1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:03,480 Today on the Winning with Shopify podcast, Today though, 2 00:00:03,480 --> 00:00:06,480 we're talking about AI. Accurate representation of our 3 00:00:06,480 --> 00:00:09,480 customer base is the heart of who we are as a brand. 4 00:00:09,680 --> 00:00:12,440 I'm now having conversations with my car more often and my 5 00:00:12,440 --> 00:00:14,000 wife's like I'm sitting here, can you talk to me? 6 00:00:14,200 --> 00:00:18,200 Let's just try it and experiment and if they understand what's OK 7 00:00:18,200 --> 00:00:20,720 and what's not, then you can trust them to do that. 8 00:00:20,760 --> 00:00:23,560 Google grabs content and puts content in those AI results. 9 00:00:23,560 --> 00:00:27,800 Now for FAQs for information. So everything you've ever said 10 00:00:27,840 --> 00:00:31,440 about your brand is being. Boarded brands really are 11 00:00:31,440 --> 00:00:38,640 exposed hello and welcome to another episode the winning 12 00:00:38,640 --> 00:00:40,360 should fight podcast. If you're not cheating before my 13 00:00:40,360 --> 00:00:41,560 name is Nick and I never wear yellow. 14 00:00:41,560 --> 00:00:43,920 My wife has left the door this morning said have you borrowed 15 00:00:43,920 --> 00:00:45,960 someone else's T-shirt? Like, no, I'm wearing yellow. 16 00:00:45,960 --> 00:00:48,240 It's not my colour. But hey, it is the middle of 17 00:00:48,240 --> 00:00:50,200 summer here in the United Kingdom and it's absolutely 18 00:00:50,200 --> 00:00:52,680 miserable today. At the time recording this, so I 19 00:00:52,680 --> 00:00:55,360 thought I'd brighten things up. If you haven't already, please 20 00:00:55,360 --> 00:00:57,760 go and subscribe to our newsletter and also check out my 21 00:00:57,760 --> 00:01:01,000 little tea break episodes. They're called Tuesday's tea 22 00:01:01,000 --> 00:01:03,400 break talks. That's the one we keep changing 23 00:01:03,400 --> 00:01:05,519 the name Jeff. I don't know what business 24 00:01:05,519 --> 00:01:08,600 Jeff's from, but Jeff reached out on e-mail, Jeff something 25 00:01:08,600 --> 00:01:10,680 something, something at Gmail and suggested the name. 26 00:01:10,680 --> 00:01:13,840 So it's Tuesday's Tuesday tea break talks with a tongue 27 00:01:13,840 --> 00:01:15,160 twister. But I'll get it by the time we 28 00:01:15,160 --> 00:01:16,280 change the name to something else. 29 00:01:16,520 --> 00:01:18,680 So super excited for today's episode. 30 00:01:18,720 --> 00:01:21,200 I've got a guest called Janice Thomas and Janice has been on 31 00:01:21,200 --> 00:01:23,360 the show several times. And I was just joking before we 32 00:01:23,360 --> 00:01:25,800 start recording. Janice is our, I think second 33 00:01:25,800 --> 00:01:28,280 most featured guest now. So Janice, I would normally say 34 00:01:28,280 --> 00:01:30,520 welcome, but I'm going to say welcome back, back, back, back, 35 00:01:30,520 --> 00:01:31,760 back. Welcome back to the show. 36 00:01:32,120 --> 00:01:34,920 Thanks for having me, Nick. Well, it's a pleasure to have 37 00:01:34,920 --> 00:01:37,640 you here and if anyone's like, OK, Nick, this person, Janice, 38 00:01:37,760 --> 00:01:40,240 obviously you are an absolute legend in the e-commerce world. 39 00:01:40,240 --> 00:01:42,760 Janice, I'm a massive fan of your LinkedIn posts. 40 00:01:42,880 --> 00:01:44,160 I've watched a lot of conference talks. 41 00:01:44,440 --> 00:01:45,760 We've also done a lot of things together. 42 00:01:45,760 --> 00:01:48,520 And when we grab 5 minutes at the odd conference to have a 43 00:01:48,520 --> 00:01:50,920 chat, it ends up being 50 minutes talking about e-commerce 44 00:01:50,920 --> 00:01:51,880 and everything else that's going on. 45 00:01:51,880 --> 00:01:54,960 So if anyone's not come across your name or heard of you before 46 00:01:54,960 --> 00:01:58,880 or seen any episodes, give us an overview to where you work, what 47 00:01:58,880 --> 00:02:01,600 the business does, and also your role within the organization. 48 00:02:02,200 --> 00:02:04,160 Yeah. So I'm managing director at a 49 00:02:04,160 --> 00:02:07,400 direct consumer beauty brand called Look Fabulous Forever. 50 00:02:08,039 --> 00:02:13,680 We manufacture and formulate makeup and skin care, and it's 51 00:02:13,680 --> 00:02:16,920 all designed for the unique needs of older women. 52 00:02:17,200 --> 00:02:20,240 But typically in the beauty industry, an older woman is like 53 00:02:20,240 --> 00:02:23,200 somebody over 25. But all of our products are 54 00:02:23,200 --> 00:02:25,280 specifically designed for women post menopause. 55 00:02:25,280 --> 00:02:28,320 So our customer base is typically in her sixties, 70s 56 00:02:28,320 --> 00:02:30,840 and 80s. Amazing. 57 00:02:30,880 --> 00:02:32,080 And I mean, you've got that to a tee. 58 00:02:32,080 --> 00:02:34,280 I think the first time I asked you about 3 or 4 years ago, it 59 00:02:34,280 --> 00:02:36,760 was a lot longer than that. But I think because you do, you 60 00:02:36,760 --> 00:02:39,000 do so much in the sort of speaking circuits, which is 61 00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:41,720 which is part of the business exposure because naturally 62 00:02:41,720 --> 00:02:44,560 anyone over the age of 25 who's a woman is a potential target 63 00:02:44,560 --> 00:02:46,360 customer. But I always love the way you 64 00:02:46,360 --> 00:02:47,920 drill straight into that. These are the people we're 65 00:02:47,920 --> 00:02:51,280 targeting, what we're doing. And today though, we're talking 66 00:02:51,280 --> 00:02:53,280 about AI. And you and I have had quite a 67 00:02:53,280 --> 00:02:55,960 few chats in odd round tables and over e-mail and other stuff 68 00:02:55,960 --> 00:02:59,720 and in a little forum as well about about AI and how it all 69 00:02:59,720 --> 00:03:02,160 kind of plugs together and how brands are using it, not using 70 00:03:02,160 --> 00:03:03,480 it. And even a couple of things 71 00:03:03,480 --> 00:03:05,800 we've mentioned before, hitting record was like something I 72 00:03:05,800 --> 00:03:07,480 didn't know, something you didn't know about AI. 73 00:03:07,480 --> 00:03:09,680 That's changing. Give us a quick overview and 74 00:03:09,680 --> 00:03:11,680 then we're going to dig in some of the more kind of areas you 75 00:03:11,680 --> 00:03:14,160 guys are using it, some more sophisticated, some you're just 76 00:03:14,160 --> 00:03:15,240 sort of starting out and trying it. 77 00:03:15,240 --> 00:03:17,440 But give us an overview to how does AI fit into the look 78 00:03:17,440 --> 00:03:20,320 fabulous forever business and and a kind of internal workings 79 00:03:20,320 --> 00:03:21,880 of the brand. Yeah. 80 00:03:21,880 --> 00:03:29,400 So we originally, I think it was nearly 2 1/2 years ago now, just 81 00:03:29,400 --> 00:03:32,360 as you know, ChatGPT was really taking off and all of those 82 00:03:32,360 --> 00:03:33,120 things. I've heard of it, Yep. 83 00:03:34,280 --> 00:03:38,760 I was thinking this is going to be a, this is going to be a 84 00:03:38,760 --> 00:03:42,760 fundamental shift within our industry and the careers of 85 00:03:42,760 --> 00:03:44,800 everyone who works in this organization. 86 00:03:45,120 --> 00:03:51,960 So I said, look, everyone go away and play with ChatGPT, see 87 00:03:51,960 --> 00:03:56,560 what AI tools we have within our existing marketing, you know, 88 00:03:56,560 --> 00:04:00,920 tech platforms, all of those things go experiment and come 89 00:04:00,920 --> 00:04:05,760 back and share. And that has been kind of our 90 00:04:05,760 --> 00:04:11,480 philosophy on AI is let's just try an experiment. 91 00:04:11,480 --> 00:04:15,160 And there have been things that it really, really doesn't work 92 00:04:15,160 --> 00:04:18,360 for and things that it works really, really well for. 93 00:04:18,600 --> 00:04:23,800 But from my point of view, it's really important for me as the 94 00:04:23,800 --> 00:04:25,840 managing director of the organization to set that 95 00:04:25,840 --> 00:04:28,800 culture. And that expectation is that 96 00:04:28,960 --> 00:04:30,840 you're going to experiment with that AI. 97 00:04:30,840 --> 00:04:34,840 It's not going to work, but this is the way forward. 98 00:04:34,840 --> 00:04:36,480 And this stuff is really important. 99 00:04:37,480 --> 00:04:39,720 Yeah, And, and my first note I've written down here is you 100 00:04:39,720 --> 00:04:42,240 were right, Janice. It's, it really has taken off. 101 00:04:42,600 --> 00:04:45,520 One thing I love about obviously your managing director. 102 00:04:45,520 --> 00:04:47,880 I, I think you would, you would you had a marketing job title 103 00:04:47,880 --> 00:04:49,840 previously, didn't you, a few years, a few years back. 104 00:04:50,600 --> 00:04:53,560 But what I love is the way that whenever you talk about your 105 00:04:53,560 --> 00:04:56,560 team or when we talk about the way you do social ads and other 106 00:04:56,560 --> 00:04:57,960 things, that really inspired me over the years. 107 00:04:58,760 --> 00:05:01,080 When we talk about those things, you always talk about having a 108 00:05:01,080 --> 00:05:03,320 very proactive approach and actually even saying to the 109 00:05:03,320 --> 00:05:07,480 team, go away, do some research, find how this new AI thing could 110 00:05:07,560 --> 00:05:09,960 support your job function or the company as a whole. 111 00:05:10,200 --> 00:05:13,040 Come back and report that to me. I think it's the opposite to 112 00:05:13,040 --> 00:05:15,840 much less progressive brands where they would almost go. 113 00:05:16,440 --> 00:05:18,920 They're asking people like me and saying like, oh, do you guys 114 00:05:18,920 --> 00:05:21,320 use AI for stuff? It's like, yeah, like, I mean, 115 00:05:21,560 --> 00:05:24,360 I've literally got voice activated chat TVC in my car now 116 00:05:24,840 --> 00:05:26,440 and ALDI have released that into cars. 117 00:05:26,960 --> 00:05:28,760 And so the other day I asked it something like, where's this 118 00:05:28,760 --> 00:05:30,080 restaurant? It's like, here's something I 119 00:05:30,080 --> 00:05:32,000 found on ChatGPT. Like whoa, whoa, whoa. 120 00:05:32,480 --> 00:05:35,240 I'm now having conversations with my car more often and my 121 00:05:35,240 --> 00:05:38,480 wife's like, I'm sitting here, you can talk to me, but talking 122 00:05:38,480 --> 00:05:40,520 to the car would chat to me. But I think that proactive 123 00:05:40,520 --> 00:05:42,920 approach to go and find some stuff and bring it back rather 124 00:05:42,920 --> 00:05:47,120 than relying on, I don't know, systems to start using AI for us 125 00:05:47,120 --> 00:05:49,600 and speeding things up. I'm going to ask you a massive 126 00:05:49,600 --> 00:05:51,120 question now. This might be the next like two 127 00:05:51,120 --> 00:05:53,360 or three hours of conversation, which I don't think I've even 128 00:05:53,360 --> 00:05:55,280 got that long. What were some of the initial 129 00:05:55,280 --> 00:05:57,640 things they came back with, especially the ones that have 130 00:05:57,640 --> 00:05:59,440 actually been embedded that you've kept long term? 131 00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:03,920 Yeah, so funnily enough, the first thing that came back that 132 00:06:03,920 --> 00:06:08,560 was really like, this is a total game changer win for us, which 133 00:06:08,560 --> 00:06:13,920 is really then gone on to be the case is really around images. 134 00:06:14,280 --> 00:06:19,200 And I think for us particularly that ability to take a flat 135 00:06:19,320 --> 00:06:24,000 product image and turn it into a lifestyle image being like, oh, 136 00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:26,280 do you know, it's really sunny this week, Let's show this 137 00:06:26,280 --> 00:06:29,680 lipstick on the beach, you know, oh, you know, all the spring 138 00:06:29,680 --> 00:06:31,880 flowers are out. Let's do a lovely image with 139 00:06:31,880 --> 00:06:35,840 spring flowers. Like that has just been things 140 00:06:35,840 --> 00:06:39,040 that would previously either we wouldn't have been able to do be 141 00:06:39,040 --> 00:06:41,080 that creative because we wouldn't have had the time and 142 00:06:41,080 --> 00:06:44,520 the resource to go out and do that shoot at all. 143 00:06:44,840 --> 00:06:47,760 Or it's like, oh, well, it's going to take this much time and 144 00:06:47,760 --> 00:06:49,880 then we're going to have to edit the images and all of those 145 00:06:49,880 --> 00:06:52,320 things just being like, bang, it's done. 146 00:06:52,960 --> 00:06:56,720 That was like the first thing that was like, yes, this is the 147 00:06:56,720 --> 00:06:59,600 thing we absolutely need to be leaning into. 148 00:07:00,840 --> 00:07:05,520 But because of that, very early on, because of our brand, and we 149 00:07:05,520 --> 00:07:08,240 have a really strong brand and I think that's really important in 150 00:07:08,240 --> 00:07:12,360 the age of AI. We very, you know, right off the 151 00:07:12,360 --> 00:07:16,400 bat put some like really clear guidelines around those images. 152 00:07:16,400 --> 00:07:20,000 It's like, yeah, it's great for product based stuff and we would 153 00:07:20,040 --> 00:07:22,720 absolutely use it. And we use it, you know, to help 154 00:07:22,720 --> 00:07:25,640 with, you know, editing and cropping and, you know, kind of 155 00:07:25,640 --> 00:07:29,520 things like that. But we would never use AI to 156 00:07:29,520 --> 00:07:33,200 create an image of a woman or a woman's skin because for those 157 00:07:33,200 --> 00:07:36,040 that's like the accurate representation of our customer 158 00:07:36,040 --> 00:07:38,640 base is the heart of who we are as a brand. 159 00:07:38,840 --> 00:07:42,080 Therefore, that is something that we would never do. 160 00:07:42,080 --> 00:07:48,560 And I think that strong brand is really important in the age of 161 00:07:48,600 --> 00:07:53,080 AI about what you do and don't do as a brand, because your team 162 00:07:53,080 --> 00:07:56,040 are going to be off doing a million different things with 163 00:07:56,240 --> 00:07:59,200 AI, whether you endorse that or not. 164 00:07:59,360 --> 00:08:03,160 And if they understand what's OK and what's not, then you can 165 00:08:03,160 --> 00:08:05,360 trust them to do that. But if they don't have that 166 00:08:05,360 --> 00:08:09,160 clear brand and anything is, you know, on the table, then that's 167 00:08:09,160 --> 00:08:10,240 where you're going to get things. 168 00:08:10,240 --> 00:08:13,840 You're like, that's just wrong. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 169 00:08:13,840 --> 00:08:17,600 And again, I love that proactive approach to saying, and I'm sure 170 00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:19,840 there's more categories than just the weather or the seasons 171 00:08:19,840 --> 00:08:22,120 or something. But it's a sunny day and then 172 00:08:22,120 --> 00:08:26,120 posting something on social by ten, 10:30 in the morning in the 173 00:08:26,120 --> 00:08:28,360 UK, obviously where your main customer base is. 174 00:08:28,600 --> 00:08:30,600 And posting something is like, wow, it's a beautiful spring 175 00:08:30,600 --> 00:08:31,720 morning. And then when they're doing some 176 00:08:31,720 --> 00:08:34,000 doom scrolling later, it's like, oh, that's really nice. 177 00:08:34,159 --> 00:08:36,159 You know, that's that's the perfect lipstick to wear in this 178 00:08:36,159 --> 00:08:38,159 weather. Or, you know, the perfect tone 179 00:08:38,159 --> 00:08:39,520 to be or this type of tone to be using. 180 00:08:39,520 --> 00:08:41,760 So you're providing some information that you've written 181 00:08:41,760 --> 00:08:44,000 1000 times, but now you've just changed the context of it used 182 00:08:44,080 --> 00:08:47,760 AI we use, we use the AI within Canva and Photoshop a lot to 183 00:08:47,760 --> 00:08:49,880 remove backgrounds. I'm sure you do the same things 184 00:08:49,880 --> 00:08:51,560 even with a white flat pack image. 185 00:08:51,760 --> 00:08:54,960 That background remover is absolutely amazing. 186 00:08:55,040 --> 00:08:57,960 And certainly when I guess in my world, I'm putting it on like 187 00:08:57,960 --> 00:09:00,520 the spec red background in a pitch deck or something, but 188 00:09:00,760 --> 00:09:03,120 just making it look really, really clean, like putting 189 00:09:03,120 --> 00:09:06,080 somebody's, I don't know, say it was a pair of glasses. 190 00:09:06,080 --> 00:09:07,960 And we we're actually working with a couple of glasses brands 191 00:09:07,960 --> 00:09:11,200 as of the last few weeks to put in glasses, especially where it 192 00:09:11,200 --> 00:09:13,800 removes the background from within the glass is, is amazing. 193 00:09:14,120 --> 00:09:17,040 Our partners at Saguna have released a brand new app for 194 00:09:17,040 --> 00:09:19,760 Shopify and it's called Shopify Connect for Canva. 195 00:09:20,120 --> 00:09:22,400 You can essentially look at all of your product images from 196 00:09:22,400 --> 00:09:25,600 Shopify directly in Canva and export them straight back. 197 00:09:25,640 --> 00:09:28,760 This can save you a lot of time. If you want to find out a bit 198 00:09:28,760 --> 00:09:30,960 more about this or go and find the app yourself, you can go to 199 00:09:30,960 --> 00:09:36,080 saguna.com. Canva, enjoy with with the AI as 200 00:09:36,080 --> 00:09:37,880 well. You touched on this and we said 201 00:09:37,880 --> 00:09:40,600 we were going to talk about this today as well about the brands. 202 00:09:40,960 --> 00:09:44,040 Like I use the word exposed. I think brands are really 203 00:09:44,040 --> 00:09:47,520 exposed now because it's not just like the SEO crawlers and 204 00:09:47,520 --> 00:09:49,520 then going, oh, this stuff here is populist. 205 00:09:49,520 --> 00:09:52,320 Let's put that up as a page listing on Google and they land 206 00:09:52,320 --> 00:09:53,720 on the page and you're in control of the journey. 207 00:09:54,000 --> 00:09:57,040 Google grabs content and puts content in those AI results now 208 00:09:57,040 --> 00:10:00,880 for FAQs, for information, brands really are exposed. 209 00:10:00,880 --> 00:10:03,760 Like if you put something hidden in the depths of your website 210 00:10:03,760 --> 00:10:06,400 and someone puts the right search in, you know, Gemini's 211 00:10:06,400 --> 00:10:08,920 going to know that and Google's going to go right, here's an AI 212 00:10:08,920 --> 00:10:12,080 result with that on. How much, how much tighter do 213 00:10:12,080 --> 00:10:16,160 you think brands need to be now with controlling that story, 214 00:10:16,160 --> 00:10:19,760 that positioning? I think it's absolutely vital 215 00:10:19,760 --> 00:10:22,920 and I think it's wider than your website as well because 216 00:10:23,080 --> 00:10:27,280 increasingly those LLMS are using your social post copy to 217 00:10:27,280 --> 00:10:30,560 learn about your brand. So everything you've ever said 218 00:10:30,560 --> 00:10:33,360 about your brand is being recorded. 219 00:10:33,640 --> 00:10:38,200 And I think particularly from an organic social perspective, how 220 00:10:38,200 --> 00:10:42,720 you talk about your products and your USPS and all of those 221 00:10:42,720 --> 00:10:45,240 things and the sort of content that you're sharing. 222 00:10:45,480 --> 00:10:49,080 If you're just sharing the latest, you know, viral meme 223 00:10:49,080 --> 00:10:52,240 about the guy at the Coldplay concert, what is that teaching? 224 00:10:52,240 --> 00:10:56,400 About that a minute ago, yeah. About your brand. 225 00:10:56,400 --> 00:11:01,720 So I think being like increasingly clear about what 226 00:11:01,720 --> 00:11:04,520 you are and what you stand for and what you talk about and what 227 00:11:04,520 --> 00:11:08,840 you don't talk about, rather than just jumping on, oh, this 228 00:11:08,840 --> 00:11:11,240 is a viral trend. Oh, we think that we should have 229 00:11:11,320 --> 00:11:14,800 a, you know, blog post about, you know, whatever's, you know, 230 00:11:16,680 --> 00:11:19,600 hot right now match a coffee or something like that. 231 00:11:21,200 --> 00:11:23,000 It's then teaching them the wrong things. 232 00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:26,600 And I think brands that are really focused on what they are 233 00:11:26,600 --> 00:11:29,440 and what they stand for are going to win. 234 00:11:29,920 --> 00:11:33,200 Because I think it's not just, oh, you're talking about like 235 00:11:33,200 --> 00:11:37,200 search snippets. It's like being the right search 236 00:11:37,200 --> 00:11:43,080 snippet is increasingly important because like, if you 237 00:11:43,080 --> 00:11:46,640 know, like previously, I'll like, I'll, you know, I want to 238 00:11:46,640 --> 00:11:50,000 rank for, you know, number one for digital marketing agency. 239 00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:53,640 Oh, I can do that by spending enough money on PPC, but being, 240 00:11:53,960 --> 00:11:57,000 you know, saying, oh, actually we're the best, you know, 241 00:11:57,000 --> 00:12:01,080 digital marketing agency for brands on Shopify between 5 and 242 00:12:01,080 --> 00:12:05,120 10,000,000 LB revenue being the number one result for those that 243 00:12:05,120 --> 00:12:09,400 kind of multifaceted search, particularly in LLMS, you know, 244 00:12:09,400 --> 00:12:14,160 that is where they, they really excel is in that multifaceted 245 00:12:14,160 --> 00:12:17,160 environment that Google isn't, is getting better at, but isn't 246 00:12:17,160 --> 00:12:21,320 brilliant at. So really being clear about who 247 00:12:21,320 --> 00:12:24,160 you are and who your customer is and what you do and what you 248 00:12:24,400 --> 00:12:28,600 don't do and being single minded about going after that. 249 00:12:28,840 --> 00:12:33,160 That's where you win across the board, both in terms of search 250 00:12:33,160 --> 00:12:37,240 and LLMS. Absolutely. And I mean, just just to give an 251 00:12:37,240 --> 00:12:40,360 example of how to work that out in e-commerce, so many brands 252 00:12:40,440 --> 00:12:42,320 that we're working with, we started looking at things like 253 00:12:42,320 --> 00:12:46,040 loyalty programs and a massive 1 is then rewarding people that 254 00:12:46,040 --> 00:12:48,480 and Block your Ears, trust Pilot, Judge Me and all the 255 00:12:48,480 --> 00:12:50,560 other review players rewarding people when they leave a review, 256 00:12:50,560 --> 00:12:52,440 which is against some of the terms and conditions, but it's a 257 00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:55,400 third party rewarding. And I'll let the lawyers discuss 258 00:12:55,400 --> 00:12:57,320 that one. But companies are doing it. 259 00:12:57,320 --> 00:12:59,720 I'm not, they are. So you can have an argument with 260 00:12:59,720 --> 00:13:02,080 them, but the rewarding people for leaving a review, especially 261 00:13:02,080 --> 00:13:04,320 one with an image and giving them more loyalty points or 262 00:13:04,320 --> 00:13:05,600 bigger reward if they leave an image. 263 00:13:05,760 --> 00:13:07,520 The same with posting on social with their product. 264 00:13:07,720 --> 00:13:10,920 Suddenly you've got access to actually look at your customers 265 00:13:10,920 --> 00:13:13,240 like you would in a physical shop, but without having a 266 00:13:13,240 --> 00:13:16,920 physical shop and then understanding who they are. 267 00:13:16,920 --> 00:13:19,840 I mean, immediately you said actually for older women, but 268 00:13:19,840 --> 00:13:22,840 we're talking 25 plus. It's one reason I love talking 269 00:13:22,840 --> 00:13:25,320 to Janice is you've you've drilled down so tightly to who 270 00:13:25,320 --> 00:13:28,880 the customer is, which which I'm going to say it's easy, but it 271 00:13:28,880 --> 00:13:30,920 it gives you more of a laser focus, doesn't it, when it comes 272 00:13:30,920 --> 00:13:33,480 to creating content and what audiences to use. 273 00:13:33,480 --> 00:13:37,000 And actually TikTok probably is a big platform for you now where 274 00:13:37,120 --> 00:13:40,320 when you first said it's, you know, make up for older women 275 00:13:40,320 --> 00:13:42,040 you wouldn't necessarily associate with TikTok, you'd go, 276 00:13:42,200 --> 00:13:44,120 well, it's Facebook and some forums, isn't it? 277 00:13:44,120 --> 00:13:46,920 But actually, Tik Tok's relevant to a 27 year old, isn't it? 278 00:13:48,040 --> 00:13:50,400 It is, which is why we're we're still on there. 279 00:13:50,400 --> 00:13:53,760 And one of the things that we do is we regularly talk to our 280 00:13:53,760 --> 00:13:56,080 customers and we ask them things like, are you on TikTok? 281 00:13:56,080 --> 00:13:58,320 And one of the things that I find fascinating about that 282 00:13:58,320 --> 00:14:01,000 platform in particular because we have been monitoring that 283 00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:05,880 over probably about two years. And I can't remember the exact 284 00:14:05,880 --> 00:14:08,000 stats, but with ballpark, the first time we asked, it was 285 00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:12,480 about 2% and it went up over time to about 5% and then it's 286 00:14:12,480 --> 00:14:16,120 dropped back down to about 3%. So within our demographic, which 287 00:14:16,120 --> 00:14:18,880 is very, you know, very much in that kind of, you know, 60s, 288 00:14:18,880 --> 00:14:23,400 seventies, 80s, there was a kind of level of interest, a bit of 289 00:14:23,400 --> 00:14:26,120 experimentation. And it's dropped off, I think 290 00:14:26,320 --> 00:14:31,120 for mainstream brands, you know, in a mainstream demographic, I 291 00:14:31,120 --> 00:14:36,560 think TikTok has been such a game changer because of the fact 292 00:14:36,560 --> 00:14:40,200 that it's all about discovery. It's less about, oh, these are 293 00:14:40,200 --> 00:14:42,360 the specific people I'm following. 294 00:14:42,480 --> 00:14:44,920 It's like these are the people I'm, this is the stuff that I'm 295 00:14:44,960 --> 00:14:48,200 interested in. And then I'm naturally being 296 00:14:48,200 --> 00:14:51,400 served stuff that I am interested in. 297 00:14:51,400 --> 00:14:59,000 And I think that whole kind of AI algorithm stuff around social 298 00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:02,880 is really interesting, being really clear about, again, what 299 00:15:02,880 --> 00:15:05,760 you are and who you know, who you target, what you stand for, 300 00:15:05,760 --> 00:15:08,880 all of those things. And using that to reach more of 301 00:15:08,880 --> 00:15:12,360 the right person is just a really interesting proposition. 302 00:15:13,240 --> 00:15:14,000 Yeah. And I love that. 303 00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:15,920 And I've just drawn, I'm not going to show it because I have 304 00:15:15,920 --> 00:15:19,680 the handwriting of a three-year old on the best of days, but 305 00:15:19,680 --> 00:15:22,000 I've just written down a quick process actually of what what 306 00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:24,320 we're talking about here. So it starts with the 307 00:15:24,680 --> 00:15:26,640 understanding of who the existing customer is. 308 00:15:26,640 --> 00:15:27,680 So there's a bit of chicken and egg. 309 00:15:27,680 --> 00:15:29,480 You've got to get enough customers if you're starting out 310 00:15:29,760 --> 00:15:32,000 to, to have them it's and I'm going to ask you a question on 311 00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:33,400 how to get more information them in a SEC. 312 00:15:33,400 --> 00:15:34,680 Think that that's where it starts. 313 00:15:35,000 --> 00:15:37,240 Now we've got that. Now you can try some creative 314 00:15:37,240 --> 00:15:40,440 executions and it's a bit clearer which platforms to go to 315 00:15:41,040 --> 00:15:43,040 because you're, you know who they are because you've spoken 316 00:15:43,040 --> 00:15:44,040 to them. And then you have those 317 00:15:44,040 --> 00:15:47,600 platforms, which then means that when the AI kind of LLMS. And if 318 00:15:47,600 --> 00:15:50,000 you, if you don't want any LLMS, guys, go and check out the Yost 319 00:15:50,000 --> 00:15:51,360 episode we spoke about a few weeks ago. 320 00:15:51,880 --> 00:15:55,120 Because I, I spoke to Yost, who are the biggest plug in used in 321 00:15:55,120 --> 00:15:58,360 the entire world on any website platform for their WordPress 322 00:15:58,360 --> 00:15:59,720 plug in. They've got a Shopify plug in. 323 00:15:59,760 --> 00:16:01,440 You get a discount through US and everything else. 324 00:16:01,440 --> 00:16:03,440 So check out that episode we spoke, I spoke with a couple of 325 00:16:03,440 --> 00:16:05,840 their colleagues about LLMS and these guys are writing articles 326 00:16:05,840 --> 00:16:09,360 in all the biggest SEO publications like search engine 327 00:16:09,360 --> 00:16:11,960 journal and other things about LMS at the moment. 328 00:16:12,040 --> 00:16:14,480 So check that out. And if you want to, if you want 329 00:16:14,480 --> 00:16:16,440 to create a little file on the site, you can also go back and 330 00:16:16,440 --> 00:16:19,120 check out there as fun to a sales pitch now it's really 331 00:16:19,120 --> 00:16:20,840 good. I work in SEO and it saves so 332 00:16:20,840 --> 00:16:23,600 much time for us on the free plan of Yost. 333 00:16:24,120 --> 00:16:28,720 You can also get an what's called LM LM TXT file and that 334 00:16:28,720 --> 00:16:33,520 tells the the LLMS, those AI bots from Google, Bing and other 335 00:16:33,520 --> 00:16:35,880 search engines, what to look at on the site. 336 00:16:36,240 --> 00:16:38,440 And you can just take a box and it would do that on your 337 00:16:38,440 --> 00:16:40,880 WordPress site also on your, on your Shopify store. 338 00:16:41,560 --> 00:16:44,000 So you check those out. But so we got the content 339 00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:45,600 because we know who the we know who the customers are. 340 00:16:45,600 --> 00:16:47,320 We know what platforms are targeting and then we can start 341 00:16:47,320 --> 00:16:50,520 testing creative content, which naturally then means we're doing 342 00:16:50,520 --> 00:16:53,840 fun AB test of like this campaign versus this one, which 343 00:16:54,120 --> 00:16:56,960 so many brands I found over the years start at that point. 344 00:16:57,040 --> 00:16:59,520 And we come in and sort of say, we don't really know what you 345 00:16:59,520 --> 00:17:01,360 stand for. There's no USP here. 346 00:17:01,440 --> 00:17:03,240 Your delivery's fast. So is everyone else's. 347 00:17:03,240 --> 00:17:05,000 Your reviews are good, so is everyone else's. 348 00:17:05,240 --> 00:17:06,800 You've been running for over 10 years. 349 00:17:07,040 --> 00:17:09,280 You're actually one of the youngest brands in this space. 350 00:17:09,280 --> 00:17:11,280 And yeah, and your your products are cool. 351 00:17:11,760 --> 00:17:13,760 That's relative, isn't it? That's like an opinion. 352 00:17:14,040 --> 00:17:17,000 So finding things we can fight on, which might be this is just 353 00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:19,240 the products that I, as a consumer, really want at this 354 00:17:19,240 --> 00:17:20,560 moment. And I'm buying it through 355 00:17:20,560 --> 00:17:23,359 TikTok, which is where I want to shop or whatever that space is. 356 00:17:23,359 --> 00:17:26,400 I think so powerful. My question Janice is going 357 00:17:26,400 --> 00:17:29,080 right back to step one and the irony how we're talking about 358 00:17:29,160 --> 00:17:31,120 AI, but we're going back to actually sending out like a 359 00:17:31,120 --> 00:17:35,600 feedback survey. How do how do you slash how can 360 00:17:35,600 --> 00:17:39,840 other brands get customers to provide feedback to them? 361 00:17:39,880 --> 00:17:42,240 Because I know lots of brands try and they don't get many 362 00:17:42,240 --> 00:17:44,080 responses. How do you how do you make that 363 00:17:44,080 --> 00:17:48,280 happen? I think it's a number of things. 364 00:17:48,320 --> 00:17:52,880 I think fundamentally, I think it starts fire up the funnel 365 00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:55,400 with that stuff that you were talking about, like who you are 366 00:17:55,400 --> 00:17:58,200 and what you stand for. Because I think particularly, 367 00:17:59,720 --> 00:18:02,440 particularly with with the way that kind of TikTok and 368 00:18:02,440 --> 00:18:06,360 Instagram are running, it is actually really, really easy to 369 00:18:06,360 --> 00:18:10,040 go viral. You know, any brand can go 370 00:18:10,040 --> 00:18:16,680 viral, but unless you're clear about your brand and what you 371 00:18:16,680 --> 00:18:19,200 stand for and why people should buy from you and why your 372 00:18:19,200 --> 00:18:21,880 products are different, it's really, really hard to people 373 00:18:21,880 --> 00:18:27,880 get people to come back. And if they don't feel invested 374 00:18:27,880 --> 00:18:31,240 in your brand, then they're never, you know, you can survey 375 00:18:31,240 --> 00:18:33,600 them, but they're never going to respond because they don't care. 376 00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:35,560 You don't have, you don't have that. 377 00:18:35,720 --> 00:18:37,280 You don't have that relationship. 378 00:18:37,280 --> 00:18:41,600 You don't have, you haven't bought the permission for them 379 00:18:41,600 --> 00:18:45,280 to spend their time giving you that data. 380 00:18:45,920 --> 00:18:48,880 So I do, you know, I think increasingly you've got all 381 00:18:48,880 --> 00:18:52,120 these different facets that play into being really clear about 382 00:18:52,120 --> 00:18:54,040 who you are and what you stand for. 383 00:18:54,280 --> 00:18:57,920 And if you build a relationship with customers where they do 384 00:18:57,920 --> 00:19:01,080 understand what you stand for and why you're why you exist and 385 00:19:01,080 --> 00:19:04,560 why your products are different and you know, they do come back 386 00:19:04,560 --> 00:19:08,240 and buy from you multiple times. Then typically when we send out 387 00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:11,840 a survey to our customers, which we do every quarter, we get 388 00:19:11,840 --> 00:19:15,800 about 10% response rate and we've been you know sending 389 00:19:15,800 --> 00:19:17,840 those for every quarter for five years. 390 00:19:17,960 --> 00:19:20,440 So a lot of customers have been getting those again and again 391 00:19:20,440 --> 00:19:23,200 and again and they're still responding to them. 392 00:19:23,600 --> 00:19:27,640 And part of that is also the contract with our customers is 393 00:19:27,640 --> 00:19:31,440 that we always feedback to them when we send out every, every 394 00:19:31,440 --> 00:19:34,520 survey being like thank you for responding in the past. 395 00:19:34,680 --> 00:19:39,280 We are launching this new product or we are doing XY and Z 396 00:19:39,360 --> 00:19:41,920 because you told us in previous surveys. 397 00:19:41,920 --> 00:19:46,000 So they don't feel like they respond and then nothing 398 00:19:46,240 --> 00:19:47,200 happens. So. 399 00:19:47,640 --> 00:19:49,720 And that must encourage people to want to fill out next time 400 00:19:49,720 --> 00:19:52,320 because it's like, I could have had an impact and I didn't. 401 00:19:52,360 --> 00:19:53,880 And now they're telling me they're launching this. 402 00:19:54,160 --> 00:19:56,040 That's a great product. I'm going to help out next time 403 00:19:56,040 --> 00:19:57,880 because I think they could have changed something on it. 404 00:19:58,040 --> 00:20:01,280 Exactly, exactly. So you know, it's very easy for 405 00:20:01,280 --> 00:20:05,800 me to be glib and say, oh, you just ask your customers, but you 406 00:20:05,800 --> 00:20:08,080 have to have the right relationship with your customers 407 00:20:08,280 --> 00:20:12,880 1st to get meaningful data. And you know, if you're a huge, 408 00:20:12,880 --> 00:20:14,560 you know, if you're a huge household brand, there are 409 00:20:14,560 --> 00:20:17,240 obviously other ways of, of doing that. 410 00:20:17,400 --> 00:20:21,720 But if you're niche then you you need a relationship with your 411 00:20:21,720 --> 00:20:24,240 customers. Yeah, and I think probably as 412 00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:26,440 much as everyone else, I've ignored so many surveys over the 413 00:20:26,440 --> 00:20:28,680 years thinking I bought from that company because they're the 414 00:20:28,680 --> 00:20:30,680 only one who had that product in stock or they didn't want the 415 00:20:30,680 --> 00:20:33,120 next day delivery. I don't have any clout with 416 00:20:33,120 --> 00:20:35,200 them, any relationship. And if I never bought with them 417 00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:38,040 again, then fine. And I used to site recently to 418 00:20:38,040 --> 00:20:40,760 actually wholesale loads of drinks and chocolate bars and 419 00:20:40,760 --> 00:20:43,440 crisps for the office. And I got an e-mail from them 420 00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:45,560 this morning, which I thought was really powerful actually. 421 00:20:45,560 --> 00:20:47,960 And I must have spent about 500 lbs over the last few months 422 00:20:47,960 --> 00:20:49,520 just ordering stuff for the office. 423 00:20:50,280 --> 00:20:52,800 And they sent me an e-mail saying, oh, you've got 12 lbs of 424 00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:54,440 cash back sitting in your account here. 425 00:20:55,160 --> 00:20:58,400 And I thought everything like I bought wholesale to save some 426 00:20:58,400 --> 00:21:00,840 money and also order in bulk like from a supermarket or 427 00:21:00,840 --> 00:21:02,640 delivery. I couldn't get the quantity that 428 00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:04,640 I wanted. I wanted to just click a button 429 00:21:04,640 --> 00:21:07,520 and get tons of long life stuff that would just be here for like 430 00:21:07,520 --> 00:21:09,360 8 months, nine months. That was the plan. 431 00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:12,280 And actually then then saying you've got some cash back, come 432 00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:14,160 spend it. It suddenly created this 433 00:21:14,160 --> 00:21:16,360 relationship where it's like, I bought from you and you're 434 00:21:16,360 --> 00:21:18,360 giving me something back. And actually the thing you give 435 00:21:18,360 --> 00:21:20,880 me back, I can now come and spend and I had, I think it's 436 00:21:20,880 --> 00:21:23,440 £12 cash back. And yes, I spent about 70 lbs on 437 00:21:23,440 --> 00:21:26,320 my next transaction. But now I have that relationship 438 00:21:26,320 --> 00:21:27,760 with like, as soon as I made that transaction, like, well, 439 00:21:27,760 --> 00:21:28,640 how much cash back have I got now? 440 00:21:29,120 --> 00:21:31,360 And it was like suddenly I, that engagement with the brand 441 00:21:31,360 --> 00:21:34,320 suddenly increased. But that's their, their model, 442 00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:37,040 which I thought, I always think cash back's a nice way of doing 443 00:21:37,040 --> 00:21:40,400 discounts and loyalty without actually going here's 50% off 444 00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:42,360 because then you're like, well, I'm never buying a pizza from 445 00:21:42,360 --> 00:21:44,680 Domino's full price again, which I think they've got one of the 446 00:21:44,680 --> 00:21:46,440 worst models and they're just stuck in a loop. 447 00:21:46,440 --> 00:21:48,720 Now Domino's, they're same with a lot of pizza places. 448 00:21:49,040 --> 00:21:51,560 They're never going to get out of that, which has led to other 449 00:21:51,560 --> 00:21:53,520 more premium pizza places opening up and going. 450 00:21:53,840 --> 00:21:57,000 Our pizzas cost $30 a pizza and it's like, and they're never 451 00:21:57,000 --> 00:21:58,640 going to change and we never discount them, but they're 452 00:21:58,640 --> 00:22:01,480 delicious and it's painful enough paying that much for a 453 00:22:01,480 --> 00:22:04,000 pizza that people go, well, it must be good pizza and then 454 00:22:04,040 --> 00:22:06,360 therefore enjoy it more. So I think I think you're right, 455 00:22:06,360 --> 00:22:10,200 that whole kind of brands clout is really, really important. 456 00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:13,040 I just want to give a quick shout out to our sponsors Yost. 457 00:22:13,120 --> 00:22:15,240 They are the go to tool for getting your content SEO ready 458 00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:18,000 and Google loved from keywords to readability and those all 459 00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:19,960 important meta tags, which I know a lot about. 460 00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:22,720 Yost makes it easy. Right now, our listeners can get 461 00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:26,560 15% off all WordPress purchases if you use the Yost plug in and 462 00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:29,440 WordPress and also on monthly Shopify plans. 463 00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:35,120 For your first six months, just use the code WWS 15 S WWS 15 at 464 00:22:35,120 --> 00:22:38,960 checkout@yost.com. That's WWS 1550% off for better 465 00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:40,960 visibility, more clicks, and a healthier website. 466 00:22:41,160 --> 00:22:44,240 Let Yost handle the SEO so you can focus on what you do best. 467 00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:47,360 Now back to the show. Let's talk about something else 468 00:22:47,360 --> 00:22:50,120 with AI then. How much do you guys use AI? 469 00:22:50,120 --> 00:22:52,280 We spoke about images. How much do you use it for other 470 00:22:52,280 --> 00:22:55,600 types of content like text specifically? 471 00:22:55,840 --> 00:23:03,080 So text specifically is we use it a lot for, you know, subject 472 00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:14,440 line ideas a lot for things like getting started with, OK, why do 473 00:23:14,480 --> 00:23:17,520 you use this type of product? And, you know, kind of the, you 474 00:23:17,520 --> 00:23:20,840 know, the shorthand for getting that article started for 475 00:23:20,840 --> 00:23:23,480 actually writing like whole pieces. 476 00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:27,800 Because we're in such a niche, there isn't actually a lot of 477 00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:32,200 content about it about specifically designed for our 478 00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:34,720 customers, talking about the products that we sell. 479 00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:38,160 So there's, you know, a million pieces about mascara, but 480 00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:40,960 specifically like mascara for, you know, women in our 481 00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:44,600 demographic much less so. So because of that, the quality 482 00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:48,320 of the the on it from a text point of view isn't always 483 00:23:48,320 --> 00:23:50,640 great. But what we can do is take, you 484 00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:53,680 know, well, here are the, you know, 3 reasons why you need the 485 00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:56,480 right mascara, you know, from ChatGPT. 486 00:23:56,600 --> 00:24:00,240 But then we can take it and we can then make it appropriate to 487 00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:03,800 our demographic and the specific things that they have about it. 488 00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:07,400 So, but yeah, for things like, you know, subject line ideas, 489 00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:10,760 it's like, I'll use it being like, you know, my CRM team will 490 00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:13,040 send me an e-mail and I'm like, I don't like this subject line, 491 00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:15,920 but I don't want to spend 5 minutes thinking about it. 492 00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:19,120 I'll just be like, you know, give me 10, you know, subject 493 00:24:19,120 --> 00:24:22,160 line ideas about free lipstick and like would OK, that's, you 494 00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:23,440 know. And ignore the one with the word 495 00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:26,280 elevator and I think that got voted like AI word of the year 496 00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:29,640 so far 2025 is the word elevate. You see that it's like it's 497 00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:32,720 ChatGPT and then people who like using that word, sorry guys, 498 00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:34,680 you're stuffed. You cannot use that word anymore 499 00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:35,920 but. Absolutely. 500 00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:38,600 So yeah, think things like that, ideas and getting started. 501 00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:42,880 It's really brilliant for whole, complete, finished content. 502 00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:46,520 It's just the fact that we're in a niche where that content is 503 00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:48,440 lacking, which is why we're creating it. 504 00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:51,200 It doesn't necessarily have the stuff out there, but I think 505 00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:56,680 from a broader content creation point of view, it's, you know, 506 00:24:56,680 --> 00:24:59,640 really interesting. And I think particularly one of 507 00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:03,480 the things that YouTube has recently launched around these 508 00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:05,480 are the videos we think they should be making. 509 00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:08,760 Is is going to be massively useful to us. 510 00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:11,480 And yeah, so some of the suggestions are just, no, 511 00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:15,440 that's, you know, rubbish. But there's some real gold in 512 00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:19,200 there because they're looking at what sort of videos are, are 513 00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:24,120 other people who watch your videos watching And it's really, 514 00:25:24,120 --> 00:25:26,200 that is really helpful. And that's something that we, 515 00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:29,200 you know, it's comparatively new and we're already really leaning 516 00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:33,240 into because it's that coming up with what should we create? 517 00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:36,400 And is it, you know, is it going to work? 518 00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:38,800 Because that's the nature of content creation is you're 519 00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:40,520 creating loads of things and some of it's going to work 520 00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:43,280 better than others. Having that insight about what 521 00:25:43,280 --> 00:25:47,200 you might be missing that could be really successful is really 522 00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:48,920 helpful. Yeah, yeah. 523 00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:51,440 And I love that it's almost using it for the research phase, 524 00:25:51,440 --> 00:25:53,640 isn't it? And I think we, we use AIA lot 525 00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:56,160 here for number crunching. And the good thing about number 526 00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:58,960 crunching is it can't lie. But we also still still use the 527 00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:01,680 spreadsheet and do a couple of sums and go, is it right? 528 00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:04,160 Yes, great, let's all move on because we have had some 529 00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:06,520 scenarios where it's not right and then we've gone back and 530 00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:09,280 gone, hang on a minute is use the different, I don't know, a 531 00:26:09,280 --> 00:26:11,800 sales channel source for example, when it's switched to 532 00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:13,000 round for the same piece of data. 533 00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:15,520 And it's like, no, no, no, I'm trying to compare those two and 534 00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:17,320 you've given me the opposite of what's correct. 535 00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:19,000 So got to be a little bit careful. 536 00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:21,160 But that research phase of, you know, what are the hottest 537 00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:23,680 topics right now? The YouTube one's really 538 00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:26,400 interesting because it did suggest that I made some make up 539 00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:28,200 videos for people in the e-commerce space. 540 00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:32,360 And I thought what on I was like, I couldn't I'm I'm not 541 00:26:32,360 --> 00:26:33,760 qualified for a lot of things in life. 542 00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:37,080 That's that's in the top 10. But again, what you're talking 543 00:26:37,120 --> 00:26:39,200 about, it goes back to what you said right at the start about 544 00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:41,200 we're in a niche. We know our target audience and 545 00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:42,640 there aren't many competitors to what we do. 546 00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:45,200 And when people find us, it's like, I never knew I needed 547 00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:47,640 this, but this is fantastic. This is exactly what I need. 548 00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:49,920 Which makes it difficult for a compass to come into that space 549 00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:52,440 because you are so ingrained in your foundation, so deep in that 550 00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:54,080 niche. Which as you say, when it comes 551 00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:56,640 to writing content, it's like, OK, we could talk about the same 552 00:26:56,640 --> 00:27:00,120 thing as everybody else with our niche captured on top. 553 00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:02,760 And actually, when you look at the demographics across the UK, 554 00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:06,840 25 plus, you've actually got a massive part of the UK anyway, 555 00:27:07,120 --> 00:27:09,800 which means it's a fantastic piece of marketing to say you're 556 00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:11,640 all in this niche and we've got something different that you 557 00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:14,600 will actually need that you won't find necessarily in boots. 558 00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:16,840 And I think it's a really, really powerful way of looking 559 00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:19,880 at it. How much do you guys use AI in 560 00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:23,080 terms of actual customers talking to AI like chat bots, 561 00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:26,520 customer service, e-mail responses, delivery fulfilment, 562 00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:28,640 all that sort of stuff? Has that come into play in that 563 00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:33,480 section of business? Yes is the short answer, though 564 00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:38,840 not in a massive, massive way for us because our entire 565 00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:43,920 philosophy around customer service is that we try to solve 566 00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:48,680 your problem upstream so you don't have to, you don't have to 567 00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:53,800 get in touch with us. So for example, we have a 568 00:27:53,920 --> 00:28:01,000 brilliant third party logistics partner and typically they will, 569 00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:04,560 if you place an order before about 4:00 today, they will ship 570 00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:07,480 it today. And that makes a massive 571 00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:12,360 difference in how likely you are to receive your order within the 572 00:28:12,360 --> 00:28:15,560 expected time frame. Because if, if you order today, 573 00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:18,520 we ship it today, you get the shipping confirmation, you're 574 00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:21,000 then tracking it. You know what, you know what's 575 00:28:21,120 --> 00:28:23,160 what's happening. So you're very unlikely to get 576 00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:27,200 in touch with US versus my experience as a consumer where 577 00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:29,160 you've ordered something and it's 3 days later and they 578 00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:31,320 haven't even shipped it yet. That's when you're getting in, 579 00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:34,160 getting in touch. So we we do a lot to solve 580 00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:37,160 upstream problems and a significant amount of our 581 00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:41,920 customer service is actually people wanting a one to one 582 00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:46,040 conversation with our customer service team who are women in 583 00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:50,640 their 60s and 70s about right, what product, what shade, like a 584 00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:54,680 really in depth conversation, an experience they wouldn't, you 585 00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:59,040 know, can't get on our website. But having said that, because we 586 00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:03,160 do have this, you know, UK based, you know, very, you know, 587 00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:06,520 kind of in depth team, we use chat bots for out of hours 588 00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:09,840 service. And you know, for all that 589 00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:13,920 that's that easy to answer questions, you know, that works 590 00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:18,640 really well for us. And we're the next stage of that 591 00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:22,720 is our like we've set up, you know, standard answers. 592 00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:27,520 But the next stage of that is that the software is now able to 593 00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:33,120 interrogate our website and get get answers without us having to 594 00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:37,480 have created canned responses, which I think is really useful 595 00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:41,400 because, you know, when our philosophy is a business is when 596 00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:44,800 somebody asks a question and we don't have the answer to it on 597 00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:47,000 the website, we try to then put it on the website. 598 00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:51,960 So in theory, chat bots, particularly for that easy to 599 00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:56,840 serve stuff, kind of fills that niche really well, which means 600 00:29:56,840 --> 00:30:00,600 that our team can focus on the stuff that they do really well, 601 00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:03,960 which is providing like really one to one personalized advice. 602 00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:07,320 One thing I love about just taking a step back for a second, 603 00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:10,200 Janice, I love talking to you on the show and my guests will 604 00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:12,600 recognise this. I have like 20 questions to 605 00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:14,720 every answer you give me that I could ask now. 606 00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:16,440 So I'm having to be so selective. 607 00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:19,360 What do I think the biggest opportunity for our audience is 608 00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:22,480 and for you guys listening at home to ask, I mean, some of the 609 00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:26,520 routes I could go down here from OK, that's fantastic SEO content 610 00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:30,360 connecting your customer service team and what people ask post 611 00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:32,880 order, pre-order. It's A to website content. 612 00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:36,400 I think the chat bot actually looking at in the AI box, 613 00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:39,120 looking at website content to answer questions means your 614 00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:40,480 website content has to be amazing. 615 00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:43,520 So no excuses, no stone unturned at this point. 616 00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:46,280 There are so many positives that comes out of this, but equally 617 00:30:46,280 --> 00:30:49,600 some of these things, I almost feel like you either have to do 618 00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:52,440 all of it like you guys do. You can't just do one or two 619 00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:55,720 things because otherwise there isn't the profit available at 620 00:30:55,720 --> 00:30:58,240 the bottom line of the PNL to cover the cost of these things. 621 00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:00,160 We have to do the whole process or nothing. 622 00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:03,480 We have to be an amazing, super lean, super tight operation 623 00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:06,440 because if one bit falls down, like say you get all of it 624 00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:09,640 right, but the customer service team aren't your target audience 625 00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:13,200 and can't give that advice, suddenly you need 20 or 30 times 626 00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:15,200 the amount of people in that team to answer those questions. 627 00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:16,720 The whole business model falls apart. 628 00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:19,360 Say, I just love the fact you got this well oiled machine all 629 00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:21,920 the way round. Just talking about the content 630 00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:24,600 for a second. So you use customer service to 631 00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:26,720 create some of that content to answer those questions and do 632 00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:28,640 all of this. I, I mentioned to you before we 633 00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:31,880 hit record that one of our clients, they are a client. 634 00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:33,200 They weren't a client when they did this. 635 00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:35,120 And then they came to us and said all our rankings are down. 636 00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:38,720 Why they use Google Translate to translate the whole site and 637 00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:41,040 then use AI to rewrite the UK as well. 638 00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:43,440 Launched it all. And then we're like, why does 639 00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:45,640 Google not like us anymore? And it's like you've actually 640 00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:49,080 used Google's own Gemini AI bot and you've used Google 641 00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:51,640 Translate. So Google knows it wrote all 642 00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:53,760 this content itself and then pumped it out there. 643 00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:58,280 By contrast, we, we almost with almost all clients now having 644 00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:02,280 tested this about a year ago, we rewrote a load of descriptions 645 00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:05,080 for some products and the categories or collections on 646 00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:08,560 Shopify those products are in. We rewrote them by hand and we 647 00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:12,160 did a bit of a mind map on each one, which is 2 ages just to go. 648 00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:14,960 We're just going to spend like a day and a half, just let's nail 649 00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:18,360 these 10 products in these two collections and let's get this 650 00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:21,520 really, really good. And we did that and we ranked 651 00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:24,600 number one for almost all of them overnight with lower domain 652 00:32:24,600 --> 00:32:28,040 authority, lower trust, lower history, lower clout with 653 00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:29,360 Google. We ranked number one overnight 654 00:32:29,360 --> 00:32:33,400 because we create a lot of organic unique content for those 655 00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:36,560 audiences saying if you're buying this particular product, 656 00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:39,400 we're going to make these three assumptions based on the names 657 00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:42,040 and locations of people that have bought this, looking at all 658 00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:44,320 the data, we call it data mining, did a bit of data mining 659 00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:45,680 on it. And when this is what we need to 660 00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:48,280 do for all of them, to which the business owner said, well, we're 661 00:32:48,280 --> 00:32:52,200 now making so much profit on those 10 products across those 662 00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:55,320 two categories that I can now hire a content writer. 663 00:32:55,520 --> 00:32:57,440 And we did the interviews with his agency. 664 00:32:57,520 --> 00:33:00,920 So we interviewed the person that is now joined going, this 665 00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:03,840 person's on brand, they get it, they're process driven, which 666 00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:06,120 means they can pump it all out. We can SEO it quickly and then 667 00:33:06,120 --> 00:33:08,720 it can go live on the sites. But also they are your target 668 00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:11,080 demographic, exactly the same as your customer service team. 669 00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:13,520 And again, it's, I think it's the third time of saying how 670 00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:16,040 ironic that in the world of AI on an episode about AI, we're 671 00:33:16,040 --> 00:33:18,840 like, do it manually, kids. This is the way to go. 672 00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:22,400 But it's just that quality is, I think it will slowly get better 673 00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:24,760 over time with AI. But you've got to remember AI is 674 00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:27,440 learning from us. So we need to be doing it first 675 00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:30,800 for the AI to understand what's going on. 676 00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:33,720 But I guess to kind of ask, sorry, go. 677 00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:36,120 On I was going to say and I think AI can speed that process 678 00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:39,520 up because you know, it's so much easier to get a first draft 679 00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:43,400 from AI, which you then refine, you know, so I think there is 680 00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:45,920 still a role to play rather than like, oh, it's got all got to be 681 00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:49,880 handcrafted from scratch. It's like no AI can give you the 682 00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:54,000 jumping off point, but then you can make it specific, yeah. 683 00:33:54,040 --> 00:33:55,880 Yeah, absolutely. And I think like I said earlier, 684 00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:59,040 that research piece as well when we we did it for a product that 685 00:33:59,040 --> 00:34:02,800 was for iPhone and we started with like the iPhone 15 going, 686 00:34:02,800 --> 00:34:05,280 it's a bit of an older one. We're not getting many sales at 687 00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:06,520 the moment. But I don't even know what the 688 00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:08,199 latest iPhone is or what I've got at the moment. 689 00:34:08,199 --> 00:34:10,520 But the 15 wasn't the latest is all I know. 690 00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:12,760 I used to be one of those like the Elevens coming out in 691 00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:16,280 September, I'm going to save my pennies and get one and they're 692 00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:17,600 all the same. Now apparently there's one this 693 00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:19,440 year is going to be different. I've seen actually seen some 694 00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:21,800 pictures of it from our clients. They make products for the 695 00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:24,159 iPhone and it does look very different this year. 696 00:34:24,159 --> 00:34:26,679 So spoiler alert, do you have a look at in September and see 697 00:34:26,679 --> 00:34:28,600 what the new iPhone looks like? If you're into into your 698 00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:30,600 iPhones, but just we did it with the 15th. 699 00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:32,960 It was an older model and was like the sales are quite low on 700 00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:34,440 it. People are buying later products 701 00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:36,360 now or maybe it's the 13 or something and people are buying 702 00:34:36,360 --> 00:34:38,400 later products. So there was nothing sort of 703 00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:41,239 lose from it. But we still used AI to say how 704 00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:43,000 many people. I mean, we can look at the 705 00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:46,440 keyword research, but how many people do you estimate still own 706 00:34:46,480 --> 00:34:49,320 this model of iPhone? How many are probably being sold 707 00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:50,719 every year? Like because Apple do release 708 00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:53,120 some statistics on it and AI just found it all instantly. 709 00:34:53,159 --> 00:34:54,920 And it was just like, we reckon there's this many. 710 00:34:54,920 --> 00:34:58,280 And I little tip, and I'm sure you guys this as well in your 711 00:34:58,280 --> 00:35:00,440 team, Janice, I always ask it for the source. 712 00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:01,880 Where did you get some information from? 713 00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:04,640 And that's one thing I do like about the Google AI results is 714 00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:07,560 it will have the like these two logos are where I got this data 715 00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:09,440 from. And you look and go Joe blogs, 716 00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:11,720 his blog about iPhones. I'm not trusting that. 717 00:35:11,720 --> 00:35:14,200 But actually, if it says Apple released the report through 718 00:35:14,200 --> 00:35:16,280 Gartner and here it is, you're like Gartner's a trusted 719 00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:17,560 resource and it's from Apple itself. 720 00:35:17,560 --> 00:35:20,760 So the Apple team have released the data on this, which is quite 721 00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:23,040 interesting. So, but also means when you're 722 00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:24,880 writing an article, you can actually use the sources. 723 00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:27,080 I don't know if you guys use that at all in your your team at 724 00:35:27,080 --> 00:35:29,200 the moment. Yeah, I think it. 725 00:35:29,720 --> 00:35:34,760 I think it is. It's really interesting and 726 00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:38,080 useful and helpful to be like, Oh yes, that's reliable and 727 00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:43,840 that's not and I think that is going to be the next facet of AI 728 00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:49,080 search is that it's all about the credibility, not just a what 729 00:35:49,080 --> 00:35:51,960 results were ranking highly, but what are the most credible 730 00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:54,320 results. So in increasingly that leaning 731 00:35:54,320 --> 00:35:57,960 into what you do and making yourself a credible source, and 732 00:35:57,960 --> 00:36:02,680 I think you know, we are and you know, we're doing a lot of 733 00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:07,720 interesting stuff around apertorial to give yourself the 734 00:36:07,720 --> 00:36:11,600 credibility. Like we aren't just talking 735 00:36:11,600 --> 00:36:14,600 about how to apply makeup for older women, but we're the most 736 00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:18,560 credible source of content about how to apply makeup for older 737 00:36:18,560 --> 00:36:23,480 women is is becoming increasingly important. 738 00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:28,240 So your credibility as a brand and the things that play into 739 00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:31,720 your credibility is going to be Google. 740 00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:35,280 You know, the AI search result is not just about, oh, can we 741 00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:37,880 answer this question? It's going to be what's the most 742 00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:40,120 authoritative answer to this question? 743 00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:44,320 Yeah, absolutely. And again, bringing it back to 744 00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:47,240 kind of where we almost started with this, that credibility then 745 00:36:47,240 --> 00:36:50,040 raises your profile as a brand on SEO. 746 00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:52,280 We always want to be the most credible source of everything 747 00:36:52,280 --> 00:36:54,200 because otherwise we're not going to rank #1 the most 748 00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:57,320 credible person is. And that's why I, I say this so 749 00:36:57,320 --> 00:36:58,720 often the podcast. But that's why sometimes you 750 00:36:58,720 --> 00:37:01,840 look at your competitors in #1 you're like, this website's 751 00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:03,760 awful. It's like, but it works. 752 00:37:03,760 --> 00:37:06,360 People buy from it, they trust it, they don't trust you, they 753 00:37:06,360 --> 00:37:08,080 don't buy from you, and you don't have the same authority. 754 00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:11,040 And so actually lots of big brands, that's why they do go 755 00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:15,320 for fairly boring websites. It's like 1 brand I absolutely 756 00:37:15,320 --> 00:37:17,760 love here in the UK just purely from their website point of view 757 00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:20,440 is Zara. Zara always have a look and feel 758 00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:22,680 on their site that feels a bit like their stores there. 759 00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:25,880 Everything's a little bit unique and that's what I and I, I've no 760 00:37:25,880 --> 00:37:27,280 idea what their brand positioning is. 761 00:37:27,560 --> 00:37:30,120 That's what I take from it and I think a lot of people would 762 00:37:30,120 --> 00:37:31,640 resonate with that. When you go into the store, it's 763 00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:34,520 like it's a T-shirt, but there's a slight difference to it. 764 00:37:34,560 --> 00:37:37,160 It's like, and their website is like it works normally. 765 00:37:37,160 --> 00:37:39,520 You can find everything and it looks like on a website, but 766 00:37:39,520 --> 00:37:41,640 there's a slight difference and desktop, I don't know if it's 767 00:37:41,640 --> 00:37:43,480 still there, but the NAV used to be on the left hand side rather 768 00:37:43,480 --> 00:37:46,120 than across the top, but it just still look like a normal NAV. 769 00:37:46,160 --> 00:37:48,040 So you're like, it's a normal NAV, but it's just in a 770 00:37:48,040 --> 00:37:50,320 different location, which is where they would put a pocket on 771 00:37:50,320 --> 00:37:52,280 a T-shirt in a slightly different location, like put at 772 00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:54,360 the bottom of the T-shirt rather than across the chest where 773 00:37:54,360 --> 00:37:56,000 you'd normally find a pocket on a T-shirt. 774 00:37:56,000 --> 00:37:58,840 And say, I think it's having that like you were saying about, 775 00:37:59,120 --> 00:38:02,160 about you guys having that brand positioning so locked down and 776 00:38:02,160 --> 00:38:05,600 so tight of going every we all do the same thing here, but this 777 00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:07,400 is where we niche. This is where we're different. 778 00:38:07,720 --> 00:38:10,200 And let's talk finally then about search. 779 00:38:10,200 --> 00:38:12,320 I know we've spoken about it quite a bit, but you guys are 780 00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:14,640 specifically doing a lot of work around search at the moment, 781 00:38:14,640 --> 00:38:16,360 aren't you? And as I mentioned, you search 782 00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:19,160 for a product, you get Google Shopping text ads into SEO. 783 00:38:19,360 --> 00:38:22,480 The AI snippets don't tend to appear on on products yet. 784 00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:25,000 How, how are you guys approaching? 785 00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:26,600 How are you getting featured in it? 786 00:38:26,600 --> 00:38:28,600 How are you approaching it? What's the focus internally of 787 00:38:28,920 --> 00:38:31,680 optimising that new space that is available to brands? 788 00:38:32,360 --> 00:38:39,000 Yes, I think we, because we've always had this really strong 789 00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:41,760 brand positioning, We've always been about content creation and 790 00:38:41,760 --> 00:38:45,800 all of those things. We really in the last year or so 791 00:38:46,000 --> 00:38:48,480 have suddenly been like, and I think particularly because the 792 00:38:48,480 --> 00:38:53,720 Google algorithm is really about helpful and useful content now 793 00:38:53,720 --> 00:38:55,560 and all of those things. So suddenly our rankings were 794 00:38:55,560 --> 00:38:58,360 rising like organically quite a lot. 795 00:38:58,360 --> 00:39:04,880 And I think we're much more conscious of, oh, actually all 796 00:39:04,880 --> 00:39:10,640 of these things that we weren't really thinking about play into 797 00:39:10,720 --> 00:39:12,200 SEO. Like one of the things that we 798 00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:16,480 were talking about just yesterday is that we've got some 799 00:39:16,480 --> 00:39:20,760 data on our PDP's about our shade. 800 00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:24,120 So we might have a like eyeshadow shade called Forest. 801 00:39:24,840 --> 00:39:28,920 Now Forest is dark green. So actually having somewhere on 802 00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:33,280 the page that says Forest dark green from an SEO perspective, 803 00:39:33,280 --> 00:39:34,960 there are lots of things like that that we're just like, oh, 804 00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:37,520 actually do you know what they're housekeeping things that 805 00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:41,320 are just really easy to forget to do when we launch a new shade 806 00:39:41,320 --> 00:39:44,280 being like, oh, actually, no, we've got to have this stuff 807 00:39:44,520 --> 00:39:48,160 internal linking. So actually being like, oh, when 808 00:39:48,160 --> 00:39:51,440 we're going to talk about this topic, you know, how to apply 809 00:39:51,440 --> 00:39:56,120 eyeliner, then you know, we should link to a related, you 810 00:39:56,120 --> 00:39:59,760 know, makeup, eye makeup tutorial and thinking about that 811 00:39:59,760 --> 00:40:03,680 kind of stuff. And I think particularly the 812 00:40:03,680 --> 00:40:10,080 idea that your organic social is going to play into your search 813 00:40:10,080 --> 00:40:12,280 rankings in LLM. So being consistent about what 814 00:40:12,280 --> 00:40:15,600 we say about our products, remembering to always be clear 815 00:40:15,600 --> 00:40:18,400 that we're about older women. I've just done a big piece of 816 00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:24,400 work in our Google Merchant Center, going in and adding. 817 00:40:25,360 --> 00:40:28,640 Not just the product description stuff that was pulling automatic 818 00:40:28,640 --> 00:40:32,040 for the website, but actually adding in all our brand 819 00:40:32,040 --> 00:40:35,520 positioning stuff. So that from a Google Shopping 820 00:40:35,520 --> 00:40:39,760 point of view, it's got that underlying metadata about this 821 00:40:39,760 --> 00:40:42,400 is a product specifically for older women and all of those 822 00:40:42,400 --> 00:40:44,720 things. Because one of the things as a 823 00:40:45,640 --> 00:40:49,640 shopper I have always found really frustrating about Google 824 00:40:49,640 --> 00:40:53,920 Shopping is if I show shop, if I search for a red dress, it will 825 00:40:53,920 --> 00:40:58,280 show me Primark and New York New Look and, you know, half a dozen 826 00:40:58,280 --> 00:41:02,040 brands I would never buy from. And I think it is going to 827 00:41:02,040 --> 00:41:04,360 become smarter and all of those things. 828 00:41:04,360 --> 00:41:09,560 So it's like, well, actually I don't want to rank for mascara. 829 00:41:09,560 --> 00:41:13,120 I don't want to appear in a Google Shopping search for 830 00:41:13,120 --> 00:41:16,680 mascara, but I do want to appear. 831 00:41:16,680 --> 00:41:19,800 If someone's searching for mascara for older women, then I 832 00:41:19,800 --> 00:41:21,760 want to appear. But if I'm not giving Google 833 00:41:21,760 --> 00:41:26,280 that data, then it's not going to know that about my product. 834 00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:31,680 So I think thinking a little bit more completely about all the 835 00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:35,200 things that we do and connecting them up and being consistent is 836 00:41:35,200 --> 00:41:37,440 really where we're focusing from an SEO perspective. 837 00:41:38,360 --> 00:41:40,360 Absolutely. And I mean, we, I was talking 838 00:41:40,360 --> 00:41:42,640 about it on our Tuesday episode earlier this week as well. 839 00:41:42,640 --> 00:41:45,640 Just the fact that we're putting things like bestseller at the 840 00:41:45,640 --> 00:41:49,680 beginning of an advert or a Google Shopping listing, we used 841 00:41:49,680 --> 00:41:52,840 to go very heavy and we and the data suggested it was its most 842 00:41:52,840 --> 00:41:54,560 effective way of doing it, of saying like, OK, this is a 843 00:41:54,560 --> 00:41:56,320 bottle of rose. So we're going to call it a 844 00:41:56,320 --> 00:41:58,640 bottle of rose. But actually when people see 845 00:41:58,640 --> 00:42:01,080 wine, if you take a step back and again, like you say, look at 846 00:42:01,080 --> 00:42:05,160 the bigger picture, red, white and rose or even amber wine, 847 00:42:05,160 --> 00:42:08,080 which I drank loads of that in Georgia, a few a few or last 848 00:42:08,080 --> 00:42:10,440 year and that was delicious. You can see the colour 849 00:42:10,440 --> 00:42:12,720 difference. Amber is like a orange colour. 850 00:42:12,720 --> 00:42:15,320 Roses are pink and got dark red and you've got and you've got 851 00:42:15,320 --> 00:42:19,000 almost almost transparent kind of yellowy colour for white 852 00:42:19,000 --> 00:42:19,480 wine. Fine. 853 00:42:19,840 --> 00:42:21,720 You can see the difference. So why would I say it? 854 00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:25,000 And actually, yeah, putting like 25 plus or something, or 50 plus 855 00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:27,760 in the beginning of that Google Shopping listing going, they've 856 00:42:27,760 --> 00:42:30,040 searched for mascara. It is a mascara. 857 00:42:30,040 --> 00:42:32,720 But let's emphasize the bit that they haven't searched for. 858 00:42:33,000 --> 00:42:34,840 The thing I find mad she's just highlighted. 859 00:42:34,840 --> 00:42:35,880 I've never even thought about this. 860 00:42:36,160 --> 00:42:37,480 Yeah. Why does Google serve? 861 00:42:37,480 --> 00:42:38,520 And I should know, this is Google. 862 00:42:38,720 --> 00:42:41,400 Why does it serve so many brands I don't care about, especially 863 00:42:41,400 --> 00:42:43,920 as it can see what I'm buying because I'm logged into Google 864 00:42:43,920 --> 00:42:45,440 and I use Google Mail for all my shopping. 865 00:42:45,880 --> 00:42:49,040 So it should know that when I'm searching for a shower gel, 866 00:42:49,040 --> 00:42:51,400 that's the one I always buy because I buy it from a brand 867 00:42:51,400 --> 00:42:53,240 online. It should know like that's the 868 00:42:53,240 --> 00:42:56,520 one to put first and foremost. But still, Boots come up all the 869 00:42:56,520 --> 00:42:58,440 time and I don't think I've ever bought a shower gel from Boots 870 00:42:58,440 --> 00:43:00,400 online. And it's like fine to show it 871 00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:02,680 every now and then, but like at least three of the listings for 872 00:43:02,680 --> 00:43:05,040 me will probably be Boots. I do shop at Boots a lot, but 873 00:43:05,040 --> 00:43:06,600 not for shower gel. So when I'm searching shower 874 00:43:06,600 --> 00:43:09,880 gel, it should put other stuff and I think it's it certainly 875 00:43:09,880 --> 00:43:12,320 one of the things that has changed recently that I'd 876 00:43:12,320 --> 00:43:15,160 recommend to you and to all brands is on P Max, especially 877 00:43:15,160 --> 00:43:18,880 as you can add negatives. Now the problem is you can't add 878 00:43:19,120 --> 00:43:21,560 a we still, we still call them positives because obviously 879 00:43:21,560 --> 00:43:23,080 you've got a negative keyword or a keyword. 880 00:43:23,080 --> 00:43:24,680 It's like, let's call it negative and positive. 881 00:43:24,880 --> 00:43:26,400 You can't add a positive keyword to it. 882 00:43:26,400 --> 00:43:28,600 You can put search themes and search terms in which I'm sure 883 00:43:28,600 --> 00:43:32,880 you guys do for, you know, 25 plus older women, women's makeup 884 00:43:32,880 --> 00:43:36,240 rather than girls or teenagers. So you can do that, but you 885 00:43:36,240 --> 00:43:38,920 can't, you can't necessarily say to it like I only target these 886 00:43:38,920 --> 00:43:40,800 guys. As you say, merchant centre, 887 00:43:40,800 --> 00:43:44,280 asset groups, search themes, audience targeting, target those 888 00:43:44,280 --> 00:43:46,240 groups and try and kind of pin it down. 889 00:43:46,480 --> 00:43:49,520 The thing always with P Max and, and I might get shocked for 890 00:43:49,520 --> 00:43:51,880 saying this, we actually have a poster in our office saying rule 891 00:43:51,880 --> 00:43:53,960 #1 is Google at evil thieving watsits. 892 00:43:54,520 --> 00:43:56,120 And what we mean is you put it's all working really well. 893 00:43:56,120 --> 00:43:58,080 So you put your budget up and suddenly like, why have my 894 00:43:58,080 --> 00:43:59,960 search terms gone from good to bad? 895 00:44:00,160 --> 00:44:02,400 It's not like they they're good with some bad ones now it's 896 00:44:02,560 --> 00:44:04,200 they've actually changed from good to bad. 897 00:44:04,200 --> 00:44:07,160 And we've seen budgets go up when you spend 2530% more 898 00:44:07,160 --> 00:44:10,400 suddenly and actually revenue drops, not as a percentage of 899 00:44:10,400 --> 00:44:12,080 spend, just Jay actually just drops. 900 00:44:12,080 --> 00:44:14,200 I was making 10 grand a day and now making 8. 901 00:44:14,520 --> 00:44:15,680 And it's like, OK, it's now changed. 902 00:44:15,680 --> 00:44:18,920 So again, it's all part of testing, refining, streamlining. 903 00:44:19,240 --> 00:44:22,120 I always imagine Google is just like this completely crazy 904 00:44:22,120 --> 00:44:24,160 animal. And the more you kind of tame it 905 00:44:24,160 --> 00:44:27,000 and, and let it run as fast as it wants, but down almost down a 906 00:44:27,000 --> 00:44:29,240 tightrope. Now we're making money from this 907 00:44:29,240 --> 00:44:31,160 thing. So that would be my advice for 908 00:44:31,160 --> 00:44:33,200 brands that are like, yeah, we need to knee sharp like you're 909 00:44:33,200 --> 00:44:35,160 talking about, Janice, but need to kind of close up. 910 00:44:35,160 --> 00:44:38,680 But I mean, I, I've written a page and a half of notes and 911 00:44:38,680 --> 00:44:41,120 questions to ask you, Janice. We've been going for 40 minutes. 912 00:44:41,480 --> 00:44:43,280 Is there anything else you guys use AI for? 913 00:44:43,280 --> 00:44:44,720 Any closing thoughts? Anything else? 914 00:44:44,720 --> 00:44:46,920 You're like, actually, this is the thing on our horizon that 915 00:44:46,920 --> 00:44:50,200 we're looking into next. I think the main thing is just 916 00:44:50,280 --> 00:44:53,320 creative variance. I mean, particularly with both 917 00:44:54,240 --> 00:44:57,680 metas, Advantage Plus Shopping and with P Max, just being able 918 00:44:57,680 --> 00:45:01,760 to say, oh, actually, you know, each of our products has a very 919 00:45:01,760 --> 00:45:05,480 specific benefit for a very specific use case. 920 00:45:05,480 --> 00:45:07,360 And being able to say, oh, actually, do you know what? 921 00:45:07,600 --> 00:45:11,360 We can produce creative volume that's really useful. 922 00:45:12,240 --> 00:45:15,000 Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And it's and as we said right at 923 00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:17,120 the start, and I think it's nice to close this as well. 924 00:45:17,560 --> 00:45:20,080 AI is really fun guys. But the basics are the basics. 925 00:45:20,080 --> 00:45:23,040 Be a good brand, sell a good product or you know, have an 926 00:45:23,040 --> 00:45:25,760 authority in the space, create good content, talk to your 927 00:45:25,760 --> 00:45:28,880 customers, build products and user journeys and marketing 928 00:45:28,880 --> 00:45:31,280 campaigns for them. But I mean, Janice, thank you so 929 00:45:31,280 --> 00:45:32,600 much. If anyone's like Janice, this 930 00:45:32,600 --> 00:45:34,960 brand sounds amazing. What's the website? 931 00:45:34,960 --> 00:45:36,680 How can people find you? How can people tune into your 932 00:45:36,680 --> 00:45:38,160 newsletters and that sort of thing? 933 00:45:38,440 --> 00:45:41,280 Yeah, we're lookfabulousforever.com and as 934 00:45:41,280 --> 00:45:44,720 you said, you can find me Janice Thomas on LinkedIn and I talk 935 00:45:44,720 --> 00:45:47,360 about various e-commerce related stuff. 936 00:45:48,400 --> 00:45:50,760 Amazing and I highly recommend following Janice. 937 00:45:50,960 --> 00:45:53,440 Janice, you come up, I think every 8th post on my LinkedIn 938 00:45:53,440 --> 00:45:55,400 feed. If you post like I'm at Magento 939 00:45:55,400 --> 00:45:58,040 conference and also Janice is on Magento, so please don't hate 940 00:45:58,040 --> 00:46:00,600 her for that. Like this is about e-commerce 941 00:46:00,600 --> 00:46:02,480 and Janice is a huge amount to add as I'm sure you guys saw 942 00:46:02,520 --> 00:46:04,240 today. But yeah, whenever you're at a 943 00:46:04,240 --> 00:46:06,120 Magento conference, you're always number one of my LinkedIn 944 00:46:06,120 --> 00:46:07,560 feeds. So do go and follow Janice. 945 00:46:07,560 --> 00:46:09,440 Go and check out the brand. Definitely subscribe to their 946 00:46:09,440 --> 00:46:11,880 emails guys, because we didn't work today, but the e-mail we've 947 00:46:11,920 --> 00:46:14,160 spoken about in the past, your e-mail is absolutely amazing. 948 00:46:14,160 --> 00:46:16,600 So thank you so much, Janice. Thank you for everyone for 949 00:46:16,600 --> 00:46:17,800 tuning in today. If you haven't already, hit 950 00:46:17,800 --> 00:46:19,720 subscribe button and leave us a review on whatever platform 951 00:46:19,720 --> 00:46:21,600 you're listening to. If you want to listen and watch 952 00:46:21,600 --> 00:46:25,240 us, we're on Spotify video now as much as YouTube video as 953 00:46:25,240 --> 00:46:26,240 well. If you want to come on the show, 954 00:46:26,240 --> 00:46:28,560 drop us an e-mail hello@winningwishop5.com and 955 00:46:28,560 --> 00:46:30,480 just say this is my brand. I'd love to come on and talk 956 00:46:30,480 --> 00:46:32,280 about X Something cool to do with your brand. 957 00:46:32,400 --> 00:46:34,200 Thanks for tuning in. We're back again on Tuesday. 958 00:46:34,200 --> 00:46:36,520 I'll be on holiday next week so I'll be recording from holiday. 959 00:46:36,720 --> 00:46:39,080 Hope you can join us on Tuesday for Tuesday tea break talks and 960 00:46:39,080 --> 00:46:40,680 we'll see you again next Friday. Thanks for tuning in. 961 00:46:41,160 --> 00:46:44,120 Sales tax is overwhelming. 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