Today on the Winning with Shopify podcast, we do them
based on what we think and we do them based on gut feel, not
based on data. And that, I think, is one of the
biggest crimes people commit. But it's not always that simple.
What's the point? Like, I want to thank them for
their review because I know what it's like on the other side.
Would you say that actually AI is enabling humans to do their
jobs better, or is actually it starting to replace humans?
Or is it a murky mix of the two? Those are my favorite projects
where I get to sink my teeth into it and say, all right,
we've got a. Problem to solve every day, make
tons of mistakes, don't. We.
All as a new seller myself or as in or the person who's going to
sell new products for the for the first time.
I already know this guy succeed very early.
It means he's doing something very good.
The demand is there, the product is there, right?
So I already know the success rate is higher.
Now I I second things. I recognize an opportunity where
I can offer this product in bundles or I can add something
else to the product. Maybe I can improve a feature.
Maybe I just recognize that the SCO can be done much better.
Yeah, yeah, I I love that. And it's when we look at
competitors, the, the thing that I, I find mildly frustrating, I
will say, so any existing clients listening, like, please
don't think I'm moaning here, but we make a lot of decisions
and I'm on a war against making decisions this way.
We do them based on what we think and we do them based on
gut feel, not based on data. And that, I think is one of the
biggest crimes people commit. Come back to your murder scene.
The biggest crimes people commit on their own brand is to say,
we're going to launch a red one. This product so popular, this
blue product, we're going to launch a red one, let's do it.
And then it flops. And because you've not looked
properly at the data, as you say, to understand what is the
best color to be offering. Well, why don't you actually do
a sample run or use data like you've got to say, well,
actually on eBay at the moment and in the Shopify marketplaces,
there are 10,000 blue ones being sold, 40,000 yellow ones and no
red ones. And we're thinking of selling a
red one. Well, like you're trying to sell
one that nobody wants to buy at the moment.
So why don't you? I guess it's two sides to this,
isn't it? One is jump on the bandwagon and
say popular product, let's offer the same thing, sell the same
thing, offer our own variation on this.
The other one that sprung to mind when you were explaining
that that new seller that sold 10,000 units, I was thinking
that actually, if you kept an eye on how much your competitors
sold out on certain products and, and I know a way to do this
off the back of Shopify and it'll be to use their shopping
fee. I just want to take a moment out
today's show to tell you about sales tax, which you probably
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Back to the show, every Shopify store has a shopping fee that
comes out to Google. So if you check those every
morning and set up some sort of alert to go my competitors
product here has gone out of stock since yesterday.
You could use your data to go it's gone out of stock and tons
of them are selling on the marketplaces and eBay right now.
Therefore, we've got some of those we need to e-mail our
customers about them, put it on our homepage, push it in our
marketing because we're not pushing it right now, but we
know someone else is selling out of it.
As much as, as you say, the devil's in the detail of looking
at these products are doing well and we're pushing all this stuff
over here. I, I so often see it with brands
as well where you've got like 10 kind of flagship products and
two of them sell really well. The other rate you're trying to
push because you accidentally ordered too many.
And I think you again using the data to avoid things like that
happening. Is is so important, isn't it?
Of course, and this and what you just say like this is like the
way you explain it. This is how every brand owner
should play your because imagine people are going investing
thousands of dollars on stock, building a website, building a
brand, social channels. It's you should use all set of
different analytic tools and combine the data together.
And we have few unique use cases of sellers are doing it and
they're extremely well. They use, you know, like you
say, they come from U world, Google shopping, Google, Google
Edwards and all these kind of things, bringing traffic data,
but then combining it with real demand and real sales.
And then it works both for EDS and for SEO.
Why? Because suddenly it's not just
this, this search term have 50,000 surges every month is
this search that maybe have just 5000 surges every month.
But the conversion rate and the sales that this search term
actually bring on Shopify and on eBay, which by the way, eBay in
this game terms of SEO much more powerful because it's a surge
engine. Yep.
It's it's amazing conversion rate.
So now I actually should go and spend on this keyword much more
money because the conversion rate on this keyword is much
powerful. But obviously, I mean, sales tax
as APPC guy, I've spent so much time dealing with it.
Google Merchant Centre needs to know all the different taxes
trying to get it right. And then Google goes, no, when I
had this product to cart and I get into check out, it's, you
know, like it's different and the tax isn't the same as what
you've told me. So I'm going to disapprove all
your ads. It's something that's always
affected the, the, the work that we do, especially again, so it
does relate some of the fun stuff.
What's the first thing Shopify store owners should really be
thinking about cleaning up in their Shopify stores when it
comes to sales tax, especially across certainly across the US?
Yeah, Yeah. I think the the biggest thing I
always tell people to start out is just first understanding
where you actually have what's called in the US Nexus.
So, so tax Cloud, we primarily service businesses that are
based in the US, So I'll give that perspective.
But I think this is applicable to wherever you're selling
today. And in the US in particular, we
actually have the challenge where every state across the
country has their own tax laws, their own tax rules, and
different requirements that tell you whether or not you actually
have tax obligation in that state.
And so this whole idea of understanding where you actually
have met the threshold in that state is your first starting
point. There's an important
consideration when it comes to Nexus.
There's this idea of physical Nexus, and there's an idea of
economic Nexus. When you're talking about
physical, as you may expect, it's based on where you're
actually physically located, but it's not always that simple.
If you happen to have employees in different states or different
areas, that can also trigger physical Nexus in that state.
Or if you have a warehouse where you're storing product,
depending on the state, that could also trigger physical
Nexus as well. So that's, there's a lot to
think about there. And so you start with physical
understanding that. And typically if you're a small
and you're just starting out, you'll know the taxes in your
state, that's where you have physical Nexus.
So get registered and start collecting there.
The others that economic, typically it's based on number
of transactions or total revenue and that will give you a sense
of where you're at today, not to pitch Tax Cloud too early in the
conversation here. So whether you use Tax Cloud or
any other tool, generally any sales tax solution is going to
offer a free plan where you can connect your Shopify store and
get a very quick view of your economic Nexus.
So we always recommend starting there.
Again, Tax Cloud's great for it, but there's other tools you can
use as well. Connect your store, get your
orders in there and we'll tell you where you have Nexus today.
I can also speak to the the one other thing I could talk to is
the fact that some orders you deal with some exemptions.
The if, if you're selling different products, a lot of
people don't know that certain products are taxable and certain
aren't. This is where it starts to get
really tricky as well. So that's another thing to think
about as well. Birth where you have Nexus.
Also, depending on the sort of products you sell, do you
actually have to collect taxes on its products?
And there's a lot of interesting rules that you'll have to think
about when it comes to certain product lines.
Yeah, yeah. Now you've just bought back a
tiny bit of PTSD in my head of when I was in San Francisco and
I went into a cafe and compared to the coffee price in the US,
compared to the UKI went in and thought that's quite an
expensive coffee price. And they had a coffee called the
Gibraltar Coffee. I thought, oh great, this little
English town in Spain, which is English, UK British, sorry, in
the UK from the UK. So I went in and ordered that
and I had a minor heart attack going, oh, it's only like half a
dollar or a dollar more expensive than the UK.
It's a bit pricey. And then they added the state
tax, the federal tax. And then this little lady at the
till was looking at me with a big smile.
And I looked down at the screen on the till and it said like
what tip would you like to give and look?
And it just a minor heart attack of thinking I've paid nearly
$10.00 for a coffee. And when I told an American
friend of mine out there, they said $10.
Where'd you get that from? That sounds really, really
cheap. I was like, are you crazy?
Like like even with the pound to dollar ratio as it was back
then. So I think my, my point being,
which I think is a really good reason that you should, you guys
should definitely investigate something like tax cloud rather
than which is the next note on my list.
Doing it manually is I think you've just described really
well Ryan and, and done it in a really very, actually quite
simple kind of broken down way of like it's really flipping
complicated. And I think I, I joked earlier
about my first VAT return in my business, it, it really scared
me because it was like, I don't, I haven't even looked at VAT.
I've, I've been focused on how do I get enough revenue through
the door that I can survive at night and buy food and, you
know, have a roof over my head and this kind of thing which we
all go through and we set up a business.
So actually getting the tax wrong is like, just seems like
one of the most awful byproducts that you could end up going,
right? We've just broken even.
But actually we've made a loss, like I say, because of the tax.
So it's, it's so important, isn't it, to get a system that
will make it easy and actually look into some of those things
that you've just explained to us about the Nexus Plus also like
some things are exempt, which if something is exempt and you're
selling it, guys, that's every reason you should know about
that thing for sure. Totally, totally, yeah.
And that's a big one like it, it, it's not always really
simple for for businesses either.
Like we know a lot of Shopify stores might fall into the broad
category of selling clothing, right?
A clothing and apparel well within that.
In some states, if it's athletic clothing or shoe, athletic shoes
where kids might be using it, those could be exempt because
certain states have those or in other states they may not be,
right. Food is another great example.
You mentioned coffee, but there's some states where I
think in California there's a that you have to pay taxes on
candy, whereas in Texas you may not, you know, so it's it's all
this very intricate stuff that you can think about.
You can kind of manually track that yourself.
But then there are tools like tax code where we use taxability
codes that we kind of have broad taxability codes that we kind of
help map products to. And typically, you know, we can
help handle a lot of that for you.
So basically we're just trying to make sure any of this sort of
stuff that you don't have to think about it.
We can just help on that as well.
But as you're starting out, definitely only something to be
thinking about. Do I have exempt products?
In addition to understanding your Nexus for sure how?
Let's start off with like how AI, right?
How is it transforming customer service for businesses?
Like what are some of the fundamental things that's
changing apart from, you know, you might, you might have some
of the obvious bits, but what are the less obvious things than
just saving time, saving money, less humans on the ground.
Yeah, I think a big thing that I see from larger businesses, at
least this is what they claim. It has nothing to do with saving
money, nothing to do with alleviating workload on agents.
And it's all about speed and offering a level of support that
they otherwise couldn't. So I think that's a big thing is
just the, the pace at which support operations are working
at now. And they've, you know, we've
kind of shifted from using automations think like chat
bots, whereas really our expectation was just that
they're going to help us sort out the volume, right?
Things like a main menu, they take everyone in and then they
help compartmentalize all these requests so that we can work
through them faster. And now we're way beyond just
sorting and organizing these requests so that humans can
answer them. We're, we are answering them,
right? We're trying to resolve tickets
before they become tickets in the 1st place.
So, yeah, maybe that's the more obvious the Level 0, but I think
something maybe less talked about, it's just the general
speed and customer expectations that go with that.
Which I think is amazing because speed is not what I thought you
were going to say, but I think it's such a valid point.
It's such a logical point when you think about it.
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That code again, winning. Back to the episode.
So I mean, we're kind of hinting at this anyway.
Would you say that actually AI is enabling humans to do their
jobs better, or is actually it starting to replace humans?
Or is it a murky mix of the two? I would say it's a non murky mix
of the two, like it's and and yeah, I think I work in sales so
I need to know my audience most of the time.
And a lot of times you might have customer support directors
and things like that where they don't want to hear anything
about replacing human agents, right.
But then we might talk to. The finance they have.
Finance or even like these bigger organizations, they have
teams that are like director of process improvement.
And so look, that's all they want to talk about is how can we
improve process. And if that's replacing people,
that just means we're going to use those people to do something
more valuable. It doesn't mean we're just going
and sweeping through the organization and firing
everyone, right? But I think that, yeah, as far
as helping human agents, we think about things like Copilot
where it's the AI's already tapped into the conversation and
I'm not having the AI take over the conversation entirely.
But there are definitely instances where I can say, oh,
this is what the AI would have said to this question that the
customer just asked me. I could sit here and retype this
whole thing, or I could just edit or send what the AI has
already typed. So in many ways, speed, like
it's helping the agents work faster, it's helping the agents
avoid those questions that make their eyes roll.
You know, and when you're dealing, when you're a live
agent and you're handling, you know, maybe 100 chats, 50 plus
chats a day, you'd have plenty of those eye roll moments.
It's those questions that are on the website.
Like there are things that are on the homepage that visitors
will ask your live agents. So I think in that respect, we
clean that up. It is just completely false
though to say that like AI is not taking anyone's job and this
isn't just in the respective support, right?
If if I have a team of 100 people with 0 automation in
place and in a matter of 30 to 60 days I can have 50% of all of
our previous chats resolved in a couple of, you know, back and
forth messages with the AII need my human agents who were
responsible for that 50%. I need to give them something
else. So it's, yeah, not that they're
disappearing, but like Tedio went through this, we went
through this ourselves. We didn't used to have AI
support in our chat. We have full live team of human
agents and we still do. But those live agents are not
working on level 0. They're working on level 1,
Level 2. They're working on multi day
tickets that require external teams from the support team to
help with that kind of stuff. So everything's shifting up.
I mean, you see this in coding, you see this everywhere.
Say apps, I know from experience if I start deleting apps and
depending on which ones I delete, SEO starts going up
because and our rankings go up and traffic increases because of
the page, page speed and page load and that sort of thing.
Give us an overview then to how you guys, because you mentioned
kind of that's one of the things you would advise people on the
shop, how rebel cheese in your role.
Have you actually attacked some of the page speed problems, some
of the functionality problems? You mentioned you listened to
podcasts, but what have been some of the outputs that you
guys have been like? Have you developed your own code
for things? Are you using an all more all in
one apps? You've got one app to 20 things
or have you gone for small but really light apps?
What's your approach? So great question.
So one of the well, couple of apps that I use are Microsoft's
clarity for heat map and tracking and also seeing some of
the page lags, but also Shopify's own web page
performance on the analytics on the theme editor and Lighthouse
are great tools that help you just know, are we accidentally
inadvertently putting too much JavaScript heavy big images.
Now Shopify is good about making sure that it's helping you not
have 50 Meg PNGS jpegs just by the nature that it prevents you
from loading them into the store to begin with.
But still, you still want to make sure that you don't have a
death by 1000 paper cuts. Because if you get a little lazy
with some Jpegs and PNGS after you have a few 100, then
overall, you know, you kind of you've lost the plot as far as
the page speed and time. And it also helps you.
What I like to do with my Shopify specialist who helps be
my counterbalance is about every so often 30 days, we do an
analysis to read, to reassess, like OK with AB testing of the
landing page, product pages, even the images.
Is this still the best thing that's working?
So we'll do that through a careful balance of the
quantitative data, like I just said, using some of the tools
either built within Shopify or Lighthouse or heat Clarity for
heatmap testing, AB testing, but then also the qualitative.
So we do. I have a post purchase.
I use user loop for my post purchase survey.
So that's what I found is the hottest time to get someone.
They've already spent 110 to 120, thirty dollars.
Ask them a question, two or three questions right away.
I give them a 10% discount if they answer all the questions
and I have like a 37% response rate.
After about a year of doing it, I'd like have 100 and 1110
thousand responses. So huge amount of qualitative
responses to find out. One of the reasons it's good to
do that, not just for different demographics, but it was a big
eye opener. Before Shark Tank, of course,
our world was a lot smaller and therefore our customers were
vegan or vegetarian. After Shark Tank, when I
launched that post purchase survey and I asked what's your
lifestyle? How would you describe yourself?
Vegan, vegetarian, lactose, dairy and tolerant are
sensitive. Our world shifted.
So we have a steady 35% of our customers are about or would
describe themselves as vegan or vegetarian. 55% of our customers
are dairy, lactose intolerant or sensitive.
So that's to what you were saying earlier, a huge eye
opener from a marketing, whether it's paid or organic.
We need to start looking at the much bigger slice of the pie
because in the US, about 3% of the pop of the US population
identifies as vegan versus. About 55 to 60% of the US
population has some sort of dairy sensitivity, whether it's
full blown lactose intolerance or it makes their, you know,
digestive system not happy. So why would we go after a small
little slice first? A large, large swath.
So that's been very eye opening as far as testing not just
messaging apps performance, but knowing where we want to shift
our messages along the way. We've spoken about apps then, so
bigger than just the apps in Shopify, your bigger, wider tech
stack. Are there any specific decisions
you made early on that you've actually gone, that was a
terrible idea? Or actually, it's been a game
changer for us and we should have done it sooner.
Or we didn't understand how powerful it was when we first
integrated that tech or used a new piece of software.
Well, everyday I make tons of mistakes.
Don't we all? I always hope I learn from them,
but I think again, it was lack of time and just having wearing
too many hats. I wish that I had more time
earlier after we launched our Shark Tank episode to be able to
get a really good understanding of the shipping costs for which
would include things like Because We are plant based
cheeses were perishable. So that means our goal is to try
to get the product to you once we ship.
So the fulfillment may take 3 or 4 days for the kitchen to make
the products etcetera. But once we say your product is
shipped 2 days or less. So that means we have to have
insulation in the boxes that we make sure are compostable or
recyclable ice packs that are going to be enough ice packs
that will keep the product at 40° Fahrenheit or less for that
one to two day travel. And also not 'cause the box to
waste so much that we pay a crazy amount of shipping costs
from FedEx or UPS. So we my Co founder Fred and I
are constantly analyzing and re analyzing who is the best
cardboard box vendor, who is the best insulation vendor, who is
the best ice pack vendor as well as other things like the tape
that goes on there because everybody wants to sell you
stuff. But if one of our sub goals as
Rebel cheese is to also be sustainable and you try to have,
you know, the the least impact on the planet as we can as far
as these materials, that already eliminates a lot of those.
And once we make that sign that contract for truckloads of boxes
and ice. One of the things I didn't
mention is we own our own vertical, our entire vertical.
So we have our own production kitchen, our own warehouse, our
own fulfillment center. So we own everything, which
allows us to own everything, but also make our own mistakes that
can be very costly. Last thing on my list to ask you
about is product reviews to obviously help help convert
customers. Now, I, we work quite a lot with
a lot of review platforms, so I'm totally at home with how
reviews work and stuff. So my question to you really,
Tina, rather than telling us like what are reviews and how do
they work? I want to, what I'd love to find
out from you is how do you leverage the review content
itself? How do you get customers leave a
review? But how do you leverage that
content once customers have reviewed something to get more
customers or encourage people to buy another product?
So my first trick is I'll show you for people that are
watching, we have thank you cards and they're usually blank.
And then we write their name and on the back it says you can save
$5 off if you leave a Google review or Facebook review, or
this is how you leave one on our site.
And if they leave one on our site, they'll automatically get
an e-mail to leave another review for another discount
code. We also send an automation
e-mail that thanks every customer for their order.
And then we also send an e-mail to give a referral to a friend
and then they both get codes off.
So the customer's always getting something because like, what's
the point? Like I want to thank them for
their review because it's work for them.
Because I know what it's like on the other side to leave a
review. It means a lot for the business.
So the least I could do is thank them.
And then there's also reviews on our site.
If you leave 1, you get an e-mail discount code right away.
Amazing. And I think the the right away
is so important. Is it you don't want a customer
going, I've done something and I've got nothing that's worth
than not offering it in the first place.
I think having it automated is amazing.
If I, if I, if a client asks me, can you explain how we should
get more reviews? Everything you've just said, I
think is what I should probably say to them in such a concise
way of saying, I, I, I guess it almost sounds like your mission
is as soon as someone's bought a product from us, we need to get
a review from them, whatever it takes.
And if they leave one, we should thank them, which I, I imagine
must, it must create such a good long term like communication and
relationship between you and customer as a business, because
you've already given them a reward, they've given you a
review. It's like that's quite a strong
relationship compared to just I bought something and never spoke
to them again. Definitely.
Nice. So there we go guys.
That is a review strategy in a nutshell.
But obviously there's a technical challenge in there for
music in O'Brien of right. We've got this new e-mail list
like no one knows the new brands and we know what Google and
Microsoft and all the servers are going to do if we suddenly
e-mail them all. Talk us through that process of
introducing that new brands to everybody from a both technical
and kind of marketing perspective.
No, you're, you're, you're directly on, on the nail with
that one. I mean, the biggest thing is,
you know, we, you can't, you're, you're on.
And I think it, it probably breaks so many people's hearts
that I can't just take an e-mail list from one brand and say,
I've got all these emails and I can, I can send them whatever I
want. You can, you're welcome to most
of those emails are going to end up blocked or in the spam
folder. And one of the things that is
really important to us is that when we're sending emails to
customers, that our customers are, that our customers are
successful reaching their customers.
And so that really is a guiding principle for us to protect the
inbox from that junk, which then make sure that the good emails
do make it into the inbox. Something that was really unique
was I actually, I knew about Pat and Quill before I got into E
com and before I got into e-mail marketing, I was working at the
Apple Store and a few of the, the guys at the Genius Bar had
their PQ cases and everyone was always envious.
And you know, something that was really cool is it was never just
like 1 product, right? It was, you had fans, real
people that were, were truly fans.
So, you know, I always, whenever somebody says I need to rebrand,
I approach it with a little skepticism.
In Brian's case, I had, I already had a personal
connection. I knew that he was being honest
that these are my customers and they love me.
And a lot of these, I have 10 year buying relationships, 15
year buying relationships with them.
They've been with me the whole way.
So what we needed to do was really make sure that the the
story of who is Burton Goods and how did they end up in my inbox
come across. Brian had already done a really
nice job writing up a landing page about what happened to PQ
and then where Burton came from that.
So that was a big part of what we wanted to do with
introduction. But it's not just that easy as
you can't just take, you know, thousands and thousands of
e-mail address and just say, hey, by the way, this is what
happened. Yeah.
Because if they don't recognize it right away, it's a it's a
problem. Yeah.
So and buy this product, look at these images, see all these
links? It's like it's just a nightmare,
isn't it? It's all the things you don't
want a spam filter getting its hands on.
Yeah. And we, I mean, Brian was really
open to, to our input and that helped a lot for me.
You know where we, I don't think we Brian, we didn't even feature
products in the first couple of emails.
It was a personal note. You know, we used a signature
section in there to make it look like he had signed the e-mail.
And it was all of the whole CTA was driving back to what
happened to PQ. And that relationship, customer
relationship, I think was something that Brian held on to.
But in order to get to the inbox for that first one, we had to
sift through all the MailChimp data and say, I need to find
those super fans first. And this is something that we've
talked about a lot, Nick before. But by taking your, your list
and everyone thinks their list is just a monolith of just, I
have an e-mail list and just push this block forward.
But there's really, there are valuable sections within that
list. And so we've started to dig into
previous purchase data from Magento and previous engagement
data from MailChimp. And we found those little bits
and we started by stacking the deck with those little bits and
getting those folks to to send. So I think, Brian, if I remember
correctly, the first e-mail that we sent with Saguno had an open
rate over 50%. And it was a lower volume, but
it was, it's, it proved that, hey, there are people that want
to hear from this. And it had a very low
unsubscribe rate. And then we said, great, now
let's take the next level of fans and the next level of fans.
And we kept repeating that process until we'd gotten
through everybody that had a previous buying relationship
with with Brian or had been engaging with e-mail from
MailChimp with Pat and Quill before.
And so it's, it's not a fast process.
But you know, there's another fortunate part of being on
Brian's timeline was I want to do this right.
We're willing to work with you to get it right.
And so those are my favorite projects where I get to sink my
teeth into it and say, all right, we've got a problem to
solve. We know we've got a a really
strong possible outcome on the other end, so let's work towards
it. Do you ever find that in your
warehouse you have dead stock, You can't sell it, no one wants
to buy it, and you can't get a refund on it.
Or alternatively, you're missing inventory in your warehouse that
you need, you've got sales coming in and you're low on
stock and you haven't ordered more stock.
In time, all these things hit profit.
And I've been there. I've run my own Shopify store
and had exactly that problem, but we've partnered up with
Inventory Planner who have the most incredible app to help you
manage that and forecast exactly what products, what skews even
down to what colour of products you need to order in advance to
make sure stock layer levels remain consistent throughout.
They're also running a seven day boot camp and if you want to go
and sign up to that, it's 7 emails in seven days and it
takes the same amount of time as your morning coffee.
And in seven days, like me, you can become an inventory
management pro. Both links are in the
description. Enjoy.