're good. 721 00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:54,880 I've certainly made mistakes. I've certainly made things that 722 00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:56,640 I thought were good and and actually turned out to. 723 00:30:56,720 --> 00:30:57,840 Be going up. Yeah, yeah. 724 00:30:57,880 --> 00:31:00,720 Like, it looks good, right? You know, like who knows, but 725 00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:02,320 she introduced this to the concept of AB testing. 726 00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:06,800 And since then I personally have been like just mad as it comes 727 00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:10,640 to CRO and AB testing and really focusing on all of those things 728 00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:12,760 on the website. Because to your point, right 729 00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:16,560 there is when you and this is something I say constantly about 730 00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:20,760 advertising because again, the mass volume of conversation 731 00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:24,800 around advertising is it's just as its planet sized compared to 732 00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:27,360 the amount of conversation we're having around general business 733 00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:29,400 optimizations. As advertisers, there's plenty 734 00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:32,040 of people talking about in their own space, but as advertisers, 735 00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:33,600 we're not talking about that sometimes. 736 00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:37,120 And so to the point is like, you can go make the best ad and you 737 00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:39,760 can write the best copy and you can put that in one campaign and 738 00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:44,240 one ad set as of one single ad. And it by itself might do good. 739 00:31:44,360 --> 00:31:47,440 And maybe it's enough, you know, momentum to lift, you know, rice 740 00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:50,800 waters and lift all boats in your that ad set or maybe that 741 00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:53,280 campaign if you're lucky, but it's pretty unlikely it's going 742 00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:54,960 to do anything on the whole account level, right? 743 00:31:55,560 --> 00:31:58,960 Conversely, if you make a good business decision, now that I 744 00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:01,600 phrase it that way, because it can be a new product, it can be, 745 00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:03,240 you know, a difference in the way that we're approaching 746 00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:05,640 brand. It can be CRO decision. 747 00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:10,080 You make one of those, you can lift the relative performance of 748 00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:12,960 all of your creatives, all of your ad sets, all of your 749 00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:16,560 campaigns, all of your whole accounts and all of your 750 00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:20,120 channels all at the same time. And so I focus a lot of my 751 00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:23,160 activity, again as the CMO is we have an advertising team, we 752 00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:25,680 have an acquisition team, we have a retention team. 753 00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:28,320 I focus a lot of my activity on that side of it, which is like, 754 00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:31,720 how can I remove obstacles to raise the water level so that 755 00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:33,760 these guys have more room to run? 756 00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:35,800 Is that you can't do that through the activity of 757 00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:37,440 advertising or even sometimes through the activity of 758 00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:40,200 retention stopping, you know, bad decisions from coming to 759 00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:42,560 fruition or making really good decisions that you know will 760 00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:44,800 align with advertising retention activities. 761 00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:47,640 And I think it's such a beautiful way to look at it. 762 00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:50,360 I, I love the fact that you look at how can I support everybody? 763 00:32:50,360 --> 00:32:53,360 And we, we used to, we used to joke years ago in, in my agency, 764 00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:56,640 like between 1012 years ago, it's like some of these clients, 765 00:32:56,640 --> 00:32:58,240 it's just so hard to sell this product. 766 00:32:58,240 --> 00:33:00,600 It's so dry and boring. And these ones, oh, it's so fun. 767 00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:03,240 And I think now I've matured a little bit and looking back at 768 00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:06,680 those and also look at my client list now all clients have good 769 00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:09,160 products that we can sell. We just need to find the way to 770 00:33:09,160 --> 00:33:11,440 sell them and the way to mark, the way to position them, what 771 00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:13,520 the real value add is to the customer. 772 00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:14,960 And that's the thing that makes the difference. 773 00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:18,720 And I, I, I think certainly some clients like we, we certainly 774 00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:20,840 talk to them and say, like, have you guys got anything? 775 00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:23,360 And they're like, whoa, it's International Men's day today. 776 00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:26,280 And they're like, you just can't just pick something at random. 777 00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:28,800 Like what is it that makes your customers want to convert? 778 00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:30,760 You know, where's the customer feedback survey? 779 00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:34,040 Where's their Microsoft Clarity data to tell us that, you know, 780 00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:36,720 when we moved this on the page or, you know, we had a client 781 00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:38,840 recently and we were looking at the Microsoft Clarity and 782 00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:42,080 everyone was getting halfway down the product page and just 783 00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:45,080 below the bit they stopped at and went back to the top was the 784 00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:46,680 buy the buy one get one free offer. 785 00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:49,760 And we were like, put that at the top of the page, make that 786 00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:52,680 the first thing we did. Conversion almost doubled. 787 00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:53,920 Like it was just shy of doubling. 788 00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:55,440 And it was like such simple things. 789 00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:57,640 And I think you're absolutely right that you make a, a change 790 00:33:57,640 --> 00:33:59,800 to product or something that lifts all of the water. 791 00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:01,520 It's so much better for everybody. 792 00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:03,680 And but what you've just described, and I'm going to 793 00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:05,880 transition this into the final thing I really want to talk 794 00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:08,080 about because I think you've got some really good perspective on 795 00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:09,840 this. And you, you've let go of 796 00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:13,120 control from the days where you came in, you know, wedding 797 00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:16,400 photography just behind you. And I love that you did that. 798 00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:18,760 I've been to so many weddings. I used to DJ at weddings, which 799 00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:20,360 I think I said a few weeks ago, one of the episodes like 800 00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:24,639 weddings are great for a season. And then it's like, oh, now 801 00:34:24,639 --> 00:34:27,120 we're doing this. It's a long day and I hit and 802 00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:28,600 it's weekends as well a lot of the time. 803 00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:31,040 So you just come out of that and you were doing everything you'd 804 00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:33,239 free rein. You know, the website is Mccoy's 805 00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:35,280 baby and McCoy can do it. Everyone's on the website. 806 00:34:35,560 --> 00:34:37,840 You now have a team of people and you've obviously released 807 00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:41,639 your team, possibly agencies, other suppliers to do stuff. 808 00:34:42,639 --> 00:34:44,560 A lot of people listening will be like, I want to control 809 00:34:44,560 --> 00:34:46,400 everything forever. And if they do that, there's 810 00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:48,800 only so much that can happen and it's based in the capacity of 811 00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:51,239 one person. How did you get to where you are 812 00:34:51,239 --> 00:34:52,840 today? How do you release control? 813 00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:56,040 And I guess the caveat question with that as well is, and I'm 814 00:34:56,040 --> 00:34:58,120 assuming this is one of the most important things you've done, if 815 00:34:58,240 --> 00:35:01,800 it's similar to me, is how do you empower people to own stuff, 816 00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:04,680 to really put their heart and soul into it, but also to know 817 00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:06,560 like, what good looks like. Yeah. 818 00:35:06,640 --> 00:35:07,640 That, I mean, that's a great question. 819 00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:09,920 That's really one of like the fundamental questions that I 820 00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:14,280 that businesses need to answer if they are to scale. 821 00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:17,320 Like going from the, the, you know, the small bootstrap, the 822 00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:19,560 start up phase into the much larger business phase. 823 00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:22,920 Like you get to a point where you can't possibly do all of the 824 00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:25,520 work yourself. And so you know, one of the 825 00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:27,440 things we talked about and I have a fantastic team. 826 00:35:28,360 --> 00:35:31,520 One of the things we talked about with our my directors, who 827 00:35:31,520 --> 00:35:34,640 are the heads of each of my individual clusters of 828 00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:36,480 activities. So I have a graphic design with 829 00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:39,520 social media, e-commerce, advertising and software 830 00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:41,120 development now, which I'm really excited about that 831 00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:42,960 department as well. One of the things we talked 832 00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:45,720 about is like limiting beliefs. And the limiting belief is like, 833 00:35:45,720 --> 00:35:47,200 oh, I don't have the permission to change that. 834 00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:51,280 I don't have that permission to like manipulate that which I it, 835 00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:53,800 we all have those. And you know, on one hand, it's 836 00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:55,840 very reasonable, which is like somebody comes in your business 837 00:35:55,840 --> 00:35:58,400 and they're talented, but they, there's things that they will do 838 00:35:58,400 --> 00:35:59,800 and there's things that they won't do based on the 839 00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:01,600 permissions they think that they have available to them. 840 00:36:01,920 --> 00:36:03,960 And so for me, it's trying really hard to work with the 841 00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:06,320 directors to lift their limiting beliefs and be like, you can 842 00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:07,720 change that. You know how to change that. 843 00:36:07,720 --> 00:36:09,080 I don't need to be involved in that decision. 844 00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:11,520 But to answer, I mean, to answer the question more broadly, it's 845 00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:12,920 like, OK, how do we give up control? 846 00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:15,440 You have to build and you have to develop people. 847 00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:19,000 So what what needs to happen in Portland Leather goods today is 848 00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:22,280 more work than I could ever possibly do by myself. 849 00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:26,720 And so when I shift the perspective from I want to do 850 00:36:26,720 --> 00:36:28,120 everything, I want to be in control. 851 00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:31,200 And in a way, when you're sitting, you know, higher on the 852 00:36:31,200 --> 00:36:33,960 organisation chart, you have to understand like you, you are in 853 00:36:33,960 --> 00:36:36,680 still in control, but the way that you're getting that work 854 00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:40,320 done is through somebody else. So you have to recruit amazing 855 00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:42,240 talent and then you have to teach them what the metrics to 856 00:36:42,240 --> 00:36:43,360 success are. And then you have to like 857 00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:45,840 nurture their skills and you have to observe and you have to 858 00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:48,720 measure and you have to realign. And so one of my favourite 859 00:36:48,720 --> 00:36:51,920 quotes in this, I try to use this in my leadership a lot, 860 00:36:51,920 --> 00:36:55,160 which is the difference between a laser that can cut through 861 00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:58,200 steel and A street light is not the output of the bulb. 862 00:36:58,200 --> 00:37:01,040 They have relatively similar voltages or output. 863 00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:03,840 It's the area in which that light is concentrated at. 864 00:37:04,440 --> 00:37:08,000 And so for me, it's running back and forth between 5 directors. 865 00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:10,240 And we got a bunch of new exciting things that we're 866 00:37:10,240 --> 00:37:12,800 working on and working with those team leaders to running 867 00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:16,880 back and forth and trying to focus like a mirror all of their 868 00:37:16,880 --> 00:37:20,800 effort in the exact same place. And you would be surprised you 869 00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:24,040 don't, you probably don't even need to do much more than you're 870 00:37:24,040 --> 00:37:26,920 doing today. You probably have way more 871 00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:29,000 misalignment problems than you might believe. 872 00:37:29,480 --> 00:37:32,720 And so for us, the key to scaling has always been removing 873 00:37:32,720 --> 00:37:36,280 the obstacle to what's next. We are very fortunate because we 874 00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:41,600 have a fantastic product and I have had to try for a very small 875 00:37:41,600 --> 00:37:45,280 number of months to actually honestly generate demand for our 876 00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:47,320 product. We have almost always been an 877 00:37:47,320 --> 00:37:52,520 exclusively the mode of how do we remove limits in production 878 00:37:52,520 --> 00:37:53,880 so that we get more products to sell. 879 00:37:54,160 --> 00:37:55,760 But demand's been really easy for us. 880 00:37:56,400 --> 00:38:00,120 So going from, as you mentioned, being the person to now my team, 881 00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:02,800 I think on the marketing team specifically is about 24 people 882 00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:04,080 inside of those different departments. 883 00:38:04,480 --> 00:38:06,880 We have agencies very little. We tend to, you know, keep 884 00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:09,040 things close to the chest for that sake of alignment to make 885 00:38:09,040 --> 00:38:10,800 sure that we're all again firing at the same direction. 886 00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:12,840 It's harder when you have a lot of agencies, especially if 887 00:38:12,840 --> 00:38:15,800 they're warring with each other. But it's running around and 888 00:38:15,800 --> 00:38:17,400 it's, it's getting people aligned. 889 00:38:17,720 --> 00:38:21,520 And again, the metric of success for me is like, I know I can't 890 00:38:21,520 --> 00:38:24,000 do this work. So the way I approach problems 891 00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:28,080 is not, or with any new, new thing I need to tackle, it's 892 00:38:28,080 --> 00:38:31,840 like, how do I accomplish X? The method for me is pretty 893 00:38:31,840 --> 00:38:33,200 simple. I'm going to go find somebody 894 00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:34,920 who knows how to do it very, very well. 895 00:38:35,160 --> 00:38:36,320 I'm going to bring them into my team. 896 00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:38,720 I'm going to put them under some great leaders and then I'm going 897 00:38:38,720 --> 00:38:40,480 to line them at the target that I need to shoot them at. 898 00:38:40,760 --> 00:38:43,880 It's not, it's no longer about, you know, McCoy or Matt or any 899 00:38:43,880 --> 00:38:47,760 of these, you know, individual people focusing on the problem 900 00:38:47,760 --> 00:38:50,160 themselves and trying to just put their nose down and grind 901 00:38:50,160 --> 00:38:52,200 it. It's get great talent, assemble 902 00:38:52,200 --> 00:38:54,320 A-Team and align them at the goal that you actually want to, 903 00:38:54,320 --> 00:38:56,240 you know, shoot at. And so it's gone. 904 00:38:56,240 --> 00:38:59,320 It's, it's come a long way for in the past few years, 905 00:38:59,320 --> 00:39:02,080 especially in the past two years where we really built out our 906 00:39:02,080 --> 00:39:04,520 proper middle management suite, which is our director level. 907 00:39:04,880 --> 00:39:07,840 And I'm, I'm excited about what all the new challenges we're 908 00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:09,200 about to tackle in the upcoming year. 909 00:39:09,200 --> 00:39:10,800 So. I think, I mean, it's such a 910 00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:13,200 good answer and the, the thing you reminded me of when you said 911 00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:16,360 about that finding someone and going, I know I can't do this. 912 00:39:16,360 --> 00:39:19,480 Let's get someone in who can. It reminds me of I was reading a 913 00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:23,000 book by an old military general, a British military general. 914 00:39:23,240 --> 00:39:25,200 And he said that one of the big things when they launched the 915 00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:28,560 SAS in during the war, during the World War, was that he, they 916 00:39:28,560 --> 00:39:31,440 actually said like we we're going to stop telling our 917 00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:33,680 soldiers like do this, then this, then this and this. 918 00:39:33,880 --> 00:39:37,600 They just said in that compound over there are five of our 919 00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:39,480 soldiers and they're currently taken hostage. 920 00:39:39,960 --> 00:39:41,280 Go and get them back and tell us what you need. 921 00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:44,440 And they'd go right, I need a helicopter, a tank and, or 922 00:39:44,440 --> 00:39:47,480 actually we just need a load of camouflage gear and give us 2, 923 00:39:47,480 --> 00:39:50,280 give us a week and we'll monitor it for six days and we'll go in 924 00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:52,280 on the 7th day. Just that's what we're going to 925 00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:53,520 do. And they went all right, that 926 00:39:53,520 --> 00:39:55,160 achieves my goal. And I think you're absolutely 927 00:39:55,160 --> 00:39:56,800 right. And I, I've certainly had it 928 00:39:56,800 --> 00:39:58,680 before and I've, I've, you know, hired quite a few people, the 929 00:39:58,680 --> 00:39:59,760 whole team in them behind us soon. 930 00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:02,880 One of the biggest challenges I've found with, with hiring, 931 00:40:03,160 --> 00:40:05,720 when you select hiring great talent and finding the right 932 00:40:05,720 --> 00:40:08,000 people. I've definitely learnt and seen 933 00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:09,880 people that haven't worked out here and gone somewhere. 934 00:40:09,960 --> 00:40:11,760 Where I've been really successful, I've learned it's 935 00:40:11,760 --> 00:40:13,720 never like it's never the wrong person, it's the right person 936 00:40:13,720 --> 00:40:15,040 for us. And that's, I think that's a 937 00:40:15,040 --> 00:40:18,040 really key distinction of, and sometimes it is just yourself 938 00:40:18,040 --> 00:40:19,720 you go, who works well with McCoy? 939 00:40:19,720 --> 00:40:21,920 What, what are the personalities here do I like and what do I not 940 00:40:21,920 --> 00:40:23,320 like? Therefore, what do I need to do 941 00:40:23,320 --> 00:40:25,920 in my interview process to, to weed out the ones that it won't 942 00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:28,160 work for them here because I'm going to be a problem to them as 943 00:40:28,160 --> 00:40:29,640 much as they're going to be a problem to me. 944 00:40:29,640 --> 00:40:31,840 But I think giving people that goal and saying, look, look, 945 00:40:31,840 --> 00:40:35,040 guys, this statistic here, this, it's not high enough and I'm 946 00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:37,000 tasking you three with improving it. 947 00:40:37,360 --> 00:40:38,760 So firstly, I'll give you 24 hours. 948 00:40:38,760 --> 00:40:41,280 Come back to me and tell me what's wrong and tell me what 949 00:40:41,280 --> 00:40:43,120 you need. What do you need from me to make 950 00:40:43,120 --> 00:40:45,280 that better? And if you think it's the wrong 951 00:40:45,280 --> 00:40:47,480 statistic or it's not going to achieve the total company goal 952 00:40:47,480 --> 00:40:49,560 that you're, as you say, you're also aware of, everyone knows 953 00:40:49,560 --> 00:40:50,600 where we're trying to go with this thing. 954 00:40:50,840 --> 00:40:53,080 Then come back and tell me that we're focusing on the wrong 955 00:40:53,080 --> 00:40:54,400 thing. And now these people, they're 956 00:40:54,400 --> 00:40:56,120 empowered. They're like, we can, it's 957 00:40:56,120 --> 00:40:58,560 almost exciting and you can get creative and all that stuff we 958 00:40:58,560 --> 00:41:00,960 spoke about earlier about changing the website, running AV 959 00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:03,640 tests all starts to create creative hypotheses. 960 00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:06,120 So if you guys say actually our return rates are way too high, 961 00:41:06,120 --> 00:41:09,000 too many customers are sending products back, I'm tasking you 962 00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:12,120 or you guys with fixing that. Go and find out what we need to 963 00:41:12,120 --> 00:41:14,480 know and say, do you know what the number one return reason is 964 00:41:14,480 --> 00:41:15,480 this? And we found that from the 965 00:41:15,480 --> 00:41:18,040 customer service team or talking to customers that return stuff. 966 00:41:18,120 --> 00:41:19,960 So we're just going to change the web copy to say this and 967 00:41:19,960 --> 00:41:22,200 we'll see what happens. And it's like, fantastic, that's 968 00:41:22,200 --> 00:41:24,640 a great output. But if you said to them, talk to 969 00:41:24,640 --> 00:41:27,320 customers, then do this and just they would miss opportunities in 970 00:41:27,320 --> 00:41:28,640 that process, they'd come out and go. 971 00:41:28,880 --> 00:41:30,960 Actually, what you were saying, McCoy, was not what we need to 972 00:41:30,960 --> 00:41:32,920 do to fix the problem at all. The problem's right or actually 973 00:41:32,920 --> 00:41:34,960 the problem's slightly bigger or smaller or different to what you 974 00:41:34,960 --> 00:41:37,160 think it is. This is the solution we think we 975 00:41:37,160 --> 00:41:38,720 need to go after. If it doesn't work, we'll find 976 00:41:38,720 --> 00:41:40,120 another one. And it's it's a much more 977 00:41:40,120 --> 00:41:41,760 creative way of working at that empowerment I. 978 00:41:41,840 --> 00:41:44,200 Usually like you can, you can kind of evaluate that through 979 00:41:44,200 --> 00:41:48,160 like the, it called the how versus the what, right? 980 00:41:48,160 --> 00:41:50,640 So when you like, for instance, you give somebody that top level 981 00:41:50,640 --> 00:41:53,680 task, which is just like, I want you to, for in the military 982 00:41:53,680 --> 00:41:55,200 example, go rescue those hostages. 983 00:41:55,200 --> 00:41:57,920 Or for us, let's say like, let's start at the, the largest goal 984 00:41:57,920 --> 00:41:59,960 that the marketing team is tasked with, which is just to 985 00:41:59,960 --> 00:42:03,960 say, make me a, give me $100 million worth of revenue at the 986 00:42:03,960 --> 00:42:06,520 door. And then I go, OK, sounds good, 987 00:42:06,560 --> 00:42:09,480 like, and then I break that down into what needs to happen to do 988 00:42:09,480 --> 00:42:11,280 that. But I find when you're working 989 00:42:11,280 --> 00:42:13,520 with whether it's a leader or you're, it's an individual 990 00:42:13,520 --> 00:42:17,720 contributor on a team, if you start hearing questions like, or 991 00:42:17,720 --> 00:42:19,440 to me or what do you want me to do? 992 00:42:19,440 --> 00:42:22,200 I'm butchered that. So it's to say what, what do you 993 00:42:22,200 --> 00:42:23,680 want me to do? I want you to generate $100 994 00:42:23,680 --> 00:42:25,320 million worth of revenue for the business. 995 00:42:25,320 --> 00:42:27,560 If you start getting a lot of like, how do I do that 996 00:42:27,560 --> 00:42:28,920 questions. Well, how do I do that? 997 00:42:28,920 --> 00:42:30,680 How do I do that? And then you find yourself in 998 00:42:30,680 --> 00:42:33,600 the incrementalism of like Step 1, you know, turn on your 999 00:42:33,600 --> 00:42:35,520 computer, Step 2, load up Facebook. 1000 00:42:35,520 --> 00:42:37,520 Step 3, find something clever to sell, right. 1001 00:42:37,920 --> 00:42:40,080 If you find that you're, you're constantly answering like how do 1002 00:42:40,080 --> 00:42:41,520 I do that questions with your team. 1003 00:42:42,320 --> 00:42:45,720 It's a good, it's a good point of reflection and it's not 1004 00:42:45,800 --> 00:42:48,280 always on them. Sometimes it's on you as the 1005 00:42:48,280 --> 00:42:50,600 leader. 1 you might not have the right people in the right seat. 1006 00:42:50,920 --> 00:42:54,520 2, you might not have grown and nurtured them in advance of 1007 00:42:54,520 --> 00:42:57,080 where they need to be at the point where you come to a new 1008 00:42:57,080 --> 00:43:00,320 Inflexion point and it's time to change our objectives or three, 1009 00:43:00,320 --> 00:43:03,200 like you just haven't built the correct system right? 1010 00:43:03,200 --> 00:43:06,760 So it's, it's you don't, you shouldn't expect everyone to 1011 00:43:06,760 --> 00:43:09,120 come into your business and at every level and an individual 1012 00:43:09,120 --> 00:43:10,960 contributor level all the way to your executives to be 1013 00:43:11,160 --> 00:43:14,440 entrepreneurial geniuses. There is some work on behalf of 1014 00:43:14,440 --> 00:43:16,240 the leadership team, whether that's you all the way up to the 1015 00:43:16,240 --> 00:43:19,640 executive team to like build a system that makes sense, that 1016 00:43:19,640 --> 00:43:23,800 makes success likely as opposed to, you know, breaking down and 1017 00:43:23,800 --> 00:43:25,240 you get everyone. Because I, I'm guilt. 1018 00:43:25,240 --> 00:43:27,600 I do the same thing too. I, I'm an executive and I still 1019 00:43:27,600 --> 00:43:29,440 end up having to go, how do I do this? 1020 00:43:29,440 --> 00:43:32,240 And that's not in a comfortable position for anyone to operate 1021 00:43:32,240 --> 00:43:34,760 in you much. You're much better off when you 1022 00:43:34,760 --> 00:43:36,760 can give direction or you can set goals and you have the 1023 00:43:36,760 --> 00:43:39,360 correct structure and team where you say they say, just what do 1024 00:43:39,360 --> 00:43:40,400 you want me to do? Oh, you can. 1025 00:43:40,400 --> 00:43:42,400 You want me to generate $100 million worth of revenue? 1026 00:43:42,400 --> 00:43:43,880 I know how to do that. I know how to break that into 1027 00:43:43,880 --> 00:43:48,000 the millions and millions of micro actions of sending emails 1028 00:43:48,000 --> 00:43:50,360 and running ads and making sure the website looks good and 1029 00:43:50,360 --> 00:43:52,400 making sure that everything is hitting, you know, the inventory 1030 00:43:52,640 --> 00:43:54,680 at the correct time in order to make that happen. 1031 00:43:55,680 --> 00:43:56,840 Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. 1032 00:43:57,120 --> 00:43:59,760 And yeah, I love what you say to you about the if you suddenly 1033 00:43:59,760 --> 00:44:01,880 find yourself going, how do I do this? 1034 00:44:02,280 --> 00:44:04,160 I, I guess what I mean, one thing we do ask people in 1035 00:44:04,160 --> 00:44:07,000 interviews now and we don't ask them this, but we we ask a set 1036 00:44:07,000 --> 00:44:09,080 of questions where we want to hear the answer. 1037 00:44:09,360 --> 00:44:12,520 I would work it out. I'd go on Google and I'd search 1038 00:44:12,520 --> 00:44:15,200 stuff and I would work it out because that's part of the 1039 00:44:15,200 --> 00:44:16,920 empowerment. I think what what you don't want 1040 00:44:16,920 --> 00:44:19,920 is someone coming back, going here is the bulletproof plan to 1041 00:44:19,920 --> 00:44:22,440 make $100 million, but I don't know how to do any of it. 1042 00:44:23,160 --> 00:44:25,680 It's like, well. There's a pointless plan, isn't 1043 00:44:25,680 --> 00:44:28,120 it like, OK, how do we get to the, how do we get to the first 1044 00:44:28,120 --> 00:44:30,920 dollar and then we'll work on 10, then 100, then 1000. 1045 00:44:31,160 --> 00:44:33,200 You know, you can always sort of break say to people, can you 1046 00:44:33,200 --> 00:44:35,440 break it down then into those little steps and we'll see where 1047 00:44:35,440 --> 00:44:36,920 we get to. But goes back to what you were 1048 00:44:36,920 --> 00:44:39,360 saying about limiting beliefs, I think about making sure everyone 1049 00:44:39,360 --> 00:44:41,760 believes like we can actually achieve anything here. 1050 00:44:41,920 --> 00:44:44,160 We just need to set out and get on with it and actually start 1051 00:44:44,160 --> 00:44:45,520 making some, making some mistakes. 1052 00:44:45,840 --> 00:44:47,480 You know, we'll learn from those mistakes as we go. 1053 00:44:48,120 --> 00:44:51,440 Yeah, appointment an important form frame of reference for us 1054 00:44:51,440 --> 00:44:54,440 is like we we went through a season where we were doubling in 1055 00:44:54,560 --> 00:44:58,080 doubling revenue every year. And so like if we if we today 1056 00:44:58,080 --> 00:45:01,000 look at our goals for two years from now and we say OK, like we 1057 00:45:01,000 --> 00:45:02,360 want to be at X amount of revenue. 1058 00:45:02,360 --> 00:45:05,360 And then you start to imagine that company in your head that 1059 00:45:05,480 --> 00:45:07,920 what, what is it going to take to get to this point. 1060 00:45:08,160 --> 00:45:10,520 And as far as you can stretch your imagination to the future, 1061 00:45:10,520 --> 00:45:13,480 the more beneficial be for you, especially as a leader, but not 1062 00:45:13,480 --> 00:45:15,560 only that, as a, as a, as a worker, as a professional 1063 00:45:15,560 --> 00:45:17,040 trying, you know, to move up in your career. 1064 00:45:17,400 --> 00:45:19,480 And if you look ahead and you're like, let's say there's a huge 1065 00:45:19,480 --> 00:45:22,160 Inflexion point in the next two years where you're like, I am, 1066 00:45:22,280 --> 00:45:24,600 I'm doing currently doing $10 million in my business and I 1067 00:45:24,600 --> 00:45:26,240 want to do $100 million in revenue. 1068 00:45:26,600 --> 00:45:28,680 And this is the title or this is the position or the 1069 00:45:28,680 --> 00:45:32,880 responsibility I hold. Could I go today interview for 1070 00:45:32,880 --> 00:45:35,560 the same position at a $100 million company? 1071 00:45:36,040 --> 00:45:39,480 And if the answer is no, I don't think that I'm qualified, then 1072 00:45:39,480 --> 00:45:42,680 you have you've measured your runway and you get to work at 1073 00:45:42,680 --> 00:45:45,840 that figurative person being that figurative person every 1074 00:45:45,840 --> 00:45:47,440 single day until you hit that point. 1075 00:45:47,720 --> 00:45:49,520 And the key is to just constantly be setting these 1076 00:45:49,600 --> 00:45:53,280 goals in the future. So that one day, worst thing, 1077 00:45:53,280 --> 00:45:55,480 worse yet would be as if you don't grow. 1078 00:45:55,560 --> 00:45:58,520 And we're, you know, collectively as individuals and 1079 00:45:58,520 --> 00:46:01,360 as leaders, the reason why the company can't grow because we're 1080 00:46:01,360 --> 00:46:04,440 not the people who who have the skills and the ability to make 1081 00:46:04,440 --> 00:46:05,720 it grow. And that's a real tragedy. 1082 00:46:05,920 --> 00:46:07,760 So I'm constantly trying to think in advance and go like, 1083 00:46:08,000 --> 00:46:10,400 OK, if we're going to hit this amount of revenue and let's say 1084 00:46:10,400 --> 00:46:13,120 that we want our company to be worth this relative, you know, 1085 00:46:13,280 --> 00:46:16,560 speculative valuation about what does the CMO of that company 1086 00:46:16,560 --> 00:46:18,080 look like? Am I that person today? 1087 00:46:18,080 --> 00:46:20,840 And the answer is no. And so every day I'm trying to 1088 00:46:20,840 --> 00:46:23,400 grow myself and grow my team and grow the people who work for us 1089 00:46:23,600 --> 00:46:26,160 into those people so that one of the opportunities doesn't pass 1090 00:46:26,160 --> 00:46:28,200 me or them by. But worse yet that I'm not the 1091 00:46:28,200 --> 00:46:30,240 reason or the catalyst that we're holding the company back 1092 00:46:30,240 --> 00:46:31,920 because we don't actually have the skills to go where we're 1093 00:46:31,920 --> 00:46:33,520 going. So I use that frame of reference 1094 00:46:33,560 --> 00:46:35,240 quite a bit. Yeah, yeah. 1095 00:46:35,360 --> 00:46:37,400 And I obviously love that. And I think certainly looking 1096 00:46:37,400 --> 00:46:40,160 back at our growth as a business, I used to sit there 1097 00:46:40,160 --> 00:46:42,440 and go like, oh, I'm going to make an agency of like 1000 1098 00:46:42,440 --> 00:46:45,080 people, let's go for it. And I had that realisation about 1099 00:46:45,080 --> 00:46:47,720 seven or eight years ago where I sat there and went 1000 staff. 1100 00:46:48,000 --> 00:46:49,240 What a nightmare. What? 1101 00:46:50,120 --> 00:46:51,920 Absolutely. I'm not looking after all of 1102 00:46:51,920 --> 00:46:54,160 those guys. And, and, but then it was like, 1103 00:46:54,160 --> 00:46:56,280 OK, if I had 10 people, what would I need to do? 1104 00:46:56,320 --> 00:46:57,840 Right? Well, let's get to 10 first. 1105 00:46:57,840 --> 00:47:00,560 And I need to actually learn a lot, change a lot, do a lot. 1106 00:47:00,560 --> 00:47:02,280 And I think it's a really important path as well. 1107 00:47:02,280 --> 00:47:04,960 And certainly in e-commerce. And I, I've probably mentioned 1108 00:47:04,960 --> 00:47:06,800 this before for people that listen all the time, but I used 1109 00:47:06,800 --> 00:47:08,960 to run a bamboo sunglasses business on Shopify. 1110 00:47:09,360 --> 00:47:12,280 And one of the reasons I shut that down is I did my sums and 1111 00:47:12,280 --> 00:47:16,600 said, OK, for me to take 50,000 lbs or dollars in a single year 1112 00:47:16,600 --> 00:47:19,680 from this business, how many units per day do we need to sell 1113 00:47:19,840 --> 00:47:23,000 on our current model and what changes can we make to get 1114 00:47:23,000 --> 00:47:24,640 there? And it was crazy the amount of 1115 00:47:24,640 --> 00:47:27,080 work I would need to do. And I thought, and what do I 1116 00:47:27,080 --> 00:47:30,200 need to do to make a £50,000 more in my agency? 1117 00:47:30,560 --> 00:47:33,160 Two or three new clients, right? Let's go and get two or three 1118 00:47:33,160 --> 00:47:35,080 new clients. It was, it was that kind of, it 1119 00:47:35,080 --> 00:47:37,000 wasn't just about the money, but it was the actually there's a 1120 00:47:37,000 --> 00:47:38,760 hell of a lot of work that's going to be required here. 1121 00:47:39,920 --> 00:47:41,440 But look, McCoy, I've just seen the time. 1122 00:47:41,440 --> 00:47:42,760 We'll draw things down to a close. 1123 00:47:42,760 --> 00:47:44,520 But thank you so much for joining us today. 1124 00:47:44,520 --> 00:47:46,200 It's great to have in the show and such a pleasure to have you 1125 00:47:46,200 --> 00:47:47,960 back. Nick, it's been great talking to 1126 00:47:47,960 --> 00:47:48,920 you. I really appreciate it. 1127 00:47:49,480 --> 00:47:50,520 Hopefully we'll see you again soon. 1128 00:47:50,880 --> 00:47:52,200 Great stuff. Well, thanks so much for joining 1129 00:47:52,200 --> 00:47:53,800 us and for everyone listening at home. 1130 00:47:53,800 --> 00:47:54,960 Thank you so much for tuning in, guys. 1131 00:47:54,960 --> 00:47:56,840 If you haven't already, hit the subscribe button, check out the 1132 00:47:56,840 --> 00:47:59,600 growth hub, go to wwspodcast.com, check out the 1133 00:47:59,600 --> 00:48:01,200 growth hub, go join it. We'll let you in as soon as 1134 00:48:01,200 --> 00:48:02,800 possible. There is a waiting list which is 1135 00:48:02,800 --> 00:48:04,840 nearly finished and it keeps growing every time we release 1136 00:48:04,840 --> 00:48:06,840 another episode of the podcast. So hope to see you guys in 1137 00:48:06,840 --> 00:48:07,680 there. Hope to see you again next 1138 00:48:07,680 --> 00:48:09,000 Friday when we post our next episode. 1139 00:48:09,080 --> 00:48:10,920 Thanks for tuning in. Do you want to up your 1140 00:48:10,920 --> 00:48:13,160 influencer marketing game? Do you want to meet more 1141 00:48:13,160 --> 00:48:15,040 influencers, have a better working relationship with 1142 00:48:15,040 --> 00:48:16,560 influencers? You might even be struggling to 1143 00:48:16,560 --> 00:48:18,480 talk to them in the first place or you can get them to talk 1144 00:48:18,480 --> 00:48:21,280 about your product and post to their audiences without winning. 1145 00:48:21,280 --> 00:48:24,080 With Shopify, we have teamed up with Affluencer which is an app 1146 00:48:24,080 --> 00:48:27,240 you can install on Shopify and it comes with a 30 day trial and 1147 00:48:27,240 --> 00:48:29,880 even in those first 30 days you can meet a load of influencers 1148 00:48:30,080 --> 00:48:31,920 and start promoting your product. 1149 00:48:32,080 --> 00:48:34,040 So there's no excuse. Go and install the app, start 1150 00:48:34,040 --> 00:48:36,520 the 30 day trial and give it a go yourself and see how you get 1151 00:48:36,520 --> 00:48:36,600 on.