1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:03,120 Today on the Winning with Shopify podcast, phone calls and 2 00:00:03,120 --> 00:00:05,400 agencies like this, new AI results appear. 3 00:00:05,400 --> 00:00:07,400 They've stolen my content, they've put that content on 4 00:00:07,400 --> 00:00:09,440 Google, and now they've pushed my results down. 5 00:00:09,440 --> 00:00:11,200 My traffic's dropping. And we basically said different, 6 00:00:11,200 --> 00:00:12,640 like we don't know what the solution is right now. 7 00:00:12,640 --> 00:00:14,920 No one does. You can't stop what's about to 8 00:00:14,920 --> 00:00:17,440 happen. We need to adapt to it and that 9 00:00:17,440 --> 00:00:19,040 changes. And yes, this is the most 10 00:00:19,040 --> 00:00:21,760 dramatic change in Search for a Generation I. 11 00:00:21,760 --> 00:00:23,680 Mean the fact you can have a conversation with your car now 12 00:00:23,680 --> 00:00:26,120 and ask how your car's doing in the morning because it's got AI 13 00:00:26,120 --> 00:00:27,640 built in or it's using your phone's AI. 14 00:00:27,640 --> 00:00:29,640 Something's amazing. So the first thing that you need 15 00:00:29,640 --> 00:00:32,119 to make sure that you do is on your homepage. 16 00:00:32,119 --> 00:00:37,440 You need to. Hello and welcome to another 17 00:00:37,440 --> 00:00:39,040 episode of Winning with Shopify Podcast. 18 00:00:39,040 --> 00:00:42,320 If it's your first time tuning in, what's an episode to start 19 00:00:42,320 --> 00:00:43,440 on if you're tuning in for a while? 20 00:00:43,640 --> 00:00:47,400 Today is an absolute banger of a show and that is a British term 21 00:00:47,400 --> 00:00:50,600 which means really, really good. We've got Yost on the show who 22 00:00:50,600 --> 00:00:53,960 are one of our new sponsors and I am honestly in fanboy mode as 23 00:00:53,960 --> 00:00:56,960 an SEO guy. We have an SEO app for Shopify 24 00:00:57,200 --> 00:01:00,200 on the show. Not only is an SEO app for 25 00:01:00,200 --> 00:01:04,879 Shopify, it is the most used plug in in the world on 26 00:01:04,879 --> 00:01:07,480 WordPress and has been for some time. 27 00:01:07,760 --> 00:01:09,880 And Caroline, who I'll introduce in a second, and her colleague 28 00:01:09,880 --> 00:01:14,080 Alex Caroline tells me it's as of the last time of checking if 29 00:01:14,080 --> 00:01:15,440 you want to use their Shopify app. 30 00:01:15,440 --> 00:01:17,480 They are giving you guys a nice little discount. 31 00:01:17,480 --> 00:01:21,280 WWS 15 is the code to use. It's in the description if you 32 00:01:21,280 --> 00:01:22,960 want to check it out there as well, and that will give you a 33 00:01:22,960 --> 00:01:25,600 little discount. It's all in uppercase WWS for 34 00:01:25,600 --> 00:01:29,240 winning with Shopify. WWS 15 is the code to go and 35 00:01:29,240 --> 00:01:30,600 use. We're going to be talking about 36 00:01:30,600 --> 00:01:33,680 SEOAI and a whole range of other things as we go through today, a 37 00:01:33,680 --> 00:01:35,680 combination of some things you can do with their app, but also 38 00:01:35,680 --> 00:01:37,520 what is going on in the world. First of all, we're going to 39 00:01:37,520 --> 00:01:39,600 come across to you, Carolyn, welcome to the show. 40 00:01:39,600 --> 00:01:41,760 Tell us a bit about your backgrounds, a bit about your 41 00:01:41,760 --> 00:01:44,480 role at Yost, and just a quick overview about host, which we're 42 00:01:44,480 --> 00:01:46,080 also going to talk about more as we go through today. 43 00:01:47,280 --> 00:01:49,800 OK, So my name is Carolyn Shelby. 44 00:01:49,800 --> 00:01:53,920 I'm a principal SEO at Yost. And what I do is I help guide 45 00:01:53,920 --> 00:01:57,240 the search strategies that go into the product. 46 00:01:57,600 --> 00:02:00,320 We power more than 13 million websites. 47 00:02:00,320 --> 00:02:03,280 So it's a big responsibility. It's a, it's a high honor. 48 00:02:04,680 --> 00:02:07,800 I, in addition to writing for the Yost blog, I write regularly 49 00:02:07,800 --> 00:02:11,000 for Search Engine Land and Search Engine Journal, and I 50 00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:14,520 speak all over the world at lots of different conferences. 51 00:02:14,520 --> 00:02:19,760 But I focus on how AI right now is reshaping what it means to be 52 00:02:19,760 --> 00:02:23,560 optimized. So I try to keep ahead of 53 00:02:23,560 --> 00:02:25,320 everything that's going on and make sure that we're 54 00:02:25,320 --> 00:02:27,440 incorporating that into the product. 55 00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:31,160 You know, I'm here to help everyone understand how search 56 00:02:31,160 --> 00:02:34,440 is evolving and how to make sure your brand evolves with it. 57 00:02:35,160 --> 00:02:36,200 Amazing. Well, thank you so much, 58 00:02:36,200 --> 00:02:37,680 Carolyn. And you've hit a trigger point 59 00:02:37,680 --> 00:02:39,880 about AI already. We are going to talk about AI 60 00:02:39,880 --> 00:02:43,120 everybody, So stay tuned. And I'm I'm I'm absolutely 61 00:02:43,880 --> 00:02:46,720 delighted to have you on the show, Carolyn, because Carolyn 62 00:02:46,720 --> 00:02:48,560 also mentioned and we'll come over to get your intro in a 63 00:02:48,560 --> 00:02:51,080 second, Alex, but Carolyn mentioned she beat Alex at a 64 00:02:51,080 --> 00:02:52,680 small competition they were having as The Who can get the 65 00:02:52,680 --> 00:02:54,640 most views on a single article last month. 66 00:02:54,640 --> 00:02:57,400 So congratulations Carolyn for everyone listening. 67 00:02:57,400 --> 00:02:59,800 He's like, what is this article? So many people read it. 68 00:03:00,280 --> 00:03:02,280 Search Engine Land. Sorry, sorry, Search Engine 69 00:03:02,280 --> 00:03:03,720 Journal. Search Engine Land is one of the 70 00:03:03,720 --> 00:03:05,480 other publications but Search Engine Journal. 71 00:03:05,640 --> 00:03:07,640 What was the article called if people want to go and check? 72 00:03:08,120 --> 00:03:11,640 It out. It's how LLMS interpret content 73 00:03:11,640 --> 00:03:15,360 structure and it's information for AI search. 74 00:03:15,360 --> 00:03:20,280 So it's how to structure your page basically to perform better 75 00:03:20,280 --> 00:03:26,520 in AI driven search and be ingested by the LLMS. Amazing, 76 00:03:26,520 --> 00:03:27,320 amazing. Thank you so much. 77 00:03:27,320 --> 00:03:29,160 I'm sure that's really relevant to so many of our listeners. 78 00:03:29,400 --> 00:03:31,800 And Alex, over to you then tell us a bit about your background 79 00:03:31,800 --> 00:03:33,840 and your role in in the host team as well. 80 00:03:34,240 --> 00:03:36,280 Sure, mines kind of the same but different. 81 00:03:36,680 --> 00:03:40,920 So hi I'm Alex, I'm calling from Manchester in the Uki have been 82 00:03:40,920 --> 00:03:44,720 doing SEO since before I knew what I was doing was SEOI was 83 00:03:44,720 --> 00:03:48,000 doing it as a teenager just playing around with HTML making 84 00:03:48,000 --> 00:03:51,420 websites. From there I kind of found CM s 85 00:03:51,420 --> 00:03:54,000 s and got into WordPress quite a bit ago. 86 00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:57,080 It was about 11 years ago, developed some plug insurance. 87 00:03:57,080 --> 00:04:01,040 They were acquired by different people, worked with Yost back in 88 00:04:01,040 --> 00:04:05,000 2012 on some of the stuff that's now in premium, which is a bit 89 00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:06,680 weird. It's kind of gone full circle. 90 00:04:06,920 --> 00:04:09,840 And my current role today is kind of the same issues as 91 00:04:09,840 --> 00:04:12,320 Carolyn. We, you know, kind of act as 92 00:04:12,320 --> 00:04:15,080 consultants for best practice that go into the product. 93 00:04:15,240 --> 00:04:18,120 We also come up with product innovation for the future to 94 00:04:18,120 --> 00:04:22,040 help with general site owners everywhere, helping them gain 95 00:04:22,040 --> 00:04:26,120 discoverability, which is kind of another post I wrote, which 96 00:04:26,120 --> 00:04:29,000 is in competition with Carolyn's this month in Search Engine 97 00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:32,800 Journal, which is from search to discovery and why SEO must 98 00:04:32,800 --> 00:04:36,200 evolve beyond just the search engine results page, which is 99 00:04:36,440 --> 00:04:40,680 what AI is doing right now. So yeah, that's kind of me in a 100 00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:43,240 nutshell. So what we could do, if I was 101 00:04:43,240 --> 00:04:45,360 being really mean, is I could say listen to this episode 102 00:04:45,360 --> 00:04:47,480 everyone and choose your favorite between Caroline and 103 00:04:47,480 --> 00:04:49,720 Alex and refresh their article 100 times. 104 00:04:49,960 --> 00:04:52,200 I won't say that it's worth checking out both of them for 105 00:04:52,200 --> 00:04:54,040 sure, but good luck to both of you with the with the 106 00:04:54,040 --> 00:04:55,000 competition. I've. 107 00:04:55,120 --> 00:04:58,600 Already won for April, Alex is going to win for May. 108 00:04:58,920 --> 00:05:02,040 OK, OK, well, that's that's both both of you guys are going to 109 00:05:02,040 --> 00:05:04,320 get a trophy, which is cool and and a little gift card. 110 00:05:04,320 --> 00:05:07,600 You told us as well you get as a as a reward, but it's so good to 111 00:05:07,600 --> 00:05:09,960 have you guys on the show. I should say as well that these 112 00:05:09,960 --> 00:05:13,360 guys Yoster sponsoring the show now and so as I as I just 113 00:05:13,360 --> 00:05:14,640 mentioned, there is a discount code. 114 00:05:14,640 --> 00:05:15,960 Go and check it out in the description guys. 115 00:05:15,960 --> 00:05:18,480 If you want to go and play with their tech, we will link to the 116 00:05:18,720 --> 00:05:20,960 downloads in the Shopify App Store as well. 117 00:05:21,280 --> 00:05:22,640 Any issues with that, reach out to us. 118 00:05:22,640 --> 00:05:26,600 Head over to the host website and it's Yost belt YOAST, which 119 00:05:26,600 --> 00:05:29,200 is like toast with a Y and it's named after the founder with a 120 00:05:29,200 --> 00:05:31,600 different spelling who we've also had on the show previously. 121 00:05:32,200 --> 00:05:33,720 Let's get into the content then, guys. 122 00:05:33,720 --> 00:05:35,800 So we're talking about SEO. We're going to talk a little bit 123 00:05:35,800 --> 00:05:37,800 about your rap about best practice. 124 00:05:37,800 --> 00:05:39,760 We're going to intertwine that a little bit with AI. 125 00:05:39,760 --> 00:05:41,880 But Caroline, I'm going to come across to you first and we're 126 00:05:41,880 --> 00:05:45,120 going to start with the kind of quite AI say a broad question 127 00:05:45,120 --> 00:05:48,320 for perhaps some of our more early Stage Stores or people 128 00:05:48,320 --> 00:05:51,440 that are like, OK, I know SEO is a thing, we've done it all, but 129 00:05:51,480 --> 00:05:53,480 actually they might pick up some good tips from this as well. 130 00:05:53,480 --> 00:05:55,680 So what are some of the essential SEO tips that every 131 00:05:55,680 --> 00:05:58,440 commerce store in a should be putting in place right now in 132 00:05:58,440 --> 00:06:01,600 their Shopify store? OK, so the first thing that you 133 00:06:01,600 --> 00:06:05,000 need to make sure that you do is on your homepage you need to say 134 00:06:05,000 --> 00:06:10,320 the the name of your brand and clearly state the thing that you 135 00:06:10,320 --> 00:06:13,760 do high on the page in plain text. 136 00:06:14,040 --> 00:06:17,000 Because it doesn't matter how pretty your pictures are. 137 00:06:17,920 --> 00:06:21,160 Search engines are still primarily text based and the 138 00:06:21,160 --> 00:06:25,400 LLMS that are now coming through and looking for things are very 139 00:06:25,400 --> 00:06:28,560 much text based. They need to know that they're 140 00:06:28,560 --> 00:06:30,800 in the right spot and if you don't tell them they're in the 141 00:06:30,800 --> 00:06:34,040 right spot, they won't know. So make sure that you say the 142 00:06:34,040 --> 00:06:36,160 name of the thing that you're trying to rank for. 143 00:06:36,760 --> 00:06:40,520 If you let's see in your descriptions on your product 144 00:06:40,520 --> 00:06:44,560 pages, make sure that you have all of the all of the things 145 00:06:44,560 --> 00:06:46,440 filled out. You need your alt text filled 146 00:06:46,440 --> 00:06:48,320 out. You need your descriptions 147 00:06:48,320 --> 00:06:51,400 filled out. You need all of those things to 148 00:06:51,400 --> 00:06:53,160 have your keywords in them as well. 149 00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:56,520 Again, you have to say the name of the thing that you want to 150 00:06:56,520 --> 00:06:58,080 rank for. You cannot have a picture of a 151 00:06:58,080 --> 00:07:00,800 shoe and then call it everything other than a shoe. 152 00:07:01,320 --> 00:07:05,800 You can't say look at how great this is because just like with 153 00:07:05,920 --> 00:07:08,800 audio right now, you don't know what I'm talking about. 154 00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:11,080 Just because there's a picture of it doesn't mean that 155 00:07:11,080 --> 00:07:13,000 everything is going to understand that that's what 156 00:07:13,000 --> 00:07:15,920 you're speaking about. I've seen sites where they they 157 00:07:15,920 --> 00:07:18,520 literally sell shoes and they don't say shoes on the page. 158 00:07:18,880 --> 00:07:21,720 They call them every other thing, but if the thing people 159 00:07:21,720 --> 00:07:24,800 are searching for is the word shoes, you have to say that. 160 00:07:26,800 --> 00:07:30,120 Make sure you fill out all your all the things that can be 161 00:07:30,120 --> 00:07:33,400 configured in whatever it is you're using, you know, Shopify, 162 00:07:33,400 --> 00:07:35,600 Woo commerce, Make sure you fill them out. 163 00:07:35,600 --> 00:07:38,760 Don't leave stuff undone because you don't know what to put 164 00:07:38,760 --> 00:07:40,120 there. Find out what to put there. 165 00:07:40,760 --> 00:07:43,760 Have good structure. And then of course, you need to 166 00:07:43,760 --> 00:07:46,600 have your your schema done properly, especially your 167 00:07:46,600 --> 00:07:51,320 product schema for, you know, for your e-commerce sites, 168 00:07:51,320 --> 00:07:53,560 product schema is tremendously important. 169 00:07:54,600 --> 00:07:56,760 You know, Google uses it for their carousel. 170 00:07:58,440 --> 00:08:00,360 Alex, there's so many different things that product schema is 171 00:08:00,360 --> 00:08:01,960 used for. Can you help me out here? 172 00:08:02,200 --> 00:08:03,440 Sure you can. Sure I can. 173 00:08:03,440 --> 00:08:05,320 SO products. So for anyone who doesn't know, 174 00:08:05,320 --> 00:08:07,880 schema is a type of structured data. 175 00:08:07,880 --> 00:08:10,760 It helps search engines interpret entities. 176 00:08:10,760 --> 00:08:13,800 And when I say entity, I say the word apple. 177 00:08:13,920 --> 00:08:17,120 And you can think of either the fruit or the tech company. 178 00:08:17,280 --> 00:08:21,520 And search engines from just reading the word apple, don't 179 00:08:21,520 --> 00:08:23,120 understand that and they need to understand that. 180 00:08:23,320 --> 00:08:26,280 So like Carolyn was saying before, if you don't say that 181 00:08:26,280 --> 00:08:29,080 you're selling a shoe, but you are selling a shoe, how does the 182 00:08:29,080 --> 00:08:31,760 search engine know that that product is a shoe? 183 00:08:32,400 --> 00:08:35,039 And whilst you need to be as detailed as possible and 184 00:08:35,039 --> 00:08:38,280 populate as much as possible in the different areas, don't get, 185 00:08:38,520 --> 00:08:41,159 don't go over optimized, don't go over detail. 186 00:08:41,400 --> 00:08:44,560 Be detailed, but also be concise and to the point and actually 187 00:08:44,560 --> 00:08:48,760 describe what that thing is. I usually tell people not to be 188 00:08:48,760 --> 00:08:52,840 ham handed where it's kind of like, I don't know if that's a 189 00:08:52,840 --> 00:08:55,160 phrase most people know, but it's basically like you don't 190 00:08:55,160 --> 00:08:57,280 want to club people over the head with the fact that you're 191 00:08:57,280 --> 00:08:59,800 selling a shoe. And you'll know if you read it 192 00:08:59,800 --> 00:09:04,360 out loud to yourself if it sounds bad, like look at this 193 00:09:04,360 --> 00:09:06,040 shoe. The shoe is blue, the shoe is 194 00:09:06,040 --> 00:09:07,760 red. The shoe comes in eight sizes. 195 00:09:07,760 --> 00:09:10,120 This shoe comes in size 1. The shoe comes in size 2. 196 00:09:10,320 --> 00:09:12,440 Like that's obvious. You're saying shoe too much. 197 00:09:12,520 --> 00:09:17,640 Let's you couldn't clear without being dumb. 198 00:09:18,240 --> 00:09:20,440 I think the icing on the cake with the shoe example as well as 199 00:09:20,440 --> 00:09:22,560 if every mention of the word shoe linked back to your shoe 200 00:09:22,560 --> 00:09:23,960 collection. Oh. 201 00:09:24,360 --> 00:09:26,800 My gosh, you can absolutely. A lot of sites underlink, I 202 00:09:26,840 --> 00:09:29,160 would say internal linking, but you can overlink in that content 203 00:09:29,160 --> 00:09:31,800 at the same time, can't you? Well, when you're doing internal 204 00:09:31,800 --> 00:09:35,720 links too per page, you don't need more than one link to a 205 00:09:35,760 --> 00:09:37,560 given destination. This is going to get really 206 00:09:37,560 --> 00:09:40,040 technical really quick. Of course it is. 207 00:09:41,080 --> 00:09:45,440 The they only, they only give credit to the first link they 208 00:09:45,440 --> 00:09:47,400 encounter to a given destination page. 209 00:09:47,400 --> 00:09:51,440 So if you link to the same destination page, let's say your 210 00:09:51,440 --> 00:09:55,640 shoe collection, five times, it only passes juice once. 211 00:09:56,840 --> 00:09:59,840 But every time you create the link, you're subdividing the 212 00:09:59,840 --> 00:10:03,840 amount of value that page is going to transfer by each link 213 00:10:03,840 --> 00:10:06,680 you create. So you're lessening the value 214 00:10:06,680 --> 00:10:10,440 that that first link is passing, which is easier to explain when 215 00:10:10,440 --> 00:10:14,480 I have a whiteboard. We use the phrase juice a lot 216 00:10:14,480 --> 00:10:15,840 because that's it explains quite well. 217 00:10:15,840 --> 00:10:18,840 If a cup's got 100% of the water and you've got one link, all 218 00:10:18,840 --> 00:10:20,800 that water's moving to second cup, isn't it? 219 00:10:21,080 --> 00:10:24,480 Whereas if you have 4 different links, then you've only got 25% 220 00:10:24,480 --> 00:10:26,760 of the water going to each of those four other cups now, which 221 00:10:26,760 --> 00:10:29,360 means the other cups aren't filling up as much and say that. 222 00:10:30,120 --> 00:10:31,680 Was. All my work, those cups. 223 00:10:31,720 --> 00:10:34,840 Go to the same destination page. Really only one of the cups is 224 00:10:34,840 --> 00:10:36,800 going to get emptied and the other three just get dumped on 225 00:10:36,800 --> 00:10:37,600 the floor. Yeah. 226 00:10:38,200 --> 00:10:39,640 Yeah, which you don't want to do. 227 00:10:39,640 --> 00:10:41,360 It's a waste of water. We're trying to protect water in 228 00:10:41,360 --> 00:10:42,200 the world. At the moment so. 229 00:10:42,840 --> 00:10:45,560 Please don't wastewater, people. So I think it's a, it's a good 230 00:10:45,560 --> 00:10:47,480 way of explaining it. And I think I love what you say 231 00:10:47,480 --> 00:10:50,120 as well about product schema. I think with a lot of Shopify 232 00:10:50,120 --> 00:10:52,200 themes, they try to make product schema quite easy. 233 00:10:52,600 --> 00:10:54,480 But then actually when someone like myself comes along and 234 00:10:54,480 --> 00:10:56,640 starts looking at Rich Snippet Checker on Google, which is a 235 00:10:56,640 --> 00:10:58,760 fantastic tool if you want to check that out, it shows you 236 00:10:58,760 --> 00:11:00,680 what Google is actually finding on the page. 237 00:11:01,080 --> 00:11:02,880 You can also copy and paste code into it. 238 00:11:02,880 --> 00:11:05,080 So if you're going to change the code, you can copy and paste 239 00:11:05,080 --> 00:11:07,120 what the code should look like and then work on your store to 240 00:11:07,120 --> 00:11:08,560 make it look and function like that. 241 00:11:09,040 --> 00:11:11,840 But we come along and there's a few things we always find that 242 00:11:11,840 --> 00:11:13,880 are sticking out. You mentioned it, Carolyn. 243 00:11:13,880 --> 00:11:16,000 We're going to get technical and I wasn't planning to bring this 244 00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:16,760 up. And now we're talking about 245 00:11:16,760 --> 00:11:19,240 schema, and I'm going to throw this one at you, Alex, about 246 00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:22,200 product schema. Aggregate review rating is 247 00:11:22,200 --> 00:11:25,360 something that is always red or amber in the Rich Snippet 248 00:11:25,360 --> 00:11:27,160 Checker. Should people care? 249 00:11:27,200 --> 00:11:28,960 How do they fix it? Should they fix it? 250 00:11:29,640 --> 00:11:32,920 It depends as which is our best answer, right? 251 00:11:32,920 --> 00:11:34,840 Of course it is. But I mean, if you have a 252 00:11:34,840 --> 00:11:38,320 product with 0 reviews from customers, then you're going to 253 00:11:38,320 --> 00:11:40,760 have a missing review in the rating. 254 00:11:41,560 --> 00:11:43,880 That doesn't mean that there's something wrong, but it may from 255 00:11:43,880 --> 00:11:46,640 a marketing point of view. You know, if you've got 100 256 00:11:46,640 --> 00:11:48,480 people who've bought that product, perhaps you do want to 257 00:11:48,480 --> 00:11:51,280 populate some of those reviews and minimize the amount of 258 00:11:51,280 --> 00:11:52,640 errors. I wouldn't say it's mission 259 00:11:52,640 --> 00:11:57,880 critical, but what Google has attained has implied to people 260 00:11:57,880 --> 00:12:00,200 over last year is that third party perspectives matter. 261 00:12:00,520 --> 00:12:03,360 And here for store owners and Shopify store owners, their 262 00:12:03,360 --> 00:12:05,480 customers is that third party perspective. 263 00:12:05,760 --> 00:12:08,880 And that's even more important. And the more, the more objective 264 00:12:08,880 --> 00:12:13,520 opinion you can get, the better for both search engines and LLMS 265 00:12:13,520 --> 00:12:16,360 to interpret what that product is from other people. 266 00:12:16,640 --> 00:12:19,720 And you can't just say replace that with and you know, here's 267 00:12:19,760 --> 00:12:22,640 our review of it, like an editorial review or a store 268 00:12:22,640 --> 00:12:26,240 owner review, because there may be that there may be like a 269 00:12:26,240 --> 00:12:29,440 hidden agenda for that store owner to sell more or sell less 270 00:12:29,440 --> 00:12:32,000 because maybe there's a profit margin that's great on that one 271 00:12:32,000 --> 00:12:33,640 product. Of course you're going to maybe 272 00:12:33,640 --> 00:12:36,120 pump that, but don't, don't do it unnaturally. 273 00:12:36,680 --> 00:12:40,440 But yeah, product schema can be. It was a big snowball I've spent 274 00:12:40,440 --> 00:12:42,840 about 3 months talking about. And we use shoes. 275 00:12:42,840 --> 00:12:46,080 Actually, I use shoes as the great example because when 276 00:12:46,080 --> 00:12:49,840 product schema and product variants came out, and I know 277 00:12:49,840 --> 00:12:52,160 that Shopify's done a lot with variants, that's really, really 278 00:12:52,160 --> 00:12:54,480 good. But when it comes to Google's 279 00:12:54,480 --> 00:12:58,280 interpretation, they support about 6 different properties. 280 00:12:58,280 --> 00:13:03,160 One of them is like size, suggested gender, suggested age. 281 00:13:03,360 --> 00:13:05,840 You've got material, right? And color. 282 00:13:05,840 --> 00:13:10,040 So the last two I think are the you can go in every single 283 00:13:10,040 --> 00:13:12,200 direction. What's the color of a shoe? 284 00:13:12,200 --> 00:13:16,680 If the shoe is more than two colors, what is the material of 285 00:13:16,680 --> 00:13:18,920 the shoe? If it's both leather and rubber 286 00:13:18,920 --> 00:13:22,000 sole, what is? Yeah, yeah. 287 00:13:22,280 --> 00:13:25,800 Multi colour and mixed media. Yeah, with the colours as well, 288 00:13:25,800 --> 00:13:28,200 when they come back and say this colour is olive and we're like 289 00:13:28,440 --> 00:13:30,440 olive's not a keyword, the keyword is green. 290 00:13:31,200 --> 00:13:33,560 You call it green. But back exactly back to your 291 00:13:33,560 --> 00:13:36,000 first point, Carolyn, actually of like if you're selling shoes, 292 00:13:36,080 --> 00:13:39,120 say that you're selling shoes and if they're green, say they 293 00:13:39,120 --> 00:13:41,280 are green shoes don't go over to over the top. 294 00:13:41,280 --> 00:13:43,600 But that I think that's a good example of where the basics need 295 00:13:43,600 --> 00:13:45,400 to come in. And actually we've, yeah, we've 296 00:13:45,400 --> 00:13:47,000 had so many clients that have these beautiful. 297 00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:49,360 They spent so much money on branding agencies getting all 298 00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:51,640 their colour names all sorted. And we're like, it's red, it's 299 00:13:51,640 --> 00:13:54,440 blue, it's green, it's yellow. And that's what. 300 00:13:54,600 --> 00:13:56,680 And that's the problem. That's the problem with branding 301 00:13:56,680 --> 00:13:58,720 it, with branding in general, isn't it, Carolyn? 302 00:13:58,720 --> 00:14:01,320 Like you can, I mean, I went on a site the other day. 303 00:14:01,520 --> 00:14:03,920 It was just a random professional services site, 304 00:14:03,960 --> 00:14:05,480 right? And I was like, what do they do? 305 00:14:05,880 --> 00:14:08,680 And so I was like on the homepage, scrolled, read a bunch 306 00:14:08,680 --> 00:14:10,480 of stuff. I'm like, what do you do, 307 00:14:10,480 --> 00:14:12,360 though? And then I went on the What We 308 00:14:12,360 --> 00:14:14,000 do page. And guess what? 309 00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:16,400 They didn't answer on that page what they did. 310 00:14:17,320 --> 00:14:20,040 Yeah, it was it was like, oh, we're one of those innovative 311 00:14:20,120 --> 00:14:21,840 companies that are the cutting edge. 312 00:14:23,200 --> 00:14:24,800 Exactly. It's blah, blah, blah, blah, 313 00:14:24,800 --> 00:14:25,480 blah. But what? 314 00:14:25,480 --> 00:14:28,880 It isn't as concise, no. So what else can you say about 315 00:14:28,880 --> 00:14:31,960 the, the colours, though? You can pay a lot of money for 316 00:14:31,960 --> 00:14:35,120 your fancy colours and you can still use your fancy colours, 317 00:14:35,120 --> 00:14:38,800 but you need to make sure that you, you can say, and it comes 318 00:14:38,800 --> 00:14:42,920 in a lovely shade of olive, which is a, you know, an earthy 319 00:14:42,920 --> 00:14:45,000 green. Like you can describe it and 320 00:14:45,000 --> 00:14:48,640 then use the actual color name or you can call it green and say 321 00:14:48,640 --> 00:14:51,680 it's an earthy olive shade or something like that. 322 00:14:51,680 --> 00:14:53,920 So you can still use those colors. 323 00:14:54,360 --> 00:14:56,280 You just have to make sure that you explain it. 324 00:14:56,320 --> 00:14:58,880 It's like it. I did a lot of work in the 325 00:14:58,880 --> 00:15:02,320 medical field. There are a lot of conditions 326 00:15:02,320 --> 00:15:06,320 and, and sicknesses that have common names that we use. 327 00:15:06,560 --> 00:15:10,520 But then doctors and journals like to use very formal clinical 328 00:15:10,520 --> 00:15:12,480 names. People don't search for 329 00:15:12,480 --> 00:15:15,120 influenza type A unless they've been diagnosed with it. 330 00:15:15,600 --> 00:15:17,400 Usually people search for the flu. 331 00:15:17,840 --> 00:15:21,600 So you have to make sure that you use both variants in the 332 00:15:21,600 --> 00:15:24,480 text on the page to make sure that you're getting picked up 333 00:15:24,480 --> 00:15:26,800 for those searches. And actually use. 334 00:15:27,360 --> 00:15:30,200 I was going. To say with it, I'm a big fan of 335 00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:32,160 the US office. I always mention this probably 336 00:15:32,160 --> 00:15:34,480 on a daily basis. I use the Michael Scott question 337 00:15:34,480 --> 00:15:39,040 of explain this to me like I'm a 5 year old and and it actually 338 00:15:39,040 --> 00:15:41,920 is true. Like we can use olive as a great 339 00:15:41,920 --> 00:15:43,920 example. Unless you have a good 340 00:15:43,920 --> 00:15:48,680 understanding at five of the spectrum of colours, that child 341 00:15:48,680 --> 00:15:50,760 will not know that olive is a colour. 342 00:15:50,760 --> 00:15:54,080 They'll just think of the entity of, you know, an olive to eat 343 00:15:54,480 --> 00:15:57,160 and that's it. But here it's a green shoe. 344 00:15:57,560 --> 00:16:00,720 It's a green shoe, but it's a different type of green that but 345 00:16:00,720 --> 00:16:02,600 that isn't relevant to the five year old. 346 00:16:02,640 --> 00:16:05,960 All they all they care about is that it's it's a form of green 347 00:16:05,960 --> 00:16:09,160 and therefore it's corner. Of martini olive, Duh. 348 00:16:09,160 --> 00:16:12,040 Every five year old is that. Everyone right? 349 00:16:12,040 --> 00:16:13,880 I have a 5 year old nephew. I will ask him. 350 00:16:15,880 --> 00:16:17,760 I may have had a very different upbringing, but. 351 00:16:19,160 --> 00:16:21,200 The thing I was going to add though, Alex, which I think I 352 00:16:21,200 --> 00:16:23,720 think plays perfectly, I thought you guys have both said is if 353 00:16:23,720 --> 00:16:25,800 you start then bringing this into keyword research and 354 00:16:25,800 --> 00:16:28,600 saying, right, actually, if there's way more searches for 355 00:16:28,600 --> 00:16:30,640 green than olive, but olive still has a significant amount 356 00:16:30,640 --> 00:16:33,800 of searches and low competition. There's a discussion to be had 357 00:16:33,800 --> 00:16:36,360 here and almost looking in the mirror and saying we're a really 358 00:16:36,360 --> 00:16:38,400 big global brand. So we're going to go after both 359 00:16:38,800 --> 00:16:40,520 our actually like we're a growing brand. 360 00:16:40,520 --> 00:16:42,880 So we're going to go off to the harder 1 green or actually we're 361 00:16:42,880 --> 00:16:44,720 a small niche brand and we plan to stay like that for a very 362 00:16:44,720 --> 00:16:47,480 long time or we're not going to grow in the near future. 363 00:16:47,480 --> 00:16:50,360 So niche keywords, actually, we can be much more competitive on 364 00:16:50,360 --> 00:16:52,960 those little olive terms. You know, someone's looking for 365 00:16:52,960 --> 00:16:55,320 a scarlet trainer, which is obviously a type of red. 366 00:16:55,320 --> 00:16:57,600 Well, I'd say obviously, I mean somebody else, it might be a 367 00:16:57,600 --> 00:16:59,600 different colour, but if someone's looking as you know, 368 00:16:59,600 --> 00:17:03,120 scarlet trainers or scarlet red trainers have search volume less 369 00:17:03,120 --> 00:17:04,560 than red, but way less competition. 370 00:17:04,560 --> 00:17:07,000 That's also a, a good way to go down. 371 00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:09,240 But what we're discussing here is the do's and don'ts, which is 372 00:17:09,240 --> 00:17:11,520 the next point on my list. So I don't know which one of you 373 00:17:11,520 --> 00:17:13,520 guys wants to start on this, but beyond some of the things we've 374 00:17:13,520 --> 00:17:15,200 mentioned already, what are some of the do's and don'ts? 375 00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:18,400 You see brands already doing some of the immediate like, Oh 376 00:17:18,400 --> 00:17:21,640 my gosh, another company's done that numpty's or some of the 377 00:17:21,640 --> 00:17:23,599 things you're like good brands, they're doing well, they're 378 00:17:23,599 --> 00:17:26,319 doing this at the moment. Oh, can I go with the don't? 379 00:17:26,920 --> 00:17:28,040 Yeah, you can go with the don't, OK. 380 00:17:28,520 --> 00:17:31,920 One thing that I've seen people do is there's been some SEO 381 00:17:31,920 --> 00:17:37,960 guidance that you should know index your category pages, which 382 00:17:38,080 --> 00:17:43,720 I mean you can view I guess if you want, but most websites use 383 00:17:43,720 --> 00:17:46,000 those category pages for navigation. 384 00:17:47,080 --> 00:17:51,440 If you know index a page that you're using for navigation, 385 00:17:53,680 --> 00:17:56,600 Google can't crawl to the things that are on that page. 386 00:17:57,640 --> 00:18:01,000 Like you're you're stopping Google from crawling the site, 387 00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:03,560 you're stopping the crawlers from crawling, which means the 388 00:18:03,560 --> 00:18:06,160 stuff that's on there is not going to get indexed. 389 00:18:06,960 --> 00:18:11,080 I would strongly recommend against this and I understand I 390 00:18:11,920 --> 00:18:16,480 conceptually I understand why it it's being advised, but on most 391 00:18:16,480 --> 00:18:20,680 sites, for the size of most sites, it is a patently bad idea 392 00:18:20,680 --> 00:18:22,600 and I would not do that. I agree. 393 00:18:23,600 --> 00:18:25,520 Yeah. I was just going to say 394 00:18:25,520 --> 00:18:27,880 collections are normally the thing we are gung ho as an 395 00:18:27,880 --> 00:18:29,840 agency optimizing to try and get traffic to. 396 00:18:29,840 --> 00:18:32,120 Because if I'm looking for some red shoes and we've got 8 pairs 397 00:18:32,120 --> 00:18:34,040 of them, a category is where I want you to land. 398 00:18:34,040 --> 00:18:35,680 So you can choose the pair that's right for you with your 399 00:18:35,680 --> 00:18:37,960 filters and everything else. That's where I want you. 400 00:18:37,960 --> 00:18:40,160 So if, you know, index that page, it's like, well, Google's 401 00:18:40,160 --> 00:18:43,360 got to decide amongst the 8 which one to show versus someone 402 00:18:43,360 --> 00:18:45,480 who's got a nice category of filters, which is a better user 403 00:18:45,480 --> 00:18:47,040 experience. Sorry, Alex, back to you. 404 00:18:47,040 --> 00:18:48,520 Yeah. Well, the same applies to like 405 00:18:48,520 --> 00:18:52,560 search the search internal search functionality of both 406 00:18:52,560 --> 00:18:57,000 WordPress and Shopify, where that in the past from a search 407 00:18:57,000 --> 00:18:59,960 engine point of view is disallow it by robots so that it doesn't 408 00:18:59,960 --> 00:19:01,240 crawl and have this endless thing. 409 00:19:01,400 --> 00:19:05,920 But that's no longer the case now that LLMS are, because LLMS 410 00:19:06,400 --> 00:19:09,080 act like humans in this process and actually go through the 411 00:19:09,080 --> 00:19:11,600 search and understand things. So while there's a bit of a 412 00:19:11,600 --> 00:19:15,720 debate, because Carolyn's making a face where, what would you do 413 00:19:15,720 --> 00:19:17,680 in this instance? And they're still up for grabs 414 00:19:17,680 --> 00:19:22,760 of what to do when it comes to machines crawling through sites, 415 00:19:22,760 --> 00:19:26,040 you still need to think about the human aspects of it. 416 00:19:26,280 --> 00:19:29,720 And whilst Google may say we're taking, well, they're not 417 00:19:29,720 --> 00:19:32,240 saying, but they're kind of taking the category page away. 418 00:19:32,520 --> 00:19:35,440 So if you want to think natively, yes, that's going to 419 00:19:35,440 --> 00:19:38,680 happen and concentrate more on product detail pages rather than 420 00:19:38,680 --> 00:19:43,240 category pages, that's fine. But as a user and as LLM start 421 00:19:43,280 --> 00:19:47,960 to ingest the site, not crawl a site, it's important for them to 422 00:19:47,960 --> 00:19:51,320 understand where to go and that includes navigation as well. 423 00:19:52,160 --> 00:19:54,000 So it's very important to do that. 424 00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:56,360 And of course the human element, that's what I do. 425 00:19:56,360 --> 00:19:59,280 If I'm searching for shoes, I go onto the home page and then I 426 00:19:59,280 --> 00:20:01,360 navigate. But maybe that's because I'm an 427 00:20:01,400 --> 00:20:04,800 SEO and I don't think I'm. I think we we weren't. 428 00:20:04,800 --> 00:20:07,160 Differently, I think the three of us are a different breed of 429 00:20:07,520 --> 00:20:09,240 of searcher. And just before you jump in 430 00:20:09,240 --> 00:20:10,240 caring. So I want to hear your thoughts 431 00:20:10,240 --> 00:20:11,600 on this. Just to say, guys, if you're 432 00:20:11,760 --> 00:20:13,080 going like Alex, what are you talking about? 433 00:20:13,080 --> 00:20:14,800 The internal search? That's the search bar on your 434 00:20:14,800 --> 00:20:16,720 website. And the reason it's infinite or 435 00:20:16,720 --> 00:20:19,320 in the old days was infinite is because there's no limit to how 436 00:20:19,320 --> 00:20:21,880 many different combinations of letters, numbers, symbols, stuff 437 00:20:21,880 --> 00:20:23,720 you could put in that to bring up search results. 438 00:20:23,720 --> 00:20:25,840 And of course, when Google's calling a site, anything that's 439 00:20:25,840 --> 00:20:28,640 endless is just Google going loads of server capacity for no 440 00:20:28,640 --> 00:20:30,800 result and it's just endless and keep going. 441 00:20:30,800 --> 00:20:33,960 So Google would then stop crawling a site, but hence why 442 00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:35,720 Google's now crawling like a person. 443 00:20:35,720 --> 00:20:37,840 So actually sites such as part of the UX part of the usability. 444 00:20:37,840 --> 00:20:41,200 But Carolyn, we saw your face. I'd be interested to hear your 445 00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:43,240 thoughts on this one as well because I'm on the fence. 446 00:20:43,240 --> 00:20:45,400 If I'm honest, I'm probably I might be between you 2 on this. 447 00:20:46,200 --> 00:20:50,640 I don't know that the LLMS act like that necessarily, Alex. 448 00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:52,840 So that that was the thing I was making the face about. 449 00:20:52,840 --> 00:20:55,800 The, the one thing I think that we should keep in mind when we 450 00:20:55,800 --> 00:21:00,560 think about writing for the LLMS is that anything that's not 451 00:21:00,560 --> 00:21:03,560 already in their training set, when they're hitting your 452 00:21:03,560 --> 00:21:06,600 website, they're hitting your website to answer a question 453 00:21:06,600 --> 00:21:09,720 that has just been asked. They'll land where they where 454 00:21:09,720 --> 00:21:11,600 they think they're closest. They'll look to see if the 455 00:21:11,600 --> 00:21:14,840 answer's right there and they might check a few other pages 456 00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:17,640 that link off of that particular page. 457 00:21:18,280 --> 00:21:20,720 But then they go back, they answer the question and they 458 00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:22,720 don't remember anything they saw. 459 00:21:23,360 --> 00:21:28,920 So everything that you're doing, you have to ensure that wherever 460 00:21:28,920 --> 00:21:31,360 they land, they can get the answer that they need. 461 00:21:31,640 --> 00:21:33,800 And they're not going to remember what they found. 462 00:21:33,800 --> 00:21:35,600 So you can't. It's not like we're going to 463 00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:39,200 train them to do things because that's not what's happening in 464 00:21:39,200 --> 00:21:41,520 their search process. They're going and getting the 465 00:21:41,520 --> 00:21:43,080 information and then they forget it. 466 00:21:43,360 --> 00:21:47,440 It's like going to IKEA and knowing that you need to get 467 00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:49,760 something from the warehouse, but having really no idea where 468 00:21:49,760 --> 00:21:51,680 it's at. But it's just a general guess. 469 00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:55,120 You'll wander, you'll wander to that area, you'll look around a 470 00:21:55,120 --> 00:21:57,000 little bit, you'll go and I can't find it. 471 00:21:57,000 --> 00:21:58,280 You'll go get a hot dog and you'll leave. 472 00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:06,640 Whereas if you're good about having things easy to find, 473 00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:09,960 there'll be somebody there with a sign that says, oh, that Billy 474 00:22:09,960 --> 00:22:12,640 bookcase you want. That's an aisle 6 bin 7. 475 00:22:13,720 --> 00:22:17,720 You know, you have to make sure that people can people, the LLMS 476 00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:21,880 can find what they need. Otherwise you're, you're not 477 00:22:21,880 --> 00:22:24,720 really optimizing for them. And they're, and they're not 478 00:22:24,720 --> 00:22:26,320 Google, they behave differently than Google. 479 00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:30,400 So now we've got this, this extra layer of complexity in, 480 00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:34,560 you know, factors to consider. Our partners at Saguna have 481 00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:37,800 released a brand new app for Shopify and it's called Shopify 482 00:22:37,800 --> 00:22:40,520 Connect 4 Canva. You can essentially look at all 483 00:22:40,520 --> 00:22:43,600 of your product images from Shopify directly in Canva and 484 00:22:43,600 --> 00:22:47,000 export them straight back. This can save you a lot of time. 485 00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:49,160 If you want to find out a bit more about this or go and find 486 00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:52,760 the app yourself, you can go to saguna.com/canva. 487 00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:55,680 Enjoy. So obviously one of the biggest 488 00:22:55,680 --> 00:22:57,760 challenges then we've got loads of phone calls and agencies like 489 00:22:57,960 --> 00:23:00,600 this, new AI results appeared, they've stolen my content, 490 00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:02,760 they've put that content on Google, and now they've pushed 491 00:23:02,760 --> 00:23:04,200 my results down, my traffic's dropping. 492 00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:05,880 And we basically said different, like we don't know what the 493 00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:07,400 solution is right now. No one does. 494 00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:09,680 But don't panic. Google's just trying it in the 495 00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:11,240 US. And then of course, before we 496 00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:14,120 knew it, Alex and I were going Google to Code UK going, Oh no, 497 00:23:14,160 --> 00:23:15,920 it's across the Atlantic, AI's here. 498 00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:17,520 And but it is working quite well. 499 00:23:17,520 --> 00:23:18,840 We're going to come on to that a little bit later. 500 00:23:19,080 --> 00:23:21,240 But when it comes back to like you said earlier, Carolyn, about 501 00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:23,520 filling out those boxes, Alex, you told us quite a bit about 502 00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:25,760 product schema. We had it tools like Yost and I 503 00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:27,000 know there's quite a few other tools out there. 504 00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:30,360 But Yost, obviously you guys are sitting in front of us and have 505 00:23:30,360 --> 00:23:32,600 an amazing piece of tech, hence why we've we've invited you guys 506 00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:34,920 on the sponsor. Tell us a bit about some of the 507 00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:38,640 things that an app like Yost should be doing for someone on 508 00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:40,160 Shopify, how much easier it can make. 509 00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:42,680 And that is a question to either of you guys, whoever wants to 510 00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:44,720 kick yourself. I'll, I'll take that. 511 00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:47,400 Yeah. So when Shopify has the variant 512 00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:49,760 stuff, I know that was introduced, was it last year in 513 00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:53,800 the additions? And what they do is they make it 514 00:23:53,800 --> 00:23:57,400 great for the user, the store owner to enter everything. 515 00:23:57,520 --> 00:24:00,080 And in the theme, it's great that it outputs everything. 516 00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:03,560 But from under the hood point of view, when it connects things 517 00:24:03,560 --> 00:24:06,680 from a structured data, it isn't there out-of-the-box. 518 00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:09,560 And that's what we've done in the host extension amongst other 519 00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:11,280 things. That's what I've been looking at 520 00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:14,320 in the last three months. So let's say for example, you do 521 00:24:14,320 --> 00:24:17,880 have that yellow shoe for children between 5:00 to 9:00 522 00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:20,520 and they're in these sizes and that's great. 523 00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:23,760 That's all fine time, but under the hood, it doesn't actually 524 00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:27,320 structure that in a way that a search engine will see. 525 00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:30,880 And it's actually very important that it understands that part of 526 00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:32,600 the entity. Otherwise it has to read and 527 00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:34,400 understand and process a little bit more. 528 00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:37,520 And while some may say maybe structured data might be 529 00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:41,600 becoming a little more less of a little less of a dependency for 530 00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:45,920 LLMS as they start to understand more, it's like saying it was 531 00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:47,720 kind of like what Carolyn did with IKEA. 532 00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:50,320 I usually say it's like giving someone a book with no 533 00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:54,840 punctuation or paragraphs and saying, find this quote and you 534 00:24:54,840 --> 00:24:58,160 just have to like understand the whole book, try and find the 535 00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:00,880 quote, understand its context and guess. 536 00:25:01,120 --> 00:25:03,600 And that's where more hallucinations come in. 537 00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:07,120 The less opportunity you give for an LLM to hallucinate, the 538 00:25:07,120 --> 00:25:09,720 less it will hallucinate. So that's what we've kind of 539 00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:13,200 done under the hood. So we've tied the variance that 540 00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:17,440 you have already entered into an output that is best practice for 541 00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:21,000 what things like Google Merchant Center, Search Console will 542 00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:23,320 interpret. And even this week, I know that 543 00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:27,600 Index now are now taking on product variance right into Bing 544 00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:30,080 as well, which is a very, very good thing that it supports 545 00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:32,000 that. And Microsoft are actually doing 546 00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:35,040 a lot of stuff that helps with structured data in general with 547 00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:39,120 the future of what maybe AI apps can provide for people and the 548 00:25:39,120 --> 00:25:42,440 way in which user and search behavior has changed completely. 549 00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:44,640 And it's like what you're saying about AIO and you've got your 550 00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:47,160 clients who are calling you going, what's happening to us? 551 00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:50,720 And part of them is like, it's not just happening to you, it's 552 00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:55,040 happening to everyone. Everyone there isn't, there 553 00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:58,880 isn't a safe vertical out there. If you want to define this as 554 00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:03,440 safety, which I don't believe it is because that's like now also 555 00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:07,360 comparing it to the staples of the world going, we need to stop 556 00:26:07,360 --> 00:26:09,920 the Internet because now people aren't going to use paper. 557 00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:12,640 You can't stop what's about to happen. 558 00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:15,160 We need to adapt to it. And that changes. 559 00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:18,120 And yes, this is the most dramatic change in search for a 560 00:26:18,120 --> 00:26:22,320 generation, I would say. And I think I saw an interview 561 00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:26,160 somewhere where someone said that AI they thought was on par 562 00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:29,840 with splitting of the atom in terms of yeah. 563 00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:33,920 And I would say you're going a bit, yeah, but but is it, is it 564 00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:37,400 actually that far fetched like you would say? 565 00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:39,920 I would say it's definitely the biggest thing since the 566 00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:42,440 Internet, right? That, that, that I can agree 567 00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:45,120 with because it's going to permeate every aspect of our 568 00:26:45,120 --> 00:26:47,840 life. But like splitting the atom and 569 00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:51,120 scientific breakthroughs, this is a different kind of, this 570 00:26:51,120 --> 00:26:53,840 isn't just a, hey, this Serps have changed and Oh no, my 571 00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:56,760 traffic's gone down. Like this is changing every 572 00:26:56,760 --> 00:26:59,600 aspect and it'll take 10 years at least for this to happen, but 573 00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:03,360 it is changing everything. Honestly, I feel like it's more 574 00:27:03,360 --> 00:27:08,440 industrial revolution and less, you know, nuclear age because we 575 00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:10,840 can get into the specifics, but we can talk about that later. 576 00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:12,720 I hear you, I hear you. I mean the fact you can have a 577 00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:15,040 conversation with your car now and ask how your car's doing in 578 00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:17,320 the morning because it's got AI built in or it's using your 579 00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:18,280 phones AI or something. It's. 580 00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:19,200 Amazing. I don't do that. 581 00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:23,720 I have, I have, I have old cars. I have old stupid cars, old 582 00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:26,880 stupid phones, old stupid TV's. I don't, I don't. 583 00:27:27,120 --> 00:27:29,800 I don't like things spying on me, especially on the car. 584 00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:33,960 Oh my gosh, I swear too much. I always joke when there's an AI 585 00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:36,320 note taker in a meeting. I'm always like, right, best 586 00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:38,160 behaviour, everybody, there's an AI note taker here. 587 00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:40,400 No swearing. And once I completely let RIP 588 00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:42,760 just to see what had happened and it didn't write any of my 589 00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:44,520 swear words down. It said Nick is feeling 590 00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:47,680 frustrated. I thought it was such a dumbed 591 00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:49,960 down version of me going, this is effing awful. 592 00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:52,120 Like, you know, really letting RIP just to see what it would 593 00:27:52,120 --> 00:27:55,440 come back with. But I love the way you've 594 00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:58,560 described that, Alex, with the this is, this is feeding the 595 00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:00,080 right information through to people. 596 00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:02,880 And one thing I will or two things I will say that just to 597 00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:05,480 reassure people 1 is that the AI search results don't appear 598 00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:08,040 generally on product searches. It tends to be more questions 599 00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:10,200 because you're trying to have a conversation with the search 600 00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:11,720 engines that AI is responding to that. 601 00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:13,480 How long that will last, we do not know. 602 00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:17,160 But Google shopping, Google ads, then into SEO, into product 603 00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:19,960 listings, Google free shopping, all those things are still 604 00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:22,280 coming up pretty prominent in most countries right now, which 605 00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:24,080 is interesting. I don't know if either of you 606 00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:26,760 guys I can see you both nodding. So if either of you guys have 607 00:28:26,760 --> 00:28:28,880 got any thoughts or even predictions on this or or 608 00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:30,320 starting to see something change. 609 00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:34,120 Apps are coming. I mean, that's the short of it. 610 00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:41,160 The way what what that reminded me of was that with AI wants to 611 00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:43,920 quote your brand. If you've got if someone asks 612 00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:46,280 this question about a product that you carry because they'd 613 00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:50,320 rather get the information about your brand from you than from 614 00:28:50,320 --> 00:28:53,560 like Reddit or somewhere else. So if you have a product that 615 00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:59,760 has has or offers technical specifications or documentation 616 00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:05,200 or support those kinds of things, that's a great 617 00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:09,440 opportunity to get visibility for your brand in AI driven 618 00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:10,680 search. Because when people ask 619 00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:15,000 questions about something that is specific to your brand, so 620 00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:19,480 maybe not shoes necessarily, but something electronic, something 621 00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:23,960 like super automatic espresso makers, those get pretty damn 622 00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:27,600 technical. So that would be making sure 623 00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:31,080 that you have that stuff available and indexable as part 624 00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:36,000 of your shopping site will help increase the visibility that you 625 00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:39,440 have in all of this new AI driven search. 626 00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:41,960 Amazing. I, I almost feel like we should 627 00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:44,880 rename the whole episode and call it I won't because I think 628 00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:47,360 it's not a really good stuff there just purely AI for search 629 00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:49,640 because as you say, it is the biggest, the biggest thing going 630 00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:52,200 on at the moment. And with Alex, you've just 631 00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:54,040 shared an article in the chat while we're recording this, I'll 632 00:29:54,040 --> 00:29:55,160 put this in the description as well. 633 00:29:55,160 --> 00:29:57,280 Guys, do you want to just, I think I've read this article 634 00:29:57,280 --> 00:29:58,520 myself. Do you want to just summarize 635 00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:00,720 Alex what the article's about and why it's important? 636 00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:05,160 Yeah, So Google are expanding ads into AI overviews, meaning 637 00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:07,560 that they're now experimenting with it. 638 00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:09,960 And to me, if they're experimenting with it, that 639 00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:11,640 means you're about six months away from. 640 00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:13,760 Making lots of money from it, yeah. 641 00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:16,800 And that's the way that's what they need to do. 642 00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:20,040 These are platforms that monetize from advertising. 643 00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:23,880 So their main focus now is to how to do that. 644 00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:28,240 And fortunately for store owners such as Shopify owners out 645 00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:30,920 there, products are the strongest things to both have 646 00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:34,920 ads on and also have the best kind of data that outputs the 647 00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:38,680 most specific information about what those entities are. 648 00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:40,680 Again, if we go for shoes and we're just talking about 649 00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:43,520 something random and informational, which store 650 00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:47,040 owners are not in Shopify, this is where we actually start to 651 00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:51,240 benefit a bit more. And it's the open web publishing 652 00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:54,560 kind of thing that have a lot more to worry about when it 653 00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:57,520 comes to how they monetize their own businesses. 654 00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:01,360 So here if you're, if you want to search for what's the right, 655 00:31:01,640 --> 00:31:04,640 you know, shoe for me and my like, you just hope that the 656 00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:09,280 answer eventually brings up a shoe that's by your brand and 657 00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:12,560 therefore it can either use the ad or it can use an organic 658 00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:15,480 mention of what that is. So it needs to understand 659 00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:18,360 everything about that. And that's where AI overviews 660 00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:20,680 are going to kind of be beneficial for everyone. 661 00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:24,440 And when Carolyn was talking about the way in which LLMS look 662 00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:29,360 at sites, Google have phrased it as a fan out approach. 663 00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:32,880 And you want to ensure that, you know, if you ask one question, 664 00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:34,800 it can go out into 10 different fans. 665 00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:37,560 And you know, that annoying thing when you do get a fan and 666 00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:39,880 one of the spokes or feathers is just gone. 667 00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:44,680 That's that's a good way of of kind of making this so well, you 668 00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:48,600 need to make sure that all all those spokes in the fan do work 669 00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:51,320 so that it can go in every direction and eventually lead to 670 00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:53,120 you. Well, you have to have those 671 00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:55,400 links on that page, which is what I was talking about. 672 00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:58,400 So it's coming into like a product page, right, to answer 673 00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:00,320 the question. And if you ask subsequent 674 00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:02,680 questions, it's going to fan out from where it landed. 675 00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:06,680 It's not going to go back to the top and start and start a new a 676 00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:08,200 new search. It's going to fan out from where 677 00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:10,480 it landed. So you need to make sure that 678 00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:13,680 there are that you've got supporting documentation and 679 00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:17,600 links to related products and all of those links easy to find 680 00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:22,040 on that on each landing page, assuming that that's going to be 681 00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:23,800 the starting point from the fan out. 682 00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:26,800 Absolutely. And I think this is the right 683 00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:30,520 moment to bring the whole world of SEO back to what I describe 684 00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:33,000 as just being a basic, doing the right things. 685 00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:35,920 E-commerce brands is when you're looking at that, what that 686 00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:39,680 fanning process of questions, content, buying guides, what's 687 00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:43,360 in fashion right now, size guys, delivery, it's it's almost 688 00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:45,080 endless of things you could talk about. 689 00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:48,320 And it's all comes back to who's my customer, what makes them 690 00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:50,000 tick? What are the things they needed 691 00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:52,560 to know, the barriers that I had to break down with my content, 692 00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:55,040 my brand, my imagery, my pricing, my products, etcetera, 693 00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:59,000 for them to make a purchase. And then you eventually land on 694 00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:02,360 what does the design of my product page therefore need to 695 00:33:02,360 --> 00:33:04,000 look like? And I think you made such a good 696 00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:06,360 point earlier as well, Carolyn, about if you have too many 697 00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:08,600 links, I say too many. The more links, it's not so many 698 00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:11,360 or not enough, but the more links you have, the less juices 699 00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:14,120 moving across to the next page. It's really important that 700 00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:17,600 instead of 1010 things on that on, on that fan, because then 701 00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:20,120 it's divided by 10. Actually, it might be like these 702 00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:23,040 are the three most important FAQs and then a single button to 703 00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:25,920 go and look at all my FAQs for all of my customers. 704 00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:29,360 And and again, think I would say to people think laterally about 705 00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:32,280 these things, like what's makes it what's makes the answer to an 706 00:33:32,280 --> 00:33:35,520 FAQ more powerful? A quote from a customer, a 707 00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:37,880 customer review, something to bring it to life, a video on it 708 00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:40,560 on an Instagram account. That's not yours to say. 709 00:33:40,800 --> 00:33:42,840 Here's one of our you know, what does your packaging look like? 710 00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:45,400 Here's one of our customers unboxing a product like that. 711 00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:47,200 They just sent us really powerful you. 712 00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:50,720 Know, I don't know if people who run stores are doing this 713 00:33:50,720 --> 00:33:54,280 regularly, but recording the questions that come into your 714 00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:56,560 customer service lines. Ask your customer, your 715 00:33:56,600 --> 00:34:00,600 frontline customer service people, and track what questions 716 00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:04,000 are people asking and what are the frequency of those questions 717 00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:06,600 and make sure that you're answering, providing answers to 718 00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:08,760 those. Anticipate the questions that 719 00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:12,080 are being asked and provide answers to them because people 720 00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:14,560 want to know and it's helping them make decisions. 721 00:34:15,159 --> 00:34:16,600 Yeah. And to answer and to answer 722 00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:19,360 that, the LLM which something I wrote about in the search 723 00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:23,920 engine, one which you'll have shared by now is I'm thinking of 724 00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:27,639 an LLM as a new audience. And, and here in this context, 725 00:34:27,639 --> 00:34:29,679 maybe think about an LLM as a personal shopper. 726 00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:32,920 You know, if, if I have a personal shopper, I want that 727 00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:37,120 personal shopper to have knowledge of, you know, products 728 00:34:37,120 --> 00:34:40,000 in general, but also have an understanding of the whole niche 729 00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:42,120 in general so that they can come to you with an informed 730 00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:44,480 decision. And at the moment we've got 731 00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:47,040 Google's native search, which is an answer engine. 732 00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:49,960 And now you're going into LLMS, which is an assistance engine. 733 00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:52,760 They're doing all of that research and investigation for 734 00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:54,800 you. So again, you have to be concise 735 00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:58,840 without going too off tangent with what you're describing by 736 00:34:59,240 --> 00:35:02,720 giving the personal shopper kind of, well, here's those bullet 737 00:35:02,720 --> 00:35:06,320 points and summaries of why this product is relevant to now bring 738 00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:10,720 back to the end user. I've literally used chachi PT to 739 00:35:10,760 --> 00:35:15,200 plan outfits and as a personal shopper and I could tell you a 740 00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:19,760 huge story about it, but it's, it was pretty neat. 741 00:35:20,240 --> 00:35:22,600 You know, I, I, I said this is a vibe I'm looking for. 742 00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:26,000 This is this is what the the message I want to convey with my 743 00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:29,680 outfit and my accessories. Which brands should I look at? 744 00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:32,280 And it went through and it found things and I said, well, what 745 00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:34,240 about this brand? And they're like, I don't know, 746 00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:36,760 what do you think? And I said, well, I think maybe 747 00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:39,080 it's giving a little bit of not what I want. 748 00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:42,840 Like you're so right. And it explained why I was 749 00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:45,600 right. And of course it thinks I'm 750 00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:47,960 right a lot, so I don't. Know whilst it's conversational, 751 00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:50,880 you're still typing this stuff right and you're reading its 752 00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:53,680 response. That's that's the beginning as 753 00:35:53,680 --> 00:35:57,640 soon as you get to voice interaction, you get it into you 754 00:35:57,640 --> 00:36:01,760 know the film her territory and where it can provide. 755 00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:04,720 It's not opinion, it's feedback knowing what your opinion of 756 00:36:04,720 --> 00:36:07,680 yourself is. So it's eventually should know 757 00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:10,720 what you think looks good on you, right. 758 00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:14,680 If you're talking about clothing and then after that it will so 759 00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:17,080 for me, I like slim fitting shirts, right? 760 00:36:17,200 --> 00:36:19,600 I don't like baggy shirts, I don't like short sleeve shirts. 761 00:36:19,840 --> 00:36:22,720 And it will no, it will learn that on the stand it and 762 00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:25,920 memorize it. And therefore, whilst it does 763 00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:29,680 take away things like short sleeve baggy shirts, it will 764 00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:33,360 show me what's more relevant. And the brand who's great slim 765 00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:35,720 fitting shirts is going to win out of this because they were 766 00:36:35,720 --> 00:36:39,160 concise in their product description to say that that's a 767 00:36:39,160 --> 00:36:41,360 slim fitting shirt that may also suit me. 768 00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:44,400 And then add those things with structured data, then provide me 769 00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:47,600 with the assistance that well, the LLM with the assistance that 770 00:36:47,600 --> 00:36:51,280 it needs to give me its informed decision on what it thinks I 771 00:36:51,280 --> 00:36:53,840 should be wearing. I did send Twister. 772 00:36:54,280 --> 00:36:55,760 Yeah, there's a lot. Then it was really good. 773 00:36:55,880 --> 00:36:58,240 Really, really good. Some good example though, as to 774 00:36:58,240 --> 00:37:00,760 why, like again, kind of combining the basics of like 775 00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:03,840 this is a slim fitting shirt for men in this size. 776 00:37:04,600 --> 00:37:06,880 Coupling that with all the things you've just described, 777 00:37:06,880 --> 00:37:08,720 Carolyn, of like it's for this occasion. 778 00:37:08,720 --> 00:37:12,360 It gives this message. I, I did on one AI agent upload 779 00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:16,160 a picture of myself head to toe and go, what message am I 780 00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:17,840 giving? And it thought I was a 781 00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:20,400 skateboarder and I thought I'm in my mid 30s. 782 00:37:20,720 --> 00:37:23,520 That's a recipe for breaking my neck going on a skateboard. 783 00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:26,720 But it did make me go, maybe I should get rid of the shorts and 784 00:37:26,720 --> 00:37:29,200 wear some trousers to work today and maybe some smarter shoes 785 00:37:29,640 --> 00:37:32,040 because that's not the vibe I want to give to my to my clients 786 00:37:32,040 --> 00:37:34,240 that I go to meet every day. But I found it fast, 787 00:37:34,320 --> 00:37:36,840 fascinating, almost like telling what you you did to ask it about 788 00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:39,680 the outfit on its head to go, what message am I giving? 789 00:37:40,560 --> 00:37:42,800 But it's fascinating. I think that the thing that AI 790 00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:45,240 is doing more and more now, certainly those chats, which is 791 00:37:45,240 --> 00:37:48,080 where SEO plays a massive part of this, is it's giving more 792 00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:50,560 source information that I'm finding relevant. 793 00:37:50,560 --> 00:37:52,920 I'm finding the, when you know, you can click on the source of 794 00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:55,560 its answer. I think users are using that 795 00:37:55,560 --> 00:37:56,960 more and more. And I wonder how long it's going 796 00:37:56,960 --> 00:37:58,920 to be before that kind of gets expanded. 797 00:37:58,920 --> 00:38:02,120 And ChatGPT is it's just it's a search engine you can talk to 798 00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:05,240 and that is how it functions. Obviously, it does a lot more 799 00:38:05,240 --> 00:38:08,080 that than that, but I think it's fascinating the way that it's 800 00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:11,840 using the sources by crawling sites and customers, as you say, 801 00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:14,800 are using it instead of a traditional search engine. 802 00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:18,920 Well, the nice thing about that too is even though you're 803 00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:22,840 getting fewer clicks in just raw traffic, the people that are 804 00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:26,280 taking the time to click through from those types of results are 805 00:38:26,560 --> 00:38:29,960 much more likely to actually be interested in buying from you 806 00:38:30,360 --> 00:38:34,720 because they already know that you've got the information that 807 00:38:34,720 --> 00:38:36,160 they want. You've got the product that they 808 00:38:36,160 --> 00:38:38,160 want because Chachi PT just told them. 809 00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:41,600 So now to complete the purchase, they're going to click through 810 00:38:41,840 --> 00:38:44,840 and buy something. So I think while your raw clicks 811 00:38:44,840 --> 00:38:47,960 and your traffic is going to go down, your conversions might go 812 00:38:47,960 --> 00:38:50,280 up. Your your engagement for sure is 813 00:38:50,280 --> 00:38:52,640 going to go up because I think you're getting better qualified 814 00:38:52,640 --> 00:38:55,600 leads. And then in the older SEO sites, 815 00:38:55,600 --> 00:38:58,880 this is like, this is basically a long tail strategy, right? 816 00:38:58,880 --> 00:39:01,800 This is this is this, this was what I remember of doing it 15 817 00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:04,880 years ago, short tail versus long tail and short tail brought 818 00:39:04,880 --> 00:39:07,320 in the visits, but didn't bring in the conversions. 819 00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:11,480 And I used to work for a car supermarket back in the day and 820 00:39:11,560 --> 00:39:14,880 my, and the CEO was like, I want to rank for used cars. 821 00:39:15,120 --> 00:39:18,120 And I was like, we can, it will take a long time and a resource. 822 00:39:18,120 --> 00:39:21,760 And when you're there, there won't be necessarily an output 823 00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:24,040 of sales that correlate with the output of visits. 824 00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:27,280 And lo and behold, six months later with third behind 825 00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:30,960 Autotrader and Wikipedia and then us and they're like 3 times 826 00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:33,080 as many visits, but conversions are going down. 827 00:39:33,080 --> 00:39:34,840 I'm like, well, no, your conversion rates are going down 828 00:39:34,840 --> 00:39:36,680 because you're getting the same conversions, but you're just 829 00:39:36,680 --> 00:39:40,280 getting more visits and used cars doesn't you can be, that's 830 00:39:40,280 --> 00:39:42,480 informational to me. That's informational intent. 831 00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:45,000 This is before you could even talk about intent, by the way. 832 00:39:45,240 --> 00:39:46,920 And there were just flat keywords. 833 00:39:47,120 --> 00:39:50,320 But actually I want to have AI want to buy used Honda in 834 00:39:50,320 --> 00:39:52,400 London. You know What Car they want and 835 00:39:52,400 --> 00:39:54,280 you know where they are. So serve them that more 836 00:39:54,280 --> 00:39:57,000 relevant. So it's kind of like that I feel 837 00:39:57,000 --> 00:39:59,560 now. But can I say on crack, you know 838 00:39:59,920 --> 00:40:02,400 that that's what it does, but it is what long tail is the new 839 00:40:02,400 --> 00:40:04,760 short tail. And now it's conversational 840 00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:07,640 search is. Essentially super long tail, 841 00:40:07,640 --> 00:40:11,200 super specific where the LLM goes out and gets the fan out 842 00:40:11,200 --> 00:40:13,480 technique, does the investigation and brings back 843 00:40:13,480 --> 00:40:17,040 such a specific high quality answer for you that everyone 844 00:40:17,040 --> 00:40:19,360 should be thanked that they don't get that visit soon. 845 00:40:19,360 --> 00:40:22,440 I think soon as it's a bit of far fetched maybe, but in five 846 00:40:22,440 --> 00:40:24,400 years people won't care as much as visits. 847 00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:26,040 It's just about the bottom line, right? 848 00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:29,480 That's what it should be. It's the bottom line and it's 849 00:40:29,560 --> 00:40:32,240 the, but it's the aggregators and the and the content 850 00:40:32,240 --> 00:40:35,520 publishers who are monetizing eyeballs that are that are going 851 00:40:35,520 --> 00:40:37,560 to be crying. And I think for e-commerce, this 852 00:40:37,560 --> 00:40:41,440 is a boon. It's the publishers that make 853 00:40:41,440 --> 00:40:46,320 money on CPMS that are probably going to experience an 854 00:40:46,320 --> 00:40:48,440 extinction event. That's a good point. 855 00:40:48,440 --> 00:40:50,760 Just coming back to your example, Alex, of used cars, I 856 00:40:50,760 --> 00:40:52,920 just want to make the point. I completely agree with you. 857 00:40:53,400 --> 00:40:55,240 I would say from your boss's point of view, it's a complete 858 00:40:55,240 --> 00:40:58,200 misunderstanding actually of the customer because you're 859 00:40:58,200 --> 00:40:59,640 absolutely right. The person who's going to buy a 860 00:40:59,640 --> 00:41:03,720 car does not just jump on the Internet and go used car and 861 00:41:03,720 --> 00:41:05,880 expect to go right. What's the first question? 862 00:41:05,880 --> 00:41:06,680 Color. OK, color. 863 00:41:06,880 --> 00:41:08,000 What's the next question? Brand? 864 00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:09,640 I don't know. Now what do we do? 865 00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:11,880 It's like people, as you say, they do their research, they 866 00:41:11,880 --> 00:41:15,040 might go on used car as AI just want to see a big range and 867 00:41:15,040 --> 00:41:17,520 start filtering down to go to on a convertible, how many doors, 868 00:41:17,520 --> 00:41:20,400 how many seats, what size engine, what engine sizes even 869 00:41:20,400 --> 00:41:21,480 mean? OK, forget that. 870 00:41:21,680 --> 00:41:23,320 Do this. I think it's a misunderstanding 871 00:41:23,520 --> 00:41:25,800 of the customer journey which comes back to you made such a 872 00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:27,800 good point earlier, Karen. I wanted to flag it, but we went 873 00:41:27,800 --> 00:41:30,320 on something else just about customer service teams feeding 874 00:41:30,320 --> 00:41:32,000 back. This is what people are asking. 875 00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:33,880 So that's what our content should be tackling. 876 00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:37,320 It's currently not doing it and it's the most expensive way of 877 00:41:37,320 --> 00:41:39,400 explaining something is have a human answer the phone or an 878 00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:41,320 e-mail. So actually we can do that with 879 00:41:41,320 --> 00:41:44,200 content on the sites. I've just seen the clock we're 880 00:41:44,200 --> 00:41:46,520 going to, we're going to wrap up and come in to land here. 881 00:41:46,520 --> 00:41:49,840 But last question and for either of you guys, if people are 882 00:41:49,840 --> 00:41:51,800 listening, going, wow, there's so much I need to do. 883 00:41:51,800 --> 00:41:53,880 I've learned a hell of a lot today and I've got a lot of 884 00:41:53,880 --> 00:41:55,360 things I need to go away and do now. 885 00:41:55,600 --> 00:41:58,800 Your app makes things easier. How can people find the app? 886 00:41:58,800 --> 00:42:01,040 What's it called? What's your website? 887 00:42:01,040 --> 00:42:03,200 How do they get hold of? Certainly your knowledge base 888 00:42:03,200 --> 00:42:05,480 and Information Centre for Yost is incredible. 889 00:42:05,520 --> 00:42:07,360 Give us some signposts that you're pointing at. 890 00:42:07,360 --> 00:42:08,920 Alex Carolyns. Alex, this one's for you. 891 00:42:09,160 --> 00:42:11,840 How can people, Yeah, how can people find out more and 892 00:42:11,880 --> 00:42:14,880 download the app? On yost.com, they're in the top 893 00:42:14,880 --> 00:42:17,560 NAV because we'd like people using the NAV. 894 00:42:17,600 --> 00:42:20,440 There's a Shopify selection there that you can go to. 895 00:42:20,800 --> 00:42:24,320 You can search for it within the marketplace as well and we're 896 00:42:24,320 --> 00:42:26,600 offering some discount as well, which I know you've provided 897 00:42:26,600 --> 00:42:28,600 somewhere. And there's lots and lots of 898 00:42:28,600 --> 00:42:32,760 resources insideyost.com about best practice for E com, best 899 00:42:32,760 --> 00:42:36,560 practice for shoppers, Shopify specifically as Acms, as well as 900 00:42:36,560 --> 00:42:40,160 lots of other random info like what we've been saying today. 901 00:42:40,160 --> 00:42:44,080 That may not always apply necessarily to a store owner, 902 00:42:44,320 --> 00:42:48,000 but store owners can adopt in their marketing strategies. 903 00:42:48,800 --> 00:42:52,400 That and you know, we're very engaging on on X Twitter, 904 00:42:52,400 --> 00:42:54,320 whatever you want to call it, however old you are. 905 00:42:54,920 --> 00:42:59,200 And and LinkedIn, which which is a very good place to be engaging 906 00:42:59,200 --> 00:43:01,040 with and get a good discussion on as well. 907 00:43:01,520 --> 00:43:03,400 And also reading our pieces as well. 908 00:43:03,400 --> 00:43:06,720 Because as you can see where we have our opinions right and we 909 00:43:06,720 --> 00:43:10,240 like to say what they are and provide them for people to 910 00:43:10,240 --> 00:43:12,680 interpret how they wish. So going on Search Engine 911 00:43:12,680 --> 00:43:15,480 Journal, Search Engine Land and looking for our articles is 912 00:43:15,480 --> 00:43:18,320 always a good thing to do. Yeah, there's a ton of 913 00:43:18,320 --> 00:43:20,800 information on the website and I I think we also have some 914 00:43:20,800 --> 00:43:23,080 training videos on our YouTube channel. 915 00:43:23,840 --> 00:43:26,200 But just make sure that you're checking our YouTube channel 916 00:43:26,200 --> 00:43:28,240 because there's a lot of people that are putting out a lot of 917 00:43:28,240 --> 00:43:31,600 Yost videos. But the Yost official channel 918 00:43:31,600 --> 00:43:34,600 would be a great resource for you if you're one of those 919 00:43:34,600 --> 00:43:36,600 people that likes to watch videos instead of read. 920 00:43:37,200 --> 00:43:38,800 Amazing. I'm definitely a visual learner, 921 00:43:38,800 --> 00:43:39,760 so that sounds like a place for me. 922 00:43:39,760 --> 00:43:41,960 I'm going to come to you first, Carolyn, thank you so much for 923 00:43:41,960 --> 00:43:42,960 your time. It's been great having on the 924 00:43:42,960 --> 00:43:43,880 show. So yeah, I really appreciate you 925 00:43:43,880 --> 00:43:45,080 joining us. I hope you've enjoyed today. 926 00:43:45,600 --> 00:43:46,520 It was wonderful. Thank you. 927 00:43:46,960 --> 00:43:48,160 Amazing. And same to you, Alex. 928 00:43:48,160 --> 00:43:49,720 Thank you so much for your time. Really appreciate it. 929 00:43:49,720 --> 00:43:51,680 And and always nice to have a fellow Brit on the show. 930 00:43:51,680 --> 00:43:52,680 I always feel like cheering. Next. 931 00:43:52,680 --> 00:43:56,040 We're a tiny island these days. We used to figure that's fine. 932 00:43:56,280 --> 00:43:57,960 We won't discuss that. So, Alex, thank you so much and 933 00:43:57,960 --> 00:43:59,200 great to see you. Yeah, great to have you on the 934 00:43:59,200 --> 00:44:00,280 show. Amazing. 935 00:44:00,280 --> 00:44:02,320 And for everybody listening at home, again, if you want to 936 00:44:02,320 --> 00:44:03,960 check out Yost, they are on our website. 937 00:44:03,960 --> 00:44:04,840 They'll be on lots of our emails. 938 00:44:04,840 --> 00:44:06,320 If you haven't signed up to our emails, go and sign up. 939 00:44:06,320 --> 00:44:08,520 And we would definitely have these guys back and potentially 940 00:44:08,520 --> 00:44:10,520 some other use cases as well. People using the app. 941 00:44:10,760 --> 00:44:12,640 There are some we haven't spoken about them today because I was 942 00:44:12,640 --> 00:44:14,360 told we're not not allowed to announce any of them. 943 00:44:14,360 --> 00:44:17,120 But there are product updates coming thick and fast from these 944 00:44:17,120 --> 00:44:18,400 guys. So they will definitely be back 945 00:44:18,680 --> 00:44:20,160 and we'll be sharing some things going on. 946 00:44:20,160 --> 00:44:22,040 And if you want to see an update, definitely reach out to 947 00:44:22,040 --> 00:44:24,360 these guys or there's a feature that's not there, reach out and 948 00:44:24,360 --> 00:44:26,440 ask because it's either there or they definitely want to hear 949 00:44:26,440 --> 00:44:28,120 from you. Thanks again to my guest. 950 00:44:28,120 --> 00:44:29,600 Thanks for tuning in. Hit subscribe button if you 951 00:44:29,600 --> 00:44:31,000 haven't ready and we'll see you again next week. 952 00:44:31,160 --> 00:44:31,920 Thanks for joining us.